LLC Board – Wolf Lake Congregation Meeting, December 7, 2019

Before we begin this discussion in opening prayer, I would like to give a heartfelt welcome to all of you that have come here this day. Let us pray. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, Almighty, Righteous God, our dear Heavenly Father, we have now assembled before your holy face and before your holy word.

We are thankful that through your Spirit you are still in our midst. Continue to reveal unto us your holy face and holy word. Give unto each of us your kingdom and all that you have prepared for us in your dear Son.

Offer this day counsel, guidance, so that love and unity and one-mindedness would be restored. Nourish, protect, and bear us in your grace. Give unto each one of us, dear Father. Hearing ears and receptive hearts, grant unto us love, patience, and forgiveness one to another.

Bless our gathering. Be with us this day for the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, and to the honor and glory of thy name. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

I won't. Take much time here. However, I thought it would be fruitful and good that we would go together to a few portions of God's Word for this purpose that each and every one of us, unfortunately, have not left our flesh and blood at the door.

We are all sinful and corrupt. So it's... So it's good to go to God's Word and to hear for ourselves what God wishes to tell us. And I ask you, when we go to these portions of God's Word,

that each and every one of us would not hear these words for someone else, but would ponder and consider and listen to these words of God for your own heart and for your own soul. Apostle Paul exhorted believers in his time, gave exhortation, instruction, comfort.

And I thought to read a portion that's found in his letter to the Colossians. And we will hear these words from the third chapter, beginning with the twelfth verse. Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, bowels of mercy,

kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering, forbearing one another, forgiving one another.

If any man have a quarrel against any, even as Christ has forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things,

put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called into one body, and be ye thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, and hymns,

and spiritual songs, singing with grace into your hearts unto the Lord. The Apostle John, whom we know as the Apostle of Love, speaks about this topic very much.

And again, I think it's good for us to stop and consider his words that he has recorded for us in his epistles. And again, I think it's good for us to stop and consider his words that he has recorded for us in his epistles.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God. And everyone that loveth is born of God,

and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us,

because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God,

but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be a propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us,

we ought to love one another. How does this love that the Apostle speaks about, how does it act? The Apostle Paul,

a very familiar portion unto us, speaks about this love from God. Charity suffereth long in his kind, charity envieth not,

charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own,

is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth,

beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

This love that is born of God, however, is not that type of love that looks through wrongdoing,

does not wish to rebuke in love, but as we heard, it rejoiceth not in iniquity, but in the truth.

This love of God wishes to get to the truth. Rebuke in and of itself, from the correct foundation, is love.

We wish to care for each other. This is what Jesus wishes for us today, that we would gather together with love one to another.

We would find comfort in instruction, reprove, rebuke from his holy word. But even before all of this, he wishes that each of us

could personally believe our own sins and faults and doubts were given. This is that love that Lord Jesus wishes to extend

unto each and every one of us. So perhaps we have come with many mixed feelings, our own flesh and blood, our own thoughts, so forth,

our own fears, our own worries, but we can set them aside. And at this very moment,

you can receive this gospel message into your own heart. Uplift your heart and believe all of your sins,

doubts, and worries forgiven. And we can comfortably live of this gospel. It can give us encouragement,

encouragement for this day, and it is our strength for our salvation. And we can very nicely discuss

with love, without fear, without trembling, and ask our dear Heavenly Father throughout the day to help us.

And this is what he wishes to do. Again, uplift your heart and believe. All sins forgiven, in Jesus' name and precious blood.

Well, good morning and God's peace. I think it's my prayer and the prayer of all of us here that we could have a good discussion

and that the issues that have been troubling us could be discussed openly, that there might be clarity, and if God wills,

there could be resolution to some of these issues. In preparation for today, I have had some correspondence

with Jim Frantti and Randy Herrala and Pat Lake and Joe Ouellette and discussed some housekeeping matters that I hope have been able to be shared

with the LLC Board and the congregation. But I will just touch on a couple of those briefly. The agenda, I believe there are some agenda copies in the back.

There are three topics primarily on the agenda, and the hope is that we could discuss each of these fully. And in turn,

so that we could have more of a dialogue. And if it takes more time, as it may, we can carry these discussions into,

and we should carry them into future meetings. And if there are, you're not hearing me very well. If there are other topics of discussion,

we should take note of those too, and those can be added to the list. There are a lot of us here today, and all have been welcome to come

and are free to come. One of the challenges that does present is to have a dialogue or discussion. You know, if all of us were to be here speaking

five or 10 minutes, we would be well into tomorrow. So from a practical perspective, it would be good if the members of the LLC Board

and the Wolf Lake congregation would speak first and allow that discussion to occur between them. And then that others would reserve their comments until that discussion has been able to make some headway

or we can at least hear from the congregation and the Board about the concerns that were the basis for us meeting today. I would say, too, also in the discussions,

if we can try to focus on each of these, because they are important, and I think the enemy has created a lot of confusion, and part of our hope here is that we could,

by addressing one and having a dialogue and not just a series of speeches, maybe we could come to an understanding on even some of the specifics that have been noted.

And the other challenge, of course, too, or the hope is that we could, with the discussion, keep it a discussion so that, you know, like we've seen in previous meetings

where someone speaks and four or five hours later we're hearing maybe an explanation of what we thought the concern was or a response to it, and I think that's been the source

of some of the mutual frustration, at least as far as what I've observed. I've also asked that, consistent with past meetings, there be an official recording of the meeting

and that that be made available, and Wolf Lake has indicated that they will do that today. So the first topic then comes from the... stems, I think, from the speeches

of members of Wolf Lake Board from the Monticello Board Members' Workshop, and that's been about eight months ago. In preparation, again, for this meeting,

I sent a transcript of those statements to Jim and to Randy and to Pat and Joe and asked that they share those with the congregation and the board

so we could refresh ourselves a little bit on what was said there and maybe gather our thoughts so that we can have a good discussion. on what concerns there were there.

So I think with that, again, it's my prayer and I think it is the prayer of all of us that we could have good and open discussion and ask that God would make clear

what these concerns are and hopefully bring resolution. Do we have a microphone floating around? So I think with that, we can open the discussion.

Jim. God's peace, everyone. It's good to be here, but at the same time, I have to say that

as we heard from our brother Phil, I come here dragging also this old portion and feeling personal weariness and lacking emptiness on my own part.

I ask at the beginning if I may believe my sins forgiven. I want to believe, and I come here also trusting

that all of you brothers and sisters who have come here have come for the same purpose that you also want to believe, that we have a mutual goal

that we want to get to heaven together, and we don't want to see anybody lost on the way. And I know we come here, all of us, with our own personal prayers,

I think that each of you has in your heart prayed that God would be here helping us today. And we are also remembered by many, many believers as we gather.

And I would reiterate something that we heard from the opening prayer from our brother Phil and comments. Actually, the portion of the Bible

that had come to my mind in coming here this morning was how Apostle Paul said, Paul writes to Timothy, and I often think about those words

in his first epistle to Timothy when he said that this is a faithful saying and it's worthy that all should accept it, that Jesus Christ came into this world

to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And Paul applied that to himself and it applies to each one of us here today,

that we are chief among sinners. And so none of us surely can feel that somehow we are above anyone else here, nor that we have the answers,

but we depend on each other and on the guidance that God's Spirit gives through many different gifts. I was looking at how nicely this church

is decorated for Christmas season and sitting here and song. I thought that it's a time when we're remembering the birth of our Savior.

Let's remember why he came, to pay the price of all of our sins, our whole lifetime's worth of sins and the sins of the whole world.

So we have reason to be thankful that Christmas season, that we can observe it in the midst of his kingdom.

Our board very kindly gave me this task to try to just make a few opening comments on behalf of the board.

But I was thinking about it ahead of time. I wrote just a few bullet points on my phone, but I really haven't prepared anything beyond that because my hope and prayer is that

maybe it's a little scary, but I told our brother coming here that I thought I'd just open my mouth and see what comes out.

So I hope you'll listen to me with charity and love that we just heard about in the opening comments.

You know that Briar mentioned the meeting in Monticello from a few months ago, but I was just reflecting on this,

that some of our meetings and discussions go all the way back four years to 2015. And I think what started a series of meetings was that there was a sermon

kept by our brother Darwin in Outlook, and it had raised some concern amongst believers. It seemed like it caused some division. Some spoke very favorably of it

and some felt very troubled by it. And the LLC board and staff had discussed it and thought that if it's causing division,

maybe it's best that we not keep it on the archives where it's aired for all of the public and world to hear.

But we didn't think it was fair to our brother that we simply don't keep it there, but that we should visit with him so he's aware of why it would be removed.

Not because we had any questions or doubts of how he believes or anything like that, but simply that we didn't feel it was good for us to keep it there

if it was causing concern. So we had asked two brothers, I think initially Eric Jurmu and Randy Herrala, if they could come and visit with him

just to share those thoughts. But when the request was made, he asked that the entire Wolf Lake board would be able to participate in that discussion.

And so we also asked our brother Jim Jurmu to join, and those three brothers came. And it seemed like that discussion didn't go well. It was left with some differences of thoughts,

and so a follow-up discussion was arranged here at the Wolf Lake Church a couple of months later, and Wolf Lake board and speakers

and along with the three that I mentioned from LLC, our brothers Keith, Warren Amy, and Yoko Hopsari were asked to attend as well. And it seemed like that meeting also didn't resolve things.

There were concerns expressed and some differences. And so subsequent to that, there was a... meeting that was arranged

at the Menahga Church, and in addition to the Wolf Lake board and speakers and the other LLC brothers, Steve Hadia, John Blomquist, and I

were asked to join that meeting. So we had that discussion. And at that time, the Wolf Lake board made the request to us

that they would like to see a meeting involving some other congregation boards. Our suggestion had been Menahga, but the Wolf Lake board said they would prefer

that it be the Minneapolis and Rockford boards. So we subsequently had that kind of meeting of the Wolf Lake, Rockford, Minneapolis, and LLC boards.

It was held at the Minneapolis Church. So that was the... the series of meetings that took place back three and four years ago.

Beyond that, there was only actually one other visit that we had between LLC and the Wolf Lake board, and that was held in October of 2016 at the Brainerd Church.

It was the same group of LLC brothers and the Wolf Lake board. And I would say of that meeting that I think most or maybe all of us left with a feeling

that that visit went very well. I remember talking with our brother Bruce here after the meeting, and his comment was, this is the best visit we've had.

And it seemed like we were able to visit there very openly. Beyond that, there have been no meetings between us. Between the LLC and the Wolf Lake board, there have been many other meetings.

There have been Midwest area meetings. There have been Southern Minnesota meetings. There have been Minnesota congregation chairmen's meetings. And there was one meeting I know that was held at Menahga

that I don't know who called it, but it was boards from Cokato, Brainerd, Menahga, Wolf Lake, and whoever called that meeting also requested some representation from the LLC board.

So that was kind of the series of meetings. And the reason I mention that, first of all, by way of background, how did all of those kinds of meetings come about?

But I also mention it because, as we all know, the rumor mill is always so active. In fact, I got exchange of emails with our brother, Esa, just the other day, and he mentioned,

and I agreed with him, I mentioned too, that the enemy seems to use the rumor mill to spread all kinds of things that are not accurate. And one of the things that was said to me

was that LLC has been badgering the Wolf Lake congregation with a series of 20-some meetings. And, you know, it simply isn't. That's an accurate statement.

But anyway, the concerns that have come up, I don't know how to begin to address them. I know that in this agenda that was prepared by Wolf Lake, the agenda item was to share what might have been

the concerns from comments made at that meeting in Monticello. You know, there have been so many topics discussed. One has been this area of forgiveness and many different aspects of forgiveness.

And if you would just indulge me, I know this is longer than Breyer wished for speeches, but if you would just indulge me to, so it maybe saves some other speaking turns,

I don't know, down the road. But I would like to say, you know, this phrase of continual forgiveness has come up now and then. It seems to be a burr in some saddles or something,

and maybe it would be good if we could just not think about that phrase. But, you know, I think we believe, I think we all believe, this is at least how I would view it,

that we live continually under the protection of God's grace. That we live daily, in the forgiveness of sins. And it must be so,

because we all carry original sin. We're all sin corrupt. And if we couldn't believe that we can live daily in the forgiveness of sins,

where would we be? We wouldn't have any hope. We carry every day this old portion. We heard from Phil,

we couldn't leave it outside at the door. We need to be able to live every day and every moment in forgiveness. It doesn't, however, take away the fact that

we've all felt the effect when we fall into sin, how it takes away our joy and freedom and it stains our conscience. And so we need the power of the gospel

that we could keep faith and a good conscience. And it isn't a law-minded teaching when we are encouraged to put away sin. At least for me, it doesn't feel that way.

It feels like a loving invitation. Dear brother, you don't have to carry the burden of sin. This is a kingdom of forgiveness and grace. And any time that you want to hear the gospel,

you can ask and it is freely preached. Robe of righteousness has been a topic. Jim, maybe we could address just that. Well, I'd like to run down my list and then sit.

Please. I think that you could, but... Yeah, I would prefer to do that if I could. Well, you have said that there's maybe this burr

about this term, and then now we've heard kind of your discussion or your belief on what that is, and I think it would be good if we could talk about that for a minute, because that is a point where

it seems like there's some contention about maybe we could hear what others have to say about that. And I don't want to stop any... I don't want to take away from you

being able to read through those items. I just think... Yeah, I don't have too much more here to say. Okay, well, go ahead.

Okay, let me just skip quickly a few. You know, I'm going to just run down the list. I'm not going to even comment, and I would share my thoughts.

But we've discussed robe of righteousness. We've talked about the time of the 70s and 80s. We've had discussion about the church law of Christ. We've had discussion about justification.

And on some of those, I don't personally... I have to say I don't understand what's our difference. In fact, someone asked me, what do you think about what's going on?

And my answer was, I'm confused. Because I don't know where all the questions are coming from. All of my life as a believer, we've been taught the way we are still taught today

in God's kingdom. Why are there all of a sudden so many different questions and topics that seem to be dividing us?

But I think the comments that were made in the meeting in Monticello, one of the things that caused people to be a little troubled

was that we heard in the speeches of the board members there, one after another, that they were troubled by a letter that had been recently sent out

by a couple of brothers from Arizona. And that seemed to be a troubling letter to everybody who spoke until we heard at the end

from the brothers from Wolf Lake who said they agreed with the contents of that letter. And I have to say personally,

I agreed with some of the contents, but I was very troubled by other things in it and wondered why it was sent. But what also has troubled me,

dear brothers and sisters, has been that, you know, I was thinking about the words of our brother Phil here,

how important it is that we approach each other with loving and forgiving hearts and minds. And yet I have heard many kind of criticisms or I would even dare to use the word attacks

against the LLC board and staff and against some local congregation boards. And it's puzzling and it's very deeply troubling because those who serve on these boards,

they are servants. There are no lords over the congregation. The congregation appoints servants. And as those of you here today know

who have been asked to serve, we haven't asked for these duties. But we see that if the congregation calls us to serve, it's God's call.

And when we think about all that God has done for us, when he sent his son to pay for all of our sins, how can we say no if we are asked to serve? But serving is a position that we're lowered into.

It's not some place where we rule and govern. And we need the support and prayers of all of the believers in serving so that being faulty servants,

we could still try to serve according to God's holy will. And I just ask that you could remember those who serve your local congregation, but also the LLC,

with love and forgiveness and prayers. You know, we aren't battling each other, dear brothers and sisters. We're battling a common enemy.

He'd like to drag us all down. He has worked against me a lot. He'd like to drag us all down. I need your help,

and I need your prayers. Let's help each other so that none of us is lost on the way. We all want to reach heaven.

May God lead us all there. Thank you. And Jim, your comment about being attacked, yeah, I feel that,

we up here in Wolf Lake have been attacked for many years. And so it works both ways. And our speakers and board members, who were they put up there by?

Our speakers have been banned throughout North American Zion. We've been accused of being an island. We've been accused of being a mother,

our own mother congregation. And we do need the help of all of Zion. But that help, I feel, this is my opinion,

that that help has not come from you men. In visiting with some of you guys, I have stated for many years, because the comment has been made by some of you

that the church law of Christ does not apply in these situations, that you guys should get in your vehicles if you have concerns with Phil and Darwin, and come visit with these brothers,

one-on-one. And I personally feel that these MBMAC meetings and some of these others,

like the Monticello meeting, that a lot of these speeches weren't the church, or wasn't the love of Christ being spoken in those speeches. There was comments there made

that Wolf Lake's brothers speak too much of Christ. In my mind, it's all about Christ. Christ is our Savior, and it is only Him that we are going to be saved.

No other man. And I'm not saying this, I guess, you know, I'm trying to speak from my heart. And I don't know all you guys.

And the ones that I do know, I do have great love for. Can I have my fears and sins and doubts forgiven? I think one of the topics that Jim mentioned

was the, as he said, that has been a bit of a burr is this topic of continual forgiveness. And I think if I remember right,

from one of the earlier letters that the Wolf Lake congregation had sent to the board, there was reference made about how the Wolf Lake congregation felt like

maybe the issues stemming from the board member's workshop related to that Phoenix letter. And they stemmed from what they stated, I think, in that letter,

that they thought the most important issue in the letter was about how we are justified. And so maybe the LLC board or the congregation could speak to that

and maybe try to understand if that is one of the concerns or if this is something that we're on the same page about. Yes, I would like to hear

what is the concern about the term continual forgiveness? I live of forgiveness every moment. For all my sins. Jim did mention in his little talk there

about how God's grace covers this sin-corrupt portion, the original sin. I would like to ask if

you also believe it covers these sins that we sin all day long and thought were an indeed. Are these all covered as well?

I believe as Luther writes the explanation in the third article of the creed that God daily and richly forgives me all of my sins.

My name is Lori Alajoki. I'm Ann Vilkama. I just want to address that continual forgiveness.

I don't know if people got scared by the term thinking that, well, I can go rob a bank. I can do anything wild. And God's going to forgive me.

That actually it is righteousness of faith. That I am completely sinful. But when God sees me through the

merry words of Christ, I am sinless. And that we can believe every moment that I am a pardoned sinner. And then that turns into righteous,

you know, you have the spirit that guides you. You have oil in your lamp. Grace is a teacher. Teaches you to shun sin.

And then it comes to the endeavor. And God helps us even in that. And that when we feel that we sin and we fight the threefold enemy,

we do take care of our matters. But what has concerned me and I've been confused that there have been speakers

that run around and say, that's completely wrong doctrine. It is permissiveness of sin. And it's almost been like an unwillingness

to sit down and let's speak about it. And so that's what I think it's an issue because they said, oh, no, that's wrong. Wrong doctrine.

And I know one man for sure is still saying that is incorrect doctrine. That's wrong doctrine. Well, you know what?

We need to talk to these people. And say, it's not. Yeah, it's a welcome from Wolf Lake just to continue on this theme.

Yeah, I've been, I guess, doing a lot of research on this continuous forgiveness. And I have collected a lot,

a lot of excerpts on this topic. And again, so continuous forgiveness, it is, what it means is righteousness of faith. That's what it is.

So it has nothing to do, for example, with endeavor or confession. So this is the most important. So this is kind of also we can say

this is the doctrinal justification that we can every moment, we can continuously believe our sins forgiven.

Sometimes I remember like even Julius in his sermon when he says that when we are believing

our sins are forgiven. Isn't that simple? It's so beautifully. When we are believing

our sins are forgiven. There's a few quotes like Luther. I cannot say often enough that we must carefully differentiate

between doctrine and life. Doctrine is a piece of heaven. Life is a piece of earth. Life is sin, error, uncleanness,

misery and charity must forbear, believe, hope and suffer all things. Forgiveness of sins must be continuous so that sin and error

may not be defended and sustained. So one more quote here. This is from SRK yearbook, Ari Pelkonen. Confession is a great privilege

which brings about these blessings to the life of a child of God. By confession,

we do not become more righteous as by faith we are already righteous because of the complement merit work of Christ.

In partaking of this merit work, the atonement blood of Jesus continuously cleanses us from our sins.

And also, I would say like Anne said, this continuous forgiveness or living in forgiveness every moment,

this grace teaches us, of course, naturally, it teaches us to endeavor to take care of matters

as a fruit of faith. Because we have a conscience, grace teaches us. So it does teach us to endeavor.

Sue Johnson from Wolf Lake. I would like to ask a question to the voice of Zion. Why was it put in the voice of Zion

that when a different voice was spoken? Please explain to us what is the different voice? It has been a huge stumbling block

on our congregation to have that in the voice of Zion. Bruce. I guess to follow up on Sue's question even

with that article in the voice of Zion, I still, what were the concerns with the Wolf Lake speeches?

Maybe we should get back to that original topic. John. First of all,

many greetings from Home Congregation of Seattle. I don't know how many texts and calls and things I got that remembered

you and us here. The other thing I want to mention, we all come here with mixed feelings, but I'll have to say coming up,

it's been many years, unfortunately, since I've been here, but it felt so warm. I guess I was surprised at myself.

But I thought about this question about what was troubling in Monticello, and the only thing that really comes to mind is when I heard that

it was basically a no hope that we could discuss freely and openly these issues in North America without help from some kind of long term

or whatever it was. To be honest with you, it was like a sword in my heart. Because I believe this,

that we're weak, stumbling travelers on the way, but God still has his Holy Spirit here in North America.

Can't we trust that God can help us? I have felt that way. Now granted, in some ways,

from some of the issues, we feel perhaps a little remote in some of the outlying areas, but it's never been,

I have to say humbly in my heart, that Wolf Lake is all wet or whatever. Your fellow traveler's on the way. And I think across North American Zion,

that's how the believers behold each other. Are there issues? Yeah, there's issues. We can't deny that.

Zion's been a battling kingdom from the Old Testament days up to the present. But yet we do need to trust

that God can care for us in his time and his way. We're the ones that are impatient. We want it fixed yesterday or whatever,

but can't we trust that God in his way will help us? That was sorrowful to me about that meeting.

And I'm like, I can't really go into any other details, but it hurt. There was basically a demand

or a thought that we can't solve these problems without kind of like long-term Finnish help. Well, whatever it was, it hurt. Wait for the mic.

Just wait for the mic. Anyway, it was pretty clear, I thought, that to me that was sorrowful, that we should be able to trust.

That God can help. And I still believe he can. But yet I feel my own weakness and failing and need to hear the gospel.

Can you preach the gospel to me? My name is Ken Simonson from Wolf Lake. Now, if this is the case that, as John says,

that the troubling thing that he heard was just simply that, then I ask this question that, why is this that our ministers

are not accepted? Preach in other congregations where, where have they gone wrong in their preaching of doctrine?

Has it been in discord with the scriptures? That if there is somehow that there's not an issue with the doctrine they preach,

then why is this the case? And I think there needs to be, before steps are taken, it would be said perhaps in this

that people have been troubled. But, our doctrine is based on clear scriptures. If one is rebuked as an heir,

one goes to the word of God. And this is the love of Christ in the heart. And this comforter is always in, which is the Holy Spirit,

is always in accord with the word of God. And so it's never in discord. So this is the question I ask then, what are the issues with them?

My name is Nicole Lake. I also want to speak to the, John's comment. I think for our congregation,

I mean even just as a congregation, not just as a congregation member, but as a congregation member, I have not sat through hours

and hours of meetings. You know, for me I can understand that request to,

for finish help, because just for the years that had gone by, and all the meetings that had taken place,

I don't think the first meetings involved the whole board. From what I know, correct me if I'm wrong,

but I just think of the board members and our speakers that have gone through many, many hours of visiting and not coming to a conclusion.

I don't think that they wouldn't trust God that he can help us in North America. But probably that comment would come from just not having,

or getting a resolution through hours and hours and hours of discussion with the same people. So I don't think that,

I just really don't think that the, that our congregation, our board, our speakers would not trust that

our Heavenly Father would look after us here in North America. I think the comment that, John, you were referring to,

if I remember right, it was part of a, the comments from Roger. I don't know if Roger would want to speak to that,

or, and then just keeping notes here, a couple of the other questions that were asked. One was,

what were the concerns of the speeches? That's essentially the first topic that we have on our agenda. So that there maybe could be some understanding

of what specifically from those speeches were occurring. And I think it was also asked if there's still felt that there are issues

with the speakers of Wolf Lake now, and what those are. Jim mentioned the letter. I'm Warren Risingham,

so I figured that I'll speak. First of all, in that letter, I know what heart that was written in.

And I am, it is not my nature to get involved in church doings. It's way against my nature.

But, I lived through the 80s, and I went through horrible, horrible times in the 80s.

And that went away, but the persecutions started again. And that is what being me drove me to start writing that letter.

And make no mistake about it, when somebody is accused, that they have something wrong with them. But we can't tell you what's wrong with them.

That is the very essence of that terrible time. The Kosciusian spirit. And it put people

in hospitals back then, and it has today. These persecutions, that is spiritual violence

and spiritual abuse. Now as far as the letter itself goes, I would be shocked if there's no errors in that letter.

But the different topics and questions that Eric and I put in that letter, we would like those to be answered. However,

the reaction in the Monticello speeches, I was dumbfounded at the amount of reactions

that condemned it, but for the most part, said nothing specific about it. And I was troubled over it

for a long time. But I heard the speeches, and I read some transcripts, and this took months to register.

And I'm very, very sad when I come to this conclusion. There are some things that are true and correct.

I am reading from a transcript. But I cannot agree with it. It is not of the right spirit. I will just take one example

about the criticism of the local boards and the LLC. Those are criticisms that we can read about

in the Holy Scripture. When they criticize Moses that you take too much upon you, we already heard

what happened to them. They were swallowed up by the earth. These people that are making these criticisms will be swallowed up.

And if they do not repent, which they have been encouraged by so many here today to do, they will also be swallowed up

by the earth, which is the heresy. When they criticize the LLC, they are criticizing God himself,

as we have heard so clearly today. Because these men that are serving there are serving at the will of the congregation who God has allowed

to appoint to that position. Okay. That is exactly contrary to how I believe.

I believe that if we do not have total freedom to question our boards on any topic at any time, and I am not talking about being bright-eyed,

but if we do not have total freedom to question our boards at any time, we have got a problem. Because there is only one guarantee

when you take a group of people, and that guarantee is that that group of people will make mistakes. They absolutely will.

And that is not a problem. We all make mistakes every day, all the time. It only becomes a problem

when those mistakes are made. When those mistakes are not acknowledged. Then it becomes a big problem. Hus was burned at the stake

for challenging that in the Catholic Church. Luther risked his life to repudiate this very thing in the Catholic Church. And that is not how I believe.

I do not believe that way, that if we question what our brothers are doing, especially if we would,

with the right hearts, question that out of love, we should have total freedom to do that. When we do not,

we come to a position where the God is the organization, and that is wrong. My name is Margaret Metella,

and I have a question. If all these speakers are put up by God, why were all these other speakers taken down? If they could answer,

what was wrong with them, and why were they taken down? In regards to what Warren said, Paul writes that,

is this working? Paul writes that there's many forms of administration. One Lord, one baptism,

and one kingdom. Now the kingdom of God is a spiritual place. Jesus says himself, the kingdom of God

cometh not with observation, neither shall they say it. Lo, it's here, or lo, it's there.

For behold, the kingdom of God is within you. So this matter of, you know,

the reformation, what Warren spoke, I agree with this, John Hus was burned at the stake

for challenging the authority of the papacy. Martin Luther, the root of the issue and the reason for the reformation

was challenging who is authority in the spiritual matters. And the meat of the matter was, you know,

we know that there's no salvation for one that does not believe. We believe that they are justified before God and Christ alone.

I think that we're finding that this is the correct doctrine from the scriptures and now there is agreement

that this is correct doctrine. But the issue, is this mic working? Yeah.

It seems like it's picking up partway. Put it right in my mouth. I'm going to read some parts of scripture that Jesus speaks of,

the Comforter. As we all know, the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. And he writes in John,

the 14th chapter, the 16th verse, he says, I will pray the Father

and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you forever. In John 14, 26, he writes,

but the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things

and bring all things to your remembrance. What's your name? Whosoever I have said unto you. John 15, 26.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,

he shall testify of me. John 16, 7. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth. It is expedient for you that I go away,

for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you. But if I depart, I will send him unto you.

So we clearly see here that Jesus defines the role of the Comforter. There's one role here. It's to teach us of Christ

and what he has done for us and what he has said unto us. In John 1, it says, in the beginning was the Word,

the Word was God, the Word is with God. In the first epistle of John, the fifth chapter, the seventh verse,

it says, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, these three are one.

We all here believe on a triune God. And this Holy Spirit could never be separated from this triune God.

It is the Word. It is God. It is Christ. And it speaks and glorifies Christ.

There's no other role for it. We have one Comforter, a child of God. In Revelations it speaks

that Jesus, he is the Alpha and he is the Omega. He is the beginning and the end. And there is nothing in between.

So when this Word comes up, Spirit, Spirit, well, I'll go back to John. He says here later in John,

he says, the Spirit of truth will not speak of himself. He will speak of me.

And so let's not take the Spirit, Spirit and Spirit without Christ and make this the Holy Spirit.

Luther writes the ultimate aim of the devil is to separate the Word and the Spirit. And he uses the Spirit

with the small letters. He said one should not grant the people the Spirit with a capital letter

without the Word. They can never be separated. And so let's not dream of a Spirit. That is separated from the Word.

There is no such thing. There's Spirit, but it's not the Holy Spirit. Lori Alioki,

Warren alluded to this during his speech about telling people there's something wrong with you,

but I don't know what it is. In the church law of Christ, it tells, tells us to go to our brothers

and sisters to tell them their fault. We tell them what's wrong with them. We don't tell them

that there's something wrong with you. I don't know what it is. You're causing clouds of confusion. We tell them what the matter is.

There's been fellow travelers in this congregation that have been told to repent. When they've asked,

what are they to repent of? They've been told, I don't know. Just repent.

I believe that is contrary to the Word of God. Mitchell Johnson, Wolf Lake. I believe because of the

sacrificing of Jesus' body, the shedding of His blood, I have hope of everlasting life. And I'd like to ask another question.

A question regarding Jim's comment that when he brought up Darwin's sermon, he said,

I might not get this word for word, but because there was concerns about Darwin's sermon, we thought it would be good

to take it down. But if Darwin's sermon was according to God's Word, and preaching is God's Word,

and you thought it good to take it down, is that an offense towards God? Because Jesus tells us

the Word of God does offend. That's Dan Lake from Wolf Lake here. I also want to touch on

that same topic that Mitchell just spoke of. And obviously for Jim, it still is a bit of concern

that Darwin spoke that sermon about five years ago. That you brought it up again today, but after five years

of being able to study that, and you still have not found doctrinal error that you can point out,

I can only say this. I think it's time you look within and ask why are you offended? If it was God's Word that's spoken

and you're offended, pray to God that you can find the error in your way.

I think there's been a few questions. I guess I would ask if there is any comment. Jim, I think you were just

specifically mentioned. If you want to turn to speak, or if anyone else on the LLC board wants to

touch on the questions. What were the concerns of the speeches? What were the issues

with the speakers? And then just most recently with Darwin's sermon from a few years ago.

Risto Kiernan from Minneapolis. Since we're on the topic of Darwin's sermon, I listened to that

sermon that he gave that we're talking about. I also read an article written by Erich Reineken

that said exactly the same thing that Darwin preached. Published in the Voice of Zion

in the early 90s. So I'm just curious what was wrong then with Darwin's sermon.

Going back to the Monticello meeting, there was a comment concerning continual forgiveness and I'll just read it.

This new phrase that they have coined, continual forgiveness, is nothing more

than a birth of the heresy. My name is Renee Motari and I'm from Monroe, Washington.

I don't belong to this congregation but I do belong to God's kingdom. So I hope that I can say what's in my heart.

I know Seattle had a discussion regarding this meeting and both the Wolf Lake Congregation and the LLC Board

are in love with the Seattle Congregation. As far as continual forgiveness, Jim Frantti, I think he explained it, how he believes,

and I have to say I believe like that. There's a lot of questions being asked here at this meeting

and I just hope and pray that God can prevail and then the LLC could freely speak too

on what's in their heart as far as what the concerns are. I think that to speak about the concerns that have been

with the Wolf Lake Congregation, people are asking questions which is good. I feel like in Seattle

we have a wide variety of questions. And speaking, you know, let's just remember everybody with love.

That's the most important thing. Let us all be able to freely speak what's in our heart. You know, including the LLC

Board members that are here. John said at our meeting that the LLC was going to Wolf Lake, that they did not have an agenda,

that they were going with love to see if they can help. So I don't know if the LLC has any, you know,

answers to some of the questions or concerns. But just let us all speak freely. Lucy Carvinen.

When Darwin first spoke on birth control here in Wolf Lake, I said amen. And then when he spoke in Canada,

I thought, hey, wait a minute. And then he, then let us know that he did not believe

in birth control. But the way he first said it, I thought, hey, wait a minute. But then I understood

that he did not believe in birth control. And I was surprised to hear that the service sermon

had been taken down. And I was hoping that he had been visited with first. I don't know if he was or not,

but that doesn't really matter now to me, I guess. But as it was mentioned earlier, God's word does offend many people.

They become very angry. And if the heart is right when they hear the service, they will forgive errors also.

And then about continual forgiveness, I believe that, yes, we are continually forgiven. If I would die right now,

I don't need to have hurt, because I heard just immediately before I died that my sins are forgiven.

Because even though I am a wicked being, I am still, through the grace of God,

a believer and a child of God. And that continual forgiveness does not mean that I feel like I can sin

and be freed and that I only have to have my sins forgiven once. No.

The fruit of faith guides us, and we want to hear that word preached. That's all I have. Al Lake.

I guess I want to go back to John Stewart's comment there that the foreign voice was in asking for more help

from Finland, or that it would take a long time. I have to say that I feel that that's a very disingenuous statement

on your part, John. We were 10 hours into a meeting where there were accusations of false spirit,

accusations of wrong doctrine, pointed at Wolf Lake. I guess I don't... You can say I'm reading into things

by saying that it was pointed at the Wolf Lake brothers, but based on personal discussions with people in the aisles

and in the schools and in the back, I can say a lot of that was pointed personally at me.

So to turn this at this present time into a statement of the entire problem in North America's Zion

is because Roger asked for extra help from Finland is being very disingenuous, and I don't think that's good.

Let's not be that way. John, did you want to respond at all? Well, I have to restate, I mean, that was troubling to me.

And, you know, to assume that there's no fault on one side and all the faults on the other side,

you know, hey, look, we're all sin corrupt. But, yeah, I have to say, you know, I felt when I heard that

it was, you know, basically, they don't trust that God can work here. I don't say that there's anything,

it's a valid question. But when it's stated, you know, in the way that, hey, it's basically not going to be solved

without help from Finland, it's, to me, it was very sad to hear that. And I'm not, you know,

I don't think that I'm being disingenuous there. I was sorrowful because I believe that the Holy Spirit does its work here.

We heard it. We heard about the work of the Holy Spirit a little earlier. And that we can trust that God will help.

And it's going to be in His time. So, I mean, that's, those are my feelings at the meeting. So I'm going to ask,

while you're holding the mic yet, I want to ask, is that your entire problem? That's the only problem

with those speeches, which is the topic that we are on right now, the first agenda item, the only problem that you had

with the Monticello meeting was that we asked for help from Finland. No. What else then?

Let's get to, cut to the chase. I really don't, let's not sidetrack it.

The other issues that I had, and I have actually talked to a number of people about this, is there also has,

you know, there is a harshness, which I don't think is, I don't think it fosters good dialogue. And it comes from,

it's not far from any one of us, where we get impatient. We're so quick to dry up. And that happens.

But does that mean that the Holy Spirit doesn't do its work here? Of course it does its work here. We have to believe that.

But I am uncomfortable, I'll have to openly say this, and I've said it before, when we start to bring up this topic

immediately or quickly about wrong spirit, I don't believe that that's an approach that fosters good open Christian discussion. And I think when we look at the issues,

even in Holy Scripture, particularly the early Christian congregations, the focus in those letters that, for example, Paul wrote,

and the writer to the Hebrews wrote, is taking these issues and dissecting them to the nth degree is not what they needed.

They needed the sincere milk of the word, babes, that we would be able to believe like little children. And so we certainly can freely discuss

doctrinal issues, and of course they're important, but let's face one thing. Which of us has such a wonderful

understanding of doctrine? I would think we got a church full here that say, well, you know what, my understanding's pretty poor,

and it's a good thing that we're not justified by some kind of a wonderful understanding. And then on the other side of that, it's also true that neither are we condemned

for our poor understanding. And I've had many times to take joy in that because my understanding isn't very good, but I want to believe like a little child.

And so, yeah, you know, I felt that there at the meeting, that was really the one thing, and I haven't been involved in these discussions,

you know, that have happened in the past. You know, you've got to start somewhere, a smaller group, it's probably a good way to go. But when there's a lack of hope

and trust that God can help us, I think it's not a good thing to where we can't trust that God can help us with open and free discussion.

Yeah, John, I agree with your last speech, or your last part of your speech, but for myself, you didn't hear the harshness in some of these other speeches that were spoken

about, like, drive the wolves out of the kingdom. It's time to do that. We're going to leave you on the wayside. You know, there was harshness.

This is my take on it, and I have to ask the question. We sat in that meeting for 10, 12 hours, and to me, not one issue was discussed.

Now, the people that sat in that meeting, don't they question not one issue was discussed? You know, and I didn't see the harshness in those Wolf Lake speeches.

I mean, just to ask for help, I mean, there was no harshness in that. That's just kind of my take. No, no, Bruce, I'm sorry.

I didn't make myself clear. I was uncomfortable with and felt sorrow over, you know, we're in the wrong spirit, the fingers pointed.

Yeah, I was uncomfortable with that, and I even called one of the brothers. We were able to take care of him. Hey, maybe I'm too far the other way.

I don't know. All the gifts are needed. But, yeah, in fact, I called and I talked to Roger and I talked to Phil.

Let's see. No, not Roger. Phil and Darwin after that. Because I did feel bad that when those kinds of approaches,

which, you know, this flesh is capable of a lot of damage. You know, even, you know, we had this threefold enemy. Well, the flesh, it can do a lot of harm. And we grow impatient.

We grow dry. So, yeah, I was. And that's exactly what I was talking about. That's not far from any one of us.

But to foster open discussion, we need to talk about us, not you or that person. We need to hear and heed God's holy, comforting, instructing, exhorting word with the faith of a child.

And so, yeah, I appreciate you making that clarification. I was, you know, sorrowful about that as well. You know, I think when we look at each other, you know, through the eyes of flesh, we see each other, our faults,

our sinfulness, and we look at each other with the eyes of Christ, we see each other as pure and holy. And I think that is that battle. It's so much easier for us to look at each other through the flesh

than it is through the spirit. And I think that's a lot of what's been taking place in the last four years, five years. And regarding to the comments, concern about not trusting in God's.

Can you say your name? Laurie . You know, Roger's comments about not trusting for it to be, for God's work to happen.

And sometimes in life, it's good for each one of us, to put ourselves in the other person's shoes and try to understand the situation from their perspective. So, and have a forgiving mind.

Put the best construction on all that we do. The other, our brothers does. And, you know, we're all here today. And I think every one of us has come with the hope,

that God would help us. Roger's here. You know, I have children at home. They would like to do Christmas activities.

Do some baking. I'm sure all of us do. Kids want to do something. But we all set aside our daily life,

came here with hope. So, I would think that, John, if that was your concern at the Monticello meeting, I think you can let that go.

Let those doubts go. Because we are all here with hope that we, this can be taken care of. Regarding the sorrow, oh, Lucy Carvinen.

Regarding the sorrow of a brother feeling like there was no hope and couldn't trust in God's kingdom. I guess I'm a little bit surprised that here, a brother is asking for help.

He has hope. He has hope, yes, that God will provide by asking for that help. What I'm surprised about is that

there wasn't given any consideration for that. What would have been wrong with asking? Nothing. Anyway, I certainly can't see anything wrong

with asking other believers, especially when you're involved yourself. And he did it, too, so that the LLC and all the people that had been to these meetings

wouldn't dry up. It was for all of us that he asked for that. Not just Wolf Lake, but the entire Zion. Roger Olioki.

I guess I hope that, and obviously John, at least himself, the other LLC board members have not spoken as to what they felt was disconcerting or uncomfortable or wrong in regards to the things

that the board members here said at that meeting. I think Lucy kind of spoke to my thoughts and why I had said what I said during that speech. It wasn't, John, that I didn't trust

that the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, could not solve the problems that have been troubling us for so many years. Certainly it can.

And otherwise we would have to say something of the nature that we don't believe that the Holy Spirit is here, which I believe that the Spirit of God is in North America

because there are believers here also. And to Lucy's point, which she mentioned, the reason that I had thought that, you know, it's the kingdom of God is not something

that has borders, and it is the whole group of believers here on this earth. And as I had mentioned in the speech, which all of you have, that I was afraid and remain so.

As I had spoken, John, with your own brother, that it's very easy, and I think Tom might have spoken that way at the meeting even, I don't recall, that we can wrap ourselves around the axle,

especially those individuals of which I am one, have been in some ways involved and at the forefront of these things for many years. And for that reason, I felt that having it being so

that we had for many years now attempted to have discussions and that they had not borne fruit. If they had borne fruit, we would not even be here today. But because that I felt, in my opinion,

just that the matters were not being solved or moving even in the correct direction towards reconciliation, that what would it hurt then to ask believers, be where they may,

outside of this country, particularly in the Midwest. And so I don't know if, I guess I have, I don't want this to sound, you know, distrusting, but I'm hard-pressed to believe that a meeting was asked for

in a letter from you brothers at the LLC, and the only issue was my speech and asking for help. I'm having some difficulty believing that. And I guess to John, I felt like for you, you say that,

and I have to believe you that you were troubled with how I had said it, or I guess in my mind, you've misinterpreted it as a distrust of the Holy Spirit or a lack of it or hopelessness.

I guess I would have preferred that you would have called me. But it is what it is, and if in some ways you have misinterpreted my intent or that the method by which I did it is offensive,

I don't know. I wish to ask for forgiveness for that. And also then, John, I think it would be important for you when you make this, as you have,

that my asking for help was very troubling to you. The congregation at Seattle had also written to the LLC prior to the Finnish trip, Swedish trip, that did you feel the same discomfort

and offense in regards to the action that they took, which was that they had suggested it would be wise to include other gifts. I guess that would be a question I would have for you.

And then, like I mentioned earlier, I don't wish to come across as distrustful, but it's not, it's a very unusual thing. It's truly an unusual thing that the Board of Directors wishes to meet

with one congregation over matters of concern, and they are seemingly only limited to one statement of asking for help. I think there's more to this than that.

And I would ask that to all of us, and especially to the Board, which wrote this letter, to be open and free and say, I think there's more. Those are my thoughts for now.

So I'm Kerry Simonson from Saskatoon. And I know we don't want to spend a lot of time and waste time, so to speak, but, you know, Lucy's speech brought me back to my home

where I know my wife and parents, wife and children are preparing for Christmas, and I should be there with them. But I wanted to come, they wanted to send me

with this prayer that God could help, I know that not one of us is important on ourselves. This meeting could go ahead without any of us. But yet they have wanted to send me,

as I have been asked to serve. What would I say? For me, this meeting is the first meeting for me since I joined the LLC Board just about three years ago,

where we've had a chance. First, I have never been at any of the meetings with the Wolf Lake Board. And I haven't had a chance to be in this church

since I was a youth coming to Stony Lake Youth Days 30 years ago. So for me, this meeting was a chance for me to listen, to hear what you, dear believers in Wolf Lake,

feel, how you believe. We heard at the board members' workshop, it was a long meeting, and I guess I would just say two things

that I would speak to. One, the request for help felt to me almost like a dismissal of the speeches that were presented at the meeting.

And at the introduction, Harry spoke about a man who came to him and said, I have three questions or four questions, or whatever the questions were.

And Harry had said that when those questions are answered, when will the next question come? And that's when this is how that request felt to me, is that then when brothers would come,

what would be the next step? So I've been very supportive of us meeting with the Wolf Lake congregation to hear how the congregation believes.

Then about the content of the speech, and we have the transcript, the tone of the speech was very pleasing to the flesh. It was presented in a nice way.

There was no problem with the presentation and how it was delivered, the speeches. But at the meeting, if I could summarize a long meeting,

I heard so clearly many dear brothers speaking. And these were brothers I don't know. I feel they were recently put on boards. And they spoke how this letter really troubled them,

how without knowing some thought that this was the LLC's belief, that this letter had somehow come from the LLC, and that they had this impression that this was how we should believe. But as they read the letter, they were troubled.

And they spoke how, they could feel, one spoke of how they could feel the shackles that they experienced in unbelief coming around them

as they read this letter. And so many speeches, as Jim said, spoke. And yes, I'm not going to comment, we all speak how we speak.

And even I remember Elijah in the Old Testament, when he was battling, he went over. But yet God worked through him. But the speeches of the meeting spoke

how this is not how I believe. And then at the end, the Wolf Lake brothers spoke that I believe like this. So that was where especially my concern was.

But dear brothers and sisters, may I believe my sins. Jim Jurmu. I can't answer all of the questions as they were asked.

I don't even remember the specifics of many of them. But I do want to say that through the years when we've met, we've acknowledged here, and we've heard acknowledgment also from others here

that things haven't been resolved or understood the same after we've left a meeting or after we left a visit, trying to visit over.

And like Jim outlined and someone else here asked about Darwin's sermon, that was the beginning of the meetings that we had. Originally we wanted to come and visit with Darwin

or have a couple of brothers visit with Darwin so Darwin would understand that his sermon caused two reactions, or at least two reactions.

Reactions of praise and reactions of, I don't know how to, you know, disappointment or doubt

or whatever words you might use. And a sermon that causes that, sometimes we as servants, our human portion enters in.

We didn't speak clearly or left some understanding that's not accurate. Nonetheless, we wanted to visit. When we left that first gathering,

it was a short period of time later that we found out, or I found out, that that meeting,

which I thought was a meeting of some brothers to talk about what was troubling or trying to explain why that sermon was taken down.

I know originally Darwin was on vacation during that time or traveling and couldn't have a face-to-face meeting. But then to find out

that that discussion was recorded, to me, this wasn't how it's been when I visited with brothers in the past about the way and the journey,

that the speeches of us that were there, poor and faulty, would be passed around. And I don't know why we would do that.

I understand the thought, though, that you would record a meeting that everything that happened that is spoken there could be established

and understood and so on. That's fine. But why there have been transcriptions or messages sent out,

it's caused me to be uncomfortable. And the enemy of souls has told me, well, you don't want to read what you've said. You know, how hard should I examine

what's been attached here to the agenda? So when we were at the, um, board meeting in Monticello, I didn't feel like the comments

that were spoken throughout the day were towards Wolf Lake or Wolf Lake congregation. I felt like when the brothers spoke

later on in the meeting, that I had heard many speeches there that answered. Personal thoughts of mine were expressed

by others in their thoughts that they expressed. And yet, I didn't understand every speech that was kept there.

And when I didn't understand, I let them go or I tried to let them go. Or if I've been bothered by something that was said, I would ask someone else,

what did you understand? And sometimes it's been easy for me to just say, yeah, okay, that was fine. But I haven't felt like

the Spirit of God wasn't there. I heard the Spirit of God. I heard the voice of the Good Shepherd there at that meeting.

Collectively through many, many speeches. And then when you brothers spoke, and now when this has been passed out, I did read it again

before coming here because we were asked to do so. And I don't want to go line by line. But the question that I had was,

did you hear what I heard? And it sounded like you heard something that was foreign or something that was upsetting

or something that needed correction. And so, also when we visited, we haven't on the LLC board

visited about which ministers should be speaking and which ministers shouldn't be speaking. But that's a congregation matter

and the congregations have put speakers to serve and they've also asked speakers that have been serving to rest.

And I would say there's been reasons throughout history why brothers would rest. And we at the LLC,

when I've been on the LLC board, we haven't discussed why or who should or shouldn't be speaking in the local congregations.

And when servants have been called to serve, we've rejoiced. And when servants have been asked to rest, we've joined with that decision

that was made locally. One visit that we did have in the pastoral committee when we were discussing the communication

between the Wolf Lake board and the LLC brothers, or at least Jim or Randy, I don't remember which,

I did make, I did have a thought and I did share that with, that we,

maybe we should ask Wolf Lake congregation if they would like to visit with some of the LLC brothers. And this is only to visit

to find out what's troubling us, what's causing the division between us. It doesn't seem to be so much that there's some doctrine

that's being spoken or taught that's different, and yet sometimes I don't understand what the questions are asking,

or I don't understand perfectly the robe of righteousness or some of the other questions that have been asked.

But I've understood certain portions of God's word in a way where I've tried to explain how I've understood.

Sometimes that's been accepted and other times that hasn't been accepted. And I'm not talking by Wolf Lake brothers, but I just thought that it would be good

that we would be together to visit. I don't know all of what has taken place since the beginning to today. I haven't felt like it's LLC

against Wolf Lake or Wolf Lake has taken on LLC. I haven't felt that it's a matter that there's some,

wrestling match going on between the LLC board and the Wolf Lake board, but I have felt that the believers are troubled.

And for that reason I thought that it would be good that we would be together and visit. And yet I come feeling like

I have nothing to offer, that I can only confess my faith, I can only speak to things that have been on my mind,

not being right, but just so that you would know what I have wondered about, like these transcripts that have gone out

or recordings. And I've shared them, I think, in our smaller meetings when we've met. But in all, I do need to hear

that can I yet believe my many doubts and sins forgiven. Lunch is ready. Continue this for a bit

or is everybody ready for lunch? I got the mic in hand. Should I wait till after lunch? Go ahead.

So there's been reference to Darwin Lake, John Lefterlock from Minneapolis. Someone made a reference to Darwin Lake sermon

in Outlook Summer Services 2015. And someone made a reference to an article, which was published

in the Voice of Zion. I have it here in front of me, August 1989. And this isn't the full article

from Finnish. He actually wrote two different ones in the 1980s in the Bivimius. And I do have the full Finnish articles.

But I just thought I'd just read one little paragraph. So at the end of one paragraph, the rejection of birth control

and abortion arises on the part of everyone as a personal matter on the basis of faith.

Then this is the part I wanted to read the next paragraph. In Christianity, as elsewhere, there are those mothers

who have lost their health. The ill, whether they be physically or psychologically ill, need medical help and rest.

When a wife or husband is ill, recovering, or physically or psychologically exhausted, the commandment of love

teaches that during that time, they want to mutually refrain from sexual intercourse. This signifies, as needed,

a time of fasting and prayer according to the word of God and is not birth control. The believers have taken a stand

on this matter at large speakers' and elders' meetings in Finland in the 1970s. Period.

In that Menahga meeting, Jim, at the end of the meeting, when you stood up and said how you believe

that if you're using absinthes for preventing children, it's birth control and it's wrong, and we all said amen.

Remember that? But let's sing the dinner song. Go eat. Why don't we do that?

So contrary to the teachings of this world, so contrary to, I would say, the majority of the doctors' teaching on these things, and as we heard from the reaction, there were those who seemed to take it that this was giving them some permission.

And so to leave that out on the archives, it just didn't seem to me to be a good choice. And I would hope that if there were things that I would speak that were of concern, that I wouldn't have any problem with it being removed from the archives, and I would much rather that it were than to be something that's going to cause...

confusion and division. And even for those outside of God's kingdom who would be seeking, we wouldn't want to give some understanding that is contrary. I just had many other thoughts, but I'll stop at that and let somebody else speak.

Thank you. I would ask that most of all, can I believe my own sins and failings forgiven? This is Ann Vilkama again. I am wondering that...

Darwin has asked forgiveness for this, for offense that he has created. And I think that we need to forgive him. And we move on. Why does this keep coming up?

It is neither nay or they, or here or there. And any minister can have a sermon of weak words, like the Finns say, the preacher speaks wrong and the congregation believes correctly. I think we need to move on.

And this is not the crux. This is the crux of why we're here today. Lucy Carvin. Actually, what I thought I said is that initially,

I thought, hey, wait a minute. But then I heard Darwin say that under no circumstances should one practice birth control. And as we know, God gives the increase. If we hear something,

it's all a matter of our heart. If someone's looking for a free license for birth control, they're going to do it. The bottom line is it's how we believe and our fruits that reveal the condition of our heart.

But my question is, do you believe, do we believe here what John read regarding the article that was about birth control? That's how I believe. And since I have the mic, there's a couple other things I was thinking about is Wolf Lake

has been painted with a terrible picture. When we went to summer services, we were having a good time visiting, and this happened on a couple different occasions. And they said, where are you from?

They backed up, put their hand over their mouth, and you could tell that, oh, you're from Wolf Lake, that terrible place. That's how I felt. I felt I had the plague.

And someone mentioned about having taped services or meetings. I think it's good. If it wouldn't have been that Elma Yaliyoki had had the annual meeting, oh, the big board meeting in the cities, it was like in the early 70s.

We weren't able to meet. We didn't make it for some reason, but we got to listen to the tape. And that helped us to see what was true and correct in the eyes of God. Otherwise, we probably would have gone where so much of our friends went and relatives.

And when we are speaking of faith matters, well, we are accountable for our words, are we not? So I don't see, myself anyway, the harm, because we just, one individual had the wrong understanding of what I said earlier this morning.

So when we can listen, then we can hear better when we hear it a second or third time. But that's all I have. Jim Jurmu mentioned, this is Roland Kiernan. Jim Jurmu mentioned that the local congregations are responsible for,

you know, setting speakers and setting speakers to speaking and so on. And the implication I got from what he said, I don't know if I understood correctly or not, but that there was no LLC involvement in that.

Well, I went to a board meeting some years ago, a couple years ago, I believe it was in Monticello, before the series of dismissals began. And it was brought up there by, if I recall correctly, Eric Jurmu began that discussion by saying that, it's perhaps time to start examining whether some speakers that are causing confusion should be,

and I know I'm roughly paraphrasing what happened, but these actions need to be considered on the local level that these speakers should be possibly spoken to or taken down. Then Walt Lampe kept a speaking turn immediately after that, and I'll read the quote here.

The goal is not just to relieve somebody of their duties, but the goal is the preservation of society. And again, this is Walt Lampe's words, not Eric's. First, for those that seem to have a different understanding or emphasis,

but also for all of us of the flock of God, I think this is, to me, where we are at. I think although this group of people can't make any decisions at this time, I think, okay, this is an important census.

I think although this group of people can't make any decisions at this time, I emphasize that. I think it is time for us to think about, are brothers that teach in otherwise, and that there is contention about them, around them, is it now time for congregation boards to consider this matter very seriously?

Take it to their congregations. Is there change that should be made? This is what is in my heart. I put it before you.

I feel timid about it. It doesn't make me feel happy to think about these things. It makes me very sad that some of these brothers have gathered people around them that seem to have some root of bitterness against God's kingdom or individuals in God's kingdom.

I pray. Pray for them. I, like many, wake up many times a night. The first thing on my mind is this situation.

I pray for those that are opposed and those that think differently. I pray that we would all be united through the power of the Spirit, experience the joy of salvation, and continue as children in the kingdom of children,

in the kingdom of grace and forgiveness. I need your prayers, too, to remain in faith. I think this speaks pretty clearly to the idea that there is...

There has been an understanding around that this was not entirely generated at the local board level, but that some decisions were made among people associated with the LLC and perhaps even on the LLC board that have kept speeches later that did not speak against

this kind of activity. It is always the task of the local congregation and the local people to decide who's going to speak in their congregation, who's going to be taken down, and it's not something that an outside congregation comes and starts giving unsolicited advice on, you should do this

or you should do that. So I don't know if the idea was to dissociate the LLC from this kind of thing, but I have to say that this definitely does point to that. The other thing is this relitigating of Darwin's sermon, I really have some problems with that.

Forgiveness as it was preached. It's forgiven, it's forgotten. But it does bring to light something else that I've kind of noticed. There's people that raise concerns about certain sermons and are taken more seriously than

other people's concerns about other sermons. And it seems to be with those that are allied with the LLC or somehow see things from the same standpoint, those are above criticism and you cannot question those and those speakers aren't questioned.

But if it is anybody on the, quote-unquote, LLCC, I don't know who it is, but if it is anybody on the, quote-unquote, other side of the fence, then they're the ones that are examined. And I think it points to this, what Warren raised earlier toward the end of his comment

is, has this become, like in Finnish I heard the phrase that , or in other words, has this become an institutional type of a faith where we start following the organization and its leadership? There are some, I know, that are following Christ.

Christ in life, suffering, and doctrine. And there are those that have made very clear statements, just friends and associates, have said that, I put my trust in the LLC. And well, don't we want to go to Scripture?

Well, no, I don't need that because I've been told that. We had a discussion in my former local congregation where it was emphasized that we don't need to read the Scriptures. There's now all of a sudden an emphasis that we don't need to.

We don't need to go to the Bible, that all we need to do is hear our sins forgiven. Well, the Bible is replete with phrases and with sayings that, you know, we start with the second book of Timothy, chapter 3, verse 17, or 15, where it talks about that all doctrine

is given by God and is profitable for instruction, reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness. Book of Proverbs says that only fools despise wisdom and knowledge. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

the personal endeavor or is it something that is dictates given by speakers from the from the pulpit okay do we not trust the holy spirit even if like ann just mentioned the speaker can sometimes err and and speak incorrectly but the congregation still believes we still hold the

speaker as a dear brother and they may have spoken wrong or maybe i misunderstood what was going on okay but we don't start uh thinking in this way that well if you let the cat out of the bag as a speaker well the congregation is going to run out there like a bunch of savages and start to

start going down that road the spirit of god is far more powerful than any one of us here is and it teaches and and if if i had this idea in my heart that that um i want to go and do a certain activity that is seen as wrong it doesn't matter what the speaker says i'll go and do it what is

most important is the personal faith and and if you want to remain obedient to the word if you want to remain obedient yes we we sure still fall out and fall short but we're not out there living this life we all screw up from time to time we all need this instruction from the scriptures

and so on but we have to trust the grace i trust the spirit to teach through its work okay i hope i can make my thoughts clear here i uh steve brought out can you say your name oh i'm priscilla illy teller from brainard um anyhow steve brought out about weak words over the internet now i don't know some of the people

here know i broke my leg in april and i was couldn't step on it for three months and so i was able to listen to a lot of sermons and i was really really shocked um i was always raised to believe that that when you speak from the bible you're not going to be able to speak from the

bible you speak from that text and we don't need what personally i would call gossip over the internet now gossip over the internet is is um like putting the pearls before the swine i i won't name the speakers but there was a sermon in phoenix where where somebody said something

about black the men with black suits i i was just horrified this this went all over the internet and i know i have relatives that listen to this and oh my goodness and then another one said oh i was talking in the parking lot and i didn't take me long to realize this was

one of those i i just couldn't believe it the minister should open the text and we speak christ and christ crucified we don't spread these if somebody told you a story who's all saying these things we don't spread these things we don't spread these things we don't spread these things

spread them on through the internet for the whole world whoever wants to whoever is listening and um i had a little text here i was going to read here um it's not oh okay about reading the bible now in alaska i was told oh you oh you can't read the bible you got to have the holy spirit to

read the bible i said what when we were when we were younger when the heresy went we were all admonished to take your bibles open them up it was a joy to read the bible then i was in a coqueto and i heard a sermon oh you can read the bible from front to back if you

don't have the holy spirit oh this it was an elmer elmer olayoki used to say from a child thou has known the holy scriptures which are able to make make thee wise unto salvation now that crazy message come in front um okay okay i'll start over and from a child thou has

known the holy scriptures which have made thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in christ jesus but what my point was these these in these rumors preached over the internet is just oh i was just horrified and there that those were two of them i'm telling you about but

i i was able to listen to many sermons because i couldn't walk on my leg for three months so i listened to quite a few and there were for the most part when that sermon was done i'd say amen amen but sometimes it was just a shock to hear what i call gossip over the internet just a little

comment uh i always remember elmer olayoki saying that when the internet came around that now he knows how god's word is going to work and he knows how to do it and he knows how to do it and he knows how to do it and he's going to go from all for all corners of the world and uh and i can feel for

you steve that you know or all you speaker brothers tremble when you know that knowing your flesh that yeah everybody's listening because i i know i sure wouldn't be able every one of my speeches would be long gone talking about the ministers kenny reisen they don't have us in this book uh he entrusted us with the word of reconciliation

there has been some uh numerous sermons that speak on something other than the word and what some have referred to as agenda sermons how about on page 35 of his book says the main principle in proclaiming the word is this that every preacher speak the pure word of god that is

stay solidly in the bible he who speaketh let him speak the words of god so i think that's good that have us had then i don't know if uh any of the brothers that um called this meeting if they'd want to i don't really think we finished up on that first issue on the agenda um the reason for

calling the meeting uh the comments from monticello i think it was but if that's if that's done and if it is it's fine but i think we should maybe um discuss at length the great issue that is dividing god's kingdom here in the world and i think that's a great issue and i think that's a great issue

here in america and that is disinviting believing ministers without cause which is a great sin it is a sin against god is a sin against the kingdom of zion i'll read the bottom portion of page 18 in the same book by vano havas the holy ghost is always a gathering power

it melt believing men into living fellowship it does not and listen carefully it does not yet isolated christians one into one corner and another to the next but it forms one flock around a good shepherd he ignites into one head christ one body whose members are joined together

seamlessly through brotherly love so this idea of disinviting believing ministers pressuring ministers off the speaking for unexplained reasons is is sin that's pretty simple um when we place ourselves any one of us that place ourselves

in fact havas had another portion in there i could probably find it quickly here but he says whenever we place ourselves in a position to consider the penitence of another we have placed ourself above the level-headed flock in other words we start to place ourselves

in a position to think we're somebody we kind of got it figured out and we're gonna we're gonna put this other man in whip him into shape that is clearly the work of the devil if now a year and a half since phil from this congregation was disinvited to coquito um they still haven't

figured out why so i think it's clearly a sin and there's other examples that i've seen in the past that have other congregations have followed suit um so in other words to go along to get along is a very bad and dangerous path go along with god's word go along with the holy spirit

but do not go along with this dividing business because that is clearly of the devil i think shortly before lunch a couple of john was able to speak and jim um but as i would put it out to the llc board again to make sure you have an opportunity to voice the concerns i think as jim

said that maybe it wasn't jim somebody else said that you were all involved in or reviewed the letter that was sent out and want to make sure you have an opportunity to speak about what was concerning from wolf lake board members speeches there this is becky lake from wolf lake and i

think what we are gathered here today is a very important part of our work and that's why i think is to hear what are the concerns with our speakers, our board members, and our congregation. It is true we have been painted.

We've got a black cloud hanging over our congregation, and that is a reality. And as a congregation member, of course, I'm married to Darwin, but as a congregation member,

it's really troubling to be in this situation. And, you know, somebody brought up even just putting yourself in other people's shoes. I have 12 children, and it's like,

so they live with this too, and our whole congregation does, and my family members, and this situation, well, there's problems with your dad, for my kids.

There's problems with your parent. What are they? Well, I don't know. I had a discussion with somebody that lives not in Minnesota,

further away. They asked, well, what are the concerns with Darwin? I said, I don't know. I said, if you talk to somebody,

I wish you would ask them that, because I don't know. We have tried to get the answer to this question, and we can't get the answer. And, you know, somebody made the comment

that they came here today to listen to how the Wolf Lake Congregation believes. After the first disinvitation we had of one of our ministers, we had a congregation meeting,

and the congregation members spoke, and they spoke that our ministers are in the love of the congregation, and their sermons are available on the Internet

for people to read, or to listen to. So that is how probably most of the congregation believes. It's out there. So what I want to hear is, what are the concerns?

What are the issues? What are the problems? That's, I think, where the... That's what we need to hear from.

Why are the ministers disinvited? They're not going to Menahga. Of course, we've shared ministers with Menahga for years and years.

They've been uninvited from Menahga. They're off the schedule there also. And I don't... I'm not speaking as saying,

oh, you know, it irritates me that, you know, my husband's not going somewhere. I'm speaking for myself and not... No, not as that type of an issue.

But it's... I think that's what we need to get to. And I think there's... I don't know if the problem is

that there are differences in doctrine. I know there's been some talk that, well, doctrine, kind of sort of dismissive,

but these teachings of even forgiveness. Do we always forgive? The Christ... Christ says in the Bible,

says, if you do not forgive sins, my Father in Heaven will not forgive you yours. Well, there have been teachings that there's times we don't forgive.

I believe that... I believe God is all-powerful and can do close somebody's mouth or whatever, but I don't think the teachings should be there

that there's times we don't forgive. So I think there are actual issues that maybe are differences that are...

that are causing these problems. But I would, like I say, like to hear more from the... from those that have come from the LLC board

that what's... what are the concerns? What's... what's...

it's... you know, and even the church law of Christ about if someone offends you, go and talk to him between thee and him alone.

And I think there's a beauty in that that if we can't go talk to them, then maybe we shouldn't even say anything. Maybe we shouldn't pass these...

pass things around and go talk to others. Or if you... actually, I understand, it is hard to go talk to others,

but maybe then you could... you could bring somebody with you. But I don't think there's any benefit to going and talking to other people

about somebody else. It just... it just... I think the beauty is that...

is that then we... then so many issues would be resolved if people went and talked to somebody individually that they had an issue with.

And it wouldn't be something that becomes some big, huge thing that was misunderstood from the start. Adrian Piranus.

There's been a couple of times mentioned here this aspect of the church law of Christ. And I need to be corrected if I understand this wrong,

but how I understand the church law of Christ is in this way that that is set there for the care when offenses come between us as brothers and sisters in faith.

And then there is that prescribed order there that we would first visit together with the one. And why is it that way? The one that has caused the offense

may not even realize that offense has been caused. And if matters aren't resolved, then we would invite others. And eventually, even those matters

are matters that would be... cared for by the congregation. Then when I consider serving as a servant of the word, and if something that I would say

raises question or causes confusion, I have been asked to serve by the congregation. So I can't put that type of a requirement on it that I would be served by the congregation.

And if it's left question or confusion in the listener, that everyone that has been confused needs to come to me and visit.

But the congregation will care for me as a servant of the word. So I guess how I've understood that is there's a distinction there

when we're talking about the church law of Christ. And that it's there for the care of, and caring for those offenses that come between us. That doesn't preclude

when weak words would be spoken in a sermon, in a public situation, in that way. It doesn't preclude me from going

and visiting one-on-one with an individual if it feels like there is that opportunity. But it doesn't preclude me from going The congregation, then, is the care for the, cares for the servants.

I guess coming here, as many have also said, have come with that hope and prayer that, as Phil already said in the opening prayer and in his opening comments, that there would be ears that are open to hear,

hearts that are open to believe. And I've pondered over these past few years when there has been this request that we need to visit about matters of doctrine.

And I feel in many of the discussions, board members' workshops, area-wide board meetings, summer and winter services, the topics have been topics

of doctrine, and doctrine as in that way, how are these matters understood and taught? How do we believe these matters from God's Word? And here we are today, and what I'm left with is

we have paused around doctrinal questions and matters, but unity hasn't returned through those discussions. It's the Holy Spirit that, calls, gathers, enlightens, and brings unity.

Unity doesn't happen through a discussion of doctrine. If we are approaching it from this mindset that we would understand all points of doctrine, Jesus reminds and instructs that

first we seek for God's kingdom. We seek to be a child there, in God's kingdom. And when we, in childlike faith,

are able to believe, all else is given. And I guess for me, that's also included the understanding

which comes then through the Holy Spirit. And I need to be content with that because

even at that, God keeps things as His mysteries. We won't understand everything.

And our understanding will never be what takes us to heaven, but am I able to believe? So I guess that's where I'm

left pondering and wondering that when we consider topics of doctrine, which we have done, and the discussions have been

in that way that they haven't brought unity, what remains? What remains then the issue? And there's been comments made

in this way at some of the discussions where someone would say

in this way, I agree with the introduction, but I don't agree with the discussion.

And we've already visited here and it's been noted that words can be weak and we can miss out.

We can state things. We can go overboard. But I guess what I've felt in the meetings

and the discussions that I've been at is that the discussion hasn't been

differing from the presentation. Therein, through the speeches after an introduction,

God through His Spirit has also led and guided. And there also I have heard the message of God's Kingdom.

So, when we pause around these things and we consider these things, then there needs to be a

personal question that we all need to ask. Am I in the unity of God's Kingdom

that comes through His Spirit? But for myself, my many weaknesses, faults, sins, doubts, and fears

can I yet believe them? And for them all, forgive me. Peace, everyone.

I'm Harve Vahutkaja. I come from Phoenix and I'm very timid to ask this commenter

because I'm not a board member of LLC and I'm not a congregation member

here in Wolf Lake. I have to say that I'm in the sanctuary for the first time

in my life. And also, when it has been discussion about

local speaker brothers, I have to say that I have never heard their sermons.

And that way, you can stop all time me if there is other comments that which are more timely.

But I have had some private discussions with members from here, sometimes maybe small group,

and also I have been, I have gone to LLC board meetings because I'm a

shared pastor of LLC. I have been here now 30 months and before that

44 years in Finland. And I have to say, what I say are all my own personal experiences

and more in Finland, but I see some similarities between situation in Finland past 10 years,

maybe, in my life and situation now here. Many of those questions

or terms or discussions and concerns are very familiar to me,

even those that we have been discussing today. And when I was thinking this situation

and this coming meeting, I thought that almost all I have heard earlier for example those discussions

that question of rope of righteousness, I heard that in Finland before we came,

what this rope means, can a believer stay in it or not. And I heard this discussion in my home congregation

in Finland and I know that it was in some locations, not around the country

and you know that there is many, many, many congregations over 100 here. I can't remember

the right number. Then other discussion was that how our sins are forgiven.

Are they all time or momently or punctually. If sins are forgiven

all time, what happens when we preach the gospel? I also heard this term

continually forgiveness first time in Finland in my life and in some discussions

and also, is it enough this saying what's familiar to me

from my childhood that we are living under the grace. Is there some differences

or is it same question? Also, I recently had some discussions that what's the gospel?

Is it an absolution? Is it same than gospel that we preach the sins forgiven in Jesus name

and precious blood? Also, there is a gospel of Luke or Mark. It's also called gospel

and some discussions we had when some in my home congregation, in other congregations,

there was some unrest and confusion with some sermons and some believers,

they felt that they didn't hear the gospel. I was myself presented in one meeting

that one sister told that when she left from services, she told to her husband

that I didn't hear the gospel and we had discussion about that and what's the gospel

and someone has said that the core of the gospel is of course forgiveness of sins

and if I ask that can you preach the gospel to me, I'm not expecting that you read the gospel

of Luke to me but I want to hear the gospel of that. I mean, you all know

what I mean. But some of those speakers that was asked about that, they answered,

at least I remember one, that whole sermon is a gospel. Of course, this way

if we think about that, that gospel is good news of Jesus Christ. It's a gospel.

But in our spiritual language in this dear God's kingdom, I think that when we say, that we preach the gospel,

to me it tells that we preach the forgiveness of sins. It was one discussion.

Also, is there forgiveness in the sacraments, especially in the communion? And if there is

a forgiveness of sins, how it's in communion? It was one question. And what caused

some unrest and I think that it's quite similar, maybe here,

that some of those terms, like believers, my family members and my friends

and members of my home congregation, they told that some terms

which were used were not very clear or unambitious. Some believers also,

they felt that those terms had a new content or meanings, that something is behind

or is there something behind of that term, something new teaching? For example,

I can't remember was it used with this continually forgiveness, is there some new teaching

or is it familiar to us? I can't remember the details that how, but I felt that

many of those terms that we use, we can understand exactly right

or totally wrong. It depends how's my heart. And that's how I feel,

like last summer I was listening Summer Service Radio and there was some older brothers

that who were recalling spring services in Oulu like during sixties and seventies

when I wasn't, I wasn't born that time and they read some old Pevemes articles

and it was my father-in-law who wrote this article that they read that once,

it was something like that, that once again God blessed our spring services here in Oulu.

We were able to wash our wedding garments. It wasn't a problem for those brothers,

older believers who gathered to talk about all this matter. It wasn't a problem

during this time when this article was made. And I thought that

if my heart is right, I understand that nobody can corrupt this rope of righteousness

that Jesus made or His righteousness. But I wouldn't like to make a big problem

of that, that we have traveled and we wash our,

I remember when I was a child it was some brothers, they called

traveling clothes. It means simply that when we fall we take care of matters

and we put in a way. And also, also we had the questions that

or there was a distrust with some local boards and also with SRK board.

When I was called to serve in SRK board it was because it was a little bit

over this time. But also, I remember some of those

emails and texts and calls that people had

a real untrust with SRK board at that time.

It was one like a phenomena or what was going on. Also in my home congregation

we had a discussion that some of our ministers are law-minded. It was like

it wasn't a feeling or understanding of whole congregation but some individuals.

And every minister was Finnish minister. We had about 20 ministers

and everyone was Finnish minister. There were no connection to North America.

When I was called asked that is there more merciful sermons

in Finland than here? Is here more law-minded sermons?

I have to say that my own experience is that no. I have found

the same faith, same spirit and

those sermons that I have heard here they are really

fed my soul and my faith. When our

friends came to Finland and they came to Phoenix Church

and they listened sermons they said to us that be free

to be here. We have seen that you have home congregation here.

That's good. It touched my heart that they heard

the same same message than than

in Finland. And that way I think that what I have

faced those difficulties and teachings that kingdom

is exactly same. Battles are same.

Sad to say but in Finland one way it's a paradise

but other way it's not. And

congregation everywhere is battling the same

We have had exactly same questions.

It was one discussion in our board

in our congregation. Which are the duties of the

board? Do they have any spiritual responsibility

or not? It's only temporal organization.

When I was in my local board and I was

in SRK board I would say that

in SRK board we talk about more spiritual

matters difficulties concerns than in our

local board. In our local board we talk more that

oh we need a new roof and it's leaking

this one faucet in men's bathroom.

But many times we have also especially when we had

difficulties we had spiritual discussions

because work is spiritual. Of course

then board's work is also that way

spiritual. But I have never felt and that's

my very personal experience that I have

never been involved to congregation or Zion

that I have felt that local board

or SRK board or LLC

board here has raised

them about the congregation. That's what

I have to say with honest heart.

But many times I have met doubting

and from themselves sinful people

who has called to serve

and that's my very personal experience.

I know that maybe someone has problems,

untrust, but when I was called I have said that

even with these brothers I believe same way.

They have never taught me wrong

doctrine or unliving word

and that's my own experience

and I also want to say it here

today. It doesn't mean that any board

would be made or formed by perfect

people. Also we had in Finland

this question that which are acceptable

reasons to release minister from speaking.

It has happened during 10 years many times

in different congregations and in my

mind you can maybe easily find someone

from Finland who disagree me but what's

my picture honest picture was has

been that those sermons has caused confusion.

It's very like a general saying

right, has caused confusion. What does

it mean? In practice in real life in

our home congregation it meant that somebody

didn't come to services. I have I have more fear

than joy. I don't hear

right voice. It was part of my life

and I want to share it with

you. Sometimes it was also

discussed that should there be

doctrinal biblical reasons. I think

that if it find it from Bible that it's

a biblical reason if sermon caused

division. Somebody says amen and somebody

says that's not right. Of course being a

minister myself I feel that

if you hear my sermons

and it caused something unusual

I hope and I pray that

you come to correct me because it's also

my personal faith. But it's

not only my personal faith. If my

sermons are not edifying congregation

or feeding the flock if there's some

way wrong voice I hope

and pray that God would give me humble

heart and that I would say that we

have many many other ministers and gifts

I don't have to serve but because

of my own personal faith

I would like to be corrected that why

it was but I also feel like it

has maybe said many times that I have

no right to similar questions

what's the right using

of church law of Christ as

Adrian just told that it

has given to personal souls

here also preaching and

teaching That word, do we hear the voice of good shepherd or not? Also, this reading scriptures and doctrinal books, it was emphasized quite a lot during those recent years. And that's, of course, good.

But to me, it's like it was said in some comment. I agree that it should be more like a fruit of faith, the joy to go to read God's word. But if it takes a place of reading God's word, or some way I felt that it's, what's behind that if I, there can be also a question that I can't trust that I hear right teaching.

If that's the reason to go to read God's word, I think that then we have to ask that why I, I can't trust that I hear. I have heard many times here, like, not clearly said, but I have asked openly.

And I ask once again that, is here wrong teaching? Because in some of those messages, I feel that here has been wrong teaching, or here is still wrong teaching. I have been here only quite a short time.

But, personally, I haven't heard wrong, wrong teaching. And, of course, it's a matter that we have to discuss if there is. And also, do we remember that it is Holy Spirit who opens this God's word?

Christ is center of sermons, of course. And we can never preach too much about Christ. But also, all time in this living Christianity, sermons has included. And we have to address where we can find Christ, the body of Christ, God's holy congregation.

And we can never separate this one from, from another. And I, personally, I feel that, that about this congregation that, that around me, someone, they lost a view of this beauty or value of the congregation.

And it started to, to seem more like a group of people. And, and how these people, they have difficulties and faults and, and sins. And of course, that's a right. But is it a whole picture of God's congregation?

And also, this, this term I, I heard first time in Finland that, that, that during some of those discussions, somebody's feeling was later that he or she was spiritually violent or bullied. And of course it's a serious saying what does it mean and why it's used.

And also when we had discussions, my experience was that unfortunately sometimes it turned more that how this discussion turned to review how the matter has taken care than what's the original matter behind that.

And what's the real matter. And maybe sometimes it was just that we have heard here that it's drying up and a person who has started to discuss with right heart, believing heart, when he or she is in the middle of the discussion,

when those difficulties continues and heart dries up and there is more and more anger, feeling that I'm bullied. And it can be. But if we live with those matters, there can be also bitterness

and then easily we sin. Easily we sin. And like Christian doctrine says, sin always includes unbelief. That's why.

That's why it's so dangerous. Sin always includes unbelief. And like I visited during a lunch with Bruce and like you asked me that what we can do, what we can do when we have those difficulties.

I thought that there is one old medicine that if I have problem with Dwayne, I go to Dwayne and I put my arm around you and I say to Dwayne that, Dwayne, I have had something against you. That can you forgive me this and all my sins from heart?

Sometimes I have to ask that, do you give forgiveness to me from heart? And ask myself. And if we ask for forgiveness through the Holy Spirit with believing heart and we preach that gospel through the Holy Spirit, we can, we can't, we must not,

never doubt is there power of, of gospel. And does it really happen what it, it, it promises. That I can believe all my sins forgiven in Jesus name and precious blood. And if I receive this by faith, all things are easier.

All things are easier to, to discuss. But this kind of humbleness we can, we can't, I can't make myself. And, and only God can, can make this, this humbleness and I think that, that, that's, that's a work of enemy.

It's not. And, and he lives in our flesh that, that we, we dry so easily up. And also I have fear many times if I, I hear like a strong attitude or, or, or this kind of feeling that I think that, which makes all of us very fearful.

But when the, the blood drops of Jesus has come, has received into the heart, there is always this power. And why I said that if they are received, sometimes man's heart is so hard that it, it goes over.

It's not received. And then those difficulties continues. There is no good soil. And it keeps this soil of my heart dry and hard.

It, it doesn't help. It, it, it goes, it passes by my heart. This blood of Jesus is never lacking of power of God as, as Bible says. And we don't have to doubt that.

But how's my, my heart? And that's so, so simple that, that I, I feel. I, maybe if there is a later time I, I can say something about those, those doctrinal matters.

But, but now, now that's my, my thoughts. And I also, I, it was same time nice to come. But same time I had also fear. And I felt that I have nothing to give.

Given I'm not like a fighting person. I'm, I'm, I'm fragile person in, in my heart. And, and this kind of difficulties make, make me very, very fearful. But, but I know that God's congregation is presented here.

And I want to ask that can I hear also gospel because of my sins and doubts and fears. In all sins forgiven in Jesus name, amen. I wish to believe. Right behind you.

Yes, it, it, it was mentioned that our ministers they are in the love of our congregation. I can say after this four years that their sermons they have been scriptural. And these both brothers, they typically go through the text verse by verse explaining scriptures with scriptures.

And I haven't heard them to speak a wrong doctrine. And they have preached the gospel. So I would say that unless I have shown otherwise, I think that these invitations, our ministers, they were wrong. And that is one reason for a broken love.

Often I hear these terms like confusion, cloud, can't put a finger on it. And a lot of these kinds of expressions, to me, they don't really mean much. They're almost like sometimes empty expressions. They can easily be misused against others without really needing to explain anything.

So in these situations, I think it's important we would discuss these issues in peace and love in more detail. And to get the power of the Bible. Lori Alioki, how do you state something, and I'd like a little more clarification.

Did you say that if a person hears the sermon and finds that they have to go read the scripture, that they're not trusting the spirit, that there might be maybe fault with the listener? Or what did you say?

What I tried to say, I apologize, my English. It's not my first language. But yeah. My experience, or what I know in Finland, that even though, and now we go to a very sensitive area,

that what it means if we say that it doesn't answer to my heart. Or I have also my own experience that I had a fear to listen to a sermon. I couldn't say that it was doctrinally wrong. But I shared this feeling with many.

And of course, first, I doubt that I'm wrong. But it was different than sometimes I almost sleep. And still, it's good. But what it caused, it was many times after that, discussions that what did you hear, and was it right?

And why I'm feeling this, that something is lacking. That was said also, that I didn't hear a gospel, something was lacking. And still, I can't say that it was doctrinally wrong. And if I think about services, why I go to services, I don't go that I would be seen from others.

But I go to get food and be glad because of gift of faith. And I'm totally okay that if my sermon, my sermons are not feeding that we can, maybe they are not always feeding. But I don't mean that.

There is some mistakes and weeks, but if it continues, that it causes unrest. Is that the meaning of services? I don't believe so. And otherwise, that it was like, maybe it was mentioned also here that we had a group who almost praised those sermons.

And once, after summer services, I was told that there was one good sermon I was wow I think that there was 25 good sermons

or 30 good sermons and this one sermon was separated, not separating but it was somebody

liked it and somebody was a little bit honest with that and I'm not saying that this brother wasn't believer

or those brothers when it was also asked that does it mean that they are not believing correctly

not necessary but to me it's also also and I have

to say that little bit like troubles me if I say that strongly

that it's a sin to me it can be also like a care of my congregation that Harry how's your matters now that why

we hear this kind of voice and to me it's like some way

it's a mystery that we don't have any kind of analyzers here or censors that it's green

it's red it goes like okay 65% it was green it's good sermon he can continue but also that do we

give any value for this that like I simply believe that also God's

Holy Spirit works in my heart and and and many times mainly my heart rejoices now that's the way I believe and and and

I have read these days also but it didn't open to me the same way that now it opened for brother who is serving me and and also I want to add that to me it never happens like randomly

but I'll let us take him down no it then it would would come I understand from my police

flesh that if i don't like this person of if he's not close to me let us take him down or he bought new new car and i'm envy let us take him down he's proud proud no nothing like that but if it continues that that of course it's time to visit and and to me uh like like i told it's it's it's

a congregational matter too that that if i start to say that god is not trying god or or something what's what's wrong but but to me it's difficult and i hope that that you can take it right way that i'm not saying that it's like a harris emotion that oh this brother is wrong he's

indifferent spirit no but congregation uh calls ministers and takes care of them and and and corrects them my my oldest son was called to serve a month ago and okay we were we're in phoenix and and i we were listening me and my wife this this event i remember when dear brother

told to congregation final words that that take care of him with love grace and truth it was to me most touching place because i remember when he followed my path and went to helsinki to beginning his theological studies i say that emil i have one matter to you remember your younger brother august who passed

away when he was 18 months i had started one year earlier by theologian studies and i remember those special doubts of theologians oh it's so simple sermons in in your home are why why they never talk about this content of communion it's not so simple why those sermons

are so simple you know now more and i i didn't have any doubts that time when he passed away that did he get to heaven and i remember when i prayed that god give me this small boy's faith always and keep me small i don't need any more than the small boy's faith and with this faith i can

freely study as much as i i need and want make like three different doctoral theses about theology if i have childlike faith it's not a problem then and i told him that emily remember your younger brother keep this of course it's god who who keeps keeps us in this childlike faith but but but don't grow yourself because it's dangerous

don't elevate yourself use those gifts that god has given to you you and and be humble and i think that this being humble is on the path of of faith is important on the path of serving is important and and i don't see Any other way than discuss if there is a question of my sermons or some other sermons.

Let us discuss what it disturbs. I don't remember who gave this sermon about these very, very sensitive and difficult matters about receiving children. Oh, I know in my former work that how sensitive and difficult question it can be for believing parents.

How many times I have asked when they have come to me that, oh, do you know any believing doctor that you can go to? I'm a poor pastor. It doesn't make me a doctor that I'm a minister. But we can always talk about this matter as believers.

How do we believe? And how there is many times. Times, times questions that we have no answers. But if it comes to this will from believing heart that God lead me, keep me in your congregation.

I have seen closely how he can take care of his children. I don't know if I responded to you, sister, but I hope so. You don't remember anymore my response. Just a comment.

There has been. Preacher brothers in this country that have been approached outside of this congregation with concerns over their some of their sermons and their response has been they're being attacked.

Now, I have a brother in Rockford that that had a concern with with a sermon that was spoken there. And I felt he used the church law across Christ. He went and approaches preacher brother and said that he didn't.

And after discussion, that preacher brother said that wasn't his intent. And they blessed each other. And he didn't he didn't feel that this brother needed to be taken down or a sermon taken down to take a rest.

And this preacher brother corrected himself. I don't know if it was his next speaking turn or what. You know, so that's just a couple of comments that there is speakers here that have been approached with their with concern.

But I think that the reality is that there is a lot of people who have said all this. And I would like to ask some of them. I mean, that's the reality. I'm Eric Skoog from Phoenix.

I have a couple comments. I believe that as a believer throughout all time. Our central question is, how are we saved? And that is the important matter to focus on.

Are we justified by faith? Or are we? As I have. Told some people.

I feel is happening, justified or saved by confession, and some righteous works of our own part. The Bible doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches we are justified by faith, and it's a gift of God, not of our own works. But as a believer, because we're believing, we do good

works as a matter of life. But I do have a question regarding this meeting. I had come here with the expectation that the LLC board was going to, as a corporate entity and individually, share their concerns with Wolf Lake, regarding Wolf Lake as a congregation, regarding the Wolf

Lake board, and regarding Wolf Lake ministers, if there is truly a concern. If there is truly a concern, those concerns should be addressed, not ignored, not sidestepped for talking about it another day. I have the question, because I have heard these comments, that is it, am I right in assuming or wondering whether you members of the LLC board,

corporately or personally, have gossiped about the Wolf Lake board? Wolf Lake, congregation, their board, their ministers. And is it possible that some of you could be creating unrest? And then the final point of question on my part is, Warren and I wrote a

letter back in April, which went out, and I asked for forgiveness for how it went out, because I felt it should have been discussed in our local congregation first. But we weren't making up things. We spoke to concerns that we had observed, things that we had heard spoken from the pulpit in

conversations of people's understanding or ministers' understandings of how doctrinal issues are believed in faith. And in that letter, we attempted in our way to briefly state how we understood those matters, with the hope that these matters could be spoken of and

and unity in faith restored. I've been puzzled that there's been such great reluctance to speak about any of those issues, which, from what I've seen, have caused division. But I also want to say that, in my own part, I've been greatly troubled with these issues, and I felt my own sinfulness,

and I want to hear that gospel. First of all, I, like the other brothers, have come here with my own sinfulness. And my name is not sinfulness, but it's Keith Warren Eme. Yoko just asked me to say my name. But I feel very lacking in this, and have

my own fleshly pride to deal with, and all the struggles of my own endeavor. And I ask, first of all, if I could believe my own sinfulness. own sins forgiven. But I want to be open with you, dear Wolf Lake brothers and sisters, and I want to remain hopeful, prayerful, that God can help us and to love in the truth.

For if we don't have love, as we heard already in the opening Bible verses that Phil read, and other speeches, we have nothing. And so I say that first of all to myself because I feel my own flesh so close. Of course, the question has arisen is what concerns you LLC brothers have about Wolf Lake. I will try to speak of those things,

I spoke to at the Monticello meeting, board members workshop, not specifically or only about Wolf Lake, but these things I feel are broader and broader concerns in North American Christianity. But I would also like to hear what concerns you folks here have about me,

about us, who serve in the central organization. Because I know there's much been said. I hear roundabout things that are said about me or about other brothers. And so I would encourage you also to be open in that regard. So for the last four plus years, four and a half years,

we've had these discussions. And we've, I think we have to say that we've differed on understanding. And there's something that has prevented the unity that we have once enjoyed and shared. What exactly it is, God only knows. But first of all, speak to the question of Darwin's sermon,

from the 2015. services, and basically what Steve Hadia has already said are my thoughts about the sermon. I would say just in a general sense that the text wasn't specifically applicable to mother's health issues, but much of what Darwin said in the sermon was correct, but there were

also those concerning statements that have been noted as well that caused question and concern and confusion that could have been taken wrong, as Steve mentioned. With regard to what Ann Vilkama said here, that why are we not allowing that matter to rest when Darwin has asked for forgiveness?

And I'll say that I was very... Personally... And I know many brothers share this with me, I was very happy about Darwin. The discussion, I shouldn't say about Darwin, but the discussion that we had at the speaker's

camp in 2016 when these things were discussed and the gospel was preached and was left behind. But I think it's also... And I personally do not... That forgiveness stands, and I don't hold anything against Darwin specifically about

that sermon and the fact that he asked for the gospel. We preached the gospel and we all, I think, joined in that. But I don't feel like I have, for example, or brothers that I serve with have kept that discussion.

But even in this discussion this morning, we've heard concerns from you folks here about why there was concern over that sermon. So I think that discussion has kept going largely because there are those that don't agree with the fact that there were concerns, there should have been concerns over it and

it shouldn't have been taken. And that is, I think, the reason why the discussion continues about that. With regard to withholding forgiveness, which Jim spoke to some of this in the beginning, but then I'll add some thoughts to it as well.

And I agree 100% with what he brought out. But I want to point out that this... This discussion about forgiveness and withholding forgiveness, my first recollection of it was in 2011 at the meeting of the Minnesota boards, or Midwestern boards and speakers at the Rockford

Church, which we have every year. The question that was asked there, I, at that meeting, I had outlined the 70s and 80s, the difficulties that we had had here in America. As well as in Finland, that was the topic of our discussion there.

And I kept a little introduction on that. And SRK had just published some materials in the Päivämies regarding their difficulties with the 70s. And I borrowed from that and also spoke to something specific to our country.

And then the question came up about these times in the 70s. In the 80s, when the gospel wasn't preached, that, you know, and I had already stated in my comments, that was it correct? And of course, we know that there were times that it was not correct and that errors were

made in not preaching the gospel in that time. But then the question was specifically asked, well, could there ever be a time, not now referring to the 70s and 80s, but could there ever be a time when the gospel could not be preached?

And Brothers gave scriptural examples of such times. And that's pretty much where the discussion ended. But we also discussed, if I recall correctly, the importance of that the gospel is unconditionally preached.

And we are not to evaluate someone's penitence or someone's heart. But if we go to those lengths to say there could not ever be a time, I don't think that that matches up with scripture. But I want to emphasize that there's no one that I have talked to, nor have I witnessed

it in our country, our continent, that there's been a desire to withhold forgiveness. And that's the key. There's no one that I have talked to, nor have I witnessed it in our time. Yes, there were those difficulties that have been talked about already in the 70s and 80s.

But today, I don't see that this is a problem. And I think it's very important that we remember the context of that question. There was not any desire on the part of anyone to look for situations where we would not preach the gospel.

Of course, in discussions, sometimes in discussing things thoroughly, go this way and that way, and trying to even look at hypothetical situations, which is not profitable, not beneficial. But that was the basic question.

And brothers can clarify if I've not characterized that correctly. Then after the 2016...or at the 2016 speaker's camp. minister's camp at Stony Lake. I was so happy that Saturday night. I remember the personal joy that I felt and that other brothers felt, and I remember exactly where I was standing in the

sanctuary when I visited with Darwin or Phil or maybe both, and we preached the gospel to each other, and it felt so good, and we joined together as brothers, all of us, in the spirit of that forgiveness and those discussions that took place. Yet I have to say, dear Wolf Lake brothers

and sisters, that I was puzzled by what happened after that camp, that I expected, since we had been discussing these things with Wolf Lake board members, that I was puzzled by what happened and speakers, that surely there'd be some communication from the Wolf Lake, other Wolf Lake

brothers, other than Darwin and Phil, that would have joined into those discussions that we had at camp and even the realization on the part of some of the Wolf Lake brothers that a need to join into that which happened at camp and to even take...

their own way. But it seemed to me like the joy evaporated. It seemed that perhaps the rest of the Wolf Lake board, or some of the Wolf Lake board, I should say, I don't want to come to... jump to conclusions, but that somehow there wasn't unity with the decision or the conclusions of the camp and that which was

preached there. So, I could be wrong, and if I'm wrong, I know I will hear from you, but that's how I got left feeling about it. And that's gotten left troubling me.

Then, I've been asked a few times, have I said that you can speak too much about Christ? I don't remember my exact words. But I do know what intention I have had when I have spoken of brothers that have preached.

And I would say that, even be direct enough to say that some of the speeches of the Wolf Lake brothers, sermons, have raised this question in my mind. That there tends to be a focus on Christ and the written word, but an avoidance of speaking of the Holy Spirit, the congregation, and the endeavor.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher in the congregation, and the Holy Spirit is the key to understanding Scripture. That's been a concern that I've had, and I want to be open about that. When matters of the church are in the hands of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the key to understanding Scripture. That's been a concern that I've had, and I want to be open about that.

When matters are right in the congregation, there's no conflict between the Word, the congregation, and the Holy Spirit. They are inseparable. It's disturbing to me that in this time, I hear voices that seem to want to separate them from each other.

The Word from the congregation, for example. And we can find lots of people in this community. Or in these surrounding communities that speak very warmly of Christ and of God's Word. But if you don't have the congregation, you don't have the Word.

If you don't have the Word, you don't have the congregation. And if I didn't get it too far off, I believe those are thoughts that Luther has expressed. And so the connection to the congregation is so important.

And the Spirit of God works in the congregation of God. Also, in our time, we've heard some sermons where it seems like, like what Hari referred to, that we speak of the general gospel, or that the Word or the sermon is the gospel, which it is.

But there's an avoidance, or almost skirting around directly preaching the core message, the message of the gospel, the forgiveness of sins, the absolution from the pulpit. And so that's a concern that I have had.

And I'm not saying I myself, I alone, but I can only speak for myself at this meeting. I have to say that in some of our discussions with the Wolf Lake board members, it's come across a bit in this way that they're somehow more enlightened about matters of justification

and want to teach the believers about these things. And that has not felt good. Justification is a very important topic. It's central. But I've been concerned about the nature in which it has been discussed.

Sometimes the demanding tone that is around it, that you must understand, and so forth. Doctrine is important, but simple childlike faith is what saves us. And I've lamented that these discussions about doctrine, they're so important, but I wish that they could take place in a spirit of freedom and joy.

And love as they should be. The care of the mother, the congregation of God, not only the local congregation, and the mutual understandings of God's congregation are very important. And I have to say, sometimes I have that Bruce, my childhood friend,

brought out there in the beginning that Wolf Lake has been accused of being an island, and so forth. And I have to say that sometimes those kinds of thoughts have come to me. And I may be very wrong, but I can't help what I have sensed and felt.

Roger spoke at the board member's workshop on April 13th. And he expressed the concern about spirits, as some have already touched on today. And the fact that if someone is in a wrong spirit, they're not in a saved condition of heart.

And I agree with Roger. I don't remember how he put it, but that was the idea I got left with. And we must be very careful when we're speaking about wrong spirits and differences of spirits. Because if someone's not in a right spirit, they are not in a saved condition.

But yet, we are in the hand of the Lord Jesus, and can be cared for and helped, and matters can be cared for. And even as Scripture states, that if there are those that would be in such a condition of heart, that unless they repent, the Lord Jesus will eventually spew them out of His mouth,

as Scripture states. But what I felt, and I personally have felt very careful and sensitive about speaking about wrong spirits, but the Bible does speak about false spirits. But what I felt from Roger's speech is that maybe another way of looking at this is,

what have I done? What have I caused that would make the believers wonder about my spirit? Where am I? Like the disciples said, is it I?

I need to wrap up here to give others time to speak, but Eric Skoog spoke about the letter that he and Warren had written. And I think if there are things that you want to discuss in there, we certainly can.

I felt that personally, I'd just say in a general sense, that there are errors in the letter, and the manner in which it was written and sent out didn't feel good. I know Eric has already taken care of that publicly,

and I join in that forgiveness. But there are many things, as someone, I think Jim mentioned in the beginning, that are correct in there and accurate, but there are also things that are inaccurate

and perhaps not even doctrinally correct. Maybe you could touch on what those are. Yeah, I want to wrap this up first, and we could get back to that,

but maybe someone else can help, but I can share some thoughts. The other thought that I've had is that we speak about the 70s and 80s, and I really wonder if there still isn't some bitterness,

some residue, maybe bitterness is too strong of a word, but some residue from that time. Are those families that were affected more? And I certainly, to a degree, count myself in that time,

because, as you know, my father, some of the caretaking that happened around my father wasn't correct, even though there was need for care and need for discussion.

But yet I rejoice over that, that he was able to forgive and move on from those things and also did not deny his own faultiness and carried those brothers that cared for him.

With forgiveness and love. But I wonder, is there still some residue from that time? I hear comments that pop up regarding specifics of those times, even stated by people that weren't part of it.

So I gather that that's a discussion that's ongoing, and if there is residue and bitterness that is carried from that time, those can be visited about. If there's individuals that have caused offense,

myself included, I want to visit about those and care for whatever I may have caused. But as we know, the vast majority of those brothers that were directly involved, more directly involved,

have gone to rest. And we carry them with forgiveness and love. And I've heard some, even comments, questioning whether one of these brothers

that was involved in caretaking of years ago, did he gain the victory? Did he leave a testimony? It's pretty disturbing to hear.

So may God speak to us, dear brothers and sisters. My words are weak. I want to be totally honest. I want to be totally open with you.

And I've tried to do that, but I ask again if I can believe my sins forgiven. I'm willing to speak more to the letter if need be, but I know there are other brothers that can share this mic as well.

Maybe if you would briefly, I guess, since you feel that there are the errors there, I could open a discussion into what those are. Why don't we see if there's another brother

that wants to speak to that person? Sure. I'd be willing, though. Eric?

Can I also speak? Tim? Oh, I guess Jim reminded me I'm Eric Jurmu. I so easily forget that.

But I also somewhat hesitate to speak to that letter, you know, without having prior opportunity to visit with Eric and Warren. On the other hand, perhaps it's okay in that it was sent out openly.

I didn't receive it from them. I'm not sure who I received it from. But I know it was sent out quite broadly. And so in some ways it feels to be a kind of an open declaration per se.

And so perhaps in that regard, you know, as the apostle says, and I don't know if I'm taking it out of context, but he says it, that those that we can rebuke openly so that all would hear

and so we can also be cared for equally as well. There were a few things in that letter that stood out to me. And one was there was some discussion around the caretaking of the 70s and 80s and referencing the caretaking of those elders

of those times and how in that letter it referenced those caretakers having their own aims. And I don't know that to be accurate. I don't know what the aims of those brothers were.

I know that as now we have been asked to serve in our day of serving, we serve in weakness. You know, we've come here. We've attended meetings, discussions.

We come because the congregation has asked us to serve and we so often serve with weakness. And I also feel it's the same from my many years of serving on boards from the West Coast and in Phoenix and Colorado

and now my time of serving here again in Minnesota. I've served with many, many, many brothers. I don't know how many different boards. We just remembered the passing of Ed Wisery in Longview.

And I served with Ed as a young man there in Longview and we had difficulties, troubling times in the 80s. And he was such a dear brother. And the board that served during that time,

they served in weakness and fear and trembling. And during those years, formative years in Colorado and years of serving in Phoenix, I didn't feel ever once that there was this kind of a servant

that was there serving with their own aims. And so by addressing it this way, it cast seeds of doubt. On those former brothers who served in weakness. I think this is very damaging to the work.

Those years were not easy. But they were needed. The care was needed. I needed care.

And the congregation needed care. And from those days, we experienced the love, the unity was restored. And we see the evidence of all of that. The building of Stony Lake Camp here in the north.

The addition of churches, speakers. The work of God's kingdom has gone forward with such vigor. If it was so that these former brothers had served and went to those caretaking meetings with their own aims,

I really feel that God would not have blessed. But through this, God blessed. There was reference in that letter to works righteousness. And stating that now there is this comparison

between circumcision of the time of the apostles, the meetings there in Jerusalem, and how that was viewed as unnecessary. And now comparing that to this grace gift of confession.

And how this confession now has become a work. I don't believe this is the teaching of God's kingdom. It may be a weakness in some. Myself, I haven't always understood so clearly

what confession means, what the sacraments are. So, I won't for a moment say that there isn't weak and even wrong understandings around this matter of confession or the sacraments.

But yet, this isn't the teaching of God's kingdom. The teachings of God's kingdom is this, that confession is a grace gift that God has given to each of us,

to use, because he knows we are sinful. And so, by stating this, that this now is works righteousness, that's not freeing at all,

but rather, it is binding. Because now it's forcing the weak believer the one who needs to hear the gospel more often, perhaps than another,

to be reassured that their sins surely are forgiven. It puts them in a box. And now they can't use this gift that God has so graciously given to his kingdom.

So, these kinds of wrong understandings and wrong emphases and the wrong terminology, it's not freeing at all. But when the believer hears these things,

the weak, simple, childlike believer, they're fearful, because all of that which they've learned, and I've even heard some of these congregation members,

not only here, but throughout North America and Zion, say that how I believed as a child, I don't believe that way any longer, because they become more knowledgeable or awakened.

It's a dangerous thing. Our forefathers who went before us lived and traveled by grace, under that same grace care that we travel.

And to introduce topics or subjects to continuous forgiveness, it brings the weak ones, the tired ones,

worry and doubt. That is God's kingdom going a different direction. It needs to stay in the footsteps of the Good Shepherd.

And this is what the fear is. And then this mixing up of the church law, of which Adrian and who else was mentioned, mixing up this church law of Christ

and the caring for the ministers, it's not accurate. There's needs for both. The church law is a very important gift

and a tool that God has entrusted to us to use. But I would hope and pray that God will give us this gift. And I've said many times to my own children,

to congregation members, that I know that I'm not very approachable. And I also have to recognize that as I've grown now as a grandfather,

it would not be an easy thing for my grandson to come and care for grandpa. If it means that he needs to send his father

or his uncle to speak to me, it doesn't matter. Care for me. This is that which I think

the essence of God's kingdom has been. To care for us. Weak servants. Weak travelers.

Why do we have to be so precise and demanding of exactly how these things need to happen? It takes away the freedom

of God's kingdom. It becomes a demand that you have to live so perfectly you cannot err.

Fear. This is the fear. This is what I've felt through these days and days of battle.

I'm weary. There's no question I'm weary. I'm mostly weary because I know

that in battle not all warriors return. I'm worried for my own soul's salvation.

I only serve with those few gifts or I try to serve with only those few gifts

that God has given. When we talk about confession, the Bible's filled with admonition

to put sin away. And in that letter it took this putting sin away and in some ways in my mind

it placed it into mockery that what is this putting sin away? Does it mean putting it here or putting it there?

To me it means putting it in the sea of grace through the preaching of the gospel, through the forgiveness of sins.

The apostle has written in the book of Hebrews, cast all of your cares aside. It speaks very openly

and clearly throughout God's word through the gospel or the epistles of John about this need of caring

and putting sin away. A clean conscience as the apostle writes to Timothy and to Titus

is so important. These are basic and elementary tenets of our faith. But when these things now

start to come into question, this is that which the children of God fear. My father was one of them.

He didn't have much facilities left one year ago. He didn't know much, but he still remembered

the power of the gospel. And he felt the storms that were brewing and he worried

that he may get home in that same old fashioned way that the former saints, he needed that reassurance.

And I also need that same reassurance that my many doubts and shortcomings

in all of this work and my lackings and understanding are weak.

I wonder if I'll make it happen because they're so weak. I don't have great knowledge of doctrine, scripture,

but I want to believe. I still hear the gospel and I believe my own sins forgiven. We've all sins forgiven

in Jesus' name. Maybe if we could hear I think from Eric or Warren if they want to speak

to those concerns raised from the letter. All right. First of all,

I'll address confession. Confession in our letter was confusing, so I'll just tell you

very simply how I believe about confession. I firmly believe that I would not be believing

without the grace gift of confession. I look at it exactly as Luther did.

Basically confession is not a demand. It's not how we're saved, but our flesh is weak

and there are times where it does cling and we do need the gospel and when I say the gospel,

the forgiveness of sins. And I would fight to retain that with my life. Some of these things

I do think answer to as far as discomfort goes, I think answer to my reference before

of the speech made where criticism of the LLC board is criticizing God himself.

I do believe there is some dynamics there that are part of this discomfort or problem.

Darwin's sermon to answer what Keith said, that was actually brought up by Jim right in the very beginning,

his sermon from 2015. The 1980s was the work of Satan. It absolutely was.

I watched people regularly pleading for forgiveness and it being withheld. I watched people being bound

on too many cases. Among them I watched high school children being bound. That is not the work

of the Holy Spirit. It was a spirit, but it was bad. And there were people

that had mental breakdowns over that time. Accusations that there's serious, serious problems

with them. But by the way, we don't know what they are. And you're not penitent enough.

So we can't forgive you. Well, some of those people managed to stay in faith. Some of them never came back.

That is not, that is not the way that things should be done. And I've never understood

the reluctance to clearly state what happened then as being wrong.

And why, and why it stopped. I know we had a time, many years of peace after that.

But these persecutions today remind me of that. Accusations with nothing behind them. And it is different.

There are ministers that have been taken down that we don't, we couldn't point to doctrine.

We couldn't point to anything. But the congregation was definitely behind them coming down.

So I understand that. There's a difference this time. There are ministers being taken, that have been taken down

that there is not good agreement that they should be. And that is a big, big difference. As far as the

disinviting of these ministers, I do believe, without telling these brothers what's wrong with them,

we gotta think about how anxious would it make you when you are dealing with the most important thing in our life,

the thing that we would forsake our spouses over, our faith. When somebody's accused

that they have something seriously wrong with them, but it's not told what that is, it's horrible.

Some people have had to go to professional counseling to deal with that. Some people have gone on

anxiety medications. The list goes on. I personally don't understand the lack of empathy on that.

I can't understand it for the life of me. And those of, I believe that some of you

here in this room have some responsibility with that. Let's say,

as far as withholding forgiveness goes, in 2016, three of the Phoenix ministers, they were young ministers,

they came back and they were talking about that we needed to figure out when not to forgive.

That was very, very scary. The congregation did have a discussion on it and almost unanimously rejected that.

Those three ministers did repent of that, but that was a very scary thing of going back to that terrible time.

That's what I got to say right now. As far as the little nits and nats of the, I guess I do have

some more things to say. As far as the little nits and nats in the letter, as I said before,

I'd be shocked if there wasn't some errors in there. And another thing, that I think we need to be

very direct and clear on, I personally was raised in the confession doctrine. That is a scary place to be.

I remember being involved in conversations with others that can you imagine if you got in an accident

and died and there was a sin you hadn't confessed, you would go to hell. That is the confession doctrine.

And I have no problem with people that believe that, stating that. That's how I was taught.

But it's not right. And I think with the right hearts we can talk about that and come around.

I think that some of you here on the LLC were taught that. And at some point, we understand that there is grace

that does cover, if we are believing and have faith, we will be saved. Does that mean that we throw away

confession and the forgiveness of sins? Absolutely not. We need that to keep faith

and keep strength and keep journeying. And I guess that's all I got right now.

Eric, do you want to talk? If I might here, I don't know how to start this off, but I do have to say

what's a demonstration of what I have noticed to be a very disturbing pattern of behavior.

And that is what I listened to when Keith was talking. This accusation or using concern as accusation

and to cast dispersions on people's faith. And then, either privately or publicly.

And then to refuse to actually discuss what those concerns are and what is the basis

of those concerns. That behavior is wrong. This is Eric Skoog with Phoenix. In response to those comments

that were made, I became aware that there was something happening in 2016

when three of our ministers, and Warren referenced it, came back from the minister's workshop, I think it was May of 2016,

with this, what they called, new understanding that there are times when as believers

we withhold forgiveness. And in our board meeting, they shared this and spent over an hour

talking about examples of when we could do this. We spoke about that for that board meeting

and the next two board meetings. And our board agreed that that's not correct. As believers,

when somebody asks for the gospel, we preach the gospel. And we let God do the work. And we will see

if the appropriate fruits show. Our congregation had a discussion that fall regarding that same matter.

And again, rejected that, withholding doctrine. Or understanding, maybe it would be better.

And these issues of confession, I concur. And we wrote in that letter that we believe

what Luther says about confession is correct. We use it as a grace gift to support us in faith.

But it is not what saves us. Faith is what saves us. With respect to, I didn't really understand,

Eric Jurmu, what you mentioned about circumcision in that letter, because there is no place

in that letter where it talks about circumcision. I checked while you were speaking. So I can't respond to that.

But I do believe that wherever possible, with respect to the church law of Christ, we are instructed to use it.

That's the very words of Jesus telling us how to address matters of concern within the church, where there's concern or trouble

or doubts or fears or anxiety or misunderstandings between believers. We want to keep the matter as small as possible

so we can restore and protect that unity and love. It's not appropriate to gossip about people behind their back

and with other people. But I did want to speak to one issue which Keith had mentioned. Jim Frantti and Keith

and I guess Steve Hadia also brought up that issue of the 2015 Sermon of Darwin's. I don't know how you look at the matter,

but to me, and I heard that sermon, and sure there were a few sentences I might have reworded differently,

but it was clear what the intent was and I think the proper spirit was there. But I get the feeling that you hold this against Darwin

and you have not forgiven him for this. This is four years by my calculation and I believe he's asked for forgiveness a number of times

and I really don't understand why it keeps coming up as something that's a concern with Wolf Lake and or Darwin.

I forgot the other thing was the disinviting of the ministers. To my understanding, in no way does a local board

have the authority, not by any stretch of the imagination, to make a major decision like that without their congregation's authorization.

Eric, I think there's a question about your comparison of circumcision to confession. Do you want to clear anything up there?

I don't remember exactly either. I don't have the document in front of me. I was remembering that there was this reference

in that article to what it was the circumcision in the Old Testament and how that was cared for

in the meeting in Jerusalem and how that is likened now to this wrong doctrine of confession. But I was remembering

and I could be remembering wrong. So my apologies that I don't have the document in front of me.

So we can clarify that. I don't know that it's an important thing but I just don't have a way of checking it right now.

Sorry. Keith, I think your name was mentioned too. Did you want to respond at all

to Joe's comment? I still state what I did with regard to Eric Skoog's comment that I have,

I feel I carried Darwin with forgiveness and join in the forgiveness of the 2016 minister's camp.

If I'm not mistaken, there were Wolf Lake members that brought this matter up this morning.

I'm not saying that Jim didn't bring it up but there were Wolf Lake members that spoke to it

and were questioning still that matter. If I'm mistaken, I'm mistaken. But with regard to what Joe said, I feel that I quite specifically

spoke my concerns whether they be right or wrong. So I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

There's a couple back here that have been waiting for a minute. Can I just quickly speak to Eric's comment?

Sure. Eric said that I and Keith and Steve have brought up about Darwin's sermon and wondered if we're holding that

still against Darwin. I'd like to clarify that the only thing I brought up was what was the purpose

of the very first meeting between Wolf Lake and LLC. That was my only statement. I didn't bring it up

to discuss Darwin's sermon. In fact, I think Darwin would join with me in saying that between us

there are no hard feelings or reservations that I have towards him or that he has towards me.

We are brothers. And so I didn't bring it up to discuss anything further about that sermon.

And I really agree with those who have said why don't we lay that question to rest. I don't question how Darwin believes

about the matter of Darwin. It's a matter of abstinence. And I agree with what Bruce said earlier. He quoted me,

so I better agree with what I said. And then also with what John Lethler read. So I did not bring it up for the purpose of discussing

any more of that sermon. Back there. Yep. Okay.

Yeah, let's do it real briefly and then we'll go there. Go ahead. Okay.

In response to Eric's question, on page five of that document, what I read is, the desire to add some of man's work

to Christ's righteousness appears to have misled some in our day also. Instead of circumcision, as in the early church,

the issue is private confession. A common phrase is to put sin away. While the phrase itself is harmless, what exactly does it mean?

Who is putting and where is away? Victoria Pickerainen. I am just really distressed and I hope that God will help me speak

my heart. Keith, when you keep on bringing up the 80s and you say some family, I always take it that you're talking about my family.

And I am not bitter about the 80s. You came to my father's deathbed and you had your sins forgiven, both of you.

And I am not bitter. I said at a meeting, I don't know when, that I am scared that this time

is reminding me of the 80s. I was maybe 14 and I know that my parents went through a lot. And what I don't like

is that we can't talk about the 80s and that we're bitter. And I just feel like we are a free kingdom of God

and we can talk about whatever we want. And that we're being shut down when we want to talk about stuff. And Eric, when you talked about

being in a box about forgiveness of sins, maybe Wolf Lake feels like they're in a box. I feel like there's a huge, huge double standard.

And I feel like we are not showing charity and love for each other. And I liked what somebody said today about let's look at each other in the eye

and would we say this to your face? And we all gossip and it's getting to be slander. And I have to say this

and maybe I'm really out to lunch, but it was after a meeting and one of my friends came up to me and said, Victoria, I love you,

but I have to tell you something about Wolf Lake. And I said, what is it? And she said, they altered the tape

of the meeting. Now, what is that? That is evil surmising and that is what we are doing to each other.

We are evil surmising. We are, Wolf Lake is being put in a box. I'm being marked because I am friends with people in Wolf Lake.

They are dear sister and brothers in faith to me. My friends don't talk to me anymore. We have a huge problem. How are we going to solve this?

Nobody believes that once a believer, always a believer. I preach the gospel to my children, my husband and I.

I mean, you're saying if maybe Darwin and Phil, you know, speak differently. My mom told me about Keith. Keith is a comforter.

John is a teacher. We are not appreciating each other's gifts. That is what's happening. That is the only thing I can see

and I don't know what it is. And the devil is really having a heyday right now. We are going around and around the merry-go-round. And if we don't talk about these issues

to and just keep on talking, they're never going to end. And can you all forgive me for all my sins and no?

And then another thing, I have to say this because I've said this to people and if I can say it to people,

I want to say it in front of the church. When people say that they want to believe like a child, and this is what I feel, there have been many sermons lately

that I have listened to and I've thought, you know what, I don't feel that they have the love of Christ or for fellow believers in their sermon.

But I would never go up to somebody and say, I actually think that you need to rest. And if we are being childlike, let's visit with our brothers

and talk about what the differences are. And is there, I'm starting to wonder, you know, do people, I just don't know. I'll just stop.

Priscilla, I just want to say it's all about hearts Christianity. Hearts Christianity. And we got these rumors,

they go both ways. I had a dear friend that said, John Lethla's got to go. He believes in birth control and television.

Oh, how sad. I haven't, oh, can you believe it? And I know that everybody's got a television now on their computers and whatnot

if they know how to work it. I don't even know how to do email, but anyhow. But one other thing I had,

I had another thought too. Well, I can't think of it now, but I'll pass this to Dennis. Amy McElhenney from Ishpeming.

So I'm here because I wanted to hear with my own ears what I have been hearing rumors of for four years or more. And first of all, I have friends,

if you want to say it this way, I don't know how else to say it, on both sides of these discussions. And the friends on the one side,

have warned me about Wolf Lake and others in Minneapolis and Rockford. And the things that they've told me are slander. They're just not true.

A lot of it is made up or misunderstandings. I don't even know how they could come up with some of this stuff. Because I have gone to those people and talked and found out the truth.

You know? So what's happened to me is that we've gone to a couple camps at Haskab. And the one camp I went to,

and I had four people come up to me at that camp telling me, oh, I'm so sorry about your sister and brother-in-law. And I'm like, what?

And they, oh, they're not believing correctly anymore. And I'm like, well, have you talked to them? And none of those four people had, actually, one of them did.

Three of those people had not talked to them. And they were good friends with Sue and Bruce before. And because of rumors about them, they stopped talking to them.

People have, the broken love has come from people's consciences being burdened from rumoring and slandering. Another person, a family member,

said, I'm not free with Sue and Bruce anymore. And I said, well, why not? Because they're not believing correctly. Well, have you talked to them?

No. And I told them that I think it's your conscience that makes you not free with them. And then my brother, Dan, just repented.

And this family member went and told all kinds of things to my brother, who has newly repented, that Wolf Lake Church is screwed up. There's problems in Minnesota.

I'm screwed up because I visit with people in Rockford and Wolf Lake. So my brother was asking me, and I said, Dan, just believe that it's not right

to do this to each other. There's nowhere in the Bible that gives us room to do it. The Eighth Commandment, if you read it, it's very clear.

And does it mean sometimes? Or does it mean always? So now my brother, who's just newly repented, is just wondering, where does he stand?

He wanted to come here today, but he couldn't. And he said to bring love and greetings to Wolf Lake, even though he doesn't know, and he's heard these slanders with childlike faith.

He wanted to love you all. And then for myself personally, there's a minister that has slandered me because of the same reasons.

We've had many, many discussions about faith, and I just begged him, please, can we just talk about personal faith? Can we talk, can we read this Voice of Zion article?

Can we read this article together and discuss it? Why do we have to talk about people and the rumors? And he himself has never talked to anyone in Wolf Lake. And I said, let's call right now.

We can call, we can call Darwin. We can call Phil. I have their numbers. Let's call them right now.

And he told me, no, I trust Keith Warnemy and John Bloomquist. I believe what they say. And also, there have been sermons

that I've heard in Ishpeming that are talking about this opposition group, and I can't remember exactly what the details are, but those sermons divide.

Slander divides. Anything that is not of faith, that is of our flesh, is against God,

the Triune God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not speak like that. I'll tell you the difference of another minister that I talked to.

I sent him a text, and I wanted to, because I tried many times to talk to this minister in our congregation over these matters,

and it didn't go anywhere. It ended up going where I'm not even sure who all in our congregation he has said that I'm not believing,

all because I think Wolf Lake are believers. Wolf Lake people are believers. So this other minister,

that I texted, I just said, hey, I need to talk to somebody. I need help over some of the issues

that have happened because of the church problems. And first of all, I want to be cared for.

And his response was, yes, call or text anytime, but first I want you to know that you are a child of God

and your sins have been atoned for on Golgotha. And I believed. I believed him.

That was the gospel message. That we can assure each other, we can encourage each other, that you can believe.

My brother, who is now doubting, what has he gotten into? I just keep reassuring him that you can believe.

And I don't know, I don't want to use the LLC board as a group. I don't want to say this

in a way that makes you feel that because you are a board member, that you are in this category. But if any of you

have slandered Wolf Lake, the quote-unquote opposition group, please take care of your matters. And what are you going to do

when you go back to your congregation today? Are you going to say that they don't understand,

they're still messed up? Because those are the reports that we've been getting from meetings that have happened

that have happened. Could I add one more thing onto that? I would just ask the LLC board

as a central body for the boards of all these North American Zion, on the subject of disinviting,

as far as I understand the status of Darwin and Phil, that they are possibly still not welcome

to speak in these other churches or put back on the speaking schedule. And I think until, unless those things have been put back

to where they were before those matters began, it's not resolved. And if it isn't resolved,

or if it is, it should be put somewhere where all North American Zion can see it.

Because the disinviting was done before everyone. I think as brothers and sisters in faith, after loving God,

if we're capable of doing that, then the next thing we need to do is love each other. And leaving not only Phil and Darwin,

but their families and their wives as some kind of spiritual untouchables is inexcusable.

It needs to be resolved. And until those things are done, in the eyes of people who aren't right

in the middle of these things, we don't see the resolution. Is there any on the LLC board, I guess,

that would want to address that question of whether there are concerns at this time for Darwin and Phil? Yeah, while you're at it,

maybe Keith can answer when the appropriate time to withhold forgiveness is. With respect to the 80s,

you said mostly it was incorrect. That left the door open. When is it? Is it okay?

What I meant by that is I'm not going to say that every situation was wrong. I can't, I'm not God,

I can't say that. But I emphasize that grave errors were made in that regard and God help us.

I just want to, Ann Vilkama, touch on the matter of the 80s. Now everybody knows my parents, my two aunts,

and their husbands in Longview, it went year after year, they went there, the work committee, to put them in

or spirit. And I mean it takes a toll. I know my father called one day and he said,

Ann, I'm supposed to dig, dig deeper. What happened in our house? And I said, Dad,

it was a beautiful home, you don't need to dig. This is when I was 26 and probably 10 months pregnant.

Then my mom's blood pressure was so off the chart and I knew that one of the head guys at the work committee,

I heard he said, we're going to go out there and bind the Alajoki sisters. And I thought, wow, that's crazy

because how they have humbleness of heart, I mean they repented all the time. I said, Mom, you've got to go

to the hospital. She spent the whole week in the hospital. So I'm not bitter,

but what we need to look at, what should we have learned? So at that time, we had a group of men

under the work committee that some strange spirit moved them to go across the nation and put all these people,

you know, in these spirits. And then come to find out later, a few years later, there was no such thing

as the Kososhian spirit. It was an oddball thing that came out of the left field. And that caretaking most time

was not right. Then another thing, there was these people could never be free

because then came this coin term. Oh, have you seen so and so? Well, are they coming to church? Are they free?

I mean, it went on and on and on. And in fact, my father had a joke about it. Oh, are you free?

Because they got battered and badgered all the time. Another thing, same terminology was used.

And this is another thing. One other time, I mean, I'm 64. In our life,

the preachers have been taken down without everybody knowing, wow, I mean, they really have a problem.

Okay, so Ruben got taken down. John Vatanemi, Lowry Hoxo, I think Melvin Pirness,

and who knows why. The only thing was, at that time, a man on the work committee

told Ruben, you got a cloud over you. So we're doing the same thing. Clouds are around people.

Confusion is around people. It was all wrong. And when they come to find out, work committee was wrong.

Not the people that they put down. So we need to be seriously thinking, what are we doing? And what I also don't like

is when Keith talks about bitterness, that people are bitter. Well, look at Finland, just published a book.

And I know they have had countless meetings. Two years ago in Helsinki, they had a men's night.

And the topic was, talk about the 70s there. Talk till you're free. I mean,

they have been so open. They have written statements. Now they've written this book about what went wrong,

what we should learn. And here if you say the word 80s right away, oh, you're bitter.

No, we're not. That is the hugest stifler of any communication. Lundqvist,

did you have something to say? I'm sure, like many of you brothers and sisters, or like me,

you've had many, many thoughts circulating through your head. And like me, I've been trying to understand.

And, you know, I wish I could tell you I have an answer. I don't.

I've wanted to, to listen and hear what you've had to say. And I think that

we can hear many things, I think, in these speeches. Somehow,

I've tried to understand that what you're saying is, your vision, your perception

of some, I guess, of things. There are some things

I have to say I have quite different perception of them than you do.

And I wonder, why is that? When you're saying you, who are you speaking to?

Those, maybe, who have expressed perceptions of some,

of various issues that I just have a different perception. I don't,

I don't remember who said what and when, but just. Like from here today? Today, yeah.

Well, and I think also from other occasions it's happened where, you know,

we've been at a meeting and, you know, some thought it was really a nice meeting

and others thought it was terrible. Why is that? Why are there

two different perceptions of the same event? What is it that, that causes one to see it

in one way and one in another, in another way? I remember

at the end of the 2016 speaker's camp at Stony Lake, Darwin and I,

and I think maybe it was Randy Herrala or it was Eric Jurmu, one or the other.

We were visiting and I remember Darwin said, yeah, it's hard to understand

how we got here to the point that we had coming into that weekend. And I kind of have,

you know, the same question in my mind right now. How is it that we got here?

There are some things that I think pertain in particular to the Wolf Lake Board

and the meetings that we've had with them. I've been a part of many of those.

So for me, those are, that's one thing. But I think it's,

it's pretty clear that there are a lot of people here who are not from Wolf Lake.

They weren't at any part of those meetings and those discussions. So I think we've seen

that those, there's a lot of issues that have affected pretty broadly.

But, well, I'm trying to get a lasso on a thought here.

But, you know, Laurie mentioned earlier, you know,

to try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. And again, I think,

and I hope that you also, who, maybe have some displeasure, if I put it that way,

or concern with the LLC board or somebody like myself who is an employee for the LLC,

if you can also put yourself in our shoes. And, you know,

as Jim noted, he started, he mentioned Darwin Circle. He had a sermon

just in connection with that fact that this is the beginning, well,

it was the beginning of this, the sequence of meetings. And yet,

there were clearly people here for some reason perceived that

we're bringing that matter up again, that there's a problem with it. That's,

I don't think that's true. And then there were some who were demanding some sort of justification,

maybe for that action or explanation for it. The brothers have offered a little bit. To me, if I just, and this isn't my main point, but sometime after those initial meetings,

I remember Roger, Alioki, and I have to say, Roger and I have always been able to have really good visits. I remember our last visit at the end of a meeting in Menahga that was a very difficult meeting.

You know, we blessed each other in parting. I felt encouraged by that. And I guess Roger would say the same thing, that he and I have always been able to visit,

and I think we enjoy visiting with one another. So we were visiting that evening. I don't know. I don't remember what the occasion was,

but he and I were, I think, the only ones left at the church. And we talked a little bit about Darwin's sermon, and he made the comment that, as we were talking about it, there was one statement in Darwin's sermon, I think,

that had that not been there, maybe, you know, we just would have, it wouldn't have had the effect that it did in many listeners. And that was about, you know, the man working away from, from home and wife's at home with many children and a heavy load,

and then when husband comes home, you know, it's okay to abstain. That, I think that was a case, the example we were talking about. And Roger said, well, that would be birth control. But he said, I know Darwin.

That's not what he meant. And I explained to Roger my perspective that, you know, the issue for us is, I don't know what Darwin meant, but that's what he said.

And that's what we have to deal with. That's the reality of what he said. And I think, for example, in our discussion with the Wolf Lake Board, had that been acknowledged, yeah, there was that kind of problematic example there,

that would have been the answer. And I think that's the end of it. But my experience in the meetings that we've had with the Wolf Lake brothers, the board, is that they've, it's felt to me like they've taken a very adversarial approach to it.

And have been very, very confident, it seems, of their own position. And it's made, I think it's made it quite difficult. And, you know, look at Roger's request there, you know.

And I actually wasn't there at that meeting. Monticello and the Wolf Lake brothers spoke. I had left for a wedding. But I was reading that now this morning.

And, you know, the first meeting, like you heard, was with Eric and Randy and Jim. And then. We had to have a meeting with more brothers involved. And then we had a follow-up meeting in Menahga.

Well, then they wanted to have a larger group, brothers from southern Minnesota. And we accommodated that. And then there have been larger meetings, like Minister's Camp and AMUMAC meetings and Board Members Workshop, where there have been people from all over the country.

And where some of these things have been discussed. And many of those. meetings we have hope that brothers which I think we know that some of the Wolf Lake brothers at least were of a different mind in some of these issues

that they did speak up often it was met with silence nobody spoke up and then at some point there was the request for a national meeting well the board members workshop the meeting at Monticello was in essence it was a national meeting and I think the the thing that is troubling about that is that you know brothers

from many congregations have been there they've they've spoken and there's still been a difference and not maybe a willingness to accept that this is this is how others see and believe these things we've had conversations with SRK about finished brothers coming

here we have a very very close relationship with SRK SRK board and brothers that work at the office and and so what happens if they come and they're all the same mind that The majority of us have been in these meetings.

Then where? What's the next appeal? At some point, maybe we need to stop and ask, what is it that I've said,

what is it I have done or I am doing that contributes to this situation? And not always just blame others. The other thing that I've found puzzling

about these doctrinal issues, I don't know where sometimes, where did the term robe of righteousness enter the public discussion?

When did the term continuous forgiveness enter the public discussion and become a debate? You know, those kinds of things. And I've found myself,

like, in a position where I felt like what's being suggested is, you've been teaching wrong about these things. And I don't believe that's true,

so I have wanted to defend what I believe is the right doctrine. And then when we talk about things, it seems, I remember meeting in Menahga,

it was a joint Wolf Lake-Menahga-Brainard board meeting. And this discussion, what's going on around robe of righteousness, and I said to the brothers,

I said, let's forget that term for a minute, and I'll share with you how I believe about justification and confession. And I did.

And they said, yeah, that's the way we believe. And five minutes later, we're back on robe of righteousness. And I'm, why?

Why is that the case? What drives that? I mean, Paul warns about this striving over words and,

things like that. He says it engenders strife. Well, I think we see that. I don't remember these terms

being issues ever before. They weren't hot-button items. If we go to the forgiveness issue

that came up in 2011, as Keith mentioned, we gave, I think, scriptural examples, the two that always come to my mind,

well, three would be Esau, Samuel, and, of course, the church law. And, you know, I've gone back and double-checked afterwards,

and the understanding, I think, that was shared there is consistent with what Luther has said about those scripture portions

that other brothers, Finnish brothers, and in Christian publications, have, have been written.

It was nothing new. And yet, somehow, how out of that, you know, comes this understanding

that we're teaching the withholding of forgiveness. That's not anywhere near the truth. There's a long distance

between these two positions. And I have to say, though, it's troubling to me to think that, you know, from that speaker's meeting,

that three brothers from Phoenix went home, home with that understanding. I certainly didn't get that understanding

at that meeting. And yet, I, you know, I mean, that's clearly, that's what their perception of it was.

So, you know, that's a problem, for sure. How did that happen? But, and I found, like, I visited with Ann and Esa some, for example, about,

you know, continuous forgiveness and so on. And I finally brushed the terms away. I think we're believing in the same, same way. And I have to say from the bottom of my heart,

and there are brothers here who can confirm that I have said this to them, that like Roger and Phil, I don't know, I don't know Darwin

really very well at all. So I just don't feel like I can speak to that. But I've had visits over the years with, with Roger and Phil some.

And I just feel like I can't believe that they understand these issues differently than I do. Oh, that's, that's, that's the question. But now, when you go to the, the question,

okay, I haven't, I don't know if I've heard Phil speak five sermons ever, probably not. Darwin, maybe 10. I don't listen.

On the internet, I go to services and I listen at home, and I guess I'm too consumed with other things. But I've been asked, I've gotten calls from people that have been concerned about a sermon.

They go listen to it. You know what, I haven't done it. Why? Maybe I'm being irresponsible.

But I have felt like if I'm gonna go listen to a sermon, I wanna listen to be fed. I don't want to be fed. I don't want to be listening to find something wrong, okay?

And I know I shared this with a member of your congregation on one occasion that, and others maybe have listened to sermons and they do have concerns. They can speak to that.

I have had calls from people who have had concerns. But I shared this so that I feel like this cloud that is also over Phil and Darwin is the cloud, you know, the cloud that has been over a good part of your board.

And it's arisen because of these meetings and the way those meetings have gone. And I've been disappointed sometimes that in those meetings, Phil and Darwin really don't say much at all.

So we don't hear what they're saying. But they don't, on the other hand, they haven't said, oh, I disagree with, you know, what my dear brother said, for example, I can't support that.

So that's where that cloud, in my mind, comes from. And, you know, I've thought, I've looked back, you know, of course, I think all of us, you look back at these meetings that we've been in, there's certain things you'd like

to be able to do differently, I guess. But, you know, I realize that for, many of the members of your board, for many of them, you know, it was the first time they've served

in that kind of a situation, unfamiliar with how to deal with some of these issues, maybe. And I think one thing that we learn when we serve in these kinds of public situations, you know, as servants,

or speakers and board members, right? members. You know, we have reason to be careful and thoughtful in what we say. And, you know, I take the document that Warren and Eric sent out. Warren acknowledges it's probably got all kinds of, you know, or some errors and so on in it. Okay, think about what that wrought.

It was publicly disseminated. I had received a copy of it from somebody on maybe the day it went out. I got it in the evening. But I started reading it. I can't read it now. I won't sleep tonight, so I'll leave it till tomorrow. A day later, I was going into the hardware store in

Menahga, and a believing sister pulls in. She said, rolls down the window, John, have you seen this document that's circulating? And, of course, I said, I guess I probably have, yeah. She said, well, another sister had gotten it. And her reaction, the other sister who had gotten it and

shared it with her, her reaction was she started reading it. And her first thought when she saw the title was, oh, good, somebody's going to explain the issues that are going on now. She started reading it. She got partway through the first page and said, I don't want to read this. She felt like

there was something, I'm trying to think of the right word, but like, like sick, if you will, or just displaced or something about it. This doesn't feel constructive. And, you know, to send something like that document and spread it all around American Christianity, you got to think about that. You know, I think every one of us here,

including those of us who work for the LLC or members of the LLC board, we don't have perfect understanding. They're not perfect. They're not perfect. They're not perfect. They're not perfect. There are many issues that come up. We find ourselves, you know, we read something and we need

to talk about this. How do you understand it? There are brothers that we know that we can call and we can talk about and clarify our understanding about it before going to the pulpit or standing up in some meeting and saying it there. Why? Because we want to make sure that our own weak understanding

is in harmony with the understanding in God's kingdom. We have a responsibility there. And, you know, I've like, I've been in some meetings like Monticello meeting, for example. There's some speaking terms that I went a little bit. I wouldn't say it that way. Maybe it was a little

too quick or a leap too far. But now put yourself in that position. And I think that's what I'm saying. Put yourself like in my shoes. I don't know what conversations, what experiences the person who spoke that had. Maybe they're justified in saying what they said. I don't know that. So I feel

a little bit hesitant to take issue with it. I've been in other meetings where somebody has said something that I felt like, you know, this is out of context. It's clearly over the line. My conscience demands of me. Okay, now you need to say something about that. Because that doesn't seem right or

fair. And I've tried to do that. And I know that others have as well. And many of the things we've heard here, like rumors and so on. Yeah, I got a phone call one day from a sister who was pretty upset. I could tell. It's about blew me out of my chair, you know. And she's like, John, you could

put a stop to this. And I'm like, stop to what? You know, she said, I don't know. I don't know. I was talking about the rumors and stuff that are going on. You know what? I don't hear much of that. I don't know about it. I try to guard what comes out of my own mouth. I can't guard everybody else's

mouth. And neither can these brothers here. And so I had a call from one sister who was talking about some things that had been said about her once. And I told her, I said, you know, I know there have been things that have been said about me.

It's like the telephone game we used to play at Habs, right? I whispered, Carrie's here or something. By the time it gets to Bruce over there, it'll be something different. And I said, I've tried to be gracious about that. Just understanding the nature of communications. And it often is without

malice. It's just the way communications work. But we know how things get distorted. Sometimes it can be with some malice. Oftentimes it's distorted a little bit. You say something and you ask somebody, well, you know, you thought you said this, but they heard something

different. And I've tried to understand that and not chase those things around. If somebody says something about me to my face or I hear, yeah, I can speak to that. But I've tried to understand that. But with regard to Wolf Lake, there's something that I understand, like many of you have

expressed your pain, I guess is maybe the best way to put it. But I can tell you that when questions have come up about Wolf Lake, I very often began in that way that when somebody has approached me with something, I said, look, you know, you got to remember that no congregation goes to Wolf Lake.

They go to heaven as a corporate entity. We're individual believers. And there are many dear brothers and sisters. I firmly believe that in the Wolf Lake congregation. So I think, and I've been open in the meetings we've had with your board. I've confessed how I believe. I've addressed

things that have concerned me. And I think I'm not sure what's, what's the, what's the, what's the problem with that. But there, I, I have a sense that the issues that are being discussed aren't the issue. That's my sense. And so, you know, and after our January meeting in Monaga last, last

year, I drew the short straw on Sunday evening to give some kind of a summary of what was a fairly difficult meeting to our congregation. Because everybody was curious and concerned about how the meeting went. And I tried to the best of my meager abilities, as I have on other occasions, to put the best construction I possibly could on it.

And be gracious. But I had to acknowledge that, yeah, we're, there's, we're somehow not on the same page. I've used the analogy. That it's like you put two pianos in a room and they're not in tune with each other. You can play all the same notes, but they're making a different sound. And I think that the Wolf Lake brothers that were there at the end of that

meeting, they would have agreed. Yeah, there's, we're, we're, you know, we're not, we're not quite the same here. And one of the things that came out of that meeting, we suggested and we thought that the Wolf Lake board members that were there agreed that we would try to meet in a smaller group,

maybe two or three brothers from LLC and two or three from the Wolf Lake board. Because even in those kinds of meetings, like this kind of meeting, it's really hard to have a dialogue.

You know, people take speaking turns, and 10 minutes later, then you try to respond to something you heard. Or 20. So, yeah, right.

And we thought that that was agreed to. And later, then we got the message that they didn't want to do that. And, you know, the reason was that, you know, they were feeling the stress and the burden of these meetings.

Believe me, we understand that as well. And I have to say that I find that kind of a disingenuous excuse. To do that. To me, it's a cop-out, if I'm perfectly honest about it.

Because if you think going to that meeting is any less difficult for me than it is for you, that's not fair. My family suffers. I had to take sleeping pills to sleep for weeks.

I had to go to the emergency room from stress. And I know that's familiar to some of the rest of you. But to say, you know, somehow, we're carrying all the burden of these meetings.

I'm sorry. That's not right. You know that. But that was the message that we got with regard to those.

But that was the answer we were given. Let's wait. Bruce, let's just wait a minute. Okay.

Okay. Maybe, John, if you could wrap it up so we could have a little bit of dialogue. So, anyway, that was rejected. I asked to fill all the OK.

I want it. I want it. You could have just he and me meet. And I understand, you know, it was difficult for Phil.

He didn't want to do that. But he agreed he'd meet with, you know, if Ann and Esa were there. So at one point then we had a meeting, Ann and Esa and Carrie and myself. That was very hard for me.

I was willing to do that. I feel like, again, like Bruce said, that was our perception, but that was the message that we got back was that, no, we don't want to have that meeting with two or three because it's too much of a burden on our board members.

That was the message that was conveyed to us. Okay. So, and, you know, in some of these meetings, like Roger and I have thought and said, yeah, let's get together and we can visit one-on-one and stuff.

And I think, you know, I guess the unfortunate thing is that we're not going to be able to visit one-on-one. And I think, you know, I guess the unfortunate thing is that we're not going to be able to visit one-on-one.

And I think, you know, I guess the unfortunate reason some of those visits haven't happened is because we're all maybe too busy in our life. I bumped into Bruce's suit at the grocery store two summers ago after the Longview or Seattle meeting.

And, you know, said, come on over sometime. We can visit. And I think there would have been a wish to do it, but it hasn't happened. Right.

Right. Right. Right. And I think there's going to have to be some of those kinds of visits.

And I hope that they will happen. But I guess what I want to convey here is that try to put yourself also in our shoes. It's felt like from the beginning it's been adversarial. There's been mistrust.

And that's, you know, it's disappointing. We can't demand it. But why? That's the question.

Why has there been that mistrust from the beginning? And that's why I think, I guess, I don't know. I'm just thinking that. Maybe that's something that some from Wolf Lake could speak to.

The issues aren't the issue. If you know what I mean. There's something else that's fueling it. Bruce.

I can't even remember all the things I was going to ask. I have a question on you. I have a question on you. I have a question on you.

I'm sorry, John, but I know that perception that you talk about, it's both ways. This cloud of confusion over Darwin and Phil, and I asked you that years ago, how many years ago, that why don't you go visit these brothers?

Drive in your car. They only live 15 miles away. And I don't know the answer to this question, but have you had something against Darwin ever since he was put up for speaking?

And only you can answer that. And you brought up this meeting. We had a meeting in Menahga. Yeah, we agreed.

But then Don Lutty brought up that there's a group of people that believe that the role of righteousness cannot be stained. They're in the wrong doctrine. You could have corrected him.

He was wrong. Okay. The very first meeting I was ever in with you guys, you brought up that, you made the statement that something to the effect that if we don't correct, be corrected, that the

next step is we're coming in the doors of Wolf Lake. And I said, what? In the Menahga meeting. That was the very first meeting I was in.

And so, I don't know. I just, I'm not agreeing with everything you just stated, but I'm not a good orator, so. Sure. I see the brothers are well familiar with my gifts and long speeches.

You know, that, it really troubles me. It pains me to hear that. My kids have heard from somebody that, you know, some of, I think, Darwin's nieces or nephews that, you know, your dad hates our uncles.

I've heard it indirectly. I don't know where that comes from. I hardly know Darwin, and I think Darwin could tell you. We have never had an unpleasant conversation.

I don't have anything against Darwin at all. Personally. I just, like, I think he would say we hardly know each other. And, you know, I was in Alaska recently, and a brother there told me he got a call from

an individual who said, yeah, John Blumpus is trying to take Darwin down. I don't know where that comes from. I've had questions. I have always tried to put the best construction on things.

I don't talk about Darwin. Is there concern for Darwin or Phil on your part, or maybe from any of the other parts that this might come from? Or I think that's one of the questions that seems to be there is why, after a year or

a year and a half or whatever the time frame has been, why is there still this cloud that maybe would prevent them from going elsewhere? I think that's what I'm hearing. I think, like, at least from my perspective, it has to do with our discussions with their

board, which they've often been a part of, at least to some degree. And I think... And I told the member of your congregation that, in my mind, I'm not saying in other people's minds, but in my mind, the cloud that has developed around your board, the

majority of it, is the cloud that's over Phil and Darwin, in my mind. Because, as I said, I haven't listened to their sermons. And what's that cloud? I would say that the cloud is this, as I mentioned, this adversarial kind of attitude and approach.

And in these discussions, and... Well, you know, Bruce, if it was just me that had that impression, but brothers who have been in meetings that I haven't even been a part of have left those meetings feeling very discouraged and like they were being talked down to.

And so... So, I'm just sharing that. Okay. You have to...

You know, we have to also hear what other people say. So... It seems like a lot of our discussion goes around the recent history, perhaps dating back to 2011.

So, I moved up to Wolf Lake as a single person to pursue a career. And I moved back to Minneapolis in 2004. I had a wonderful time in Wolf Lake. I felt loved by everybody.

I knew no strife. It was wonderful. And then, in 2006, somebody asked me in Minneapolis... I completely forgot about this until these, like, troubles returned.

In 2006, someone approached me and asked, Lori, does Wolf Lake have a wrong spirit? And I was dumbfounded. All I could say was no.

The thought was foreign to me. And I did not continue the conversation. But why in 2006 was this idea going around that already then Wolf Lake may have a wrong spirit? Microphone.

All right. Craig Kumpel, Rockford Congregation. Hesitant to speak here because I'm not on the LLC board. And I'm not a Wolf Lake fan.

I'm not a Wolf Lake member. But just some observations, I think, that are, at least from my own experience, pertinent to Wolf Lake's situation. And, by the way, at least in my opinion, are not exclusive to Wolf Lake, but impact, at this point, most, if not all, of our congregations.

And, first of all, just something John just mentioned. As far as... You know, adversarial tones and speeches and so forth, we have to be honest. That has happened, but it's also happened from multiple directions, multiple sides.

It's not a one-sided thing. And I've experienced it myself. And I'm not innocent of it myself. We carry our flesh and blood.

And words come out that sometimes we wish we could just reel them back in, but they're there. And... As John mentioned, we need to take ownership of our own words, our own actions, our speeches, our letters, whatever it is that has gone out.

We personally need to take responsibility for those. And none of us are beyond reproach, and none of us are without error in these things. But I think we can go around and around about the actions and things.

Things that have happened and things that have been said and things that have been understood and misunderstood and misheard. And it's happened. There's no question. It's clear here today.

And it will continue to happen. Because the enemy has been successful in pitting us against each other. And he's the enemy that we all acknowledge. He's the enemy that we want to fight together.

So there's no question of that. But there's also this question that peer doctrine, core understandings, unshakable tenets of God's word cannot be removed or misplaced or belittled in any way. And at least from my experience and just the trials that I've gone through.

Personally, I always come back to this. That my comfort, especially in these times, is in God's word. His holy, precious word. And I feel like in our time that has been challenged.

And it's challenged in ways that maybe some of you don't recognize. Some of it came out today. Well, you need the Holy Spirit to interpret the word of God. That is true.

The spirit and word. Our time is now. Together, they are inseparable. There are many portions of scripture that speak to that.

But the implication then is that I, as a believer, when I turn to God's word. Yes, I need to have the correct heart. I can't demand answers. I need to let it reveal as the spirit reveals.

But are you suggesting then that I do not have the Holy Spirit? That's the implication. Not directly said necessarily, but that's the implication. So.

So in these times, I think we especially want to encourage the believers to turn to God's word with trust. Don't be afraid of it. Open it up with fearful trust that God will speak to you as a believer. And of course, he doesn't reveal something different to you than he does to his congregation.

And then there is another, I think, core issue that that's come up. And I think. It gets us maybe closer to where we need to be with these discussions, at least in my opinion. There's there's the word trust.

There's the word mistrust. And a thought that just popped into my head here is, as John was speaking, there's there's also misplaced trust. And the question to each of us is, where do we put our trust? And one of the understandings that has troubled me.

And it's it's come up. Today, it's come up in other discussions, is that we cannot question our boards, our LLC leaders. Otherwise, we are questioning God. And my heart cannot join in to that understanding.

That is not what the word of God teaches us. It does teach us that we cannot put our trust in man. It does teach us that we would obey those who have the rule over us. And when you read that.

The whole context of the book of Hebrews, it's clearly in the context of the word of God who has spoken the word of God unto you in grace and in truth. And we cannot expect from our congregation members that just trust without first encouraging them to turn to God's word.

At least for myself, I would I would have real difficulty. Telling somebody that. Do you trust me or don't you think you should trust me? My inclination would be let's turn to God's word.

And even together, if we need to. Let's look at what does God's word teach us on this? Don't trust me. Look to God's word.

There we find our answers. Turn them away from ourselves. And I and I think part of the picture here, maybe that some of you brothers and I don't have any beef against LLC. Or.

The boards are our leadership. I love the work that they're doing with our publications and our music and the camp work and so forth. But if there's misplaced trust and we're encouraging people to look to us that we're we cannot be questioned.

We're put here by God and so forth. We see the ramifications of that come out in some of these discussions and I hear it with my own ears. Well. If so and so said it, it has to be true.

I can't question that. And it takes away freedom. It's not that we want to mistrust anyone. We want to have free, open, clear dialogue without fear of if I say something slightly wrong or I can't explain it quite clearly that now I'm going to be questioned and I'm going to be put under the bus.

And I speak from personal experience because these things have happened in the rumor mill. As. We heard so clearly from our sister from from Michigan Amy when she spoke it's run wild and it's not one sided it's all over the place and we have to encourage open free clear dialogue without looking at one another with mistrust because it works both ways.

Trust is not one sided and it's not automatic and it's not something that we should expect our country. We don't expect our congregation members to just trust us because we're a speaker or because we're a LLC board member or because we're a part of the LLC.

No. That's not automatic. Again the trust comes through turning together to God's word that there is our authority. And that's another issue that's been questioned as is the word of God higher than the congregation.

There's no question that they're inseparable. That's not the issue. The body. Of Christ is inseparable from the head.

But to me the scripture is very clear that the head is above the body. Christ is the word he and his word and his spirit are one. But the word reigns supreme as as Luther says she is a far higher queen above any of us.

And that is one of my concerns is that we're not turning to. The place where we need to for our trust. Let's hear. Let's mold like people.

There's someone in the back there too. I mentioned it earlier. Cat Simonson. Mentioned it earlier that John first chapter.

The word is God. When we believe the first commandment in this first table of love is that we love God above all things. John had mentioned earlier that. Where is.

The appeal. You know for a child of God. The appeal is always to the word. The word is God.

And so our heart. And only find peace and confidence in the word. And any hope of reconciliation that we have. Is only to to be joined together in the word of God.

And there is the spirit. It joins together. In this word. And so.

We can never look back. No further than that. It's our only hope of reconciliation. My.

My perspective. Means nothing to God. God is not a respecter of persons. And each and every one of us.

Our perspectives. Mean nothing to him. It's what does God say. It's very simple.

But I've heard here. I went here for almost seven hours. There has been very little. Going to the word.

Where is God. Only found in the word. This is our appeal. Our only hope of reconciliation.

I would like to speak to this. Thought that. Congregation here has spoken. I guess not just the congregation.

But mostly here. Spoken quite clearly. To the disinvitation. And John actually said it quite well.

When he was speaking early. That it was met with silence. And that's the same thing that we're seeing here. Is the reluctance to.

Find something that we find. That's divisive. To turn to the word. To say it's right.

Or it's wrong. I think it's. A pretty vast difference. When one says it's.

Wrong doctrinally. To disinvite speakers. And others say well. Well they don't say anything.

I would really like the LLC to. Clarify. What their understanding of the scriptures are. When it comes to disinviting.

And separating the body of Christ. Just don't. Know that it's right. Sam Royko.

I'm kind of along with. The lines that Carrie was. Was saying that. I wanted to come here to listen.

And I've. I've heard of. And. And I want to hear.

I guess what the concerns. That you Wolf Lake brothers and sisters have. And. I guess this.

This matter of. Of disinviting as it's been called. This is one of them. And I don't I'm not sure if if that's as John has meant has John Bloom has mentioned the issue or if it's just a symptom of the issue.

But. I'll I'll just relate personally some of a little bit of my experiences over the past I suppose year and a half. Our brother Darwin came down and served in Elk River on a Minnesota rotation in March of two thousand eighteen.

And. And. There were some things when he spoke that I wasn't sure if I heard right. It.

Sentences to the effect. You know I don't know I don't even know if it's on the archives and I don't know where it is but I haven't listened to it since. But this this thought came out and maybe I misheard that.

When we are troubled we can look into ourselves and find that face. And be comforted and uplifted and reassured. And I. I thought about that a little bit and.

It kind of was passing in and out and and then we weren't able to stay for the afternoon service. We with our rotation services we've had the tradition where we when we have a guest minister we have them speak the morning service on Sunday and then we have a lunch and then.

Then we put the brother. To work again in the afternoon. So be forewarned. If brothers would come.

But. A sister came up after. And visited. On Wednesday evening.

And had the comment that she felt she went to the wrong church that day. She. Heard a sermon that was. I suppose she couldn't differentiate.

It. From the sermon from the church down the road. She had looked to or she was wondering where the voice of the Good Shepherd was and that wasn't the only sister that spoke up many others also had a had a question and we visited about it in Elk River and the thought was that well ministers camp in 2018 was was a month away in April that maybe it'd be good if the brothers from Elk River would have a chance to visit.

I had a chance to pull Darwin aside there and visit. And I I had hoped to do that too. As. As things went we had a baby.

That Friday and I stayed home that weekend when that blizzard came some of you remember. And so I never had the chance to visit. But the brothers then that were at ministers camp. Came back with this kind of a message that.

Those. Discussions. Were for them well I suppose the majority of those discussions the brothers were one minded and then when there was a time given for brothers ministers who disagreed with the presentation that Jim front he gave that morning and with the other comments to speak then a number of brothers took that opportunity to speak and.

I. Sometimes. I suppose. They didn't the brothers did not even speak directly to what the the differences were and what their concerns were.

But a group of speaker brothers chose to speak at that time. And. We had an in Elk River. In in this in visiting about speaker brothers to call for the the following year had that or were wondering.

How how to proceed. And. The thought was is that when when these speaker brothers chose to speak at that time that maybe it'd be good if we would not call them to come serve in Elk River when they chose to identify themselves as being different than than the presentation in the speeches.

Again I wasn't at the camp so this is the report that the brothers that my brothers who were there have given me. And then when when Cato. Took that action and and sent George up to visit with Phil in the hopes that.

Matters would be taken care of and the discussion did not go well and then they thought that it would be good that Phil not come and serve I guess I was I was I suppose a little bit surprised. But I wanted to.

Not knowing what all the discussions were. I wanted to be humble and accept that that maybe those maybe the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding those brothers to. And then when that matter was visited about last fall at the southern Minnesota boards and speakers meeting and has been discussed a number of congregations.

And we visited about in Elk River when I one of my brothers and. Elk River made this made this statement to that. As Paul writes to the Corinthians in the twelfth chapter about about the many members of the body and this part has been used to.

I suppose in this sense that. By doing so the hand has cut off the eye or or something to that effect. And I guess I guess I. I haven't.

Well I it's it's interesting the comments that put yourself in in their shoes are in their perspective. I've been trying to do that and I know if it was me it would be a difficult position if if a congregation where I was on the schedule to serve would ask me not to come.

And it would involve a lot of soul searching for me. And I would hope that I would be so humble to say that. You know I don't have a right. To be a speaker brother.

I don't have a I don't deserve. To to go and preach and in any congregation I it's it's not a. Something that's guaranteed. And that if other brothers and sisters would have that kind of concern over what I have said or not said that I would be humble and listen and sit in the bench.

We had an experience in Elk River. Where we had a had a brother we called him to serve for and we. Thanked God over the gifts that he gave. Any served for a short time and in our discussions it seemed that would be good if he sat on the bench and one of the brothers said that he is much.

That each one of us is much more valuable to God. As a simple believer and whether we are preach up in the pulpit are teach Sunday School or serve on a board or anything. And. The brother in Elk River spoke of this that.

that when Paul writes to the Corinthians about this, that those members of the body that we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor,

and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. Then he says in the 25th verse that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another.

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it, or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it. And I've wanted to think of it in this way, that when I didn't hear Kokedo say

that they don't think Phil Alajoki or Darwin Lake is a believer, I suppose if they would have said it in that way, then... Then I would say that would be clearly cutting off a member of the body.

But as the brother in Elk River pointed out in this way, that if we sprain our ankle or get a cut on our hand, Brother Michael Kumpula bashed his hand playing hockey, he has it wrapped in a cast,

and he shakes hands with you with his left hand. You've got to kind of get used to that. In that same way, if we...

If part of the body has a wound, we care for it. We don't use it for the time being. We hope that that wound would get healed.

We baby it. We provide it more tenderness and love and care. And I've wanted to be, I guess, think of it in that way,

that if my brothers and sisters would see a concern and feel that, you know, that Sam Royko doesn't need to be a speaker brother and serve anymore, that I could just be humble enough and sit on the bench

and go to services and fight the battle that my own flesh would probably have for a while. But that I wouldn't be wiser than the kingdom of God or my brothers and sisters in faith,

wherever they are in the world. Not just in my own local congregation, not just in southern Minnesota area, but throughout Zion.

That as we heard about, as Phil read about love, and that, you know, charity is long... Love is long-suffering. It's kind.

It does not envy. It does not vaunt itself or is not puffed up. It does not seek its own. And I guess I would...

I would hope that I would not begin defending myself or seeking others who would be defending me and supporting me. Because that is also wrong.

And that's... Well, that was one of the problems in that congregation in Corinth. Some said they were of Paul and some said of Apollos and some said of Cephas.

That... And in that sense, I hope that matters could be visited about and matters could be put away

with that same old medicine that Harry spoke of. But I came here... I wasn't going to say anything, but I wanted to confess how I believe

and that's how I've understood matters. And I know I've had weak words and been impatient and need to hear the gospel. Can I believe?

Petri, did you have your hand up? Petri Holtari from Toronto. I just want to also bring greetings of love and God's peace here. Many sent their prayers.

Sam spoke of what I was going to speak to. And it was the comment that was raised about, you know, not calling the speakers or Cokato or... Of course, we're shielded a lot from the details in the East.

But we hear of things. And so I also wanted just to bring that perspective that when we hear of those things, we hear them and we have prayers

that maybe God will care for these matters now. Amen. Between, you know, the brothers and the things that have happened. So we have that prayer and hope,

but also hearing here that that's a sin. I would never... That would be a difficult thing for me personally to say about another congregation.

And I just... I felt that I wanted you to hear that that was what we felt when we heard that this is happening, that maybe things will be cared for,

prayerfully, that there would be this visiting. The enemy, which we know is trying to divide the love, that we would visit as brothers and sisters in faith,

as boards. That was the small comment. I know Sam spoke to it, but that was the other thought I had.

And I'll stop there. Who's over here? Al Lake. Sam, I thought I would touch on your comment a little bit.

I thought I would touch a little bit on this disinviting because Darwin and Phil, I guess, aren't the ones asking to serve elsewhere. It's the congregation that is asking.

They... I don't think that Darwin and Phil have been too upset about not having to be gone all the time. But the congregation has felt, I would say,

a severe sting in the sense that we do hold our brothers in love. We feel that they're preaching according to the word. And we have asked on many, many, many occasions,

what is the problem? And I know you hinted at one, but didn't really come to any conclusion. And I guess the same applies to what John Bloomquist said earlier.

There was hinting that, well, there's board members, there's board members that are causing this cloud. Well, that doesn't do a whole lot for me. I'm on the board.

If it's me you're talking about, I'd like to know more. Keith mentioned the letter that Eric and Warren wrote and then did not give the details. When it goes down this road, that's slander.

It's simply smearing our good name and leaving a very black mark on the world. And I think that's what's going on in this entire congregation because we do find our brothers to be in the love of the congregation.

There was another point I wanted to talk about this, and this was on withholding, withholding forgiveness. Christ gave us a mission command, to go ye therefore and teach all nations.

I guess there's one point in there, one word I would like to touch on, and that's teach. There have been, there have been several comments today

that said that Wolf Lake is teaching. Well, that's the command of Christ. I'm more than happy to do so with the word. He says teach all nations,

baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is what our entire desire is that all would be saved. So when we're confessing our faith publicly or privately, it's in hopes that people would be saved.

I guess the point being there that that is a mission command. I think it's pretty hard to say that we shouldn't confess our faith and preach about the good works of Christ to all mankind, which is essentially the gospel message,

that they would believe their sins forgiven. And then we go to the other words of Christ, and he says forgive. This is concerning trespasses now.

But as far as the sin, we are preaching that Christ has died for the sins of the entire world. And that would be 2 Corinthians 5, starting about verse 20. I don't have my Bible in front of me,

but he says we are ambassadors for Christ, beseeching you in God's stead. Be ye reconciled to Christ. This is exactly what we want to do.

This is not withholding. The entire purpose is that souls would be saved concerning sin. The rest of this is then in trespasses, where we have offended brothers.

And God gave another, or Christ himself gave another, or several statements on that. And he said forgive. Nowhere did he see to withhold forgiveness concerning trespasses.

He did give the church law of Christ. If your brother doesn't hear, then you would treat him as a heathen and a publican after bringing it to the church.

But that does not deny anywhere that if this person is a heathen, if this person asked for the gospel, that you would forgive.

And we could go and study this church law if we have a problem on that in chapter 18 of Matthew. But it's very clear that as far as trespasses are concerned, whether they ask or not, we have to forgive.

So forgiveness is given no matter what. The rest of the time, if they do ask, of course we're going to forgive. So I find absolutely no point

ever where we would withhold the gospel. John Lesterloh from Minneapolis. Someone made reference to the minister's camp at Stony Lake, 2018 in April,

and beginning of the 4 p.m. session when Ray Warnemey was the moderator. And there he allowed people to come to the front of the line if they wanted to use the gospel.

If they wanted to use that opportunity. And it's been stated that Ray said that those who were in opposition to Jim Frantti's presentation

that he started Saturday morning with could now come forth and speak, come to the front of the line. I will quote to you what Ray said.

Dear brothers, may the peace of God which passes us by, which passes all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Jesus Christ.

So thinking as we began this session, we thought that it would be good to open up the opportunity for anyone who would like to speak

to maybe that they didn't feel of the same kind of unity with the thoughts expressed in the presentation. So that part he did say.

So if you got anything you disagreed with as far as Jim Frantti's opinion, as far as Jim Frantti's opinion, as far as Jim Frantti's opinion,

as far as Jim Frantti's presentation, you can speak up. But then he said, or if you have any thoughts

that you would like to express that maybe you feel that your viewpoint hasn't been represented, or about the matter of continual forgiveness

or any other thought, we wanted to allow that freedom for loving one another and wanting, even as we heard the exhortation,

that we would listen to, as participants, we can also have that freedom, even if we have a thought

that seems to differ from most of the thoughts that are being expressed, here you can be free to express even those.

We promise to listen and to consider those thoughts. So not only did he say if you disagreed, but if you have something to say

on continual forgiveness, or if you have anything, anything on your mind that you would like to say at this moment,

you have the freedom to speak up. And as a result, then Scott Simonson, Greg Kumpula,

Phil Olayoke, John Lechtla, and Darwin Lake took that opportunity to speak.

They were all in a row before they went back to where it ended before that four o'clock session. And I wasn't even going to say anything,

but I thought it was such a loving and beckoning invitation from Ray Warnamee that people with a loving and open mind would listen to any thoughts that were expressed.

I grabbed the mic as it was going by. Then I've been translating the new SRK book, history book that just came out, and I've got section three all translated already.

I won't read the entire section because it's about 80 pages long. But, just the conclusion of the tumultuous years of the 1970s.

I'll just read this. So it's been referenced to the 1970s that if you refer to them, you're bitter and have unforgiven sins

and so on and so forth. So this is Aripeka's conclusion. The doctrine of spirits, public reprimands,

placing conditions on forgiveness had a central effect. That some of the people who received care at caretaking meetings in the 1970s considered it as mental and spiritual violence.

That's how some people received it, experienced it in their life. That's subjective, but that's how they felt. It is easy to understand the situation,

that the situation seemed traumatic when one was publicly rebuked about things that, that they did not understand and was not forgiven because forgiveness was not asked in the right way.

The meetings were also especially traumatic to the children and youth who happened to be in the audience listening. In spite of it all,

only a small minority of those receiving care departed from conservative Lestadianism in the 1970s. There were more people who bore their trauma in silence, but only later were they able to speak about it.

So it's therapeutic if one has experienced trauma to then later speak about it. Why do you go to a psychologist? Why does a psychologist listen

when the person who has trauma is opening their heart and unloading their burdens? We should be the same as well, have the same mind and attitude.

It's not bitterness and unforgiving sin. The largest portion of conservative Lestadianism, who witnessed the caretaking meetings, were left with no trauma.

So the majority didn't experience any trauma. That doesn't deny the fact that there were those who did experience trauma. That cannot be denied.

It's undeniable. Even though many things were incomprehensible that were happening in that decade, one should not forget that many were able to care for matters,

true, that needed care, and this had a positive effect on their life of faith. Will Randall. Gillette, Wyoming.

I thought I would just give a little insight into some of our experiences in Gillette in regards to this disinviting. So we recently, or in recent times,

we had a discussion at one of our annual meetings about whether or not we should invite Darwin and or Phil to Gillette to speak. In that discussion,

there wasn't anybody that showed any hesitation or uneasiness about inviting Darwin, and we had some conversation that if somebody would have some hesitation,

this would be a great time to talk about it, or when Darwin and or Phil are in Gillette, let's ask them how they believe. Let's talk about what the issues are.

Let's talk to these brothers and come to an understanding on this stuff. So we ended the annual meeting with the idea that, yes,

let's go ahead and invite Darwin. So we did, and then there was some, obviously, there's connections with all of our families in Gillette

to the Midwest, and so there was some conversations that took place with various families and their connections back to Minnesota,

and it was brought up that there was some hesitation that maybe we should not allow them to come speak in Gillette. So our chairman called Eric Jurmu and asked what his thought was on it.

What was the LLC's stance on inviting or disinviting Darwin to Gillette? And Eric Jurmu stated that the LLC did not have a position on that.

So the chairman posted that on the congregation group, meaning that Eric Jurmu did not have a position on that. And, well, long story short, through the phone calls

and the obvious division that took place in Gillette, the clause came out to say it mildly. One of our brothers on the board called a speaker in Cokato and asked him what his thoughts were,

and he stated that he would be very afraid of having one of these brothers speak in our congregation. So, of course, that caused a great deal of hesitation in this board member's mind.

And then another brother in our congregation called, or brother, I think it was actually his wife, called Eric, and they posted this on our group as well.

But it said that, my wife called Eric and he has a message back to call him back for not relaying his guidance on this matter in full.

Yes, he said the LLC part, but he also said he recommended to him that we don't invite him because of his spiritual matters, but that each congregation's

decision to make together. There was instant division in our congregation. It was very evident. It was instantaneous.

And so we had a board meeting prior to Darwin showing up. And in that board meeting, it was expressed the real fear of what this was about. And the real fear was that we might do something

contrary to what the LLC or the church has expressed that we should do. And if we were to do that, if we were to invite them,

we would be wrong. And the only reason I tell this story is because I don't know that the brothers in the LLC necessarily realize,

or maybe you do, maybe you don't. I don't know. But I would hope that you don't realize this.

But there are people that look to the LLC as the church. And it was expressed in this way at our board meeting when I stated my obvious stance that we should invite him

and we should talk about the matters and we should, discuss openly with Darwin how he believes and come to our own conclusion.

But the one brother's stance was, you mean to tell me that what the LLC is doing and the church that I have believed in my entire life is wrong.

It wasn't that he wanted to get to the bottom of the matter. He didn't want to discuss it. He didn't want to read doctrine. He didn't want to read scripture.

He was worried that he might do something in differing opinion to what the LLC thought. There are people that hold the LLC in the highest regard and next to God himself

as having the ultimate authority on what they do believe. I don't know how to overcome that obstacle, but it instantly began

an onslaught of slander, gossiping, fear mongering, and a division that is still in Gillette as we speak.

There is not unity there at all. It's been, heartbreaking to say the least. But there is zero reconciliation around the word.

It's also evident when we talk about withholding. We spoke in Gillette when this conversation of withholding first started going around in 2011, 2012, 2013.

We had numerous discussions as a congregation. We had numerous discussions on the board. We had numerous discussions when we had visiting speakers. We always came to the same conclusion that withholding

was contrary to scripture. That withholding wasn't something that we should teach, that we'd want to teach, but that we would even attempt to justify

or make excuses for. It's very obvious what Christ's instruction is. But in that mindset, in that time,

we had somebody who made a trip back to Minnesota and did some visiting with some speakers and came to the conclusion that, well actually there is times

that we would withhold. And there is times that it would be acceptable, permissible, and sometimes even necessary to withhold.

Well some of these people that had the very clear understanding on whether or not we would withhold and what the instruction is for us as believers to do, instantly became muddied.

Because in their mind, whether it came from the LLC or it came from a person in the LLC, but in their mind it came from the LLC.

It came from the church because these are trusted brothers that have been put in a position of trust. And of course we believe that the Holy Ghost,

did guide the congregation or congregations in putting people in these positions. And therefore we have to believe that they are right. That they are the trusted brothers.

They are the ones who have the understanding. We don't. We have to wait for them to express it to us. Express to us what the scripture means.

And if they say that Saul and Samuel is an example of withholding, then therefore Saul and Samuel is an example of withholding.

And what Christ said pertains most of the time but not all of the time. For the parable of the ten virgins, just one more example of

when somebody mentioned Phoenix and the three brothers that came back with this new understanding, it struck a chord in my mind.

I remembered a speaker that came out to our congregation and discussed. We had a congregation discussion with him on forgiveness.

And he didn't have any real input, but we had a lot of discussion, right? Well, shortly after he left our congregation, he had a sermon at home.

It said he used to understand the parable of the ten virgins as a sign of the end of times, but he's come to realize

that he's understood it incorrectly, that this is an example of withholding. And it's still preached today. There's been another recent sermon

that preached an example of withholding and permissibility for it, and that it's such an important issue that God himself would make inanimate objects

preach the gospel if it was truly meant to be. So if you don't preach it, just assume that God closed your mouth. An inanimate object standing next to you

or next to the person who asked would receive the gospel. But there are people that truly look to the LLC as being next to God himself

as the ultimate authority, and it's extremely troubling. It has separated the congregation in Gillette. Someone here.

This is Pat Lake here from Wolf Lake. We recently, or a couple minutes ago there, I spoke with Jim Frantti, and they wanted to wish to leave here about 5 o'clock,

so we're going to close now. If there is, as I'm sure many other speeches, people would like to speak, but it's getting late. And I'd encourage each of you to reach out to one another

and visit some more. As Jim and I also talked, I don't think at this time we're going to plan or schedule any further meetings of this nature.

Maybe rather it would happen in groups of one or two going forward. I would like to read a portion from 2 Timothy, the third chapter.

These are my thoughts here today in closing. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them,

and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God.

It is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The interesting thing about scriptures is we can all go and find a portion or one passage that fits something that we would like to believe. But if we search scriptures in its entirety,

the answer to scripture is always faith. Faith is found in scripture. We do not need to look outside of scripture for the answer. Why?

This is God's word. And in closing, I'd like to yet say to each of you, even now you can believe all of your sins forgiven. In Jesus' name and blood.

I believe Darwin is closing or filled with the closing prayer. And then after that, they had asked me if I would make an announcement that we'll take advantage of all you wonderful people here.

We'll take a collection for the benefit of our building fund. Well, first of all, I did not take a speaking turn here. And I think for the most part, many are aware of how I believe. But I would respond to Sam.

I don't know if you felt that I desire a speaking position or you insinuated that, but in no way do I desire the position. And in fact, I tried to pawn it off to Phil quite a few times. Nevertheless, when it comes to serving and thinking,

well, if things are difficult, should we just ask to be taken down? I have read scripture. And Jonah did not want to go and preach in Nineveh. It did not go well for him.

So when the congregation has asked me to speak, I speak. And when they ask me to sit, I'll happily sit. So that's that position. Secondly, in regards to sermons,

we each serve with the gifts we have. I always try, not that we're vessels of clay, but one, stick to them. What is the message of the text?

What is the message of scripture? And that is my first attempt when I speak. Stay with the text. I'm a messenger of God, and I bring God's message

in ways that whatever gifts I have. Second, speak about Jesus Christ. He's the joy and hope of my salvation, and he's the joy and hope of mankind.

And third, I've been reminded to remember to preach the familiar audible gospel message that we know. I don't always remember these things in vessels of clay. That's how it is.

But those are my intents to serve with what I have. And then last of all, for myself, my faith is based on Jesus Christ. I own Jesus Christ personally,

and he is my hope and my joy and my salvation. I don't place any confidence in my own ability or what I will do for believing, but I place it upon him.

My Lord has accomplished on my behalf what I need before God. So I say, it's the Lord's work. And I place all my trust in the Lord.

I can't turn to myself for understanding and wise words and wisdom, and I don't encourage anybody to turn to me. Turn to the Lord.

Let's study the word together. So that would be my confession of how I believe. Let's all join together in asking for the blessing of the Lord

in the familiar Lord's benediction. The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us.

The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, amen.

Thank you. Thou didst not depart us, we lay our hopes divine. Thou didst not depart us, our hope's unbounded by. If Christ our Lord and Master

Befriend us from above What more would we ask her Than drive us from this world This we believe, yea, rather

Of this we make our goals And God is our dear Father The bread who loves us most Whatever ways he died us

Our Savior is at hand Through stormy seas to guide us And bring us safe to them He built on this salvation

That Jesus and his blood Of old are our salvation Our true eternal good Without Him all that pleases

Is valueless on earth Oh, what compared to Jesus Jesus, can be a greater word. He canceled our offenses, delivered us from death.

He is the Lord who cleanses Our souls from sin to grave In him we can be cheerful And hold the dawn's dead aim

In him we are not fearful Of God's great judgment day But God can thou condemn us Nor set our hope aside

Thou well, O Lord, can claim us Nor take us from His side No sentence can renew us No will destroys our peace

For Christ our Lord doth love us And shields us by His grace