Rockford Congregation Discussion on Forgiveness, August 28, 2016

I'm sure you all can understand that as this topic was given to me, first I felt a little

Portions to the common God of earth, of goodness, and the disciples said, the disciples said, Lord, in the trees of nature, come, come, come, come, come, come.

The second thing I would like to say before we start is that many, many portions of God's Word came to mind. We could fill the whole evening just reading from Scripture what it says. And I would beg of you and plead of you that you do the same as I did. I took my phone

Searched the Bible and went through texts one after another. When I read this text, two parts came to my mind that I thought about that. So many times when we come to the services of God's word, it's like we're sitting at the, listening to Jesus on, serving on the mount. There's a whole big group of us gathered together in the

And there we sit and listen, and it's good to be there when we're listening to Jesus speak. But then when it comes to matters pertaining to God's kingdom, which are close to justification of faith and matters like that, the Bible tells us how Jesus sat down and preached there.

The disciples sat at his feet. And hope you can find yourself tonight with Jesus. Not to follow what I or some other man say, but base it upon God's word.

based upon the Holy Spirit, what has been revealed in God's congregation, what has been taught in the past, and what has been shown to be true to your life of faith. In that vein, I couldn't begin to make my own presentation.

There was just a presentation that I was in attendance at last December in Finland at a minister's meeting. And it was titled this, A Forgiveness of Sins. And I would like to use this presentation because... It's here, so you can have it here.

I believed what was taught there, and I felt it within my heart that that's what I believed. So as you hear this presentation read, I want you to know that I believed this myself. I read this in that line, that if I could have written something down, I wish it would have been like this.

So this presentation is actually fairly short, probably 20 or 25 minutes when it was originally presented. I don't know for what reason, but I have removed a paragraph or two and left the rest as is. Some of it was because I was preparing this live and I wanted to make it as short as we could so we had time to discuss.

So these are the six topics that were discussed with this topic, forgiveness of sins. In the Lord's Prayer, we pray, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And again, in the Adam Scholar Creed, we tell of our belief in the forgiveness of sins.

During his public ministry, Jesus had a number of discussions about forgiveness of sins with unbelievers as well as with his disciples. This is perhaps best summarized in Jesus' mission command to his disciples after his resurrection. Receive ye the Holy Ghost, and whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto thy. And whosoever sins ye retain,

They are retained. What makes us pause is Jesus' teaching about the debtor of 10,000 talents. He had his full debt forgiven. This is part of his own 110th debtor. We surely all remember the final words of this teaching of Jesus.

And if you don't, I have some Bible verses that will be contained in there. Man is corrupted by original sin. In the creation story, we read that God said, let us make man in our image, at our lightness. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created in heaven. Male and female created in heaven.

Life began in paradise in communion with God. The enemy of souls, however, was able to entice man to sin. This human act brought sin to the world and with sin, death. Sin separated man from God. Paul states in his letter to the Romans, For there is no difference, for all have sinned that come short of the glory of God.

In the Augsburg Confession, original sin is defined as false. Since Adam is called sin, all men who are fathered in the normal physical way are conceived and born with sin. This means that they are born without the fear of God, without the trust in God and in the people's desires. Original sin affects everything in being from the earth.

Thus, because of our own nature, we ourselves have sinned as well as death. The Old Testament psalmist describes his own sinfulness and his own confession of sin. In bold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Pardon sinners. God had mercy on sinful men by sending his Son to redeem them.

The debtor needed someone to pay the debt. In God's work we see this immeasurable mercy.

The evangelist John writes, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Justification.

In the fall of the sin, man became subject to the law. To become saved, he needed to fulfill the whole law. Fulfillment of the law required and still requires us to govern our thoughts. Anyone who violates the law at one point is a transgressor of the whole law. Who amongst can fulfill the law? In sending his son to redeem us, God prepared righteousness for every man which is owned by faith.

Paul writes, but when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. The righteousness prepared in God's Son is said to be gift righteousness. This gift can be owned by faith. Faith is also gifted by God. Paul writes about this to the Ephesians,

For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Nothing is required of us. When God's holy law awakens the conscience of man as a gift, he can own prepared righteousness in the gospel by faith gifted by God.

When questioned about the greatest in the kingdom of God, Jesus took the example of a child. As the disciples reprimanded the parents that were bringing their children to the occasion, he took the children into his arms and blessed them. It's good for us to have this secure viewpoint in the midst of the many dangers of our time. It is a gift of God that we are partakers of a grace covenant.

Its sign in the Old Testament times was circumcision. In its place, God confirmed the covenant of baptism. In this covenant of grace, the Old Covenant believers travel believing the word of promise. Obeying God's will was the fruit of the righteousness of faith in them.

From the same righteousness of faith go the fruits of faith in our time, which are seen in obedience to the word of God opened by the Holy Spirit, and from that basis the instructions given from the congregation of God. In the letter to the Colossians we can read, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another. The Office of Preaching

According to the mission command given by Jesus, the kingdom of God calls a listener to this pre-covenant of grace. Through believing the gospel, the person is forgiven their sins. Forgiveness is always an act of God. God's children act here as intermediaries and proclaim as bearers of the Holy Spirit remission of sins in the name and blood of Jesus. This may be accepted as a gift of faith,

which bears with it a consequence of rejection and forgetting of sin. Despite this, the effect of original sin and temptations and enticements of sin remain with us. Through believing the gospel, we are both sinful and righteous. The office of preaching also contains the question of the power of the peace, the power which the Son of God gave in the mission command to his own church.

The power of the keys includes both the keys of loosing and binding. When forgiving sins, the key of loosing is used. In gospel work we too often face situations in which a person fallen to unbelief does not humble unto repentance and does not want to receive absolution. The word of God in this way binds them into their sins.

Here, too, the children of God act as intermediaries of God and the Holy Spirit, ultimately by making the sins performed by God. Jesus gave a clear guide to situations where the children of God take care of each other. We cannot ignore circumstances in which we see another child of God living in sin, doing or teaching otherwise than God teaches in His Word.

In our time, disagreements also arise between various believers. First and foremost, it should always be to plead for forgiveness and to believe forgiveness, but also to forgive. You can find advice in these situations, like polygamy or forbearance.

for wisdom, for skill, and for a humble mind from God, for such a mind in which no one stands over another. Sometimes the keys of vining need to be used in these situations. In this case, each of the keys to vining, as shown above in Jesus' teaching, are used by the gathered congregation of God. It is necessary to remember Paul's word of advice in the Colossians,

Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, all also mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering, forbearing one another and forgiving one another. If any man have a quarter of his penny, even as Christ forbade you, so also do we. Amen.

And above all these things put on a chair to you is the bond of perfectness. Dear brothers and sisters, the forgiveness of sins opens eternal life before us. It's the greatest gift that we can receive from God. The 10,000-pound header has become debt-free.

A common goal on our way to heaven is and should be to nurture a common and brotherly love, and at the same time nurture the entire congregation of God. Throughout time, the eminence of souls has sought to break this love, the love that is the hallmark of the children of God.

The destination of faith will be achieved on the basis of Christ's work of reconciliation through personal faith. This gift can be lost as a result of sin. If lost, the destination will not be attained. The one who has lost the gift cannot decide whether to take back the gift of forgiveness of sins. That decision is in God's hands.

Don't we see the significance and magnitude of the gift given today? That gift contains the promise of eternal life, that to a tired but happy servant or child of God belongs the words of the Heavenly Father. Well done, God's been faithful servant. God has been faithful over a few things and will be faithful over many things.

The next two slides that I'll show are slides that I put together and the moderator can move back and forth between these two slides or entertain questions or comments however you desire to see them.

The first slide, I would characterize it in such a way that these types of Bible verses have come up again and again in discussions when there have been questions asked of the Lord or servants of the Lord.

There's a difference of understanding with some people. For instance, the last two. Some of these have been those types of Bible verses where, just for instance, will you understand the questions that we're speaking about tonight? Where, for instance, on one occasion I was called after one of my terms of service

These verses were brought up and were explaining to me that I didn't have the correct understanding. I bring these Bible courses to you and ask that you consider them according to your life of faith and your understanding, what has been spoken about in God's kingdom throughout the years. I told this person that

I really don't have a leg to stand on. I really don't. I base my faith and understanding upon what I read in God's Word. I base it upon what has been taught to me when I was a little boy, what's been taught to me when I was a teenager, what's been taught to me even today when I come to the hearing of God's Word.

I don't have any personal say in any of these. It's not my place to tell all of you that this is the way we are supposed to understand it. But I'm sure you understand as well as I do that God, His Spirit, teaches in the congregation. Doesn't it? All people, we are both

I'm told that at the minister's camp, the Holy Spirit wasn't present.

It means that there's people here that believe that at that minister's camp, there were no believers. Not one. These are examples of Bible posts that have been used for shock folks. Disgust them, as we said.

The next slide are questions of our time. Some things that have been presented to our congregation board and to ministers. We've got some phone calls that have been presented now. These are what have been asked. What is being preached about? Talking about forgiveness of sins or forgiveness.

The person says they've heard that ministers are preaching to forgive only penitent people and are talking about hypothetical reasons when to withhold forgiveness of sins. And this is concerning to them because who are they to judge the hearts of others? Are ministers told what to preach about or is God giving them words?

Have you heard that the LLC board is telling the ministers what to include in their service? There's questions about how come lately there are no servants pulled from our class? How community is being reached when so many people are talking how there are ministers who have different beliefs? Why haven't these issues been brought up to the congregation as a whole?

There's been lots of talk in small groups, and it's scary that these issues are not being discussed openly. Some say that there's forgiveness just by going through communion. Some say there isn't really any forgiveness or finding, that neither one of the two are biblical, that man cannot either forgive sins or find.

That even in forgiveness, when we preach that in Jesus' name, all sins are forgiven, it's just a reminder of what Jesus did. That we're not actually forgiving anyone. I don't want to go through any of these questions myself and answer them one by one, except I would just like to take the opportunity as...

I want you to look at all these questions myself. As I would just like to imagine this being the beginning of the discussion period. So you can begin forming your own thoughts and ideas or questions or comments. This is one of my thoughts and it's called number two.

I've never been told by any person what to say. I would say it this way though. I've asked. I've asked.

I want to talk a little about understanding. What can I say? What could I really say in a sermon? And I've only been told over the years that, you know, open your mouth and God will tell you. And if he doesn't tell it, that is his will too. That's what's been told.

At least from other servants of the Lord. That's what I have heard and been told. I have once in my life had an event of God's kingdom. I won't say what kind of event it is because it doesn't matter what it was. It was a family event and this person came to me

I have a couple of friends from work here. I'm going to preach to them. I'm going to preach to them.

It bothered me, so I went to another servant of the Word before it was my turn to serve. I told him, what do you think? I told him, in this way that opens your mouth to God and to what he wishes to do.

What if it was God? What if the family member was Christ? What if I was, I think, self-righteous? Whatever corner of my mind I drew up, they came to my mind that day. And afterwards I thought to myself that, you know, every portion of God's word that I've read, it seems like it contains law and gospel. They all do.

And some things that I say that seem so everyday to you here, brothers and sisters, as the gospel, that in Jesus' name and blood, you can believe all of your sins together, but you believe that there are people in this world that believe that that is law. Man does not have that kind of power, so to speak. And we've taken that into our hands.

And I've thought about that since, that really truly is the case. God reveals things through His servants in the way only He can reveal them. And it doesn't matter what frame of mind I think of it. And maybe perhaps I think that I'm speaking lovingly or kindly and speak words of the gospel. There's a listener out there whom God knows needs to hear the law, and they hear the law. It's plain as day.

Be open and be free. God bless the Lord. Amen.

Thank you Rick for your presentation and thoughts that you just shared. So there's been a topic presented tonight. My job wasn't really to elaborate, but to direct the traffic.

I think Rick did, in some words, describe how we got to this time.

A few words from the ROC report, which came this evening also. The ROC report has discussed topics, maybe not this one specifically, but concerns that have come before God's kingdom, and in some cases before our congregation, or maybe touching a congregation nearby.

And that we've had discussions on a monthly basis for, I would say, the past year, year and a half. And these discussions around the world, even beyond that.

It seems so timely now to set up a congregation discussion to visit about these things, maybe with the focal point of the forgiveness of sins, but it's actually one of these questions of our time.

And I would encourage all to speak freely. This is a good opportunity for us to speak what's in our heart and mind and our lives. And as we've had our discussions with our own peers or friends, maybe our brothers and sisters or brothers and sisters of faith, it's a good time to

to recall these discussions and share with us what the rest of all those questions have been discussed and the conversations we've had. So please feel free to share this evening and this good opportunity to make it and have a congregational discussion about these most important matters.

So it would be somebody who directly took the first turn, who would like to take the turn? Standing in back of the microphone, is there somebody who would like to turn?

Okay.

Maybe with some Bible verses also. If somebody wants to elaborate on something here.

These are matters of everlasting life.

I guess part of me is saying that this is a discussion for the older and whiter folks. Dale, can you flip to the next slide?

I just wanted to touch on that last question that some say is very not very interesting in the gospel, but it's a clear reminder that this is the time when we have no God left. And just those very familiar words came to me from John 20, 22 and 23.

And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and they came to them, to speak in the Holy Ghost. Whosoever seems to be in it, they remain in it to them, and whosoever seems to be in it, they retain it. I don't feel that way, because I'm too enraged with it.

that we believe this way or that way, but to me, that's really the fear that God has given us the power to preach that gospel, that it's not through us, but through God and through the Holy Ghost that's within us. But that gospel does hold that power, and when we preach the gospel of the church, it's the same as that. That is the reason that we're here. That's just one thought that came to mind.

Amen.

They'd also like to address that question in a regular way. They have both. They're now speaking in the class.

And it has been discussed that even as...

And we, when we come before the congregation of God, we come with that kind of a thought that we are before God's congregation. God's congregation, kingdom of God,

is governed by the Holy Spirit. And that when we come, we come even, as Rick said, with much fear and much trembling and much timidness. And the Apostle Paul even spoke of that, that I come before you with much fear

that we are in the presence of God's kingdom, and that if we speak that which is not according to God's will, and that which is according to God's Spirit, that we will be corrected, and that we can take care of those matters that we have spoken about in our question that I missed.

But we also come before God's kingdom with this thought that we are only the world's witness. And that we are not, what should I say, we are not verse orators. And we have not practiced

But we are, we just stay in front of a mirror, or into a microphone, or anything else, but we trust that God will reveal through His Spirit, all of us. This is what we trust. And very still,

Does anyone come to say that you, your brother, spoke wrong? Because the congregation of God is also a congregation that forgives. And they understand that they are in themselves poor.

and that the speaker who is in front of them is poor, and they have this kind of a thought that even though the words may not have come across very well, that yet there is a loving heart towards those who have come before them to speak with them.

But these questions that I ask you before us really bring fear to my heart. That this kind of bond, this kind of speech, this kind of discussions are taking place in God's kingdom.

And it is not God's spirit that brings a concision into God's kingdom because God's spirit gathers in likeness and it brings, it gathers together and it does an awesome. And so if these are the kinds of thoughts that are

And if they cannot be cared for in God's kingdom, they will certainly lead to separation or loss to those who are bringing forth these kinds of thoughts. It's difficult for me to bring these kinds of thoughts before

reminded me that I should encourage those who have these kinds of thoughts and opinions to be open. Don't speak about these things in your

I feel a little bit like Eric and that I don't really have a lot to say, but for some reason I feel like he's making me sad. I was up at camp all summer and

During one of the confirmation camps, I was having a discussion with a believing brother, and a lot of these questions came up. A lot of these ideas were brought forward, and I had never even considered them. I didn't think that, especially in our times, that they would be so prevalent. And during our discussion at [unintelligible], my spirit felt very much, like, uneasy. I didn't know what to say. I didn't...

I feel like I don't understand the scripture enough to answer this brother's questions. And it was just, like, looking at these questions, it's, again, I am very much at ease and I am very fearful as well, but I didn't realize that there was more than just this brother and this group of people he had been trying to work. But

When not knowing what to say, we end up involving a couple of teachers at ground commission and involving the public ministry as well to try to get to the bottom of what was being said. The brother that I was talking to was saying that he didn't quite 100% agree with what was said because there seemed to be many other sides to that, or confused sides in a very vague sense.

I think it was important that for those people that, or for, I guess, those of us that have these sort of misconceptions and some standings or thoughts on matters that we talk about, and not just, like, with the people that, quote, unquote, agree with us, but that we talk about it in light of God's Word and in light of

humbly speaking about what we understand because when we start to go through the Bible and say that, okay, I probably know this and I know that, we're not speaking of God's wisdom, we're speaking of man's wisdom. And man's wisdom is so much different than God's that for me to say that just because I've heard it explained this way and it makes sense in my mind that this is the way it is or especially if a mother congregation

I could be wrong, but to not think of ourselves as that world that our experience is more

It's been a pleasure to be here today. These questions were on our way home. Several guys were on their way home here and discussing this topic. A lot of the points up here were kind of brought up and talked about

It didn't seem like we had all the answers, but I just thought to point number one, my own understanding. I'm glad I'm here tonight. My understanding is not correct, but

If anyone has more secrets, we would like to hear the gospel. If you preach the gospel without a question, we would ask to kind of let you know. Or if they feel like they're doing the right thing, or if they're holding themselves enough, somebody would like to hear it.

the question that seems to be kind of brought up and brought up to me by my brother

Somebody who's not truly worth their sin, but they're aware of the words of the Gospel. Like, you can hear them from here, but what they're, that sin in which they're living, they do not wish to repent from. They've not changed their ways.

What then, what then would a believer respond to in this situation? My understanding is that if there's someone who's an unbeliever, has an opportunity to defend an unbeliever,

I'd like to hear the words of the gospel.

there to read the gospel. Such a person he is.

I don't know the details of it. That person responded that we should preach the gospel to them anyways because

The words of the Gospel made open their heart to truly repent later on. And I didn't know, I guess I didn't know the answer to that.

My mom, she repented from the world when she was 14. And she told me this past summer that she had first, I guess, heard about living with a baby or something, her sister. And they asked her if she wanted to believe, and she said yeah. And there was a few months' time where maybe she went to church or something, but she didn't herself ever ask for forgiveness.

But then a few months later, she went to her sister and asked herself for the gospel. And she said, she told me she thinks that's what she actually wanted. I don't understand how that works. But perhaps, I don't know.

it was just brought, or perhaps God was working on her heart, I don't know, I can't explain it, but anyway, um, like, she did first accept the gospel, and then a few months later asked for herself, and she told me that day that she asked herself, she, uh, she did some, like, she remembers, like, specific changes in her life, and so forth, so, um,

Maybe like if you say the spirit guiding her to put some things away and so forth. Thank you. Thank you.

It's not the easiest thing to do, to talk in front of a group like this, but all I can say is how I believe. And I can't think of a situation

gospel to someone. Duomas Henning kept a very beautiful presentation in April at Easter time regarding forgiveness. In that presentation he talked about this young boy who was all excited about going out and preaching the gospel and

I don't remember the exact situation. I don't remember exactly how to explain it. From what I understand, it was a farmer of some sort. This little boy had known this individual for quite some time. And the little boy just asked him, hey, can I preach that gospel to you?

forgiveness of sins. And the man said, well, what's it going to hurt? He had no understanding for his sinfulness, his unbelief. He was in darkness. But this little boy preached the gospel to him. And he said that the next day, this farmer was out in the field.

He didn't know why, but he said he couldn't sit on his tractor. He was so happy. He had to get off. It was like he was too happy to just sit on that tractor seat. Now, he didn't ask for the gospel.

I don't know if he had ever heard anything about it. I'm assuming he probably didn't. But I think my point is there's power in the gospel. When somebody with the Holy Spirit preaches the gospel, those words have power. They do forgive sin.

If one comes to you asking for, you know, can I hear the gospel? Can you bless me or can you forgive my sin? I don't think we have a place to start asking. Well, are you asking for the forgiveness from heresy or unbelief? Obviously, if there's some question, is this guy, you know, because people sometimes ask,

You know, to forgive them for something they did wrong or maybe they made a mistake or something. And they're not truly asking for the gospel. Yeah, we know exactly when those situations happen. But I don't think there's, I don't think it's even right to start asking a heretic. You know, if they come and ask, can you forgive my sins? That's good enough.

Those words when preached from somebody, from a believer, we understand that there's power there. And, you know, it should be preached freely. Get that car ready.

I guess I would have to agree with what was just said there. I think it's a little bit dangerous to use our human mind and try to judge whether or not somebody is truly penitent and whether or not they're going to receive the gospel in the correct way or whether they're going to continue to do the sins that they've been doing. Um,

not fallen into the same sin over and over and over. I think everybody obviously has their own temptations, their own lackings. But I can almost guarantee that every single person in this building has fallen into a certain sin more than once. And I think it is good to ask for that Gospel every time. It's like the one...

verse or whatever in the Bible says, how often should I forgive my brother? And Jesus clearly answered, not only seven times seven, but as many as he needs. And I also think that the fact of preaching the gospel to somebody who isn't believing

believing is not a bad idea I spent a number of years in the world and one evening I went over to my mom and dad's house and my dad preached the gospel to me I wasn't believing at the time I wasn't maybe deep down I was searching but maybe God was guiding me

But I had no intentions of wanting to believe at that time. And that prick was spotting my heart. And I accepted that gospel. And here I am today, how fortunate. And had he not preached that gospel to me, because I wasn't believing,

Maybe I still wouldn't be. And I don't think it's up to us to judge who can or cannot receive the gospel. Ultimately, we are not the ones truly forgiven. That obviously is from God. But we have the power and the keys to do that. And...

to withhold from preaching the gospel to somebody I think is a dangerous slope to go on. For all my sins and doubts, can you forgive me? I am only going to tell my experience. I never did repent.

I came with the kids, and I enjoyed going with the kids. I came to church once in a while, but I really enjoyed going with the kids. And one day after church, someone just came up and put their arm around me and said, Would you like to believe? I honestly have to say I had to think about it. Did I or didn't I? I didn't plan on how it happened.

But God's ways are mysterious. And I said, yes. And after that, it was just wonderful. I mean, I wish I could go back to those days because it seemed like everything was so clear. I talked to people on the bus about it. I took people to church. And I couldn't understand what I couldn't understand. So...

My own experience was that there was no repentance. So I have a hard time with this whole topic. I guess my understanding is that

It's not our gospel, I guess. It's not our, it's not us that decides who's going to hear the gospel or need the gospel or want the gospel. We are the mouthpiece for the forgiveness of sins.

If someone asks, we don't really even think about it when we preach. The only... If God does not want those words to come, He won't give them. It's not going to be us that decides that, oh, I don't think that you want it. I think if those words don't come, it's not because of us that would be decided that we can't forgive.

But if God closes that mouth and he doesn't want that, if that person is not meant to hear that forgiveness of sins, it's not our... I mean, there may be situations like, I guess I can share. My mom, she had some situation that

She, one of her family members was with the heresy, and they were basically on their deathbed, and they asked, and mom said that the words couldn't even come. She didn't think that, no, I'm not going to preach, or no, you don't believe, or you're not repentant, or anything like that. God didn't provide those words for her.

I want to give you a little bit of a flavor of the discussions and why it's important for us to really consider this according to God's word. We can always have our own thoughts, our own wishes, but when we base it according to God's word, we might be surprised at what we find there. Just for instance, that first Bible verse up there from Joshua.

Chapter 24. It's kind of a familiar place of God's Word. If you look at a few verses previous to that, it's a verse that I'm sure you'll all remember. It says, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land ye dwell.

But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. So that's the beginning point for this discussion. That's what Joshua told the people. And what the people responded to him was something to this effect. I'm going to say it in language that I believe that it says it here.

I put this into the same frame of mind as, for instance, heresy. I can't see it any other way, dear brothers and sisters. If I'm wrong, explain to me. Show me my error. I don't understand. I really, really, truly believe that we always forgive. I want to always forgive. In fact, I've never ever in my life

To this point, I'm presented with a case where someone's come to me and I've sat there and wondered, hmm, should I forgive or should I not? Never ever. I've always forgiven. But there are cases, even in scriptures, that...

This is where the questions come. So when we've been asked questions and we try to respond with that, I only have answers from God's word. I don't have anything from my daily life. Nothing matches this. It doesn't make sense to me. And I would rather believe something else. So what the people said, if you read those verses, and this is what I believe it says in my words, we want to serve God.

We also want to serve our old gods at the same time. Did Joshua forgive them? In the 19th verse, Joshua says to the people, you cannot serve the Lord.

I'm going to sound like a strange reply. You cannot serve the Lord. He is an holy God. He's a jealous God. He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. I can't find myself ever saying that, dear brothers and sisters, but it's God's word. What happens?

It says, if you forsake the Lord and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt and consume you. After that, he hath done you good. The people heard that and said, no, we don't want that. We want to serve the Lord. When the gospel was preached, he says, therefore put away the strange gods which are among you.

What can we say to those parts of God's Word that explain in those kinds of terms? It is what it is. But on the other hand, dear brothers and sisters, as I said, in my own life, I've never experienced that. Ever. And I hope to never experience that. In fact, I've experienced the exact opposite. I said this at that minister's meeting in Finland. One of my experiences. I grew up...

at the end of the last heresy. And I remember some of those meetings from back then, and I know this is part of this discussion. Some recall those kinds of discussions and wonder what happened there. And I can't claim to recall them word for word, and that's not my point. My point is that in the middle of those discussions, what happened is people were

scared about the use of keys of binding. One man took a turn to speak. I'll never forget it. When I think about it, it's like I'm there again.

He said, after listening to all the discussion about repentance and binding and all those kinds of things, he says he could only think of one thing that he doesn't even know if he repented 20 years ago the right way. In the middle of those discussions, there wasn't a thought.

to say, those were the trying times. Those were the difficult times. There wasn't the thought to say, you know, hmm, should we forgive him or should we not? My dear brother took the mic and he says, my dear brother, do you want to believe right now? And he said, yes, with all my heart, I want to believe right now. He said, believe the gospel.

It's pretty simple. If you want to believe, you can believe. The gospel was preached to them. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. What matters is right now. But we have to base our faith, when we talk about discussions, on what God's word says. God's word is what God's word is. And so some would say, and even in discussions that we've had, well, that was Old Testament time.

That doesn't even matter anymore. So you go to words of Jesus. I found so much comfort in them because you know the world is, in its spirituality, will tell you something like this, that even the Apostle Paul isn't worthy of listening to. The only words that they would listen to are words of Jesus.

So let's go to the words of Jesus. What does he say? He, for instance, talks about a relationship between brothers and sisters in faith. In fact, it's that Luke 17 reference. It says to rebuke your brother. Tell him his sin.

Or do we just let someone sin and say, oh, that's okay. Believe the gospel. Jesus doesn't say that. He says, rebuke your brother, and then he says, if he repent. My dear brothers and sisters,

Those words were written in scriptures long before we ever began to think about these kinds of discussions. What do we believe about them? We can believe what we want. We can believe God is love and... It says, if he repents.

Penitence and repentance are connected, you could say. Repentance is to turn. Turn away from that evil that you're doing and change your life. If you repent. If you don't repent, don't forgive him. It seems so simple in my mind that I don't know how to talk about it otherwise. It matters, for instance, about heresy. I don't know...

I've never spoken to someone heresy who's come to me and says, can I believe my sins forgiven? Never. But dear brothers and sisters, it happens in daily life. For instance, in Finland, and I've heard examples even at a speaker's meeting, and it felt good to my heart the way it was explained there. The man did not want to believe as we do.

That speaker brother knew that. He did not want to believe. It's just like in the case of Joshua. He wanted to hold to his other gods. But he wanted to, he said kind of in this way to this servant, that can't we just be brothers? Just forgive me. He wasn't repenting of anything. He just wanted to be, he wanted to feel like he was the same group, even though he wasn't.

So I can only, in my mind, base it off of these kinds of portions of God's Word. It's been convincing to me. I have no other way to say it. What has been taught to me and what I see with my own eyes in Scripture tells me that. But on the other hand, I will say that never in my life have I seen that.

I hope to never. But when I answer questions, when someone has called to ask me about that, that's what I say. I don't have another answer. I can't make up another answer, even though it would feel good to me. It would be nice for me to say that. Yeah, just whatever, just say the words, in Jesus' name and blood, and everything will be just fine.

it would make life a whole lot easier if I could just wipe away parts of God's word and let it go by. But this is the flavor of the discussion that happens. And when I speak about these things, as I've said again, I'll say it a third time,

I have never had this happen to me in my life. And when someone calls me, they tell me that I'm withholding forgiveness from people. And I've never, ever done that. I'm answering questions based on what I believe is in God's word. And that's what Jesus even says. For instance, when we talk about keys of binding, it says in there that if he does not hear the church, hold him as a heathen and a publican. Do I really want to do that in my own mind?

That's not the easy way. I would rather just say, you know, leave all your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood, and maybe sometime you'll understand it. That's what I would like to say. It feels good to me. All the drama is gone and all the... perhaps angry and bitter feelings that I couldn't...

but it isn't what God's Word says. Some months ago, after I had heard this question,

Question one. At home, one evening, I was there with two or three of our children, and we were discussing it. And I don't know, I can only look at it in a simple way, whether that's correct or not, but my daughter was

We were talking about that, how God sometimes might use, might withhold forgiveness to a certain person at a certain time or something. And one of my daughters said,

But I can't even think of that. Like I couldn't ever withhold forgiveness if someone would ask me. And I said, no, you don't need to. Don't even worry about it. You can freely preach. We do in God's kingdom. We freely preach to anyone who asks. You can believe all of your sins forgiven. We happily and gladly and thankfully preach.

But I said, we don't know if there's one time or a certain time that it could be a situation where the heart isn't right. But you don't have to worry. If you're not to speak something, God will withhold those words and you won't speak them. You can freely preach the gospel. If the time happens like that, you won't be given words to speak. And I don't think we have to worry about it.

You know, we, I've had the same experience as Rick, too. Not a minister, so I haven't been approached as many times, of course, but, you know, we've always freely preached, and, but I think we can trust. We don't need to worry, or, even to the speeches tonight, and, you know, and I think it was our son Andy back there, and

I think that time when you were in our house and your dad preached the gospel, I think God knew your heart. It wasn't planned. He didn't plan to preach the gospel. I don't think ahead of time, but somehow the gospel was preached. And I think we can, I don't think we have to try to

think of all these situations. What if, or could it be that, or we're withholding forgiveness because we are God's mouthpieces. And when we trust and believe in that way, we can trust that He gives the words, He gives us even those words to speak. I don't know if that's too simple an understanding, but that's how I believe in

That's how I told my daughter that you can, you freely preach, freely preach and God guides. This brings a situation to my mind.

I grew up in a family where my mom was believing, my dad was not. And my dad was not, was a very bitter man. He was very unfriendly to the believers. [family details omitted] And she wanted to bring us to church. Well, [health details omitted] we knew that he

wouldn't be coming out. And my brother asked him if he wanted to believe. And he accepted the gospel. Then in his final hours, my unbelieving brother, who was very active in his church,

[health details omitted] whatever. And he made comment to that. But in my mind, I just thought that was God protecting him. That my brother, my unbelieving brother, could not talk about his church, his religion, whatever to my dad. That God was protecting him with living faith. And one of my siblings, bleeding siblings,

many months after my dad passed away, asked for forgiveness. In her heart, she really had a heart to understand her believing that my dad could have gone to heaven. And then right around that same time, my believing cousin had had a dream that he suddenly did it as an angel.

I mean, he was mine, and he was only... I guess I just truly feel, even though it just seems so impossible, that my dad couldn't die believing. Think what I did. It's not possible. It's God's. It's God's hands.

I just had a discussion with some ladies just in the last couple of days because I wasn't aware of any of these things that were being discussed and stuff. But I guess I just had a hard time understanding where the questions were, why people were questioning these things. But I think it's wonderful that

if they are, that they are being discussed. It's not that you're a bad person, that you're wondering about these. That's not at all. We have these questions sometimes, and this is the best place to discuss it. And so I just hope everybody will bring their feelings out and discuss what they think. But as far as some of the things that I've just found so much comfort in this, in song 409,

And it just says, it explains it so simply, and it's based on the Bible. And yea, as I live, the Father says, I would not have the sinner's death, but that he turn from error's way, repent, and put his sin away. And therefore Jesus gave command, go forth and preach in every land, to contrite hearts, forgive their sin, or Satan's strength will work with

my work will win. All those whose sins ye thus remit, I truly pardon and acquit. And those whose sins ye shall retain, condemned and guilty they remain. What thou shalt find, that bound shall be. What ye shall loose, that shall be free. The Holy Ghost with you I leave, that makes the dead arise and breathe.

Just as the wind the Spirit blows, the word is preached as water flows. In softened hearts rejoicing sounds, the seed can sprout in fertile ground. And flesh shall never understand that God such power gave to man. The lowly servant Christ has sent is but his humble instrument. Although the preaching of the cross is foolishness unto the lost, in hearts the Spirit sets alight.

It is his wisdom and his might. And it just goes on, this last verse, this balm which has our hearts relieved. We freely give as we received. By grace, by faith, through Christ alone, the gospel's strength will take us home. And like so many others have said, like Laurie just said too, that I don't think this is something we have to worry about, that...

Never have I either thought, oh, I wonder if we should forgive this person or that person. But it has happened. It has happened. And when it has happened, the mouths of the congregation were closed. Nothing was said. And that in itself is so powerful because who else but God could close that many mouths?

I mean, it just seems like if it wasn't the work of God, some people would have preached the forgiveness, some would not have. And, I don't know, it's just, it's just what I think. Thank you. Hand up front here, Andrew. Okay. Nathan and Marston in front.

discuss these things with a heart and mind of prayer to God that open these things according to thy will and not my will. This manner of forgiveness, as we have heard so many times in the past year, is the very essence

But it is so precious of a matter that without God's Word we could not understand it correctly. So we have to put our mind into captivity and believe that the preaching of the Gospel

It's the work of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit will reveal the situation wherein we would withhold forgiveness. We don't have to worry about it. It's not in any of our minds to withhold forgiveness from anyone. We want to forgive.

And so the withholding of forgiveness, in my mind, would only happen if we knew very clearly someone's situation. We're very close to them, maybe a family member, maybe a dear friend. Maybe we've discussed matters of faith and many disagreements through life.

That would be the best thing we could do. And maybe we would immediately forgive them. That would be probably my response. I would bless them. But if I love them, if I love their undying soul, I would then

Christ if I loved them. If I didn't love them or didn't care, I would just leave. But that isn't according to God's will. Love is the first fruit of faith. If we truly love our brothers and sisters and friends, we care mostly for their undying soul. So we wouldn't leave it simply at that.

But truly, we would discuss it with them, and oh, what a joyous moment it would be that they wanted to begin a new life in Christ. But if it wasn't so, they didn't want to change.

Would you then greet them with God's peace as you leave? No. Because you're not one. The Spirit of God is one. It isn't many. Let us not get confused over this, dear brothers and sisters. It's so simple. A little child understands it, believes it, preaches it,

And of course we want to preach the gospel. Every sermon that's spoken in God's kingdom, the gospel is preached. And all who want to believe can believe. Even the unbelievers can believe in that gospel. But the fruits of faith will show. We don't have to go start looking and asking questions to see if somebody...

Preciously, sincerely blaming the fruits that may be shown. Are there fruits He showed more than? These questions and concerns that we saw up there at the end are very troubling. Very troubling. But those questions are being discussed in God's Kingdom. Amen.

If you are one of those who have these kind of questions for your heart and mind, there is yet love and grace and forgiveness for all those sins and doubts. Do not doubt God's kingdom.

There is no question that God's kingdom

It certainly has been good to hear, to be here, to hear the speeches that have taken place. I guess being on the board here in Rockford, I've been part of those discussions that we've had at the board level.

about these questions that have come. I have not been part of those discussions, so many of these things that have been discussed have been from what other people have mentioned. And in this matter of forgiveness, we have discussed it, as Dale alluded to many, many times,

probably for the last year, year and a half, many, many hours of discussion. And it's been good that us board members and speakers who have been there in these discussions have felt unity in our understanding with these matters. I think about that one word up there that says hypothetical.

And we talk about, when we talk about hypothetical reasons, and that's one thing that we have continually mentioned, that we can't just talk about hypothetical reasons, because they're not real. And so, the question is stemming from, would there ever be a time where forgiveness could be withheld?

I believe that that is the case. As so many people have mentioned before and I have experienced in my own life, the Gospel has never been withheld. It has always been preached whenever anybody has asked. I love the one part of the Church Law of Christ where it talks about binding

I have never seen that myself. Yet I've heard of different situations and that there was a time that maybe binding was done incorrectly. And those who were involved with those matters also had to be cared for as well. I think of a time that I heard

Toronto congregation where somebody was correctly bound. Where they were brought before the congregation after they had been approached about their matters. And when they were brought before the congregation, they still were unrepentant. And that person had to be bound.

This was many, many years ago, back in the 80s. That man was bound for many, many years. The gospel was not preached to him because he would not repent from his condition. If the gospel would have been preached, we would have been in violation of God's word.

And they would have just created confusion. I believe they would have created confusion in that man's heart. That I'm not repentant, but yet they're still telling me to believe my sin's forgiven. And that I can still come to the hearing of God's word and be as one of them, even though I don't repent of my sin.

Isn't this act of binding also an act of love as well? To help that person to see their condition apart. That they are outside of God's kingdom. So when we talk about forgiveness, I think it's very few, or it's very seldom that forgiveness happens.

has ever been withheld. But would there ever be a case, just in that particular act of binding, that the gospel was withheld? Yes, it is possible. And I hope I never have to withhold the gospel. I hope my mouth is never shut. I hope that whenever anybody asks of me, I can freely preach and my mouth will be opened.

And it's certainly a topic that I'm glad we can discuss, and it's certainly been very good to be here today. It keeps coming into my mind about this, whether we are withholding the gospel or not,

And I think, I like to think about it a little bit differently that I'm, I don't like to worry about if I would have to withhold the gospel because it's not me, it's God withholding the gospel or preaching the gospel. So if people are worried about, you know, maybe they're thinking that certain ministers or board members are saying,

sometimes you don't preach the gospel, I don't think that, I don't think we need to worry about it that way. And it's not, I mean, God's word is God's word and we are just simple human beings and we don't understand everything in God's word and I don't think that we necessarily need to. I think that

Maybe if we're trying to pick it apart and understand it, I don't know. I feel like that's where I get doubts is when I start thinking about it with my human mind rather than just believing it. And maybe that portion about the wise virgins that I don't 100% understand, but

Let it be. Just believe. Don't worry about what that literally means, I guess. And I think everybody, I don't know, I kind of feel like everybody's been kind of saying the same thing here. That, you know, it's not up to us who we...

preach the gospel to her or not, that if something happens like that, it will be God who decides, not us. So we can be free and not worry. Pray that we can be preserved on the narrow way. Can I hear the gospel as well?

Just one follow-up to what I had mentioned, that in that Toronto congregation, that after that man was born, it was a number of years later, he was able to receive the grace of repentance. He was able to see his condition of heart, and that if there would have been confusion there, he may have died and been sick. But yet, he was able to realize he was...

His conditional heart, he was able to believe that he died with us. We're getting on to 8.30. We've got a couple names on the list still. If there would be any others that would like a speaking turn before we close for the evening, raise your hand and I'll get your name on there.

So I was thinking here in this discussion, what came to my mind, it seems like so often we want to be wise as God. To be able to think like Him and to act like Him.

seems like that's such a slippery slope to be on to be able to put ourselves into god's position and make decisions and i think of examples in the scripture you know where we're trying to figure it out with our reason we would we would never know we couldn't figure it out because we think about nicodemus came and he talked to jesus he wanted

to understand God's kingdom with his words, but with his mind he struggled against it, and Jesus kind of washed away his doubts and sins in that moment. We know Jesus had that power, but he didn't. Then the sinful woman that was caught in the very act of adultery

He couldn't condemn her. And the wise Pharisees couldn't condemn her either because of their own sins. But Jesus was perfect. He forgave the woman. He said, sin no more. We heard this morning through our brother of ten lepers that were traveling on the road. Jesus cleansed all ten. Only one will be returned.

There are so many different examples like that in the Bible, even right to the very end when there was the two thieves on the cross. One received the grace of repentance, and the other continued to rail on Jesus and to condemn Him even though Jesus had done no sin.

So we can see in the Bible there's different examples. And it's for this reason, I think, brothers and sisters, that we would understand that this is God's work. It's not any man's work. When we look at that second question there,

It's troubling to me that somebody would think that way. If somebody, I think, came to me and said that I should keep a sermon on such and such a text, I would be fearful. I would not want to speak on that text when speaking in God's kingdom. Come with that prayer.

That what the children of God are praying for to the Heavenly Father, that's the word that God will give. That it would be His word and that it would be a word that would comfort and uplift those who are struggling in faith. Perhaps they need comfort. Perhaps they've had a question. I've had that happen sometime when someone's come afterwards and said,

I've had that question for so many years and today God answered it. I didn't know that I was giving any answers. In fact, I felt I had no answers. So brothers and sisters, I think you can trust in this that we don't follow the direction of man. We come prayerfully and timidly to speak and it's not the easiest thing to do and

I just was on a speaking trip this year to Finland for 26 days, and during that time there was 20-some sermons that I left wondering, what will I speak? Will God hear words? And each day, at the end of the day, I was so thankful that God had given some words, even though they felt weakened words.

And in the morning when I woke up again with the fear there that now I have to serve again today, what will God give today? So we serve in weakness. We serve in poorness. And our hope and our desire is to preach the gospel and it seems like

In my life that has always been, oh it has been as the gospel has been freely preached but I do know also and I think I've even spoken of one very sorrowful time when the congregation had to bind one who was traveling in darkness and wanted in that way to greet everybody with God's peace but

didn't feel any need to have sins forgiven, believing in a wrong way that they had received the grace of forgiveness years ago as a young person and now sort of had an open doorway to heaven and could live however they wanted the rest of their life.

And for that person, it was important that they could read with God's peace. We had to speak, and I say we very weakly because I was so young, but the congregation could tell the brother that that's not how he believed. But if he wanted to have his things through, then we would preach that gospel. But that's not what they wanted to do.

So, brothers and sisters, I just would want to encourage that. To not get hung up on trying to figure things out with our own mind, not try to create situations that aren't there, but to

First of all, endeavor to believe personally your sins, for given in Jesus' name, precious blood. And then believing in that way, trusting in the Holy Spirit to do His work. Endeavor to help your brothers and sisters in faith. Also to encourage them with the same gospel that

In that way that we are able to forgive one another our sins. They forgive us and we forgive them. And we carry each other then with that gospel to the shores of heaven. How community is being preached when people are talking about ministers have different beliefs. Is it really different beliefs or

we have to say and i i would be the first to say this that there are so many things in god's kingdom i don't understand but i believe if the congregation has an understanding that's what i want to understand as well and it can happen that i can

err in that way that I would say something that I didn't understand correctly, but that doesn't mean that's how I believe. It might mean that I've had a wrong understanding of the matter and I want to believe and I want to be cared for. And I would hope that you would care for me.

And I want to, I believe, this evening, can I believe my many sins and doubts for God. In Jesus' name, amen.

I think Lars had kind of touched on what I was thinking too. I guess from my previous comment I wanted to be clear that I do believe that we also have the keys to find and I also pray that I'm never in the situation where I need to find somebody when I guess it's not, it wouldn't be me but

I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess I haven't recalled too much talking on, you know, how somebody should be bound, or maybe I just haven't heard, but my understanding is that it's not one person individually binding somebody. Like Lars had mentioned, up in Toronto, I believe that's maybe the same

situation that I remember vaguely hearing. And, you know, it was between some individuals and then they went to the board and then went in front of the congregation. Then that individual was bound with their sin. So I guess, I don't know if somebody has a more understanding on how

You know, if my understanding there is correct or not on the actual binding. I certainly don't feel like I have it.

Like I said before, I think it's important that we just forgive. We forgive first, and then truth comes after that. After grace comes truth. We forgive somebody, and then we teach. Grace first, then truth.

We see somebody straying. It is our responsibility. It is the loving thing to do.

forgive. I'm not saying to use the gospel as a cover to cover up sin. That is absolutely not what I have said. Or how that's absolutely not how it should be. I think what dear brother Rod said is true.

take the place, want to take the place of God and knowing that we don't know people's hearts. We don't know what's inside their hearts. We don't know what that person's kind of thing to want. I go back to the parable of the sower. Jesus talks about the sower and how the sower just

basically liberally applied that seed on the ground. Some seed fell on the rocky ground. There's four different soils and some of them would grow up and then the sun would come out, dry them out. But then there was also those areas where there was good soil. And we don't know where that good soil is. Maybe that good soil

I think it's just, maybe not the, it's maybe not our place to decide.

If someone is penitent or not, obviously if we see somebody's life or what they're doing is completely contrary to God's word, we need to say something. We need to use the truth of Christ. Eventually, if we need to, we bind someone. This binding is to draw a line and tell that person in a very loving, but very full way that you are outside of God's kingdom. That you must believe.

that's somebody, that's that person rejecting, rejecting God's word and God's will, and rejecting the gospel. But if that person comes and asks, can I believe my sins for the good, who are we to question that? I think it's, in that situation, it's just,

that gospel through its work. Cheryl, we've heard to that Psalm 409 where Jesus had given the command, go forth and preach.

So that's pretty straightforward there in my mind. And the last time we had a discussion about this, I think it was St. John's time, one of the brothers had used an example which was clear to me, I guess,

natural example, he compared it to having keys in his pocket that could be used to distribute to anybody that wanted them. So those keys are freely distributed and whether somebody uses that key to open a door or unlock a door is up to them.

respect to the gospel that the hearing, in my mind, the hearing of the gospel doesn't free one, but it's receiving and accepting that gospel that you heard is what frees you from sin. I guess we've heard some examples of that. So, I think one of the, perhaps one of the problematic areas that

Some are troubled with this. You know, when we say that, for example, we know this person is, you know, what do you say, in this sin or that sin or whatever, and doesn't really want to have it forgiven,

the problem, the problematic area is. I've always thought in my mind that, you know, if somebody has asked me whether they can have their sins forgiven, then I guess I've always felt, you know, I don't know what it's like not to be in that exact situation, because every situation can be like that. But I've always felt like I would respond that

If you want to believe your sins are forgiven, you certainly can't believe the bad works of Jesus and not try to put myself on the pedestal or whatever, the judgment seat. So that takes me out of that place of judgment. And, you know, I...

I've got one example. Usually I hand it out to them freely, and whether they use it or accept it is up to them. I may have had some limited thoughts, but this took me a while. Just a follow-up question.

So, I think some of these topics that, you know, retaining sins and being and losing it,

forgiveness was what held. And I think to those here, 40 years ago, and those memories have not faded. They're very clear in your minds. When, I suppose it was the late 70s, early 80s, there were false spirits.

individual members of God's kingdom, not a heretic wanting to remain and adhere to gospel. Where a person in God's kingdom could be accused of having the spirit of lenience or dryness or fusillade. And they were brought to the front of the congregation in

brought up or discussed that they had this false spirit. And I suppose it went different in different situations, but where some individuals would ask for the forgiveness. They would show penitence that they wanted to believe. And forgiveness was withheld, that the gospel was not preached.

And I just talked to various people. And in my understanding, and from what I have heard, has always been that in that time, those people that were there felt that they should have forgiven. That gospel was withheld.

Um, and it shouldn't have been. And I think the, the SRK-RN Finland, this, I guess maybe I should clarify, this wasn't specific just to God's Kingdom of America. I think Finland had a similar timeframe throughout that it went through. But I, I think it was discussed there 40 years later that

Maybe not everything's not correct, but that in a sense it went too far. That this penitence being a requirement of forgiveness in the sense that we can say that this individual has this false spirit, they're asking for forgiveness, but it's not true penitence.

And I think it was said that that had gone too far, that forgiveness shouldn't have been a question. And so I guess my kind of question was, I guess I don't understand, is that when I have heard from other people that have discussed that, remember, and I think anyone that was there 40 years ago,

clearly remember that what I heard then is that forgiveness should have been preached, that it should not have been held. But I guess I don't know if that is right. Was it in those instances, was it right that forgiveness was held in those children of God that

Jesus

We could say that the Bible says that he knew his own future.

The thing that bothers me the most is that these things that are spoken in small

And the most important questions there, some of those questions there, I guess that really, really bother me is some say there is a forgiveness in communion. And some say in other ways, other things.

no forgiveness in communion. There's only forgiveness in the name and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so, when we go to communion, if we think that we have forgiveness in communion, we are making communion a work. If we say that there's forgiveness in baptism, we're making baptism

And so, when these things are discussed in small circles, and some people in those small circles

And when one is in opposition to God's word, he doesn't believe God's word. The question we could ask is that do you believe God, do you believe in God, or do you believe God? Well, there are two different questions. The world says they believe in God.

Because God reveals himself in his presence. The question then of forgiveness of Jesus is the question. And there is forgiveness of sins. And

When we travel in Africa, or when we preach on the pulpit, preach that you believe your sins forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. There's no judgment. There's no question of repentance. You don't know the hearts of those who are listening. When we go to Africa, I went there to Africa one time, and I've met

who have been to services, and they raise their hand and they preach the gospel, I don't ask, do you have a penitent heart? That's not my position. That's not my place.

But in certain cases, and we can take these examples in the Bible, and the last question on the previous page. And we can say, well, this forgiveness will have an answer. And so we can say that forgiveness is never with God. Saul was rejected. He was rejected by God.

And when he asked Samuel to go with him, Samuel said, I cannot go with you. God said, if Samuel didn't judge that, God judged that. And he prompted, or he told Samuel through his spirit, he could not go with Saul. And we know the end of Saul. He fell on his own soul. Esau...

wouldn't find a replacement of repentance. Even though he sought it as a life of sin,

how lately sermons have been pulled from the archives. There's hundreds, perhaps thousands of sermons in the archives. Who's going through the archives and looking at all those sermons and wondering, should these be foldershipped? Where's that committee that's looking at these things that

that are saying, well, should this sermon go in the archives or should that sermon go in the archives? Where are those? Then the question of why haven't these issues been brought up in the congregation as a whole? They haven't. They've been covered. They've been talked about.

about it at Lutzer's camp. People say there wasn't unity at that last Lutzer's camp. As far as I know, there was unity 100% at that camp. But if somebody was in disagreement, they certainly didn't talk. And so this is what Satan would like to have us do, is talk in small circles and talk about things that are not true.

and spread that amongst others who are willing to believe those lies of sin. When we look at that scripture, when we look at that journey through the wilderness, what happened when the people rose up against the chosen of God? The chosen, those who have been chosen,

Did Moses want to be a leader? Did he ask to be a leader? He resisted. But yet God chose him. And when the children of Korah rose up against God, or rose up against Moses and against Aaron, they rose up against God's chosen.

Those princes of the people, those 250 who rose up against Moses. It says that the earth woke them up and swallowed them alive. And then the following day, a congregation or someone in the congregation blamed that on Moses. And God sent a plague.

Amongst the people there were 23,000 people who died of that plague. God does not put up with people who are opposing Him or opposing His chosen.

Those who are on the board of directors of the LLC are from all areas of the congregation. And they haven't chosen to be there. But the congregations have elected trusted brothers to represent them in the LLC. And they do that work in importance and in weakness and not as lords over the congregation, as Peter writes in the fifth chapter, that be ye not lords

And so these are the things that bother me is that when people work in these small groups and they spread lies,

They're causing confusion, they're causing dissension, and they're causing us separation from the kingdom. And if these things continue, it leads to mercy, even if it did in 1973. God cleanses his kingdom when these times come.

And those who are in opposition to God's kingdom will find themselves on the other side of God's kingdom. And they receive grace.

43.

Right across the aisle.

I guess I don't really, I don't really know what, what, I don't know. I don't really know how to express my thoughts here, but, but I, that was at the camps at McKay and I would have joined.

that there is question over matters that seem so simple to me. When it comes to forgiving, we just simply preach the gospel and not worry about whether their heritage is right or not. We should just worry about how

and first take care of the beam that's in my old eye or something like that. It's just, those questions probably made fun. But yeah, it's been so good to be here and be reassured that there is, for the most part, unity in the mother and the mother-grandmother relationship. The mother is always right.

And, you know, in whatever ways that God works, we may never, we will never totally understand God's ways, but I think we can simply believe that when you guys can figure out how to make it to heaven.

First of all, I didn't think to ask if I could have my son's review. I had quite a few thoughts. I'm sure he was everyone, but it seems like many of them I can't.

gather my thoughts together on quite a few of the points. So I'd just like to speak of this, that it seems, for most of my life, the enemy of the soul will work to

pluck away those on the outside edges and the fringes of God's kingdom. And that's still true today. But especially now in these recent times we've experienced how Satan has desired to attack and to cause confusion about very central tenets in understanding the doctrine on that

Either way that the enemy works, if the enemy is successful, it solves our problems. And neither way is any more dangerous than the other for the believers because if we lose faith individually to our own sin or in heresy because of our sinfulness,

we are still shut out from the whole of heaven. I think it's important that we stop and just consider that point, that let us not battle each other. Let us battle against sin. Let us battle against our own minds.

the world, and the enemy of the souls. We are surrounded in a kingdom of believers, faulty though they may be, yet pardoned sinners. So many times when I've heard some of these discussions going on,

There's been various aspects that I've found out that has been spoken to that things have been spoken of that are not actually true. And the enemy of the souls has been able to work in these ways to break love amongst the believers. There was a time back

in the Old Testament, where the nation of Judah was surrounded in the case, and it's in 2 Chronicles, and the case seemed so desperately hopeless. But what they did, is what we're doing tonight, is they all gathered together, and I would like to just read some of the words that they were encouraged with.

Be not afraid, nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude. For the battle is not yours, but God's. You shall not need to fight in this battle. Set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the Lord with you. O Judah and Jerusalem, fear not, nor be dismayed. Tomorrow go against them, for the Lord will be with you.

We have a God who remembers us, who protects us, and wants us to serve him. When the enemy causes doubts that the case is hopeless, be assured that it is not hopeless.

The gospel is still the same power as it did yesterday, and it will be there tomorrow if it is needed then. And it's the same gospel that can also care for any matter, including that has troubled God's kingdom, including, and I would like to especially say tonight, for...

Those matters that have tried and maybe broken the love. If you have found yourself in the place where the conversations have turned harsh to me and spoken evil, critical words, there's gospel for that. Those matters can be put away. And in it, then we can continue

to visit about faith matters with a correct heart and not be left troubled to speak to each other with a heart of bitterness. If we're bitter for any reason, we are in sin. But we have a loving Savior who, even for those matters,

So I just want to encourage everybody tonight, no matter what errors you have found yourself in, to believe and trust that we have a good God that he will protect and guide us. Well, Andrew brings the mic back. I think Robert Eisen is the next on the list. The time is dwindling.

approaching midnight, I think. Maybe after this next conference, I still have several names on the list, and it's becoming obvious to me that we still have a lot to talk about, and it's important that we do talk about it, but at the same time, I think we need to think about closing it down, so maybe after Robert's comments, I would ask Randy to close the evening with his comments and a closing prayer, if that's okay with everybody here.

Well, with that being said, I work second shift, so I'm good to go for another good eight hours. But if you go back to the previous page... Yeah, that one. I believe in 1 Corinthians it says, I planted a ball of water and God gave the increase. To me, that...

I heard it said tonight, so that tells me that with grace follows truth. So, going to question one there. It doesn't say it, but I...

it says reasons hypothetical reasons which is plural more than one the only reason I've ever found or discussed was this heretic from the Gundigandas if they come up to me and say how we're alike and then ask to believe I believe for myself that I would want to forgive them and I also believe that

If I can't forgive them, then it's not myself not forgiving them. So, faith is hard enough for me, so I'm just going to try to err on the side of forgiveness. As far as binding and loosening and all that, I don't know much about that.

I'll use myself. If I commit sin and don't accept the consequence or want to have it taken care of, then I use that binding key on myself. Nobody else can take my faith away from me. That's personal.

You know, so when the congregation has a meeting, you know, after lots of caretaking or whatever the process, two or three, and then bringing forth the mother, I think that's, on the congregational side, that's just a meeting or

church goes through as a whole to remind everybody else that we no longer greet this person because they use the key of binding on themselves. They stop believing. I don't know. I guess if I'm wrong, it's a little late tonight. Anybody can call me or look me up and clue me in because I'd like to know if I'm wrong.

That's all I have. Maybe I would ask, unless somebody has a pressing issue they'd like to

I'm part of the Monaga congregation. I'm not really part of this congregation, but these things have troubled me for a long time, listening to the different things, because I remember the 80s as if they were yesterday. And not the caretakers, not the flaws. You know, I think it's easy to think that the caretakers had issues with

But the congregation also, many of the people in the congregations had issues. And a lot of us got caught up in that same thing. We trust that everyone who has passed on has died preciously believing. But I remember the fear. That's what I remember about those meetings, was the fear. Because if you

If you weren't in agreement with what was going on, you were automatically in a false spirit. Well, I shouldn't say automatically, but that's probably where you would end up. And so some of this stuff really reminds me of the 80s in that I've heard discussions where people have not been on the scene

path and they're told they're in a false spirit. That reminds me of those times and so it makes me even more troubled because during those times there was all these false spirits that were supposedly going around in Finland. I actually just read an article that I requested that the SVK put out and in there it talks about those false spirits that people were in and that was wrong with them.

they weren't in those false spirits and that those false spirits actually covered up sins that should have, you know, could have been taken care of, you know, in some manner. Say that you were listening to music or something, all of a sudden you're in a freedom of the flesh. It was a phenomena in the 70s and 80s.

probably started, I mean, according to that article, it started in Finland, but it only came here. But it talked about symptoms of those times, and those times were like public repentance and humiliation and spiritual abuse, and that was a time where the same thing was that these people knew right, but it turned out that they also were wrong

And so, like, as believers, we have to all be watchmen. We have to all know that, and like even in this, you know, there's some disagreements, but really everyone here wants to be a believer at the end of the day. So we shouldn't just talk in our little groups. We should talk to those that we disagree with. And yeah, we all want to be right.

But we have to remember that we don't want to put fear in people so that they don't dare to say what they think, because what better place to be wrong than in church? I was just talking to my daughter not too long ago, and she and a friend of hers had been talking, and they remember the withholding.

One of my daughter's friends said she remembers this person up there, and he was asking for forgiveness, and they didn't preach forgiveness. And in her mind, she was thinking, well, he must not be talking loud enough. Talk louder. They'll hear you if you talk louder. So it's like it wasn't just my generation that was affected by those times. It was these people that are in their late 30s, early 40s,

and who remember those times, they might not remember all of them, but I wish that every congregation would read that article in their congregation and talk about it because like there were people in the Wolf Light congregation that after those meetings were over were never the same, never. They were never the same. No, we didn't lose them, but their personality,

Just they became very quiet, very in the background, they've been fun people. It was devastating to them what happened and it made a big impact on them. It took our congregation years before we had the freedom to say how we were feeling. We had to work really hard at it.

When they talk about withholding, that is my biggest fear. That's what comes to my mind right away. Are we gonna go back to those days when we decide if someone's repentant enough? Because to this day, I still don't know why they didn't preach forgiveness, what they were waiting for, and I didn't come out of that. I didn't come out of those meetings.

smelling like a rose, I have no doubt that very many of us did. We all said and did, or many of us said and did things that were wrong. But by not talking about it openly and not talking about the spiritual use and the humiliation through those times, to me we can learn from the past. But I suppose that's my biggest worry.

is that I don't want to go back to those days. I want us to learn from them. Because it's been so nice for so many years. And it makes me fearful when we... And so, yeah, you know, I have been in those small groups that have discussed. I've never heard... In the groups I've discussed, there's never been people named. It's always been about issues, but...

which is good because it's always good for us to know our Bible. But it's just like some things are just so puzzling that I just, I simply want to believe. Oh, God forgive me.

I guess I'll just add my last comment that at the presentation in the spring, I think it was Jim Frantti that gave it in his opening slide as a child, and he asked the congregation why God uses a child. Because we want to have a childlike faith, and forgiveness is the foundation of our faith, and if we believe that it comes from God, it's hard to understand that forgiveness

we're being given some situations where we wouldn't forgive. If we would just trust that God would clearly show us in those individual circumstances, then just trust it comes from God and not from within ourself.

I see people leaving and some people shaking their heads, so I'm inclined. It's been a long night. I would say if there's a need, we could come back to it another time. But there's been a lot said tonight, and we get to the point, I know myself, I'm having a hard time focusing now, so I think it's time to close the evening. I would hope that's the case. I'm going to make the decision to do that.

And I think there's a lot of food here for discussion afterwards. This has been a really good discussion and much needed, I think. And I certainly appreciate the openness that people have shared tonight to contribute to the discussion. So if we can, I would ask Randy then to... Is it okay if you come up here, Randy? Randy will close.

Brothers and sisters, we've had a wonderful evening. And we thank the Heavenly Father for this time when we can really speak and share our thoughts and visit about some of these questions which have troubled many. I think we've all hoped and prayed that when we can gather

have heard things, wondered, would find clarity and assurance for how we believe as God's children. I do have many, many thoughts listening this evening. We have a hard time pulling them all together. But to just mention a couple of things.

This question of forgiveness as it's been circulating for recent months, I think it's important to remember how this question began. It began in this way by saying, would there ever be a time that forgiveness would not be preached to one who asks for it?

It has made for an absolute answer. And that is where many, I think, and I would say the meetings that I have taken, have not felt we can say, never. And we've heard tonight,

There were examples. And God has, he has closed the mouth, closed the doors. It is his word. And we heard graciously this evening how we can place our trust in God and know such a

that He would reveal it in time and that we don't have to analyze it and somehow establish the criteria because it's His work and it is time. And also remembered how we believe that the

work of the lord and savior jesus christ continues today is the work of the holy spirit and his congregation and so when we think of this matter of forgiveness how jesus forgave and gave this command and the keys for his own to

the work of our Lord Jesus Christ, the work of God that he has accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit in his congregation. And so the concerns have been around this question, not of an unconditional forgiveness, but when there's a conditional repentance.

then we react. And I've thought of this similarity to preaching God's peace, that the kingdom of God has borders and we welcome all

into God's kingdom, preaching that forgiveness of sins to those who would be given grace to believe. But yet, those who do not believe, we haven't accepted them as brothers and sisters of faith. We haven't preached or spoken words of God's peace to them. And I've thought of...

how Paul has written in Romans, this portion was spoken of at minister's camp on a couple of occasions, where as he ends his letter, he mentions many brothers and sisters in faith, says to salute them with a holy kiss. But then he says, now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses

contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly, and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience has come abroad unto all men, I am glad therefore on your behalf, but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good and simple concerning evil."

And so, when we think of this question, concern has been in matters of spiritual defilement that we would, in some way, give someone false assurance in a false faith that they are having accepted. And I remember years ago, I was young,

visiting a great aunt of mine who was in a worldly Lutheran church and so, so troubled over the family members who were believers and couldn't accept her as a sister in faith. At one time as I visited her, I was leaving, she said to me,

She said, I believe you're a Christian, and you believe I'm one, too. And I had to stop and say, now, what do I say? She put words in my mouth. If I didn't want to, if I said nothing, she would have that assurance that I carried her as a sister in faith.

She was not, clearly was not, living faith. And we had to sensitively love, speak that matter. One faith, one kingdom. And so this has been, I think, my concern. I've agreed with so many of the comments and the speeches.

want to freely forgive, but that we also remember the kingdom of God has borders. And how there are those phenomenon where there are those who want to believe differently but still being called a child of God or dwell among God's children and pray.

that we soberly and with love can speak to such ones that they wouldn't be, in some way, have this false assurance of childhood when clearly they don't have living faith and

As Ron was speaking, I had the same thoughts for mission work and even our preaching today. It feels like the gospel has been really spoken.

first time to service this, not seeing it before, not being invited to the life of the gospel to be freely preached. I haven't felt or seen personally that there has been a problem in our time, and I have to say thank you for that, that the gospel hasn't been preached as it should have been. We pray that that would continue.

But as we've mentioned in a couple of speeches this evening, the era of the 70s and 80s, we've also spoken of that in the course of meetings over recent months. And remember those times. The Minister's teleconference has had that as a topic the last couple of times in recent years. And we have

acknowledged that, in that time, after the leniency of the last heresy, the pendulum swung too far. It was a time of zealousness, tightness, spiritual warfare, and that was on that side. And those who were involved

We know that they have suffered. They've suffered as far as... And yet, I've also heard brothers who have been part of those discussions say how God's time and others, in the heat of those discussions, were able to take care of matters with each other.

and preach the gospel and in the end i i believe that all of those who are involved in this and those battles that have passed away and so my hope and prayer is that we can go forward we can't recreate those times sorry i'm sorry for the

Errors of the past, we can't recreate them and do no good. Those who have gone to rest can't take care of matters anymore. We pray that this life will end in matters that have been taken care of. And let us not dwell on those that we can't do anything about.

Yes, it's true we learn from the experiences, but I think today we live in a time of God's gift, a time of freedom, grace, God has been freely preached. The Holy Spirit will reveal that which is the correct kind of care and love.

when the situation arises. Is it discussion? Is it soul care? Is it church love, Christ? God can reveal through his Holy Spirit what the right love carries. His time. Let's put our trust in him. As to the minister's camp and comment that

Rick had made earlier in the beginning of our discussion, I say that I have been left with such wonderful warm feelings personally over the camp. To have, I think it was 88 of our speakers there for Friday afternoon, if you're doing it on Sunday,

to speak about portions of Scripture and these kinds of questions. It's been hours together. It's just an amazing time. We have really no presentations, but just discussions. And there are two discussions, three...

of the Holy Spirit. And my hope has been that you, brothers and sisters, would find joy and comfort to know that those servants that served during our congregations had this kind of a gathering and left with that kind of testimony. So, really, is it about what matters most?

I have to believe the Holy Spirit there, just as it works in the congregation and in the evenings this evening. And don't, that somehow there's some group that's influencing.

feeling our own wholeness and worthiness, but yet to be obedient and faithful. Finally, I just remember these words of our Lord Jesus Christ when he taught the world

And we say these words often when we pray. Every time we say the words of prayer. Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debts. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And after...

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. And so I thought of this comment, and we heard that somehow when we preach the gospel, it's not forgiving, but just a picture of Jesus' work. I've never heard that before.

It's not how I believe, but rather, as we pray here, the words of Jesus. For we use the power and the keys of faithfulness. Those sins are forgiven, not only here, between us as sinful people, but our Father.

that is that gospel is and how we want to treasure it not to use it as a cult or sin in any way misuse it we want to treasure it and use it as a power unto salvation and so

that gives opportunity for discussion as necessary. That if we've had doubts about our brothers and sisters, how they believe we would be able to speak to them and not think things which do not be true, which then would cause love.

Let us join our hearts in a closing prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, as we end this day, this evening together, we pray that you would carry us safely through the night and grant us new days of grace according to your will.

Let us.

brothers and sisters, dwell with them, those who have placed as husbands for us this birthday today. Let us preach your word and the gospel of forgiveness, the resurrection work, your son.

Let us be emboldened to speak these matters of living faith unto those from the outside of your kingdom so that none would be lost, so that no one would need to journey in distress over sin, but be in peace and joy of the conscience and hope of God to guide us

Protect us, dear Father, and give answers to our questions according to your will. The Lord bless us and keep us.