Minneapolis Congregation Meeting, September 30, 2018

Good morning and welcome to our meeting. We will open with song number 366. And if there are members that didn't sign in with Eugene at the table back there, please go back and do so now.

May the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the love of God our Father, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all this morning hour and always. Let us join in prayer and thanksgiving. Dear Heavenly Father, we, your children, have gathered this morning before your holy face and around your holy and undying word.

Humbly we ask, Father, for your presence and for your blessing. You alone are able to divide unto us those morsels of grace that you know our hungry and thirsting souls have need of. And so we ask that you would bless this meeting for the honor and glory of your name, the edification of your congregation,

And the salvation of all of our souls. And we pray as your Son has taught us. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever. Amen. The meeting order that is set in our bylaws for such congregational decisions actually establishes

Just what we are doing this morning, but also includes this, that this psalms, the hymns of Zion would begin the meeting and that we would also begin with prayer and devotion. So I shall read a portion of God's word from Paul's letter to the Corinthians, first letter, it's the second chapter of the following holy words of God.

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men,

But in the power of God. Albeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect, yet not the wisdom of the world nor of the princes of this world are come to naught, but we speak the wisdom of God in the mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world unto our glory, which none of the princes of this world knew, for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things that God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit, for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. Amen.

One of the aspects of our experiences this year has been from us brothers at minister's camp where God showed unto us by the power of His Spirit, showed unto us little shepherd boys where His Spirit is and how He moves. And it touched us all so deeply that

I told Seneca, I don't know if I've had a more powerful emotional experience since the heresy in 1973. But then the, I wasn't at the annual meeting in Seattle, but I heard from the delegates there that God touched them also. As one brother said, there Jesus was in our midst. We could feel his presence. And they rejoiced over

How God showed onto them his will, his might. And so I thought these words of Paul describe those same similar types of experiences for us, that this is what God does to us by his spirit. He says actually in the fourth chapter of the same letter that the kingdom of God

In the fourth chapter of the 20th verse, for the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. So he is, of course, in one aspect dealing with people who have fallen into following gifts and other kinds of errors, errors of the flesh and errors of the spirit. But he also wants to remind them of what he was and how he brought the gospel to their midst.

Paul, as a highly educated man of his time, was great, capable of great oration, as Acts captures for us, and we kept that speech there on Mars Hill. And Luke records there that when he spoke of the resurrection of the dead, some laughed, mocked, but there were those whose hearts were touched and followed him. But then he's, that's why I think he says exactly these words.

I came not with excellency of speech or wisdom declaring unto the testimony of God, for I determined not to know anything among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling. God told Paul when he was in Athens to hold not your peace, don't be silent, but preach the word. For I have many, much people, many believers that I will call, people who I will call into faith in this city.

The city of Corinth was a terribly corrupt harbor city full of all manner of sin and defilement. But God, through the power of His Spirit, touched those hearts, and the congregation was born there by the preaching of the Gospel. And even though later they said of him that his letters are weighty and powerful,

But his speech is weak and his presence contemptible. So when they had fallen from the simplicity of faith, all of a sudden everything was carnal, and they looked at his presence and his speech and forgot what was the power of the words. So the power is not of man, it is of God. That power

One brother said, this summer, the power by which God split the Red Sea for Moses and the children of Israel, by which he saved them from the Egyptians, that is the power that God gives us in his gospel, dear brothers and sisters. We know it. We feel it in our hearts. We all experience when God touches us that we hear the voice of our good Savior. It reminds us, of course, that we are weak and we are sinful and sin corrupt and we need the gospel.

That gospel is still today the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. So I would like to encourage each and every one of you. Lift up your hearts and believe that your sins are forgiven in Jesus' name of blood, unto peace, unto freedom, and unto joy. I ask also for myself, can I believe my many sins in God's name? I desire to believe together with you. In Jesus' name, amen.

Well, first off, I'd like to welcome everyone to our meeting. I know it's not a meeting we've been looking forward to, and I think many of us are here with heavy hearts, so even before we start this meeting, from my own heart, I'd like to have my sins forgiven. So, as Ross mentioned,

Formal meetings, we do have a structure that we need to follow, set in by the bylaws, and it's similar to the annual meeting, but follow as fits within the agenda for the meeting. So our next component here then, after my short welcome there, is a selection of officers. So the board has suggested that I act as chairman, Annette Johnson acts as secretary,

And then Gordy Kumpula and Paul Pellwein act as vote counters. Evan moves that we move forward with that? All in favor? Any opposed? Okay, we can note that it was all in favor.

Is it, oh, too far down is what Chaz was dealing with. Oh, it's actually, the cord was twisted around it. Yeah, well, the cord was twisted around it too, pulling it down. Thank you. John? So I have a flight out at three o'clock. Eugene Keiko will take over moderating.

Yeah, one or shortly thereafter. You know, I have to admit, for the first time in my life, I wrote out a speech. How to intro this, because it was a hard one to put together. So these are what I'd like to just start the meeting with, and then we'll move to discussion.

So this meeting is here as concerns for our brother John and if he should speak. I guess before I go into this, I had a note on this and forgot, is that we are asking that people don't record, as is our tradition with meetings.

We do, we have [Annette] taking notes. This will make sure that what is said in the meeting is captured, but it removes the personal side and allows for freedom. And so that's the request of the board is that nobody records, as I guess has been standard in many of our spiritual meetings in my history. Okay.

I've been asked by a few people for an agenda and a few others to describe the background that has led up to this meeting. I'm not able to provide an agenda, but I trust that God will guide our meeting. As our notice shared, the agenda is to discuss concerns for John and if he should continue to serve as a speaker. Also, two members of the board have expressed concerns about the rest of the board and the other speakers.

So it's hard to know where to begin, but as I look at providing some background, two Bible portions come to mind. First is Matthew 7, verses 16 to 20. These shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles? Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them. And then John chapter 10.

And when he putteth forth his sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. And the stranger they will not follow, but flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers. So first, I'd just like to address, I guess, a falsehood that's been being shared.

It has been stated that in Finland a speaker can only be taken down for serious personal indiscretion that becomes public or a doctrinal error. It's not true and much of what I'm going to read here now is actually from Luther as Luther speaks on this and wrote on this. So this is one of Luther's writings. The hearers have the right to examine and judge a sermon. It goes back to that same text I just read.

And he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. When he hath putteth forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. And a stranger they will not follow, but flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers. In this text, there are two thoughts worthy of note, the liberty of faith and the power to judge.

You know that all soul murderers have proposed to us that what the councils and learned doctors decide and decree is what we should accept and not judge for ourselves whether it is right or not. They have become so certain in the infallibility of the councils and the doctors that they have now established the edict publicly seen that if we do not accept what they say, we are put under the ban.

Now let us take a spear in hand and make a hole in their shield. Yea, their resolutions shall be a spider web, and ye should moreover use upon them the spear which until now they have used upon us, and hold them at its point. Remember well that the sheep have to pass judgment upon that which is placed before them.

They should say, we have Christ as our Lord and prefer his word to the words of any man or to those of the angels of darkness. We want to examine and judge for ourselves whether the Pope, the bishops, and their followers do right or not. For Christ says here that the sheep judge and know which is the right voice and which is not. Now let them come along. Have they decreed anything? We will examine whether it is right

And according to our own judgment, interpret that which is a private affair for each individual Christian, knowing that the authority to do this is not human, but divine. Even the sheep flee from a stranger. No, even the real sheep flee from a stranger and hold to the voice of their shepherd.

Upon this authority, the Gospel knocks all the councils, all the Papist laws to the ground, granting to us that we should receive nothing without judging it, that we have besides the power to judge, and that such judgment stands until the present day. The Papists have taken from us the sword, so that we have not been able to repel any false doctrine, and moreover,

They have by force introduced false teachings among us. If now we take the sword from them, they will be sorry. And we must truly take it, not by force, but by the means of the word, letting go of all else that we have, saying, I am God's sheep, whose word I wish to appropriate to myself. If you will give me that, I will acknowledge you to be a shepherd.

If you, however, add another gospel to this one and do not give me the pure gospel, then I will not consider you a shepherd and will not listen to your voice, for the office of which you boast extends no farther than the word goes.

If we find one to be a shepherd, we should receive him as such. If he is not, we should remove him, for the sheep shall judge the voice of the shepherd. If he does not give us the right kind of pasture, we should bid farewell to such a shepherd, that is, to the bishop, for the hats of pearls and the staff of silver do not make a shepherd or bishop, but rather does the office depend upon his care of the sheep and their pasture.

Therefore, be ye aroused by this passage of scripture to hew to pieces and thrust through everything that is not in harmony with the gospel, for it belongs to the sheep to judge and not to the preachers. You have the authority and power to judge everything that is preached, that and nothing less.

If we have not this power, then Christ vainly said to us in Matthew 7 verse 15, Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. We should not beware if we had not the power to judge, but we are obliged to accept everything they said and preached. So as Luther shared in this sermon, if someone's speaking or causing confusion within the congregation, they should no longer speak.

So you might ask, why now? Why are we having this meeting now and why is it coming up now? It goes back to what I asked, people are asking about that history. You know, as we know in God's kingdom all things happen in God's time and I guess this is God's time for us to have this discussion.

And just a few things that kind of led up to this. Some of John's statements have caused public concern both here and in other congregations. Our obvious congregation divide that we became obvious at the annual meeting. John's message of disagreement at minister's camp where he chose to speak at that point when they asked do people have differing opinions.

John's speech in our recent congregational meeting as well. And many in our congregation have had, the concern many in our congregation have had for John, and then most recently, John's unwillingness to meet with board members to discuss these concerns. As I close this introduction, I share this with love for John and his undying soul.

Many have approached John with love and have been rebuffed. As Paul teaches in 2 Timothy, preach the word, be instant, in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and doctrine. Dear brothers and sisters, this is what many have done. The question of John continuing to speak has been voiced by several in the congregation, and this meeting itself was requested by John and Janelle.

My hope and prayer is that God, is for God to guide our meeting and that John would be able to take care of matters. No matter how these discussions go, the majority of the board agree that John should take a rest from speaking, at least until the core issues impacting God's kingdom today are taken care of. And with that, I guess we open our conversation. I did

I'm going to ask that, one, this is a Minneapolis meeting, and so priority is given to Minneapolis members, which is also why we ask that Minneapolis members sit in the front of the church, so we kind of roped it off, and I see Risto had his hand up, so that helps us control the meeting. So I have Risto, James, and John, but I'm going to give John the first opportunity to speak here.

So we have the mic coming, and then Joan. So the statements that you said, which could be called allegations or very general in nature, we'll have to kind of dig into them a little bit and analyze them.

Point by point, can you flesh them out a little bit? What statements are you referring to? So, are you asking me to try to... I'm asking you. So, to drill into which ones I can... Well, you said statements, so let's find a few. Let's look at them one by one. One by one? Yep. Well, I will just bring up what you said in the last public discussion. Okay, and what did I say? So, there was four things where you chose to speak about what...

Jim Frantti's presentation said, and I'll just go through them. So number one, your response was, after Russ went through his presentation, was, it is not my way to say I agree with something, something very similar to that, and I would say some things differently. For most people, that means I disagree. That's just what it is in society. That's how many people took it, that that was

I said I agreed with Jim Frantti's presentation. I said there's a few places where I would have given a different angle or viewpoint. I said I agreed with it. Actually, John, what you said, it is not my way to say I agree. So we can leave it be. There's no point in arguing. Next point, you spoke on

You spoke on passive binding and that there's no such thing as active binding. That is doctrinally incorrect. Can you explain to me your understanding of the keys? Of what? Can you explain to me, Jared, how you understand the use of the keys? Okay, so when we go, I'll just go to binding. So the key of forgiveness and the key of binding, and we'll just speak, because you chose to speak on binding being only passive.

And what you said is binding is only passive, there's no act of binding, and I'll explain though. The act of binding happens at that point where it's brought to the congregation of somebody who is unrepentant, and it is not actually putting them in unbelief. They are in unbelief, you're right at that point, that passive binding, they are passively bound, absolutely no question. But the key of binding is there to protect the believers as well as an act of love, to

And that person is that unbelief who is claiming to be a believer, and that person is that final act of saying, you are an unbelief, and the congregation recognizes you as an unbeliever. That is the key of binding. As I stated, May 31st, Juhani Uljas in 1979 said in his presentation where he talked about the keys, no believer can take another believer's faith away. Correct.

Now it comes to another person who says, I no longer see you as a... John, okay, we'll move on. You're wrong. I'm going to tell you, this is a doctrinal error on your part. Can we have a gentle discussion? What? Can we have a gentle discussion? Yes, we can, but you're pulling something out of context and you're asking me to explain it, so I'm going to respond. Okay. Okay, so we go to the next point. So what is by name?

According to Juhani Uljas and many other sources that I have, I actually didn't come up with these terms. I got them from Hanna [Nurminen's] theses. And some may raise their eyebrows about Hanna [Nurminen's] theses. She has wrote an article in the newest SRK doctrinal book, which was published last summer, and as a summary of her Grace Line chapter. And several of the authors of that chapter, of that book,

Quoted her as a source in the bibliography. So she is the one who explained it and that's where I got the terms from. So passive binding is a person who is living in sin and disobedience has been reminded many times and eventually comes to the congregation. That person has already found themselves in their sins and the congregation then publicly acknowledges it. So in that sense, it would be passive binding. That person has already found themselves

And the congregation is just acknowledging the situation. So it's a metaphorical term, a descriptive term. Not anything I came up with. Okay, well I'll just save that thesis. She asked that it would not be used from a spiritual perspective. Okay, next point. So next point. And I don't know exactly what you said about women's health. And I know you've seen these points because I laid them out for Janelle.

You spoke about women's health. I don't remember what you said, per se. I know what you've said in other meetings, but it caused concern among especially those of childbearing age. What I will say you have said in other meetings, because I remember one very clearly, is that you said a woman's health is between a mother and her doctor, period, unquote. And that's the point where I told you that when you were

Jouko chose to respond to it, but what I'm going to say is that those that were much more in the childbearing years, my days have most likely disappeared. Who knows, we could have another one or two, but I don't remember. It wasn't a new message to me, but I'm assuming that's what the message was, was that we remove the congregation and the Holy Spirit from that discussion and just leave it to the mother and the doctor.

A mother's got a serious health issue. Okay, it's potentially a life or death situation. What does she do? So, John, it is not the question of a mother has a serious health issue. I will venture to say that there's not a mother here by the time she's had four children that she's been told by a doctor she should not have more children. I've heard our doctors say that many times.

It's very much, at that point, very much permission to go do something that is against God's word. That is the message that is received. So don't listen to your doctor. Consult with your doctor, pray, talk to others. There are many mothers here who have been told they shouldn't have more children straight out by their doctors. I know some of them. And yet, they didn't just listen to their doctor. And when you say it is between a mother and her doctor, period,

That removes the Holy Spirit and all of those other pieces. I don't know if you believe it that way, but that's what people hear. Can I describe a scenario? Sure. This is back in 1991. I was here visiting from Finland. And there was one, I was called into a little gathering.

I was one of the three. And there was one American minister. And the scenario was such that a mother had a pulmonary embolism. An embolism is a moving clot, different from a thrombolysm, which is a stationary clot. I'm going back to my anatomy class of 1995. But anyways, a pulmonary embolism after childbirth.

Of the fifth child, 20, late 20s in age, the embolism moved from the leg, got lodged in the heart, and two-thirds of the lung got destroyed. So the mother had to be on very strong, plug-pinning medicine for the rest of her life. And any pregnancy would result in a ruined fetus or a deformed fetus.

So the mother is young, the husband is young, and any pregnancy would be a very serious situation. And if they wanted to have normal sexual activity, they could quit medicine, but that would be like taking a huge risk, life threatening risk, potentially. So they visited with one minister,

And the minister said, the only solution is to live in separate bedrooms the rest of your married life, 29 years old. And so then three ministers were visiting from Finland and I was pulled into the meeting not knowing anything about it. And so the local minister said, well, what are the options? And they said, well, there could be some,

And the local minister said, well, let's bring it to the LLC board and let them decide. And his brother said, that's not for the LLC board to decide. It's between the mother, the doctor, and herself, and God, and her conscience.

She is the one, on the last day, who is going to have to answer and stand before God. Not even her and her husband, but her alone, on the last day, will have to stand before God. And so, I could give you more details, but I'll stop here. But, what I'm saying, what I said on May 31st, is the new pastor down in Phoenix said, a mother doesn't have to throw herself in front of a train

A very recent SRK minister said that when a mother is taking care of her health, and that's a general term, it's not because I'm tired, it's because I'm fatigued and stressed out with the number of children I have, but serious health questions in question, he said it is not birth control. But if a mother is doing something in order to spend more time in the Grand Cayman, then that is birth control.

And I'll say that example is, for me, is not what we were talking about and what people heard you say. When you make a statement like it's between a mother and her doctor, period, that is just a very different situation. Yeah, I don't know that I said that. So, what's that? Go ahead. Do you have, just... Sure you can.

Most of you know me that I normally don't speak up at a meeting, mostly because I'm afraid I'm gonna trip over my tongue and maybe say the wrong thing. But we've been taught since we were real little. I remember in preschool, teachers teaching and I also taught in kindergarten for many years that the Heavenly Father knows when even one hair falls off our head. I'm sure every one of us had heard that. So don't you believe that

The Heavenly Father knows the condition of this mother who is very ill. Her body is ill. The Heavenly Father knows that. And we've been taught since the time we were young. We're old enough to understand that the Heavenly Father allows conception. So by saying that it's between the mother and the doctor, no matter how sick this woman is,

The Heavenly Father will not allow conception. If he could close the womb of Jacob's Rachel and close Abraham's, Sarah's womb until she was old, don't we believe that God can also have control to close the womb? I will give a personal experience. After our ninth baby, my wife ended up in the hospital.

She had blood clots. She happened to have her gallbladder taken out only nine or 11 days after. So those blood clots were so bad, one of her legs started swelling up real bad, so she was in the hospital. I had the same concern. I actually asked a minister from Finland who was visiting here, you know, what would you do? And he just gave me an answer that well.

Whenever the urge comes, just take a cold shower. So I spoke with my wife knowing that she already knows the answer. I says, do you believe that God gives children, that's the way I was brought up, that he allows conception

And of course she agreed, yes. And I told her, I says, we really don't have anything to worry about because the doctor said if she gets pregnant, you're gonna kill your wife. That's exactly his words, that she's gonna lose her life if she gets pregnant. But I had faith that the Heavenly Father, and my wife had faith, even as little as it was, that he would protect us. And he protected us. He closed my wife's womb.

We continue to have the same relations as we always had in the past. He closed her womb until her body was healed, and we had three more children. He did that to strengthen our weak faith. That's why he did that. And I believe today, any mother, no matter how sick she is, the Heavenly Father knows, when he knows one hair falls off of our head, when he knows that, he will know the body is weak.

And Kent, it's his will, John. It's not the doctor. It's not of ourselves. It's between the Heavenly Father, whether he wants to allow conception or not. And we even see that today. One family was married 20 years. We can't say that they didn't have children because they didn't know what was happening. But after 20 years of being barren, God opened her womb.

And allow three wonderful children to be blessed with. So the Heavenly Father is in control here. Not man, not mother, not doctor. He allows this to happen. Send that back to John. But then on the other side, a mother does not need to defy death.

Nobody has said, John, that a mother needs to be a martyr or go to any of the holidays, but to ignore what the words like is between a mother and her doctor, period. And that mother has the Holy Spirit, pray full hearts to the God, the Heavenly Father. Yes, but when you say period, you remove the Holy Spirit. Yeah, you're adding the period. No, you said it down here.

The question is the confusion around continual forgiveness. That has been discussed and when we try to drill down into what does this continual forgiveness mean, it comes to grace. But the message that people hear whether you believe it or not is freedom to sin.

The gospel gives us freedom from sin. The message that is heard from many people is freedom to sin. That is the concern without those terms, and freedom to sin is not correct. And who's coming to that conclusion, freedom to sin? You know, that's the message that many people hear from your words. I'm not going to stand up and give you names. I haven't heard one person who believes that way. That's come back to my ears personally. Well, that's the message that is shared. That's what people hear.

And many people are no longer comfortable coming to you and asking those questions. Well, they're free to come anytime. I'm a gentle, open-minded, friendly person. I welcome any calls. Brother in faith. Phone lines are always open. But on the flip side, you could say that

Okay, maybe we can move on. Are those all the questions? So what about the minister's camp? I wasn't at minister's camp. When Mike gets to one of the speakers, they can speak to him. So what did you state in your introduction? I said, John's message of disagreement at minister's camp. Okay, what did I disagree with? You chose to speak up when they said, is there anybody of a different mind? That's the time you chose to speak up. So what did Ray Waaraniemi say at that point?

I wasn't there, John, but the message that came back from many is that that's when you chose to speak up, which in and of itself is very disconcerting. Is Ray here? We called him a couple nights ago to ask exactly what he said. Ray Waaraniemi said, is he here? I don't see Ray.

So Ray Waaraniemi said that if they were going to give this opportunity, say there's 30 people on the list to want to speak. And the next person would be number 31, 32, 33. And this was Saturday afternoon, four o'clock. And in order to get through 30 to 31, then that would have been, maybe the end of camp would have been there and no chance to speak. So he chose to open up the opportunity

Anyone, he says, if someone has something that they want to speak to Jim Frantti's presentation, that maybe you were of a different mind, or if you want to say something about continual forgiveness, or if you have something you generally want to say, now would be the time you can come to the front of the line. So there are a couple of ors in there that he added, which are conditional. Feel free, we'll willingly listen to

To any statement of any viewpoint. And he said it was such a loving invitation, I thought that how could a person not welcome this opportunity to say something. And what did I say? I read two statements on continual forgiveness. Well, the first one wasn't even, didn't even use the term continual forgiveness. It was continual grace. The second one was continual forgiveness from [SRK] Summer Services 2000.

17, and that's all I said. Okay, like I said, I wasn't there. The message that came back from many was that's when you chose to speak. For the record, I'm clarifying it. Okay. So, I would say then I can move to list. Risto is next. And we are, this is limited to Minneapolis members at this point, so I'll put down those who aren't Minneapolis members, but I may not call on you.

Risto, did you get the mic? I'm just, uh, I don't even know what to say. I mean, the tone of this meeting is unreal. It's sad. And Jared, many times people have voiced concerns about you and your behavior, and it definitely, it's showing. Jared, I like you, but

Getting upset and anger and whatnot is not a fruit of faith. I've never seen John upset. John has always talked about people and put them in the best possible light. As far as my conversations with him, I can't talk about

Other peoples. I know when John came back from Finland from his studies, he was put into speaking. Even as a young kid, I heard about these issues between John and Keith and Russell. And for 25 years, the same old story over and over again.

Backing his understandings. Not one of his understandings from what he has talked about has been contradicted by the believers there in Finland. The speakers specifically. I don't know what to say and I don't even know why

Why you gotta bring up that the board is recommending something. This is up to the congregation, not up to the board. And the congregation chooses its servants and also takes its servants down. It is not the responsibility of the board. The board needs to be working on the day-to-day scheduling and making sure that the spiritual needs are taken care of as far as

Who's teaching Sunday school? Who's teaching Bible class? Who's speaking? Those kind of items, that is what we ask the board to do. We don't ask the board to take and start abusing people. And that, Russell, Keith, Jared, there's been nothing short of abuse from each one of you. And I'm sorry, I have to say that.

I'm sorry you believed that way. Let me talk. Thank you. The kingdom of God is said to be righteousness, peace, and joy. What peace and joy is there in constantly, constantly badgering somebody? Look at Ken Hopla.

He would read from scriptures when questions would be asked. And people would be like, well, what was the point of that? Well, what more do you want? Do you want man's answer or do you want God's answer? And I will tell you right now that the answers are found in scriptures and they don't come from Russell, they don't come from Keith, and they do not come from the LLC.

I don't know what pedestal you guys have decided to put yourself on, but you know what? You guys need to be a little more careful, okay? This is up to the congregation, it's not up to you. Thank you. That's exactly what we're doing, is we're bringing it to the congregation. So next would be [James Lehtola].

It comes to mind right away when just listening to this exchange between Jared and John. The Bible says, as we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are the household of faith. It saddens my heart, what I've seen here, it saddens my heart in the years that I've been asked to serve

At the board level, for the congregation, the congregation has to discern. There have been lots of difficult meetings at the board level. Lots of things that should have been brought to the congregation already a long time ago. This kind of exchange that we saw here has been,

Children of God want to discuss matters as far as, as long as it takes. The will of God, God's will turns very slowly. He wants everybody to understand, but he wants us to go to his word. And if we don't go to his word, then we err.

When these discussions concerning John have come up at the board meeting, what are your concerns towards John? There have been admonitions to the board or exhortations to the board for John and Keith and Russell to get together with an outside help, somebody that's neutral and not with this, that knows this situation. That has not been,

John, or taken advantage of. There's this vague statement made that, well, it's by Keith. He says, John and I have spiritual differences, or I have concerns towards John. To try to get that out clear at the board level has been impossible. In fact, at this moment, I would ask Keith and both Russell

What are your spiritual concerns? And be open with the congregation. And also that opening statement or that announcement that was read to the congregation. It is true the board, the majority of the board felt that this matter, that they wanted to recommend that John be taken down from serving. And there was two of us

I think that these matters need to be very clear, and as Jared said in his opening statement, that it's been said that it needs to be doctrinal errors or serious, fleshly errors, which is, if I understand correctly, that's how it's been said in our sister organization in Finland. Then I would also, at this time, because of the

The statement that Jared made that board members have tried to visit with John, I notice that that's not the case. John would have visited one-on-one, but there's a reluctance to visit one-on-one with him. Secondly, there have been numerous attempts by outsiders to try to help the situation concerning John and Keith. Keith has not been willing to do so. John has been willing to take part in those types of discussions.

Until we get to that point that these matters can be openly talked about, we're not going to get any resolution to this. And at this time, all I can say is that the congregation needs to help in this matter. And if the congregation voice speaks, we need to listen to what that voice says

But that voice which is spoken in God's kingdom is always based on the word of God. There will be lots of things to talk to, but my own personal observation, what I've noticed here is that there's a conflict between John and Keith, and from what I understand, over the years, it started almost immediately.

Only Keith and John know if this matter would have been addressed right from the beginning instead of hashed around at board level. I don't think it would be at this point, but obviously I trust that this is meant to come to this point. But I feel that what the problem in American Christianity, especially in this situation, is that the question is around the righteousness of faith.

Luther talks about the righteousness of faith as being the first article of faith. He says that when the righteousness of faith is understood, then all the other articles of faith fall into place, that they don't even become a question. And I firmly feel that this matter today, this discussion today, should turn towards God's word and to what is the righteousness of faith and how are we justified and how are we sanctified. We're not going to get anywhere if it turns into a

Okay, so I'll start out with Jared's comment that it's not true that a minister can be put down over doctrine or some gross whatever bad thing. Doctrine means the teaching of our belief. So I would believe that the minister has to have the correct belief.

The correct teaching from the prophets to the congregation. So I would believe that's pretty important, that we need to have the correct doctrine. And I suppose I'll reiterate, because I did question both John and Keith about if somebody from the outside has three or more times approached them to do this.

Because I know it was my recommendation at the annual meeting that these two get together. John said, yes, three people have, gave their names, but I don't feel the need to give their names. And, you know, said absolutely he wouldn't visit. I asked Keith, this is going on two weeks, he's never answered me. I heard that he never had time, but he didn't give me his answer, so he could give it here.

Let's see, what was my other note here? Oh, and then the issue on the continual forgiveness. I guess I have a problem or I have a hard time understanding how because I was at the meeting where the term continual forgiveness came out.

It was not John Lehtola who brought this out. It was his brother, Gary Lehtola, who read Olavi Voittonen's presentation from the speaker's meeting in Finland. And [Finnish word] means continuous, continually sin, sin and forgiven. So Gary translated that, or whoever translated the article directly from what Olavi Voittonen spoke at the meeting.

So this has been pinned on John, and John is causing the confusion. So that Wednesday night here in Minneapolis Bible class, he went through and he explained how Jesus Christ is pure, we cannot stain Jesus Christ, we own Jesus Christ, therefore when God looks down at us through his Son,

So we are pure and sinful simultaneously. Therefore, because we know in Jesus Christ who is pure, our sins are forgiven. But, our feet become stained along the way, and then we put sin away. Because that can take our faith away, the sin that bothers us.

I just have a letter to read. Okay, so I feel the diminishment of God's word is very prevalent here in Christianity today. Ones have been told, Bible, that won't get us to heaven. The Bible, which is God's word for the believer, is the highest authority in our life. It's the ABCs. The Bible teaches us of salvation. For the world it is to maintain a moral society.

Luther says about the Bible, we will be living in hell. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and God was the Word. John 1, 1. Jesus bought off Satan with the Scriptures. Also, when we are in the need of His Word, He opens the understanding to us. So doctrine and theology, some are sick of hearing this,

But doctrine is the teaching of our belief. Theology means God's word. Theo is God, theology is word. So why and how has this crept into living Christianity that believers who own faith are sick of hearing the teaching of God's word? Are these just words carelessly thrown around to belittle one who has and feels comfort in studying God's word? Also, the term continual forgiveness does not kill the faith.

In fact, the opposite of it is law-mindedness. And this is a quote from family. This is Christ's redemption work on the cross. If we don't believe upon that, what do we believe? If someone wanted to live in sin, they will. Within this term of living in grace every moment, continual forgiveness, they will live in sin. Whether they've heard that or not, it's their conscience.

That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? This is Romans 21, 5 and 6. God forbid, how shall we that one are dead to sin live any longer therein? We cannot control others' thoughts or deeds. I feel all this talk

His teaching causing confusion and diminishing the reading of God's word. But he answered and said, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4, 4. To be warned from the pulpit, if we read the Bible, we might get too much knowledge and wisdom. And maybe confused to lose our faith, God's word also says,

All scriptures is breathed out of God, out by God, in profitable teaching for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent and equipped for every good work. God encourages us to read his word. And that was Timothy 3, 16 through 17. Thou hast known the holy scriptures as a child to make thee wise unto salvation. Timothy 2, 15.

God's Word, the Bible, teaches the ABCs of faith and is the highest authority in our life. Okay, so these are kind of digs at John. We don't need to hear or read Greek or Hebrew, Hebrew or Greek. Sometimes I can admit I've gotten a little tired of hearing that. But the Bible was written originally in Greek and Hebrew. And one who has studied theology, God's Word,

He has learned these languages, so sometimes they come easier to him, and we've had ministers here from Finland who have used these different Greek words. There's nothing wrong with it, there's no sin in it. I feel like there's been so much finger pointing at John that God also says, for with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged,

And with what measure ye met, it should be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or wilt thou say to thy brother, let me pull out the mote of thine eye, behold the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam of thine own eye, and then thou shalt clearly cast out the mote of thine own, of thy brother's eye.

When Elmer decided that he was perhaps going part-time pastor or retirement, I'm not sure, I wasn't here at the time, and made the request or proposed that since congregation has blessed John's studies in Finland of theology, that John take Elmer's position as full-time pastor, Finland saw the great need for a pastor of theology for American Christianity. And many Finnish brothers have said what a great blessing and a gift this has been to American Christianity.

Why can't this not be accepted amongst American brothers? For you're not carnal for which there is among you envying and strife and divisions. Are you not carnal and walk as men? Corinthians 3.3. Only ones are fighting continual fault continuously. I believe in society today this is considered abuse.

Spiritual and mental. This is so wrong according to God's word, and also the laws of the land. It has to come to a stop. I feel God is very displeased over all this. In the meantime, when they were gathered together, an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trod one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples, first of all, beware ye the leaving of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

For there's nothing covered that shall not be revealed, nothing hid that shall not be known. Therefore, whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light, and that which ye have spoken in the ear, in closets, shall be proclaimed upon the whole stuff. I feel that Satan has been so successful in teaching all that they don't need to turn or study God's word, that many are blinded to this behavior. Also, man,

And then I just, I have one question myself is, since there has been so much concern over John, I am just wondering why when we've had SRK brothers here and SFC brothers here, maybe it's been every year, every other year, there's been meetings, why has John

Not been invited out of love from the brothers here that the concern is. How come he hasn't been invited to these meetings so that John could see where his air is, of his ways? We could all understand. I understand also that they have biweekly and weekly, LLC has biweekly and weekly meetings with SRK. Has John been invited to these meetings, and if he hasn't,

How come he has not? That's all I have to say. Thanks Joan. Next would be Evan Siljander. That's up here.

So I'll be speaking from my own opinion here this morning. Just going back to June here, things changed for me quite a bit in June. Here in Minneapolis, I went up to a group of like-minded John people after church in the morning to visit with them, and one by one, they all walked away from me. Two days later, I was in a depressive state and had a time

And it feels like part of my community has been torn from me. I look around and I see these group of like-minded people gathering together after morning church and after the discussions are closing down the house here. This has put me into a state of... Is that okay? Just cut out there for a second.

This has put me into a state of grief that I've been dealing with since then and pushed me to the edge of my faith and also to the edge of my mental health. It's had my doctor's office calling to check up on me and see how I'm doing. So I'll kind of go through and give a timeline of kind of how I see things. I'd heard that there had been some maybe incorrect understandings.

And then I saw that Rockford had scheduled a discussion in January, so I went to that discussion because I wanted to see what was going on. And at that meeting, I became concerned about John, what he was speaking about this continual forgiveness, and he went on and on and on about it. And then at the end, he did like two sentences, kind of,

Doing caveats on it, but it doesn't mean you're always safe. It doesn't mean you don't need forgiveness, but that was like the last two sentences. So I was concerned about this. It was a room of 400 people. I spoke to John about it after. He did say he was rebutting part of the presentation. And it seemed, in my opinion, you know,

People afterwards to say, hey, maybe we could fine tune this year. And so I did speak to John about that one week later here in Minneapolis, about the Continual Forgiveness, and I was alarmed at his boldness, because he kept repeating he would go to his grave with that, he'd go to his grave with that, the Continual Forgiveness, and I was, I guess I would expect a speaker brother to speak more in a humble manner.

So I did find that concerning. And then I asked him about our congregation had unity, unity in the Holy Spirit. And I kept asking him, and for the life of me, I can't figure if I got a straight answer or not. And I did talk to him about it once again after that, saying, well, John, I don't think I got an answer from you on if we have unity here. And then he talked some more, and then I just became confused at that point.

And about that time, James Lehtola came up. And the discussion was kind of ending, so then it kind of ended at that point. There wasn't a discussion that you might challenge on. Then we come along here to March at the annual meeting. I saw from what I saw at the nomination of board members that there was an attempt by these like-minded people to take over our church board.

In my opinion, there's three of these like-minded people nominated, plus James Lehtola re-nominated to the board to make four. And with John on the board, they make five, plus a possible another sixth person that's already on the board. And then after that, at a following board meeting, they tried to replace their chairman. So the congregation's already spoken here.

They tried to take over our war, in my opinion. And then we had our congregation, and when I saw that I became alarmed and I wanted to speak up, but I knew if I spoke up, nobody would maybe know what I meant. And so towards the end of our meeting, somebody brought up the issues, and then the congregation asked for these meetings.

And they asked for former board members and ministers to be invited. So that's why those invites went out. Some people expressed concern that we're selectively inviting people, but the congregation asked for that at their annual meeting. And then so at the May congregation discussion, John did talk about birth control.

He did talk about it being between a woman and her doctor, period, what Jared recollected, and it was the same thing I heard. No mention of God there. He mentioned binding was a sin. And then again, he mentioned picking at presentations. I mean, if I agree with something, you know, 80, 90%, you know, I'd probably leave it late.

You know, I'd be more concerned about somebody causing confusion or alarm at presentation that might have something that's just a little bit off. There's a time and a place, and a room of 400 people is not the place. And I spoke about John, with John, after that meeting also again, and someone else came up and asked him something,

It's a good discussion so far, and then all of a sudden I became alarmed at something else John said that I couldn't remember what it was afterwards. Somewhere around this time I spoke to John about Minneapolis' decision to have this discussion about how to keep your faith.

And that the Rockford discussion wasn't used. John had said that he decided we weren't using Rockford's discussion multiple times. However, I was at that board meeting, and John hadn't made that decision. It was an open board discussion, and one of the members on the board that seems somewhat like-minded with John agreed with my interpretation that John did not decide that.

And from my impression at that board meeting, everybody that wanted to talk was able to talk. I've heard that sometimes people are told they can't, but it was open discussion. Every board member that was there seemed like they were able to speak freely. And it seemed like I felt good being at that board meeting. I felt like the board was operating in love.

But when John was sitting here proclaiming multiple times that he decided that we weren't going to use the rock for discussion, it felt like he was boasting and puffed up. And I would also agree that, you know, that would, along with his boldness, you know, that's not a good thing to have. So I moved along into June. This is what I opened up with.

I went up to a group of these like-minded people that were meeting in the back of the church. And when I walked up, they each walked away one by one. And I was left there standing by myself. The first person that left, right when I walked up, was James Lehtola. I mean, I couldn't even get a high out of the guy who was leaving so fast. These people weren't leaving because they were leaving the church.

They're leaving because I walked up, in my opinion. They walked to other places to talk to other people. They left because they knew where I stood from the prior church discussions. And then later on in the summer, when the Finn group came to Minneapolis, I was downstairs for coffee lunch. And again, there was James Lehtola that joined a group of like-minded people sitting at a coffee table, talking. Talking that it'd have to come from the congregation.

Presumably talking about the re-ruling job. And at that point, James Lehtola saw me standing there, and he changed the discussion to be about someone's health. I spoke to other people about this, and they said they've had the same experience. When they walk up to a group of these like-minded people, they stop talking, or they change the topic. And one of those people had left this congregation.

And then later in the summer in one of John's sermons, he spoke about somebody not using the selected text for the day. Multiple times he mentioned this. I was talking to one of the old speaker brothers and they said this is something new within the last 25 years that they have these selected texts. And the person there said, you know, my impression

From what they were saying is that John was criticizing that minister for not using the selected text for that day. And they thought, so what if they didn't use it? They could use another text if they wanted. And that they wouldn't be coming to another one of his sermons. They didn't feel that there was any food to be given there. I've heard this from other people, including a couple of people that have switched to another congregation that they left in part because of John and then other, there may have been other,

Incorrect understandings that they felt were, that some people had in the congregation. And then we saw at the last discussion that a former board member who spoke up here that said that his wife was always questioning why are you always supporting John, that at that point he was now concerned with John.

And I also recall that it has been mentioned that John has received a lot of caretaking and has been loved by other board members. And I've seen that in my impression from talking to board members that they have been operating in love. And I'd probably be one of the first people that if I didn't feel that they were operating in love, I'd be speaking up about it. And I haven't got that impression or feeling.

It also seems that John's sermons are attracting people that have wrong understandings, dyed hair. Some of that has libertarian viewpoint on gay marriage, letting people do what they want. It also seems that, my impression, that they want everything straight from the Bible, not necessarily having the Holy Spirit speak to them, and that they want to have their own understanding,

Libertarian view on gay marriage and dyed hair is two examples that I know of specifically. As the minister mentioned at summer services where people are analyzing scripture like this and picking sermons here and there and pieces from this and pieces from that, that they have lost this childlike faith.

It seems that we now may have people coming here that have itching ears, as far as when it's like places like Howard Lake and Albertville and beyond, where they have closer congregations. And there is a groupie of these people, and it has been confirmed, of these like-minded people.

I mean, you know, I think that's something that's not helpful, people gathering in groups like this. That group should be disbanded. You know, let's say if these people are lost and they have no desire other than to pick at things or repent it, you know, it's best for the rest of us that they would leave. It seems many times that they're at odds with their board, but we put them in this position.

Their congregation spoke loudly at our last annual meeting. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people have issues with authority. It could even be with God's authority, I don't know. I mean, that's just some of my impressions. And as far as this discussion goes, I would just suggest people pay attention to who's speaking here. You'll probably see multiple people from the same family speaking up with the same message. And so I take that with a grain of salt.

You have like 10 people all from the same family saying the same thing. It might seem like that's what the congregation is saying, but it's just one family. So I think that's an important point. And I wouldn't be surprised if people try to discredit what I've been saying here also. And I did write these notes down because there's no way I would... I don't have a memory like John's, so I wouldn't be able to... I would have missed half of them. But I was just writing them down as I laid in bed last night.

I think Simon next. [unclear] I think Simon next would be Patrick [Keranen]. I would first ask that

I think there's multiple parts that I want to say, but first of all I would encourage anyone who would wish to speak today that you do so with a heart that has equal

Love and concern for everyone in this congregation regardless of whether you feel that this is unfair towards John or that this is something that needs to occur. We need to make sure that we keep all of our congregation members in mind that Jared Russell

Keith and John and Janelle, we all want to make it to heaven and we all want all of us to make it to heaven. So, that's that point. Secondly, it's my understanding that the reason we would have a meeting like this is to be allowed to raise specific concerns about what

John, in this case, has said or believes and to be able to individually, each of us hear what John thinks and says on these matters to eliminate any sort of confusion or the message being changed as it passes from mouth to mouth. One of the few negatives of being in such a close-knit and large group is that rumors do fly.

And it's not done deliberately or maliciously. It's just communication as people relay stories. They do change subtly. And I think, so if John says that he believes, as I just heard him say, that the issue of birth control is not

Obviously we don't believe in birth control, but it is between a woman and a doctor and God, then that's what he believes. I don't think we can tell him that he believes otherwise if he's telling us that's how he believes. So, if we're not in a position, if a person is not in a position to accept what John is saying, are his beliefs now, here, today,

Then are you in a position to accept what John says or his beliefs at any time, or have you already made up your mind before John speaks that what he believes is wrong? So my encouragement to everyone here would be to not rely on others and what others have said, but instead rely on what

We hear today from John, and is that consistent with our faith? Because that's what we want to know, is John's beliefs consistent with our faith? And if they are, then any other issues that might be around would either be issues of personality or perhaps communication on John's point, where he's just not communicating clearly.

My suggestion is that we do try to keep this about where we feel John has strayed and does John actually, what does he truly feel, what are his words about these subjects so that we can all hear them. Thanks Patrick. Next would be Dennis Johnson.

Patrick, you said a lot of really nice, comforting words and thoughts and I actually feel pretty fortunate that you spoke before I had an opportunity to share some thoughts because I agree with so much of what you said. But I was just, I've never really spent

Much of any time thinking about women's health. How many women have had a hysterectomy or had any kind of doctor affect their reproductive organs? It's just something that I have never really felt any... I don't think I'm qualified to even

People who speak on that, and I think a lot of men perhaps have had prostate cancer and reproductive organs of men have maybe been removed or they've been, you know, that aspect of men's health. I don't know if that's discussed. I haven't been in any of the board meetings or minister meetings and listening in on reproductive organs of men, but just thinking about what Glenn said,

Glenn's very nice words, childlike understanding, and God knows us and knows every hair that drops from our head. You know, it just kind of dawned on me that if Glenn was giving women advice about their reproductive organs, you know, Glenn, correct me if I'm wrong, but Glenn would state that God will take care of you and shut the womb

Based off what Glenn said, there wouldn't be any women here that have ever had a hysterectomy. Maybe Glenn's right, maybe he's wrong, I don't know. Would there be fewer women here today? I can't, only God knows. And so, on one hand, Glenn had some good words spoken, but I'm assuming, I have no clue on what

How many women here have had a hysterectomy or have some kind of health issue with their reproductive organ? But it's not my business. On the last day, I think John explained that if somebody, actually if they have a desire to not have children, and that's their desire, what they do

Whether they get a hysterectomy or not, it's all what's in the heart. I don't know what man or group of men have authority. Obviously, Glenn worked well for him and his family, his wife, and I am happy for that. I think I've said enough about this.

Reproductive part of women, but it seems like it's kind of a hot topic. But moving on to my understanding of Christians, us believers, me, and all of us, that denying our Lord and Savior, not believing that he died for your sins, I can't help but think that if somebody doesn't believe that,

If Jesus died for their sins, they've denied Christ. I don't want to go down that road too aggressively either because we all have doubts, but if we don't believe that Jesus died for our sins, that's a sad situation. When we hear the audible spoken words that you can believe all your sins forgiven in Jesus' name in blood, it's a comfort, it supports, it strengthens our faith.

Now if we've denied our Lord and Savior, now we're in a situation where we inevitably have to experience new birth. And new birth is a gift of having faith. If the faith is gone, then spiritually we're dead and the new man isn't in us and we're consumed by the old man. So I just think that believing that Jesus died for our sins throughout our life

Every day, every moment is what we long to do and we need to look to Christ and believe that he died for our sins. We have something on our mind and every time I hear the audible gospel, it strengthens my faith. And I'm assuming that no one here believes that they fall out of faith and then in faith and out of faith and in faith. So I think we continually believe that Jesus died for our sins.

Thanks, Dennis. Next would be Kathy Helmke. Kathy's next to Paul. Once again, I'm going to open my big mouth. The song we sang, I think it was 366, verse 2, really drove home to me how

I have been impatient to get these matters resolved, and I'd like to have that forgiven. But also, I need to disagree with the statement that the board is not elected to guide our spiritual matters. I know they need to help in the day-to-day operations, but I also think they are the caretakers

All of our spiritual needs, and if there's wrong on their part or our part, it needs to be resolved. And I'm not sure where all I agree or disagree with John, but the thing that troubles me is there's no humbleness, no desire to say,

I would like to be shown. If I'm wrong, I would like to be shown. I would like to be in the care of God's kingdom and have my matters taken care of. I haven't heard that at all. And I have also heard people say the gospel isn't preached. Somebody from another congregation in another state told me about how they were troubled or somebody they knew were troubled.

That he didn't ever preach the gospel. I enjoy John's sermons. They nourish my mind, but they don't nourish my soul. Thanks, Kathy. Next would be Keith. Well, first of all, brothers and sisters,

I want to remember the beautiful words of the songs that approach one another in love. First of all, just to ask if I can believe all of my sins. No, it's forgiven. Well, sin's forgiven to his name, precious blood.

These are questions, and they're fair questions, and I want to try to be open with the congregation as I have tried in previous meetings, as I have tried in board meetings and in conversations. First of all, I'll just touch on a couple of things that were said in some speeches here.

And not go into much detail. I feel concerned about the understanding that Risto brought out about the position of the board and the congregation. The board is part of the congregation, and I agree with what my sister Kathy said, that there is a spiritual role, and that's the most important part of the board's work. And of course,

Arranging services and gatherings of God's children is part of that spiritual work. But there's also this spiritual work in the board to consider the spiritual needs, concerns of the congregation and try to help, along with the ministers, to guide and shepherd, be as

Shepherds under the chief shepherd, the Lord Jesus, doing the work of God's kingdom. I would like to say also that there are very direct accusations towards me and Russell and Jared regarding our concerns about John, as if we are the only ones

That have concerns, and we are the ones that are driving these concerns. I can say that I have served on the Minneapolis board since about 19, or early 80s, let's just leave it that way. And the concerns that have been raised have been raised by

Board members over the years, ministers over the years who have been part of our congregation and have done their service and moved on to other congregations. These concerns are not by any means the concerns only of mine or of Jared's or of Russell's. And I want to openly say that because if they were only my concerns,

I would be very timid in speaking about them. And so I feel it's just not right. And I know that there are people that are even closer to John that share the concerns. Then in response to Joni's speech about the

Meetings that the SRK, SFC, LLC has, we have every other year a meeting of the three central organizations. And those meetings have been attended largely by those that have served in the central organizations, staff members, board members, and so forth, from all of the organizations.

There hasn't been a general invitation to attend those meetings just for the sake of doing the work of the organizations in a manageable fashion. We don't have biweekly Skype meetings with SRK. Individual employees have Skype meetings with their counterparts in Finland, but we don't have

And so, that's principally the answer to that. They've been meetings between central organizations, and for the most part, about the organizing the work. And of course, in recent times, we've needed to discuss these spiritual matters together with the Finnish brothers. And I think we have always discussed spiritual matters together with the Finnish brothers.

And so that's basically the answer and the topic has not been John. Yes, in recent times when these concerns have become more public, John's name certainly has come up. But that has not been the topic, the central topic of discussion. And I see Eric is here, he can speak to that if I didn't explain

And if someone has more discussion or more question about this, I would suggest they talk to Jim Frantti, the LLC board chairman. Then Joni addressed the fact that there's been attempts to individually visit with me and John with a neutral or outside party.

Well, there's many aspects to these discussions, these suggestions that have been made. And I have been very open to visiting with the brothers that have been involved in these matters, that are aware of the matters, that have been together, we've discussed them. But to start thinking that we can, in some way,

To explain all of these discussions that have taken place on the Minneapolis board and amongst the speakers, John and I as two individuals can explain it to one other individual or two other individuals that have no connection to these matters at all. I think that it's an odd request. And I've been open to visiting, but

I feel that the visiting needs to be visited in the context of the discussions that have happened. And so, when Joan asked me in a text about this question, I said that I'm not going to get into discussing confidential matters through text or with her about how these discussions have come about, how they have not come about.

And there seems to be this thought that I'm not willing to visit with John. I would say this, that I'm weak. I'm weak and poor and timid in bringing up my concerns. And I accept the criticism for that. But we have had years of meetings and discussions in smaller and larger circles about these matters.

It isn't that anything is hidden between John and myself as to what we feel. But I would ask this question, why is the congregation troubled? Why is the congregation troubled about John's service? Why is the congregation divided

Sermons should feed and instruct and call unbelievers to repentance. But we've already heard here that members have said it's hard to go to church and Bible class to listen when John is serving. Why is that the case? And I can say this, that other congregations are becoming increasingly uncomfortable about calling John to serve.

Can one serve without the trust of the congregation? Regardless of how you feel about matters, can one serve without the trust of the congregation? And that's not only the Minneapolis congregation, but the congregation of God. As Jared quoted in the beginning of the meeting, when the voice of the Good Shepherd

We hear the voice. When matters are right, the sheep hear the voice. Some have said that the sermons that John has spoken do not answer their spirit. Sermons either answer the spirit or they don't. One concern that I've had that I feel is central

Is that it feels like John has been battling against law-mindedness for years. He often speaks about the 70s and the heirs of the 70s. He often speaks about law-minded heresies. I wonder, what is he battling against? It's been difficult sometimes to discuss

The dangers of sin, because it seems like the response is Christian freedom. We've tried to discuss some things over the years. Of course, it's important, and I've appreciated the fact that John has spoken about Christian freedom. But I feel like there's been, it's been difficult to sometimes speak about

Matters and concerns when we hear a different message from our shepherd. And much of what I'm saying I've said at board meetings, I've said to John, it's not new. I feel like there's an emphasis on love and grace to the point that the

Righteousness of life is not spoken of or very rarely spoken of. Another concern that I've had is how John views God's kingdom and the work of the Holy Spirit. And this is the doctrine of the congregation. And I'm concerned that John

About John's understanding of the doctrine of the congregation. He rarely speaks about the beauty of God's congregation. It doesn't feel like the mother of the congregation is his mother. John's annual meeting comments spoke emphasizing the local congregation. And it concerned me that there was that kind of emphasis

And lack of desire to hear what the concerns of the Rockford brothers were. It concerns me that there doesn't seem to be that mind, humble-minded heart to hear the voice of the congregation, the voice of the spirit. But defense on positions

Another thing that pertains to the doctrine of the congregation is the emphasis that John has put on the Word being above the congregation. The Word of God is the highest authority for faith and life. The Word of God is Christ. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was Christ.

So yes, the word is the head of the congregation. But we can't separate the word from the congregation, and that's what I'm concerned is happening. That the word is separated from the congregation to give permission to understand matters differently than the congregation of God. I also, also pertaining to the doctrine of the congregation, this matter of passive binding.

I felt concerned about that phrase that John used. How does the congregation passively bind when the congregation acknowledges that we can't hold that person as a believer anymore? That's not passive. That's active. Yes, the individual has denied their faith and lost their faith through their own actions. The congregation has not taken away their faith.

Then also pertaining to the understanding in the congregation of God about various matters, it seems like John's views have raised concern. Comments like the television decision is obsolete. I agree that

The devices and the device that I'm holding in my hand where I gathered some notes for this discussion because I wanted to try to answer the questions that people have about my position. These devices, we can get television on them. That's very true. And I agree with that sense that it's not the same as whether we take the television into our house or not. But these kinds of discussions, how does that edify

The children of God. Wouldn't we rather speak of the beauty of that decision, the blessing of that decision that has helped us so much and try to preserve that, the sense of that decision even in the midst of changing technology. Another similar example is the matter of Halloween. It feels like there's been dissension about that.

From John over the years. We can have a sense of things that, oh, I wonder if this was, when there are decisions about the righteousness of life, this was, was that a good collective decision or not? But to undermine those discussions and to break love of believers with our actions and these kinds of

Paul speaks about keeping love and not putting a stumbling block before the children of God. I also would say regarding the matter of birth control that John's statements over the years have caused concern.

And continue to cause concern. Why? I don't know. But they do, and they have. And also I would say that John misused Harri Vähäjylkkä's comments in our previous meeting. They were taken out of context, and the way John used those words of the Phoenix pastor I don't think is correct.

Another area that pertains to the doctrine of the congregation is the governance of the household of God. And I think this speaks to what I spoke to in the beginning about the board's spiritual role. John's comments over the years seem to indicate that the board doesn't have a spiritual role. And some of the comments in the beginning of the

The meeting indicated that from other speeches. John has referred to the SRK statement that talked about the problems of the 70s and 80s that they wrote about in about 2011, 2012 regarding the governance of the household of God. Walt Lampi spoke to this at our last meeting.

John has raised questions about the spiritual role of the board, but doesn't really clearly state what he feels about it. When he raised this question, as Walt, I think, outlined at our last meeting to Walt, Walt asked John what he thinks of the statement that was in the SRK mission statement, and John isn't clear.

He doesn't say what he feels about the role of the board. So this pertains also closely to the congregation, the doctrine of the congregation. And I kept a Bible class here some months ago about Korah and his rebellion, where the people rose up against Moses and Aaron in the Old Testament.

I felt kind of a peculiar question from John that what about the SRK position statement that speaks to boards going overboard? Well, of course, that's a valid point from the 70s and 80s, that there was overshooting. There were situations where boards didn't

Understand and took too much upon themselves. And those errors were made and they were acknowledged. That wasn't the point of the lesson of Korah. And so I didn't speak to that in the lesson. John has made quite a discussion about the watchmen on the walls of Zion. Yes, we are watchmen.

All believers are watchmen in their own place. But to somehow detract from the fact that God has set some in his kingdom as shepherds, as stewards, as servants, and take away from that which God has given, I have to say that I wonder about that. It feels like distrust.

From some of those that are raising concerns, distrust for the LLC, distrust of our own board, distrust of the speakers, these are some of the things that are, I feel, central. Also the work of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit moves. When believers say that they're troubled, and have expressed this to John,

Even troubled about him. Or when the Spirit doesn't answer. Somehow that's dismissed. Oh, those are just feelings. That's not right. The Spirit of God works in the children of God. And as one sister said at our last meeting, the Spirit either answers or it doesn't. And we have to also, as servants, accept that.

That if the Spirit doesn't answer to our sermons, if we raise concern no matter how right we are and how much we can defend our position, it's not right. Also, from the SRK statement, John has talked about there being no such thing as a wrong spirit.

The statement that SRK made about wrong spirits from the 70s and 80s, as I understand it, was one that spoke to the fact that there was too much discussion at that time of labeling what spirit someone's in, and that was the error that was made. But it did not say that there's not such a thing as the wrong spirit.

It seems like over the years, some of John's comments at discussions and so forth have always, or have tended to speak to the other side of the coin. And seeds of doubt are sown in this way. They're peculiar questions. For example, at a youth discussion, when the point was about the center of the flock,

John made a peculiar statement about what is the center of the flock. The center of the flock, it's a pretty clear concept in God's kingdom and has been for a long time that we want to remain there where God's children, where we're safe and don't want to be pushing out on our own and testing the boundaries.

There's been discussion recently, brothers and sisters, about the last heresy. Concerns that I have heard of documents even of Walter Torola's writings being passed around in some way that has given concern to believers that there's some sort of looking at those to have some validity. And I have to say, dear Brother John,

Some of your comments in this regard have raised concern. Comments like, Heikki Saari should have never been sent to America. Comments that seem to lean to this that would the heresy have had to happen. And I know that you'll probably disagree that you haven't said it this way. But again, the comments you have made have raised that kind of question.

That sometimes brothers have wondered when Heikki Saari went astray in his own, had gone astray in his own life of faith, that why God used him here in America. But to begin to question whether he should have even come here or to bring those kinds of seeds of doubt, I think it's beyond trusting that God led and guided.

The other thing I have to say, that many that are supporting John, and I hate to use that kind of terminology, but it seems like they're also critical of the LLC. We who work for LLC are faulty and not perfect by any means, but we're trying to do the job that God has given us.

And so when these questions come up about doctrine, I have to say that I'm concerned about the way John understands the doctrine of God's congregation and the work of the Holy Spirit. Very central doctrinal matters. And the fruits that have been felled

The concerns that individual believers have had, I think we can't dismiss them. And so I speak all of these things with, I want to be direct and open. I hope I speak in love. I hope, dear brother John,

You will consider my weak words. Forgive the weakest parts of them, but consider them in your heart. I've been very weak, timid, and faulty through these years of concerns. I've done and said things I shouldn't have.

I simply want to entrust myself into the care of God's congregation. And I ask if I can believe all of my sins forgiven. All sins forgiven in Jesus name, precious blood. So next is Ernie Lehtola. He's over here, Phil.

In the beginning, Russell spoke such nice words, I say amen to those words. I have to say that, Jared, the congregation is very fortunate to have you up there. You have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. I agree with your responses and answers. I've learned a lot from you this morning.

Keith's comments, I agree with what Keith said about John. I've been concerned about him for years and years. And it's about time that the congregation takes this matter up. And I agree with the Board of them. Let he be taken down. Thanks, Ernie. Lisa Ilitello? She's on this side, Phil.

So I just want to caution about these groups of like-minded people. If you haven't spoken to them individually, you don't know how they believe or what they're even talking about. And I attended a joint board meeting. I got a call after that, and they said, oh, you're a follower of John Lehtola. I said, why do you say that? Well, you went to the joint board meeting. And I said, well, that's not true. I don't follow any minister or any man. So I feel like there's a lot of rumors going around too that I just

If you want to express passion, if you haven't talked to an individual, please stop spreading rumors about them. Next would be Aaron Parks.

I have all since forgiven J.S. Wayne, precious one. I would encourage everybody to speak with justice, you know, with love. It seemed like their personal attacks, I think, could be either uncalled for.

I want to view everyone here as believers. Even if it's divided and stuff. It's pretty troubling to me. So I can just speak to somebody and honor or keep your peace. Thanks, Aaron. Next would be Bill Jusola.

We've had discussion this morning and in the last months and it seems like right now I would like to make a motion that we have our vote. Do we have a second to that? A second that we would vote right now? So we have to address this first.

Because that would be the answer to that. So do we have a second that we move to a vote on if John continues to speak or not? Russ Roiko seconds. Okay, now going to what Lisa said. If we approve the motion to go to a vote, that ends discussion and we vote. If we obviously don't approve the motion, then we continue discussion.

But being as the motion has been made and seconded, that's the spot where we are. We do have three names on the list right now. So I think at this point, and I guess I'd need the vote counters to look at Zach. This is correct, right? This is how he works. Zach was helping me make sure I understood the rules. And two-thirds agreement to end discussion and move to a vote. So I guess I would ask the vote counters

Gordy and Paul, maybe you can stand up to where you can see. I don't know where Gordy's at right now. Oh, you're at the restroom. Yeah. Yeah, yep. That's why we're going to be clear.

The people of this congregation need to speak of their concerns. We do not want to push this over.

So I totally disagree with it that we should vote because that's not how it's done in God's kingdom. We discuss the matters. Even if it takes all day today, even if it goes to another meeting, we need to discuss this stuff. We cannot push it. It's not the way God's kingdom works. So that's okay, but what I read from Luther did say it's up to the congregation. But at this point,

So right now we have people voting no. Voting is open just to congregation members. At this point I don't think I know Keith has his hand out, but lots of people have their hands up. I would just like to speak to this matter of voting. I am in favor of discussing matters, but

The fact that we would vote, that does not mean that is not the will of God. Who is to say what the will of God is? Yes, we need to discuss matters, whether we vote or don't vote, and before we vote and after we vote, and today and tomorrow and ongoing, but we can't say, none of us can say what the will of God is.

We can discuss matters, and if the congregation concludes that the only way to make a decision is to vote, I can't say that that's contrary to God's word. It's not, so. We know that Anne has her hand up, but we do need to, I mean, so lots of hands are up. I don't know that we, at this point, the motion has been made. I think we do need to just do a count on

If we vote or not, vote right now. So I guess that's my first is, do we vote right now? Close discussion and vote. So all in favor of voting right now, please raise your hand if you're in favor of voting at this point.

I guess if you guys have that count. Two thirds of those present. Two thirds that vote. So then, so if you've got that number, then on the other side, all those who would prefer to keep discussion open and not vote at this time.

So based on the vote, we continue discussion. So next on the list then would be Anita Karanemi. Well, she wasn't, but so if we go back to the list now is what we should do. So do you want to be on the list, Ann? Okay.

This is very difficult and we're new to this congregation so I just wanted to, you know, I don't know the history, but we moved here a year ago and we were very welcomed by everybody and we were actually

I don't think there are sides in God's kingdom. There's disagreements and differences of opinion, but there's one faith. And I have been fed by

All the ministers that have spoken in this church. By Keith. Keith, we support you just as much as we support John. I've always heard John preach forgiveness and confess his faith many times. And I take him at his word, just like I do Keith and every other minister that comes and speaks.

He has a different style, but we want that in God's kingdom. We want a variety of teachers to speak to different people. And not everybody is going to come to church every Sunday and have their soul fed. You may have your soul fed from the song, you may have your soul fed from the discussions after, just by greeting God's peace. When you greet someone with God's peace, you are confessing your faith.

So to come and listen to a sermon and try to find something that you don't agree with or feel like your soul hasn't been fed and then not go speak to that minister after to bring up your concerns and then tell people that your soul wasn't fed is wrong. We are a family and it's shameful to see so much, so much anger between people.

That being said, all of these things can be taken care of. There's boundless forgiveness. I was talking to my mom once about what is this continuous forgiveness means. I've never heard of such a thing. I was at John's Bible class where he explained it, and I felt very comforted that we are sinners. We need forgiveness. But we are believers. We are children of God.

But she told me, instead of continual forgiveness, it should be endless forgiveness. We have endless forgiveness in the kingdom. So I don't know the 25 years of history with some of the leadership, but I do know what I have seen

And what matters today is that John is here, Keith is here, we are all here because we love each other. We want to make it to heaven. All of these things that have been texted and passed and emailed and everybody, John, Keith, Russ, everybody agrees that we want our sins forgiven. John preaches forgiveness, Keith preaches forgiveness, we all preach forgiveness to each other freely.

And I don't know after that where it breaks down because we're all in agreement on that. I don't know if there's a lot of personality difference that can be overcome by truly forgiving each other. And I'll wrap it up.

I kind of lost my train of thought. So next.

What's that? Sure. I don't know. I had... Was there somebody who had a meter? Well, my term, but you've got the mic, so... And... So somebody mentioned me not by name, but they mentioned what I said at our last meeting. And one of the things that's been...

Kind of apparent as it came out at the end of our annual meeting, the concern over the way John's been treated over the years. And I addressed it at one of our meetings, and I said at the time I was on the board, there was some care around John, matters were forgiven, we moved on. But it seems like there are,

These are the people that are still concerned about the way John's been treated over the years and the way maybe he continues to be treated. But what we don't hear is that John hasn't addressed those issues. I guess it would be good if John could speak to that if he feels that the board and the individuals involved

And some of these meetings treated him with love and with grace and with truth. Or did they treat him with the hand of the law? In my mind, I think that's where we're at. And until John addresses those, I think we'll have continual disagreement, I guess.

Only he can answer that question. I can't answer how John feels or how he's felt. All I can say is what I have observed that forgiveness is preached. I do agree with Artie and Keith. They said that their concerns over John and all his teachings and how he's presented them or not presented them.

I think it would be good if John would step down. Thank you, Paul. Next would be Mike Jurma.

As I sit among you, I feel my soul with many great weaknesses and my sinfulness and my lack of understanding that I can hear the gospel. In all sense, we have a JSA precious blood. Patrick, I wanted to mention something that you said, not to argue, but to clarify.

I don't think this meeting is a referendum on whether John believes or not. I think this meeting, we're here to discuss whether he should serve our congregation. And the way I see that,

I did bring this up at a board meeting a while ago, but there has been a lot of questions concerning things that John has said, some that I understand, some that I don't. There's been questions from Rockford, or other sister congregations. There was the news from Ministers Camp,

And so with these other questions that we keep coming up with and that we keep hearing, the one on continuous forgiveness, I quail a little bit to speak about my own personal experiences. It feels difficult to me.

But we have had many discussions on the board level about these things. And again, I say that this isn't about whether John is a believer or not. This is about whether he should serve. And with these questions that keep coming up and with these problems that keep revolving

Around John, it seems like it would be best for him and for our congregation if he rested. I would echo many of the things that Keith said about the, and I don't understand

A lot of the big words, I've got to be honest, but it's my understanding that God is three persons. He's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is in the hearts of the believers, and the Holy Spirit is God. And so what we hear, and of course I agree that the Bible is the highest authority, but the Bible

As the Ethiopian eunuch told Philip is, how do I understand it unless somebody explain it to me? And so the Bible for those of the world is a closed book. That's how we can talk. It's only revealed through the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is in the congregation. So I don't think we can divide those. We can't split those.

In some of my discussions I've had with with some of the brothers it seems to me that that's one of the places and I gotta be honest and very clear I haven't had this this discussion with John but with some of the brothers on the board that it seems like we've

With the understanding that the Bible is the highest authority and we've heard it here today that the Bible reveals to us when we need it and God will reveal it to us. But to me it seems like the word of God is in the congregation and the congregation, the Holy Spirit reveals

The will and the word of God. And so this question that again comes back to John's service. And so many of these questions that seem to be swirling in God's kingdom and these disagreements, one of the common denominators is the support

And I pray that that support would not in some ways blind you, John. We all need to have our own personal faith. And I don't think that whether we serve as a speaker or a board member,

It doesn't mean that we don't need our own personal faith. That's between us and God, and that's how we make it to heaven. Also, we've had this discussion about whether a minister should serve.

And how you would ask a servant to sit. And it's been stated fairly unequivocally by some that only by a severe personal indiscretion or by God's doctrine. And yet, in the Bible, and I tremble when I

When I say these things because I feel so small, and my understanding is so small, but what I can see, it doesn't say in the Bible that we're known by our doctrine, it says we're known by our fruits. And so these questions on service, you know, the fruits of our day,

And with people aligning themselves to you, John, that's where I say that it would be better for all of us if you rested. So, I know I already asked, but I still feel the weakness in the weak words

It's after 1 o'clock and I'm going to have to leave, so first I'm going to ask Eugene to come up and take my position here. But for my weak watchings and

Thank you, Eugene, if you can come up. Jared, as long as I have the mic, I thought I could ask a question. Especially seeing as how we don't have lunch prepared, it doesn't look like any of us are in any danger of dying from lack of food. Is there a time when we should say that discussion is over for now? If we leave it open-ended, we might talk all day.

And maybe that's what we need. Yeah, I know. When we discussed it on the board, we didn't plan anymore. We didn't have a good answer for that. Yeah. Pizza's on the way? Hmm? Okay. Well, we're going to take a short hiatus. I'm going to turn this over to Eugene. Let's feast, everyone.

Okay, continuing on. Looks like Bill Karanemi was next for speaking terms.

Is Bill not here? Okay. This is a little nerve-wracking, but hear the gospel. Since for a while after the annual meeting, I was working nights. I had plenty of time to digest what happened at the annual meeting. And it got to the point

We're made believing depressing. And being a believer is not supposed to be depressing. You're supposed to be happy. You're saved. And it got to the point where I had to block it out of my mind because I didn't want it to affect my faith. And me and my wife and new kid got a

Travel around to Colorado, Washington, and Montana. Got to see a lot of believers. And it was really uplifting because I believe exactly the way they do. And I felt humbly held Jared's message a few Sundays ago. And what's also bothered me is it seems to be

A push maybe to go into heresy, the anger is jammed, so let's cut off the whole arm instead of discuss it. I'd preferably love to discuss this for years and years. As James said, God's will spins slowly. And there's a few things when ministers go to the pulpit.

I felt really uplifted. And why did I feel so good? Well, it was right scripturally, and he stayed on scripture. I don't know how Russell can supposedly be on one side and John on the other, and I say amen to both. I just feel like in some sermons when they veer off on an off topic and they talk about the issues of the day,

Sometimes I feel like they're trying to push their, I don't want to say agenda, but their sermon a few weeks back was talking quite a bit about taking down sermons if you feel like they're doing right. And I don't, I think that should be left for these discussions, not our sermons, because we've come to hear the gospel and why Christ died for us and why we are fortunate to be believers and saved.

And I'm not comfortable with voting today. If we do, we will, but I just feel like, for me, because I put my head in the sand, I guess, and I just don't like, I don't, I feel like this is something that should be discussed in open. It's unfortunate when this stuff started 20, 30 years ago, it wasn't brought out in the open.

But that's in God's time. And I guess another question is for, would it be a possibility that Russell, Keith, John, and the rest of the board step down and have a whole new board and see maybe this is a bunch of personality clashes? I mean, I would hate, I don't want to see a Harris here to buy because

When I sit here in sanctuary, I look around and we're all believers. And I felt that after Eugene's sermon last few weeks ago, that we're all believers and we should all love each other. If we got personality flashes, just acknowledging them that, hey, I don't get along with this person, but trying not to speak ill of them, I guess.

All right, next on the list is Anne [Parks]. I'm really glad to

I see that people want to discuss this. That in itself shows how this is important to everybody and the concerns that go back and forth. So very happy to hear the discussion and the fact that people want to discuss this. And I think that's the only way that we're going to get to the bottom of this. We need clarity. We need to pursue the truth. If we can't get to that, I don't know how we resolve these things.

But going to the point that if we have John Rest, the question still remains, is he right or wrong? I guess when you put it in black and white, that's the question that goes through my mind. If he's wrong, we need to know, and I would imagine me being in his position, I would want to know, what am I wrong in? I want to reach heaven just as anybody else. What is the concern? What is the spiritual difference?

I guess, to me, that would be a burning question in my mind. And I think that, at a minimum, I would encourage those people that did have concerns to voice those concerns now in the open. And I think this becomes such an open wound to everybody. It hurts everybody to see what's going on. And it's very important that these things be aired, not spoken about behind other people's backs.

What happens when tension is felt? Just to speak a little bit to the volume of people, I keep hearing that, okay, so we've got people in the congregation that are speaking this, we've heard this from elsewhere that there's concern for John's speaking and what he's saying. Well, I guess I've heard the opposite as well,

People from the Minnesota area proper and elsewhere have been fed and nourished by what John has said, and they're so very grateful that they've been able to listen via archived sermons. So it makes almost like this question of how do we reconcile this? And I guess the only way that I see is we need to have open discussion,

And it needs to be based on God's word. It very clearly states in the Bible that God is not a respecter of man. And just because, I mean, I've heard a comment, it was in another congregation, not here, that, oh, if that's how this minister believes, oh, that's what I feel. Even though a minute earlier, they disagreed with the premise of that minister. So I'm just saying, I don't need to pick any kind of fights or

Arguments or anything like that, but we do need to take a look at the big picture and consider it with God's word. We don't follow a man that knows salvation in that, as we all know. On the last day, it's not, oh, were you following John or were you following Peter or us? No, it's not that. We don't have a spiritual leader in our congregation. That brings me to the point I wish Jared was here, because I think

This might have originated with him, the whole idea of the spiritual leader. I guess I would be curious to know how you define that, and I guess, to me, the only leader that we have is Christ. And if we have any other leader, then we are looking to man, and I say that's a very dangerous position to be in.

And the point of just because many people say something, does that make it right? I mean, I think we don't have to look very far in the history to see that that isn't the case. But I do think that it is important to pursue truth in our faith life and in hearing for others. And John, I think in some ways what I,

I've experienced here what I felt just watching this morning. John was essentially Kana, and it seems like we're not allowing him to speak what he truly feels in his heart. It almost appears like there isn't this preconceived notion of what John thinks. And where that's come from, who knows?

Is that how we are instructed to care for one another? I don't think so. And I think we all need to look into our own hearts, put ourselves in the position of, I guess, John here. And he's, in a sense, being questioned. His faith is being questioned.

And there's nothing wrong with asking about matters of faith, how you see things, especially for a minister, I think it's very important. But we also do need to make sure that this happens in correctness and in love. As it's been said, that's how we're known as the disciples of Christ. If we have love one for another, and if we can't get to the truth of things

And I know that there's been a lot of things that John and their family have experienced, and I don't know if they would like to open up some things that stand out in their mind as points that have led to this. And maybe at the time, I think of putting myself in their position, I think of

Okay, you try to solve, you sense a problem, you try to solve it, you don't say anything about it because you feel it's yours. But now, after so many years, it's become a heavy trial. And to not allow him to speak and others to ask questions of him, I think is not right. And I do think, like I said, we do need to pursue the truth, and that's the only thing that's going to lead us out of this. And just a side note,

You do hear the things about taking sides and showing up at board meetings. I guess I've been one that, and I'll freely say it, I've been one to attend board meetings and I have absolutely no desire to be a troublemaker or a rebel. It's more because what I'm seeing, what I'm hearing is concerning to me and it seems that there is ability or the chance

For some to speak their concerns, but then when people have gone to speak of these concerns with people that are making these concerns, the response I feel is that you're wrong. You have unforgiven sin. Is this how we solve the problems? I don't think so. And is this love and caring for one another's soul

I don't think so. And I guess the bottom line is we're here to help one another get to heaven. And if we do have a concern or if someone makes a comment, instead of talking to someone else, we'll speak directly to that person. It's really unfortunate what has happened and I often felt during this time my own weakness and my own doubts about many things

Here's the situation I ask, and I have my sins and many doubts forgiven. Next is Diana Vilkama.

First of all, it's such a hard meeting to be at, and my thoughts are a jumble, but I'll try my best to do this. So I'm very happy that the discussion's gonna continue. It's very alarming and distressing. All right, my thoughts are a jumble, but I'll try to make sense of these. So I am very happy that the discussion is gonna continue. The call to vote right after those speeches was very alarming and distressing, so I'm just happy that this discussion is gonna continue.

So first of all, I think that we need to turn back to how do we believe, to our doctrine, and how does John believe? And also, lead us to hear more about this minister's camp, because we keep hearing about this camp, but none of us were there. And I want to know why this is being brought up, and I want to know what John believes, what all that was,

That would be helpful to clarify because I can spring up that I guess someone, one of the ministers of our congregation said that John set himself apart from God's kingdom and that is

So distressing to hear that because of apparently what he had said at speaker's camp. So I think we need to clarify what John said, how he set himself against God's kingdom, and I really want to know that. And I think we can figure this out by hearing how does John believe? He's our brother in love. We need to figure this out. And when he has all these, I guess, accusations against him, I want to know, I want to hear from him how does he believe.

He's a very good friend of our family, but I'm also not what you call a John supporter. We've been accused of that, and my family has, and my mom especially has been accused of that, of being a John follower. And it's very upsetting because I follow Christ, and I just want to know, I think we can figure this out by keeping John in love and hearing from him how he believes.

And with Continual Forgiveness, it means grace. And that is not wrong doctrine. Continual Forgiveness is not to kill Satan. It's grace. And we are, like I agree with Amita Karanis, that endless forgiveness is what Continual Forgiveness is to me.

So I'm not trying to be a troublemaker. I just want to know how John believes, what happened at Speaker's Camp, and how this apparently did he set himself apart from God's kingdom at that camp.

And one more thing, too, is that there's been great concerns about John over the years, and so I wonder that if the hearer is in the congregation while listening to a sermon, how much is that of doubt or suspicion in that person's mind, and what is, is this personal bias clouding the hearer, or is it the spirit? I don't know. And so, again,

I'm just very troubled by all of this and so I hope that we can put an end to this by having John tell us how he believes and turning back to the Bible of how we truly believe to correct doctrine. And the only way I can think of taking a minister down is that he is preaching wrong doctrine or living in public open sin and unrepentant. So also I just want to hear the gospel for myself.

Okay, next we have Lynelle Quila. Okay. You want, should we give John a turn? He had his hand up. He'd like to respond to the...

First of all, Paul Kilvanen asked a question about my treatment or experience of treatment, and of course I've been on board meetings for the last 25 years since I came here, and many of them were just normal, nothing out of the ordinary meetings, but at times there has been over the years tension, and of course we have many meetings that have been held, and actually I printed out my

My meeting minutes that I, when I'm taking notes, and I have 150 pages of them, and some of the meetings aren't packed up yet. But anyways, just one example from almost a year ago was our extra board meeting, and there, one individual raised up the pastoral description, description of a pastor, a pastor's office description,

And he said that you don't even fit this description. You shouldn't even be a pastor. And only 25% of the listeners even understand your sermons, and based on the message that you preach, we don't even know whether you're believing or not. So, I mean, those are quite strong statements. That's only one example.

Oddly enough, about 20 years ago, a chairman back then came into my office and he said, you should be an engineer rather than a pastor. I don't know why you are a pastor. We should cut your wages to half and then go down from there. So these are just a couple of blatant examples. Kathy Helmke raised the question, and Keith kind of coincided with it, that I'm not humble. On May 6,

In my opening speech, I think I grabbed the mic right after Russ Roiko, someone that visited with me just before the meeting, he says, remember, when you go to that meeting, don't fight, don't defend yourself, just say you submit yourself to the will of the congregation. So that's what I said, the local congregation, that is the local congregation, this is the local congregation doctrine that Minneapolis has put up its ministers,

Minneapolis takes care of its ministers, and Minneapolis, if need be, Minneapolis alone takes its ministers down. Rockford, when they put up Rocky's Orbital, they didn't ask Minneapolis. When Elk River put up the Avian Pyramids in Sam Roiko, they didn't ask Rockford or Minneapolis, and so on and so forth. The local congregation wouldn't mind to put up Randy [Herrala], they didn't ask Wolf Lake.

And when Wolf Lake put up Phil Alajoki, then in Menahga, the local congregation chooses its ministers, the local congregation first and foremost takes care of its ministers, and if need be, the local congregation then takes down its ministers. It's not the same as the local congregation that Walter Torola was talking about before the last [heresy]. It's completely different.

I'll give you God's kingdom. I think I answered that in my little speech on May 31st. The kingdom of God is the mother. Luther explains in a large catechism, the mother, in this sense, is the one that gives us birth, it feeds us, it nourishes us, and also cares for us. Our congregation is made up of believers, no matter where they are, not only on this continent, but the other continents, including also

The former saints that have gone to rest from Adam and Eve all the way to our time and will continue to the end of the world. The mother is the invisible congregation, not the local gathered congregation here in Minneapolis or Rockford or Monticello or wherever. So always you must remember that a local, visible congregation, congregation setting, even like here today, in air.

The name of God in its entirety. The invisible congregation is unerring. That's a doctrinal truth. Lack to hear our LLC. Well, it's always been a custom in Finland that if, for example, Minneapolis needs help, first of all, they try to take care of their issues internally,

If and when they want to, then they will invite from the outside. It's never the way that from the outside you sort of impose your will upon another congregation. It's always by invite. SRK will never impose a local congregation in Finland unless they have received an invite. It's by invite only. That is only what I'm referring to.

Passive binding, that's just a technical term, and I've tried to explain myself, and I still stand behind that explanation. Sure, no individual can bind. The congregation alone binds, and if they publicly acknowledge that a person has been unrepentant and still living in the open center or whatever, and then they declare

That we can no longer keep you as a believer. That person, as I said already, has already found himself for her own sins, and the congregation has been making a declaration about that person's faith. It's not where two or three are gathered together, and they, two or three, make that decision. Not a board, but it is the entire gathered assembly, the entire congregation.

I explained myself already. I'm not saying that we undo the decision back in the 1960s, but I'm saying in all reality, we have the TV on our phones and on our computers, and it's right there in our own homes and with us every step of our way. So it comes down to personal watching, watching what buttons we click and what pages we go to and so on and so forth. That's all I was trying to say.

I'm not saying every believer now go out and buy a television and bring it into your home. Absolutely not. Birth control, I think I clarified my statement in my opening message. I did mention Harri Vähäjylkkä by name. I guess I've got to be careful about a public statement like that. I heard it secondhand. Sorry, I shouldn't have made such a good reference to a certain individual.

Government of the household of God. The Holy Spirit is the government of the house of God. It is not any board, not any local board, not any national board, LLC or SRK. The government of the household of God is the Holy Spirit which governs and rules in the congregation. Boards are not about anyone else. They are not spiritual rulers in the sense that they rule spiritually over the congregation.

They're made up of individual believers, members of the congregation, who are just like any one of us who are sitting here in the bench. And I can give references to the fact that words were originally established to handle temporal affairs of the congregation, and sure, it does have its spiritual, caretaking role, and as I've heard it explained in this meeting,

I do have these pieces of literature and they're in my archives. The SRK Statement of 2011 is in black and white and I don't know how much ambiguity there is in the SRK Statement of 2011.

Keith's Bible class on Korah. I just threw that out as a thought-provoking question. And it's just interesting to see what I asked is, what was the reason for the Korah Harris? What was the cause of it? What caused the reptile to open? Just perceiving it. What kind of response or answer do I give?

Watchmen on the wall. Yes, God has chosen some, but we are all, we are all, every single one of us are watchmen on the wall. It's not like it was stated in one sermon that we ministers and board members are the watchmen, you listeners are gardeners, we will be the watchmen, you can do your gardening. No, we are all watchmen. And it was so that only the ministers would be the watchmen who would care for the ministers if and when

Again, I have documentation supporting these statements. The work of the Holy Spirit. Yes, we have a triune God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit governs in each and every one of our hearts. It governs in the congregation. But the Holy Spirit does not operate independent of the work. It is tied and grounded.

The Holy Spirit says, it says, Amen in the Bible, the Holy Word of God. And if it's independent of the Word, then that becomes just like Naravism in the Viipuri area in Russia before World War II. It was called the Doctrine of the Inner Word, and they said, throw the Bibles aside, just listen to so-and-so, that they

New revelations, write down what that person has to say, and that is our new Bible. The doctrine of the inner word, which is fanaticism, if you could use that sort of term. So the Holy Spirit, yes, it works and functions and operates in God's kingdom and governs and leads us and guides us, but it is firmly ground in the written word of God, the Old and the New Testaments.

No such thing as wrong spirits. Well, I've had many discussions with believers in Finland and it's quite clearly in that SRK document of 2011 and that there's not much ambiguity in that statement. Do I always speak about the long-minded heresies? I think I addressed that issue or that topic in my speech on May 31st. I have at times.

And perhaps many times, but in the course of the last 25 years, has it been more than five, ten times on the fingers of my hand? I don't know. I don't think there's a whole range. It's just one side versus the other. You can go back and listen to my sermons. There's quite a few in the archives. I don't know why I haven't done it myself.

The word above the congregation, the word of God, the Bible, Old and New Testament, as it's stated in the Book of Concord, it says very clearly, and well, there's many statements in the English believing literature which say accordingly. Last yearbook from a year ago, it clearly says that the word of God also

He cares for the congregation and they actually even say it's about the congregation. So it's a matter that can be discussed and doesn't need to be a bone of contention, but it's something that we can discuss and visit about and yeah, an interesting topic. That's all I have for now.

Maybe if the mic can go back to Lynelle. I'm kind of scared and hesitant to speak up. I surely don't feel like I have any answers.

Speaking up because it's really sad for me to see where we are as a congregation and that I love this congregation. So I just wanted to share some of my thoughts based on what I've seen and heard over the past few years. And just for the reason that we would all have the understanding of what the truth is and so that none of us would go wrong. And I'd also encourage everyone else to speak up

Say their peace. And then just earlier when we were voting on whether to continue the discussion or have a vote, the question came up as, you know, are we doing man's will or God's will? How do we know what is the will of God? I think if we listen to the congregation, the will of God will be revealed. And I think all of our speakers' piece

John and Russ have all served our congregation to the best of their ability with the gifts that they've been given, and I'm grateful for that. So I agree that there's confusion and many things that need to be discussed, and people are uncomfortable with confusion and questions, and everyone wants things to be cleared up.

But is John the cause of the confusion? And would taking him down actually clear up the confusion? I don't think so. I think that would make the situation worse. Because what if the cause of the confusion is because of us listeners? And I guess to make that point, I thought of it this way, that imagine a classroom of kids trying to learn algebra, and a bunch of the kids are confused.

They've never heard these math terms before. They don't like it. Does anyone think the solution is to have the teacher sit down and stop talking? Or should the kids be encouraged to ask questions, listen carefully, and go over and over the lesson as many times as it takes to understand it, and then not move on to lesson two until lesson one is clearly understood?

And to connect this to our situation, I would, you know, my thought is lesson one is justification. How are we saved? So there is confusion, you know, but I don't think pointing at John as the cause of the confusion is right. You know, on the topics of continuous forgiveness, robes of righteousness, and justification, I think John has explained these very clearly.

And his explanations have been based on the Bible and previous teachings in Christianity. So if it turns out that John is not causing the confusion, what is? I don't know, but I just wondered if, you know, could the problem be that for many years we have not focused enough on these doctrinal issues, but they've kind of been put on the back burner and our focus

Gradually drifted into talking more about things like what we as believers shouldn't do and what we should do and the dangers of this and that and putting sin away, our failures and our endeavor, et cetera. And we haven't stayed focused enough on the main point of how are we saved. And I think we need to stop focusing on who's following who or

Who's in agreement with who and who's in opposition to people or the LLC? Shouldn't the focus be on being in agreement and not in opposition to the word of God? So I think we need to, you know,

Go to those concerns that people have. You know, they say they have a concern about John. And rather than listing off many concerns, just pick one. Just start with one of them. And talk about it until it's so clear that we can say, here's one understanding, here's the other understanding. Which one is according to the Bible? Like, just the continuous forgiveness. That's the one that I've heard talked about round and round the most.

You know, I haven't heard all the discussions, but from what I've heard, first we heard that the consensus from speaker's camp was that this was a wrong doctrine. Then later it was explained that, well, it's not a wrong doctrine, but the term is wrong because it causes confusion. Well, to me, that's a confusing explanation. And then later, at one board meeting where there were some congregation members attending, both John and Keith were asked to explain

Continued forgiveness. And John gave his explanation. And then Keith had said that he doesn't disagree with John's explanation. So how could we clear up confusion? You know, if after more discussion it turns out that John was right on this topic, those who said he was wrong could say, oops, I misunderstood, I'm sorry. And, you know, forgiveness is an amazing thing.

But if some still believe it's a wrong doctrine, then we need to talk about it and, you know, just clear up one topic before we move on to the next. And just one last thought. If we're thinking about reasons to take down a speaker, we need to consider what are the okay reasons for a congregation to take someone down from speaking.

I think that voting to take down a minister who's preaching the correct word of God is wrong. We believe ministers are called by God through the congregation to preach the word of God. So if they're preaching correctly, aren't we going against what God has ordained if we take them down? And if we decide that confusion is a good enough reason to take a speaker down, then are we ready to apply this to any and every speaker that some feel are causing confusion?

And then lastly, just back to the quote that Jared shared in the beginning from Luther about how the sheep judge whether the shepherd is, well, they judge the shepherd based on sticking to, if they're sticking to the word of God or not. So that quote kind of proves that point. It didn't say that there's something besides doctrine that would be a reason to take a pastor down.

So, you know, I want everyone just to speak up and say their piece. And I agree with the people that are, you know, bothered by talk about division and putting people in groups. And I don't think that helps at all to label people or put them into a group. That we're all on the side of truth and we all want the correct understanding. And when we start labeling people and putting them into groups, then it's really hard for us to listen without bias to what someone's saying if we've already labeled them.

And then also, someone might not want to speak up because they're afraid they'll be put into a group. So we want to just be able to discuss these things and listen to each other without assuming things and pray that we would all continue to be given faith and the correct understanding. We need to remember that we're all following Christ. And if we believe the word of God, then we'll be in unity with all the other believers.

And I'd also like to ask, too, if I can hear the gospel from my sons and daughters. Okay, next on the list is James Lehtola.

First of all, I just want to say that I'm really glad that this discussion continued, because we need to discuss it. It's very evident to the congregation members that we need to get to the bottom of this, but we need to get to the bottom of it by going to God's Word. I may have been a little passionate earlier, but I strongly feel that it should not go to a vote without discussion.

He was correct that the bylaws say so, and I'm not saying that that was nothing but the will of God. I just declare it for myself. And I know there's been some speeches that, you know, that the Spirit has revealed, and I've heard it at award meetings, that John should be taken down, or this feeling that John should be taken down. Of course, we...

You know, want to go to God's Word, and that we also accept Martin Luther as, we call him the father of our doctrine. So I did find a quote where Luther talks about how closely tied is the Word to the Spirit, and he says it in this way, God wants to give the Holy Spirit through the Word, and without the Word, he does not want to do it. So that shows very clearly that we need to go to the Word, and the Word has to be done through the Spirit.

Also, there has been lots of questions that how do all our ministers understand these matters? How do our board members understand these matters? I think now at this time would be a very good time. I would encourage our ministers and our board members why they came to that kind of an understanding that John should be

It should sit or be resting so that the congregation can get a better understanding of what has taken place behind our board meetings. I'll be honest, it has troubled me that we have this feeling that the Spirit has revealed when that's not according to the Word. Again, I hope that people would feel open and speak freely what's on their hearts here today.

Okay, next is Russ. Our dear brother Harri Vähäjylkkä moved from the congregation in Jyväskylä to the Phoenix congregation. So these issues have come under discussion. He has commented and

Several different forms and also at the minister's camp and how similar the situation is with our dear brother John to what they experienced in Jyväskylä. The Jyväskylä congregation for many years was struggling with a brother by the name of Tuomas Palola. As a theologian and researcher, Tuomas

[was so convinced that] his doctrine was correct [that] he said, I will keep three lectures, and you can tell me when my doctrine is wrong. But Harri said that every time Tuomas went to preach, the congregation was not at rest or at peace. They did not hear the voice of the Good Shepherd any longer.

And so finally when he was asked to step down and create from that responsibility, he said that peace returned to that congregation. And Tuomas Palola immediately took his complaint to the local newspaper about how he had been mistreated by the

The board of the Jyväskylä congregation. So the question is not just the doctrine, but it is also how the congregation reacts. How do you comment at camp that there's something that I say

It causes unrest in the congregation. It's my responsibility as a speaker, as a minister, to figure out what it is and to correct that and take care of those matters. So, it points out, I believe that one aspect points out that question of that service

These have been being dealt with on many different aspects for many years. Of course we don't bring them to the congregation when we have discussed them and we think we have been able to come to an understanding

Some of the issues have been such that I requested that John clarify with the congregation what his understanding now is, and he did not, in the sense of asking for the congregation's forgiveness for his wrong teaching.

Our voices, we make mistakes, we say things wrong, but we need the forgiveness and the support of the congregation in order to be able to continue to move on, to continue to serve. So, I think at this point in time, this discussion churns because

We are expressing opinions that are only partially knowledgeable about the complete realm of things that have happened. Of course, the experiences at camp and our experiences on the board have brought us to this point. And it's basically up to our dear brother John now to say, I think, does he accept the decision of the board?

Step down, or is he wanting to keep pushing the issue? Okay, John has his hand up to respond. It's not a board decision or a board recommendation, it's a congregation.

I see Diane Vilkama has her hand up.

Okay, so I'm trying to understand Russell's comments. Sir, are you saying that John is preaching his own doctrine when you compare him to Tuomas Palola? I'm trying to figure this out, like, what your intent is by bringing him up that he's preaching his own doctrine.

And he says about his wrong teachings and John not clarifying. So, Russell, I want to know more about that, because I'm really confused with the comparison of Tuomas Palola. And then I also agree with Lynelle about if you take down a minister from, like, with confusion, that's causing confusion. Well, I know a Rockford minister preached that the robe of righteousness can be stained.

And I believe it was Ray Waaraniemi, I think. And so if we start on that path of if ministers give a confusing message, should they be taken down? We're all human. And I know that another minister in Cokato, a rocker minister, preached that if you read the Bible, if you keep reading the Bible, we'll end up outside of God's kingdom. So again, if we go down that path by taking down ministers for confusion,

Then, where does it end? I'm just very distressed by that. So again, so kind of going back to my first comment, I want to, I want Russell to clarify, like, the comparison of [Tuomas Palola's preaching], like, Jonah's preach, if he's accusing Jonah of preaching his own doctrine. Thank you. Okay, dance turtles. Oh, let's let Russ respond.

While the mic is coming to Russ, I just want to remind everybody how Jared had mentioned we're going to try to keep the comments, give local congregation members a priority. So some of you non-members have been raising your hands, so I've been writing your names down. So when we are no longer receiving hands from local members, then I'll choose your hands also. So what I said was Tuomas Palola was so convinced his doctrine was right.

That there's nothing wrong with this doctrine. And the brothers didn't attempt to go down that path with him. But the fact that he was causing unrest in the congregation. So, dear brother John has gone down the path, as he said, that if someone has a problem with my sermon,

They have a problem with 40 or 50 other brothers' sermons also. So John is a researcher in that sense, and he is wanted to construct a perfect sermon on whatever text that he has chosen. And I suppose he considered a noble effort in some to put that much effort into that amount of research.

What is missing is the personal, confessional faith on that side. And I didn't say John is in the wrong doctrine. I pointed out that he's on the same path as [Palola] went on. Did you answer, Rose? I only have a couple of very short comments. One is that I feel that the former

They had already made the decision before they came here. In Jared's opening comments, he's hoping it doesn't go very long in appointing Jared knowing that he was going to be leaving at one o'clock as chairman. I just feel that they didn't give the congregation enough time

I also feel that we've always felt and been told from childhood that all these ministers have different gifts and sometimes you'll be fed by this one at one point in time and other times you'll be fed by that one. And I think that's true. I've been fed by all three ministers that we have here and I continue to be.

I guess that's all I have. Paul Pilgrim is next. This is a very difficult meeting to come to, at least for me today, for my flesh.

This is someplace else. For some reason, we're still here. I would ask that I believe all. I still go back to that. First of all, I would agree with what Russ said that I don't think John's on a good path.

That can all change. I think the concerns that we first heard, or at least I heard, was around the caretaking of John, the poor caretaking. And I said that only John can answer those questions that was the caretaking done with love, grace, and truth, or was it done with the spirit of the law? And I guess the answer I heard from John was

I didn't hear the answer that it was done with love and grace and truth. He pointed out two examples. And so I think for John's sake, I think it would be best that he would sit. I think for the congregation's sake, I think it would be best that he would sit just where I'm left. Is Pat Keranen here?

I don't know if it's possible to have another bike because it seems like there are things that people are saying John has said or that John is on this path or John believes this or John believes that. Rather than saying what John believes or what path John is, you know, can we ask John, are you on this path?

And he can tell us rather than us being told what someone believes that John is on this path. Does John, you know, the example in Finland, is that what he intends? Is that what he feels? Does he feel he constructs the perfect sermon? Rather than being told that's what he feels.

But this is the path that he's on, and John believes he constructs the perfect sermon. I feel it's unfair for us to be told what he thinks and what he believes, but rather let's ask him, is this what you think or is this what you believe? And then we can hear what he thinks and believes.

So, John, would you prefer to have a mic yourself? We do have one more mic available. Maybe a service director can get that to John.

This might not be a good example, but I mean, you could ask unbelievers if they think they're on the path to heaven, and they'll tell you yes, also. So I mean, while John can address some of these things, you know, we gotta hear from the congregation and how they feel about it, too. That'd be kind of my take on it. And as far as the frozen debate to go to a vote, I mean, that was fine and proper to do that. It takes two-thirds.

Two-thirds of the members close the gate. That's a very, very high hurdle. So you're not silencing anybody. If you're getting two-thirds, I agree with it. Minority, you know, I mean, if you look at Robert's Rules, minority has the right to speak. As far as the comment that people like to pick at, don't really warn Amy. I would just say,

If there's ongoing concerns over many years, you know, then they might want to have that discussion. I don't think that would come up from one topic or one time. Whereas, as we've heard from other former board members and ministers, there's been caretaking for many years with John. As far as

Identifying, you know, where people stand, you can kind of tell with their speech. People will mark themselves with their speech. I think they might say that in the Gospel. Well, I guess I don't know exactly what that means. As far as, you know, being a minister and with all the questions that keep coming up over decades, for the life of me, I can't figure out why John hasn't asked to be relieved

I just can't understand that. I would have thought that he would have offered that a long time ago. So that's all I have right now. I was just notified that pizza is ready and as of now we have two Minneapolis members' hands that have been risen. Do we want to address those hands or do we want to break for lunch? I'm hearing we need to eat.

Let's take, well, it's almost 10 after two. Okay, so the plan is we're not breaking for lunch. If you're hungry, go get pizza. Is there opposition to that plan that we just continue on? Yeah, I'm hearing for respect for the elders

Anybody eating probably won't be able to follow the discussion at the same time, so maybe it would be good if we just took a break, try to make it as quick as possible, try to resume. When it appears that we're mostly resumed, we'll just continue. Let's shoot for quarter to three. It's shortly after two. That's almost 45 minutes.

Okay, we're going to get going here again.

Okay, if we can all quiet down and resume our meeting. We'll continue on where we left off. We have a couple of names here from congregation members. So we'll resume with Evan Siljander. So I actually spoke last, so the next person can go now.

I [spoke] right before lunch, so. Sorry, my mistake. Okay, we'll go to Mark Lillet here in the front. In our previous public meeting that we had, or congregation meeting, I guess I was struck and still am struck by the discussion and today's as well, but

The thing that struck me was that when John made his first speech was that he started out with 16 years ago. And I'm not on board, I'm not privy to the discussions or the caretaking that's been going on, but 16 years ago means that, John, you've been carrying this burden

And it doesn't matter who's right or wrong. It doesn't make any difference. We need to take care of these matters. We need to speak to them. And if I have a matter with you, John, or with anyone, and it's been burdening me for 16 years or for 16 weeks,

I'm in love with that brother or sister who offended me and speak to them. And I guess that's the only thing I think we, or that's the beginning of the process. And if there are matters that can't be resolved in this,

What does it say? Bring in another brother to witness, obviously. And then maybe we need professional help at that point. And we can't resolve those matters. But I've been on boards where there have been

Offenses or problems. And I know that it can get toxic where then every matter in the meeting is a problem. And it sounds like that that's happened here in Minneapolis. Now, I don't know anything about what the matters are.

But I would say it probably doesn't matter what those matters are in very specific terms, but they are matters that need to be cared for. And our servants of the word are ones that we turn to to help us resolve matters too. So from those perspectives, I think we need to turn to one another

Next I have Anne [Vilkama]. John, I'd just like to tell you, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the church. Be obedient. And take care of your manners. For God is the witness to all that we do. And when we do sin, we put it away.

And what is taken care of is forgotten. There's one verse in the Psalm book 199. From his holy congregation souls have left to follow man. Others they have taken with them through the craftiness of sin. Unto them the spirit beckons, calling lost ones by the word,

Wounds of conscience left untended always lead into the world. John and any followers, please be obedient to the word of God. And also, can I hear the gospel? Okay, Jean Huhta.

In thinking of what Mark said, I agree that yes, John should have come up and taken care of matters, but if these are at the board level, how many board members are there? I'm sure they heard these accusations against him, and I wonder why, and there were ministers there too, I'm sure, on the board.

Why did they not rebuke these board members as well? Where were they? Weren't they listening? So, you know, yes, John should have brought it up, but the board should be listening to these kind of things within the board. Okay, Lorraine Kumpula.

I've appreciated the speeches and freedom here to speak, and one thought I had, and John might be coming to this too, but I just thought that it would be good to hear from him how he would feel if he was wanted to take a rest from speaking, just for his own self,

For the sake of his own soul, but for the helping all of the rest of us too. And can I hear the Gospel for myself?

I'd like to answer them from what I've heard. On these same issues that John has been questioned about, I would ask the two other ministers of our congregation, how do you understand this continual forgiveness? How do you understand it would justify it? And what is your understanding on these women's issues? I think that would help clarify this whole situation of the congregation. If there's differences between the way John

Mark Parks.

I'm going to mention about gossip and untruths that are flying around. We were out in Cokato a few weeks back and I was visiting with a few ladies and then they told me, I'm not going to mention any names, what this certain person has called this

Somebody who's not in faith told them about our church matters. And I pondered that for a week or so, and I thought, wow, I mean, this is serious. So I got to call the person who was involved in this discussion or whatever.

And so I called her up and she said, no, no, that was not true. That was not true, what was going around. So I had to call the person who told me and told me, no, that's not true, what they said, what's going around. And so she had to call the other people she had told about, but there's so much false rumors going around.

Bad things, bad things being said about people. It's just like, I mean, where is our love for our brothers and sisters? It's just like people are just like fighting against each other. It's like the government. I mean, if we have the Holy Spirit, I mean, wouldn't we put the best thoughts about our brothers and, I mean,

I'm sure everyone's goal is to get to heaven, so it seems like we really have to watch the gossip and the false truth. And can I hear the blessing too? As long as this is here, I'll also comment that each of us has this obligation to track down the false rumors

That's the end of my list for Calhoun Hill. Well, I've got to tend to raise my hand, but here I am. If you stop and think about, believe me, some days gone by,

Okay, I'll hold the mic real close to your mouth. Okay, we have some people in this ancestry that were great sinners.

I read of something that caught my eye the other day. Osama's showman to Los Boas by Rahab. Well, Rahab was a prostitute for the Moabites, at least. And that's the city that, uh, was just, uh, uh, anyway, there isn't any martial law in that town.

You know, which were Israeli spies, that they had the true God, and she was repentant, and she was also spiritual. She hung on a little thread out of the window. We know that to be a little thread of faith, a golden thread it was. But now, nowhere to be got.

David the King. And of course we know that David was in the line of Jesus' ancestry and goes down and on. But the only thing that was recognized with Rahab and some of these others that might not have lived such an honorable life as they've gone by is that they were friends with

This is the very start of Christianity in Ethiopia. I don't know the history of all that, but anyway, the understanding of salvation is not how much you know. Certainly it's a benefit to

Like Paul and St. Timothy, they are knowing the scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith, or unto salvation through faith, which is according to Stephen. It's good behavior. But that comes with God's gift according to the timing of the gift. Some have one talent, some have five, and some have more or less.

We're not saved by how many gifts we have or how it's been explained to us. When it comes to leg safety issues here, I try to keep my ears open. And I hear different things. Some of the things you hear might be true, but

They might be delivered in such a way that they like to overkill on their view of things.

It was this kind of experience for him to be humbled, and yet he was, you have to consider that he was some kind of a tool of God's hand, otherwise he wouldn't have been sent to Nineveh.

And then Jonah fell into his own ways again and he started grumbling and, well, he had to be set straight again. You know, how many more times after that he left, we don't know.

Pride, whatever causes all this stuff, and it's not unusual for us to be influenced by some of these things that are self-serving, or you really want to push your own point across, and in some ways you could be right but wrong, even in listening to some of what's going on here. I've detected a little bit of defensiveness under some of the pastors

I don't want to say charity to the enemy, it just doesn't seem like it, you know, rather than at all, but I'm willing to... He's fallen on a point, he just went through a different point, but he said, let's, that's already done, let's go on. Well, I think that some of those things, maybe

I have a love for Jared, and it's really hard to say anything about anybody but to create a bridge or some kind of an obstacle between myself and someone else. But I've heard it both ways.

In terms of personality, I don't think there's a nicer guy that I know. And as far as other family members that are in the spotlight, I can't envision how much more difficult it must be. Not only Janelle, but John, but Janelle's family and also Keith and Kathy and their family and everybody.

I think, and I think some of these brothers would be so messy in this one, I guess. I'll just take, you know, the guy from Rockford, I understand that he signed for the Preaching Post.

I hope that I can find somebody to talk to and have us forgiven, but I can't believe it's forgiven. Sometimes I think, well, it's been so bad, I don't know if I can even have it forgiven. I'll go to church one more time and see what I think. Like that, I find out where it could still belong to here.

I want to indicate that this is a daily woman. Even though there is such a thing as, like Luther talks about in the larger casket, and he uses the word continual forgiveness, but then there's attached to this is daily repentance. So it's not just a la-di-da-di-da thing like they would for a heretic's wedding and stuff like that. Sure enough, they just, yeah, we're going to, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. Well, this is not what this is about.

I actually fell asleep during one of my daughter's weddings.

It's wider than John or some preachers. But it has happened in the past where people have been given a risk. I remember, for example, now, I have a dear uncle who is through Eric's place, Peter Nevala. You know, he was very prominent and great. He was attending his work years ago. And he was very involved in

You know, some of the brothers, the different boards, they thought maybe he should kind of have a little lower profile, you know. And he took that with big traces. They didn't put him down, but he just took that with big traces. But I mean, anything that could

I think in all kinds of love, and I do mean it sincerely, for the sake of John and his family and his surrounding and his relations and so on, I always think that John would welcome the favor given to him. And I never thought I'd say this, but under these circumstances,

With these conditions, I agree with Ernie, but with this one background, that before I make this assessment and agreement for the love of John and his family and release them from some of these burdens, I would assume that you're not subject to them anymore. That it's not really a glorious job to be, you know, in front of everybody. I think it's difficult to be hearing people.

All over the place, from everybody. I don't think I'd want that. I've had criticism in my life. As much as you can deal with criticism from the unbeliever's side, then a lot of it always comes from a believer. That's really hard to say. Inwardly, because they don't show it outwardly.

That he's been found or that there's a guarantee of coming back or not coming back or this or that.

All right, the next hand is Emily Parks. While the mic is going to Emily, I was made aware that the original pizza delivery came up short, so perhaps not everybody had a chance to have pizza for lunch. Or if you want more pizza, it is available downstairs right now.

Alright, well just a few thoughts here that I kind of thought about here and there. I guess I just wanted to start with I was kind of confused and I still kind of feel a little confused when people make comments that are essentially indicating that we would need to make a decision about whether we remove John from the rotation. I mean honestly the first I heard of this was probably called a week ago and it seems like a pretty substantial thing so to be

Trying to make a decision on this ASAP now seems a little hasty in my opinion. And again, just coming from my perspective, I have tried to remove myself from a lot of the gossip and things that have been going on recently just because from my own life of faith it is definitely not constructive at all.

Now to be thrown into things, and maybe part of it's my fault that I haven't been as involved in conversations, but it seems a little wild to be making a decision like that now. Also, some people have mentioned before, but I'll say it again because I really believe it to be true. I thought about it, I don't know, the last few weeks. It seems like there's lots of people that are either following or defending various people

In the whole, I don't know, the whole area here in Minnesota, like there's not just here I wouldn't say. And if they're not defending, it seems like they're trying to defend. Or excuse me, if they're not following, it seems like there's like a defense, which I don't understand that because there's nobody on this earth that's going to save anybody here. So I understand the fact that we need to be on the same page, but to put so much emphasis on what one person said is like, well, wait a minute, they aren't God, they're not going to save me.

So, I just think that, you know, in talking with different people, it's time that we really dig deep and look at ourselves and ask ourselves, like, what is our intent of different comments that we make and questions that we ask of other people? Like, even, I know I've heard of the topics, you know, birth control, altering our personal appearance, especially for women, like, I guess those things probably are temptations and we're all people, so we're all

We've grown to that stuff, but at the end of the day, even in an area of birth control, every person knows what they're doing at the end of the day. You know what's going on. We all have a personal relationship with God, and so I think, in some ways, we need to take a look in the mirror and look at ourselves. And I know Pat mentioned this earlier, but when we have conversations with people, to not assume that we already know what they're thinking before they start talking. Like, just hear them out. Let's hear what other people have to say.

I get even just like on a personal level for me I'm quite frankly very tired of people assuming they know what I believe because of different family or friend connections that I have and you know one way or another and it's it just seems to me that it's happened that we really take a hard look at this and try to reconcile what we've got um I mean as bizarre as it sounds like sometimes I've truly gotten a feeling where it's like

You almost have to try to convince people to try to want to resolve this. It almost seems like people are like, yeah, but, but, but, but. It's like, well, wait a minute. Let's look at what's actually going on and to see how we can resolve this and just through communication. I just can't stress how important that is. And I guess just to go along with that,

It's maybe just changing the mindset and kind of the lens that we see other fellow believers with. Even if it's somebody that in the past, hey, we've had a conversation with them, but maybe it didn't go the way that you wanted it to go, or even it wasn't necessarily the most pleasant conversation, at the end of the day, we're both trying to get to the same place. Don't hold them in that same place. And I find that really troubling. But I guess I'll just end with

You know that another reflection that I just had recently is just to say that you know it's easy to say that we're humble but there's also a point where the rubber meets the road and we need to we need to act on that and myself included I'm not trying to point any fingers here I'm just saying and um I think it's to go with that maybe give up a little bit of the nitpicking and try to see the other person with the best construction put the best construction on the other person

And take a nice slice of humble pie, each and every last person, and try to listen. And I know in one of the first discussions we had here, I made a comment, which I still truly believe. It's a quote that goes something like this here. The problem with our communication is that we listen to reply and not to understand. Again, myself included. Can you all bless me?

Wayne Skoog. I personally would want to know how Keith believes, John Lehtola, clearly stated how he believes, and I want to know how Keith believes, and I want to know how Rusty Gatto believes, personally. Oh yeah, thank you.

Keith has his hand up for response. Well, I don't think you want me to start over, do you?

Very openly, I see the matter, and I won't try to reiterate those weak words. I don't know what Wayne is referring to in particular. James asked the question earlier. I guess in a simple form, I believe, by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God. And holding on to that gift, cherishing that gift, wanting to get to heaven, I endeavor to care for my life of faith. My many sins, my wife knows how sinful I am. And I endeavor to care for matters of conscience. With regard to mother's health,

Childbearing issues are very sensitive, difficult issues that we have discussed many times in larger and smaller circles. I believe first and most important to mothers and fathers is that they endeavor to keep faith and good conscience and trust God. Trust God above all else.

There are very difficult situations that are faced and health of the mother is important and needs to be cared for through medical means. It's a very sensitive balance many times and lots of prayer and we are left speechless and trusting in God and taking the advice of doctors

But yet doing that in view of keeping a good conscience. And so I don't care to get any deeper into that than that. Hopefully that answer satisfies the questions that are out there and willing to answer anything else that may be. [Don Lahti] wanted to speak. I don't think he's here anymore.

But he greeted me before leaving and then he sent me a text and asked if I would share this text here at the meeting. So I guess it's acceptable to do so. I know Eugene would have given him a turn to speak. Don understood what was happening with congregation members going first. So in spite of the fact that this refers to the speech that I made

I'll read what Don said nonetheless. I agree with what you said and also what Russ spoke. So if I'm gone, you can speak on my behalf. You know how I believe. It is his, that is John's, fruits that are causing the confusion. I think he has been defending himself. It would be good that he would step down on his own.

You should also say for me that people were not listening to what you said because you clearly stated the differences that are causing the problems with John. Okay, Risto.

I'm glad that both Florence and Paul brought up the issue of rumors. My wife and I have personally experienced rumors being spread about ourselves. We had a minister at our house, I'm not going to mention any names here,

After services in Monticello. And I had invited them along with several other people to come over. And while at our house we had a discussion about a lot of these same topics that we're discussing today.

I thought we had a very free and very nice discussion. I didn't feel like anybody, I didn't notice that anybody showed any signs of being uncomfortable. But about a month later, we began hearing stories going on about our meeting, how we had

We invited all these people there and we began peppering this speaker from Finland with questions, making him uncomfortable, him and his wife. And obviously when we heard this, we were concerned.

Did not want there to be offense with anybody and we would want to take care of those offenses if there were. So Daedra reached out to this speaker's wife who was also at our home and asked if we had caused offense to them.

Did we make you feel uncomfortable? Did you feel like we peppered you with questions? And the response was that we had a very nice discussion, that we did not feel uncomfortable. However, we did feel concern for your Zion there, for these issues. I know I spoke

I have a two-way minister here and I'm not going to mention any names about this. And I related to him how damaging and how hurtful that rumor was. I felt like the only concern was why were you guys discussing these things? What was the spirit of that discussion? I also

spoke to a minister in Monticello who had brought this up to the board in Monticello to discuss nobody came and talked to us and asked us about it he knew they knew exactly who had had these this minister over nobody ever bothered to call us however they felt like it was okay to bring that

Rumor and untruth up at a board meeting to discuss that. That was also mentioned to this speaker or his wife that it had come up. And they also were amazed that it had gone that far.

These rumors and innuendo and stories about people need to stop. They come from both sides. I'm not innocent of it, and neither is most people. We hear something, some juicy story, and we want to spread it. But instead, we should have this mind of Christ.

And call and ask or go and visit with the person who the story's going about and ask, is this true? Most of the time what you hear from people, there may be some truth to it, but there's things that are being left out

And now it puts that person into a bad light. It is not fun to realize that these stories, they made it all the way up to Canada. There was a specific, or a certain person that was up at Wolf Lake, and he brought up that same rumor about us.

And that you've been hearing this in Canada. I don't like coming to church and people looking at me funny. I don't think that's right. I don't feel like that nurtures or builds Christian freedom.

I know comments I have made. Some people have not liked them. And specifically the Minneapolis board made a judgment on me that I cannot teach Sunday school. Well, it's okay. I'm fine with that. I don't need to teach. But the idea is that nobody ever came and actually talked to me before it was brought up

To the board. I know the people that did mention it did say they'd had conversations in the past, but nobody has ever came and expressed any kind of concern over my positions. And it's this kind of stuff that keeps coming and going. It's just like this, we're going in a circle.

And we're getting nowhere. I know there was one brother that wrote a nice letter and was sent around asking about why we have these contentions. And in that letter he explained, or he went over each and every concern that's been expressed

And he suggested that maybe we take a little break and just step away from it. Let's forgive each other and help each other on the way. Instead of always looking at someone's faults. We need to be more forgiving. We need to be more understanding. I think we have all fallen short in this.

Including myself. And I'm guilty of some of the stuff that I've talked about now and I wish to also remain believing. I would just ask if you guys would forgive me. I'll leave.

Well, it's been good to be here, even though this is a very, um, it's always difficult meeting, but, uh,

And I don't know if I have much to add. I don't exactly remember what I was thinking when I raised my hand. So many things are spinning around in my mind. So please listen to them and therefore give in mind.

First of all, I would like to just clarify something. In the announcement, it stated that two board members have raised concerns about other board members and ministers. I know I'm one of those two that is pointed out in this announcement.

I would like to clarify that I have several times made a statement that all of our current pastors, speakers, what I have heard, they serve according to Bible. Their sermons are based on Bible. I have not had

Concerns about any of our speakers regarding their teachings. I think this mic is shutting up, okay. So I don't have any specific concerns about any specific board member as far as the issues goes.

But I have raised many times my concern how we as a board handle this issue. Risto's example is one specific item. I don't believe that that was the right way of handling that

Okay, it sounds like I'm coming out. Okay, so the specific items that Risto brought up, how he was not selected as a, let me just say, selected to be a Sunday school teacher because they were concerned about him. No specific concerns were raised.

Clarify or bear those comments that it's enough if there is a concern. You don't need to get indisputed or something like that. This causes doubts about our brothers and sisters. Today's meeting

We are here to discuss. And if needed, we are here to decide. That's why this board wanted to give the congregation an option to decide. That's why this is a formal meeting. We don't have to decide today.

We have discussed and we can continue to discuss. We need to continue. Our discussion should focus on those matters that are

Those matters, the doctrinal matters, that has been brought up a few times here. If we start with simple question, how a person gets to heaven? That is very core question.

If we understand that clearly, many other questions become a minor question. We should not focus on a person or people, what exactly they did or did not do. But I understand that this meeting

I understand that big comments make comments specifically to us. What I like about hearing today is that this meeting started with tension.

John tried to explain something, and I sensed, okay, this is my maybe wrong take on this, but to me it sounded like Jared was not listening what was said, but trying to point out where John is wrong.

This has been a setting that I have witnessed in general in this discussion. Once the congregation started the discussion, there has been many comments that I sense love

That's why he is important. That's why we need your help, that you would correct us if we are wrong or if we behave or do things that are not right. Okay, so,

I think it was very good that Keith raised these concerns. He has raised those previously, but I think anytime when we are tense and we might be frustrated and all of those, it's hard to hear exactly what is said. But it was good to hear Keith's concerns.

John responded to those concerns. I did not hear anything in John's responses that I would say was alarming or against how I have understood those items.

How Keith just explained the mother's health and birth control. I think that was beautiful that he said that. I didn't hear either anything. It's been Keith's understanding and John's understanding.

So we have to keep discussing and listen to open ears, just like many have been mentioning here. We also, one of the things that has been brought up, and I will bring it up again, that we would be truthful in our speech.

That we would remember the eight commandments. And what does it really mean? Luther explains it in a very lengthy manner. It would be, it's not easy, easier to read, but it would be something that we all should read.

In a very serious manner, he speaks wrongly about others. Simply, it's sin. Sin needs to be put to the wedding. And even those wrong words can be corrected.

So we have to carry each other with love and remember that worries are common destination. Try to support each other. Okay, so back to the purpose of the meeting. It was to discuss and maybe decide.

It seems that we are getting lower in attendance as far as the members here. Discussion can continue. Discussion has to continue. I wonder, this is not that I know really how this goes, but I wonder if we could conclude this meeting soon.

And I don't know if we even can make any decision with the attendance that we have right now here, so I would make a motion to, well, I don't dare to say this, but

To end the discussion today and arrange another discussion meeting. If there is no, this is a, okay, now I'm getting an area I'm not so familiar, but if we don't have enough Minneapolis members here, then

Do we continue discussing some other things? Okay, Olli, let me clarify your motion. I take my motion back because it was not clear, and I would encourage someone who can make a clear motion to make a clear motion. Okay, the next name is Karen Johnson.

So I just want to take this opportunity, Olli, to dispute what you said about the conversation at our board meeting pertaining to Risto. There was one member of the board that was voicing concern for Risto, so it's not fair to say that there was no specifics brought up at that meeting. Do you want to respond to that?

I think there were at least two who had brought up that, but I don't recall what were the specific concerns. Comment was made when I asked about the concerns, I remember one comment, and if I have forgotten others, please forgive me, but a comment was made that it's enough, it was about

A comment Risto had made in some discussion, but then I don't recall any specific what was that comment or what was the concern in a comment. And then a comment was made that it's enough that we have concerns. I just didn't want it left that it was a board decision based on no concerns brought up.

I'll clear it up. I have the concern because Risto said that he doesn't feel that feelings should be involved in believing or whatever. That made me real nervous when I heard that feelings should be ignored or not observed.

So when there's sin on my conscience, it's a feeling that I need to take care of it. Feelings are very, you can't ignore feelings. I was the one board member that didn't want, I was hesitant with Risto being a Sunday school teacher, being that it was brought up.

Finally, whoever is in charge of Sunday School. I don't remember exactly what I had in mind when I raised my hand, but regarding the question that we're here to discuss today,

It's difficult for me to say this, but honestly, it's hard to define or put a figure on it. I mean, I think that it's becoming more clear. I don't even know how to exactly define it, but over the years, you know, John's been our speaker, and I don't really recall much about the early days of when he was

Put up to speak and that kind of thing. The one thing that I do recall from early on, I was, I think, happy to hear that, you know, we were going to be getting somebody who had been, you know, taught in theology and had that background in original biblical languages.

To me, I thought that was something that we needed and would be a good gift to have in our society. However, I don't even know how to define it. I questioned or thought in my own mind if this was John's gift or, I mean, his gift of being a speaker

And I even expressed my concern or question to a different teacher brother and he said, well, we'll just give it time and often you have to take time to develop and let's be patient. And I said, well, that's good advice. That time will kill. Time always kills. And then as the years went by, I think there were

Real things here and there that kind of raise red flags a little. I think all of us, we try to be forgiving and not scrutinize too much, or I try at least. I mean, you hate to listen to sermons and be looking for something that you don't agree with or something that makes you uncomfortable.

And I think over time, maybe we've just kind of felt like, well, that's done. But more recently, I don't know. I have to admit, I have been concerned and troubled. And earlier this summer, I thought, you know, I'd like to talk to John at some point, but it just never really worked out. And I guess I...

And when all these things came out that the board was having issues, and in the back of my mind I was like, well, what are they disagreeing about? You know, there's not unity on the board. Well, unity about what? And then as it came out that it had to do with caretaking of John and some of these things,

On the one hand, I felt like, well, I'm glad that our board is caring for that. But I didn't understand why it would be a bone of contention. It seems to be like in all of our responsibilities in God's kingdom that it is

Things that aren't going right or if people see something in us that's not right, that one would hope that people would say something. But I guess that's a long way of getting around to the point that I would be fully in favor of giving John a rest if it comes to that. I think it would be helpful for John specifically, but for the congregation and Zion as a whole

I just feel like there's too much swirling around there that it would be helpful. That's my take on it. Okay, James Lehtola was next.

There's great disputations that what is right and what is not right. And Paul and Barnabas were asked to go to Jerusalem to visit about these issues.

And then in Jerusalem, they visited about these issues very openly. There was no finger pointing, there was not names called out, but they went to the Old Testament scriptures. And I think that in the situation of Minneapolis congregation, as in right now, and maybe in the whole with Christian America, what we're experiencing, that at what point do we make the decision to ask

Just like Antioch went to Jerusalem to ask for help. It seems like it's gotten to a point where we need to openly consider asking help from elsewhere to discuss these issues of doctrine. I strongly feel this way. To say that at the board level,

I personally myself, on some of the doctrinal issues, I've felt compelled, along with the Word of God, that I cannot go along with some of the understandings that have been given forth at the board meeting. And that's why I feel so strongly that this matter needs outside help. We need to turn to the Word of God.

And discuss these matters in love and pray that God will give us full understanding of these matters. Otherwise, I don't disagree that we should not continue the discussion. I think we should keep on discussing these matters. And I think it's very clear where my standing on as far as taking a vote. I feel that discussions need to take place and I know I talked with

I remember these ministers that have been over here throughout this time. And the exhortation was given every time. Speak and discuss and love these matters. And I believe that if we do that, then the spirit will open up the word and it will show to us where the correct answers are. But on my own behalf, I'm sure that I've...

I want to remain in the love of the congregation and ask that when I get to remain believing, my men can be God's people. Can I believe my own sin?

[Evan]? Well, first off, can I hear the gospel also? I mean, this matter has been discussed at length. It's come up over decades. We discussed it at our March annual meeting and the congregation meeting in April.

Another congregation meeting in May, and now we got another one here last day of September. Been here, what, almost five hours or so, not counting lunch. So I think it'd be appropriate to have a congregation voice on this, whether we keep the ministers speaking or not.

I was moved that we would take a vote on whether John would rest or not at this point. I was uncomfortable with all these comments about closing the meeting. I just didn't. If all the discussion has taken place, you know, keep pushing it out. I just didn't feel good. So Evan, is that a motion that you have made?

There is a motion to vote on whether John would rest or not as a speaker. It will be taken down however you want to write it. Is there a second on this motion? Cheryl?

The meeting did start with a quorum, so I guess it would require the proper amount of people to be able to carry on a vote. Can I get the mic to Zach? I mean, you know, if you're going to adjourn the meeting,

How would you do that if you don't have a quorum then too? We have a quorum to start the meeting. Would that be the only time you'd call a quorum? Okay, I guess I don't have that with me so I can't take your word on that. That is correct as Risto just said it.

Okay, so then it's a question, is it whether they're signed into the meeting or do they have to? Let's let Zach, he studies the rules, let's get his opinion. I guess the first thing is if we want to go to a vote and there's still people who want to discuss, we need two-thirds to prove that

You know, to end discussions that people still want to discuss. So that'd be even before voting on the issue. Second thing is, you need a quorum at all times at a meeting to actually run business. So even if you have everybody show up at the beginning, and 10 minutes later, you know, most people leave, then you don't have a quorum anymore. So in order to take a vote, it doesn't matter how many people signed in, it's how many people are there at the time of the vote.

Okay, so the idea came up that by conducting a vote that also tells us who all is present, if we have a quorum or not.

No, we can't do that because not all people that attend the congregation are actually eligible members to vote. You have to be a paid member according to the bylaws. So just to have a raise of hands might not be accurate enough. Okay, that is kind of the situation for us.

So the dilemma is how do we know if we have a quorum. Every Minneapolis member was given a ballot, so everyone should still have it. If not, try to find it quick. And then we can, by raising hand with the ballot, we can take account how many of us are here. Just an idea.

Do we have our vote counters to help count?

Okay, we do not have a quorum.

We needed 109, we have 100. So, do we resume? Okay, let's get the mic back to Evan. So you're thinking we need two-thirds? Is that what you're saying? The bylaws require two-thirds. Okay, I'm not finding that, so I need some help here, please. Okay, I'll find it for you.

I saw something in the back that was talking about changing the Constitution. We are not doing that right now. Okay, if you go into page 13, section 6, it's at the bottom half of that paragraph. The quorum of any meeting of the members shall constitute of the attending voting members such quorum shall have the right to decide any matters concerning such or property of the corporation, except that

To remove the pastor and minister, two-thirds of the eligible voting members shall constitute a quorum. Okay, that's understandable. Somebody was pointing to the section on the constitution. So two-thirds of the eligible voting members shall constitute a quorum.

Just give me a minute. I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to say here, but... First, can you block me? I can say that this has been

This is probably one of the hardest meetings that I've attended and I know that over my lifetime we've had great times of peace in general in Zion and this is very eye-opening. And I've been thinking a lot about these issues

Thinking a lot about, especially about confusion and wondering what is causing the confusion and I don't know. I mean, I can't come out and say that I know what is causing the confusion. I wondered if it is John that is causing confusion.

I can say in my heart that I truly don't feel that that is the case, that what has kept coming back to me and back to me is, you know, thinking about this time of peace that we've had and I'll be the first to admit that I've been sleeping in my sleep.

And I will be the first to admit that when these doctrinal issues have come up, I don't know. I didn't know. And I won't say that I know now or that I have, you know, the understanding. But what has come to mind is I've had discussions and I've read different

Not only scriptures and excerpts from Martin Luther and even from the most recent doctrinal book that SRK has published. And it's become apparent in my mind, and this is maybe only my ponderings and my opinion,

When these doctrinal issues have been discussed, I feel that there has been a lot of discussion. What I feel is correct doctrine, and I have wondered that why is there so much confusion?

I don't want to be kind of pinned down as being in opposition, but I have wondered that have we been, in this time of peace, have we been weak in doctrine? When we hear correct doctrine,

We think it's foreign. And I don't know if that's true. That's just what I wondered. And so to me, the most comforting place to be is then to go to God's Word and discuss with each other. And I can't tell you how many discussions I've had around Scripture. And they have been so comforting.

When I have had doubts, always God has provided comfort. It has come at the exact right time. And what more could we want to do than to discuss the way and journey together, these doctrinal issues, if there is confusion, let's address the confusion. Let's talk about

What we have been taught, and what, you know, I know that there's been, I have heard and I have witnessed, there's been a lot of delta, the faith of our brothers and sisters. And that has felt, that has felt so awful. It is maybe fear,

It has made me tremble. But when I have turned back to God's word and read and I'm by no means saying that I understand scripture or that I know what the Bible says, not at all.

In fact, I know very, very little. But I've just felt that that has been the most comforting place to be. And I cannot doubt my brother's faith. And by brother, I mean our brothers and sisters, anybody's. I cannot... You know, you hear rumors swirling all around, and I think very, very easily it can

I can very easily cloud my perception of somebody and I can very easily doubt their faith. And I have remembered many times the comment that [Evan] made in one of our earlier discussions that am I viewing a person with suspicion? Do I already have suspicion in my mind about another person?

I want you to remember that many, many times. So like Linnell alluded to earlier, my hope and my prayer is that we could gather around these doctrinal issues that are causing confusion and discuss them together as brothers and sisters and say that God will

God will bless those discussions. He is here with us and He will not fail us. I know that this discussion has made me very, very weary, you know, many hours and

I tend to agree with Olli's sentiment that maybe we can continue discussing on another day when we have all been renewed.

All right, that's been mentioned a couple of times to think about wrapping it up, but we have six names on the list. Five of those six names have not yet spoken. I think it'd be good if we could give them an opportunity. So if everybody's okay with that, the next name is, I apologize, but Aaron Karanemi's wife.

And that's okay, I heard you know anybody that goes to Minneapolis, and I've been going here for five years, so no worries. I've thought a lot on this verse with the last few congregation meetings that we've had, and I think it speaks volumes of how quickly our faith can be taken away without us even realizing it. And it comes from Matthew 21, 18 through 20. Now, in the morning, as he returned into the city, he hungered.

And found nothing thereon, but leaves only. And said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee, henceforth forever. And peasant-ly the fig-tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How soon is the fig-tree withered away? I thought this was such a good reminder of how the importance of preventing sin from accumulating and taking care of those matters when they come upon us. And how God, well, he's the only one that can quickly take away faith for those that don't treasure it.

Without that person even realizing it. I've also thought a lot about God has given each one of us faith and reasoning. And I've heard numerous times that it's like oil and water and those two don't mix together. And that, you know, there's a lot of things in the Bible, even a voice that a lot of people have said is, you know, I know so little and understand so little.

But that's not what saves us. That's not how we get to heaven. And if we don't understand something, we should just pray for acceptance. To accept that it is not my will, but thy will. And God, in time, will give us an understanding. And maybe he won't. My mom, in regards to gossip, she always taught me. I remember growing up, if I heard a story about someone, I'd quickly go to tell her about it. And the very first thing that she would ask me is,

Has this matter already been forgiven? And if it was in regards to anything that the gospel could have washed that sin away, and I didn't know, she didn't want to hear about it. So I've thought about that example a lot when someone has tried to tell me about someone could sell something at another thing and I wasn't there. I think of, well, could this matter have been forgiven? And if so, then I just ask that person not to tell me about it.

And faith is supposed to be simple, but we make it so difficult on ourselves. So just pray for childlike faith. I have lots of other things that I've thought about, but those are kind of first and foremost things. All right, next is Barbie Lieber.

I don't know all the things that have twirled about, but I would agree with Karen Johnson. A rest might be a good thing for John. I think we should continue to discuss, definitely, and I also think James thought maybe it would be good, and it's all in God's hands, of course,

To get somebody, maybe it would be from Finland or from Sweden or someone else from around dying in America or Canada. I think things will get resolved, but they do in God's time, but that's why we're here. It trembled me to speak, too, because I feel like my understanding is quite poor. I just want to have my sins forgiven, too.

All right, Sarah Lutfi.

I just want to echo what Karen said as well. It's very difficult for me to pick up at these things and my faith is so weak myself to try and defend myself to someone that questions it. It's very, very difficult. And when you come to

And you're continually not being fed by particular people or just in general, it's time to take a look within yourself and see how are my own matters and then look at why else, what other reasons am I not feeling fed? And especially in the times recent,

It's been very comforting that we have so many sermons from so many congregations available to us on the archives that we can pull up and I've done that in times of trial and when I'm going here or there or just really struggling with something or wondering why, why, why

On so many different things. It's been very comforting to pull up sermons from so many different areas and so many different speakers with no one in particular in mind to just pull up the archives and just pick a random sermon and have that feed your soul. It's such a powerful, such a powerful thing that it just shows those

Where the correct faith is and what the correct understanding is and how it's incredible that we share that amongst so many people in such a vast area. I feel right in front of Gina. I've had all kinds of that.

Rolling around so I can catch a few of them. I've been just thinking many times at a meeting like this, it's so important to remember that when there's concerns brought up about someone

And someone speaks about them, it's because we love that person. It's not because we're trying to pick on them. And I would hope that people would do the same thing if they had concerns. I hope that they would be brought up in love. And then, kind of on the same line,

If there are concerns, as you know there have been, if they're not brought up and they're going to be shoved aside, that's not love. That's not taking care of our brothers. We are supposed to be our brothers and sisters. And whether or not we feel, you know,

However we feel about different ministers' sermons, I think the most important thing is that we all want to know what's happening. And the reason that we're having these kind of meetings is because we're caring for each other's soul, not because of what type of service someone has.

That was one of my thoughts. And then just kind of a general thought is that I think it's so important to remember to trust that God will guide us in as long as we're willing to accept His will and be one of His children, be obedient.

God will guide us. We can trust that and it will happen in God's time that everything that's meant to be will, it will be.

For those that don't know him, he is a board member for the Phoenix congregation. He told me, Risto, I had to leave to get to the airport. Could you share my thoughts with the congregation? Greetings from Phoenix. I am sorry to know

I believe that the matter is to be fairly simple. If John is believing and teaching doctrinally incorrectly, it would be better to correct the matters and give them a rest. However, if not, it seems to me the concerns expressed would be based on wrong watchings and those making accusations

He stated clearly that he has only met John once and spoken briefly with him so he couldn't say that John's situation was like [Tuomas Palola] was. Further, Harri expressed again at our most recent board meeting when matters in Minnesota came up that since

He doesn't personally know most individuals about whom there have been rumors. He's only comfortable stating how he believes. Honesty in caretaking is critical. Okay, Russ has his hand up if you'd like to respond.

So from my point of view, it's pretty obvious that Eric got left with a misunderstanding. I never said that Harri said it. I said that Harri's experience in Jyväskylä reminded him, or what was happening there reminded him of what happened in Jyväskylä, where they could deal with Tuomas Palola. That was the direction of my finance. I never said that Harri said that John was.

Since this meeting was held with the purpose of discussing whether to move a pastor, it requires two-thirds of eligible members to be present at a quorum. If we don't have a quorum anymore, technically all we can do is adjourn or recess or wait for a quorum. I don't know if anyone wants to wait for people to come back at this point, so I would move that we adjourn.

We still have several hands for speaking terms. Do we want to adjourn the meeting and continue at another date? We do have another congregation meeting on our schedule for, I believe it's October 28th, so that'll be here before you know it. So let's see, raise a hand all in favor of closing our meeting at this time. Certainly looks unanimous. All right.

So if we can perhaps have Russ give some closing words. I believe all your sins forgiven, Jesus' name and precious blood. I believe all your sins forgiven, Jesus' name and precious blood.

Our dear Heavenly Father, holy and righteous God, we draw nigh unto you in prayer, thanking you for this day, thanking you for your abundant grace that you have bestowed upon us. We thank you for the free and open discussion. We thank you that you continue to bless us and bless your congregation. And we pray that you would preserve us in this begun faith,

Allow us to experience the power of your Holy Spirit and be assured that our sins are forgiven and we can continue believing as your children. Dear Father, you know that we have struggled over many of these issues and we will continue to struggle, so we ask that you would give us that consolation that only you can provide by your

So that we continue to glorify your holy name. And we say with all assurance, the Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us, be gracious unto us. The Lord lift up his confidence upon us and give us his eternal peace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.