Minneapolis Congregation Meeting on the Church Sale, September 20, 2020

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to all of you that are sitting in the benches up on the balcony, out in the back, but also on Zoom. Hopefully the Zoom option works well and it's in Josh's capable hands along with Bob up in the recording room up there. So let's hope that those people all can participate well as well. Let's

Begin this afternoon meeting by all saying the Lord's prayer all together. Our Father, Lord in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Amen. Today we have three items on our agenda. We have a, which I'm sure all of you know, we have a letter of intent from a developer to purchase our property that we wanted to share with the congregation today. And then if we have time, well, we'll try to make time that, um,

There's a short discussion on Bible class leaders, teachers, and then a financial update from Josh at the end. It could be that the financial update is integral to our discussion, and if that's the case, maybe we'll ask Josh to present that information earlier if we need to. But let's see how it goes. So the letter of intent.

as you all remember last year, the transition committee had an appraisal done as part of their work and the appraisal that they received from the, from the company that they worked with, um, was shared with the congregation. And that number was, you know, 750,000 to 1.1, $1.2 million roughly in that.

the transition committee was asked to come up with those numbers because at that point we had done a congregation survey and there were a number of people in that survey that had recommended we look into selling the church. Well, you remember the discussions that part went nowhere. Our congregation numbers changed rather dramatically that one summer. And so we,

left that discussion for a later date. Then in February of this year, 2020, we received an offer from United Properties through a man called Michael Hawley, who has a land acquisition business that he does work for, property developers among them, United Properties,

And because we were preparing for the annual meeting, that letter that we received was filed for a later date. And then as you all remember, the annual meeting was very long and difficult. And also, we only had one Wednesday evening Bible class after the annual meeting. And then attending services was canceled due to COVID and shelter in place. So that letter got left in...

my mailbox upstairs. And then when we got back together as a board in June, we discussed it shortly. And then in August, we, um, discussed it more fully. We did have an opportunity to meet with Michael Holly once here at the property. Um, he wanted to look at the, at the church specifically. He hadn't seen the inside of it. And then, um,

He came and met with us as a board at our August meeting. So the original letter that they sent, they offered to buy four acres of our property. And since they offered that and they discussed it more amongst themselves, they took that offer off of the table.

And when Michael Holly then met with our board, he made it clear that their offer is only for the whole property, not for just part of it. So they're no longer interested in buying just a part of the property. So the offer. They have sent a letter of intent

which strictly says that if everything goes right for them with the city and the neighborhood, they would buy our property. The base price that they've offered is 2.8 million and it could be as much as 3.2 million depending on

what the city would allow them to do with this property. So I could, I'm not sure that it pays to read the actual letter of intent, but I think the real number that we can bank on is 2.8 million.

the $3 million number has been told me by Michael Hawley in a private conversation that is actually very likely. So somewhere from 2.8 to 3 million would be the number I think that is probably, if we decided to sell, would probably be what would happen. So things to consider.

If we sell, we could dissolve the Minneapolis congregation. And if we dissolve the Minneapolis congregation, according to the bylaws, all the money, the funds would go to the LLC. I believe that the money could go to the LLC with recommendations attached to it.

And I don't think we have to dwell on that too much here, except to say that if we dissolve the congregation, then the money goes to the LLC. We could sell and keep the congregation intact, and then we would have a

pot of money, whatever it was, and the congregation could search for new property, new church, a new space, whatever it might be. Of course, we could as a congregation decide that we're happy here and we don't want to sell, so that would be another option.

So it isn't possible in any scenario to sell and divide the proceeds to any member or members of the congregation. So the reason I bring that up is because we're a nonprofit group. A church is a nonprofit. And there's very many regulations in state law and other law that limits what a

what a nonprofit organization can do. So we could also, as a congregation, a nonprofit congregation, if we sold our property and had this money, we could then donate that money to other nonprofit organizations. But there's no way that that money can

end up in any member's hands. The only reason I bring that up is because there have been a couple of comments and I don't know if that's what the comments actually meant, but I thought it would be important to clear that point up. So without further ado, I think Pat has a mic and I have a piece of paper and so

Dennis. By the way, and Patrick wants me to make sure I let you guys know this, that he doesn't like long meetings and neither do most of us. And so if we could keep our comments to the point, let's not ramble all over the place. Let's not start saying the same thing we said over and over again. Try to keep this to a nice pace.

Thanks, Mike. I, maybe about a week ago, I thought that it'd be interesting to know what percentage, what the number is of the members live south and east of our nice, large, beautiful Minneapolis church.

And the number that I came up with was 82. And I think the membership might be at 190. So that would be a little more than 40%. And then I was kind of curious as to how many of the other members live outside of 10 miles from this location.

you know, perhaps majority live within 10 miles, maybe 15 at best. But anyhow, this is a very nice location. And I don't think that a church should, primary focus should be spreading the gospel. And we have a nice church, a nice location. As far as the offers,

you know, the dollar amount and to lust over the money. I think that everyone has that. We have inherited sin and the love of money is close to any one of us, including myself, but we want to be cautious about pursuing the love of money. This has been my home congregation my whole life and

I think it's been a nice place and I would hope that we wouldn't sell the church because of some dollar amount. Bob Kearney. Okay, before we go to Bob, because we have the Zoom meeting going, we need the

Wi-Fi bandwidth, so if you guys have your phones connected to the Wi-Fi, please shut it off. We already dropped them once, so we can give that some room. Go ahead, Bob. We heard you. Yeah, I've been a member here since day one, and first of all, it's a fully paid-off church, and it is an ideal location. I would say that

the fact that we're growing as rapidly as we are is further testimony to the fact that the transition report less than a year ago i believe said the suggestion in that was that we're financially stable right now that combined with if you live in plymouth like i do the land is always jumping in value this land is going to get because three million now is going to jump even further

every year. It's a great investment for us. We do not want to view ourselves as a business. We are a religious organization, and our object should be to further the work of the gospel. I consider this idea of further profits, or how much can we make, it's not $800,000, it's $3 million, to all be wasted effort. And I would wish to

urge everyone if we're going to talk like that let's talk about what the next lot is going to be in the annual meeting and not do anything with this proposal i really think that everyone i've talked to is in favor of staying in this church and i consider it kind of unusual to even raise this issue now okay kenny reisner

Where's Kenny? He's right here in the middle. Yeah, first of all, I'm not sure if you got my email or not, but I sent one to the general email requesting that this meeting be postponed because of the funeral in Brainerd [unintelligible], which I would like to have been in attendance. And then there's...

Kenny, would you speak up? I can't hardly hear you here. Okay, Chairman Mike, I was hoping you would receive my email, which I sent to the general email, MLLC, asking that this meeting be postponed because of the funeral today in Brainerd. A funeral is a one-time event. It can't be moved around this week or next week or whatever it is when it is. And

And then there is the Hill Funeral also today, both of which I would have liked to have been in attendance. This particular topic of discussion could be done at any time. Today is not crucial for this event, so I'm disappointed that you guys did not postpone this meeting today. Can I address that now, Kenny, or do you want to go on? Do you have further comments?

There was a couple of things we did. I did, um, the board did see her, did see her email. Um, we also had two other requests to postpone. Of course, as you all know, we don't have any control over who lives and who dies. Scott does. And no matter what day we pick for a meeting, somebody could die. On the other hand, um, also not sure.

how many people could fit in the Brainerd church anyway. With the COVID thing, we thought that probably, of course, everybody makes their own decisions, but probably most people wouldn't be going there anyway. So it seemed the right thing to do to continue having our meeting as we had originally planned. Actually, Mike, I think you would have preferred to be in attendance there also. I'm pretty sure you were...

Robert Lee's funeral. Yeah, you can see I'm standing here, Kenny. I would have preferred to be with Mark, but I can't be. Anyway, moving on. I first joined Minneapolis in 1976, and so I have a lot of attachments here, although I was with Rockford for many years. Membership today is up by approximately 50% from last year.

and it's growing, and I suspect people keep trickling in as they feel the squeeze, and the other nearby congregations of which are, as I understand, they're kind of bulging at the seams, filled with capacity, perhaps. And so, in this situation, by bringing the proposal before the congregation, we're putting the typical example, putting the cart in front of the horse, considering sale before we have a place to relocate to.

we moved here from ford to newton we had a place to go i don't think we missed a sunday we just moved in here with the other place for sale and all was good so it's uh so then then the question is what is the motive what's the priority i don't know so to summarize that point

question to sell here, where we have a congregation of nice size, would only be to relocate. That's enough for now. Being that Mike is here, I'd like to take a turn. I'm probably butting in, I'm sure. You are butting in. Is that fine when it's right here? I'll make it short.

I was actually quite upset because I feel it's actually pretty disrespectful when there's a funeral of an elder that I know, well, we were at Bob's funeral, I figured, and there's actually two funerals today. I guess that there might be somebody else that dies when they have another, plan another meeting, but when they're, I don't know. To me, it just is disrespectful. Okay, the next on the list is Zach Kujula.

I just want to bring this up because a couple of weeks ago we had the LLC update where they mentioned secret... The mic's on. Just put it right here. Is this better? Okay, so I just bring this up because a couple of weeks ago we had the LLC update where they mentioned secret recordings again. I just want to be clear. I'm recording. It's kind of secret. And...

The next thought I had was, to me it doesn't make too much sense to sell the church if we don't have another place to go. At least for me personally, this is by far the closest location. It would be a bummer to sell this one and not have anywhere else lined up to go and then have to drive all the way up to the boonies every week to go to church. I really like this location and it seems that if it's paid off, we have enough members, we're not financially struggling, there's really no reason to sell it at this point. If we needed more money and

later we could sell it later i don't think this is a one-time chance to sell it or anything paul parks i was just had a couple comments here the first one was that in recent weeks when we've been at services often the attendance is pretty low but

I think that COVID has completely changed that and we can't make any kind of a realistic judgment as to how attendance is at any church until COVID kind of resolves itself in the future. Also, I was a part of that transition committee and Josh was given the job of kind of going through the numbers and seeing

how viable this place is, and I think his conclusion was that we needed at least 110 members in order to function as we are functioning, and we're well above that at this point. And so I think that this is an ideal location for the folks that are generally coming here, and I echo what

Someone else just said that the other churches seem to be full. If we were to sell and want to meet someplace else, a new location, I'm sure it would cost way more than $3 million. I think in our neighborhood there's houses now that are selling for excess of $1 million just for a house on a 100-foot lot. So that $3 million wouldn't do anything to get us into another building.

And schools are not available for using as worship places. So it seems obvious that stay put at this point is the way we should go. So I want you guys to bear with me a bit here if I miss somebody.

I apologize, but keep raising your hands because I'm trying to listen in right at the same time and walking and chewing bubble gum is sometimes hard. So next on the list is Becky Stewart. Over here. Also, if you could raise your hand when you're next on the list so I can find you. It might not hurt to, if I don't say your name, to say your name because the people on Zoom won't see you.

This is Becky Stewart. So I hear what Paul said and I wonder if we've all been able to pay dues and what it looks like going forward if all the membership will be able to continue to pay dues through the end of the year and going into next year. And the reason why I raised my hand initially was to ask to make a request that maybe we could hear that financial report sooner

And that would help us kind of put this together in our minds and have some more thoughts. Okay, Josh will give me the thumbs up when he's ready and we'll do that. Andrea? Matilla?

Trisha Matilla. Close. Close enough. I've been a member here since I was a child. Hold your mic close, okay? Trisha Matilla. Trisha, I'm sorry, Trisha. I thought I was pretty smart. I got it right. I've been a member here since I was a child and have many great memories of coming to church here. Obviously, as everyone's mentioned, it's a growing congregation with 190 members. I feel that it would be rather...

unfortunate and quite frankly a little unusual to just dissolve the congregation at this time. Maybe our efforts need to be focused on recruiting more members. It's a convenient location for I know my husband and I and many of us and it's a beautiful location. So for myself I'm happy here and I would like to see it today. Julie Redman.

I'm Julie Redmond. I just wanted to say, and I know this is going to be brought up from Josh soon, but I keep hearing that our membership is up, and I know that. I just know, looking at some announcements of the financial report, even though our membership is up, our dues are down significantly from last year. So, just looking at, it'll be interesting to see the financial report, and if we can

Even though our membership is up, can we sustain it financially? Patrick? I would say that not to completely disregard the financial situation this year, but it is certainly an extremely unusual circumstance that I don't think any of us anticipate will

continue for the next few years. I think last year's financials would probably be a more accurate indicator where the congregation is as opposed to this year's with the COVID interruption. I'd be willing to bet that many of the congregations in North America are similarly behind with their dues and whatnot. The other thing is that for me personally,

I feel to echo some sentiments that the size of the offer shouldn't be relevant to the discussion unless we're planning on moving to a new location, and I would very much prefer to continue coming to church here. Okay, right now I have two more names on the list, and then I'm going to put Josh on there. So, Anita Lee, carry me.

I know I'm very excited. I've always been happy to be back into my home congregation. And it feels like coming home. And I would hope that the kingdom of God can continue to progress in the Minneapolis congregation. Roberto?

I also wanted to say that I've always found a lot of comfort coming here and seeing the same familiar faces over the years and we are happy here and I also think it would be impractical to dissolve the congregation just because where would we go? I know that the word can be heard elsewhere as well but just the practical and

you know, where would we fit in when the other churches are full as well? That's just my two cents. So, okay, you can hear through a mask if anybody's wondering.

just put it on the chin there. So 110 member projection to break even, there's something along that lines that somebody was saying, one of the board members said, I won't say his name because I didn't hear it from him directly, but I'm just wondering if that's at what participation rate, you know, if it's 60%,

Does the number need to go higher from that, or is that based on 60% already? So it might be something to clarify when you speak up there. And then, I mean, it's also curious where this goes in general, because I know where these people that have switched to Minneapolis talk about

letting people just have their sin. You know, somebody comes to church with purple hair, you don't say anything because that's their sin. So, I mean, you know, there's also that word down the road where things are going to go. I mean, when I talk to some of the first apostolics, that's what they believe in that regard. So maybe I'm going off rails here a little bit. So you have a 110 at what participation rate?

Josh can maybe clarify. Okay, Evan, we'll have Josh do the financial report now and we're going to try not to go off the rails with the discussion. So it sounds like I might disappoint a few people because I don't have magic answers here, but

I was just going to go over the kind of the data I put into the, um, into the newsletter a few weeks ago, and then maybe talk a little bit about our cash balance after that. So, um, our dues income from this is kind of August. So January to August this year versus last year is down 11 and a half thousand dollars. Collections are down $5,500 and bake sale is down $13,000 missing the spring bake sale.

bake sale profit would be $3,500 from the spring bake sale. So not all that lost income is lost earnings for the church. On the bake sale note, last year we made about $12,000 from all three of our bake sales. So depending upon what happens this fall with the bake sales, that's not something we, we may not make that up in the fall of this year. Each kind of less,

four months of the year, three months of the year, we do usually make up some of our losses. I'm sure everybody's aware we had the parking lot resealed. That's $16,000. So that's included in our number this year, which is a one-time deal, so it shouldn't really be considered for long-term projections. Expenses are down about $8,000 last year.

lower bake sale expenses, lower utility usage and meals and other activity at the church, minister pay, and so on and so forth. So that leaves us down $55,500 this year, or $39,500 if you take the parking lot repair out of it. And then last year at this time, so last August we were down $25,000.

And if you look at last year's earnings, you take out the, we received a large donation from someone in their inheritance, as well as some investment gains. If you take that out, we broke even last year. And thinking, so we made $25,000 up in the last four months of last year. If you take the bake sale,

I don't know what the big sale will come up, but it's going to be reduced earnings. And you can take that out of it. We're probably going to end the year $20,000 down. That would be kind of what I would ballpark, take an estimate at. Meaning, I think we'll make maybe $20,000 up if people start paying their dues and catching up on their dues in the last few months, which is what we normally see. Cash balance. So we are

We have $186,000 of cash in our bank as of August, which is up $14,000 from a year ago, August 20 of last year. And again, the reason why we're up is because the donation from the state of June. We're down $55,000 of cash from last year. So that gives you a little idea of where we're at.

I don't, I don't have the data that we were just talking about in terms of participation rate, but it will, but we, but it has, it has decreased a little bit since then. Um, I can't say exactly how much, um, I think we'd probably be at about another break even year without COVID is probably is probably the rough estimate, but I didn't, I can't say that with a lot of confidence. So.

I mean, the reserve is still there. You know, I think that gives us a degree of certainty. I don't think we're in a position where we would be adding cash each year either, or significantly. But it doesn't mean we're immediately threatened, I think. It is hard to say with COVID. I mean, it's...

there's a lot of variables this year, and you can't really say anything with certainty, I would say. At this point? Oh, right, right. So, yeah, Mike was just asking about the last few years, have we ever been better

have we ever been better than break even? And I think that's, I think it's right. We've been pretty close. I know the last two years we were with investment gain pretty much flat or within a few thousand dollars of flat. I think the year before that we probably, I don't remember for sure, lost money because of the, that was the big transition year. So, yes, that's a good point. Patrick? Patrick?

So to recap, would it be fair to say we don't have any significant financial reasons to discontinue the congregation at this time with taking consideration that the COVID has created unusual circumstances right now? I don't

There's no short term urgency. There's not a short term need for that. From that reason, I think financially, we're not we don't have a gun to our head or anything like that financially from a from a operational perspective. Within the last two weeks, we had a

LLC representative share the happenings and financials at the LLC. And the projector didn't give a clear number, but I think the membership within the LLC is maybe at $7,500 and the budget was like $2.4 million.

I think if you do the math, it's less than $400 per member. I know that the, our Minneapolis church contributes a significant amount of money to the LLC, but it was kind of helpful for me to see those numbers. And, um, so if everyone paid, you know, the LLC that dollar amount, which might be

less than 400 per year per member. There should be plenty of money, you know, based off of the annual suggested dues. Everybody paid maybe even 50% or 65% of what the suggested amount is. So I would hope that everyone would be thankful that we have a nice church and, you know, contribute to the church.

and enjoy what we have. Okay, so more hands are going out. Are these for Josh or are we going back to Mike? Mine's just a quick one. I know we've talked about this number before, but what is the monthly expenses for operating the church?

currently. I guess if you take out the LLC dues payments, which is really, I would say, the only non-operational element of it, you're talking about $8,000, $9,000 a month.

Yeah, Lee Matilla here. We switched just about a year ago from Rockford. Sounds to me like this church is financially doing just fine. Even with all the members at Rockford, there was at least three times a year the treasurer would get in front of the congregation and say that they're in the red or they're running out of money so everybody catch up on their dues. So we could do a dues drive, some reminders at this church to plant that seed in people's head.

to catch up on their dues, just like they do in Rockford. Here's your reminder. Yeah, I would echo what everybody's been saying here. Financially, I think we're in really good shape. This church has a lot of sentimental value, I guess, at least for me.

This is where I grew up. My brother, his funeral was held here. It just, the environment here is really nice. I kind of have a tough time with large amounts of people. It feels like you almost get lost in the crowd. I've got

gotten to know a lot of people and make good friendships here. So definitely based on our financials and all the other positive aspects of this location, I don't think there's any reason to sell. Looks like we're good.

Yeah, this is James. Josh, I have a question for you real quickly. Yep, sorry. I know that we were spoke, they asked what it would cost to run the church monthly, excluding the LLC. Yep. Did you say $8,000 to $9,000? Or did you get that mixed up with the LLC? $8,000 to $9,000 a month. Probably, maybe, yeah, roughly would be our, I mean, our total expenses last year were,

just over $200,000. So roughly half of that is LLC dues payments. So you're saying that's $8,000 to $9,000 to keep the lights on? $8,000 to $9,000. And we're talking minister pay, utilities, bookstore expense, taxes and insurance, and a few other things. But there's big sell expense in that number and stuff. I just quickly did the math here.

Yeah, I guess I wasn't aware of that. I just wanted to clarify that. Yeah, I could do a little more careful calculation of that, but... Sorry, Dennis.

I think it could be that like the bake sale expenses shouldn't be factored in with church expenses. So it's probably not real easy to just spontaneously spin on a number because with the business transaction for gain,

to use that expenditure for operating expense wouldn't be accurate accounting. I just wanted to ask about that membership number now.

190 was mentioned here a couple of times. So wondering if you could verify that. Yeah. Our most recent updates right around 185, which I think is up 10 from the annual meeting membership roster. Dave Tolkienen. I've heard comments about why we should not sell the church. Is there anyone who has a reason to sell the church?

Back to Mike.

Okay, we're going to... We're going to... I got this. I may need your professional help, Pat. I think I got it. Okay. I'm going to start a new list because...

Josh said he saw some hands, but he didn't call on them, maybe. And also, I'm not sure exactly where I had my back to you guys, but thanks, Josh, for the financial update. I wanted to make one comment regarding the financial update. I don't think that, I'm not sure what the

benefit of discussing what our just our church expenses are we are members of the LLC our congregation is a member of the Lestati Lutheran Church and so those dues are something I think at least I personally feel strongly that we should pay those monthly as well but there is a number of what it actually costs to

turn the lights on at the church. And Josh, at some point, probably would get that, but I don't know if it's pertinent. Russ? So Dave asks, why sell?

And I say this as, of course, my personal feeling about what I see happening. The annual meeting showed quite clearly that this is still, this year, as it has been for years, a divided congregation.

And as one brother said in our last board meeting, quoting from words of scriptures, that house divided against itself cannot stand. So we have through many meetings over the years, discussions, conversations, and attempts to deal and address these issues

it hasn't solved the problem. The illness that is troubling this congregation is very serious and that is why when God offers us this wonderful

of our members to other congregations, it's very well worth taking heed of. So the basic blessing we get is to be in other congregations where other gifts or helps can help solve, help cure that which is the great

illness disturbing the membership of our congregation. One other aspect which didn't come out in Mike's comment about the letter of intent is that the reason it's so high as compared to what we looked at previously is because this property is zoned low density residential.

So if you're going to sell it just for housing, that's why you don't get much for it. These guys would make it into a high-density retirement community, and that's where the value then bumps to the $400,000. And their thinking is, the reason they would get that to go through is they would use this facility, this church, to create, he said, they're going to have to invest in it, maybe a million dollars.

to make it a low-income housing facility. In other words, that is sort of like the leverage they would work with on the city to get the plan to go through. Will it work? We don't know, and they don't know. If it doesn't go through, there's no sale. But that is looking at it from the way I read what he was talking about.

So it is, that's the way I view it, is a gift from God for us, for his congregation, for the Zion of North America, for the work of the kingdom, that we can be given this gift and God can help us all through the other congregations of his kingdom. Do you have your hand up in the back there? Yeah.

Back by the door. Mike didn't give me a name. You're going in the right. No, not to 11. Who are we? We'll get to everyone. I can't believe I forgot. Your name is like escaping my head. But right by the door. You don't want to talk?

Say your name. Do you want to talk? Give her the mic. Sorry. Sorry for the miscommunication. I would say as a young person that's grown up here and this has really been my only experience, I would be sad to see us take this move to decide to disband and disperse into multiple different congregations. Also, I live in St. Louis Park. I'm not trying to be going off to Rockford.

I'm not trying to be going out to Oak River, Cokato, Monticello. When we've got something right there that works very well, we've got a lot of people that live in this area. To be honest with you, I think it seems, I mean, I won't be so bold to say that there shouldn't be any conversation about that. Obviously, we all have our own opinions about this, and I think it's valid that we do. But I do think that

If there were the decision to make a move to sell this place, it only would make sense that there's a transition plan of what's next before there's anything that's inked on paper. And also, to your point, Russ, I can respect what you're saying, but I think we'd be sadly mistaken if we don't acknowledge that there's issues all over.

Zion right now in the US and I don't like to say that but it's the reality we've heard that it's not something that's only specific to Minneapolis and I think it's fair that we consider that because because to say that the the issues are only here this is simply not true so while you may have a point of of introducing other gifts

help resolve these issues i've heard many times in my life that our time is not god's time and i think if we're going to have this conversation we take a good hard look at it and and see what makes sense i mean three million yeah i mean that's it's a decent amount but it's 2020 who's to say what that's going to be 2025 we have no clue

And so I just wish rather than having this conversation of let's just upsell, send the money to the different congregations, LLC, wherever we go. I'm not opposed to supporting other congregations or the LLC. But please, let's have a look at what we have right now. And to completely throw that away seems extremely, it doesn't seem to make sense.

So that's kind of my thought there. And, I mean, like I say, I'm not trying to shut down conversation because if there are alternative options that are brought to us that would be viable options, yes, we could go there. But I think before we have this conversation of disbanding, you know, I just feel like it's a bit extreme, to be honest with you. Okay, Patrick, the next person on the list is Dula. She's right there. But I want to talk about something quick first. Dula, if you'll permit me.

I want to make sure that something is very clear here. Nobody's trying to, I get the vibe a little bit that somebody's trying to pull something here and that's not the case. Seriously, we got an unsolicited offer from a developer.

we felt, the board felt it was our duty to bring it to you. So many of us have opinions and ideas and things like that about what's good, but this is simply an offer that was brought to you, the congregation, to look at. So don't be careful about thinking that somebody's trying to

push an agenda here, because I don't think that's the case. At least in our discussions on the board, it hasn't been that way. We wanted to faithfully bring this offer to the congregation. Dula? Okay, that was a good clarification, because I totally agree with what Emily said, and I really wonder Horace's opinion about

our unrest in this congregation because it feels really weird that your advice is to scatter us to all other Minnesota congregations before we even get clear what's the problem in here, Minneapolis. We have had a meeting, I've been a member only for a year, but there's been several meetings

where we've been asking that what's the problem is, that can we go to Bible and see if we even believe different ways. But there hasn't been any clear answer for that, that where our faith really differs. And before we get answer for those differences, I think that we shouldn't even be discussing about

selling the church or dissolve the convocation. And I don't know if this is a meeting where you can make motions, but if it is, I make a motion that we don't make any decisions about selling church or its property before we've got some results of our spiritual unrest, as you said.

I was disappointed to hear our guests from Florida speak about unrest or division. I can't help but keep recalling

The sermon he kept before he left for Florida last year, a year ago, talking about God cleansing the kingdom. The other thing I'd like to remind you, Russell, is there are no dividers in the habit. Zero. None. So, I think I have

Risto's name on the list next, but Gary, somewhere in there, your hand was up, and I hope I didn't get you out of turn, but I have you two people down yet. Is that okay? Okay, Risto. Yeah, I would say that if someone wants to move out, go ahead and move out. If someone wants to move in, that's fine.

I don't know why we... I don't know where the connection would be between or with selling this church and that healing our spiritual problems. It doesn't work that way. The only way that we get beyond this is like we...

We as a congregation, two years ago, wanted to have these discussions regarding spiritual issues and have doctrinal discussions. We had two or three of them and it got shut down. So I think the way that we get beyond the spiritual stuff is to discuss and talk and talk. That's the only way it happens. We can't strong arm

and just all of a sudden sell the church and expect that, okay, now that's going to heal our problems. It just causes more division. And there's plenty of people here that really enjoy coming here, including myself, like I said earlier. I just don't think that there is any reason, especially in a time of spiritual storms,

to make a move like this. It's a terrible idea and it is extremely divisive. Did you say Kenny? So I have a property in Minnetonka and I visited with some others that have other homes in Plymouth and such and

This particular property is near Ridgedale and I get maybe 40 to 50 solicitations from phone calls and text messages and mailings inquiring to buy that property. But I really have no interest in buying it because I need the property for business purposes.

You know, like, if I didn't think about it from a logic and reason standpoint, I looked at the dollar amount, I could very easily be tempted by the dollar amount. But it's not, you know, in reality, in 10 years, maybe it'll be, you know, significantly less than what it's worth today. But I need it today, and so I don't think we should make decisions based off of the dollar amount. Likewise, I've had to personally,

I feel fortunate that I can at this time sensibly look at it from a business logic and common sense standpoint and not get distracted by the dollar amount. So there are a lot of people soliciting for properties and typically what they do is they do what has been proposed here is they throw out a high number and then based off of

variety of different things with the city, then they would come down on the price or whatever. It's a long negotiation process. So I just wanted to mention that. And I think Russ should, I'd like to even say that you can believe your own sins were given, Russ, for stating such a kind of a horrible statement. And you really believe in the shed blood of Jesus Christ that you can

take care of your own matters and put your house in order, Russ, and believe your sins forgiven, that actually dividing and not having love, if you have love for your brother, you would visit with your brother. And I know some here in this congregation have felt that if you don't know, then you don't know anything.

There's no help for you. And I think those that have that kind of attitude that I know you don't know, therefore you will be delivered to Lucifer. I'm right. You're wrong. And I won't explain what it is. And I don't need to go to the Bible and share what the scriptures say. That's a very ungodly behavior.

So I pray that everyone that thinks that they're right would look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are a great sinner themselves. And there are some that struggle with, you know, this righteousness of faith and righteousness of life and are we saved by faith or saved by works and

You know, that's always going to be the big challenge, but we want to make sure that we look to Christ. We believe in God through Jesus Christ first. Okay, look, let's talk about the church for now. I know that Russ made a comment, and I think he was talking about

why he thinks we should sell the church. But we can have a continued discussion on these faith matters, and obviously we need to. I mean, anybody that was at the annual meeting knows that we're divided. And so let's try to focus on the church stuff for now, the sales stuff. See if we can get through that and continue from there. Gary, what do you want?

Actually, I think what I was gonna say pretty much got covered, but I guess I just will add that, yeah, I support staying in this building. If John liked the law. I wanna give a little history lesson

There was a man named Kosonen who lived in, which is now present day Russia, it was then Finland, and he had issues, and then World War II came, they had to evacuate from that area into Finland, because that was taken over by Russia, and the people in that area spread throughout the country of Finland after the war.

as a result of the war. As a result of those people who were having squabbles, who were divided and spread throughout Finland, the name Kosonen, I'm sure you're familiar with the name, Kososhian spirit, which came from his name, which the Kososhian spirit in itself has been, after the fact, considered bogus. But anyways,

The effects of those people being scattered throughout Finland caused terrible, terrible problems throughout the Zion of Finland during the 1970s. So scattering the people from that congregation throughout the country didn't solve the issue. It made the problem spread to every corner of the country. Dave Tolkien.

I guess timing is everything, but based on the attendance on most Sundays here in this church, we probably could all fit in Denny's property in Minnetonka. But this meeting was strictly just to bring forth the proposal of someone wanting to buy the church and just to get feedback from the congregation. There's nothing

I don't know why it's always slipping right into the spiritual debate. It's just, do we want to sell or no? And if the majority of the congregation does not want to sell, then I guess we don't sell. It's just that simple. Patrick? I guess Dave did echo somewhat what I wanted to say, but I also wanted to mention that we all desire the same thing with our spiritual divide.

And when Russ stands up and expresses desire for us to be healed and presents that maybe that's a way, we should all offer him the love and respect that he means what he says and treat each other with love and respect in our commons that there may be people that want to sell. And there isn't anything wrong with

That being their desire, they're just as much a member of the congregation as anyone else. So please remember in your comments, let's treat one another with love and respect and recognize that at the end of the day, the congregation will decide what they want to do. Thank you, Pat. Zach?

I think Dave had covered some of what I was going to say, that we should try to keep this focused on selling the church and not get into spiritual discussions, because that wasn't the purpose of the meeting. And I'm just kind of wondering, so far I've heard most people who talk aren't in favor of selling the church, and maybe just one or two comments have been in favor of it. So how do we know when do we end this discussion about selling the church? Do we have to keep going for hours so people run out of energy? Because we also have the Bible class thing, and

i guess we got the financial report done so how do we know when we're done discussing this because at this point it seems like it very easily could turn into another these six hour meetings and i don't think anyone really wants that so if someone could maybe propose some sort of mechanism for wrapping up or i don't know just my thoughts gene

I agree with Zach. It's time to... I mean, we've heard mostly let's not sell. If there's somebody that wants to sell, maybe they should speak up. Joan? Okay, didn't Doula make a motion? Doula? I second that motion. I say it sounds like everybody wants to keep it. There's no reason to sell.

Okay, well, I'll say why I don't see any reason to sell. I think everybody. So Joan, I'm not sure what the motion is that Dula made. I think what she said is that maybe we'd have to have Dula restate it so that we get it clear. And that's fine that you second it. We can still discuss.

Julie, you want to say what your motion was again? Somebody hand her the mic. My motion was that no decision of selling the church would be done before the spiritual unrest is solved in this congregation. Thank you. Joan, is that what you seconded?

I second what Dula said, and my reasons are we have been instructed, and Russell has been in on this discussion in Florida last winter with a Finnish brother, that with our spiritual unrest and division in this congregation, we need to gather and discuss and discuss. And I believe he agreed to do that. If we scatter our congregation, we're throwing the issue under the bench.

yeah as long as it's here i am fully in support of us keeping this congregation keeping the church intact so um just wanted to comment on that that seems like it's working very well for us and most people seem like they're in the same same mind keep the church this is dave parks okay risto i was just gonna second her motion also but

That was all my comment was. Okay, next on the list is Paul Pilbinen. Many of us board members haven't taken the turn to speak today because we wanted to hear what the members had to say.

financial report, if I could just go there first, mentioned, I heard from somebody else that we had 190 members. I think our annual meeting listed about 174, and at our board meeting we heard that we, so far maybe heard from 110 members as far as paying dues, so there's a gap in maybe missing somewhere between 16

haven't paid any dues yet so Josh said this was really what your reminder to pay dues this is your your second reminder to pay dues anyway Russ's comments I very much appreciated them I very much support them I very much agree with them and as far as the comment that

It was made about there are no dividers in heaven. That's probably true. I guess it would be true. As far as on this earth, God has divided people. And it's not man that's done it. God has done it. His patience maybe has run out. It's a very fearful thing. It's a very sad thing.

God, the Bible says that I will not, I can't remember exactly how it goes, but I will not be with man forever because man is flesh. And if we're not humble and look at our own situation honestly, God can

you look in the book of Numbers chapter 16 very terrible thing happened the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron saying separate yourself from all this congregation that I may consume them in a moment that happened in the Old Testament but sad to say in 1972 1973

consumed. Some have never returned, very few. We pray that they would. Is there a mic up there or am I running upstairs? He's gonna come downstairs for you. I'll meet him halfway.

Dear brothers and sisters of this congregation that has been beloved to me my whole life, I want to first make just a couple of minor notes and then speak what I have in my heart and mind. Regarding the membership numbers that Josh noted

I saw that list and agree with the list. I would say there's probably 10 or 15 on the list that probably don't come here anymore and switch congregations, but had paid dues at the annual meetings. So they're still on the list and they still are members here until they tell us that they're not. But so it just, that's just one minor item, but it doesn't affect the discussion in a great deal.

The second point that I wanted to note is what Dennis Johnson said. Dennis, dear brother, this isn't a matter of money. It isn't a matter of greed or lust after money. I haven't heard anything like that. Then, my thoughts are this, and I want to confess my faith openly.

I see this meeting as much more than whether to sell the church or not. The reason we're gathering here, I think, of course, is to discuss this offer and to decide. But what has brought us here is much greater than a practical decision. I have wondered

Where is the old Minneapolis congregation that I have known and many of us have known? One that is active, connected to God's Zion in a broader sense, and supportive. Supportive of our central organization as opposed to critical. We had a meeting the other night where Eric Jurmu came to present

the work of the LLC, where many questions about the LLC and rumors that I've even heard circulating were answered, but there were very few here. All summer long, I've wondered, do we have a congregation anymore? And I agree with what Paul Park said.

that COVID has affected it to a degree. But I think this has been going on for a longer time. There were people that came all summer long that did what they had to do to attend services. And we had maybe 30, 40 people, sometimes rare occasion, a few more at Sunday morning services.

Our evening services in a general sense, even beyond the COVID issue, are very poorly attended. I think part of this is people live, many people live quite far from the church, and so it's not easy to come back for Bible class after going home from work.

some of these kinds of practical reasons but I don't feel the kind of energy that once was in our congregation one sister commented and I'll note that with regard to these spiritual matters is not in agreement with me but she wondered why our special services are so poorly attended

Regarding selling the church from a practical viewpoint, I think what has happened in southern Minnesota, the move to the west and north and so forth, is indicative of what people have done, wanted to do, and joined churches close to their homes. The spiritual divide that we've experienced has been a big factor

In the membership growth. I have to say that. That's what I feel. That's how I see it. Plymouth to me doesn't seem like a long term location. God only knows. And God's timing will happen when it does. And that's for the congregation to decide.

But I don't feel like just looking at where people are living, where they've moved to. There aren't too many that are living close to where I live. And granted, this church still is not so far for many people. I think that there could be some practical ways of considering the church sale

and working with the other southern Minnesota congregations, because I think there's another congregation probably is going to form in southern Minnesota at some point, looking at the numbers, and I think there's a will, there would be a way to work together with other southern Minnesota congregations to find a solution. As I look at our churches, no more mine,

than it is those many dear members who have served here, lived here, and built this church, paid for this church. People like Ken Cassidy, Don Holloman, Mim Jurmu, Greg Fuller, Miriam Lopesa, we could go on and on. This is the building of God's children, and one that

I think, can serve us and God's sign. And God only knows what will happen. But mainly what I wanted to say is this, that I fully agree with what Paul and Russell have already brought out. I need to confess my faith before you. I feel it would be best to sell

for the preservation of the faith of all of us, to join the other congregations where we would be cared for, where we would still be in God's kingdom, and where we could, there together, work, continue to work, discuss together with the members of those congregations and praying that God will help us

This seems to me like the best approach. And granted what Dula has said, that would be nice if that could happen, that spiritual unity would return. And I agree with what Emily said, that this problem is not only a Minneapolis congregation problem.

I have to say that few congregations experience this divide that we do. So I feel like, for the sake of restoring unity, for the care of my own faith life, as well as the faith life of all of us, selling this building, agreeing to sell this building, would be a good matter to pursue.

We don't know what God's will is. We might even decide that, and it may not happen. Anything can fall through. The city can not approve what the developer wants to do. Deals can fall through. You know the story. But what has brought members to the point where they feel like it's time to sell?

This is what I have heard and this is what I feel myself. The spiritual divide has tired the congregation to the point of wanting to sell. I know that there are many here that would like to sell. For that reason, they're tired. We've tried to discuss, discuss, discuss and unity has not returned

I include Kathy and myself in this. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. You know, many of you criticize me very directly and have said that I'm the source of the problem, that all things lead to me,

That's okay. You can feel the way you do. And if I'm wrong, I want to be in the care of God's congregation. So I don't know if we will be able to stay here much longer. God only knows. That's not a threat, but it's a reality with us.

Then, when I consider help for our congregation, typically congregations ask for help from the central organization. Many in this congregation rejected that help, refused to speak. When there are brothers from the LLC here, refused to get help, refused to

shared their thoughts. Some of you did. There's little trust with some of you in the LLC, I have to say that honestly, and I think you would agree with me. So when I consider getting help, I don't see the divide that we have

that that's going to change with our help. And we've rejected the help of the LLC. Many have. If we join other congregations, I think we'll be cared for there in the midst of God's kingdom. Maybe it would allow us to better focus on our own faith life instead of the divide that's here.

I really believe that we will be cared for wherever we go if we have that desire. But I think that if we don't find a constructive way forward, the spiritual division that we experience here is also going to become a physical separation. That

That's my concern. I know that many who have loved this congregation and served and continue to serve feel this way and are tiring and likely are considering leaving. It's real.

Then those that, what was that, Jim? Then those that are critical of the LLC, of the Minneapolis Board, will be left here. These are the thoughts of my heart. I can't say it any other way

Yet, I pray that God will help me, will help you, and that no one would be lost from this sheepfold. Those that are resisting, those that are critical, I exhort you to repent, care for your matters.

while there is still day. God will help. God is a good God, a loving God, a forgiving God. And God will and has promised to take care of his children. I am sorry that I have to speak so plainly and directly

But that's how I understand it. May God help all of us and show us the way. But I'm a sinner. I know I've offended many of you with my comments.

I err in thought, in deed, in word. And I can only ask that if grace and forgiveness yet belongs to me, we will also forgive them. In Jesus' name, our precious Lord. God help us. Amen.

I guess I'll take my lead from Keith. I know Mike said that this should be strictly about whether or not we sell the church.

one thing that popped into mind immediately is if you don't feel comfortable here, Keith, we're not holding the gun to your head, you don't have to stay. I'm certainly not, would not come from the approach that I'd like to see you go or anything like that, but it seems like I've been, I've taken it this way that, well, we disagree with you, it seems like we can't come to agreement. I know in discussions,

We've had, you know, you and I have had personal discussions and they've been very good and I think in the right spirit of mutual respect. And sometimes it's been a little more contentious perhaps, you and I both know that. But if your thoughts are what they are and you're certainly entitled to them,

that doesn't equate all of a sudden that we connect the spiritual with the temporal, that because you feel the way you do about the spiritual condition and us incorrigibles, that now it necessitates the sale of this property. It still comes to the congregation. If the congregation wants to hold on to it, and there are many people who probably agree with you, they would probably want to stay here. And

as long as the word is preached it doesn't depend on what building it's in either whether it's sold or whether it's kept the word can still be preached and there are a number of people that would like to stay here we'll find other brothers that are willing to come here and serve I also find it remarkable that you know you say you want to be in the care of the congregation

Well, the congregation voted very clearly at that second John Lettula meeting where he was ultimately taken out of his duties, that there was a motion made, it was seconded, the congregation voted resoundingly to have these doctrinal discussions. And I attended some of the board meetings where some of this issue came up. And what I did tell you there was I found it very remarkable

that as a servant of the word, you would vote against having these discussions. That indicates to me that there isn't a willingness to hear the congregation. It goes back a little bit to what Dennis said earlier. There's this presumption that you are right, those of you on the other side who oppose me are wrong. We're not opposing you, we're opposing the teachings that don't conform to the scriptures.

One of the reasons I left Cokato to come here is because one of the teachings I was hearing in Cokato, particularly from one speaker, was don't read Scripture. Now, he didn't come out and say it entirely, but it comes out with different clothing on it. It's the same bad wolf. It's this, that wisdom doesn't save you. Oh, we know that, okay?

But let's remember that faith without doctrine doesn't save. It says in the Scripture that he who transgresseth does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, has not the Father, does not have God. We can't have faith without doctrine. And in the second book of Timothy, the third chapter talks about how all the Word was written

that from a child you have known the Holy Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, that this is profitable for instruction, for rebuke, and for instruction in righteousness. And when I see blatant disregard for that, and suggestions from speakers, those that have been charged with guiding the flock in the Word, that they stay in the Word, and don't start taking on some kind of a narrative

that men in Loretto perhaps have come up with. Okay? I'm not opposed to the central organization on a standalone, you know, because it's the central organization. Of course, I want to be in support of the work that they do, and they do a lot of good work. And I'm in support of that. But when the teaching goes off the rails is what I have a problem with. And heaven help me if I'm wrong.

I want the congregation to care for me, too. But we've had many discussions, and Keith, you've stated openly many times that there's an overemphasis on Christ in the written word. Well, if this faith was not based on Christ, then what is it based on? I'm not interested in a faith that's not based on Christ, because the Bible itself tells me that it is Christ.

So let's not connect what we each other believe and that you're becoming tired. I agree with you, I'm becoming tired of this too. Okay, but what choice do we have? And selling the church is not gonna solve anything. I see that as a direct, direct hit and a direct cause of division.

If there was ever anything tailor-made for it, that's it. And I find it a little curious, as I stated in my letter to the board, that there has been no talk in the congregation beforehand to float this idea, to see what the temperature is. And yes, offers can be considered and discussed. I had no problem with that. But no replacement property has even been talked about. Well, that kind of indicates something.

So, to make my position very clear, I'm firmly opposed to selling this property. And I personally, because of the problems in other congregations, I'd rather come to the place of where I grew up. And whether I agree spiritually with fill-in-the-blank name in this congregation, I still...

like to see the other faces here. Now I know I've personally been missing from a lot of the services is because my work schedule is erratic and it's not by design. I still want to come here. I missed a lot of Sundays when I was in Cokato in those 10 years that I was there because of my work schedule and then family commitments or whatever might come up. But I'd like to see this congregation discuss these matters further

And be given time to digest this church sale idea. And just give it some time. I don't think we're in a rush to make it this soon. Next on the list is Barb Lieber. I just had a couple of thoughts here.

I actually never thought this meeting was for making a decision today. I thought that this was an informational meeting. I don't feel that anything has been devious or underhanded or has any other meaning. I think that if it hadn't been for COVID, we probably would have discussed it a long time ago. That's my thought on that. If we were to vote,

I think the congregations decide when that is gonna be, and I think it should be by ballot and not by hands. That's my thought on that. The other thought, I think that there's valid reasons for not selling as well. I guess I'm not sure which way I'm leaning. I guess I'm leaning towards, but I can't really say that for sure right now. I wonder, I know we would be welcome in any other congregation,

I wonder with the way they do their COVID stuff, it might be kind of, I don't know, do you get to go that week or not? And I do like that I can come on Sunday here. But I guess God has already made the decision what's happened. He already knows. So I think we vote or we decide with what our heart is. And we feel free to give our reasons and our feelings.

we go from there i think it's important to not necessarily i don't know if i'm going to say this right or not this is a temporal decision i think it has come to to fruition to even consider it because of the spiritual divides though otherwise we might not even be thinking it or we might just go with it um

As soon as there was one other thought I had, I jotted a note or two down because I thought I'd forget. No, I guess that's really all I got. Thanks. Thanks, Barb. Gordy Kumpula. Yeah, I'd be willing to look into selling

and i think the board should look into the offer that they have received but i am in favor of looking into selling kenny yeah i know i've already spoke a couple times but i felt need to follow up on paul's comment

which was God divides and he referred to Old Testament in Numbers referring to Korah but where I got my information was from and I'm sure his is from the Bible but this small book on Habas written by Beno Habas and on page 18 which I often think about and it talks about the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is always

And I emphasize, always a gathering and uniting spirit. It does not beget one brother into one corner and another brother into another corner. So to say God divides, I think it's a false statement. And I think you should, I would strongly encourage you to read Hubbard's book, Cover to Cover, because it's a great little book.

Got a lot of good information in that portion. Again, bottom of page 18 refers to the Holy Spirit as a gathering and uniting spirit. Sarah Lucky? Is that Sarah? You've got a mascot. Sam? Samantha. A lot of my thoughts, my experiences,

prominent thought that I had was spoken by DTs and then it was also just recently spoken that it was an informational meeting that I thought I was coming into, not one that was being decisive today. Another thought that I had was yes, I've heard a lot of people are against selling the church and there are a couple that have spoken that are for selling the church. What would be

some of the benefits to selling the church is that we should be open to listening to both sides instead of just making one decision without fully having all of the information. Sorry, one other quick thought I had was if we do indeed sell the church, I know a lot of...

a lot of the question has been around well there's no building that we would go to necessarily well what would be would it be even worth considering having or looking for a new building more like southeast for people that come more from the city side instead of where there are already so more um so many more congregations in the northwest part of the cities julie

You're done? Cal? Oh, I got you too, Cal. Yeah. I think you can hear me. I, uh... We can hear you if you make sure you talk into the mic, then we'll hear you. I'm just fine. Thank you. That last guy, the previous guy, that's

I used to read those in the Army. That was a good little book. A little short, small little book. Yeah, anyway, as far as what he said, you know, he offended a bunch of people and this and that. I don't think he really offended anybody. I think it's just fine that he was willing to speak your mind. Can't overthink things too much.

anyway as far as uh selling the church it would be certainly convenient for me as it is right now you know such a short drive and uh how far is elk river for example here another 20 miles is 25 miles from my house or monticello is further yet and so on

I like it here, and it's been my home for many years, you know, even since I moved to Minneapolis as a kid, you know, in that old humble church, and was away for a while in Spokato, but now back here for, you know, 25 years or whatever. So, going on 30, so, you know, it's been my home for the most part. Actually, no matter where I've gone in the meantime, though, I always felt that home

place for a while. In 93, worked out west in, what was it, the 80s, parts of three different years. I just felt totally comfortable there, any place I go. And that's the way it should be, but as far as monetary, like this church is paid for,

and I know we got ongoing expenses but nothing to do with making payments on as far as I know we have we have as a unit or how do you say LLC I mean if all the churches in around we have expenses Tony they have what maybe some of the other buildings that were built

i know that when we when rockford started we sold the land and we gave a real huge chunk for them in that sense i think that maybe somebody actually you know somewhat indebted to us really we didn't have the same situation that we had excess money but uh yet i don't think that the money part is

don't see i don't see where you know you should consider moving to some other far away or further away location for the residents locally here i've always gone to the closest residential from where i lived and uh personally i like it that way because it always

He said, the church has been here at the infant.

I don't see where it's going to be added unity by locating somewhere else or this or that. Concentrate on faith as if we all have to concentrate on faith daily. I know in my days I get how many temptations a day. It makes me feel pretty miserable sometimes. And not always so successful. I feel many doubts and everything else. And I come to church another Sunday. I'll go one more time and see if I can still, you know,

still be accepted. And week to week, day by day actually, and I'm still here today, but anyway, the Gospel is still here, the Living Word is still here, and there's no need to think that it's going to just up and disappear.

I'm with you every day until the end of the world, he says. And he also tries your faith to humble. Somebody goes astray, well, he's got a way to humble in a big way. I know I've experienced that myself. It's not fun. You never have a choice to choose your trial. But anyway, considering who I am, I need the gospel myself.

Crystal? Crystal?

I don't even know where to start here, but the whole idea or the thought that selling this property is going to take care of or even heal or begin the healing process is ludicrous.

Keith, yes, we do need to continue talking. And there are lots of people that have concerns about you also, including very prominent members in Finland that I have talked to. So, Keith, I would implore you to take the mirror and look at yourself

take care of your own matters before before going and accusing others but I don't want to go down that road at this point I just I have to go back there's no valid reason or thinking

That would suggest selling this is going to improve things. And your frankly your sermon of unbelief that there are certain brothers that preach too much Christ in the written word. Keith, I'm concerned about that. But

Keith, you can believe that, forgiven. Even right now, all sins forgiven, Jesus' name in blood. I think it's time to for each one of us to examine and actually sit down and listen to each other instead of talking past each other. Um,

not hearing the actual content that somebody is trying to convey in their message. Instead of trying to shut everybody down, let's have open discussion. Let's talk more and more. That's all I have to say. So, next is Sinika.

I don't want to turn this into a debate either, but what Keith said is he thought that selling the church and moving to different congregations was a road to healing because the congregations there could heal us. And you just told him that was a stupid idea. So just, you know what? It works both ways. If you replay what you said, listen.

Well, I'm sorry, that's what I heard. And I don't want to debate it. Like I said, I just, I felt the need to at least say something there. Sinika? This summer, early part of the summer, I wasn't able to come to church much due to health reasons. But then, since I've been able to come physically be here, I tried to come pretty much as often as there's services and happenings for Bible class.

But the attendance, people don't come here. Physically, they don't come. One evening, when Russell was serving, and when the opening song began, besides Russell, I, internet broadcaster, organist, song leader, and a service director, there were two congregation members in this sanctuary. Two. And during the song, there were a few more trickled in

So at the end of the evening, we may have been like 15. And there were a few Sunday evenings, because then after services, we step outside to visit. I even took a picture of all who were at the church. There was 14 besides myself. I was number 15. That's all. So because of the lack of attendance, despite of these bigger numbers, and lots and lots and lots of new members come from different congregations,

People don't attend. There's no money coming in from collection. And from that kind of experience, time and again, over this summer, I thought, why are we holding this building? Why? Why? If we sought for the few people that attend the services regularly, they could easily drive to other congregations. I know we could.

So my, from the bottom of my heart, I shook my head time and again. All these new members, all the old members too, who are they? There's few regulars that are usually there than when people, more people showed up. But like I said, I just completed two people in a sanctuary besides myself and the people who have the authority to serve in one form or another.

Next is Patrick. My question, well first of all I wanted to echo what Barb had said that I was thought that this was a discussion and information only type of meeting and that until Wednesday when you know I heard that it might be otherwise. So I think we should clarify that. Are we intending to try to

vote on some type of yes or no proposition today and if we're not then you know what direction can we give the board today as far as what we want to do unless there's just such a high majority in one direction or the other which way we could do a vote by hand to determine that I mean if we have an overwhelming majority that says no we're not interested then

we can just table this until the next time it comes up. And if there is an overwhelming majority that seems that there is a proposition out there that they might be interested in, then we can schedule a future meeting where we can vote by ballot, because I do believe that's a very good idea. You know, we've been here two hours and we still have the Bible class thing to go to, so is there a way we can wrap up this portion of the discussion

either by a vote of hands that overwhelmingly says we're not interested, or we are interested as a congregation, and then know what direction to go forward. So Pat, to answer your question, the board didn't come to this meeting with a distinct plan. We do have a developer that asked us to

if they could buy our property, we said we'd bring it to the congregation. So we owe it to them to give them some sort of feedback on where we're at, that's all. But we didn't come here with a plan that we had to vote on anything. So it is in some ways a discussion. It was also informational that this, an offer that

that we didn't have before. And so that's where we're at. We don't have a finite end time, but we should be able to give the developer some sort of a... Do we want to do a quick vote? Show my hands to give the board some direction? Not yet. Not yet. Okay. Well, at some point then. I know it's really nice outside and I know

Well, and many people have asked me as they're leaving, that's not just purely for my own interest that, you know, is there going to be a vote, you know, and so there's, I think other people have the question. We know there's going to be a vote already because there's a motion and a second on the floor. So we know there's going to be a vote. So next person on the list is Emily.

I guess this is kind of echoing off the conversation that you guys were just having about, like, are we voting on this issue or what's going on with it? Emily, Emily, Emily, take your mask off or hold the mic right there. I can't understand what you're saying, sorry. All right. There you go, perfect. I'm going to blow you away. Okay, so this is piggybacking off the conversation you guys just had, whether we're voting on the issue or what the scoop is.

I was just reading through a note in my phone from two years ago, September 30th of 2018, when we had the congregational discussion where we were talking about John's position and whether he was still going to be serving in Minneapolis. And I had written a note to myself that I probably made a comment of,

wondering why it had to be such a hasty-feeling decision to whether to have John continue to serve or if that was going to change. And now I'm looking at it, we're not even two years later and we're talking about selling the church. I would never have thought that it was going to get to this point, to be honest with you. And I understand the concerns about attendance

I've served in various duties here. I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm just stating the facts and I know that that can be a thing. But ultimately I don't think it needs to come to a place of judgment on other people though either. We all, I mean I'm not saying that church shouldn't be a priority because it should and I'm guilty of that myself for not always making attendance.

But I don't think it needs to become a factor of judgment on other people and whether we should keep the place. And this isn't a comment that's directed at anybody. I'm just stating that. And so, you know, when Keith made the question wondering do we have a congregation, well, yes, we do. I don't see why it needs to become an issue of judgment. And, I mean, it just, there's a couple of things that

Just kind of made me feel a certain way about that, I guess, because even comments about not feeling the same energy that Minneapolis was years ago, well, yes, there's been a lot of change over time, but that is one person's opinion, and we all are entitled to our own opinion about this, and we all know we're a level-headed block. That's been taught to us since...

sunday school so i don't know i don't i just sometimes i get the feeling that when certain people make a statement or a comment about something not to belittle anyone but it feels to me that sometimes people hold that in higher regard than one of our fellow believers and that's concerning to me but and obviously these are these are difficult things that are challenging things but to say that we've tried to discuss we're tired we've tried we haven't gotten anywhere

It just seems a little bold to make this statement that we've tried. And I know personally many people in this congregation that out of care and love for their fellow believer have wanted to have a conversation and continue conversations about this. But then to be talked to in a sense that we've tried this already. It's not working.

It seems incredibly bold. And when there have been multiple people that have made those statements already today, to me, what that feeling says to me is that, hey, we already know. You don't get it. You ain't going to get it. So let's just move on. And that's not love. We're forgetting that in the whole process. And that's what's so distressing to me is the fact that there's people that just want to write off other people. That's so wrong.

I'm really struggling with that, and I don't know why we would have to vote on a decision that an arbitrary developer came to the church and said, hey, we want to purchase this place. Well, how many others are out there? And furthermore, we own this. They don't own it. We can take our time. Okay, next on the list is Lorraine.

Just back to the proposal from the developer and the information that you were able to give. I can't help but view it as an opportunity that God is providing for the congregation and for the building. Lorraine, will you do me a favor? Yeah. Put that right there so we can hear you. Just back to the proposal from the developer.

towards the building and the offer, the information that you were able to share with that. I can't myself help but view it as an opportunity that God has provided at this time for this congregation amongst many other things that have affected it as well. And I would be in favor of looking into that more at least.

for the good of the congregation and for the good of my own faith. I want to trust that God will take care of us no matter what. He'll watch out for us.

Okay, so I have to agree with what Barbara said, and Patrick voiced it also, that we should be voting by ballot, and it needs to be announced, I think it's two weeks prior, if we decide to sell. And also I agreed with her comment on, yeah, these other churches, Monticello, Rockford, I don't know how Elk River is, but they're going through the alphabet, so you can just go whenever you want. We here have a freedom. I like to come Bible class, I like to come Sunday mornings,

I can come every time I want, but the other churches you have to during this COVID time. So I think that's one of the nice things. And we have a small congregation. I love our small, cozy congregations. Although I just visited with someone who just moved here from a teeny tiny congregation. She said, this is large. But I also feel like God is a patient God.

I got a little rattled when I heard that God has become impatient. I don't believe that. God is a patient God. He's a friend of sinners. And I still believe that God's plan is that we need to stay and discuss and discuss around doctrine. I know many don't like the word doctrine, but ultimately doctrine is just how we believe. And that's where unity and love comes.

If we all scatter to different congregations, this unity will never come. I would like to see our congregation come back to love and unity. And then we could discuss if we want to sell the church, and I think it'd be no problem. Also, let's see. Yeah, and God says where one or two are gathered, He is still...

in his name here, and I know this spring, when the Fed Minister was here, we heard him several times in his sermons and several congregations that we don't come to church just to check that box. So I know Sinika had posted this picture, and it was the first service after the mask became mandatory, and I know there were several comments on this group that

hey, I don't like to wear a mask to church. I'll listen online. That doesn't mean that people are not wanting to come to church. This summer has been a very rare situation, and I believe it's because of the mask, because of the COVID. Some people don't want to be around a lot of people. So I think we can't start judging, selling the church just because of what's going on this year in the world.

And I also, I want to see us keep our church. We have so much unrest in the world today. I think we need to have a place that feels like a safe haven, a place for us to gather and continue to discuss and discuss. And I believe that's what God wants. I want to add on to this as Dave parks. Martin Luther says, in all controversy, the word alone must decide.

We can't deviate from the word. And scatter without discussing stuff. John likes a lot. First of all, about half the people, or a large number of the people

We're originally here today have left, so it's hard to get an accurate vote if we would take a vote. And, um, when I raised my hand earlier, apparently it wasn't noticed because I had to raise my hand again. But at that point in time, when I raised my hand, according to my estimation, about 80 to 90% of the people who spoke up were opposed to selling the church.

and maybe two at the most were for selling the church. Originally in Southern Finland, there was just the Helsinki congregation. Then over time, Borgo, Spanov, and Hidinkä, and Vanta, and Lohja, and eventually Espo, and so on and so forth. So they're all originally part of Helsinki ROI.

And Helsinki ROI is known as the richest ROI in Finland. But they didn't begin to disperse all their monies to those new sprung up congregations because they were originally part of Helsinki. Helsinki has kept the money within their own organization even yet today. And then we must remember that this selling of the church or not to sell the church is completely a temporal issue.

We cannot spiritualize it. It's a temporal matter. Sue? I just have a comment or question maybe. I find it very interesting or maybe unsettling that

We have people coming from other congregations that were unsatisfied with their ministers, their board, and now they've come here instructing us, unsatisfied with our board, unsatisfied with our speakers. I wonder what's really going on. It's not a good feeling.

But they have many, many instructions for us and then wonder why we may be tired or feeling the need to be in the love of maybe other congregations that aren't so boldly instructing us how we should believe. When I feel like Minneapolis as a congregation, we haven't changed.

now we're instructed that we need to change very very sad that's all i have to say we have one bar left of battery to discuss and then the meeting's over you can change your battery

First I just had a comment on the question of when this discussion will be over and should there be a vote or not be a vote. This meeting was presented as a discussion to hear feedback from the congregation and I know people were specifically told by board members that the intent was not to vote. So I think the board could very confidently after these many hours of discussion go back to the

buyer or whoever gave the bid and say the congregation has had a chance to discuss but we're not ready to give an answer there's no urgency or hurry and i think to try to push it through is not going to help bring calm and peace to this congregation so there's no rush i think we've heard some great discussion and we can continue to think about it and discuss and personally i don't think we even need to vote today

Secondly, I raised my hand in response to the comments about the church attendance this summer. Well, Joan kind of addressed this as well, but obviously everyone knows there's a worldwide pandemic going on. And if someone feels comfortable coming to church, that's great. But I don't think we should be judging anyone else who might not feel comfortable and counting and looking around who's coming, who's not coming.

People have the option to listen online, and I know that's been very widely used, so those kind of points, in my opinion, are irrelevant. And thirdly, I guess it's been sad for me to hear some comments from people who seem to have lost hope in this congregation. My prayer is that we would

keep this church and keep this congregation and I would hope that we all could have patience with each other and love with each other and trust in God that he will guide us to take care of any issues that are in our congregation. I'll go. There's one point that I forgot to say when I wasn't using notes, but it's

someone mentioned earlier, there's the freedom to join this congregation, but there's also the freedom to join another congregation if you feel you want to move on. So, I mean, the doors are open both ways. Matt, I'll go. You've been on the list, Danny, for a long time. I'll try to keep it short here. I'm

About dues, I think everyone chooses to pay when they decide to pay. And because of COVID, I think we can all agree that there's definitely a shortfall of dues, but it hasn't changed for myself. I think we've always been lollygaggers when we pay. I think the latest we ever paid was probably like Christmas day service or something one year, but they still got paid. So I think those that have been blessed with work during this time of pandemic,

are still more than willing to pay and just like we've heard people stand in front of the church that might be on the board or whatever and encourage those people to pay who haven't paid that I've only heard in my lifetime that God has blessed. And you know I've been working on a job lately that there's been a lot of people even from Cokato and I heard from one that even their church participation has been very low. So I don't think it's just a time

that we're experiencing here in Minneapolis, but many people maybe have chose to listen at home and whatever the case may be. I think we all should also remember the importance of some of these things that are said in the Bible, and I just want to quick read and encourage you to also read what Ephesians chapter four says. But it says here, I'll read a few verses, that we henceforth be no more children,

tossed to and fro, or no, sorry, I want to start with 13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slate of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive. But speaking the truth in love may grow up

into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. And I'll skip to the end. I know that during times of battle, our flesh gets in the way, but here it says that, But all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and evil speaking be put away from you with all malice. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake, hath forgiven you. I don't have to add, but I'll just say that

we would remember, as I've heard before, that the love of God toward us, that he has forgiven us our sins, and that if he has forgiven us our sins, isn't it just a small thing to turn to one another in times of battle to forgive for those offenses that have been caused so that love and unity could be preserved and we could talk about the important thing about these questions that may be in

I just like to mention that it's really nice for Keith to I know it was difficult for him to be as transparent as he was but

always good to be transparent even if it's difficult and I want to say that I appreciate his transparency and then I just thought that perhaps Tula could retract her motion to vote on it because one sad aspect of our church congregation has been over the last several years is

we'll have discussions and then it'll turn into a vote and nobody's sure and there's kind of plagued with confusion and the membership dwindles because people get wore down and tired and then there's a confused vote and nobody knows for sure, not much clarity. So I would hope that maybe Tula could retract that and we could honor the board's recommendation that this was just a,

discussion and there wasn't going to be any fast and quick votes on this to dissolve the church and the other thing is is a year ago we had professional appraisers appraise it and we thought that we wouldn't sell it but then the dollar amount was three times and we maybe perhaps got inspired on the dollar amount so I just wanted to address that but I appreciate Keith's comments

Pearl? Maybe I missed what Tulith said, but I thought she said she made a motion that we do not have a vote until we have more of a discussion to try to get everybody together in this congregation, or did I miss it? And another thing I'd like to say is [personal finance details omitted]

And that's something that's a good reminder we can make up. And I was thinking, maybe if we're real far behind, we can have some kind of a chili feed or something at the Rock and R, and have it be a fundraiser. It'd be fun. We can do something like that. It's outside, so you don't have to wear a mask unless you want to wear a mask. And maybe people that like to bake, like I don't mind baking, could bring bakery

Oh, well, we took coffee away though, didn't we? Shoot. Well, maybe we got to put the coffee pot back on and then people could bring rolls, stuff that you could eat after church and charge for them and make money that way because we can't have our organized bake sale. But I guess I am, I very much would like to keep this congregation going and become a part of it, but I am uncomfortable

And I have been uncomfortable at some of the meetings because you can feel division. And I would like to not feel that division. And I don't know exactly how to go about doing that, but I think, I guess I don't want to throw in the towel. I'm willing to discuss, maybe get help from somebody else.

somehow get the niggling feeling that someone's trying to say, I've never been against the LLC. We are the LLC. We're all members of the LLC. So I kind of get a little bothered when I keep hearing that we're against the LLC. I don't know where that came from. The only thing I can think of is like if somebody had problems with Keith, for instance, he is very much part of the LLC, a big part of the LLC,

maybe that's where they're getting that well how are we going to go down that path because you know if that's the thing but we need to i think be careful and i i'm glad mike you kind of seem like you stopped it because to be honest with you like when evan started saying something about purple hair it just about my hair on the back of my head went up because that's the kind of comment so we got to put a stop to because that was if i remember right it was uh

abortion-loving, hair-dying libertarians was his comment, and I was like, what? And that was one of our first meetings here, and I was a little bit shocked, and I was actually a little bit shocked that he wasn't, like, kind of stopped from people, because it seemed like he was almost like they fed into that, and I was a little, very uncomfortable. And I'm not saying that there's not wrong part. I know that I'm big mouth, and I know Kenny can be sometimes

a little stubborn and opinionated, but there's stuff that's going on that is, I believe, probably not correct. And I just hope, you know, we have a good God, and I believe that we should keep the doors of this church open and have discussions, and hopefully, God willing, this congregation will move forward.

Pearl, do you have first-hand knowledge of Kenny's stubbornness? I just might. And Parks? Patrick?

There's many things that I like about this congregation, and I guess my interest would be in staying here. COVID has definitely made things interesting, but probably wouldn't be a good idea to base our decisions or the way we look at this kind of a big decision. It is just such a rare type of situation that I just don't feel that that's

really a good thing or using good judgment to just go based on what we're seeing right now. Even out in public, people have such different opinions about this whole COVID thing and maybe have changed their behaviors and I just don't feel like that's a good thing to base decisions like this on. So I guess I just, I don't really see a reason to sell. I feel like

From what we've heard, we're financially sound. We aren't so small. This is a good area. The values, I presume, would only increase. And then I just found it really interesting when Dennis shared his analysis of the location of members and how there was actually quite a large percentage of people that are not so far away from here. I also really appreciate the good mix of ages.

that that's a real plus and something that I really appreciate. And the sense of participation as far as day circle, the involvement that I've had there, coming to work at bake sales or other things like that, kitchen committee, that type of thing. I guess my experience has been really positive about that. And myself, I find it really a lot of fun to be involved and when I get that sense from other people as well.

And then the other thing that is just a practical thing, it seems like we hear that the other congregations are very crowded. And so it just, to me, it's like there's a lot of room here. You know, if people want to move here, that'd be even better. We've got room for them. I do get a little bit concerned when there is a spiritual tie into this. And I think that

sometimes I kind of get the sense that there might be a push away of some people. I guess I think of what was Christ's example. If these are sinners that we are talking about, Christ always approached a sinner with love and did not push that person away. So I just think we need to remember, all of us, that we have to remember even how Christ was an example in this way.

Let's hold each other in love and forgiveness. And it seems like there's been a lot of comments today, nice comments to hear that people are wanting that type of thing and to connect with other people in love. So I guess to kind of wrap it up, I would not be in, or I mean, I'm in favor of not dissolving, perhaps relocate, but...

feel that we should first know where we're going, what we're up against before we sign any kind of documentation or accept any kind of offer. And just to remember that this is just a temporal decision. This is not a spiritual decision. And we can certainly discuss that. But I do like Linnell's idea of the response to the board and to the potential buyer that we're just not ready.

I feel like that would be very fair and would give time for people to discuss, digest this a little bit more. And, yeah, I guess I like that. Okay, we have one more name on the list, and that's Florence. And then, Dula, if I could, while the mic is going to Florence, if I got that right, your motion was

Don't sell the church until the spiritual problems are solved. Okay, we'll get the mic back to you and we'll get it clear. Okay, I just don't know how to say this, but did somebody mention about all the people who have been here in the past and maybe helped build the church and all there? But anyway, wherever...

you know, we would be residing in a congregation. Wouldn't we pay money to the church, help build the church? So who, I mean, it's here for, you know, hundreds of people have helped support this church, build it. I mean, they've left from here. They've been free to leave. But if they wanted to stay here, they could have, but they've left. And

so it seems like we can't so dwell like what's in the past and what's happened in the past i i think we god only knows what will happen and if this church will get sold but i think we need to to think of the future here we've got young people here we've got we've got kids children in sunday school um it seems like we need to focus on the future not not the past and um you know paul and i were old

doesn't you know I'm glad this didn't happen 20 years 30 years ago because it would have been very sad for us and our kids we raised our kids here but if the church moves we listen online we got a car we can go places but and then and then faith is a personal matter and that's and that you know we could I mean I pray that I would stay in faith and it's it's a gift

And it can be taken away, so these are just unsettling, scary times, but I guess we have to ask for forgiveness and pray that we'll stay with faith ourself. Okay, will you bring the mic to Dula, please? Patrick, we're going to get this motion straight once and for all.

And we do have a motion on the floor, so we do have to deal with it. So let's get it clear what you said, Dula. My motion is that we do not decide to sell Minneapolis Church or its property before spiritual unrest is cleared. Okay. So what I said is,

is don't sell the church until but you said don't decide if we're going to sell the church until the spiritual problems are solved yeah okay and that was seconded and so um what we we do have john to your point um the people that are some of the people at least that have left are listening on zoom we do have a an option to vote on zoom as well and so we should be able to catch

Well, we won't catch everybody no matter what we do, but a lot of the people are still connected via Zoom. And so, Keith, come down here if you want to talk. And then Zach raised his hand too. We do have the option of doing private ballots. Zoom may be a problem, but I have great faith in our technological ability

It won't be. Okay. So on Zoom, if you're going to vote on Zoom, you need to put your, for your motion, we have to, the congregation has to decide if they agree with your motion to do a lot of.

Her motion is we don't decide to sell the church until the spiritual problems are solved. Keith and then Zach. Patrick, will you bring them the mic? Oh, you're right there. Go ahead, give it to Zach first. Just a couple of comments. First of all, voting via Zoom, at least for the annual meeting. I'm pretty sure we don't do votes, like proxy votes, if you're not present. So I don't know how we want to deal with that now.

I mean, the coronavirus is a little different. Say that again, Zach. So for the annual meeting, I'm pretty sure to vote, you have to be here in person. So I don't know if we want to deviate from that. So that's just one thought about voting. Another thing is this motion is kind of how you define when spiritual issues are resolved. So if we vote that, yes, we don't sell until they're resolved, how do we measure when they're resolved? That's one issue. Then if the motion doesn't pass, that in no way indicates that we will sell.

It just means that that motion didn't pass. It's as if it never existed and we're back to a blank slate. Just wanted to clarify those couple things. Keith? Wait, I'm going to get you the mic after Keith Dula. Or should I give you the mic before Keith? Yeah, just a brief comment. I don't have any problem with, you know,

voting on something. I think what John has brought up with many people having left is a valid point. But what Zach just said was the thought, one of Zach's points was the thought that I had is that how do we define when the spiritual matters are clarified? And we just don't know that. I don't think any of us could define that and decide that

Now is the time. So I think that while I have no problem with the congregation deciding whether to sell, whether not to sell, but I just feel a little uncomfortable tying in this spiritual unity before we could do anything. We don't know what will happen in the future. We pray that it would come, but we don't know. And then the thought that I had was,

But I think the way Linnell stated it, and I think Ann Parks, the direction to the board, that feels comfortable to me at this point. Yeah, the issue is that we do have a motion that we have to deal with it somehow. We have Jean Wickman next, Ole, and then you.

I didn't understand what you said about the Zoom voting. The people on Zoom will be able to vote. The only issue that I don't know is whether it will be private or not. At least one person will be able to see how they voted.

andrew did i have i missed your hand at some point andrew matilla did you have your hand up yeah okay uh motion is motion it was seconded motion has some uh challenges how do you define spiritual unity when that come day comes

that we feel unity. It's very clear. We don't have to worry about that today. Also, this is totally temporal decision. There has been comments about spiritual situation and so on, but this is temporal matter.

If you vote one way or another, it does not reflect any conditions of your heart, it does not make you being against anything, against board, against LLC, against God's kingdom. I encourage everyone

to both how they feel about this matter in practical matter. This is a practical question. Let's vote with that in mind. Okay. I don't have any more. I do have more hands on the list. Kenny? Then Cal. We'll give the mic to Cal first, will you? Holy, thank you.

Yeah, that was an interesting comment made a little earlier about thinking of the future, not just the past. And that is a, you know, a valid consideration. We've got young kids growing up. It doesn't take them long before they multiply, and who knows, hopefully, you know, nothing happens where they, you know, wander hither and thither. But, you know, that's the way it worked. I remember in Seattle when I first

with just a few people there. And then afterwards, when I went there, I had just a visit at that time. And then when I went there in, what was it? Oh, what was it? 80, 81, yeah, 81. And it's a huge congregation. And they're building new church and everything. It didn't take so long to get all those few people there that multiply exponentially

I mean, you know, and then if you locate someplace else, it might overcrowd someplace else, and then you got to start expanding there, and not only that, but you got to drive much further and everything else. If we had a plan as far as selling it, if we had an alternative, you know, that would be one thing, you know, but, you know, another place, another church in the same local, so we're not infringing on somebody else's...

You know, they're set for what they have for members right now, for the most part, and start multiplying that tree so they can add to their buildings and more expensive, you name it. I mean, it's possible, you know. But, you know, all in all, as I mentioned before, I'm in favor of keeping this building here and keeping the church. That's just the way it is with me. Patrick, bring the mic to Kenny.

So yeah, this has been good information. Seems like by far most people are enjoying coming here. Well, if we go with Patrick's thing, the meeting's over. I think he's got another battery.

Well, we have a motion on the table that we have to deal with, so we're going to try to deal with that. Well, Doula has to retract, I can't. Well, wait for the microphone.

There's rules on how to retract to it. I don't know all those rules either, but. No. Pearl doesn't want you to talk. So yeah, just kind of concluding, it was good information. You guys did your duty to bring it to the congregation. You could have just posted it on the bulletin board and said people read it at their leisure.

anyway uh i suggest we move on to the above class leaders or else postpone that to another day patrick bring the leg to doula please eyeball of my motion so

Somebody that has more brains than me has to tell me exactly how this works, but I think we need to have an approval for you to be able to. Patrick, bring the mic to Anita, please. Ole's next, after Anita. I just wanted to say that I've added, personally, two members to this congregation in the last three years.

you know, I'd like to take a little credit for that. We're growing. We're doing our best. But I also wanted to say that a couple years ago, I know there were some people who were uncomfortable with our discussions, but if that's a topic we could revisit, just being able to see each other face to face and talk about things. We all have so much love and

side of us and we can give that love to each other even if we don't agree on everything. I feel like we hear a lot about they and them and the divide and all these things but I have not felt that myself and I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I feel like I've been told there's issues but I haven't actually felt the issues and obviously

That's not everyone's experience, but I think a lot of people's it is. But going back to the Bible class leaders and that might, you know, when Patrick had the thought to have small discussions, just maybe that can be part of our Bible classes where we go back to the beginning because trying to clear up the air with any spiritual divide is like finding a needle in a haystack and

the devil blows so much smoke into the room, but if we can start at square one with each other, with love, and talk about things, how we believe, and there's just, I mean, there's a lot of us here, there's a lot of hope, there's a lot of love, and it's just my feelings. Ole? Um...

I haven't checked this lately, and someone might know this better, but my understanding is that when a motion is made, and if it's seconded, then the motion does not belong to the person who makes the motion. It belongs to the meeting. So I'm not sure if the motion can be taken back. We have had the same

uh question in the past meetings and uh i think it comes always back to the same question can also be withdrawn and please correct me but my understanding is that once it's seconded it cannot be withdrawn someone who knows better please correct okay zach one comment um i do have this feeling like

There are rules on how to do that. I'm not up on 100% on those rules, but it feels to me like what we could ask is we could ask the congregation if they accept doula's retraction by a raise of hands. And if everybody's happy with that, I think we could be happy with that. But Zach, go ahead. Yeah, technically you can't retract. Can you hear? Yeah, now I can. So technically you can't retract a motion, but if we vote on retracting it, that's the same as just voting it down, and that would be just fine, I think. So if we just...

I'll vote against the motion. It's the same as retracting it. It disappears. A motion that fails doesn't have any sort of decision-making power in a meeting. You know, it's like it failed, there's no results from it. So if we don't pass the motion, it doesn't mean we've decided anything about selling. It just means that that motion did pass and we're on to the next one. So the easiest way to do it would just be to vote down the motion real quick with a show of hands, and then we'd be on our way to Bible class. Leaders are pending the meeting.

Okay, so without further ado, Doula said she would retract her motion all in favor of her retracting and raise your hands. Any opposed? Okay, we're good. We're not gonna vote. So bring the mic one more microphone turn to Becky Stewart.

I put you on the spot. I was distracted, sorry. What's that? I was a little distracted when you said that. I guess there's been a lot of comments both ways and I guess I would like to ask the board to request a formal proposal that the congregation then can consider

and vote on yes or no. So you other brothers on the board who have listened to Michael Hawley can comment on this, but I believe that this is as formal a proposal as we'll get from them unless we say we're interested. So at this point with where we sit right now, what we'll tell Michael Hawley is that

At this point, the congregation isn't ready to make a decision. That's what I hear. So unless somebody... No, we got three hands back there. Oh, thumbs up. Is everybody in agreement with that? Okay. Don't go away with the mic. You might need it.

So we did the financial update already. So the Bible class committee brought a list of four names to the board at our August meeting. September meeting, we considered them. And the names are Gary Ouellette,

Eugene Keiko, Joshua Litalo, and Mike Germel. And the board considered those names and were in agreement with those names. I wasn't in total agreement with those names, but I was in agreement with three of them. So, the board was in agreement with those, but we wanted to bring them to the congregation

to see what you would say. And Ole has his hand up. Okay, I make a motion to approve names as they are. I second that motion. Patrick, that's all? Any further discussion? Roland?

Yeah, I would approve of that list. I would just have a couple of suggestions to add to the list. Gary Leftala and James Oyelato. Okay, the Bible Class Committee is present here. They got the names. Consider that a recommendation. So, Kenny?

the committee met with each and every one of the suggested names and discussed the faith and doctrine because I of course when I look around I recognize the faces I don't know all the names of everybody but for Bible class leaders and ministers we need to make sure we're on the same page with our faith and our hearts well I'm not on the Bible class committee so I wouldn't presume to speak for them but

Paul, would you have anything to say there? I guess Patrick, bring on the mic. I don't want to put you on the spot like that, but you're the head of the Bible class committee, so. Those were the four names Mike read that we discussed on the committee to recommend to the board to teach Bible class.

Did we personally meet with them and discuss? Was that Kenny said there? No, we didn't. And that wasn't, when I got the job from Mike, when Mike asked me to do the job, I didn't know that was part of the Bible Class Committee job, but these are brothers known to our congregation

and known to us, and we feel comfortable presenting those names now. Only need a motion to accept somebody's seconded it, so I'm not gonna say anything further. Joan's hand was up back there. I say we approve them all. There's no giftless child of God.

And if one doesn't want to do the job after they do it once or twice, they have the freedom to step down. Just a funny story, if I can inject humor here. My father, back in the day, was asked to be a translator in Longview. And he gave it a shot, gave it a couple shots. And then at the annual meeting in Longview there, he asked that he could be released because he had a difficult time doing it.

And everybody knows Howard Phillips. And he raised his hand right away and said, I second that motion. Matt Holbrook? I know we've been talking a lot today about doctrine and this and that, but would Bible class be a good opportunity to talk about some of these things? I just recall...

It just so happened this way, and now he's no longer living in this country, but there was a presentation given by Markus Lohi from Longview, maybe many of you have listened to it, and it was on one of the topics that maybe are under discussion justification, and I thought it was really nice, and I've discussed with a number of people, but two snowstorms happened to land in the days he was scheduled here, so it never happened. But I would just like to, if I have to, make a motion to even

you know, incorporate some of these topics of discussion so that maybe this way that we could study them together and that people would want to come, you know, hopefully this COVID thing could be soon be over and this church would be full and we could study together. Okay. Well, the Bible class committee heard that recommendation as well. So thank you. Okay. There's a motion on the table to accept the names.

All in favor? Any opposed? I guess that carried. Russell, would you lead us in prayer? Yeah, Patrick? Oh, okay. I came to the end of my agenda, so I thought we could just... Can you lead us in prayer, Russ?

Let us join in closing our meeting, prayer and thanksgiving. Our dear Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day. We thank you for the great love that you have shed on us because of sending your Son to suffer and die in behalf of our sins.

We thank you that you have blessed our lives. We thank you that you have blessed this congregation. We ask that you would continue to do so. Bless each and every one of your children. Give us power to continue to believe that our sins are forgiven. Dear Father, you know our hearts. You know our thoughts, our deeds. You know us better than we know ourselves.

So we ask that you would continue to open onto each and every one of us that preciousness of faith that we would continue to endeavor as your children on this narrow way of life, keeping faith and good conscience. Dear Father, we ask that you continue to bless the work of your children wherever they are in this world.

let the bloody gospel continue to sound forth, calling all those who seek for peace to repentance and giving us all access to the throne of grace, wherein we have the forgiveness of sins through the preached gospel and peace with you. And I'd like to encourage each and every one of you this evening to lift up your hearts and believe that your sins are forgiven. In Jesus' name, amen.

unto peace, freedom, and joy. And I also ask, can I hear that gospel for myself? I desire to believe together with you, and we say with all assurance, the Lord bless us and keep us. Lord, make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. Lord, lift up his countenance upon us and give us his eternal peace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

this afternoon's discussion with Psalm 282.