Minneapolis Congregation Discussion with LLC Board Members, November 24, 2019

I was going to come anyway this week because I have a special occasion on Brainerd, you know, my wife's family, her mom. So we have to take this on Monday. And then, of course, I changed my mind a little bit. She'll be coming tomorrow, and then we'll go to Brainerd. But she did send her loving greetings. For a text, I'm going to read a few verses

The book of Hebrews, and this happens to be from the third chapter, the beginning portion. Sometimes people like to follow along if you haven't handed a Bible and got that habit on foreign mission trips. But anyway, it's chapter three, and I think it was the first 14 verses, and we'll read these in Jesus' name, again with this prayer that we would bless our meeting, our gathering here. Wherefore, holy brethren,

Partakers of the heavenly coven, consider the apostle and high priest of our profession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to him that appointed him. Also, Moses was faithful in all his house, for this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses inasmuch as he who had builded the house.

Wherefore, as the Holy Ghost saith today, if ye will hear his voice, pardon not your hearts, as in the provocation they did in the temptation of the wilderness when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works for the years. Wherefore, I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart, and they have not known my ways.

So I swear in my wrath that they shall not enter into my rest. Take heed, brethren, lest there be no hope, as many of you are on the way and depart from the living God. But exhort one another daily to all that is called today, lest any of you be hardened, neither deceit nor sin. For we are made partakers of Christ,

The scripture came to mind on the meeting this weekend, but also of our overall journey, we can say, in faith, because the writer of this letter, and I'm sure all of you, most of you, you don't know who the writer was, and I know you really don't,

It was written during a time of great trial. I don't think there could be any question in reading this letter that those to whom he was writing, wherever they were, were in the midst of a great struggle. And when we look not only at this letter or epistle that was written to what we call the Hebrews,

You look at the New Testament books, and these would be the earliest books that we have ever written, the earliest, not long after the time of Christ, because they were letters. And in most of those cases, the reason the letters were written was because they were very serious issues that it was Paul writing and sometimes

Peter wrote some of the epistles and so forth, James and those. There were problems because God's kingdom is a battle kingdom. I live in my life. And some of the other people may say, well, you know what? The years go pretty fast. And you can look back to the days in your life like I have, and it doesn't seem like it was that hard.

For you who are great dads, college to you. N-A-V-E.

He wrote more than two letters, we know that for sure. Because in his first letter he talks about a previous letter, which we don't have, it's lost to history. But then later on he wrote another letter. Yeah, there were serious issues.

The letter that this person wrote, we'd have to say, when you read the letter, it's not only clear that they were very, very serious problems, and he outlines them. You know, they were dull of hearing, they were tired, they were failing to assemble together, didn't have a purpose, but they became tired.

And in the letter that Paul wrote, one thing does, I think, you might say permeate or come from the whole letter, and that is this writer's love for those people. It's quite clear in this letter that he knew them very well.

And as Keonissi then writes in his recent book, he had obviously been with them, living with them, was probably a servant for them, and for some reason he was away, had been away for a while, was the reason we don't know. But there were very serious things going on in society at that time. One of them was the persecution of the Christians. And they suffered it.

Which is, I think, in some ways, sobering to the point of death. Blood was shed by the authorities in society in the Roman situation, in particular the influence of the Jews that were there. There were some of those during that time lost their lives. And we know that because

If you're familiar with the 11th chapter of Paul, what we classify as the 11th chapter, later in this letter, Paul talks about those common travelers. He starts way back in the Bible. Way back. He talks about the trials in their lives.

And he specifically talks about those because of the trials in their life and how God, through His grace and His love, protected them in faith in great trials and tribulations. What about Abraham? Well, Abraham, he was ready to sacrifice his own son.

And that's the theme of that entire chapter, by faith. And then the writer goes through, kind of progressively toward the time of Christ, and lists a number of different travelers in faith that faced immense trials in life, but by faith, not human understanding or great knowledge.

And he didn't really end, you might say, with the Old Testament travelers. Of course, the only book they had in those days, as far as God's word, was the Old Testament. The New Testament was in the process of being written. And they didn't have the kind of scriptures that we have. But he gets up to that point in history

Some of you might say it almost overshadows all those other ones as well. That we're living in the generation that the Hebrew writers were writing in and to the people that they were writing to. Was it one of the reasons that the writer of the book of Hebrews was away from the congregation

Well, we all know Carey Raisanen was suggested in his book. That was one of the observations that he's been trying to say.

It's very important, I think, to consider this, what the writer calls the cloud of witnesses. I'm sure many of you, the next part of the letter, the 12th chapter, talks about this cloud of witnesses. Those that had gone before Abraham

God called them back, and they had to receive the grace of repentance, and the leaders were there. They bowed, even after they received the grace of repentance. The bound of faith was there. God was able to, despite that little portion of the carry, carry you in childlike faith.

Apostle Paul, he wrote a number of letters, even in his letters, he compared, Paul did, the journey of a child gone to a race, like a book race.

And it was familiar even to those, for example, that were people who were, say, pagans during that time of the early days of the church. They came from a pagan background and different gods. And they were familiar with what was called Hellenism, the Greek influence on society.

It's not that the believing people were, the early Christians were involved in the games, of course they weren't. We know from Roman history, a book that I had studied, a history book, the people in Rome and municipal authorities were actually upset with the early Christian people in Rome because they wouldn't go to the Colosseum to the games.

Well, I mean, that's understandable. We can understand that today, a couple thousand years later. But they did know about the races, and the race of life, you might say, the race track, has been compared not only by the writer to the Hebrews, the Apostle Paul, but as people could relate to this. What about the journey of a child of God?

As Caleb describes in the book about what's in Hebrews, a common witness is like those in the race. They made it. They made the race. It's as if they're killing, copying us. Don't give up.

Fight the battle of faith. Those witnesses, the voice in heaven speaks louder than the blood of Abel. Because it's the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Don't give up the battle. Fight the good fight of faith. Not with this. Not with that. Not with our own reason. That's the first thing.

And when we give the foot off the path, our reasonable logic figures things out. First believing, as the writers of the Hebrews mentioned, because they got involved in this stuff, it's very clear, not only in Corinth, or whoever this other congregation's people were in Hebrews,

Or whether it was the Galatians or Ephesus, it was the same thing. Not through human reason or logic or doctrinal going on and on, as they say, endless genealogies. You know, think about Paul's letter, two letters to Timothy. Take the first letter, the beginning of the letter,

And the end of the book, the first thing he writes about to Timothy in that letter, and this last thing, is stay away from these arguments. You read it. You'll see. And it's not surprising that he wanted to encourage Timothy in that way. That's not childlike faith.

He knew that Timothy, who became a worker, would face these issues in his life and in his teaching that he'd been calling him. We have the same encouragement and teaching from God's Word today. In this part, I'm not going to keep going on, I'm not going to worry about that, but I do want to read one other part about this that we ran. I'm going to re-read it. It has to do with caring for one another.

And when you look at the letter to Hebrews, it's especially remarkable because this writer did not take his finger and point it in the face of those

Lightning through the Holy Spirit. That tone of speech, it doesn't cut off. It doesn't have a bitter root in anger, but with the love of Christ, it calls. With the voice of the Holy Spirit, it gathers and excites. Listen, he says, he's talking about a sweet tone. He says,

Where he says, after he quoted this part from the Psalms, I think it was the 95th Psalm, where the writer, he actually quoted part of the Psalms, where he said, about the wilderness journey, harden not your hearts, that part, when your fathers kept me and proved me in the 40 years, that was from the Psalms.

And it was a very wonderful, but sobering encouragement to the Hebrew people that he was writing to. He says, so I swear in my wrath, they shall not enter my rest. Why not? Because they rebelled against God. And now the writer is talking to that beloved . So well, he says this.

I am a part of it, departing from the living God, but exhort one another daily. I am the slowest. I am my own man. I don't know who else, but slow I am. I care for the most important matters in life, because of the only portion of it. But he continues, he says, while it's yet called today, lest any of you be pardoned from deceit,

What does it say about the very first murder? Where Cain killed Abel, Sid, Ryan, and the door. It's really not complicated. It's Sid. One meets your mother. It's unfair to our world. And it turns to goodness. And later on, the same way,

What's the event? It doesn't affect only the one. You sit there by many. It's bad. So, so quick to die out. I'm going to try. I don't want to. Isn't it wonderful? Even though as stumbling as we are,

Even in the midst of travel, especially in the midst of travel, now you can yet believe all your failings and sins, troubles, worries, for giving the name and blood of Jesus unto peace, freedom, and joy. Believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, the precious blood of Jesus, peace, freedom, and joy.

I thought about this and I did last night. The old portion doesn't, I didn't even see how else to put it down. And even this morning, so many worries.

I did think about, when I read this part about exhorting one another daily, he says, for Christ, for we are made, we, we can say today, the same way that he did we, you know, not you, or in a finger-pointing way, the right to the Hebrew said we. And here this morning,

Where we gather really around God's holy word. We, he says, for we are made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning, our confidence, steadfast unto the end. And though the cloud away us still calls, it encourages when we think about their journey, battles they fought, how God protected them, their cheering,

Continue, moment by moment, believing in that precious word. I thought about it when we were younger. I'm not going to use any names, but this is a group of us kids. You know, it was a time of battle in a number of ways. And in that case, it was a battle that kind of comes with teenage, you know, adolescent years, you know, rebellious and stuff like that. And I remember the old Ballard Church. Some of you have been in that thing years ago.

But at the beginning, some of the elders wanted to talk to us young kids. I remember feeling rebellious. I didn't like it. They were in love. It's easy to look back and realize it wasn't that easy then. But I remember one of the club guys, and then he got out and walked out. One of the young guys.

One of the elders, probably not five minutes later, came outside, just the two of them, standing outside the old church. He came up to the teenager and put his arm up. He said, little brother, we don't want to chase you away. We love you. We want to care for you.

Okay, a little brother.

When we consider that, we say it's the love, not that elder that came out of the basement of the church and didn't speak that good of English. But the message was clear, the love of Christ. And God has cared for the weak and the poor people also, and we have that confidence in our faith.

Loving God, his son who gave his life, and the teaching power of the third part of the gospel.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

A couple of housekeeping things to start with. Just so everybody knows who we are and who we have been, it has been recommended that we record this meeting. It's not being broadcast, but we would ask that

That they'll be here when we broadcast the meeting, it will be better. The other thing is that... The mic, the mic... Good thing I can't work this thing very well.

I wanted to also welcome all of you that have come here to help us with our meeting, particularly the LLC members that have come. It's been a joy so far to visit with you. We hope that in this discussion we can

All being led and guided by God's Word. I thought that, I didn't think this, but we thought that we should review again this introduction that I read at our congregation meeting. Okay, let's put a rough schedule for the day. That's good.

I'm not sure, but somebody will tell us when it's ready. We would like to, due to travel schedules and human frailty, conduct our reading until three o'clock, so let's aim for that three o'clock time today. So I'm gonna read this introduction that we read at our last congregation meeting. I also read it with the

The LLC brothers whom we met Friday evening. Through many months, even years, we've been discussing the matters of our time that are tolling our congregation in God's kingdom. During many of these discussions, we have not felt the unity that comes from a common spirit and understanding. We also have not felt that unity on the board. Our board discussions have been similarly divided as our congregation discussions.

It feels like it's been this way for too long. Some examples of the lack of unity. We have heard in Minneapolis and elsewhere there is long-mindedness. We are returning to the eras of the 70s and 80s. The whip is beheels. Sermons are long-minded, and when they speak

The Church of Christ is not being followed. There is a demanding tone from some saying that you must understand doctrine. It seems that the gift of childlike faith gets lost in academic debate. There is a debate over the relationship between the Word and the congregation and the work of the Holy Spirit when they should so seamlessly join together. Puzzling questions have been raised such as the following.

Does the serpent still contain the gospel even if its core message, believe all sins were given in Jesus' name, but is not preached? Some examples of quotes. There have been harsh and false accusations in speeches, texts, and email messages, some anonymous. Harsh statements have also been made in person. There have also been anonymous posts on the internet. There have been secret recordings.

And transcriptions of meetings that are spread around indiscriminately, sometimes being shared with those who are not in faith. The demand to attend board meetings and largely gatherings of boards and ministers by those who have not been elected to serve were asked by the congregation to attend meetings.

And then people moving from other Southern Minnesota congregations to join Minneapolis, some of whom have openly caused concern in their previous congregations. One recent example from the loss is that the LLC at the request of member congregations sent out a template for the congregations to consider an attendance policy of other meeting practices

Since that time, the board has been considering and working on writing one for the MLLC. An email of the draft copy of this policy was emailed only to MLLC board members and ministers. This email was sent at 6 p.m. on Monday, October 7th. Starting at 7 a.m. on Tuesday, October 8th, two board members received messages from people not on the board concerning the board meeting attendance policy.

This breach of common sense and trust by a number of our board was troubling. There have been numerous occasions that this has happened. And then, at our congregation meeting, we all just read this. As it were, an aggregation has been dealing with these matters for a long time now. We often haven't known what to do next, and have worried about running out of mission matters.

For that reason, being a member congregation of the LLC, the Board requested the support of our congregation to turn to the LLC Board for help. While comments at the October 20th congregation discussion were mixed, the majority of the Board sensed the basic desire of your congregation to get help and contacted the LLC. That is why we agreed. Don't worry about us, since that was

So, I have one more thing here, actually, too. So then, we also read with our LLC brothers, where we discussed this at a meeting we had on Friday, our last board meeting that we had on November 12th. So, at our last board meeting, we had a dozen or so unannounced guests,

Most of the recently joined members of the 11 LLC, and the topics they came to discuss were these among others, but these were the main ones. And brothers and sisters, I'm not telling you this as some hoping a tattle-tale, but more I'm telling you this as concern.

Or, or my own next soul. Because some of these things I hear and see, like I don't want to, I don't want to lose the way, I don't want to go off the trail. So, MLLC board members have grown in themselves. The board has always kept their duties in calling the LLC for help.

Some thought it would be better to continue discussions to see if we understand all these doctrinal subjects of sanctity within just our congregation. The Lord is not listening to the congregation's wishes and calling for help. And you may remember we did not vote on that.

There were these questions about Keith. That Keith has taken too much on himself and thus is a problem in himself. Keith has instigated the Wolf Lake meetings. Keith is the antagonist that has caused these matters to fester. John and Janelle Lehtola have been victims of spiritual violence.

It was pretty clear that these people that came to visit us said that the Lord should, because of these offenses, step down and resign.

I'm almost done here. I can tell you that. So, with that, I would give you a little rundown of my feelings from our meeting on Friday the 11th of February.

We met with the LLC brothers Friday evening although one of our board was present. Of those of our board that were present, all vote once spoke and expressed their thoughts and feelings regarding board and congregation difficulties. The discussion was uplifting and encouraging and the gospel was abundantly preached.

The LLC brothers encouraged us this way, that they felt the Holy Spirit in our comments and in our discussion. And with those brothers, we felt one memory, the unity of faith. So, for today,

I encourage all of you to feel free to speak what's on your mind. It's important that this is God's communication and this is where the care is. Come to the discussion with a humble heart and mind. And then trust that the Holy Spirit is with us here and will lead and guide us if we can humble ourselves to obedience.

Finally, we pray that through the gospel, we can once again experience that unity with our congregation. And then, yesterday at the MDVAC meeting with the Western Area Board of the Nation, there was a great work presentation, and I'm honored to be a part of this Bible portion that he used.

And this is my prayer and the prayer of that year that says this way, behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity.

It is like the precious ointment on the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard, that went down to the skirts of his garments, as the dew of the paramount, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion. For there the Lord commanded the blessing, even light forevermore.

So, with these comments, once again, I'm touched that so many came to be our experts and to help. And welcome to you all, and with that, you can go.

I just wanted to say before we start, before all of you, if you have any doubts, I'd like to have that forgiven. I'll try to do my best with remembering who everyone's names are, but Jess, I believe, has a mic.

And I'll write down names as we go. Just a comment to state your name before you start. Dennis Johnson. So I'd like to just thank John for coming. It was a very nice opening. And thank you, Mike.

So it's nice to be a part of the golden candlestick, God's kingdom. And I've heard, I think, from a minister, maybe several, that has mentioned that

Having the gift of faith is like having, being gifted a treasure chest. And this treasure chest is, the core is this faith, believing that Jesus died for your sins, and this grace from unmerited favor that we've been gifted.

And then within this treasure chest, there's lots of wonderful treasures. The Bible, sermons, gathering at church, covenant of baptism, reunions, singing songs, fellowship, camps, publications, other believers in different countries. So all of these different treasures vary

And God created everyone different. Some people have beautiful singing voices, and some people have great intellect, and being able to read the Bible and understand other people, maybe have good common sense, and there's all these different treasures in this chest, and each one of us has

Some stronger gifts in some areas and weaker in others and other areas. And so we look inside this treasure chest and gravitate towards maybe what God created as our gifted areas. And so we shouldn't criticize someone that is really gifted in some area. Maybe it's just simple common sense and critical

All these different gifts that we have.

We spend possibly a couple decades criticizing each other, micromanaging, analyzing, but we won't fall away from the first love, faith.

First, the fruit of faith is love, charity, kindness, and weakness, long-suffering, and then the opposite is hatred, anger, envy, jealousy, heresy, love of money, and all those things. I just think that

It's nice that so many people showed up and to add on, I'm happy to hear what other people have to say. I feel fortunate that I've never met anyone that's fallen back into the old paths of

A heresy of 100 years ago that dealt with this polarism, like John Fuller or something, promoting this once a believer, always a believer. That created a schism. Or we go further back, maybe the first original church of New Testament Catholic Church, falling back into

I think we all, I haven't met anyone that has said that one of these treasures in this treasure chest is actually going to get them to heaven. Reading the Bible, the intellect of God's word.

Allow them to enter heaven. We know as believers that believing in God through Jesus Christ is what will get us home. We're just visitors here. We get too wound up with any one thing and focus on the cross. And as we look at the cross, we see it's empty because he's not here physically, but spiritually he's here.

I am just happy to be here. It's always been a wonderful place to gather, and so I don't have to take up enough time. Thanks, Seth. Our system's a little weak today. I'd like to remind people to hold their phones. Over here.

That's good.

Over here. I should have worn my glasses today. I just also want to thank everyone, the board members for taking time and supporting us here today, and also supporting the campus board for

It's under here. It's under here. It's under here.

Yeah, I don't feel comfortable speaking, but since it's affected us board members so much over recent times, hearing about the lack of trust for the board, hearing about how perhaps the speakers in the congregation or board has veered away from God's word,

And that love is missing from the congregation. We'd like to hear more discussion from those that feel that way. Perhaps, you know, try to resolve some of those issues.

Dennis Johnson. I think the key is to go to God's Word, and when God's Word says that confess your faults one to another, that's the thing that I have always wondered is, if only man could just simply do that, confess your faults one to another and pray for each other, right? I don't know, maybe my nature is a little bit,

Maybe other people are just hypersensitive and they hold things in and they dwell on things. I don't know. Maybe.

I've had to literally confess my faults, my errors, to people that aren't even part of Christianity. Some customer said, here, if you get it down, hot, he said, hot. It was like, it kind of struck me, like, oh.

Yeah, I mean, so believers, unbelievers, the best are false. And they have to do that, man. It's not an easy thing, but with unbelievers,

I can't really imagine living in some kind of a hidden secret

I'm just sharing my thoughts. I mean, I'm not a faulty person, and I feel like, well, yeah, I, can you forgive me? I'm probably offended, some people don't hear, and maybe a lot of people, so can you forgive me for any offenses?

These are sections of the Apostles' Creed. So if you look at the Large Catechism, this is divided into three parts. You've got commandments, then you have the Creed, and then you have the Lord's Prayer. So this is the middle part of the Creed. This teaching is intended to help us follow the Ten Commandments. An entire Creed is in three articles. The Father is one, the Son is the second, and the Third the Holy Spirit.

So between sin and faith, law and grace, the commandments, the creed, the first and second parts of the Catechism. The Ten Commandments say the Old Man leads the Creed. The Creed teaches us faith and leads to prayer, the life and good works of the new man. So the first article is on God. All that we have comes to us daily from God.

They are who believe in this article. If we believe them in sincerity of hearts, or in acts that are important to them, we should not go above so highly. The final goal is that we have life and wealth, and power and honor of ourselves. And we're ourselves to be feared and served. And what is apodicy? Sports.

If we believe this article, it would humble us. It would terrify us. Daily then, we should make this article an object of mental and moral effort. To escape danger or difficulty, we should remember that this is God's dream. He gave us all things. The second article, Jesus Christ,

What is meant by becoming a Lord? It means that he has redeemed you from sin, from the devil, from death and all misery. The third article, the Holy Spirit. We're not given into our hearts by the Holy Spirit through the teaching, preaching of the Gospel. So that would never fall out of Christ. The Holy Spirit reveals and preaches in the Word.

Under the case, under the papacy, there is no Holy Spirit present to reveal each mystery. They taught that we are to obtain mercy and be saved by our works. They didn't have that Holy Spirit. It goes on that we are called together by the Holy Spirit in one faith, one mind, and understanding. They possessed many gifts for it. In one love, we were called to sacrifice a vision.

And we'll, you know, the second division, I mean, it also talks about the air and the spirits. It's the human spirit, the evil spirit, and the Holy Spirit. In this section, I'm going to talk about the Holy Spirit, with all the side for division. All appointments to Christendom have been so ordered that we should daily obtain life, forgiveness,

But no mere human wisdom can comprehend the creed. It seems a lot of people say they just want to go to the Bible. So no human wisdom can comprehend the creed. It must be taught by the Holy Spirit alone. That's just what I had in mind for that session. It seems like there's been some confusion around that. Those were some that provided some clarity to me.

Yeah, one of the questions that someone brought up, they said, why don't... Oh, they told me what happened. They wanted to know an exact answer. What is the LLC's position

Is there ever a time when forgiveness would not be free? And I didn't know how to answer that. I just, the answer is right in the Bible. Maybe they need to hear it. So I'm going to help us see what the position is.

Also, a point that was brought up, the concern for excessive law-abiding. I'm not terrible at all, but in my experience with life and with my background,

Education, primarily programming. The more explicitly one tries to define or regulate or guide how a system works, the more opportunity for loopholes or bugs are introduced, and I think the more we try to focus or rely on

All well-written laws are bad. I desire to adhere to the intent of the law and give you

The intent of the law is obscured or it allows people to, you know, follow the law without even understanding or even care about the intent of the law. And I would say that that's any increasing risk of a war that's determined by laws and rules and regulations and things that should be and shouldn't be done.

The following is straight from what's actually in your heart, which I think is what you call the intent of the law. So personally, I think that what we're trying to define or outright define where our mind sits is just another area that you want to develop in.

And I think at the end of the day, all that matters is each and every one of our parts. And the more points you try to bring up to define and establish, the more room for argument and disagreement can come about.

I agree. I think if we can just go back to that teaching that we keep faith like a child and it's simple. Keep faith and good conscience. It's too easy to get turned around in all these discussions or debates.

Yeah, I guess there's been a lot of discussions on Paul and Joshua as well. There's been a lot of discussion on all the points and trying to drill into specifically how we believe. It's been challenging for me, even in individual discussions, because

I don't have a super very strong understanding or knowledge of any

The thing that struck me there in other meetings that we've had over this year, some of the bigger meetings, that there's the Holy Spirit. It felt so strong to me in those meetings, and the unity felt so strong. It was a comfort to me that

I don't think I have the ability, man, to understand all the doctrinal questions and disagreements, but I could trust that the Holy Spirit was leading and guiding us. And I think, relating that back to the States, being that we know that there's, we don't have that sensitivity in our congregation,

If people feel that they're not in unity with some of these other meetings, and the unity that we've seen in these other meetings, then I think that would be a good thing. I think it would be good to bring those things up also.

I can't see the... Patrick Keranen.

You know, I've dismissed it to some degree that there's always some level, you know, Satan's always at work, so that always exists. And when I moved out here, you know, we joined the congregation, and we were doing congregational discussions, and I felt, I felt like,

This congregation, when we spoke of our faith, in matters of faith, the discussions were strengthening and uplifting, but when we spoke of each other,

For errors that we perceive others have done, then this disunity would arise. And I wonder, you know, there has been, I feel, some progress with these series of discussions we've had, but certainly not a lot. And I wonder if having group discussions about

Individuals is just a recipe for disaster. And should we be discussing more specifically spiritual matters or maybe more specifically for those who feel like there is an issue or they have issues, what would you like to see?

You know, not necessarily who did wrong, but what would you like to see happen that isn't currently happening? Because if we're going to discuss faults, we could discuss forever. We're all very flawed, and we'll continue to make more and worse in days and years go on. It could be a perpetual discussion if we're going to discuss faults. So, I feel like when we are faith,

In the sermon we all read last Sunday, I kind of helped to think, is there anyone who had any issue with what was said? And at one point, I feel that Grace summed up our entire faith in maybe a sentence, and I'll try to paraphrase it, that we're saved.

You know, by faith alone, that's what saves us, and we have this gospel to put sin aside and lighten our burden on the way. And, you know, who amongst us wouldn't or doesn't believe that? And if we all believe that, then are these just, is this disunity just a matter of

Sin between brothers and sisters that hasn't been put away. And if that is the case, then I don't think this is a good forum to resolve that at a congregation discussion. But it does seem apparent to me after two and a half years of seeing this that it just feels that way. That it's unforgiven sin between

The majority of this congregation, or even all the congregation, want to believe the same way. We all want this to be in the past. We all want a community. So what can we do today to restore that community?

It's just a comment I can make. I joined the Minneapolis Board about two years ago, maybe a month, and the first meeting we had was very eventful. There was a lack of trust between board members and, you know, as the years have gone by, it's been very eventful between the congregation and the board members.

What's driving a lie to trust? I don't feel I have an answer to that. Okay. This isn't an easy thing to mention. Not an easy thing to mention, but a while back,

I've always appreciated all the different gifts of the different ministries. Don't want to expound on that. We all know different strengths and weaknesses. And so, like I said, I've always appreciated all the different gifts.

And I don't know what I'd say to the minister if he'd pick me and take me down. But Jan was taken down. And, well, apparently, nothing really changed.

And so I can't help but suggest that maybe Keith should step down from preaching and back away and maybe the burden is too much for him. And then there's like all kinds of ministers in the local area. I think Rockford has maybe a dozen.

You know, Marcel might have, you know, beef or something. So there's all kinds of ministers. There's John, but Keith would take a rest and, you know, then let's just see how things go for a year. And they go great, and we know that it was a good thing. Pull out all the pride, ego, all that stuff, and just for the betterment of Christianity and our congregation,

Go with that. And that's just my thought and my prayer that could be exercised. And as Keith has said, that he's willing to step down. I've heard him say that in meetings, and I respect that.

Yeah, I, even, I don't know, over the last, from birth, I've been happy to be here, even in the last three years. Some issues, but I think, personally,

I'm happy that I've been happy. I think Christians are happy. We should be happy people. After all, you have the best gift on this planet. So I'm just thrilled to be here and hope things get better. God controls this church, so thanks.

A couple of benches up here, Jess, on the right. Here. Yeah, we don't have any ounces. I don't have any ounces either. I don't know what the problem is with that, but I think we're getting the tiles right.

All the doctrinal issues. But I want to get to heaven. I want my sins forgiven. And I don't feel like we should be arguing all these points. Just believe that every sin is forgiven. The goal is to get to heaven and not kind of analyze which speakers have this or which speakers have that. What congregation member is feeling how your own

There were two items in that list that we put out there at the end.

Uninvited or guests or extra people should not have had board meetings. That's something that's wondered about, a problem though. Never saw that in my nine years on the House or on the Board, that anyone ever should have had our meetings. We have nothing here to hide. Spoke at one meeting before this, before I was on the Board, and I...

Also, necessarily, I'm not concerned about the [unclear] that wanted to trust the ghost embers of the attic. God had placed them there. Certainly have any boats that have ever been there. I think I'm probably about four to five or six years old, so I can remember

The other item was the word, spiritual abuse, or whatever it was termed, but certainly never felt that on board. The discussion we had with our pastors, the care that was given, forgiveness was preached many times. The question raised was,

Pretty misbelief. I know it's kind of difficult that when you have a pastor that speaks open incarnation,

We should approach them privately. That's maybe true in some sense, but if there's something being said that's not correct, I think there's an obligation that the congregation needs to know. The enemy can come and cause great damage. There's a...

I certainly don't feel that my comments have been made publicly. And when you've spoken to public leaders, it's all about the way you take care of them. I would ask that everybody follow up soon.

I don't really want to point fingers, but the question was asked twice, why there isn't trust in board members. And I have two different situations. With Sunday school teachers, we're pretty short on Sunday school teachers. And three or four teachers, I'm not sure the exact number, were rejected for some reason. I think it was because of the

sexual misconduct policy for six months. Well, I was accepted, and I was only member for one month. And we don't have any sub, we really need teachers. I don't think we should be examining different believers on how they believe and whether they should teach them to do it or not.

And hopefully that's not what is going on. So that's one reason I can see where there's mistrust. And then the other one is inviting the LLC from the last meeting we had. I felt it was very clear that the congregation did not want to, or it wasn't that they didn't want to invite the LLC, but they didn't necessarily want to.

There just wasn't really a decision, a clear decision that was made. And I don't think it was anything against the LLC, against inviting the LLC. I don't think people have anything against the LLC. They're just, I feel like there should have been a more clear decision on what we should have done. And maybe Neville, instead of the board, making the decision for the congregation. And I don't...

As far as that decision goes, I don't know where I stand on that. I'm just making that point clear because the question was asked twice. Ron Simonson.

A comment that somebody had asked him, what is the position of the LLC on certain matters? I guess the question of who is the LLC? The LLC is all of us. And the board members of the LLC are appointed by them.

Various areas of the congregation out of the country to serve in those roles that they have on board. And the work is done in the LLC office in Colorado primarily.

But they are appointed by the LLC Court. Those members that serve there are approved by the LLC Court. So I guess the question that I have is, what is asked by, what is the position of the LLC? And the only answer that I can give

The question is, what is the decision of all of us? There's a lack of trust in the MLC.

Basically, the question is, is there a lot of parts of God's kingdom? All of God's kingdom. And I think when we get into these kinds of debates,

How we understand matters of faith, the question should not be what is the position of the LLC. What is the position of the O.C.? Thanks, John. I think we, did Cal raise his hand? And Evan? Well, Evan, can you raise your hand?

And to me, and if you've got a few comments, you can do it, because again, you're one of the quick people to get back to that. And I'm going to take a couple minutes. And, of course, it's always good to have my memory with everybody.

And that is what people want. It's both about, you know, somebody who's like maybe inquisitive, trying to figure out who's believing, who's not, what kind of doctrine they've got. Like to take conservative thoughts.

And so on and so forth. That brings me back to the memories of my childhood. I was probably born too many ago, but back in those days, in the 50s, my mother went astray.

I was at West Colt when there were issues from numerous times. And then apparently there was a man in Longfield that was at West Colt. My aunt's out there, my sister, who's cool, went to California for a break and went to Longfield.

They got quite loyal about that. And they would remind that, you know, they took that biblical portion that you greet somebody who is not a great doctor, not a great, you know, what is it they, you know, partake in, you know.

Well, and so they took that plea to the far extreme, and they think that it's somebody unknowingly, you know, in good faith, means somebody who's been better adhering, somebody that has a priesthood that doesn't make you an unbeliever, because it didn't kick them out of the grave the way it did. Well, I think that's just a problem with the congregation.

And so on and so forth. He had either the color, for example, of the heaven or the hell. But they were inclined to talk to one another.

But anyway, that's an example of a point

Some people are rather great. And, you know, like Susan said, I have to go over this.

I guess to start, some of these issues were, you know, in the air at that time. And when I, when she asked me to go, now this was a couple of my ways when I did it all, and some of them have been dying. But she didn't speak to me when I called. And she asked me, shortly thereafter, to come home. But even then, there was apprehension there.

I don't know where that came from, but as he was also active, I used to go on to the Minneapolis church. So I don't know where else I would go with my local congregation. I think it's the same. I don't know what problem with that question. And I don't know if it's captured well in the billboard. I don't know if it's done. But, you know, we all think that.

These judgments are whatever you want to call them. But I think it's good if we don't focus on people or questions and like fool around, like wondering, you know, like be positive with apprehensive minds, just accept those moments and others that are around you. And unless they're known to be a, like for example, the church biology, you've done so many and you consider him a,

But what's the target? The target is to determine the heart of the individual, exactly the way the heart of the person is.

Today, I'll be told again, I'm going to read the Gospels already.

Members comment on both [unclear] and LLC.

The congregation and the synagoguers thought they knew that the more time they spent in the cities, the better it would be. But not if you sat around. And everybody knew something was going on at the church meeting. And there were things like that. Or they wanted the congregation to go around just because

There's a congregation in Arizona where the Sunday School of Teachers tell their kids that they can decide if they want to go to a congregation or not because it must take place in their kingdom. And as far as, you know, like the division on the board, you've got two board members on there. But then this is going to do with the congregation and the board for a long time now. One new board member

As you said, after the last, the very first meeting after they had no meeting, I was asking how long it was that all those walls had been built concerning the circumstances. So for people to say there isn't some large ratio there.

All these board members just sit here scribbling notes that they're going to share amongst the people that think like that. That's one thing they told me about this group of people. Because I just remember all we hear was talking about the disunity or unforgiveness, and as I was reading in the creed here, the spirit calls for unity.

They have unforgiveness that is unbelievable. Of course, you've got a dozen people showing up at the board meeting. I wasn't there, but it sounds like they were railing on the board. Somebody was railing on me a couple of times. They all had a need for showing up here, and my kids go to Sunday school at Monticello.

The same member was complaining about, or actually they were happy with another minister's wish to go to the congregation. He said that a lot is there, a little bit of content for that person. They just give the same speech every time. And that person's in this group of people where they might say they got some conclusion on some story,

I kind of want to know what they're going to come here. At least the creed says it doesn't cost division, unity in the spirit. So at some point, do they have to repent from this?

We did kind of have a vague discussion on the sexual abuse policy last year in our congregation. And although I can't comment on why you were not elected to serve in that position, we did want as a board to follow our policy and not make deviations from it. So I can't comment.

So I agree with John's opening. And that kind of led to Patrick's comment about

When we're discussing these big topics and we're talking about matters and not each other, I feel like the discussion goes quite well. I'm just thinking back to the early forgiveness discussion that I thought was pretty contentious, comparing that to the one in September where I felt we were more unified, but we weren't figure-pointing on each other. We were just discussing the matter of forgiveness and not how this person believes or that person believes.

I'm just gonna say this and then I get uncomfortable when people start talking about these people are those people and making assumptions about how they believe or what they're talking about. It just doesn't sit too well with me.

It's nice to see so many people here who are interested in helping our congregation. And we've heard some talk about lack of unity and stuff, but today we have a great opportunity to help the congregation and promote unity. So in the full under two weeks of our Christmas bake sale, and I checked this morning, there was roughly four to ten new slots still to be filled.

So I figured I'd make a comment before lunch while we finally passed that. It was let us stand and sign up, she signed. So the bake sale, the people opportunity is not really a lawyer, but people opportunity. So male, female, young, old, we can say members and non-members of the college. It's a lot of fun, so a good name on the list is in two weeks. Thanks, Kevin. There's someone back here.

Someone else too? I didn't get the name. I guess it's been on my mind for people talking about trusting the board.

Now a little kid, my dad. You know, you have that, the person in the front of the church showing up Sunday after Sunday, Wednesday after Wednesday. It's good to go to church, but it doesn't mean because you show up every day that you're a believer.

From my understanding, he had said that even ministers can err, and I'll never forget it. He also said that servants of the word, board members, a man can err. And he had said that

The mission board all went into the last year seat. So I guess I just kinda, I'm baffled about trusting the board. Kids, always turn your gaze to Christ. Read the Bible. And we won't find answers.

And we'll find answers if we all go to Christ. So I guess my point is that I think that we should stop talking about trusting the boards, trusting other brothers. We need to trust in Christ and the Bible during that. We need to look at our own hearts.

I guess just kind of over the last few years, I've been discussing a lot of discussions, and kind of like Ben mentioned,

There are some, maybe doctrinally, some of those questions happening. And I've had discussions with people on, if you want to say both sides, discussions with people on both sides.

I had a very nice discussion with people on both sides of the page, and I felt like, oh, I'm in agreement with this person. I don't believe the same way that they do. Is that being kind of reassuring that maybe much of the problems that we're experiencing are leaving the students who are

Our own kind of weakness, our own sinfulness, and the Spirit does unify, but how much faith does anyone of us have? It's very, very small. It's very, very simple. I think the issue, the larger issue that can be solved is that

We look to ourselves and our winners in these matters and get past this. Some of the discussions that I've had with people, one thing I've

And we noticed many time after time that, very nice discussion, but then they started to talk about 51% of the government, the bodies they pulled. But then they would talk to other people, and they talked about the bodies on the other side of the baptizations. So why aren't you looking at yourself, and maybe the people that disagree with me,

And I just remember one of these discussions, I think someone had read this Bible portion, probably stepped out and said, Search me, O God, and try me, and know my thoughts, and see it through me. And he looked at me, and he said,

I think we need to pay it back. I think that's enough for us to all remember.

I think now, like, we're going to have lunch in a little bit here. It's a great opportunity. And, you know, a lot of times that church knows that certain people talk to certain people. Maybe it's a good opportunity to approach someone that you've talked to in your history with and you've close to them and loved them. Have a conversation. I think that would be so important. And I think that's something that's not happening out here. So I'll just...

How do you get your name? Alex. Alex. And we have Ken Raisanen and Sarah Keranen.

It's nice to see a lot of normal guys here. Myself, I've referred to this as one of my smaller groups, one-on-one or whatever. I understand much is coming up here soon. So, if you said that, I'd like to make a motion to adjourn the meeting until lunchtime.

Share a drink.

Sarah, community of Minneapolis, a bunch of different thoughts have been going through my head. Just like you, John, and I'll say to your brothers and to all of us here at Minneapolis, I feel like the last couple of years, I felt like we've been on this very go-around, and sometimes I feel like it slows down a little bit.

Certain discussions will come up when we start speaking again, and there hasn't been any stop button. We've been going around and around. I've often thought that one of the first signs of unity, if there's unity, is love. Can we not see that there isn't love, there isn't unity, even in our discussion today? Give me a moment to kind of talk about this.

And I want to make something about these references in regards to Keith. Is there one full-time pastor here that you should have thought for the last couple of years that

If he, if he's serving us out loud and he gets that from God, God is giving that to him. If he were to, you know, move, he could easily move and just leave the struggles that are going on in the congregation and go somewhere else, but if he would fully support that, as well as his children, that he's lovingly serving us, then if he were to leave, he would have ministered.

So, did you remember that also in regards to board members? You know, we've spoken on the work list before, if anyone hasn't heard it.

These brothers are placed, we put our trust in them, put them up, that we need to do as congregation members, remember them in prayer, that they'll do their duty, even if we're not meeting them. Certainly, if they had the option to step down, I think that they would all step down, and if we don't have anyone, certainly neither of them. And then I've also thought that if we talk poorly of them,

And I thought that you're putting sand in God's eyes, and you keep on doing this, doing this, because the congregation is a congregation of love. It's kind of the gist of it. I have kids of my own, and it's easy to talk somebody's school, and I grow up in Ishpeming, and God gives us, you know, faith and wisdom. It's like oil and water.

Faith and reasoning, they all go together. Just believe. Can't say it enough. Believe like a child.

An example from, you know, three men that were supposed to bow down to the golden statue of the leader, [Nebuchadnezzar]. I think the king made the fire seven times hotter than he normally would. When he threw them in there, certainly he was thinking that he saw the fourth person. When I asked my preschool students who was the fourth person in there, they all really quickly said, that was Jesus. And to our adult thinking,

You know, and when they came up, they didn't even smell like smoke. And as adults, we have the more education that we do, we start thinking, well, how is that even possible? How come they didn't smell like smoke? But to kids, to little children, it's so easy for them to think

Oh, they don't need us, and it's nice. I don't need anything more than that. So just pray to have child life saved. And if you don't understand things, because we're not made to understand everything, and certainly if we have faith, besides the mustard seed, we could move anything. We could move moms. We're just tiny little crumbs on the floor until they suffer. We must remember that.

Just pray to remember to remain believing, first of all, in ourselves and in our loved ones. And if we truly want to remain believing in God, then we need to stay. The lunch is ready. Are you going to address any motion?

I did not hear a second. I can't make a motion, but I think that all these people that have come to be with us and then to say that we should have a meeting doesn't seem right to me. So, I'm only one person, but I did not hear a second.

And so, I don't know what there is to address. As long as I have the light. You know, this is the place for us to speak the time, and this is the place where God can help us.

To say what I know, we have all lost, and the world's adjustment will take care of us, and the power of the nation can't reach us and care for us. And the reason that we're all here at this meeting is because that's what my first desire is, is that I would be involved in this conversation.

I don't want to be on the ground. I don't want to be on the ground. So, I'd say we should enjoy watching. Make it for half an hour, as soon as we can. We didn't leave ourselves a lot of time this afternoon, so there's still a lot to talk about. One person that my obedience is everything.

Yeah, I think, well, if somebody, after lunch, if somebody believes differently than Christians believe, they want to talk about it, I think that they should have the freedom to talk about whatever they believe.

And if not, then, you know, we've got a full church, for the most part, with the same songs at night, and their sermons and their stuff and themselves.

Those that want to have a verbal fight or something, they can hold a parking lot. That's just my thought. I'm just happy to be here. I'm glad everyone showed up. If you don't believe in Christ, then share it. I think it's good for us to continue our discussion and share what's on our hearts.

I think right now we would break for lunch and we'd sing 434.

Okay, let's continue our discussion from the looks of the paperwork Matt left me up here. We don't have any names on the list and if you feel that's not correct and you like your name on and you think it should have been on the list, just raise your hand and I'll add it. So feel free.

Sarah Lahti from Minneapolis. Hold it close. I just, I usually don't speak up at these discussions because it can be very intimidating, but what was really unsettling was our last discussion, congregation discussion, where it was asked that we invite the LLC board to join us. And if there was a unity of spirit, why would there be such contention around asking for help to help clarify these matters

I don't know, I felt there was a lot of support and I was in agreeance that we should ask for help because we get nowhere in our meetings. And I just wish that and pray that those that have not agreed or been in agreeance with what our board asks that they would feel free to speak up and say what's bothered them as well.

We have a hand on the balcony, Gary. I'm very timid in this turn to speak.

But there have been some things on my mind as the discussion went on this morning and the meetings that have gone on this weekend. And some of them extend back to the many meetings that we've had.

I've been able to attend as a board member now. I was elected this past spring to be on the board. I was able to attend board members' workshop in Monticello. I was able to attend the LLC annual meeting.

in Monticello. I've been able to attend a couple of southern Minnesota, or southern Minnesota and then a Minnesota or Midwest board members meeting. And the first thing I want to say is, and yesterday, by the way, we had the presentation that Ray kept was on unity and there was a reference to it earlier today.

And the reason we as a board requested help was because we don't have unity, neither on the board nor in the congregation. We sense that. It's evident in the speeches that are made. Interestingly enough, after the Monticello meeting, one of our members, who was a delegate,

The following Sunday, the Sunday after that meeting, came up to me and said, I cannot wait until we can have meetings like this again in Minneapolis, where there was so much love and unity of spirit. There was not finger pointing. There was thankfulness expressed for the work that was being done. There was a very, very precious presentation kept

by about the Holy Spirit. I think if I recall correctly, I don't recall exactly, but it was an extremely edifying, it was a very, very good presentation. In our board meetings, we have not had that same unity. It's just, it's plain and simple, we have not.

I'm just new to the board. This existed prior to my getting there. And apparently, and I don't know, I mean, obviously, I have asked people, I've asked individuals who have said that we are law-minded, I asked this before I was on the board, if me as a congregation member, because they said the congregation is law-minded. I asked

well i'm a member of the congregation am i that person said didn't really answer or may have said no now i'm on the board i see people coming to board meetings with heavy instruction to the board i as a congregation member would not have gone to a board meeting to instruct the board i trust that

While it was said earlier, speakers can err, that is exactly true. I think everybody here will agree with that. Boards can err, and that is absolutely true. You can look at what the mission board did during the 73 heresy.

Entire congregations can be in the wrong. Witness some of the congregations, I think if I recall correctly in Michigan there was a congregation that all of the men were out hunting during the weekend of services and the Finland minister wondered what was happening. Obviously that congregation wasn't in a good condition. So yes, we all can err.

A speaker, if he misspeaks, one of the things that a speaker often does in their sermon is request the gospel, to hear the gospel, to cover their sins and faults. And if they misspoke in a little bit, that's covered. Obviously, if there is a speaker who either in his sermons...

or in the advice he gives to other believers over time does not give advice or speak as the kingdom of God would speak then there's cause for concern some other difficulties we have on the board have been

As was mentioned in the introduction, notes being taken and then distributed. I have no idea what's on those notes. They aren't official. And I hope they aren't distributed, but I wouldn't be able to say they are not. I know I've never been asked to vet the notes that have been taken. We've had people say,

that they feel it's their duty to watch over others on the board. I've heard that from my own mouth, or from my own ears. I hope I have not said that in my own mouth. I am here, by the way, not to point fingers. I am not here to indict anybody or say I'm right, because I need the care of the congregation, every one of you sitting there.

I'm just coming to pour out my heart. It's been hard to work on a board where you can't get things done because if one person says something, another person says, that's wrong, you're going to lord over the congregation. We haven't even discussed it. After one meeting, I started getting text bombed. And I was getting text bombed

while I was at work. Real convenient. I don't know how it got, I don't know why, I don't know how. I do know that the person had a point of view, and I looked at it and said, okay. But to sit in a room with a bunch of board members and have people that were uninvited, which is fine, if they show up, they show up.

but have them all stand up or have some of them say, every one of you should resign. Is it every one of us should resign? Are we all wrong? And we may be. I may be wrong. I've tried to fulfill my duties as a board member with the gifts that God has given. They may not be much,

but I have tried I've tried to be faithful my own conscience I have to act according to my own conscience I have to I

I keep saying I, I have to because this is about me, because I need the care of the congregation. I need the instruction of the congregation. There have been decisions that we have made which we have struggled with, but I believe that we have come to the right decision. I have been accused by some people of getting my information from Keith or Russ,

which was patently untrue, if you believe it or not. I can't help that. If you believe me, you believe me. If you do not believe me, I can't help it. I'm just testifying here as to where I sit. It's extremely difficult when the board is not in unity.

It's difficult when things are done without even permission being asked or even discussed, is it right or is it a good thing? I don't know what to do. One of the reasons we asked the LLC was because they are brothers in faith. And if you do not believe that they are brothers in faith, that's fine. I can't help that.

all I can say is if I look at all the meetings that I've been to since I've been a board member and I will have to say with my work on the music committee prior my experience with the work that is being done and with the discussions I have had with brothers in faith in America as well as brothers in faith from Finland

as well as listening to sermons from Finland, I have to say this. When I need help, I don't need to ask anybody for permission. We as a board felt we needed help. We asked for the support of the congregation. The congregation said, yeah, you need help. And some said, yeah, LLC is fine. Some said, no, LLC is not fine.

In my heart, I had to go to a trusted brother or a group of trusted brothers and sisters to help guide me. Because if I'm not on the board, that's fine. I need the congregation of God. The congregation of God does not need me.

And I hope that you that are doubting or are angry with the board understand that. And if indeed you're not happy with the board, there are ways to let us know. I seriously...

I was asked to chair a meeting in the absence of the chairman because I'm the vice chairman. That meeting went very, very smoothly until the end. And then there were visitors there, and then they spoke their mind rather vociferously, rather strongly, which is fine. I mean, you know, we all express ourselves as we are. We're all flesh and blood. Forgiveness was preached.

but I'm going to say this I hope that every single board member who is here will speak what's on their heart and on their mind and if they have an issue with what I have said or have an issue with me that's good tell me I need to be corrected

I welcomed the LLC being here this weekend, not because I wanted ratification that I'm right, because that's not what these meetings were about. These meetings are for me to say what's on my heart and allow the congregation, the entire congregation of God, to be a witness and judge of that.

So I would hope that all of the board members would feel free to speak their hearts and minds. I would hope that the congregation members, whether you feel that I have been, I have done rightly or wrongly, feel free to speak. I pray, my prayer going into this meeting is that God would unseal lips. And this morning it was pretty quiet

There were a few speeches that were a little bit longer. I know that there's some illusion to the fact that this is gonna just be a caretaking meeting. In one sense, it is not. This isn't somebody coming in with an agenda and saying, this is the problem, it's wrong.

is a bunch of us sitting down together and say what where are our hearts what do we believe and how come we cannot have unity we cannot have unity because there are matters i don't know what they are but they are there and you cannot deny that there are matters because there are things that come up

Specifically, I'll say one thing that particularly sticks in my craw is the taking of notes in meetings and then distributing them without asking, is this correct? Is this what I said? I can't do that. Recording private conversations to be used against somebody in another time, I can't do that. My conscience would not allow that.

Recording sermons and then taking excerpts from them to use against. Taking things out of context. I can't do that. That would be wrong for me to do. And so here I am. I've poured my heart as cold and dry as it is.

it's been difficult not because I don't like or love the brothers on the board I love every single one of them without exception but some other things that have been happening have caused me to stress and so I hope

that people would feel free to speak their hearts and their minds. And I would take one more opportunity. No, I will not. I will not say, I'll rest at this point. But I hope that people will not just sit there and then leave and say it was another one of those meetings where they just talked about us.

That's all I have to say right now. Oh, now, one more, most important thing. For all my weak words, my sins, my doubts, my failings, my difficulties of not being able

I'm trying to be faithful, but I fail. Can I believe all of those sins and doubts and weaknesses forgiven in Jesus' name? Feel free. I don't have any names on the list at this time. Tim. Just a reminder from before lunch, state your name at the beginning of your speech. Tim Lottie. Uh,

First of all, I'd like to ask everybody, could you forgive me for my faults and doubts? Okay, when there's talk of law-mindedness, the law is only for the unbeliever.

Tim, can you hold it close? The mic is really weak. The law is only for the unbeliever when there's talk of law-mindedness. Grace is for the believer. Grace is when you have your sins forgiven, they are drowned in that sea of grace, never to be brought up again, unlike...

I keep hearing over and over again stuff that's been brought up back from the 70s and 80s. That stuff was put away in the Sea of Grace. If it hasn't been put away in the Sea of Grace, there's a different spirit in their hearts. And that's the way I've always been taught.

Once sin has been put away, it's put away forever, not to be brought up again. That sea of grace is deeper than deep. Thanks, Tim. Lorraine.

Lorraine Kumpala, Minneapolis. My thoughts were much the same as Sarah Lahti just expressed, that I'm happy to see brothers and sisters here who can help us. And from the last congregation meeting that we had when we did discuss if we should call the LLC or not,

There was comments both ways, but there was support there too, as well as those who expressed that they were reserved about that. But we did hear then that the board at that point, our own board, recommended that we

call for help and we're talking to the congregation about it. So as a result, the call went and here we are today. I'm just so happy to see so many who have come, our own congregation as well as LLC and surrounding congregation support.

And I hope and I pray that we as Minneapolis congregation can allow others, our brothers and sisters, to help us. And can you all bless and forgive me too. I need to hear the gospel. So Chaz, I'm going to take the list out of order. Since the mic is close, can you give it to Kathy Hornamey?

I speak as a congregation member who has sat through many meetings over the past years. And I feel that many times we are going in circles

with academic debates over doctrinal points, and we have just lost the simplicity of faith. And I agree with Sarah [Kariniemi]'s comments that somehow we need to find that again and find the joy of believing. And I'm so overjoyed that you all have come to help us because I feel like we need to be led by the hand out of the woods because we're just going in circles.

And I thank all of you for coming and I want you to give special greetings to your wives because I know it's not easy for them to be left at home and I'm sure they sent you with many prayers. And I pray that God restores peace and unity and we could find brotherly love again.

And for my many, many sins and faults, can I believe my sins forgiven? Can you bring it to the left side, Florence Parks?

Florence Parks, Minneapolis. I came to this Minneapolis congregation in 62, 57 years ago, coming from Wolf Lake. It's been such a joy to be here all these years. Found a husband here, and just oodles and oodles of beloved friends.

Some have passed away. For so many, it raised our family here. We came to Sunday school, day circle, Bible class services. It was just a marvelous, comforting congregation to belong to. And

Something has happened. It's not that way anymore. A lot of ministers have moved away, board members have moved away, congregation members have moved away.

It's just sad to see this. It's not a joy anymore. I hope people don't have mental breakdowns. It's been very stressful for lots of people. I remember before, well, different meetings we used to have.

It must have been the fourth in Newton Church, I suppose this one too, but so many people spoke their piece. It was whatever, this and that, and people are complaining about this or grumbling about that.

It seemed like when the meeting was, like, before the meeting ended, Elmer spoke. And what he spoke, he just kind of wrapped the whole congregation. He said, aren't there any sinners here? It was just, it felt good. It felt good. And I keep praying that things would get resolved.

It doesn't seem like they will, but keep praying to God that things would because families are broken. I've gone through this once before already. It was so fun. Can you all bless me too? All sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious brother. I think there was a hand in the back. Is that you, Lee?

Yeah, Lee Fredrickson. I'm not sure exactly where to, I've got different thoughts here, but we've got the LLC board here, and we've also got the MLLC board here. And I guess the question I have for the boards, and maybe these board members would speak up, is that why was John Lehtola taken down? I think that's a valid question. You know, the

The congregation and the board thought, well, if we take John Lehtola down, that'll solve our problems. It's actually gotten worse. In some of these other congregations, I know there's been ministers taken down there too. And I don't know why these people are taken down. I think their doctrine was correct. And please explain. Thank you.

Well, since I'm a board member, I'm going to cut in line here. That question is directed at board members. My personal opinion about John being taken down, it wasn't an easy thing for me to come to terms with, but it certainly seemed like the voice of the congregation spoke clearly in our meetings when we discussed this. It was a difficult thing for the congregation, I know,

It's too hard, I think, to pin it down to a specific, like a doctrinal error that we keep hearing questions of. I can only say that I accepted the will of the congregation, the voice of the mother, and I accept that. That's my position as a board member. So Anne Illa kind of had her hand up here.

and Ilocan in Minneapolis. This is so simple. Believe as a child. A child doesn't have any issues. When they have their sins forgiven, they are just as free as a bird. And it has bothered me for a long time. It's like there's another spirit in the congregation.

I know when I moved here in 1973, everything was just, I was joyed and happy. The spirit was there. But here I feel there's a wrong spirit. And according to the sermons, the ministers always pray that God open my mouth to speak your word.

And there's been times when a minister has gone up there, said the prayer and the text, and he said, Amen. God didn't give him any words. And I'm very happy to see the LLC board here and the other ministers around the region. And I feel like God's hands are around us.

And can I have my sins forgiven? Over in the back, Sue Germel. Sue Germel, Minneapolis.

We keep hearing the same questions over and over again. Why did the board take John Lehtola down? Now maybe they want to know why the LLC was involved. I don't think they were. But I think as a Minneapolis congregation, we voted and John was taken down. And I wonder if people that have issues with this have to maybe examine their own

I don't know. It seems like it can't be accepted. And it feels like, yeah, there's much discontent here. And it feels like the joy of coming to church in Minneapolis is becoming very dear. And it's sad when you can't...

I feel warm because he's going to church anymore, but can I believe my sins forgiven? Anybody else? Oh, Mike. Maybe I can try to speak at least my own psalm regarding John.

try to answer the question as I understand it that Lee asked. I don't remember anybody saying that if John is relieved of his speaking duties or of his duties that everything would be taken care of in the congregation. Maybe that was the hope of some.

I don't know that that thought was ever expressed on the board for sure. But that wasn't the reason that John was asked to rest. The congregation obviously was uncomfortable with where John was

There were many speeches at that meeting that we had. The reason that we voted is because John said that he wouldn't step down, but would only rest if the congregation so moved.

And the congregation, I believe, lovingly spoke at that meeting, including his own father, asking John to rest. And we did vote because that was our only option. And the congregation clearly spoke that they thought John should rest.

Like Eugene said, the congregation has spoken. I want to support that decision. I want to put that behind me and trust that God spoke and moved in his congregation. Dennis? I'd like to share...

unfortunate, unpleasant, uncomfortable experience that I had that might bring some clarity within six months of today.

I had a long visit over three days with an individual that has large family, different congregation than our congregation here in Minneapolis. And we were kind of going around in circles

and about our foundation of faith. And I prayed to God that God could simplify his understanding and my understanding so that it could be condensed down to just a short sentence, perhaps less than seven words.

And the next morning, after our long discussion, I visited with him and I asked him that does he believe that he is acceptable to God

by faith through grace, and he boldly told me that he doesn't, that he believes that he's saved by faith and confession. And I was very troubled, and I thought that it would be good

you know, if he felt so deeply convicted, rejecting God's word, but

maybe perhaps based off his foundation of faith, he apparently feels very strongly convicted. So I asked him that, are you comfortable with me sharing with others that your salvation isn't solely through Christ? And he said that absolutely, that...

And I rebuked him. And the next day we visited, this is the third day, and he was as deeply convicted as the other two days.

tried to very much explain that all of these supports that we treasure are huge supports, but they're not an equal to what Christ did for us. And that I...

I think we all have our faultiness and maybe we have tendencies to treasure one gift more than another. And I had this mind, this thought that, you know, he might, you know, fault an heir, you know, treasure the gift of confession.

You know, more than he, maybe he's ignorant of his understanding, and I mentioned that I believe heresy is wrong teaching, and the physical separation is a byproduct of heresy, of wrong teachings based off of the living congregation teaching.

church and that there hasn't been a physical separation and that we're not saved by perfect understanding and I know you're very confident with your position of your foundation of your faith but I'm wondering if you I told him that I

feel comfortable greeting you after both of us have proclaimed that our foundation of faith is different it's not we're not i'm grounded solely on the foundation of christ the rock cornerstone of faith and you know you have put an addition onto christ and so based off that our foundations are different

but I still desire to greet you and pray for you, but what are your thoughts about greeting me? And he said that he can't greet me. I told him that, well, that's...

I have to respect that. So that's unfortunate. So it was really a sad, unpleasant situation. And I have to say that I was really uplifted with Florence Parks' thoughts. I had the same thoughts. And even...

remembering elmer's closing thoughts they were always kind of uplifting and he always had that warm loving voice that unified us sinful people and um so i think that when ministers some bold ministers have

It's from the pulpit there. Throughout North America, boldly stating that there's heresy amongst us, there's wolves in sheep's clothing. And a lot of that talk is really dividing families. And if these men, bold men that speak like that, if they continue their movements,

It will divide more and more families because, you know, some have said, and I think that's maybe their faultiness, that they're not the shepherds. Christ is the shepherd. But they sometimes naturally feel responsibility of, which is natural that, you know, in us families,

members of god's kingdom naturally at different levels have a different um kind of um how could i say it willingness to um carry out these behave in the way that they're instructed and so

You know, like I think the fellow that I visited with, he probably is just a product of his environment, and he probably was just deciding to, you know, prune, in his mind, prune me off from the living vine. I don't want to dwell on this, but I think it could be possibly a core issue with some

And yeah, but with all this kind of turmoil and even that really sad situation that I experienced, it took me a couple of months actually to recover from that. But I mean, I think all this stuff kind of can actually exercise one's senses in how we believe.

You know, like 10 years ago, I don't know if I would have really even been able to say to a stranger how I believe. Today, I think I could give maybe an answer that would be more edifying for living Christianity. Okay, Pat [Kariniemi]? Okay.

I think Denny's story that he laid is, and I don't want to make too many assumptions of those conversations that he had, but it feels similar to what I've seen again and again, where you have two people discussing faith,

And rather than attempting to understand the other's faith from a standpoint of a humble, hungry heart, I guess more specifically, I'm kind of babbling here, but

If someone is very, very dependent on confession as a gift that we have to help us on this way, in a practical sense, they may believe that they could not get to heaven without that.

technically were saved by faith alone. We all know this. None of us here, when we hear a brother and sister in faith that has passed, stop and think, oh, when was the last time they had their sins forgiven? I hope it was recent enough that they'll make it to heaven. I don't believe anyone would have had that thought or that anyone would think, well, when was the last time they confessed? I hope it was recent enough that they could make it to heaven. No, we all understand that

That it's our faith, it's grace that saves us. And that's a gift from God. And as long as we are in faith, we will be saved. And there are some phrases that have been born out of this belief that I think are poorly worded. For instance, once a believer, always a believer. Or that my sins are forgiven yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Well, if we're believing, we're saved. And if we're saved, our sins on that final day are forgiven.

But that doesn't mean that we don't need the forgiveness of sins or the gospel. I mean, who amongst us here believes that without the gospel, we would have made it this far in the journey of faith? Who here thinks their faith is so strong that they don't need the gospel, that they will just get by in faith? Only Jesus could do that. So in our lives...

We live as we believe. But for some reason, in our words, we want to have an argument. An argument is the right word because it's just what they are. They're arguments. An argument that, oh, technically versus practically, yeah, you know what? For all intents and purposes, without the gospel, I won't make it to heaven.

If I don't have the forgiveness of sins, the ability to put these burdens aside, I won't make it to heaven. Is the gospel what saves me? I mean, you know, we're only saved in one given instance. But without it, I would be lost. But it is faith, like that Sunday school book, by faith that we're saved. And so if someone believes in their life,

That confession, without confession, they would be lost. For them, this may be true. Do they believe that without confession, all would be lost? Everyone would be lost? Well, no, that's not correct. But, you know...

We're all different. It's that treasure box that Danny spoke about initially. And God has given us different gifts to help us on our journey. And those gifts, we're not all going to depend on them the same. And faith of a child or childlike faith is what we all strive to have. But that is not necessarily the same thing as a child's understanding of faith.

and for some these doctrinal understandings strengthen their ability to believe it makes their journey lighter and this is good it's good that they found a way to ease the burden on the journey

And for those that their journey is easier with this very simple message of all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood, and as long as they believe that, they'll be saved, that is also good. That is fine. They've found a way to make their journey better. What's not okay...

is for one who is on one, I don't want to say path, that's not the right way, but has used this simple message as their easier walk to insist that others also have to use this in the same way. Or for one who finds strength in more doctrine to insist that others have to know this. This is incorrect. You may take strength from it,

But to insist that others must take strength from it as well is not correct. And we all have to start from a point of trying to help each other. And if anything we do along the way is not, as far as brothers and sisters in faith are concerned, if we're not endeavoring to help them,

I guess the easy way to say it is that any rebuke that is not done totally in love is by definition law-mindedness. I've heard many people speak of law-mindedness, and it sounds very law-minded the way they say it.

If it doesn't start in love, then search your heart until you find that love and start there. Because without it, nothing can happen. Okay, Chaz, bring it all the way up here to Patty in the front. I just want to remind everybody how we kind of picked a target finish time around 3 o'clock, so

Hurry up and raise your hands. You only have about 45 minutes. I'll get your names down. I guess I have to disagree with Dennis' comment when he says, bold men in front of the congregation stating,

I see them as humble servants of the word. They're speaking God's word, what God has revealed to them. And maybe we as congregation members and listeners should be hearing what the Spirit is saying through the brothers. Okay, Dave Tokman.

Going back to what Pat [Kariniemi] was saying, this is Dave Tolkien. That is true on the wilderness journey. God provided manna for all those children, and some needed more than others, but everyone needed that manna. Anybody else? I've run out of names here.

Bethany up here in front.

God's peace, everyone. When Petri from Toronto, time is ticking and I wanted to bring many prayers and greetings of love and God's peace for my dear home congregation.

Many remember you. As I'm sure many in Zion remember you who were amidst [battles]. It's so good for me to be here even though my flesh trembles and I bring so much emptiness even to this speaking turn.

But I also want to bring those greetings that they're my dear home congregation. We feel the peace and unity of the spirit. Our board is united. We feel trust and care of the congregation. We who also speak there. We feel when we go to the pulpit, we carry our

fleshly portion, sometimes we put one step in front of the other, but we feel the congregation carries us in prayers. And I feel the same way when I go to other congregations, I go to the LLC board, I feel

Those are dear brothers in faith. We have the same understanding, same faith, same understanding. It's so precious to go there. And we lean on the gospel for our weaknesses. I was able to be there at the meet with your board on Friday night. And when those who spoke

They spoke of what we heard here even tonight. All my heart went out to them. I couldn't imagine serving, being under attack and not being carried by prayers of the congregation and the love of the congregation. I wanted to stand beside them.

I wanted to embrace them. But all I felt I could do was pray for them, that God would help. I felt the same when I heard many here almost cry for help. But I also heard foreign voices here

It is so alarming. And all I could do is pray for those that are attacking you, children of God, here.

They who are not led by the Spirit of God. They who are in a very dangerous place. We need to be led by the Spirit of God. We need to be humble. We have heard so preciously here. We need to be little children.

the enemy wishes to break the love and the trust that we have between children of God. May God help you in this time of trouble.

don't have much wisdom to say, but we have heard so preciously that we need to believe as little children. I find it so foreign that there would be those, as we heard, would revisit the board unannounced

would have that mistrust towards the board. It's foreign that anyone would leave their dear home congregation to go join another. Why would they leave? It's so foreign.

For sure, we leave sometimes for temporal reasons. But that home congregation is so dear to us. That's where we're cared for. I grew up in the home congregation, the dear home congregation of Toronto. We also went through times of war.

We are living in peace now. There the enemy also attacked us. I see the same signs here. This trust for those chosen to serve, whether they be on the board or speakers. We fight a devious and evil foe.

the enemy of souls himself. There are those that he has won over and they go on to do his work. Oh, how God would open to them, for it's too late. God will take care of his children.

many precious souls here also. God will take care of you. May he also take care of those who are straying in the wrong understanding and doctrines that are not believing like little children. But I also come here with many doubts. Can I yet believe my sins for

Can you give the mic to Jim Frantti? Jim Frantti from Pelkie.

I've had so many thoughts swirling that it's a little difficult to collect them. And sometimes it feels like we can go around and around in circles and sometimes in discussing things, but I would share a couple of thoughts. One was that there was this question raised this morning about the LLC position on...

whether there's ever a time when the believers can't preach the gospel. And like our brother Ron said,

The LLC, at least the LLC board, it's not a question of what is the LLC board's position on things like this. The LLC board is not any kind of governing board that hands down doctrinal decisions or dictates. In fact, it's quite the opposite. When a person is put to the board, it's a place of a servant.

And Jesus said, who is greater, he that sits at meat or he that serves? And so those who have been chosen, they've been chosen by the congregations, by the believers. And when the congregation calls one to serve,

If we see it as God's call, we want to be obedient. Because how can we refuse to serve when God asks, when we think of all that he has done for us? But it's not a position of authority or handing down any kind of decisions or edicts.

And when I've been asked this question about is there ever a time when the gospel can't be preached, I've had to just stick to this simple understanding and answer that why don't we leave it in God's hands.

It's not man's duty to search the heart of any person. It's always our wish to preach the gospel. But God can close the mouths of his children. So how can we dare to say to God, you can never do this? So why not just trust it into God's hands that he knows everyone's heart and he will guide in all matters?

and not try to be so knowledgeable that we can say always or never or here's the circumstances or anything like that. For me, it's been so that I'd have to stay to that simple understanding. And, you know, when it comes to, for example, doctrinal questions or topics, doctrinal discussions,

I've personally always found them interesting. I've found it interesting to read writings from the past and read a lot about Luther's writings and others, for example, and it's interesting to me. And there's nothing wrong with discussing doctrine, but what bothers me is when the thought is that we need to discuss doctrine

so that we can understand it clearly and create unity. That's not how unity comes. Unity comes as a work of God's Holy Spirit.

It's not a work of the flesh. It doesn't come from us all having the same understanding. We all have different levels of understanding. We all have some things we might understand somewhat clearly through a dark glass, of course, but other things on which we may be very hazy and lack knowledge and understanding. That's not what creates the unity of believers.

It's the work of the Spirit. And it happens when we are able to simply and humbly live of the gospel, trust in God, and simply believe in the merits of Christ. Then the Spirit works that unity.

I often think about when I was, for example, in that last heresy where I was for a few years. And during my time there, I was very troubled. And I tried to analyze things with my own mind. In fact, I had quite a list of questions, and I decided if I can get answers to all these and clearly understand them, I can find which way is right. But it didn't happen that way.

In the end, when God led me to the home of an older believing couple, and I told them I have a lot of questions here I'd like to discuss. And this older lady said to me, well, we're willing to discuss your questions. But she said, I don't have very much understanding. But this I know and understand that my sins are forgiven and I have peace with God.

And her simple answer touched my heart, and it made me think that if God is now calling to my heart here today, and I leave from here without repenting, maybe he never calls again. And I had to put aside all those questions.

And I have to say, I don't even remember what the questions were anymore. Most of them I forgot, and the few I might have remembered, God answered in his time and way. And some he probably never will answer until I can reach heaven, and then maybe I won't even care anymore about those answers.

But, you know, even Luther had to say and acknowledge that there are those portions of the teachings of God's word that we simply don't understand and we tip our hat and go by. And so this discussion of fine points of doctrine, while it might be interesting, it's not what unites the believers. That's the work of God's Holy Spirit.

And then I have to say to my dear brother, Dennis, who spoke here a few times. And Dennis, I've always felt a friendliness and a warmth from him, which I have very much enjoyed. But these kind of accounts that you've given Dennis of this visit you had with this other person,

I don't think they are constructive to help guide what we are talking about here. We're talking about concerns that the congregation has, what has caused divisions, and these divisions haven't happened because of that private conversation that you might have had with some other congregation member. And when we have those kinds of conversations,

very often someone can say something and we can hear it completely differently. And then if we repeat it and we repeat it with the way we heard it, maybe we're not giving even a clear or correct picture. And so I would just want to counsel you, don't be so sure of that conversation even and that you were so right and this other person was so wrong.

It doesn't feel like it helps us here to talk about those kind of accounts. And I have to say, I was very troubled by the statement that there are a number of ministers in North America who speak very strongly and harshly about things. If that exists, I have not heard it at all.

The sermons that I hear, wherever I've traveled and at the summer services this summer, they have all been God's word that have encouraged me in faith, instructed me, comforted me, and answered to how I believe.

And I know that when we have visited with the Finnish and Swedish brothers, and they are aware that there have been some who have said, well, we need help from Finland. And their answer to us has been, we don't have anything different to offer. That you have to trust there that God's kingdom is there in North America. God's spirit is there, and it is guiding and teaching.

And our understanding when we talk about faith matters, it's been, I have to say, seamless. It's kind of amazing to experience how the Spirit unites, no matter where we are in the world. But the other thing that's been on my mind is...

It's distressing is that we have heard these comments or criticisms about local boards and I think it's happened here in Minneapolis that the board has been somehow criticized or

um because the board might make decisions that they're somehow ruling over things and and we have heard comments like that about the llc board

and his comments about law-mindedness, and they are so troubling. I've had the opportunity for many years to be able to sit with these brothers at LLC board meetings, and I have to tell you, brothers and sisters, it's a group of humble believers who only want to believe and reach heaven.

There are no lords over the congregation gathered there. And we have often had to lean on each other. We've often had to preach the gospel to each other. And we have depended on God's spirit to help and to guide in that duty and work that's been given.

You know, it is true, as sometimes has been said, that individuals can err no matter what duty they serve in, and boards can err, congregations can err. That's true. Of course, there's another side to that. They can also be right. But God's kingdom doesn't err. And that's where we have to put our trust in the kingdom of God.

And so it's important that we think about how do we approach one another? If we have concerns or questions, how do we approach? Do we go to others and talk about rumors or things that we've heard or things that somebody may have said to somebody else? Or do we approach each other

These kinds of criticisms, or I guess I would even dare to call them attacks against those who serve in certain positions, they're very troubling.

You know, I was reading from the book of Numbers the other day about that time when Miriam and Aaron, who had been given duties in God's kingdom, but they complained to Moses that Moses, does he think that God only speaks through him? And they kind of attacked him. And God spoke to Miriam and Aaron, and he asked them, are you not afraid to rise up against my servants?

And it ended up that Miriam was stricken with leprosy. And that only was healed when finally they were awakened to this understanding that we have gone wrong and we have erred and sinned when we have risen against those servants whom God has chosen. We are also rising against God. And they repented and Miriam was healed.

You know, we are all as God's children on the same level. None of us is above another. None of us is saved by our understanding. We've heard very preciously here today that we are saved by childlike faith. But dear brothers and sisters,

Let's not go round and round on these debates or discussions about the points of doctrine as if they will restore unity somehow. What brings each of us personally into the unity of God's kingdom is that we care for our own matters, that we put away sin,

Put away our own faults, those things that we have said or done that are wrong. Live by the power of the gospel. And when we are believing our sins forgiven, God's spirit does the work of uniting us into his kingdom. We can't work that ourselves.

And we can't convince anyone else to believe by our knowledge of doctrine or explaining so thoroughly doctrine to them. You know, when Christ was on earth, his message was very simple. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe the gospel. Jim, if you can pass it to John Stewart here next to you.

Yeah, I, you know, I've listened very carefully a couple times. I thought, you know, my old portion, maybe I should just crawl under a rock. But, say from the heart, I still have to say it's been good to be here. Even the old portion kind of, it struggles. And I think you each know

what I'm talking about. But I think if we consider even the discussion here today, for some reason, one thing has become, at least to me, quite clear. And that is that things can become so technical. And Jim,

Mentioned just a moment ago about you know in particular doctrinal issues to where these become Basically the point of any discussion to try and iron out these these dark doctrinal things and what is remarkable to me is In in those early congregations it doesn't matter whether it was Corinth or

It doesn't matter whether it was Galatians or Ephesians. It doesn't matter whether it was where Peter, Apostle Peter, wrote his epistles to the ones that were in what would be modern-day Turkey. Scattered all over the place. Bithynia, it's on the shore of the Black Sea. I mean, it was a huge geographical area for its day for that early church. But in all those incidences...

this same issue of not getting wrapped up in doctrinal discussions, which they did, there can be no question. Minneapolis congregation, I looked at the beams on this place as I was sitting here and I thought, you know, I use this, I use the, in some of the confirmation classes I do these overheads and one of them, the discussion has to do, the presentation has to do with congregations

And I've always had the picture of the Minneapolis church. It's been dear to me, too. I haven't ever lived here, but my fellow travelers are here. And I thought about that and how much God loves you and this congregation and how patient and loving God is. But when you think about these congregations, let's think about Corinth.

What did Apostle Paul use when they had identical issues? I think it's so clear to Minneapolis. The church, I'm looking at the beams right now. Same thing. The human intellect is so quick in all of us, every one of us.

to try to understand things with our own minds, and it can't be done. He says, and Apostle Paul warned them, you can't comprehend by understanding. You need the sincere milk of the word that little babies in mother's arms...

That word, the word that the little kid at home comes to Daddy in the evening. He said, maybe things have gone out in the home. He said, Dad, can you forgive me?

And Daddy blesses him. I'm sorry, I'm so emotional. But it's so simple. It's as simple as a little child, but unfortunately, even in terms of speakers, it's so easy for us to look closely at the [doctrine] or become an expert. We can't. We cannot comprehend living faith with human intellect

But yet, the intellect tries. And I don't doubt for one minute that you're like it was with the Hebrews. That writer said the same thing to them. They got wrapped up in it. And he said they need the milk of the word. It happened in all of those congregations in the early church in those letters that I mentioned. Whoever the Hebrews were. Corinth.

Galatia. It happened in Minneapolis. It seems so clear. These are not the issues. These are divisive issues. And I thought about my training. You know, I'm a biologist, whatever. You take these science courses, right? And one of the things you do, you talk about experimentation. The most simple kind, you do what? Trial and error. Okay, well listen, dear fellow travelers.

This is not an experiment. We don't try this thing, it doesn't work, try something else, jerk this person out. It's not an experiment. It's not going to help to try little different little tweaks as well as we mean with our own intellect to try to solve them, we can't. Jesus met with his

apostles right before the end. What, Thursday? Thursday or so? And he had a discussion with them, and one of them, it was Philip. He didn't get it. He said, just show us the Father. And what did Jesus say? He said, Philip, have I been with you this long?

You don't understand. Did he say, Philip, you're not a believer? No. What did he say? You read what he said. He said, I give unto you the Comforter, the Holy Spirit that will teach you in all these things. It's that simple. We hear the voice of the Good Shepherd in the congregation.

Debate these issues on doctrine ad infinitum. That's where it will go. It's infinite. There is no human answer on these. I know that there are those, and I hope it's the whole congregation when you consider this matter, that want to believe like a little child.

I think here, I know there are, as I've heard the voices of these, for example, these dear sisters who have spoken. All they want to do is hear the living gospel and believe and accept that these things that have transpired, for example, be very open about it. You know, with the congregation feeling that John should rest, trust.

Trust the voice of the good shepherd, the teaching of the Holy Spirit. You know, and I think I've been cared for so many times in this life. I mentioned earlier incidents when we were adolescents, but it was the care of the love of the congregation through the Holy Spirit that cared. Did I like it? No, I didn't like it. Not at the time.

But I look now, I said, how precious has been the instruction. And I've thought about it as a speaker. I've thought a lot about it recently, that if there were ever these words that was confusing to the congregation, give me the heart, dear Father, to take the instruction of the congregation. Let me rest.

I hope I would have that kind of a heart. But we carry so much corruption. I even now, for my worries and fears, I still need to hear the gospel again. Can you preach the gospel to me? And I also want to say to you, dear ones, that you want to just believe the gospel as a little child.

you can believe in the name and blood of Jesus, all your worries and fears forgiven in his name and the drops of blood that he shed at the foot of that cross for you and for me. So John, can you pass it behind you to Keith?

It's been good to be here. Thank you dear brothers who have come to serve us, LLC board staff members, as well as neighboring congregation brothers and sisters who have come to support here and help us. It's hard to put my

thoughts into words, but I'd like to share a couple of things. You have heard my explanations, my attempts to explain the questions that have arisen in our congregation and that have been mentioned here today as well. So I won't begin to answer those questions again.

and hope and pray that God gives enlightenment as he is giving through the many gifts that are here. I want to touch on

one of the fruits that was mentioned, fruits that is causing concern that was mentioned in Mike's introductory statement. And that's the fact that, as Petri also alluded to, the new members that have moved and specifically here now have moved to Minneapolis.

I would really want in my heart to warmly welcome you here and find joy in this that there are more members, more brothers and sisters here to fill the church and to serve God in this location.

I have to say that it's been difficult to do so because something hasn't just felt quite right. And I'm not speaking of everyone that has joined, not at all. But I know that some have come from other congregations where there have been concerns that have been

expressed and even in open congregation discussions there have been concerns and those don't go away by moving to another congregation and it has felt troubling to me how to view this when

You, dear brother or sister, have come and joined our congregation when there have been concerns in your previous home congregation. It's a sensitive matter and again I want to be welcoming to anyone that would want to come to Minneapolis.

but it has felt unsettling to me. And that leads to the question that Kelton asked earlier about Sunday school teachers. Somehow there's this picture that the board and Sunday school committee has decided that certain ones are acceptable to teach Sunday school and others aren't.

But that question of Sunday school teacher was already answered by Matt Jacobson, that we have the sexual misconduct policy which indicates that, or which dictates that a teacher wouldn't, or a new member wouldn't teach for six months. And that's one thing, a practical matter.

But joined to this, I think it's important to be very open about this, in the discussion together with the board and the Sunday School Committee, we felt this concern that I just spoke to, that some that have come from other congregations have even caused concern there, that how can we ask them to teach in our congregations?

There isn't any looking down on anyone or thinking of anyone as better teachers than others. But the simple principle that has been followed in God's kingdom, as long as I'm sure all of us can remember, that when we select someone to teach, it's a position of trust. And if there are concerns, we want to be careful and there's no harm in waiting.

And I want to speak about my own role here, serving in the congregation along with our brother Russell. Of course, it's been difficult lately. Of course, I have been very faulty and sinful, struggle in my own life of faith and struggle to serve the congregation.

I serve as the congregation desires. If the congregation sees fit that I would rest, I want to be obedient to that call and accept that and sit in the bench and believe and hopefully get to heaven one day.

And so I serve openly. I try to speak openly. And I trust that God's congregation, the spirit of God is here. And it will lead and guide. It's not my decision whether I serve or not. But I want to try to serve humbly. But I serve battling my old portion so many times.

And I know that in these discussions I've spoken sharp words sometimes, caused offense, weak words, and have felt my own dryness and resentful thoughts and you name it. And I just want to know if I can still believe my sins forgiven

But then I want to say to you dear ones here that I know I have a different mind. Most of you have not spoken and that's unusual. Our discussions of recent, you have spoken very much.

but for some reason you haven't spoken today. Speak your heart where you are. Confess your faith. God is providing this opportunity for us to be cared for and helped. Trust that God's spirit is here. Don't go away from here with a bitter heart.

The dangers are so real. These matters are serious. May God speak to us and touch our hearts and help us. Keith, can you pass the mic behind you to Ken Millett?

It's been a real joy for me to be here. My life began in Minneapolis. And today I've seen so many old friends. And when I do, it brings me great joy.

I have seen so many traveling escorts that I've needed. I wanted to let the congregation know that we met Friday evening, as you already heard, with the Minneapolis board. I took a turn to speak, and I forgot to bring greetings, which I don't know why I'm so forgetful, but there was so many that...

gave me greetings to bring here. They were loving greetings of God's peace. So many have remembered you in prayer. I listened to those board members speak. Only one of them never opened his mouth.

And my heart went out to every one of them. They all spoke with their psalm of faith and love. They were begging for help. They wanted to hear. They wanted to receive.

And I knew that some of them I had never met before, ever. And I knew they were dear brothers in faith. From heart to heart and faith to faith, I heard they were my brothers. I was sitting here thinking about what came to my mind as

Peace. God's kingdom is a kingdom of peace, even though there is a battle. During the battle, there's peace. Peace comes from God. So I did a quick little search, and I just want to read a few verses which are recorded in the first letter of Timothy.

I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplication, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and for all that are in authority, that may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty, for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior.

who will have all men to be saved and to come into the knowledge of truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time. But I was thinking about that. What brings peace?

The only thing that I can think of that brings peace is the gospel. The gospel can restore all love. It can restore all broken love, I should say. All broken love can be restored with the Gospel of [the Lord] if we can believe. And then it also came to my mind as I've been listening and I've heard from different ones messages of

that old spiritual father, teacher in our lives who was in my life also, Elmer Alajoki. I remember him when I was a little boy. I also remember him in my adult life. And when I was thinking about these difficult times, difficult situation here in your congregation, I remember a man that lived in Minneapolis for many years,

But we were having a discussion in Phoenix, and he was letting us know about an experience he had where it was a really difficult time here. And I don't think it was a congregational meeting. I think it was more of maybe a smaller group that were gathered together, but they had great difficulties. And he said, finally, after many had spoken,

Elmer said, why don't you all throw your own dirt on the table here? Put your own there. We'll wipe it clean. And what was left? When it's clean, there's peace. We all have to put our own away. And when we can put our own away, that will bring us peace. It may seem like maybe too simple of a message. And I know it's not easy.

But we just all need to put our own away and there will come peace. I also, listening to many messages, I found myself to be so doubtful and feeling my own sinfulness. Can I hear that gospel? Since we're going to do the name pressure on.

Well, it's after three o'clock. We still have eight more names. So I promise everybody that has had their name on a list, are we okay if we go beyond our desired time? Let's try to at least get the names on. Okay. So Chaz, give it to Tina Johnson. Did you have your hands up or hand up a while back?

I did, but it's, of course, been a while, and I kind of lost thoughts here, but it's just been good to be here, and I know it's been a very troubling and scary time for me, personally. I just want to hear the gospel. Dennis. Dennis.

I just wanted to thank Jim Frantti for his thoughts. He really summarized it quite nice. As far as faith, it's very simple.

As the scripture says, that he that eateth meat shouldn't criticize he that can only drink milk. And he that drinketh milk shouldn't criticize he that eateth meat. And so if we drill down too deep on any of these issues, we can lose the first love of

the first fruit of faith, which is love. And then in reference to Jim's comment, which I think was really nice, about me and the visit with another father, I think...

I'd like to mention this. Maybe just, it's interesting that when you're in the family of God, you learn. And I even shared this with this fellow that both of us are kind of bullheaded and opinionated and chances are really, really high that if he wasn't strong-willed and I wasn't strong-willed,

we wouldn't drill down and we wouldn't get to this point where we actually kind of create this breaking of love. And I must say that Pat [Kariniemi] had a really nice speech and

um i think that he laid it out real nice and i won't reiterate what he said um but i had a visit with one of our board members and it was a similar visit with the strong-willed individual that i had and um

I actually had a nice visit, and we left with this thought that, you know, he was very much emphasizing confession, and, you know, I actually believe that

as Pat said, that some may actually lose faith and actually fall into unbelief if they didn't hear the blessing perhaps a few times a day. And that's okay. You know, and

And so I, fortunately, because this board member of our congregation doesn't have this kind of obnoxious, bullheaded, opinionated personality, we didn't go head to head. We backed away from it, and I have a nice, friendly relationship

with the board member and I treasure that. So I think that it really is dangerous to get too technical and if you perhaps can eat a little bit of meat and somebody else can't eat meat that

lean on Christ together and be happy with that. I think all of us would agree that we don't want love to break. We don't want that. So it's a reminder for myself to not get...

too worked up or too serious and have childlike faith and i must say that i got married a little over nine years ago and i'm thrilled to be married to tina and i learned that you know soon after marriage

we have some very nice pleasant words i won't go through what we say before we drift off to a nice peaceful rest but we preach the gospel and we say some other nice things it's wonderful okay and and um you know and i i was just thrilled because i lived for many years single and i

I believed that Jesus died for my sins, drifted off to sleep, and I always appreciated hearing the gospel frequently and from the pulpit. But there were many times I just simply believed like a child and went to sleep.

And if Tina wouldn't have started this nice, pleasant drifting off to sleep, I don't know what we could call it. I don't even want to say you can use your own imagination. And it's just a wonderful way to go to sleep. But I was able to go to sleep peacefully by myself prior to marriage. So, enough said. It's just been nice to be here. So, Dennis, can you pass it down to Leah Lehtola? She might be on your same bench.

Okay, I have a lot of thoughts. First, I want to touch the point of having a free talk. There was an exhortation to people talk freely.

But then there was some people talked and I heard comments about having foreign voices and some other person was telling other person that you shouldn't talk about those things. So that is killing freedom of speech. So I hope that everybody can say what they need to say.

that we can have the freedom to talk. And I don't think that it's a man's task to start evaluating if somebody's point is more valid than others. Everybody here should be as valued as the other. And the same note,

I don't think that that belongs to man to start evaluating the condition of somebody's heart. But I think that if a person wants to be believed in, and if that's good enough for God, I think that should be good enough for man.

That we don't need to go and see that, yeah, you are a dear brother or sister, but I'm concerned about condition of your heart. I don't think that come from right spirit, what Jesus teaches. In Bible, Jesus never pointed out that I'm concerned about your heart. Even Judas, he didn't point out that you are the one and I know your heart is not right.

but he blessed Judas even he knew. So I think we should have that kind of a mind. Then I wanted to talk a little bit, somebody has said that, get offended about when people say that Finnish sermons are different. So I'm the one, one of the ones,

who think that. And I think those people who get offended, I don't know how many sermons they have been listening, that they can have that opinion. I say that why I say that they are different is because they, the sermons there, most of the time they talk the Word of God, purely Word of God. I don't feel that

ministers there have been trying to look [for wolves] in the flock. Here many times I have heard how ministers are looking for believers saying that enemy is in this flock and pointing out, look at those wolves. And I'm one of them. And then I think that, well, that's not how it should be.

Also, I feel peace, because in Finnish sermons, they talk a lot about having peace in your mind, choice of being believer, a lot of Christ, how Christ is with you the whole time. And even now, I feel that I have no fear being here, because I feel that Jesus is with me.

And also in Finnish sermons, they don't talk about man-made fruits of faith, what I heard today. I think those fruits were not from Bible. And I don't know if somebody wrote them, did that person write them from love? Because bad fruits is hatred, jealousy, fornication. I can't remember the whole list in English.

And I think that those are just a list of things that you said, okay, these people did this. Now they can be marked as being bad believers because, you know, obviously they had bad fruits. Oh, I can see that person writing notes, bad fruit, that's a bad believer. But we, I think that's, that is the problem.

would I see that there is a position of God with some men. They think they have right to evaluate if somebody's faith is good enough. Like, we have left Rockford. I haven't gone to Rockford Church for a long time because I get so anxious. I get anxious even thinking about opening the doors of Rockford Church because I have been bullied there.

So I just can't. And then people tell I'm bitter. I'm not bitter, but I feel so bad that I can't go, because I would just fall apart. I had shown in Rockford Church how bad of a believer I am. I'm not worthy. And then I still should go there.

And this is how I see what's going on here in America. And I hope that all you LLC members, ministers who are here, you listen to this.

If the sin we have is that we haven't trusted the board because they're gods, I don't know what the faith you have is, or I have, or what I have gone wrong. But how can the board be assured that if they do something wrong, somebody will say that? Or the ministers, if they speak against the Bible, the congregation members will correct them. If we need to be obedient and trust, even though we see something going wrong,

And here is a lot of, you know, there's some people here who have been concerned about things have been going on and they want to voice their, you know, stuff to say, okay, this where we saw you going wrong. But then what happens is at least I have been told that I must have some sin because I thought that some sermon was wrong or it was against the Bible or something.

Sure, I had a lot of sin all the time. Nobody is sinless. But trust is earned. And we can't demand trust over the truth. And we have to... And what is the truth is the Word of God.

And if there's something, I think if there's some believers going to talk and saying, okay, dear brother, look, here you went wrong. Would it be okay to listen to? I know that in this room there's many people who have been approached. Have they listened? I don't know.

And then there was talk about spiritual abuse. And it sounds like, you know, that's something you should not mention. I have said and I will say that I am spiritually abused. My faith is not good enough for this church here.

My reputation has been spread. And maybe now you think that's one of those who is speaking. We don't need to listen to that one because she's not worthy. My husband is abused. He was showing how he wasn't worthy doing his duties in the congregation. He can't even translate anymore. There's other people. They can't go to church because they feel so anxious.

I could make a big list. Also, who used to be Pastor John, he has been abused. And I feel nauseated when I think about that. And that is not what should happen. I don't think this is a matter of a doctrine, because we can talk doctrine. I don't care if somebody understands wrong, because we can talk about it. But this, if you say something and you are put to this class of bad believers, not worthy,

and you feel like nobody. I think that's wrong. Leo, can you pass it to Gary, your husband?

Speaking of doctrine and the importance of doctrine, I would suggest replacing the word doctrine with the teachings of Christ. Now, if we replace the word doctrine with the teachings of Christ, would we say that doctrine is not so important? Doctrine is found in the Bible.

And the Bible even speaks about the importance of doctrine. 2 John 1.9. Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son.

And then if we talk about unity, unity is also in the word, the correct unity that we're looking for. It's in the word. Not only in the spirit, not in spirit alone, because the Bible talks about trying the spirits. Now the way to identify the correct spirit is to find the spirit that's tied back to the word.

Yeah, Gary, can you pass it? There was a hand over here. I'm sorry, I don't know your name. I'm Katie. It's been a while since, I can't even remember why I initially raised my hand, but I do remember the point today when I started feeling really anxious, and it was when

one of the comments said that they're hearing today voices from a wrong spirit, so I don't know if I misunderstood that, or were you saying that there are people in this room that aren't believing? I think it was maybe one of the speakers from Toronto. I don't even remember the name, but anyway, because...

I have been one who's been wondering for a long time. I just do not understand. Everyone here in Minnesota knows that there's two groups. Whether or not you've put yourself into a group, you have been put into one. And I have had many conversations with people across the board, and I feel like when we talk about how we believe, we believe the same.

But it seems like of these two groups, one group is real quick to say that the other one is not believing correctly.

I think when we're talking about people's souls, that does induce anxiety. It is very, very scary to have someone tell you that you're not a believer or you're not good enough or whatever. And it's gotten to the point where, I've said this before to some people, that my own kids have been told that our family is not believing. And I just don't think that that is...

Those kind of comments come from the flesh. They don't come from the mind of Christ. There was a lot of comments today earlier on about trusting. And I guess I'm sincerely asking. I've had these conversations I've had with different speakers.

I don't know how to say it. I'm not trying to point fingers. I have forgiven them, but I have to say that there have been untruths. I would say very strong untruths. So then when I hear that I have to trust them with my faith, it makes me so anxious because I'm like, if the devil is working and there's this deceit happening...

Yet, the message is that we're supposed to trust them and not question it and have quote, childlike faith. It's confusing because when I think of childlike faith, I think

of what is our faith. Our faith is that Christ died on the cross for our sins. I believe that simply. I can't imagine physically seeing a person nailed onto the cross and blood coming out of him for all of our sins. I can't understand that with my mind, but I do have childlike faith that it has happened.

So I'm wondering if there's a little bit of a misunderstanding or a misuse of what childlike faith is. I know I've heard it quoted before in a Rockford discussion that when we're a child, we put away childish things and when we become man, we...

I don't know the rest of the scripture, but hopefully you guys do. I felt like it was saying that you should know what you believe, and that seems to be a difference. Today, too, I know I've heard a lot of elders say in the last heresy, the comment was to read the Bible. They were dusted off. Everyone was reading, talking about doctrine, and now the message today seems different.

John's name has come up and John Lehtola, I'm glad he's not here today because I feel that they have endured enough and I'm not trying to single him out or whatever. But one thing that I have felt really bad about is that I was at the Rockford discussion when

him, actually I think it was Gary that brought it up first. The two of them were sharing this thought, being as forgiveness was being discussed, that we don't go in and out of faith every time we sin. And I felt like that could have been a really good teaching moment, but it turned into this

tsunami wave of mockery of a false prophet trying to bring in a new understanding. And people were muttering terrible names when they heard his name being called by the moderator. And I was like, this is not, I have such a hard time with it because that same message that he

was said to be a false prophet for is now printed in the voice of Zion. And I'm like, if everyone could sit down and read that, I don't understand where... If it's a different message, maybe it's because it's something we never thought about it before, but let's listen to the message and not judge the messenger. Or I should say, I feel like the messenger has been judged, so then people don't listen to the message. Um...

Another thought I had is these comments lately about bad fruits, about switching congregations, and I agree. I think the congregation hopping is a little bit peculiar, but I have thought that for four years when it first started, but for some reason it seems like people are really paying attention to the

the ones who've gone to Minneapolis, but this started when a huge group left Minneapolis Church four years ago. And I'm not saying that I personally think it's a bad fruit. I'm just saying I've noticed that it has troubled me. I can't remember what else I was going to say, but anyone who's talked to me knows that I've been very troubled.

I feel like some speak to me with love. They're very kind. They're warm. Other people ask me, what big sin is on your conscience that you've come to talk to me? They make me feel like I am a nothing. And I thought, what would Jesus do? What would Jesus do if he was at a board meeting and people came there? Would he...

get angry and go around, put seeds of doubt about them that they've come? Or would he turn and go to them and say, dear brother, dear sister, why are you so troubled? Why have you come here?

So I don't know, I wish that we could talk, like Pat's comment early on, that what is actually dividing people? Is there a doctrinal issue, or is it a lot of unforgiven sin and offenses between believers? I hope that's the case, because that could be taken care of very simply with the gospel. And for all my shortcomings, which there's very much of them, can I please hear the gospel?

since we're gonna use it in the impression fund. Curie Tiffany. So I also take the microphone today with very much fear and trembling and a long time Minneapolis member who I would say in this way that not that I feel I need to defend myself but

Brother pointed out earlier that sometimes when we've moved to a different congregation, it's been for temporal reasons. We saw cheaper housing further out and bought a house in Monticello, and it just felt natural that

um that's where we were going to go because it's a long drive here but this congregation is very dear to my heart and i've said it too many times that i was granted grace repentance in 1997 and um i'll just say quickly that um i was i was in a church that taught me to pray to god and be saved there is no salvation there

I knew a Lestadian in my life, and I visited with her often. And she shared more and more. I asked a lot of questions, and only because God had me searching. And there was a day where I realized, and I even asked this friend of mine that, can I just believe both ways? I want to be saved. That's truly how I felt.

It was a matter of, they told me I could pray to God and be saved. And she had told me that there was this gospel message, this treasure hidden in a field that comes alone by faith. And she told me there's a gospel message that was preached. They preached to each other. And that's because I asked her, how does an unsaved person become saved according to your church? And she was very clear. And I didn't repent that day. It wasn't God's time.

But it was a short while later that I had asked her, what were those words again? I truly felt that I want to give this a try. And it sounds odd, give it a try, as living faith, something that you give a try, but that's what I felt. And she preached the gospel, and I felt I was saved, and she said, you probably want to come to church now. God gave her those weak words, and I truly felt that I'd want to come for a long time, but I didn't want to do the wrong thing anyway. So I don't want to dwell on that, but...

At the same time, it was several weeks into it, I came to church every time, and when I came to this congregation, I felt the peace and joy. I felt, I never felt it in my entire life, that I just felt so accepted and so much at peace and joy and contentment, love, whatever it was. And it was some weeks into it, and I've shared this many times, I apologize, but some weeks into it,

Enemy of Souls was working overtime. He knows that somebody is new in God's kingdom, and he wants to pull them back. And it was a bad day. I could never feel that peace and joy again tonight. There's no way. It was a Wednesday. There's no way I can go there tonight, feel that peace and joy. And long story short, I felt, well, I'm going to give it a try. You know, the workday ends, blah, blah, blah. And I came here, and I felt that.

peace and joy again. And it truly spoke to me. So I guess what I'm hearing myself is I know there's unity in God's kingdom. The Bible teaches that. There will be unity in God's kingdom until the end. We just don't know who those people will be. And it's my hope and my prayer. And I know it's the hope and prayer of any of us here today.

that they would be in God's kingdom at the end. But a couple of concerning comments that I've heard today, and I'm not trying to pick. I'd be happy to visit one-on-one regarding this. And it doesn't matter who said them, but I had heard something about that some of you, that's great that some of you need to put your sins away again and again with the gospel, and some of us, but isn't it okay that some of us don't need to? And that felt a little concerning to me. I'm not saying it's wrong. I don't know.

God knows. But I do know this, that when I fall into sin, the peace and joy is gone. A large part of it is gone. I'm still a believer. But my doubts are so strong. Am I even a believer anymore? And so I can go to a believer and say, am I even a believer anymore? Will you bless me? They'll preach the gospel to me.

And I still don't find the peace and joy. There's a matter. There's a sin that I need to speak of. So I wanted to cover that. And in Proverbs it says that, I don't know, I'll paraphrase, but the man that hides his sins, man in the Bible, man or woman that hides their sins will not prosper. And we know that prospering is having the gospel, the forgiveness of sins. I don't think it's talking about

being a millionaire. But anyway, that's my thought on that. My only other thought is the differences between different believers is, I think, very important. And I've been believing for 22 years. I've had situations that have been very difficult. Enemy of Souls wants to do that. He wants to break the love between us. There's no doubt about it. I've witnessed it. I've felt it. And to the point where

Forgiveness becomes, it's so simple. We know it is so simple. But we complicate it. There's no doubt about it. And there have been times where, why are you bringing up the same matter again? Well, you know, I can tell. I can tell you're frustrated with me. Let's visit. I like to clear the air. I don't like frustrations. It bothers me. I know it's not healthy. And so I just... Even here in Minneapolis, I...

Like many of us, I'm sure, came here hoping for a solution. Let's have this solved. It's over and done. Peace and unity restored. I felt that same way today. But I feel on, I don't like to say maybe both sides. I tremble to try to say that. But I would say that it is good that sometimes if you feel that you're somehow on non-speaking terms with somebody, I don't like to say that because I don't see that either. I see these people visiting with each other, you know,

But is there a matter that needs to be spoken of and maybe ask for the gospel from that person as a starting point? But so I don't know. Unforgiven sin is what steals our peace and joy. And so I can't help but ask myself when, and I have heard the similar things too, summer services. The law was preached in America. The truth was preached in Finland. I didn't feel that. I felt peace and joy and contentment in the services this summer in Monticello at Silver Springs.

And so if you are one that felt that something was missing there, I'm not sure what to say other than search your heart, pray, go to as many believers as you can, ask for the gospel. And I'm just not sure. It concerns me that somebody would feel that way because I didn't feel that. And I know another brother mentioned that today. But

So I'm just going to stop. Those are some of the thoughts I've had today. God, in my short time of believing, I've seen people lose their faith. It is difficult for all of us. It's hard for me. And it truly is what the Bible teaches. We all feel that pain.

And I have felt that. And so I'm not saying anybody here today has lost their faith. I truly don't know. God knows our hearts. But I just, I feel in myself that if I'm confused somehow, I need to search my heart. And there is that psalm, search me, O God, and see if there be any wicked way in me. There's the Lord's Prayer that teaches us he knows our needs even before we ask. He knows we need to be in the center of God's kingdom. He knows that.

And so the Lord's Prayer is a good prayer also, to search our own heart and to pray to God. As an unbeliever, I prayed to God. I don't know why I prayed the Lord's Prayer. I don't know why I found the Lord's Prayer in the Bible. I remembered it as a young child, hearing that prayer, and I thought, that looks familiar. I heard it in an unbelieving church as a young child, and I thought, well, maybe I should pray that prayer. It tells us right there, word for word.

And I've been to many unbelieving churches that today, to this day, family members of mine, and worldly churches that debate with me that we don't need to pray the Lord's Prayer. I'm like, can't you see this? They can't see it. They cannot see it. They do not have the Holy Spirit. They haven't been given the gift of faith. And it is true that we are saved alone by faith, but faith cometh by hearing, and hearing the gospel of forgiveness of sins as preached in God's kingdom.

That Ethiopian eunuch, when he found grace of repentance, Philip was quoted as saying, and he preached unto him Jesus. That's how he became saved. We preach Jesus to one another today. That's what I believe.

And I don't, I don't, I didn't even know if I should take the microphone. I'm not a, I'm not an LLC board member. I'm not a Minneapolis congregation member anymore. And if I've caused any offense with my words and for my fear and trembling to even speak here today, I want to ask if I can hear the gospel and have all my sins forgiven. All sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious Lord. Okay, Russ Roiko, up front.

I guess my thoughts, I'll start with what Gary just quoted from that 139th Psalm, that search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. It captures so well the

heart and mind of a child of God to always want to be in the care of the congregation. And I think that's what is so important for each and every one of us. And the things that I've thought about that God has showed us his power and his spirit this year, several have commented on already, going from the

Board members workshop in April to our summer services, the sermons there, the speakers and board members discussion, and the annual meeting. And then we had the Seneca and I were out west at the Ministers and Wives Camp, the wonderful unity of the oneness of the spirit there.

We had a southern Minnesota boards discussion here in Minneapolis at the start of October. And then the minister's teleconference. Then we had the Friday meeting of which the Minneapolis board and the LLC brothers, as many have commented on, the MBMAC meeting on Saturday where

brother presented on from Ephesians endeavoring to keep the unity in the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. All of these have to my mind really been a call by the spirit of God to be in that unity of the spirit in the congregation. We have felt that throughout these many meetings.

And I guess that is why this psalm, Search me, O God, and try my heart, sort of keeps coming back to my mind because it should raise the question for each one of us that am I in that unity of the Spirit? Am I part of that congregation led by the Holy Spirit? It's the only way.

Brother Jim commented on that we can achieve that unity is by the work of the Spirit. The Spirit draws the believers into that oneness of understanding, faith, and love. And so it just seems to me that that creates the focus to every one of us to contemplate our own heart.

and ask, where am I? Because if we are not in that unity, if we cannot answer that question, if we cannot be as open books before God and man on how and where our hearts are, it puts us heading down a path that is very dangerous.

where we are then battling against the Spirit of God and against the work of the Spirit in the congregation of God. So I would just like to reinforce that encouragement, which we have already heard, that search me, O God, and try my heart. Know my heart. God, of course, knows our heart, but it only is revealed in the congregation, in the mother, where we can be cared for.

by the gospel. And when we put sin away, love is restored automatically. There's no such thing, no such sin as a lack of love. Lack of love, of course, can be a thing, but it is not a sin. Sin, it is that breaks, destroys love. I also feel my own failures

difficulties in even finding the words that I hope that would help. And the struggles, of course, can be very trying. I ask, can I believe my many sins? Thanks for us. Gary Simonson. Carey, sorry.

Yeah, it's a long time since the hand went up, but speak before you feel like a very little boy and want to know. I small believe my sins forgiven. You have all sins forgiven. Just say the first word.

So Carey Simonson from Saskatoon and I come with many greetings and prayers from there. And I think of

It's already 13 years ago when I was speaking in this congregation, and I remember the words from one text that I read that I will read again. Therefore, my brethren, dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. Dear believers here in Minneapolis, you are carried in prayer, love,

And we can feel and we have felt as we have heard the difficulties that you have faced and we have felt again today that how even the songwriter writes that the harps have offed upon the way on willows hung in grief-filled days. Our tears have here been flowing.

It's a difficult time, but a time that we are emboldened to yet speak how we believe and encourage each other. So many precious and clear speeches today. People are opening their hearts, it feels, especially this afternoon. But yet, and I say this

which I feel in some ways for my flesh I shouldn't say because of what has been said. But yet I have to say through the Spirit that the Spirit has revealed that there are differences here in this congregation.

And these are not personalities, it feels to me. I do not know your personalities, but yet, as I hear the speeches, I can feel that there are differences. And these need to be discussed, and I'm very happy to hear that people are bringing these out. Because God can bless that when those are brought out into light and discussed. And Jesus clearly speaks about the...

the for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh and and further in connection with this he says either make the tree good and his fruits good or else make the tree corrupt and his fruit corrupt for the true tree is known by his fruit and then for out of the abundance of the heart the man the mouth speaketh

a good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things these are not easy to say but certainly evident through the spirit i would also like to say something i heard

And I don't speak as one to judge. I speak to reflect what I heard. And I also stand to be corrected. A dear brother in our area used to say many years ago, who has now gone to his rest, Melvin Pearness, that one speaks and the others judge. Here we want to be in the care of the mother.

I heard several speeches feeling that, you know, maybe these are not real differences, that they are personalities. And this thought came to me. It came from the speakers and wives' camp this fall. It came very clear to me that the warning that Jesus gives to remember Lot's wife

that we would not, maybe if we're not even one with a strong voice opposing, but if in our quiet heart we are there joining or with a divided heart to follow or to pick good in both sides, that is a very dangerous place.

And we could, as if with Lot's wife, leave the city, but with a divided heart, look back. So I would speak to you, especially, who finds that it's hard to take a place to stand, remember Lot's wife. It comes back to some

advice I got from my own father years ago when he spoke about difficulties in the congregations. And I asked him, I said, what if I don't know? What if I don't know where to take a stand? He said, listen.

Listen to what the Spirit speaks in the churches. And then finally, from Bible class in Saskatoon, our small congregation, on Friday evening, we were going through the footsteps of the sheep and the building of the wall, and there it referred to how those that opposed the work felt that even a fox would go up and break down that wall, and I

I wanted to encourage you, dear workers here in Minneapolis, to continue the work that you're doing. Continue to sow the seeds to the youth. Continue to preach and to speak openly of the matters in your congregation. And as you build the walls, there will be those that will say that even a fox can break it down, the sly fox.

And you do the work with your own gifts that God has given. And certainly we all feel that as we build those walls, and we do, some of us build a little bit too much to the right or to the left or too high or too low. But God, when he directs it and when it's built on the old foundation, that wall is built correctly. So continue to do the work, be emboldened.

Thanks, Gary. Mike Jurmu? We had said that we would try to wrap things up at 3, and of course we kind of fibbed about that. We weren't wrapping it up.

The question I have is, do we all have the strength to go for a bit yet? There are a few more names on the list. We did ask Jim Frantti to do a closing devotion as well. You LLC brothers, I'm not sure of all of your travel plans, if you can stay for just a few minutes yet or if we should wrap it up.

and I don't know how I can get an answer sitting back here, but anyway, that's my question. The other thing that comes to mind, and I know that I have been pondering this question as we asked, even when we asked the LLC brothers to come,

that if we don't speak what's on our hearts and minds, then there won't be care. We won't be able to be cared for. And you know, you young brothers that came to visit us at our last board meeting and you older ones, there's only one of you that has spoken today.

of our board members that we have, that we haven't had agreement with, you haven't spoken today. And so it seems to me that if we don't speak, we're wasting an opportunity that God has given us.

And it is getting late, and so maybe the time for that has passed. But if we could, for a few more minutes, maybe go till 4.30, and maybe some more of you could speak, I think that would be good. I've got three on the list right, four on the list right now. Joan Parks.

Okay, so I'm just wondering, could possibly our issue be that we have strayed from the Word of God and doctrine? We've heard much about doctrine today, but yet when we go to the Word of God,

which is the Holy Bible. God speaks how doctrine is what will bring unity within his kingdom, which is the instructions of his word. Doctrine is teaching of God's word. So I just, when I have questions, I go to the Bible for my answers. So I have a few questions.

things to read here. One is from Matthew. It's building on a sound foundation. And it's in an easier translation. But it's anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on a solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won't collapse because it is built on bedrock.

But anyone who hears my teachings and does not obey it is foolish like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.

Then in 2 Timothy 3:16, all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. 1 Timothy 6, 3-5, If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing.

He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth. Imagine that godliness is a means of gain.

and then matthew 7 came matthew 7 here's another that came to mind just listening to speeches judge not that ye not be judged for with what judgment you judge ye shall be judged and with what measure you met it shall be measured to you again and why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye, and behold, a beam is in thy own eye. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam of thy own eye, and then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. And then this is from Elmer.

He had a presentation in Phoenix, I think it was in 89 maybe. And it was based on, and that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Jesus Christ. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

And then James 5, 16. And then Psalms 103.

He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love for those who fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. As the Father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. For he knows our frame, he remembers that we are dust.

And then I just had one more. Matthew 5 is, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

And these were the instructions of my grandfather, Henry Aoyoke. He told his children, which was my mother, Thelma Aoyoke, she used to tell us that grandpa always said, there will be times in your life and there will be a time that you will face where you need to know God's word for yourself, that faith is personal. No man can save you.

So I have remembered that always, and I turn to the Word of God for my answers in faith and life.

And I know I had several speaking turns, so this is my psalm. This is how I believe. I believe upon God's word, and I put my faith and trust in God, not in man. And I think maybe this is where our problem is here, that people are putting their faith and trust in man. One dear friend from Finland said,

has said how he noticed in America, people say their faith and trust is in the LLC. He said in Finland, you don't hear that. You hear your faith and trust is in Jesus Christ. We follow Christ. We keep our gaze on Christ. And for my weaknesses and doubts, can I still hear the gospel? We also ask you in Jesus' name, first of all.

I have heard many times today that we should have the faith of a child, childlike faith. And I think this is good advice. This is what we should strive to have

I've been one who has thought we should discuss these matters as matters of doctrine. I've said that several times in the last several years. But my thought was that if we discuss the doctrine, we would find that

we all believe much the same, and then we would be left with still the question, which is what is going on here, which is, you know, it has to be the work of the devil and unforgiven sin in some form. Some may want to say it's doctrinal, but can you get to that point without unforgiven sin initially?

Can you have doctrinal differences without first accumulating that sin and losing or weakening your faith? So that was why I thought we could discuss doctrine so that we would only then conclude that it's sin that's causing this broken love. But back to the...

childlike faith. Part of that, I remember as a child, at one point it occurred to me that there was all these other kids around that didn't go to church. And

You know, I was told that, oh, well, these, they're kids, they're believers, that all children are believers, they're all saved. And that was it. I was, okay, they're kids, they're saved. And we know that there is an innocence in a child that would make them heaven acceptable. But to me as a child, then I just accepted that they were saved. And part of this childlike faith is trust and

And we've heard that there are those here who have attended board meetings and, you know, reached out to board members and maybe, you know, for this, that, or the other thing, maybe they need to have that trust that,

that the board members are brothers and sisters in faith. And while they will make mistakes because they're men, that their intentions are good, and if there is a mistake, we would want to carry them. But just have trust. We don't need to witness every single step of the process. We don't need to verify what we heard is or is not correct. Let's just trust one another.

And we've heard that the board, I would say some are questioning these believers that would switch from one congregation to another. And they're not moving from one congregation to another. They're moving within the same congregation of God. And

we as believers should also extend that same childlike trust to them, that they're here because they believe as we believe. And for each of us, this trust will be betrayed from time to time because we are all human. But if you don't extend it,

you know, you've already had fault before the trust could even be betrayed. We have to have that trust in one another, in that spirit, in that Holy Spirit, even if it means that there may, you know, some may take advantage of that and some may repeatedly abuse it, but we would always want to forgive them and continue to extend that trust. Thanks, Pat. Emily Parks.

I just wanted to say a couple things. I know we have some people here that don't routinely come here to Minneapolis or are members here, so therefore probably wouldn't have been at other meetings that we've had. I'm sure you've heard about them, but I guess just two things or observations that I've kind of thought of recently of things that have been going on here, things that are kind of frustrating to me.

even though I haven't been necessarily deeply involved in these things, but enough to the point where I obviously hear plenty about them. And even today I've heard comments about

or there was mention that or alluding to that people are going against God's kingdom and I think that that creates like almost a feeling of a lack of compliance in my mind when I hear that sort of a thing that that no we're just told to listen we're told to trust which yes we do we trust the good Lord and

But I think that that is creating, that causes a lack of freedom to ask questions that people have and to discuss the actual issues and not people. So many times in these discussions, we've come back to the people, the people, the people, the people. Well, rather than talking about that, like someone mentioned previously, why don't we talk about the actual issue? It's a lot less harmful, a lot less hurtful for people.

And if there are things that need to be taken care of with individual people, then yes, do that outside of that. But I've seen it from my own point here that it just seems like things go around and around when we start talking about people. It creates a defense.

What I wanted to say with that is when we have the lack of freedom to ask questions, it almost, in my mind, creates a lack of trust. I know that was mentioned earlier. And so in that type of situation where I know I've had questions myself, you know, instead of a feeling of love and wanting to understand, sometimes we're given examples of situations like Korah

where there was punishment when people went against God, when they truly went against God. And I think that that's kind of leading into my second point that I wanted to ask is, and this goes for myself, everyone in here, where is our individual love for others?

I know there's been a couple comments, Pat just addressed it as well, about comments regarding people that have been moving congregations, and yes, there has been some people that have moved here. But that may be indicative of things that are going on area wide, however, I think that

the better solution to this is to warmly welcome people here, because I know, from my own part, a lot of people that I've talked to that have come here,

maybe didn't feel as free or had been maybe treated less than ideally, you know, previously wherever they were coming from. And I just think that in that type of situation, it's our job to welcome and to love everyone. And yes, of course, if there are problems that are going on with that and we want to take care of those things, go back to the root of the problem

But rather than looking at people sideways or, you know, like, you know, kind of the question of, oh, well, you know, you come here or something of that nature, to be welcoming and to be loving, it's our job. And if we don't have that love for other people in our heart, what does that say about us? Thanks, Emily. Zach Kujala.

So I don't have my thoughts very organized but I've heard a few comments about how there's some people who have come to meetings but they haven't spoken here or something and we want to hear them speak. I don't really like the idea of trying to compel people to speak. It almost seems like we have some list of names that these are the people we want to hear from. We're investigating them or something but this isn't a trial or investigation or at least it wasn't advertised as such. I think when we say be free to speak it should be be free to speak if you want to but if you don't want to that's okay too.

Thanks, Zach. What's the end of the list that I had when I came up here? Was there anyone else? Right here, Eric Jurmu.

I raised my hand a long time ago, and it's a good thing that Eugene missed me. That's just fine. It gave opportunity for many in the congregation to speak. Dear brothers and sisters here in Minneapolis, this congregation, as many have said, has been dear to them. It's also dear to me. I grew up here, and I remember Elmer.

as that dear servant of the Word. And I remember Elmer as others remember him also, admonishing the sinners unto repentance and asking if there are sinners here and so on. I also was appreciative of that gift that Elmer had. I also remember hearing myself as a young boy

the accusations that Elmer occurred during the time of the heresy. He was one of them that was labeled law-minded.

I'm not going to say that our dear brother didn't have his own weaknesses. He did just as we all do. But yet he served with the gift that God gave him. Our dear brother was able to gain the rest of the righteous. As I've listened, there were many thoughts that I thought I would speak, but I'll let those go for now because maybe there will be another time.

But I remember you congregation members here in Minneapolis with prayer and love. I also remember you, your brothers who are serving on the board here that the congregation has asked to serve. And would God continue first to keep you as one of his own? And secondly, that you would freely serve with the gifts that God has entrusted into your care.

It's for his purposes. It's his kingdom. It's his work. And he places the gifts that are necessary during the time that they are necessary.

One thought I did have that I thought to mention was in relation to doctrine and how important doctrine is. And of course, as one brother said, and has said that Christian doctrine is so important that it surrounds God's kingdom in a way that keeps all the evil and wrong doctrines at bay so that the child of God can believe simply. And this is how I understand Christian doctrine. It's important.

Jesus also thought this Christian doctrine is so important that as he taught on the Sermon on the Mount, beginning in the fifth chapter of Matthew, sixth and seventh chapter, towards the end of that sermon, not only did he teach clear doctrine, but he also felt it important that he would warn of wrong doctrine.

And so we can't either only teach right doctrine, but we also need to warn against wrong doctrine. Because the wrong doctrine, when it's preached and when it's taught, it doesn't have a saving doctrine. It's not saving, but rather leads to damnation. And this is also what he cautioned in regards to the

false prophets. He said that those false prophets will come. When Paul, in his farewell sermon to the leaders in the church of Ephesus, he also warned that he had been there for some years teaching daily, but soon after his departure, ravenous wolves, grievous wolves would come in and not spare the flock.

So there is that kind of danger and that kind of warning that we need to watch and be watchful and also concerned that we would teach clear doctrine and that we wouldn't stray from that teaching either. The evidence of these false prophets are this.

that they do come in sheep's clothing. There was this kind of a reference today that there are those leaders even in North American Zion who speak of these wolves in sheep's clothing.

But brothers and sisters, it is also according to scripture that wolves come in sheep's clothing. It's the only way and one of the only ways that the enemy of souls can wrap his tools of deceit and lie so that the child of God would be deceived.

I've thought of Eve when she began that visit with the serpent. Somehow she wasn't afraid of the serpent, but the serpent beguiled her.

This is how the enemy works. He wraps himself in those kinds of tools that he uses that are pleasing, that can be numbing. And there would be many things that we could speak of concerns of these false prophets. But the fruits, Jesus says, by their fruits are they known.

And the one fruit is that these false prophets always break the love of God's kingdom, of God's children. That's not done by the Holy Spirit, but rather the false spirit, a wrong spirit. The Holy Spirit calls and gathers and enlightens.

As you heard and as we've heard today, I believe these matters are quite serious. I don't think that they're just personality clashes or things that we could just explain away by personality or either of continuing discussion. The only way unity will be returned to this congregation in Minneapolis

and also to God's kingdom, is that God would give a heart that realizes their condition and come on to repentance. When I was a young boy, my father

was the dearest man that I knew until I had sin on my conscience. Then my father wasn't near that same loving caregiver that he was when I was walking void of offense before man and God. So I think those here who have spoken

of the fear that they feel in coming to these kinds of meetings are exactly that same kind of person that I've been when there's sin that burdens the voice, the Spirit of God, the Word of God heals or offends. And if it doesn't heal and it's offending,

That's what we've heard so many times today. Search me, O God. Know my heart. I remember you, dear friends, brothers and sisters here. May God bless you. May God bless the work of the congregation, and may God bless you, dear servant boys, that the congregation has asked prayerfully to serve them.

It's not of your own goodness or your own strength. It is not of your own reason or understanding, but out of a heart that would serve. May God bless your service.

May God keep each of us safely in this fold until the end. But if there's a weak one, it is I, doubting and fearful. Can I still hear the gospel? Can I believe my many sins? Well, we're going to try to wrap up, but I think we have maybe a couple last minutes.

John, did you want to speak quick? And Jim Jurmu also. Quick, I'll try. I'm not noted for being quick. Jon Bloomquist, the Menahga LLC. You know, I've sat here

I've listened. I've wanted to hear and to try to understand, as I know these other brothers have as well, what it is that divides you, what it is that troubles you, and I think especially you, who I think know that you're of a different mind.

from many of us. During these last three, four years of struggle, I have had to take inventory of what I believe, reexamine it in the light of God's Word, the confessional writings,

to writings of former and current believers, and to visit with them many dear brothers and sisters of that. And I have concluded that I know what I believe and what I want to believe.

I have to say that when we start talking about these issues, it's not clear to me just what are the real issues. And it's not clear to me what some of you really believe.

I don't think we've departed from God's word and God's kingdom, and I believe this is God's kingdom. About a year ago, I think it was a year ago, I had a Skype call with two brothers who were leaving on a mission trip. This is part of my work. One of them was a dear, dear brother from Finland who I've got to know pretty well.

And I have, from some of you here even, received on occasion text messages or emails or comments in which it's been suggested that, well, once these articles in this book, for example, are translated from Finnish, then you'll see.

And as I told this dear brother, I said, you know, I lived in Finland for one year and then later for a couple years again. I've had many opportunities to travel there. I've had visits with many brothers and sisters and brothers who have served at the SRK and on the SRK board. I've been reading the SRK publications for 30 years.

And I said, I've always thought we believed in the same way. And I don't expect anything new in this new doctrinal book. And he told me, he said, you know, you can rest assured, you believe the same way that we do. And he said, there is nothing new.

in this new book. In fact, he was a part of the reading group. He said when they met with that group of authors, they said, the authors said, we don't want to introduce anything new. So that was a comfort to me.

You know, we hear these comments as we've heard today that there are those who feel that sermons here in North America by American brothers are law-minded and different from those of Finnish brothers.

Many Finnish brothers who have been here have not found that to be the case. Many of them have heard American brothers serve in Finland, have not found that to be the case. Last night I was in Elk River visiting with a brother who's Finnish, lives in America now. He can't understand it, he hears no difference.

And I would say to those of you who feel and see that difference, why? Why is it? You know, the children of Israel, God fed them with manna in the wilderness for 40 years. And there was a time when they said, it tastes like honey.

Then there came a time when they said, we're tired of this manna and it tastes like oil. Had the manna changed or had something within them changed? It has been said, and of course it's accurate, individuals can err, boards can err, speakers can err, LLC board can err.

There's no question. Nobody has ever debated that. But I think those who raise and seem to suggest that that's the case, the message I get from that is they're suggesting that is the case now.

And if that's what you believe, you need to speak openly and honestly about the issues in which they have erred. And I think you also have to ask the question, yes, individuals can err. Have I erred? Is it possible that I have erred? That's what many have referred to the words of the psalmist, search me, O God,

Know my heart. Try me and see if there's any wicked way in me.

It's, oh, I don't know, maybe a year and a half ago or so in our congregation, I drew the short straw, was asked to give a presentation on current issues. And I tried to the best of my ability and tried to put the most positive construction on the situation.

But I made the comment, which is true, that in our congregation we have been blessed with unity and one-mindedness for the most part. One brother later told me that when I said that, I took the freedom away to be of a different mind.

I don't agree that that's the case. I have been in many situations in my lifetime when I have been of a different mind of others. And I have simply felt that my conscience requires me to speak as I believe.

I have to say that, of course, there can be situations, I don't deny that, where people can be intimidating. But, for example, in this meeting today, and in the discussions that I've been a part of, I have felt that there has been a sincere desire. There has been love and sincere concern.

and a wish that everyone could speak freely as they believe, but the fact that others may be of a different mind and disagree, and maybe even speak some words of admonishment

doesn't mean that there's not freedom. It's not spiritual abuse, and it's not spiritual violence, but it's according to the Word of God. The psalmist wrote, let the righteous smite me. I have to read it because my memory fails here. I just had it. Let the righteous smite me.

It shall be a kindness. And let him reprove me. It shall be an excellent oil that shall not break my head. When the Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians, it hurt him, as he acknowledges in his second letter, to make them sorry.

None of us take any pleasure in seeing another human being, a brother or sister, to have to suffer even in their flesh. But better that, and that God's admonition

would work godly sorrow, as Paul says, than that they'd be lost. And I think that it's in that spirit and with that heart and mind that we have both wanted to listen and also to speak. And I don't believe that

You know, the solution is something that can be sort of solved with a formula, some engineering formula or something, or negotiation. God's Spirit is what calls and gathers and enlightens.

It was, I guess, in 2013, our first joint LLC SRK kind of work meeting, which now SFC has become a part of, and we do this every couple of years. And what a blessing they have been.

During that meeting, one of the SRK brothers, Tuomas, marveled after we had been there for a couple of days. And he said, you know, there are multi-national corporations that spend millions of dollars every year trying to achieve the unity

of understanding and vision, and of course, spirit, in our case, that we have here. And they can't do it. It's the work of the Holy Spirit. And we know that the Holy Spirit does not war with itself.

I think we have been very cautious and with good reason about suggesting false spirits. But the Apostle Paul, when he speaks of the fruits of the flesh and the spirit, he notes among the fruits of the flesh envying, strife, sedition, heresy, and the like.

And I feel comfortable in saying this, that those things that disagree with the Spirit of God and the teaching of God's Spirit in His congregation, they rise from the flesh. When I read the Bible, and I turn to it like I think all of you do, as

my guide and my teacher. But I also realize that there are many things that I don't understand in the Holy Scriptures. And so I have found it good to be able to visit with other brothers and sisters, dear and trusted brothers and teachers, and in God's congregation.

so that my understanding might be in harmony with the understanding of God's children. And I mentioned this yesterday, and I quoted from Juhani Raattamaa in our meeting yesterday, and I'll do just a very short...

from that today. But Juhani Raattamaa, when he writes about the keys, he speaks about this. Now, if I can find it.

He speaks of those who claim they have departed from following men and have trusted in the word. And then he says, I say that if you correctly understand God's word, then the word binds you to the congregation. Neither is the pure word of God outside the congregation.

I have to say that I believe in that way as well. And it disturbs me or causes me concern when anyone seems to suggest or in some way want to separate God's Word from God's congregation.

So those are my few scattered thoughts. I have much thought about you dear brothers and sisters here.

My whole congregation, on and off, I guess maybe 11, 12, 13 years. In fact, I have three going away presents from this congregation. And they got bigger and better every time. But after the last one, I didn't dare come back. Yeah, there was a message in that. But it's a dear congregation to me.

You're in our thoughts and in our prayers. And may God help and preserve each and every one of you also in his kingdom and care. And I want to ask also for your prayers and if I can also believe my own sins and faults forgiven. We also ask you in Jesus' name, amen.

All right, Jim Jurmu, you're the last one here. This congregation is where Barb and I raised our family.

In this church we spent many years, important years of our life in the care of the congregation and we left here in the love of the congregation. And yet when we left here seven years ago already there was some tension that was here

And we realized that especially after we had joined the congregation there in Monticello. And I don't say that for any reason other than this, that I thought myself that maybe

it would be different now that we've left and we didn't leave for that reason other than the new congregation had formed and we had sold our house and we were dreaming of building for six years a home out near Monticello and God finally had made a time for that and for that reason we left. When we've visited over the years

And when we were members here and when we've been members there in Monticello, we've remembered many of you personally. And I've noticed when we met Friday night with your board that most of your board today was not on the board when I was here.

And the troubles that you are experiencing here are troubles that also trouble the believers. It's not unique to your congregation, but here, when the difficulties have become so clear and the division has been so clear for such a period of time,

The cries of the believers went out to others to come to help. Think of the widow woman who was told to invite those or go and collect the vessels. She instructed her sons to go collect the vessels, the empty vessels from the neighbors. And they came into the house and the oil was poured from one vessel to the other and they were all filled.

A couple of thoughts before we leave that I wanted to express is you've been in the prayers and we've been in the prayers of the believers throughout Zion. I've also thought often in my own life about how Adam and Eve, when they had fallen into sin, they saw that they were naked, they hid themselves. God revealed that to them.

through sin and they hid themselves, did he leave them there? But when they heard God come walking in the garden, they hid themselves, but God called out to them. Maybe there's one here today that hears the call of God. Answer that call. Do not hide yourself.

Each one of us has needed the care of the congregation, and God has placed us into the care of his congregation. And when the congregation is divided, and you've invited others to come to visit, to hear, and to help, that has not been for any other reason that love would be restored. That has been our prayer. And I believe that through the power of the gospel, the love can be restored.

Sin can be put away as sin. Our wrong understandings, our wrong teachings, our wrong watchings can be washed away in the sea of grace. The words also of Jesus, that he that hath an ear to hear, let him hear. Let him hear what the Spirit saith. We've heard much the last few days of the Spirit of God and the last year's

How the Spirit was given, the Holy Spirit was promised by Christ before he left. And through the power of the Holy Spirit, the gospel of the forgiveness of sins is preached still today and continues the work of Christ. And that Spirit of God calls, gathers, and enlightens. It comforts us, it instructs us, it reminds us

come this way. We want to hear that call. We will continue to pray on your behalf and we ask that you would continue to pray on our behalf that not one would be lost. I feel

in myself much sin and doubt and failings and ask, can I yet believe my sins forgiven? Thanks, Jim. Phil, did you? Phil Johnson? Phil Johnson?

This is Sarah Parks. I would like to read something from the new SRK book. From, it's P-A-L-O-L-A, new book. Edki Bitki, or P-I-R-I, recalled one of the doctrinal errors at a meeting. Personal faith was transferred to the shoulders of the congregation.

It cannot be so because faith is personal matter. It was transferred in such a way that the congregation would tell you what your condition is.

Go before the congregation as if in an x-ray machine. Then it will be told how you are believing. It is a serious doctrinal error. Footnote 844.

the limiting of forgiveness which appeared earlier began to increase in 1978 and 1979 when someone told of their matters and begged for forgiveness it may have been said to him it does not answer to the spirit

It has not opened to you. The person was told to sit down and listen.

then maybe it will open up to you it was justified in this way the kingdom of god will forgive you when your heart is in the right place when the holy spirit is silent the person asking for the gospel does not have a heart that is in the correct place

it would be emphasized. You cannot make repentance through knowledge. A skull repentance is not a correct one. To a person who may ask to have things explained with the Bible...

it was responded to listen to what the congregation says. Many have gone to hell with the Bible in their hands. In this way, the significance of the congregational instruction was put even before the word of God.

At its extreme, there may be such poking or jabbing of others at the meetings that the only conclusion would be that the caretaker was trying to hide something himself. Footnote 845. I just had one question. Do you feel that's happening today?

I lived through the 1980s and I was a child then and what happened

in the church with, let's say, Ken Hoodery was so alarming that the similarities, yes, I have to admit, are really, really similar. And it's just the way it is. I don't know. I was a kid then, and history repeats itself, and it's really, really sad.

When people have such power and control over somebody else that they decide if somebody's fruits are right. Phil Johnson. I guess I don't like taking the mic, but

Friday night, our meeting with the LLC, my spirit said amen. It was a meeting that brought joy to my heart. Yesterday's board meeting brought joy to my heart. Today it doesn't.

I want to be in the care of the congregation, the believers, and hear this gospel.

I've also read that, the new SRK book that Sarah was referring to. And I agree, it's very interesting to read about how difficult those times were in Finland. And I suppose when we get a history of the LLC, we'll be able to read about it there too.

Sam Roiko from Elk River and many, before I continue, I want to say that many brothers and sisters in Elk River wanted their greetings brought here and many of them had Minneapolis as their home congregation. Remember you all in love and are praying on your behalf.

I reflected on, I suppose, those phrases, too, and many of the other examples of the actions that were taken by believers in Finland, especially in the 70s, that were written about in the new history book. And I have...

I have marveled at how God's kingdom

Oh, as we pray in the Lord's Prayer, thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory. It is God's kingdom and the work is done by faulty workers, by sinners, whom the congregation and congregations ask to serve.

One of the, well, another point that is made in the new history book is that many of these actions and positions that the SRK brothers took and caretaking meetings were done with this intent to create a pure congregation here on earth.

And it almost feels like that error is also coming through in many of the accusations, the criticisms, the disputing and the mistrust of those who have been asked to serve by the believers.

that the service must be perfect, it has to be unerring. If you can't speak in love, then you cannot go and rebuke. If you serve from the pulpit, the words have to be measured, everything is being recorded, sometimes broadcast in secret. And

That kind of demand and requirement doesn't feel right either. It seems to me that God's kingdom is a kingdom full of sinners. And as has been said, we all fall into sin and we all can err.

But the kingdom of God is unerring. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And it is also, I think, as John brought out, Jon Bloomquist from Raattamaa, that the doctrine of the kingdom of God is tied to the doctrine of Christ. And

As such, then our position, what's our relationship to the kingdom of God and the understanding of the believers? We've heard about the faith of a little child and the trust of a little child. I feel, well, me personally, why would I have a greater understanding than the other believers?

Why would my understanding, or if I would find a small group of friends that we would visit about, why would we be wiser than the rest of the believers?

I, you know, this was my home congregation for many years and I grew up and sat in these benches all through Sunday school and remember the teachings and the instructions of obedience, listening to the voice of the Spirit, remaining as a humble little child. And that's how I've always wanted to believe.

And I suppose that's also then the question or the concern when we visit, as we've heard today, about those that have switched congregations. In and of itself,

nothing wrong with it but i have when when we left from this congregation to join the elk river congregation it was it was in the love and care of the believers when we left elk river and moved out to buffalo new york and went to the toronto congregation we left in the love and care of the believers there in elk river

When we moved back from Buffalo, New York, the Toronto believers blessed us from their love and care, and we found again a home congregation in Elk River.

And then the question is, have those that have recently decided to switch to another congregation, have you left in the love and care of the believers? Or why then did you feel the need to switch? And that's where I think it's important that we, well, as the Bible says, that we would be open epistles to be read of all men. That we are open and honest with where we are.

It is with good reason that the Bible says to humble yourselves before the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time. God resists the proud but gives his grace to the humble. And I wonder if this also then, humbly accepting the will of the congregation and the decisions of the congregation, becomes one of those things

Well, doctrinal errors. When the congregation has asked John Lehtola not to rest, have I been able to accept, even if I don't fully understand, the wish of the congregation? When the congregation has asked this brother or that brother to serve on the board, have I been able to accept that even though I would have wanted somebody else?

And even to the point of temporal matters, when in the Elk River congregation, we were visiting about the design behind the pulpit, and it seemed good to the brothers and sisters to have the cross off to the side than in the center. That wasn't something that I thought was a good idea at first, but the other brothers and sisters accepted that.

I even brought my opinion out. But in the end, it was good, as the brothers in the meeting in Acts said, it felt good to the Holy Ghost and to us. That even if we don't understand, we can have those visits, but then we humbly accept the will of the congregation, pray on its behalf.

so that the work could go forth, even despite my opinion, which I would have felt would have been a better opinion. My understanding, which may not be, well, is my own understanding, but that it is subject, as Paul writes, that we even take every thought, bring into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ.

And Christ is in his congregation. It's a living congregation, not a dead congregation. It's not a dead Christ. And it is a living congregation here on this earth.

where the voice of the Spirit speaks, and it speaks forgiveness and mercy and grace to the sinner. I have not experienced in my lifetime that kind of a judgmental tone that would evaluate and not preach the gospel. Today I have heard the gospel preached abundantly to anyone who would have asked and offered to those who have not asked.

And that is that gospel that I live by and that has preserved me in faith and as a child. And I need to ask, can I still believe my own sins and not forgive? Well, if there is any others, maybe we could leave those discussions for in the hallway afterwards. We can invite Jim up here to close.

Dear brothers and sisters, before you is a sinner and a weak believer. I ask if I may have my sins forgiven. I wish to believe and remain in the fellowship of

God's children, because I know there is found the only way to reach heaven. There's one verse from the Bible that I often turn to. Sometimes if I ask to serve unexpectedly, this is my fallback text, but I thought about it already

on Friday when the brothers asked if I would keep this closing devotion. I know that it's been a long day of discussion, and I admire your stamina, but we'll pause just briefly to hear from God's word, asking that Heavenly Father would yet give words to speak,

for the honor and glory of his name and for the needs of his children. So I read from Romans chapter 14, verse 17. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink,

but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Amen. I know it's a familiar text to you, brothers and sisters. It comes from a portion of scripture where Apostle Paul was writing to the believers

about love between them and their responsibility and the keeping and preserving of that love. And he extended it even to such kind of temporal matters, we could say, as the eating of meat.

And in fact, he addressed this same topic in his letter to the Corinthians, and to them he said that if it would put a stumbling block in front of my brother if I eat meat, then I will refrain from eating meat. He had that kind of concern about preserving the right kind of love between him and fellow believers.

that he would even avoid eating meat to preserve it. It was so important to him. And it's equally important to us today, dear brothers and sisters, to remain in the love of God's children. But then Paul in our text says that the kingdom is not meat and drink.

And I've often thought that in those words he was telling us that the kingdom of God is not some form of outward fellowship, fellowship of the flesh kind of thing. Certainly as people we have friends and fellowship with each other and we can enjoy many occasions of being together.

But the fellowship of God's kingdom, it is also enjoyable, but there's an important thing about the fellowship of God's kingdom, and that is that it's one thing to be together with the believers bodily, but it's another thing to be together with the believers in unity of spirit and faith.

And that's what, in fact, even our coming here today has been for, is this, that we've come with the hope and the prayer that God would keep me in the unity of the believers. I need escorts. I need fellow travelers. I can't make this way

And I want to be in unity of faith and unity of spirit with all of you brothers and sisters. I don't want any differences with not a single one of you. Doesn't feel good, does it? If we can't feel that kind of unity that only the spirit can create between us.

I was thinking about Paul who wrote these words. Earlier he had seen the flock of believers in a much different way. When he wasn't a believer, he looked at them much differently. In fact, he was one of the chief persecutors of the believers. But when he received the grace of repentance, he saw the flock so differently.

And he saw the importance of mutual love and unity so important. But then Paul's description of God's kingdom here is so interesting to me. Because he doesn't describe it as a group of people. Even though we know that God's kingdom is a collection of believers. It's a temple made of living stones.

As Luther said, if someone wants to find God's kingdom, he has to seek where God's children are found. But Paul chose to focus here on the spiritual aspects of God's kingdom. And he lists three. And I think it's so important for us, dear brothers and sisters, to think about each of these three.

First, he says it is righteousness. And we understand very well that the righteousness that he speaks of is the same righteousness that the prophet was writing about when he saw the day of Christ and he said, this is the name by which he shall be called, the Lord, our righteousness.

Our righteousness is in Christ. We can't add anything to it. Not by anything we do or know or avoid doing. We can't add in any way to the righteousness of Christ.

We depend on that solely. And one day, when we stand before the righteous judge, and in fact today, remember, it's Judgment Sunday, remembering that day when we all stand before the righteous judge, and then we are judged, not according to anybody else's failures or merits or anything, but we are judged for ourselves.

And I don't know about you brothers and sisters, but I've often thought about that day of judgment. And when I think about it from the human side, it's kind of frightening to me that I stand before a judge who knows everything I have said and done and thought in this life. Seems like the doorway to heaven would be closed to me. But then when I remember the promise of scripture, that if I'm believing,

God looks at me and he sees his son. I have no doubts of the merits of Christ. Do you have any doubts of the merits of Christ? If God can see that when he looks at me, then I can trust that the doorway to heaven is open. Even my name will be read one day from the book of life.

That is our righteousness. It is the righteousness of the kingdom, and it is the only righteousness acceptable to God. But then Paul lists these other two features of God's kingdom, and they are peace and joy. And I've thought that he lists these things in the correct order, because when we first own the righteousness of Christ,

then we have peace and joy. They go together. If we have the righteousness of Christ by faith, we have peace and joy in our hearts. I have known what it is. Apostle Paul knew what it was to be on the outside of God's kingdom and what it is to be lacking

that kind of peace that is only found in God's kingdom and that kind of joy. And I have known what it is when I was able to hear from the mouths of believers that all of my sins are forgiven, even the sin of unbelief in the name and blood of Jesus. It's a simple message and it has such unbelievable power

It takes away all of my sins. Clothes me with the righteousness of Christ. And it confers into the heart that peace that the apostle describes as passing all understanding. And it gives the joy, the joy of the finder, a kind of joy that can't be found any other way.

under the cares and distress in this life we can often start to feel like we're losing that peace and joy and amid some of the work of the enemy and his battling against us we also can begin to feel am i losing my peace and joy of believing

I have thought here today, dear brothers and sisters, that we are here as fellow travelers, all of us as brothers and sisters in faith. And we haven't come to judge each other or to battle against each other, but we have come to try to help each other in the battle against a common enemy. And it's important that we see it that way

Those of us who have come invited by the board here to participate in this meeting, we haven't come because we thought we had wise answers. We haven't come because we thought, well, we are right and we can show the correct understanding and way. But we have come because Christian love compels us to want to help each other.

It is the only reason we are here. And when we start to lose that peace and joy that God's kingdom really is, because of those struggles, or because of cares of this life, or especially we lose it because of sin, then

we find above all, sin takes away our peace and joy. But isn't it so that under the blessing of the gospel, that peace and joy are restored? God's kingdom is a place of forgiveness. It's not a place where the one who asks forgiveness is measured or judged or

or put down, but it's a place where the gospel is freely preached. Whenever one wants to hear it. As we've already said here, that today at our visit, how many times have we heard a request for the gospel, and it has been preached freely. And that's how it is here in God's kingdom. The gospel is freely preached.

and it is living, and it's preached through the office of the Holy Spirit, and it has the power to take away our sins and our burdens, and it has the power to restore to us that joy of believing and peace of conscience. And I've thought that that's why the apostle writes elsewhere in this letter to the Romans,

How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things. Have you seen that beauty today here in your brothers and sisters in faith when they have preached to you the gospels?

You know, I've sometimes mentioned this to people, but the power of the gospel was particularly brought home to me when a couple of years ago we were at the bedside of Pat's mother. She went in the last heresy and was there for many, many years, from 1973 to a couple of years ago.

And oftentimes, Pat and I wished and prayed that we could have words to speak to her. She was so dear to us and to our family. When she was on her deathbed, she went into a coma. And for some days, she couldn't speak or respond to anything. And we were standing by her bedside watching her struggle to breathe

one of her last days of life. And for some reason, even though my Finnish language is so weak, I thought, well, grandma's mother tongue was Finnish. I wonder if she could understand yet Finnish. And so I asked her in Finnish, I said, Florence, do you still understand Finnish? And she hadn't responded to anything for days.

And without opening her eyes, suddenly she said in a clear voice, yo. And I was so startled, I actually jumped back from her bedside. And it was amazing. And so I talked to her with my little bit of Finnish and said, you know, it's Pat and Jim and our daughter Mandy hereby.

by your bedside, and it seems like now you are living your last days. Maybe God's time to call you from this life is close. And we want to trust that God knows when is the best time. But I asked her again in Finnish. I said, I have one question for you. And I didn't know if she was understanding anything. And again, without opening her eyes, she said, mitä?

What is your question? And I asked her in Finnish, . Do you want to leave and have your sins forgiven? And clearly she said, yo. You know, there was no time to talk about faith or any other matters to her, only to preach the gospel. And we preached the gospel to her.

I in Finnish and Pat in English, and that was our last conversation with her. She never responded after that. Her hospice nurse told us the next day, I haven't had a hospice patient who was so peaceful as your mother was during the night last night. She's been so restless all this time. I don't know what happened, but we know what happened.

It was the power of the gospel. And we've experienced that power in our lives, haven't we?

And I've thought here even today that in the midst of these discussions, sometimes when it feels like we're going around in circles and getting wrapped around in things and we can wonder how can we care for things and how can we restore what needs to be restored and help those who are struggling to find the right way. How can it happen?

Well, first of all, it only happens through God's power, through his doing. But the power to do it, the power of God, is in the gospel. I ask you, dear brothers and sisters, tonight, do we see God's kingdom the way Paul described it?

When you look at God's kingdom, do you see it as righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost? I was born in a believing home.

grew up in the care of the believers, and except for those years that I was in heresy, ever since then also have been in the care of God's kingdom. And I have to say that God's kingdom here in North America has been a beautiful place to me. It has taken care of me, and this is where I want to remain.

I don't see blemishes or faults or failings with God's kingdom of North America or any place in this world. It's an unerring mother, and I want to remain in its care. How do we see God's kingdom today, dear brothers and sisters?

Do we see it as righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost? How have you experienced the power of the gospel here in God's kingdom? Has it been able to remove from you the burdens and the sins that beset and help to preserve true peace and joy in your hearts?

I think that it has. And we've heard it preached so many times here today, but my dear brothers and sisters in faith, as a weak servant before you, above all, I want to preach to you the gospel.

that you may all believe, even at this moment, that all of your sins and doubts are forgiven in Jesus' name and blood.

Believe freely. Even the weakest one here, believe freely that your sins are forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. It brings peace to the heart, doesn't it? It brings joy to be a believer. God's kingdom is a battling congregation.

but it is nevertheless a good place to be. Good place for sinners to be cared for. And I'd close with a portion of scripture that I often think about because the psalmist David expressed something that expresses so well

the thoughts that I have and what's in my heart. In the 27th Psalm, he expresses what is his desire for this life. One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in his tent.

It's my hope, same hope the psalmist had, that my life, whatever number of days God gives to me, I could spend here in his kingdom. That's where the way to heaven is from.

And as we end our evening, I know that we feel, many of us, that there are still here some unsettled matters and questions. Sometimes it has to happen that God has to work in the hearts of his children. We have heard many things here today that we can take into our hearts.

and ask that God would help us to understand, where am I? Am I a part of this unity of God's children? Am I a part of this peace and joy in the Holy Ghost? And if we find that we are not experiencing that, this is a kingdom of forgiveness and grace. We can put our matters away under the gospel

And no one needs to perish and be lost on the way. God's will is that none would perish, but that all would inherit eternal life. May God keep all of us who are gathered here today together, fellow travelers, on the way to heaven. And one day when we reach the goal,

I hope all of you also see me there at the eternal home that we travel towards. In Jesus' name, amen. Let us close in prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, giver of all things that are good, we want to enclose ourselves

each one of us this evening into your care. Dear Father, you are able to search our hearts. You know the needs of each one of us. And we pray that you would lead each one of us on that way that is everlasting. Help us to put away sin

Help us to live of the gospel and help us to remain as beggars of grace here in your kingdom of grace and bring us all one day to the kingdom of glory there in heaven with you and your son, our Lord and our Savior. This we ask in Jesus' name. Amen.