LLC Board – Wolf Lake Congregation Meeting, December 7, 2019

Phil Alajoki: Before we begin this discussion in opening prayer, I would like to give a heartfelt welcome to all of you that have come here this day. Let us pray. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Almighty and righteous God, our dear heavenly Father, we now have assembled before your holy face and before your holy word. We are thankful that through your spirit you are still in our midst. Continue to reveal unto each of us your kingdom and all that you have prepared or us in your dear Son. Offer this day counsel and guidance so that love and unity and one-mindedness would be restored. Nourish, protect and bear us in your grace. Give unto each one of us to dear Father, hearing ears and receptive hearts. Grant unto us love, patience and forgiveness one to another. Bless our gathering. Be with us this day for the sake of your son Jesus Christ and for the honor and Glory of your name. Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.

00:02:56 I won't take much time here. However, I thought that it would be a fruitful and good that we would go together to to a few portions of God's word for this purpose that each and every one of us unfortunately have not left our flesh and blood at the door. We are all sinful and corrupt. So, it is good to go to God's word and to hear for ourselves what God wishes to tell us. And I ask you when we go to these portions of God's word that each and every one of us would not hear these words were someone else, but would ponder and consider and listen to these words of God for your own heart and for your own soul. The Apostle Paul exhorted believers in his time. He gave exhortation, instruction and comfort. I thought to read a portion that is found in his letter to the Colossians. We will hear these words from the third chapter, beginning with the 12th verse. “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Col. 3:12-16) The Apostle Paul, who we know is as the apostle of love, speaks about this topic very much. I think it is good for us to stop and consider his words that he has recorded for us in his epistles. “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” (1 John 4:7-11) How does this love that the Apostle speaks about, how does it act? The Apostle Paul in a very familiar portion, he speaks about this love from God. “Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.” (1 Cor. 13:4-7) Love that is born of God, it is not that type of love that looks through wrongdoing. It wishes to rebuke in love. As we heard, it does not rejoice in iniquity, but in the truth. This love of God wishes to get to the truth. Rebuke in and of itself from the correct foundation is love. We wish to care for each other. This is what Jesus wishes for us today that we would gather together with love one for another. We would find comfort and instruction, reprove, rebuke from his holy word. Even before all of this, he wishes that each of us can personally believe our own sins, faults and doubts forgiven. This is the love that the Lord Jesus wishes to extend to each and everyone of us. Perhaps we have come with me mixed feelings, our own flesh and blood, our own thoughts, and so forth. Our own fears, worries. But we can set them aside. At this very moment, you can receive this gospel message into your own heart. Uplift your heart and believe all of your sins and doubts and worries forgiven. We can comfortably live of this gospel. It can give us encouragement for this day. It is our strength for our salvation. We can very nicely discuss with love, without fear and trembling, and ask our dear heavenly Father throughout the day to help us. This is what he wishes to do. Again, uplift your heart and believe all sins forgiven in Jesus’ name and precious blood.

Briar Siljander: Good morning and God peace! It is my prayer and the prayer of all of us here that we could have a good discussion. And the issues that have been troubling us could be discussed openly so that there might be clarity. And if God wills, there might be resolution through some of these issues. In preparation for today, I have had some correspondence with Jim Frantti and Randy Herrala, Pat Lake and Joe Wuollet. We discussed some housekeeping matters that I hope have been able to be shared with the LLC board and the congregation. I will just touch on a couple of those briefly. I believe there are some agenda copies in the back. There are three topics primarily on the agenda. The hope is that we could discuss each of these in turn so that we could have more of a dialogue. If it takes more time, as it may, we can carry these discussions into future meetings, as we should. If there are other topics of discussion, we should take note of those. They can be added to the list. There are a lot of us here today. All of the welcome to come in are free to come. One of the challenges that does present itself is to have a dialogue or a discussion. If all of us would be speaking in 5 or 10 minutes, we would be well into tomorrow. So, from a practical perspective, it would be good if the members of the LLC board and the Wolf Lake congregation would speak first and allow that discussion to occur between them. And that others would reserve their comments until that discussion has been able to make some headway, or at least so we can hear from the congregation and the board about concerns that were the basis for us meeting today. I would say also, in the discussions, if we can try to focus on each of these, because they are important. The enemy has created a lot of confusion. Part of our hope here is that we could by addressing one and having a dialogue, and not just a series of speeches, maybe we could come to an understanding even on some of the specifics that have been noted. The other challenge or hope is that we could with a discussion keep it as a discussion. We have seen in previous meetings, where one speaks and four or five hours later we are hearing maybe an explanation of what we thought the concern was or a response to it. I think that has been the source of some of the mutual frustration, at least as far as what I have observed. I have also asked that consistent with past meetings that there would be an official recording of the meeting. And that it be made available. Wolf lake has indicated that they will do that today. So, the first topic stems from the speeches the members of Wolf Lake board from the Monticello board member’s workshop. It was about 8 months ago. In preparation again for this meeting, I sent I sent a transcript of those statements to Jim, Randy, Pat and Joe. I asked that they would share those with the congregation and the board so that we could refresh ourselves a little bit on what was said there. We could gather our thoughts and have a good discussion on what concerns were there. So, with that again, it is my prayer, I think it is the prayer of all of us that we could have a good and open discussion. We ask that God would make clear what these concerns are, and hopefully it will bring resolution. Do we have a microphone floating around? With that I think we can open the discussion.

Jim Frantti: I will stand up here. I am an old school teacher. God’s Peace, everyone. It is good to be here. But at the same time I have to say that, as we heard from her brother Phil, I come here dragging also this old portion and I feel personal weariness, lacking and emptiness on my own part. I ask at the beginning if I may believe my sins forgiven? I want to believe. I come here also trusting that all of you brothers and sisters, who have come here, have come for the same purpose. You also want to believe. We have a mutual goal -- we want to get to heaven together. We don't want to see anybody lost on the way. I know we come here all of us with our own personal prayers. I think that each of you have in your heart prayed that God would be here helping us today. We are also remembered by many, many believers as we gather. And I would reiterate something that we heard from the open prayer from our brother Phil and comments. Actually the portion of the Bible that had come to my mind here this morning was how the Apostle Paul writes to Timothy. I often think about those words in his first epistle to Timothy, when they said that this is a faithful saying and it is worthy that all accept it that Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. Paul applied that to himself. And it applies to each one of us here today. We are chief among sinners. So, none of us can surely feel that somehow we are above anyone else here nor that we have answers. But we depend on each other and on the guidance that God’s spirit give through many different gifts. I was looking at how nicely this church was decorated for Christmas season. When sitting here I thought that, it is a time when we are remembering the birth of our savior. Let us remember why he came. To pay the price of all of our sins, our whole lifetime's worth of sins and the sins of the whole world. So, we have reason to be thankful at Christmas season. We can observe it in the midst of his kingdom.

00:21:45 Our board very kindly gave me this task to just try to make a few opening comments on behalf of the board. I was thinking about it ahead of time. I wrote just a few bullet points on my phone. I haven't really prepared anything beyond that because, my hope and prayer is that -- maybe it is a little bit scary, but I told my brother coming here that I thought I would just open my mouth and see what comes out. I hope you listen to me with charity and love that we just heard about in the opening comments. Briar mentioned the meeting in Monticello a few months ago. I was just reflecting on this that some of our meetings and discussions go all the way back 4 years to 2015. I think what started a series of meetings was there was a sermon kept by our brother Darwin in Outlook. It raised some concern among believers. It seemed like it caused some divisions. Some spoke very favorably of it and some felt very troubled by it. The LLC board and staff had discussed it and thought that if it is causing division, maybe it is best that we not keep it on the archives where it is aired for all of the public and the world to hear. But we did not think that it was fair to our brother that we simply don't keep it there. We should visit with him so he is aware of why it would be removed. Not because we had any questions or doubts about how he believes or anything like that. Simply, we didn't feel that it was good for us to keep it there if it was causing concern. So, we had asked two brothers initially -- Eric Jurmu and Randy Herrala -- if they could come and visit with him just to share those thoughts. But when the request was made, Darwin asked that the entire Wolf Lake Board would be able to participate in that discussion. So, we also asked her brother Jim Jurmu to join. Those three brothers came. It seemed like that discussion did not go well. It was left with some differences and thoughts. So, I follow up discussion was arranged here at the Wolf Lake Church a couple of months later with the Wolf Lake board and speakers and the three that I mentioned from LLC, our brothers Keith Waaraniemi and Jouko Haapsaari we're asked to attend as well. It seemed like that meeting also did not resolve things. There were concerns expressed and some differences. So, subsequent to that, there was a meeting that was arranged at the Menahga Church. In addition to the Wolf Lake board and speakers and the other LLC Brothers, Steve Haataja, Jon Blomquist and I were asked to join that meeting. So, we had that discussion. At that time, the Wolf Lake board made a request that they would like to see a meeting involving some other congregation boards. Our suggestion had been Menahga, but the Wolf Lake board said that they would prefer that it would be the Minneapolis and Rockford boards. So, subsequently we had that kind of meeting Wolf Lake, Rockford, Minneapolis and LLC boards, which was held at Minneapolis Church. That was the series of meetings that took place 3 and 4 years ago. Beyond that there was only actually one other visit that we had between LLC and the Wolf Lake Board .That was held in October 2016 at the Brainerd Church. It was the same group of a LLC Brothers and the Wolf Lake board. I would say of that meeting, most or maybe all of us left with a feeling that the visit went very well. I remember talking with our brother Bruce after the meeting. His comment was, this is the best visit we have had. It seemed like we were able to visit there very openly. Beyond that there have been no meetings between the LLC and the Wolf Lake Board. There have been many other meetings. Midwest area meeting, southern Minnesota meetings, Minnesota congregation Chairman's meeting. There was one meeting I know it was held at Menahga. I don't know who called it, but it was boards from Cokato, Brainerd, Menahga, Wolf Lake. Whoever called that meeting also requested some representation from the LLC board. That was the series of meetings. The reason that I mentioned. First of all, by way of background, how did all of those kinds of meetings come about? I also mentioned it because, as we know the rumor mill is always so active. In fact, I got an exchange of emails from our brother Esa just the other day. He mentioned and I agreed with him. The enemy seems to use the rumor mill to spread all kinds of things that are not accurate. One of the things that was said to me was that the LLC has been badgering the Wolf Lake congregation with a series of 20 some meetings. It simply is not an accurate statement. But anyway, the concerns that have come up. I don't know how to begin to address them. I know that in this agenda that was prepared by Wolf Lake, the agenda item was to share what might have been the concerns from comments made at the meeting in Monticello. There have been so many topics discussed. One is the area of forgiveness in many different aspects of forgiveness. If you would just indulge me. I know this is longer than Briar wished for speeches. But if you would indulge me so it may save some other speaking turns down the road. The phrase of continual forgiveness has come up now and then. It seems to be a bur some saddles. Maybe it would be good if we could just not think about that phrase. I think that we believe, I think we all believe -- this is at least how I view it -- we live continually under the protection of God's grace. We live daily in the forgiveness of sins. It must be so, because we all carry Original Sin. We are all sin-corrupt. If we could not believe that we can live daily in the forgiveness of sins, where would we be? We would not have any hope. We carry everyday this old portion. We heard from Phil. We could not leave it outside at the door. We need to be able to live everyday and every moment in forgiveness. It does not however take away the fact. We have all felt the effect when we fall into sin, how it takes away our joy and freedom, and it stains our conscience. So, we need the power of the Gospel that we could keep faith and a good conscience. It is not a law-minded teaching when we are encouraged to put away sin. At least for me, it does not feel that way. It feels like a loving invitation. Dear brother, you do not have to carry the burden of sin. This is a kingdom of forgiveness and grace. And anytime that you want to hear the gospel, you can ask, and it is freely preached. Robe of righteousness has been a topic.

Briar Siljander: Jim maybe we could address just that.

Jim Frantti: I would like to run down my list and then sit, please.

Briar Siljander: I think that you could but...

Jim Frantti: I would prefer to do that if I could.

Briar Siljander: You said that there is a bur about this term. Now we have heard your belief on what that is. I think it would be good if we could talk about that for a minute.Because that is a point where there is some contention. Maybe we could hear what others have to say about that. I don't want to stop… I don't want to take away from you being able to read those items.

Jim Frantti: I don't have too much more here to say.

Briar Siljander: Okay, go ahead

Jim Frantti: Let me just skip quickly a few. I'm just going to run down the list. I'm not going to even comment. We have discussed robe of righteousness, the time of the 1970s and 80s. We have a discussion about the Church Law of Christ. We have had a discussion about justification. On some of those, I personally do not I do not understand what is the difference? In fact, someone asked me, what you think about what is going on. My answer was, I am confused. I do not know where all of the questions are coming from? All of my life as a believer, we have been taught the way we are still taught today God's Kingdom. Why are there all of a sudden so many different questions and topics that seem to be dividing us. I think the comments that were made in the meeting in Monticello. One of the things that caused people to be a little troubled was that we heard in the speeches of the board members one after another that they were troubled by a letter that have been recently sent out a couple of brothers from Arizona. That seemed to be a troubling letter for everyone who spoke, until we heard at the end from the brothers from Wolf Lake, who said that they agreed with the content of that letter. I have to say personally, I agreed with some of the contents. But I was very troubled by other things in there. I was wondering why it was sent? But what else has troubled me, dear brothers and sisters, has been -- I was thinking of the words that were said by brother Phil how important it is that we approach each other with loving and forgiving hearts and minds. Yet, I have heard many kinds of criticisms, or I would even dare use the word attacks against the LLC board and staff and against some local congregation boards. It is puzzling and it is very deeply troubling, because those who serve on these boards they are servants. There are no lords over the congregation. The congregation appoints servants. As those of you here today know who have been asked to serve, we have not asked for these duties. But we see that if the congregation calls us to serve, it is God’s call. When we think of all of what God has done for us, when he sent his Son to pay for all of our sins, how can we say no, if we are asked to serve? But serving is a position that we are lowered into. It is not some place where we rule or govern. We need the support and prayers of all of the believers in serving so that being faulty servants, we can still try to serve according to God's holy will. I ask that you could remember those who serve your local congregation but also the LLC with love, forgiveness and prayers. We are not battling each other, dear brothers and sisters. We are battling a common enemy. He would like to drag us all down. He has worked against me a lot. He would like to drag us all down. I need your help and I need your prayers. Let us help each other so that none of us is lost on the way. We all want to reach heaven. May God lead us all there.

Bruce Johnson: Jim, your comment about being attacked. I feel that we in Wolf Lake have been attacked for many years. So, it works both ways. Our speakers and board members, who were they put up there by? Our speakers have been banned throughout North American Zion. We have been accused of being an island. We've been accused of being our own mother congregation. And we need the help of all of Zion. But that help I feel -- this is my opinion -- that help has not come from you men. In visiting with some of you guys, I've stated for many years. Because the comment has been made by some that the Church Law of Christ does not apply in these situations. You guys should get in your vehicles, if you have concerns with Phil and Darwin. Come and visit with these brothers one on one. I personally feel that these MBMAC meetings and some of these others, like the Monticello meeting, there was not the love of Christ spoken in those speeches. There were comments there made that the Wolf Lake brothers speak too much of Christ. In my mind, it is all about Christ. Christ is our Savior. It is only him that we are going to be saved. No other man. I'm trying to speak from my heart. I do not know all of you guys. The ones that I do know, I do have great love for them. Can I have my fears and doubts and sins forgiven?

Briar Siljander: I think one of the topics that Jim mentioned that he said has been a bit of a bur, it is the topic of continual forgiveness. If I remember right, in one of the earlier letters that the Wolf Lake congregation sent to the board, there was reference made about how the Wolf Lake congregation felt like maybe some of the issues stemming from board members workshop related to that Phoenix letter. They stated I think in that letter. They thought the most important issue in that letter was how we are Justified. Maybe the LLC board or the congregation could speak to that. We are trying to understand if that is one of the concerns or is it just something that we are on the same page about.

Lori Alajoki: I would like to hear what is the concern about the term continual forgiveness? I live about forgiveness every moment for all of my sins. Jim did mention in his little talk about how God's grace covers this sin-corrupt portion, Original Sin. I would like to ask if do you also believe it covers these sins -- we sin all day long in thought, word and deed. Are these all covered as well? I believe as Luther writes in the explanation of the Third Article of the Creed. God daily and richly forgives me all of my sins. My name is Lori Alajoki.

Anne Vilkama: I just want to address continual forgiveness. I don't know if people got scared by the term, thinking that I can go rob a bank and do anything wild, and God is going to forgive me. It is actually righteousness of faith. I am completely sinful, but when God sees me through the merit works of Christ, I am sinless. We can believe at every moment that I am a pardoned sinner. Then that turns into -- you have the spirit that guides you. You have oil in your lamp. Grace is a teacher. It teaches you to shun sin. Then it comes to the endeavor. God helps us even in that. When we sin. We fight the threefold enemy. We do take care of our matters. But what has concerned me and I've been confused, there have been speakers that run around and say that it is completely wrong doctrine. It is permissiveness of sin. It is almost been like and unwillingness to sit down and let's speak about it. That's why I think it is an issue. No, no, it is wrong doctrine. I know one man sure is still saying that is incorrect doctrine. It is wrong doctrine. You know what, we need to talk to these people and say, it is not.

Esa Vilkama: Just to continue on this theme. I have been doing a lot of research on continuous forgiveness. I've collected a lot of excerpts on this topic. So again, continuous forgiveness means the righteousness of faith. That is what it is. It has nothing to do, for example, with the endeavor or confession. This is the most important -- we could say this is the doctrine of justification that we can at every moment we can continuously believe our sins forgiven. Sometimes I remember Juhani Uljas in his sermon. When we are believing, our sins are forgiven. Isn't that simple. It is so beautiful. When we are believing, our sins are forgiven. There are few other quotes. Luther says, “I cannot say often enough, you must carefully differentiate between doctrine and life. Doctrine is a piece of heaven. Life is a piece of earth. Life is sin, error and uncleanness, misery. Charity must forbear Believe, hope and suffer all things. Forgiveness of sins must be continuous so that sin and error may not be defended and sustained. One more quote here. This is from the SRK yearbook, an article by Ari Pelkonen. Confession is a grace privilege, which brings blessings to the life of a child of God. By confession, we do not become more righteous, as by faith we are already righteous because of the complete merit work of Christ. In partaking of this merit work, the atonement blood of Jesus continuously cleanses us from all sins. I will say, like Anne said. Continuous forgiveness or living in forgiveness at every moment -- grace teaches us, of course, naturally it teaches us to endeavor to take care of matters as a fruit of faith. We have a conscience. Grace teaches us. It does teach us to endeavor.

Sue Johnson: I would like to ask a question. Why was it put in the Voice of Zion that a different voice was spoken? Please explain to us, what is the different voice? It has been a huge stumbling block on our congregation to have that in the Voice of Zion.

Bruce Johnson: To follow up on Sue's question that article in the voice of Zion. What were the concerns with the Wolf Lake speeches? Maybe we should get back to the original topic.

John Stewart: First of all, many greetings from my home congregation of Seattle. I don’t know how many texts and calls and things that I got that remembered you and us here. The other thing that I want to mention. We all come here with mixed feelings. I'll have to say coming up, it has been many years, unfortunately, since I have been here. It felt so warm. I'm surprised at it myself. I thought about this question, what was troubling in Monticello. The only thing that comes to mind. When I heard that there was basically no hope. We can discuss freely and openly these issues North America without any help long-term. To be honest with you, it was like a sword of my heart. Because, I believe that we are weak and stumbling travelers on the way, but God still has his Holy Spirit here in North America. Can't we trust that God can help us? I have felt that way. Granted, in some ways in some of the issues we feel perhaps a little remote in some of the outlying areas. I have to say humbly in my heart. It is not that Wolf Lake is all wet. You are fellow travelers on the way. I think across North America Zion, that is how the believers behold each other. Are there issues? Yes, there are issues. We cannot deny that. The kingdom has been a battling Kingdom since the Old Testament time up to the present. Yet, we need to trust that God can care for us in his time and in his way. We are the ones who are impatient. We want it fixed yesterday. Can't we trust that God in his way will help us? That was sorrowful to me about that meeting. I can't really go into any other details. It hurt.

There was basically a demand or thought that we cannot solve these problems [without] long-term Finnish help.

Whatever it was, it hurt.

Briar Siljander: Wait for the mic.

John Stewart: Anyways, it was pretty clear, I thought. To me that was sorrowful. We should be able to trust that God can help. I still believe that he can. I feel my own weakness and feelings, I need to hear the gospel. Can you preach the gospel to me?

Kent Simonson: This is the case as John says the troubling thing that he heard was just simply that. I ask this question, why are our ministers not accepted to preach in other congregations? Where have they gone wrong the preaching of doctrine? Has it been in discord with the Scriptures? If there is no issue with the doctrine that they preach, why is this the case? There needs to be before steps are taken, it would be said perhaps that the people have been troubled. Our doctrine is based on clear scriptures. If one is rebuked or is in err, one goes to the word of God. This is the love of Christ in the heart. The comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, it is always in accord with the word of God. It is never in discord. This is a question I have to ask. What are the issues with them?

Nicole Lake: I also want to speak to John's comment. I think for our congregation, as a congregation member I have not sat through hours and hours of meetings. For me, I can understand that request for Finnish help. Because for the years that have gone by and all of the meetings that are taking place, I don't think that the first meetings involved the whole board. from what I know but correct me if I'm wrong. I just think of the board members and our speakers that have gone through many, many hours visiting and not coming to a conclusion. I don't think that they wouldn't trust God that he can [help] all of us in North America. That comment would probably come from just not having getting a resolution through hours and hours and hours of discussion with the same people. I really don't think that our congregation and speakers would not trust that God would take care of the believers here in North America.

Briar Siljander: I think the comment that you are referring to, John, it was part of comments from Roger. I don't know if Roger would want to speak to that. Just keeping notes. A couple of the other questions that were asked. What were the concerns about the speeches at Monticello. That is the first topic that we have on our agenda, so we have an understanding, but specifically the in those speeches of concern? It was also asked if there was a feeling that there were still issues with the speakers from Wolf Lake and what are those concerns?

Warren Raisanen: Jim mentioned the letter. I am Warren Raisanen. I figured that I will speak. first of all about that letter, I know what heart it was written in. It is not my nature to get involved in church doings. It is against my nature. But I lived through the 1980s. I went through horrible, horrible times in the 1980s. That went away. But the persecution started again. That is what made me or drove me to start writing that letter. And make no mistake about it, when somebody is accused that they have something wrong with them and we cannot tell you what is wrong, that is the very essence of that terrible time. The Kososian spirit. It put people in hospitals back then and it has today. Persecutions. That is spiritual violence and spiritual abuse. As far as the letter itself goes, I would be shocked if there are no errors in that letter. But the different topics and questions that Eric and I put in that letter, we would like those to be answered. However, the action in the Monticello speeches. I was dumbfounded at the amount of reaction that condemned the letter, but for the most part said nothing specific about it. I was troubled over it for a long time. I heard the speeches and I read some transcripts. It took months to register. And I am very, very sad. “I come to this conclusion. There are some things that are true and correct”. I am reading from a transcript. “but I cannot agree with it. It is not of the right spirit. I will just take one example of the criticism of the local boards and the LLC. Those are criticisms that we can read about in Holy Scripture. When they criticized Moses that you take too much upon yourself. We already heard what happened to them. They were swallowed up by the earth. These people that are making these criticisms will be swallowed up. And if they do not repent, which they have been encouraged by so many here today to do, they will also be swallowed up by the earth, which is the heresy. When they criticize the LLC, they are criticizing God himself, as we have heard so clearly today. Because these men that are serving, they're serving at the will of the congregation, who God has allowed to appoint to that position.” That is exactly contrary to how I believe. I believe that if we do not have total freedom to question our boards on any topic at any time. I'm not talking about being bright-eyed. But if we do not have total freedom to question our board at any time, we have a problem. There's only one guarantee. When you take a group of people, the guarantee is that group of people will make mistakes. They absolutely will. That is not a problem. We all make mistakes everyday and all of the time. It only becomes a problem, when those mistakes are not acknowledged.Then it becomes a big problem. Huss was burned at the stake for challenging that in the Catholic Church. Luther risked his life to repudiate this very thing in the Catholic Church. That is not how I believe. I do not believe that way that if we question what our brothers are doing, especially with the right heart and question out of love. We should have total freedom to do that. If we do not, we come to a position where God is the organization. And that is wrong.

Margaret Mattila: I have a question. If all of these speakers are put up by God, why were all of these other speakers taken down? If you could answer what was wrong with them? Why were they taken down?

Kent Simonson: In regards to what Warren said, Paul writes that there are many forms of administration. There is one Lord and one baptism and one Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is a spiritual place. Jesus says himself, the kingdom does not come with observation, neither shall they say Lo it is here or Lo, it is there. Behold the kingdom of God is within you. So, this matter of the Reformation. I agree with what Warren said. John Huss was burned at the stake for challenging the authority of the papacy. Martin Luther. The root of the issue and the reason for the Reformation was challenging who is the authority in the spiritual matters. The meat of the matter was. We know that there is no salvation for a person who does not believe, but we're justified before God in Christ alone. I think we're finding that this is the correct doctrine from the scriptures. Now there is agreement

Kent Simonson (continued): that it is correct doctrine. I am going to read some parts of Scripture where Jesus speaks of the comforter. As we all know, the comforter is the Holy Spirit. He writes in John the 14th chapter 16th verse. “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever.” In John 14:26, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” In John 15:26, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.” In John 16:7, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” We clearly see here that Jesus defines the role of the comforter. There's one role. It is to teach us of Christ what is done for us and what he has said to us. In John 1 it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” In the first Epistle of John the 5th chapter verse 7 it says, “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” All of us here believe in a Triune God. The Holy Spirit could never be separated from the Triune God. It is the word. It is God. It is Christ. It speaks and glorifies Christ. There's no other role for it. We have one comforter as a child of God. In Revelations it says that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, he is the beginning and the end. There is nothing in between. When this word comes up spirit, spirit. I will go back to John. John says, the spirit of truth will not speak of himself, he will speak of me. Let us not take the Spirit without Christ and make this the Holy Spirit. Luther writes that the ultimate aim of the devil is the separate the Word and the spirit. Luther here has the word spirit with the small letter. Luther said that one should not grant the people the Spirit [with a capital letter] without the word. They can never be separated. So, let us not dream of a spirit that is separated from the Word. There is no such thing. It may be a spirit but it is not the Holy Spirit.

Lori Alajoki: Warren alluded to this during his speech about telling people that there is something wrong with you but I don't know what it is. In the Church Law of Christ it tells us to go to our brothers and sisters to tell them their fault. We tell them what is wrong with them. We don't tell them that there is something wrong with you, but I don't know what it is. You are causing clouds of confusion. We tell them what the matter is. There have been fellow travelers in this congregation that have been told to repent. When they have asked what are they to repent of. They have been told, I don't know, just repent. I believe that is contrary to the word of God.

Mitchell Johnson: I believe that because of the sacrificing of Jesus's body and the shedding of his blood, I have the hope of everlasting life. I would like to ask another question. It is a question regarding Jim’s comment. When he brought up Darwin’s sermon, he said -- I might not get this word for word. Because there were concerns about Darwin’s sermon, we thought that it would be good to take it down. But if Darwin’s sermon was according to God's word and he was preaching God's word, and you thought it was good to take it down? Is that an offense towards God? Jesus does say that the word of God offends.

Dan Lake: I also want to touch on that same topic that Mitchell just spoke of. Obviously, for Jim it is still a bit of concern that Darwin spoke that sermon about 5 years ago. You brought it up again today. After 5 years of being able to study that and you still have not found doctrinal error that you can point out. I can only say this. I think it is time that you look within and ask why you are offended? It was God's word that was spoken, and you were offended. Pray to God that you could find the error in your way.

Briar Siljander: There has been a few questions. I would ask if there are any comments. Jim, you were mentioned. If you want to, you can speak, or anyone else on LLC board wants to touch on the questions. What were the concerns of the speeches? What were the issues with the speakers? Most recently with Darwin’s sermon from a few years ago.

Risto Keranen: Since we are on the topic of Darwin’s sermon. I listened to that sermon that he gave. I also read an article written by Erkki Reinikainen that said exactly the same thing that Darwin preached. It was published in the Voice of Zion in the early 1990s. So, I'm curious then what was wrong with Darwin’s sermon?

Bruce Johnson: Going back to the Monticello meeting. There was a comment concerning continual forgiveness. I will just read it. “This new phrase that they have coined, ‘continual forgiveness’, is nothing more

Bruce Johnson (continued): than the birth of the Pollari Heresy.”

Rene Motari: I do not belong to this congregation, but I do belong to God’s kingdom. So, I hope I can say what is in my heart. I know that Seattle had a discussion regarding this meeting. Both the Wolf Lake Congregation and the LLC board are in the love of the Seattle Congregation. As far as continual forgiveness, Jim Frantti explained how he believes. I have to say that I believe like that. There are a lot of questions being asked here at this meeting. I hope and pray that God can prevail. the LLC can freely speak what is on their heart as far as what the concerns are. I think they should speak about the concerns that have been about the Wolf Lake Congregation. People are asking questions, which is good. I feel that in Seattle we have a wide variety of questions and speaking. Let us remember everyone with love. That is the most important thing. Let us all be able to freely speak what is in our heart, including the LLC board members that are here. John said at our meeting that the LLC is going to Wolf Lake. They did not have an agenda. They're going with love to see if they can help. LLC has answers to any of the questions or concerns. But let us all just speak freely.

Lucy Karvonen: When Darwin first spoke on birth control here in Wolf Lake, I said amen. Then when he spoke in Canada, I thought -- wait a minute. And then he let us know that he does not believe in birth control. But the way he first said it, I thought -- wait a minute. Then I understood that he did not believe in birth control. I was surprised to hear that the sermon had been taken down. I was hoping that he had been visited with first. I do not know if he was or not. That does not really matter now to me. As it was mentioned earlier, God's word does offend many people. They become very angry. If the heart is right when they hear the service, they will forgive errors also. Then about continual forgiveness. I believe that we are continually forgiven. If I would die right now, I do not need to have heard just immediately before I died that my sins are forgiven. Even though I am a wicked being, I am still through the grace of God a believer and a child of God. Continual forgiveness does not mean that I feel like I can sin and be free. That I only have to have my sins forgiven once. No. The fruit of faith guides us and we want to hear that word preached. That is all that I have.

Al Lake: I want to go back to John Stewart’s comment. The foreign voice was in asking for more help from Finland. Or that it would take a long time. I would have to say that I feel that it is a very disingenuous statement on your part, John. We were 10 hours into a meeting where there were accusations of false spirit, accusations of wrong doctrine pointed at Wolf Lake. You can say that I'm reading into things by saying that it was pointed at the Wolf Lake brothers. But based on personal discussions with people in the aisles and in the back, I can say a lot of that was pointed personally at me. So, to turn this at the present time into a statement that the entire problem in North American Zion is because Roger asked for extra help from Finland is being very disingenuous. I do not think that is good. Let us not be that way.

Briar Siljander: John, do you want to respond at all?

John Stewart: Well, I have to restate. It was troubling to me. To assume that there was no fault on one side and all of the fault is on the other side. Hey, look we are all sin corrupt. I will have to say. When I heard that, they don't trust that God can work here. It is a valid question. When it is stated in the way, basically it is not going to be solved without help from Finland. To me it was very sad to hear that. I don't think that I am being disingenuous. I was sorrowful, because I believe that the Holy Spirit does its work here. We heard about the work of the Holy Spirit a little earlier. We can trust that God will help. It is going to be in his time. Those were my feelings at the meeting.

Al Lake: I'm going to ask while you are holding the mic yet. Is that your entire problem? That is the only problem with those speeches, which is the topic that we are on right now -- the first agenda item. The only problem that you had with the Monticello meeting was that we asked for help from Finland?

What else then? Cut to the chase. Let's not side track it.

John Stewart: The other issues that I had. I actually talked to a number of people about this. There was a harshness. I do not think it fosters good dialogue. It comes from -- it is not far from any one of us where we get impatient. We are so quick to dry up. That happens. But does that mean that the Holy Spirit does not do its work here? Of course, it does it work there. We have to believe that. I am uncomfortable, I have to openly say this. I have said it before. When we bring up this topic immediately or quickly about wrong spirit, I don't believe that is an approach that fosters good and open Christian discussion. I think when we look at the issues in Holy Scripture, in particular the early Christian congregations, the focus in those letters that Paul wrote and the writer to the Hebrews wrote, taking these issues and dissecting them to the nth degree, it's not what they needed. They needed the sincere milk of the word as babes that we would be able to believe like little children. We certainly can freely discuss doctrinal issues. Of course, they are important. Let us face one thing. Which of us has such a wonderful understanding of doctrine. I think we have a church full here that would say that my understanding is pretty poor. It is a good thing that we are not justified by some kind of a wonderful understanding. On the other side of that, it is also true that neither are we condemned for our poor understanding. I've had many chances to take joy in that, because my understanding is not very good. But I want to believe like a little child. I felt that the meeting it was really the one thing. I have not been involved in these discussions that have happened in the past. You have to start somewhere. A smaller group is probably a good way to go. When there is a lack of hope and trust that God can help us, it is not a good thing to where we can’t trust that God can help us with open and free discussion.

Bruce Johnson: John, I agree with your last speech, the last part of your speech. For myself, you did not hear the harshness in some of these other speeches that were spoken? Like, “drive the wolves out of the kingdom”. It is time to do that. “We are going to leave you on the wayside”. There was harshness. It was my take on it. I have to ask the question. We sat in that meeting for 10 to 12 hours. To me, not one issue was discussed. Now the people that sat in that meeting, don’t they question it? Not one issue was discussed. I did not see the harshness in the Wolf Lake speeches. Just to ask for help. There was no harshness in that. That is just kind of my…

John Stewart: Bruce, I am sorry. I did not make myself clear. I was uncomfortable with and felt sorrow over the wrong spirit, fingers pointed. I was uncomfortable with that. I even called one of the brothers. We are able to take care… maybe I am too far the other way. I don't know. All of the gifts are needed. I talked to Phil and Darwin after that. I did feel bad. When those kinds of approaches -- the flesh is capable of a lot of damage. We have the threefold enemy. The flesh can do a lot of harm. We grow impatient and dry. So, I was. That is exactly what I was talking about. It is not far from any one of us. But to foster open discussion. We need to talk about ‘us’, not ‘you’ or that person. We need to hear and heed God’s holy and comforting and instructing and exhorting word with the faith of a child. I appreciate that you made that clarification. I was sorrowful about that as well.

Bruce Johnson: I think that when we look at each other through the eyes of the flesh, we see each other, the faults, sinfulness. When we look at each other with the eyes of Christ, we see each other as pure and holy. I think that is the battle.Iit is so much easier to look at each other through the flesh than it is through the spirit. I think that is a lot of what has been taking place in the last 4 years, five years.

Lori Alajoki: Regarding the comments about not trusting… Lori Alajoki. Roger’s comments about not trusting for God's work to happen. Sometimes in life, it is good for each one of us to put ourselves in the other person's shoes and try to understand the situation from their perspective. Have a forgiving mind. Put the best construction on all that we do and what our brother does. We are all here today. I think that every one of us has come with the hope that God will help us. Roger is here. I have children at home. They would like to do Christmas activities and do some baking. I'm sure that all of us do. The kids want to do something. But we all set aside our daily life and we came here with hope. John, I would think that if that was your concern at the Monticello meeting, I think you can let those doubts go. We are all here with hope that this can be taken care of.

Lucy Karvonen: Regarding the brother who had sorrow feeling that there was no hope and could not trust in God's Kingdom. I guess I am a little bit surprised. A brother is asking for help. He has hope that God will provide by asking for that help. What I am surprised about is that there was not given any consideration for that. What would have been wrong with asking? Nothing. I certainly cannot see anything wrong with asking other believers, especially when you are involved yourself. Roger did it so that LLC and all of the people that have been at these meetings would not dry up. It was for all of us that he asked for that. It was not just for Wolf Lake, but the entire Zion.

Roger Alajoki: I guess I hope that, and obviously John himself -- the other LLC board members have not spoken as to what they felt was disconcerting or uncomfortable or wrong in regards to the things that board members said at that meeting. I think Lucy spoke to my thoughts as to what I had said what I said in that speech. It was not, John, that I did not trust that the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, could not solve the problems that have been troubling us for so many years. Certainly it can. Otherwise, we would have to say something of the nature that we do not believe that the Holy Spirit is here. I believe that the spirit of God is in North America, because there are believers here also. To Lucy's point, the reason that I have thought -- the kingdom of God is not something that has borders. It is the whole group of believers here on this earth. As I mentioned in the speech, which all of you have, I was afraid -- and I remain so. John, I had spoken to your own brother. It is very easy -- and Tomm might have spoken that at the meeting. I don't recall. We can wrap ourselves around the axle, especially those individuals, which I am one, have been in some ways involved and at the forefront of these things for many years. For that reason I felt that having it so for many years now attempted to have discussions. They have not borne fruit. If they had borne fruit, we would not be here today. But because I felt -- my own opinion -- that the matters were not being solved or moving even in the correct direction towards reconciliation, what would it hurt to ask believers, wherever they may be, outside of this country, particularly in the Midwest. So, I don't know.. I do not want the sound distrusting. I'm hard-pressed to believe that a meeting was asked for in a letter from you brothers at the LLC and the only issue was my speech in asking for help. I am having some difficulty in believing that. I guess to John, I felt that you say that -- and I have to believe you -- you were troubled with how I had said it. I guess in my mind, you have misinterpreted it as a mistrust of the holy spirit or a lack of it. Hopelessness. I guess I would have preferred that you would have called me. It is what it is. If in some ways you have misinterpreted my intent or the method by which I did it. And it is offensive. I wish to ask for forgiveness for that. Also, John, I think it would be important for you when you make this -- as you have -- that when I asked you for help, it was very troubling to you. The congregation at Seattle had also written to the LLC prior to the trip to Sweden and Finland. Did you feel the same discomfort and offense in regards to the action they took. That suggested that it would be wise to include other gifts. That would be a question that I would have for you. Like I mentioned earlier, I do not wish to come across as distrustful. It is a very unusual thing. It is truly an unusual thing that the board of directors wishes to meet with one congregation over matters of concern, and they are seemingly only limited to one statement in asking for help. I think that there is more to this than that. I would ask all of us, and especially the board, which wrote this letter. Be open and free and say. I think there is more. Those are my thoughts for now.

Carey Simonson: I know we don't want to spend a lot of time and waste time, so to speak. Lucy's speech brought me back to my home, where I know my wife children are preparing for Christmas. I should be there with them. I wanted to come. They wanted to send me with this prayer that God could help. I know that not one of us is important on ourselves. This meeting could go ahead without any of us. Yet they have wanted to send me, as I have been asked to serve. What would I say? For me, this is the first meeting since I joined the LLC board about three years ago. I have never been at the meetings with Wolf Lake board. I have not had the chance to be in this church since I was a youth coming to a Stony Lake youth days 30 years ago. So for me, this meeting was a chance for me to listen to hear what you dear believers in Wolf Lake feel how you believe. We heard that the board members workshop. It was a long meeting. I would just say two things that I would speak to. One, the request for help felt to me almost like a dismissal of the speeches that were presented at the meeting. In the introduction, Harri Vahajylkka spoke about a man who came to him and said that I have 3 questions or four questions. Whatever the questions were. Harri said that when those questions are answered, when will the next question come? That is how that request felt to me. When the brothers would come, what would be the next step? I have been very supportive of us meeting with the Wolf Lake congregation to hear how the congregation believes. Then about the content of the speech. We have the transcript. The tone of the speech was very pleasing to the flesh. It was presented in a nice way. There was no problem with the presentation and how it was delivered -- the speeches. But at the meeting, if I could summarize a long meeting, I heard so clearly many dear brothers speaking how -- these were brothers that I do not know. I feel that they were recently put on boards. They spoke about how this letter really troubled them. Without knowing some thought that this was the LLC's belief that this letter had somehow come from the LLC. They had this impression that this was how we should believe. But as they read the letter, they were troubled. They spoke of how they could feel -- they spoke of how they could feel the shackles that they experienced in unbelief coming around them as they read this letter. Many speeches, as Jim said, spoke. I'm not going to comment. We all speak how we speak. I remember Elijah in the Old Testament. When he was battling, he went over. But yet, God worked through him. The speeches of the meeting spoke how this is not how I believe. Then at the end, the Wolf Lake brothers spoke that I believe like this. That was especially where my concern was. But dear brothers and sisters, may I believe my sins forgiven?

Jim Jurmu: I can’t answer all of the questions, as they were asked. I don't even remember the specifics of many of them. But I do want to say that through the years when we have met, we have heard and acknowledged from others here that things have not been resolved or understood in the same after we have left the meeting or after we left a visit. Like Jim outlined and someone here asked about Darwin’s sermon. That was the beginning of the meetings that we had. Originally, we wanted to come and visit with Darwin or have a couple of brothers visit with Darwin, so he would understand that his sermon caused two reactions -- at least two reactions. There was the reaction of praise and disappointment or doubt or whatever word that you might use. A sermon that causes that, sometimes we as servants, our human portion enters in. We did not speak clearly or we left some understanding that is not accurate. Nevertheless, we wanted to visit. When we left that first gathering, it was a short period of time later that I found out that the meeting which I thought was a meeting of brothers to talk about what was troubling. We tried to explain why that sermon was taken down. Originally Darwin was on vacation or traveling. We couldn't have a face-to-face meeting. But then we found out that the discussion was recorded. To me, this has not how it has been when I visited with brothers in the past about the way and the journey. The speeches of us there, who were poor and faulty, would be passed around. I do not know why we would do that? I understand the thoughts that you would record a meeting that everything that is spoken could be established and understood. That is fine. But why have there been transcriptions or messages sent out? It has caused me to be uncomfortable. The enemy of souls has told me, you do not want to read what you have said. How hard should I examine what has been attached to the agenda? When we were at the board meeting in Monticello, I did not feel like the comments that were spoken throughout the day were towards Wolf Lake or the Wolf Lake congregation. I felt that when the brothers spoke later on in the meeting, I had heard many speeches that answered. Personal thoughts of mine that were expressed by others in their thoughts. I did not understand every speech that was kept there. When I did not understand, I let them go. I tried to let them go. If I was bothered by something that was said, I would ask someone else, what do you understand? Sometimes it has been easy for me to say, okay, that was fine. I have not felt that the spirit of God was not there. I heard the spirit of God. I heard the voice of the Good Shepherd at the meeting collectively through many, many speeches. Then when you brothers spoke. When the transcript has been passed out, I did read it again before coming here, because we were asked to do so. I do not want to go line-by-line. But the question that I had. Did you hear what I heard? It sounded like you heard something that was foreign or upsetting or needed correction. When we have visited on the LLC board, we have not visited about which ministers should be speaking and which ministers should not be speaking. That is a congregation matter. The congregations have put speakers to serve. And they have also asked speakers to rest. And I would say that there have been reasons throughout history why brothers would rest. We at the LLC, while I have been on the LLC board, we have not discussed why or who should or should not be speaking in the local congregations. And when servants have been called to serve, we have rejoiced. When servants have been asked to rest, we have joined with that decision that was made locally. One visit that we did have in the pastoral committee. We were discussing the communication between the Wolf Lake board and the LLC. Brothers, at least Jim or Randy -- I don't remember which -- I did have a thought. I did share that. Maybe we should ask the Wolf Lake congregation if they would like to visit with some of the LLC Brothers. This was only to visit and find out what is troubling us. What is causing a division between us? It doesn't seem to be so much that there is some doctrine that is being spoken or taught that is different. Yet sometimes I do not understand what the questions are asking. Or I do not understand perfectly the robe of righteousness or some of the other questions that have been asked. But I have understood certain portions of God's word in a way where I have tried to explain how I understood. Sometimes that has been accepted and sometimes that has not been accepted. I'm not talking about the Wolf Lake Brothers. I just thought that it would be good to be together and visit. I don't know all of what has taken place since the beginning to today. I have not felt that it is like the LLC against Wolf Lake. Or that Wolf Lake is taking on the LLC. I've not felt like it is a matter that there's some wrestling match going on between LLC board and the Wolf Lake board. But I have felt that the believers are troubled. And for that reason, I thought that it would be good to be together and visit. Yet I come feeling like I have nothing to offer. I can only confess my faith. I can only speak to things that have been on my mind. Not that I'm right, but just so you would know what I have wondered about, like these transcripts that have gone out or recordings. I have shared this in our smaller meetings, when we have met. But in all, I do need to hear, can I believe my many doubts and sins forgiven?

John Lehtola: I have the mic in hand. Should I wait till after lunch?

Briar Siljander: Go ahead.

John Lehtola: There has been a reference to Darwin Lake’s sermon in Outlook summer services 2015. Someone made a reference to an Erkki Reinikainen article, which was published in the Voice of Zion. I have it here in front of me. It was August 1989. This is not the full article from the Finnish. He actually wrote two different ones in the 1980s in the Paivamies. I do have the full Finnish articles. I thought that I would read one of those paragraphs. The end of one paragraph: “The rejection of birth control and abortion arises on the part of everyone as a personal matter on the basis of faith. In Christianity, as elsewhere, there are mothers who have lost their health. The ill, whether they be physically or psychologically ill, need medical help and rest. When a wife or husband is ill, recovering or is physically or psychologically exhausted, the commandment of love teaches that during that time they want to mutually refrain from sexual intercourse. This signifies, as needed, a time of fasting and prayer according to the Word of God and not birth control. The believers have taken a stand on this matter in a large speakers and elders meeting in Finland in the 1970s.”

Bruce Johnson: In the Menahga meeting, Jim, at the end of the meeting when you stood up and said how you believe. If you are using abstinence for preventing children, it is birth control and it is wrong. We all said amen. Remember that? Let us sing the dinner song and go eat.

Anne Vilkama: I am wondering, Darwin has asked forgiveness for the offense this has created. I think that we need to forgive him, and we move on. Why does this keep coming up? Either nay or they, here or there. Any minister can have a sermon of weak words. Like the Finns say, the preacher speaks wrong, but the congregation believed correctly. I think we need to move on. This is not the crux of why we are here today.

Lucy Karvonen: Actually what I thought I said is that initially I thought, hey, wait a minute. But then I heard [Darwin] say that under no circumstances should one practice birth control. As we know, God gives the increase. If we hear something, it is all a matter of the heart. If someone is looking for a free license for birth control, they're going to do it. The bottom line is, it is how we believe. It is our fruits that reveal the condition of our heart. But my question is, do we believe here what John read regarding the article that was about birth control? That is how I believe. Since I have a mic, I have a couple of other things that I was thinking about. Wolf Lake has been painted with a terrible picture. When we went to summer services, we were having a good time visiting. This happened on a couple of different occasions. They asked, where are you from? They backed up. They put their hand over their mouth. You could tell that -- you are from Wolf Lake, a terrible place. That is how I felt. I felt as if I had the plague. Someone mentioned about having taped services or meetings. I think it is good. If it wouldn’t have been that Elmer Alajoki had the annual meeting -- big board meeting. It was in the early 1970s. We weren't able to make it, but we got to listen to the tape. That helped us to know what was true and correct in the eyes of God. Otherwise, we probably would have gone where so many of our friends and relatives went. When we are speaking of faith matters, we are accountable for our words. Are we not? So, I do not see -- myself anyways -- the harm. One individual had the wrong understanding of what I said earlier this morning. So, when we can listen, we can hear better when we hear it the second or third time. That is all that I have.

Roland Keranen: Jim Jurmu mentioned the local congregations are responsible for removing speakers and setting speakers to speak, and so on. The implication I got from what he said -- I don't know if I understood correctly or not -- there is no LLC involvement in that. I went to a board meeting a couple of years ago. I believe that it was in Monticello before the series of dismissals began. It was brought up there by Eric Jurmu. He began that discussion by saying that it is perhaps time to start examining whether some speakers that are causing confusion -- I am roughly paraphrasing what happened -- these actions need to be considered on the local level. These speakers need to be spoken to or taken down. Then Walt Lampi kept a speaking turn immediately after that. I will read the quote.

02:04:02 “The goal is not just to relieve somebody of their duties, but the goal is the preservation of souls, first for those that seem to have a [different] understanding or emphasis, but also for all of us, of the flock of God. I think this is, to me, where we are at. I think, although this group of people can’t make any decisions at this time. I think it is time for us to think about… our brothers that teach in otherwise, and there is contention about them, around them, is it now time for congregation boards to consider this matter very seriously? Take it to their congregations. Is there a change that should be made? This is what is in my heart. I put it before you. I feel timid about it. It doesn’t make me feel happy to think about these things. It makes me very sad that some of these brothers have gathered people around them that seem to have some root of bitterness against God’s kingdom or individuals in God’s kingdom. I pray for them. I, like many, wake up many times in the night. The first thing on my mind is this situation. I pray for those that are opposed and those that think differently. I pray that we could all be united through the power of the Spirit, experience the joy of salvation and continue as children in the kingdom of children in the kingdom of grace and forgiveness. I need your prayers, too, to remain in faith. I need to hear, as weak as I am, that I can believe my sins forgiven.

02:05:24 I think this speaks pretty clearly to the idea that there has been an understanding around that this is not entirely generated at the local board level, but that some decisions were made among people associated with the LLC, perhaps even on the LLC board, that kept speeches later that did not speak against this kind of activity. It is always the task of the local congregation and the local people to decide who is going to speak in their congregation and who is going to be taken down. It is not something that an outside congregation comes to give unsolicited advice -- you should do this or you should do that. I don't know if the idea was disassociate the LLC from this kind of thing. I have to say, this definitely does point of that.

02:06:17 The other thing is the relitigating of Darwin’s sermon. I really have some problems with that. Forgiveness was preached. It is forgiven and it is forgotten. But it does bring to light something else then I have kind of noticed. There are people who raise concerns about certain sermons. They take them more seriously [than] about concerns about other sermons. It seems to be with those that are aligned with the LLC or somehow see things from the same standpoint. Those are above criticism, and you cannot question those. Those speakers are question. But if it is any of those “on the other side of the fence” they are the ones that are examined. I think it points to this what Warren raised earlier at the end of his comment. Has this become, like in Finnish I heard the phrase, or in other words, has this become an institutional type of faith, where we start following the organization and its leadership. There are some, I know, that are following Christ in life, suffering and doctrine. And there are those who have made very clear statements. Friends and associates have said that “I put my trust in the LLC”. “Don't we want to go to Scripture?” “No, I don't need that because I've been told that.” We had a discussion in my former local congregation where it was emphasized -- we don't need to read the Scriptures. There's now all of a sudden an emphasis that we don't need to go to the Bible. All we need to do is hear our sins forgiven. The Bible is replete with phrases and sayings. The second book of Timothy chapter 3 verse 15. It talks about that. “All doctrine ≈is profitable for instruction, reproof, rebuke and instruction in righteousness.” In the Book of Proverbs it says, “only fools despise wisdom and knowledge.” If we start straying from the doctrine, where are we? If we do not stay on the Scriptures, where are we? We could very well be on a slippery slope towards something that this is an institutionalized religion, much like we see around us in the world. The other thing is the idea of what content is in sermons. It has to be the word and that kind of thing. But Steve brought out an important issue that I have kind of noted with dismay for some time. Is faith a

Roland Keranen (continued): personal endeavor or is it dictates given by speakers from the pulpit? Do we not trust the Holy Spirit? Even as Anne just mentioned. The speaker can sometimes err and speak incorrectly, but the congregation still believes. We still hold the speaker as a dear brother. They may have spoken wrong or maybe I misunderstood what was going on. But we do not start thinking in this way. If you let the cat out of the bag, the congregation is going to run out there like a bunch of savages and start going down that road. The spirit of God is far more powerful [than] any one of us here is. It teaches. If I had this idea in my heart that I want to go and do a certain activity that is seen as wrong, it does not matter what the speaker says. I will go and do it. What is most important is the personal faith and if you want to remain obedient to the word. If you want to remain obedient, we still fall short, but we are not out there living this life. We all screw up from time to time. We all need this instruction from the Scriptures, and so on. But we have to trust the grace and trust the spirit to teach through its work.

Priscilla Ylitalo: I hope that I can make my thoughts clear. I am Priscilla Ylitalo from Brainerd. Steve brought out about weak words over the internet. Some of the people of know, I broke my leg in April. I could not step on it for 3 months. So, I was able to listen to a lot of sermons. I was really, really shocked. I was always raised to believe that when you speak from the Bible, you speak from the text. We don't need what I would personally called gossip over the internet. Now, gossip over the internet is like putting pearls before the swine. I won't name the speakers, but there was a sermon in a Phoenix where someone said something about the men with black suits. I was just horrified. This went all over the internet. I have relatives that listen to this. Oh, my goodness. Another one said, I was talking in the parking lot. It did not take me long to realize but this was “one of those”. I just could not believe it. The speaker should open the text and speak of Christ and Christ crucified. We don't spread these. If someone told you a story -- who is doing all of these things. We do not spread them over the internet for the whole world and whoever is listening. I had a text that I was going to read here. It is about reading the Bible. In Alaska, I was told that you cannot read the Bible, you have to have the Holy Spirit to read the Bible. What? When we were younger during the time of the heresy, we were all admonished to take the Bible, open them up. It was a joy to read the Bible. I was in Cokato when I heard a sermon. You can read the Bible from front to back, if you do not have the Holy Spirit… Elmer Alajoki used to say, from a child you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation.. I will start over. From a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus. My point is this. Rumors that are preached over the internet -- I was just horrified. Those were two that I was telling you about. I was able to listen to many sermons, because I couldn't walk on my leg for 3 months. I listened to quite a few. For the most part, when the sermon was done, I would say Amen. Sometimes it was just a shock to hear what I call gossip over the internet.

Bruce Johnson: Just a little comment. I always remember Elmer Alajoki saying that when the internet came around. Now he knows how God's word is going to go to all four corners of the world. I can feel for you Steve and all of you speaker brothers, you tremble when you know that everyone is listening. I know that every one of my speeches would be long gone.

Ken Raisanen: Talking about the ministers. Waino Havas in his book, ‘He Entrusted Us With the Word of Reconciliation’. There have been numerous sermons that speak on something other than the Word and what some people would refer to as agenda sermons. Havas on page thirty-five of his book. “the main principle in proclaiming the word is this, every preacher preach the pure word of God, that is to stay solidly in the Bible. He who speaks, let him speak the words of God.” That is good advice that Havas had. I don't know if any of the brothers that called this meeting, if they would want to... I don't think we were finished up on the first issue on the agenda. The reason for calling the meeting was about the comments at Monticello. If that is done, it is fine. I think we should discuss at length the great issue that is dividing God's Kingdom in America. That is disinviting believing ministers without cause, which is a great sin. It is a sin against God. It is sin against the kingdom of Zion. I will read the bottom portion on page 18 in the same book by Waino Havas. “The Holy Ghost is always a gathering power. It melts believing men into living fellowship. It does not -- listen carefully -- beget isolated Christians, one into one corner and another to the next. But it forms one flock around the Good Shepherd. It unites into one head, Christ, one body, which members are joined together seamlessly through brotherly love.” This idea of disinviting believing ministers, pressuring ministers off of speaking for unexplained reasons is sin. It is pretty simple. When we place ourselves -- anyone that places ourselves… in fact Havas had another portion in. I could probably find it quickly. He said, whenever we place ourselves in a position to consider the penitence of another, we have placed ourselves above a level-headed. In other words, we start to think that we are somebody. We kind of have it figured out. And we are going to whip this other man into shape. That is clearly the work of the devil. It has now been a year-and-a-half since Phil from this congregation was disinvited from Cokato, and they have still not figured out why. So, I think it is clearly a sin. There are other examples where other congregations are followed suit. So, in other words, to go along to get along is a very bad and dangerous path. To go along with God’s word and the Holy Spirit. We do not go along with this dividing business, because that is clearly of the devil.

Briar Siljander: Before lunch John and Jim were able to speak. I would put it out to the LLC board again to make sure that you have an opportunity to voice the concerns. is Jim said, or maybe it was somebody else, you already reviewed the letter that was sent out. we want to make sure that you have the opportunity to speak about what was concerning Wolf Lake board member’s speeches there.

Becky Lake: I think why we are gathered here today is to hear what are the concerns of our speakers, board members and our congregation. It is true, we have a black cloud hanging over our congregation. That is a reality. Of course, I am married to Darwin. As a congregation member, it is really troubling to be in this situation. Somebody brought up about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. I have 12 children. They live with this, too. The whole congregation does, my family members. For my kids, there are problems with your dad. There problems with your parents. What are they? I don't know. I had a discussion with somebody who does not live in Minnesota. They asked, what are the concerns with Darwin? I said, I do not know. If you talk to somebody, I wish you would ask that, because I do not know. We have tried to get the answer to this question. We can't get the answer. I heard the comment from somebody that they came here to listen how Wolf Lake congregation believes. After the first disinvitation of one of our speakers, we had a congregation meeting. The congregation members spoke. They said that our ministers are in the love of the congregation. Their sermons are available on the internet for people to listen to. That is probably how most of the congregation believes. It is out there. So, what I want to hear, what are the concerns, issues and problems? That is

Becky Lake (continued): what we need to hear. Why are the ministers disinvited? They're not going to Menahga. We had shared ministers with Menahga for years and years. They're uninvited from Menahga. They're off the schedule there, also. I'm not speaking in the way that I'm irritated because my husband is not going somewhere. I'm speaking for myself, not as that type of an issue. That is what we need to get to. I don't know if the problem is because there are differences in doctrine. There's been some talk about dismissing doctrine. Teachings about forgiveness -- Do we always forgive? Christ says in the Bible, if you do not forgive sins, our Father in heaven will not forgive your sins. There have been teachings that there are times when we do not forgive. I believe that God is all-powerful and can shut somebody's mouth. I don't think the teaching should be there that there are times when we don't forgive. I think there are actual issues that are differences which are causing these problems. I would like to hear more from those who have come from the LLC board. What are the concerns? Even about the Church of Christ. If someone offends you, go to talk to him between him and you alone. I think that there is a beauty in that. If we can't go talk to them, maybe we shouldn't even say anything. We shouldn't pass things around and go talk to others. I understand that it is hard to talk to others. Maybe you could bring someone with you. I don't think that there is any benefit in going to talk to other people about somebody else. I think the beauty in that is this, so many issues would be resolved if somebody went to talk to another person individually that they had an issue with. And it wouldn't become a big huge thing that was misunderstood from the start.

Adrian Pirness: There has been a couple times mentioned the aspect of the Church Law of Christ. I need to be corrected if I understand this wrong. How I understand the Church Law of Christ is in this way. It is set there for the care when offenses come between us as brothers and sisters in faith. Then there is a prescribed order. We would first visit with the one. Why is it that way? The one that has caused offense may not even realize that offense has been caused. If matters are not resolved, then we would invite others. Eventually, even those matters are matters that would be cared for by the congregation. Then when I consider serving as a servant of the word, if something that I would say raises a question or causes confusion, I have been asked to serve by the congregation. So, I can't put that type of requirement on it. If there is left question or confusion in the listener that everyone that has been confused needs to come to me and visit. But the congregation will care for me as a servant of the word. I guess how I understood this. I make a distinction there, when we are talking about the Church Law of Christ. It is for caring for the offenses that come between us. That does not preclude when weak words would be spoken in a sermon or a public situation in that way. It does not preclude me from going to visit one-on-one with an individual, if it feels like there is that opportunity. The congregation then cares for the servants. Coming here, as many have said, have come with the hope and prayer that, as Phil already said in the opening prayer and comments, that there would be ears that are open to hear and hearts that are open to believe. I have pondered over these past few years, when there has been this request that we need to visit about matters of doctrine. I feel that in many of the discussions at board members workshops and at area-wide board meetings, at summer and winter services, the topics have been about topics of doctrine. How are these matters understood and taught? How do we believe these matters from God's Word? Here we are today. What I am left with is, we have paused around doctrinal questions and matters. But unity has not returned through those discussions. It is the Holy Spirit that calls, gathers and enlightens and brings unity. Unity does not happen through a discussion about doctrine. If we are approaching it from this mindset that we would understand all points of doctrine. Jesus reminds and instructs that first we seek for God's Kingdom. We seek to be a child in God's Kingdom. When in childlike faith we are able to believe, all else is given. For me, it also includes the understanding, which comes through the Holy Spirit. I need to be content with that. Even at that, God keeps things as his mysteries. We won't understand everything. And our understanding will never be what takes us to heaven, but am I able to believe? That is where I am left pondering and wondering. When we consider topics of doctrine, which we have done. The discussions have not brought unity. What remains the issue? There have been comments made in this way at some of the discussions, someone would say in this way. I agree with the introduction, but I do not agree with the discussion. We have already visited here and it has been noted that words can be weak. We can misstate things. We can go overboard. What I have felt in the meetings and the discussions that I have been at, the discussion has not been different from the presentation. In the speeches after the introduction, God through his Spirit has also led and guided. There also I have heard the message of God's Kingdom. So, when we pause around these things and we consider these things, there needs to be a personal question that we all need to ask. Am I in the unity of God's Kingdom that comes through His Spirit? For myself, for my many weaknesses and faults and sins and doubts and fears, can I yet believe them all forgiven?

Harri Vahajylkka: God's peace everyone. I am

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): very timid to ask this for the speaking turn, because I am not a board member of the LLC and I am not a congregation member in Wolf Lake. I am in the sanctuary for the first time in my life. When there has been discussion about local speaker brothers, I have to say that I have never heard their sermons. Therefore, you can fault me if other comments are more timely. But I have had some private discussions with members from, sometimes in our small group. Also, I have gone to LLC board meetings, because I am a shared pastor with the LLC. I have been in America for 30 months. Before that I was 44 years in Finland. What I have to say are my own personal experiences, more from Finland. There are some similarities to the situation in Finland for the past 10 years in my life as the situation is now here. Many of those questions or terms or discussions and concerns are familiar to me, even those that we have been discussing today. When I was thinking of the situation of this upcoming meeting, I thought I have heard everything earlier, for example the question about the robes of righteousness. I heard that in Finland before we came. What does a robe means? Can a believer stain it or not? I heard this discussion in my home congregation in Finland. I know that it was in some locations, not everywhere around the country. You know that there are very many congregations, over 100. I can't remember the number. Then another discussion was about how our sins are forgiven? Are they all of the time or punctually? If sins are forgiven all of the time, what happens when we preach the gospel? I also heard this term ’continual forgiveness’ for the first time in Finland in my life in some discussions. Or is it enough to say, what is familiar to me from my childhood, that we are living under grace. Are there some differences or is it the same question? Also, I recently had some discussions about what is the gospel? Is it absolution? Is that the same as the gospel that we preach that sins are forgiven in Jesus’ name in precious blood. There's also the Gospel of Luke or Mark. It is also called the Gospel. Some of the discussions that we had, when some in my home congregation and other congregations there was some unrest and confusion with some sermons. Some believers felt that they did not hear the gospel. I was present at one meeting, where one sister told that when she left from services, she told her husband that she did not hear the gospel. We had a discussion about that. What is the gospel? Someone said that the core of the gospel is, of course, the forgiveness of sins. If I ask, can you preach the gospel to me, I'm not expecting that you would read the Gospel of Luke to me. But I want to hear the gospel. You all know what I mean. Some of those speakers who were asked, answered -- I remember one -- the whole sermon is the gospel. Of course, if we think about it in this way, the gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ. It is the gospel. But in our spiritual language in this dear God's Kingdom, that when we say that we are preaching the gospel, to me it tells that we preach the forgiveness of sins. This was one discussion. Also, is there forgiveness in the sacraments, especially in communion? If there is forgiveness of sins, how is it in communion? This was one question. What caused unrest? It is

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): quite similar to here. Some of those terms -- like believers, my family members and friends and members of my home congregation, they told that some terms that were used were not very clear or they were ambiguous. Some believers felt that those terms had a new content or meaning. Something is behind. Or is there something behind the term? Some new teaching. For example, it was used with this term continual forgiveness. Is there some new teaching that is not familiar to us? I cannot remember the details. I felt that many of those terms that we use, we can understand exactly right or totally wrong. It depends how my heart is. That is how I feel. Last summer I was listening to summer service radio. There were some older brothers who were recalling spring services in Oulu in the 1960s and the 1970s. I was not even born at that time. They read some old Paivamies articles. It was my father-in-law who wrote the article that they read. It went something like this. Once again God blessed our spring services in Oulu. We were able to wash our wedding garments. It was not a problem for those brothers, some older believers who gathered to talk about this matter. It was not a problem at the time when this article was made. I thought that if my heart is right, I understand that no one can corrupt the robe of righteousness that Jesus made, his righteousness. I would not want to make a big problem out of it.

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): We wash... I remember when I was a child, they called them traveling clothes. It simply means this, when we fall, we take care of matters

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): and put sin away. Also, we had questions -- there was mistrust with some local boards and also with the SRK board. When I was called to serve on the SRK board, it was already over. I remember some of those emails and text messages and calls the people had. There was a real distrust with the SRK board at that time. It was one phenomenon of what was going on. also in my home congregation, we had a discussion that some of our ministers are law-minded. It was not a feeling or an understanding of the whole congregation, but only with some individuals. We had about 20 ministers. They were all Finnish ministers. There was no connection to North America. When I was asked, are the sermons more merciful in Finland than here? Are the sermons here more law-minded? My experience is this that, no. I have found the same faith and spirit. Those sermons that I have heard here, they have fed my soul and faith. When our friends from Finland came to the Phoenix Church and listened to the sermons, they said to us, be free to be here. We see that you have a home congregation here. That is good. It touched my heart. They heard

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): the same message as in Finland. In that way, when I have faced those difficulties and teachings. The kingdom is exactly the same. The battles are the same. It is sad to say, in Finland in one way, it is a paradise,

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): but in another way it is not. God's congregation everywhere is a battling congregation. We have had exactly the same questions. There was one discussion on our board and in our congregation. What are the duties of the board? Do they have any spiritual responsibility or not? Or is it only a temporal organization? When I was on the local board and the

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): SRK board, on the SRK board we talk more about spiritual matters and difficulties and concerns than on our local board. On our local board we talk more about that we need a new roof, this one is leaking. The faucet in the men's bathroom is leaking. Many times also, especially when we had difficulties, we had spiritual discussions, because the work is spiritual. The boards are also

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): spiritual. But I have never felt -- this is my personal experience -- I have never been involved in a congregation or Zion where it is felt that the local board or the SRK board or LLC

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): board has been raised above

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): the congregation. This I have to say with an honest heart. But many times I have met doubting and sinful people, who have been called to serve. That is my very personal experience.

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): ≈I know some people have difficulties and problems and distrust. When I was called, I believe the

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): same way as the brothers. They have never taught me wrong doctrine or a non-Living Word. That is my own experience. I also want to say it here today. It does not mean that any board would be made up of perfect people. Also, we had this question in Finland that what are the acceptable reasons to release a minister from speaking? It has happened in the last 10 years many times in different congregations. In my mind, you can easily find someone from Finland who would disagree with me. This is my picture, an honest picture, the sermons have

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): caused confusion. It is a very

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): general saying. It has caused confusion. What does it mean? In practice or real life, in our home congregation it meant that someone did not come to services. They felt that they were not fed. I have more fear than joy. I do not hear the right voice. It was part of my life. And I want to share it with you. Sometimes, it was also discussed that should there be doctrinal or biblical reasons?

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): ≈If it causes division, we can easily find from the Bible. It is a Biblical reason, if the sermon causes division. Someone says amen and someone says that it is

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): not right. And as minister myself, I feel that if you hear my sermons and it causes something unusual, I hope and pray that you would come to correct me, because it is also my personal faith. It is not only my personal faith, if my sermons are not edifying the congregation or feeding the flock. [If] in some way there is a wrong voice, I hope and pray that God would give me a humble heart and I would say that we have many, many other ministers. We have many other gifts, so I do not have to serve. But because of my own personal faith, I would like to be corrected. Why was it so?

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): Like it has been said many times, I have ≈no right to serve. Also, I'll say some more about those timely and very similar questions. What is the right use of the Church Law of Christ, as ≈Adrian just related. It is given for personal soul care.

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): Preaching and teaching is a public matter. Like Luther says when he explains the parable of the Good Shepherd? The right has been given to the congregation to discuss and criticize, as he used that word. Do we hear the voice of the Good Shepherd or not? Also, the reading of Scriptures and doctrinal books. It was emphasized quite a lot during those recent years. That is good, of course. For me, like it was said in some comments. It should be more like a fruit of faith and a joy to go and read God's word. But if it takes the place of reading God's word. In some way, I felt that, what is behind that? I can trust that I hear the right teaching. That is the reason to go to read God's word. Then we have to ask why I can trust that I hear. I have heard many times, not clearly said, but I asked openly and once again. Is there a wrong teaching here? In some of those messages I feel that here has been a wrong teaching or here is still a wrong teaching. I've only been here a short time. But personally I have not heard a wrong teaching. It, of course, is a matter that we have to discuss if there is. Also, we have to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who opens God's word. Christ is the center of the sermons, of course. We can never preach too much about Christ. But also at the same time in living Christianity, sermons have included the address where we can find Christ, the body of Christ, God's holy congregation. We can never separate one from another. Personally, I feel about this congregation that around me some have lost the view of this beauty or value of the congregation. It starts to seem more like a group of people. These people have difficulties and faults and sins. That is right, of course, but not the whole picture of God's congregation. Also, I heard this term the first time in Finland. During some discussions, someone's feeling later was they felt that there was spiritual violence or bullied. Of course, it is a serious saying. What does it mean? Why is used? When we had discussions, it was my experience, unfortunately, sometimes it turned into reviewing how these matters were taken care of more than what was the original matter behind it all. What was the real matter? As we have heard here there was drying up. A person who has started to discuss with the right and believing heart, when those difficulties continue the heart dries up, there is more and more anger and the feeling that I am bullied. It can be. If we live with these matters, there can also be bitterness, and easily we sin. Like it says in the Christian doctrine, sin always includes unbelief. That is why it is so dangerous. Sin always includes unbelief. During lunch I visited with Bruce. He asked me what can we do when we have these difficulties? I thought that there is one old medicine. If I have a problem with the Duane, I go to Duane and put my arm around him. I say to Duane, I have had something against you. Can you forgive me for this and all of my sins from the heart? Sometimes I have to ask, did you forgive me from the heart? And I have to ask myself. If we ask for forgiveness through the Holy Spirit with a believing heart, and we preach the gospel through the Holy Spirit, we cannot doubt, is there power in the Gospel? Does it really do what it promises that I can believe all of my sins forgiven in Jesus’ name in precious Blood? If I receive this by faith, all things are easier

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): to discuss. But I cannot create this kind of humbleness myself. Only God can give this humbleness. That is the work of the enemy -- it is not. He lives in our flesh. We dry up so easily. I have the fear many times that if I hear a strong attitude or this kind of feeling that I think makes us very fearful. But when the blood drops of Jesus have been received Into the heart, there is always the power. And I said, if they are received. Sometimes a man's heart is so hard that it goes over. It is not received. Then those difficulties continue. There is not good soil. It keeps the soil of my heart dry and hard. It does not help. It passes by my heart. This blood of Jesus never lacks the power of God, as the Bible says. We do not have to doubt this. But, how is my heart? That is so simple, I feel. If there is time later maybe I can say something about the doctrinal matters. These are my thoughts. It was nice to come, but I also had fear and I thought that I have nothing to give. I'm not like a fighting person. I'm a fragile person in my heart. These kinds of difficulties make me very, very fearful. I know that God's congregation is present here. I want to ask, can I also hear the gospel because of my sins and doubts and fears? I wish to believe.

Esa Vilkama: It was mentioned that our ministers are in the love of our congregation. I can say after these four years, their sermon's have been scriptural. Both brothers, they typically go through the text verse by verse, explaining the scripture with scripture. I have not heard them speak wrong doctrine. They have preached the gospel. So, I would say unless I am shown otherwise, I think that those disinvitations of our ministers were wrong. That is one reason for the broken love. Often I hear these terms like confusion, cloud, can't put a finger on it. These kinds of expressions don't really mean much. They are like empty expressions. They can easily be misused against others without really needing to explain anything. So, in this situation, I think it is important that we would discuss these issues in peace and love and in more detail, to get to the bottom of them.

Lori Alajoki: Harri stated something, and I would like a little more clarification. Did you say that if a person hears the sermon and finds that they have to go read the scripture, they are not trusting the spirit. That there might be a fault with the listener? What did you say?

Harri Vahajylkka: What I tried to say. I apologize for my English. It is not my first language. My experience from what I know in Finland, even though -- now we go to a very sensitive area. What does it mean to say that it does not answer to my heart? I had an experience that I had fear to listen to a sermon. I could not say that it was doctrinally wrong. But I shared this feeling with many. Of course, first of all I doubted that I am wrong. But it was different than sometimes I almost asleep. And still it is good. It caused this that there were discussions later about what did you hear? Was it right. Why am I feeling? Something is lacking. It was said that I did not hear the gospel. Something was lacking. Still I cannot say that it was doctrinally wrong. If I think about services. Why do I go to services? I do not go that I would be seen by others, but I go to get food and be glad because of the gift of faith. I am totally okay that if my sermons are not feeding. Maybe they are not always feeding. But I do not mean this. There are mistakes. But if it continues that there is unrest, is that the meaning of services? I do not believe so. Otherwise, it was, as when, there was a group who praised those sermons. One time after summer services, I was told that there was one good sermon. I said, wow, I think that there were 25 good sermons or 30 good sermons. This one sermon was separating -- not separating -- but there are some who had discomfort over it. I'm not saying that this brother was not a believer -- or those brothers. It was also asked, does it mean that they are not believing correctly?

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): Not necessarily. It

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): troubles me a little bit, if I would say it strongly, it is a sin. It could be also taken care of the congregation. Harri, how your matters now? Why are we hearing this kind of a voice? To me it is like

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): ≈a mystery. We do not have any analyzers or sensors that it is green or red. If 65% say it is

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): good sermon, he can continue. No. Do we give any value to this. I simply believe that God's Holy Spirit works in my heart. Many times my heart rejoices. That is the way that I believe. I have read this text but it did not open to me as it opened to the brother who is serving me. I also want to add, it never happens to me randomly. Let us take him down. No. Then it would come from my flesh. If I do not like this person, if he is not close to me, let us take him down. He bought a new car and I am envious. Let us take him down. He is proud. No, nothing like that. If it continues, then it is time to visit. For me, like I said, it is a congregational matter, too, if I start to say that God is not a Triune God or something else that is wrong. For me, it is difficult. I hope that you can take it in the right way. I'm not saying that it is Harri’s emotion that this brother is wrong. He is in a different spirit. No. The congregation calls ministers and takes care of them and corrects them. My oldest son was called to serve one month ago. We were in Phoenix. My wife and I were listening to this event. I remember when the dear brother told the congregation in his final words. That take care of him with love, grace and truth. For me, it was the most touching place. I remember when he followed my path and went to Helsinki to begin his theological studies. I said, Eemil, I have one matter for you. Remember your younger brother, August, who passed

Harri Vahajylkka (continued): away when he was 18 months old. One year earlier, I started my theological studies. I remember those special doubts of the theologians. The sermons are so simple in your home congregation. Why don't they ever talk about the content of communion? It is not so simple. Why are the sermons so simple. You know more. I did not have any doubts when passed away that did he get to heaven? I remember when I prayed to God, give me always the faith of a small boy. Keep me small. I don't need anything more than the faith of a small boy. With this faith, I can freely study as much as I need and I want. I can make three different doctoral theses of theology, if I have childlike faith. It is not a problem then. I told Eemil, remember your younger brother. God keeps us in childlike faith. Don't grow in yourself, because it is dangerous. Don't elevate yourself. Use those gifts that God has given to you and be humble. I think to be humble in faith is important. It is important on the path of serving. I don't see any other way than to discuss if there are questions of my sermons or some other sermons. Let us discuss what is disturbing. I don't remember who kept this sermon about very difficult and sensitive matters about receiving children. I know in my former work how sensitive and difficult a question it can be for believing parents. How many times have I asked when they have come to me, do you know any believing doctor that you can go to. I am a poor pastor. It does not make me a doctor because I am a minister. But we can always talk about these matters as believers. How do we believe? Many times, there are questions that we have no answers to. But if it comes from a believing heart, God lead me and keep me in your congregation. I have seen closely how he takes care of his children. I don't know if I responded to you,, I hope so. Do you don't remember my response anymore?

Bruce Johnson: Just a comment. There has been preacher brothers in this country that had been approached outside of this congregation with concerns over some of their sermons. The response has been that they are being attacked. I have a brother in Rockford that had a concern with a sermon that was spoken there. I felt that he used the Church Law of Christ. He went and approached this preacher brother. He said that he did not agree. After discussion, the preacher brother said that was not his intent. They blessed each other. He didn't feel like this brother needed to be taken down or his sermon taken down. take a rest. This preacher brother corrected himself perhaps in his next speaking turn. Those are just a couple of comments. There are speakers here that have been approached with concerns over what they said in the pulpit. They turn around and call it being attacked. That is

Bruce Johnson (continued): the reality.

Eric Skoog: I have a couple of comments. I believe that as a believer throughout all time our central question is, how are we saved? That is an important matter to focus on. Are we justified by faith or are we -- as I have told some people that I feel is happening -- justified or saved by confession and some righteous works on our own part? The Bible does not teach that. The Bible teaches that we are justified by faith, it is a gift of God, not of our own works. But as a believer because we are believing, we do good works as a matter of life. I do have a question regarding this meeting. I had come here with the expectation that the LLC board was going to as a corporate entity or individually share their concerns with Wolf Lake regarding Wolf Lake as a congregation, regarding the Wolf Lake Board and regarding the Wolf Lake ministers, if there is truly a concern. If there is truly a concern, those concerns should be addressed, not ignored or sidestepped for talking about it today another day. I have a question, because I have heard these comments. Am I right in assuming or wondering whether you members of the LLC board corporately or personally had gossiped about Wolf Lake congregation, their board and their ministers. Is it possible that some of you could be creating unrest? Then the final point or question on my part. Warren and I wrote a letter back in April, which went out. I asked for forgiveness for how it went out, because I felt that it should have been discussed in our local congregation first. But we were not making up things. We spoke to concerns that we had observed, things that we had heard spoken from the pulpit, in conversations, people's understanding or minister’s understandings, how doctrinal issues are believed in faith. In that letter, we attempted in our way to briefly state how we understand those matters, with the hope that these matters could be spoken about and unity in faith restored. I have been puzzled that there has been such great reluctance to speak about any of those issues, which I have seen to have caused division. But I also want to say that, on my own part, I have been greatly troubled with these issues. I felt my own sinfulness. I want to hear that gospel.

Keith Waaraniemi: I first of all, like the other brothers, have come here with my own sinfulness. My name is not sinfulness, but it is Keith Waaraniemi. Jouko just asked me to say my name. I feel very lacking in this. I have my own fleshly pride to deal with and all of the struggles of my own endeavor. I ask, first of all, can I believe my own sins forgiven? I want to be open with you dear Wolf Lake brothers and sisters. I want to remain hopeful and prayerful that God can help us and love in the truth. If we do not have love, as we heard already in the opening Bible verses that Phil read and in other speeches, we have nothing. So, I say that first of all to myself, because I feel my own flesh so close. Of course, the question that has arisen is what concerns the LLC brothers have about Wolf Lake? I will try to speak of those things, similar things that I spoke to at the Monticello meeting board members workshop, not specifically or only about Wolf Lake. But these things, I feel, are broader concerns in North American Christianity. I would also like to hear what concerns you folks here have about me, about us, who serve in the central organization. Because I know that much has been said. I hear roundabout things that are said about me or other brothers. So, I would encourage you also to be open in that regard. So, for the last four and a half years we have had these discussions. I think that we have to say that we have differed on understanding. There is something that has prevented the unity that we have once enjoyed and shared. What exactly it is, God only knows. I will first of all speak to the question of Darwin’s sermon from the 2015 services. Basically, what Steve Haataja has already said are my thoughts about the sermon. I will say in just a general sense that the text wasn't specifically applicable to mother's health issues. But much of what Darwin said in the sermon was correct. But there were also those concerning statements that have been noted, as well, that caused question and concern and confusion that could have been taken wrong, as Steve mentioned. With regard to what Anne Vilkama said here that why are we not allowing that matter to rest, when Darwin has asked for forgiveness? I will say that I was personally -- and I know that many individuals share this with me -- happy about Darwin, or rather the discussion that we had at speakers camp in 2016. When these things were discussed and the gospel was preached, it was left behind. The forgiveness stands. I don't hold anything against Darwin specifically about that sermon. The fact that he asked for the gospel, we preached the gospel and I think we all joined in that. But I don't feel like I have, for example, or brothers that I serve with have kept that discussion going. But even in this discussion this morning, we have heard concerns from you folks here about why there was concern over that sermon. So, that discussion has kept going largely because there are those that don't agree with the fact that there should have been concerns over it and should not have been taken down. I think that is the reason why the discussion continues about that. With regard to withholding forgiveness, Jim spoke to some of this in the beginning but I will add some thoughts to it as well. I agree 100% with what he brought out. But I want to point out that this discussion about forgiveness and withholding forgiveness. My first recollection of it was in 2011 at the meeting of the Minnesota boards or Midwestern boards and speakers at the Rockford Church, which we have every year. The question that was asked there. At that meeting, I had outlined the 1970s and 1980s, the difficulties that we had here in America as well as in Finland. That was the topic of our discussion. I kept a little introduction on that. The SRK had just published some materials in the Paivamies regarding their difficulties with the 1970s. I borrowed from that and I also spoke to some things specific to our country. Then the question came up about these times in the 1970s and 1980s when the gospel was not preached. I had already stated in my comments, was it correct? Of course, we know that there were times that it was not correct and errors were made in not preaching the gospel in that time. But then the question was specifically asked, could there ever be a time -- not now referring to the 1970s and 1980s, but could there EVER be a time when the gospel could not be preached? Brothers gave Scriptural examples of such times. That was pretty much where the discussion ended. But we also discussed, if I recall correctly, that importance that the gospel is unconditionally preached. We are not to evaluate someone's penitence or someone's heart. But if we go to those lengths to say that there could not ever be a time, I don't think that matches up with Scripture. But I want to emphasize that there is no one that I have talked to, nor have I witnessed it in our country or continent that there has been a desire to withhold forgiveness in our time. Yes, there were those difficulties that have been talked about already in the 1970s and 1980s. But today, I don’t see that this is a problem. I think that it is very important that we remember the context of that question. There was not a desire on the part of anyone to look for situations where we would not preach the gospel. Of course, in discussion sometimes when discussing things thoroughly go this way and that way trying to look at hypothetical situations, which is not profitable or beneficial. But that was the basic question. Brothers can clarify if I have not characterized that correctly.

03:25:31 At the 2016 speakers camp, the Minister's camp at Stony Lake, I was so happy that Saturday night. I remember the personal joy that I felt and the other brothers felt. I remember exactly where I was standing in the sanctuary when I visited with Darwin or Phil, maybe both. We preached the gospel to each other. It felt so good. We joined together as brothers, all of us, in the spirit of that forgiveness and those discussions that took place. Yet, I have to say dear Wolf Lake brothers and sisters, I was puzzled by what happened after that camp. I expected, since we had been discussing these things with Wolf Lake board members and speakers, that surely there would be some communication from the other Wolf Lake brothers, other than Darwin and Phil, that would have joined in with those discussions that we had a camp. And even the realization on the part of some of the Wolf Lake brothers need to join into that, which happened at camp and to even take their own away. But it seemed to me like the joy evaporated. It seemed like perhaps the rest of Wolf Lake board, or some of the Wolf Lake board -- I don't want to jump to conclusions -- that somehow there was not unity with the decision or the conclusions of the camp that which was preached there. I could be wrong. And if I am wrong, I know that I will hear from you. That is how I got left feeling about it. That got left troubling me.

03:28:08 I've been asked a few times, have I said that you can speak too much about Christ? I do not remember my exact words. But I do know what intention I have had. When I have spoken of brothers that have preached. And I would even be direct enough to say that some of the speeches of the Wolf Lake brother’s sermons have raised this question in my mind. There tends to be a focus on Christ and the written Word but an avoidance of speaking of the Holy Spirit, the congregation and the endeavor. The Holy Spirit is the teacher in the congregation. The Holy Spirit is the key to understanding Scripture. That has been a concern that I have had. I want to be open about that. When the matters are right in the congregation, there is no conflict between the Word, the congregation and the Holy Spirit. They are inseparable. It is disturbing to me that in this time, I hear voices that seem to want to separate them from each other -- the word from the congregation, for example. We can find lots of people in this community or in these surroundings communities that speak very warmly of Christ and of God's Word. But if you don't have the congregation, you don't have the Word. If you don't have the Word, you don't have the congregation. If I didn't get too far off, those are the thoughts that Luther has expressed. So, the connection to the congregation is so important. And the Spirit of God works in the congregation of God.

03:30:39 Also, in our time we have heard some sermons where it seems like what Harri referred to that speak of the general gospel or the word or sermon is the gospel, which it is. But there is an avoidance or almost skirting around and directly preaching the core message of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins, absolution from the pulpit. That is a concern that I have had. I'm not saying, I myself alone, but I can only speak for myself at this meeting.

03:31:30 I have to say that in some of our discussions with the Wolf Lake board members, it has come across a bit in this way that they are somehow more enlightened about matters of justification. And they want to teach the believers about these things. That has not felt good. Justification is a very important topic. It is central. But I have been concerned by the nature in which it has been discussed sometime, the demanding tone that is around it. You must understand, and so forth. Doctrine is important. But simple childlike faith is what saves us. I have lamented that these discussions about doctrine, they are so important, but I wish that they could take place in a spirit of freedom and joy and love, as they should be.

03:33:01 The care of the mother, the congregation oh God, not only the local congregation, and the mutual understandings of God's congregation are very important. I have to say, sometimes I have -- Bruce my childhood friend brought out in the beginning that Wolf Lake has been accused of being an island and so forth. I have to say that sometimes those kinds of thoughts have come to me. I may be very wrong. But I cannot help what I have sensed and felt.

03:33:56 Roger spoke at the board members workshop on April 13th. He expressed a concern about spirits, as some have already touched on today. The fact that if someone is in the wrong spirit, they are not in a saved condition of heart. I agree with Roger. I don't remember how he put it. But that was the idea that I got left with. We must be very careful when we are speaking about wrong spirits and differences of spirits. Because if someone is not in the right spirit, they are not in a saved condition. But yet we are in the hand of the Lord Jesus. We can be cared for and helped. Matters can be cared for. Even as Scriptures state, if there would be some who are in such a condition of heart, unless they repent, the Lord Jesus will eventually spew them out of his mouth, as Scriptures state. But what I felt, and I personally have felt very careful and sensitive about speaking about wrong spirits. But the Bible does speak about false spirits. But what I felt from Roger’s speech. Maybe another way of looking at this, what have I done, what have I caused that would make the believers wonder about my spirit? Where am I? Like the disciples said, is it I? I need to wrap up here in order to give other brother's time to speak. Eric Skoog spoke about the letter that he and Warren had written. If there are things in there that you want to discuss, we certainly can. I felt personally, I would just say in a general sense that there are errors in the letter. The manner in which it was written and sent out did not feel good. I know Eric has already taken care of that publicly. I join in that forgiveness. But there are many things, as Jim mentioned in the beginning, that are correct and accurate. But there are also things that are inaccurate and perhaps not even doctrinally correct.

Briar Siljander: Maybe you could touch on what those are.

Keith Waaraniemi: I want to wrap this up first. We could get back to that. Maybe someone else could help. I can share some thoughts.

03:37:13 The other thought that I had is. We speak about the 1970s and 1980s. I really wonder if they're still isn't some bitterness or some residue? Maybe bitterness is too strong of a word, but some residue from that time from those families that were affected more. I certainly to a degree count myself in that time. Because, as you know, some of the caretaking that happened around my father was not correct, even though there was need for care and need for discussion. Yet, I rejoice that he was able to forgive and move on from those things. He did not deny his own faultiness. And he carried those brothers that cared for him with forgiveness and love. But I wonder, is there still some residue from that time? I hear comments that pop up regarding specifics of those times, even stated by people that were not part of it. So, I gather that is a discussion that is ongoing. If there is residue and bitterness that is carried from that time, those can be visited about. If there are individuals that have caused offence -- myself included -- I want to visit about those and care for whatever I may have caused. But as we know, the vast majority of those brothers who were more directly involved have gone to rest. We carry them with forgiveness and love. I have heard some comments questioning whether one of these brothers that was involved in caretaking of years ago, did he gain the victory? Did he leave a testimony? It is pretty disturbing to hear. So, may God speak to us. Dear brothers and sisters, my words are weak. I want to be totally open with you. I have tried to do that. But I ask again, can I believe my sins forgiven? I am willing to speak more to the letter, if need be. But I know that there are other brothers that can share this mic, as well.

Briar Siljander: Maybe if you would briefly, since you feel that there are errors there. You could open up the discussion as to what they are.

Keith Waaraniemi: Why don't we see if there is another brother who wants to speak to that first? I would be willing, though.

Eric Jurmu: I also somewhat hesitate to speak the letter, without having prior opportunity to visit with Eric and Warren. On the other hand, perhaps it is okay. It was sent out openly. I did not receive it from them. I'm not sure who I received it from. But I know that it was sent out quite broadly, so in some ways it feels to be an open declaration per se. So, perhaps in that regard, as the apostle says. I don't know if I'm taking it out of context. We can rebuke openly so that all would hear, so that we can all be equally cared for, as well. There were a few things in that letter that stood out to me. One was the discussion about the caretaking of the 1970s and 1980s. Referencing the caretaking of those elders during those times. In that letter, it referenced those caretakers having their own aims. I do not know that to be accurate. I do not know what the aims of those brothers were. I know that we have been asked to serve in our day of serving. We serve in weakness. We come here. We have attended meetings and discussions. We come because the congregation has asked us to serve. We so often serve with weakness. I also feel that it is the same for my many years of serving on boards from the West Coast, Phoenix, Colorado, and now my time of serving here again in Minnesota. I served with many, many, many brothers. I do not know how many on [different] boards. We just remembered the passing of Ed Wisuri from Longview. I served with Ed as a young man there in Longview. We had difficulties and troubling times in the 1980s. He was such a dear brother. And the board that served during that time, they served in weakness, fear and trembling. During those formative years in Colorado and during the years of serving in Phoenix, I did not feel ever once that there was this kind of a servant that was there serving with their own aims. So, by addressing it this way, it casts the seeds the doubt on those former brothers, who served in weakness. I think this is very damaging to the work. Those years were not easy, but they were needed. The care was needed. I needed the care and the congregation needed care. And from those days, we experienced that the love and unity was restored. We see the evidence of all of that -- the building of Stony Lake Camp in the North, the addition of churches and speakers. The work of God's kingdom has gone forward with such vigor. If it was so that the former brothers served and went to those caretaking meetings with their own aims, I really feel that God would not have blessed. But through this God blessed. There was reference in the letter to works righteousness. It stated that there is a comparison between circumcision of the time of the Apostles, the meeting there in Jerusalem. It was viewed as unnecessary. It was compared to the grace gift of confession. Now confession has become a work. I do not believe that this is the teaching of God's Kingdom. It may be a weakness for some. Myself, I have not understood so clearly what confession means and what the sacraments are. So, I won’t for a moment say that there isn't weak and even wrong understanding around the matter of confession or the sacraments. But yet, this is not the teaching of God's Kingdom. The teaching of God's kingdom is that confession is a grace gift that God has given to each of us to use, because he knows that we are sinful. So, by stating that this is works righteousness, that is not freeing at all, but rather it is binding. Now it is forcing the weak believer, the one who needs to hear the gospel more often than another to be reassured that their sins surely are forgiven. It puts them in a box. Now they can't use this gift that God has so graciously given to his kingdom. So, these kinds of wrong understandings and wrong emphasis and the wrong terminology, it is not freeing at all. But when the believer hears these things, the weak, simple, child-like believer, they're fearful. Because all of what they have learned -- I even heard some of these congregation members, not only here but throughout North American Zion, say that how I believed as a child, I do not believe that way any longer. They become more knowledgeable or awakened. It is a dangerous thing. Our forefathers who went before us lived and traveled by grace, under the same grace care of that we travel. To introduce subjects and topics such as continuous forgiveness, it brings to the weak ones and the tired ones worry and doubt.. Is God's Kingdom going a different direction? It needs to stay in the footsteps of the Good Shepherd. This is what the fear is. Then, this mixing up of the Church Law, of which Adrian mentioned, and the caring of the ministers. It is not accurate. There are needs for both. The Church Law is a very important gift and a tool that God has entrusted to us to use. I would hope and pray that -- I have said many times to my own children and the congregation members, I know that I am not very approachable. I also have to recognize now as a grandfather. It would not be easy for my grandson to come and care for grandpa. If it means that he needs to send his father or his uncle to speak to me, it does not matter. I think this is the essence of what God's kingdom has been. To care for us weak servants and weak travelers. Why do we have to be so precise and demanding of exactly how these things need to happen…… It takes away the freedom of God's Kingdom. It becomes a demand that you have to live so perfectly. You cannot err. This is the fear. This is what I have felt through these days of battle. I am worried. there's no question, I'm worried. I'm mostly worried because I know that in battle not all warriors return. I'm worried for my own soul salvation. I only serve with those few gifts -- I try to serve with the gifts that God has given. When we talk about confession, the Bible is filled with admonition to put sin away. In that letter, it took ‘putting sin away,’ and in my mind it placed it into mockery. What is this ‘putting sin away’? Does it mean putting it here and putting it there. To me it means burying it in the sea of grace through the preaching of the gospel, through the forgiveness of sins. The apostle has written in the book of Hebrews, cast all of your cares aside. It speaks very openly and clearly throughout God's Word, in the epistles of John about this need for caring and putting sin away. A clean conscience, as Paul writes to Timothy and Titus, is so important. These are basic and elementary tenets of our faith. But when these things now start to come into question, this is what the children of God fear. My father didn't have many faculties left one year ago. He did not know much. But he still remembered the power of the Gospel. He felt the storms that were brewing. He worried, would he make it home in the same old fashioned way as the former saints? He needed that reassurance. I need the same reassurance that my many doubts and shortcomings in all of this work, lacking in understanding. And I'm weak. I wonder, will I make it to heaven, because I am so weak? I don't have great knowledge of doctrine and Scripture, but I want to believe. Can I still hear the gospel? Can I have my own sins forgiven?

Briar Siljander: Maybe we could hear from Eric or Warren if they want to speak to those concerns raised from the letter.

Warren Raisanen: All right. First of all, I will address confession. Confession in our letter was confusing. I will just tell you very simply how I believe about confession. I firmly believe that I would not be believing without the grace gift of confession. I look at it exactly as Luther did. Basically, confession is not a demand. It is not how we are saved. But our flesh is weak. There are times when does cling, and we do need the gospel. When I say the gospel, it is the forgiveness of sins. I would fight to retain that with my life. Some of these things I do think answer to, as far as the discomfort goes, I think answer to my reference before of the speech made where criticism of the LLC board is criticizing God himself. I do believe that there are some dynamics there that are part of this discomfort or problem. Darwin’s sermon, to answer what Keith said -- that was actually brought up by Jim in the very beginning -- his sermon from 2015. The 1980s was the work of Satan. It absolutely was. I watched people regularly pleading for forgiveness and it being withheld. I watched people being bound in too many cases. Among them, I watched high school children being bound. That is not the work of the Holy Spirit. It was a spirit but it was bad. There were people that had mental breakdowns over that time. accusations that there were serious, serious problems with them. But by the way, we do not know what they are. You are not penitent enough, so we cannot forgive you. Some of those people managed to stay in faith and some of them never came back. That is not the way that things should be done. And I have never understood the reluctance to clearly state what happened then was wrong and why and why it stopped. I know we had a time of many years of peace after that. But these persecutions today remind me of that. accusations with nothing behind them. It is different. There are ministers that have been taken down that we couldn't point to doctrine. We couldn't point to anything. The congregation was definitely behind them coming down, so I understand that. There is a difference this time. There are ministers that have been taken down that there is not good agreement that they should be. That is a big, big difference. As far as the disinviting of these ministers. I do believe without telling these brothers what is wrong with him -- we have to think about how anxious would it make you? You are dealing with the most important thing in our life, the thing that we would forsake our spouse is over, which is our faith. When someone is accused that they have something seriously wrong with them, but it is not told what that is, it is horrible. Some people have had to go to professional counseling to deal with that. Some people went on anxiety medication. The list goes on. I personally do not understand the lack of empathy on that. I cannot understand it for the life of me. I believe that some of you here in this room have some responsibility with that. As far as withholding forgiveness goes. In 2016, three of the Phoenix ministers -- they were young ministers -- they came back and they were talking about that we needed to figure out when not to forgive. That was very, very scary. The congregation did have a discussion on it. And almost unanimously they rejected that. Those three ministers did repent of that. But that was a very scary thing of going back to that terrible time. That is what I have to say right now. As far as the little nits and gnats of the -- I guess I do have some more things to say. As far as the little nits and gnats in the letter. As I said before, I would be shocked if there wouldn't be some errors in there. Another thing that I think we need to be very direct and clear on. I personally was raised in the confession doctrine. That was a scary place to be. I remember being involved in conversations with others that can you imagine if you got into an accident and you died and there was a sin that you hadn't confessed, you would go to hell. That is the confession doctrine. I have no problem with people who believe that and would state that. It is how I was taught. But it is not right. I think with the right heart, we can talk about that and come around. I think some of you on the LLC were taught that. At some point, we I understand there is grace that does cover. If we are believing and have faith, we will be saved. Does that mean that we throw away confession and the forgiveness of sins? Absolutely not. We need it to keep faith, to keep strength, and to keep journeying. I guess that is all I have right now.

Joe Wuollet: I don't know how to start this out. I do have to say what is a demonstration what I have noticed to be a very disturbing pattern of behavior. And that is what I listened to when Keith was talking. This accusation, or using concern as an accusation and to cast aspersions on people’s faith, either privately or publicly. And then refuse to actually discuss what those concerns are and what is the basis of those concerns. That behavior is wrong.

Eric Skoog: In response to those comments that were made, I became aware that there was something happening in 2016, when three of our ministers -- and Warren referenced it -- came back from the minister’s workshop in May of 2016 with what they said was a new understanding. There are times as believers when we withhold forgiveness. In our board meeting they shared this. They spent over an hour talking about examples of when we could do this. We spoke about it at that board meeting and the next two board meetings. Our board agreed that is not correct. As believers, when someone asks for the gospel, we preach the gospel. And we let God do the work. And we will see if the appropriate fruits show. Our congregation had a discussion that fall regarding that same matter, and again rejected that withholding doctrine or ‘understanding’ maybe would be better. These issues of confession, I concur. We wrote in that letter that we believe what Luther says about confession is correct. We use it as a grace gift to support us in faith, but it is not what saves us. Faith is what saves us. With respect to -- I did not really understand Eric Jurmu what you mentioned about circumcision in that letter, because there is no place in that letter where it talks about circumcision. I checked while you were speaking. So, I cannot respond to that. But I do believe that wherever possible with respect to the Church Law of Christ, we are instructed to use it. Those are the very words of Jesus telling us how to address matters of concern within the church, where there is concern or trouble or doubts or fears or anxiety or misunderstandings between believers. We want to keep the matter as small as possible, so we can restore and protect that unity and love. It is not appropriate to gossip about people behind their back and with other people. But I did want to speak to one issue, which Keith had mentioned. Jim Frantti, Keith and Steve Haataja also brought up the issue of the 2015 sermon of Darwin. I don’t know how you look at the matter. But to me -- I heard that sermon. Sure, there were a few sentences that I might have reworded differently, but it was clear what the intent was. I think the proper spirit was there. But I get the feeling that you hold this against Darwin and you have not forgiven him for this. This is four years by my calculation. I believe that he has asked for forgiveness a number of times. I don’t really understand why it keeps coming up as something that is a concern with Wolf Lake and/or Darwin?

Warren Raisanen: I forgot. The other thing was the disinviting of the ministers. To my understanding, in no way does a local board have the authority, not by any stretch of the imagination, to make a major decision like that without the congregation’s authorization.

Briar Siljander: Eric, there was a question about your comparison about circumcision to confession. Do you want to clear anything up there?

Eric Jurmu: I don't remember exactly either. I don't have that document in front of me. I was remembering that there was this reference in that article to circumcision in the Old Testament time and how that was cared for in the meeting in Jerusalem. And how that was likened, now, to this wrong doctrine of confession. I was remembering, and I could be remembering wrong. My apologies, I don't have the document in front of me to clarify that. It is an important thing, but I just don't have a way of checking it right now. Sorry.

Briar Siljander: Keith, your name was mentioned, too. Do you want to respond at all to Joe’s comment?

Keith Waaraniemi: I still state what I did, with regard to Eric Skoog’s comment. I feel that I carry Darwin with forgiveness and join in the forgiveness of the 2016 minister’s camp. If I am not mistaken, there were Wolf Lake members that brought this matter up this morning. I am not saying that Jim did not bring it up, but there were Wolf Lake members that spoke to it and were still questioning that matter. If I am mistaken, I am mistaken. But with regard to what Joe said, I feel that I quite specifically spoke my concerns, whether they be right or wrong. So, I don’t really understand what you are trying to say.

Briar Siljander: There are a couple that have been waiting to speak.

Jim Frantti: Can I quickly speak to Eric’s comment? Eric said the I and Steve and Keith brought up about Darwin’s sermon, and wondered if we are holding that still against Darwin? I would like to clarify that the only thing that I brought up was what was the purpose of the very first meeting between Wolf Lake and LLC. That was my only statement. I did not bring it up to discuss Darwin’s sermon. In fact, I think Darwin would join with me in saying that between us there are no hard feelings or reservations that I have towards him or that he has towards me. We are brothers. So, I didn’t bring it up to discuss anything further about that sermon. I really agree with those who have said that why don’t we lay that question to rest. I don’t question how Darwin believes about the matter of abstinence. And I agree with what Bruce said earlier. He quoted me, so I better agree with what I said. And also with what John Lehtola read. I did not bring it up for the purpose of discussing any more that sermon.

Eric Jurmu: In response to Eric's question, on page 5 of that document I read: “ the desire to add some of man's work to Christ’s righteousness appears to have misled some in our day also. Instead of circumcision in the early church, the issue is private confession. A common phrase is to ‘put sin away’. While the phrase itself is harmless, what exactly does it mean. Who is ‘putting’ and where is ‘away’?”

Victoria Pikkarainen: I am really distressed. I hope that God will help me speak my heart. Keith, when you keep on bringing up about the 1980s and you say some family. I always take it that you are talking about my family. I am not bitter about 1980s. You came to my father's deathbed. You had your sins forgiven, both of you. I'm not bitter. I said at a meeting, I do not know when. I said that I am scared that this time is reminding me of the 1980s. I was maybe 14. I know that my parents went through a lot. What I don't like is that we can’t talk about the 1980s that we are bitter. I feel that we are a free kingdom of God and we can talk about whatever we want. We are being shut down, when we want to talk about stuff. Eric, when you talked about being in a box the forgiveness of sins. Maybe Wolf Lake feels like they are in a box. I feel like there is a huge double standard. I feel like we are not showing charity and love for each other. I like what somebody said today about -- let us look each other in the eye. Would I say this to your face? We all gossip, and it is getting to be slander. I have to say this. Maybe I am really out to lunch. It was after a meeting, one of my friends came up to me and said. “Victoria, I love you, but I have to tell you something about Wolf Lake.” I said, ”what is it?” She said, “they altered the tape of the meeting”. Now what is that? That is evil surmising. That is what we are doing to each other. We are evil surmising. Wolf Lake is being put into a box. I am being marked because I am friends with people in Wolf Lake. They are dear sisters and brothers in faith to me. My friends don't talk to me anymore. We have a huge problem. How are we going to solve this? No one believes, ‘once a believer, always a believer’. I preach the gospel to my children, my husband and I. You say that Darwin and Phil maybe speak differently. My mom told me about Keith. Keith is a comforter. John is a teacher. We are not appreciating each other's gifts. That is what is happening. It is the only thing that I can see. I don't know what it is. And the devil is really having a Heyday right now. We are going around and around a merry-go-round. If you do not talk about these issues, but just keep on talking -- they are never going to end. Can you all forgive me for all of my sins doubts? Then another thing. I have to say this because I have said this to people. If I can say to people, I want to say it in front of the church. When people say that they want to believe like a child. This is what I feel. There have been many sermons lately that I have listened to. I thought, do you know what? I don't feel that they have the love of Christ for fellow believers in their sermon. But I would never go up to somebody and say that actually you need to rest. If we are being childlike, let us visit with our brothers and talk about what the differences are. Is there... I'm starting to wonder. Do people... I'll just stop.

Priscilla Ylitalo: I just want to say, it is all about heart’s Christianity. We have these rumors -- they go both ways. I had a dear friend that said, John Lehtola has got to go. He believes in birth control and television. Oh, how sad. Can you believe it? I know that everyone has a television now on their computers, and what not, if they know how to work it. I don't even know how to do email. Anyhow. One other thing. I had another thought. I can't think of it now.

Amy McEleney: So, I am here because I wanted to hear with my own ears what I have been hearing rumors of for 4 years or more. First of all, I have friends -- if you want to see it this way, I don't know how else to say it -- on both sides of these discussions. The friends on the one side have warned me about Wolf Lake and others in Minneapolis and Rockford. The things that they have told me are slander. They are not true. A lot of it is made up or are a misunderstanding. I don't know how they could come up with some of the stuff. Because, I have gone to those people and talked and found out the truth. What has happened to me, we went to a couple of camps at Hasscib. The one camp that I went to. I had four people who came up to me at the camp, telling me, I am so sorry about your sister and brother-in-law. “What?” “They are not believing correctly anymore.”, “have you talked to them?” None of those four people -- actually one of them did. Three of those people had not talked to them. They were good friends with Sue and Bruce before. Because of rumors about them, they stopped talking to them. The broken love has come from people's consciences being burdened from rumors and slandering. Another person -- a family member -- said that not free with Sue and Bruce anymore. I asked, “why not?” “Because they are not believing correctly.” “Have you talked to them?” “No.” I told them, “I think it is your conscience that makes you not free with them.” My brother Dan just repented. This family member went and told all kinds of things to my brother who was newly repented. Wolf Lake church is screwed up. There are problems in Minnesota. I am screwed up because I visit with people in Rockford and Wolf Lake. So, my brother was asking me. I said Dan, just believe. It is not right to do this to each other. There's no where in the Bible that gives us room to do it. The eighth commandment, if you read it, it is very clear. Does it mean sometimes or does it mean always? My brother who is newly repented, is just wondering, where does he stand? He wanted to come here today, but he couldn't. He said to bring love and greetings to Wolf Lake, even though he doesn't know. He has heard these slanders. With childlike faith, he wanted to love you all. Then, for myself personally. There is a minister…… that has slandered me because of the same reasons. We have had many, many discussions about faith. I just begged him, please, can we just talk about personal faith. Can we read this Voice of Zion article together and discuss it? Why do we have to talk about people and rumors? He himself has never talked to anyone in Wolf Lake. I said, let’s call right now. We can call Darwin. We can call Phil. I have their numbers. Let's call them right now. He told me, no. I trust Keith Waaraniemi and Jon Bloomquist. I believe what they say. Also, there have been sermons that I have heard in Ishpeming that are talking about this ‘opposition group’. I can't remember exactly what the details are. Those sermons divide. Slander divides. Anything that is not of faith and is of our flesh, is it against God, the Triune God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not speak like that. I will tell you a difference of another minister that I talked to. I sent him a text. I tried many times to talk to this minister in our congregation over these matters. It did not go anywhere. I don't know who all in our congregation he has told that I am not believing, all because I think that the Wolf Lake members are believers. The other minister that I texted, I said that I need to talk to somebody as I need help over some of the issues that have happened because of church problems. First of all, I want to be cared for. His response was, you can call or text anytime. First, I want you to know that you are a child of God. Your sins have been atoned for on Golgotha. I believed that. I believed him. That was the Gospel message that we can assure each other and encourage each other that you can believe. My brother is now doubting, what has he gotten into? I keep on reassuring him, you can believe. I do not want to use the LLC board as a group. I don't want to say this in a way that because you are a board member you are in this category. But if any of you have slandered Wolf Lake, the ”opposition group”, please take care of your matters. What are you going to do when you go back to your congregation today? Are you going to say that they do not understand? They are still messed up. Because those are the reports that we have been getting from the meetings that have happened.

Kevin McEleney: Could I add one more thing on to that. I would just ask the LLC board, as a central body for the boards of all of the American Zion. On the subject of disinviting, as far as I understand the status of Darwin and Phil, they are possibly still not welcome to speak in these other churches or they have not been put back on the speaking schedule. So, until those things have been put back to where they were before those matters began, it's not resolved. And if it is not resolved, or if it is, should be put somewhere where all North America Zion can see it. Because the disinviting was done before everyone. I think as brothers and sisters in faith, after loving God capable of doing that, the next thing we need to do is love each other. And leaving not only Phil and Darwin but their families and their wives as some kind of spiritual untouchables is inexcusable. It needs to be resolved. And until those things are done, in the eyes of people who are not right in the middle of these things, we don't see the resolution.

Briar Siljander: Are there any on the LLC board who would want to address that question? [Are] there are concerns at this time for Darwin and Phil?

Roland Keranen: While you are at it, maybe Keith can answer when the appropriate time to withhold forgiveness is? With respect to the 1980s, you said that it was mostly incorrect. That left the door open. When is it okay?

Keith Waaraniemi: What I meant by that is -- I am not going to say that every situation what's wrong. I am not God. I cannot say that. But I emphasize that grave errors were made in that regard. And God helped us.

Anne Vilkama: I just want to touch on the matter of the 1980s. Now, everyone knows that my parents and my two aunts and their husbands in Longview, year after year after year to put them into ‘kosolaisuus henki’. It takes a toll. My father called one day. He said, Anne, I am supposed to dig, dig deeper. What happened in our house? I said dad, it was a beautiful home. You do not have to dig. This was probably when I was 26 years old and 10 months pregnant. Then my mom's blood pressure was so off-the-charts. I knew that one of the head guys on the work committee -- I heard him say, we are going to go out there and bind the Alajoki sisters. I thought, oh wow, that is crazy. How can they have humbleness of heart? They repented all the time. I said, mom, you have to go to the hospital. She spent the whole weekend in the hospital. So, I am not bitter. We should look at what we should have learned. So, at that time, we had a group of men under the work committee that some strange spirit moved them to go across the nation and put all of these people in these spirits. And then to find out later, a few years later, there was no such thing as the Kososian spirit.It was an oddball thing that came out of left field. And that caretaking most of the time was not right. And another thing. These people could never be free. Then came this coined term -- oh, have you seen someone so and so? Are they coming to church? Are they free? It went on and on and on and on. In fact, my father had a joke about it. Are you free? Because they got battered and badgered all the time. Another thing. The same terminology was used. This is another thing. I'm 64. When in our life have preachers been taken down without everyone knowing -- wow -- they really have a problem. Ruben got taken down, John Waaraniemi, Lauri Hakso, Melvin Pirness. Who knows why? The only thing was at that time. A man on the work committee told Reuben, you have a cloud over you. So, we are doing the same thing. Clouds are around people. Confusion is around people. It was all wrong. And we come to find out, the work committee was wrong, not the people that they put down. So, we need to be seriously thinking, what are we doing? What I also don't like is when Keith talks about bitterness. People are bitter. Finland just published a book. I know they have had countless meetings. Two years ago in Helsinki they had a men's evening. The topic was to talk about the 1970s. Talk until you are free. They have been so open. They have written statements. Now, they have written this book about what went wrong and what we should learn. Here, if you say the 1980s, right away they say, oh, you are bitter. No, we are not. That is the hugest stifler of any communication.

Briar Siljander: Jon Bloomquist, did you have anything to say?

Jon Bloomquist: I'm sure many of you brothers and sisters, like me, have had many, many thoughts circulating through your head. Like me, I've been trying to understand. I wish I could tell you that I have an answer. I don't. I have wanted to listen and hear what you what you have to say. We can hear many things in these speeches. Somehow, I have tried to understand that what you are saying is your vision or your perception

Jon Bloomquist (continued): of things. Some things, I would say that I have quite a different perception than you do. I wonder, why is that?

Briar Siljander: When you are saying ‘you,’ who are you speaking to?

Jon Bloomquist: Those who maybe have expressed perceptions of some [various] issues but I just have a different perception. I do not remember who said what and when.

Briar Siljander: From here today?

Jon Bloomquist: Today, yes. Well, I think also from other occasions it has happened where we have been at a meeting. Some thought it was a really nice meeting and others thought it was terrible. Why is that? Why are there two different perceptions of the same event? What is it that causes one to see it in one way and one in another way? I remember at the end of the 2016 speaker’s camp at Stony Lake, Darwin and I and I think it was Randy Herrala or was it Eric Jurmu. One or the other. We were visiting. I remember that Darwin said, it is hard to understand how we got here to the point that we had coming into that weekend? I have the same question in my mind right now. How is it that we got here? There are some things that I think pertain in particular to the Wolf Lake board and the meetings that we have had with them. I have been a part of many of those. That is one thing. But I think that it is pretty clear that there are a lot of people here who are not from Wolf Lake. They were not a part of any of those meetings and those discussions. I've seen that there are a lot of issues that have affected pretty broadly. Now I'm trying to get a lasso on a thought. Lori

Jon Bloomquist (continued): mentioned earlier, try to put yourself in someone else's shoes. I hope that you also, who maybe have some displeasure, if I put it that way, or concerns with the LLC board or somebody like myself, who is an employee for the LLC, if you can also put yourself in our shoes. As Jim noted, he mentioned Darwin’s sermon just in connection with that fact that it was the beginning of the sequence of meetings. Yet there were clearly people here, for some reason, perceived it and were bringing that matter up again that there is a problem with it. I don't think that is true. And there were some who were demanding some sort of justification for that action or explanation for it. The brothers have offered a little bit. To me, and this is not my main point, sometime after those initial meetings, I remember Roger Alajoki and I -- I have to say that Roger and I have always been able to have really good visits. I remember our last visit at the end of a meeting in Menahga. It was a very difficult meeting. We blessed each other in parting. I felt encouraged by that. I guess that Roger would say the same thing. He and I have always been able to visit. And I think that we enjoy visiting with one another. So, we were visiting that evening. I don't remember what the occasion was. He and I were the only ones left at the church. We talked a little bit about Darwin’s sermon. He made the comment as we were talking about it, there was one statement in Darwin’s sermon I think that had that not been there, maybe it just would not have the effect that it did in many listeners. It was about a man working away from. The wife is at home with many children and a heavy load. When the husband comes home, it is okay to abstain. I think that was a case of the example that we were talking about. Roger said that would be birth control. But he said that I know Darwin. That is not what he meant. I explained to Roger my perspective. The issue for us is. I don't know what Darwin meant, but that is what he said. That is what we have to deal with. That is the reality of what he said. I think, for example, in our discussion with the Wolf Lake board, had that been acknowledged, that would have been the end of it. But my experience in the meetings that we have had with the Wolf Lake brothers, the board, it has felt to me like they have taken a very adversarial approach to it. They have been very, very confident, it seems, of their own position. I think that it has made it quite difficult. Look at Roger’s request. I was not actually there at that meeting in Monticello when the Wolf Lake brothers spoke. I left for a wedding. I was reading that this morning. The first meeting, like you heard, was with Eric, Randy and Jim. Then we had to have a meeting with more brothers in the fall. Then we had a follow-up meeting in Menahga. Then they wanted to have a larger group, brothers from Southern Minnesota. We accommodated that. Then there have been larger meetings, like minister’s camp, MBMAC meeting, board members workshop, where there have been people from all over the country, where some of these things have been discussed. At many of those meetings, we hoped that those brothers, like the Wolf Lake brothers, who we knew were of a different mind in some of these issues that they would speak up. Often it was met with silence. Nobody spoke up. Then at some point there was a request for national meeting. The board member’s workshop, which was the meeting at Monticello, in essence it was a national meeting. I think the thing that is troubling about that is that brothers from many congregations have been there. They have spoken, and there still has been a difference and an unwillingness to accept that this is how others see and believe these things. We have had conversations with the SRK about Finnish brothers coming here. We have a very close relationship with the SRK, the SRK board and brothers that work at the office. What happens if they come and they are all of the same mind that the majority of us have been in these meetings. Then where? What is the next appeal? At some point maybe we need to stop and ask, what is it that I have said, what is it that I have done or I'm doing, that contributes to this situation? And not always just blaming others. The other thing that I found puzzling about these doctrinal issues. I don't know where the term ‘robe of righteousness’ entered the public discussion? When did the term ‘continuous forgiveness’ enter the public discussion and become a debate? Those kinds of things. I found myself in a position where I felt like what is being suggested is that you have been teaching wrong about these things. I don't believe that is true. I have wanted to defend what I believe is the right doctrine. When we talk about things it seems -- I remember the meeting in Menahga. It was a joint Wolf Lake, Menahga, Brainerd board meeting. The discussion was going on around this robe of righteousness. I said to the brothers that let us forget the term for a minute. I will share with you how I believe about justification and confession. And I did. They said that, yes, that is the way we believe. Five minutes later we are back on the robe of righteousness. Why? Why is that the case? What drives that? Paul warns about striving over words and things like that. He says that it engenders strife. We see that. I don't remember these terms being an issue ever before. They weren't hot-button items. If we go to the forgiveness issue. It came up in 2011, as Keith mentioned. We gave, I think, Scriptural examples. The two that always come to my mind are Esau, Samuel and then, of course, the Church Law. I have gone back and double-checked afterwards. The understanding I think that was shared there was consistent with what Luther has said about those Scripture proportions, that other Finnish Brothers and Christian publications have been written. It was nothing new. Yet somehow, how out of that comes this understanding that we are teaching the withholding of forgiveness. It is nowhere near the truth. There is a long distance between these two positions. I have to say though it is troubling to me to think that from that speaker’s meeting that three brothers from Phoenix went home with that understanding. I certainly did not get that understanding at that meeting. That is clearly what their perception of it was. That is a problem, for sure. How did it happen? I have visited with Anne and Esa some, for example, about continuous forgiveness, and so on. I finally brushed the terms away. I think we are believing in the same way. I have to say from the bottom of my heart. There are brothers here who can confirm that I have said this to them, like Roger and Phil. I don't know Darwin very well at all. I don't feel that I can speak to that. I have had visits over the years with…… With Roger and Phil some. I just feel like, I can't believe that they understand these issues differently than I do.

That is the question. Now when you go to the question… I don't know if I have heard Phil speak five sermons ever. Probably not. Darwin, maybe ten. I don't listen on the internet. I go to services and listen. At home, I am too consumed with other things. I've been asked. I have gotten calls by people that have been concerned about a sermon. Listen to it. I haven't done it. Why? Maybe I am being irresponsible. I have felt like if I am going to go listen to a sermon, I want to listen to be fed. I don't want to be listening to find something wrong. I know that I shared this with a member of your congregation on one occasion. Others may have listened to sermons and they do have concerns. They can speak to that. I have had calls from people who have had concerns. I shared this. I feel like this cloud that is also over Phil and Darwin, is the cloud that has been over the good part of your board. It has arisen because of these meetings and the way those meetings have gone. And I have been disappointed sometimes that in those meetings, Phil and Darwin really don't say much at all. So, we don't hear what they're saying. On the other hand, they have not said that I disagree with what my dear brother said, for example. I can't support that. So, that is where that cloud, in my mind, comes from. I have looked back. We all look back at these meetings. There are certain things that you would like to be able to do differently, I guess. But, I realize for many members of your board, for many it was the first time that they had served in that kind of a situation. They are not familiar with how to deal with some of these issues, maybe. I think one thing that we learn when we serve in these kinds of public situations as servants, speakers and board members. We have reason to be careful and thoughtful in what we say. I take the document that Warren and Eric sent out. Warren acknowledges that it has all kinds or some errors in it. Think about what that wrought. It was publicly disseminated. I received a copy of it from somebody on the day it went out in the evening. I started reading it. I can't read it because I won't sleep tonight. I will leave it until tomorrow. A day later, I was going into the hardware store in Menahga. A believing sister pulls in. She rolls down her window. Jon, have you seen this document that is circulating? I guess I probably have. She said that another sister had gotten it. The other sister shared it with her. She started reading it. Based on the title, she thought, good, someone is going to now address some of the things that we are going on now.. She started to read it. She got part way through the first page. I don't want to read this. She felt like there was something -- I'm trying to think of the right word -- sick if you will. Displaced. This doesn't feel constructive. To send something like that document and spread it all around American Christianity. You have to think about that. I think every one of us here, including those of us who work for the LLC or are members of the LLC board. We don't have perfect understanding. There are many issues that come up. We read something. We need to talk about this. How do you understand it? There are brothers we know that we can call and talk about to clarify our understanding about it before going to the pulpit or standing up at some meeting and saying it there. Why? Because we want to make sure that our own weak understanding is in harmony with the understanding in God's Kingdom. We have a responsibility. I have been in some meetings, like the Monticello meeting, for example. There were some speaking turns where I winced a little bit. I would not say it that way. Maybe it was a little too quick or a leap too far. Now put yourself in my shoes. I don't know what conversations or what experiences the person who spoke that had. Maybe they are justified in saying what they said. I don't know that. So, I feel a little bit hesitant to take issue with it. I have been in other meetings where someone has said something. I have felt that is out of context, it is clearly over the line. My conscience demands of me, you need to say something about that. It does not seem right or fair. I have tried to do that. I know that others have as well. Many of the things that we have heard here, like rumors and so on. I got a phone call one day from a sister who was pretty upset, I could tell. It about blew me out of my chair. Jon, you have to put a stop to this. Stop what? She was talking about the rumors that were going on. You know what, I don't hear much of that. I don't know about it. I try to guard what comes out of my own mouth. I can't guard everyone else’s mouth, neither can these brothers. I had a call from one sister. She was talking about some things that were said about her. I told her, I know that there have been things that have been said about me. It is like the telephone game that we used to play at haps. I whisper something in Carey’s ear and by the time it gets to Bruce over there, it could be something different. I said that I have tried to be gracious about that, just understanding the nature of communication. It often is without malice. That is just the way communications work. We know how things get distorted. Sometimes it can be with some malice. Oftentimes it is distorted a little bit. You say something. When you ask, you thought you said this, but they heard something different. I've tried to understand that and not chase those things around. If someone says something about me to my face or I hear about it, I can speak to that. But with regards to Wolf Lake, there's something… I understand like many of you have expressed your pain. That is the best way to put it. But I can tell you that when questions have come up about Wolf Lake, I often began in this way when someone has approached me. I said look, you have to remember that no congregation goes to Heaven as a corporate entity. We are individual believers. And there are many dear brothers and sisters, I firmly believe that, in the Wolf Lake congregation. So, I have been open in meetings that we have had with your board. I have confessed how I believe. I have addressed things that have concerned me. I am not sure what is there. I have a sense that the issues that are being discussed aren't the issue. That is my sense. After our January meeting in Menahga this year, I drew the short straw on Sunday evening to give some kind of summary of what was a fairly difficult meeting to our congregation. Everyone was curious and concerned about how the meeting went. I tried to the best of my meager abilities, as I have on other occasions, to put the best construction I possibly could on it. to be gracious. But I had to acknowledge that somehow we are not on the same page. I used the analogy. You put two pianos in a room and they are not in tune with each other. You can play all of the same notes, but they are making a different sound. I think the Wolf Lake Brothers, who were there at the end of that meeting, they would have agreed. We are not quite the same here. One of the things that came out of that meeting. It was suggested and we thought that Wolf Lake board members who were there agreed that we would try to meet in a smaller group, maybe two or three brothers from the LLC board and two or three brothers on the Wolf Lake board. Even in those kinds of meetings, like this kind of a meeting, it is really hard to have a dialogue. People take speaking turns. Ten minutes later you try to respond something you heard.

Yeah, right. We thought that it was agreed to. Later we got the message that they did not want to do that. The reason was that they were feeling the stress and the burden of these meetings. Believe me, we understand that as well. I have to say that I find that a disingenuous excuse to do that. To me, it is a cop out, if I am perfectly honest about it. If you would think that going to that meeting is any less difficult for me than it is for you, that is not fair. My family suffers. I had to take sleeping pills to sleep for weeks. I had to go to the emergency room for stress. And I know that is familiar to some of the rest of you. But to say that we are somehow carrying all of the burden of these meetings, I'm sorry. That is not right. You know that. But that was the message that we got with regard to those...

That was the answer we were given.

Briar Siljander: Bruce, let's just wait a minute. Maybe if you could wrap it up, so we can have a little bit of a dialogue.

Jon Bloomquist: So, that was rejected. I asked Phil Alajoki if just he and me. I understand that it was difficult for Phil. He did not want to do that. He agreed that he would meet if Anne and Esa were there. At one point we had a meeting with Anne and Esa, Kari and Phil and myself. It was very hard for me. I was willing to do that. I feel like, again like Bruce said, that was our perception. That was the message that we got back. No, we don’t want to have that meeting with two or three because it is too much of a burden on our board members. That was the message that was conveyed to us. In some of these meetings, Roger and I have thought and said, let’s get together and visit one-on-one.

Jon Bloomquist (continued): The unfortunate reason some of those visits haven't happened is because we are all maybe too busy in our life. I bumped into Bruce’s Sue at the grocery store two summers ago after the Seattle meeting. I said, come on over sometime, we can visit. There would have been a wish to do it, but it hasn't happened. I think they're going to have to be some of those kinds of visits. I hope that they will happen. I guess what I want to convey here is that, try to put yourself in our shoes, also. It has felt like from the beginning that it has been adversarial. There has been mistrust. It is disappointing. We can't demand it. But why? That is the question -- why has there been mistrust from the beginning? That is why I think -- I guess I don't know, I'm just thinking..

Briar Siljander: Maybe that is something that Wolf Lake can speak to.

Jon Bloomquist: The issues aren't the issue, if you know what I mean. There's something else that is fueling it.

Bruce Johnson: I don’t remember all the things I was going to question on you. I know that perception that you talked about. It is both ways. The cloud of confusion over Darwin and Phil. I asked you that years ago. Why don't you go visit these brothers? Drive in your car. They only live 15 miles away. I don't know the answer to this question. Have you had something against Darwin ever since he was put up for speaking? Only you can answer that. You brought up this meeting in Menahga. Yeah, we agreed. But then Don Lahti brought up that there is a group of people that believe that the robe of righteousness cannot be stained. They are in a wrong doctrine. You could have corrected him. He was wrong. The very first meeting that I was at with you guys. You made the statement something to the effect that if we're not corrected, the next step is that we're coming in the doors of Wolf Lake. And I said, what! In the Menahga meeting, it was the very first meeting that I was at. I'm not agreeing with everything that you just stated. I am not a good orator.

Jon Bloomquist: I see that the brothers are well familiar with my gifts of long speeches. It really troubles me, it PAINS me to hear that. My kids have heard from Darwin's nieces or nephews -- “your dad hates our uncle.” I have heard it indirectly. I don't know where that comes from. I hardly know Darwin. And I think Darwin could tell you that we have never had an unpleasant conversation. I don't have anything against Darwin at all personally. I think he would say, we hardly know each other. I was in Alaska recently. One brother told me. He got a call from an individual who said: Jon Bloomquist is trying to take Darwin down. I don't know where that comes from. I've had questions. I've always tried to put the best construction on things. I don't talk about Darwin.

Briar Siljander: Is there a concern for Darwin or Phil on your part or on the part of the others, where this might come from? That is one of the questions that seems to be there. Why, after a year or a year and a half, whatever the timeframe has been, why is there still this cloud that maybe would prevent them from going elsewhere? I think that is what I am hearing.

Jon Bloomquist: At least from my perspective, it has to do with our discussions with their board, which often they have been a part of at least to some degree. I told a member of your congregation. In my mind, I am not saying in other people's minds, the cloud that has developed around your board -- the majority of it -- is the cloud that is over Phil and Darwin, in my mind. As I have said, I have not listened to their sermons.

I would say that the cloud is this -- this adversarial kind of attitude and approach in these discussions.

well, you know, Bruce.

If it was just me that had that impression. But brothers who have been in meetings that I have not even been a part of, have left those meetings feeling very discouraged and like they were being talked down to.

I'm just sharing that. We also have to hear what other people say.

Lori Alajoki: It seems like a lot of our discussion goes around the recent history, perhaps dating back to 2011. I moved up to Wolf Lake as a single person to pursue a career. I moved back to Minneapolis in 2004. I had a wonderful time in Wolf Lake. I felt loved by everybody. I knew of no strife. It was wonderful. Then in 2006, somebody asked me in Minneapolis -- I completely forgot about this until the trouble is returned. In 2006 somebody approached me enough, Lori, does Wolf Lake have a wrong spirit? I was dumbfounded. All I could say was, no. The thought was foreign to me. I did not continue the conversation. But why in 2006 was this idea going around, already then Wolf Lake may have a wrong spirit?

Craig Kumpula: I am hesitant to speak here, because I am not on the LLC board and not a Wolf Lake member. But just some observations I think that are, at least from my own experience, pertinent to the Wolf Lake situation. By the way, at least in my opinion, they are not exclusive to Wolf Lake, but impact, at this point most, if not all, of our congregations. First of all, something Jon just mentioned, as far as adversarial tones and speeches. We have to be honest, that has happened. But it has also happened from multiple directions and multiple sides. It is not a one-sided thing. I have experienced it myself. And I am not innocent of it myself. We carry our flesh and blood. Words come out that we wish sometimes that we could reel them back in. But they are there. As Jon mentioned, we need to take ownership for our own words, actions, our speeches, our letters, whatever it is that that has gone out. We personally need to take responsibility for those. None of us are beyond reproach. And none of us are without error in these things. We can go around and around about the actions and the things that have happened and things that have been said, things that have been understood or misunderstood and misheard. It does happen. There's no question. It is clear today. And it will continue to happen, because the enemy has been successful in pitting us against each other. He is the enemy that we acknowledge. He is the enemy that we want to fight together. So, there's no question of that. There's also the question that pure doctrine, core understandings, unshakeable tenets of God's Word cannot be removed or misplaced or belittled in any way. At least from my experience, the trials that I have gone through personally, I always come back to this. My comfort especially in these times is in God's Word, his holy precious Word. I feel that in our times it has been challenged. It is challenged in ways that some of you do not recognize. Some of it came out today. You need the Holy Spirit to interpret the Word of God. That is true. But the Spirit and the Word are together there. They are inseparable. There are many portions of Scripture that speak to that. But the implication then is that I as a believer, when I turn to God's Word, yes, I need to have the correct heart. can't demand answers. I need to let it reveal as the Spirit reveals. But are you suggesting then that I do not have the Holy Spirit? That is the implication. It is not directly said necessarily, but that is the implication. So, in these times I think we especially want to encourage the believers to turn to God’s Word with trust. Don't be afraid of it. Open it up with fearful trust that God will speak to you as a believer. Of course, he doesn't reveal something different you than he does to his congregation. And then there is another core issue that has come up. I think it gets us closer to where we need to be in these discussions, at least in my opinion. There is the word trust. There is the word mistrust. A thought that just popped into my head here, as Jon was speaking. There's also misplaced trust. The question to each of us is where do we put our trust? One of the understandings that has troubled me. It has come up today. It has come up in other discussions. We cannot question our boards, our LLC leaders, otherwise we are questioning God. My heart can not join into that understanding…… That is not what the Word of God teaches us. It does teach us that we cannot put our trust in man. It does teach us that we would obey those who have the rule over us. And when you read that whole context of the Book of Hebrews, it is clearly in the context of the word of God -- “Who have spoken the word of God unto you” in grace and truth. We cannot expect from our congregation members that just trust without first encouraging them to turn to God's Word. At least for myself, I would have a real difficulty telling somebody, do you trust me, or don't you think that you should trust me? My inclination would be, let us turn to God's Word. And even together, if we need, let us look at what does God's Word teaches us on this. Don't trust me. Look to God's word. There we find our answers. Turn them away from ourselves. I think part of the picture here maybe that some of you brothers -- and I don't have any beef against LLC or the boards or leadership. I love the work that they're doing with our publications and our music, the camp work, and so forth. But if there is misplaced trust, and we are encouraging people to look to us that we cannot be questioned. We are put here by God, and so forth. We see the ramifications of that come out in some of these discussions. And I hear it with my own ears. “If so-and-so said it, it has to be true. I cannot question that.” It takes away freedom. It is not that we want to mistrust anyone. We want to have free, open, clear dialogue, without fear that if I say something slightly wrong or I can't explain it quite clearly, now I am going to be questioned. And I am going to be put under the bus. And I speak from personal experience. These things have happened. The rumor mill, as we heard so clearly from our sister from Michigan, Amy McEleney, when she spoke. It has run wild. And it is not one-sided. It is all over the place. We have to encourage open, free, clear dialogue, without looking at one another with mistrust, because it works both ways. Trust is not one-sided and it is not automatic and it is not something that we should expect our congregation members to just trust us because we are a speaker or an LLC board member or part of the LLC. No. It is not automatic. Trust comes from when we together go to God's word. There is our authority. That is another issue that has been questioned. Is the Word of God higher than the congregation? There's no question that they are inseparable. That is not the issue. The body of Christ is inseparable from the head. But to me the Scripture is very clear that the head is above the body. Christ is the Word. H and His Word and his Spirit are one, but the Word reigns supreme, as Luther says. She is a far higher Queen above any of us. That is one of my concerns. We are not turning to the place where we need to for our trust.

Kent Simonson: I mentioned it earlier. In the first chapter of John, the Word is God. When we believe the first commandment. The first table of love is that we love God above all things. Jon had mentioned earlier that, where is the appeal? For a child of God, the appeal is always to the Word. The Word is God. So, our heart can only find peace and confidence in the Word. And any hope of reconciliation that we have is only to be joined together in the Word of God. There is the Spirit. It joins together in this Word. So, we can never look further than that. It is our only hope of reconciliation. My perspective means nothing to God. God is not a respecter of persons. For each and everyone of us, our perspective means nothing to him. What does God say? It is very simple. But I have been here for almost 7 hours, There has been very little going to the Word. Where is God? Only found in the Word. This is our appeal, our only hope of reconciliation.

Dan Lake: I would like to speak to this thought that the congregation here has spoken, not just the congregation, but mostly here, has spoken quite clearly to the disinvitation. Jon actually said it quite well when he was speaking earlier. It was met with silence. That is the same thing that we are seeing here. is a reluctance to find something that is divisive. To turn to the word to say that it's right or wrong. I think it is a pretty vast difference, when one says it is wrong doctrinally to disinvite speakers. Others saying, well -- they don't say anything. I would really like the LLC to clarify what their understanding of the scriptures are, when it comes to disinviting and separating the body of Christ. I just don't know that it is right.

Sam Roiko: I am kind of along the lines that Carey was saying. I wanted to come here to listen. I wanted

Sam Roiko (continued): to hear what the concerns that you Wolf Lake brothers and sisters have. Disinviting, as it has been called, is one of them. I'm not sure, as Jon Bloomquist mentioned, if it is the issue or just a symptom of the issue. I will relate a little bit of my experiences over the past year and a half. Our brother Darwin came to serve Elk River on a Minnesota rotation in March of 2018. There were some things when he spoke that I was not sure if I heard right. I don't know if it is even on the archives. I don't know where the sermon is. I haven't listened to it since. This thought came out. Maybe I misheard. When we are troubled, we can look into ourselves and find that faith and be comforted and uplifted and reassured. I thought about that a little bit. It was kind of passing in and out. We weren't able to stay for the afternoon service. With our rotation services, we have the tradition when we have a guest minister, we have them speak the morning service, which is followed by a lunch. And we put the brother to work again in the afternoon. So, be forewarned, if brothers would come. A sister came up after and visited on Wednesday evening. She had the comment that she felt that she went to the wrong church that day. She heard a sermon. -- I suppose she couldn't differentiate it from the sermon from the church down the road. She was wondering where the voice of the Good Shepherd was. That was not the only sister that spoke up. Many others also had a question. We visited about it in Elk River. The thought was that minister’s camp in 2018 was one month away in April. Maybe it would be good if the brothers from Elk River would have a chance to pull Darwin aside and visit. I had hoped to do that, too. As things went, we had a baby on that Friday. I stayed home that weekend when that blizzard came. Some of you remember. So, I never had a chance to visit. But the brothers who were at ministers camp came back with this kind of a message. The majority of those discussions were one-minded. Then there was a time given for brothers or ministers who disagreed with the presentation that Jim Frantti gave that morning and with the other comments to speak. A number of brothers took that opportunity to speak. Sometimes the brothers did not even speak directly to what the differences were and what their concerns were. But a group of speaker brothers chose to speak at that time. We had in Elk River, when we were visiting about speaker brothers to call for the following year. We were wondering how to proceed. The thought was, when speaker brothers chose to speak at that time, maybe it would be good if we would not call them to come serve in serving Elk River, when they chose to identify themselves as being different than the presentation and the speeches. Again, I was not at the camp, so this is the report that the brothers. who were there, have given me. When Cokato took that action and sent George to visit with Phil in the hopes that matters would be taken care of. And the discussion did not go well. So, they thought it would be good if Phil would not come to serve. I guess, I was a little bit surprised. But not knowing what all of the discussions were, I wanted to be humble and accept that maybe the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding those brothers, too. When the matter was visited about last fall at the southern Minnesota boards and speakers meeting, and it had been discussed in a number of congregations. We visited about it in Elk River. One of the brothers in Elk River made the statement that as Paul writes to the Corinthians in the 12th chapter about the many members of the body. This part has been used in the sense that by doing so the hand has cut off the eye, or something to that effect. It is interesting the comments. Put yourself in their shoes, in their perspective. I have been trying to do that. I know if it was me, it would be a difficult position if a congregation, where I was on the schedule to serve, would ask me not to come. It would involve a lot of soul searching for me. I would hope that I would be so humble to say that. I don't have a RIGHT to be a speaker brother. I don't DESERVE to go and preach in any congregation. It is not something that is guaranteed. If other brothers and sisters would have that kind of concern over what I have said or not said, that I would be humble and listen and sit in the bench. We had an experience in Elk River. We had a brother that we called to serve. We thanked God over the gifts that he gave. He served for a short time. In our discussions, it seemed that it would be good if he sat in the bench. One of the brothers said, each one of us is much more valuable to God as a simple believer than to preach in the pulpit, teach Sunday school or serve on the board. The brother in Elk River spoke of this that when Paul writes to the Corinthians about this. Those members of the body that we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor, and our more uncomely parts more abundant comeliness. Then Paul says in the 25th verse. There should be no schism in the body. The members should have the same care one for another. When one member suffers, all suffer with him. When one member is honored, all the members rejoice. I have wanted to think of it in this way. I didn’t hear Cokato say that they didn't think Phil Alajoki or Darwin Lake is a believer. I suppose if they would have said that in that way, then I would say that would be clearly cutting off a member of the body. As the brother in Elk River pointed out in this way, if we sprain our ankle or get a cut on our hand -- Mike Kumpula bashed his hand playing hockey. He has it wrapped in the cast. He shakes his hand with you with his left hand. You have to get used to that. In that same way, if part of the body has a wound, we care for it. We don't use it for the time being. We hope that the wound will get healed. We baby it. We provide it more tenderness, love and care. I wanted to, I guess, think of it in that way. If my brothers and sisters would see a concern and feel that Sam Roiko does not need to be a speaker brother and serve anymore, that I could be humble enough and sit on the bench and go to services and fight the battle that my own flesh would probably have for a while. That I wouldn't be wiser than the kingdom of God or my brothers and sisters in faith, wherever they are in the world. Not just in my own local congregation, not just in southern Minnesota area, but throughout Zion. As Phil read about love, love is long suffering, it is kind, it does not envy, it does not vaunt itself or is not puffed up. It does not seek its own. I would hope that I would not begin defending myself or seeking others who would be defending ME and supporting ME. That is also wrong. That was one of the problems in the congregation in Corinth. Some said that they were of Paul, some said of Apollos, some said of Cephas. In that sense, I hope that matters could be visited about and that matters could be put away with that same old medicine that Harri spoke of. When I came here, I wasn't going to say anything. I wanted to confess how I believe and how I have understood matters. I know that I have had weak words and been impatient. I need to hear the gospel. Can I believe?

Petri Hotari: I want to also bring greetings of love and God's peace. Many sent their prayers. Sam spoke of what I was going to speak to. It was the comment that was raised about not calling speakers or Cokato or.... We are shielded a lot from the details in the east, but we hear of things. So, I also wanted just to bring that perspective. When we hear those things, we hear them and we have prayers. Maybe God will care for these matters now between the brothers and the things that have happened. We have that prayer hope. And also hearing here that it is a sin. I would never... That would be a difficult thing for me personally to say about another congregation. I wanted you to hear that is what we felt that this is happening. Maybe things will be cared for, prayerfully that there would be this visiting. The enemy which we know is trying to divide the love. That we would visit as brothers and sisters in faith as boards. That was a small comment. I know, Sam spoke to it. That was the other I thought that I had. I will stop there.

Al Lake: Sam, I thought that I would touch on your comment a little bit about this disinviting. Darwin and Phil aren't the ones asking to serve elsewhere. It is the congregation that is asking. I don't think that Darwin and Phil have been too upset about not having to be gone all of the time. The congregation has felt a severe sting in the sense that we do hold our brothers in love. We feel that they are preaching according to the Word. And we have asked on many, many, many occasions, what is the problem? I know that you hinted at one, but you didn't come to any conclusion. The same applies to what Jon Bloomquist said earlier. There was hinting that there were board members that are causing this cloud. That doesn't do a whole lot for me. I am on the board. If it is me you're talking about, I would like to know more. Keith mentioned a letter that Eric and Warren wrote. Then he did not give the details. When it goes down this road, that is slander. It is simply smearing our good name. And that leaves a very black mark on this entire congregation, because we do find our brothers to be in the love of the congregation. There was another point that I wanted to talk about. This was on withholding forgiveness. Christ gave us a mission command, to go and teach all nations.There was one word that I would like to touch on, and that is to teach. There have been several comments today that said that Wolf Lake is ‘teaching’. Well, that is the command of Christ. I am more than happy to do so with the Word. Jesus says, teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. This is what our entire desire is that all would be saved. So, when we are confessing our faith either publicly or privately, it is in the hopes that people would be saved. The point is -- that it is the mission command. It is pretty hard to say that we shouldn't confess our faith and preach about the good works of Christ to all mankind, which is essentially the gospel message that they would believe their sins forgiven. Then we go to other words of Christ. He says, forgive. This is now concerning trespasses. But as far as sins, we are preaching that Christ has died for the sins of the entire world. That would be in 2 Corinthians 5 starting about verse 20. I don't have my Bible in front of me. But says that we are ambassadors for Christ, beseeching you in God’s stead. Be reconciled to Christ. This is exactly what we want to do. This is not withholding. The entire purpose is that souls would be saved, concerning sin. The rest of this then is trespasses, where we have offended brothers. Christ himself gave several statements on that. He said, forgive. No where did he say to withhold forgiveness concerning trespasses. He did give the Church Law of Christ. If your brother doesn't hear, then you would treat him as a heathen and a publican after bringing it to the church. But this does not deny it anywhere, if the person asks for the gospel, you would forgive. We could study the Church Law, if we got a problem on that in chapter 18 of Matthew. But it's very clear that as far as trespasses are concerned, whether they ask or not, we have to forgive. Forgiveness is given no matter what. If they do ask, of course, we are going to forgive. I find absolutely no point where we would withhold the gospel.

John Lehtola: Someone made reference to the minister’s camp at Stony Lake 2018 in April. At the beginning of the 4 p.m. session when Ray Waaraniemi was the moderator, he allowed people to come to the front of the line, if they wanted to use that opportunity. It has been stated that Ray said that those who were in opposition to Jim Frantti’s presentation, which started with on Saturday morning, they could now come to the front of the line to speak. I will quote to you what Ray said.

05:44:48 “Dear brothers, may the peace of God which passes all understanding keep your hearts and minds in Jesus Christ.

05:44:56 So, thinking as we begin this session we thought that if we would open up the opportunity for anyone who would like to speak to maybe that they didn’t feel the same kind of unity with the thoughts expressed in the presentation OR the matter of continual forgiveness OR

John Lehtola (continued): any thoughts that you would like to express that maybe you feel that your viewpoint hasn’t been represented. But we also wanted to allow that freedom for loving one another and wanting – even as we heard exhortation -- that we would listen to all. As participants, we can also have that freedom that even if we have a thought that seems to differ from most of the thoughts that are being expressed, here you can be free to express those. We promise to listen and consider those thoughts.”

05:46:12 So, not only did he say, if you disagree, but if you have something to say on continual forgiveness OR if you have anything on your mind that would like to say at this moment, you have the freedom to speak up. As a result, Scott Simonson, Craig Kumpula, Phil Alajoki, John Lehtola and Darwin Lake took that opportunity to speak. They were all in a row, before it went back to where it ended before the 4 PM session began. I wasn't even going to say anything, but I thought it was such a loving and beckoning invitation from Ray Waaraniemi that people with a loving and open mind would listen to any thoughts that were expressed. So, I grabbed the mic as it was going by.

05:47:11 I've been translating the new SRK history book that just came out. I have Section 3 all translated already I won't read the entire section, because it is about 80 pages long. The conclusion of the tumultuous years of the 1970s, I'll just read this. It has been reference to the 1970s that if you refer to them that you are bitter and have Unforgiven sins, and so on and so forth. This is Ari-Pekka’s conclusion.

05:47:48 “The doctrine of spirits, public reprimands, placing conditions on forgiveness had a central effect that some of the people who received care at caretaking meetings in the 1970s considered it as mental and spiritual violence..

John Lehtola (continued): It is easy to understand that the situation seemed traumatic, when one was publicly rebuked about things that he did not understand and was not forgiven because forgiveness was not asked in the right way. The meetings were also especially traumatic to children and youth. [who happened to be in the audience]

05:48:41 “In spite of it all, only a small minority of those receiving care departed from Conservative Laestadianism in the 1970s. There were more people who bore their trauma in silence, but only later were they able to speak about it..

John Lehtola (continued): The largest portion of the Conservative Laestadians who witnessed the caretaking meetings were left with no trauma,

John Lehtola (continued): ≈even though many things were incomprehensible. One should not forget that many were able to care for matters that needed care, and this had a positive effect on their life of faith.”

Will Randall: I thought that would give a little insight into some of our experiences in Gillette in regards to disinviting. So, in recent times, we had a discussion at one of our annual meetings about whether or not we should invite Darwin and/or Phil to Gillette to speak. In that discussion, there was not anyone who showed any hesitation or uneasiness about inviting Darwin. We had some conversation, if somebody would have some hesitation, this would be a great time to talk about it. When Darwin and/or Phil are in Gillette, let's ask them how they believe. Let’s talk about what the issues are. Let us talk to the brothers and come to an understanding on the stuff. So, we ended the annual meeting with this idea, yes, invite Darwin. So, we did. And then there was some obviously -- there's connections with all of our families in Gillette to the Midwest. So, there were some conversations that took place with various families in their connections back to Minnesota. And it was brought up that there was some hesitation. Maybe we should not allow them to come speak in Gillette. So, our chairman called Eric Jurmu and asked what was his thought on it? What was the LLC’s stance on inviting or disinviting Darwin to Gillette? Eric Jurmu stated that the LLC did not have a position on that. The congregation chairman posted that on the congregation’s GroupMe. Eric Jurmu did not have a position on that. Well, the long story short. Through the phone calls and the obvious division that took place in Gillette, the claws came out, to say it mildly. One of our brothers on the board called a speaker in Cokato and asked him what his thoughts were. His stated that he would be VERY AFRAID of having one of these brothers speak in our congregation. So, that, of course, caused a great deal of hesitation in this board member’s mind. And then another brother in our congregation -- I think it was actually his wife -- called Eric. They posted this on our GroupMe, as well. It said that -- my wife called Eric and he has a message to call him back for not relaying his guidance on this matter in full. He said the LLC part, but he also recommended to not invite because of his spiritual matters. But that it is each congregation’s decision to make together. There was an instant division in our congregation. It was very evident. It was instantaneous. We had a board meeting prior to Darwin showing up. In that board meeting, it was expressed the real fear of what this was about. The real fear was -- we might do something contrary to what the LLC or the Church has expressed that we should do. If we were to invite them, we would be wrong. The only reason I told the story is because I don't think that the brothers in the LLC realize, maybe you do or don’t. I don’t know. But I hope that you do not realize this. There are people that look to the LLC as the Church. It was expressed in this way at our board meeting, when I stated my obvious stance that we should invite him and we should talk about the matters. We should discuss openly with Darwin how he believes. And come to our own conclusion. But the one brother’s stance was -- you mean to tell me that what the LLC and the Church is doing, which I have believed in my entire life, is wrong? It wasn’t that he wanted to get the bottom of matter. He didn’t want to discuss it. He didn't want to read doctrine. He didn't want to read Scripture. He was worried that he might do something in differing opinion to what the LLC thought. There are people that hold the LLC in the highest regard, next to God himself. They have the ultimate authority on what they do believe. I don't know how to overcome that obstacle. But it instantly began an onslaught of slander, gossiping, fear-mongering and a division that is still in Gillette as we speak. There is no unity there at all. It has been heartbreaking, to say the least. But there is zero reconciliation around the Word. It's also evident when we talked about withholding. we spoke in Gillette when this conversation about withholding began in 2011, 2012, 2013. We had numerous discussions in the congregation. We had numerous discussions on the board. We had numerous discussions when we had visiting speakers. We always came to the same conclusion. Withholding was contrary to Scripture. Withholding was not something that we should teach or we would want to teach or that we would attempt to justify or make excuses for. It is very obvious what Christ’s instruction is. In that mindset and in that time we had somebody who made a trip back to Minnesota. He did some visiting with some speakers. He came to the conclusion, well, actually there are times that we would withhold. There are times that it would be acceptable, permissible and even necessary to withhold. Some people that had a very clear understanding on whether or not we withhold and what instruction is for believers to do, instantly became muddied. Because, in their mind, whether it came from the LLC, or a person in the LLC, in their mind it came from the LLC, it came from the Church, because these are trusted brothers that have been put in the position of trust. And, of course, we believe that the Holy Ghost did guide the congregation(s) in putting people into these positions. Therefore, we have to believe that they are right. They are the trusted brothers. They are the ones who have the understanding. We don't. We have to wait for them to express it to us what Scripture means. If they say that Saul and Samuel is an example of withholding, then Saul and Samuel is an example of withholding. And what Christ said, it pertains most of the time but not all of the time. The Parable of the Ten Virgins is one more example. When somebody mentioned Phoenix and the three brothers that came back with this new understanding, it struck a chord in my mind. I remember a speaker that came out to our congregation and discussed. We had our congregation discussion with him on forgiveness. He didn't have any real input, but we had a lot of discussion. Shortly after he left our congregation, he had a sermon at home. He said that he used to understand the Parable of the Ten Virgins as a sign of the end times, but he has come to realize that he has understood it incorrectly. This is an example of withholding. It is it is still preached today. There's been another recent sermon that preached an example of withholding and permission for it. It is such an important issue that God himself could make inanimate objects preach the gospel if it was truly meant to be. If you don’t preach it, just assume that God closed your mouth. An inanimate object standing next to you, standing next to the person who asked, would receive the Gospel. But there are people that truly look to the LLC as being next to God himself, the ultimate Authority. It is extremely troubling. It has separated the congregation in Gillette.

Pat Lake: A couple of minutes ago, I spoke with Jim Frantti. They wish to leave from here around 5 o’clock. We are going to close now. If there is, as I'm sure there is, many other speeches. People would like to, [speak] but it is getting late. I would encourage each of you to reach out to one another and visit some more. As Jim and I also talked, I don't think at this time we are going to plan or schedule any further meetings of this nature. Maybe it would happen rather in groups of one or two going forward. I would like to read a portion from 2nd Timothy the third chapter. These are my thoughts here today in closing. “But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” The interesting thing about Scriptures is that we can all go and find a portion or one passage that fits something that we would like to believe. But if we search the Scriptures in its entirety, the answer to Scripture is always found in Scripture. We do not need to look outside of Scripture for the answer. Why? This is God's Word. In closing, I would like to, yet, say to each of you, even now, you can believe all of your sins forgiven in Jesus’ name and blood. I believe Darwin is closing with the closing prayer. After that they had asked me if I would make an announcement that we will take advantage of all of you wonderful people here. We will take a collection for the benefit of our building fund.

Darwin Lake: First of all, I did not take a speaking turn. For the most part, many are aware of how I believe. I would respond to Sam. I don't know if you felt that I desire a speaking position or you insinuated that. But in no way do I desire the position. In fact I tried to pawn it off to Phil quite a few times. Nevertheless, when it comes to serving, when things are difficult should we just asked to be taken down. I have read Scripture. Jonah did not want to go to preach in Nineveh. It did not go well for him. So, when congregation has asked me to speak, I speak. And when they ask me to sit, I will happily sit. So, that is about that position. Secondly, in regards to sermons, we each serve with the gifts that we have. I always try -- but we are vessels of clay -- just stick to the text. What is the message of Scripture? That is the first attempt when I speak -- stay with the text. I am a messenger of God. And I bring God's message in ways with whatever gifts that I have. Second, speak about Jesus Christ. He is the joy and hope of my salvation, and he is the joy and hope of mankind. Third, I have been reminded to preach the familiar audible gospel message that we know. I don't always remember these things. We are vessels of clay. That is how it is. Those are my intents to serve with what I have. Last of all, for myself my faith is based on Jesus Christ. I own Jesus Christ personally, and He is my hope and my joy and my salvation. I don't place any confidence in my own ability or what I will do for believing, but I place it up on him, my Lord has accomplished on my behalf what I need before God. So, I say, it is the Lord's work. I place all my trust in the Lord. I cannot turn to myself for understanding wise words and wisdom. And I do not encourage anyone to turn to me. Turn to the Lord. Let us study the word together. So, that would be my confession of how I believe. Let us all join together in asking for the blessing of the Lord in the familiar Lord's benediction. The Lord bless us and keep us, the Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us, the Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, Holy Ghost. Amen.