LLC Ministers' Camp, Stony Lake, April 15–17, 2016

who works as an administrative assistant or secretarial position, and she has really been doing a great job there. She's got a heart for the work and was a big help. So now we hired her dad, and she's kind of telling him what he should do. So we've got those two new workers at the office. And then probably most of you know that in Arizona, they have been working on a new pastor for Serving Phoenix and Prescott.

Valley and they have now worked out everything. It looks pretty positive with our brother Harari Vahayulka. I'm anxious to see how they handle his name in Arizona and there. But Harari is going to come, I don't know Mikko, is it August does it look like he's coming?

So he will, for those of you who don't know him, he's a young brother with a family. He'll bring about seven of his 13 children, I think, with him. He's an ordained minister in Vivascula and he will be a very big asset not only to the Arizona congregations, but he'll be a shared pastor that we'll use in LLC work as well.

and i find it really interesting how god continues to build connections between our zions here and overseas it feels like god knows what's ahead and he's preparing us bringing us together facilities needs i mentioned the expansion here at stoney lake but we also have saskatchewan and the northwest

Looking at need for new facilities and may not be too long before, at least in Saskatchewan, we see the possibility of a facility there. So we're excited about that. But we also have congregations working on plans for church facilities.

Elk River is hoping to break ground this year on a new church. Glendale is fundraising for that. Monticello is trying to see if they can find an old golf course to use for their facility. So you know we've got congregations that are working on these things as well. So the facilities needs continue to grow.

We've got new and younger workers and it's so encouraging, but it also means that we need to support them. Even you brothers who are old here, I said you brothers who are older, you know that when you were working as a young beginning worker in the kingdom, you needed support. You needed help. And so do the young workers of today.

And so we need to continue to find ways to support them. We work continually more closely with our sister organizations in Finland and Sweden. In fact, just yesterday we had a teleconference meeting, our Skype meeting with the SFC board members in Sweden.

so we could update each other on what work is going on and continue to plan our mutual work. Next April, April 5th through the 7th, I think the dates are tentatively, we will be having representatives from the SRK staff and board and the SFC board

travel to America here to offices in Loretto to meet with us for about three days to plan our mutual work. So we continue to work like that. I would say over the last three months we have probably Skyped with our SRK brothers, I don't know, half a dozen times just to visit about timely topics. So we continue to work closely and that's been really a great blessing.

And so we have felt this continued guidance that God gives and the way he wants to work to bring us together. You know, I think about Jesus before his death when he prayed to the Heavenly Father on behalf of his own in what we call his high priestly prayer.

he made two special requests to the Heavenly Father for his own. One was that you would keep them from the evil. And the other was that they may be one as you, Father, and I are one. Those were the two things he prayed. And he prayed those for us also. That we would be spared from the evil and that we could be one. And even this kind of weekend, it does that.

work of uniting us. And then I will mention finally in talking about some of the work of today that we have just been working on the 2017 operating plan. We've got the draft printout of the operating plan booklet that we have reviewed and we brought it to the LLC board last Saturday.

for their review and input. This will be coming out to the congregations now for your discussions in preparation for the annual meeting. The theme for this booklet for this year, or for 2017, comes from Proverbs, chapter 14, verse 26 of Proverbs, which reads in this way, In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence, and his children shall have a place of refuge.

So, and there you see, I just lifted this one part of the text from the conclusion in this booklet, that in this world the wholesome fear of God is disappearing. Surrounded by this increasingly secular society and the unrest in the world, a child of God may begin to worry and feel insecure.

However, God's word promises that his children will have a place of refuge. It is good to know that it is still a time of work and that God's kingdom is built on the unchanging foundation of his word with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. God's love dispels our fear and leaves us with a wholesome, humble fear of him who has so loved us.

So that's our planning that's going on now for 2017. So that's a quick snapshot of some of the updates on the work and if you have questions about that you can interrupt me or we can return to these later here this evening or tomorrow or Sunday.

Then I turn to this area, second part of this assignment I had to talk about some of the current conditions or concerns of today. First of all, I would just say that it's a time of work, but it's not just a time of work for God's kingdom. The enemy of souls also is saying it's a time of work. And he tries to attack on many fronts God's children.

Of course his goal is to cause us to, by sin, fall away from faith. But oftentimes the enemy, I think he knows very well, if he can divide us, if he can cause things to come between us, he can be the most successful. You know, if we're isolated and divided, we don't have the support from each other that we so much need.

And I'm sure that for you brothers, it's like with me. I think it's probably especially true for those of us who serve. It's true for all believers, but I think especially for us. We feel how much we need God's kingdom and each other and the support. So when we think about some of these issues or concerns that come up,

We know it's, you know, the enemy's trying to divide us. And let's remember, brothers, that always in these things and in this battle of faith, we don't fight against one another. God's children don't fight against one another. Together we fight against a common enemy, the enemy of souls.

And when we are not in this battle alone, but we can battle together and above all, when God is on our side, there's reason to have hope. Recent discussions that we've had and questions that have come up, I've listed a few things here, but before even touching on these, I would say that I'm sure that many, if not all of you, have heard about some of the recent meetings that we have held here in

In fact, as recently as a week ago today, we had a meeting that involved LLC board, Minneapolis board and speakers, Rockford and Wolf Lake board and speakers, and some of our staff members as well.

And before I'm done here, I'm going to ask our brother Keith to just give you a kind of a brief summary of some of those meetings. Only for this purpose that if you have heard about them and you've wondered what's the deal here or what's happening, at least you could have a little picture of what's going on.

i want to say something about each of these bullet items here it's going to be just brief i'm not going to try to give some comprehensive thing because our thought is that tomorrow we have several discussion times for which you see no topics assigned on the agenda and our thought was that we could try to hit some of these not necessarily all of these but at least some of these topics

in those discussion times and just have some free and open discussion about them. Some of these areas are questions that they're not limited to any one area or congregation or individual, but they have been coming up here and there. And it's important that we are understanding these things in the same way. God's Spirit doesn't teach

me one understanding and Jim here another one and and Sam another one but his spirit is a spirit that gathers together and enlightens and when we're together like this we trust that God's spirit will help us because our understanding is only in part for every one of us here there's not a one of us gathered here who understands these things so well is there

but collectively god helps us with his spirit so first of all i know there has been discussion about the sermon from the 2015 summer services that left some people troubled and other people felt good about that sermon but you know enough enough question and concern was raised that that

The sermon was not kept on the archives just because that's such a public forum and we didn't want any possibility of that being there to create misunderstandings. But the text that's in question, I just wanted to show you the text because we talk about it and then we don't always read the text. Here's what the Bible says from 1 Corinthians 7.

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me, Paul's writing to the Corinthians, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every that should be man not moan, have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence, and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer, and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

I would say that the majority of discussion has been around this verse 5. And what does it say? You know, the language, the King James Version language is a little bit challenging to understand. I looked it up in the ESV Bible. And so when you see this up here, I'll tell you what the ESV Bible says.

ESV reads in this way for verse 5. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time that you may devote yourselves to prayer, but then come together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. Okay, that's what the ESV Bible says. Now, I...

You know, we don't know the specific questions that they had written to Paul that he was addressing. But sometimes this portion of scripture has been referenced when the question comes up about abstinence. And I'm not going to try to explain this right now, but I would just like to say this much that we understand that

birth control is sin. Children are God's gifts. God's word instructs us on being fruitful and multiplying, and He is the giver and creator of life. Children are God's gifts. And so birth control is sin. And abstinence, which this verse 5 addresses,

If it's for the purpose of birth control, then at least by my weak understanding, it's sin. It doesn't mean that a couple never can practice abstinence from intimate relations. We know there are times. There are times in a married couple's life when there's health issues, maybe serious health issues.

that make it not only unwise but maybe even physically impossible to have intimate relations. And couples, you know, they freely understand when those times are there. They talk about them together and they know that this is not a time when we can have intimate relations.

and they know when that time has passed and then they can return to their their um relations in their married life so it's not it's not a question that

We would say that there is never a time when in a married couple's life they cannot abstain. I mean there are times when there's no choice. It has to be love and as it's sometimes said the law of nature even teaches us that. The question is when it's done for the purpose of preventing children.

And if we look for reasons, if we begin to say as a couple, mom is tired, lots of children, lots of work at home, it's not a good time to have children, therefore we're going to practice abstinence, then to me we're going down the wrong path and a slope that's going to take us we don't know where. It would feel really dangerous to go that way. And so there were

were some going back to the sermon i would say that there were some who took it that way and so you know we felt it was safer not to have it on the archives for sure but it's a topic that if you brothers want to discuss i know we'll have time to discuss further because my little in a nutshell explanation is not meant as any final answer on this at all

Dear brothers, I understand only in part, less than most of you, I have to say. Another question that has come up is about divorce and remarriage. Now, I would first say that it doesn't seem to me to be a major issue. We're not hearing a lot of this coming up here and there, but the question did come up. And the question seemed to be,

this that if a person is divorced and remarried in unbelief and then one or both parties in the marriage repent can they still live together as husband and wife can they still live together in a conjugal relationship or do they have to separate or do they have to live like brother and sisters or

And, like I said, I don't think it's a major question, but, you know, it feels to me, just again, I'm sharing my understanding of this, it feels to me like when what's done in unbelief is done in ignorance. In fact, Paul said of himself that his persecution of the believers was done in ignorance of unbelief.

When someone receives the grace of repentance, we freely preach the gospel and it is unconditional. So we can't begin to say we'll preach the gospel but, you know, we don't preach the gospel conditionally.

And so it feels like we preach the gospel, people who have had this kind of experience in their life, and then if they repent, you know they're going to carry already the burden of what they did in unbelief. That's going to live with them. We don't want to add to that burden.

We want to forgive and pray that God gives us strength to continue together and continue believing. Question of forgiveness. At last Friday's meeting, this is a discussion that occupied almost all of our time. The question that has been raised is this. Could there ever be a situation where a person asks for forgiveness

And the children of God do not or cannot preach forgiveness. And some have, when that question has been raised, sometimes it has felt like it's been raised with an answer already in mind that there cannot ever be such a time.

To me, that feels like a pretty all-encompassing and sweeping conclusion. I don't feel like I can say that there could never be such a time. I don't know, how can I tie God's hands and say God can never allow this to happen? It has happened. In fact, in the Old Testament, 1 Samuel chapter 15,

god prevented samuel from preaching forgiveness to saul even though saul asked for forgiveness but his repentance was conditional saul said the people were the ones who did this but bless me you know it was a conditional thing he didn't own up to his sins but he wanted the blessing and we could discuss other portions of scripture i'm sure

But when we talk about this topic of forgiveness, I just feel like it would be so broad and so all-encompassing to say there can never be such a time. I don't feel like we can say that. Even believers' experiences, I don't think, would support that statement.

Of course, the mission of God's kingdom is to preach forgiveness. That's our mission, to preach forgiveness. And when someone asks forgiveness, we preach forgiveness.

We don't measure people's hearts. We don't know. We can't. It's impossible. We can't measure how penitent they are. We don't see into the hearts. God said, I don't look on people like man does. People look on the outward things. I look on the heart. We can't see that. So our duty is to preach forgiveness to anyone who is penitent and ask for forgiveness.

Does that mean there could ever be a time when God's kingdom doesn't preach forgiveness? Well, I shared an example last Friday from my own life, and I'll share it here just because it has helped me to think about this matter. In our congregation, we have for many years had services in a nursing home in our area.

And there's a couple of believing sisters there. But a lot of the residents would come to those services. There was one lady, elderly lady, who came regularly. And I knew her. In fact, I knew her family. I had known her children from my younger days. She was in heresy. She was in the kirkkokunta, the heresy. Had been all of her life. She used to come to the services.

So one Sunday we were having communion for those believing sisters there and she came for communion. And when I came to her to serve communion, she kind of put up her hand and she said something to me and it wasn't clear to me what she said. But I thought, I asked her, I said, did you want your sins forgiven? Do you want to believe?

She said, my sins are already forgiven. I've been a Christian all my life. I just wanted a blessing. You know, it felt to me like in that kind of testimony, I couldn't give her a blessing. It would be like somewhat akin to greeting someone who's in heresy, as if recognizing them as a believer. I did not feel in good conscience I could bless her.

So I would ask you brothers, did I do wrong in that? It didn't feel like I could in that kind of conditional repentance. So for that reason, I don't feel like we can make such a sweeping statement here.

But even though we can't, I think we still would all agree that our goal and desire is to preach forgiveness. It's our mission. And we do it freely, we do it unconditionally, and we do it without examining the heart. That's our goal, to preach forgiveness.

But I think that, you know how the rumor mill works? I've often said that it doesn't matter how the economy is, the rumor mill always operates at full steam. And I think what's happened with the rumor mill is somehow there has been word spread around that some brothers are teaching that you can withhold or deny forgiveness when someone asks.

I haven't heard any brothers say that. I have only heard this kind of examples that I just shared with you, spoken of. I have not heard any brothers say that we deny forgiveness or can't withhold it because we don't think the person is penitent enough. That's not our place, brothers, to judge that.

In fact, I gave an example last Friday. Many of you brothers have been on foreign mission trips. I mean, you go there and you don't know these people from anybody. They're all strangers. They come to the services, and in the services, they raise their hand and ask for a blessing. And what do you brothers do? You freely preach the gospel. It's not our place to judge.

And if their repentance is sincere, God gives the increase. And if it's not, God knows the heart and he reveals that in his time. We are not in the places of judges. We're not in the place of withholding forgiveness.

So that is not at all the question. And what has puzzled me is why has this question come up and why are people so troubled? And then I began to realize that some people have been hearing, here's what's being taught, but I have never heard it taught that way.

And I don't know if any of you brothers have, but on this question, I mean, I understand if someone thought that there's a teaching amongst us, this group, that we as individual believers can withhold forgiveness. I understand why that would bother somebody. It would bother me. But that hasn't been taught. And I think one of the reasons I've been thankful for this weekend is

that we brothers can quell those rumors and we can comfort and console the believers that the teaching of God's kingdom has not changed. We're still on the same foundation. It hasn't changed. I know that one of the sources of this coming up as a question goes back to the caretaking of the 70s and 80s.

And we well know that there was a time, after battling against the lenient spirit, that there were those who began to dry up and collapse. And there was a time, and actually I didn't live through a lot of this because my wife and I were in the heresy and we received the grace of repentance in the late 70s.

But nevertheless, I know that there was this time when there were caretaking situations that got carried away. People erred in drying up in those situations. And so, you know, we acknowledge that that happened, and we don't want that ever to happen again. But that's not happening today, is it?

I don't experience at any place that it's happening today. It was a sad time when it did. It distressed a lot of people when it didn't. But to my knowledge, the people on both sides of those issues, they asked for forgiveness.

They were forgiven. I think most of them have passed away and they've left a testimony. And I don't want to dig up their old failings. And I don't want to question the testimony that they left. It's not fruitful for me. It's not food for me to do that.

It's a good lesson. I don't say we can never talk about the 70s and 80s. It's a good lesson. But I would be fearful if we went in the direction of bringing up individuals' failings and mistakes. Because that's really not food for us. But can we agree, dear brothers, that we live in a time when forgiveness is freely preached?

You know what I think? The fact that I'm here with you as a believer says that because I have needed a lot of forgiveness. If it were not for the way believers freely forgive, I couldn't be here with you tonight as a brother in faith.

God's kingdom is a place of forgiveness, dear brothers, and our duty is to preach the gospel. And then, finally, we have heard in some of our discussions some negative sentiments with regard to the LLC. In recent discussions, for example, we have heard it expressed

the llc brothers and i'm not sure who that means exactly if it means the board or the staff or some of each or i don't know but but that llc brothers are long-minded or heavy-handed and i want to freely bring this up because first of all i i want to say that you know i've been

I've been attending LLC board meetings since 1984. I haven't served on the board all that time, but I've been at meetings. These brothers that serve on our board today have been at many, many meetings with these brothers. I have to tell you, they are humble servants.

At our meetings, they oftentimes have needed to hear the gospel, and they serve because God's kingdom has asked them to serve. And when we think about how much God has done for us, how can we say no if he asks us to serve? Isn't that why you're serving, dear brothers? Every one of you here tonight has been asked to serve, and you didn't feel free to say no.

God has done so much for you. How can you say no to his congregation when they ask you to serve? But I say that we don't want our service to be such that it troubles God's children.

You don't want your service to be that way. And the brothers at LLC, whether it's on the board or the staff, we don't want our service to be that way. And if there is a feeling from brothers, from you brothers, that this kind of heavy-handed or law-minded way of serving exists or has existed, I hope you take care of it.

those who have served in this way we want to serve as humble servants the examples that were given in some of our discussions that are examples of what made this statement be made about being law-minded one was this removal of the summer service sermon from the archives

Another was that the office has sent out in recent years in preparation for our summer and winter services letters to the brothers who have been asked to serve. And in that letter, it's been just a loving reminder that at those services we're serving in a very big and public event and encouraging us to feel free to choose familiar texts.

I appreciated that advice, but at one meeting it was said to us that that's a very dangerous and wrong piece of advice to give. It means that we're not trusting in God's Spirit. And also there has been the statement that the LLC has tried to quell or to orchestrate discussions on abstinence and forgiveness. So these are some of the examples.

And I can tell you, dear brothers, that they have weighed heavily on some of us. There are some brothers here who have lost a lot of sleep in recent months because they worry that, is my service like this?

Well, I'm going to pause right here for a moment and I'm just going to ask our brother Keith to read from a summary he prepared for last Friday's meeting. Just a little bit of a summary about the recent meetings that have been held so that you can hear what they have been and feel like you at least have some level of understanding of what has taken place.

So at our April 8th meeting, Minneapolis Church, as Jim mentioned, our Wolf Light brothers, LLC boards and staff members, Minneapolis and Rockford congregation boards and speakers. And so I gave the explanation at that meeting of what has transpired, what has brought us to that April 8th meeting. And I'll share...

this part of this introduction tonight with a few additional comments that I didn't mention at April 8th. Just to give you an explanation of how it happened that we progressed to the April 8th meeting, which was a quite large gathering, indicating the seriousness of the discussion at hand.

So in this explanation, I use terms of LLC, Wolf Lake, LLC brothers, Wolf Lake brothers, and of course we're all brothers in faith. But just to try to, for the economy of words, explain things, I use those terms, but it's...

It feels sometimes difficult to have to express things in that way. But now when we talk about those who are involved in the meeting from LLC, that's who we're talking about with LLC Brothers. That is in the meetings prior to April 8. Then I'm going to mention also some individuals' names.

to explain things, including my own, to explain things, how it happened. I feel like it's good to be open and clear. People are hearing this and that about these things. Along the way, as Jim has mentioned already, there are rumors been heard, and I would say rumors that have gone both ways.

Some that have been wrongly directed at brothers from Wolf Lake, and some that I think have been wrongly directed at those of us who serve LLC. So this is done in the spirit of openness and touching on brothers that are present here, but yet the thought is that we need to be open so that we're all there together.

as to what has happened, because as we have talked about these things, we find that when people hear what has happened, it also gives security to know how it's transpired. So for the April 8th meeting, I gave this kind of background that the purpose

In background, the purpose of the meeting is to prayerfully consider matters that have caused division among believers and which have especially become manifest in the latter part of 2015 and now in the first quarter of 2016. These differences have become very evident since the 2015 LLC summer services, but they do reach further into the past.

especially the December 3rd, 2011, the meeting of the boards of the Midwestern areas, which we refer to as MITMAC, which is held every year at the Rockford Church, includes boards from Minnesota and Saskatchewan and North Dakota. So that 2011 meeting, some of these questions originated there.

More recent discussions have originated from differing views on a sermon that Jim has already mentioned, 1 Corinthians 7, by our brother Darwin Lake at the 2015 Summer Services and Outlook. The sermon left some feeling troubled and others welcomed the message. After considering the concerns raised about the sermon, some LLC staff and board members

made the decision to remove the sermon from the LLC website sermon archives. Randy Harlow contacted Brother Darwin to ask to personally visit with Darwin about the decision. The new LLC executive director, Eric Jurmu, was to join the discussion.

Darwin asked that the entire Wolf Lake Board would be involved in the visit, to which Randy and Eric agreed. It was then decided that Pastoral Committee Chairman Jim Jurmu would also participate in this expanded meeting, and that meeting was held on July 19th at Stony Lake Camp here last summer.

The fact that the meeting was unable to reach common understanding led to two more meetings, one on September 30, 2015, and the other March 16, 2016, in Wolf Lake and Managa, respectively. The group of LLC board and staff members was further expanded for those meetings.

So the expanded group of LLC brothers included Randy, well Randy and Eric and Jim were involved in the original meeting. Jim Frantti, myself, Yoko Hopsari and John Bloomquist participated in the September 30th meeting.

And then the same group in 2016 with the addition of Steve Hadia, who is a new pastoral committee member. So we had the two meetings, September 30th and March 16th. At these meetings, we met as brothers in faith, looking for guidance of the Heavenly Father. The gospel was preached one to another, even individually caring for matters with each other.

The discussions were open with many freely sharing their thoughts. But unity of understanding was not restored and love continued to be strained. During the course of these discussions, differences over other matters than the summer services sermon were raised. And the forgiveness question in particular that Jim has already talked about.

The meetings were long and we found that there was not time to visit about all the matters of concern. Further discussion was suggested at the end of the March 16th meeting. Some Wolf Lake participants felt that the group of meeting participants needs to be expanded.

and suggested Minneapolis and Rockford board members and ministers. So that took place, that expanded meeting on April 8th of LLC board, some LLC staff directors, Minneapolis and Rockford boards and speakers, and Wolf Lake board and speakers. And there were 52 or 53 participants in that meeting. It was held at the Minneapolis church.

The enemy has been able to use this situation to break the love of the believers in the Wolf Lake Managa area and more broadly in other localities as well. Discussion of these matters has broadened beyond the above mentioned meetings. The Wolf Lake board held a meeting with the Wolf Lake congregation on December 27, 2015 to get input on the matters in question.

The congregation, the Wolf Lake congregation, encouraged further discussions on the matters with the LLC and suggestions were made to expand the group of meeting participants. That is, suggestions from the Wolf Lake congregation. More recently, a question, now talking about how there's been broader discussions, more recently a question was asked at a congregation discussion

during Rockford's Mary's Day services, March 19, 2016. That discussion, Jim was one of the visiting ministers there, and he was asked by the congregation to keep a presentation on forgiveness. Not as an answer to these questions, not for that purpose, but forgiveness as a general spiritual topic, doctrinal topic.

just as we do in other congregations that are special services. At that discussion meeting, one of the service guests asked a question about the meetings between LLC and the Wolf Lake Congregation, expressing some question about, or concern, it felt even about,

fact that there would be a question about not forgiving so the discussion was already well spent that evening and we debated I guess individually in our hearts and minds what to do those of us that have been involved in these meetings and

debated whether we can say anything about it. At that point, we hadn't discussed it broader than the group Wolf Lake Brothers and LLC Brothers. But at any rate, my wife told me not to get into it because it's going to, she felt like it just couldn't be explained.

in that meeting setting. But I ventured into trying to answer in the spirit of trying to be open and answer the sister's question. And so I gave a brief answer and noted that the discussions are ongoing and asked for the prayers of the congregation.

But then after the discussion, it seemed that some of the participants there that night, a couple of people expressed to me, one that night and one later, that it seemed to them that when I made the speech there, then the speeches that followed kind of were correcting what I had said.

And I will openly admit there was a difficult question to answer often without preparation, but I answered them in the same way as I would answer now that same question. And so my understanding hasn't changed since that meeting, even though I may not have expressed it very clearly that evening.

So by saying this, we see how these discussions have become more broad. And that night in Rockford, we could see that the discussions were not just discussions that had happened between Wolf Lake Brothers and LLC, they're being discussed more amongst believers. So in that light, I think really important brothers, even though it's kind of hard to visit about these things, when those of us involved have,

present but I think we need to be open and just tell what's happened discuss what's happened and most importantly try to discuss the topics at hand so that we understand them according to Scripture

We have an important role, dear brothers, as shepherds in the congregation, as servants of the word, and it's so essential that we understand matters and teach and preach in one spirit, doctrine, with the mind of Christ. Okay.

So, perhaps on your minds right now, dear brothers, there would be a lot of thoughts and questions and comments to share, which I hope we're able to hear this weekend. I know the time is marching on, the hour is getting late now, and it doesn't feel like there would be sufficient time to address these important questions.

this evening and so our thought was that

Tomorrow, there's several, you'll note, several discussion times with no topics assigned. And what we thought was that we could maybe pick some of these topics that have come up here and try to discuss each of them openly and freely so that we can collectively come to understanding that God, I trust that God's spirit is here and is guiding us

and will guide us in those discussions. And so I would just like in wrapping up my part to share some Bible portions with you. And by not, you know, having a chance to discuss tonight, it's not meant that

somehow quell any discussion, but it just feels like if there's time for you to think about what's been shared tonight, then we can freely have all the time to visit tomorrow. There will be no real presentations. It will be open discussion time. But I would

I would share a couple of Bible portions here with you. First of all, Paul's second letter to Timothy. When he says, I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom. Preach the word. Be instant in season, out of season. Reprove, rebuke,

exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

But watch now in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. It's good advice to us. And you know, I know that a lot of you younger brothers here, you didn't live through the time of the last heresy.

But this passage was discussed a lot then because there were those who strayed away from the truth and the teachings of God's word. They wanted to live according to their own understandings.

I had a very good friend of mine, who I visited with after I received the grace of repentance, who said to me, if something is sin for you, if your conscience tells you it's sin, you shouldn't do it. But if my conscience doesn't convict me that it's sin, I'm free to do it. But that's not how God's Spirit works. God's Spirit doesn't teach you something is sin and me that it's not.

God's spirit is a spirit of truth. And so we want to remain in the understandings that God's spirit teaches. And that's why we need each other. Because none of us has all understanding. We see things in part, we understand in part. This one is small text, I know, but...

Well, I test your eyesight, but I will read it for you. This comes from Paul's letter to the Romans. I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

and be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. For I say through the grace given unto me to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office, so we being many are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith, or ministry, let us wait on our ministry. Or he that teaches on teaching, or he that exhorteth on exhortation, he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity.

He that ruleth with diligence. He that showeth mercy with cheerfulness. Let love be without dissimulation.

Abhor that which is evil, cleave to that which is good, be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love, and honor, prefer one another. 2 Timothy 4, 1-5

And this one is Romans 12, 1 through 10. And dear brothers, I wanted to share this Bible portion with you, especially because, you know, Paul speaks about how we are all part of that same body. We don't all have the same gifts. We don't all have the same understanding. Some more understanding maybe, but...

But we all have the same faith and the same spirit, and we need to be in unity. And especially this part struck me when he says, let love be without dissimulation. You know, to make it clear in my own mind, I looked up the word dissimulation. Here's what it said, or meaning. Concealment of one's thoughts, feelings, or character. Pretense. Deceit. Dishonesty.

guile faking posturing hypocrisy you know so paul was trying to encourage openness don't don't hide what you think don't be something different than you are be open and dear brothers that's so important that's what i pray for this weekend that we can just be open books

You know how Paul wrote to the Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, I think it's the third chapter, when he said that we don't need letters of commendation until, because you are our epistles, written in the heart, known and read of all men. And it's important that we also are that way, that we're open. That, you know, the enemy would want to create

distrust, or maybe envy, or differences among us. That's the enemy's work. It's not anybody's work. It's not any of your work. You don't want that. None of us want that. We want there to be love between us and unity. And God's Spirit will help us in this, especially if we can just be open and be who we are.

God's Spirit will help us. You know, these are not unfamiliar portions, but as servants, we can feel like Paul feels, or felt, I should say, when he wrote to the Corinthians about how he felt when he came to them without excellency of speech or wisdom to declare the testimony of God.

And he said, For I determined not to know anything among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I ask you brothers, have you ever had feelings like Paul in serving you? But for those who serve, the power is the same as for all believers. It's the gospel. That's the power of God unto salvation.

And it's the gospel that will also care for matters between us and that can keep us in unity of love and spirit. It's important that between us there is that kind of unity of love and spirit.

I would, in closing here, I would like to just read one other part of scripture, but it's not on my presentation. I'll tell you why I'd like to read this. I actually shared this with our LLC board at our meeting on Saturday.

Well, I was thinking today about, we have some here today I know who have recently suffered loss in their families. [family details omitted]

Not so very long ago we lost a servant. We had 115 speakers but we have 114 now because our dear brother Quentin passed away.

You know, some of us knew Quentin better than others, but Quentin was a dear brother. In the last part of his life, God took away his speech. He couldn't serve anymore.

But I remember his years of service on that LLC board. And I went with my wife to visit Quinn. It was only like a couple of months or something before he passed away. He couldn't talk at all. The staff told us he talks with his eyes. And when I sat and visited with him, when something struck him,

He would lean forward and he would just stare intently. It was the only way he could communicate. And I told Quentin, I said, Quentin, I really appreciate it.

your service on the board during all those years that you served. And I said, there's one thing I remember about your serving on the board, and it was a portion of the Bible that you often referred us to. When we'd have discussions about even difficult matters, you often ended those by quoting this part of the Bible. And I read it to him, and he started to cry. I knew he understood what I was saying.

Here's the part that he would read to us. It comes from Philippians, the fourth chapter, especially the eighth and ninth verses. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just,

Whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things which ye have both learned and received and heard and seen in me, do, and the God of peace shall be with you.

And those were always such comforting words. Think about the good positive things. I know that our brothers Dan and Don over here will remember Quentin referring often to this portion to us. And it was a good reminder that when the enemy wants to drag up all of these questions and difficulties, let's remember the good things.

you know dear brothers if we put a balance you know a scale in front of us tonight and we put the good things that we have received from god being in his kingdom on one pan and the bad things on the other i don't have to tell you which way it looked in do i you know which way it looked in

God has given us an unspeakable gift when we can be in his kingdom. Paul counted it as a blessing to be able to serve. Unto me who am less than the least of all saints was this grace given that I could make known the mysteries of the faith. That's how he felt. He wasn't bragging that he was a good choice to serve. He was less than the least of the saints.

But he was thankful that he could serve the Lord Jesus who had served him with his life. So even tonight, dear brothers, you know, some of these things that I brought up, they may be, you know, kind of difficult things. And I know they have caused some distress and worry amongst some believers. And I think part of our...

duty as speakers is to remind the believers of those good things. The good lot of being a child of God. It doesn't mean we don't speak about sin or rebuke of sin. It doesn't mean that. But it means that in the end, there's no better place to be than in God's kingdom.

Do you agree with me, dear brothers? Do you say like Peter said to Jesus, where else would we go? You have the words of eternal life. And they're still with us. God hasn't taken those words of life away. He hasn't taken the gospel away from us. It's still here with us tonight, dear brothers. Even the poorest one can yet believe all sins forgiven.

jesus jesus jesus

It's a good place to be here in God's kingdom where forgiveness is freely preached even to us faulty ones who feel often less than the least of the saints.

May God keep us together on the way to heaven. We want to reach heaven. And the gospel is what gives us the power to get there. And it's the power also to serve your brothers. But I was so hesitant in even coming to bring forth some of these things here tonight. I didn't want my words to cause offense or division.

I only wanted to be open with you and speak what's on my heart because I don't want the enemy to get a foothold between us. And I pray that this weekend we can have free and open discussion. And on Sunday when we say goodbye, we will all rejoice and be thankful that we can be in this work together. But I ask you, dear brothers, invite me and believe my sins for you.

I want to believe together with all of you. Why don't we close our evening by together reciting the prediction. The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

I know that Keith was planning to remember those who have passed away, but I asked Keith if we could close our evening with song 202.

from the book of Zechariah, the fourth chapter. And the angel that talked with me came again and waited to me as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. And he said unto me, What seest thou?

And I said, I looked, and behold, a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and the seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps which are upon the top thereof, and two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my Lord? And the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my Lord. Then the angel that spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord. Unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

Who art thou, O great mountain? For as ever, all shall become plain. And ye shall bring forth the headstone thereof, with shoutings, crying, Grace, Grace. This portion, like all the word of God, contains

depths that are probably unplumbable by any one of us. One of the thoughts that I've contemplated these last days and weeks is that before the Word of God, we find ourselves often lacking in understanding and in

even sometimes comprehension of what did the Spirit intend with this or that message. But if we look upon the Word of God as a spiritual revelation, of course, as we're instructed to, without the key of the Holy Spirit, none of it can be opened, none of it can be even scratched.

then it also causes us to do that much homework that we want to follow familiar furrows and directions and ways that the Spirit has instructed before, taught before, preached before. And it causes us then to remain in those familiar paths that the

kingdom of god is will and will be nourished by and rejoice over or i think it's so important as we see from this happening in the life of the prophet zechariah that he had fallen asleep at least he says as awakened me is a man that has awakened all of his sleep

So when we look at their lives as they were trying to rebuild the city, the walls of Jerusalem and the temple at the same time, the prophets, Nehemiah relates to us that it was not an easy task. They had the weaponry of warfare in one hand and the tools of the trade for building in the other. The enemy would attack whenever they had to be on the wall, watching by day and night.

Nehemiah notes that none of them even took their clothes off except when they paused to wash. No wonder that they were brought to Zechariah, exhausted, worn out. But when the fellow servant Haggai came to him,

And Zachariah said, he waked me as a man that has waken out of his sleep. He said, what seest thou? He said, I have looked, and behold, candlestick all gone. Zachariah recognized that this is more than a problem with the congregation. This is mine. This is my problem. I felt that if I was exhausted, I was worn out from doing the work. The problem is mine.

The candlestick is all of gold. The congregation is precious, pure gold. It is where God dwells in his spirit. And that's where we want to be as Zechariah knows. The candlestick is all of gold. And then he says, after describing all the trees and so on, that what are these?

Haggai and Zechariah were there in personal services, a wonderful personal escort to help one another, as we also need our wrestlers in this way to keep us, help us, correct us. Haggai asked them, knowest thou not what these being and Zechariah says, know my Lord?

So do we then react in the same way? We come to these kinds of situations where do we understand? Don't we understand? What is the understanding that comes in the Kingdom of God? What does it lead us to? Don't we recognize then, as the Apostle Paul wrote, and it's already been quoted partially,

He wrote to the Corinthians about the preaching being and the demonstration of the Spirit and the power.

that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect, yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught. We speak the wisdom of God in the mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained for the world unto our glory. As it is written, I have not seen nor heard, neither has entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

for God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God. And he continues, Now we have received not the Spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which are freely given to us of God, which things we also speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches,

but which the Holy Ghost teaches, comparing spiritual things with the spiritual. Isn't it a wonderful place to be here, brothers, at the feet of Jesus, learning those ABCs, following His footsteps, following those pathways, where we learn and hear the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

We are of the old school boys in this regard, and we look at the depths of the word of God, and we have to say that, Lord, increase our faith. Give us understanding so that we can preach and teach. And so then, Aga,

He and Zechariah look at the greatness of the work and the power of the enemy, and will they be able to complete it? Haggai tells Zechariah, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit. That is how the work goes forward. Nothing that is of this world, nothing that is of the armed man of flesh,

but by the power of the Spirit of God to increase. Only by that power does the Word go forth. Because that Spirit has the power to seep into all things, the deep things of God. As we already discussed yesterday, we are not searchers of the thoughts, the intentions of the heart. The Word of God doesn't have the Spirit in us. It is sharper than any two-edged sword.

and it pierces, it searches the thoughts and the intentions of the heart. That is not our task. That is what Jesus promised. His word will do. It will judge. And we do not have to carry that burden for ourselves that are we judging. So that power of the Spirit

i've been thinking is what is going to be very necessary dear brothers especially as we go forward from this camp to bring this message of the work the kingdom of god the gospel the kingdom of god we have suffered

There's actually been, I thought of it as, after the heresy of Korah, there was the plague that struck the congregation. There's an illness in the congregation, and it is so necessary, as Moses commanded Aaron to take incense from the altar and run into the congregation to stand between the living and the dead, to show the power of the gospel.

to stop the plague. That is what also our task is, to stop the plague. We don't know how far, how wide this plague has spread. Some of the indications from some of the communications indicate that it's maybe much further than we can even imagine. But it doesn't make any difference as long as

We stand as one who watches on the walls. No matter how we are separated, as the prophet noted, on the walls there, as Jerusalem as they built, they were far apart, but they all had a trumpet. When the enemy attacked, that trumpet sounded really clear, so brothers, gather here. Here is where the enemy is attacking. Here we need to defend. The gospel is that which

We have been called to preach to you, brothers, for the salvation of souls, of all men. And it's so important that that trumpet sounds, a clear, distinct sound, so not only we as watchers on the wall can respond, but the congregation can respond. And there, where the plague has struck, the Israelites can be cared for with the fire of the Holy Spirit.

Didn't Paul write that? This foundation, as Zachariah here knows, is laid and it shall have some grace, grace unto it. But Paul notes that all those who build thereon, as we build on that foundation, whether gold, silver, wood, hay, stubble, every man's work shall be tried. For the day will reveal it.

What happens? The fire tries that. It burns off all that is burnable. And it's not easy, is it? It is not an easy thing to see our work burned by the fire of the Holy Spirit, but it's so important that it is. Because we have to be so humble, so self-corrupt, so worthy. We cannot drive our feet about the flames of the blood of this world, of our own sin and corruption, but by the power of the Spirit of God, we work.

gifts that god has given on each and every one of you are those gifts that his congregation needs for the work of the edification of his congregation his children his flock not ours his and that is why he's called us that's why he gathers us that is why we are sent onto the walls to work to build

any man's work suffer loss he himself should be saved yet so is my fire the holy spirit isn't it good to be there or even though we may suffer lost in us you lift up your hearts oh my god i believe in all things jesus jesus jesus jesus jesus

Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus.

Rejoice in the kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace, joy, and the Holy Spirit. I came to serve you. I support you. I give you my heart. I send courage. I thank you. I give you my heart. I send it to you. In Jesus' name, amen.

Brothers, as we begin our day,

and we'll want to know first of all that we have 88 88 participants I think last time we had 84 two years ago out of the 114 brothers who served and of course we know that

Obstacles come and brothers aren't able to make it. We made mention yesterday of some of those brothers, like brother Jim Moll, [family details omitted] I know Dave Anderson last week at the LLC board meeting mentioned how he would like to be here, but didn't think he would be able to. [health details omitted]

Other brothers that were mentioned yesterday, our dear brother Paul Nevala, Cokato, and Carl Ojalehto, we were visiting at coffee this morning, well Carl [health details omitted]. Art Simonson has often been here and as you've probably noticed in some of our publications that

picture that we have used of our taking a speaking term here, and it was such a nice picture of older and younger brothers serving together. Raimo Sevolainen, Mauri Hotari, brothers who have served faithfully. Also remember, Brother Mike Ruitta, [health details omitted]

And the other brothers that I may not be remembering and those that have obstacles, practical obstacles that we're able to overcome, we want to remember them in our prayers and share with them the discussions that took place.

But then somehow, I don't know, maybe it's my age, but I start thinking back of those beloved brothers whom I and some of these other brothers here served together for a couple of decades. Most of them have gone to their rest already.

And the many brothers who have served in this work, as Jim recalled, are rather quite in service as well. They have gone through struggles and battles and have reached the destination. And it's good to remember that they struggled as we struggle.

But as we heard this morning, through the power of God, they were able to lay down the sower's basket and go through their reward. And so somehow I thought that maybe it would be nice to start this day with those thoughts and to stand and sing that evening battle song, Church Bells Are Ringing.

602. 601.

Here.

Amen.

Over the meadows where the men are toiling,

Godly, inviting, come to Sabbath rest, To hold our nightly for the water's sweeping.

The twilight ends a week of summer. Far in the distance, bells remind the worker. Wash it away now, wash the threatened dust.

Wash every blemish on the Sabbath garment.

These bells are chiming, evening chores are ended. Lep are the sickle, scythe and slower's basket.

There by the furrows, there beside the field, Follows of the tillers, slumber still and silent.

Oh, white as cooling breezes, soft on the garden, drops the dew of evening. Airs fade to nothing, language falls away.

day is forgotten hunger fear and grieving

We were together, lifting one another. I have this grace I work beneath the sun.

Oh, everlasting shine on all my labors.

Father, beloved, working in the home fields. For yet a moment, hear the singing swallow.

Brother, soon the bell will chime. You'll leave your soul there with all your sorrow. Bells will be chiming. Listen, weary brother.

Bringing His order like the heavenly pastor. Tolling the Sabbath's sweet tranquility. Calling the chosen to be chosen.

Then there was a suggestion made that we would take a group picture at some point. So probably, let's look at maybe just after our afternoon discussion at maybe 4.30.

And then also at that time you'll take that collection that I mentioned yesterday if someone wants to contribute for the benefit of the camp. But as I mentioned, there's no camp fee. Probably need to do it outside, so I don't know. Is it supposed to rain? No? Okay. Alright.

Okay, so that's that. Any other practical details that I'm not remembering?

do you brothers need to stand up and stretch a little bit before we go into a couple hours of discussion fever yeah it's not a practical detail that's still important i had a chance to uh visit twice now right before i came because he's out west uh jim kevin made a promise that i would make his greetings too thank you i haven't done that yet thank you

Thanks, Pete. And if there's brothers that send special greetings, feel free, and things that we haven't remembered all, but they are all in our memory, and bring warm greetings to all of them, brothers from this camp. Art Simonson.

yeah steve also okay thank you thank you and ken will let and troy will have both said greetings also

Kevin Renoir.

Okay, so just to explain what approach we'll take today, the pastoral committee has considered this as Jim pointed out last night. So this morning session from now until 1130, which is lunch, we will discuss

the question of childbearing abstinence. And as an introduction for that part of the discussion,

As I mentioned last night, we want to openly share with you brothers the discussions that we have had together, LLC brothers and Wolf Lake brothers, to share the content of those discussions as a starting point for this discussion. And again, our purpose is to

to inform because we know that there's also discussion out there and important to have an opportunity to share with you what has happened and so that you have a chance to consider that, ask questions, and we can discuss it together as brothers in faith.

So I'll now this morning as we start to read the section of the introduction that I kept at the April 8th meeting, which explained this matter of 1 Corinthians 7, the discussions that we've had about that, which is...

You know, refer to the summer services sermon that we talked about last night that our brother Garvin kept. Then this afternoon, starting at 1 o'clock, I'll read the section of the introduction that we held at the April 8th meeting that talks about the forgiveness matter. And then we'll discuss that.

and then the evening is yet open for further discussion and we'll see where God's Spirit leads us as we visited this morning.

important that we all are here in the place of a disciple, here in what the Spirit has to speak to us in our own endeavor, in our own trial, in our own understanding, and in our own work, above all, in our own life of faith. And so, it doesn't look like anyone is really needing to

get up and move around, so is it okay if we just start all the way around? Okay. Take me a little while to get this to open up here.

Spinning, anyway. Something else here.

It says it's updating here, and we've got Wi-Fi on, and it's spinning, so there's hope, I think. Is Wi-Fi operational? Well, it's showing that it's on. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'll have my technical expert help me here. See, it's that document that's spinning down there.

So try to connect to my iPhone or phone.

Oh, this is the thing, brothers, when you use iPads in your sacred acts, too, remember that these kinds of things might happen, too. You start early enough, so that doesn't happen. All right.

The sentinels, yeah. What was it? Overbearing. Overbearing and heavy-handed. Overbearing? Yeah, he's had a lot going on with my computer. I had some updates on here. Okay, what was it for? I wanted to shut it down. There's one I'm missing. Oh, they were...

If you need to do anything, brothers, this might be a good time to do it.

He was just down there but I didn't see him. We were gone.

meeting participants about the discussions that we had had in the course of three meetings between LLC and LLC reps and Wolf Light Brothers. Okay, so of course, as I mentioned, regarding the 1 Corinthians 7, 1 through 7, which was the sermon text that our brother Darwin used in Outlook last summer.

Our discussions have been able to clarify that rumors and exaggerations have circulated about positions held by LLC and Wolf Lake Brothers. The enemy has used this situation to attempt to break the love of the believers through speech that has not put the best construction on the words of one another. It was good to be able to clarify the more glaring rumors

And that took place at the September 30th meeting and beyond. Much of our discussion has centered around 1 Corinthians 7, 1 through 7, and how it relates to trials a couple may experience in married life, which affect their intimate life, sexual relations, and childbearing.

It was noted that Paul's words in this text need to be approached in a humble way, not fully knowing the situation and matters Paul was addressing in prayer. While these words of Paul are likely not directly applicable to abstinence from sexual relations due to severe health difficulty of the mother,

Let me re-read that. While these words of Paul are not likely to be directly applicable to abstinence from sexual relations due to a severe health difficulty a mother may be experiencing, neither do those words of Paul preclude that.

This text has sometimes been used as support for those rare and extremely trying situations between a couple, which may require abstinence for a period of time. The fact that LLC and Wolf Light Brothers may understand the context Paul was speaking to in 1 Corinthians 7.5, that we may understand it differently, at least in part,

That perception that we understand it differently has given rise to the thought that LLC brothers understand that abstinence is not acceptable in any case and this is not true. So the fact that we may understand the background of the text differently

doesn't mean that LLC brothers think that abstinence is not acceptable at all.

Jim explained this last night already. Our discussions have brought out how a married couple experiences many different phases in life that can affect their intimate and sexual relations. We understand that there are situations, probably quite rare, where a couple may need to prayerfully, in the light of God's word, seek counsel of trusted believers and professional help without staying from sexual relations.

On the other hand, when a mother experiences a serious mental or physical illness, is healing from childbirth or injury, and is not able to give her body to the other, the law of love and also nature teaches the husband to respect his wife's need to heal and not initiate sexual relations at those times.

This is not, then, a situation where the couple, by mutual consent, prayerfully decides to abstain, but rather a husband loving and respecting his wife according to Christ's command to love one another.

This has been covered in the Voice of Zion in 1989 and 1993 in an article adapted from Ekki Reinikainen's mid-1980s writings in Finnish, which were in the Bayramius and SRK yearbook, 1985. Wolf Lake Brothers brought out the need for republishing this writing since it was done last in 1993.

It seems that we have a common understanding that abstinence is sometimes necessary when faced with serious health problems, but is sin when used for birth control purposes.

Yet, LLC brothers are troubled that some Wolf Lake brothers do not seem more concerned about the sermon dividing the minds of believers instead of gathering their thought. On the other hand, some Wolf Lake brothers have expressed that there are also those who have appreciated Darwin's sermon

saying that the sermon echoed how they believed and feeling good that the issue could be spoken about openly and that it answered their spirit. Wolf Lake brothers ask how LLC brothers reconcile that with the concerns that have arisen around the sermon. It also seems that some Wolf Lake brothers do not feel that the LLC was justified in removing the sermon from the archives.

Then the concerns that have been expressed about Darwin's sermon from summer services are as follows. It is a very sensitive text to use at summer services due to a varied audience and potential misunderstanding.

It serves better at a couples camp where there can be discussion. Some felt a somewhat demanding tone about the requirement of intimacy in marriage. And now when I'm saying these, I'm not saying that this is the position of LLC, but this is what concerns have been raised.

One example given raised concern. From it, one could get the understanding that it may be acceptable to abstain when together, when the couple is together. Let me explain that differently. If a father is working away for extended periods of time, not home very much,

when they come together, father does come home to visit, that it would be acceptable to abstain at that time because of the stress that is there or the situation that is there that the mother is along with the children for a long period of time.

There is a danger of straying down a path of reason regarding when it is acceptable to abstain, while losing sight of the message of faith, hope, and encouragement to trust in God's guidance and care.

The meetings also included a discussion about John Blomquist's 2010 LLC Ministers and Board Members Meeting presentation, which was held in, was it Rogers or Monticello? Rogers. And that presentation is entitled, God is Lord over Life and Death. Then there was a subsequent Voice of Zion article based on that presentation.

There seemed to be a feeling with some Wolf Lake brothers that John's introduction and interpretation is too tight in suggesting that Paul in the text allows abstinence only for purposes of prayer and fasting. Then a couple of items, areas that Jim touched on a bit that go now away from this sermon, but I'll read these two parts as well of the introduction.

First of all, perceptions about Wolf Lake. The Wolf Lake congregation, that is. Some Wolf Lake brothers express that they are troubled by comments they are hearing about the Wolf Lake congregation. Comments they have heard include, Wolf Lake has been in a wrong spirit or has been a black sheep for 30 years. Wolf Lake is going to secede from the LLC.

statements that Wolf Lake ministers are no longer used in the speaker rotation, questions like, why is Wolf Lake fighting the LLC? From the LLC perspective, Wolf Lake is just another one of our congregations in the North American Zion. We have desired and still desire to work together to put any baggage of the past behind us.

Then, on this item of LLC being heavy-handed, some Wolf Lake brothers expressed that LLC brothers are law-minded or heavy-handed. Mention was made that this sentiment is in other congregations as well. One brother humbly cared for his bad feelings towards LLC.

One Wolf Lake brother brought out that perhaps we are getting to the root of the problem now when we consider the heavy-handedness of the LLC. Examples of this heavy-handedness, law-mindedness include

The LLC set the stage or orchestrated the discussion at the Ministers and Wives Camp in October of 2015 and at the Minister's Teleconference in November of 2015. I put 16 here, but it's 15. The LLC at those discussions tried a full discussion on childbearing and abstinence and on this matter of unconditional forgiveness.

conditional repentance that discussion then Jim already mentioned this instruction or this encouragement from LLC to pick familiar texts that summer services was referred to as a dangerous practice then I want to say to you my dear brothers with whom

I serve and all of us serving LLCs serve. If you have questions about the actions or decisions of the LLC, we certainly want to hear them, whether privately or here openly. There's nothing that we can't talk about and we can't be free to talk about. And we want to talk with one another, listen to one another with humility of heart.

Excuse my struggles here. We are faulty servants. We make mistakes. We need the support and care and instruction from the congregation, the congregation of God, you dear brothers. Feel free to raise your questions or concerns also here at this meeting.

Now, we've asked Jim Jurmu to lead this part of the discussion.

So with those introductory comments, the floor is open for speaking turns up. Feel free to raise your hand a little aggressively if you don't think I've noticed you so that at 11.25 we all are trying to get the last word in and there's still 10 people on the list. So thank you, Scott. The sign is in the back.

Feel free to raise your hand while another is speaking. I'll get you on a list. I was thinking last night about the question.

I just thought that it came to my mind that I can borrow a Bible how it's paraphrased. I read a Bible prior to a discussion of

I believe it was a reconciliation meeting in the 4th, the 4th of the 30th, I don't recall. But the message that he relayed prior to that meeting is that we would all remember that Jesus is the presence of God.

listen to our dispatch and that our speech would glorify his name and so I would would want to say to all of us that it would be good to keep that in mind in our speech

Walt is next up front here.

These are difficult. It's difficult to think about these things, but I would have to say the presentations that I've heard and the view of the different meetings have been

I agree with my spirit. I don't .

But I think for, maybe for many of us, we're so close to the details, but we trust that it will be important to have the various others marginally working in spirit about that.

But it is a great time. I even would see questions about this way of being repeated in my children's country.

cities that are parts of Minnesota and it is a kind of frightening thing that I think that that should cause people to stop and realize that this is a very serious matter and we need to ask for the guidance of this Bureau and not put forth

One opinion that God says don't mean anything but that we have to humanly keep the spirit on the pieces. It's so important for the work that they keep in some cases is so important.

But I'm a little frightened because, like I say, my own flesh and blood is pierced with these questions. Those of us that have lived through that person are really concerned that there's a wrong spirit in the preventive care. I pray to God

I guess that you will, but I have to say that I feel that you can see here is the brother of the person that makes aware of the situation.

We won't go out of turn in the future, but I am going to let Ron know because he's got that mic and he won't give it up. But he had his hand and his name's on the list, so I'm going to... No, that's good. We want it also. I agree with the words that Walt has expressed here. The thought that I had in the recent minute that I took this point is that

What we have heard last night and what we have heard this morning were from representatives of the LLC and I fully agree with what Walt said that we would trust these brothers but

I think that if there is any kind of other thought here, especially regarding this high-handedness, or this sort of thing that has been requested...

out here if there's no kind of feelings that even in the presentations of the LSU with holding things that they need to be brought out so that we can understand what is the opposition if there is opposition it needs to be opened openly about how we're going to do this

This is the list as I have it. Ray, Marcus next, on the right side here, Ron, and then Marcus, then Dave Edwards, then Wayne Caglio, Neil Orney, Don, and then Dave maybe. So if you can kind of pass it to the next person if possible, and the rest of you raise your hand and I'll put your name as I see it.

and your brothers. It's good to be with you here.

I mentioned to somebody last night that this feels like a very secure place, and we were comforted last evening in hearing that we're encouraged to remember that the Holy Spirit is secure with us, and we can be entrusted with that.

My thoughts were similar to what Ron expressed. And I'm thinking that these first couple of speeches, I think we would probably hear that same message from many brothers here today. And so I thought that in the interest of time, as the matters have evolved,

It's been introduced that, you know, there's LLC brothers who have been dealing with these issues and Wolf Lake board members and speakers. And I would suggest that maybe at a very outset, you could ask our dear brothers from Wolf Lake, Darwin, and Phil to speak up presently about

they are feeling these matters. We did have that April 8th meeting, and then, you know, to what we've heard already in the introduction, that how are they seeing these matters, and it seems like it would be good to get that kind of frame discussion right at the outset. If that seems inappropriate, please...

Yeah, thank you, Ray. I think that that certainly is, if either Darwin or Phil would wish to take a turn, we would do that. I think that the intent was that summary would be balanced, but it's... Thank you, Phil. Thank you.

as far as the question on the sermon as we all know that Darwin spoke the sermon and that the sermon was taken down and subsequently we've had

three discussions with LLC brothers on this topic. The first being, of course, here at Sony with Eric, Jim, and Andy. And then the second one we'll link. I think there's been, as far as the text itself,

I think the LLC brothers have explained that it is for the purpose of prayer and fasting and I think from a theological perspective we don't know when it could be that way I myself am

I don't have an understanding on that text as far as content, background, or history of it, but I have at the same time always felt that it does speak to this topic.

of absence between the husband and the wife and I'm not sure what the differences between the listeners are I have asked the question I think in every meeting that

I find it interesting that some call the sermon to be uplifting and of faith and a refreshing sermon, like as we mentioned. And then, way on the opposite end of the spectrum, others have heard it as a sermon of reason and are troubled by it.

I looked at summer services and I heard the sermon starting quote on the same text in our connotation I don't know if you've heard it before I did hear that one but from those that have listened to both it was a similar sermon

My understanding on the text is that it deals with issues between the husband and the wife and that it deals specifically to this sexual relations between the couple and

I'm not 100% sure that is it that prayer and fasting or or it seems like at least the way I look at that text that it's sort of the thought behind Paul's content there that would apply to this situation

and not specifically prepared for that I'm not saying it doesn't apply to that but maybe I think John Wolquist has given that explanation in a more thorough manner but I believe in my heart that it does at least

in these types of situations I believe that the verses in that scripture portion speak to this and in doing so I have felt that these kind of situations between a husband and wife is something that they would decide it would be something that

collectively we decide what situation it will be used for or even the duration of time. My personal thoughts are that if a husband and wife are struggling with a major issue, whatever it may be, and I have thought of it that for the most part, or probably in all instances,

It would be a medical issue of one sort or another with either part. But nevertheless, I feel that in good conscience and prayer that God's couple could come to a conclusion

prayerfully and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and in context of good times. Use this for a time in their struggle. That's the way I have understood this task. I don't know what else to say.

no i'm not done anyways in the subsequent discussions i have felt that you know as part of the last meeting i thought he put it very well that we have discussed this and there might be some

minor differences as far as questions on time or things like that. As a whole I felt that

that this topic is one that like I thought Keith at the end of the last meeting in August said this way that let's allow this topic to grow and we take it individually and not necessarily meet again on it but rather allow God to give us increase on this topic to us individually and I thought that was good because

I feel the topic of that situation is really a righteousness of life issue and each different case is different and the trust and hope would be that whoever would feel the need to use abstinence would do it in

the basis of it would be with the heart of a belief and in doing so it would in the way I look at it would sort of even give a understanding on the length of the time of it

that the way I read that portion that it says that less faith tempts you for your incontinency that if the enemy of souls would even begin to build a seed in your mind or the couple's mind that let's prolong this now for reasons of birth control that would be sin

And so, if it's received, or the thought of even abstinence is received with that kind of a heart, that it's for the purpose of preventing children, I think that it's clearly against Scripture and it is him.

Another thing I wanted to touch briefly on was John Blomquist's presentation, Lord Over Life and Death.

I think we discussed that at one of the meetings and if you the way I read that presentation and I wasn't trying to be critical in any way at all but just reading it I felt that if someone would maybe understand the background of the text or

is not familiar with the topic in a way that they would be, come to a conclusion that it's only for the purpose of prayer and fasting. I think most people would probably struggle to understand what does that mean that we would abstain for the purpose of prayer and fasting.

What would that mean to me individually, or my wife, or a young couple, or a older couple, doesn't matter. That's struggling with something. I felt...

has been maybe under-brothered to that whole place that it would have behooved all of us if John would have added maybe an extra line there which he admitted as demeaning the whole place it would have brought more clarity to that maybe another line would have been put in there that certainly in difficult medical situations and so on

that abstinence could be a choice that a believing couple could do in good conscience without falling into sin and of course you know I I really get troubled that there's even this thought out there that that there's some acceptance of birth control

but I guess that's the way I look at it currently is that

It seems to me like the subject is, and other brothers can add to it, but I felt very happy with the last meeting that we would agree that

to go forward and allow God to give you things that's needed. And I personally didn't think there was like real butting of heads on that topic. There was more maybe looking at it in context with that prayer in fact and maybe whatever the historical background is and so on. But I guess I feel comfortable

well first of all

I wanted to say first of all certainly

it's our whole that things have gone and and know the word we they've gone and he may be the word positive you know I certainly in no way

would want that to be the case and uh you know it's uh you know i guess it was sorrowful in that to hear about it and yet i i have wondered why in that that text came forth and uh i had actually

prior to the sermon gone out, that text hit them in my mind, and then I got out of the van, it was literally like 30 minutes before, and I kind of looked through, trying to find another text. And, you know, I couldn't. I thought, well, it must be God's will. And I was willing to just tap into it, accept it. You know, and not as, you know, I wanted to do it. So that was a, those are the thoughts in my heart on that.

uh in terms of he mentioned because of the board's involvement they will play

uh that that means when i had spoken to randy requested the board well when the whole thing they called the meeting and they said well you're a speaker here you know what is the concern and they would want they would want to know if something's broken directly and so forth

it'd be a good concern to have their own speaker and so I just passed on that the board had requested and that wasn't my request personally that the board would be but it was the congregation's board and so you know we met and built in and went through that and you know in terms of one you know there was a question of maybe perception it has come up that was there

do i support birth control and i and i i have not and as i build my thoughts and go exactly as phyllis there and so uh that's a that's a summary there um in terms of those

first was taken down and personally to me

maybe my skin is a little too thick at times and I even lack knowledge of sometimes someone's situation and I wasn't offended and I take it in stride and whatever it is I have no personal feelings so I speak from a personal level not from the place someone else I'm not speaking on behalf of someone else

And so some others that felt, as Keith has said, that it was being taken down. That is not a personal thought of mine. I don't know how to phrase it and not be taken wrong, but it's immaterial to me. I have the same hope of salvation.

his vessel of claims is meaningless to me and you know the personal victory through the blood of jesus is all i i hope for the most important and then finding through the last part of the race there was uh there was one

Bob had a question that came up at one of the last meetings and he said well was there some bitterness or something on behalf of some brothers

from a whole lake or something. And I spoke freely there and I re-examined my heart. I don't have anything. I just feel free. I speak on a personal level, not on the aspect of something else. But I haven't felt, personally,

or have knowledge that someone else is bitter. But on my own behalf, I don't feel it. And like I said, I feel free. So I did speak of that in Minneapolis. I don't feel a bitterness. And then,

kind of that one one thought that uh how did that last part go again we tried to respond there tonight the thoughts are a little elusive on what you on on behalf of maybe it's on behalf of feelings toward the llc i think it's just for me again i

I have no thoughts of bitterness or anything and so

I wish I had a little more time to put some thoughts better together, but at least that's what comes to mind when something else comes up and makes me more detailed. I'm not sure why it's gone the way they have, but

trust that God will lead us all home. Good things to trust in. Thank you, Darla. Marcus is next, followed by David.

It's nice to be here and listen to your thoughts. I was going to get into the tantrums of growing your vitality. Maybe that's your point. Feel free where your discussions or your thoughts are. Okay. So, yeah. Just to say that nothing goes back that...

and it's nothing good so I think that the nice thing about our discussion is it makes us take the Bible and read it and study it and learn it

I've been trying to learn that part of the Corinthians discussed with brothers and some sisters and read it in Finnish and English and Greek and German and Swedish and kind of. What does it say?

It was very easy for me to agree to what Keith was speaking, you know, kind of as a precursor for this discussion. And as far as the portion for the main themes, no matter how I seem to read it, to me it does not speak about scientific or political growth.

But this to me is about our fight against sin in our lack of self-control. And if you take a look and read the plan, I guess to put it simply, Paul's instruction there for us is to continue to have sexual relationships.

And continue to do it so that you can enjoy it. But so that the sin cannot tempt you. Because if you don't have it, you still have that burden inside of your flesh. There's a temptation of masturbation or other stuff.

and Paul doesn't specifically speak that way he speaks that Satan so that Satan can tempt us if we stay away from our spouse for too long it does not seem to me that there's any discussion on whether it's the children or not

That understanding is, I think, rings clear from the two Bibles, from the very, very command of God, the increase among the clouds, which Luther really thought that was even more about the love of God than much later. So, Luther understood it was very profound.

how God has given us the mountain power to go and change but on the aspect of fasting and prayer no matter how I look and try to look at it to me it seems to be that kind of almost like a participation in religious ceremony

Or as David, even as the very early Christian church, they continued for a while, observing those old testimonies, like, you know, Passover, and the feast of Adam and Eve, and to me it seems like

Some people just have these, but, you know, it's okay to stand and do that over the temple or look at the church or pray. And in that way, I have made a promise. I'm not mandating that you have to have sex every night, but...

so I think it's nice that in these kind of discussions our direction should be clear let's believe the book let's discuss what the Bible says in all of this well we know

knowledge, dependence but the spirit makes a lot and that spirit we heard today and also yesterday that you know when we get together we got our own killed thousand beings and we have the back of our head we get together in the midst of the congregation may it always continue to be so what do I know

I want to follow along with my dear brothers and sisters in this one true faith. And you know what? I don't understand everything. I don't understand everything. They have to accept themselves and have that kind of a confidence that that's their true living faith that they'll get what God gives them.

So I guess you guys let's discuss this in the love of Christ. But Jesus has one flaw. He also says that...

that his children are known that is the characteristic of Jesus' children that they will keep the love one with another and this kind of discussions can help guide us back and give us a new understanding of love so this is a very important point

Thank you. Dave is next here, halfway up. Then Wayne would be next, followed by Neil.

As often is the case, I have several thoughts, but I've forgotten them as the other brothers have spoken. But I do want to echo what has been said, that it is good to be here. I'm curious to know what the other brothers have expressed, and also last night's presentation.

When I hear this thought of the LLC brothers are long-minded or heavy-handed, I feel that because my spirit was amen to what those brothers have expressed, that there's also an attack on me because I have the same feeling. I think of what Paul writes in Corinthians.

And then when one of us suffers, we all suffer. When one is honored, we all have that same feeling. So, though I don't deal with the same situations that you do with your LLC brothers that are on the board, as are many

just uh i don't have to deal with the same situations but i want you to know that we remember i don't feel that there's a law that's being expressed also

Regarding this one thing that was asked in press to give a presentation on this text, and I don't want to necessarily get into the meat of everything, but basically the thoughts that came out echo what has been said.

[family medical details omitted]

But I think each one of us, as fathers that have had children, at some point during or shortly thereafter, we have all, and I want to make both statements, we have all abstained. Because the doctors tell us six weeks after the birth of a baby, you cannot have anything regarding sexual intercourse.

So in that case, we have abstained. And I can only relate. My experience has been is that because I know when Paul speaks of this is good for a man not to touch a woman, obviously Paul being a single man, I know as a man, now I think it's hard sometimes to abstain because that's what my flesh wants.

But during that time, six weeks after the birth of the child, I think God has protected me during that time period to not want to put my wife and her life in jeopardy. [family medical details omitted]

But I also have reservations regarding this topic. And I'm feeling my own sinfulness. I want to do that. I want to do that.

And those personal experiences often help. Wait, what's next?

Just to start, there are many things I'd like to talk about, but I'll try to give a brief follow-up on the personal experiences. It seems to me clear by all so far that we abstain for the purpose of birth control, as we don't want to do that. And many of the speaks that have been spoken here have said that. They're all on the same page regarding that.

And one of the concerns that I understood, one feels that these concerns of the LLC feels that it's only for purposes of prayer and fasting that we abstain, because that's the words that we use in the scripture. And yet I very clearly heard Peter say that that is not the way the LLC feels at all. The Darius insists that abstinence is absolutely necessary because of the health of the woman, the wife, and the situation.

And I agree with that, both of you. Sometimes it is absolutely necessary. [personal medical details omitted]

And so there's no question at all. So just for a personal example, if you want an example of what that is.

so it's nice to be here

to get to hear things first-hand so we know how things are going. I do have a sermon removed from the event because of the way I expressed something. Not what I expressed, but the way I expressed it. It never ended. Some apparently, I didn't take a question. So it's important that we do that.

and explain why they did not put it up there. Yeah, first of all, I'm going to put that in there. Well, okay, now, what the heck did I do? And why should somebody be putting so closely at mine? But it became pretty clear to me, obviously, right away, that if I had attended even more in God's kingdom, then that's not good. And we think it would be positive if that was true even to people who...

Then that's not good. Take it down. It doesn't bother me one little bit. I think you get the right sense.

and then one final little comment to wrap it up if you look at our organization structure the LLC is not at the top of their humanity and control of what they do in life they're in third position as a matter of fact

The congregation is up there, and then the congregation is here, and the board is down there, and that's where we go to them. And it seems to me that the board is going to be very careful over and over again with their service of the congregation. And I'm happy about that.

At the same time, somebody has to make practical decisions about things and make determinations about things. And that's why we make boards. And I'm a very happy person with the function of the RLC board. They are a service. And we need them. And it's good that we pray for them and support them in their efforts. Somebody has to do that work.

And unfortunately, because they are billionaires, they're observable by all. How many thousand individuals, all who have their own ideas, if they make even the tiniest mistake, it's noticeable by so many.

Thank you. Leo is next, followed by Don.

Others have expressed their understanding of the fifth verse, but we don't have much time on it. But when I read it, it seems to say that we do it for the sake of their passion and the purpose.

And I don't say that there's not other places where it talks about Africa, but in this case, it doesn't in this case for any other reason. Also, I would like to say that I'm sharing this spirit of faith and feel that

There are some that were happy with the sermon, I don't know if that's how it works. And then there were some that were way on the other side of the textbook. I've heard people speak to that sermon

And what I've heard is that they believe most of the sermon was correct and appropriate, according to God's Word. But there was concern on that, especially that example of a possible time that a couple might be praying.

and that it could give the understanding that there are circumstances like that that are acceptable. I don't know the understanding of others here, but for a short time that appears to be a birth control to me.

And I don't mean to say that that was the intent of the speaker, but that's kind of what the reason for obtaining does seem like it is for people.

And there was a third point, a smaller lake. Thank you, Neil. As the lake is coming up to dawn, I'm going to mention the names that are on the list.

And you can always take your name off when your speaking term comes, but it's hard to get your name included. So if I missed your name, I apologize and try again.

we've heard many comments here this morning from the time I first raised my hand that took me a while to get given to notice my hand over here in the corner many many thoughts have come through my mind that we have heard all these speeches here this morning but first of all I would like to say that

Being one of the older ones here, I am very happy to be here. And it is such a joy to see so many of you here, young people here present.

I think these kinds of occasions are especially important in our time that we are currently living. As we were reminded even last evening by a brother in front of us, the devil uses every opportunity and every method possible to divide

God's children far away from that beloved people. And it is good that we can discuss these matters openly, freely and openly.

That is, John has promised that he'd make wins before he's out of town. He would probably because of the attacks that have been made against the LLC brothers or the hippie handlers and so on.

I want to assure you, even the yellow brothers, that these are attacks that come from the enemy of the soul. They are not the attacks my children are.

Having myself served on the LLC board, I know that the peace can happen. And after the heresy especially, as we heard briefly last evening, there were many, many heresy meetings in which I also participated.

And I would say that you're being coordinated. We are all human. You are human, I am human, if we felt God was human. And we all have that possible here, out there, in the past. You're being coordinated. You mentioned that most of the brothers have already sought their glory.

and they have many good testimonies of their case. And sometimes we hear these things happening over and over again. It doesn't hurt to talk about them, but I think if we start catching them over and over again, we can dry up on those matters.

Recently, I had a discussion with a brother who mentioned this fact that he loved me all because he tried to be kind to me and all my things. And I reminded him that it all means an abortion.

Proverbs, Corinthians, the 12th chapter, starting with the 28th verse, I remind you to follow me.

the brothers that are serving on the llc board are set there by god the apostle paul writes in this way and god has set songs in the church first apostles secondaries prophets churches teachers after them miracles

then gifts of healing, health, government, service, commerce, all are possible. Are all possible, are all possible, are all teachers, are all workers of miracles. Have all the gifts, have all the gifts of healing to all the people that with come,

We see from those words that not everybody has all the gifts. The gifts are interspersed in the congregation.

I don't have the gifts, and all the gifts here will have all the gifts, but they aren't the gifts for us. So, try to assure him that these are brothers that have been set there by the congregation. And if they're not there, then we need to be careful that we do not begin to attack them.

And I reminded him about the experience that I personally had in Detroit and Michigan before this last terrorist. Apparently, there were brothers that saw the problems coming down the fight for the peace. And they began to fight against that with the honor of the flesh. They were a glimpse ahead of God's time. And what happened? They dried up.

Many of them, and most of them, have seen the face, the intent of those things, but just as they saw the face, they went ahead and saw the child. So we need to remember this, that we do not begin to go into the arms of the dead.

When I first heard about Darwin's determinants, and I also felt that they spoke correctly, I perhaps noticed that one mark that has been mentioned, and I considered it to be a matter of the work that we all have. But after...

Having some discussions just recently with some of our members, I realized that this was the tip of the iceberg, that this brought out many, many other matters that we heard even in the presentations last evening.

about the poor humanist matter and so on. And I think it is good that we are able to discuss those things here today and get clarity. Thank you so much. Thank you, John, for something that I already said, that we're all on the same page. I felt very comfortable with

and then was happy to hear that they personally had no hang-ups upon the condition. But I'm not sure that these hang-ups are not present elsewhere in the site, and I think that they have been discussed in the station without me

are on the same page. We are able to go back to our congregations and try to help some of the wrong rumors and wrong understandings. So those are my thoughts. I'd like to thank you. Thank you. Do you have any of this next over here in the middle?

Paul Javier will be next. Listening to all these speeches about text, I must say that I fear the length of that.

Even what Heath spoke, even what Jeff spoke last evening, my spirit united with it. Then when I, on that PowerPoint last night, or I guess that slide was the film last night,

I saw those points that were brought up there about LLC being law-minded and that there was other topics with regards to LLC. And it brought back memories, even myself,

I had it a number of years ago, but I remember that spirit was there for a number of years. And it goes to that, where even Jesus speaks, if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out. It's so easy to sit there and look at the faults of others, and you forget to look at yourself.

And if we think of, when we talk that the LLC is law-minded, we can ask ourselves, who is the LLC? It's us. We are the LLC. They are a reflection of what we are. They have the same spirit. And here, God's kingdom are all the gifts.

LLC and God's kingdom, or I should say God's kingdom, that's not there. And when we begin to point fingers, it's perhaps time to pray. And I remember I've always had many, many, many discussions. And it just...

I remember speaking many times of Jesus' quote. I don't remember exactly where it was, but there's a nod somewhere where he speaks. When you plow a field, you look ahead so that the furrows are straight. That's how it should be. We forgive and we forget.

We understand that we're all faulty and we make mistakes. But how does it up-fill when we start to look back and find those faults? Let's put matters away and look ahead. There's so much goodness in God. Thank you. Paul, that's next. Followed by Nicole.

also just share with those thoughts. It's been so good to be here and hear all of the discussions. It's been good for me to hear the common understanding, mutual understanding on the matter of birth control, the understanding that God is the giver of life and decisions on those kinds of things are His.

And one of the reasons I think that we're discussing this here now, for sure one of the aspects is the specific discussions that have happened between the Wolk Lake brothers and the LLC brothers, but then in a broader sense in our time.

We're sure the enemy wants to bring questions. If there's one area, I'm sure there's attacks in any way he can, but one area broadly that he wants to bring questions and different understanding is in this area of having children and use of birth control. It's a broader discussion that's happening and that

And then also there probably is a knowledge that there are those, there are some, I don't know who or how many or whatever, but there are some that are with the believers that have a different understanding. And for that reason it feels so important.

Good and comforting that we can discuss together, be instructed by the Holy Spirit, and can bring greetings from camp to our home congregation. Talking about the matter of abstinence in this specific text, you know, I think the

We'll get back around to those things, but I agree with the explanations that have been given of the text and how it speaks to prayer and fasting, but I also appreciated the other examples of situations where couples have abstained. And I thought in a simple way, when we understand that we're created by God,

And as we visit with young couples, speak about marriage, we speak about how God establishes marriage, and that's based on scriptures.

Because of that, sexual relations also are something that's given by God, and God guides in those things. And the difficulty in that, talking about abstinence even, is what are those situations and such. We get into situations where it's a matter of faith, I think, and then we're trying to figure those out.

It's a matter of faith. Do we accept children from God as His gifts to us? We try to get into that area of our human thoughts, and that's the difficulty that we have. But being that God has made us as couples, He's given the sexual relations for His purposes, then the

In a simple way, I thought that in the majority of cases, they like the examples that the brothers have brought out, it just happens naturally where most, maybe in some cases with medical issues, there's a discussion that happens between couples and those are

difficult times and there's much prayer that's needed, but in most cases it just, it's the abstaining happens naturally, there's no discussion ever needed. Another example is, you know what, we've had a concern about one of our doctors that many times in the evening we'll just be together and

Talking about that and branding you would never think about Having sex at that time, but it's so that says we don't stay, but it's not we haven't had any discussion about it, but it's just been What's happened after that? I think most cases that being that his front is the whole? marriage established by God that he shows us that's what I said I've been asked that the You know you can't get into

And from a discussion that's been going on for a long time, it's sometimes been referred to, or that discussion already then, and you have to consider those difficult situations carefully, kind of a case-by-case basis, and you do, because some might say that it's vague or it's not clear enough, but if you try to get more clear, then you start with the reason going into an area that belongs to

belongs to God. God reveals things that are of Him to us through His Spirit. Just as one more comment, I think it's so important in considering this that we also continue to discuss in congregations and

With couples that are getting married about this topic, accepting children, that God would bless all of us in such a way that there would be a common understanding between the husband and the wife even around them.

what the sexual relations part of a marriage that we understand that it's something that's given by God for his purpose also wouldn't be on the husband's side especially at this time when there's such an attack against

for having children and that many times in our family experiences personally how many times the wife that experiences more maybe the burden that goes a lot with that the guy can do that seems like the mother especially but how important it is in this time especially that the wife has the the mother has the support of the of the husband and the husband also looks at the

or treats the whole manner of sexual relations and that with the right kind of humbleness and sensitivity. Lardy, or I'm sorry, Mikko, then Lardy, and then Randy. That's a very good one. I'd like to go back home.

But as being said, and like what Dave also shared his experience, I would like to share my story. First of all, I would like to encourage you to rather all see how you are in a place of

watching the day of the convocation but my personal feeling has been that you guys are humble dirt recently I was able to be in a state meeting with Jim and

It was a very warm night meeting. And after Kim left that meeting, they all felt in that room that it was, first of all, nice to hear Brother L.C.

And we were always certain that we would stay out and stay there. [family medical details omitted]

And my prayer has been that God is to us by this and He instructs us

and with this kind of thoughts often the words of or the book of Job come to my mind with my mind having a struggle temptation in my life when

God's focus goes Where was Thou when I laid the foundation of the earth? For who shuts up the sea with doors when it rains forth?

and so forth. I have felt this way that I am so small. I don't have understanding. The only thing I can do is trust Archdiocesan Father.

Only thing I can do is pray, pray. And He will give us an example of how. With my many doubts, thoughts, I ask, I can realize.

I ask that your brother pray that I walk my life, my death. Michael, you can believe even that, that the prayers already, that's over to Marty, the prayers already of God the Heavenly Father before you've asked that there are those that have had experiences similar to yours and ask God to help you in your way.

I think many of the previous speakers have already covered many of my comments. I really appreciate the presentation. Thank you.

I certainly don't begin to think I get any light on what Paul wrote. I think the perspective that we need to remember when we speak to

Couples develop through various relations. Stephanie kind of stepped back to look at the bigger picture. And how even Paul wrote, for this childish little man to be his father and mother,

and shall be joined unto his wife, and they too shall be one flesh. I'm quoted there from Genesis. So he went on to say, this is a great history. And I think of my own life, my own marriage, signs,

about those kind of medical issues that come. And also, remember, put a great mystery in it, put a great plot to it, but don't.

Even if it's on someone like me, on someone who loves someone like me. You know, our relations can be a great blessing from Him. They're not meant to be a burden upon a couple, but we can freely accept them.

And in a natural sense, we don't have to burden ourselves about some of these things. Remember the blessing we have. We've got to be able to love and care for each other.

Randy Hoplow. Following Randy Hoplow, we have Russ Raichel and Kurt Seidenson. Do you have another experience? Good to be here. Good.

I'm going to, as God wills, speak my psalm, that which was already touched on as far as Darwin's sermon at summer services. I heard the sermon of Sidney. To me, it began as a sermon of faith.

which turned into a Sermon on the Reason. I was troubled by it. I was happy when it was not archived. We all know that in the Darwin's Second Sermon, there is control of sin.

Darwin even said in his sermon that the Apostle Paul did not give examples for a reason. But then, the reason, some reasons came out where it appeared like it would be okay. They could be weak words.

But I thought that if someone is struggling in these temptations, there was great room for justification in these matters, listening to the sermon. If you were one struggling with this temptation.

Dear brothers, and I speak for myself, when we go to the pulpit, we go with that prayer that God would give words, and that these words would unite, that they would call, they would gather, and we go to the pulpit with great humility,

And I ask you, dear brothers, and I know the care we have in God's kingdom. It is great care, great love. But if there ever is a time when I have spoken and my word would have even slightly caused division, I ask you to care for me.

It's not our work, but it's God's work. We are so small in God's kingdom. I speak what is on my heart.

Can I ask you, dear brothers and sisters, to forgive me for all my sins? In regard to you, dear LLC brothers, I have never felt that you are heavy-handed or almighty, but we carry you in love and prayer.

that God would continue to lead and guide and bless us, as he has so done so preciously. May we have this prayer that God would continue to lead and guide and care for us, and he will. He has promised to do so. Thank you, Randy. Russ is next. And I have Kurt Simonson and I have Kurt Kopoff.

I'd like to comment on this question of reconciling the revelation of the Spirit, the way I would describe it. And I expressed this when it was in Minneapolis, 14th of September.

When this person came up there, we were discussing it, and some fellow brothers said, I didn't say anything wrong with that sermon. And that's fine. I mean, each of us recognizes from our own place, our own gifts, and what we react to, the way the Spirit moves in us. But what is so important in this issue

And it appears to me that it is still a lesson in recognition of what the Spirit says in the congregation. Congregation is not a peace and rest with the issue or a sermon. It is, as Brother Wayne mentioned, that if even one is offended, two are offended, please take it down. I don't want that to be there.

And that kind of humility, humbleness, we need before the construction of the Holy Spirit in the Constitution, which is the entirety of design for here in America and everywhere in the world.

I would like to express it the way my son, [unintelligible], he said, living in Espoo, Finland, listening to a lot of lying. He said, he told me that later on we talked, he said right away to his wife that, well, that was a different sermon, but I think that brother is going to receive a lot of glory and help.

that you can well express what the response of the congregation is. The congregation of God is entire. And that, I think, is what is asked of us in these situations, that we listen to the voice of the Spirit in the congregation and humble ourselves to accept that voice. Amen.

Not to say I still haven't heard that. Some brothers. Curse me.

This topic is close to many of us, I would guess, and not all of us. But many of you know that we have our own share of trials. And among, you know, the trials that [family medical details omitted]

How can we do it with all the blessings that come?

Give them to a mirror. These children, these are blessings. She told me many times that when you meet with those couples who have, you can marry them. Encourage them to just accept the blessings from God. These children are blessings. Accept them. Embrace them. Don't worry so much about the difficulties that come along with them, but look at the blessings.

And so sometimes I thought that we need to express our thoughts and we have those trials that we've heard.

about mothers and the difficulties that come along with them, the health issues, that when we respect our spouse, that we just realize that there's times that we don't keep up intimate. And God blesses both times in our life and in our marriage too, but...

[family medical details omitted]

When I was planning to come here, my wife and I talked about some of the issues that we've heard and we've struggled there. And I struggled personally because it seemed like some of the tentacles of these things have reached further and people have asked and I haven't known what to say. It was a little bit, maybe even depressed. She said, just go there, sit in the court, listen.

I didn't come here with anything to say, but just wanted to listen. It's just so nice to be here, man. I heard my brother speak, and just, I said, amen. That's all I do believe, and that's all I want to continue to believe. But can I even believe my latest tell? Oh, sister, you're good.

Greg, and then Carrie, and then Laudie, then Havno, and I'm not going to read the rest of the list for a while. I didn't want to say anything here. Now I'm struggling with so many different thoughts. Where to start?

In some ways, I know for many of you, these discussions went back to the sermon, and other matters that I brought up have weighed very heavy. And I guess at times they've weighed on me, but through all of this, I have to say that overall, my heart has the same joy that I have.

The reason is because it has opened the doors for so many precious discussions of the most important matter of the day. We can debate all day long, you know, this or that, or why this sermon, and so on and so forth. But God has a reason.

This has come up for a reason, and God has his way in this situation here. Far beyond our ways of understanding, we've got this. My heart is rejoicing. When I started thinking about these matters that we're going to have to deal with,

forgiveness, and all of these issues, who deeply can become confused. What does the Word of God say? That anything that is not of faith is sin. We can sin when we try to make the right decision for the wrong reason, but it's not of faith.

But if we make a decision that is of faith, then it's great. And who of us can look at another person's heart and say, it's a personal matter of faith. It's a personal matter of faith.

That is why we want to confess that the Holy Spirit does his work in the congregation and in the hearts of the couples and those that hear the message of faith will cling to the message of faith and not examine themselves and beat themselves to death but will focus

Our gaze needs to focus on the middle cross going up. The keys have done the work. And when our heart is filled with that joy and thankfulness that my sins are forgiven, I want to make it that story of heaven. God gives us grace. It is a decision of faith.

And sometimes I have, to be honest, dear brothers, I have wondered through these chapters, where sometimes the law can come in. And I don't say this to any of you brothers or any particular brother, but where the law can come in, not in the same way. But the law can come in this way, though.

There's something I can do for my salvation. Whatever it might be. We cannot work in any way for our salvation. The work that we've done is to live and focus on the present.

And I thought of these words here as I sat in your mind, Paul's writings to the Romans. I'll read these first several verses from the 10th chapter of Romans. That rather than my heart's desire to pray to God for Israel, is that they must be saved. For I bear the record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. For Moses described the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live forever. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this life,

Say not in thy heart, who shall ascend into heaven, that is, to bring Christ down from above, or who shall descend into the deep, that is, to bring Christ again out from the dead. But what sayeth, the word is nigh, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that is, the word of faith.

that thou shalt confess with thy mouth the word of Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath risen from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart believeth, man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is given to him. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

If I am wrong in my understanding of these matters, dear brothers and sisters, I want to say this as well, but I simply see this, that when we focus on Him, and our faith is on Him, righteousness of faith receives all matters of righteousness of life. God will guide us in the right path.

Can I hear the gospel? Can I hear it?

So I want to express a concern, I guess I would say, that I heard in dear brother Darwin's speech. It's the same concern that I expressed to dear Darwin as we addressed it this morning.

And, uh, Darwin, I've known you for years. These values, knowing they count, uh, in confirmation together. Those years went by as we, we went off together. The last few years, we've taken it as a visit. And,

And you spoke about your text in your speech. You also have a very direct way of speaking, and I always appreciated that. So I will also be a little bit direct now. But first, I love you, Darren. We love you. We care. Well, you're on time as well.

And I don't want to focus on words, but I maybe have to focus on words here. You spoke about the serpent coming down, being taken down in that decision.

And you said, maybe in these ways, not exactly, but it doesn't matter to me. It's no big deal. And I don't, we used a similar word at breakfast, and I mentioned there that for me it would seem like a big deal.

that this sermon if someone came to me and then this came out in the discussion and I want to repeat again that if someone was to tell me that my sermon should be taken down that there was some thought it seems to me again without experience that I would say yes please take it down

And then as others have spoken here, when we sit beside they said, and Russell reemphasized that, that it will go from end one to end the other. Others have spoken, Mikko and others, I feel so small before this question. If someone was struggling, why would I want to add extra trouble to them?

Others have said, if my words cause division, I would want to do that one. Others have said that we would want to receive instructions. So all this has, to my ears and to my spirit,

the difference than what I've heard. And again, maybe I shouldn't focus on words, but what I've heard, and maybe others would want to comment on this, but that's not my question. Next we have Lauri, followed by Hundo, and then Randy here.

a couple of thoughts that have gone through my mind. First of all, last evening during Jim's presentation, he spoke a lot. And I was sitting here marveling.

That's what God finds precious. He finds His love for us. And that's thinking also that we who have been called to work in vineyard, we have been asked to serve the congregation, just as Jesus spoke to Peter. He said, eat my lamb, eat my sheep.

when we ask to do them. And so we are asked to eat the precious blood of God. And also we are part of that precious blood of God, hearing and learning of the way to salvation.

And in this, from that context, I also was one of those who, when I heard on the internet a sermon from Summer Services, I was left confused. And I had others in there that also asked, well, what did you think?

And I was of two minds. With one part of my mind, I said, and I answered in this way, too, that it's so good that we can speak to people. But at the same time, I had to say that there was something, and I didn't know what to put my finger on, but something public about it.

And as time has gone by, and we see and hear of them, there's a confusion of what was meant. Were they deep words? And we all know that there are deep words. And in that context, can I go back to this question of the archive of the parents?

And over the years, my thought has been this, that

If it were to be a sermon of mine, that would cause confusion. I don't want to take it on. I don't want to accuse anybody. I don't want to leave even weak words, if they are, or if I say something that is wrong. But all it means is to correct me and take it. Don't leave it all there to accuse others.

And I'm proud of these words of 1 Corinthians, where it says, Let the prophet speak two or three and let the other tell it. If any thing be revealed to another that said it five, let the first hold his peace.

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to prophets, where God is not the author of confusion, but truth.

So, when we teach of the way that we travel as a child of God, if we find that we are causing confusion, we have to stop and ask, where are we? Where are we? Where are we?

And that confusion can come from and those members might be . You don't always understand everything in here. But yet, it is a problem that there have been questions.

I've heard questions and comments. That was probably just to mention some of those

thoughts that, well, where is perhaps the world's great congregation? I have close trouble with me, especially when I myself haven't been involved in any specific meetings. I don't know all those details. And I have a lot of distrust that those meetings have been held according to God's word, and that things will be revealed as they need to be revealed.

And I am personally, I also, I would also echo what some of the other brothers have stated, that in my own personal dealings with y'all's deep brothers, I have thought them to acknowledge that they don't know everything. It's like, how do you know everything? They don't get anything yet.

We've been asked to serve, and we've been asked to serve, and there's times when we can say things that also are difficult.

leave, especially if there are matters that haven't been open, in an open discussion, that could perhaps lead to, and I'm done with rumors going around of what's been said, what's been done, what the situation is, and I appreciate this opportunity to openly talk about some of these things because it's,

There is, like I told some, I feel like a hermit with my own job. I find myself burying my offices. But yet, I'm still a hermit. It's a big wonder how much more questions there are. I'm worried.

Thank you. Just a couple of matters of detail here. There is time still before lunch. Lunch isn't ready, so we'll continue our discussion. And yet we can also continue this discussion after lunch in our next session, so we're going to keep the list as we have it, and we won't introduce a new topic until those speaking terms have been satisfied. And so if you'd still like your name on the list while Hang Nu is...

getting ready to, or taking his turn, feel free to put your hands up. But here's the list as I have it. Randy Erla, Rick Nebla, Walt Lampe, John Bluequist, Darwin Lake, Bill Huttok, and Gary Warwick. I have to say, like the other brothers that

It has been very good to be here. We see that God has brought us together here so we can discuss matters and learn and above all that God will guide us, each one of us, to lead this way. I hope you

thing in my mind since yesterday already. If I should relate of this, but I will do it with that prayer. I will simply at the beginning here relate my own song. A song of funny and

how they and their souls can operate. When I was a young board member in the early 80s, this kind of thought began.

And it came to my ears, and was spoken to me directly, how the speaker, the two speaker brothers in the congregation, how their sermons weren't edified anymore. Some parts of it were being, their sermons were being nitpicked apart.

And so forth. I led my ear to that and I began to examine those servants with critical ears. And my mind was over. And I fell into that wrong sphere.

I have marveled at afterwards how I totally began to do the work of the enemy, to break up and destruct the unity in the congregation.

Then there was a meeting called where Dalasi brothers, and they might have been able to make paper, were there in that meeting. And I was told, with the help of the word of God, very directly told them how I was in Iraq. I did not understand it at that point.

but God through his grace through me had me humbled down so that I thought that if the brothers said so it must be so and I was able to receive the grace of repentance there

And later, when God revealed that unto me, I truly marveled how quickly the enemy can lead one into perdition of all blinds, doing his work, disrupting and doing destruction, transcommunication.

The brother already mentioned here that I have that marked down on the page. Fortunately. For God is not the author of the future. It will be. Anything

That we do, we want to be doing that to edify the congregation that Paul Rader wrote in that same chapter in verse 26. And I always intend rather that when we come together, every one of you has a song, has a doctrine, has a song, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edify. That we would not be doing anything

that causes effusion in God's congregation. And Apostle Paul also spoke in the previous chapter about the law. And so I speak with tons of men and of angels, and I have not charity. I have become a sounding-grass, or an inquisitive civil.

I think we always have to reflect that I'm loving the brothers that I'm working with. Do I have that love of God? If there is that realization that I'm not in fact loving the brothers with that love of God,

That thought should be turned to me. What is the condition of my heart? Have I lost that love? And how does that love get lost? We know that it is through falling into it.

The brothers are there to help each other, one another. And I would also think, as the brothers have already said, and I join with them wholeheartedly, that if there was any servant of mine that

with God's intuition, not a lot, but his dear brothers would come and speak to me as soon as possible. So I don't want to be fed up with anything that causes confusion in God's speaking. And if there was a servant of mine

on the internet there should be community taken down so that it would not cost any further distribution. For we are living the time when enemies would especially want to break the law now. And it always starts with me brothers. We have enjoyed a long period of time since the heresy

of the 70s, how we have been working in unity, not meeting. And we have been able to get into this world and have enjoyed those moments of working together, meetings that we've had together. We have rejoiced of the unity. But why does the enemy assault hate them?

He would love us to have us break that love between our dear brothers. So I would say at this moment that we've all done it in our own hearts and do I have that love that has prevailed between us in my own heart. Myself, I have felt

I have unity with you dear brothers in hell. I have rejoiced of the work that you have done. And I have never felt anything like this from your part. You have a... You have a duty that the congregation of God has put you in. And may God give you strength

For it is not easy to be there in that visible place. And then he would begin to strike, try to break, let go. There is a rumbling that we hear. Now, today we want to examine you and

and try to break that love any possible way we can. In the conclusion, I want to say that your brother goes beside me there and I can relate to your difficulties. We've had many similar situations, leading into discouraging you then,

May God give you credit to endure in those times that we have to abstain from sexual activity because of physical things and prevent those weaknesses of the mind that's put a burden and

The brothers have already spoken on that. Seventh chapter portion. And all I say is amen to that understanding that I don't have money. I don't have any further understanding. I'm a little understanding on these matters. And I just want to convey this word. Do it with me. Ask of me.

You're right, brothers and sisters, see that I should not think about your humble estimate. At that point, I stopped. And then the other brothers would think. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I have many, many thoughts here for others. First.

I remember two brothers when I heard these comments about long-windedness and heavy-handedness, and knowing my own mind there, working in the office, serving the work of our central organization. What a lineup. It has been my part in creating this kind of atmosphere for so many years.

And I think about difficult life situations that we've all had.

Fetching this relationship of a husband and wife, accepting children and their absence. I simply wanted to believe that as God's children, with prayerful hearts, in the counsel of God's children, before God's word, and even with the advice of professionals, S.P.P.,

we go through those challenging times, trust me, hoping that in the end we've been able to make decisions that we've been able to keep faith and a grip on. And I can't go any farther than that. That's how I simply wanted to look at it. And so,

The part of abstinence that I struggled with and I wanted to really express this so that I can be more discreet, was after one of our meetings, the September meeting, I felt like we really were both not united in understanding, but that we'll play forward into others.

Following that meeting, we received a written communication in the office from Wolf Lake Chairman and this matter was written this way concerning abstinence.

that in a big picture sense it seems that all agree that abstinence is for more than just prayer and fasting and can be used in good conscience by believers for a variety of reasons for some length of time as needed by each individual situation. He went on to explain how that understanding for some comes from Scripture and others comes from nature and love.

But when I read that, I told my brothers that that wasn't my feeling. I can't say that that was my understanding. I left that discussion. Not that it's not true in one sense, but that I guess I can't say anything further than that I've been concerned that

about a broad view of abstinence that would go forward. This kind of thought, when you go into temporal reasons, that as long as a husband and wife agree in a time of trial that abstinence will help their situation, then it's okay to do it. Osborne gives permission for this.

And I feel that we can't give that kind of message without at least accompanying it with the message of faith, that we still would want to trust that God is the guide in all things.

And so I still ask, do we understand this in a way that

We heard already in our speeches this morning and this whole matter that they discussed so much and we too have wanted to read and all have written and spoken about these matters in the past that God's Word and Luther speak about this beautiful union of marriage, husband and wife given unto each other, becoming one.

and culminates for life and the whole and to be fruitful and multiply and the whole theme and message is husband and wife serving each other and coming together so it felt uncomfortable it felt strange that we are now spending so much time having so much discussion about when is it permissible that we get their part

with the whole message. It should be that we encourage husband and wife, man and woman, in that very union, to be together. And not try to identify minds when they can be apart. We have to take those times, again, as we've already discussed. And I haven't been offended by brothers

sisters who have spoken on the trials in their life when they haven't been able to be together. You know, I understand. But shouldn't this be, brothers and sisters, shouldn't this be our message? How can we speak to brothers and sisters, speak from the hope that God has given you to each other? And we burden in Darwin's sermon in one part, very preciously, how we don't want to deny our spouse

us from them or them from us, that's not either a sign of a healthy marriage.

But we don't want to start to go down this path of when is it acceptable to be apart. Let's take those as matters of faith, challenging situations when they come, but courage, faith, and when to be together, and courage to be together.

When this matter came forward last summer, summer service season, my dad said, I just struggled. What should we do? What's the right thing to do? And with the brothers in the office, the ASCO committee,

It wasn't an easy decision for us. We knew we needed to be ready to explain and answer thoughts and feelings. And of course, in those first few days, there wasn't much time for discussion. There wasn't any time yet for discussion with Garland and his brothers from Wolf Lake. So I didn't want to say thank you much, yet we received

emails and calls and even visits to the office. One in particular still remembers an email that came to me and said, who do you think you are to be interfering with God's word and censoring what we hear?

I was so taken aback and troubled by that because that wasn't our thought, wasn't our intention at all. It was in that way only this that there seems to be enough progress around this question, this sermon, that it would be better to not be in that public arena.

And we know that the believers are going to have to visit about this as we go forward. And I've appreciated each occasion when we have been able to soberly even yet. I just feel like we are in these times where believers are

are standing out more than ever before because of their children, because of their families. And it's even becoming in some ways a matter of persecution. And so isn't the enemy going to be tempted not to accept these villains?

And if we start to say that life is kind of hard right now, perhaps it's not a good thing to have a child. We're not denying those children. It's just not a good time. Isn't the enemy now working there to do that?

prevent children, but call it something else. And that's, I invite you to have a service with, to draw a few abstinence that's important. And I don't feel that these people are,

the brothers mostly intended that, but somehow it seems like it's gone that direction. This is about going in different circles, and for that reason, we as speakers have a special role to try to redirect the course of this kind of message.

this time and we will lunch is ready but I would like to speak just a few of my thoughts without speaking all of them but I've been also in these discussions and in the beginning of the questions of that sermon and what should we do and then the work of the LLC I felt that I've been there

As one of God's children, I was sent from heaven. The brothers who carried me and encouraged me. I've also been working there with those brothers that are sinners. And yet I'm not wishing to say that I am without a fault. I do wish to say that

I wanted to serve the believers with joy and freedom. And this, and it has especially tempted me during this time with the meetings that I worry about what is my own. But by yet endeavoring in faith, I've wanted to travel that narrow way which leads to heaven.

Do you mind taking a chance to respond to your psalm, please? I want to encourage each one of you. Brothers, also, that have felt tempted and burdened and doubtful, that even here at home, Lord, I understand each one of you can believe all of your sins are forgiven in Jesus' name. In Jesus' name, let all sins are forgiven. In Jesus' name.

In Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name, in Jesus' name

The situation certainly, you know, we serve with weak words and when they come out, they're not perfect and that's how God has made us only as vessels of clay.

Even there, when you made that comment, you didn't quite understand it, and I realized it's on my part, and I'm not a great community. I accept that. That's how God has made me. And in that comment, when I said I was not bothered, I meant that by pride.

was not offended, and I didn't rise up in my flesh when the sermon was taken down, and neither did I hold an offense against anything. And so that's why I said from that aspect, and it was imperfectly communicated, but they didn't feel bothered by it from that aspect of my flesh.

help something important onto the sermon. And I do remember good words that Yoko spoke here when I first started speaking. He said in terms of, in a sermon, if the sermon opens and God feels, and then the enemy comes and speaks to us that we've spoken well, we throw that message in the garden.

And then likewise, when we stumble through sermons and the enemy begins to nag at us on our shoulders, we also throw that message in the garden that we don't

in our flesh grow on one hand, or then we, how would I say there, become down when we're only vessels of clay. And so, I thought that was good, and I have believed that, that not only as a weak servant, and the words come as they do, an imperfect word. And I will say that

No one had personally contacted me ever with an offense. And I've listened and then I also heard Randy say that, I don't know the verbatim, but I do not want anybody to be offended and I do ask.

personally there and if anybody else has felt in any way that I would ask that you brothers forgive me and all freedom and love is restored. Let us continue our visit here as we return after lunch. So the plans right now are to come back on the 1st. We'll see how it's going. That's our plan.

Let's all stand and sing.

Amen. Amen.

already been asked for and then we would at that point go to the next topic and of course if your comments want to return there's no problem with that we'll just try to keep moving forward Keith promised that we are having a break today I don't believe it yet even though he's promised a couple of times but we'll just try to keep things progressing in that way so I've got on the list Rick Nevela Walt

John Bloomquist, Bill Huerta, Yaron B'Lorg, Ole, Petri, Steve Haria, and Andrew. Both of you. So after those turns, then we will go to the next. Tell you what, let's take Petri and Andrew at the same time so we don't have to go back and forth with that mic.

I was thinking to myself that this question that we've been talking about, specifically I was thinking about the Swervin and Starks Versus, that it's the fact of us being in different ways.

I have very rare conversations with, maybe even no real conversations with Darwin. I don't know personally. In discussions, I have spoken to other Wolfe brothers a little bit, but I don't know them that well.

But I would like to just say my personal experience and just explain to both of you brothers, so you know what the effect was, whether the servings that came

doctrinal errors or words that were just not said well or whatever the case is. Not even looking at it from that perspective. Because the reason why I've been thinking about this is that I've heard a few times that there are some who are concerned for the sermon, but others are not.

And I think what's kind of missing from this is in what ways they're concerned and what ways they're not. I've heard through other brothers, I've heard from people who have told me correctly, things like this.

One brother said that he had a conversation with a congregation member who asked directly, what's going on with this Wolf Lake situation? And in the middle of that conversation, he said he didn't know how to answer it, not knowing the issues. And this congregation member said, for this effect, that he's on Wolf Lake's side.

And I said, well, what do you mean, both sides? What kind of positions are we taking here? And then this person said that, well, he's kind of a little guy, kind of a big guy. Maybe he's at all. I don't know. There's that kind of effect.

I know it affected me personally. I was scheduled to serve two service after that. I don't take any personal offense at what Darwin said, but there's two things that I know affected me during that service.

One is that Darwin and Neil, I don't think they either looked at the package schedule or what, but they took all the time that was for that afternoon. And I sent a text to the service director, what am I supposed to do because the schedule's completely gone. There's no more time. They had to set up for communion.

And so there was that that was kind of bugging me. So in the middle of this, Darwin's servant, I was not offended, but I was embarrassed for him. I hung my head. And I was trying to think of what I was going to say.

I listened the whole sermon. I was there by the front. And what was going through my mind was, I don't want to say anything that feels like a rebuttal to that. That's not my point. I don't feel like I need to say anything to that, but it felt like something should be said, because I

I don't know if you understand the frame of mind that I was thinking about there. Afterwards, even, I know it affected this much because Wayne came to me afterwards and he says, because Wayne was translating me in the booth, and he came up to me and he says, he says, who was that that kept the sermon? He says, that wasn't Red. It just all just came like this.

flood as fast as I could. I never kept a sliver more. I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to be there that day. Okay.

I wonder if I could hear the gospel. So the attacks are there. Who are we to go forward from here? Because the congregation, I know they're feeling this way. They're aligning themselves. I know that...

I've had discussions with my friends. They've asked me to create some kind of evening visit and they talk about it.

I've had relatives who say that they live in Wolf Lake, and I don't know if you brothers know this even. I'm openly saying this so you know it, you Wolf Lake brothers. This is what's being said in Perfect Love and Freedom. They're worried. They told me that even at your meetings in Wolf Lake, they wondered what's going on at these meetings, and some of them told me that...

revival but we don't want to rehash all those things but there's some doctrinal differences and we're this close you don't need to worry about it but then some other stuff will come up and they'll say that well the differences are this that this is what Jehovah says and this is what we believe how do we go forward from here

It doesn't seem like it's a probable way to go forward from this meeting and saying that we talked about things and now we're kind of agreeing. Agree on what? I don't even really know what the question is yet. I've heard that there's concerns from both before I sat in that meeting in Minneapolis

It feels like sometimes when you hear these things talk about that if you believe one thing, it means that you're wrong. That's what the conservative brings up. Well, for the conservative, it seems like

I must be the one that they're concerned about. Because I believe the same way as the LLC brothers. What are we thinking wrong? What's the doctrinal error? Because if there's an error, I want to put that away. I don't want to carry that. I want to believe what God says in the Word. I don't believe what Job says. I don't believe what Darwin says. I believe what God in the Word says and what He reveals to His Spirit.

If we go down that pathway, dear brothers, this is dangerous. Don't go there. I hope God in His Spirit at these days can gather us together so we can even say that the Spirit has revealed us. This is what it is.

The matter is we're taking care of whatever they were, whatever they like. This isn't some kind of majority decision. I don't care if it ends up being that one brother here has the right understanding. All the rest of us are wrong as long as it's taken care of and put away. It's the way it is. It's not some democracy where we decide that it's...

75% believe this and 25% this way. So we're going to go with the 75%. We can block from God's kingdom. We have a king, Jesus Christ. And we follow him. We follow his word. There's nowhere else to go. Where else can we go?

We've had so many mindsets, big doubts and fears. It can't be simplified. I remember in the middle of those discussions in Cocado back in the 80s, I've told this before, it just seemed like a fist.

One man in the middle of these difficult discussions took the microphone and said that he's so confused, doesn't know the way forward. And then he said, I don't know if I did the right way 30 years ago. One dear brother, I remember him, but in death he reigned kindly.

simply took the mic and said, that dear brother, do you want to believe today? And he said, yes. Then quote me. Your sin is forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. And forget about all that in the past. It's not fruitful to try to determine hope anymore with believers who have died many years ago. How does that help our lives today? How does it help us to follow Jesus today?

Sure, we can talk about things that there's something to learn from, but there's no point trying to prove fault anymore. It won't help. Even if they did err so much that they're not in God's kingdom or die as non-believers, it doesn't matter. Their journey has ended. We can't change their result. We can learn to live today. Live with brothers, with faith, live with the gospel, put sins away when they attach, and to not follow men. Follow Jesus Christ.

along their way.

I have a question. What is the effect of the CERB mandate? The act will have only the effect of the CERB mandate.

The servant of God, he said, I personally listened to it. I personally was concerned with a particular part of it.

Of course, we know that the spirit is the spirit of the community. Yet, we have, as has been said, dissent, confusion, accusations, offense, epilepsy, and so forth. Yes.

Coming down into the congregation, members of any type, personally, I don't think it's all the words. I don't think it's all the words. I don't think it's all the words.

But, as some people might feel it's a sermon of concern, some people might think it's a good sermon. I think that this sermon is given to some people, but not to all people.

We cannot think of it. Everybody's going to agree or disagree. It's caused a lot of problems. It can be the Holy Spirit. I think there's a real issue here.

Dear brothers, I have thought not to say anything about this issue.

probably said more than enough in earlier discussions about it, it seems.

I thought that the introduction that Captain Rogers was developing and was mentioned, and because of that introduction and this whole issue, I felt a little bit like a center of the storm in some parts. It's not that easy.

Spent a lot of time going back, studying 1 Corinthians 7, examining my own understanding of it, how others have understood it, and so on. And like we've heard,

It sounds like we're close. But I think we all recognize, like the kids say, also we tell us in hand-to-face, and horses in hand-to-face, that the difference is, there is a difference, I think. It's real. Yeah. I think that it's not insignificant, either.

The issues that we've been talking about and we all realize are serious issues, serious questions. There are underlying issues perhaps that are more important, but the issues also are important. Maybe we have to discuss them.

to get through it all. The one thing I have thought of from a personal perspective in all of these issues, much like Rick said, feels not about me,

It's not about them. Dear brothers, who are my good friends, and whom it would be easy to not count the flesh king their side. The issue is the Gospel, the pure Gospel, without which we're lost.

can we have an obligation as servants of the word to defend and protect the gospel and you know like Paul writes to

Timothy says, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine, and continue with them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and thy children. We have serious responsibilities.

Now this many times brought to my mind Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms in a very open place. He stood before the Congress of his day and his Emperor and was full repentant.

teachings in this place. And he said something like this, unless I'm convinced by the scriptures for my clear reason, God help me. I can't. We all have to.

have also the courage of our convictions. We are what we are. We believe what we believe. And we want to see the answers to God's Word. And it's not always easy. Well,

Throughout the discussion of these issues, going back to last summer, from different perspectives and comments that come up, one thing that's troubled me is I worry where that point of thinking takes us. Is that everything happens because it's God's will.

God is the only will in the Holy Scriptures. There's a lot that God allows, but it's not according to His will. And I think we have to understand that. It's pretty easy to blame God for all of our sins and faults if everything happened because it was God's will.

So, from my perspective, a word of caution there. You need to understand that, I think. Bill mentioned my introduction and the comment I made when we discussed it.

You know, if I do it again, maybe I'll add another explanatory sentence or something. I actually had an opportunity to do that last fall. And after I thought about it, I decided I won't after that. I think most of us are aware of circumstances when we

write an introduction or ask to do that, there are the concerns and the issues of our time that we frequently have in mind and that we're trying to address. And that was the case with the introduction I was asked to do in 2010. And in a general sense, those concerns

who were in this area of birth control, in which he was experienced a lot of pressure and temptation. And we had, over a period of some years, her preference also for strength at seven, and an appeal to that as

what to us certainly sounded like birth control and sounded like birth control for people who came to speak about it were troubled by what they were hearing. So the introduction was not an exhaustive

the discussion I asked when I was able to address the concerns we saw at that time. So there's more that certainly could be said about it. I also think that in reading the introduction, if you read the section that precedes, which speaks of birth control in general,

I wrestle, as the brothers from the past don't know, with how to address these sometimes deceivingly difficult questions that I have said more than once.

When we consider those questions, it does not feel fair that a sinful, moral man ought to have to try to find the answers to these questions. Like Brother Mitchell said, we feel so small. We don't understand it so small. But what I behold is

And I know that Brother spoke, the introduction was to approach this whole issue from the perspective of faith. Faith in the power of God and in the Word of God. And so that's the starting point there. And for me,

This whole issue begins with that understanding that God is the giver of life. He not only gives the conception, but He has said, I will alter life by conception.

And we see from numerous examples in the Scriptures in which He says, or the Word says, that God gives conception. And there are examples of when God has both opened and closed wounds. And so, for me, as a sinful mortal who has no hope to grant life, I approach that with

a lot of cold fear and shudder. That's where I feel I have to start. [unintelligible] my dear sister.

wrote an article, it was published in the Zeitgeist. She's the mother of a large family. I think she has twins, children close together. She knew all the struggles that the mother had sort of experienced. And in her article, she mentioned this.

She realized, or she believes, and I get it with me here, I don't, but I'll talk in paraphrases. You know, as a believer, she believed that God not only knows what's the appropriate number of children, but he also knows when is the appropriate night to get them. Yeah.

So, I'd say that's the way I believe. That's the way I believe. After, well, Martin Albert Garland's sermon, I did not hear it at the sermon service, because I was in the meetings. And I was asked to...

please listen to because some were troubled by it. They all signed the next day. And I really, to be honest, didn't want to. And I was asked then to participate in the meeting.

to discuss the situation. So, in the morning, Wednesday morning, before the meeting, I finally listened to it. And there were a number of things that immediately caught my attention and understood what the concerns were. But

I wasn't surprised by what I heard because I had at least one, maybe more than one, I only remember one for sure, a phone call from a sister in our area who had been in conversations with a sister in the old place.

and got left troubled by it, because there was this kind of understanding. So I have to say I wasn't surprised. I was aware that that was out there. Yet, I have to say that I don't think that Starwood's intention

But I do feel there's still a wrong understanding of the text in one point that, in the end, I think is pretty important.

You know, I listened to the Hallowed Sermon once. I've never gone back to listen to it again after we visited about it. Later, I have heard that numerous individuals have mentioned

that Darwin had spoken on the same text in full play from Advent Sunday, the previous, well, on the first Advent Sunday, I think it was, in the previous year, and they were more troubled by that sermon. I have to say, it was not one big attempt to go and listen to it. I didn't want to. I don't want to be listening to people's sermons with a critical ear.

And after our, before our March meeting with the Wolf Lake Brothers, I finally felt that I had an obligation to do so. And so I did.

It's hard to listen and remember everything you're hearing, so as I went, I transcribed parts of it, most of it probably, so I could then go back and look, but I've done that once.

I don't want to be an editor, but the one thing I wanted to search for is what is the reason that it has this concern?

And if you'll let the bell ring, I can mention a couple of things that stuck in my mind that I already mentioned earlier that the Apostle Paul intentionally made.

I don't believe that the Apostle Paul is intentionally related to myself. Then Dharma made a statement that I think we all would agree with, that something to this effect could, you know, a believing person says you have a brain, use it.

And, of course, these children of God, it was Darwin who said that. That's not right. The example that Darwin gave, which has been alluded to, you know, in others, maybe, that the way that it's worked, we understand it's a heavy load on the mind.

To them, for that reason, I thought it was a useful distinction. But to me, there was an immediate, non-substantial difference between the two. God's brain did not be useful. God's brain is useful to me.

That's exactly what Tarkov just said in that case. You've got to pray and use it. And to me that statement is not, you can't reconcile that with the statement that your colleague is not going to be. That I believe that God also knows when to get up.

And, generally speaking, I would say that to me what seems to be the underlying problem was kind of what Bill said. He believes that this text does speak to these situations. I don't think that it does. It's taking the text out of its context.

First of all, we have to ask ourselves, what did Paul mean when he spoke to the Corinthians? What did it mean to him? We can apply those questions.

But we can't make Paul speak about something that he's not speaking about. And I think that the problem if we take this out of context is that we're much more apt to end up going on course a little bit. And so my concern about this is the same as Randy's.

that, I would say, in general terms, that both of the Tarot sermons give this picture that one falls intentionally in faith, which suggests that you're free to do what you wish. And, you know, there were other things that

also gives a sense of vagueness to death. And I think that that's, in my mind, that's problematic. I think it does seem, in this sense, that the Apostle Paul certainly does acknowledge that abstinence in and of itself is not sin.

But as we notice when we read, he very quickly points to the dangers of it. And he also speaks to the manner in which the things happen. And he does say very thoroughly.

that you can give yourself the fast and the prayer. But the fact that he has said that it's not sin in and of itself clearly does allow for room for other possible applications of it.

When Luther writes about it, and I mention this because one of the brothers in our discussions from Wolf Lake alluded to this, and he said that, you know, Luther leaves the couple. And, you know, I had read what Luther said, but then why? You know, I need to go back and examine that. What did Luther say? And my understanding is that

And he does say that, but he says it framed within also these words, that this whole exercise of abstinence is one of self-chastisement and devotion to spiritual things. That thought is there. And immediately after he says that

He leaves with a couple because the Apostle Paul has given one reason.

And neither I or anybody else should add to that. And he goes on to explain a little bit more that when the couple has decided whatever the reason may be to give themselves to this chastisement of prayer capacity. So the way I understand what Lewis says is there may be many reasons for which a couple

may choose to fast and pray. And those things who certainly difficult health issues, I think of King David who fasted and prayed when his infant son fell ill until the moment that he passed.

We haven't ended this fast. There are many reasons.

for which we might fast and pray. But it creates an entirely different context and frame of reference for our thoughts and understanding. When we understand it from that perspective, then we can, you know, the abstinence is for whatever reason you think. It gives it a different

a different element, a different perspective. And, you know, I look back now to 2010, and I've heard the recent concerns about exactly this issue that are popping up, not just here in the U.S., but throughout Christian humanity.

There's reason to talk about this. The pressures on young fathers and mothers have gotten greater. And I think that we have to approach this abstinence issue in the same mind and spirit that all other colleges do, with great caution and reservation to its use.

Because we can't dismiss those dangers with all thoughts. The Luther really speaks about that. You know, it's not a chaste life if one merely abstains from fornication with some other woman, for example.

In our thoughts, one brother already mentioned masturbation, which is a real temptation for many. We can't say we're living a chaste and pure life if we're engaged in those things while we practice abstinence with our spouse.

And like Jesus says, adultery begins in the heart with the luster of the eyes. And those are real dangers. So that I just share fully Randy's concern that in this time, the far greater danger

is on that side of that protein is drained away from faith and trust in God's power in the case of these difficult situations I have

I have to try to provide advice, not many times, but a few. And I can't tell you how much empathy and sympathy I have for those who face those trials. I've told them, I can't answer because I'm not in your shoes.

I can try to understand and I can share thoughts with you but in the end you have to pray and have a good thought for understanding and strength to do the right thing whatever it may be and

It's important, however, that you don't do, remember your own conscience. You don't want to move your conscience and seek God's help. You know, sometimes it's been said, because between woman and God,

Well, I think we all understand this. It seems to me it's very self-evident that unless there's a doctor here involved in a particular case, we're not doctors and we aren't going to interfere in that. We're not practitioners of medicine.

The very fact that in those situations, God's children seek the advice of other children, God's telling you it's not just between woman and doctor. It's between woman and for God. On Judgment Day, none of us are going to answer to our doctors. And that's why

Brothers and sisters in those difficult situations want to approach other children of God and ask for their advice. I can't imagine a speaker who would want to make that decision for somebody else.

Raise your hand if you do. I'll correct every case. I don't want to make that decision. And so they're very sensitive matters. And we do feel so small. But I have to say that on this issue,

I think that what happens is we end up having, we agree on everything but not quite because we have different definitions of what verbal control is in essence. And so I think it seems like a small thing but I think it's quite significant.

And some other thought here, but it seems to be, oh yeah, now I remember. You know, the question has come up, why does this sermon in fact sound in one way and others in another? You know, false teachers and false teaching have plagued God's congregation

From the beginning, really. The enemy of souls is always working to be out, drawing enemies, to lead us away from the word of truth, from the gospel. And otherwise heresies never happen.

you know, it can affect in that way that if something's off a little bit, they will find those who are drawn to it. I think there are others who

in a simple ignorance a lack of understanding or awareness may be swept along with that or not discerned that there's something off but when they hear what's right

Hopefully, and I think often this is the case, that they realize, wait a minute, that teaching that I taught was right, that is not quite right. And so those kinds of things can happen.

And we as preachers, you know, I have a lot of empathy for Darwin in this time. Who of us hasn't sat there wondering what text we're going to speak from?

Oh, boy. You know, and weak words happen to all of us. I don't think in this case that's the primary issue, though. I think this is the difference of understanding. And I don't think this issue is controlling until we come to grips with that.

You know, we can make errors. Goodness knows I've made enough of my own. I've spoken on text with, you know, I didn't understand it right. And later I've learned. And, you know, it's a different issue when that happens. But then if the error is pointed out and we persist in it, then we're

and a dangerous threat. And I hope that that's not the case, or that I point to any case in this. The more I've studied the text, the more I've realized

how lacking my own understanding is, but the basic issue that, you know, this text that Paul wrote in Corinthians, he wasn't writing about mother's health issues and birth control, but to the specific questions of the Corinthian congregation of that day. And so we have to be kind of cautious and wise and

How it applies to us. Blessings. I'd like to say in a blast of all that you know, I feel so small. So small. I want to share my own

understanding, how I believe, and even in my smallness, see what I believe and understand. You know, I'm not a spiritual profeach. I serve with

A lot of weakness. You know, the brothers know what a weakness is. Better than anybody else. The brothers I've served with, because they have to live with it. They have to be in discussion after discussion. And that's always so painful

that in spite of my many shortcomings and weaknesses, they have carried me as a breath of peace. I'd like to ask you, if I'll make you believe in me since then. Well,

put that in the back there and then you already the work will follow

And I guess I

Think about it this way. We've heard a couple of comments about examining oneself. It's important that we do so. But it's more important that we open our heart so that God can examine us.

It says in the 139th Psalm, Search me, O God, in all my heart. Try me in all my thoughts. And see if there be any wicked way in me. And lead me in the way of everlasting. And I guess I speak with this prayer that I thought of as a child.

This is God's kingdom. The Spirit is working in people's hearts. And I think we have heard about this spectacularly. Each brother who has spoken has said,

that this text is not to give permission to birth control or birth control, whether it's natural methods or some other. And that's a testimony that we can carry forward from this meeting, that if there's any confusion among believers, that for sure the Spirit has taught us all the same, that birth control is the same.

no matter in which way it is practiced. When I think about this sermon in particular, I felt I'd listened to it before and after, and it felt like it was God's Word.

But I agree with how Milford, the example chosen, didn't seem to be the good example. I would have felt more comfortable with one that spoke about metaphors from the Long Apple.

And so I would just like to be open and ask Darwin does he feel that is the example that he could use or has that changed? And then as we think about these discussions sometimes

We think of it as a problem. But God means it through God. He works in mysterious ways. He will follow us to make it to heaven. He wants to teach us the same. We don't follow a man, but we follow a voice that we can share. And it's good that we have this discussion.

One older sister shared with me this thought that I hope all hear. They can hear the spirit as it speaks in the congregation. The spirit that all gathers sanctifies life. Amen.

The thought has come to my mind that we don't go to these discussions with the answers, but we go to hear what the Spirit speaks. We speak how we believe in our heart, in the Spirit, in Christ, God, and life. The

Thought has also come that they thought about those discussions, that there's bold personalities on both sides. And I don't say that there's an accusation that wasn't there.

or this judgment, but just ask that each brother or sister, did I go there from the well? Did I go there that God would search me and the Spirit would teach me? Or did I go to prove myself? And so,

and have this kind of prayer in the Holy Spirit that shows us the love of God for bringing us together. And then if it's matters of personality, we need to take our own part of the cake. And then,

lost money, and fought and battled. When I think about the listening to sermons, sometimes we listen to each other and we learn from some of the brothers. But I needed to remind myself, first listen, go to my own soul instead.

And I worry that if we go examine the Arnold sermon or any other one that is critical here, that are we listening? Because God has intended us to listen so that there would be bread for our soul. And so, one of their thoughts is that why is there a different, why is it received differently?

It may be this, you know, if this is a tract of power or not. Then if one is tempted, we are all tempted in all ways, but we also have those low points on the wall that the enemy especially knows to attack. And if the one is tempted in matters of birth control,

Would then we hear this commitment? We seek for it and justify our actions. But then others may, who have disincentivated or controlled sin, and believe that as a child, would they be then carried away?

For sure we know that if one is from their heart acting in the wrong condition, that other truths will come forward in their life. It won't be that one in their heart decides to use this scripture portion or the other as a hope for sin.

Practice growth control. And then, in living in sin for the rest of your life, God has no concern. The fruits come forward when the heart is not correct. And then, as believers, as we love each other, we need to be careful about that.

I guess I'm left with this thought that God will not leave us in confusion. He will not leave us in broken love. He's a good God. And He will take care of us.

He will show us the way that leads to Heaven. We will each have a little understanding and a feeling that we have full understanding. But God gives us that measure that we need to see on this narrow way. Even if we have no understanding, but we have faith as a child,

And we believe simply on the potential work on His side. And we have that sincere desire to be God's own faith. Take us into His dimension. That's our destiny. And so, may we each, I pray for myself that God will protect me

you may protect these ones so you can travel and listen. From the heart of faith, from the heart of love, good and pure is peace. Peace. It will gather as well. I'm feeling my own weakness and poorness and I'm hard to deal with. I'm trying to get past it. I'm going to bring my own sin to God. Thank you, Jesus.

I want to share just one more thought that came to mind in the fifth or spring of our discussion. It comes to my mind about, as we listen to these sermons, and the Father having the committee to review them,

It feels to me that that should, we don't need, but that that should continue to rest in the Mother of Christ and Jesus, where all the gifts are. One elder gentleman shared with me, you can probably be embarrassed to know that relating this, shared with me a dream. And it came to me, the thought, the words of Joel were, the old man felt a dream.

And he had this dream about this idea that many beginning sermons, that three speakers came from Finland to help. And they said, we haven't had one before, we don't need one now, we don't need one in the future. We have the God our Father, and the Jesus our Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit.

And so just thought I'd share that thought also that it feels like that's just the kind of patient that will bring up the concerns and crap that's involved with speaking there. Yes, that way it's being passed. I'll just say this. I'm not sure I understood your last comment there, Phil, but we don't have a committee that reviews the servants. So at least at this time, we don't have that. And I would carry that in the same way that

The reason we reviewed that sermon is because of the questions that were brought of it, and it's not something that we would wish to do. I've never heard a discussion about a committee who reviewed a sermon in my entire life. We have no committee. No committee to review a sermon.

Okay, yeah, as far as I, okay, as far as, yeah, I understand that. Locally, we might have had discussions that way. I can understand that. So I just wanted to clarify that. Okay, and then Yari is next, and then Oli. I'll begin by saying that I

approach this weekend in weakness and in much prayer to the Heavenly Father. First, that He would lead my spirit to be tied with the true spirit of God.

but also that He would lead all of us here to hear that. Oftentimes we can feel fearful and a lot of these fears and

Tell us, come from the enemy of souls. And God has pulled us to where we are gathered in his name, and healed me there in his name. And I can say that I have felt the spirit of the presence of God. Thank you.

I also want to talk some of what Rick Nevala has told me. I've also made discussions with believers. And even though this issue is far from our area, I've heard the fear coming from God's people.

that commented, will there be a heresy? And I feel that I have been such a poor shepherd and servant in this, even in these discussions. Even now I want to

Run back to my dear brothers in faith and assure them that they can believe that it is forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. And encourage them to come close to this entry of God's kingdom. The angel of souls is a liar. He is a very, very deceiving liar.

He can take issues. He can build them into big issues. And I'm even honored at why this is going into such a large issue. But I've also had those thoughts.

that is there in God's children. That maybe it is this way that there is a spirit that yearns to hear that message of birth control. And has this temptation been exposed to God's children? And I can only say that

That if I am one of God's children, this temptation can be closed. The world around us certainly wants to preach the message of reason and understanding. And I have tried to get going to that message of

And even in bringing my family there's many times that I've been tempted and had to doubt the care and trust of the knowledge of God. Yet I've wanted to cling to the promises and assurances that God cares for his children. That God is the giver of life.

and what can happen. The message begins to come from the politics. It is this way that even though we don't feel like ourselves to be elders in God's kingdom, but we have been asked to, to serve. And the children of God turn to those who serve.

And if that message comes from those servants, that it is okay to practice abstinence. But it can quickly become confusing. We don't want to put it into our own hands and minds.

[personal details omitted]

God is able to bring us back together. And I feel that in this moment that God is blessed. So I guess I

a little bit worried and fear that there is an issue here in God's congregation. I would encourage each one of you to return to bold with that message of bold, but also

Pray for the Heavenly Father that he would unite his kingdom. God has only one spirit, and that spirit longs to be together as one. When we feel that difference in spirit,

That it can fully attest to this, that there are some difficulties. And I too would like to ask to hear the gospel. What will be this next?

We'll call only Petri and Andrew. It's really nice to listen to this conversation. When we think about the matter of faith, it's simple. It's so simple.

that even the most holiest person on this earth can only receive what he wants to believe. They don't need to understand anything that they can believe in all this faith. It's so simple. But when it becomes complicated,

is when we try to understand the mysterious of God to our human reason. It is possible. Now, when we observe a word, think about this.

Here's, as we've already heard before, the sermon of faith and the sermon of reason, and also the sermon of unbelief. The sermon of faith is always preached through the Holy Spirit.

which unites, gathers, as we have heard from many others. It never divides. It always unites us as one.

And when we have this kind of concern, as we have heard, that has divided the children of God, there's always reason to pause and think about it, and talk about the matter together. I can be wrong in this.

and your brother is driving you. That's all. But when certain device is not in we, the world. It is something else. Our spirit

It doesn't answer the Spirit of God. And that's what delights. Servant of reason is servant of our end. It's not servant of the Holy Spirit. And when we talk about this kind of difficult matters,

I understand that his spirit doesn't answer. I think that it was the Holy Spirit who wrote the Romans. That the spirit itself witnessed with our spirit. So, I think that your brothers

that there is a separation between the weak words and the difference in hearing. When we think about the time of heresies, I have not lived those times, but I have heard older brothers have shared sometimes their experiences about those times. And those weaker brothers who went into heresy

They never were humble brothers. They were strong brothers and they didn't care of the flock of Christ. They gathered flock for themselves. If I remember correctly, Peter writes something that feeds the flock of God.

And humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God. So as the servants of God, we should humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God. And God would hold them worthy. And when we hear the servant preached by Holy Spirit, our spirit says, Amen.

Also, when Lord Jesus Christ sent His own disciples, He first said, Receive ye of multitudes. And then He said, Well, forgive us our sins. And again,

when we talk about the Sermon on Faith, when it's preached by Holy Ghost, it comforts, unites, gathers young men of God together. We don't need to even think about what the Elysee brothers have said. We don't need to even think about what the brothers

have sinned in their weakness, we forgive them if that kind of weak words have been said. But if there's no same spirit, that's something that we have to talk about. When we preach the gospel, it's always preached not only the sins forgiven in Jesus' name and the precious blood,

Well, but we believe that it is peace, freedom, and enjoyment. And when we believe our own sins forgiven, we can own this peace, freedom, and joy in our heart. We don't need to look for it anywhere else. We can just praise our Heavenly Father that minds are served.

So those were thoughts that came to my mind that when we talk about this kind of thing that

Even it's a sensitive that we always remember the separation of those two. And we love and carry one another in love. And we pray for each other that God would give us right works. But more than anything that when we take care of our own hearts,

God will speak through the Spirit. And He gives the right voice. And we can trust in Him. But upon myself, so small and so little understanding, I also want to hear the gospel. Amen.

Some brothers have already said what's on my mind. However,

I also feel myself that I've been somehow away from issues at hand, and yet I was able to be there for the meeting last weekend. And a couple of thoughts have come to my mind, and they've mostly been around

to what Ulda also shared. And myself was too young to be around for the last heresy. Yet, as some of the other Three Brothers have remembered, I do remember my own home.

did i remember at the closing of the meeting last week when the dear brother raised that question does god's kingdom look like a gold we can't lost what does it look like to you dear brother

My dear old Diana Frodo also was through times of war. God sent help. And the Gospels, so preciously preached. There were those that preached in the wrong spirit.

There were those with itching ears. There were those with false watchings. There were cloudy days. God, through His Spirit, came there and had a sweet message for us.

Do not harden your heart. There are those, even now, who want to pass that on. Don't harden your heart. Hear what the Spirit says. It's the Spirit that calls and gathers. If I think of my home Zion now,

such a time of peace and joy as we are planning for the services of God's children. I want to welcome you all here.

And when we come here for services, we want to be here with you. At the hearing of God's word. Where else would we be? God through us, speakers. We have weak words.

But he speaks the servant of faith. He also calls those who have gone astray. We humble ourselves as the dear brother we already mentioned. That has also been a thought in my mind. That God

He resisted, proud, but he giveth grace to the humble. Oh, that God would allow us so that we would never groan ourselves. For the other thing I thought of, even though we have a time of peace, even there, a time of watching, we have a common enemy. We don't fight against each other.

We fight against the common foe. That's why God gives us these occasions. We come from prevalent and fearful, but we need each other. All of us. Children of God need the sermon of faith. The young couples inside need the sermon of faith. They need to hear. Say the sermon of old.

Our faith has not changed. The same. Jesus Christ is the same. Today. Yesterday. Forever. Words don't change our faith. The enemy wishes to break love and change the way we believe.

They need to hear the circle of old. Build homes. Raise families. God will be with you. He will never forsake you. We're on the way to heaven.

I've had quite a few thoughts in my mind since last night. And first of all, I'd say that very often they do observe the Word. They make good choices. They give it all the focus of their own shoes.

You see, brothers and sisters around me, if I was to bravely were to speak in a way that caused confusion and division,

I couldn't help but remember the words of Jesus when we were talking of offending even one or two in God's Kingdom. And Jesus said that if we were to offend one of these, it would be better if a male soul had a round-wet beard than a female. He would be cast and drowned in the sea.

They didn't want to go. And when we serve in God's kingdom, there is, on my own part, sort of a fear in my mind.

But being here at this camp, and having the feeling that if I were to care for this dude, then brothers would come to correct my matters.

I have taken great comfort in the words of Peter. When he writes in this way,

Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any pride or justification. For the prophecy came not in the old time by the will of man, but holy men of God's name, as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This has brought me to the conclusion that when I go to serve in God's kingdom,

I can be free that it's not my private interpretation, but it's the Holy Spirit's. And we haven't heard or even heard this word or interpretation. They said. He said. I said. And much better.

It would be if we could just, Lord, if we could say it. I recall the event that I was reminded of when thinking about this last night. Three of us were gathered, talking, three believers. And for some reason we were talking about something that happened in the Old Testament.

And one of the brothers said it this way. That you don't actually need that. You don't have to have it. I remember we were stunned. And speechless.

because it was a state of unbelief. And I remember thinking that, how strong is that line between faith and unbelief? And I remember thinking that it certainly isn't a deep wood fence that I have to climb up over. But it's more like a fine line of ground sand.

That if I shoot my feet to the left a little, that line, and people ought to know, or if I shoot my feet to the right a little, that line will disappear. The other thought I had was, um, with respect to the addicts and the people.

And I'm not sure the language or a few other descriptions of that attitude, but my mind sort of sticks to that. And from the sugarcoating of that, I see it as the spirit of opposition.

For me, it's that simple. It is a spirit of opposition. There's no need to sugarcoat it any other way. And I couldn't help but think of the disciples of Jesus. I remember the conversation or the discussion they were having. And when they asked Jesus,

that who is the greatest in the kingdom of God? We don't know what led that question. But for some reason, I was reminded of that last night. And when Rick mentioned something about the little guy and the big guy,

sort of reaffirmed that, that question of who is the greatest in the kingdom of God. And we remember Jesus answered, what a child is that, blessed child is it, such is the kingdom of heaven. And furthermore, I'm just going to become a little child, you shall not enter it. Amen.

We understand that there is only one He that we know the Holy Scriptures about. And it is this Holy Spirit. But it also takes place in the mind of a child to believe.

It is my holy prayer that the severe issues that I've been talking about here

Okay, Steve, how do you all have the last speaking turn before we go on to snack? And Darwin has asked for a turn. So Steve and then Darwin.

Anyway, it's been a long time ago since I have some thoughts, and I just, I wonder if I should even say anything anymore, but I guess I'm pretty hesitant to raise my hand, so I guess as long as my name is here, I'll do it.

First of all, I would like to ask a question. As you know, as one of the LLC board members, we're present. Great answer for service. Certainly that's coming to question.

And so the origination of the concerns came from obviously those who were there present. And it was a few days later before I actually heard anything about it.

And then I guess I thought, well, I probably should listen to it because I would imagine I'll be engaged in some conversations and be asked questions about what took place. And so I didn't want to listen with a critical ear. And I decided I might listen to it one time.

and see what I would feel would have been the reason that someone would have then become so concerned about it. But it just seemed like if anyone has had weak words or poor ways to communicate, it has been me. When I have been speaking and my understanding is so good,

There have been numerous brothers who have mentioned how when we examined and tried to ponder what was Paul's reason for writing this portion and what was he, what question was he actually answering and how perhaps it was used out of context.

These paths certainly are appropriate, but they're at a state that we don't know about yet.

And I don't think these are the reasons that the general audience and listener had concern. I don't think if the text is taken out of context, if what is spoken answers to the Spirit, I don't think that great concern is going to be that that

The text really doesn't even belong to that explanation. When I am not committed, which I felt was probably the concern, there were many places where I agreed 100%. And it was clearly said that the person killed himself. But I think where the example was given of a mother who was tired,

bothered being gone from home a lot. I think that example was, in my mind, the reason that the concerns were raised. It seems that it could have been taken very easily that the door was open to the

to permit a couple to abstain as long as the husband and wife were in agreement, for various reasons, for example, bitterness with many children and so on. It's been a little while now, my wife and I have been empty nesters.

But it seems like it's pretty quick that we forget how much work and how demanding it is to raise a large family. We were reminded, and I think my wife was especially reminded because she spent a couple of days

with one of our daughter's family when they had another very nice child. So she was there with the children, taking care of them. It doesn't take too long to remember back to those days and to be thankful that you have children when you're young rather than when you're old. But I think the message that we heard as young

Parents in that time of life was a message of faith. In spite of the sacrifices and the much work that the children are, and the doubts that we have about what we provide for them,

The message was, as it is in all things, the opinion, the God's teachings.

God will help day by day. We've heard examples here at other discussions how in very difficult situations God has help.

And there is joy when we can say that we have been obedient and God answered our needs and gave what we needed at that time. My wife and I were fortunate that we didn't have any of these life threatening situations during the final 30 years.

At this point, none of our children have been in those situations. [family medical details omitted]

And even for a couple that doesn't have any of these issues,

When we look at the world around us and how things have changed, this idea of accepting all the children that God gives you is more and more important. And the ridicule we know is not going to decrease. It's going to decrease.

I've lived around here for almost my entire life. I've worked for over 40 years in this area. And so I've gotten to know a lot of people and I see a lot of obituaries now as I get older of people that I've become acquainted with. And one thing I so often notice, the generation of my parents or my grandparents, many of them came from large families. And it seems like

Less frequently, the people of my generation became a large family. And now, the next generations are continuing to be smaller and smaller. And another one, I read in the paper just in the last week. A mother who was over 90 years old passed away. She came from a family of 16 children.

And surprisingly enough, children, which were of my generation, there was 11 children in that family. And now that grandmother was survived by 23 grandchildren from 11 children. And that seems like that's the way, the direction so many are taking in this world. And so those...

Those trials of out-accepting children, the rate of guilt that comes with it, I'm sure is going to continue to increase. I would ask that you would remember how it affected you. You didn't hear it first.

You guys, a few notes here in listening. I would say my thoughts are that birth control, just stand.

And I have never supported that. And yet I listen and I came with the humble desire to hear what the Spirit said. And I haven't said how to speak much about the sermon and see as defending it because

I wanted to see what the brothers had to say. And so, in that, I would only say a portion in the

In the sermon, which I can see that the way it came out was to many confusing. I did say in there, I think, or I did, that the Spirit of God, or God's presence, when people make decisions, but in how it came out, obviously, I've listened to it,

That wasn't clear. And so in regards to that thought that Bill mentioned,

You know, looking back on how the words came out, you know, you wish you could have done a better job explaining or thoughts left incomplete and so forth, but I don't want to sound, as I said, defensive. There was a, I heard when they said, this was most, let's say, confusing, and I'll, I'll,

be open and free that I want to listen to what the brothers say. And I do believe this is an old animal's thing. I have no doubts in my mind about it. And I do believe that Jesus died for my sins. And they're forgiven. And so whatever

issues that the Confucian obviously has caused or led for whatever. I ask that you brothers forgive me for all my sins, whatever they are, and whether it's things I don't know about. I ask even there, for the goodness, reach out to me and free me from whatever it is.

I do wish to be free and remain in God's kingdom and be a brother. I have no desire to be other than smallest servant. I do wish to serve because I've been asked and only that. Okay, dear brothers.

Here's what we think, just at least Keith and I, in a quick rush up here in the schedule, is we could take now our afternoon break, so we could go now and have a group picture. As long as everyone's here, we can assemble here straight from here out to the picture area there. We're going to take it.

down at the, okay, so it'll be taken from up at the deck down so we can get everybody's faces. And then we'll have a free time. Then we can come back in and get some coffee or a snack. And we can take free time then until 4.30. So we'll assemble back here. We'll ring the bell. We'll assemble back here at 4.30 until 5.30. And then go to our dinner break.

Okay, so let's go up to have a picture. Who's going to hold the 50 iPads?

Oh, therefore, and teach in each nation and place my word of salvation.

Oh, how rich God is Jesus, cause let us approach him in prayer. He blesses us springtime with goodness, and gives in his love.

is

as gathers them in.

We sing of our hope evermore. The gospel of Lamb, our new grace is the way, Therefore, as the echo of the earthy waves,

For we will sound their abode To Christ for His mercy and love

So now, as I mentioned, our intention is to move on to this topic of forgiveness that has been discussed, but realizing that some may have thoughts yet that they want to share from this morning's earlier

So you can bring them in if you like as well in your speeches and we can kind of continue to discuss as you brothers want and we have then the evening yet to discuss this same topic. So we'll continue now until 5.30 when there's supper and then hour break and we'll come back and sing a few songs and then continue the discussion.

So this part of the introduction from April 8th, I've entitled forgiveness, unconditional forgiveness, and then conditional repentance.

Prior to the April 8th meeting, the question of forgiveness has been touched on very briefly in the discussions between LLC and Wolf Lake Brothers. At the end of the March 16th meeting, we collectively decided that this question would be the focus of the April 8th meeting, that is the meeting that was held in Minneapolis with 50 plus participants.

This question of unconditional forgiveness or conditional repentance surfaced when we have revisited the problems of the 70s and 80s. But as time has gone on, we realize that it is an area of increasing discussion dividing the minds of believers. The enemy is busy working to divide us over our treasure

This question about unconditional forgiveness or conditional repentance in recent times surfaced at the 2011 meeting of boards of the Midwestern Area Congregations, the MIDFAC, we call it, at the Rockford Church in 2011. There the topic of spiritual discussion for the meeting of all the boards of Minnesota and Saskatchewan, North Dakota,

was how God helped us through the difficulties of the 70s and 80s. I kept the presentation there as I did for the minister's teleconference that same year in 2011. In Finland, they had just had some...

discussions about these same topics at a weekend camp for the SRK board members and some staff members. And then they had some articles that were published in the that we used at that time. And I kept a presentation about that from a perspective of North America.

So, considering those 70s and 80s discussions, we realized that soul care was needed, but at times went too far. During those trying times, mistakes, even serious ones, were made by the servants of the time, weak servants as we are today. Those who made mistakes acknowledged and cared for their errors.

they were able to believe their faults forgiven and have gone to their reward. In spite of our mistakes and weaknesses, God led us through the wilderness of that time and leads us yet today. At the 2011 Mi'kmaq discussion, a local congregation board member stated something to the effect that he believes there is never a time when the gospel could not be preached.

Another comment was made in support of the brother's statement. There were other speeches that differed, noting scriptural examples of cases where a blessing was not extended to one who requested it because the individual tried to repent with conditions. Examples included Saul before Samuel,

Esau before his father Isaac, and the parable of the ten virgins. The brothers from Wolf Lake related in and after the September 30, 2015 meeting

that they had gotten left bothered. That is, our second meeting of Wolf Lake and LLC, Wolf Lake Brothers expressed there, in addition to the discussion of the sermon, they expressed that they had gotten left bothered by the way things got left in 2011 at the Mid-Mac meeting. And they requested that it would again be discussed at the 2015 Mid-Mac meeting.

And the Wolf Lake Brothers further suggested that the presentation would be given by Neal, warning me on the church law of Christ, because he had kept something on that, a similar line, in the Monago-Wolf Lake area. And the Wolf Lake Brothers felt it would be a good basis for the discussion at the 2015 Mid-Mac meeting.

This presentation, Niels, was from 2010 at Phoenix Winter Services. And so in addition to giving that presentation on the church law, then the thought was that this question that got left unclear from 2011 would be again discussed at the 2015 Mid-Mech meeting.

So the LLC didn't decide what presentation would be kept there, but the Midwestern Area Mission Committee accepted the suggestion of the Wolf Lake brothers and the presentation was kept, as I noted above.

At this past NIPNAC meeting in 2015 in December, discussion comments on this forgiveness question noted how forgiveness is unconditional and how Jesus has said that we will not be forgiven by God in heaven if we do not forgive men their sins. Examples of errors from the 70s and 80s were noted when the gospel was wrongly withheld.

Additionally, comments and scriptural examples were made about cases where believers have not been able to preach forgiveness to one such as Saul. Saul rejected God's word and blamed the people for his sins, thus putting conditions on his repentance. Believers here and in Finland openly acknowledged that mistakes were made in those difficult times of the 70s and 80s.

For example, there were times when the congregation was silent when an individual asked for the gospel. However, those examples of the 70s and 80s are not what we were discussing now in 2015, but rather the question, is there ever a situation when the gospel cannot be preached?

When asked to answer this question, brothers serving LLC have expressed that we always preach the gospel to the penitent. That's our desire and joy to do so, and we are not to evaluate the condition of someone's heart. Yet, is it scriptural to say that never could a situation arise when the gospel cannot be preached to one asking for it?

For example, if a heretic comes and blatantly states that we are doctrinally the same, won't you just bless me and greet me with God's peace? If we bless such a one, are we joining with the spirit of heresy, a false spirit? Do we bless such a one into a false peace?

This may seem like a hypothetical question, but such situations are not so unusual in times of battle in living Christianity. Believing veterans of the previous times of spiritual warfare have experienced such situations in which they have not dared to preach the gospel to the impenitent because they openly hold to their false doctrine and spirit.

Blessing such a person puts a child of God in danger of compromising the borders of God's kingdom and ultimately losing the kingdom that they hold so dear. These are very sensitive matters in which we want to seek the mind of God and remain in the place of a disciple. This is not a question that LLC brothers have raised.

nor is it pressing the minds of believers in general. But when some have wanted an answer, and even pressed for an answer, we have tried to answer. It's hard to understand why this discussion is taking place when it is not a problem in God's kingdom today. The gospel is freely preached to the penitent,

Do you brothers know of any situation where the gospel has not been preached to a penitent sinner in recent times? So this question of forgiveness was agreed at the end of our March 16th meeting with the Wolf Lake brothers that this would be the important matter to discuss at April 8th and that was the bulk of the discussion.

We'll all be discussed. I'll just add here, when I concluded my comments at the April 8th meeting or this introduction, I said, in conclusion, I want to say, dear brothers, we are before serious matters, serious questions. I told my wife in coming here, that is, to the April 8th meeting, that I had never been in this position before in the work of God's kingdom.

Never before such difficult questions. And the enemy is working hard to divide the flock. The dangers are there. These are not small matters. But as Jim Frantti pointed out in the beginning of the April 8th meeting, let's not battle each other, but rather battle the enemy of the soul who wants to divide us. We are all faulty and in need of forgiveness.

Be free, dear brothers, to continue to speak your heart open. Garak is going to bother you in the discussion.

A little closer, Don.

Okay, they're coming through now. As I mentioned in my previous speech today, I am very happy, I have been very happy to be here, and especially to listen to the subsequent speeches after my speech. My heart has been warmed.

to hear these precious brothers speak so clearly and openly and instructionally, we might say.

But as I have listened here, it seems like my own understanding is so small, I almost feel like I'm a leaf in a field. But I still want to travel with your brothers. And I want to leave all my sins and doubts to you. I want to leave this.

on this subject of forgiveness i have to agree with what he's brought out there is no condition for preaching forgiveness the only condition is upon the person that might be putting a condition on i was uh reminded of

A real incident last night evening when Jim Crockett mentioned about that one person that asked for forgiveness after being blessed. And she said that, I forget exactly what it was, but she said she's been a believer all her life and penetrated all her life long.

That is when one should not let someone into a false spirit, false understanding like that. The incident I want to relate pertains to my wife, Polly's mother.

She went in the last heresy. When we tried to talk to her she said that she can't see where walter charlotte can be wrong he's been preaching for 40 years how could he be wrong and she continued in that as we might say our mouths were closed after that

But then in her later years, as she lived to almost 97 years old, she started to develop dementia. And Pauline and I were visiting with her one day, and we thought, well, in her dementia, she got caught, and she said, you know, I've had my sins forgiven, once and maybe even twice. And

we kind of wondered at that time can you yet bless me well my wife pauline being that was her mother she tried to tell her mother you went with your uh with walter on the left therapy uh defending the wrong character and so forth i don't remember anything she said

And after she was done, I continued to talk to her. And after I spoke to her for a while, I said, wouldn't you want to go to heaven like your mother and father, who were in the same faith that we are? And I didn't have to say very much, and she raised both hands and cried out, I don't want to get to heaven. Well, she had no choice but to preach the gospel to me.

Of course, we left from there. But the next day, it so happened that Frankie looked up, Amelia hung up, and my aunt went to visit her. And they found a different person there. He was so happy.

And especially when Julia told me how he greeted her so enthusiastically because, in heresy, he had been very cold towards her. I suppose thinking that he had had regards to go into what she considered a heresy.

But when they gave up this noose, that redeemed our house. So repentant that she must have ended the day in his own mind when she got lost at that moment.

Then later, of course, Jim Frantti visited her and made her communion, and from what I heard from Jim, he also had a good testimony of her faith. Also, my half-brother, Albert, told me about his life that he visited her, and they also gave a testimony that he accepted in his faith.

But the, if you want to call it the humorous part of this whole story is that Pauline has a sister in Tucson, Arizona, who is a Baptist, a self-righteous Baptist. About a week after her mother had repented, he called Pauline. He said,

Mother is different. It must have changed her meditation. She's altogether a different person.

So Pauline explained to her, yes, he is a different person. He has the grace of repenting from heresy. He's been back in your God's kingdom. Her sister says, well, that's nice, but I don't think it's a nice thing. So I just thought of that. Here we see how

You know, we can discuss with people that we have reservations. You know, it appears that there are conditions. We can discuss these things and we don't have to withhold or we can discuss and then...

Now, the Spirit will reveal the situation. I would say in this case, the Spirit did reveal [unintelligible]. We have no choice but to preach the gospel. So I would ask you, dear brothers and sisters, to remember me and my wife also in prayer. She said that it [would help?]. [Unintelligible]

So, I hope you serve me right tomorrow night. I want to take this opportunity to say that I hope we have good meetings on this meeting. Thank you, Don, for your greetings there. Okay, Wayne Calio and Ed Russell, correct? Yeah, first thing I want to say is that I'm confused that this has become an issue.

that being said we don't talk

who had never been recorded ever in Scripture, he looked for places where we could quote it from the Gospel. Jesus Christ said he came not to condemn the world, but to save the world from sin.

And he passed on both of these. When God responded to him as a human, he passed it to us. And does it not leave with us to do the same, to seek, to forgive, to bring people into the kingdom, to keep people in the kingdom? That's what Christianity and faith is all about. When you put it in that whole context, I don't understand why there is a problem or a question

That being said, I don't want to say any more about that. I would ask that if there are others who perhaps think contrary to that, that they would maybe be given the microphone very early on so they can state their position, because I don't understand the opposite position. But that's weird. There is a valid position.

Raise your hands. Russell. Russell's next. And then Craig after that. That's the extended list, so if you want to get on the list, it's fairly short.

Dear brothers, I would like to relate the same story I related in the meeting last Friday. Sinika's parents, like my parents, went into the heresy. Mine into the Torola and hers into [unintelligible]. And then they later split into the small firstborn [heresy] [unintelligible] in Finland started to wither away.

But I believe it was '82, Sinika was there with a large American group that went there. And so his young mother, of the kids she was visiting, stayed at her post. And those shootings were at old, so that was pretty convenient.

But as they were leaving then, her mother said, asked her to bless her. And so she asked, she was surprised of course, she asked, do you want your sin of heresy forgiven? And she said, I'm not a heresy, I don't need the sin of heresy forgiven. And he responded, I told her it was my conviction in the Holy Spirit. And she started to say, I can't bless you in that condition.

And later on, she was so troubled over that, that she called in to verify with him that didn't she do right. said, oh, that's absolutely correct. You just can't bless somebody because you're joining them with that. So this whole question, as said, I've been very disturbed about it. It just doesn't make any sense. And I've become more convinced now, as we've discussed it more and more, that this is a wrong doctrine.

Those who have pushed this issue have been pushing the wrong doctrine. Now obviously our client is that the doctrine and the practice of the kingdom of God, that under those kinds of conditional attendance, you cannot preach the gospel. Okay, Craig Kupala, and then Neil Wardy.

I just want to go back briefly to earlier and put this out there because I was asked by one dear brother to clarify. And I hope when I made the comment on my concern that

Perhaps in some ways or instances, but a lot has dropped in, in regards to a focus on the others, the righteousness of life versus the righteousness of faith, and the righteousness of one another. But I was not accusing any of those brothers, and I hope any of you brothers that have felt that, let's please do this.

I guess my brother wasn't sure that that was the situation. But I have had the concern, and I guess my wish is this, and I know for myself that I would never want to become a person who would be one that someone would go to for all answers. And I hope for all of us brothers that our wish is

I don't think any one of us wants to be raised above any member of the congregation.

So my concern and wish is this, that when I hear something that maybe feels, touches us in a way that we would feel uncomfortable about, we would feel free to visit without dropping. How do we see this matter?

And I would hope the same, that I would say something I would have done later in this meeting, and in a sermon, that that same freedom would be given to the new generation. We need to carry one another in love, and that's how it is. Again, I would say, I hope I haven't offended anyone in my earlier comments, but I just wanted to be clear, I carry all of you in love.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

It seems to me that if one were to forgive, for instance, a heretic who simply asks for a blessing when they're not wanting to repent of heresy, it's the same as

reading which we've understood in God's kingdom to be to not be according to God's word. There's a verse in the Bible that I think applies here and applies

It's right in my understanding that he's letting go. It's found in 1 Timothy 5.2. And it says, Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither he partaker of other men's sins,

to keep myself pure. That I understood them to mean that you wouldn't go out and you'd preach the gospel. And there are situations where you wouldn't. And if you do, you're being partaker of their people. And if I'm wrong on that point, please correct me

And it seems like it's another way that we would not, I think, the keep thyself pure portion is saying that we wouldn't have to be partaker of another person's sin. But I want to...

express a certain experience that [my wife] and I had. [A relative], we heard, had repented. And a few weeks later, we thought we'd go visit her, you know, because she had a false faith. And so we went up there and

And first we visited her for quite a while, and she didn't know her aunt had been bleeding. And then we visited the aunt, and it became clear that she wasn't bleeding, and she said the best of...

all churches will go to heaven. And I asked her, why did you want to hear the gospel? And she said, because it sounds good, feels good. But if she had, when she first asked for the gospel, and said that she would hate the gospel,

That's what all churches will say. But Leslie, it appears from her mouth that she's not complete with that. Her power in the gospel is that it will bring one from the country of God's kingdom. And so how would one be able to preach the gospel in that situation?

Okay, thank you, Neil. Next is Convisory and then Equal Possibility. Good morning. I've had many thoughts that I've done through the night. Thank you. Thank you.

And it has felt to me that the Spirit has guided these discussions last week and now today. And as I speak here, I speak believing that I'm speaking before the Spirit of God. And if I, like, experience that,

I had a time in my life where I had many questions in my mind and I thought lots and read lots of papers. And it seemed like my mind began to guide me more. I remember this text that Wayne read about boosting and binding.

I might even use this viking to be the viking that you heal somebody like you would a viking around broken labor. But when I understood that that was not correct, then I stopped that.

And even told a brother that, well, if I'm wrong, just correct me. And that was my thought process at that time, that, well, if I'm wrong, just correct me. But I was building on a foundation that was other than faith, it was reason. And this was the kind of question that came up, well, if I'm wrong, just correct me.

But God told me that before I hit him, I was completely not corrected. And I just said, filthy rag. And when God was shown to me, then it was very clear that there was only one question left.

Is there enough grace to improve me? It didn't matter that I had no understanding. The only question was, is there enough grace to improve me? And for a while, I did sleep with Eric E. very closely. We were brothers, pretty close, pretty honest.

And it's a low place, but it's a place to be. There's no comfort there for the flesh. There's no comfort. There is no comfort. There is no comfort. There is no comfort. There is no comfort.

Okay, we go bussing and then morning after. Coffee, I'll give you. Thank you.

In my heart,

I believe, like Russell explains what happened to Sinika, that when Sinika was discussing the matter with his mom, she believed that the Holy Ghost died in her.

gave her that wisdom that was needed at the time. With my whole heart, I would like to believe that I would have that strength to leave all of my doubts,

behind him trusted Heavenly Father through his spirit would involve Gaia and help him in this kind of situation this good and disgusting matter but yet I believe

that if we can believe this way that the Spirit guides us like God's promise that the Spirit will guide, instruct, and lead us

If you leave it this way, we don't need to worry about it because it's great.

I'd like to share this portion of the Bible and share it with a couple of dear brothers who have been reading it already. But I thought that maybe I can explain my thoughts on this portion of the Bible. This was the Genesis and Lot was in

And the angels came there. And as those men, the city, saw those angels, they lost power.

They called on Lot and said unto him, Where are the men which came into the field this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them. Finished by Lot, he said unto him, Go ye to sleep with them.

So I went out the door on them and shut the door after them and said, I pray you, brethren, do not go so wickedly. Behold, now I have two daughters. These have not gone, and let me, I pray you, bring them after you.

And do ye then that which is good in your eyes. Only on the beast men do not we. For therefore it is beyond the shadow of my throat.

And they stand back, and they sit, and this one fellow is in this closure, and he will need to be judged. Now will we feel worse with thee than with them? And they dressed sorrow on the man, he went lost, and came near to break the door.

of the men put forth their hands and pulled up into the house to them and up to the door. And they spoke of men that were at the door and out to flight, both small and great. It's my understanding that

lost his heart wanted to get talk to these unbelieving people and when they

wanted to deceive these people outside, wanted to play with those men. Theocracy. Daughters. And all of us that are fathers, we like to

protect our children we like to only mention our children our daughters in the general sense we would not like to do it anybody could touch them could violently but this portion of bible

It's about daughters that are not touched versus daughters not touched. And other parts, portions of the Bible talk about there is a person to be at the bleeding

and I see it this way that God wanted to offer gospel for these men outside that pure gospel is girl for pure gospel is pure

What is being sent out by the angels? They do not want you to receive this gospel. And it was meant that those men attacked God. And those angels came and told God the Messiah.

blinded those men and exposed to those. It seems to me that the time of visitation, the last time of visitation for those men at that city was over. And

My point, why I wanted to tell you this story is that even the last day of our life, we like to do what God's Word instructs us. We like to go. And it is not on your own.

to know or trust for the heart and foundation of evil or bad. But we'd like to trust that God with His Spirit guides and knows.

But I can't like to speak to the Pope today any time. I myself find myself so small and in all this I have so little understanding.

I'm feeling that even that I agree, my heart says Amen to comments that I've heard. But that fear of unbelief is always there. And in the name of the soul,

to attack us often even when we are here next to your brothers and I feel that he's attacking me from left to right preaching to me that your thoughts are not right

But I want to believe that God, with His Spirit, guides us and speaks through us. But yet I feel that I'm in this guiltful mess.

I would like to paddle together with you. Okay. Ben, you want to have your speaking term before supper? Okay. So here's the list then. So Rick...

You'll be first after supper, just like you were first after lunch, right? If that's the case, how's your supper going to taste now? Okay, so it'll be Rick, Joe, Laudy, Ray, Ron Simonson,

Marcus Lowe, Walt Lampe, Bill Cole, Tom Prada, Nathan Lohan, after supper. Go ahead. Before I begin, I would like to hear the gospel for my many sins and devils. When beginning to prepare for camp,

Knowing that this topic of forgiveness would be discussed, this gave me the most pause and concern. Because there is, I don't think, a matter more central to God's kingdom than forgiveness.

As a younger one who did not live through the heresy or even those times after where those errors and care-taking took place, from my youth I have only heard one clear message on forgiveness. That always to one who needs that gospel, it is preached.

but also when the brothers have spoken of experiences of them or loved ones that they have felt the need to withhold that blessing, that they wouldn't partake in the sins of those that asked for it. I agree also with that, that it seems that God's Word is so clear on this that I wonder, how is there now confusion?

that in the years that I've been to Sunday School and Confirmation, that there was never a doubt on these matters. And in my times of trial, when things have been heaviest, when I have doubted everything else maybe, I have never doubted

that the forgiveness of sins is still available for me. How could I have had strength to ask for it when I had sat there in the pew and the brothers preached, had been given strength to carry on for that day?

and even been given strength then to confess those matters that had weighed down and made the journey heavy and slow. This is a very serious matter before us. And if we have questions and doubts,

It is good that we bring them here and bring them up. And one thing also, that even if we have doubts and concerns about how matters were taken care of in the past, we know, or we can trust,

and have assurance. And because we see this white-robed throng of believers around us, that God has carried His kingdom through that forgiveness of sins. And though we each can have errors and doubts in that, those are corrected in His time. And that this is still God's kingdom that we are here in.

But that gospel is still preached to the poor. Isn't that God's kingdom? Isn't it only in God's kingdom that the gospel message is preached to the poor?

It is exactly that. The gospel is preached through the Lord. So if you pray for supper, you can trust in that and believe in that. Brothers, you can believe your sins and that was forgiven. Jesus' name impresses what all sins are forgiven. Jesus' name and what all sins are forgiven. It's a treasure. The treasure of God's kingdom is this matter of forgiveness. It's a great gift that God has given us.

Okay, we have a list. Those of us who continue to suffer, so I trust there are some reasons for coming back. So we can stand and sing our meal song. Okay, back at 630. Chop, chop.

have gathered here Thou dost provide our every need Lord bless the food we now receive Amen

Hark to this voice, forsake the world and rejoice. Your call to paradise be.

Okay, dear brothers, we have a full evening planned. So, in the beginning, we have Rick's turn to speak to begin with. I received a text message from Ken Goulet. And I'll simply read that. He says, Remember you brothers are at camp in prayer and wishing I could be there. Greetings of God's peace to all.

i told ken i'll give his greetings and then also from our brother rod nicola

I remember all of you who are gathered at the minister's camp, may God richly bless the camp, especially uplift and carry his weary workers. Please give my greetings of love and God's peace to everyone gathered there. So he's safely there on the other side of the ocean. And he is serviced right there. Sweet. So we remember, of course. So with that, Rick Delvaux.

Okay. Should we do it before or after?

So anyway, Rick, Joe, Bobby, Ray, Ron, Marcus, Walt, Yoko, Tom, Prophet, Nathan, Tim, Andy. So, brothers, if you can keep them.

concise, give everybody a chance to speak they would like to. So, Rick. First, I have to admit that sometimes when I take more of my time to speak, I have a fear that people think that I don't know at all or something and have answers to things. I thought about it this way that

Certainly the word Cokato used to always say, be as open as books. And through these discussions we've had over these last few months, I've tried to tell myself, just say what I think so everybody knows where I stand. And take care of me if that's necessary. A matter of forgiveness.

Whether it's unconditional or conditional, those types of questions, I never really thought about it in those terms before until the last few months when I had some people over and over again sending me texts and calling me and visiting and asking me what I thought. And

In one sense, I tried to answer it. I best saw what God's Word says. He brought up some examples of Saul and Samuel. And then with those answers, it just felt like all of a sudden I was placed in a different kind of a group where I'm one of those withholders.

I hope I've never seen that light. I've never thought ever when someone comes before me, for instance, in my mind, about that, okay, they're going to ask for forgiveness. Do I forgive them or don't I?

Our goal is to forgive, isn't it? In fact, my own personal experience has been the opposite, where I've had someone come to confess something, even grievous sins,

After a few moments when you know what they're saying, I said, you have to stop it. I know what you've got to do. You don't need to trouble yourself anymore. Just believe in the hospital. You don't need to confess everything like that to me. You've told me enough. I don't need to know every detail. Believe I've forgiven you.

On the other hand, there are those cases where, at least from the 70s and 80s, that was the case. And I thought, I wondered if I even dared to say this here. I haven't had a talk really about this. I haven't really thought about it, if I remember it now, in context with this.

about my own experience with my own father. I remember in Cokato, one service, after all those meetings, I don't know what those meetings were about, I don't remember them. I remember him. What do you mean?

dryness, dry spirit away, I want to believe. What were the fruits of that? In his life, I remember years later when I was off on my own, I lived out in the east. There were probably some years for me.

And I went home one weekend. And he followed me upstairs, and they went straight upstairs. And in my mind, all of these things go through your mind. You remember things. And I thought, oh, now he's going to come and tell me what for and why. And it was the exact opposite.

He said, well, poor father. But he liked to teach. Can I hear the gospel? And then he said, before [unintelligible]

Believe your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. Isn't that what we believe? We preach forgiveness. We preach this so openly. Many of you brothers have been on mission where I haven't. I don't know if it's ever remotely come to my mind that in those occasions I would not forgive someone. You preach the gospel in those services. In Jesus' name and blood, all sins are forgiven. You don't

positive, thankful, those kind of things. And it seems like in this discussion, if there is happening, anything that's bothering me is that that's almost been a little mark put there.

that I believe that withholding sins is possible. If I place this in the context of those meetings we had with Midwestern Area Boards, and one of the comments there that, on the surface, I agree with that. It's Jesus' words. If you don't forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you.

But how does that take place in our lives? How does that put into practice? And you can find Jesus' words again. One of our brothers already related that part. From Luke 17, the first how many verses, it says, that then said he unto the disciples, it's impossible, but that offenses will come.

But woe unto him through whom they come. And it were better for him that a dull stone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea than he should offend one of these lowlands. And then it says, take heed to yourselves. If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him not. So you have these, it's almost like a

a different look at things. These people that come to me for advice, they keep saying that you can't tell people their sins even. It came in this form that, say for instance, someone was in a heresy and

And they came to you and they asked for forgiveness, and you're not allowed to ask them. Do you want even heresy forgiven? That's apparently not acceptable. They have Jesus who words, he says, take heed to yourselves. Now I see here, I lost that spot here.

He says, take heed to yourselves. If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him. And it says, and if he repents, forgive him. If he doesn't repent, don't forgive him. I don't know how simpler it can be than that.

But Jesus even says the opposite. He says the difference. He trespassed against me seven times in a day, and seven times in a day he turns again and he's saying, I repent. Then forgive him. Isn't it the same discussion that we're having? The same exact discussion. And so many times it's the same result. The apostle said to the Lord to increase our faith. Increase our faith. That's my prayer, that God would increase even my faith.

Who's next? Okay, thank you, Rick. Next is Joel Qualen.

I just wanted to take a turn to speak. I know that you're encouraged to speak our own song. I have to admit that coming here I was a little bit concerned and lots of doubts and fears. It has been good to be here and hear the discussions. And I'll just back up briefly and I'll make it quick, but I wanted to

St. Myles and Solomon, and regarding the sermon at summer services even, I was there, I heard the sermon, and I was not offended there. But after hearing the discussion today, after hearing God's Spirit speak here, I can see the concerns and why it was removed and caused this kind of distraction.

And then also I just wanted to briefly speak about this matter of forgiveness. This forgiveness is unconditional, and I think that we all agree that this is the case. It is unconditional. But as has been clarified here, there are those situations where

As I mentioned in the example of a heretic, one who would not be believing, and we'll elaborate, I think we all know which situation I'm speaking of, that if they were not believing that we would teach that gospel as a way for them to receive forgiveness from us, to consider us as one when we're not, we're separate. And that has been my understanding on it as well. I just wanted to speak those thoughts and also that

we would continue to have this freedom that it would be our prayer that we would have this open discussion like this where we could visit as brothers where we could share in this precious word and we all know our own weakness failings are so close but yet when our source of power is God in the gospel then we can continue

Doing this work through obedience of faith and trusting in God. And for all of my own doubts and fears and worries, I would like to hear that gospel. Okay. Okay.

When this matter of forgiveness and this question of the words of Jesus says that, like for example in the 6th chapter of Matthew,

But if you forgive not many trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. And there isn't any other context around that particular portion.

And I thought that maybe looking at the portion from 18th chapter of Matthew, where Peter has asked Jesus, how shall my brother sin against me when I forgive him? Until seven times in Jesus' name, and I say not two, until seven times, but until seven times seven.

And so the question has come to Jesus of one who has recognized their faults and has come to put away their trespasses and is addressing in this situation the one who doesn't necessarily want to forgive as often as the trespasser wants to forgive.

And so then Jesus gives this parable of the kingdom of heaven where the servant owed much and was brought before the master and said he couldn't afford to pay. And he was...

That he was going to find some way to recoup his mother. That not only was the servant to be sold, but his wife and children and everything that he had, so that that payment could be made.

This servant fell down and begged for mercy and asked that I have patience with him and I will. And the Lord was moved with compassion and boosted and forgave him that day. Of course, we remember that from this same situation that this same servant had someone who owed him money and he went and

and took a hold of him by his throat and demanded his name. And now we have the same situation again. The one who pulled it fell down at his feet and he sobbed and asked for patience. Have patience with me and I will pay you.

But in this case, the first sermon would not give this mercy to him and instead cast him into prison. And so then after this, this one who was this unmerciful servant, we see that he was called again before his Lord because of his sin.

lack of compassion towards his fellow servant after he himself had paid off. And then this first sermon was delivered to his former cousin until he could pay it off.

And then Jesus again says, So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye fill your hearts, for yet not every one is but their trespasser. It gives some context to this same type of teaching from Jesus.

When pity has been granted, mercy has been offered, compassion has been given, death has been forgiven. And then in that instance, now as a forgiven debtor, a forgiven sinner, that we would not go to forgive someone else.

then that seems to me where these portions of this teaching are addressing and not necessarily a broader, everything that we forgive all. But it's difficult for the carnal mind to

to accept the teachings that we've heard even when we first brought up that portion 2 of the keys of running and releasing that it's stated that this is the way it is and yet we know that scriptures also have given us examples when God did not allow forgiveness to be

And it wasn't, like in the case of King Saul, it wasn't the prophet's decision, but it was God's decision to withhold that.

In this case of this parable, when we are forgiven, and then again when someone acknowledges their debt, acknowledges their sin, we forgive. We simply forgive.

We don't have to, in this case, it was that first sermon had a 10,000 talent test. And he didn't have to go and list even all of the things that were included in that test. But the message simply foregave the test. And that's what we have. We have that testimony with various combinations

All of the sins which we haven't been able to believe, forgive, and preach from God's foundation. We haven't had the list of all these. We couldn't list them all. And then God simply asks us, and Jesus teaches us that we've been in that condition when the brother comes.

And he has his, and he acknowledges his debts, and he wants mercy. He wants forgiveness. Okay. Ray, warning me, and then we'll go outside and see. You're around, right? Okay.

First, I'd like to encourage you to hear Brother Darwin. It was good in your last speech. It warmed my heart.

And I thought in this way, you know, that you said that even for those things that you don't understand, and that's good, and that's correct. We don't understand everything, and sometimes it's...

in time when these things are revealed. But also, you know, you spoke of this is the kingdom of God and that these are his brothers. I remember my father speaking of a situation where a well-known brother in Finland who was in the

in the work of God's kingdom, and the brothers cared for him on the matter. He didn't understand. But he trusted that those brothers were caring for him, and he trusted that it was his spirit. And he wanted to take care of his matters, and he did. And in time, I understand that that matter opened to him.

But it was trusting and obedience and relying on the guidance of the brothers in the kingdom of God and believing the gospel. And this is well and good.

On the matter of forgiveness, I was thinking about that meeting in Minneapolis and I thought in this way that I don't think there was any question on

withholding the gospel when we consider those matters of offenses between brethren as we've heard those scripture portions of our Lord Jesus that we preach the gospel

And even in those situations where we can become tired, for example, when someone may come with the same matter, we might experience that in our families.

We, even though we can tire and we can doubt and our minds can question, but as we've heard, we don't want to become the examiners of the heart, but we freely preach the gospel.

But also the gospel is grace and truth. And we try to encourage, after preaching forgiveness, help them with those struggles and battles that they may have. Because we need ourselves in our endeavor of faith.

So if there was anything that I thought on that that perhaps left this somewhat of a difference was this that has been spoken about and even withholding in those situations that have been described at this meeting also of someone who's in heresy and it's well known that

where they are and in those situations I think it has been revealed to those that they're not wanting to put away heresy but they want to join themselves in some ecumenical way or something like that to show that we're the same and the gospel has not been preached in those situations.

But I think that even if it happened that someone in heresy came and asked and we're not understanding their condition and we preach the gospel, we can simply discuss that matter too.

speak to them and they're happy to proclaim the gospel to release them from that theoretical spirit and welcome them into the kingdom of God so I

I thought that that difference, maybe at that meeting, was that I think that thought was expressed that, well, in that situation, we just preach the gospel and then let the gospel do its marvelous work.

And we know the gospel is all-powerful and marvelous. But I think as it's been brought out here, too, that this is a border of the kingdom issue and matter. And I think it's important that we're careful in that area because of that. And when we know that it's that kind of a situation,

has been expressed here that it seems that we can't preach the gospel in that situation.

Thank you, Ray. I would also encourage if there were individuals that had questions or concerns that they've heard that they would like to bring up, also feel free to do that. Maybe even if there's a question that someone would have, we could bring it up earlier, then others could have a possibility to comment on that as well. So feel free to do that. Wait two arms instead of just one arm.

So, Ross Simonson, sorry, and after Rob, the important slogan. Well, I'm glad you made that comment you just made. It's something that has been on my heart and mind for a long time. It's a matter of time.

And perhaps it ties in some way into this. But I'm 72 years old. And from a child, I have been taught to be patient.

And I won't even talk about that right now, but what I want to talk about is that we all, and we have talked about errors and problems of the 70s and 80s, and wrong care cases and

and demanding of repentance before the congregation and similar matters. But along with that, it seems to me that some

Thoughts on confession and what we ought to confess has changed from that to the result of some of those things that happened in the 70s and 80s to be different than what I heard.

And I guess I would like to have discussion or I'd like to hear from discussion about that amongst this group of brothers. I don't want to say any more than that. I'll have some kind of discussion on those matters. It may tie into these matters of the 70s and 80s.

Okay, well, it feels a little hard to know what the question is, Ron. I think you'd be free to speak. So my thoughts on what I've heard in the trial profession is that when the name says, that we wouldn't put them on.

And the understanding that I have in talking about these matters is that they don't really need to be put away by me.

that we hear the gospel and we have strength to believe that gospel, that we don't need to go any further, that we just keep our faith together. And I believe that is right according to the law. But what I have expressed in these matters is that it's very difficult for me as a person

to believe those sins forgiven over general blessing. Because those sins do nag at me when they make a choice. And it's been...

Expression, as I understood it, is forgiveness. If you can't believe those sins are forgiven, then you make confession. And my desire is not to make confession. I work with my heart and my conscience on those things. And...

I guess the thing that bothers me in this is that when the statement is made that somebody is strong enough, that they've got that much faith, that they can believe their sins are forgiven from a general perspective. Then the question I have is,

Is that strength of faith? Or is it something else that is breaking on this kind of thought that I'm surrounding the faith on since the beginning? And I don't want to make this into a work, but it has been something that has concerned me

And that has bothered me, and I just wanted to bring it out here to you, brothers, because all the answers are here, and I would like to hear some discussion. Okay. Okay, we can surely add that to the list, but I think in brief, just to bring the mic to Marcus, confession for me has been a great treasure.

God's given us a tool and a gift to use to be able to free my heart from sin. It's weak faith, I suppose, but I need that grace gift of confession. I hope to be able to use that gift until the day I die. Because it's important. It's been important for me. Maybe you brothers are stronger than I am.

I needed that gift. I treasure it mightily. Okay? But keep that in your mind for a little bit. This is about that, Marcus. Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men. But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this world, either in the world to come. What does it mean?

I think I'll pass that on to my fellow brothers from William Cripper, probably in Merced. I read the text at least decades ago. I think they have to have it or somebody read the text and then the other guy would explain.

I think it was probably this way, Marcus, that they read the text you wanted. Oh, okay, okay. They had a deal. I read that text right before supper just a couple of hours ago and asked the same thing as Marcus. What does that mean? Okay. So I won't penetrate it to explain because my understanding is very limited.

This is the same Jesus, Son of God, who also says, For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I think on the onset, just when I heard about some rumblings about forgiveness, my initial reaction, of course, all of this. But listening to, well, even before this camp, especially with this camp, as it expands, I really appreciated Russell's example and Jim's example with yesterday's camp and

Wayne spoke on another portion that our Savior spoke about, withholding. What does it mean? I have very little understanding. But it does seem to me that this kind of resounding keeps coming back to me from this very blessed discussion that we can have where we can learn.

And with regards to receiving children, or with regards to absolution, we preach, we preach, accept the gifts that God gives you. We preach, freely, freely forgive.

That is the mainstream and that is what our message and the goodness is. That's also the message that the LLC board seems to have and the ministers of our church. That is a very clear, clear-sounding message. But then at the same time, when it comes to pastorate,

when it comes to withholding forgiveness. I guess that what keeps coming to my mind is never say never, because you do not know other situations. And I guess with that simple, a simple lie, I think this discussion has refreshed my faith that we can stick to the simple message

And then understand that, well, there are situations where we don't really understand that we pray. Of course, we have all those people who are going through these difficulties. They are not trivial things. But it is...

some of an eye-opener to me to having this kind of discussions and especially the situation where a question is in getting the blessing into basically kind of an ecumenical hey let's get along every one of us I'll take your blessing as well because I'll take everyone every other church's blessing too can't be just I'll get along

I was once in that kind of a situation. Someone similar to Jill was in that yesterday with a nursing home. There was a cute grandma who had given me that seemed like she did not have that gift anymore. It did not seem like those foods were there.

But at the end of the service, I went and we sat and listened to the weather and how things are going. And at the end, I wanted to ask her, well, would you like to obey the past? Would you like to believe that your sins are forgiven? And I don't remember her by birth, but somewhat in this way. Well, I don't really need it, but you might as well.

So, I figured I might as well, and I preached. I preached to forgiveness of sins, but I could see

that in some situation, based on that minor experience that I had, especially in regards to more of a theoretical discussion, I could see that maybe there are times when that forgiveness is not granted at that time.

Yeah, I guess we've got a pretty clear instruction from the scriptures and from what we hear is that we preach the gospel and encourage to accept children. But we don't have a understanding of blanket answer for it because we don't have it.

You're free to go either way. It's your turn. Your name's on the list, so...

Okay. Remember, you have a forgiving brother here. Okay, so after wall, the Yolo, Tom, Robin, Nathan, the 50, the constructive, the truth, the faith, the faith in the gospel, the heretics, the faith, other heresies,

[medical details omitted] The first thing she said was, would you class? And I said, yes, I would. And I said, look at all of your sensors today.

But including that he was a sinner, a Pharisee, a false spirit, and that when she said, you know, I perfectly understood that person, and over that, well, who's this other one?

So I went to sit with her and she was back to her work. The line of thought was that kingdom of God wasn't that small down by her thinking. So fast forward quite a few years to the end of her life.

[medical details omitted] How do you know?

But what happened, so we went to visit her. [medical details omitted] My sister. And so when you speak, try to speak Finnish to her. I tried it, there was zero response.

And so I asked my wife, she said, whatever, why don't you try to say something to her. She was really like that. She said her name was Grandma. And she would put her on the audience.

And she [medical details omitted]. And he basically asked her, does she want to believe that she wants to bless her? And she said that he asked. And so he did. And he expressed her joy and patience.

And then she went back, it didn't matter, whatever it was, [medical details omitted] days. Point being, there was a little bit like the people had promised, you know. There was, we didn't need to get into any more clarification. We could just face God and go with it.

Let's believe in God's hands, but you know, some of these situations are always just so clear. No, no, no, that's for sure. We have to revise our spirit. Yoko and Tom Proffitt.

Dear brothers, I feel that I have to speak, I have to speak up, because my name has been mentioned in this connection that I have around the topic of preaching the gospel.

And this is a very important and thoughtful question. Many have said how they are troubled in coming here. That's unique in the history of Christianity. It means it's a time of battle. And we don't battle against one another. It's spiritual battle.

I am not in the war path against any prophet. Not even those who have said with my name openly that they don't believe in my God. As if it were fine. The way that I believe.

We have two different situations. We talk about the penitent sinner and impenitent sinner. And I think it's very important that we make this difference. I've heard so much talk about penitent sinners that we ought to forgive. And many examples

And I agree. There's no question of that. And I think it has been a good discussion. It has reinforced our conviction that the penitent sinners, they need the gospel. The poor, the gospel is preached. But that is not the whole picture. And that troubles me.

Because if we only speak to the penitent sinner, we forget the other part. And although it's so rare that most of us have never experienced that, I try to think if I ever went in a situation, I'm not quite sure.

And many trusted brothers that I've talked to, but have been preaching for 50 years, maybe have experienced once or twice or three times in their lives. So it's so rare that I understand if some brothers, younger brothers, have said that these are hypothetical situations.

They have not been hypothetical, but they are so rare that they have happened just a few times for the brothers that have been experienced by them. So we talk about a very rare situation, very unhappy situation, but very important.

There has been 100 little kids that the gospel can never be withheld, even when there is an impenitent sinner in prayer. And I think our discussion this far has shown that most of us believe that way. I don't think I've heard anybody speak different, which kind of surprises me.

Because this discussion has taken place, I understand, because there is another opinion. So where is this another opinion now disappearing? I have not asked this question.

I remember vaguely being called this Friday the 11th, every month meeting, when this question was made, and I kind of wondered, oh, great question, and tried to answer it as best as I could. Shortly, hearing that I take too much time at the week's meeting, being a real philosopher, dear brother, and I need to take as much time from the others.

But then it means that the answer is to the point, or frankly, to the point. And then maybe the answer gave the impression that, oh, I just wait for the time when we can pull this off. That's that.

I don't, I can't recall that I've ever been in a situation where I have not been able to teach that. I can't recall, at least. And so, I have to say that this review or accusation has been hard for me.

I have felt that I have been treated unfairly. I don't know what kind of rumors are going around. How well-minded and heavy-handed and what not I am. And I can't help it. I...

I asked, as many of you know, in Finland, to speak with me. At this time, there were 750 minutes of prayer. Yet, maybe five or six brothers spoke with me.

None of them said, or anybody else said that that was a strange question. The odd question that, are you law-minded, or are you willing to withhold the gospel? But they spoke of their experience. What was the question, George? The question was that the gospel is the treasure of God's people. That's the power of God. And it's our joy and pleasure and happy task to preach the gospel of God.

After saying this, can there be a situation when the gospel has been asked, but can not be preached? Can? And if there is, what kind of could the situation be? And what Bible portion would support us in this? And the brother spoke. He spoke up.

And the term that I heard twice in the discussion, which I had heard before, but it's so describing. They used to work feeding through the fence. If we are in the sheepfold, and we feed through the fence, where does the food go? It goes outside. We cannot feed those who are outside.

We cannot feed through the fence. They must come in on this. But we are fooled as the part of the son we found in the foreign land. And if we start feeding through the fence, the brothers said that we lose our salvation.

And that's the point. That's why it is so important. I have used, in the discussions, the portions of the sermon that Arvo Perala kept in 1957, after small firstborn heresy, and in the midst of the battles, in the midst of it.

And I haven't picked you kind of indirectly of this. There has been a statement of concerns about Harba Perah. I heard about that. And it has to be trusted brothers. Eight years old and so on. Four brothers and I talked and they said, we've never heard about that.

So I don't know what kind of concerns there were with Arvo Perada, which these contemporaries are not aware, who were very centrally involved in SRK work. Arvo Perada was an SRK board member for 20-some years.

And he explained, like our Lord explained in the Minneapolis church, that why the wise virgins could not give thee oil. And we have to remember, it's not a question of oil, or always oil. It's a question of the Holy Spirit.

Why they were not able to bless those wise virgins? They said, we will lose our salvation. That's what they said. There's not enough for us. We will lose our own salvation if we fall into spiritual temptation. Don't we all believe that if somebody falls into fleshly adultery and dies there,

The person won't make a difference. Spiritual fornication is equally dangerous. It's just the opposite side of the road. It's not a light matter. It's not a small matter if we speak about spiritual fornication.

I have heard speeches of four types of soil, that we sow the seed in all kinds of soils. Yes, we do. But have you thought that there are two kinds of seed? There's good seed, and there are tares. But the enemy sows the tares. Good seed grows the fruit.

And then that seed grows pears. And Jesus said, let them grow until the harvest time. Then they will be plowed up.

So it seems that the Bible states at the last times in three parables, ten virgins, wise and foolish mingled together in tares, both tares and wheat grew in the same field. In the parable of the net, both living and dead fish were in the same net.

Then it may be that the last times of the world will be lived in that kind of a situation, where two groups mingle together. Keep yourselves clean, says the Bible. Yeah, dear brothers, be free. It's a matter of personal salvation, but also the salvation of children of God.

Can I read from Galatians 1.68, and that's my last. I marvel that ye are so soon bemoaned from him that's called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel, which is not another, but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

But though we, who are faithful to heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let it be. Okay, thank you. The top prophet, the faithful one, it's a mystery.

I'm going to be here with the brothers this year. The last six days go out. I'm going to be back in a minute. I'm going to be back in a minute. I'm going to be back in a minute.

So, I think what is the message is true of what is happening. I know that in our congregation we struggle very much with the territories and with a very confusing time. We don't always know who the enemy is.

And I think there was that fear there for a while that he was less than what he was once, but it went into heresy and he carried it over again into maybe withholding forgiveness. And we had many meetings and many struggles in the late 70s.

And I remember discussing one time with Ray Niskanen, and I was telling him about my problem, and he told me that first you've got to take care of your own matter, and the other is to take care of yourself. I couldn't quite understand it at first, but then after talking to him for a while, I realized that my result was different. And I was in need of forgiveness.

So when we find out that we ourselves are sinners, then we really forgive us. Because we know how much forgiveness we have needed. So, and sometimes it says that,

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Okay. Okay.

It's been good to be here, to be together, to speak with one another. It's always good to learn and learn.

hear and understand and believe and feel the Holy Spirit leading, guiding, speaking, teaching us. And I understand that the

The heart and mind of a believer is always a gift. That's a good foundation on which to believe. But I have seen in my own life, with fathers,

Relatives in the East Coast, they would so, so much want us to greet them and bless them and be part of their faith and their, just accept each other for who we are and often said many times that how can we just accept each other and live together in peace and harmony.

But that familiar portion, which was mentioned even in last Friday's meeting, about being unequally yoked, pertained to this, I believe it does. And Paul says, Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers? For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?

And what communion hath light with darkness? And what thunder hath Christ with glad? For what part hath He that believeth with the infidel? And so, to me, it's so simple. Of course we want forgiveness. That is the goal. But how can we forgive an unfulfilled one?

And the Holy Spirit teaches. We don't have to draw rules, make rules, or say, let's basically do this, let's basically do that. And probably, as we heard, it never may happen in our life that we would have to hold together.

But we've heard today, and even last week, a variety of examples of times when forgiveness has been withheld. And my spirit has said, Amen. And so, I so want to... I want to know and I want to believe

And I would want to be comforted and assured that we are of one mind in this. And I know that, right? I've needed this forgiveness so much. I never would want to look over it. For all of my sins that I have been forgiven, all of them, I've never had a problem reaching the gospel in the past.

And, you know, never soon. God has never tested my faith to have such anger or grudge toward somebody that I have been able to give such a blessing to. Indeed, in that state in life, that is not going to end it to this day. I pray that it never will be open in the life that I'm going to live.

But my soul, but, and I know I'm not patient, I'm impatient, but I would want to know, is it so that we are not like this? Is it a matter that we're on the rise of compassion? What is it? It's such an idea. Do you really want to put things in this way, that we should just break them and bring them from the pulpit as sufficient?

There is a power in the gospel that speaks to you from the cross. No question about that. The grace and privilege of confession is so great. But it's not. But it's useful. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Okay, to Michigan, behind you there on the back row. And Andy Forsey's next in the Barrow Lake. We're getting down to the first bottom of the list, brother, so keep that good. It has certainly been good to be here with your brothers. It's been a few years since I've been participating in a speaker's camp. And I have to say, my heart has been filled with great joy.

With the much discussion, we heard our brother already relate of that proud of the son who received the grace of repentance. He was penitent. He was seeking God's kingdom.

And we know that he was forgiven. He was forgiven much. He had lived a life of faith and sin. And he was able to receive that gift of living faith that was pulled or washed from his local land. But we also remember the other brother

who became offended at what had happened who had made mention of all his sins and he was offended that this was not for him and not for him because he thought he had never loved

And yet, we know Jesus earlier said that, Likewise, as I am to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner, and repentance. Jesus began his ministry with these words, Repent, and follow the gospel.

Likewise, we also preach the same. We are asking that people repent from their sins, their lifestyle, and all manner of evil, and believe that gospel which is the far salvation to those that believe. I, myself,

Okay, Andy Forsyth, you're on the line. Okay.

I noted a few of my thoughts here on the topics that we discussed today. And I guess the first topic I'll talk to is that understanding a portion of the book of Corinthians.

And it would be, I guess maybe I'd bring up a concern that I have or I've had. That concern is that to me I have not heard that there is a common understanding across science. I either heard that here today at this camp that there are still some small differences in understanding.

I've also heard that same thought in personal discussions that I've had since the summer services. And there in Monticello, shortly after the summer services, the local speakers, we sat down and they were, I guess you could say, briefed on the situation, those of us who went to the services anyways. And we did have some discussion on it.

And one of the elder members of our congregation just wandered over and sat down and enjoyed the discussion. And the comment that he made is stuck with me still today, and I believe it's the proper comment. And his comment was simply this, that the understanding will come from the congregation of God. I take that to mean that the understanding may not

be known in the small groups that have discussed it so far. Certainly, I myself would not have a perfect or even a small understanding of this portion of Scripture. But we all know it's being discussed broadly in God's kingdom across Zion. And

I think the answer will come from God's congregation. We don't know at what point, we don't know when God's time is that understanding won't be revealed, even if it would be in our lifetimes. But I think as speakers, we need to listen to what God's congregation has to speak about this matter. And perhaps I would...

myself know exactly how to approach it, but maybe even encourage discussion on this within our congregations so that we could hear what the congregations do have to say on their understanding of this portion as well. And then our brother John had mentioned a word, babe, that was a part of his text that

was made, that the exact question is not known. And that really came close to me because

you know, right or wrong. I've had that thought as well as other parts of Scripture. One example I thought of was that example in the Old Testament where Moses had said, Joshua, so the men had to battle Amalek there. And how...

You know, when he held up his hands, they would win the battle, but when he began to tire, his hands would fall, and he would begin to lose that battle. So Aaron and Hur helped Moses hold his hands up. The Bible doesn't say if Moses asked for help or Aaron and Hur offered help.

So I've even spoken in such a way that I believe that portion of the Bible is made by design because we know in life that we run into bold situations where one sees someone he'd tell him would offer him and the other side he would tell him he would need to ask for help. And I've had this same thought that this portion of Corinthians

You know, as we all know, the question he was answering is not known. But there are some details that are not known in that particular portion of Scripture. And I feel that is my design. I don't have the answer tonight why that would be left out. But I do think, or at least as I sit here tonight, I believe part of the understanding is in fakeness.

And I say that so if my understanding is incorrect, I can be corrected. And then on this matter of forgiveness, when I first heard of this topic, I thought of our fellow travelers there in Africa. They saw how important this matter of forgiveness was, and I believe they even named the church that it's the Church of Forgiveness of Sins.

I was not part of the discussions. I didn't even know what the exact questions around forgiveness were. So without having really any knowledge of the situation, in my mind, I could not come up with a situation where one could not preach forgiveness.

And when I considered that thought, a couple portions of scripture that came to my mind were on that first Good Friday where Jesus had this type of a thought or I would say this type of a prayer that

The Father forgave them for they know not what they do. Here a perfect teacher had that type of a heart that his prayer to the Heavenly Father that he would forgive his ones that were really crucifying him.

And then the other part of Scripture I considered was the Apostle Paul when Ananias was asked to go and meet with him, that he really was reluctant to even go and speak to Paul, knowing how much harm Paul had done to the believers. Paul himself believed at one point that his persecution was such that he led people to blasphemy.

But after I've heard this discussion here today, I would have to say and agree that there would be situations

where we would not preach the gospel. I know it's a fine distinction, but I still think in those situations we would offer the gospel for the condition. And I believe the situations that at least have been presented here tonight, that that has been the case. I think Russell even said that. The example he gave where that one asked, could you bless me?

And the instruction given was that if your desire is to be forgiven for your condition, then yes, the forgiveness is available. So the gospel was offered, but it was actually refused there by the three Simeons.

But to me, that brings comfort, that the question is not whether or not we offer the gospel. The gospel is available to all mankind, and it should be offered in all situations. But it would be important that, as others have spoken, that it would be offered for the condition of the heart of that person. And I think that, to me, that...

It makes it a little easier for me to understand and accept that there would be a situation where the gospel would not be preached. That was all I had noted here. Like others have spoken, it's been very good to be here.

I came here with many of my own doubts, my own fears, certainly my own pride. I would ask that I have my sense of doubt. Okay. Darrell Lake, Brigham Goldblatt, Roger Claude, John Stewart, Ron Simonson. Ron. Oh, good. It's a J. We got one.

It's been good to hear the discussion and I would say myself that I have agreed to what I have heard that we need and we

I've heard a number of times the unconditional message, and then in the situation where someone may be coming with a condition that we've heard the same message that we can offer, but with the truth, too. Brother or sister, are you an unbeliever or are you in heresy? Could you like that forgiven? And I've agreed with that. And so...

I was visiting briefly with Jim here, Jurmu before, and I thought, well, it seems like from what I've heard, I would say I have agreed with what I've heard here. And I don't, I haven't [unintelligible]. And then I began to wonder how these,

discussions get going and I wondered back to that time when Keith presented that topic and it was in reference to those spiritual battles of the past and then was it later that when some of the Bible portions

came that did, was there a perception then that that, those texts were back to that time and not of a situation such as different and then people throughout, you know, obviously over some time this discussion has gone on and gotten different perceptions of what someone else has been thinking and

I'm not sure on that, but I represent myself in this way.

I kind of had that discussion with Jim and it was like, yeah, it seems like there's speeches, and I'm agreeing with speeches, and where's the difference? And did it start back in that, where there was different perceptions of what this was about? Is that how this then over some time took place? I'm not sure.

But I want to assure you, brothers, that I believe the way the message is spoken here, and that this is the most important topic that we have. And so, again, for that message that it brings, I would like you to be refreshed again in my own weak and struggling faith. Can you bless me one more time, brother? Thank you, sir.

Okay. Mayor Popo. Roger Palmer. John Stewart.

First of all, it's good to be here. I've enjoyed all the discussions. I've been kind of watching the windows, even though it's getting dark, I'm going to head back to Brainerd here shortly. So that's what I was kind of hoping for, to get to the end of the discussion. First of all, Darwin, I heard your disturbance at the summer services, and I heard it again on the archives, before it was taken off.

And it would have been a very good one to have at a couples camp or some situation where it could have been discussed further. And as far as being taken off of the meth or off of the archives, I could see where they...

where the watchman of Zion saw the danger and this was first revealed by the Holy Spirit that if there were some weak ones who were fighting these kind of temptations then the enemy would not be given added fuel for it to attack

And so, there again, those who, the LLC members who took this off of the archives, again, were doing the work of God's kingdom, for which we can thank.

And then as far as what Ray was talking about, his experience that his dad was telling him about a caretaking in Finland, I believe it was, that could have been here in this country. Because this happened to me. One time, I was, seems to be,

led by a wrong spirit, as Abraham was here that year, and John, God revealed unto me not that not where my fault was, but that the brothers who were friends were right.

And God gave me the power to believe since forgiveness. It wasn't until the next day that I understood what the problem was. So sometimes this is revealed. And then one other situation.

When I think of forgiveness, I remember one time, quite a few years ago, when a young brother came up to me and he had some sin on his conscience and he said, I'm supposed to go talk to my parents about this and I can't do it. I said, you don't have to talk to me. You can hear me.

His justice for Christ himself beautifully extends to him. So he believed that gospel preached in the name of the Lord Jesus and soon, immediately after that, he was found his parents. With the power of the gospel, he was able to take care of the matters. And then when we think of the forgiveness,

All the discussions about the forgiveness have been precious discussions here. First of all, we know that forgiveness does not have a limit. We know that forgiveness is always a thing that we think about.

But we also remember what John writes when he says, and that part which we always hear during communion, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And also, when we think of how Luther explains repentance, he said repentance is of three parts. One, that we acknowledge our sins. Two, that we receive that gospel. And three, that we believe that gospel unto our own heart. Now, as somebody in a heretic doctrine, heretic spirit,

They will not confess to sin. They will not confess that they are in that wrong spirit. And in that case, they are not receptive of that gospel. That gospel is free for them if they would follow what

but John writes and he writes according to the word of God as we have heard that all scripture is given by holy men of God as holy ghost and so if they would confess their sins there would be forgiveness forgiveness is never withheld from penitent sinners

And so those were the comments that I would have had on my mind. And other than that, I ask that you would remember me, Ivan, in your prayers. And also, as I leave now for prayer, I ask that I can hear that gospel.

Maybe Jim Frantti would like to have a few comments, some thoughts. It's quarter after. We'll see how long Jim wants to filibuster here. He had a few thoughts he'd like to share before others start to leave for home. So we'll see where that goes.

These other speaking terms either be foregoed until the morning, or we can continue on how we've run this through. Anyway, Jim.

Yeah, I'm not trying to usurp anybody's speaking courage here, but I know that we have some brothers who have to leave yet this evening. And I thought before we lose any of those who have been here with us last evening and today, it would be good to just share some thoughts about these topics that we have discussed.

As you brothers know, last evening I shared what was on my heart on many of these topics, and now today I'm going to sit here and listen. I have to say that I have enjoyed and really been thankful for the discussions that we have had today. I have felt that we have heard God's Spirit speak.

through many different brothers, many kids. God's Spirit has spoken to each one of us. And it feels like, for example, on this matter of abstinence and birth control that we discussed so long, I don't know how all of you brothers feel, but to me it feels like these things have been clearly explained. God's Spirit has spoken about them to us.

And, you know, on all of these topics that we've discussed and we've heard the voice of the Spirit here today, I think that what's important for each of us is that we have been able to have open ears and hearts to what God's Spirit has taught. Because, you know, if

God's Spirit teaches and gives correct understanding, but each of us in our own hearts have a different way of thinking, and if we think we're going to hold to our own way of thinking, and I say this to myself now, that then I want to remember what the Bible says. Let him that thinks that he stands, take heed, lest he fall.

We don't stand alone. We need each other. And we need God's kingdom. It's not important that I be right on things. It's important that I remain in the care of the kingdom. And I feel like God's spirit has so lovingly and clearly spoken on these matters, for example, of abstinence and birth control. My feeling is one of unity, that we understand each other.

And I think it's very important, dear brothers, when we talk about birth control clearly as sick, that this same message is also brought to our congregations. Because it is an area in which the enemy is trying to work.

And there are so many of these young couples that the enemy is trying to battle against and they need to hear the sermon of faith that we have heard here today. The encouragement to trust in God.

And it would be also so comforting for them to hear that we brothers believe the same way, that God spoke to us here through His Spirit and that we are united in our understanding. You know, the question of that Corinthians text, I feel like we have heard an explanation of it here today.

As it relates even to these matters of abstinence and birth control. And it feels like God's Spirit has taught us about it. So I personally don't feel that there's a need to ask the question back in our congregations, but rather to share the answer that we have heard here.

That, you know, God has spoken to us about this and it's important that our teaching brings unity. The discussions today, dear brothers, have been to me so encouraging.

And I wanted to say, especially on our earlier discussion today, when so many of you spoke encouraging words to the board, LLC board, and health providers who served on our office staff, those words are so uplifting. Welcome to here.

I have sat at so many meetings with these brothers and I can tell you that at those meetings we have had grace beggars. We have needed that. It has been our source of strength not only to believe but to continue to do the work.

And, you know, because those brothers who serve, they feel their weakness and they're also human in flesh and blood. And when criticisms or attacks are directed that feel very personal and they even sometimes feel a little bit unfair because they portray some of the understandings of these brothers in a wrong way, it's very difficult to serve. It becomes such a burden.

So your supportive comments today, I don't think you can understand how much they mean. And I want to, on behalf of the brothers who serve, thank you for them. We need your support. We aren't there serving because we won an election campaign. We're there because God, through his kingdom, asked us to serve and we couldn't say no. That's the reason you're serving also.

So I just wanted to express that appreciation and I ask that you please continue to carry us in your prayers. We need your prayers and God hears them. On this matter of forgiveness that we've been discussing, I also feel that we've heard clear instruction. God's Spirit has spoken.

You know, it seems clear, and I feel like we have a general understanding, at least amongst those who have spoken here today, that our first and foremost duty is to preach the gospel. That's what we want to do, preach the gospel, forgive. But we can't make such a blanket statement that it can never happen that God does not allow the gospel to be preached.

But we know that those instances would be so rare. And as we've heard, maybe for some of us, never happened in our life. But it still doesn't say that it cannot happen. And we've heard examples that it can.

And I wonder a little bit why is there this kind of demanding question that we have to make a blanket statement that never ever can the gospel be asked that God's children do not preach it.

How do we know that? How can we tie God's hands? God knows the hearts. God controls our mouths. You remember when Zachariah had trouble believing the message of the angel that Elizabeth was going to have a child. Well, then God took away his speech until it happened. And then he was able to speak again. God can close the mouth of his children.

And we can't anticipate when or why or how, and it doesn't really pay for us to do that. I say here that let's take the simple path and trust in God and His Spirit to guide in those things. And you know, if there are circumstances,

We've heard some circumstances where brothers were in a position that maybe it's not so easy to know. Then if we're going to err, let's err on the side of preaching the gospel. You know, that's the safest thing. Because we don't know people's hearts and we shouldn't try to search them. So let's err on the side of preaching the gospel.

One of the things I'm worried about when I wonder why is this issue so big now and why is it spread all over? I have thought that one thing that has happened is that somehow the understandings of some brothers have been misportrayed or quoted wrongly.

And I mentioned last night the rumor mill does that. And I think that it has been somehow said that, you know, at this meeting, this brother said this, and here's how they understand forgiveness, that it can be withheld. They didn't say that. Their words were misconstrued. And so it feels like, dear brothers, when we leave from this weekend, and we've heard this clear message about forgiveness,

Let's bring that clear message back to our congregation. Let's bring it to those who are so troubled. Why is this a question? Is the teaching in God's kingdom changed? It hasn't changed. Have you heard different instruction here this weekend than how you have believed?

It hasn't been that way for me, but I've heard you brothers say today as answer to my heart, and I have come to some of you individually to thank you for your words because they were so good for me to hear. So it feels like this matter has become so big because of these wrong misquoting of different brothers and their understanding.

And then finally, I just say that we've also heard about, from some of your speeches, for example, when we talked about this matter of abstinence and childbearing. Many of you brothers have spoken about some of the difficulties or struggles that you have faced in your life.

it's been good that you've been able to share those because those are also constructive for us but they made me think that you know some of what we've talked about today has been i suppose in some ways not so easy to to discuss

And many of you shared how you came here with some worries or fears or doubts or misgivings. And maybe even during our discussions sometimes you have wondered why this topic and why must we visit about these issues that might have a little bit of a negative side to them.

Dear brothers, we came here to be refreshed. I don't want that any of us would end today feeling burdened or shouting or struggling. And when I personally have felt so much how God has spoken to us today through many different gifts, I have to say that it has taken away my doubts and fears and worries.

And I have been able to find in your speeches that God still guides. His spirit is still in our midst. He is still leading us. And I have thought that of that quote from Paul's letter to the Romans that if God is for us, then who can be against us?

So I wanted, before any of you brothers leave, to just share some of these thoughts and hope that we can, whenever we depart from here, whether it's this evening or tomorrow, that we can all bring back a good report on our time together and our discussion.

Remember how the psalmist wrote, how good it is, how pleasant for brethren to dwell together in you. And I have come here with the prayer knowing that what we were going to discuss, that when we leave from this camp, we leave with it on these matters.

and for myself, especially the prayer that I could be in that unity with you, Brian. And I ask for your prayers that God would keep me as a humble child of this kingdom. May I even now appear brother to God. I want to believe that you

In Jesus' name we pledge all sins. In Jesus' name we pledge all sins. In Jesus' name we pledge all sins. In Jesus' name we pledge all sins. In Jesus' name we pledge all sins. In Jesus' name we pledge all sins.

Let's not, dear brothers, forget the joy of belief and even the joy in serving. When we can serve together, united, and supporting each other, there is joy in serving.

And I want to leave this camp with that joy. And I do feel, after having been able to sit and listen to your speeches today, that I say a special word to you young brothers who have spoken. I have so appreciated

Your openness to speak up here, say what's on your heart, and your speech is the answer to my spirit. And so for me, it means there's this great hope of the future of the world when God continues to give the discernment, the right heart and mind discernment. And then my last quick comment, I just don't want Ron's question to get left without saying something on that.

Lose your thought that confession is a great gift. And let us not ever lose that gift. It is important that we encourage and speak about this. Confession isn't a word for forgiveness.

And there have been times when there have been those who made confession a work and even talked about things like the need for public confession for this matter or that. And we don't want to begin to put that kind of demanding instruction on confession.

but rather we want to teach about it as a gift of God that is intended to help us keep faith and a good conscience and continue on the journey to heaven. And so it's good that we speak about this grace privilege that we have to freely unburden ourselves of sin.

Okay, I'll end it there. It's been very good to be here. As many of you have said, I don't want to give up. I'll be here. Just trusting that God will give unity to this family.

I've come so many times before with such, left with such an unfeeling adaptation of this thing. But after being here and listening to it,

But on this question of forgiveness, it's not exactly the same thought or situation, perhaps, but it's a recall that when I had served at the summer services in Cokato [unintelligible], and one of my [unintelligible]. That was a good moment. And he came to a service. I should have said amen to you.

And I had much trepidation in point of the moment at that time. God gave words to speak and he came and visited me afterwards. And the first thing he said to me and to every other person I came up to during the discussion was, I want to say God's peace to you, but no, I know you can't say that to me.

And then he also invited us. He and whoever came to be there. I don't know if they were going to take services or whatever the next weekend. And I thought that I never even would have considered going.

But in such a situation, was he looking for my approval? If I was with him, what would I be saying? So it's not like forgiveness, but at the same time, my going in association of that invitation of him wanting to be accepted. He told me after the services that night that I would be possible.

And so we can't just, we can't just, it's not forgiveness, but it's, you know, even that association is acceptable. They're understanding. And, uh, there's another thought that I wanted to make. Okay, all right. The other thing I was thinking of is one of the, um,

Questions along the lines of . There is a suggestion to speak at some of the services on familiar lines.

And that somehow erected thoughts. You know, when I put that mic up, it's hard to hear back. Okay. Someone was putting up orchestration, however the words were. And I would say that, on my own self, that receiving those productions was very comforting.

That we don't want to go off into areas that we don't understand. Pray that God would give us a text that we can speak to and are familiar with. I thought that was very good instruction.

When I have had questions at different times and have spoken to the LLC office, I have very lovingly been instructed and have very much appreciated the instruction I have received.

But yet, I would do it all myself. It is so good to be here in Haibu. God has spoken precious to us today. And yet, I simply all my self.

Okay, there's four names on the list. You guys want to finish them up tonight or first thing in the morning, Johnny? Okay, John was next. He's support. Was that Ron Simonson? Okay, there's Ron, Ron Holga, and Jim Jurmu. Tomorrow?

I won't take much time, but there was a question . I just wanted to answer in the way that I've understood it. First of all, a person who can't blaspheme against the Holy Spirit at one time .

And then an example that was expressed at one time, a long time ago, about what was constituted blasphemy, that there was a believing minister with a son who went into unbelief. And he, making fun of the officer,

took a calf and he baptized that calf and he said this is what my father did and that was explained as being a blasphemy against God and the other thing that I've heard about this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is that those who have done that

are not even given the grace to, again, even ask to hear that gospel of forgiveness. But as far as the LLC goes, I think you brothers know that I have supported you, but I want to hear

David, from Paul, that I appreciate the work that you brothers have done. And I know that you have done it with sincerity and heart. And hoping that what you have been doing has been that which God has wanted you to do. So I just want to give that praise to you. I also want to ask you that...

I don't know what he's talking about.

I was struggling all day with my own thoughts. And I hope that when we depart tomorrow, tonight, whenever, that we have 88 brothers at heart. I guess the thing that really has been weighing in my heart for a long time

is because of this warfare that we've built in our area here. And now that Bill and Darwin have been here, I'm sure the message they bring back to the Wolfpack congregation will be one of love, peace, and community. The thing that

we know is that it has not only affected our area here in northern Minnesota, but as many of you have said, that there has been discussions throughout society, and maybe even in Finland, I think somebody said, about some of these questions. My wife and I have a daughter and son.

Today's beautiful grandchildren of Teddy who holds that congregation. And I, I can only just imagine that Darwin probably knows this and feels this. But there has been a lot of problems and confusion and questions within your congregation there at Wolf Day.

and maybe even some of the things that have been said, whatever. I haven't been at your meetings, so you know yourself. And if one has one has said things against the LLC brothers or against

somebody that may be like Yolo, that was brought up today. These are matters that need to be heard. And Darwin, may God lead you in your communication knowledge, David Shepherd, to clarify these matters with your congregation members.

So that they also have a chance to put their matters to work. And other congregations where these confusing thoughts may have reached. That all of us brothers can go back and try and help our congregation members understand these.

And like he said, he said, more having done like that for a while, I want to be free. I want all of those dear brothers and sisters who are in the Wolf Lake congregation to be in heaven with all of us. The business is done through the forgiveness of sin.

but we can put sin away. We trust in the God who will guide.

Well, brothers, we've come to another end of the day. Link? Can I take a turn before tomorrow? Yep. I don't know. I'll have a break to speak tomorrow, so...

What's being said, some of these issues have not only affected the local area, but have spread to other areas. The devil has not been able to be patient.

In my coming here, this has been very good to be here. My heart is saying amen. My spirit is saying amen to what has been said. But even in other areas, in Seattle, for example, there's those discussions that have taken place, mother to mother, sister to sister.

And even this week, before I came, I had a call from a brother that said, hey, can we discuss this? Before you go back, can we discuss this issue of forgiveness? But one of the things that struck me as we began this discussion this afternoon

And I would say that the context that, as that rumor goes around and these things go around, that the context of the discussion is lost. And even the way that devil works is that you hear these things and you begin to wonder that, where is this coming from? Where is it coming from?

Where does this come from? I'd like to even maybe come back to last summer. When I first heard that sermon, I was on a business trip. I was back in Tennessee. When I heard that, my heart said, Amen. I did it.

And I listened to it a couple of times, and then I stopped. I said, why am I being so critical if you can listen to me again? But then we came to ask, or we came to Stoney for a second confirmation cabin to visit at Darwin's, and we spoke. And I didn't hear anything different when we spoke.

But everywhere, even in this, everywhere we visited this permit came up and other issues. So I was, finally I went to the LLC office and I spoke with Eric and Andy and I think Adrian was there.

And even this portion that was discussed earlier about the examples, I told my psalm then to Eric and Randy that I didn't even hear that, even after listening to all the thoughts. That, to me, I didn't even hear that portion of that example. And then,

With regards to this topic of forgiveness, I will say amen to everything that's been said. And this day, a couple of weeks ago, there was a rebate at the greater court, the funeral. That very day, I went home, I had

I was looking for, I was trying to find a sermon that once had spoken. I found one. We began this morning with a devotion from Zachariah. There's another part here that I, two verses I'd like to read.

It was from this sermon that I had recently listened to a few times, that point that was spoken on in the second chapter. I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, a man with a measured line in his hand. And I said, Whither goest thou? And he said to me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what the breadth thereof and what is the length thereof.

And behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him. And he said, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited. This town is without walls, but the multitude of men have got all their heads.

For I say that the Lord will be unto her a wall of light around the world, and will be glory in the midst of her. I thought then about this measuring line, this Bruce line.

Even this verse where this other angel came and ran to give this message and how it feels to me that even some of these discussions

that we've had here now that it feels like we need to run and go back and discuss with those brothers that we have talked about these things. We believe the same. And that message is the same message. But going back to the beginning where that devil works in slow and patient ways

that even when these things I came here with, with many, with much trepidation and anxiety over, that was, on the one hand, wanting to come, and on the other hand, with these fears that I believed in,

Before I leave tonight, I'd like to ask all of you brothers that, can I receive that message of forgiveness of sins? Yes.

Following up like a bird.

Here comes one verse, you probably know the follow-up verse, okay? In 1 Peter 5. And this is just picking up on what Jim said. Let me go home from here. What do we do? How do we handle this matter? It says here, Be the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly, not for guilty lucre, but of a ready mind. What does it say after that? Oh, here it is. Laughter

It says, neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. We have a duty when we come here, not to go back and ask a question and say, what do each of you think about these issues, but to help understand these issues from what we have heard. This is the congregation of God right here.

Thank you, sir. He's leaving, so we'll give him one. He does want one. We'll give him one over.

Messiah, chapter 12, verse 2. Behold, God is my salvation. I will trust and not be afraid. This theme, and worse, I want to welcome all of you to our summer services. This theme that

We have chosen for our services this family. We can prepare, trust, and be with all of you. So welcome, dear brothers and sisters. Remember, we are willingly serving you. So take your families and come together. Enjoy. There, together with us.

God's peace. We will leave this coming night for Europe. We will talk to you sometime. Amen. Okay. Thank you. Dear brothers from Toronto, great greetings. We'll wait for those summer services right around the corner.

Okay, any more burning dust? I can't wait for tomorrow. It shouldn't have ever happened. Wow.

7.4. I'm going there pretty soon. Okay, well, I don't have any concluding thoughts, brothers and sisters.

Go to your night's rest. Jesus, name of God, all sinners. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God. Jesus, name of God.

Can I also give you that gospel? I want to read to you. Let's close in prayer. Holy and righteous God, beloved Heavenly Father,

We begin this day with thankful hearts and also hearts of prayer that you would bless our day together. And you, dear Father, faithful Father, hear our prayers. You have blessed and granted us your grace and goodness on this day. You have also remembered our loved ones at home and protected them in their place of worship.

This also, dear Father, we thank you. We pray, dear Father, for your continued blessing. Send those heavenly angels to protect us through the night. And if a new day would dawn, we would be granted grace again to believe.

It is according to your goodness, your loving hand, that we are your home. For this, we humbly thank you, your Father. Bless our, bless the day, the hours, and the time we have left together, that we would be comforted and strengthened on our journey homeward. Let's all join together in the words of benediction.

The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and his face shine upon us. The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Well, on our schedule now, hopefully, I'm not sure if anyone put the saunas on or not, but I guess that can get done yet if it hasn't been. There's refreshments now, and time for just visiting more. Tomorrow breakfast is at 8 o'clock, 8 to 9, will be served.

And then we have a camp cleanup at 9 o'clock. And I was thinking that if we would plan on doing the camp cleanup before coming here, we could just all gather here at 9.30 for the open forum. So as far as camp cleanup goes, it's simply the dorms.

God we love His Son, such love among the children, that hearts are knit as one. One among us here for sin,

of Zion.

As we begin our new day of grace, let us join our hearts and thoughts in thanksgiving and prayer. Our dear Heavenly Father, this morning our hearts rise in prayer and praise to Thee that Thou hast been good and faithful

and has blessed our camp, blessed our discussions, even speaking about sensitive matters and questions that pertain to our endeavor of faith and the service of each one of us. Dear Father, we thank you for this openness, freedom to speak our hearts and minds, and above all for this

that we can hear the gospel over our many faults and sins. Dear Father, thank you for this, that you have loved us and sent your only Son to suffer and die for our sins and arise victorious for our righteousness' sake.

Keep this focus above all else in our minds that we are personally acceptable to you by your grace and mercy towards us sinners. Bless our discussion of our last day of camp with the same mind and heart that we have heard yesterday. Help us

Help us to freely share and to speak of even those things that aren't always easy to speak of. Be with us, dear Father, today. We are brothers, sinners, but yet all fellow servants, serving as minor shepherds

gathering the flock to the chief shepherd, the Lord Jesus. Bless our day. Let's say the Lord's Prayer all together. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses,

as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen. Dear brothers, we're going to continue our discussions.

from yesterday, Randy Barilla is going to moderate. I want to just make a few comments that don't pertain to yesterday's discussion, but which have been, there's been a question that has come up and also some practical things and a couple of other items as well.

First of all,

We, as brothers, have lots of access to lots of resources, resources on the Internet, resources with unbelieving theologians, different translations of Scripture, and so forth. And I would just like to make a couple of comments about that. First of all, the Bible Translation Committee that's been working on

trying to decide or evaluate translations and be able to identify maybe two or three translations

and identify the characteristics of each translation, what the translation philosophy and approach was. That's kind of what we're working on, but we haven't been working on it lately. It's been on the shelf. And so that's still the same plan is to continue with that goal of being able to give you information about different Bible translations for your use.

that study, they're not trying to change the church Bible from the King James Version.

You know, you've seen the writings about that. I won't explain that any further. The work will continue and you will hear more about it. Then also, I know sometimes we use commentaries that unbelieving theologians may have written about a particular portion of Bible history or even a text.

I would say that it's important that we use those, and I think we all agree, that we read them with discernment and don't get on some particular writer's commentaries as understanding of God's kingdom. Be very careful with that in reading and studying and above all else.

God's word is our main authority for faith and life, and let's remember to keep it that way. But then in sermons, I would say to be very careful about how you refer to some of these things.

Even in quoting other Bible translations, when we haven't yet finished this Bible translation project, hopefully we'll be able to, when we get further along, we'll be able to help.

in how to use these other translations. But at this point, I would say that it feels uncomfortable to some believers if we say, well, in the ESV it says this, or in the MKBG, whatever it is, it says this, and so forth. And so let's be careful about that. And I think that it doesn't mean that you can't

explain what it says in another translation. I'd prefer at this point that we take more of the approach of paraphrasing, that in more contemporary language, this says this. If we could read this as this, as opposed to directly quoting in sermons from another Bible translation.

It's a sensitive issue, believe me, and the older generation in particular was gone through battles. This was an issue at the time of the heresy. Wrong understandings on both sides of the Bible translation matter. And I don't want to use a lot of time on that, but just be sensitive. Remember, we're serving the congregation. We can help to explain God's Word by explaining it in other words.

that serves the congregation, but it doesn't serve the congregation if we make a statement from another Bible translation that then raises the question of Bible translation in the congregate's mind.

So let's be careful with that. And then, likewise with commentaries, you know, it's probably best not to, but I would definitely feel it's best not to quote an unbelieving theologian directly. I don't mean that you can't use an idea that applies and that's consistent with God's Word. But if we, in our sermons, say, well, in Matthew Henry's commentary, it says this.

It doesn't feel good, even though it's not wrong to study like that, but preferably to simply say that in considering and researching this text, there's this aspect of it, or however we say it, but I don't think it's beneficial, it's edifying to start talking about commentaries or those kinds of resources.

And there'd be a lot we could discuss, and my words are weak here. But I'm trying to move through these items so we can save the time for discussion. Then, in our sermons, often we are using analogies or short anecdotes about something that hopefully helps to explain the Bible text.

But there's a fine line here, brothers. Our sermons aren't, we're not going to preach sermons to tell stories and get away from explaining God's word. Stories have their point. If they serve the text and if they

Real life example serves to explain the text, but there's a need to be careful with that. And we're not looking to be out there as some notable speaker and someone that is known for our stories or known for that kind of thing. But hopefully we're known for explaining the text and preaching what God's word has to say with the Spirit.

gifts of gifts to us at that particular time.

And then a question has come up not so long ago about suicide. And say, it's a sensitive issue to try to talk about briefly, but if we consider the fact that someone who has been believing, has been confessing faith, and would take their own life,

Those are questions that we get them. Well, were they saved? Were they not saved? And I think that it's best that we don't go there. That we leave that in the hands of God and don't begin to, of course it's wrong, it's sin,

to take one's own life, but when someone is seriously mentally ill and hardly in control of their mental faculties, those situations get so complicated and so difficult that, brothers, it's better to comfort those that are left behind

help them to leave it in the hands of God and not begin to make statements or judgments about their soul salvation. And brothers can add on to that if I'm unclear in the discussion.

Then the last item that I wanted to speak about was divorce and remarriage. Not in the same, in a little different context than what Jim has spoken last Friday night and Friday day. I fully agree with that, but this is on a little different angle. That we get into difficult, or we encounter difficult situations

as pastors, where the marriage of someone, a believing couple, becomes so complicated that maybe mental health issues and maybe recklessness in a person's life and all manner of very complicated issues that come into play. For example, the husband might be off the deep end and spending money and taking the resources of

or the family, and no. Then you get the question asked, was it acceptable to divorce?

And I would say be very careful as a speaker and speaker's wife that we don't, in coffee table discussions, start taking positions on these and saying that it is or it isn't or debating, but they're very sensitive issues to deal with and it's very important that we, as pastors,

consult one another and remain in the truth of the scripture that divorce is contrary to God's will it's sin and we cannot condone divorce

But these situations get so complicated, and when we know each other so well in God's kingdom, these can become the discussion at the coffee table at church or in business, and we have to be careful that our words or our wives' words aren't used in the wrong way.

And again, there'd be much to discuss on that, but just wanted to point that out. So then we will continue with yesterday's discussion and feel free to add and correct what I've said. Add to it, brothers, if there's something on these items that needs further clarification.

We have to remember when we serve others that it's not for our own honor. And if we need correction and if we need someone to adjust what we say to better fit, it all serves together for the one self-seeing spirit. So let's have that in mind that we want to hear the voice of the spirit here collectively and that we

we can hear when brothers take even a different position than what we might have, that we discuss it together and God's Spirit will reveal to us. And so I've appreciated that kind of openness that we've had here and I think it's very important that we continue that.

But I just want to say before turning this over to Randy, that it was so good last night to be able to visit together with Brothers Darwin and Phil before they left, and of course with other brothers, but how good it was to raise and preach the gospel.

and forget that which is behind and move forward. And it felt so good. They're dear brothers to me. If they haven't been through all of this, then they're much more dear to me. And so, but in the midst of all this, I know it's shown on my face.

And my tears that are close to the surface that warn all this heavily that I don't want. Sympathy or empathy for that, that's my struggle that I have, and it's not something that...

I won't go there anyway, but it's my own struggle that I have. But, you know, I've often been dry and worse and weak in dealing with these things. I wanted to do what's right. You know, I mean, maybe I can try this and ask, can I plead my sins for Jesus?

Let's pray. Prayers to your brothers. Prayers to your family.

As we begin our discussion this morning, you'll notice that since I'm moderating, I'll take a turn to speak. Here in the beginning, I want to share Keith's thoughts that left here last evening with a happy, joyful heart, and woke that way this morning also.

forward to yet more time to visit. And several brothers have, not only in our visits openly, but personally, expressed words of encouragement to me and to the brothers who have served in the work of the LLC and in the office. And it's meant so much to feel your personal support. I wanted to thank you.

There were a few things that I was reflecting on yesterday and late last night and again this morning. Maybe I'll share a few of those thoughts as you're getting your thoughts together for our discussion. There are a few names that are on the list from yesterday and have been mentioned here this morning. So...

Maybe in the beginning I'll just share with you what I shared with brothers when we had our LLC board meeting a week ago. It goes to this thought of how we've had this kind of discussion here.

And it's felt so good that we have brothers and sisters in our congregations who are in distress over the matters, and they haven't been able to have this discussion and be a part of it. And so what can we do as servants of the Word when we go home and to help?

Brother Russell yesterday, in our opening devotions, spoke from Zechariah and even commented there, our task is to stop the plague, how we need to stand as watchmen on the walls of Zion. I appreciated that reminder and want to take it to heart.

But I mentioned when we went to our meeting a week ago Friday in Minneapolis, I was going with so many worries. My phone rang and it was a text. A text came from one of my daughters.

And it's not an unfamiliar situation, I know, to two brothers either, [family details omitted]

And so, of course, I think, how can I help support not only my own family, but brothers and sisters? And she's the one that said this.

going to that meeting a week ago, she says, remember you, dear dad, and all you dear brothers, as you meet around God's word, prayers are being said to God's peace. And yesterday, she was so much in my mind that late in the afternoon when I sent her a message,

that I was remembering her. I said, dear daughter, I'm thinking of you, a busy mother to whom God has given many blessings. I hope your day has gone well. We have 88 of our 114 ministers here this weekend, and God is blessing our discussions. And she says,

Thank you, Dad. It's one of the ways to receive your message. I know that count is going well. And so, you know, in simple ways, we can send that message to our brothers and sisters to comfort them and encourage them. How will that help? I think it can measure really well.

So we talked about childbearing and abstinence, and we heard many examples of brothers who spoke of their own life's experiences, and we heard the testimonies of faith in approaching those challenging times in life.

Clearly spoke how birth control is sin. Abstinence isn't a form of birth control either. And when we do speak of abstinence, we want to speak with great caution. And in this way that those who are going through those difficult times

life's situations, could keep faith and a good conscience as they make the decisions that they need to make.

In another portion, we spoke about a sermon, summer services sermon, and a sermon on the archives. And here, our brother Phil, you know, and some Arizona brothers already needed to leave. But I would just mention one of his comments was a question about a committee to review sermons.

And I think that was answered by Brother Jim yesterday. But I wanted to comment also because I'm not sure if perhaps in my personal visiting with others I've sent a maybe wrong message.

on that. I'm not aware of any practice, LLC or congregation-wise, that has had a body in place to review a service. And I agree with the thought that I would feel very reluctant to try to do that. But what I have felt and said is that

it's good when we are webcasting and archiving sermons, that we think of a way to handle questions if it arises. And that not only trusted brothers are asked to, are directed with that kind of a question, but also that our congregations know that if there is a question,

they could direct it there and we can easily handle it that way and I think more than one person for sure needs to be part of that because it can be really subjective. No one of us would want to handle that alone. So if that adds any clarity, I just wanted to explain my thoughts about that.

We spoke about the effect of the sermon, and it's been a powerful lesson, I think, to me, to all of us, to realize the soberness of serving and to pray that, again, as we serve, we'll be building and uniting for the congregation.

and then when we hear these questions and I think we can't just stop and say that someone heard it wrong of course we're human we can't

we can misunderstand words. And hopefully there's personal visit being that can clarify those things. And that we'd be quick to do that. But also realize that the Spirit can also speak in these ways when a question is about a sermon or a service. It is...

coming forth that there was a situation in Finland fairly recently where there was, who had been serving was now taken down from that office and the whole congregation. It was the unrest around these sermons that precipitated that kind of question. And saying that here, but I'm saying that's where we need to be open and listen to the congregation.

when there's unrest in question. And then we also spoke yesterday about sentiments that occurred against LLC, LLC Brothers in Work, and also Wolf Lake Brothers and Wolf Lake Congregation. And again, I stay to, I remember,

When I was asked here many years ago to serve as a role of chairman of LCL, it happened to be that my brother, Monty Lacker, who then was a Psyche chairman, was present. And he came to me with a piece of advice. And he said, listen with a sensitive ear.

listen with sensitive ear and also in this way to put the best construction on that which can i feel that based on things that i've heard directly and indirectly about meetings that have taken place i

I'm concerned about what people are thinking and hearing, because if I'm hearing something different than what I was feeling and left with at these meetings. And so I say even now, brothers, if you have thoughts, questions about what I've done or what I've said, or other LLC brothers, what have they done, what have they said, because you've heard them, ask us.

And let's clarify what was the matter, what was happening, and put things in the right context.

One thing that has been nice about all of our visits is we've been able to freely speak without fear and I felt that and I still feel that. It's been a blessing that even when we have to discuss differences we still

and happy for that. But we did hear a comment from Bill. Again, I say he spoke openly here. One thought he had was, has this been a matter of old personalities that have contributed?

Well, I guess I say all the brothers who have been involved in these things. I haven't personally felt it's that way, but I guess I realize that's the kind of thing that probably one doesn't see in themselves. But I felt that it's not been a matter of personalities, but rather differences of understanding that needed to be discussed.

So we heard this comment that one brother used in terms of spirit of opposition in the speech yesterday. And again, I don't think, we're not feeling it here. We've had such nice discussions and speakers and feeling united. But just a few days ago, a young sister told me

of a conversation that she had with another sister who had a conversation with another sister. So I realized, you know, I don't want to go too far down that path of she said, she said, she said. But the conversation was with a sister and she was very, very troubled because the sister told her that LLC is

that it's too tight on these matters, that they're too tight, they're law-minded, and I believe in the same way that, and she mentioned the name of an LLC brother, I mean, a Wolf Lake brother who's not here today, has to be a part of this. But she said, I believe the same way as he does.

Again, it goes to this matter of, in some way, it feels like mine's being drawn. I've been really troubled to hear that and say, oh, these are the kinds of conversations that are happening out there among our brothers and sisters in faith. And again, say, oh, can I help these matters?

When we spoke in the evening and later today about the matter of forgiveness, I think it was very clear that we wanted to really preach to the penitent.

When one isn't penitent, we allow the spirit to reveal what's the right care. Love breath is the right love for such a one. After our Friday nights meeting a week ago, I guess sometimes it can be more visiting and discussion. Sometimes it could even be the church love of Christ. But God will reveal the care that's needed for one who might be tempted even to use

the gospel as a book for who sinned, or who was in a wrong spirit, a heresy.

But in speaking of these matters, in these scripture portions, and I know that the parable of ten virgins has been spoken of a lot, not so much in our broad meeting today, but I mean this weekend, but in personal visiting and visits prior to this, and it to us become kind of a point of difference. How do we understand it? Is it absolute? How is it understood? And

And so this morning, on this matter, forgiveness was my thought, and several of us brothers had a chance to visit also. And we felt that one thing we should come back to today, to get follow-up from yesterday, is all these comments about a wrong teaching, a wrong doctrine.

having been present when it comes to the matter of forgiveness and the issue that has happened in the discussion. And so now with that, I'd like to ask our brother John if he would speak to that question following up on the visit we had earlier this morning.

Ron has a mic. Can we bring it to John? Or does John want to forward it? John Stewart. Okay. Yeah, you broke it. Okay.

I elected to forego my term last evening, and it didn't feel so good there at the end of the conclusion that our brother in front, Keith, as well, kind of summed it up for Kale. I'm sorry, Reino Cuopola had to leave. And I'll have to say, I really was heartbroken by the discussion. How it ended in the evening, it was...

I felt like, hey, I can't ask for this. But I also have to say that during the course of the day, I think many times, you probably did the same thing. I looked around the room to be discussed. And I thought, these are my brothers.

It's so heartwarming and comforting to feel the unity. And yes, when we ended this evening last evening, I felt the same way. These are my brothers. Sometimes we wonder, you know, why are these suffering? Because, you know, we do in battles. We always have. Not just us, but those that have gone before.

Even the Old Testament was talking about those early church fathers. They battled. And they were major doctrinal battles.

And when we think about, for example, the issues that we talked about, we consider what they went through. Paul, Apostle Paul, not Paul, but Apostle Paul, had to deal with those kinds of issues in many, many early congregations. In Rome, there was no difference. Specifically, these issues that...

The Constitution, what they did in those connotations. Think of Rome, for example. You have such a mixed population of pagans and these former people that were Jewish. They had their own ideas and Paul made clear that those issues that they dealt with

Where this nature that you mentioned in the 16th chapter of Romans, yesterday came to my mind as we discussed these. And so we think of ourselves dealing with these issues which we have here in all forms and forms in our religion. So blessed in our time to be able to gather like this. Paul wrote this way to them.

He said, mark them which cause division and offenses. It's not something that our flesh and blood can break through, but we're constrained to do so. The cause of offense is contrary to the doctrine which we have been taught.

Paul also continued this way in that same passage, which happens to be the 16th chapter beginning with the 17th verse, but he said, it doesn't serve our Lord Jesus when these kinds of divisions come. But he also mentioned this, and I thought so much about the whole congregation.

Our dear parishioners or whatever you want to call us, our congregation members, leave separate. We sit this way with good words and fair speeches. It's so easy to deceive the hearts of us and vote. We think about this.

is a matter. It is that which divides the flock. A doctrinal issue it is. There are a lot of weak words, but that's not the root of these kinds of issues. For example, the matter that we talked about is forgiveness of sins. It's a doctrinal issue.

And isn't it important? We feel this humanly. We've experienced it here. When we go back to our congregation members, Bill and Ray Vaughn, who we've served together with us. My brother and I work in the Vineyard there in Seattle. The words can explain to our congregation members the same thing that we've been able to experience.

But we want to be able to pray that God will allow us the words to come to you, God. It matters that we can be correct.

I felt so happy, you know, with the team that they were creating. I'm glad we got them. Thank God. We will. We have to do it. We can work there and do it on the congregation. Maybe you and Bill have an especially difficult task. I don't know. Be honest with me.

And if you, I know, will be able to explain to them, they can do it. And I also, before I pass this mic on, I want to speak about a song a little bit. I want to ask you, my brothers and sisters, to forgive me for expressing my impatience.

I should have done this in the beginning. I'll do it now. I'm going to read the names that are on the list.

Since some are very overs, feel free to still want to speak or want to speak, but do it in a different order. So note that, we'll get going here on that. But I have Jim Jurmu, Pete Lieber, Brian Johnson, Dan Rintemachy, Eric Matilla, Jim Frantti, and Ray Mackey at this point. Thank you.

First of all, I just wanted to, Andy Forstie had to leave this morning, so he was on his way, and he wanted me to just relate to his comments last evening. Andy had spoken here in our group about encouraging us to go home to our congregations and visit about these matters and see what the congregations say.

And a few of us were able to visit with Andy individually last night, but Andy's of this mind that he believes the congregation is here. And he has no need to go home and ask the congregation there in Monticello what they think of all these things. And even he heard those words that Wayne shared in the evening that we would speak how we believe and so on and so on.

And just wanted to make sure that nothing was left here on his part that his understanding of the congregation of God is also present here. I also want to speak to this.

question that was on my mind especially last evening and then because it got late I left my thoughts until today and there have been some additional thoughts that have struck me this morning and I want to share them. This last week I was together with my wife visiting an unhelpful

We hadn't gone there to visit about the things that we had been discussing in the meetings we'd been having. And it was a young couple and I thought, well, in some ways, you know, this couple's been insulated or they wouldn't know these matters. So we got there with the thought that we wouldn't talk about these questions and concerns that I shared so closely with my wife and with you brothers in our meetings.

And I also hadn't had much courage and did not speak up at the Minneapolis meeting, also wishing to hear what the others there would have to say. And I wanted to say that I'm not hiding my thoughts in any way. I wanted to be open and free, that I've also been concerned and troubled through some of our meetings. But when we were visiting with that young couple,

discussion as it often does now in the time that we are living perfectly and then young couples first spoke to us in this way that in our area and I'm not speaking of one specific congregation but in our area in southern Minnesota there have been some strong

Boys, women, amongst the young women who have openly said that we will no longer have children. And they wanted to teach the other young women that the teaching in God's congregation has been too narrow.

And when the other women have fearfully tried to speak up, they have felt that they have not been able to speak and confess their faith. So this was the first good matter that the couple wished to speak with us because they are also tempted. But they believe. And they don't want to listen to the teaching of the enemy of souls.

And they wanted us to know that they needed courage. Because the world tells them they're foolish, and their doctors sometimes tell them that there's another way. And now, amongst some that are traveling in God's kingdom, there's a different sermon, not a sermon of faith. So they wanted to avert themselves.

And they wanted to speak to those matters that are troubling them. And then the man spoke up and he said, concerning these meetings that have been taking place, and I haven't shared with you about these meetings, he said that some of his family lives in our area and some of his family lives in another area of the country.

And he said he doesn't know why, but he's so worried about his family members.

He said the reason he's worried is because it seems that they have a different mindset or a different speech to somehow correct. And he's not sure what they need to correct. But he wanted prayers on behalf of his family members because it seemed that they weren't in the unity.

So I wanted to share these for this reason that we each have a place that we can call to serve in God's kingdom and we've been able to visit here and I'm sure you brothers together with me have felt the encouragement and I have felt that the Spirit has been present here and I have felt so much in the unity with God's congregation.

And I still have this thought that I want to really mention. Also that this couple spoke and they said that there have been also a few that have spoken of personal faith. And they said that faith is so personal that you cannot tell me and no one can tell me how I ought to believe.

And I asked them, how do you understand personal faith? And they answered the same way I understand. That I cannot believe for you, you cannot believe for me, but we believe in the unity of God.

of the Holy Spirit. How the Spirit teaches in the congregation, and we hear the teaching of the Spirit when two brothers and sisters visit together, when the servant of the Lord speaks or the Bible class teacher teaches,

And when the congregation discusses the way of the journey, we hear the voice of the Holy Spirit, and we want to be personal faith to them as being in unity with what is spoken. And I told them I believe the same way.

So I wanted to also share that with you. And then the words of God that have been in my mind this morning since I woke up are from the 1 Corinthians 12 chapter. And it's quite long and Paul writes about the different parts of the body. Of the foot and the eye and how all are necessary. But I want to begin with the

22nd verse, and it says, Nay, much more those members of the body which seem to be more evil are necessary. For those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor, and our uncomely hearts have more abundant comeliness.

Dear brothers,

When I heard even some of you brothers yesterday who were able to say that there seems to be and there is a different doctrine and there has been a different doctrine, I also feel the same way.

when there have been concerns from across the country of what some family members have said, or some of our brothers and sisters in our local areas have said that it's personal faith that you wouldn't be able to say to me how I might believe. And that's such a misunderstanding of what personal faith is. And when we've even visited about the matter of forgiveness,

The matter of forgiveness, as we heard yesterday, I felt so encouraged that even though I am not so wise, I can believe that those of you who spoke yesterday. That we preach forgiveness of sins in the name of the blood of Jesus. And we neither can join into a false spirit.

And then also I ask for my own life paid with death. I have also felt in our discussions the fear of my own flesh, that now with it being left behind, I want to be part of this kingdom, but many doubts and fears have come my way.

And I also want to encourage that there's other understandings that haven't been shared here. Dear brothers, if you have a thought, there's been so much freedom here, please speak up.

And I mean this only in a great amount of love, but dear brother John, I haven't seen you yet this morning, but you are here. In some of our meetings, and I'm not talking about meetings between the LLC and the Wolf Lake Brothers, but I'm talking about in congregation settings,

And even at our midnight meetings, sometimes you've taken a difference to what some of the other brothers have spoken. And if you still have those thoughts, or whatever your thoughts, please, please share them with us. Because I love you, I care for you, and sometimes I felt that maybe we don't see things or understand things the same. And I don't hope this week that I have a chance to.

about you personally but i even feel now that i i would want to in a loving way ask you that are you also of my mind or do you still wish to visit about some of those questions that you've raised in other meetings and then i ask that you your brothers remember god willing i'll need to

on Wednesday and I go as a sinful man I wish to go and serve God's children there and proclaim the gospel and I need your prayers and I wish to bring your greetings and also care for my family here

You'll be remembered. We'll be with you on the trip. So we have now the next three names on the list are Pete Lieber, Brian Johnson, and Dan Vitoracchi.

I agree.

Yeah, I have to say, this has been said countless times already, it's been really good to be here. I've needed to be here. And I told my wife before I left, I said, this camp and this be here is a wise camp. Two favorite camps of the year. And I said, but this time,

I don't really want to go. And send me off with love. I'm so happy that I've been here to hear these speeches and examples of God's Word that have been referred to so many times. And I thought this weekend and even this morning especially that

It's not impossible for me to put into words the joy that I've felt, the happiness that's been in my heart to be here. This freedom that, it's not the right word to use, but it's been unbelievable that here 88 brothers, escorts, helpers, servants,

And I think often of my two local brothers escorts for me. I know the boys are very often, but they're so dear to me.

We need each other. We can't travel alone. And this bond that we have, there are words for that either. And we can help each other. And we need to remember and think of each other. But also I thought this weekend of something that's very important for us to do.

in our lives, in our congregations, as speakers, as board members, as LLC board members, is to look at ourselves first. Examine ourselves and have that prayer that God would give us

the correct understanding according to His Word. Because we aren't going to find it with our own wisdom and our own wiseness that God would give it to us. And that even if, as each of us have experienced countless times in our lives, we don't understand something. But we want to, as we've heard already this morning, listen to what the Spirit says in the congregation.

We don't want to travel alone or be on that edge. Or let alone have somebody follow us. Follow us like they did in Corinth. You know, we know that. We've heard it a hundred times. I am of Paul, I am of Apollos. That troubled Paul so much. We shudder at the thought that somebody would follow us. And...

If they would, tell them, don't follow me. Don't follow me at all. But I have now, before Marty and John and Paul and I leave here in just a few minutes.

Even though it gets real hard for me to sit for many hours, from what I've heard, I can sit here for some days as long as I can get up once in a while. It's been so uplifting and so heartwarming and felt so good.

But yet, I have to say what's been in my heart and on my mind since last summer when I first heard of these issues and understandings and stuff. It's the same part of the Bible that comes to my mind every time since last July when I first heard of these. And as what Paul said,

27. Now I beseech you, brother, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, that there be no divisions among you.

but that you'd be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. Isn't this your prayer? That yes, we don't understand or see everything even right now. And I agree with the brothers that have spoken. It's really important that we leave from here in prayer that God would give us words, not every detail,

But go back to our home congregation, because this has spread far and wide. And I also feel it's not a matter of personalities. It's not a matter of weak words. Of course we have different personalities. Of course sometimes we feel like we're opposing magnets.

But dear brothers, what's been here, there's been a spirit of unity and this bond of peace. And the only way that God has given us to clear the air is to speak.

We have to speak. We can't keep it quiet. Do you have a choice? You're speakers before the congregation. There are many board members. They don't have that option to sit there and keep quiet. If I had what my flesh wants me to do, I'd be sitting in that pew, slink down, as slow as I could, and just listen. That's what my flesh wants me to do.

We can't be at our meetings or gatherings. And of course, when there's 80 people there, we all don't get a turn. And that's fine. We don't all need to have a turn. But there are times where we have to speak, even when our week works. So before we depart, I ask for your prayers that I can return home and share the joy of this meeting and

I also, most importantly, ask that I can hear my sins forgiven right now. And I want to leave you, I can say, here, Brother Darwin and Phil, I haven't known you in about four years.

But you're my brothers. You're in my heart as every other brother is here. And I love you. I hope you feel the same for me.

Just a quick note before we go to the next speaking turn, which will be Brian Johnson. The word from the kitchen is that any of you who need to leave early, who want to have lunch, have to take with you something to go. They're willing to do that. So you can just mention down there if you need a brown bag lunch, and they'll have something for you.

Greetings from Ecuador. A month ago, this time, Brother Pete and I were there serving together along with Jessica. And those believers asked, they're greetings, and they're thankfulness to the believers in North America for all that we have done in their lives.

We heard a piece of evidence about doctrine, about the needs of Christian doctrine, number one, which states, to know God and His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, is the way to save you.

To become a child of God is the most precious matter in our lives. This is the lesson that Pete started out in Ecuador when we had congregation there. And that has taught another one. We as ministers want to defend the true Christian doctrine of Christ and learn from that. And how can we become and stay as a Christian?

together that you've heard the word of the Lord in the gospel, in your sins.

Last night, I had peace. It was joyful to sit there with the guards and learn that God can heal himself on the Lord through his word and his spirit and through his creation. It was terrible. So was I. Even after we were done, there was still caretaking going on with the dead. Peace. And I woke up this morning. I looked at the lake. It was so calm.

There's goodness. God will be with us. And then there will be bad situations. God signs the rebelling congregation. God is with us. And when I came thanks to the folks this morning, I said,

I'm going to be there at the gathering tonight. You made it. Well, yesterday's meeting on God and the silver plates. One of the folks said, you know, let me hear you get some pieces. You know, let me hear you do one. So I'm going to reassure you that I'm here for you. But the brother is not there to hear you.

I was just thinking here, just to open, Brother Jim mentioned John by name.

And John has asked for a turn to speak. We have quite a long list of names, and all the list is important, but if brothers would be okay, it would be nice to give John a chance to speak early on here. But go ahead, Dan, and maybe we can take John after that, if that's okay, and then we'll continue with the list.

It has been heartwarming to hear the testimonies of all the speeches here. My whole heart has been warped. And I thought apart from

Second Corinthians 13 chapter where the apostle says, examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves, knowing not your own selves, all that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates.

And I've often thought of this short text that how good it is that when we are at an assembly such as we are here, that you hear all the speeches, that you can sigh in the heart and say, Amen. It's so good beyond words.

So that's what I have fallen here, of what it is to hear those speeches, and especially from many of our new young servants. It has really been precious. And then, it feels as though, before I would leave here, I want to read a few verses from Philippians, that would be the third chapter.

Apostle says, Brethren, I thought not myself to have apprehended, but this one thing I knew, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

I press for the mark for the five columns of God in Christ Jesus. And then, let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded. And if anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. We have a...

A faithful Heavenly Father, an apostle says, God is faithful. And if we would begin to stray in some different way in our thoughts and our understandings,

How good it is that we can trust and believe that when we visit the issues of this most precious matter, our soul's salvation, we can believe in full confidence of faith that God has not left even the weakest and smallest and poorest one without approaching it with love and offering grace and forgiveness.

So I feel from the depths of my heart that I might be in my words and I just would like to leave all you dear brothers with this prayer of faith that God will continue to bless the work of his people, give you encouragement and strength and what is needed to do this precious work, remembering always that it is his work.

And so I'll close by asking my eyes still to be my own. Very awesome. Okay. Thank you, Dan. So we'll have John left the line. Next speech that we have on the list is Eric.

First of all, I've enjoyed being here. I've enjoyed the discussions, and especially around this topic of forgiveness and the many speeches regarding that, and that this is a kingdom of grace and forgiveness, and we always preach the gospel when a penitent sinner asks for the gospel. And when I said...

in some situations that never is there a time. As we heard in several speeches yesterday, I was thinking just in my mind, if someone would, another brother or sister would come and ask for another, or for the gospel that,

In my mind, I couldn't find a situation where, why wouldn't we? And just as on the April 8th meeting, Jim Frantti recapped it at the end, and he said that in this way that we always forgive, and then if we're guided by the Holy Spirit in some unique way,

surprising, unforeseen situation, then the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us in that situation. So I wasn't even thinking in my mind discussions with some inherency.

When I was doing my studies for my master's thesis in gathering materials, I had to visit many different heretics' homes in the Cucado region. And I remember going to Kingston and I went to visit with one of the ministers and he was more quiet. He offered some historical information, but the wife was more outspoken.

And she said, which is the doctrine of the Kirkukunda, she said that it's basically all roads lead to Rome. She says, why do there have to be these divisions and fences that we're going to all be in the same heaven? Of course, I couldn't accept that. And she was with tears explaining that. But I had to keep a sober stand and keep the lines clear and direct.

And so I just basically wrote down my information and listened to what she said. And I've often, or not often, sometimes I've gone into the large Firstborn Heresy Church in order to buy some of their Lestatius Apostles, which they have translated into English, and they have this.

this practice that as soon as you step in the door, then they say, God's peace. Well, of course, I cannot respond to that greeting. So I just say, say hello. And last summer, I went with my brother-in-law to visit a home, which is an old family friend of my parents. And he was with us until about 1974. And he came out on the doorstep and said,

to welcome us in, and he said, God's peace right away. And of course, I just didn't say anything. I just kept quiet. And so I could not respond to him with that as accepting his doctrine. So that is kind of illustrating the same notion and idea that we wouldn't want to bless a person into their false peace and false doctrine.

Recently, [a family friend's] wife passed away, and he called me many times during her last week, week and a half of life, and he called me once. I don't know how he got through. He called me on FaceTime when I was down in Mexico, and he said, my wife is in the hospital. I would like you to go to visit with her. And I said, well, I'm a long ways away from home. I won't be back for another week.

And so then he said that a minister from the Torola heresy went to visit with her and they had offered her communion and she accepted that communion. She had no longer gone to the Torola Church. She had gone with Grace Apostles and so on and so forth. But anyways, I then contacted my mom and dad and I said, get some more information about [her husband] and see if she would want some visitors.

And then [her husband] told my parents, she says, I don't want any ministers from your church coming to visit me. And I said, well, okay, that pretty much makes that clear. But then I got home and then [her husband] called me up and he says, come and visit. I know she doesn't want ministers from your church to come visit, but just come to visit as a friend.

And so I went to visit as a friend and brought an Easter flower. It was the time of Easter and gave it to [her husband] and just visited with the family about casual, everyday temporal matters. And when I said goodbye to her, I said, well, we've had many nice visits over the years when I've come to bring Easter and Christmas flowers and come to visit [her husband]. And she says, bring greetings to your wife.

So she could still talk on Tuesday and then a few days later she was not really able to speak anymore and up. And then one brother from our congregation told [her husband] that preach the gospel to her. Preach it again and again and again at her bedside.

And so that's what he did the last morning of her life and offered her the gospel. And then afterwards, or about the time she died, then he asked his daughter, unbelieving daughter, to call me. And he was wondering how she reacted and so on and so forth. And the daughter called, prompted by the father, and said that,

Yes, she did seem to nod and acknowledge at that moment. And so that's got left in God's hands. But I'm just illustrating this, that one brother from our congregation told [her husband], that preach the gospel, preach it again and again as often as you can.

So going back to the question, yeah, there may be a... We may never encounter it as we have heard in speeches yesterday, never in our life. Many of us may never encounter it, but there may be a situation where a heretic would come and come with conditions that wanting to be blessed into their false peace and doctrine, and then that would be a situation where we can't.

John Kated, we have Aaron Matilla, then Jim Frantti, Lane Mackey, the next three speeches. We have a fairly long list. I think our time goes until 1130, unless we just want to go all summer. Eric? Well, I have to say that it's very nice to be here.

Many times yesterday I wanted to raise my hand, and before I did, another brother spoke to me today. I thought I was thinking, if I don't see how anybody could leave this camp without this assurance that the

Holy Spirit has spoken loud and clear that many brothers that I don't know live in different areas of the country or different countries that took exactly my thoughts I was trying to put together and I was going to say

But I would also like to speak boldly if I can. There's already been spoken of many times this morning. It's been good to see the brothers take care of matters and repent from these issues. Martin Luther says we can't

compromise even a little bit on doctrinal issues such as heresy. But I have family members in five different states, and I know these issues and these questions that have been raised are being talked about and discussed.

All these congregations, I've been, even up in Alaska, I've had many people come up and say, what's going on? Are we having a heresy? What were these differences? I would like to say to even our brothers, Darwin and Bill,

There's going to be many, many people watching to see what you say and how you react when you get back. I know and I have heard that people have took sides that I'm on Darwin's side or I'm on Yoko's side.

I encourage you that this may be one of the most important times in your life that you fully preach the truth in God's kingdom and what the Spirit has spoken here at camp.

that we are all united, we all be the same. The people that took wrong sides or had wronged the enemy,

that you would give them courage to put these matters away. And through your bold speech that you could lovingly call them and encourage them, that God's kingdom is still on this foundation. And even these brothers in the LLC, we need and we love these brothers. I know for myself, I have talked to them many, many times

and asked their understanding and needed this encouragement. They've always been patient with me, though I probably used up more valuable time than I should have. But even you brothers, I want to say, don't tire in this battle. I know it's probably very hard to quote to the pulpit, as we've even had a matter come up in Alaska

And I know my next speaking turn, I threw up my feet up there. It was the hardest time I served. I didn't want to serve anymore. I wanted to leave. It just disappeared. But we can't tire when we're in this battle. We know Jesus is also there battling with us. And I just felt I had to speak my mind that, look,

to preach to the congregation members that this is God's kingdom, that truth has reigned clear, and we can still live of this grace. And I believe all my sins and doubts will be forgiven.

Good to be here. Did they answer what I said? Yeah.

Well, first of all, I say that what I was going to say was a very thorough recovery. Just in the general situation, I'm not a very believable commentator. I couldn't imagine a situation where you would not preach. I don't know any situation where I would have heard it again. That's completely what didn't happen to me. It's rare. It's rare. It's all I can say.

As I said yesterday, it's a real joy to be here and hear all of these speeches. But I want to agree with what our brother John Stewart said, that when we are before this matter of forgiveness, and I talked about this matter, it seems like there's

I don't know, is there a more central matter in Christian doctrine than that? And so it is clear that when we are teaching or hear different teachings about this matter of forgiveness, it is a question of doctrine. And that's very, very important, that we are teaching the same on forgiveness.

And as I already said in my speaking terms previously, that I don't feel we can make such a sweeping statement that there could never be a time that forgiveness is not free. And I don't say that that just happens when we are talking to those in heresy. I don't feel we can even limit it to that. Jesus gave two keys to his kingdom.

And he did it because there are going to be times when both can be needed. Mostly the key of Gusev, we hope and pray. But I can't say that we never would need that other key. Why would he have given it? And so, when we are talking about this matter, we're talking doctrinal matters. And I agree with Pete Lieber's comments that

We are talking now that if we're teaching differently on that, it's not due to weak words, and it's not due to personality. Those are always present. They've all been present from the Garden of Eden, I think. And, you know, if we had to have discussions like we've had this weekend, every time weak words were spoken,

We'll be here beyond supper. We'll be here for, you know, months to come because how often have you spoken and never used a single weak word in your sermons or speaking terms at meetings? You know, charity covers a multitude of sins and those types of weak words are covered by charity.

They don't cause divisions or dissension or worries or fears amongst God's congregation. When they hear our weak words, they say, well, you didn't speak very clearly, but you're believing correctly. They forgive our weak words. It's not a question of weak words, nor is it a question of personality, because

You know, maybe some of you, like me, have battled with your own personality for a long time. And we can oftentimes wish that we were a little different in our nature. But we are what we are. Like Apostle Paul even said, you know, by the grace of God, I am what I am. But his grace, which was bestowed upon me, was not in me.

So we are not dealing, even in those meetings with the Wolf Lake brothers. Sure, there was all kinds of personalities there. That doesn't cause differences, dear brothers. We carry each other in that sense, in charity.

And so when we have these differences in teaching, and especially about this matter of forgiveness, we are speaking of doctrinal differences, and that's why it's been such an important discussion for us to have this weekend. You know, when I thought about those words from Philippians that our brother Dan read, I thought that it is important that

As Paul writes that we'd be like minded. And that if anyone would be otherwise minded, God would reveal it. And we've heard words of encouragement for anybody who feels of any other mind to speak freely about those things.

It would be very important that that happened. I don't say that those of you who haven't spoken here, it's because you don't agree. I think actually you've been wise, you've followed the advice of Apostle James, be swift to hear and slow to speak. And that's okay to be a listener. It's more important to be a listener than a speaker, isn't it?

But on the other hand, if we have questions or we're not in agreement, it's important to take care of those matters. And our brother Eric, who just spoke, apologized for taking some of our time with his questions. I've actually thanked him for them.

Because I have so appreciated his freedom as a young brother when he's had questions about matters of doctrine or faith and he's wondered about them, he hasn't been ashamed to ask. Let's not be embarrassed by our weak understandings even to ask each other, how do you understand this? We help each other because none of us knows everything. And I have appreciated his freedom in asking those questions.

And I encourage that kind of discussion, not just at Speaker's Camp, but always between us, that we talk really about these things. And then finally I want to say that as believers, we aren't on anybody's side.

You know, I'm not on Yoko's side. I'm his brother. We walk arm in arm together. We've been escorts to each other. We have sat at many meetings together. We have preached the gospel to each other more times than I could count. But I'm not on his side. We are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And it becomes so dangerous if we begin to say I'm on that person's side or that person's side or I support that one or I support the comments of that one. If you brothers hear those kinds of comments, please speak to them.

Please say, you can't be on Darwin's side, or Yogo's side, or Keith's side, or anybody's side. You know, we need to walk together. And in this flock, none of us is above the other. Who do we follow? Who do we follow in this journey of faith?

We have this one good shepherd, and he leads his flock. And let's be followers of him. But I want to say also a word of encouragement to these brothers whose names have been outvoted, that it's not your words that have made people say that. It's not your errors, it's not your sins that make people say that.

The enemy has caused them to see things in this kind of way. And they need to take care of those matters.

So be free, dear brother, you'll be free. And Darwin also, I'd say I enjoyed also my chances to speak afterwards last evening with both Darwin and Phil. My encouragement to them was that I know from our meetings with the Wolf Lake Board that there are those on that board who have taken some fairly strong positions.

And I hope that these brothers now who have heard all of our discussions can go back and as difficult as it is to try to share the feeling we've had here, it feels impossible to me to share the feeling that we've had here of unity and how God's Spirit has spoken. But I hope somehow that you brothers can share that.

We're on the same side. Yeah, and I don't want there to be some residue here. And I know that it has been sometimes mentioned that there are those in Wolf Lake who have felt a little bit of kind of a sentiment that why are all these problems in Wolf Lake?

I want to say that, and I think I speak for everyone here. I know I speak for myself, but I think I speak for everyone here. You're brothers from Wolf Lake. You are black sheep. We don't wonder what's wrong with Wolf Lake. You know, all of these issues, they're not a problem of a congregation. They're a problem that the enemy causes.

And he doesn't just attack Wolf Lake. I can assure you of that. He attacks me personally in my own home and wherever the leaders are. And so I hope that this message from this week can go back to your Lord and your congregation and can help to restore and build the unity of the believers. We can't walk our own paths

We have to walk together the same path. I have many times shared, and this is the last thing I'll say, but I've shared this many times, but it has remained. This is an important thing to me. When I was in Finland in 2008,

I was walking on the ground there and amongst a crowd of people and one young father who I didn't know was with his little kids pushing a stroller and he called to me and wanted to come and greet me because he could tell I was a stranger and a foreigner. Anyway, he wanted to talk and he introduced himself. I had a very nice visit about faith matters but then he told me that

He said, you know, since a boy, I've been coming to Sumice every year. And now as a father, I'm bringing my children here. And he said, every year when I come here, I stand in the middle of the grounds here, and I look around at all these people, and I think, these are all the people that are on the way to heaven. And even I am part of this group.

And dear brothers, that's how I feel here in Sweden. These are all my brothers that are on the way to heaven. And it's a miracle of God's grace that I can be a part of Jesus. I want to walk in unity of faith with you. I want to follow the Lord Jesus Christ in his kingdom. And yet, again this morning, I want you here to come. Amen.

Thank you, Jim. I'm going to read the names on the list so that others know that I have seen you and hopefully all that wanted to speak. Every speech is so important. We have about 15 minutes until our concluding time. So let's keep that time frame in mind. Blaine Mackey, Paul Matley, Mark Lee,

Peter ,, ,, Ron Simonson, Mike ,, ,, Eric Lofty, Frank Simonson.

I just wanted to say a couple of the words that Eric said last night after wandering back from the summit on the street. A lot of guys said, you text. And the street one here is really not part of it.

He said, thanks for sharing the good news. I've been thinking of camped out this weekend and wishing I could be there. God has heard the prayers of his children, given many greetings by the peace march. Then he followed up and said, warm greetings from the west coast of Africa also. God and the west are driven there. The unity and the same understanding prevented through this Holy Spirit is beyond words.

And then Kevin Novar also sent a text, sending his greetings and wishing that he was here with all of you. And then, it was rather late, but when I sent those texts out, but even some of those brothers that didn't have these conversations,

The next fact is we have a lot of support. Thank you. I just said a simple fact that we need to visit first. You know, I'm assuming that for these matters that we're discussing. We need to do it.

He's asking a blessing for you both. Good numbers. In Jesus' name, amen.

I would just like to relay my personal thoughts on the game with reluctance. Any excuses?

It seems that it was heard.

Thank you for the room. I think that in spite of the fact that I've been in this office for quite a few years, it seems that I'm able to be alive and have a place in this office. Thank you. Maybe it was a mistake to place me in this office.

Also, I think that as maybe each of the citizens, I feel more and more that we need the assurance of a...

My fellow brothers in service and support in the congregation that really am a child of God. I feel encouraged to do this service. I feel myself quite foreign to encourage others because I need this encouragement of myself.

This, it has meant that the earth may die. Marvel, two of the gifts of so many people will be experienced in the church, brothers and sisters. I realize that God has placed in particular places those that have the gifts to serve in that place and that time.

Most of all, he has heard the gospel. As any speaker of Christ, bless you. Amen.

We had different thoughts, and now the mic comes, it seems like. I thought it would be wise to not say anything, but we've been good people. One of the things I thought I'd mention was yesterday we talked

blasphemy was brought up as far as the work of the Lord the Savior. Jesus told me that there is one sin that Jesus says that cannot be forgiven. And that there were a few comments in regard to that. So I thought about it through and I shared it.

a couple of times with a couple of brothers, but I thought I'd just speak to it a little bit because it is the Jesus words and the examples that I've experienced is where my parents have used that portion of God's word and advice to those that have left God's kingdom

and they chose to go into the world they're here you know they're they're up they're they're family and it's really we know how distressing that is but the question is is that um

What does it mean? What are the examples? I don't know. Like myself, I don't know when somebody has blasted for sure, but when I think about it in the context of where my parents have gave advice to family members, they're doing it for this reason that

That they understand that that person has chosen to go into the world. And they know how devastating that is to see a dear one go into the world because it's so sad. But they also understand as people that that unbelief is forgiven. And for that reason they give that advice that

When you go into the world, don't blast them. And it's because Jesus said that that's not, that can't be forgiven. That person can make that decision themselves as to what it is, what the caution is. They do not do it. So, I just thought I'd share that because...

I think it's appropriate to exercise that caution to those that do leave, to remind them of what God's Word says, because it is the Word of God. The other thought I had was the brothers at work.

in the service of God's kingdom as an occupation and even serving the past and the future. Especially the LLC in general. I think that's a story I want to relate. I really appreciate Keith's opening comments in regard to just an update based on what took place in regard to God's work.

how we identify it with different translations, the Bible, etc., etc. It's just that they're exercising their position. They're bringing, you know, it's like I'm sitting here next to Randy. He's been sitting right here. I just like to be there. It's almost like when I was a kid in school to sit next to the smart kid. laughter

You know, it's just a good feeling to be kind of close to the boys. But my story I wanted to relate is a little over a year ago, I got a call from John Moon that called me this evening.

i think he maybe left a message i didn't answer the phone but you know we i got back to him probably 11 30 at night trying to make contact thanksgiving day but so anyway he says you know i don't know what you think about this is kind of a far-off question but he said

He says, I know they're, you know, don't think you should do this by any means or whatever, but he says, what do you think about going to Togo next week?

So we talked about it a little bit, and I said, you know, I don't know what's going on, but let me get back to y'all. You know, I mean, he's talking next week. He said, there isn't a lot of time. So my wife said, who is that? And I said, John wants you to go to the first Aspen thing, go to that. And she said, go.

I said, what? You realize what I think is going on?

You know, I might be able to make it work. And he said, well, here's the deal. You've got a visa that's still in place. And, you know, the guy in Finland is sick or something, whatever it was supposed to call it. I was going to take his spot. And, uh...

You know, there's like two guys in Zion that have actually been there recently that can go, and you're really probably the only one that can go. So, it makes sense, you know, because at least I can go, and I'm actually a speaker, and that's what we need.

Now you've got to start making the long story short. It's crazy. So anyways, I fall. But the point is that what John told me, there was a few words he said.

And, you know, I mean, it's getting all the quieter. There's a lot more in the story about visas and the pain of them. You know, Thursday, like, tomorrow before we got to get to the airport, Ron's visa shows up.

You know, so I mean, it's a great life to go. I'm still working. I just run home, throw a few things in the suitcase and go because I didn't think it was going to happen. Well, it did happen. And the point is that I told John, somewhere in there, John said, you know, the reason we're trying to do this is we're trying to get the services over there so they're not canceled.

And that was like, it's just so amazing to me that these guys, their goal was to try to get services over there. You know, I'm just a small part of the group, you know, and that's what these guys are doing. You know, that's their job. And it was a huge blessing to me.

So then, yesterday,

Or the night before last Friday night. I mean, the crime that happened at 1230 and somebody's in the wrong country. I don't know who it is, but I'm thinking he's in the wrong group. But he's in the right group, I'm in the wrong group. I didn't know who it was, you know. At about two o'clock in the morning,

All of a sudden I heard this noise, and I thought, Ron. I've been gone and totaled with Ron. Like, out of mind. So all of a sudden I knew who I was. Those are the benefits of being here. I'm going to stop. Thank you.

Okay. There's a question for Keith. Yeah, a little. Okay, so brothers heard that. Next year we can focus.

We are out of time, so I will try to be initial as if I repeat the beginning and the end so people pull together. And it's just as beautiful, dear brothers, that on this last stage, we have this joy in our hearts. I was thinking that

Jesus, in his high priestly prayers, said, I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine. Jesus, at his present care, is weak. He has remembered weak serpents. He has remembered his flock. And I was even thinking back to when God created Adam there. First, he went.

He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. That is why we are here. That is why we are discussing matters of faith, for it is about concern over undying souls, first our own, and then those who we can help. And so also, I wanted to just say a brief comment about the LLC. For a short time now, I've been serving on the ward.

And I have found very humble workers desiring to be obedient to the call, desiring to serve God. And last weekend we had a board meeting and I visited with Rod Nicola and he also shared at the meeting he has begun work at the LLC. He said that for four years I worked in the power industry and never once heard the gospel.

Now I have been with LLC for one week, and I have heard many times. Isn't that a beautiful message that is here in God's kingdom? And there has been an abundance of the gospel here this weekend. It has uplifted and encouraged me. Dear brother, as I leave this camp, I am also uplifted and encouraged in the word. And I also would like to leave hearing the gospel from my own sinfulness. In Jesus' name, amen.

I was going to pass on my turn, but I'll make the brief. I also appreciate the openness and freedom that's prevailed here. And I know for myself, I feel appreciative of what Pete said before he left, that my flesh would want to come out again and come back, but I don't want to.

And I think we all feel that way at times, that we don't want to do stuff. And my flesh battles is, I don't know, it's with yesterday that I created this vessel to play. And sometimes it's too old, sometimes I feel it's not holding up. I don't know. But I don't know what that's, that's, I need to see what I can do.

And I think the same thing is there in the congregation.

There are so many different personalities. And for us, I think it's so important that we don't leave the room. We don't want to do it once again.

And at the same time, we don't want to delete the links of so many things that we may have heard and felt in the schedules, regardless of who it is or what it is. It's so unfortunate that we're concerned about what's out there, whatever it says that we, that some of you guys could do that.

My last thing I wanted to say is that I'm not picking on Randy, but it's just something that I can jump out at him. I have been overly troubled over it, but when I hear it, I don't like it. And that's the term, trusted brother. And I understand that we are trusted brothers. We've been trusted at a high station. But sometimes when I hear it, I feel like, and I just feel like, well, are there honeycombs?

So, it's not a scriptural term, and I would like to feel that we're all in the same process of love. But, one of the things when I hear it, and I know I've heard this coming from others, too, from my relationship with the Father, so I just wanted to be free and put that out there as something to think about, and how we say it. But again, I want to hear that gospel tonight. Thank you.

Remember the ladies have offered to send lunches in some evening from Cali. Feel free to ask in the basement.

So, a couple of thoughts, quickly, one of them is that when things are helping the congregation, not only in the talk about personality or issues of the question of individual or motives, right, because those are all part of who we are, and it's a different kind of job.

But when there's times of warfare or battle, that's when those questions come up. And so I read from Paul's book, The Role of the Self, 2 Corinthians 10. For his letters say they are weighty and horrible, but his bodily presence is weak to his speech and temperament.

So these are the people who would have plucked their eyes out again, who are now writing and saying these things about the Apostle Paul. And it points to what the enemy can accomplish in our midst. And I think that speaks to what has been so wonderfully refreshing and telling to hear the speech of others. And I just rejoice over the many, many speeches that we'll be numbering together.

It has refreshed and strengthened my own faith in the future, in the work of the funeral college. And I felt that the statement that I gave yesterday had been supportive, reinforced by many of those speeches. But some of the feedback I got this morning said it wasn't. And so I appreciate, brother, that you made those comments also.

I don't really have anything new to say, but just

I've been encouraged already by all of you brothers and all of us that we'd be able to continue preaching the servant of faith. Of course, each of us is in different positions in life, but what yesterday we talked about, the matters pertaining to Calvert and that, just from the perspective of one father, I would speak for

All of the parents in Zion, we need the discernment of faith. And we're looking forward to having more children and raising our kids. I was having a text conversation yesterday with my wife. And I sent greetings from camp. God has blessed this camp. And we have heard a lot of talks from our fathers.

You want to have a discussion, you want to do, say the song that I have together with my wife. This is a small example, but we need that kind of encouragement. If you reach the servant of faith, I thought in this recent course about my grandma and

We keep preaching that, serving the faith, because it does, it's, you know, I've thought about her, and it's such a happy thing that you can't understand that the things that, the struggles that we've talked about now, the battles and all that, one day they will end for sure. And may God protect all of us so that we are able to close our eyes in faith and go to that place of peace.

I also want to leave with the reassurance of the gospel of my misunderstandings and sins and the law of my sins. John Simon said, I quote the next three names and we're getting near the end. I just wanted to readdress a portion of God's word to John.

It's open this morning with the 16th chapter of Romans. And I want to read beginning from the 16th verse on. Beginning with the 16th verse, it says, Salute one another with a holy kiss. Salute you with this. And a recap of the first 15 verses of that chapter.

But then he continues, Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and differences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such serve not the Lord Christ, but their own belly, and why weak words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

For your obedience has come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf, but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

And what I wanted to talk about there, and I think is probably the reason that there has been concern, even coming to this camp, is that we would follow in the doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ. And when we look at things that have happened in former heresies,

There's always been matters of wrong doctrine. Whatever those matters have been, they have been wrong doctrine that have divided law. And we have differences in doctrine.

They're not only differences in opinion, but they are differences in the doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ. And those differences in doctrine will eventually, if they're not taken care of, separate and divide these laws of God.

And so, dear younger brothers especially, the doctrine of Christ is very, very important, and that there should be no, we could say no schism in the body that's already been broken.

Talked about this weekend, which is that chisholm is the doctor of Christ. There's chisholm in the body, there's differences, there's separations in the body. It's because of these rongas. And Satan, as we heard already this morning, brings those differences.

And even as has been mentioned this morning that there are differences, and we even heard examples on this birth control issue, there are differences.

There are differences in the doctrine, in God's kingdom, and it's our duty as watchmen on the walls of Zion when we see that enemy approach, that we would open our way and that we would warn of those things so that we can remain and that Christ will keep us together in the unity of the Spirit of God. Thank you.

My own part of that, you know, I come here and, you know, many young brothers here and they appreciate your presence here. As an older brother, I don't feel like an older brother. A young one, you know.

And it has been so good to be here this week. And it has been so good to see that these, what we perceive as problems, the Lord Jesus Christ has, through his spirit, been able to take care of those problems. And I encourage you to hear the voice of the Lord.

and take care of them. That's why they're in Wolf Lake, and if there have been differences there, you brothers are, you've been trusted, been entrusted with these words.

Or would we say that as shepherds before? And so, I bring you greetings on this account, even if you don't know it.

Just want to encourage you brothers on the LLC to continue to fight the fight of faith. You're not fighting for yourself, but you're fighting for what is right and what is wrong. Fight the faith. Last Sunday night at 10 o'clock, my phone rang. I got a text from our boy. He said, Dad, can I call you? He said, please call me.

Do you recall that in Minneapolis, you had heard that there were meetings about forgiveness?

There was a bunch of those young, happy kids. The dad were gathered together here. We heard this question that there are never times we can't be together. We got together and we opened the Bible, and the Bible makes it clear there are those instances we can't be together. And I said, what do I do? What do we do? I said, well, I haven't heard anything, so be patient. But I said, you did the right thing, you know.

got together, you opened the Bible, and you read the word of God, and God will teach you. Yesterday my wife texted me twice. She was praying for us. The last time I said that. The meetings went well, and the kingdom of God is in good hands. Dear brothers, the kingdom of God, we are in good hands. We will be taken care of. We keep faith in a good conscience. We will always be cared for.

I also, when I leave here, want to be reassured in my four-week faith that I too, once again, care about the United States.

There's a portion of the Scripture that I think is good for all of us to consider, from the youngest to the oldest. We've heard in the beginning of devotion that people have been here, let them hear what the Spirit sends to the congregation.

And if each of us has that item, then I think that there won't be issues, of course, that we'll always be hearing, but that kind of person wants to take care of matters that we typically do in the same blood.

And we don't want to listen to that message from anybody else, but each of us wants to hear the good shepherd and God's angel. And the other portion, as I already mentioned, is the family. David's prayer.

Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me, and know my path. And see if there be any wicked ways in me, and lead me in the way of the Lord. I'm sure that if we continue with this prayer,

Because God will preserve us. And I also believe in God. They, like many others, gave this account with a lot of fear.

I wasn't necessarily looking forward to this camp, although I should have. I know God's word instructs not to fear, to trust in him. He will take care of us. This weekend, I see that God is taking care of us.

I had a lot of thoughts yesterday. Many times I wanted to raise my hands, but I didn't. And I had some very good conversations at the dinner table and after discussions and into the evening. And I know that this camp has been good for me. And I know that a lot of states came in, the spirit has spoken.

And my wife had texted me. I know, you know, I shared my thoughts before I left camp, over camp. And she had texted me, you know, I had asked for her prayers. And she had texted me how everything was going. And, you know, I thought, I think I was going to text you this mid-afternoon.

I said, it's tiring, but I think it's going okay. And I had to send a text later on the day that the day was good. And I'm glad, you know, I thought to myself, maybe I can share it at lunchtime now, if someone were to ask me.

What my thoughts were, I was, I guess, confused. I was simple minded person. I had, you know, I think many of us felt confused. But we know that the Spirit has spoken. We know that we can leave this camp in unity. And I just want to leave this camp knowing that

Because, you know, I know you will remember me, but I ask that you will also remember me. You know, it's not going to be easy to remember our family. Yeah? I would like to hear that gospel.

I too, I came to this camp with a lot of reservations and struggle. But I have to say it. Larry has been able to guide me through these things.

I want to say that I think that this, we can say, doctrinal difficulty has been a threat to the doctrinal people.

I have to say that I didn't understand that when I first came. And I didn't understand this, that this understanding that I had first been offended by, that the idea that we would never forgive sins, what I was offended by. But coming to this camp, I have been able to understand that this understanding

The idea that we would never forgive sins is a threat to the doctrine of peace. Because in the kingdom is two keys, the loose and the fine.

And we know, dear brothers, that without the Kingdom, there is no Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus is inseparable from the Kingdom. We have been given this command by Christ Jesus. What did He say? He said, go forth and preach the Kingdom. How can we preach Him without the Kingdom?

If your brother and I have to say that I have felt this caused the enemy to give in to my own flesh and this thing, and with this hearing I have stopped, and I have also listened with ears that I shouldn't have listened to, then I want my life forgiven. Because isn't it our desire, isn't it, is that we want to follow our Lord Jesus.

He has called us and sent us to preach the kingdom. And we want to follow it in lockstep with our brothers.

And I have to say that God has miraculously, in miraculous ways, in my own life, even of faith, even here, I've had a bit of difficulty, struggles with some of the brothers, and I can talk about it with my heart. Different brothers from miraculous ways have come to assist me in this state, guided by the Lord Jesus. And we looked at Him.

And there's many other things I could say, but I wanted to say that. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Thank you, Brian. Jerry. They should have been really encouraged with this cancer.

Thank you, all of you.

We heard good advice from any of the brothers who take this word of hope in the church and the Pentecostal congregations and also through Darwin and Bill to take it to the whole place there. And that's good, very good advice. And even to you, Darwin and Bill, especially,

I want to encourage you with this, that you're not the point alone, brothers, that you have the support of all of us here, you have the support of

your brothers from the LLC, all of us here from the LLC, to remember that. And when you go to help your congregation, to ask for help and accept help, we all need that help. We just want to remind you to be encouraged to

to know that you're not alone in this. And that's a good instruction for each one of us as we go back to our congregations and do this work, which we know we are not even qualified to do. We don't know all the answers, but we have help and God's kingdom.

And we can be happy and thankful for that. We want to be together as brothers and accept one another's help in all these things. And then the work is easier. It's not so difficult. For my sins and doubts and non-watching, I ask that you believe.

I do ask that you, brothers, bring back the message to your own congregations that

I also want them to forgive me for confusion or whatever. I don't want to be in any way looked at that [unintelligible]. So, reassure those also that it's not my wish and ask them that also that you would forgive me. And then I also

uh visited with phil on the way here and we have we have already we promised to speak to our congregation we will discuss and like has been alluded to i think some of these things came up with a tenderness and a fear of past uh fear of not preaching and then these things began to

take on a life of their own and I have regretted personally now that I have not picked up the phone and called spoken and you know we see that things get going and it's unfortunate certainly on the other hand thought brings the important matters to the surface we can now say we're talking about big matters in the homes and

It's a good thing that we can all come together on this, and the important matters are in our hearts, and we're not caught up with other things. It's certainly sorrowful, it has been for me, and so forth, but I still look to the goodness of God and [unintelligible]. And if you will bless me one last time, brothers. Randy, I'd like to speak.

I'd like to close this meeting with scriptures. [family details omitted] And I found these words, and I think they're fitting for this occasion. And it's from Psalms 126.

The Lord hath done great things for us, whereof we are glad. They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, very precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves.

Thank you, brothers, for sharing your thoughts and the support of our team. Even though I live closer to the camp than any of you do, I have to leave now. And it's been very uplifting for my own safety to be here this weekend. Thank God for that.

[family details omitted]

So thank you. And God's peace. And I ask for that blessing one more time.

[family details omitted] I don't know that I could have been here, but what a blessing. Where else would I be? Yeah.

At the end of my little talk, I mentioned the gospel, but also I learned that never use the word never. So, can you forgive me for all this?

Okay, this ends our discussion. May I ask for my own pardon. We've all taken up the weariness of discussions and battles. We know that we have visits that need to happen as we go forward, but let us go with courage, strength, power, and possible. May I do you all my sins.

In Jesus' name we pray. In Jesus' name we pray. In Jesus' name we pray. In Jesus' name we pray. In Jesus' name we pray. In Jesus' name we pray.

In Jesus' name, we believe all sins forgiven. In Jesus' name, we believe all sins forgiven. In Jesus' name, we believe all sins forgiven.

Just a couple of practical details, brothers. When we go to the food line, some could stay and stack the chairs and the tables, pick up any rubbish here. That would be much appreciated. There's no vacuuming or anything else that needs to be done.

We didn't do camp evaluations, but I would very much look forward to any suggestions or thoughts that you have regarding Minister's Camp for the future or any thoughts about this camp. Glad to receive them.

So thanks to all of you who have served here and who have participated and wish you brothers, your brothers, God's blessings in the work. And the pastoral committee, pastoral department, the policy office wants to support you in your work. So feel free any time to contact us and ask questions.

And in conclusion, I ask also for my many weaknesses and weak words that these things can hide in these. We will have George now come up and conclude our camp with a devotion. And then Sam Royko will announce a song afterwards for which we'll stand and sing together.

OK, brothers, thanks for everything. Yeah, they probably didn't even agree to want to be a person, at least with God's face here at the end of the camp. You know, when I was a young Bible class leader,

I think it was my first Bible class that I kept in Cocado. It's the shortest Bible class on record. And this morning, we were going to close at noon, so this may be the closest devotion, the shortest devotion on record. But I went before the congregation terrified. I'm no teacher.

And I said to the congregation, let's all say the Lord's Prayer. And I recited the benediction. And I was wondering why nobody was saying the prayer. I think most of you probably were like me, coming here.

footsteps and yet we've experienced that which Jesus when he reminded us to come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy weighted and I will give you rest we've been able to rest here at the feet of Jesus and he has felt so kind the Holy Spirit has

the unerring, incredible, miraculous Holy Spirit of our Heavenly Father, which has never erred, has spoken to us so beautifully during these days. Darwin, I personally to you would fill up

that I've wanted to come help many times, to visit. Always Satan put something in my way. But I fear, but I have prayed many, many prayers on your behalf and on behalf of the brothers and sisters

We're confused by the enemy of the soul, and yet I wish to ask personally of you and all you dear brothers that can't learn my sins. But my heart has been rejoicing along with yours.

And you know, there were times that your brother, Russell, you know, he kept this simple sermon, this, and I'm like, oh. Our Heavenly Father, wisdom is so incredible when he threw the lips of his brothers to speak unto us. And so, for this short devotion, I wanted to read this portion.

of God's Word, where we often go and hear the words of God unto us, where He says, Comfort ye, comfort ye, my people, saith the Lord. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem,

and cry unto her that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned, for she hath received the Lord's hand doubled for all her sins. We long for and we yearn for that comfort from our Heavenly Father again.

Dear brothers, at any given time, wherever the believers are gathered together, there is somebody there who is struggling mightily around the matters of living faith, struggling mightily against that sin that Satan has caused them to fall into. And there are those that have a wrong understanding on some issues of God's kingdom and doctrine.

And everyone has their own personal struggle in living faith. And so we long for comfort. We long for encouragement. We want to hear that simple sermon of faith. All that's required of us is to simply believe in our own place of watching.

That our own sins are forgiven. And he reminds us here, he says, speak comfortably to Jerusalem. And then he says, I believe.

So it translates to tenderly speaking, tenderly to God's congregation. This is the voice of the shepherd. That's what we long for. That's what we need to have. But we're not forgotten. We're remembered. Even though you may be struggling so mightily at any given time on any given issue, lift your heart. Believe.

Your sins are forgiven in Jesus' name, O precious one. You know, we just celebrated the time of Easter, and again, you know, we were reminded of that message at first from the angels that fear not. The Lord is not dead. He lives.

And all the disciples, when the women came back and they had met Jesus, and the Bible says they believed not. And then those two that were so struggling, they were walking to that little village of Emmaus.

They were just so downtrodden and faithless. It was just a little spark. And their footsteps were so heavy and slow. And when Jesus approached them, they didn't even recognize the Lord whom they had spent

Countless days listening daily to the loving exhortation and instruction. And as I traveled, Jesus, he took the Bible. He took the Bible and he led those disciples where? To the unfailing foundation of God's word.

Jesus has led us again during these days here, again to the heaven-failing foundation. And you know, when Jesus, he took the bread, and he blessed it, and he break it, and he gave it to his disciples, and he disappeared from the midst. He looked back on another and he said, did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us along the way?

God's Word warms our cold hearts. And that's what Brother Risa reminded that old pray that, that we would be either cold or hot and not feel warm. And how was your experience, dear brothers?

How we again and again need to be filled with that comfort, that gospel that flows freely in Zion from that grace throne. We need again and again to come up to that and simply believe in this place of watching. And dear brothers, I and we

need one another. And I didn't mean to pick on Russell. Because Keith and time and time again, I just felt so good when I was hearing. My spirit was rejoicing. There was a time that I was going to explain how loud

But it is incredible, the wisdom of God. And the Bible reminds us how the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And in the Proverbs, it reminds us

But with humility and the fear of God and great treasures and great honor, eternal life, dear brothers, does it take to believe, to remain in that place of a little child? We are nothing more than mothers.

that the Heavenly Father fills, and we relay that which the Holy Spirit reveals unto us. We're little boys here in God's kingdom, and may God always keep us as little boys, desiring, even as Peter said, that the sincere milk of the Word, that through by that we can grow, that we comforted.

And so we thank God. We thank God for his incredible wisdom that he has placed here into his kingdom through his Holy Spirit. And so even now we have these days of this weekend.

with joy in our hearts. Jesus is not dead. He lives. He's here with us. And he's taught us during these days. And rest assured, dear brothers, that all your sins and doubts are forgiven in Jesus' name, unrighteous blood. And could I hear that gospel again from my double sister? I certainly desire to be with you.

And dear brothers, God has a reason and a purpose for all things. And without question, these last days and weeks and months have been trying the hearts of men. Dear brothers,

You know your own experiences. It's so important that you go forth with that joyous proclamation. The unity of the Holy Spirit is here in our midst. And the joy of believing is here. And so comfort thee, comfort thee, saith the Lord. It's important that we reassure ourselves

In Jesus' name, amen. Dear Heavenly Father, O God, with joyful hearts we praise thy holy name.

to thank you, dear Father, for teaching us, for reminding us, and for exhorting us these days. Dear Father, we simply ask and beg of thee to increase our faith. Dear Father, keep us as little children here in thy kingdom.

Say, Dear Lord, bless us and keep us. Make thy face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. Dear Lord, lift up thy confidence upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen.