Minnesota-wide Boards' and Ministers' Meeting, Monticello, June 14, 2018

We're still pinching ourselves. It's still a lot of work.

So welcome all to this discussion here in Monticello.

We'll open by singing Psalm 208. Following Jim, the General will lead us in prayer, and then Kurt Simonson will present on the Office of the Holy Spirit. Welcome.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

First I want to welcome each one of you to Monticello Congregation Church here. Many of you were able to be here for our festive dedication service and there we experienced with many of you the joy in having a building of our own.

Where the believers, whatever congregation or from whatever part of the world they come, can come to hear God's Word. We're thankful that we have a place where we can invite you to come. We know this isn't our meeting, but we want to be good hosts. So if there's anything you're lacking, tell Ted Kesty or Bruce Harrell.

Let us begin this evening in open prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, this evening when we have gathered together, we turn to you with prayerful minds and hearts.

Dear Father, some of us, as you know, have come feeling our own portion. Feeling our earthly portion, which becomes afraid, becomes troubled, becomes doubt-filled. And dear Father, at the beginning of this meeting,

Ask that you would allow each one of us who lives by faith, who owns that grace gift that you have offered to all people, to each one of us who is able to own that gift by faith. Dear Father, comfort us.

Allow us to hear and to know your presence through the Spirit. That Spirit which your Son promised so many years ago. That Spirit that comforts. That Spirit that calls. That Spirit that enlightens and teaches. Dear Father, we ask that each one of us would be able to hear

You, through your spirit. Dear Father, we ask that you would be present here with us, that you would give freedom to speak that which is upon the minds and hearts of your children. To us who have been called to serve in our congregations, dear Father,

You know of what we are, and you also have distributed your gifts throughout your children, and you have given those gifts, not all the gifts to one, but a small gift to each one. Dear Father, give us freedom to speak of those things that bring joy,

Of those things that bring comfort, of those things that trouble us in this day that we live. Dear Father, we know in part how sinful we are. We know in part of that gift that we have received, and we understand in part your goodness for us.

And we ask, dear Father, allow us to see the many blessings that you have given to your children in this day and in this time. And give unto us and restore unto us a time again where we are able to walk together with one common understanding.

That we would not be troubled, that we would not be worried, that we would not be afraid, and that we would be able to live our life of faith and serve in our congregations with the joy of your child.

We ask your Father for your help and we ask for you to teach us and to comfort us this evening. That freedom would be on each one of our minds and in our hearts. That we would also be able to listen to one another. And we enclose all of our thoughts in that prayer that your Son has taught us.

Let us all join together in saying the Lord's Prayer. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses

As we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

Okay, good evening everyone. I agreed to introduce this topic some time ago and as it has become closer I've been challenged to why I agreed but beginning with this.

Introduction to this meeting here this evening. I want to be obedient. I'm not certain the direction

That I should have taken on this presentation, but I trust that God knows much better than any of us could ever know where we need to go in this discussion this evening. But as we pause here this evening on this topic, the office of the Holy Ghost,

It's a topic that has much more meaning than I could ever comprehend or begin to even have dissected or understand. But nonetheless, I have this presentation and we will go through it as I have prepared it with that hope that God would give you hearts and minds to speak those things that are on your mind

For the edification of his kingdom. My way of picking on topics is always to ask questions of myself. And so, at the beginning I thought maybe that I would just begin with this, that what is the spirit?

These were some of the thoughts that came to my mind. It's not exhaustive by any means, but, and maybe some of these things are more true to the spirit, but nonetheless, the spirit maybe is something that rules or controls. It's an unseen force that has

12,000 times it was something we've done. In a way, it's a correct feeling, or it's a consequence of something we've done. We have a certain troubled, troubled, or troubled spirit, or something that's separate from matter and could be a friend of mine removed. Those are just some of the thoughts that came to my mind, and I'm sure you have as well. So what is the holy spirit?

You can say the Holy Spirit is God. And what is God's Word? There's three parts to it. There's God the Father, the Creator, the Son, the Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit at the same place. All these are contained in God's Word.

God's Word, we can say, is God's will. It's what He wants us to know. And God's Spirit knows there is a distinctive there. And it's not what makes us holy. God's Word doesn't make us holy. God's Spirit makes us holy. Without God's Word, we can have all understanding of scriptures and not be holy.

And so collectively also God's Spirit is what shows us God's will. All of God's children together show us God's will. God's Word created all and became the Passion of Jesus and it is now aligned with the Holy Spirit.

I forgot to mention at the beginning of this evening that we would not do any recording here. This is a meeting where we have come here to visit, ask questions, to be free.

And so, at the beginning, I want to encourage you that we would just not record this. I have come here with my own doubts, and I... It is what it is, but I would rather it not be recorded. And it's not that we have anything that we are trying to hide from anyone. I've never felt here in God's kingdom that there's been things that we have tried to hide and cover.

But we are servants in God's kingdom and we need to be free. And sometimes this worry would take some of our freedom away. So let's, I ask that we would not record this meeting here. So how can a person know or believe

The only way that I can think of being able to know or believe God is through us. We can understand parts of God through His Word, but we cannot know God except through the Spirit. From John, chapter 1, verse 14, it says the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

And we feel this glory as the only begotten of the Father over grace and truth. So as I was visiting with my son who works in the office every day, and I just asked him, we're visiting about the topic, and I said, what is the Holy Spirit? And he said, maybe it would be better than that. I asked him, what is the purpose of the Holy Spirit?

I think we all have some idea of the Holy Spirit. So what is the purpose of the Holy Spirit? And that's not, my thoughts are not exhausted by any means. So God's, the purpose of God's Spirit is to comfort, instruct, forgive, rebuke, and teach the believer. It's to rebuke the world of sin, of righteousness, and judgment.

It's the pre-treatment that's in the forgiveness of sins. So some of the questions that I ask myself is, do we judge? I would say no, but the Spirit judges.

So how does the spirit work? What does it talk? It's you. It's you that we need, that you have, God's Spirit. So we cannot see it, but we can hear it. We cannot touch it, but we can feel it. We cannot sometimes explain it.

I've sometimes heard in the recent times that, and it's true, God's Word is the highest authority in God's people. So is God's Word higher or more important than the Holy Spirit? I would say no. I'd say that they don't compete with one another, but they agree and support each other.

God's Word and Spirit are equal to Christ. The Holy Spirit is only found in God's Kingdom. And there is no other way to be acceptable to God than through His Spirit. From John Chapter 4 it says, The hour is coming, now it is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and Truth, for the Father seeks as such to worship Him. God is a Spirit.

And they had worship and must worship him in spirit and truth. This was from that portion of scripture when Jesus was taken with that woman at 12. And Jesus told Jesus, or this woman told Jesus at that time that the Messiah will teach us or tell us all things. And Jesus told this woman, he said, I am Jesus.

And so then what did Jesus tell his disciples? He says the Spirit will also teach them all things. So it speaks the truth of God. And if it teaches anything other than that, it's not the Spirit.

From Luther's writings in the third article of the Credence, he says about the Holy Spirit, he says, The creation lies in the past, and the redemption has been accomplished also. But the Holy Spirit is at work without intermission until the last day. It is for the unbroken continuation of his ongoing work that he has established his community on earth,

Jouretti speaks all his word and does all his work, for he does not yet finish gathering all his Christian people or dispensing the forgiveness of sin. It seems that's how I believe. I know that's how I believe.

Jesus thought so much about the kingdom of God that he called it his mother. If Jesus gave the kingdom of God that which he's had, we also must trust the kingdom of God, your Holy Spirit, our Holy Spirit. So who controls the Holy Spirit?

It is God that controls it because it's His Spirit. From the second book of Corinthians, first chapter, it says, Now He which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us with God, who hath also sealed us and given us the presence of the Spirit in our hearts. So God has given His Spirit to us as a gift.

And if we only have it as a gift, we cannot keep it or get it by strength, power, or might, by wisdom or understanding. There is no way to acquire God's Spirit except to be given to us by God. Those are the thoughts that come from Zechariah chapter 4 verse 6.

From Psalm 51, verse 10, it says, it's a plea to God. It's from a believer's plea. This is from David's prayer. He says, Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. God is God's spirit that we have.

We cannot keep it on our own power. But God gives us the power to keep it. And that is through many different ways here in this kingdom, which we will get into later on here. But the most common way that we keep God's spirit is by putting sin away, which is the power of the gospel.

So, can it be taken away in itself? How does it leave or is removed? What causes the Holy Spirit to leave? And how does one receive the Holy Spirit? And how do we know that one has the Holy Spirit? So how does one get the Holy Spirit? It's either in a Catholic conception,

For when we are born again, every man is born with God's Spirit. But if we lose that Spirit, we can get it again through new birth, through repentance, through conversion. Being converted through the repentance and the forgiveness of sins, we can receive the Holy Spirit. Except a man be born with water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. I have heard recently that believers do not make repentance. And I don't have great wisdom on this topic.

I feel like my own, my own journey of faith unfolded from here. It doesn't necessarily mean when we fall into sin we fall out of God's kingdom, but it can lead us away from God's kingdom.

And so, being converted from the world to repentance maybe is a different meaning to it than a believer. But nonetheless, repentance is remorse over sin. It's really nothing more than remorse over sin.

So how does one keep the Holy Spirit? We've already touched on this. By faith and trust in God. We keep God's Spirit by faith and trust in God. And so, how does one then lose the Spirit? We've already mentioned this through sin, unforgiving sin.

And so the only way that he could remain in us is through faith and trust in God, the Triune God. By faith we are saved through grace, and not of yourself. It is a gift from God. And again from Psalm 51 verse 7 it says, Purge me from hyssop, and I shall be clean. Wash me, and I shall be white as a snow. So David is also referring here to this, that God would purge him with hyssop.

Or in other words, perching with, that high stop was used as a figurative meaning there in the Old Testament. You know, it was used in the Passover when they used the high stop to take the blood and put it on the door post and the side post of their homes. And it's a picture of forgiveness of sins in our day to day. At least that's how I read it.

And from Psalm 51, it also says the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart, O God, that will not despise. So how does one lose the Holy Spirit?

From James 1, verse 15, then one must have conceived or bring forth sin, and sin, when it is finished, bring forth death. There was, I just recently heard that somebody had been asked at some point in time, why was sin done to death? It's not a new question, but I think it's probably a question that we've all wondered from time to time.

This person that has since gone to glory answered in this way, says, all sin needs to come to death. If we do not care for sin, it needs us to come to death. So we should ask for forgiveness for sin rather than ask what sins we can do and still be saved. Our desire should always be to not sin. That's the desire of a believer, to never sin.

But we know we are flesh and blood, and we have been called that way. And because we are that way, God made a way for us to be removed from that sin. And that's through the name and blood of Jesus, the Son. So what creates the Holy Spirit?

From Ephesians chapter 4, verses 29-30 it says, Let no corrupt communication proceed on your own, but that which is good for the use of edifying, that I may minister grace unto the pierced, and grieve not the holy spirit of God, for our bodies are sealed unto the day of redemption. So, reading this,

So it does breathe the Holy Spirit when we speak of things that do not testify in the Kingdom of God, in our sermons, in our speech, in our talk.

From James, Chapter 1, Verse 28 and 21, it says, Wherefore, my beloved reverend, let every man be swift to gear, slow to speak, slow to rap, for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore, lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive of meekness the ungranted word, which is able to save your soul.

So how shall we be and act before the Holy Spirit of God? So James and Gary spread this, I guess. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear as low to speech, low in wrath. For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore, lay apart all filthiness and superfluity, if not in us now, and receive with meekness the ungrateful burden which is unable to save your souls.

As we all know, our time has been troubling. I have not known specifically how to give an answer to some things, some topics, some questions, some writings. But it has troubled me.

Even though I don't understand why, there are no specific reasons of why. So what does the Holy Spirit do when there are wrong teachings in understanding? Romans chapter 16 verse 17 says in this way,

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark down which constitutions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. It doesn't mean that the believers are simple people. But we believe simply.

And when something is not simple to understand or to grasp, it's concerning to the believer. If it takes much discussion and depth of thought, oftentimes it becomes troubling to the speaker.

From Revelations chapter 2 and 3, there's a couple of phrases that repeat themselves when John wrote to the churches, the seven churches. Even though they didn't have all at all in the same way, Jesus' words unto them all begin to some degree with these words. He says, I know thy works.

God knows everything about us. He knows everything we've done to each other, in secret or in public. There's nothing that is different about us.

The part that I haven't noted here is that as many as I love, I may be able to chase them. Be zealous, therefore, and be kind. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and move sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also have overcame and am set down in my father's throne.

And then the phrase that concludes each one of the writings to the church is to see that happen here. Let them hear what the Spirit says about the church. So he begins with that, I know, I know that, I know that works. And then he goes on to write to them specifically for the matters that were concerning those congregations or

Or whatever it may be, and then he encourages them, or he instructs them, that they would hear, listen, listen to what the Spirit says unto the church. God gives a time for repentance. God gave a time for repentance for those seven churches, for those that have erred. But when one does not hear,

They are both very dangerous neutral consequences. How do we know we have God's Spirit? I've oftentimes honored that after life. But when I've been at the services of God's children,

And it doesn't matter who actually leads that service. It has been until more recently, and it's even rarer today, because of where I live, that we have in our congregations have been of one mind and spirit, and we can thank God for that.

But it has been for that past work that they've sent out. I don't, to be honest, I don't know. It has not come. And so it has left that question in my mind, that do I have God's Spirit? But yeah, I hope it comes that way.

By God, I feel within God's kingdom I have ended the services of God's children, and God has fed me.

Romans, chapter 8, verses 16 and 17. The Spirit itself bear witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, enjoy heirs of Christ. If so be that we suffer with them, that we may be also glorified in heaven. I also have it written here from Romans, chapter 8.

6-9. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of others, neither is it to be tempted. So then, they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Apostle Paul is writing this letter to the believers. Believers are not immune to carnal thoughts and reason. It's something that we all struggle with. And that's why when we come to the services of God's Son, we pray that God would open this word unto us. So that if we have had those carnal thoughts or understandings,

That we could hear the Spirit of God, and be instructed to correct, and we could even ask for forgiveness for those wrong understandings that we have. That is always the intent of God's Spirit, that we would forgive us for those wrong things that we have done.

From 1 John, chapter 4, verse 1 through 6. Be lost, believe not in every spirit, but try the spirits, whether they are of God.

Because many false prophets are held out into the world, hereby you know ye the Spirit of God. Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of that, and this is that spirit of Antichrist, where you have heard that it should come.

And even now already is in the world. Ye are God's little children, and I will overcome them. Because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. They are the world. Therefore speak they are of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God. He that knoweth God heareth us. He that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the Spirit of truth, and the Spirit of error.

So it's only through God's spirit that we can know the spirit of truth and error. It's not something that we can on our own, on our own skill or thought or study. No. But it's through God's spirit that we can know the spirit of truth and error. I'm almost done with the end of my slides here, but this slide here, I was going to take it out and I decided to slowly get in here.

Today I wanted so many times to go back to this presentation and just regroup. My wife and one of your brothers said just be a trust that God would guide this discussion here this evening. But anyways, this picture here is only there for a reference.

As you know, this is just a barn, and it's generally for milking cows. It's not anymore, but it's just to explain the thought that I had. So it has a purpose, and the purpose of a dairy barn is to milk and care for dairy cattle. So in this building, you might find quite a few different things if you were milking, such as hay and water, milking machines, milk tanks, barn clears, and so on.

There are many things in here, and they're all for one purpose. So 1 Corinthians chapter 2, verse 13. It says, For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man but the spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world,

But the Spirit which is of God, that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom he is to teach us, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. So in this writing here, it talks about a few things. Spiritual things.

Part of the spiritual things that you could possibly be referencing. They're freely given to us from God when we believe. Spirit, prayer, fellowship, community, baptism, confession, repentance, singing, and so on. So all these things are given to God's children.

In the previous slide, I showed that picture of that barn. And I thought, I was trying to, in my mind, just to clarify it in my own mind. In God's kingdom, we have all these things. Just as in that barn, there was all things necessary for the purpose of that building. God's kingdom has everything we need.

These things, they're not all the same things. Each one of them has a different reason, a different purpose. They help us in maybe a slightly different way. If you remove them from the kingdom and use them outside of the kingdom, they no longer have the power to stay or keep us in there.

It's like there was another slide that I have here, and I'm not going to show it, but it was actually a power plant out here that produces power. I'm sure these lights in here are turned on, and the microphones and all these things here are from that power plant. But if we unplug it, an alarm works.

If we take these things on the screen there and remove them from God's kingdom, no one gets power. Because there's no longer God's Spirit to give power. God's Spirit is a very important thing to us. It's the most important thing for us.

So it seems, and it seems more recently, that a lot of the discussions have been on doctrine. And it's not bad that we visit about doctrine. And for doctrine, it's important in the kingdom of God.

But it seems that some of my discussions with some, when we used to talk about faith, we used to talk about the way of the journey. How it was for a believer to never hear anything from God. And often times in those discussions we heard proclamations, and also what you can do, what you've done since then. You can always gain strength.

I didn't feel the need to explain deeply, to change slightly. Scott gave us these things, and I don't think he wants us to change the meaning of these things even slightly, but he wants us to embrace all of his gifts, as he has intended for us to have.

Should we spend our time on the real-life points of doctrines, too? Or would it be better to embrace the gifts of faith and freely use them as intended by God, so that we can continue in the trust and protection of God, that he has promised to those that we need? The sin is our enemy. There's nobody here that's our enemy, but sin is our enemy.

And sin has a way of making things confusing and difficult. The Bible says that God is not the author of confusion. I believe that was the last slide.

One other thought that came to mind here to explain the Kingdom of God. From Luke chapter 10, it was that parable of the Great Samaritan. It said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed leaving him half dead.

And I shortened this down a little bit. And my chancellor came down a certain priest that way, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise to Levi, when he was in that place, he came and looked on him and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion on him. And he went to him and bound up his wounds.

I sat him on his own case and brought him to an end and took care of him. And on the morrow he made me part of it. I took out two pence and gave [them] to [the host].

Take care of it. And once we're... I'll spend this morning, when I come again, I will be paid. This is a picture of God's community. The only spirit is that cares for us. Everything is needed. Everything we need for faith is here in God's community.

Jesus wants us to make that happen. When we were there, he referred us to the caretakers who came to the prophet for true forgiveness as preached in the name of the blood of Jesus.

I want to encourage you all this evening, as we open this meeting for discussion, to believe all of your sins, forgive them in Jesus' name.

I'm sure somebody has a mic there. I'll bring it to you.

Request, ask for a speaking turn. I encourage you all to be free. When I was visiting with my wife today, I told my wife that, you know, I just need to be here. I know, I trust, I fear, but I know I'm not here. My flesh says I want to be wrong. It never wants to be wrong. I have found that I have been wrong many times.

And I'm grateful and thankful

Be free. There's many topics that we have discussed from time to time that have brought confusion and concern to the people of God. And I want to encourage you all to be free, and whether you're right or wrong, be free. Let's discuss them then.

Very touching and appropriate. A couple of things that came to my mind during the communication as well as a couple of thoughts I shared that maybe have been on my mind lately. There's been the question of God's word being

The highest authority to really say amen to that sliding hat out there. The way it was positioned as it's equal to the Holy Spirit, that they do not compete, but they confirm and validate one another. That's exactly as I understand it as well. And then this other part,

In Romans, you know, it came up here in this presentation, but it's also been on my mind, too, that it says to mark those that cause division among you. And I thought, you know, what does that mean, to mark someone that way? And I guess I've kind of left it at, in this way, that it seems like those

That you've cultivated and kind of marked themselves by their speeches and their truths. And I don't know if that's the right understanding on that, but I don't necessarily know what it means. Because on one hand, we're always cautioned, particularly on board meetings, we want to be really cautious about saying names specifically.

And so I, but yeah, this very clearly says from our goals that God's division of money, so I don't have a good understanding on that. If others have, I thought that it would be good to hear.

And your arm picture reminded me of a thought that I had these last months, I would say, where it seems that there's these multiple paths being discussed, whether it's different understandings or different spirits, whatever that may be.

You know, so I've got this picture in my mind of these cows or sheep out in the pasture, and when they hear the call to come for feed, particularly cows, I'm thinking of, they all go towards the barn, and they all have these paths that they go on, or these multiple paths that they take, but when they get to that barn door, it's very narrow. They can only go through one at a time.

And so I think in these times that we're living in, with all these questions and discussions going on in this doctrinal

There's a lot of dust that gets kicked out and it follows the way and it makes it difficult to see the path. And so we really rely on the spirit that dwells within God's kingdom here to assure us that even though we can't clearly see where it's going,

Thank you for that. I guess one thing that I brought here that has been on my mind

It's come up in multiple congregation discussions, and I really try to bring this up right now because I don't want this to be the topic. That's the way it goes. That's how it goes. But there are these questions that continue to come up on that caretaking in the 70s and 80s.

And I heard in a recent sermon this text that really hit home for me from Hebrews 12. It says, Follow peace with all men and holiness, with all which no man shall see the Lord, looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness spring up and trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

And when I hear continual questions on those times from so long ago, I can't help but wonder if there is a room of bitterness there that is still dwelling. And I guess I fear for those that are still troubled by that and would want to encourage

And so I...

You know, tonight, I want to stand here and listen to you. To me, that's the true calling of a good shepherd. It's comforting. It's reassuring. It gives such confidence that we're on the right path. So, dear brother,

Kurt got help in that presentation. I know the angst that a person goes through in trying to put some thoughts together. And God directed those words and thoughts. And my spirit rejoices that I can be a part of this precious kingdom. One of those words of the Apostle Paul, the young Timothy,

We told them, but foolish and unlearned questions void, knowing that they be generous strikes, and the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men who have to teach and be patient.

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves, mere adventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil who are taken captive by him and his will.

We've heard in the last two or three years that there have been those questions that have raised strife and they've raised questions. They've caused worry and doubt, they've caused sickness in God's Kingdom. And it's [grief]. Those questions [grieve] the Spirit. And the Spirit is troubled. The Spirit is a mirror.

Words like them here. When we hear the Spirit spoken, our heart and our spirit answers and says, hey, it's not something that you can, like you in the presentation said, clearly mark or identify or illustrate as something physical or bodily or matter, but it's a spirit that

So I think that I feel that this is where now we are. And may God help us through these times of difficulty. May God, through his Holy Spirit, be able to reveal unto those who are

Struggling and wavering to the point that it feels that I personally have been sold. I feel the doubts and worries that the world is in. I fear for my own faith life. I fear for my children's. I fear for my grandchildren's. I fear for my

Preserved all. And the only way, I think, that they who are struggling can be preserved is through repentance. Through coming to the knowledge of their sin or even without the knowledge of sin or the knowledge of where they are, the humility to

It's not the understanding and wisdom of man that can reveal these things, but only God's wisdom. There are many, many prayers on behalf of those who today are struggling, those whose families have been

Divided in difficulty there, so maybe the spirit that grows among us can work in that way to reveal the contents of those matters that are troubling and that often come with repentance and follow again after the Lord of life and doctrine and stuff.

Coming right up with any worries and doubts of my own, I'll just run through them and ask them out. Let's hear the doubts.

I agree with Kurt's presentation. I believe he is being guided by the Holy Spirit to move out to give this presentation for us to see in the way the Spirit is here tonight guiding us. And I would encourage, if there's anybody here who doesn't agree with the presentation,

We could be free to express why, so we can discuss it here. This is a forum that God has given us this time to, as Board of Managers, as we've been ministers, to discuss the way in which

That we could be of one mind, one understanding, as Jesus encouraged us. In the Bible, it says that God is a spirit, and they that worship him, must worship him in spirit and in the truth. There's no way around it. If we're going to worship God and be obedient, we must do it with that Holy Spirit, which we have heard this

These gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us remain in faith. I want to read what Manuel Haaps has written in his book. He entrusted it as the word of reconciliation. Paragraph here. The Holy Spirit is always a gathering spirit. It melts believing men's hearts to a living fellowship.

It does not beget isolated Christians to one corner or another into another corner, but it forms one flock among a good shepherd. It unites into one hand Christ, one body. When the members are joined together seamlessly through brotherly love, and the flame up in your house has poured into the community of the saints,

We continue to live with that old gospel, that same gospel, that true gospel which we have heard this evening and which my heart also desires for all my false weaknesses.

The part that I got left pondering was where Dear Brother Kurt pointed out how

Jesus himself called the kingdom of God his mother when he stretched out his arm and pointed to his disciples and said, Behold, my mother and he that doeth the will of my Father is the same my mother and my brother and sister. And this office of the Holy Spirit is such an important topic to visit about

Because if the office of the Holy Spirit, as we heard from Luther's catechism, large catechism, is continuing the work of Christ in his kingdom, in the kingdom of God, which is our mother, then

It is important that we remain as children in the Kingdom under the care of the Mother. And I've thought about that

A little bit that, and as it came out also clearly in the presentation, that the voice that he might have in you, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, and that the Holy Spirit uses the models of my brothers and sisters in faith. Therefore then,

I guess it's something then that if a brother or a sister would speak or warn or bring up a concern, then the question is,

What's my response? I guess my initial reaction is to become defensive. And the flesh and blood hates to admit that it did something wrong. It's embarrassing a little bit. It's kind of shameful.

It's easy to go and find supporters and say, this person came and rebuked me about this, and I'm like, what do you think? It's easy to begin defending in this way that, well,

Maybe your conscience is a little more tender in this matter than mine, or begin to try to rationalize it. But I think it's important to remember, in those situations,

That, well, Scripture says God resists the proud of what gives His grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time. And Paul writes to the Philippians about the

The picture of obedience of our Lord and Savior, how he was obedient even unto the death of the cross. Wherefore God hath exalted him and given him a name higher than any other name. So then, if a brother or a sister in faith would bring up a concern

Then it's important that we listen. And especially then in those discussions,

Visit together. And if believers bring up concerns in meetings and discussions, that we don't just dismiss them.

It's easy to begin criticizing the care of a mother. That this shouldn't have been brought up in this way, or this matter shouldn't have been raised, or this board shouldn't have approached that board, or why are they being so bright? But I think

When we lose sight of the beauty of God's kingdom, and that vision becomes dim, then the care of the mother becomes something that we resist. It begins to chafe a little bit.

And it's difficult to humble ourselves to accept the care of the monarch. And that happens when we begin to grow a little bit in ourselves.

And when we are no longer as little of a child as the others, and maybe we think we have a little bit more understanding, or think that we have a little bit more enlightenment, or think that... whatever we think. Then...

The danger grows that we become this king's solid role to be a head taller than the rest of the people. And I think that that picture of the mother is such an important picture, and how our Lord and Savior himself took that littlest baby and said, these are the greatest in the kingdom.

Because when we, well my experience has been, when I have been approached, it's easy to complain that they didn't really approach me lovingly or they should have approached me in this way or I wish they would have done it in a different situation. But when I have, when I have, I guess,

I had to humble myself and listen and accept the care of a mother. Then, especially in those times when I didn't understand, I couldn't see, it didn't seem to me that it was such a big deal.

But I have found how God has provided such a great blessing when I have put aside my own opinions, my own understanding even, and humbled to that simple obedience of a child. Because

Even when we can't see, we can still hear. And as we heard in the presentation, that God is not the author of confusion, as Paul writes, but of peace, as in all churches.

I've thought and I've felt much pity for those who are struggling against God's kingdom and are struggling to hear the voice of the Spirit. And Ma'alikoi Kanela, after the minister's heresy, spoke of how this battle isn't a battle against flesh and blood.

It's not a battle against people, but it's a battle against the enemy of souls. As he writes about Ephesians in the sixth chapter, that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and the rulers of darkness and of the evil in this world.

And the enemy of souls would like nothing other than to blind our eyes and close our ears so that we would not see the beauty of God's kingdom, would not hear that still, small voice of the Spirit. And he and Mama spoke that we would have that pity and love for them.

That God would again open their eyes and open their ears. And that's my prayer as well. And I know it's the prayer of all of God's children, that none would be lost to the enemy. But it is important to remember, as we heard, that the Spirit of God is in unity, and it is important to ask whether I am part of that unity.

But I feel my own failings and doubts and sinfulness and why here or else. Can I agree? Okay.

I thought of the verse, one of the verses that I brought up in the presentation of Psalm 51. And it's a beautiful verse. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart.

Oh God, I will not despise. We've always known that children of God find themselves to be poor and weak and undeserving of God's grace.

But it seems in recent times that some have become proud and boastful and don't have that contrite heart of a child of God, don't seem to have that desire

To be in union with God's children and it can only lead one astray. We pray that God would reveal to those who are rising above the congregation that

They would have grace to understand their error and leave sins forgiven by Jesus' name and blood. And I'd like also to address Fred's question on how far close to condemnation

And to avoid them. If someone continues to cause division, and even after being spoken to a couple times, then that instruction is there to protect

The child of God that they will be drawn into, that falseness can be one of those to be deceived. It is even more clear when he talks about a heretic that after one or two admonitions, flee the

And we do not want to put ourselves, to continue to put ourselves in a place of danger where we could lose the way and begin to believe those who cause religion.

And thanks Kurt for putting this presentation together. God has been with you and it has been nice to listen to the discussion. A matter of faith is a personal matter. And every one of us has our individual faith.

But yet that saving faith is held really in the fellowship of God's congregation. And the fellowship of God's congregation is the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. So it does put every one of us into a place of a humble member of the body of Christ.

It puts us into a need for that fellowship. And of course, as we have heard and read Luther, we remember what he said, that if we want to find Christ, we need to first find God.

His congregation, well, here in God's congregation we have found Christ. We can continue to be in his fellowship. Kurt pointed out that close fellowship that Christ himself has with his followers, that he cultos around the matter, that those services as his brothers and sisters and mother,

Of course, we don't understand from that that Christ would need the congregation to be Christ, because He is the head of the body. And in that regard, that reference there speaks to that fellowship that Christ nevertheless has with us.

Who are in this body or who are in this congregation is really the same thing. And being that we all want to follow our Lord and we want to continue in that fellowship,

It is, I believe, our desire to, in this life, to not cause, well, first of all, the matter of faith is personal and we want to care for that.

Be living in our own faith, but then also that we would not cause any kind of stumbling block for other believers. And such is the life of a believer and God has called us to live in his congregation and

It gets tough to have personal faith when those stumbling blocks do appear. So that's the call for any of us who feel that, you know, that we are causing stumbling blocks on our brothers and sisters,

To not do so and if that has happened, to care for those matters so that the air can be clear and we don't need to be so worried about the difficulties that we are having now. So may God

Give us such hearts to find ourselves in need of this fellowship of God's congregation and find the dear mother as we have been here and here. And I guess I certainly haven't been an example myself and in many ways we have not.

I still can't forgive all of my sins.

When I think about the last year or so, what discussions that we've had in our congregation,

And we talk about marking those who cause division. I think the congregation members know, and members who cause division have marked themselves. Depending upon the subject, I know if certain people show up there, I know how the discussion will go.

I don't think it's an opinion, it just is that way. Those same people I've had conversations with, sometimes casually, congenial, and other times I've been rebuked.

I tried to ask what the review was that becomes very vague, and I'll give you a sense of those conversations.

One of the points was this, that they believe this person, I should say that he is this person that called to your duty, so that in North American Zion, it's been, North American Zion has been under, like, imprisoned for 40 years.

And so the question of why the Laestadians keep coming up there apparently is at least some who believe that since that time believers or this group of Laestadians has been imprisoned, like held under a thumb. And their explanation was that they believe that there is a doctrine of confession.

And I try to ask this person, can they explain what I have said or done that points to that fact that I am under that doctrine of confession? And then the topic turned again to a familiar topic here in Southern Minnesota, which is continual forgiveness.

Now what came to my mind is from the Gospel of Luke, the 17th chapter, the third and fourth verses, the words of Jesus. It says, If ye keep to yourselves the pleasure of your trespass against me, review him, and if ye repent, forgive him. And if ye trespass against me seven times in the day, and seven times in the day turn again to me, saying, I repent, thou shalt forgive him.

So this person who tried to explain to me how they believe about continuing forgiveness, explained that the gospel is not the gospel that saves, it's faith that saves, and the gospel is only meant for taking care of things in this time. And so I tried to steer the conversation to the parts of God's Word that talk about sin. It came up in our presentation, how sin, when it's finished, brings forth death.

So if sin has that kind of power, what can you take care of at that time? And then turn to getting back to the gospel. So is this something just for this time, or is the gospel singing? And so again, we turn to the same familiar conversation which we had in this presentation program.

You can go in and out of faith, and this part, when Jesus talks about it, brings all those into plenty of you, I think. So if I look at this and it says, if my brother, one of my first questions is, who is my brother? If we're talking about it simply as a temporal thing, it confuses me.

Because then afterwards, the apostles said to the Lord, increase our faith. So they connected to faith, this discussion. So in my mind, I immediately just come to that, that it can't be temporal. And so this brother, then I wonder, is this brother someone who's lost faith, or is someone who's in faith? If the person is someone who's lost faith,

We rebuke them and they repent and we forgive them, and the same time, seven times in a day, they turn against us. That means we've gone in and out of faith seven times. Or, if this person is our brother, and they're, as we believe, I think, even though it's clearly said here, we don't go in and out of faith, but that then does mean that we repent of sins.

And in fact, in lots of these discussions, I've just come to that conclusion that what I have in my thoughts as a liberalist is according to God's word, and I don't see it in any other way. If there are those who believe in a different way, it shouldn't be the way, because my goal is to make it to heaven.

If I've gone astray and I'm holding people under some kind of confession doctrine, let me know. Show me. I can only see by the problem what God in His Word says and what we have been taught through the Holy Spirit and God's congregation that this is the way to heaven. I've been comforted by that fact. And as it also says in these discussions,

All places like this in God's Word, and I've been comforting them again. But the way that I've been taught, and the way that I've been taught, I feel is according to the Spirit of God, it's according to God's Word, and it leads to heaven. And there's no other way to look at it. It's what I believe, and that's what I teach.

If that's not what is according to what the boards of the congregation desire, I don't have any other way. So I respectfully ask you not. And I think that's one of the things that is part of this discussion, and also we have leadership in God's congregation, that that is part of this. If we're teaching something that is different,

It is our responsibility to take care of those kinds of things, bring them to the congregation, let them make those kinds of decisions. And so many times you can worry about whether that can be your best.

I thought the presentation was good and I could feel the voice in their chapter.

I marvel who I know with God's patience. I've been here probably just about 18 months since I came to be part of the [LLC] office staff.

It's kind of fearful to think about these things, what they mean, and I think of great timidness for trying to speak to them. I feel really timid myself, even if we try to speak.

But I think we're talking about some particular brothers. Some of us sitting, some of the speaker brothers, I don't mean to say that I'm including myself, but some of us as brothers have lost the trust of all other servants of God.

And who have lost the trust of the kingdom of God in general. So I think that's an important point. Trust has been lost. Some have been called to serve, have taken wrong turns. They appear to

Have a different understanding or at least a different emphasis on parts of God. And that is causing distress amongst the children of God, the lambs of God. It's caused distress to me.

I sometimes find myself under heavy doubts, and I start to think, is this God's kingdom? What does happen? And the Jordan's salvation then becomes

Some in distance or in danger. So I think that's the effects of these kind of teachings. The teaching in preaching is very close to that that we have called our teaching when we believe according to God's Spirit being the teaching that has come from God

That would be Christianity. It's very close to that, but it's not the same. And I could ask that question, then, are we seeing a difference of spirit? I don't mean to state that everybody that has made a comment is of a different spirit.

There is some sort of process that takes place where people, all of us, let's put it that way, all of us struggle with a wrong doctrine, wrong spirits, but always being told by the infinite soul. But at some point, when some other spirit or some other

Understanding governments are a part, then I think we see the things that would be seen here tonight. I've been part of the Cokato congregation for the time that I've been here, and I don't think the part members that are here tonight have seen anything different.

Increasingly that question is coming up in congregations, not only Cokato, but in other words, boards are questioning whether certain others should any longer be in a position of trust as ministers or teachers. I think that's, to me that's a very basic and fundamental question.

I think God has been very, very patient with what I can see, what I can experience, but it seems that we are becoming very weary with the situation. So that is the question. There's a reluctance to call some of these brothers to spiritual events where they would be used as a minister or a teacher.

Some of you may have worked at services. I mean, you know, part-time cleric minister will be present. So I think that those are very real things. Like I say, it seems to me like I'm the last person to be talking about them, but yeah, that's what I believe in the heart. That's it.

The way that I see the situation, I'm here. Peter Brothers is one of your brothers, and that's all I can say. And a poor brother. But we also hear a demand to be shown by the written word where error has occurred.

And I think that that's a proud statement. It's a haughty statement because no one can be shown or proven anything without the Spirit guiding and showing. We understand, scriptural means heart in that class.

We've talked lots about doctrine and things like that. Showing doctrine. Doctrine simply means teaching. The teaching is emphasized differently. It can be taken differently and mean different things. So we can't prove everything.

But having so many have said that, we don't feel good. We feel troubled by the speeches of some of our own, some of our family. And I speak that in a spiritual sense. We are the family of God in narrow parts. We are as a family discussing what concerns us, like probably we would.

With experience in our own natural families under situations that occur, I think that maybe it's not so much doctrine, but I can't say that it isn't doctrine that's the difference. But at least in part, it is that pride or self-exaltation that demonstrates itself

That kind of audience that show me, kind of like, I'll believe you if I understand it first. That is, like the scriptures say, that charity, edifying, but knowledge puffeth up in these various

I never feel love. I don't feel like some listeners, both me and one of them, they want to prove they're right about something. Love is not there. Understanding is gone ahead of faith, I think.

There's been numerous meetings, many of which preceding the time that I came here. There's been several, including this meeting in the last couple of months. They don't seem to result in anything. May we advance the clarification of what the current concerns

Other than that, it seems to be a holding on to some kind of different ideas. I personally, I think this is very detrimental

The God's kingdom in North America that these brothers serve. I don't state it out of animosity towards them. I don't have any medications to the limit of the regards of my friends. But there is a difference of understanding.

And it's causing only negative things in God's kingdom. I don't believe that we are carrying the baggage of this time. I don't believe that we're teaching falsely any one of a number of things, but when brothers

Should they disturb God's kingdom when they hurt that kind of heart, can we in good conscience allow it to be that way? I really feel, dear brothers, timid to speak of this, but I am so worried for the clock of God in North America and

By certain brothers not speaking, it doesn't mean that all problems go away. But if you know it's a matter of conscience, at least for me, that this should not continue any further.

As many have said, we ask for God's grace and blessings in this very serious situation. It's not a vote. The goal is not just to believe some of your dirt duties.

The goal is the preservation of souls, first for those that seem to have a much different understanding of emphasis, but also for all of us, the flock of God. I think this is, to me, where we're at.

And I think although this group of people can't make any decisions or decide, I think it's time for us to think about this, that our

Brothers that teach and other wives and there's contention about them, around them, that is it now time for congregation boards to consider this matter very seriously and take it to their congregations and ask, is there a change that should be made?

This is what's in my heart. I put it before you. I feel intimate about it. I don't have any. Does it make you feel...

I'm happy to think about these things. It makes me very sad that some of these brothers that gather people around them that seem to have some ruptured bitterness against God's kingdom or individuals against God's kingdom. I pray for them. I like many.

When I awake many times in the night and the first thing on my mind is this situation.

I pray for those that are opposed and those that think differently. I pray that we all can be united through the power of the Spirit, experience the joy of salvation, and continue as children in the kingdom of children, in the kingdom of grace, and forgiveness.

But I need your prayers too to remain in faith. And I need to hear that as we get there, that I am there, I can believe my sins forever. You know, personally,

I was called to serve years ago now. I was called to serve. And with these new suggested teachings, the way I believed and the way I believed when I was called to serve

Cannot. I need to continue to believe this thing. Now, I'll make it clear. I found a good partner in the gospel, in God's Word, through the kingdom of God.

The introductions have brought many, many thoughts as we went through that, even thoughts that, you know, maybe I would speak about this or speak about that, but then they flee, and yet I was happy to be here to hear what has been presented in the discussion. I think it's also good that we would speak about the concerns that we have

And then one of the things in the presentation is how do we know when it's the spirit that's speaking? And sometimes I've had that question even in my own life that how do I know when I'm troubled if it's the spirit that is troubled or if it is the flesh that is troubled? And I think for a believer,

There's so much comfort when we are in unity with what is spoken in the congregation. And when the forgiveness of sins of the preached, we feel personally that we can believe that and the burden of sins is gone for a time. Or when we've been at a minister's camp

And we visited with some brothers privately or even openly, and sometimes their speeches have been confusing, or I haven't understood things as they have spoken. But then when a brother has wanted to take care of his matters,

Immediately I rejoice. It's the Spirit of God. Because we rejoice when those that are spoken in some way that is not edified speak of their matters and wonder at the wonder of the love of Christ. We rejoice in our hearts.

In recent times, I've heard, not to my face from somebody who has had this complaint, but I have heard that there are those that have criticism of the LLC. The LLC board and the staff who work for the LLC

Who have been called to serve there by the believers is not God's kingdom, but it is part of God's kingdom. And those who have served there in the office in their daily work, I thank God for them, that God has given them a heart to serve there.

And I thank the Heavenly Father when I've been able to be at the LLC board meetings and been able to hear the voice of the Spirit that has been present at every one of those meetings that I've been at over the years. And there's not one error that has risen above the others in their actions.

And yet I marvel at how God has taught me and encouraged me again and again through the speeches and the instructions of the others. But then in the day that we're living, I fear that there's much, not many that I know, but much grievance towards those of us that serve

And I think the manifestation of this is beginning to show in our young families. Numbers of our young families now are beginning to somehow have this thought that nobody can tell me what is a good way of life or what is sin.

And there are some now who are beginning to openly, with their friends, and now becoming ex-friends or former friends, they are promoting what I have always been taught and I would also teach to be what I'm not going to be taught. And when my family has spoken to me

Of their sorrow when they no longer fit with their former friends. And the reason is because their children are still wishing to endeavor, battling against sin and temptation. Dear brothers, this is what's happening.

When there are those who are not in the middle of the debate, and some of the questions have been brought out as debate, not as how do we understand this or how do we understand that, or is my understanding weak, or can I leave this inability to even understand this matter.

And when murmurings have been against those who have only, in my opinion, wanted to serve God's children as they've been asked and not their own bellies, then there are those who are also tempted and begin to think that there are some men in black suits who have made rules that are putting us in bondage or in jail.

I wanted to simply unburden my heart because I've been so sorrowful, especially now recently on the division of our young sisters and how they're not necessarily following some man, but they're following a different teaching.

They're following their own way and they're losing the way that leads to eternal life. And yes, I do pray on behalf of them and I pray on behalf of my own children that they wouldn't feel the persecution from other believers to the point where they would also begin to stray because they cannot confess their faith any longer or they do not

We stand the enemy when the enemy says, come this way. We need to lovingly reach out to these young. We need to, in our sermons, speak of the day that we live, and we also need to speak of encouragement. There are many places in the Bible, in the New Testament especially, that speak of all wisdom.

And how wisdom does not save. Paul says, not many wise. And sometimes I hear the discussions or the questions that have been asked and I don't understand them. I wish to be wise and I want to understand those questions. And I realize that God has not given me the need or the ability to understand.

But I can believe. And this has been the message always in God's kingdom. And in recent years, there's become a different level that seems to be somehow among us, but not openly spoken of. And yet, in some of our

Congregation discussions. We have heard of those who do not feel in unity, do not, with their speeches, see the beauty of the North American believers, or say that the speakers are law-minded but don't give evidence or help us understand in what ways we are law-minded, or are self-righteous.

All of these are causing great harm to the flock. But I also become afraid for my own self. And the only place I've been able to

We have a couple here. I just want to clarify what I said earlier. I'm not resistant to change or to be wrong. If I'm wrong, I want to be corrected. But what I am saying is to dare change the way I believe to these new things that I've done. Okay, Ron and then Steve.

I'm one of the older ones here and I'm thinking back to a time when many of you weren't even born. Maybe some of you were children. Thinking back to a time of my teenage years and the

I would say the disunity of teaching in the Kingdom of God. I grew up with myself. I grew up in Cokato, which is 50 miles down the road from Minneapolis. Cokato had a fairly large congregation. Minneapolis had a fairly large congregation. And there were things that were happening in the congregation

For instance, in Cokato I participated in organized sports in high school. But the teaching in Minneapolis was different than that and most of the young in Minneapolis did not participate in organized sports. There were differences of understanding amongst

The young people between here and, I would say, Upper Michigan, more or less. And there was turmoil, I guess. I didn't realize it at the time because I wasn't even thinking about those things at the time. But later, in those years before 1973, a certain brother, [Heikki Saari],

Speaking ban, or whatever you want to call it, SRK did not want him to be preaching, at least temporarily, and he came here from Finland. And he started preaching to God, and it was different.

And he was a very charismatic guy. He had a very compelling personality. He had a loud voice, and he sang about the congregation. Not to say that that would be wrong, but it seemed like he was gathering around himself a flock.

He preached on the West Coast. And then later he was called to be the pastor in one of the congregations in Michigan. And there was a question about this man, about his doctrine, about what he was preaching. And I remember as a young man, as a teenager,

This man had a spirit of self-exaltation. Individual congregations saw it fit to not call him anymore to speak in their congregations.

There was a tension between individual congregations and what was called the American Mission at that time of how to handle this situation of this matter. And basically, nothing was done. But then later we received help from Brother and Sister

But before these things could be taken care of, we came to 1973 and there was a heresy in North American Zion that basically split the American Zion in half. And so I think

Answering to Walt's questions, I think it's dangerous for us to continue to have speaker brothers speaking in American Zion who are not in the same spirit as what we understand as the [correct] spirit.

Concerning this presentation, I agree 100% of what was said in this presentation and what has been said in these many comments. I think that if nothing is done, if we continue with

Just say two sides or two spirits or whatever you want to call it. It's going to continue to deteriorate in the Kingdom of God. And we know that God in His time will take care of matters. And He did take care of matters in 1973, if I remember.

And some now are saying of these times after 1973 that these meetings were not handled right. And I agree with one of the speeches here that talked about bitterness being carried from caretaking meetings that happened in 1973 or perhaps the 80s.

But I have to believe in this way that God knew at that time what was happening. And He knew what was needed in the Kingdom of God. And if we begin to analyze the things that happened and the wrong, how could we say, caretaking in some cases that had to happen,

But then we begin to question God and God's care of His Kingdom. And I think that if we begin to do that, we are putting ourselves into a very, very dangerous place. And I agree with these comments that have been made.

In those years, before 1973 at least, in the home that I grew up in, God's Spirit guided in that home, and those teachings that were given in that home are the same teachings that are given now in God's kingdom. And these are the teachings that I want to reveal.

Before we go to the stage, there was a hand back there with your sister, but this is a board meeting, so hopefully there's good instructions for all of us here.

To listen to what I would say is the Spirit of God teaching here this evening, from the presentation and through all the loving speeches thus far. May God's Spirit embolden you brothers to speak up, speak so openly about how you

We are seeing these matters that are serious matters that are straying from the simple way of faith, the simple way of the way of heaven.

And I won't take much longer to speak, but I wanted to take a short turn here at least because during the meeting I got a call from my father and he was like, the sister's passed away! So if your daughter's in faith, with that sancticity,

Of which I would like to also regain our faith until that day when God will call me from this life. But I will leave here shortly to head for Toronto, where he resides. I, as they are already, was at the back of that space.

Just a little while, we'll be back soon. So, again, I rejoice that we've been up here tonight, this evening's discussion. It is with love, it is with concern, it is with that care for all of my souls that answers to my heart and my spirit as I listen to this discussion. May it be.

For the edification of God's kingdom. God's children. His congregation. That matters aren't cared for. But His word is spoken. A bold word. God's spirit doesn't lead and lead. It doesn't lead in different ways. It doesn't divide.

Let's make each one of us have that spirited overhaul that we want to hear. What is His Word teaching? What is God saying? What is He telling me? So that each one of us can live that faith. And I ask you,

Okay, next on the list is Kirk Turmo.

As a daughter would, I want to say farewell to my father. He gave me joy cities, put aside those earthly worries and turned what he was before he released me into the wilderness, resting in comfort with me. I also feel that this topic is very important to consider.

The congregation has blessed brothers into the office.

The day we're living in has caused, for me, a lot of doubts and worries and concern. I've felt more in recent days that the time has come where it feels that the congregation boards need to take these matters into serious consideration in their discussions.

There are those weak travelers now who have called, spoken, lamented. How long will these matters be allowed to rip? There are those weak ones who are being tempted and troubled. We see calls from North America tonight lamenting,

They hear different speeches and sermons and different understandings. It's troubling. So I think it's a good time now that the congregation boards would begin those or continue those discussions among themselves. Prayerfully ask that those things affecting our congregation

And would it be appropriate in the right time to bring matters of discussion to the congregation. Of course it would be nice that the board would be able to be unified in their understanding of these things if there is a servant of the word who is causing unrest in the congregation. But yet we also know in times of strife and difficulty

That when the congregation is divided, so also often is the case that the board is divided. Because the board is part of the congregation. The board is not separate from the congregation. It's only the servants.

We look for gifts that can benefit the work of the Kingdom. We prayerfully ask of God's direction with installing that. I think equally so now we need to also prayerfully ask for God's help and direction.

They've traveled. They've affected. Some of those servants who have been struggling and resisting the care of God's kingdom and the voice of the Holy Spirit. God through the Spirit can care for them.

All other congregations have been given to care for this service. We can't be shy from that responsibility and duty. We're talking about the undying souls. I don't know either that the demand has been recently to talk about this, removing a servant and showing where there is care from the doctrine.

I don't believe that there is evidence of clear wrong doctrine. For me it's enough to know that there is unrest around the service of one of the ministers. I'm sure we can hear in the world today

I believe in the, for example, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. There are many such folkies there who are studying Lutheran theology and speak very clear theology, very clear doctrine, but yet,

I don't usually speak to these, but I worry so much about them.

May God help us. I'm worried that there will be those lost. And I wanted this evening also to bring the greetings from our brother Don [Lahti]. He sent me an e-mail, and he wanted this greeting sent here.

Dear brothers and sisters gathered here this evening. I have been deeply troubled with all the turmoil in American Christianity during these past several years. As most of you know, I was unable to attend tonight's meeting [personal reason omitted]. Many of you younger board members and speakers were either not born or too young to remember the turmoil of the last heresy.

A brother from Finland, SRK board member [Eino] Alajoki, was here in 1972 at the October meeting of ministers and board members where the problems that led to the heresy were discussed. [Eino] stated years ago that the heresy of 1973 was fairly easy to see through, but he predicted

Among those over whom there is concern, there are various factions, each with their own ideas of what Christianity should be. But they are all united in their battle against God's kingdom. They may not even agree with each other.

Pointlessly, the children of Israel. The writer of the Hebrews states in Hebrews 3.15, today, if you hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the day of provocation. A theologian may say that this is meant for an unbeliever, but the writer is addressing believers, and it applies today to anyone

It also seems that there are ministers and board members who are causing confusion and are, hopefully, doing so. The devil knows that he has but a short time left, and he is using it very wisely. One example of confusion is questioning the decisions of God's Kingdom, such as our position on television, in which the Holy Spirit,

I also see similarities in some of our ministers to a certain former brother who was once preaching and teaching God's word correctly, but he ruined himself.

It is important that we take heed of their concern. If our sermons no longer feed and guide and become overly theoretical, we are not on a safe ground. If a brother's sermons continually cause unrest or lose congregation, he needs to seriously consider what is the best for the unkind soul of the brother

And what is best for the congregation? It is the responsibility of the congregation board to prayerfully, lovingly, and truthfully consider and discuss the concerns and questions that bring the matter to the congregation for consideration and decision. God's peace, week, brother, and the work of the kingdom of God.

Before I even take my turn to speak, I feel my own blackness and dullness and sin. Can you preach that gospel to me? Also, too, Nathan Mahonen and Joe Kesky are on an Israel trip and wish that they're agreed to be brought to this meeting and they're remembering us in prayer and hoping that

During your opening presentation period, it was, I would say, men. My thoughts are turned to this portion that you had from Ephesians 4, on the 29th and 30th verse, that said, let no corrupt communication proceed

That which is good to use at edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers, and grieve not the Holy Spirit, or God, whereby ye have sealed unto the day of redemption. So what does, I guess my thoughts, when I thought of the Holy Spirit and how it guides,

And it's even, I guess it's interesting now to hear the greetings from Don [Lahti]. He spoke about the decision of Holy Spirit God, the decision that the believers wouldn't have televisions.

And I've heard over the course of some years that of course television is not in the Bible and so forth, but if we start to put in God's kingdom where us as board members or speakers begin to question these decisions that were guided by the Holy Spirit,

And if we have these discussions, and another one I think of is Halloween. You know, the decision that we would participate or go and do the Halloween thing. If we begin to question and say that, well, I can...

I can do this and it's not going to harm my faith life. There's other believers that know that this happens, but this is, I would say, very simply grieving the Holy Spirit. And sure, maybe it doesn't, in the course of one time, does it

And I would say this, that when I think of this, of the Holy Spirit, where we heard even in the presentation that the Holy Spirit calls and gathers

I was looking at some cross-references here to this Ephesians 4.29 in the book Let No Corrupt Communication. When I've heard of sometimes these discussions in the past, and I guess I haven't really even thought of it in the sense that even back then, a number of years ago, that they were challenging at that time God's kingdom

Just kind of a conversation, you know, about these things, television and social drinking and Halloween and so on. But if these things fester and we allow them to fester and we don't accept the will

All these things of God and the will of the Holy Spirit that the enemy can allow these things to fester. And one of these cross-references, or a few in one, says when Jesus was speaking, he said, oh, generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For, oh, the abundance of the heart will not speak of that.

These things that if we let them fester even in our, and we don't take care of those, even those, if we'd say those wrong, or questioning, that those can begin to fester and so on. And I would say even, too, when I think of, when I've heard, I've heard with my own ears, criticisms of the 80s,

Of those who got brought before the congregation, I've heard that which has been of a believing heart and that which is not. The believing heart says, you know, it was probably wrong and let's not, I don't have any ill will. He and his brother was brought before the congregation and he said, you know, I had to confess

He freely believes and has joy in believing and sees God's congregation as the pillar of normal truth. And there's those who have bitterness over that. And I think of how this even grieves the Holy Spirit. So,

When I think of two... Of course, I had these thoughts in my head before I had my time to speak, and now I'm kind of just trying to cover them all, but another thought that I had was this, about the Speaker Brothers, that if I was to be asked to step down,

And I would say, well, I think I've spoken doctrine of correctness, and if the brother said, well, I know what you're causing, confusion. For me, I would feel like that's enough. I wouldn't want confusion. But the other thing is this, that...

Are there other things other than these doctrinal issues? Have you spoke to others in the congregation what's on your heart about some of these other matters of television? Or have you told them that, oh I can, have you ever said, oh I can watch TV and

Are we participating all the way? Maybe there's some of these other things that we have, that the Spirit has instructed in the congregation that we are questioning, but yet on all points of other doctrine we might be right. Those are just, I guess, my thoughts in this.

Even though it might be at these points of doctrine, but yet on these other points where God's congregation has clearly spoken that we have even murmured in our heart that we have spoken to others against. Okay, thank you.

My thoughts are this connected, but I'm going to try to make them understandable. I'm going to go back just a little bit in time from when I realized or felt that perhaps it's time for this book to be a guidebook. But the feeling that I have gotten is

The amount of sins preached in the Gospel by some has been minimized to some degree. At least that's the way I've taken it, that it's not so important in your everyday life.

And I was a wild boy. And when I went to bed for the night, I felt that I had sins on the conscience. And I wanted to have them forgiven. And I asked him. And he preached the gospel.

And also the other way around. And I was able to restfully watch his statement.

During those times when I was a teenager, I needed it. My faith was almost none. I guess those were the years of trauma for me. And now that I think back to those times, I hear that you just need to have faith.

It makes me think that so I didn't really have to ask for my sins forgiven. And the heart of a child in me, it just breaks when I think along those lines. Because those were precious times that I draw strength from even today.

The expectation was that we make repentance when we ask for our sins forgiven. I didn't feel that I had fallen away from faith, although I'm sure many times it was close. But I wanted to repent from what I had done. And so many times we had

One of the thoughts that I have had as of late is, and I'm sure maybe many of you, or most of you, perhaps even all of you Speaker Brothers have thought, what if I was the one that was causing unrest in my congregation?

My prayer is that if that happens to me, that I would have the heart to ask to not serve until I

Until I have found the error of my ways, and whether or not that will ever happen, it would be for me to serve again if it doesn't matter at all. What's important is that I do remember in Sweden when my brother was asked to come back, and I'm sure it was very humbling for him.

[He was crushed] in his pride, of course, but he wanted to be obedient, and he stayed in God's kingdom. And some years after, he was a pastor, served again, and he is still serving today.

In the love of God's congregation, if one is not sincerely believing, and when I think about it along those terms, it is not a one-time deal that at the time he was in the love of God's congregation, so he cannot be taken down. So if we think along those terms,

Today, even though we have been speaking for a few years or many decades, we can still ask that question, that is he within your whole congregation, and especially within your board, that are our speakers in the love of our congregation? And lastly, I've thought out

I'm sure that as you can't, because of what you have been asked to do by God's children, it's hard to leave work at work in this regard. You take it home. You carry it every day. It's a burden. But remember that

The children of God, we try to care you and pray for you.

I don't feel that I have much to add or to offer. I also

Join my heart to that introduction that we heard in the speeches also that we heard this evening. It's a very significant and weighty matter that we see these

And for so many years we've rejoiced at a time of peace, a time of work, and as has been mentioned in the times of the 70s and 80s, I think of those battles that are

Parents, grandparents, experienced in those times, and those who were called out for heresy to begin to organize a new mission for the American Zion.

Most of them were very average and ordinary men. They were called out of their element.

To do important work and there was a great task before them. And we see how God richly

There's been much talk about the faults and caretaking of those times afterwards and going forward. And it's been said many times that it's regrettable when they were difficult matters.

But when we think of how the work of God can be done by faulty people, and if we wait for those workers who won't make those faults and errors and wrong turns, we won't have any servants or workers.

And I think for the most part, I'd say I know that for the most part, the congregation of God carried those brothers. Those brothers forgave one another. The love of Christ was between them. Most of them have reached

Servant of the Word. Early 1980s. I remember them with love. And so I thought that

This focus on the faults, the caretaking of those times, I think that some have defiled themselves in this that they've become so focused on those that they haven't seen where they've stumbled.

The work went forward and flourished and continues to go forward and flourish.

Building and many other buildings. The kingdom has increased many fold. And some of you are stuck.

Something on those things and I've been able to enjoy and rejoice in this victorious procession of the gospel and rejoice over the precious work of God's kingdom now.

We've received so much in those times and since those times. Pray that none would get left out of the way. And honestly say that they don't have

Those who the congregation has called to serve on boards and to serve as servants of the word. There's been this sensitivity that they're referred to as watchmen on the walls of Zion. The ministers are only the watchmen on the walls, so who's going to take care of the ministers?

It's a scene where the boards and the ministers care for one another, as the congregation does also. But it's that lack of trust that's evident. It's even so that we see that

Boards and speakers can't have meetings without uninvited guests coming. It's a fruit of that distrust. A congregation is called your servants and your workers. Can't we trust that the Holy Spirit is

Leading and guiding. There's times for congregational meetings, but it's also important that there's times when boards can meet and do that work that they've been called to do, and the congregation would support and trust and pray for them. May God help us

I ask and I believe all of my many impatiences in these matters and faults and it's so easy to go in the arm of the flesh but I want to express my feelings and also be cared for

By the congregation of God, who remained as a child here, can you forgive me for all my faults? In all sense, we're going to change the subject. [crosstalk]

I have to say for my part that being here and listening to the presentation and the speeches that have been made so far that I've experienced this event, there are a lot of concerns and a lot of troubling thoughts and questions that have been happening in recent times.

It's evident that God's Holy Spirit still resides here in God's kingdom, and he's here with us leading the guide. As the presentation was given and the discussion has happened, there have been many, many thoughts that have crossed my mind, and there's been this question in my mind that should I take the turn to speak?

And somebody else takes a turn to speak, and those exact thoughts and words that were in my mind have come out of another individual's mouth. How else can it be that there can be such perfect unity of thoughts and understanding on these issues of Bible Holy Spirit? I have to say, as far as the LLC goes,

Jim, I've had many of the same thoughts and troubles and I've heard comments about men in black suits and that the LLC is lot-minded. And this thought and feeling that there are some individuals seeming to be rising up against the LLC. Who is the LLC?

It's us. It's part of God's kingdom. Like Jim said, it is not God's kingdom. The All Seat is not God's kingdom, but it is a part of God's kingdom. God's kingdom through his congregations has called us his brothers and sisters that serve either on the board or as employees.

They are not there of their own high desires, but with the willingness to serve God's kingdom. And the LLC, in its beginning, was formed with the intent of helping communications and unity in all of the congregations that are surrounded across North America.

And to help with all this beautiful work that happens in God's kingdom here in North America. There's been many thoughts and ideas over the last few years that I've heard that have been deeply troubling and I've had some of the same feelings as Tony that on this matter of forgiveness and

Also on the matter of confession, that it seems that there's a will and a desire by some to diminish the necessity and the power of the gospel of the forgiveness of sins and of this gift of confession also. And I have to say that to me that's troubling. For me personally, confession is such a beautiful

Beautiful gift and tool that God has given me. To be able to use. To help me in my way of life. It isn't a demanding thing. It isn't a tool that's used as suppression over an individual. But it is used so that I can free myself of those

Bonds and shackles of sin. And when I'm able to use that tool of confession, especially with my wife, who is given to me as a helpmate, she better understands me and the temptations and the struggles that I deal with.

So that we can walk shoulder to shoulder on this pathway to heaven, and she can help to carry you. And with a matter of forgiveness, the way that we preach forgiveness is with her so many times tonight. In this simple phrase that we use, that you can leave all of your sins forgiven in Jesus' name, O precious.

I've heard personally these statements that you will not find these words in the Bible. That this phrase in this statement is not in the Bible. But that it was man that started using it. And it's been my understanding

By inspiration of the Holy Spirit to man to use. And the thought came across my mind just in that portion where the lame man was lowered down through the roof. But he told that individual to rise up and walk.

And those that were around Christ could see or knew the thoughts in their mind that who is this that can forgive sins? Who has this power? And maybe my thinking is way off track on this, but the thoughts crossed my mind that he answered that question. He said, is it better for me to say to take up thy bread and water or that thy sins are forgiven?

And do we need to split hairs on this phrase that the Holy Spirit has given us to use? My understanding is that in that simple phrase, in that term, it embodies in complete totality all of Christ's work, of God's gospel, of Christ's gospel.

All of that has been given by the Holy Spirit, and in that praise is the essence of the word that Christ has done for us. I know for myself that if I didn't have that, if I had to put that on the shelf, if that term had to be put on the shelf for me, and all I had to do was believe, nothing else. I think some of you in this room have probably been in the same position I've been in, in my life.

In that position of darkness. And if that was to be removed from God's kingdom, and for me personally, I would be in darkness. But it's not a position I want to be in. My desire is to get to heaven.

And I would agree with Kurt when he said that these items that are up here on this slide are spiritual things. They're gifts from God to help us here in God's kingdom. And if you remove them from God's kingdom, you're here. And for my only thoughts and words, I'm not here with that.

Thank you. Sam is back and then Adrian. It's been good to sit and listen and enjoy it in my heart and in my mind.

My thoughts began to turn to Kurt's presentation when we saw the slide about is God's word more important than the Holy Spirit or however that was. And as Peter writes in his epistle, we know that all

Peter and Paul write how all scriptures given by inspiration of God is profitable for reproof and exhortation. I think Paul says inspiration of God and Peter says that scriptures came not of private interpretation but holy men of God speaking as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. And how comforting it is in our time that

Knows how to open that word, to feed the listeners for instruction, for reproof, for rebuke. And how secure it is to trust that that same Holy Spirit that caused that word to be written is also here.

I think it's important for every person knowing the hearts and knowing how to open God's word through his weak and poor servants. And as such then, this kind of a criticism or a thought that we need to stop and read what the Bible says is, I guess, I haven't been to any discussion whether it's been

Or any kind of meeting where these matters wouldn't have been visited without, in the light of God's Word, opened by God's Holy Spirit. And I think the criticism is have we wanted to hear that or not? And have we wanted to believe? And it's also then struck me how many of these questions that have come up in our time, in recent years, whether

It would have been initially, a couple years ago, the question of withholding the gospel, or is there ever a time when believers could not preach, or what the keys of the kingdom are, or...

Watchmen on the wall in the Role of Righteousness and have been visited about in the congregations and at minister's teleconferences and minister's camps and how I have marveled how God's Holy Spirit has opened and led and guided the congregation to a common understanding and then there has always been something else that has come up with it, the adult. And something else comes up. And then something else comes up.

And this kind of... I guess this just points again to a lack of understanding and trust in the Holy Spirit in the congregation and in what is the office of the Holy Spirit in God's kingdom. And as we have already heard, it is...

A dangerous place when we no longer find ourselves in the place of the child. It's the work of the enemy of souls, as the prophet Ezekiel even writes of how his work, and I marveled at the greetings of Don [Lahti],

That he remembered how that Finnish brother was given such wisdom to see. And even our time is owned by the Holy Spirit. And Ezekiel writes how the work of the enemy of the souls can be so fine that they set their threshold by my threshold. The doorstep to their understanding comes right by the understanding of God's kingdom.

It's almost the same, but God's Word says that there is yet a wall between me and them. As we have already heard, that if there is no Holy Spirit, there is no life.

And as one of the finished brothers said in that meeting in October 1972, that that was a common criticism of Walter Torola at that time, that where does he speak doctrinally correct? And that brother reminded what Jesus' words are. Where Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount said,

And the brother pointed out that you don't know them by their false preaching or by their wrong sermon. But he said you know them by their fruits. And it's been a sobering reminder to me when I have been called to sermon that what are the fruits of my service? Does my sermon and speech

Cause a division and unrest among God's children and questions and concerns that is that rather in the love of the kingdom? Or do the sheep hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, the Holy Spirit, which calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church in Christ, in law, in unity?

It's as if our Lord and Savior even said, the foolish in generation seeks a sign, or wants proof. Proof that they said, give us what kind of a sign? Give us a sign that we can believe. The multitude, after they had seen Jesus feed

Five thousand men knock on a room and choke with a couple loaves of bread and a couple of fish, and the next day you are saying, what sign do you give us that we believe? And it's sorrowful that the voice of the Spirit has been sounding and calling and preaching

And there are yet many who do not hear that and don't want to believe it. And I join in that encouragement on the Dear Brothers to you, dear board members in the local congregations. And that was such a touching reminder from our brother who told me that.

Even when brothers are called, we ask and visit that, is this brother in the love of the congregation? And that that's not a one-time deal, but that we continually ask, is this brother in the love of the congregation? Laugataskyla spoke of how when he had gone to a congregation where he didn't know very many people,

We have been a little startled and wondered that what kind of question is that? And he said that of course he is. And the brothers there had said that that's good, that we only tend to have believing preachers here service. And in his sermon he spoke of that, how that's such a

Servants even that we serve in the love of the congregation from that place of a child that we go in to serve. And that we would even have that kind of a custom, you know, as speaker brothers and as board members to visit the bus with prayerful hearts and trusting in the care and guidance

To bring these matters to the congregation as God in the will and leading God. Thank you. Next, David and then Bob. First of all, I would like to give a greeting to a couple of brothers known for performing the Roman hymns for us. Good to be here. I'm going to ask that their greetings would be brought here also.

Their prayer was that God will be here at the present with us, and we will die here. I have to say, God has been here. Beginning with our opening presentation, discussion, terms and speeches, have for me been the message that I've always heard, this message.

And there have been those that have died, that have said, we need to turn to the light. We need to understand.

We all have God's Word with us. I don't know if anybody else was so clearly brought out in the presentation or in other speeches that the Word isn't separate from the congregation. And when I approach God's Word, I try to approach it from that place

Indeed, the God's Word is the Holy Spirit. There are many things in this world that say that they all know God's Word as their God is the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit, during God's conjugations, indeed, the Holy Spirit is the God's Word. So my prayer is this.

God will open what he chooses to open from his word. And he won't open what he doesn't want to be opened. I can't believe that. It's not up to me to understand. Neither is it up to me to demand that God please understand.

I don't know if I can be compatible with what opens through history. Those that have questioned the battle in these times of the 70s and 80s,

I was a young boy at those times. But what I hear in some of those comments and speeches is not a picture of God's name in my book.

And as one brother once said, maybe Todd mentioned earlier, that when you speak to those that weren't a bit older than me, there are those that you can say, yeah, they didn't understand at that time, but they don't say that care wasn't needed.

They have said that with all the care that they will no longer be children of God. When we look back, I think we can see that the care in God's kingdom

Maybe trams a little bit. But if we understand that this is God's kingdom, and the Holy Spirit has led and guided and is here present in God's kingdom, then He has to live and pass. And we believe both things in this way. That was all this evening.

Myself, I came here being fearful. Darwin Lake.

Added to that felt the fear that will I be preserved as a child in God's company? Okay. So, my heart and soul listen to what I need to hear. Like, sit tight. Okay, Ron is next.

It's been good this evening to be here and hear this discussion. It's answered certainly to my spirit. And also the prayers that God would reveal his will here in our meeting this evening. Help us. And help us in the endeavor of faith.

I think one thing that I've noticed in the last couple of years is how the healing of souls has shifted our gaze to a focus on theoretical discussions and times debates. And what does God's Word really say?

What does this word mean? What does that word mean? New words, new phrases, new thoughts have been introduced. And then at the end of the discussion, it kind of comes back to saying, yeah, well, it's kind of really the old word, pain. And this is what I worry about so much.

Also we're joining with what our brother said earlier, the impact on our elders, impact on our youth, and the impact on us.

Do I need to suddenly now know something new to make it better? Can't I believe in the same way that I've endeavored in my life, in simply believing the preaching of the gospel, that by faith I believe my sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood?

Our young thinking that teaching has become old-fashioned. There's new ways, new ideas to believe. And it's taken them out of God's kingdom. Taken them away from God's kingdom.

We need to continue to preach and speak about the endeavor of faith. We battle the world, we battle our own flesh, we battle them as souls. He still brings that message, but did God really say it? And when we create doubts, even about

God's word, depending on it, it gives the enemy more opportunities to cause doubts in the minds of believers. If they're believing correctly, if this is God's kingdom,

It's sorrowful to hear in discussions when the love is broken. Whether it's in our home, whether it's with friends we've had for years, whether it's in our own congregation discussions. It breaks love.

Unity is lost. But I would say and encourage all of us, even this evening, that as I have experienced some of these kinds of trials that have come into God's Kingdom over the years,

The one thing that has remained consistent in restoring the image is when sins are put away in Jesus' name alone. I have come in my younger years to some meetings fearful and trembling that this meeting now is going to be

Have a very sorrowful outcome. But I marvel then when individuals begin to look at what's my part in this. Ask for their own forgiveness for the words they've said, the

Even their own anger towards their neighbor lack of love that has resulted from sin potential. We began to lose sight of the beauty of God's kingdom, this golden candlestick.

This is the enemy. It's not the enemy, dear brothers and sisters. The congregation, this mother that we've spoken of this evening is that mother that cares for us, that has the care and the love and the tools to bring us to the shores of glory one day.

If we simply believe the job of faith. I have spent the last couple of years working at the office and I have marveled at the unity there in our meetings

I have thought that if only brothers and sisters could have the opportunity to be in these meetings. I don't see those elevated type people. I see weak and poor servants and never able to serve God's kingdom.

Feeling their own poorness. I have different things that I compare to in life and one of those is my court career. 42 years working in public sector and never seen and hearing that I was cared for with the gospel.

But in two years, how freely the gospel has flowed in our home. It's carried, we think, for travelers. And it's sometimes been shocking to me to see how an enemy

Can take hold of somebody. They can turn their attack to workers in the office, for example. When believers have requested that something would be done, that some support would be given, some guidance would be

Given for their work in their own congregations or in the areas where they are serving projects that they're serving on. That support and help has been offered.

And then I've seen and experienced how somebody who has no part of the request or the discussions or the ideas has been angry, made accusations, drawn their own conclusions, and as I said,

Everybody has tried to break [love] in this way. So, I can only say that may our focus be on our own journey of faith first.

To care for our own matters. That God would give that kind of love that we would then, that the Samaritan help our neighbor and love our neighbor. Who of us here is without wounds? Who of us here would survive without God's kingdom?

We can't let the enemy rip the kingdom apart. We all need this help and care. And I would just encourage this way that we would not try to defend our own positions, our own understandings.

But as we have heard so preciously through our brother's presentation today, we would pray that God would give us ears to hear what the Spirit says unto the churches. I think God is calling, especially now in this time, for us to hear the voice of His Spirit.

The voice of the Holy Spirit. It's important, brothers and sisters, that we listen. It's a question of eternal salvation.

It's a beautiful golden candlestick that God has given us in which we can dwell in the house of God by faith, believing all sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name.

Okay, Randy Herrala from our center.

I've had a lot of troubles in my mind about these times that we were experiencing that found it so comforting, refreshing, uplifting to hear. And even these, I have seen spiritual things, gifts from God that have been before us most of the evening, and to treasure them, God has given them to help us in our endeavor

And so I've been so concerned about these times and the love that's breaking friendships, breaking attentions, listening to services with a different ear, and going to visit.

I am now worrying, wondering, where are they in these manners? And I felt like in some way the mistrust that

And comments that I've heard or felt, it's like there's a grassroots effort in some fashion, a campaign to change something or to change people, to correct something that some feel is not right.

And even those who serve in various ways. But this approach of it happening through the back door, some fashionists feel so troubling and destructive, as we've already heard this evening,

And when the congregation doesn't answer, it feels like I wouldn't want to just pause and question where am I, rather than to continue to pursue and propound those matters which cause trouble and confusion.

So I feel like this evening, dear brothers and sisters, is a very important evening. They've all been important meetings, but this isn't a normal Thursday night for any of us this time of year.

Warren is the seriousness of where we're at in these times, in this day.

And it's been good for us to gather in this way to share our feelings and our thoughts, how our matters in our congregations, what are we hearing or feeling and sensing, and how can we help each other, how can we help matters in our congregations, how can we help our brothers and sisters in faith who are struggling and at times with many questions and doubts.

I, for example, I feel like I haven't been personally spared much, but was recently about to read the Bible last evening and was asked to come with some urgency to a visit that was taking place among a few sisters.

And they were visiting with one sister there in particular about the minister's camp that took place in April and about a congregation meeting that had recently taken place.

And this one sister was very critical about the minister's camp and about reports given about the minister's camp. She wasn't there. So the question began that evening, what was the minister's, in our whole discussion, what was the minister's camp like?

And I have to freely share my thoughts as I have with others when I've been asked that question. It was very free and open. God's spirit was present. When these current matters were discussed, how we believe, most brothers said, that's how I believe, and found it also refreshing to hear simple explanations

And at the same time, there was much encouragement for anyone who had a different understanding to speak freely. Here's a good place to do it. All with so much love. And there were those who found need to hear the gospel, a place of repentance, and the gospel was freely preached. And at the same time, there was

And in this way, service is causing turmoil in God's community. And so this was how I described the camp. One of the sisters in that visit said, I've spoken to several writers.

Who were there and they all said the same thing. Which was comforting to me because I didn't know them myself so often. But then this sister who was in quite turmoil questioned

The congregation meeting she was referring to talked about judging, talked about why we can't record what we pray to when we see the use of the law properly, that I need the church law of Christ, and began to speak of the congregation meeting she was at, where I wasn't, as some form of

And at the end of the evening, our discussion there, I said, I wasn't at that meeting, but I have to say that I want to caution you to be very careful to speak about this kind of gathering of God's children in that way that you would describe it as bullying, spiritual abuse, or harassment. This is God's kingdom, and God's children carry

And it's not the only time in these recent years where I've been so perplexed over completely different reports of a meeting or a discussion that have gone forth.

And I don't understand how it can be so different, except it reflects where the heart was of the listener, the hearer, the participant in those times.

And so I thought so much about this, which we've mentioned tonight, but I'd like to read a few verses from the 10th chapter of John where it speaks about the good shepherd. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same as a thief and a robber.

The he that entereth him at the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice. And he calleth his own sheep by name, and readeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep both before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers. This parable speaks

Here Jesus says, I am the door. By me if any man enter in, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly.

I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling and not the shepherd, whose own sheep I am not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and cleaveth. And the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling cleaveth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my shepherd, and knoweth mine.

For me, even so low, I am Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have felt here, brothers and sisters, that it's the voice of the hierarchy that the children of God have heard.

And that's what's troubling about these times. And it's interesting when Jesus, a few verses later yet, finished this speech. And it said, There was a division, therefore, among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath the devil, and he is mad. Why hear him?

Others said, these are not the words of him that hath the hell, and the hell open the eyes of the blind. So some heard and were able to believe what Jesus said. Others said it was a bad thing.

I guess this is what we experience, the different reactions, the different reports to what is being said, what is being reported,

I fear that if these matters cannot be corrected, that more will be confused and troubled, and that those who have been affected will become hardened in the situation in which they're in, at heart's condition, and it will lead to those being lost.

And I join with those thoughts that several have mentioned this evening. It's not our volition or prayer that any will be lost. No men have a modesty toward any in these matters. I'm troubled when I know that I've served as a speaker and as an LLC board member and I hear these criticisms and lack of trust. What have I done?

To cause this in my own personal standpoint. And yet I just want to continue to believe myself as a child and pray that God will preserve me in the truth. May He help us. And may I believe all my sins.

It's almost 10 o'clock. I don't know how long we're going to go over here, but we're going to have a few people on the list here. Lars Henderson and Eddie Hopluck. It's certainly good to be here and be in the hearing of the Holy Spirit. I came here tonight, actually,

I thought to myself that I wouldn't even take a speaking turn here that I could just sit and listen. I hardly rejoiced in the comments that we heard in the presentation, the introduction that we heard on the Holy Spirit. And it's so often these times that we've been living

I've often gone back to that portion of the Psalms, that familiar prayer there, the 139th Psalm, where it says, Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me, have my thoughts, and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me into the light everlasting.

I would dare say that from the speeches I've heard that that's been a prayer of many that have been here. And I would even say that a similar prayer is probably heard throughout Zion. But how is it that we're asking that prayer?

When Jesus was about to be crucified, he told his disciples that one of you will be trained. And those disciples asked, that Lord is it I? Even Judas even asked that question, is it I? Of course, Jesus knew.

When we ask this question, search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts. When we ask, am I in the wrong spirit? Am I in the wrong understanding? If the spirit of God within the congregation convicts us, how are we responding to that call?

Are we saying, well, I still think I'm right, or we've been around all these years? Are we trusting that spirit, that voice in the congregation? We may even be boastful and say that, as Peter did, that, Lord, I would even go unto death for you.

But Jesus even knew that that wouldn't happen either. He even told Peter, he said, that you would, before the night's over, before the cock crows, that you'll have denied me three times. Not just once, but quite, but three times. And we know that that's exactly what had happened. We certainly can feel those times of nights and joy of believing where

We're so happy to be in God's kingdom that I feel like, yes, this is the way I will never fall out of God's kingdom. I will never sin again. I've had those thoughts, and it seems like it's just a short time after the sin detaches. And I've had to crawl to those thoughts.

All those are greats to hear the gospel from between the sins. And even coming here tonight, I also felt as I've been coming here that I would just sit and listen. But yet, I've been so happy and my heart is rejoiced in the unity in the speeches. My heart is in the grievance of how men too

We had a feeling of my many sins, my many doubts, my many weaknesses, and I said, can you hear me, God? But it also has a good relationship with me. Good. Thank you, God. We got here a little late. I didn't hear the whole presentation.

What I have heard, the discussion that has taken place, I can only say that I have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd. I have concerns that I have had. I have had emails and

It doesn't bother me. These types of emails that tell me that they can receive forgiveness through prayer, through reading a psalm, take their matter directly to God.

I have had conversations where I have been told that it's offensive for them to hear the preaching of the word, the encouragement to put sin away. This is the sin that I've heard since I was a little boy. To put sin away.

To keep faith and good conscience. This gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believes. I see we have visitors here tonight.

To be honest with you, I can only say that it seems odd to me. Lars already touched on that portion of scripture that I was going to read.

And I say it for myself, and I say it to all, and I say it to the ones that have come here. And search me, O God, into my heart. Try me into my thoughts. And see if there be any wicked way in me.

Reminding, rebuking. May we have this treasure to heed that word, heed that call. We affirm that it's the undying souls that are in question. Dear brothers and sisters, I need to hear that now.

That was the last on our list.

Just a thought that's been running in my mind, and Randy just now spoke to it a little bit. And I guess this then touches to you who have come who would not have been a board member or a minister. And I think I would like to ask

As Randy did in that exhortation that Mark spread from the psalmist, search me, O God, and know my heart. It's a question to ask that do we understand the office of the Holy Spirit in God's congregation correctly? I think it's nice that you have come and listened.

But in thinking of you who have come and knowing the speeches that many of you have kept, I have to say that many of those speaking terms have troubled me. And looking around, I don't see brothers and sisters here, congregation members who have kept speaking terms that haven't troubled me.

And that's, I think, an interesting distinction. I think it speaks to the correct understanding of what the office of Holy Spirit in the congregation is. That those who have been called to serve within the congregation as her servants, served in the love and support of the congregation, and if there is this kind of distrust

In the decisions that the congregations have made, it's important to ask that. How do I see the congregation? Is it a golden candlestick? Is it the church of the living God, the building ground of truth?

And I share that concern that, as you have heard, reminds us that one of the Lutheran churches where God said that I gave you space to repent. But God also says that my spirit does not always strive for man because he is but flesh.

And to pause and consider, do I have the humble heart and mind of a child, or do I have the unity and love of the congregation, or is there something else?

I originally wasn't planning on speaking to that, but those thoughts came, and I wanted to raise my hand here at the end, and I'm sure there will be other speaking terms, but I wanted to remember our dear brother Randy Herrala was leaving to Finland soon to serve the children of God there, and he would bring greetings from this meeting even,

In the love and full support of the congregation of God from North America, you are being sent to serve the children of God there and serve freely in the year. I'm going to go back there.

So, Warren, read my two-mediary gospel. I, for no other reason, wanted to take the mic to say that. My spirit says amen to what we have heard here today.

I also had that same thought in my head for most of the evening that Randy and Sam and some of the others had probably said much better than I could, but I just wanted to also say that if we somehow

If we think that we know something or we know more than the rest of God's children, if we think that we have some revelation, if we think that we have somehow learned something about the Bible that

That the rest of God's children don't know, we are then elevating ourselves and we know that the Holy Ghost is God and God lives in the believers and we know that

God speaks through simple, faulty, slow believers. And if we elevate ourselves, then how can we see? How can we hear? How can we believe what God is saying to us? So, it seems so important that we humble ourselves

To hear what these lowly, sinful people who believe, who have the Holy Spirit, that we hear what God says through their mouths. And in some ways, I don't even want to pretend to know much about

The 70s and the 80s and the caretaking that happened. But what I come away with from those discussions that I've heard is that those people at that time, erring, stumbling, failing believers, what they wanted to do is they wanted to be

In obedience, they wanted to obey the voice of the congregation. And because they obeyed the voice of the congregation, they were blessed. And we look at the results, and so many of them have been able to win the race, as Massimo said. And that, to me, is the good news of that time, is that those

Brothers and sisters wanted to be obedient. They wanted to get to heaven. And so they were able to take care of their matters. They were able to keep the faith. And that's my prayer too, that I could remain obedient.

Thank you. Yeah. I just wanted to say that it goes hand in hand with what Mike ended his speech with. In the, around 1980, I was in a meeting of

My father was the subject of caretaking. Which I found later was [not correct]. But I don't blame anybody there because my spirit was saying amen to that.

I was able to hear from that with my father, or myself with my father. But the point I want to make here is that my father, by the grace and mercy of God, went to heaven. Those brothers that were doing the caretaking and heirs,

By the grace and mercy of God, they went to Heaven. And dear brothers and sisters, it's only by the mercy and grace of God, and if we're faithful to Him, that we'll one day go to Heaven.

I have to just say that when I came here this evening I was living in prayer. Many fears have been on my heart and my conscience because of the things that we have heard

Troubling with the signs that are in God's Kingdom. But I have sat here this evening and I marvel how the Spirit of God has spoken so clearly. I am leaving this meeting with such incredible peace in my heart.

That here, brothers and sisters, God is in his kingdom caring for each of us. It is such a wonderful feeling. It's a feeling of peace. And dear ones who may have come here and you have maybe not

And maybe you have in your own heart not really agreed. There is dear ones for you. We pray that God will examine our hearts, search our hearts,

And that has been quoted so beautifully that if there be any wicked way to me, that he would lead me unto those fountains where I will be received. This is a beautiful union we have together through the fire of justice.

I just wanted to say to anyone that is down here this evening, it's been a blessing. God has called you. He cares about you. He cares about each of you. He created this group for you.

But when we turn to you, it's not possible. I want to encourage you all, it's not possible. You have to be all of your sins forgiven. In Jesus' name, just let all sins be forgiven.

And all of us are perfect. We've all had it. We've all fallen. But this is where we're going to be in a minute. Follow me. I ask you again, who's to hear from me?

I have this prayer for you. I agree with most of these given by God. And so I thank God. Let us close this evening in the Lord's attention. In prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, we came here with trembling and fearful hearts, but praying that you would be with us

We have felt your presence. We have heard your words and your voice. And so we thank you and praise your name. Let us all together join in the Lord's conviction. The Lord bless us and heal us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord have his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

So there is still some pizza left in the back. It's been warmed up and not in a minute ago as you're going out the door. You'll need to grab some. Also, there's four pieces of coffee.

Sam, you're really loud. Are you all loud? Yeah, we're all loud enough. It's not like that.