Southern Minnesota Boards’ and Speakers’ Meeting on Forgiveness, October 4, 2016

We'll start with song 335.

Thank you. Thank you.

I praise thee, Father, great in time and word, that I do make that peace with thee. I praise thee, Lord, in time and word, because thy mercy carries me.

For as thy riches will survive, through thee the stripes are loosing might. All evil praises can I offer, dear Jesus Christ.

The days of hell we did not come through And thus for love I still am true Thy resurrection freed my soul

O hear my praises, I beseech thee, the Holy Spirit, hear and find.

I do the faithful counsel, teach me to be sure in love of heart and mind. Whatever good in me may shine,

Why should I sigh in fear and sadness, when I must bring the cup of hope?

A word of grace is joy and gladness, and soon my tears will never fall. Where thousands, thousands praises ring, alleluia,

Why don't we open our evening with prayer and thanksgiving. Dear Heavenly Father, this evening as we have gathered as the Southern Minnesota boards and speakers, we ask that you would be here through your Holy Spirit and guide our evening.

Guide us that your word and power would be known. Guide us that we would be able to be of one mind and unity and understanding around these matters which are before us. And dear Father, we thank you that

You have preserved each and every one of us here as one of your dear children. And we ask that you would preserve each and every one of us. So when we lay down our travel staff one day, that we would be able to be there in the glory of heaven with you. And all of this we ask in the name of your dear Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen. So for a brief devotion or opening devotion, I thought I would take from the Epistle of James, the third chapter. I'll read the 13th through the

18th verses. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? Let him show out of good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envy and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated.

full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Amen. As I was...

Preparing or I should say thinking about this evening even and even the the topics that we have before us the and obviously with all the Discussion that has been going around lately or if you'd say the hot topic With this matter of forgiveness and

I couldn't find any other text, if you would say, other than this. And I even tried to find other texts, but as you brothers know, sometimes it just keeps coming back. And so I decided, well, we'll go with this.

But isn't it so here how even before we pause and listen to the presentation on forgiveness, but when we think of this matter that is before us, God's Word, James clearly writes here at the end of our text that he said that

He said the wisdom that is from above is first pure. We know that God's word is pure. And it's also then peaceable and gentle and easy. It's this that as believers, isn't it so that when we have the peace of God in our hearts, isn't it so that

It's this that we have peace. And it's easy for us when we have childlike faith even and our matters are correct to accept the will of the Heavenly Father. But it's simply this that maybe if we begin to...

become wise in ourselves, or we think contrary to what God's congregation has instructed, that, as James wrote here, that bitterness, or he said bitter envies and strife, is in the heart. Maybe we don't even recognize even... And I...

I think often with this matter of forgiveness, I think often of this, that first and foremost, myself as a brother who has been called to the office of speaking, but then more so just myself as a child of God, how are matters with me? How are my matters?

And isn't that where we even, dear brothers, that we need to start with that simple question, first and foremost, that how are my matters? Is it so that maybe if I disagree with someone, is it so that...

that you allow even this, if we would say, this strife to come between us. Apostle Paul, when he was writing to the Colossian believers, he said, let the peace of God, which passes all human understanding or something to that effect. But it's interesting that if we look even at that,

He says, let the peace of God. Or if we would say, allow the peace of God. Isn't that what we need to do first and foremost for each and every one of us in our own hearts? We need to allow that peace of God to enter into our hearts.

And until we do that, how can we be in the correct mind or in the correct spirit? We know that love is the first and foremost, the first fruit of the spirit. And I think that

Even in this, as we begin our discussion tonight, that we ask ourselves, has the peace of God, have we allowed the peace of God into our own hearts? And even this evening, as we start this discussion, each and every one of you can even

Lift up your hearts and put away doubts and even maybe the things that have come up in today's daily battle. Or even if there has been something that has been bothering you, you can allow that to be forgiven. You can lift up your heart and believe all your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood.

And when we then start our discussion that when we start with that, from that same, if we'd say that same level ground that we all can believe our own sins forgiven, that we can allow then the Holy Spirit, that peace, to work within us and within God's congregation. And even today,

Myself, coming before, even thinking of taking this turn to have this devotion, I've trembled. I've doubted. And I would ask even you, brothers, if you could preach that gospel to me. I want to believe together with you. In Jesus' name, amen.

Coming up, Tim? So I just want to start by welcoming everybody to our meeting. Thanks for coming and thanks for being here. If I'm looking back now, there are treats and coffee, so help yourself throughout the evening. I don't think we need to wait until the end. Pete was making plenty of coffee to make sure everyone was able to stay awake, so that's peace and welcome.

So first thing on our agenda is to review the agenda and approve the agenda. So I'll just do a quick walkthrough of the agenda. We'll start with going through the notes from our October 7th, 2014 meeting. And there was some copies of that on the back and there's a few more upstairs, but not a lot.

And then after that, we'll have a spiritual discussion, and as Todd introduced, we'll talk about the topic of forgiveness, which I think has been a conversation in all our congregations and probably a congregation meeting in all of them as well. And then a couple of reports, a report from the Midwest Facilities Committee by James Jurmu, an update from Elk River on their building project, and a building update from Monticello as well, so getting us some of those information.

updates that we all, I think, are wishing to hear. And then we'll follow that with looking at the LLC board terms and the Stony Lake Camp board terms. And then obviously we have an upcoming meeting of the southern area, midwestern area board meeting.

in Rockford on November 19th, and then we have to decide who is hosting the next meeting of the southern Minnesota boards. And then we'll adjourn. Is there any changes or additions anyone would like to make to the agenda? If not, I'll need a motion to approve it as is as well.

Gary makes motion to approve. Do we have a second? Thank you. So the next item on the agenda is review and approval of our 2014 meeting minutes. I've read through them. I don't know. I didn't have any changes, but I also don't believe I was at that meeting. So

Are there any changes or anything anybody would like to look at in that? I know the meeting was two years ago. Okay, if not, if nobody has anything, we can do an unneeded motion to approve as well on those.

Blake, do you have something to say or is that a motion to approve? Motion to approve. Do we have a second? Okay. Did you get that? Okay. It was Lauren Hilliker.

Okay, then with that, we can move to our discussion on forgiveness. Now, I did hear a couple of people saying that this could be a really long discussion, and then we do have the other updates. So I want to encourage everybody who has something to say that let's just jump right into the discussion and see if we can have a solid discussion by 8.30 or so and then move into the updates.

But with that, I'll just open the floor to anybody who wants to open it. We did not have any opening statements prepared. We had a discussion here in Minneapolis just a few weeks ago. I know there was discussions in other congregations. And I think that was where the topic came from. And the topic's obviously been bubbling up, but the topic for our conversation was with all the other conversations and meetings happening. So with that, I'll just open the floor.

Todd Anderson. So this topic of forgiveness, and I guess not so much forgiveness, but maybe we'd say the withholding.

I have a question to everyone here. Recently, I've been hearing a little bit more about the quote-unquote withholding doctrine. And it's been phrased like this, that the withholding doctrine is a new doctrine.

And those who are preaching the withholding doctrine need to repent of that. So I guess my question is, which I'm confused about myself, and I'm asking this, and I'm hoping we can, if there is someone who can shed a little light on this, but, you know,

And our discussions that I would say at minister's camp and what I've heard is this, that, and I believe myself, that we always want to preach the gospel. But the Holy Spirit, in some instances, has, I don't know if you want to say has closed our mouth or...

Sometimes when people have simply clarified that those who originally asked have rejected the gospel. But it's this that we always want to preach. So I guess I'm confused when I hear this, that they say that the withholding doctrine... And so anyway, I guess...

That's my question. Does anybody know? And I hope that if you, if, if there is this, if you want to coin it, that term withholding doctrine, if you have some insight as to why, why, I don't know. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Thanks, Todd. Sure, there's a lot of thoughts, so feel free.

Brian, Johnson? I personally have never heard this new term called withholding doctrine. I'll just, we just had, there was, Cato had their special fall services there, and I was there on Sunday with my mother, and Ray warned me, he was

gave a sermon, and there are brothers here, correct me if I want to just bring up a portion of that sermon, which I thought was, God had blessed the congregation and those there at the services. But in Ray's sermon, he spoke about life of the congregation, that sense of

duties and loosening and binding and whatnot. But he got towards the end of the sermon, and he talked about forgiveness. I was curious how he was going to approach that. And God gave him words. And basically what Todd said is that we always want to forgive. There's no doubt. This is a kingdom of forgiveness. So we always want to preach forgiveness, and we'll do that. We want to do that.

We are not the examiners or judges of people's heart, and we cannot be. None of us here, no organization, no community, no individual, we don't know the heart of man. God knows that. So we don't want to put our place to examine or judge someone's heart. But Ray went on to say that, as Todd already said,

We want to preach forgiveness, because we've had forgiveness. But there may come a point that the Holy Spirit may direct us not to preach the gospel. Maybe God, for some reason, through the Holy Spirit, directs us not to preach the gospel. That can happen. So it is.

And we don't need to get into all kinds of scenarios and what ifs and what not. That doesn't do us any good. In fact, if you get into the scenario stuff, it kind of leads into human reasoning. And then we get to all in the whirlwind when that happens. So I wanted to just edit that beautiful. And I agree. I agree.

that my spirit said amen to that sermon that was, and all the sermons that were given and the fall service at Cokato. But we want to preach readily, and we do. But there may be an instance that God may withhold. Thanks, Brian.

Losing my ability with names even though I most definitely should know all the names here. Thank you, Tommy. Just one thought. I was at services in Cokato, obviously. That's where I'm from. And God gave the right words for that topic. Certainly

We, just like Brian said, we cannot see in into a person's heart to see if they are sincere, if they are not, if they're penitent, if they're not. That's not for us to decide. I think there is a difference between God closing someone's mouth and not being able

physically not being able to speak those words and being hesitant to preach the forgiveness of sins to someone i think there are times when we might be hesitant to freely offer or to to preach the forgiveness of sins because we may feel that situation

in such a way that we wonder, are they, that if I was in their shoes, I certainly wouldn't do this or wouldn't do that or would have done it this way and so forth. And the teaching has been all the way from the speaker's meeting to always be ready and willing to forgive. And if we have any type of

reservations, whether we should or not, that's when we forgive again. Because we cannot, you know, God is the one that gives the growth. I know I didn't put all that in that

the type of way I was thinking, but those were my thoughts. Thanks, Tommy. Craig Kumpula. A lot of different thoughts on this topic, and for myself, I haven't

been in any of the congregation discussions other than the one presentation I think that Jim Frantti did at Mary's Day services in Rockford but nonetheless it's been a topic of discussion that I've been involved with at a personal level on the board levels and so on and I think it's safe to say

we look at scriptures that it's very very clear that we would forgive and it's not maybe always so clear with the examples in scriptures of cases where we wouldn't but that being said um one of the the feedbacks i heard from my daughter having been at one of the discussions she she said

the same thing in a little different way. But we're all saying the same thing. So it seems to me that it's pretty obvious that the enemy of souls is causing confusion and putting words in people's mouths and rumors about what somebody thinks or says, which may or may not be the case, and so on.

None of us can escape that reality because of our own corruption. The issue that I guess in my mind have struggled with on it is it seemed pretty clear to me when we left speaker's camp that one of the brothers

words there before we left, where if we're going to err on this matter, let's err on the side of forgiveness. And I agree with what my brother told me, that sometimes it's a hesitancy maybe that can come because of our own thoughts and misgivings or uncertainty about where the person is coming from. So for me, it kind of comes from this angle, that would it be wrong to forgive?

And that's the question that I struggle with. Would it ever be wrong to forgive in certain situations? And I don't think we need to get into hypotheticals on that either. I simply leave it at this, that scriptures instruct us to forgive. We want to forgive. We need to have a heart and mind to forgive. We can't gauge penitence.

in anyone's heart. It's not our doing. In fact, when Luther writes about penitence, he said it's impossible for any of us to be penitent enough for our own condition. We don't know how corrupt we are. So from that angle, I've struggled with that. Could it be wrong to forgive? And I don't even want to

go into scenarios where, well, it could be wrong in this case or that case. I simply want to trust that the Holy Spirit would reveal those instances when they happen and leave it at that. Thanks, Craig. Rick Nevala, I believe.

I've actually come to kind of a peace in my own mind over this topic. It doesn't scare me like it used to when I heard that the discussion was going to be this. And the reason why is because I can only trust in God's word. That's our final authority and that's where the answers will be found.

And that's where answers have been found. We are a forgiving congregation. But on the other hand, I would say it simply this way, the reason why there is even this kind of a topic is that the question was raised. At a meeting similar to this, is it possible? And there weren't any, at least in my mind, any relevant examples from our day that would show that this is even an issue. And I wonder...

where it's going to, where it has come from, what's really the problem. On the other hand, I also believe and would say that scriptures are very clear in places where there is not forgiveness. I'll mention two places, one in the Old Testament and one in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, if you recall about Joshua,

been following other gods and they very clearly told him that they that they wanted to follow his god too they didn't want to leave their own gods they wanted to follow his god too and the answer was really clear that god will not forgive and then in those kinds of terms is what what it says there also in the new testament it talks about care of of believers who

read about the church law of Christ, where it says that at some point, Jesus says to keep them as a heathen and a publican. In reality, that is not forgiveness any longer. The goal of the whole process was forgiveness, but it still is not forgiveness. They're very clear examples. Having said that, I don't know of any...

current examples in my time of work in God's kingdom that could mirror any of these. Nothing has been so clear. And I agree that if there is any gray area, it's unforgiving. I even use my own examples of that, my own wonderings. I remember a time sitting in the back of the ambulance as I was trying to help one child who was

injured very badly, and their father was a former believer. And in the middle of this work, they simply first asked who I was. Are you Rick Nevala? I said, yes, I am. He said, do you still belong to the same church? Yes, I do. Can I hear the gospel?

I preached the gospel. I did, however, ask his cousin to go visit with him to see how the way was going and found that he did not want to live a life of a believer. He just remembers what the gospel did in his former life that it comforted him when he was fearful or worried or doubt-filled. And he remembered that the gospel could do that, but he didn't want to live the life of a believer.

But we still preach the gospel in those times. And I don't think that's the case. The question I think is, as the enemy of Saul has placed it, he has placed it so finely. I was called once by a believer who, he quoted a,

an event from speaker's camp. He's not a speaker but he had heard of this event that was spoken of there and he said it was an example that Jim Frantti had given from his own life about meeting up with this person in heresy who was at the communion table at a nursing home and wanted to there hear the gospel and he apparently knew them and

and simply asked if they wanted to believe heresy forgiven. And they said no, that was not their intent. And so then I was bluntly asked myself, do you, Rick, would you forgive them? And I told this man that I don't know that person. If someone asks me forgiveness and I don't know the situation, I simply forgive them in Jesus' name and blood. It's that simple. We don't need to be judging anything.

It comes from the mouths. It comes from very clear examples, it seems to me. If it's not clear, you simply forgive, as we've heard tonight. But I will say that the enemy has been very cunning in trying to divide these matters so precisely. I just want to take this turn to speak to let you all know that in...

I have come aware from members of the congregation who have told me that there are groups of people who very openly critique sermons. In fact, they've told me, I've heard with my own ears from people who have said that there are those here in Minneapolis congregation who are preaching wrong and they're in Rockford, they're doing the same thing.

They said, I told them at our board meeting, for instance, that they said of one of our pastors that if you just listen to the sermon and just sit there and listen without wondering or worrying, it sounds just fine. But at face value, as soon as you listen a little bit intently, boy, they're very deceptive and that they're wrong.

at least in some groups. I don't know where to go with that, but it is a part of our time. How do we help each other to make it to heaven? I would hope that we'd all be our brother's keepers, so we all make it together to the end of the journey to the same destination,

Lars, did you have your hand up? No? Okay. Otherwise it was Todd. Rick, I just wanted to speak to that story of Jim Frontier. So if I remember right, I've heard the story a few times, but that lady was, she was in heresy, but when

She came to the communion altar, communion rail there. Jim said she had said something, and he didn't know exactly what she said. So he asked her, do you want your sins forgiven? And then she said no. So there wasn't, from what I understand, he didn't ask of heresy or anything like that, but simply asked her if she wanted her sins forgiven.

Mr. Anderson over here? Lars? Is it Lars? Good. This matter has certainly been a topic that has been discussed at length, and I myself have not been involved in first-hand discussions until just recently this last week.

I was approached by a brother who was concerned. And it was a man who isn't, I would say that he's not real, I wouldn't say he's real aware or doesn't seem that, it seems like he's just now starting to hear that there's some discussion going on.

And so I asked him, well, what have you heard? And he says, well, I've heard that there's ministers who are preaching that we should judge people before we forgive them. And I was quite shocked. I said, I've never heard that. Never in our discussions on the Rockford board and our board meetings or even in personal discussions, never have I heard that, that we are judging.

And this man went on to say that a close person to him has had personal discussions with speaker brothers, and that has been the case. And so he says, well, is that what's being preached? Is there a division of speakers and board?

And I told him, I said, no, we have been of one mind with this matter. And we've had many hours of discussion. So there's definitely, there's still that work of the enemy that's out there trying to divide, trying to divide the congregation and trying to,

sow those seeds and where are they? They've gotten to the point where he cited examples where supposedly there was a discussion that one of the minister's

was very openly judging somebody's repentance. And he didn't say who the minister was, but I said, you know, if you've heard that, maybe you need to visit with that person, because I have never heard that. I've never heard in any of our discussions that there's been any judgment, that we've always preached forgiveness, it's unconditional, and that we're not to judge.

And so I just wanted to bring it here tonight that there's still these discussions going on, and they've even evolved to the point where there's people saying that there's divisions now. And I don't know where those are coming from or where to go with them, but that was quite disturbing to me to hear that.

Gary? Yeah, first off, greetings from George. Our dear brother George is sick this evening and couldn't make it. He asked that his greetings be brought here. As was mentioned by Brian, we did have our special fall services this past weekend.

and it was special. God definitely served us in Cokato this past weekend, as he always does, but it just felt so good to be there. And, you know, we've also had a, I did miss the discussion evening in Cokato on forgiveness. We talked about it at our board level, and

it felt very much so that we were all of one mind. And even in our feedback from our discussion, that everyone was of one mind in our congregation, at least at the discussion. And when I think about this issue, to me, it certainly is the work of Satan

he is always trying to create that division and bring up these types of questions. Maybe I'm too simple, but I look at, I mean, there's several places in the Bible where it tells us that if we don't forgive, we will not be forgiven. And it seems so clear to me in those portions. Even that one in, I'll just,

Don't want to misspeak, but in Luke chapter six, verse 37, it says, judge not and ye shall not be judged. Condemned not and ye shall not be condemned. Forgiven ye shall be forgiven. There's other portions similar to that. As with anything, and you know, it just reminded me at the, I was too young.

at the time of the last heresy to even remember the stuff that happened after the heresy. And we've often, I've often said in our board meetings that we, you know, it's nice to have some of those older board members in Cokato that remember those times and can remind us of what happened. But George relayed a story that during that time,

you know, he had went to visit an elder to ask what is going on when there was this dryness spirit. I don't recall that, but it did come through there. I'm sure as many other places. And George was reminded by that elder that, you know, if it's not of God, it will pass. And I, I think that helps me even, or, you know, it's reminder for us, even in this, that if this is not of God, it will pass. And we need to pray.

And lovingly carry those that are having this struggle. Because I'm sure it is a mighty struggle even for them. But we need to remember them. And pray that God will help them see. How simple this matter of forgiveness is. Randy. And then after Randy it would be Ron. Randy.

Maybe I'm a simple individual, but

and think about things very simply, but it is God that has created us. It is God that has gifted us with his spirit. It is God's forgiveness. I was thinking about that, that portion of God's word

In John chapter 20. And it says. Speaking of Jesus here. And when he had said this. He breathed on them. And said unto them. He breathed on them. And said unto them. Receive ye the Holy Ghost. And then he continued. Whosoever sins ye remit. They are remitted unto them. And whosoever sins ye retain. They are retained.

I think, dear brothers and sister, we need to keep this in remembrance that it is God that works in us. It isn't our forgiveness. It is God's forgiveness. It is God that gives us the power to speak. It is God that gives us the power to close our mouths.

Let's keep it simple. God is almighty. God is all powerful. Of course we want to forgive. But God is all powerful and God knows. We don't know, but God knows. And it is God's forgiveness.

So if there comes a time where the gospel isn't preached, wouldn't it be the power of God? I was speaking with a dear brother in Cokato, and in my simple mind, I told him, I said, if God can make a donkey speak, surely he can close our mouths, dear brothers.

Of course, though, we want to forgive. That's our intention. But it isn't our forgiveness. It is God's forgiveness. And I need to hear that gospel. Can I have my sins and guilt forgiven?

This is the first time that I've heard this name, withholding doctrine. And I guess I would like to hear somebody define what that withholding doctrine is. And also, I would like them to define who those brothers are who

they think are withholding. The other thing, if there is a group of people who are looking at sermons with critical eyes, what are they looking for? Because it has been so that

When we go to the pulpit to preach, our prayer is that the Heavenly Father will give words and that if we do not speak according to God's word, that we will be taken care of, that we will be corrected.

But until we understand what this withholding doctrine is, and who is practicing this withholding doctrine, and who is doing that examination, it doesn't seem like we're going to get anywhere. .

I know each one of you brothers and sisters that are here that we know that we are sinners. And the enemy often puts in front of us those things that we have done. And yet in God's congregation there's been for me and I know for you that there's been nothing but forgiveness. I know

And I've heard and I experienced in the time after the last heresy where some were teaching in a demanding way and so on. And I suppose those things have affected some more than they have affected me. And yet I haven't experienced that at all in the days of my adult life.

It has been such a place where I've been able to hear again and again that all of my sins are forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. And God's word, as has been read here, says that if we do not forgive, neither will the Heavenly Father forgive us. And yet I also know with my own power and strength, I'm unable to forgive.

but it's through the power of the Holy Spirit that I'm able also to forgive and to forget those wrongs that have been done to me. And when we preach the gospel to others, it's not through our own strength. So when we've had these discussions about forgiveness, when we've had some smaller discussions or individual discussions,

What's remained in me and what I've been troubled by is what is the reason that there are some, and I don't know who they are, that are not content with the teaching that's been in the congregation in some way seem to be battling. For example, there are people who are hearing things

that alarms them, and yet they have not experienced those things firsthand, but they've only heard tales. I've wondered who would tell them tales to trouble the childlike believer. I hope and pray that I'm not one who would speak tales in a way that would trouble a childlike believer.

So I think these are the matters also that we would want to discuss, that if we're not content or if some matter continues to trouble us about the teaching in God's congregation, that we would visit about that also. I haven't heard about a withholding doctrine. I have, though, in a couple of visits with individuals heard

very strong accusations that there are those that would withhold the gospel. And I have not been in those discussions where there's been an examination or even a desire to know what's in the heart. But gospel has always been preached in the discussions that I've been in and when I've worked on the board and so on. And then it also is a matter when we hear that there are those who are examining

I think it's good to hear sermons, and if we have some matter that catches our ears, that we would ask about those matters. But when we begin to examine with a critical mind the sermons that are given in God's congregation through the power of the Holy Spirit, but by sinful men,

think that we're in a place where childlike faith has become dim but i also know that i often doubt and the doubts become heavy and i fear and i also want to hear that can i even believe

This is the way it's been for me in God's congregation, and recently it seems like it's been more difficult to just simply believe. And that question about what's changed, and we had the congregation meeting here. Somebody was talking, and again, not exactly which sermon, but they said they heard in sermons a different message and what's changed.

you know, this message of not preaching or whatever. And I was standing up front, and there was one spot I couldn't stop myself, and I said, it hasn't changed. But when I said it, I saw that most of the congregation said the same thing. And our discussion here that we had here in Minneapolis echoed the same thoughts that were here. But the one brother did say, what's different? And I say, most of the congregation responded with, nothing's different, that the gospel is freely preached.

I think I had heard a sermon from Summer Services in Finland on Acts chapter 4. It brought to mind where Peter and John were speaking to the people. And I'll just read it a few verses. And they spake unto the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees,

And I'll skip to verse 13.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled, and they took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But when they had commanded them to go outside of the council, they conferred among themselves, saying, What shall we do to these men

For that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. But that it spread no further among the people, let us straightly threaten them that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. And they called them and commanded them not to speak at all, nor teach in the name of Jesus.

But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than God, judge ye. For we cannot speak the things which we have seen and heard. So I think we want to have the mind of Peter and John, as it's been said. We want to freely forgive, freely preach the message of the good tidings of Jesus. Jesus died for our sins.

rose again from the dead. And that's the message you want to share with all those around us in this world. And we go back to verse 4, which it says, How many of them which heard the word believed? And the number of them was about 5,000. So there again is a picture of the gospel is freely spread to all, even in the Acts chapter.

we see how many were converted. Tim, Castie.

Thinking of as a child coming home from school, in grade school, I know that comfort of coming home to see my mother there. It was a warm feeling. It was something that you never forget. And as you grow a little bit older through the middle school, you still have those memories of coming home and that desire to be home and with your believing brothers and sisters and just enjoying that.

Where I'm going with this is that I personally want to have that same feeling when I come to church. I want to come to church and not have any cares. I want to be held in the comfort of the other believers. I don't want to have the devil putting any sort of thought saying, I wonder what those people are talking about over there. That's the devil doing his work. I don't want to have any of that. I want to be a child, childlike believer. I want to come to church

be refreshed in the comfort of all the other believers. God doesn't want to trick us. He doesn't want to put snares out to make us stumble and say, okay, there's semantics here. He's not going to trick us at all. The devil is the one that tricks. He's the one that wants to draw us away. He's the one that wants to create murmurings. He's the one that wants to

And I pray that if I am ever in that situation where I'm the one that is of a bitter heart or a bitter mind, that I would be guided and drawn back into the love of the congregation. It seems like it's so simple to believe that the devil is actually the one that's trying to make it hard for us. It seems so simple in my mind as you just, you believe.

You forgive, but understand that if you want to open your mouth and preach to someone and nothing comes out, that's not my doing, it's God's doing. The words that come out in forgiveness are the words that are not, no sound comes out. I can't control that. I trust that God will guide. And I was once threatened about a youth camp.

presentation and I was talking to a brother and he was saying, you know, Tim, you can't have such a perfect lesson that you don't allow room for God in that lesson. God will give the difference. Just do the best you can. God will give the difference. And I pray that. And I trust that God will

Actually, I know that God will always give the difference in any situation. You know, we've got to trust in the Lord and be content, and it's really that simple in my mind. For me, in some of these discussions, I personally have never been in a situation where I was troubled in regards to this withholding and forgiveness. But one thing it does do is it makes the guy want to read the Bible more. And I haven't been good at that. You know, you do the Bible class lessons, you do your Sunday school,

In times of tribulation of this nature, one needs to turn towards the Bible and ask yourself, how do I believe? And I was thinking about that part in Romans 5. It talks about, not only so, but we glory in tribulation, also knowing that tribulation worketh patience, and patience experience and experience hope. And hope maketh not ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, which is given unto us.

I take comfort, and I think of this portion amongst others, but this one a lot. I think about it, knowing that in these times of tribulations, we need to be patient. We need to visit about others' experiences, and I echo those other thoughts that I had come across with those dear brothers that attend our board meetings, who one may think temporarily, say, you know, you can...

I'm so happy that they're there when they can share their experiences of things of the past, that I can grow, not by stumbling, but I can grow through those experiences that they had experienced. To me, that's what helps me. I know it allows me, with, of course, the gospel, get to heaven. I, too, need to hear that gospel as well. Can I have my censor? I'll censor you and say his name, precious. Steve, call on him.

God is not an author of confusion, but rather a God of peace, a God of forgiveness. We, in God's kingdom, I think would say that the gospel is preached to the penitent and to the remorseful. And in our time,

It has seemed that the gospel has been preached so freely. We think of faith as the simplicity of faith, that even the little child that Jesus held in his arms as a little infant is a child of God. How can our mind comprehend that child didn't need to understand anything?

But as a child, regardless of our age, and we understand in this simplicity of faith that he is my creator, he has given to us so much that if we think today these questions that have risen, I go back to the text that was used in the opening for this evening, a couple of verses there that say,

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion in every evil work. What is driving the questions that are coming

driving some who are trying to analyze with their own mind the sermons of forgiveness, the sermons of faith, the sermons that are God's word for the salvation of the undying soul of man. So where have some of these questions that have led us to this day started from? Where is that root of bitterness?

a root of evilness, where has it come from? Is there some who have not felt that they have been forgiven and they have been able to turn it around and try to put the blame on others? It just makes me wonder because it seems that it has felt that the gospel is preached so freely. And of course we could reference a few areas in the Bible that speak about times when

the gospel was not preached. Such as Esau, who was not granted that blessing of the firstborn because of the condition of his own heart. But yet we think of God's kingdom. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Grace and forgiveness. The blessing through the redeeming blood of Christ. And yes, we also must face

The truth of God's word that sometimes strikes into a heart where bitterness is and it's not received so well. Which one of us could say sometimes when we have been approached by someone else to wonder how our matters, especially if there are particular matters of the heart, what does the flesh do?

does it begin to rebel or defend itself? So this text that was used, I think, in the beginning this evening even just seemed so appropriate and gave me that thought that where has this come from that has begun to seem to grow and build power and strength as that strife

and evil working, as that text even would touch on. This is a kingdom of truth, a kingdom of grace, a kingdom of children. But if we begin to grow in oneself, it's that of God. We live today in such a time. We see the evilness of this world

beginning to be ever more wicked and openness of sin. And here, within the kingdom of God, the trials and battles within. What would each one of us think if we would know that tonight was the last day and evening of this world? Is our heart founded

upon the grace and love and truth of God's word? Or has it begin to grow with man's own mind, with man's own thinking, with man desiring to gain a little bit before God, anything we have done is done. God has given the perfect gift

He has given that treasure of life through his son when we can believe sins forgiven. This gospel has been preached so freely with power from God. How beautiful it has been to hear time and again this gospel that has not been

held back when a penitent heart cries wonders. Does faith any longer dwell in my heart? And yet the gospel is preached to give that power and strength to battle onward for another day. Dear brothers, it is good to be here to listen to this open discussion. May it be God's word. May it be his help even this evening.

in his kingdom, that not one would be lost to the wayside. And I would ask if you can also forgive me for my many doubts and my sins. I've enjoyed this evening as well.

to collect a few thoughts here it feels to me that this matter of forgiveness isn't really the issue it seems like there's much it's something else you know this discussion has been kept in congregations the answer has been given i think very clearly given scriptures teach and and i agree that this forgiveness of sins is a treasure it's a treasure of god's kingdom

There's no greater joy than to be able to preach the gospel to somebody. That's the essence of God's kingdom. It's just what it is. The forgiveness of sins falls into the office of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to forgive. And there may be those times where the Holy Spirit doesn't. I hesitate to even share this example, but I will.

It's not a hypothetical. It's what happened. My father-in-law, his dad, so it would be my, you know, my father-in-law's dad was in heresy. And he had this kind of personality and so on that he would jest and joke and kind of lighthearted guy at times, very friendly, much like my father-in-law. And there would be times that

when they were visiting over those years after he had gone into heresy, that he would turn to my father-in-law and he would just tell him, hey, [my father-in-law], tell me those words. And [my father-in-law] knew, of course, what he wanted. He was once a believer. But [my father-in-law] said that he couldn't preach the gospel to him. It bothered him for many years why he couldn't preach the gospel. It didn't happen just once. It happened a number of times. But he said that it felt like

in some ways made of this. So anyway, the gospel wasn't preached there. And it was just a few weeks before he died that [his father] had a dream. And he sent word through the nurse that [my father-in-law] would go to the nursing home that morning. And so my father-in-law did. He went down to the nursing home and [his father] asked [my father-in-law] that you're still alive.

[my father-in-law] says, yeah, I'm standing here. And [his father] said, I had a dream that you died. And my last connection to God's kingdom was severed. And there, at those services, [his father] was granted grace to believe. He became a grace beggar, and he wanted his sins forgiven. And the gospel was very freely preached there.

[my father-in-law], he called me. I was at work that morning, and he called me. He said, Eric, he explained what happened. And he said, you've got to go down to the nursing home after work. He says, I preach the gospel, but you know how my gospel is. I thought, well, your gospel's as effectual as any believer's, and of course, better than mine. But I said, I would go. So I went down to the nursing home, and I visited with him there.

And that's what I also found was this grace beggar. It didn't matter anymore to [his father] what things were, but he wanted to hear the gospel. And he lived by that gospel for those remaining days of his life. And he was left with this kind of testimony. So that, I think, answers to my spirit as to what happened. [my father-in-law] still to this day has those questions why it happened, but it did. And so I just see

that God opens, God closes, it's his work, and we are simply little boys, little girls in the work. And we can trust. Can we trust in the power of the Holy Spirit? After all, it is God that dwells in the hearts of his children, cares for the matters of his congregation. So it feels to me that this isn't the question.

But now when we've heard these more recent reports of those who have been very carefully examining sermons that have been preached in prior years and now examining and comparing them to what they were and what they are now, it's troubling. It feels to me that there are those who, for some reason, are not satisfied with the teaching and the simplicity of childlike faith, the teaching of God's kingdom.

and are searching for some other way or some other answers. So that's worrisome to me. But it's been my experience that God's kingdom has been a kingdom of forgiveness. I've never been rejected. I've never been denied when I've asked for forgiveness. I've needed it. Oh, I've needed the forgiveness of sins.

I can resonate very well with what the apostle says. He felt himself to be the weakest. So that's the kingdom I know. It's the kingdom I grew up in. It's the kingdom that I've served in. It's a battling kingdom, battling against sin, battling against wrong understanding, wrong doctrine, caring for its children.

And that's how I believe it is today. So may it be that God would give us this kind of heart of forgiveness, of patience, speak freely of matters, visit openly with our children and our congregation members, our brothers and sisters in faith. And let's speak about what God's kingdom is, kingdom of forgiveness and kingdom of grace and how that has resonated through these years and how God has carried us and kept us

till this day. But I know it's troubling. It's troubling to me. And I also, as some have mentioned, I was so refreshed by being in Cokato over the weekend for services. God, through the brothers and the fellowship of the believers there, it felt so sweet and comforting to be there. Simple, childlike faith was refreshed. So, may God help us.

And may God give us wisdom to work and serve in these times and that we would always be able to speak well and good of God's kingdom, this kingdom of grace and forgiveness. And also help our brothers, our speaker brothers that are serving and remember them in prayer that God would also give them a strength to serve and to speak and to preach clearly that which is according to the Spirit.

But doubting I am and fearful and feeling my own sinfulness, can I also hear the gospel? I'll censor you into his name, precious blood. Adrian? Yeah, I guess I've pondered or wondered the same thing what Eric just spoke to, that

We have those discussions where God's spirit leads and guides. But yet, love, unity, and peace doesn't return. I'm only left with that thought that that's not the question. There's something else. God isn't the author of confusion. But he's

promised he'll carry those who want to believe to heaven's home. I've also thought a little bit about this whole topic of questioning how

We can freely ask questions in God's kingdom, but what is the heart behind the questions? Are we asking from this perspective that how are matters understood in God's kingdom? Or is the question coming from a heart that doesn't agree as

for a different position. Finding myself weak and poor and tempted, I need to hear the gospel. Kurt Simonson.

The last two comments I've, I've also traveled down that road and I've wondered, and to me, it also seemed like there's something else at the speaker's camp. Um, we heard about this topic and I had never so much considered, you know, that there might be times when.

I wouldn't be able to forgive, but through the discussion there, it felt, it just seemed to be God's spirit there that spoke to us. And I felt so secure with what I heard.

And then after the speaker's camp, I heard bits and pieces and I visited with so and so forth. And I began to really get, seemed like my mind, my understanding was getting so confused. And I started to reason some of these things out. And I just, you know, I didn't really even know where I was, if I was coming or going after a while. And then I

I was at confirmation for two weeks. And it was so nice to be there where the matters of faith were so clear and so simple. There was no intellectual thought into these things. It was just simple. And to visit with the other teachers there and the other director and

free discussions of faith and it was just so freeing. There was like, there was, there wasn't no challenge. There was just, it was just like freedom. And there happened to be on the table in the room, the office there, there was just a copy of a voice design article from, I don't even know what the year was, probably 25 years ago. I don't, maybe Sam knows because he was there too and we shared that article because

I read it, I think Kathy might have found it there on the table, and so she showed it to me, and I read it, and I was just like, it was about the heresy of Korah. And I wonder, what was the topic then? You know, there was just this envying on Korah's part. And it became a big issue.

came against Moses and the leadership that God had placed in his kingdom. And, you know, he says, you're not the only one that's holy. The whole congregation is holy. And we understand that, and we believe that. At least that's what I believe. But I also believe that God, through his wisdom, has also placed in his kingdom those that have greater responsibilities.

I think, you know, as believers, we need to be conscious of that, that this is God's kingdom. Those brothers that serve, we need to pray for them. And who does God have to do this work here? He only has sinners. That's all we are. And so we need to help each other with our sin, and we forgive each other.

But we also have to understand that this is God's kingdom, and God can see every man's heart. And I agree with those instances that the brothers have spoken about where they weren't able to forgive. I hadn't ever considered it before, but my spirit says, amen. How difficult that would be. Who wouldn't want to forgive somebody so close as their father? But we can. It's God's spirit. He's the owner of that spirit to me.

He controls that spirit, and he's given it to us as a gift so that we can get to heaven. But I've wondered, and I don't need to wonder because God already knows what the real issues are. But what's most important for us as individuals is that if we've harbored those feelings or we've had those thoughts and we've caused unrest in God's kingdom, that we would find him.

place of forgiveness. That we could just put those matters away and God's kingdom wants to forgive us. God wants us to live in peace and unity and love and joy here. And I want to hear from my own blackies and wrong understandings or whatever they may be. I just want to be a believer and I want my sins forgiven. Can I believe?

Sam? Sam Reiko Peet. I've also wondered, it seems like this matter of forgiveness hasn't

been an issue in my years as far as I can remember and then became an issue and as Keith, our brother Keith here in Minneapolis at the close of the meeting pointed out and we've heard in comments already tonight that there is something else. And heard from our brother Kurt about the rebellion of Korah and had articles from 1991 how

they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron and said that you take too much upon you seeing all the congregation are holy and it seemed like the minister's camp was when we left there we left with such joy and unity of spirit and oneness to go forward in this work and

then there were voices that were wanting to destroy that and tear that down. One brother there in Elk River showed me a text he had received from another brother who had said that he didn't buy it, that the ministers were united when he hadn't been there. And this kind of...

I guess, mind or this kind of attack against servants of the word, whether it's analyzing sermons or accusing them, nitpicking their sermons and saying that they've lied to the congregation or whatever the case may be is...

is concerning and troubling. When we've spoken of this matter of forgiveness and we have understood that we are not the judges of the hearts and even the prophet Samuel had to learn that lesson how God sees into the hearts.

And that is true, and we want to forgive. But also then, Jesus also says that by their fruits he shall know them. That men don't gather grapes of thorns or figs from thistles. And

There's even examples from the scriptures where, for example, Simon the Sorcerer in Acts chapter 8 saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands a Holy Ghost was given and he wanted to give them money. And that kind of envy was in his heart and Peter said unto him that your money perish with you. And he says, I perceive that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.

God has given all of his gifts and wisdom and understanding into the kingdom and has called through the congregation those to serve, as Jesus called Peter, to feed and guide my sheep.

And attacks against those whom the congregation has called to serve are attacks against the kingdom of God. And in this same, one of the other items that has been brought out was spiritual fornication, spiritual adultery, and how

It has always been preached and understood that we don't greet with the greeting of God's peace those who have gone into heresy or who are no longer believing as God's children. Are we then judging them? Are we then condemning them? That's

That's, I think, of course not the case, but rather we, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, that such a one who has done such kinds of evil things, he says that we...

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. He told him that I verily as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already concerning the one that would have taken his father's wife and lain with her.

that that's not that kind of a judgment of condemnation, but that kind of a, as the key of binding is, when, and in the church law of Christ, when someone would be considered a heathen man, a publican, that it's a law of love that such a one would awaken and realize what their condition is, that they are outside of the love of the children of God.

And that if we would continue to greet them with the greeting of God's peace, consider them a brother or a sister in faith and treat them that way, that then we are, as we heard from that one other portion, we are, how Joshua said, they have not forsaken their old gods. They wanted to mix the two.

and then we become partakers of that. And so in that sense, it is important that the boundaries of God's kingdom are clear. But that our goal and our desire

And our heart's fervent wish is that we could preach the gospel. But as the confirmation exercise exam question is, to whom is the gospel preached? It's preached the answers to the penitent and the remorseful. And when one could find a place of a sinner and humble themselves to repentance, then we freely and willingly preach the gospel.

But we are not as if judging their level of penitence or condemning them, but that we there, as the mouthpiece of God, the mouthpiece of the Holy Spirit, are preaching God's Word, the Gospel, full of grace and truth. If there is no condemnation of sin,

as we hear so often in the world, then everything is nothing but love and grace and happiness, and there is nothing that is ever wrong. But we preach sin as sin, and we preach grace as grace and forgiveness. And that has been our source of strength to this day, and that has been the same gospel that has been preached

that will be preached until Jesus comes to take his own home to heaven. And so it's certainly concerning when the enemy is able to lead his children astray and it is good that we can stop and visit and that we travel at the speed of the

Nobody would be left. But I know my words are weak, and my thoughts don't always come out clearly, and I need to hear the gospel as well, can I believe?

Dear board members and speakers, it's good that we can come together to visit. I thought that in this way, we've been called to our places of duty and watching in God's kingdom as

board members and servants of the word and each of us of course has our first place of watching in our own personal endeavor of faith and our how as we heard earlier how are my matters in the opening devotion and certainly it's

always one where I feel my own faults and sinfulness. Can I bleed my sins for you? I want to believe with you. And I think that we have that kind of responsibility also, even as we discuss these matters, that

I think we've heard many speeches this evening that are the same voice and one that I can say that my heart answers amen to. And so I just wonder that are any of us otherwise minded and are any of us feeling a difference?

I think it's important that we would feel that freedom. We can't discuss and we can't face these issues if we don't hear what's on all of our hearts. And I think we have such a kingdom and I've had this feeling

during these times of discussion that I feel since those times of difficulty and dryness that we've had such a time of peace and freedom in God's kingdom that it hasn't felt like there hasn't been freedom even to disagree and to speak our hearts and

freely in congregation meetings, or annual meetings and so on. And, you know, we haven't been pounced on if maybe our thought has been different than what the majority has been thinking and so on. But to me, I felt that we've enjoyed this kind of freedom. So we can have that freedom even over these matters.

these issues the enemy certainly is cunning and I've thought in this question of forgiveness also that he's able to even cause confusion and differences where as was mentioned earlier it seems like was it Craig's daughter who had observed that it seems like

felt that too sometimes and so then I've thought that when there is that feeling that there's a difference I truly would like to know that what are the examples or the fruits that someone might be seeing that shows this difference and I've also wondered that

question I know in the Minneapolis meeting there were a couple thoughts that I thought it would be good that it wasn't time in that meeting of course to follow up on all those but there was that thought expressed that comparing a sermon spoke at some time in Rockford to what's being heard now that there's a difference so I assume that the feeling was that there must be

some sermons that feels that um there's this tightness or or what but i don't know and then also that thought that um you know the brothers from the 80s that was also brought out at that minneapolis meeting that um that they took care of their matters but were some of the students and mentors of the

have they got stuck in that or i can't remember exactly the words but are they kind of continuing in that spirit or dryness and so um that too you know it would be good to know that what

speaker at that time beginning speaking in 84 and so as I mentioned to Rick on the way is that you know when I think of those those brothers that had their battles and struggles they went through the time of warfare of spiritual warfare of the heresy and

and then experience the battles to the other side, perhaps in the dryness. But it seemed in my mind that they were able to all take care of their matters and that they were in the love of Christ one to another. I don't think that they were...

struggling with those things. And so I think those of us who experienced those times, we just felt happy and joyful that they were in the past and forgiven and say that what the brothers have forgiven here or there, I want to forgive also and look forward and not behind.

And it's not to say that someone may have had bad experiences that they haven't been able to forget. But there, too, I think one can find the place of forgiveness and to, you know, if they can speak openly of those difficulties and be able to even put them behind and be able to forgive and move forward.

and trusting. So I would encourage even this evening if there's some, even under this discussion, are feeling in themselves that, well, I don't really agree with what's being said here. It's so important that we be free and open to speak what's on our minds and hearts and trust and allow the Spirit to teach all of us and help all of us to that.

common understanding and unity. Todd Anderson, Pete. We've got somebody else there, okay. I just had another thought, and maybe most people are familiar with the bylaws of their churches in regard to board members. I just wanted to read a couple things out of what's in our bylaws. I'm sure everyone's similar, but

The board of trustees shall study and direct all spiritual matters in said church in the light of the word of God and in accordance with the Constitution. And then, of course, in the Constitution we could read the whole thing, but I'll just read one sentence. Said church holds that the holy word of God is the highest authority and only measure according to which all doctrines and teachings

and said church are to be examined and judged. So I think I just wanted to highlight that because these examples are helpful when we talk about doctrine in the church, helpful for everyday examples, but we can't build our faith upon examples, and we really need to turn back to the scriptures when we're talking about matters of doctrine. And I think that our forefathers that wrote these bylaws

put that in there for a reason and i think we just need to keep that in mind that the bible is the highest authority thank you yeah i agree with ray that um you know it's it would be good if there are

some other thoughts that, and that's even what I guess my question in the beginning is, if there's some other thoughts that it'd be good if they could be brought out, because what other, seems like there wouldn't be a better place than an evening like tonight where we could discuss that. But in regards to this question of

is the question of forgiveness or something else. Even in this text, I guess, that I started with in the 13th verse, James was writing, he says, Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? Let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. I take that as, well, I guess I've marveled

when other brothers have been given the wisdom and understanding on different matters that I haven't understood, but they've been able to open them through God's Word, and it's been opened through them. But it's this that, and I feel that even evenings like this are so crucial that

And then also our individual conversations where we do know each other from the heart. Because it's this that, you know, different brothers are given different understanding. And certainly all of us, or I would say it seems like I'm one of the last ones to understand. But I would say this, that

those that are given that understanding, as this text says, that they're, it says meekness of wisdom, that they're fruits. We know that a tree is known by its fruit, as someone has, as Jesus has said, but someone has mentioned here, and that these brothers that are given understanding, when they continue to be a humble servant and

continue to be a grace beggar that it's this that they are just like the rest of us and and i think um it seems that the enemy of soul sometimes wants to if you say put that criticism out there that oh look oh they look at this is what they're saying they're placing themselves above the congregation or or um

that effect and but it's this that if you if you are in conversations with those that when you do know these brothers from the heart that you can correct them and say you know that's i don't understand what you're saying because i know this particular brother and he is of um

humbleness of mind and so on and so forth. But I just, I guess I wanted to say that it is good that we have these evenings and also to echo Ray's thoughts that if there is other questions or so forth that they could be even discussed in an evening like tonight. So next would be Markus Lohi and then Joe Lehtola.

I was also going to state it's almost 9 o'clock. We do have several more things on the agenda, but I also don't want to cut this conversation short. It's really nice to be here and listen to the discussion. Sam mentioned some of the Bible texts that really have helped me with settling my thoughts on this. Very true what Ken said.

for us and when the scripture aligns with maybe the recent history of living Christianity I guess that's all the more of all the more of a comfort for us that we had continued to be the battling kingdom of God individuals yes we all fall

It's a great thing that there is forgiveness. It's a great power. I think Randy mentioned when Jesus came behind the locked doors and blew on them and told them and gave them that power.

Also Matthew records in couple other instances where he also speaks about that power to whatsoever you bind or lose. It's a great power, forgiveness of sins. Jesus is telling us if people don't hear forgiveness of sins from the kingdom of God, they are not forgiven in heaven.

There comes then the question in the end, and I think Greg asked that question that, well, when wouldn't I forgive? Bible seems to show that some examples may be certainly examples where people were not able to receive repentant heart, but also seems like some examples of where

to the mockery or for whatever reason, they were not forgiven. Those were the examples of the Bible. The teaching of the Bible, if we take a look at the teaching of Jesus with regard to forgiveness. The servant who did not want to forgive, how many times should I forgive my brother?

And so on. The teaching is very much the teaching of what we have been teaching ourselves, what we have heard. Forgive. And I don't know that we can really say it any better than what was the conclusion of the minister's camp that we err. Let's err on the side of forgiveness.

For any individual wondering, well, should I forgive or should I not forgive, I cannot imagine a situation in my personal life that it would happen that somehow I would not forgive. But who am I to say? I am to say, how might the Spirit of God affect in me? I sure hope I never need to be in a situation where I deny someone, but

I guess God is a hidden God who reveals Himself, and we don't understand the depths of Him and how His Holy Spirit works. For us simple servants in the congregation, let's just remember what Jesus told Peter, that not only seven by seven, but seventy times seven.

And that if you don't from your heart, if we keep something in our heart, personal level, that I don't want to forgive that person because they did that to me. Well, it is true what Jesus said. Unless you forgive, your father will not forgive you. But that does not mean, again, the teaching is very clear.

the examples of the Bible seem to show, and even some recent history of living Christianity, that there maybe were times where they, individuals, were bound not to forgive. And nevertheless, forgiveness of God could take still place in His time.

I guess the conclusion of all of this, if we err, it sounds pretty familiar. We've heard that many times before. Let's err on the side of forgiving. And let me forgive all my sins.

So I guess from my standpoint the you know the topic of forgiveness and when we should forgive and so on hasn't necessarily been problematic for me because

i wouldn't forgive as we said as we've heard the holy spirit would enlighten us if if there was indeed a time that we shouldn't forgive so i haven't i haven't been kind of hung up on that topic of you know when we shouldn't or shouldn't forgive but it seems to me that that according to the bible over and over again it it uh

we should go forth and preach the gospel again and again so that's the emphasis of the Bible but there was a couple of comments here that I guess triggered some thoughts and I think with respect to this topic of forgiveness for me it's generated just a lot of questions and I'll just keep asking them as I think about them so

the couple of comments that triggered a question in my mind is first of all when Ken expressed the duty of a board and how everything needs to be examined according to the Bible the teachings of the Bible Old Testament, New Testament Apostles, Prophets and so on and that is the highest authority and so since I'm

speakers i haven't been as diligent diligent as i should have been studying the bible um my knowledge of the bible is is not as good as it should be let's just put it that way and so then sam made the comment um

the bible is not as good as it should be and all things should be based on the bible examined according to the bible then how do i know when the or what defines the borders of the kingdom of god you know since according i only know little bits and pieces of the bible and uh

One that keeps coming to my mind lately is the parable of the last judgment, where all of us will, every person on this earth, according to the Bible, will stand before the judge when Jesus comes again, and he will judge. So, in my mind, that judgment will take place there, and it's not up to us to make that judgment. So then,

When Sam mentioned that about the clarity of the borders of the kingdom of God, I said, well, how do I know that according to the scripture? I'm not suggesting that this needs to be answered fully tonight, but I thought I would throw the question out there. It's something I'll be thinking about, I'm sure, and just throw it out there for others to think about as well.

I don't want this to try and go on and on in this discussion tonight, but throw that question out there for others to think about. Rick Nevala, Pete. I don't intend to answer that question, but I would just say what came to my mind immediately was that it wasn't

When you read church doctrine, the church fathers have studied scriptures and have come with those points, that this is what we believe as believers. So yeah, even though we believe that the word of God is our highest and sole authority, we also believe that the Holy Spirit has worked through our church fathers as well and has come with the church doctrine.

So we can also look at that when we think about, if you want to talk about borders that way. Just a quick thought. The other thing I was thinking about when Marcus was talking, it spurred a thought in me that I had never really thought of it in this way before. And it's referenced as seven times versus 70 times seven. And the matter of whether we err on the side of forgiving or not.

when you look at the history of the Jews and what they did in those days, it was really typical that you gave your brother three chances and then you separated. And so it seems to me like the disciples were in essence saying to Jesus that we're erring on the side of forgiveness. Isn't it

Isn't it good enough that we forgive seven times? They were erring more than double than what was the normal practice of that time. And then what did Jesus then say? Until 70 times seven. An immeasurable amount of grace. That's how far we can err on the side of forgiveness, I think. More than we can imagine.

But God, I still believe that God will show us those times if it never happens. But on our own part, that's what we can know and feel in our minds, that it's immeasurable. So we're almost quarter after nine. I don't know if there's any other comments on this topic. There's been lots and lots of, I'm going to say, good discussion.

with the common word that the gospel is freely preached, and that we trust in the Holy Spirit to reveal if there's a time when we shouldn't. And it's, to me, a horrible time. If I can just imagine not being able to preach to my father or something, that would be a horrible thing. And that's the kind of stories, like we heard from Eric, that the Holy Spirit is obviously revealing at those times.

But so is there any final other comments on this topic? Randy? Up front, Pete? Once again, we've

Certainly these recent weeks and months have been precious in this way that although we've all had our anxiousness over the topic and the discussions, whether it's personally among friends and our families, among boards, speakers, and through sermons and in our congregation life we've visited about this,

want to freely share that which we have received. And just to say, as I mentioned when we had a recent discussion on the Rockford board members and some speakers who were present, that I feel like I've pondered a lot about the way this question

forgiveness would would not be preached and um when it is asked in this way it kind of demands an answer of yes or no and feel like you know that is the kind of the stumbling block you know for for many um for few some have felt that it can't be answered any other way that no there would never be a time

And others say, well, we can't say absolutely. And there are portions, as have been mentioned this evening, of scripture which should show. And it feels that when we would want an absolute answer of no,

it doesn't allow then for the Holy Spirit to do its work. And so, again, we've heard preciously this evening how the Holy Spirit will guide and teach even in these things. And I mentioned how when I've heard this term,

word withholding I I cringe because I don't I don't like to to hear that I don't like to think of it that way at all because to me it all that automatically implies that that me we as people are taking it upon ourselves to in some way or

of repentance or penitence of one asking for forgiveness and again we've heard this evening how that's that isn't our place at all but rather the work of the Holy Spirit it's God's work and so I have tried to think of it in this way when can't we not

not a matter of withholding, but when can't we? And it's because, again, as we've heard, that the Holy Spirit would guide in a different way to show what is the right love in this situation. And it's not in this way, in my mind, judging.

taking it upon ourselves to inquire or put conditions, but just that we would want to freely and in love preach and visit about most important matters of living faith. And so the only

part that has really come to me is this kind of situation where in our actions, what we say, we would in some way give one a false assurance of being heaven acceptable when they don't believe as we do.

or that in some way we are joining with them and we defile ourselves in this way. And that kind of situation, the heart's condition, God, through his Holy Spirit, will reveal. And I know there are many, many examples where Jesus teaches about forgiveness and, again, how he forgave and what if.

An example he was for us because he told us to go forth and do that which he did, to wash each other's feet. But there was also one time that I thought about was the time of the rich young man. I'll read a couple of verses from Mark 10. It tells us that when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running

him good master what shall i do that i may inherit eternal life and jesus said unto him why callest thou me good there is none good but one that is god thou knowest the commandments do not commit adultery do not kill do not steal do not bear false witness defraud not honor thy father and mother and he answered and said unto him master all these have i observed from my youth

Then Jesus, beholding him with love, it says, beholding him, loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest, go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved.

for he had great possessions. And to me, what this portion is telling us is of a time with Jesus where one came with this most important question, how might I get to heaven? What do I need to do to reach heaven? Same kind of question as if one would come and say, I would want to have my sins forgiven.

And Jesus, knowing his heart, referred him to the law. And after that, this one who obviously was rich in himself said that he had fulfilled the law. And Jesus was still loving him and said, one thing thou lackest, go sell all that you have. So in other words, to get rid of all that

of your own, and come humbly as a grace beggar. And then you will have a treasure in heaven. Take up the cross and follow me. But this one still couldn't do that. He was sad and he went his way. So this was a much different experience that Jesus had

man as he had with others, where he said, Thy faith hath made thee whole, thy sins be forgiven thee, where he knew their heart. So it's just another portion that, to me, enlightens that

There can be such a situation where the heart isn't acceptable as a grace beggar, and it doesn't say here that God didn't love him, Jesus didn't love him. He gave him the right instruction, wholesome instruction as to what he should do, but testimony wasn't there. He went the other way.

But I too, you know, worried much about these matters and these discussions and want to simply believe my own sins forgiven. Will you forgive me? And I just have one last thought. A brother mentioned in a speech a little while ago about

the role and duties of boards, how it says in our constitutions and bylaws that God's word is the highest authority, and we should defer to that. I just have this follow-up question. Is there a concern that that hasn't been the case? I feel, from what I've heard this evening and explanations of our...

brothers, sister, and so on, that God's word has still been the highest authority as they've confessed how they believe and would understand these matters and how these matters have even been brought by our boards and speakers to the congregation when it's felt that it needs to be visited in the congregation. That God's word has been

most important or highest authority. If it hasn't, that too would be something to visit about. Thank you. So I think it was Ken's hand went up back there. I'd like to encourage everybody to be free. I know I remind you of the time, but also we want to be free and share and have these conversations.

Yeah, I'd just like to say it's been good to be here. It's nice to hear all the comments and I brought up that portion of the highest authority and I think some of the concerns is mainly I think it's good to base all our doctrines on scripture and we start, I know it's nice to use these examples of different situations where people have experienced it where they weren't able to forgive and that

We should turn to the Bible, and of course we know the Holy Spirit will open that understanding. So it's not the Bible alone, but it's the Holy Spirit as well. So it's been good to be here. Ron Simonson. I just want to ask for my own heart and soul that can I believe my sins forgiven. All sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood.

Gary, wake up. I didn't mean to take two turns and extend the time, but I do need to hear that gospel. I would like my sins forgiven. All sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood. I just wanted to say, coming here, you know, previously we had had this discussion and it

It felt in my mind like, oh, this is an issue that's in Minneapolis or Rockford. But I can't say how good it feels in my heart to hear the unity and the stories and that God's word says amen to my soul and spirit tonight.

I've been waiting and listening to the speeches tonight and finally decided that maybe some of the thoughts in my head may as well come out. First hearing that

I guess, name of doctrine of withholding the first thought that came to mind was of hearing of a heresy from a ways back where it was extreme dryness of spirit such that those who came to seek forgiveness were judged and very, very dryly judged to the point of examples of them having to be on the floor in their hands and knees begging for the gospel.

That's what comes to mind when I hear doctrine of withholding. That's not what I know to be God's kingdom. We've heard pretty clearly that forgiveness, it's our goal and our command to preach forgiveness, yet we understand if it's God's desire that forgiveness is not preached

He'll make it happen. And to go beyond that really becomes confusing to me personally. That's a really easy place to leave it and believe that that's where the matter can lie. Thinking on some of the, I guess, references to doctrinal teachings and looking to the Bible

and hearing some of the talk about concerns of people, of ministers and board members that they are not teaching correctly or are teaching differently. I guess what comes to mind is just looking around this room and looking at myself. I see friends, I see relatives,

I see people I don't know. But I see members of God's kingdom. And how do I know this? Through the Holy Spirit. Even looking at that question of where is God's kingdom, maybe looking at it from the other side instead of where are the borders, how about where is the middle? The disciples essentially asked Jesus that question.

the earth too that how will we know you how will you manifest yourself to us and not to the world and he said that he'll leave a comforter that the holy spirit would be with and would explain the teachings to us and we've seen that to be true not every one of us has understanding but we know even in our own homes when we have to teach about god's kingdom it's not our knowledge and our wisdom

that guides us to do that. It's the Holy Spirit that works within us. No one here in this room is greater than anybody else. We're just people that have the grace to be in God's kingdom. We've also been entrusted to be put in the place of a watchman.

And being given that responsibility, I believe, also means that we need to speak about how we understand how we believe. Because if we don't, aren't we then in that example of the watchman who didn't sound the alarm? If we stay silent and say nothing, even if

we understand or believe correctly, there may be those who need to hear that in order to become awakened or aware of what's going on. So even though we're running out of time tonight, I would just encourage that everybody don't seek those small groups. If you have questions or concerns, speak to your brothers and sisters in faith.

Just don't limit yourselves to people that you think might view issues the same way. God's kingdom is guided by the Holy Spirit, which does not have differing doctrine, ever. Take your questions to the middle of God's kingdom, and you'll see the truth. I'd also like to hear that gospel. Well, sins forgiven, Jesus.

So I'm sitting up here trying to moderate this discussion. I feel my needs to hear the gospel as well. Can I hear it, please? All sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood. All sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood.

Other comments? If not, I'll suggest we move to the next item on the agenda, which is a report from the Midwest Facilities Committee. Let's take about two minutes so we can move the projector out, because I know we're going to want it at least for the Elk River update, and we'll move the table over and get the projector out. So give us a minute or two, and then Jim, I don't know if you need anything other than the

You can come up and sit up as we move.

There are times when you wish you were in the back with half of the group having coffee, so this is one of those times. Thank you for the wave. I didn't want to prepare, trusting that the evening was going to go quickly. I didn't prepare any slides or anything, and so I thought that the main thing

purpose of giving the report here would be that people know or have heard in part what's going on in the questions of the Minnesota Facilities Committee and then questions or visiting about that work can continue outside of the meeting. But at this opportunity when there are members from the southern Minnesota boards, I'll just mention what's gone to this point. The committee members

of the Minnesota Facility Committee are from all of the congregations in Minnesota with the exception of the Iron Range. There's at least one member on the committee. And then there's members on the committee that also are from the LLC board and from the Stony Lake camp.

Stony Lake Camp, or Steve Cullinan used to be on the camp board, and he no longer is. So we are still using his expertise on our committee. The role of the committee is to consider the short-term and long-term facility needs of the Minnesota believers, and this does not include each congregation's own building. That is still something that each congregation concerns themselves with.

In order to do so, the committee will provide direction for the Stony Lake Camp Development Committee, which