Minneapolis Congregation Meeting, May 6, 2018

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Welcome to this Sunday morning discussion. We'll open with song 399.

[Hymn sung (Song 399); lyrics not transcribed]

In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, brothers and sisters, let us join together in an opening prayer.

Gracious Lord Jesus, you have promised in your word that where two or three are gathered in your name, that you will be with them. We are here now more than two or three, and we ask that you are with us. Allow us to hear your shepherd voice.

You have not left us here as orphans but have gifted us the Holy Spirit. And we ask today as we discuss matters of faith that the Holy Spirit will guide us and lead us and that we could hear His voice.

Thank you, dear God, for this beautiful day. Thank you for everything that you have given unto us. We have so much reason to give you thanks. Bless our gathering, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come,

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation

But deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen.

If you feel free to speak, share what's on your heart and mind. Just kind of a few logistics before I turn it over to Mark. First, we'd like to request that there's no recording when I'm recording it here. It's really something that, as I said, everybody has the freedom to speak. If we're recording that, it limits that freedom for people. So we're asking that there's no recording.

From a schedule perspective, in a minute I'll turn this back over to Tomaki, and he'll do an introduction, and then Russ is going to share a short summary of Minister's Camp, because that is very relevant to our discussion today as well. We are planning for a lunch sometime around noon.

And then we need to close by 2.30, so we have a fine closing time because Margaret Brass' [viewal] is here at 5 o'clock this evening, so we need to close at 2.30 and everybody to leave the church by 3 o'clock so it's time to clean the church [before] the [viewal]. So with those words of welcome, welcome to our discussion. Please feel free to speak. I was asked to

Introduce us to the discussion on the basis of Apostle Paul's letter [to the Ephesians], chapter 4, verse 32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake, hath forgiven you. Prepared for this duty I have of my lackings and

In adequacy for this and my sinfulness, I would like to ask you brothers and sisters to attend me and keep all of my sins. I want to believe together with you. To help in following this introduction, I have put this into a few sections. First, to see first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, then righteousness of life, our endeavour.

Seeking for wisdom, endeavoring in love, love in test, putting the best construction on brother and sister, trying the spirits, we are to hear God, not man, and then what is God's love like.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. The fundamental aspect of living faith is simple. It is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, and His work of redemption, the purchasing of mankind back to God from under the power of Satan, sin, and hell.

It was in Jesus that God revered righteousness acceptable to him. If a faith has some other foundation, such faith is death lacking a share in the redemption effected by Jesus and it leaves a person without the possibility of salvation.

By faith, a believing person is a beneficiary of the redemption work of Christ and has the gift righteousness that was given to him by Christ. Just like a little child, the very example of a believer is entirely dependent on the help and nurturing from someone else, so also is the human who desires salvation.

One who has lost his childhood faith and is in the kingdom of Satan can still have hope. Jesus preached the good news. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent ye and believe the gospel. He asked his followers to extend the same invitation. And so the gospel of Christ and his kingdom continues to be preached still today from God's congregation.

The community of saints, Christ himself dwells in his congregation, in his Holy Spirit.

A person becomes part of this community by believing and is then one member of Christ's body. There is no salvation outside of God's congregation. Dear brothers and sisters, when our graves open the last day, we are gathered before the King of the Kingdom,

At that moment, none of us dared to provide any of our own efforts, even a long life of endeavor as a married, but the gift righteousness that we own by faith will suffice. Then righteousness applied for our endeavor.

Paul writes his letter to Ephesian believers from a house arrest in Rome. His letter is quite upbeat, despite the fact that a man in his situation could have a lot to complain about. But he wants to encourage, not discourage, the congregation that is having some trouble. We can learn from that. After expressing God's grace in the first three chapters of Ephesians, he lovingly turns his attention to the truth in Christ.

He clarifies to the Ephesian believers that Christ was not taught to them in such a way that they would continue the life of sin with heart and conscience in filthiness, moral impurity, and greediness. Rather, he appeals to them saying that if you have heard Christ, and that if you have been taught by Him as the truth is in Him, Jesus, you

And then Paul's words put out concerning the former conversation or conduct of life the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts and be renewed in the spirit of your mind and that ye put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. That is the daily battle for us to live soberly, rightly,

And Godly in this present world.

Paul explains this life in Christ to the Roman converts. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. The flesh and spirit are in continuous battle. The dangers of sin continue to be real for us justified, raised children until the very end.

Jesus freed us from sin, but Satan desires to bind us into his shackles. In these battles where we do sin against God and neighbor, the gospel of forgiveness of sins that we freely preach to each other cleanses our consciences and gives strength to travel as free and happy children serving God and neighbor.

Heaven hears when the believers preach forgiveness on earth. The Word of God instructs and comforts as we walk in the fellowship of believers. In the middle of fellowship, Holy Communion, we receive new strength for the journey, and as we walk toward heaven, we often turn to God in prayer, alone or together.

But we can also pray more without ceasing as the Bible teaches. God has heard lots of prayers regarding this meeting and we believe and trust that he can help us. Then seeking for wisdom. We have come to listen to each other and speak. Let us ask for the wisdom of God for our discussion.

If there's someone here who feels that he's lacking wisdom, James teaches, if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given to you. All that our wisdom would be of God and not of ourselves.

James continues, who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you, let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

But if ye have bitter envy and strife in your hearts, glory not and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descended not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envy and strife is,

And there is confusion and every evil word. Brothers and sisters, let us humbly seek not the wisdom of our own, but the wisdom from God, the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. James continues.

The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceful, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy, and the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Endeavoring in love. If your life of faith seems sometimes like a narrow way, and that there are few that walk there with you, do not be discouraged. That is Jesus' description of the way that leads into eternal life. All of us love Jesus and want to make it to heaven.

We desire to follow in carrying our own cross. But it gives so much comfort when we can travel together in love. Our brothers and sisters understand our weaknesses and do not handle us too roughly, even though they may need to remind us of things here and there. Love covers a multitude of sin. Paul exhorts us to this tender-hearted fellowship.

One worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering, forbearing one another in love,

Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Think about it. They had to specifically discuss how they could continue in the unity of the Spirit and in peace already in Paul's time. He points to the great example that we are to follow. Walk in love as Christ also has loved us.

You suppose that sometimes it means the sacrifice of our own, put down our own pride and to have mercy on our brothers and sisters. If we look for fault, we are going to find fault.

Just as God's love causes us to have a forgiving heart for our brother or sister, sometimes it also prompts us to speak to him or her about some matter that is better to be talked about. Often this personal soul-caring visit results in good fruits.

Either the concern was not necessary or the brother or sister really needed that loving visit and was able to be freed from sin. Every now and then the concern does not get resolved and there is a need to visit about matters with a little group or as Jesus says with two or three witnesses.

In rare cases, the matter does not get resolved even when it is later brought to the congregation, at which point it is evident that the person in question does not want to believe the same way anymore. The congregation then acknowledges this with the power that Jesus gave. At any time, a penitent sinner is not turned away but is forgiven.

After Jesus spoke about the instruction of God's searching love, which we often call the church love of Christ, Peter asks a question. If my brother again and again does wrong to me in life, how many times should I forgive him? Would it be enough to forgive him seven times? My brother and sister, have you had to forgive someone seven times?

Have your brothers and sisters needed to forgive you seven times? It is a good thing Peter asked the question and Matthew recorded it for us so that we know that in the mind of our gracious Savior, seven times is just the beginning.

He reminds Peter that the kingdom of heaven is like the king who freely forgives his servant a debt of 200,000 years of wages. The kingdom does not look with favor at the servant who is changing his heart toward another servant who owes him four months worth of wages but now repents.

The king takes such an unforgiving servant to the tormentors until he can pay back all his debt worth 200,000 years of wages. Dear brothers and sisters, the offenses between believers are real. They can be painful, and with time the pain can go deep into one's soul.

The pain can be three more than four months breadth of wages and healing is not easy. However, only God can give a glimpse of the magnitude of our own 200,000 years in debt. God's Holy Spirit teaches us to forgive.

Paul teaches us to forgive one another as God for Christ's sake has forgiven us.

Whether we fall into personal offenses or some other sins, our Master has not left us great children to travel here without his help. As told to us in the book of Revelation, Apostle John was proud to see many heavenly visions in heaven. But in his letter he also describes a heavenly vision on earth that he experienced while traveling in the fellowship of God's children.

He writes that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanseth us from all sin. His experience was the same as the experience of the pastor who wrote the sermon to the Hebrews.

Sin does attach and makes the journey slow. Denying that is making God a liar. It is a good thing that forgiveness of sins is freely preached and believed in the fellowship of the children of life still today. Then love in test. The first fruit of faith is love.

God loved us first, and that has caused us to love Him and other people, especially our brothers and sisters that travel with us toward Heaven, in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. God loves perfectly, we love in part.

Love from the face and lips is easier than love from the heart. But God sees our hearts. Apostle John had traveled with our Lord and learned a lot from him. He later challenged the believers who appeared godly toward heaven but seemed to forget that God wants us to serve Christ in our neighbor. John writes, if a man say I love God and hated his brother, he is a liar.

For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? Sin can harden our hearts and love at the core. In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus our Lord brings us to witness a man who has come to the Temple of Jerusalem.

The man is before the altar of God in this holy place and moment. He is getting ready to give a sacred gift offering to God. It is difficult to think of any more sacred moment than this. There the man remembers that another brother has something against him. Is this familiar to us?

Can it happen that even amongst the very sacred moments we realize that we are flesh and blood and we have offended each other? When this happens to you and me, dear brothers and sisters, let us remember our Lord's advice. Leave there thy gift before the altar and go thy way. First be reconciled to thy brother and then come and offer thy gift.

Other things in life can wait. Then putting the best construction of brother and sister. The rumored mill spins red hot. It is not a good thing. You may have heard a good reminder, only you can prevent forest fires. That was also the instruction of Jesus' brother James. He compared rumors to a forest fire.

Even so, the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. Behold how great a matter a little fire came to it. And the tongue is a fire, a bird of iniquity. So is the tongue among your members that defiles the whole body and setteth on fire the force of nature, and it is set on fire of hell.

Even without the challenge of today's lightning fast communication methods, James noticed how difficult it is for us humans to bridle our mouths when they should be bridled.

But the tongue can no man tame, it is an unruly evil, full deadly poison. Therewith blessed be God, even the Father, and therewith cursed be men, which are made at the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceeded blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things are not so to be.

Let us love each other so much that we do not pass on hurtful rumors. It most certainly is a teaching of the Holy Spirit, firmly rooted in the Word of God. Let us have compassion for our travel friends. Think, if those rumors were said of you, what was it again that Jesus thought we should do unto others? Then trying the spirits.

The Holy Spirit continues the work of Christ in God's Kingdom. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit still today guides God's congregation here on earth. Let us hear what the Spirit speaks unto the churches. Let us hear what the Spirit speaks unto us today.

During the first century a wrong doctrine developed. Some were teaching that Jesus was God but did not come to earth in human form. Apostle John wrote to the congregations that needed to know the correct doctrine in this matter that is not trivial by any means. Beloved, believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God.

Those many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God, every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. Their clear signal was teaching that Jesus was not born into a human flesh is certainly not a teaching of the Spirit of God. But then John also continues.

We are of God. He that knoweth God heareth us. He that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. They who did not hear the believers were of the spirit of error.

So it is that there is only one sheepfold, one shepherd and one Holy Spirit that unites. John immediately continues, Beloved, let us love one another for love is of God, and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is love. We can see from John's writing the careful approach he takes. Maybe he remembered that in his lifetime his master thought that sometimes there are tares in the field but for the sake of the wheat the tares were not plucked out.

Not every contemplation on what a certain Bible portion means is a work of a different spirit. But if things do get bad as they had done in Rome, we can follow Paul's instruction in the last chapter of Romans. Mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which he had learned and avoid them.

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. May God help us.

That we can always be free brothers and sisters among each other in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. Let us put away sin and all that which divides us and cherishes that which keeps us together. Nevertheless, if faith leaves one's heart, so does the spirit that unites him to the other believers.

Let us thus each stay awake in our own place of watching. We are to hear God, not man. We have about one page full. It seems that in most of these letters Paul had to try to put out fires in Corinth. The congregation was in danger of dividing based on their teachers.

We are not immune to that today either. We are naturally prone to certain kinds of kids and personalities. This can be dangerous. Let us not elevate one and push down another.

May we tickle Paul's pride to know people valued his service, nevertheless his eyes danger to the congregation and cause the worship of man quits. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that we all speak the same thing and there be no divisions among you.

But ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Paul asks, is Christ divided?

Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? The great apostle puts out any glory of man and directs it to Christ. Let us always endeavor to do the same. Paul proceeds to speak more on the gifts and how God has set some in specific due. There is something here for us to take to our heart.

Just as we carry brothers in the duties of the local congregations, let us carry those whom God has called into position of responsibility in our central organization. We can simply believe that God, through His congregation, has called them and put them into their positions for the edification of the body of Christ.

Our central organization does vital work in serving the local congregations in fostering unity that God's Spirit desires. And then in any of the duties of God's congregation, we serve at the will of the congregation.

Whether we are asked to serve or whether we are asked not to serve in any specific duties, we can nevertheless rejoice of the gift of faith. Let us hear what the Spirit speaks in the congregation. We people have different gifts.

Paul continues in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 with an extensive discussion on gifts. He has respect for the different gifts God has given to different people and understands that the congregation appreciates them too. We do not need to get too hung up with this either. We can be happy when someone has gifts to serve and let Christian freedom prevail.

It is fine and right to desire for gifts through which to serve God's congregation, but rather than being able to serve with great gifts, Paul expounds unto the Corinthians and us yet a more excellent way, the way of serving God's congregation with God's love.

And then what is God's love like? Charity suffereth long and is kind. Charity envieth not. Charity vaunteth not itself, [is not puffed up].

Do not behave yourself unseemly. Seeketh not her own. Is not easily provoked. Thinketh no evil. Or we could say,

It doesn't keep an account of all that wrong that one has experienced. Sometimes this is really tough. May God help us to restore freedom and to deliver us from that evil. Charity also rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth.

Paul's loving instruction to the Ephesians is instruction to us. Therefore, putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be ye angry and sin not, let not the sun go down upon your wrath, neither give place to the devil.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and evil speak and be put away from you. Let all malice...

And be ye kind one to another and tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven you. We pray, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us. Jesus says,

By this shall men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Dear brothers and sisters, do we have that love? And what has made it difficult and what is the wisdom of the Holy Spirit that we need today?

Greetings from the ministers and I think that is a relevant thing for this discussion as well. Thank you.

First of all, dear brothers and sisters, I bring greetings from Florida, also from my dear wife and others who are still down there, only a couple of us left. But I also ask for myself and my own sinfulness tonight through that gospel. What I'm trying to capture for you is a great summary of a camp that went from

3 o'clock on Friday until about noon on Sunday, so much, much discussion in many terms of speech, but perhaps I can give you a flavor of some of what happened. Keith was the director of camp.

We noted that now on this continent there are 122 brothers serving in the ministry, eight of them no longer travel, and we had about 104 brothers come to camp. It was an amazing turnout. So our Friday's discussion was on Olavi Voittonen's presentation

We did a December speaker's meeting in Ogu. That presentation was on the Law and the Gospel, and it was translated and printed in The Voice of Zion, so many of you have probably read it. I'm not going to spend any time discussing that, just to give you a flavor for

As he listed topics for discussion, that's where we spent most of our time also. And they were, as a servant of the Word, how do I care for my life of faith, the righteousness of faith, and the righteousness of life in our teaching, and Brother [name unclear] touched on that also, repentance, and the forgiveness of sins in our sermons.

So, a great variety of comments of course followed. For example, on confession, many commented that it is difficult to preach or to serve if you have sins on your own conscience. Luther had a high regard for confession, for its comfort. He said, sinners have the freedom to make use of private confession.

Each according to his own need or the inclination. No one is forced. One brother said that when you put sin away, then that rebuke no longer deals.

Another one quoted Juusila. He said, To never affect sin to govern in your heart, for it leads to heresy. Jesus taught the importance of the salt of the word. Even through weak words, God is able to work. That was

A brief summary of hours of discussion for Friday. On Saturday, your brother Jim Frantti gave some updates on the LLC office and staff, as you're all aware of. Talked about the mutual work with the SRK

and SFC, we noted that the communications now are to the point of being weekly communications. God is uniting us as one, and Jesus prayed that we would be one, as he and the Father are one.

Then Jim did a somewhat brief review of some of the issues that we are discussing, and he said simply, I will tell you how I believe. Please tell me how you believe. Starting with forgiveness, he said, could there ever be a situation where God's children cannot preach the gospel? He said simply, let's leave it in God's hands.

The keys of the Kingdom, of course, were given to its own as Jesus gave those two keys. God's congregation is, of course, quick to loose and slow to bind. But both are used in love and are part of the complete Gospel, as it is very much a common doctrine.

How can a person receive forgiveness? It is through the preaching of the gospel. It is God's forgiveness. So as a child of God, we live in grace and forgiveness. Then Jim said there is no forgiveness in the elements of the sacraments. Living under grace versus

Continual forgiveness. Sins are atoned for, but I need forgiveness in the way Jim put it. The robe of righteousness. Can the robe be stained? Christ's righteousness is perfect and is not blemished by our sins, but sin stains our consciences.

And there are so many biblical examples, the washing of the robes, the washing of the feet, encouraged to put sin away, found in so many places. Then there's the topic of watchmen on the walls, and he referred to Paul's letter to the Corinthians, his first letter, 12th chapter, that God has set some, as Paul writes.

Servants of the Lord and others have a duty to watch. Paul instructed the elders at Ephesus, according to Acts 20, that this could not elevate, rather it places one in the place of a servant, as Jesus noted.

Another topic that has come up in some discussions in localities is acceptance of children and birth control. It's so important that we keep God as the creator and giver of life. Self-righteousness, law-mindedness is another topic of discussion. And sometimes it seems that if a brother has warned about sin, such is considered law-minded.

Jim commented that I thought read it nicely. He said that if you look at the words of Jesus, so many of his words were so gracious, but if you read the Sermon on the Mount, he gets pretty explicit about the lust of the eyes and the pride of life and so on. Office of the Holy Spirit. Let's hear what the Spirit says, as we just heard it draw here by our bucket.

Jesus called it the Comforter that led us to trust in that Holy Spirit. And then finally, how do I view the Kingdom of God? If I analyze it, I can lose sight of the beauty and the borders of the Kingdom.

And so then the discussion went on the rest of the day. And I would summarize it in this sense, and I was cutting out so many, many thoughts and quotes from different brothers. But brother after brother stated how the presentation answered to their heart and their spirit and said, Amen. This is how I believe. This is the message that we have heard throughout time.

One asked, why change the words? Until this day, grace has been sufficient for us. Why add the words of continual forgiveness? Another said, Amen. The Spirit is touched and awake in the congregation. So many knew of and spoke of and prayed for this weekend. There's been almost three years of discussion among [ministers] who are [unclear].

I am troubled over our differing understandings. And the discussion continued. One brother said, cherish the gift for living faith. Another said, since I was a child, I have been taught, put sin away. Let's believe as we have always been taught.

Another brother stated, Jim Frantti stated how he believes, we have heard how each that has spoken has believed. It is important that each of us would speak how we believe. Those who have a different understanding should freely speak. If you do not feel this unity, ponder, for the spirit does not divide.

And Jesus says, he who does not gather with me [scattereth].

So then, in the late afternoon discussion after our coffee break, we decided that there'd be an opportunity, because this is a minister's camp, as you're aware, so if you put your name on the list, it took an hour and a half for all of us for your name to come up. And so, because of the oneness of that conversation, to that point, we thought, let's stop that and take an opportunity for those who desire to express a differing point of view. So we did that.

And there were comments by half a dozen brothers who discussed other aspects of faith but did not join with the others in agreeing with this presentation. These speeches differed from all the others in thoughts and concerns. The speeches seemed to be saying that there is a problem with law-mindedness and lack of love and grace. They emphasized God, Jesus, and the Word, but the Holy Spirit and congregation was missing in some of them.

After these speeches, the discussion continued with more supportive comments. We always preach an unconditional gospel. It covers all sin. Confession is never perfect, but the gospel is still complete. We confess those sins that we feel in our heart and that bother our conscience.

So we live under grace, the undeserved and unlearned love and mercy of God. The audible gospel is necessary for spiritual new birth and for all our endeavors. In our evening discussion, one brother said, sin is the way to leave the kingdom.

And he referred to the Gospel of John, the 10th chapter, where Jesus talks about the hiring. And he says in one of those verses, And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers.

Luther quotes Paul from Romans 16, a message that's read from and has been heard. Now I beseech you, [brethren, mark them] which cause division and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoided. And this brother continued and said, if I serve and the sheep become restless, I have to stop and I have to ask myself, what am I saying that is causing me?

Luther says, it is additions, his brother said, he calls it side doctrines, which are not the same as the right path, and it is the responsibility of the sheep to judge, is the voice correct? Sometimes, his brother says, I have experienced that the voice is not quite the same, the flock addresses it. The gospel is the power of God, not my power, but God's power.

Another brother said, this is the way the Holy Spirit leads and guides. If you hear the voice, hear the voice of the Spirit. Let's hear the loving voice of the Savior and take care of matters. Another brother said, I am echoing the feelings expressed in Jim's presentation. I was rejoicing. Some of the comments troubled me also. Continual forgiveness troubled me also. And he said, heavenly manna is only for one.

Another brother said, there is no doubt but that God's Spirit has been here with us, but also the enemy has done his work. The enemy wants to put so much smoke into the house of God that we cannot see. I believe sin, childhood. I was troubled with some of the speeches. One of the names mentioned was Brother John. It was lovingly mentioned to John that God has given him lots of gifts to understand scriptures.

May God give you brothers to hear the congregation, Mother. You have been putting more and more smoke into the congregation. We want that not one of us will lose his precious faith. God leads his congregation in the right way. That was the point of the evening. We had scheduled to go until 8, but we went all the way to 10 o'clock where the gospel was preached.

And it was preached to many in abundance, to many who had needed it. Steve Haataja was moderating that discussion. He then ended and he said, there are no differences between any of the organizations, LLC, SRK, SFC. After that event, I was with Brother Eric Simonson,

The Holy Spirit has been speaking to me today. I have been battling against the Kingdom of God, and He asked for the Gospel, and the Gospel was preached. Dear brothers and sisters, that's what rejoicing broke out among us today. God's Spirit moved very powerful. Without question, the Holy Spirit has been guiding

I pray because the small weak lambs are suffering. God has chosen us to speak, but if we begin to think that we are wise and that we know, then the enemy is taking control. Pray for the heart of a child. Serve your heart. Another brother said, Dear brother, I sat and listened today to so many speeches, but some have left me in trouble. Words have been fine, but they have caused trouble in our hearts.

God's Word is our faith and life's highest authority. Luther says God's Word cannot exist without God's children, and God's children cannot live without the Word. Luther writes about the most difficult of sins to recognize is the sin of reason. He said all of the other gross sins can be seen easily, but not the sin of reason.

And it requires preaching to purge that sin. Then he said, this is none other than the house of God and the door of heaven. Over the years I have heard many exhorting some of you brothers, you know who you are, please speak to me. Then he said, I fear we are in the brink of a great battle and I am on earth, because I know I am such a poor and a great soldier.

And that not all come home from the battlefront, and we can't be wounded. Another brother said, Jim noted before the last heresy,

In other words, Jim Frantti at the end of his presentation described his own conversion from heresy, where he had his long list of things, and he figured, if I could get all these checked off, then I would understand where the kingdom of God is. And he found, as you probably heard him say, that when he went to visit an elderly sister with his long list, she told him that, I don't know if I can answer all your questions, but I have my sins forgiven, and I have peace with God.

And Jim Frantti said he realized that this is my opportunity for grace, and if I don't take hold of it, will it be given another? And then Jim said, I don't know if all of my questions were eventually answered or not, but it didn't make a difference anymore. He had peace with God. So this brother said that Jim thought he could decide in his own mind which was right. I have taken the same approach.

God's spirit is here, and this approach has started to take me where I don't want to go. He asked for the gospel, and the gospel was preached. I don't think, brothers and sisters, that anybody who could return to speak didn't feel the old sinfulness and didn't ask for the gospel. Another brother said, these are the struggles that we have had for the past several years.

Some of our children and some of my siblings have battled against the congregation of God. We have prayed to God and he has answered in part. Another brother said continual forgiveness kills faith. I first heard it 10 years ago and now it came up again by our dear brother John in the Rockford family discussion. It is a wrong doctrine.

Our prayers have been answered, Mother Mother said. The Holy Spirit has answered in a remarkable way. If your brothers leave without taking care of matters, it is a significant step. If your brother John was exhorted to take care of matters so his gifts could be used to gather, he did not.

That went late. On Sunday, we started again with the discussion. The brothers said, we rejoiced in our hearts the way the day had ended. There was much exhortation to some brothers to take heed of the voice of the mother. Your brother Craig said, from my own heart, I wanted to understand everything, but realized that I needed to just believe as a child. He asked for the gospel.

He said, my simple desire is to walk as a child, to speak as a child, to be as a child. He said, carry me as a brother. Dear Brother John, in his turn to speak, he noted that the first speaker's meeting was recorded in Acts 15. But he said, what am I to repent of? The response from Finland was that continual forgiveness is poor doctrine.

That I am weak in words, I am faulty. If the term continual forgiveness causes confusion, I will avoid it. I don't compare myself to Luther, but as he said before the council, it is not good to go against one's conscience. Unless I am convinced by scriptures, I cannot recant.

John asked for the gospel and it was preached, but he did not agree with the larger concerns that were lovingly expressed to him by brothers at the camp. Several brothers commented that, my new prayer is, dear father, keep this child.

Thank you. Thank you, Russ, for those greetings from ministers camp. And now we have time to discuss. What time is lunch, just so we know? Well, it is when it is.

I'm not here to speak about anyone else, only myself, but first of all I want to give a little

Some things that have come up over the years. I'm just going to list them as topics, and then I'll conclude my little talk. I'm not going to go blow by blow, but the first meeting was held in January of 1996. And back in the 90s, there was an issue over videos.

What videos are appropriate? What videos are inappropriate?

And my principle that I stated, not mine, it was in the Päivämies, also in the Voice of Zion, the column, the principle was this, the content is the deciding factor. It's not whether it's taken by ourselves or it's purchased.

It's not whether it's live people in the video or cartoon figure figures, but it's the content which is the deciding factor. Just as there are good books and bad books, just as there are good CDs, bad CDs, just like there are good radio stations, bad radio stations. The guiding principle, according to the Holy Spirit, is content decides.

And that did not seem to fare well with some people. In others, my sermons are too academic. I use notes. I use quotes of others. Big issue back in the 1990s was the issue, is everything black and white with believers? Or are there such things as gray areas?

Well, there's a column in the recent Voice of Zion back page, I think it's a February issue by Harri Vähäjylkkä. He clearly states not everything is black and white for all believers. There are gray areas. Back in the 1990s, one example using to illustrate

Black and white was this that there were believers in the commons area at an apartment. It was a time of elections and some believers were watching the election results. Another believer came and shut off the television. He said, believers don't watch television. It's black and white.

So I was said to be pushing the so-called exception to the rule. And I am basically been asked many times, are you saying that American Christianity is legalistic? No, of course not. It's impossible.

Each individual believer, each of us, some have the tendencies to be lenient, others have the tendency to be more tight or legalistic or all-minded. Each one is different and have their own weaknesses and tendencies. Some believers may have at times tendencies one direction and another direction.

So some of the statements or concerns about me. I have a proud spirit. They're wrong. Righteousness of faith versus righteousness of life. What is the relationship one to another? My funeral sermons have too much

What would I say? Talking about that deceased person, reminiscing and talking about them. I use the PIN card. I have, why am I always in contact with people in Finland? And so at some of the meetings in the past, you have the wrong spirit, you are causing a division, and there are two groups. So these are going back all the way to the 1990s.

It's never come to the congregation. It's just been with the ministers or at the board level. And as of late, I've been reading all the same. I had this left me to finish publication, SRK's publication, and finding interesting articles. I've been translating them and sending them to some friends of mine and said that this is destructive work.

Just last Sunday someone called me and they said that they're here during our spring services at the coffee table and one person told them and they called and told me that my sermons have no food in them.

So, another, last fall there was, at one board meeting, a comment was made that only 25% of the congregation understands your sermons. And based on your sermons, do the congregation members even know how you believe?

So, with that, I say no more about those things, but all I say is, as all ministers, all servants, no matter what your capacity, it is the local congregation that calls and places an individual into office. It is the local home congregation that takes care of their servants.

And if need be, it is the local congregation that then puts them to rest or takes them down or out of the office. And as often has been said, and I say it with my heart, the Kingdom of God doesn't need me, but I need the Kingdom of God.

So my only prayer and heart's desire is this, that I could be one child in God's kingdom, a grace-taker, and be able to gather even one crumb that falls from the table of grace in the Lord's house. Thank you, John and Janelle.

God sees all and knows all. I trust that he knows my heart. We have been blessed over and over by this congregation many times in the last 20 plus years. These will be the memories that I cherish. Currently, I will be open of our trials, hoping that the congregation can help us with them. I want to speak of the truth with kindness.

In Proverbs 15.1 says, A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger. When I was dating John, I had no knowledge of any of these issues. When I was dating John, I had no knowledge of any issues. I felt that I knew him through faith and listening to his sermons and God-given gifts.

He told me a little bit of these trials when we were dating. I realized that I was in love and I didn't realize the extent of the problem. I was eager to serve the congregation with him to the best of my abilities. I knew that I would have limited time due to my other job, but I felt that I would be in the love of the congregation and they would understand that I would try my best.

Fairly quickly into our marriage, we met with Keith and Kathy regarding some concerns towards us. These were mainly righteousness of life issues, such as videos, cards, bowling, et cetera. In our discourse, it was quite clear that Keith's expectations were that we all say the same thing on all of these issues of righteousness of life, even if they were not what we felt.

There was no room for our traditions and thoughts. I felt suffocated by the demands expressed at that time. For example, I felt that I would have to try and guess what Keith would want me to say. That was the last time we spoke together as couples in the fall of 1999.

Since that time, it felt like a lot of the differences stemmed from these type of issues. And I refer to the Romans 14 about the eating meat and judging others. I won't read it all.

I feel like I've been monitored for any potential mistake and judged harshly for anything and everything. The saddest part for me is to hear over and over, there's something wrong with you. I am concerned with everything you do and say or everything you don't say and do. These private meetings started a long time ago. The caretaking meetings, for a better word,

For lack of a better word have been countless and exhausting. The concerns often have been vague or misleading or reported from anonymous sources. I remember in 2005, for example, John had a frightening meeting with the other ministers. It was the first time I remember that people meeting with him were saying that he was going to start a heresy.

I felt nothing was ever good enough or that we could never meet expectations. I started documenting my fears and some told me that was wrong too. I told my mom that some people would give good feedback but others only criticism. It was confusing to sort out.

John was admonished for studying for sermons, prepping for sermons, researching for sermons, using note cards or outlines, using the easier language of the different translations for the Bible class, even though he was on the committee for exploring a new Bible translation. Many harsh statements with larger groups of people occurred. Many times I heard, if you don't repent,

I could hardly believe what was happening. You have to go in front of the congregation to repent of saying that not all stem cell research is wrong. You advised somebody to use birth control for the women's health problems and told the story in an, and the story was told in an incorrect way so that the couple that I had talked to could not be identified and spoken to.

You need to do this differently. We don't like your husband's funeral or wedding sermons. We're going to cut your pay, unless you. You're not involved with the youth enough. You do not attend all the functions of the church, even though you were not invited or involved in them. Conflicts are comfortable to everyone, especially me.

It's not okay to use the easy solution and blame it on one person. We have the responsibility to follow the church law of Christ even if people are nervous or intimidated to do so. When we don't do this, it creates chaos. I feel that we all could do better on this.

I feel a lot of these problems today stem from common denominators of these kinds of meetings with Keith and John and Russ. This has then been spread through gossip and perpetuated by many. Many times it's said if John would repent, these problems would go away. I also noticed a theme that we were told by Keith that John and I were not believing correctly or had a different spirit.

He would say that he doesn't know exactly what it was, but others felt it too. When we asked for more concrete advice, it was not given, and the others' concerns were anonymous, and who they were.

I feel that we wouldn't tell our own kids that there's something wrong with them and not speak of what we want to address. We want to address the wrong and not criticize the person for the misunderstanding. It goes all ways, my way, your way, everyone's way. I pray that God has the power to heal all of us. I feel that I have not had the chance to explain myself to others in many of these complaints or discussions.

People are uncomfortable talking to you. Is this according to the Bible? This is something I keep thinking of and we can all ask ourselves, are we looking at our brethren, those walking with us, with eyes of compassion? When we can think of that, we realize there should be no fear to approach another believer who we have a concern about.

We need to have open, transparent dialogue, not debate the conversation without looking for fault in others. Of course, wrongs need to be addressed, but addressed clearly and lovingly. I pray no one would go astray. God has given us all different gifts. They are to be used. They are not to make one proud nor hidden under a bushel.

I was thinking about Martha and Mary and how Martha was trying to diminish Mary's gifts and Jesus remembered all of God's gifts in people.

Over the years we have been in multiple meetings where it's emphasized, as I said, that Keith has concerns of John and I. Many times it felt like he was unable to voice what the problem was, just the overall feeling or state how John freely states the other side of the coin on different issues.

I just felt like this was a style and that John has to be open to speak about our doctrine.

This has been very stressful. I feel like I can't live under that microscope. It feels like a division has been tried, or groups have been tried to be made and perpetuated by gossip within groups that haven't been speaking with love with each other. Feels like there's been almost purposeful misunderstandings.

We've also attended meetings with aggressive words and untrue accusations, and they've been over and over. Words like, you're gathering a flock. You need to repent, but not telling us what. You are proud. You clamp up. You ask for glory when enthused about topics. You're too personal in sermons. You're too historical in sermons. You're not popular enough. When you speak about Christian liberty, you give permission to sin.

One person from Finland said, I am Finland. You don't need to speak with anybody else over there. I was in one time where they said, Janelle, why are you here? And let's talk about the big elephant in the room. And I think the saying is, let's talk about the elephant in the room.

There is another one that I went to and it's good that you're here. This is going to be so ugly. You will not be able to handle it. Another, Keith is the true spiritual and temporal leader of this congregation. Another, you don't need to be paid because you're not fulfilling your job requirements. I have tried to be helpful in the congregation and be satisfied and content with the work that has come

I love Day Circle and interactions with kids. I try to support the camp work, medical stuff for the camps and services and mission work temporarily. I willingly support John and his work when he has to be gone and I'm not opposed to it. I'm supportive of many in the kingdom answering many calls from concerned parents about their children's pediatric issues.

I've tried to use my gifts and I give all the glory to God. I want to be in the love of all.

Things that have bothered me is repeated assertions of being a proponent of birth control regardless of whether there are women's health issues. I don't believe that's true. A demand that we form a group of people to analyze any medical situation that we are involved in and the reproductive health of the mother. A lot of it feels like bullying.

Certainly at the end of many of these interactions there's been forgiveness preached and I truly want to feel that but the behavior doesn't change and it's affecting us all now throughout Zion. Now it seems like many more people are informed that we are the problem. The emphasis

By someone they hear what we say is incorrect doctrine but say it's still wrong because their own spirit is not being answered. Perhaps we're not listening to each other. We're all faulty and can be biased at times when we're not getting along with others. Many times over the years I've been sensitive to these difficult times in meetings. Often I would speak to my family about

A big red phone that people would be encouraged to call and make complaints against John and they wouldn't have to talk to us and they could be exploited against us. I never knew who these people were, so sometimes in my mind they were everyone. The accusations seem surreal. They do not feel true. This is called gaslighting in the psychological aspect.

For example, when we are fearful of these meetings, try to say that this is not how we believe, or caretaking seems manipulative or harsh, they say, no, this is love. I don't know anyone who could withstand this chronically. These methods are directly against the instructions in the Bible.

I feel that God has given me these trials. I've tried to be patient. I've tried to be long suffering and just be thankful for my trials on this earth. I don't want anybody else's trials. But I have not known what to say or what to do, who I should talk to about them with. I've tried to talk to the people at the time.

We're instructed to go to the person with any potential offense and speak kindly and with love. And if they do not understand you, then bring another with you, as you just discussed. Love goes with the truth. In Galatians 6.2 it says, Bear one another's burdens. Do not suppress others or subjugate them under one's own authority.

And then there's the golden rule. There's what I call the platinum rule in Philippians 2, 3. Let nothing be done through contention or vainglory, but in humility, each esteeming the others above himself. I will say love has been broken. I want this to stop. I do pray to God that this will be opened. I want love restored. I do not want a heresy.

What do you want to hear? What will you hear? Persistent overwatchfulness and criticism can be forgiven over and over, 70 times 7. However, there comes a time when this atmosphere must change so people can breathe and live.

It's not okay to perpetuate this kind of behavior towards others. If you can't have love and kindness towards others, we have to stop and take care of our matters and figure it out.

It hasn't seemed to me that John is raising against another speaker, trying to perpetuate these things, brought personal charges against somebody, but has rather spent his time trying to use the Bible and Christian writings to instruct and help others questioning a situation or idea. He wants joy and peace. So do I. And whatever is in the congregation's hands and God's will. Can you forgive me?

Thank you Janelle. We have next Risto and then Tom.

This kingdom is truly a beautiful kingdom. It needs to be discussed openly. [unclear] Can you speak closer? Closer to the microphone.

When there are matters that happen and accusations that are being made, no better place than here in God's congregation to discuss these heavy issues. It saddens my heart to

I hear all these things and I don't think either side has been perfected. I think there's been mistakes made that have not been acknowledged. There has been some abuse and that needs to be addressed.

I think the... I think we gotta start out by examining ourselves.

And realize what wretched sinners each one of us is. When we do this, we realize that we're no better than the next guy. We can go out and talk, talk about matters, talk them in love. We can have disagreements, that's okay.

It seems like sometimes in discussions, when presentations are made, that maybe the one that's presenting is giving their own opinions. The assumption is, well, what I said here is the only correct way.

Also there's been this talk of two spirits. I guess I don't understand what you mean by two spirits. Do you mean that there's unbelievers here? Because we know that only one spirit can exist.

All these things that were being said caused division. And I think there needs to be an abundance of caution that should be taken when we start throwing words out.

Yesterday at the discussion in Rockford, it was a very beautiful discussion on friendship. There was one brother that brought out and asked this question about people making the statement that, well, I don't believe like you.

It seems like those statements are made quickly. It stifles any open conversation and discussion about matters that are most important.

My prayer here today is that matters can be taken care of, love can be restored, and when this happens, then we can have unity.

I myself feel weak in my words. When I examine myself, I realize who am I to even be talking. I ask that if I can have my many faults forgiven. In Jesus' name, amen. And Todd and Lisa.

Both John and Janelle have spoken to some of the past

In 96 I was still in high school myself so I don't have as long of a history and being called to serve the congregation just over six and a half years ago is I guess when myself became more involved because I would go to the board meetings.

A couple of, I just want to say that in my mind there was two different aspects. Janelle, you brought up many different things, but there was the employer-employee aspect, or what John's duties are.

And maybe that was, there's been some fault there with the board and clearly identifying, I don't know that, but it's been a, that part has been a struggle, just in what are John's duties. So there was that part, which now, obviously, [in Minneapolis there's John here],

John, you're not full time, so I guess we can, we'd say focus on the other part of that, the spiritual aspect of it. I don't, I don't know, after I raised my hand I was kind of shaking my head wondering why I did that, but

There's certainly unrest in God's kingdom. And the unrest that is happening, I would say very timidly, but just also stating it as it is, that

There is another group. There's two groups. It's pretty clear. So for us to say there isn't, I think we're denying that fact. It has been troublesome that there is another group.

With this other group, there has been wrong understanding, clearly. On items such that stemmed back from, I would say, the very first topic that came up, which was, would there ever be a time that the gospel couldn't be preached?

The most recent one is continual forgiveness. And there are those, I would say in that group, that have told privately to people, not publicly, that we believe differently. The

The concern is, and maybe I should say this too, that I'm timid to say this, because A, I have weak words, weak understanding. Dear brother John, I love you. We've had nice camps together. We've served together.

The thing that seems like has continued to, there's a reoccurring theme, but you have been tied to these people, whether you like it or not.

I'm not saying that you want that. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but you have to. And so that's where, I would say even in God's kingdom, where this concern comes from.

That if there are those in that group that say that they believe differently than what the voice of the Spirit has been teaching, or how that we've, I would say it's different than how we've always believed, then that's where the concern is.

This also, too, that this, I would say, accusation of spiritual bullying or abuse scares me. It scares me because

I have only, in the six and a half years that I was involved at the board meetings and so on, I've only myself felt love from the other board members and speakers.

I'll give an example of one time though and I don't know if this constitutes spiritual bullying but it was when the topic of the withholding where if there would ever be a time that the gospel could be preached we had a board meeting

And we went around, we wanted to simply, I would classify it as simply wanting to know where each brother, how they believe, and we each confessed our faith to each other, how we see the matter, how we believe. One brother

We talked a lot, but after he was done speaking, I didn't know what he said. I was confused. And I would say the majority of the board was confused. And so we continued to ask the board members, how do you believe? And I would say at the end of the night, there was still confusion.

And that lasted for quite some time. We were trying to get clarification. Not trying to put them on the hot seat, but simply wanting to know. And I would say that we are weak, but after these board meetings or at the end, we would preach the gospel.

Many times we all felt our own lackings. But there's been some, I would say there's been maybe possibly some bitterness or something that has continued to linger because those conversations and so on keep coming up, which I don't understand.

So there has been, in my six and a half years, if you could say that was spiritual bullying, I don't know. But as on the board and with other brothers, I have felt that we simply have tried to, in our own weak way,

Express our own thoughts and feelings. And also, I would say the gospel has been preached much. But yet there is something that lingers. So what is that? I don't know. I don't have any idea. And I pray that

These offenses and so on could be cared for, put under the blood, and any wrong doctrine would also, if there are those that believe differently, that we could speak openly and also put those under the blood of Christ.

But even myself, feeling my own weakness, I know that I have weak words and ask that for all my doubts, sins, and weak words, can you preach that gospel to me?

This discussion of the two groups, the two spirits, is really unsettling to me. Can you hear me okay?

I hear a lot, well, there's a wrong understanding, but I never hear, what does the Bible say and what's the correct understanding, and I've heard some scripture. And so, I don't know what group I'm part of, but I can tell you that I've never felt unfed by a sermon by John.

And I have also received articles not directly from John, but they've helped me to understand some of these issues that we're facing in this time. The feeling about not being fed by a sermon. In my life, there was one time when I did not feel fed, and that was when the gospel was not preached.

And I have never felt that another time. Just some of my jumbled thoughts. I just want to ask if you can all bless me.

First thing, okay, [I was hoping it would be lunchtime.] I guess so. First, I'd like to say that, [like I've told people],

John, you closer? Okay. I've always felt that you have been very gracious to me. That was kind of a tip off the pocket from my mother, who is very gracious. Always been. I don't feel like that.

I don't feel like you have any kind of personal history of either one of them, negative history. I thought I would like to give a piece of my perspective of her coming here to the city's

It's going to be 18 months to go, come to work at the LLC office, of course, up in Bushland. We kind of hear just vague echoes of something happening.

So, one of the experiences I had was about a year back at a meeting at this church with the Spring, [I think it was the]

Board members' workshop. Sam Roiko gave a presentation related to the Watchmen on the Walls. And I thought it was very scriptural, very clear, and there was a few comments.

During that meeting that arose my interest as to why they seemed so different. One of those comments was John's comment related immediately to research I suppose he had made about the outlaw-minded spirit alignment, the heresy from Finland that was

People were very demanding of

I'm not sure of all the aspects of it. I did ask John during the intermission lunchtime what he meant by that. He thought that that was here, and I believe that he said no, but then at another point he said, well, what's in Finland has come here.

And I think that relates to the time of taking, sorry. That thought has banned in conversations that I've had with John. I thought he was smaller, wanting to go on that text messaging and so forth. And I asked him why, what does he always refer to that situation?

It almost seems like he's making a statement that we have a problem here. He referred to five of his sentences, he even translated it for me. Regarding the age of governance of the household of God, and I refer to a very difficult time in Finland,

It's been a 70s time, a very, very difficult time, and I think that statement, as far as what I've been able to gather, was written in the context of that time that boards could go too far and

And so forth. So I ask for clarification on that through the brothers in Finland, and my work came back, that boards do indeed have a spiritual responsibility to inspire the different things

Entirely different things before it becomes a lord or a bunch of lords over the flock. So I thought and I think that kind of reoccurring statement that comes up when John is at meetings, it was at Rockford, too, about the

I don't know if it was the same heresy, but a heresy back in the 30s, or that's what I recall, that they did not trust in the power of grace, or that grace could teach, or something to that effect, so they instituted instructions and so on and so forth. So to me, my perspective is that it's kind of like a common theme,

It's either a warning not to go there or it's to believe that we are there. And therefore, John has just said that he doesn't believe it. But it kind of raises this flag that

Some believe there's something wrong in North American Christianity.

And I know, I could say that today, even some of the people that are here today believe that from that time of the 70s that there was a turn, a turn in American Christianity or a change to something negative, let's just put it that way, something bad took place at those times.

And I have related in many meetings of Minnesota that I experienced those times too.

But not all meetings of that era were bad. There may have been some here that went too far, and some in the UP that went too far. But also there was good meetings. I share this freely with those that I talk with that are, I would say, of a different mind, that it's unfair to

Characterized those times as all bogged or trapped or something like that. They probably have other thoughts, but the one thought that was

To me, I wish we had talked about it more. I was invited to a meeting, Brian Johnson by himself and several others, including John. The topic of television came up and he made a statement that television decision made back in the day was obsolete.

And it's kind of referred to, maybe it's related to what he said about the contents and so forth, videos. I personally don't think it's obsolete. I always think it, I've always thought it was about content.

But if I worry why we would go there to kind of undercut that congregational decision,

Because it's brought much good to the believers, so I'm wondering kind of where people are coming from. I guess the other thought, as I've taken more time than I wanted here, but I've talked to many people that kind of would probably say they believe like John.

I don't think they all do believe like John, but for some reason they gather around him and I think he's to some degree become kind of the face.

If I want to call it [dissent or unrest]. Some of the people that place themselves with him have a, when it comes to confession, they have a

Feeling like one of them said with this topic of once in faith or in faith, out of faith, in faith, out of faith. John expressed that at the Rockford meeting. And I didn't talk to John. I never had a chance to talk to a different brother. I said, why did he say that? I don't know anybody that's teaching that we're in and out of faith.

When we fall into sin, and the individual says, well, it's implied, it's implied that I'm the same with confession, I keep teaching. I guess I got the mic. I want to say,

When I was a college student in [the] U.P. just before the break of the heresy, we didn't have teaching as opposed. The endeavor of faith, keeping faith in a good conscience, the beauty of God's kingdom, and things went way to the left for some people and somewhere it went to the right.

I rejoice in this time that we live, that we hear about God's Kingdom and that it's a unique place, a special place. It's a dear place to me by all rights. My family all went. I should have gone too, but God, by His grace, spared me.

I'm thankful for that teaching. I didn't grow up with a strong teaching of putting away sin and sin attached to sin. I'm sure I'm thankful and happy that that is a teaching of faith.

And even, I could see it's emphasized more than that time, and I think it's because we live in such a dark time. We need to hear about the righteousness of faith, but righteousness of life, too, because that's the way we are. We're very corrupt, so I don't...

I don't think that we are living in a dry time, a self-righteous time, or a law-minded time, although individuals can go that way. I guess that's quite it. Can I get one comment? One comment. [John has] a comment.

And then after that we got Diana, [Sturos], and Hannah.

So I am not or have never undone the so-called television decision. I'm just illustrating a point that now today with our cell phones and our computers we have the television right at our fingertips.

And it's even much more and much worse than television ever was. So what I'm saying is in this respect we need to be watchful and careful because television and more than a television is in our homes and in our hands. And this is something that I didn't come up with. I have heard it multiple times in America and in Finland.

Diana or Diana?

Well, this is a comment. This is a comment, [in reply to] Todd's comment. So, after hearing Todd's comment, it's very unsettling to someone to say that there's two distinct groups. When you say that, when you say that, that means in some ways to me that

[You are] in the right group and the other people are in the wrong group. And so what does that mean? And these vague things that this other group has a different understanding, but then I don't know what they are, and so I don't know what group I'm in, but I do know if someone tells me there's two groups, or you have to be careful when you say that,

And then I've been with, when I tell people, have told people you're the wrong spirit, we only have two spirits, darkness and light, and so essentially, you're telling the other person you're an unbeliever. And I have warned some of my friends to not say that, that if you have this understanding to discuss them. So to have someone say distinctly that there are two groups, and then not say,

How there are two groups that are vague on misunderstandings or other beliefs differently, but then not really [talk] doctrine. What does this mean? I just get really unsettled when I hear someone say that there's two groups. We don't want to hear it. We are all one kingdom. I get very sad when I hear that [kind of talk].

And so I just want to know, like, what, we're all one, you know, and what are these wrongs and misunderstandings and all the accusations of someone being the wrong spirit or, like I said, we only have two spirits. So I just get very unsettled. So I just want to hear more what that means. What are vague, vague things or vague misunderstandings? I just want to know what that means.

Sturos, I forgot your first name. This is Matt Sturos. We're a little bit unsettled. What's going on? Just be closer to the mic, please. First of all, can I hear a gospel?

It just seems like this meeting is not what was, I guess, intended when this discussion was started. It seems like this has been a marshalling against a particular person.

The congregation is being brought these things and it's not the congregation that's discussing this. I don't know if I'm misinterpreting that. I don't know. I heard that comment that Janelle has made about

Only 25% of the congregation understands John's sermons, and I'm not sure where that came from. It was never polled as to whether or not I'm part of that 25% because I have always felt that I've been fed by John's sermons. I don't know that John or Keith are the spiritual leader of this congregation.

I just find it disturbing that this seems like it's an attack and it's not coming from the congregation. One of the things that keeps coming up and I don't know right now, there's a lot of history here that keeps being rehashed and it's important that if there's deep wounds that need to be healed, that they be healed.

I don't know what this continual forgiveness is. I wasn't there at Rockford. If this is a point of contention, phrasing, perhaps that's something that should be addressed by those that think it means one thing or those that think it means another so that people can understand rather than just referring to this.

Topics as if everybody knows what it is and what we're talking about, because I don't. I'm not sure. And I think it's important that we remember what the topic of this is, is that we remember everybody with love.

There's been times where I felt like I was a wounded man on the side of the road. People walk by and they talk about it on the other side. Let's make sure that you're the Samaritan that's coming to help. Don't be talking around the outside. There's something that needs to be addressed. Hannah?

It's very disturbing to me to think that someone has put individuals into groups.

I don't feel as though I'm part of any group. I don't feel like I follow any one man. I would want to follow God's word and Jesus' teaching. I would like to address one issue that obviously has been brought up.

We had experiences with the board and at the time the deal the issue was on forgiveness and today Russell summed it up with Jim Frantti's words saying that we should always want to forgive. At the time the board meeting that was

Not an acceptable answer. That was the answer that I understand from... I wasn't at the meeting, but my husband was, and we visited about a lot.

He brought many Bible portions and different Luther writings and that sort of thing where he quoted from and that stated that we should have that desire in our heart to always forgive and leave it there. We don't always need to understand when it might be a good time or when it might not be a good time because we don't know. God knows.

And we can't see it to an individual's heart. Now, if what his quotations and that sort of thing were not understood, I would have to say at that time I did visit with quite a few of the board members and those that were involved.

There are a certain amount of personality types of people that, there's different personalities out there and we need to be patient with each individual. Not everyone can get their thoughts together in

A quick moment. Some are very methodical, some are very research-oriented, and there's others of us who throw it out there and then, well, if I'm wrong, well, correct me please. There's many, many different types of people, and I think that was a little bit...

A little bit disturbing part, I guess, for me. From our experience, it began many years before that topic when my husband was first put on board in one of the spiritual meetings he went to. He was, you know, a new board member, so he was just witness. He didn't, I don't believe he really said much. I don't really know. I wasn't there, but he,

Came home from that board meeting and he was afflicted with anxiety such that he did go into the hospital. Those meetings, if they have love, they shouldn't cause this type of reaction in an individual. And, you know, we don't know what all

I think that was on the plate at the time, so obviously there's more than that, but going after one individual in a public setting, I think is...

Very inappropriate. The Church Law of Christ says to go to an individual and speak to them. If you have a concern, you go to that individual.

And from our experience, I was in one of my discussions with a member, I was told that, well, if it was addressed publicly, then we can address it to them publicly. To me, that's not wrong. I would like to know individually if I have offended and

And God's Spirit will lead if there's a confession needed to be made. Anyway, I also feel very sorry.

Oh, I don't have any names right now. Oh, yeah. The reason why I don't have your name is to figure out what your name is. Your name is asterisk in my list.

Somebody bumped the power button, so if that happens to you, that's what it is, so you just gotta bump it again. So there's this quote in the Pilateus that talks about... It talks about faith and reason are against each other, is faith not attained by

Reasoning, this is also God's word for since in the wisdom of God the world is not held God through wisdom. To please God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. That last part was 1 Corinthians. I was at that Rockford discussion. I believe it started at 2 p.m. I had a break for supper and then I continued but I left at that point.

And so they had a presentation by Walt Lampi, and then there was a break, and there was a bit of bickering going on between this group of women in the back, and they said, let's get out of here, and they left. So it seemed like there was some division there. I was kind of taken off guard by it always. I probably would have tried to see what they were talking about, maybe joined in.

So after that discussion, I did talk with John or John Lehtola here. He was one of the first people to speak. One of the ones that spoke before him was his brother. And somebody asked if they were maybe making a rebuttal to the presentation. And I asked John afterwards about that and he said he indeed was making a rebuttal to part of the presentation.

And that he had been to that presentation three times. And then he was, and then we talked about what he had spoke about, the continual forgiveness part for this, and at least in my, I just seem to cause confusion at that discussion.

And he said there's multiple parts on the LLC website and the Treasure Hidden in a Field book that talked about that. And I asked if there's that specific phrase. He said it was, but I wasn't able to find anything on that. On that, he quoted a specific page in the treasure book. So I don't know if he meant that.

I asked about the specific phrase, and he said, yeah, yeah, so I don't know if you quite heard what I was asking or not. And so I expressed some of my concerns, because at that discussion I did kind of feel a little bit uneasy about what he had said.

He had mentioned maybe not using that term again. It sounded like maybe it caused some other uneasiness because it sounded like the Rockford board requested a meeting with the MLLC board at some point after that over some comments that were made there. But one other thing that did cause me some alarm is when John was talking about that continuous forgiveness part, he said he would take that to his grave.

And that just caused me a little bit of alarm because it seemed like he was talking too boldly. And then, then we also talked a little bit about unity and that was kind of, then there were conversations and then a couple other people came up and our conversation just kind of petered out like the week after here in Minneapolis.

So, yeah, I just had some concern about the boldness of the statement. I don't know if there's... I don't know how, I don't want to characterize it, but I don't know if there's some awkwardness on, you know, sometimes people can be awkward in a conversation, you know, and try to...

I'm not trying to be light on this, but I did feel some uneasiness. I'm also one that can be awkward in a conversation too, so I'm not meaning anything bad.

Maybe we should have this continual forgiveness, you know, explained.

I don't know. I'm asking somebody else to do it.

Well, let's see. I may have had a couple other thoughts. I was kind of interested to hear John mention that, you know, he's been translating a lot of articles that he's mentioned from back in the 20s, from this year and in the past, and so on. And I've been one of the recipients of those articles, and I've really enjoyed them.

And appreciated them, and I don't feel that they're damaging in any way. He sends them to me, for example, as he mentions to others as well. And he doesn't comment on them, he just sends them as they are. With respect to continual forgiveness, in my mind, I think of it in a very simple way.

One of the quotes that John has referred to, and I've read it as well, how he mentions one of the speakers back in, maybe it was the 70s, I can't remember now anyway, I won't be able to quote it verbatim, but in his sermon at Summer Service of Suvis in Finland, he mentioned in this way that

Do you know what, do you understand what grace is? He said, it is that we live in forgiveness at every moment when we are believers. So that's how, I guess that's how I think of continual forgiveness as God's abundant grace. As believers, we live in His grace at every moment.

I know this statement, John's statement about in and out of faith, I know it concerns some people. To me, as I heard it, I thought it was more of a clarification. It's been interesting to me, I've kind of thought about how discussions have gone more recently, how one person will say something, maybe even quote a portion of the Bible,

One person will take it one way, and another person will take it completely the opposite. So, in some sense, it seems like to me that there's a lot of emotion built up now, and we have a tendency to read into things based on how we think of the individual that we meet. Are we going to say anything?

Thank you Joe. Then we have one more comment maybe before our lunch which is at one o'clock or so.

I have a couple actually somewhat unrelated comments. Please state your name. Oh, Patrick. One thing about continual forgiveness is it's been a talking point, and I've heard it explained by John, and I've heard it explained by others, and I felt like there was really no discrepancy between that. It was very...

Clearly stated each way. But my broader point about that is we as believers know in the Bible that Jesus did many miracles. And one of them was when he fed the masses with a few loaves of bread and a few fish.

If we wanted to have a discussion on how we technically accomplished that, it wouldn't take much time before we disagreed on how that was done from a technical standpoint. But we accepted it as a miracle. For some reason, continual forgiveness, which is also a miracle that we can be both sinners and saved if we do all sin,

Cannot be accepted with that same simplistic approach of, well, it was just done. Why do we have to peel back the layers of the onion and try to understand every nuanced piece of it if there is

But there are those who feel that they have license to sin, which personally I've never heard anyone say that. Every person that I spoke to, and I've been told that oh so and so believes in continual forgiveness, and in some cases they're either friends or relatives and have not had to speak with them about it, and upon speaking with them about it, I've found that it's merely

It's a very difficult subject to clearly articulate. And how you interpret one or two words in that discussion can shift the entire meaning of the discussion. So we should always take care to put the best construction on all that we do and all that we say and try to understand each other's words in a way that is agreeable to our faith. That is not to say that

We can accept everything everyone says all the time, but these are very sophisticated, nuanced portions of faith, and I believe personally that we're really treading on the edge of human understanding.

We can't truly understand all of our faith. We're incapable of it. So, to have a conversational discussion on such a sophisticated topic, eventually we're going to find areas that we either disagree or one person's understanding ends where another's doesn't. That does not mean that we're not all believing.

So that was what I had to say about that part. The other thing is, it was my understanding of this discussion was what the topic of it was today has been completely different as to what has happened. And I'm not really sure when that shifted from what was spoken of at our board meeting to what we're having today. Maybe someone can offer clarification there.

Thank you. We are going to have lunch soon. Maybe I'll take a quick speaking turn myself. I'm proceeding to be heard to you, John and Janelle, your personal psalm of your life.

The congregation of God is a holy congregation. Its holiness is its head, which is Christ Jesus. All of us, we are sinners. In our duties, no matter what we do, it's true. We fail and we sometimes do wrongly.

May God help us all as we heard about Peter's example that he had to be reminded then that how much have we been forgiven. So I think it's a very difficult situation here.

And I think Matt mentioned about this discussion, having turned into a discussion whether John should continue serving or not. I didn't come here with any thought other than present and then discuss and then see where the spirit guides. You heard Russell's

Comments from the ministers' camp and I think those were very clear in that regard what was felt there. In life and in life of faith, our goal is to make it to heaven. And our goal is to be among other believers in such a way that we would not make it more difficult for them to make it heaven.

So in serving God's congregation, what does it mean? The congregation in the end will decide that is it better to just continue believing and not serve or continue believing or serve. And in God's books are the names of all those who believe. However, it also is so

That personal faith, it is held in the fellowship of God's congregation. And that, dear brothers and sisters, sometimes gets very difficult. So we have another hour, maybe we will come back for 1.30 or so. Let's continue to discuss and I don't...

I don't know what the discussion will be. There can be some kind of a conclusion to this meeting or there might not. I think in this we are asking and continue to ask for the guidance of God's Holy Spirit so that we poor and weak one in ourselves nevertheless could hear what the voice speaks of the congregation. Let us

Join first for our meal prayer. Our dear Heavenly Father,

Thank you for everything that you give us and we thank you for the meal that has been prepared to us. Allow us to enjoy it and visit with our brothers and sisters. And then as we come to discuss more these matters, we ask and continue to ask the guidance of your Holy Spirit for this assembly. In Jesus' name, Amen.

There's a Mother's Day basket drawing happening today. Enter to win a beautiful basket full of spring decor, cards, items, books, a bird feeder, and more. This is a perfect gift to give to your mother in life. Tickets are $3 each and can be purchased with a card or cash. See Nell's ornament to purchase an entry into the drawing. Today is the only day to buy tickets. Winner will be announced during the closing announcements of today's service. Thank you.

[Song] 434.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

There would be care so that I would not fall, that I do not need to serve in any capacity in God's kingdom, but that I would simply be able to make it to the destination. I want to go to the shore of heaven, and I know you, dear brother and sister, here today also. I don't want to abandon each other, but I want to go together.

We've had trouble here in Minneapolis. We've been away for five years, but I would say that in North American Zion, there are questions that come up. There was concern that ministers camp over this continual forgiveness and how some have taught. There were some who wanted to put their own teaching away. I can't explain it any better than it's been explained here too late, but I would say this.

I also believe my faith since I was a kid. Since I was a little kid. Then we have Adam and then Calvin. Then Ron.

Okay. Can you hear me now? Okay.

I thought, well, we need to interpret that in a couple different ways. You know, why would something like that bring about such heightened concern? If you know the person and you know what they think, you just accept it for what it is. For me, I was hurt before, but it is what we're going to partake in.

There is no doubt that John understands the idea of the narrative of sin, and I don't think by any means it means that once you've sinned, you are always forgiven.

I don't see any reason to be concerned about that term when you understand that somebody meant it in the correct way. We hear a lot of generalities around here.

And we're not all, you know, explicit in everything we talked about because it's probably not until midnight tonight or long. But if Keith doesn't mind, I would like to ask him to confirm what is John's understanding of the watchman on the wall, which he said he differed in understanding from him. Because I don't know what that would be, but maybe I'll let him.

And also, if some of these concerns come up by reason of, whatever reason, suspicious minds, or wondering where they're coming from. Luther talks, I've read a lot of Luther's books after this, but he didn't know that. He talks about

The eye of suspicion, he calls it, inherits its sin and all its glory. Well, sometimes maybe there's a reason for suspicious attitudes, but react on it and talk and chitter-chatter and make a lot of dust about it all. Sometimes it's best just to kind of be reserved until you, you know, or even know what's better than you.

Like initially, so far I haven't said, all I've been doing is listening because this whole matter that there's probably some kind of trouble going on, especially the talk of two spirits and all that, you know, I think that's kind of drastic to talk along those lines when we hold the believers one to another as brothers.

You know, are you saying you're a heretic? That's what two spirits means. This type of thing. So that's the kind of course that's pretty abrasive. And it's just, it's just hard for me to hear that. Because it's like preemptive strike on somebody. I don't know. But in the beginning, in the introduction,

I spoke much of love and the care of the Heavenly Father to guide our conversation here tonight, for today. And this is exactly what we need and this is what unity is all about. And so it kind of reminds me of, maybe it's not pertinent to this, but a story I read one time in an old article

Christian paper about this old Finland minister that came to this country and was concerned and jibber-jabber here and there. Brothers, one thing or another against another one. And they tried to gain the confidence of this minister so that they kind of maybe sign up with their side of the issue. And he pretended to be deaf and in the midst of others they didn't want to talk to about it.

And all he did, and when he spoke, he spoke of the matter of taking care of your own house. He spoke of the love of God that he desires of you to be returned. About what's in one's own heart. And then pretty soon, people found themselves for what they were, and then this matter of all these issues disappeared.

All these works and terms, they disappeared when one recognized the value and rejoicing of their own soul's salvation and their worries were quenched about the others that they had. It's a long story in that case, you have to say. So my hope is that somehow, somehow we don't over...

We come overbearing on our concerns about question marks and the unknown and this and that. It also reminded me of, not that I equate what's going on now to past heresies, but I remember, and I don't mean to insult relatives or anybody here, but Wisco was a topic of concern at that time and all said and done, well, guess what?

All the people at Palo Alto was a big issue. And as far as following one or the other, I don't follow anybody. But if somebody's, you know, I don't think, I'm not gonna start holding my nose up against somebody because I don't know, you know, how they think or this or that or what's on their mind. I'll accept them in love, as a believer, until they themselves deny their own faith.

They separate themselves or they refuse to be in tune with the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you, Calvin. Could I still hear the Gospel from my own cell? Oh, you can. All your sins are forgiven in Jesus' name. Amen.

It seems sitting here that I can't help but feel very, very troubled myself. And I have to wonder why. And in some ways, in finding stuff out more recently,

I just wanted to help but say I do mind if I say I was concerned about some of these things and hearing the fact that if we show up, like I have been at the board meetings, I wanted to see for myself what happens there, how do things go down, what's discussed, that type of thing. I haven't attended to be a troublemaker and I don't know why I feel

Like that's the way that I might be viewed. I don't know that there's anything wrong with doing something for yourself. And if there is something that is a myth,

Look at that.

What John and Janelle shared this morning, I can't help but think, do we not care as a congregation if someone is treated like that? I don't believe we know all the details. I think that if there was

And especially shake our finger at our brother. I think that's wrong. And in listening, it just feels like there is, like Matt mentioned, there is an attack against John. And I ask all of you, does that feel right to you, to attack another fellow believer?

Somewhere in the Bible it says to love one another, and especially those in the household of God. And I guess, if there has been, I know that the Gospel has generally been spoken, which is good. However, if there are issues or specific cases where

There were offenses towards John. I ask you, brothers, and you personally, John, to ask for those offenses to be taken care of. I'm just trying to understand where does this type of stuff come from, and how come we can't put this to rest? Why doesn't it go away?

I would encourage board members, even at the meeting, to speak if there is something that you feel that would be correct in what I was saying. I think it's very important for the congregation to know

Because it's very clear that we haven't known, and it's become a very, very big issue. Thank you, Anne. We have Ron, and then this is Scott. And then, yeah, Lee's wife. Sorry.

Did you know who that is? I do. Did I do? No, I used to be there. Oh, I thought maybe it was like Peg McCown or something. I guess my thoughts go back a long, long way. I'm not there anymore. Is that when you were born? No, that's probably when the firm started.

Just after high school in Cokato, after my graduation, I came down to Minneapolis at the same time. And the Minneapolis congregation is very, very precious to me. And to Melville. Four years ago, we moved to Buffalo.

I'm just assuming it was probably her. We joined the Monticello congregation. We were members here. You guys flew to Michigan or what? No. And we raised dollars. We went down to Florida. We flew.

1973. I remember those days before. Not knowing much of what was going on other than

Having grown up as a teenager in the 50s and 60s, and observing the things that went on in Cokato and Minneapolis amongst the young people, and then also observing the things that went on in Michigan around the young people, and noticed a difference.

And that time and the differences actually between Minnesota and Michigan. That those who were in Michigan were living in much more a life of, of, let's say leniency and love of the world than those of us who were in Minnesota.

That is not to say that we are not quite those same sins that were common. But I didn't really know much about the spiritual life in God's kingdom up until

Eventually resulted in that heresy. But after that heresy, God in His grace taught us many, many things in those years of the dangers of sin

The dangers of the worldly lifestyles, the dangers of worldly listening, worldly music, the dangers of television. And those of us who are spared from that heresy are so grateful

For his great mercy towards us, the young and the old alike. I remember in those years there was joy and there was happiness and there was union and there was much attending services, going to services as often as we could, meeting in homes and singing songs of Zion

And some may not say that there was peace because of some of the issues around the 80s that happened in some of the caretaker meetings. But generally, there was peace for 40 years. But now in recent years, there has been turmoil.

Some people have said, even at this meeting, that they don't understand why we talk about two groups. But in reality, there are two groups. There are those who are forming on one side and they seem to be going

With a new doctrine, a doctrine that from my youth to now I had never heard of. We've been heard today

And to say that the decisions that were made in God's kingdom in the late 50s or early 60s about television would not be a good thing to bring to your home, I think are still a good admonition. That why would we bring that kind

Only we, Pilgrims.

And there eventually became a heresy. And those who are on the side and left to God's people had a different view of God than those who are mentioned in the Bible. And so when we talk about differences of doctrine, it is important, even if they're small issues or might seem like small issues,

To our human mind, or our human way of thinking, yet they are different from John. And I hope in this presentation of the smoke that makes it difficult to see. And we also heard at the speaker's camp of that smoke that is spread by the enemy of

The Bible still leaves us with ears even if our sight is not so clear. It leaves us with ears.

A calling with Christ to gather together followers for the Lord Jesus.

Well, let's thank you and then quickly ending it up. Very quick.

There have been some comments by John in our annual meeting and today, but we're still concerned. We deal with that, but we're seeing it on a lot of guns. It's all good.

I just want to say that I do want to share with you all this. I don't believe it's coming from John, and this is only from my experiences here.

You can push it, but you can't climb on it. When I was talking about the local congregation, I was saying that it's only the local congregation. That's where the minister is installed. That is where they're taken care of, first and foremost. And if need be, that is where the minister is really on duty.

There was a question about some person from Finland serving in this continent, in Minneapolis, in the Midwest, and so there was discussion, should we use them or not. I contacted the SRK office. They said, we don't say yes or no. You contact this local congregation. Here's the chairman's email.

I am not above every church by no means. I am a sinner.

So listening to a sermon yesterday, I transcribed it and translated it into English. If you bear with me, even though we're going overtime, I think it's pertinent to the time we're living in, pertinent fall times. [Kept] by Walter [Torola]. He was here fall of 2016, in his first service term in Helsinki. When he returned, he kept these words at the end of that sermon he gave to you from USA and Canada.

Dear children of God, we have such a wonderful portion here on earth. We are not hopeless, even though there would be difficulties of many sorts. We have individual sorrows, sorrows in life. There are sorrows and difficulties in our families. Sometimes we have collective sorrows. There may be sorrows within Christianity. It is good to remember that even in the midst of these difficulties,

Remember, we don't have an everlasting city here on earth, but we seek for one to come. So, then he goes on, he says, conflicts. Even for those believers who are having conflicts, it would be good to pause and to ponder. Why am I believing? Ponder simply, brothers and sisters, and look one another in the eye and ask, is it possible to come together, the two of us,

Are we just going to cling to the demanding rod or the rod of demand with which we demand more of others than we do of ourselves? Oh, if there would be a third person to take you or I by the hand and let us go and see what it is like at the throne of grace. What do you see there? When you go to the throne of grace,

From our Jesus, there is no demanding rod there. Christ has broken that demanding rod. We can look even further. We notice that the demanding rod has been broken into pieces. There are no demands at the throne of grace. I would think that even the hardest heart will melt there at the throne of grace. There surely is no demand that you did this or that to me. Just think.

If children are fighting at the throne of grace and under the gaze of Jesus, what does Jesus do? He has a very sorrowful gaze and a sorrowful mind, and he says, children, do you not realize how much I have done on your behalf in order to save you from sin and death and the power of the enemy? I have redeemed you from all sin and the power of the enemy, not with gold or silver, but with my holy and precious blood.

My innocent suffering and death. Look at my hands. Look at my side. Blood has flowed from these wounds on your behalf. The way is open to heaven. Look how open the way is. Do you still want to fight or argue? Sorry, so long.

Someone give me a phone call. You still want to fight and argue. I would think that even the hardest heart will soften and the gaze will turn to the ground and say, forgive me. I have sinned so much against you. I am sure that there is not a heart that is so hard that from his or her lips could not be heard.

You can believe your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. And can you forgive me as well? I would think that when you leave from the throne of grace, you would go hand in hand rejoicing and singing a song of praise. When my burden of sin is forgiven and my debt has been paid for me. And see, I am blackened by sin and corruption, yet my bridegroom is troth to me. Oh, I thank thee, dear Jesus, I thank thee. I thank thee eternally.

Can I leave my sins forgiven? Your sins forgiven in Jesus' name. Dear brothers and sisters, we have come to the conclusion of this discussion. We pray for the wisdom of God's Spirit and we can live with what God's Spirit has given unto us. In this journey of faith, it is not important

In which way we serve or don't serve, what is important that we then continue to have that faith that can save us and will save us. And I suppose it's a mystery of faith.

It doesn't need to be secret, my brothers and sisters. This is what God wants, that you, in your heart, believe that all your sins are forgiven. We pray to God that these discussions obviously will come to a clear end or something that

That people who say and may not say that this is how it is. It does seem like the congregation has spoken here and it seems that there would probably be further discussions. I'm just saying that in God's congregation we always fear that there are two different

There's only one seedfold of the Good Shepherd, and we can look into our hearts and ask, what is it? What is it that would take me away from that seedfold of the Good Shepherd? And to the way all those saints and princes that come along the way, and they pray,

That God and His time goes all the way. And that's where we are left. In our own places, keep it working. And in our own places, pray. And in our own places, continue the discussion so that God's Spirit will lead and guide us. And I think that's...

I would like to thank this congregation who in all may be and it continues to be so that God's will happen. I am even during this time feeling in many ways tempted and frightened.

I desire you to believe together with you. Yeah, you can believe all your sins forgiven. In Jesus' name, amen. In Jesus' name, amen. In Jesus' name, amen. In Jesus' name, amen. In Jesus' name, amen.

All things are for you, and [unclear]. It will carry us, and it will bring us to the destinies. Let us join in closing prayer.

Dear Heavenly Father, you who know all and know how to lead and guide us, we submit ourselves and your congregation into your care and we ask that you continue to bless us and, dear Father, help us all so that it wouldn't be so difficult, so that we could

Whatever way you lead, that it could be in such a way that the way of faith can be such a way where even the fool doesn't err. Thank you for the power of the Gospel, because as we know, we are flesh and blood, and we are flesh and soul. Thank you for your congregation here on earth. Our Mother, who continues to take care of

Every one of us. Bless every one of us in such a way that we could remain in a humble place of a child of God, listening to what the Spirit speaks in your congregation. Father, we thank you for the victory that our sister Margaret has, and may she be our example for years

We continue to travel together, children of God, in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, allowing her memory to be such a comfort to us that even a poor child of God can one day make it to heaven. Give us love when we join our voices together.

Say the benediction. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.