Glendale Congregation Meeting, October 17, 2020

Let us pray. Dear Heavenly Father, almighty, eternal God, we come before you this evening

Thankful for this gift of faith and for that work that your son did on the middle cross on our behalf. And we pray, dear Father, that you would preserve and protect each one of us as your children.

As you have protected us in living faith unto this day. Dear Father, you know our hearts, you know our thoughts, you know our worries and our fears. And we place ourselves into your care, dear Father,

That you could approach each one of us in our own place of watching to comfort, to encourage, to uplift, to correct, to rebuke, to exhort, to help each one of us on this way of faith. You know how filled with doubt and worry we are

And we pray as the psalmist did, behold this vine, and come and visit this vine. We pray for your presence this evening, that through your Holy Spirit, you can guide and lead our discussion. Grant us freedom and openness. Grant us one-mindedness and love.

Reveal unto us again that way of salvation prepared in your dear Son, that we would follow him in life, suffering, and doctrine. Dear Father, bless our gathering as only you can.

And we yet pray, dear Father, with the words that the Apostle wrote so many years ago. For this cause we bow our knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant us, according to the riches of his glory,

To be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in our hearts by faith, and that we, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all things what is the breadth and length and depth and height, and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that we might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Now unto you that is able to do exceedingly abundantly of all that we could ask or think. And unto you that works your power in us. Be glory in the church, by Christ Jesus, throughout all ages, forever and ever. This we ask in Jesus' name.

Peace, everybody. Welcome to our Glendale evening discussion. We've got a short little introduction, a couple of little articles to read, and then we'll open the floor for discussion.

As many of you know, an important part of our board meeting includes discussing matters of faith. At our October board meeting, we had quite a long discussion around how we believe. This was a very free and open conversation, which included personal confessions of faith, worries and concerns during these troubled times, and our home congregation.

Both speakers and board members agreed that it would be good to gather as a congregation to discuss the unity in our congregation and our journey here on earth as believers, especially since it has been so long since we have had a chance to gather together around God's holy word and visit our own matters of faith. I would like to begin with reading a couple of articles.

So these are from a couple of different contributors from the 2019 October Voice of Zion. In Scripture we are reminded to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which we have been called, with humility and gentleness and patience. We are reminded to bear one another in love, to maintain the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace.

Paul writes how there is one body and one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all. Ephesians 4, 1 through 6. In the third article of the Creed, we confess our belief that the work of the Holy Spirit is to call, gather, and enlighten, to sanctify the children of the Christian Church on earth, and to preserve and preserve it in union with Jesus Christ in the true faith.

The Holy Spirit leads the believer's personal endeavor of faith, our life, our speech, and actions. The Spirit instructs us to walk in the light as God is in the light. In doing so, we are drawn together in close fellowship one with another in the body of Christ, the congregation of God, 1 John 1.17. The gospel is the power of God.

Though we are one in faith and spirit, God's children carry the same sin and corruption as all people do. We fall into sin and need the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from all sin. We live of the Gospel, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone that believes.

Romans 1.16. If we neglect its use in caring for our faith, it has sad results. Sin can eventually separate us from God and his children. The experience of God's children shows that our adversary, the devil, not only works diligently to cause us to fall into sin, but wants to also destroy our unity and peace and cause division.

Differences can easily arise in family or between any of God's children. The gospel of the forgiveness of sins is the remedy as long as all remain humble and desire to live of the gospel. When offenses and differences are cared for with the blood of Christ, unity returns, which brings joy.

Caring for faith. In caring for our faith, God has given us his word, which we can read and study, and from which we find comfort and instruction. At the services and in the fellowship of God's children, we receive nourishment and instructions for our faith. We are in a secure place when we remain in the care of God's congregation.

Prayer is another precious gift God has given us. It is speech of the heart with God. Songs and hymns of Zion also comfort the teachers. James writes of the care of God for his own. Is any among you afflicted? Let him pray. Is any merry? Let him sing songs. Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church.

And let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven. James 5, 13 through 15.

Dear brothers and sisters in faith, we are the most fortunate of all people when we can have the precious gift of faith and dwell in God's kingdom, where we are loved and cared for with the gospel, the glad tidings of Christ. Behold how good and how pleasant it is, brother, to dwell together in unity. And I have one other short article here.

This one's titled, Road This Way, Old Word. Now we're here in heaven, says Paula, on Easter Saturday. They are sleeping. This is the caption my mother's sister wrote underneath a photo in an album I hold open. The photo was black and white. The album is from my childhood home. The photo shows me a two-year-old with my siblings and on standing before the graves of my mother and brother.

It is Easter Sunday in 1956. Our human minds tell us that they were called to heaven too early. I remember well that Christmasy St. Stephen's Day morning, my older sister says, mother was quickly trying to get herself ready to go and the children at her heels. We followed closely the going ons of her departure and I remember how mother blessed us as she was leaving.

Miraculous unity of saints. Mother's blessing, thought, and hands have carried me through the decades. This incomprehensible gift to have been born into a home where the Christian values were honored. In one writing, my father remembered, the words that mother left with us and her love have been like gold on the path of life.

It is a love that will never disappear. It is miraculous unity of the saints that exists between the rejoicing and the battling congregation. As a great and visible cloud of witnesses, those who have slept away in faith surrounding us, they say to us from here, row this way. Here, after all, is the real home. Though they have felt lacking, my parents sowed the seed, endeavored and looked forward with the eyes of faith.

We are still on the journey toward the home goal. There's a little poem here. Fair is creation, beautiful God's heaven, wondrous the path our souls are on. All through creation we travel singing as heavenward our pathway winds. The day after Christmas, Mother sings hymn in the church choir. It was her last song on earth.

In the evening of the same day, she was able to move from time to eternity with her firstborn son. The words of the song and its melody have traveled with me. They come alive again, and again, and bring a view of hope amidst everyday life and celebration. I pause my thoughts and ponder, how does a two-year-old small girl live in the reality of the unity of saints she has not known?

Trustingly, she thinks that her mother and her big brother are now in heaven. How comforting. She knows that heaven is her goal as well.

So, for this evening's discussion, I don't have any bullet points to discuss. I thought it would be good if we would just have the freedom to share what's on our mind. Like I mentioned in the introduction, it's been a while since we've had a chance to gather together as a congregation to discuss matters of faith.

And so the floor is open for anybody who would like to share. I would also like to encourage those who are at the board meeting, maybe they can take a speaking turn first to share some of the thoughts that they had at that meeting as a way to kind of break the ice. We have a couple of roving mics, so just raise your hand and we'll have somebody bring the microphone to you.

One of the thoughts that I had over the last few weeks and months is the question of how do I know that? And, you know, how do I know that the path I'm on is correct?

And for my teaching, for my parents, my own personal experience, the only way I know is by visiting with other believers. And feeling that peace that comes from discussing matters of faith. Knowing that there is something there guiding both of us. So that's one of the

One of the thoughts that I've been having over the last, like I said, weeks and months, and it would be good for me to hear how you believe too.

We've had a lot of discussions on the board over the last couple years. As we heard in that introductory one of the articles there about the importance of the unity,

A very apparent thing in our meetings has been the lack of unity between some of the speakers in the board. And we go to those meetings longing for unity, but yet it's not there. We've discussed

Many different manners of faith, many different doctrinal issues, and sometimes it's easier to express maybe what the differences are. Sometimes God doesn't give maybe that clarity, but yet the Spirit does an answer with some of the speeches.

And a portion of scripture that comes to mind is from 1 John chapter 4. It says, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world. And then down to the sixth verse, it seems like this also, that we are of God, he that knoweth God heareth us.

He that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. I think many of us have been involved to some degree, so much less, maybe so much more in discussions

Spiritual battles going on. And we can see that God has been patient. Us as humans, we would want to resolve everything now or a long time ago, but it hasn't happened. But as we can see with what's happening, what's happened in Minneapolis,

Many of these issues have been tied into here in our discussions. They're not light matters. These are very serious matters and we can see great division happening. And so it's good that we can speak from the heart. And what more can we say that the Spirit answers or doesn't answer? But I do have that prayer that

Trust that unity will be there when the spirit is the same.

I'm trying to share what's been on my heart. And I apologize to the board members and speakers that have heard, maybe recently, some of the thoughts and concerns that I have. Because there's some out there. Maybe I can try to share it with the congregation.

I have recently shared with the brothers how, since I have been asked to be on the Glendale board, many times going to board meetings with that heavy heart, often with doubts in my own self why I have been chosen to be a board member.

Many times, just with the difficulties and the busyness of life, going with the thought that why now I could be doing so many other things. And then also because of many times I feel my own sinfulness.

I often wonder how did I have those bad thoughts when so many brothers seemed like they spoke personally to me. God through the Holy Spirit spoke to us at those meetings and I was so uplifted and left with peace in my heart.

In the last year or so, I've left with quite a different feeling. Many times, we have fallen asleep at night with those same doubts in the morning. And I've had to turn that mirror to my heart and ask that question, am I straying in God's kingdom? Where am I going?

This isn't the piece that I've experienced before. So like Adam has mentioned, we visited many times, sometimes around personal issues or

Then other times with general concerns of what is going around in Zion that I think we're all familiar with. And I too have always went to those meetings still fearful with that prayer in my heart that unity would be restored and we could have that love that is only shared in God's kingdom.

The gospel is preached. I don't know, but as we see the turmoil and what's going around in Zion, I too feel like there is some connection and there is a wrong spirit dwelling here amongst us.

And I guess I've had that hope and prayer that we could visit as a congregation. Because though God has asked those that serve on the board and as speaker brothers to serve there, I know all the gifts are here in the mother congregation.

And I've longed for that, that correct love, even that rebuke that the mother shows her children. And even for myself, I've prayed that if this congregation would see me straying,

I have many fears and doubts coming here tonight and for all my sins.

Another thing that's been on my mind [unclear] the Holy Spirit speaks to us. And how does the Holy Spirit speak to us? How do we hear that voice? I think it's an important question to ask.

And I know for myself that the Holy Spirit doesn't help me speak in clear terms. In words that I can express clearly. And most often it's a feeling inside of me. A feeling of peace. A feeling of restlessness. A feeling of worry.

Which is different than my conscience to some degree. Because I don't, the Holy Spirit never, I never feel guilty with the Holy Spirit, just these other few. I remember a sister relating to me one time that she had been attending a meeting a while back in another congregation and it was a stressful meeting and

She noticed that after a little while, after in some of the speeches her foot was bouncing, that she had her legs crossed. And in other speeches it was still. And she turned to her sister, and her sister was the same way for her. And so, is that really the way it is with us, with the Holy Spirit? That is difficult to express. Yet when we see it, even physical manifestation like that, that we can say amen.

How do we know the Holy Spirit is speaking to us? That would be a good point to discuss.

I was just taking a few notes as I was listening to the brothers and then the situation with the board, you know, the board, the thoughts and then the information we related about Minneapolis and then also, as I've understood, that our congregation has some effect. It did bring back memories of the heresy

When I was about 17 or so, and there was a, you know, during that heresy time, I didn't bring memories, and I just, I got to thinking and add to it or whatever. Do you have any words to add?

Thinking of, I understood from the board member, before I got ready, after the meeting, the gospel was preached, but things still weren't resolved. You know, that happiness wasn't restored. And I've understood that sometimes the gospel, the grace of the gospel is preached, and we believe

Well, there is this lack of humility, feeling of wondering, such a bit of despairing that sometimes, although the gospel is preached, if there's something left, it seems that we need to pray to the Heavenly Father that he would

That there must be a root, and pray to the Heavenly Father that the root could be uncovered. And when the root is uncovered, then the entirety of the Gospel and race can be restored. And God's time might not be our time,

And we need to continue to love and patience and trust in God. Again, I think of the root. Sometimes the root might need to be uncovered and God is the only one who can do that.

The Spirit is speaking. All I can say is for myself, the discussions that I've had with believers, when the Spirit is correct, there's this peace of God in my heart. It's not anything that is man, given man's ability, but such that God is

In my heart, because I've had plenty of discussions about faith and Christianity and how I believe with people that are outside God's kingdom, and I walk away from that not having a unified spirit with them. But when I have discussions with believers and can walk away with that, with my spirit saying amen, that peace of God,

Something that God has given, not anything that I've done.

There's a question. Oh, looks like it's not on. There's a...

I don't know whether we've heard the voice of the Holy Spirit. And when we've heard something spoken or preached, we often hear this characterization that they didn't say amen, they did agree, they did bring peace.

It is not added or taken away from God's word. It hasn't added or taken away from the experience of the endeavor. But it has brought peace. When Jesus gave his example there of the nature of the sheepfold, he said when the sheep don't

That voice that is foreign and they don't understand. And they aren't expected to prove that that isn't the voice of the world.

The voice of the Holy Spirit says Amen when it brings peace and hasn't left a need for defenses, hasn't left a need for that kind of work of the flesh.

As I've said and shared with several in this time, we have never been able to debate someone into God's kingdom. One is drawn into, called into God's kingdom and is heard, that call is heard in the confession of our faith, and then it's God's doing.

Many messengers of the Gospel of God's Kingdom. But also when the Apostle wrote there to the Corinthians, he felt necessary to speak very clearly that if there are those who confess and say they are believers in God's Kingdom, but the fruits are not there, it's our responsibility and duty to care for such ones in love.

Here and again we open to see their situation. What happens when there comes these kind of defenses that ask for a proof beyond a reasonable doubt is a manifestation of pride

Dear brothers and sisters, this is not something that is self-evident to you or I, if such as our stumbling block. It doesn't mean we're no less or no more as an individual.

Sheep in the sheepfold, hearing the voice of the Good Shepherd, not feeling compelled to have to defend the work of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the work of what the Spirit has taught in its day and its time.

Since the microphone's over here, I thought I would take a short turn and just kind of share my experience when we have been discussing these matters of faith. You know, in the many discussions that we had and I've had with other individuals over the time, I've always felt that when we confess our faith,

When we look inward to how we believe and confess our faith to each other, that we have that spirit says amen. But when we look to others and at the faith of others,

And start trying to discern how others might be believing. It seems at that point that we start to fall apart, that we don't feel that unity when we look at others. But when we discuss our own with each other, we do feel that unity. As I have often felt that unity when we confess our faith,

When we said how each one of us believes that Jesus died for our sins, that there's no merit work that we do on this journey to gain salvation, but it's just that merit work of Christ that we, through faith, can continue to believe. And it is a very simple message.

And I thought of that simple message that it is that we have here. And it's often been said, very true, that it's such a simple message that the youngest child, and even those without

Those, especially brothers and sisters who have studied, who can look at the Bible and almost parse each word and what each word in the Bible means. It's so simple that they too can believe it. That we should not be afraid of the Word of God. We should not be afraid of what it speaks to us.

That message to us becomes very clear that we can continue to believe. We can keep that focus on the heavenly shore and not look around to find fault in others. As Susan said, we do approach others that have fallen and truly we would want to approach those as weak

So, in this is a very simple message. Coming back to this idea, it is a simple message. It's a simple message for the youngest child. It's a simple message for each one of us. It's a simple message for those who believe, even if they've just really studied

We have to keep it this way, that we don't allow division to occur. You know, what I have felt restless in faith is when it has been preached of the division in the congregation. That scatters the sheepfold. The unity of faith

Will be revealed if we sit and wonder what the issues are. God will reveal them to us.

We need to remember that God will preserve us. Man will not preserve us. Man will scatter the sheep, but God will preserve us.

I told myself I was going to come here and listen, but the question of how do you believe, how do we believe?

And if I'm wrong, I'll be corrected. Many times over the years, I've had a wrong understanding on some different things, and I've sat there and had to make a decision. Am I gonna fight it, or am I gonna just try to accept it? And thankfully,

I've always been able to fight the urge to fight it and listen and just obey even though I don't understand. The feeling of peace in the congregation, we were just up in men's camp. Men's camp, it was like heaven on earth.

Being there and discussing maybe even deeper or different stories and not having any fear of being listened to from behind my back and then getting into a multi-hour discussion about it later and almost having a feeling like I'm defending my position

Discussions, it's defending your faith almost instead of discussing faith. It's good to discuss faith. It's good to be, it seems like in the first five, 10 minutes, you can tell if there's peace in this conversation. And you can talk sometimes for three hours and not come together with that peace.

There is so many different things. I mean, it seems like so long since we've had this discussion since the last one we had as a congregation. I don't even, my memory's not good enough to know what we were talking about at the time, so I can just talk about what I'm feeling today. This

When we got married, we were given the Bible. We were told not to let the dust gather on its cover to read the Bible. But when you read the Bible, the Holy Spirit will not be found in the Bible. If you are reading the Bible through the prism, through the Holy Spirit,

All the answers are in there, but there's almost this thought that the Bible is somehow above everything. And it's not. Through the Holy Spirit, everything is there. So that's just one of the things that's on my mind right now that I'm thinking of.

I'm not a sheep as much as the actual wolf that is in the room. And you cannot, I don't think you can deny the fact that there is a wolf in the room for fear of, I'm not sure why not. You do have to look in your own heart, I know that, and you can't go and start chasing spirits.

I want to know what's in, I want to believe. A week, very week, that Bible class we had last week was very, very, very good that I was here. It was talking about the manna and the manna that I needed every day is provided.

I have a question. Is it not correct and is it wrong that a board of speakers would visit around concerns of air in Zion or even concerns that are close around us? How do you visit? I agree with Dana that yes, when we do visit,

And we can't, if we are going and trying to tell someone else how they believe that is incorrect. And I also have experienced when speaking of concerns of our day, it has brought me fear. Not because of I fear talking about it has created scatter, but

Because I know it's so close and I can fall into that wrong understanding or wrong path. To me, although myself, I feel like who am I to

Tell me if I'm wrong, if it is not a duty of the board and the Speaker Brothers to speak of concerns around us and close to home.

I just want to kind of echo what Franz was saying. Men's camp was a really, really, really good time. I really needed that to be fed there. It was so nice to be there and with the discussions we had and like Franz was saying even afterward, it was so free and everybody, there was no fear of anybody looking at you with a critical eye. Everybody was there to help each other and to be fed by that spirit.

And I think when we look at how we hear the Holy Ghost and we resonate with that spirit, that to me it's always been like a clear chime, a very clear bell being struck when you hear those words spoken by another brother when they confess their faith. And then there's only been one time in the discussion where a brother was speaking

There was something different or off about it. It fell short. That message was muffled or muted somehow. And I think that's one way that we can kind of tell that there's something different there. And like what Derek was asking there, I think that it's not only a duty of

Board members and speakers and ministers, I think it's every brother's keeper, their duty not to search and look around and who's doing what and where and how and why, but to keep their ears open. And when you see a brother falter or have questions, we want to help each other and pick each other up in love and humbleness.

We're not here to out anybody or get them to confess like the dry times, but we want to help them in love and grace and help them keep on that narrow path.

I agree with what's been said with the nerves to Derek's question. We don't want to search out spirits. We don't want to search and look for something. And we serve each other out of humbleness. And how do we serve each other? My understanding is we serve with grace and truth. And that's the equal measure of both. Grace being that love, that gospel.

It helps strengthen our faith. And the truth is that we would speak of sin as sin, in equal measure, so that we can help each other out of love. And as we mentioned earlier, we would first look inside of us and say, serve me, oh God. But that doesn't diminish the responsibility if the Holy Spirit tells us how concerned

We have a responsibility to help each other. Because if it wasn't for each of you, how would I get to heaven?

As we think about the troubling times before us, what happens in my heart is that the prayer of David keeps resounding over and over. Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts.

See if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way of the last.

It's a beautiful matter, saved by faith. And faith teaches me, out of God's grace, to put away sin as it attaches, put away wrong understanding, put away temptations and doubts. Over and over in these times that my wife and I have needed to turn to each other,

And how do we know that we're God's children? I often, so doubtful, wonder all the time why he's still a child in his kingdom. But the Bible says that it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching

When God opens his word to the speaker brother, it comforts me in my own place of worship. Even if it convicts me in my conscience that I have erred in that matter or this one. Yet, it opens to us that we can go to the mercy seat in time to meet and believe ourselves.

And I found comfort even in these doctrinal articles that get published, that even though their understanding oftentimes goes far beyond my own, but many times I've sat there in my chair and tears have come that this answers in my heart and confirms that I've begun faith in that way that had been taught for each life.

The Spirit answers in the heart. It comforts, it brings peace, as has been spoken. And Jesus said the Holy Spirit is a comforter, and it will bring to our remembrance everything that He has said to us. He said, it testifies of me. He said, it doesn't testify of itself, but it glorifies me.

When the Spirit of Truth has come to guide into all truth. God our Creator, Jesus our Redeemer, the Holy Spirit our Sanctifier, the Holy Bible, the Holy Mutual Congregation here on earth are in concert with each other. They are not in conflict.

And when the Spirit opens His Word, the Bible was written according as holy men of God were inspired by the Holy Ghost. And it's unlocked in the same way. We cannot approach God through our minds for a carnal reason. We don't come close to Him that way. But the Spirit opens this way of salvation that's been prepared in Christ Jesus.

And it's felt good in our time that when we can confess how we believe, it's not a complicated matter. God gives different groups in his congregation and they open up the scriptures and they open up matters of faith with those groups that God gave. And the Spirit divides them into his congregation. And the Spirit searches, the Bible says, yea, the deep things of God, and it compares

And they're given for our edification for God's glory. And when we think about the troubling times before us, it's an important matter that we turn to life. Not for our own private interpretation, not in some carnal way to make faith academic, but we turn there for our comfort, for our answers. Because Jesus said, search the scriptures because they are they that testify of me.

And as we think about faith, how do we help each other? When we confess how we believe, it edifies, it strengthens, it encourages that, yes, I believe the same way. And that way, in the discussions, it feels good when we confess our faith. And we want to be watchful in our whole life of faith that we don't veer into self-righteousness and we don't veer into

And that's why we want to stay in sound doctrine. Doctrine's not a complicated thing. It's the teachings of the Lord Jesus. And God can give us a little understanding or a lot. It doesn't matter how great our understanding is. We're not saved by understanding. We're saved by faith.

And so our understanding does need to be correct according to the Holy Bible, according to the Spirit's moves and the mutual kind we share. And in that way, it's good that we read and we study and we discuss with one another. Because Paul wrote to Timothy that, "'Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.'"

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own loss, shall heap to themselves teachers having itching ears, and shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables. We want to stay in sound doctrine in God's kingdom, as the duty of the kindest, the pillar and ground of truth,

Jesus says, thy word is truth, and sanctify them through the Spirit. And so we do want to discuss, in the light of the Holy Bible, how we believe. And when that answers, the Spirit, the Bible, faith, the congregation, they all are in agreement with one another. And when the answers, when they fit and work together, then we know that we're part of this kingdom of God.

I guess just in response to Derek's question, I would say that yes, it is the board's duty as well as I think somebody else said the duty of every believer to discuss matters of faith, whatever they may be. I think what is not the board's duty though would be to discuss

Personal concerns about another believer as a group without following, without that person there.

We're good. We're here for this. I have several thoughts right up to my head, and I'll see if I can put them into words. But one of the things I was thinking about is we're each only individually able to believe for ourselves. And we can't believe for other people. And I've thought about this. I haven't been in conversations or haven't had conversations with people that I haven't felt the spirit.

So for me, a lot of this is just concern because there's things that are out there, but as Dana's mentioned and what people have said too, sometimes talking about divisiveness creates that angst and anxiety and stress that otherwise wouldn't be there.

And part of me, I'm always curious to some of you is, what are the problems? What are people talking about? What's the issue? Because I haven't heard specific issues that I would worry about or wonder about or think that those are problems, except for the fact that I've heard some things here and there. And I don't want to pursue those either because, as other people have said, sometimes you start chasing down spirits and you find them. You can find yourself going down all kinds of rabbit holes.

And so I tend not to chase or pursue those things unless there's something that I see personally. And I think also it's important for us to rebuke each other. I was thinking about when I've approached, when I've fallen into sin or I've

I'm glad somebody approached me and told me and was able to share their concerns and I was able to have those things taken care of.

I was telling this to a coworker. I was talking about how personally, professionally, whatever, my wife shares things with me or tells me I can do something better. Initially, my initial reaction is to push back, but then I'm always glad. It's always something that a day or two later I can reflect upon and take care of things and try to, of course, correct and do the right thing. And I think as believers, it's our...

It's our role and our responsibility is to help each other in that path, and if we see those issues, raise them up and talk about them. And it's also our duty to be humble and to accept that, even though we push back on things, even though we think that it might not be us, it might be somebody else. Like [Franz] said, it takes a while to understand, and I think Mike, over the years, concerns and not understanding about different matters, but...

Sometimes we just have to accept it and hope and pray that we'll be able to understand those things as time comes.

I was thinking about this. It's interesting. It reflects what I'm seeing in business and work. There's a sense of unease or non-unity. We're actually working with an employer right now that we're trying to figure out ways to work that. And there's a sense of non-unity. And it's not necessarily one thing you can put a finger on, but you can tell that there's a difference of

I mean, I think maybe it's a symptom of, there are concerns out there, maybe there's not things we can point pictures at, but they have to be addressed, and they have to be addressed with open honesty, and frankly, we have to discuss those things, otherwise they just continue to linger.

I saw something or read something somewhere where they talk about the elephant in the room where people will not talk about things that are issues, whether it's marriage or life or work. And they become bigger and bigger issues because they're never discussed. And I think it's important for us as believers to discuss those things when they become issues. Not to chase them, but to discuss them and make sure we bring them out in the open so that we can

For my own part, if I'm found wanting or if I'm finding somebody, please approach me and please talk to me because then I can take care of those things. And I think we should ask the same of everybody else. When we see those things, let's talk to people and let's take care of those things so that we can continue to believe and have that same energy.

I hope I can get enough strength to speak what is on my mind. First off, many hard thoughts and prayers have gone off the board of the speakers. It has not been an easy time for you, I'm sure. You can see the weariness. But I think as a whole, as far as the Mother Congregation,

I feel the cry coming, just like a home person. As a mom, your children are hurt. You want to care for them. Sometimes the band-aid isn't good enough. You've got to go in and clean the deep wound, and they hurt. And I think that there are issues that are not being resolved. The next step is to come to the congregation for help. It's part of the church law of Christ.

And as far as those issues in Minneapolis, it's only trickled down into here. That's one thing we can't just ignore. That's part of our other congregation, too. We don't just take care of our own congregation and leave it. That's what happened in Alaska recently. We care for everyone. And as far as any of the positions in church, there's no...

I think in both the far left and far right, there's only one narrow path that leads to heaven. You can fall on the path of sin and corruption, of seeable sins, and there are also paths of self-righteousness. And that's sin too. And I think, from my own personal faith, what more can we ask for, for the simple blessing

Amongst all the trials, everybody knows my trials was just [personal medical details omitted] those are seeable. But I cry and care for the ones that are proud and can't humble themselves to see the beauty of God's kingdom. And I'm full on wild and very

Given such a heavy burden of medical trials, I wouldn't have to worry about anything that was going on in Zion. But the more I hear and can see and feel, it brings so much sorrow. And I'm just praying that God would bring unity. And I can see many that are just traveling in this precious clock.

But the ones that can't see, please, I plead to God that they see the light. There's only one way through salvation is the forgiveness of sin. We're peculiar people. And we shine our light onto the world not by what we know. You can go sit in any church and there's very much knowledge in the Bible. I'm very...

Very little knowledge of the Bible. But when you're able to sing songs of Zion, faith cometh by hearing. And sitting in a church bench, Bible class, camp, believing, visiting us believers, those are where all the joy comes from. That's what brings joy. And that's the peace that we have. Can I have one word?

Good morning.

Here's a couple of things. The fear of man bringeth a snare, but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe. Many seek the ruler's favor, but every man's judgment cometh from the Lord. That's in Proverbs. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Corinthians. If you look through the history of all the provisions, certainly in Laestadianism,

They follow the Holy Spirit and the Bible of Christ. It's that simple. This is not a complicated web, as I've heard, and that sort of thing. I wanted to mention, which this has gone beyond that now, but for instance, this came out of the

Finish statement in 2011. In addition to these phenomena, the following began to appear. This was about the 70s. The diminishment of the conscience of the individual, injurious speech, withholding forgiveness, humiliation of another person is never right, either as physical, mental, or spiritual violence. Now at that time,

Nobody knew what it was. They still don't to this day. When a person is accused of something and told they need to repent, naturally they're going to ask, repent from what? And today, in every case, ministers being pressured to step down or taken down, they've not been told what they are to repent from that I'm aware of.

It is indeed spiritual and mental violence being perpetuated. That mental and spiritual violence resulted then and now in individuals requiring professional therapy, which some are into this day. Today there's been many trips to doctors and emergency rooms and so on.

The point that I'm trying to make is I did call one of your board members regarding Eric and Jenna and had told him that there was definite trips to emergency rooms and that sort of thing. And of course he was very concerned, but at that time that didn't stop.

You know, we go through these periods in the 1980s. The Zion thought we were just as right and in love as today. Finland wrote a whole book on how long that period was. It listed several doctrinal errors. But also, some of that was the point in the 80s that today

Would actually get to the point of being a crime for which people can be prosecuted for. So we don't wanna, you know, if we have differences, it's clear there's differences in design. And it's very, very difficult. Everybody wants to get to hell. And we do have some differences, so it's very, very difficult

But it does come down to basics. Are we going to follow man? Or are we going to follow the Bible, Christ, and Holy Spirit, and God? And that's what we all need to try to come to. Search our hearts. You know, there was a speech in Monticello shortly after Eric's and mine's letter was published.

But when they criticize the LLC, they're criticizing God himself. I'll just take that line out of that speech. This man made it very clear who his God is. It's not the Bible. It's not Christ. It's not the Holy Spirit. And Adam mentioned testing the Spirit.

Let's go to the part that really accelerated these divides. And that was when George [Koivukangas] disinvited Phil Alajoki. Okay? None of that was ever confirmed. There was no facts established. I spoke with George, I got his story. I spoke with Phil, I got his story. Of course they did not match.

The only two that actually know what took place there was George and Phil. Okay, but that was backed up. Now, to me, that would seem like following land. And also, if you test the spirits, we are supposed to go back and establish the facts. That was not done. And that really accelerated this. So,

Again, we all need to search our hearts. As Luther says, where you put your trust, that is your God.

I say here in tremble and fear and weakness to speak up, but so much of what was said is contrary to the way I believe personally. The only thing I can do is speak up and pray that my conscience can be humbled and softened if I believe incorrectly, and I would ask the congregation to speak up and correct me if I am wrong.

I fear only one thing, and that's God. The Old Testament shows many examples of those that have sinned and have not repented and what has happened to them. We can think of the story of Saul. We can think of Solomon. But there's also those in the Old Testament that, when they were approached for their sins,

I had a humble heart and a desire to believe. And maybe they didn't know what was wrong or what they did was wrong, and maybe they did. But myself, I've been in discussions where the ones that I've been with had said that I have a wrong understanding. It could be, but I cannot lean

That's right or wrong, my desire is to be in the center of the kingdom. So I had to ask for my sins forgiven for those unknown weaknesses and doubts.

When we fall into sin, it hurts. When we get rebuked. I can think of many times in my childhood that I did something wrong, and I got rebuked, and it hurt. It was physical, emotional, and spiritual pain. But through the grace of God,

He kept me in the kingdom. And I was able to forgive those sins, get those sins forgiven. When we fall, the truth is a two-edged sword. It hurts. But the grace of God is so strong

It overpowers everything, including those pains. For my many weaknesses and sins, I'd ask that God [forgive] me.

Yeah, there was something that I'd forgotten. You know, if a congregation doesn't want a minister to speak, they absolutely have the right and should call them out. Just wanted to say that.

Sometimes it's hard to bring the speech. I've been pondering many things for the past several weeks and months. And I often thought I should take a note or write this down. And even that didn't feel comfortable to me. But when we approach these meetings, it's good to come here with an open mind and an open heart and to be free.

And even though I personally

The meeting last spring sent out a text that we had asked Eric to rest for the time being. And in light of that, we've had a chance to visit as a board of speakers with Eric and Jenna. And Eric's met with the speakers also, and there have been ongoing discussions and conversations.

I felt Warren's comments troubling to me. I was president at that board member's workshop there in Minnesota, and I know, I don't believe Eric or Warren or either one were present there,

Almost every congregation who were present there. And how that letter written by Warren and [Eric] was very troubling and was not guided by the Holy Spirit. That letter itself caused division and strife. And those messages were very clear and loud, even though some, as he pointed out,

There's still flesh and blood, and sometimes the poor are born weak with words. But even coming from that meeting, those thoughts,

Through these discussions and visiting around these matters, it brings peace and comfort to me knowing that my heart is joyful and

Another reference, when you talk about grace and truth,

But when those things happen, especially in the midwest,

I believe that the board is given the responsibility by the congregation through the Holy Spirit, or by the Holy Spirit through the congregation, I guess would be a better phrase. And the number one duty I feel for the board is soul care for the congregation. And as far as talking about people,

It's to soul care for the congregation that it has to be discussed. Ministers, Bible class teachers, Sunday school teachers, things where it's being taught to the congregation. I think they have to go through that. Now if there's issues personal, I mean if somebody's got concerns and wants to discuss more about me,

My feeling is for sure that the ones who are teaching the congregation, I would hope they would discuss those. I agree with [Franz's] comments there that the board has a responsibility to be a watchman on the walls.

Amongst us and, you know, outside the congregation, and, you know, if there is a, you know, appears to be a small issue, and the more they look at it, that they realize this is a bigger issue, that they would sound the trumpets and warn the congregation that I don't think we should, you know, it's been mentioned here that we shouldn't be chasing them, but there is a duty

Spiritual guidance counselors to direct the congregation, and not in a lordly way, but in a, you know, sound the trumpet if there's a concern. And, you know, I think that's very much one of the, that is the most important role of the board, is to be the watchman and sound trumpets, so.

Yeah, I guess that's something I very much disagree with. I think the church law of Christ is clear in how it's spelled out, and there's no world exception to what that says. If there's concern or offense for another, whether that this group of people can discuss it at will, and that's their duty to discuss it at will,

I guess I just, I know I've talked to one, I know me and Franz have discussed this and I talked to another board member as well who agreed with me that if the board wants to discuss faith, any matter of faith, as with any believer, it's perfectly okay to discuss faith amongst

Each other, the board, the ministers, whoever's there. What I don't think is right is that there's this difference that since it's this group of people that Allison and they can bypass Christ's teaching of the church on Christ. Adam? Yeah, go ahead.

There's never been an instance where the board has examined any individuals, any believers in a critical way. But as we understand in God's kingdom and the different duties that the congregation asks the board to do when we're looking for Bible class teachers and speakers, in those discussions,

Those on the board and the speakers there speak from the heart. And that's a much different matter than Stephanie's bringing up with the Church Law of Christ. The Church Law of Christ is a very precious instruction that we take care of each other. It's soul care.

If we offend someone, we don't go to another person and talk about it. I think we all know that's wrong. It might be tempting to the flesh, but that's sin, and that's what the Bible speaks of. But if we have an offense, we take care of it between that person and that person alone. And if we can't take care of that offense, then we go get more help. But it's the matters of God's kingdom

And a speaker who is serving God's kingdom. These are public positions they're placed into. And what I have seen is a service of love. I can remove myself, but I can say, I can testify, witness from the other brothers on the board and the speakers that have spoken up in our discussions. It hasn't been easy.

I can tell it's been difficult and hard, but those that have spoken have spoken out of love. And it's not been about offenses. It's not been about personal matters. It's been about loving concerns, trying to help in God's kingdom. In the matter that Mark just brought up about the trumpets,

This is according to scripture that, I know it's been said that maybe we just turn to our own personal dealings and we don't help each other. It wasn't necessarily said that way, but that's what it kind of comes across to me. But God's word is clear and it's very, it's quite humbling. Here in Ezekiel, there's just a few verses I'll read.

Whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet and taketh not warning, if the sword come and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet and took not warning, his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning

Let not the trumpet and the people be not warned. If the sword come and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. Are we not our brother's keeper?

[inaudible] say they take care of matters perfectly in their own homes and their own relationships in God's kingdom here. I think that's how we all find ourselves. I can say that I shamefully hang my head with those that are the closest to me and I love the most. I don't care for them the way I wish I would always, but I know still that God

And through weakness, when we speak the truth in love and take care of matters, then we can continue on the journey. That's what's most important. This personal faith, it starts with personal faith, putting away sin. And when matters of the heart are correct, that's most important.

And those aren't disputable things. These aren't things that I can give my opinion and someone else can give theirs. But they're known in God's kingdom. Don't we look around and see and feel that love and joy and peace in God's kingdom? We don't feel that coming from ourselves.

Certainly I don't, but I see it here in God's kingdom in this congregation. Those fruits of faith Jesus taught, you shall know them by their fruits. He was teaching about those false prophets that would come, that could deceive man, that could look just like the sheep. Oh yes, we can be deceived, all of us. We are all weak. We are all nothing.

We only can turn to God for strength and power to protect us from this vicious enemy that's attacking. So to say that there's no battle, to say let's not talk about the concerns and the struggles, does that make that, like you heard it before, does it make that wolf go away? No.

Well, let's help each other. Let's speak from the heart. And it's difficult sometimes to speak and to hear the truth. But if we can do it in love, may we all be saved. And I will say from my heart, too, I serve with much importance and ask that you

Dear brothers and sisters who remember me and all of us on the board, and even now would like to hear my sins forgiven. I guess my quick thought I just had about the board, I don't see the board as man, the board is

I'm doing God's work, and so it's perfect in God's work being done by imperfect servants that even them can fall. But the only way they can be saved even themselves is for us to see something, to speak up, and have matters taken care of even in those ways.

Brothers and sisters in faith, the board is not an entity that guides my life. I don't look to the board for spiritual guidance or a list of do's and don'ts or anything in that way. I look to the board to be the watchman. There was a Bible class that I had done

In the positions that they're in, be it treasury or chairman, vice chairman, whatever position it may be, that God saw the gifts that were needed by the congregation, the congregation voted on them, and that person was put up there. I trust in that. That's God's work. And they're doing God's work. But I think that ship, like Hadi had talked about, I so many times find myself down in the bottom of the ship, rowing away.

At the end of the day, all I can do is pray to God that I'm in the right ship. Because this is where I feel I need to be, is in God's kingdom, in the center of the flock, helping as much as I can in my own small little imperfect way, and hoping that those around me do the same. But if I am outside of God's kingdom in my beliefs,

When Noah built the ark, it was God's work. Noah did not shut the door. God shut the door. And if I was on the outside of the ark, maybe before I would be blind to the light and not see it. But when God shuts the door, there's nothing man can do to open it. It's only through God's grace.

I believe that I am in the Red Kingdom and I again pray that my conscience can be softened if I'm wrong and can be corrected. But I think if we start disseminating the [board] as an entity or saying that the [board] is wrong

And we all need each other. Rita? I just have a couple of...

Things to read here about the watchmen on the wall. God has placed his children to be watchmen on the wall of Zion who will never become silent, so they are Christians who confess and speak about matters of faith with their mouth. And then in the security of the holy name and word,

It is good to be for a watchman on the wall of Zion who feels his weaknesses. Every one of his followers belong to that multitude of the heavenly host. Praising God at the first Christmas night, he himself has placed his watchman on the wall of Zion, each in his own place.

The most important task and duty of the watchman is to watch. Therefore Jesus himself said to his own, what I say unto you I say to everyone. Watch and behold the author and finisher of the faith. And then there's one more here. We can be sure that God will open the seals to the mystery of his word.

Before the voice of the watchman becomes quiet, may it be said that God has not opened these gifts of understanding only to the servants of the Lord, but to all of the members in the congregation, which is the pillar

I don't think it's the duty of the board to seek out individuals and to, you know, berate them or do that. You know, being a watchman doesn't necessarily

And they said, this is probably an issue that we should bring to the congregation and have a discussion. And so that was a congregational discussion. We had one of those two or three discussions around bowling. And the congregation spoke as a whole that that's an activity we probably would be better just to avoid it altogether. Now, that board didn't go and seek

Now look, you need to repent. It was more that there was a lot of people doing this, and is it healthy? It's probably not. Okay, they discussed it, and those people that were partaking in that, they took care of those matters on their own.

You know, now today I don't know if there's many people that are involved in that activity, but it was brought to light that it's best to avoid. Now, you know, to say that the board can't have these discussions, I don't understand that. I don't know of any...

Warning as a whole, and brought to the congregation, they sounded the trumpet. That's what I'm meaning. It's not an individual, it's dangers near and far. Yeah, I agree with that, Mark, 100%. That is, if there's a...

Any type of sin, any type of activity, any matter of faith, the board is free to discuss it, as is any member of the congregation. I can't say I have all knowledge of the Watchman on the Wall. I will say that I've heard and I've thought and agreed with what Rita just said.

We're watchmen for our own faith. We're watchmen for our fellow brothers and sisters in faith. We're each our own watchmen. I don't think there's a, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's an elevated group of watchmen on the wall, specifically named the watchmen on the wall. And to go back to this church law of Christ,

And it says, moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take them with thee, one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church. But if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee.

I understand it could probably be, maybe when you're thinking of putting up speakers or Bible class leaders, I've never been in this discussion on the board level, how, what would happen if a board member had a concern with this person being considered. Is that concern just aired publicly then at the board meeting that, no, I don't think so, and so should be a speaker because

There's this offense between me and him. Or is there this period where maybe the person being considered is informed, or at least the board says this name is being brought to consideration?

And there's a period of time where the board members, they can speak to this brother if they feel there is this offense between, and maybe they're not comfortable with being on the, being a preacher or teaching Bible class or whatever the matter may be. And this would be fine if it is a good opportunity for each board member to go visit with this individual and if there's concerns, and these concerns still linger as

You know, it comes time for the next meeting or whatever, maybe either the person says, okay, I don't want to be considered for this position, or this brother says, okay, I can come to the meeting and we can discuss these concerns with the board. And I know, I'm sure it's, I don't know exactly how it's handled, but...

If when you say that there's concerns over a public speaker, but this concern is not an offense, I guess that's where it confuses me,

If a board member has a concern whether or not this person is a public servant of the congregation or an individual in the congregation, is it not right still for the board to go through these? Any board, a board member, I'm not saying the board, an individual member on the board, if they're concerned with how a minister's preaching, concerned with how a Bible class teacher's teaching, that they still follow this church law of Christ.

Well, I have this concern, I'm on the board, so I'm gonna bring my concern and I'm gonna discuss it amongst the board and just bypass the church law of Christ completely. I guess that, maybe I'm confused, but I don't really see how an individual, based on what position they hold in the congregation, just bypasses this church law of Christ.

Jeff, Jeff in the back. As stated by, I think, Franz earlier, I myself too was going to come here tonight and just try to listen and not take a turn speaking, because one of my, I guess one of my biggest failings is I tend to be a little black and white at times.

But listening to some of the comments here tonight, I wanted to take the mic and echo Amen to some of the comments about, and also maybe even an answer to Eric's earlier, Derek's earlier question about the board's duties. As some people here tonight have stated, I also feel that it is a very, very important duty of the board, if not the most important.

Those board members were put in that position by the congregation through the Holy Spirit to be caretakers of our congregation. If concerns are brought to them that are on an individual basis, I've had a visit with a few of the board members over the last year and I've asked them this point blankly,

They're the ones who come in one-on-one and take care of matters. But if that person is not hearing that rebuke, to gather another believer or another couple of believers, and if they're still not hearing that rebuke, then to bring it all up the line according to church law of Christ. But when it is dealing with a speaker brother or another board member, for that matter, or a teacher or a Bible class leader,

By several church members, and there doesn't seem to be any resolution, then it should be brought forward and discussed with a couple other people, with that person. And if that matter is brought to the board, I think that is an important duty of the board to discuss that, if it's a speaker brother or a teacher or a Bible class leader.

At times for myself I feel like I have been a little out of touch due to the fact not being able to gather with fellow believers. So if some of my

I think as far as the board goes, I forgot to remember, these are people we put in place, as Jeff just mentioned, by the congregation to help us.

And I think we have to be careful not to elevate the board either way. Don't give them so much power that they're crucified for every bad mistake or error that they make because they're just us.

We're on the board. I've been on the board. Everybody else that's on the board is just another believer that happened to be put in that spot by the congregation to help and guide us and do those things that are necessary in our walk of faith. And I think the same thing, and I think I heard Warren talking about past sins of

Board members or LLC, we can't hold ourselves to such a high standard and look at sins in the past and say that those are things that we have to always look for and blame each other for. We're all human, we all care, and we have to be able to forgive each other and move past those things. And like I've heard several people say, we have to discuss these matters

And trust that we're leading the correct way. And even in the individual questions that you have, Seth, on how the board operates, anybody's welcome to join the board meetings unless there's something specific that's being discussed. So I would encourage you to go and

Remember, they're just believers like you and me. They're just trying to help us get there, and that's the way that we put them in this position, is to guide us through those things. And I agree, too, the Watchmen and the Tower, raising the concerns that we have as a general congregation, it's important that we have those people there.

That if I have a concern, I don't have to think about somebody. I can go to the board and I can say I've got a concern, or a general concern, not about an individual, but I feel like things are not going in the right direction. I think we should have a discussion about this work. Guidance, what should I do? You have those people there that we can turn to. And I think we should remember that they're just servants just like the rest of us and not to elevate them in either way. They're not above us in a sense of

We are responsible for decisions like you or I would be.

That being said, I do have a question about how the situation with Eric, and he's been asked to rest as a speaker, and the board has had discussions, and I'm sure he's had discussions with several people as well, but when ministers or preachers are brought, the congregation ratifies that decision. And I think it would be the same way if you would ask somebody to step down versus just rest at the congregation.

I'll do that on the board's recommendation. I'm not clear if there's something that we need to do or if this is just a period of time with that situation or what are the next steps. I guess I'm just not clear. I'll go ahead and address that with a prayerful heart. If any of the other brothers I speak around please, please correct me.

So speaking first to our bylaws, the board does have the authority to ask the speaker to rest and the instruction in the bylaws is very clear. It cannot be for indefinite period. That's the only that the board has. We've had many discussions with Eric and Jenna on the board and speakers.

And Chris mentioned our latest meeting we had together to talk about where do we go next and what do we do. We had a meeting back in February and then after that we met as a board and asked Eric to take a rest. And then we had coronavirus set in and we lost our facility and our ability to have a meeting. So we met as a board and

And the direction that the Holy Spirit led at that meeting was that we would continue speaking on an individual basis if we have concerns with Eric as individuals. And if congregation members came to us as board members, that we would encourage that individual to go speak with Eric directly. And then as we were setting up this meeting,

For October, this topic came up. And the Holy Spirit guided and said that, no, it's more important for us to speak about how we believe as matters of faith in these troubling times. But we also recognize as a board that it is not right either for Eric or the congregation to let this go on indefinitely, and we will need to schedule another meeting. It's just been so many months that we've not been able to gather together

That we wanted to have this meeting first. And so that's my understanding of how we got to where we are now and where we're at. And that's my understanding of the direction the Holy Spirit has given at this point. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

This is on a little bit of a different subject, but Warren had mentioned earlier that when someone approaches someone with a matter, the person would want to know what it is they're repenting from.

I've been around for a while and I want to approach them to see if things are okay. You don't always know what exactly the matter is, but you can just see something or get that feeling something might be different. And when someone approaches another believer of love and there is that unity of spirit, that humbleness that would come with it, the one who's being approached,

They would want to know what is it that I can do, and they would want to seek out counsel and be held on the level of the congregation. And if there was any doubt, whether it be a speaker or anything, that they would want to be carried by the congregation. And if someone is approached that way, and they're demanding facts,

How someone in the right spirit would react with defiance. I remember, I know for myself that when I left faith, there were a lot of people that approached me out of love.

I think it's good for all of us to remember that it's not easy for someone to go to another person and speak of matters. And for me, it's probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do.

I'm just trying to feel alive.

I had a thought to Ryan's question. I thought he had a question about what the board's next steps are and whatever and I don't know a formal way to do this. I'm not a formal person and I don't know the bylaws probably as good as they should but my thought is is that maybe the board and Eric come together to figure out a time that we can do a congregational discussion regarding the past eight months and maybe we have to have some sort of format of what that looks

God truly does love his children. And if we have a desire to believe, he will protect us. So I just would have a thought, again, I don't know the format of ladies, but that we would schedule another night to have a congregational discussion based on the last eight months or so, or whatever it's been, in regards to the concerns of both Du Bois and Eric and other ministers, if there's other problems.

I'm probably shouldn't be taking the mic, but it seems like I've heard Warren's not here anymore, and I can't say that I can say amen to what he spoke. It's leaving me very troubled, but aside from that, maybe Eric can speak.

On the spiritual bullying, it seems I've heard that come up several times now. Was it from the board? Was it from the congregation? You know, the board mentioned it tonight. Is it from the congregation? Maybe, Eric, you could speak to that and tell us what the bullying has been.

Ken? It's always been my understanding that the board certainly can ask a minister to rest. But on the other hand, a minister, when he speaks, he speaks to the entire congregation, and it affects the entire congregation. And I think to remove a speaker is different than asking one to sit. To remove a speaker, it has to be a congregational decision. The congregation put that speaker up to speak, and it's up to the congregation

That is correct according to our bylaws, yes. I'd also say that so far as I guess Eric is the topic of conversation, he certainly can feel free to speak what his matters are as well.

I don't want to keep going back, that's what I just... I know it's a conversation that I've had, and I guess I still don't really know if I'm right or wrong on this, but is it correct

Are there offenses as a group without this individual present? Just based on what, let's just say if it's a speaker or a Bible class puncture, does the board feel that it's correct to speak on these offenses as a group without this other person there?

I'll go ahead and speak my heart out on this matter. I agree with what was said. There's individual offenses. I, the board member, would not feel comfortable speaking about those if there's matters that can be taken care of one-on-one.

I'm just going to go through your points. So that would be an individual offense. If an individual offense came to the board, I would instruct that person, I would ask that person, how has this matter been cared for up to this point, and instruct accordingly. And if there's an opportunity for continued discussion, maybe with help from others, that's what the instructor

I have not been in a situation where people have been brought to the board and say, I'm worried about this person with a list. I have not had that experience. Then with regards to Bible class teachers, what my experience has been is that when a new day

What is their testimony? What are their fruits of faith? How do we know them? Do we know them personally? Sometimes we don't know them personally, and so then there's another board member who does know them personally, and they speak for them. Once or twice there's been concern from a board member or a speaker that this person is struggling right now, and it would be better that they didn't serve, so that name was taken off. So that's the level of detail that my experience has been with regards to Bible class teachers. It's the same when considering

And we speak our Psalms as we know them. What else can we do? We have to at least say something, because to say nothing is to close our mouths, and I don't see how that works. I have been in two situations, and I'll be frank tonight, Eric's situation and one other,

Where a concern was brought to the board and a number of people were spoken to and they were asking the board for help. And we had quite a long discussion in the other situation and just like the one with Eric. Is it even appropriate? There was much fear and trepidation. Do we as a board even have a right to consider this request? Or does it go straight to the congregation?

And in both cases, the spirit revealed that it would be appropriate to consider it. So, we do speak about individuals, but it's in those cases, and it's always with fear and trepidations. So hard to explain, it's like, how do I even have the right to even open my mouth?

They'd have been asked to do something. And it seems so simple. Put that Sunday School list together. And the congregation is trusting. How can that be? It's that miracle. We can be righteous and sinful at the same time. There has to be some trust. That's the Holy Spirit.

I agree with what you mentioned, Keith, and maybe put it a little simpler. In my experience, sitting in the Phoenix and Glendale boards is about speaking about individuals in consideration of

Speakers, or Bible class leaders, or Sunday school teachers, or those things. Like an example, there has been several names brought to the board for consideration as a speaker, and through many meetings, these are always encouraged for the existing

Sometimes there may not be a name come forward, or sometimes there may be one or more. But I think those names are freely and openly discussed, and even though some may be acknowledged of some private matters or issues, but it's not the matter of the issue that's brought up, but just that concern. And so I wouldn't say the...

Ultimate choice or decision to add speakers or remove speakers.

I felt that the board serves the congregation and serves in humbleness and fear and serves from below and not from a position of power or authority. This way.

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, thanks, Phil. Appreciate that. I feel a little bit uncomfortable talking on this specific thing, but I don't want to be right, but I want to be in the right. So I'm taking the turn to say what I feel. I look at this kind of like what's the end goal first?

If the end, not end goal, it's a bad, I shouldn't be talking. What's the end step? In the church law of Christ, it's binding. That's the last step of binding. And those matters that end in binding, 100% agree they have to follow the church law of Christ. There can be no other way. And it's, that text is pretty clear

And what those steps are. And as been said tonight, I think if that's what we're dealing with and it's not dealt with, that is sin if you do it improperly. But then there's other matters where it's not necessarily gonna end in binding.

Another word you can think is whether one serves or not doesn't necessarily end in . If you ask someone not to serve, they're not bound. So then, does the church law of Christ have to be followed? And I know the instruction has been that what wrong could there be by following the church law of Christ?

I wouldn't disagree with that, but the one text that comes to mind is in Corinthians. It says, Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in one particular. And God has set some in the church. And this is why I feel uncomfortable, because I don't know, I don't want to be the one justifying me as a board member.

I said I don't want to be the right, I don't want to be the one instructing, but I want to be in the right, I want to be instructed. So it's been good for me to be here tonight to listen and it's what I needed for my, what's been asked of me to serve

Just from the speaker's perspective, I see the board members as humbly serving the congregation, and most importantly, God. And they may not have all the best words, or maybe not all have the softest voices, but underlying it is love.

It's for holding church services and holding, you know, to make sure that we continue to have all functions of the church, but it's for preserving faith in the oldest and the youngest. And sometimes the processes that they use are now

And it's been a joy to hear them speak openly. Some are quiet and reserved. And when they speak, you can hear it's a tender heart. They want to get to heaven. We all want to get to heaven. We don't want to see anyone lost, especially our own children.

And that's why we have services. That's why we have these congregation discussions. It is, like you guys mentioned, that it's the Holy Spirit that got us. And when the congregation, all these months have been gone by, we haven't had any congregational discussions. It was evident many have brought to the board that, if you want to have, there's still discussions. And God has allowed that. Thank you.

May these continue to go on. And I hope that my own pardon, weaknesses, and especially my own sins can be healed with that gospel. If there are concerns with your brothers and sisters, you may roll with my own speech or blackmail.

All the ways of saying things are especially, they help you have a forgiving heart and hear that message. But if there are things, really come visit. And if you don't have that power, but come and just tell the board and I'd be happy to listen to the board as well. I know they don't want to have to

I found this discussion interesting and informative, and I would like to hear the gospel. The comment that you made, Keith, a few minutes ago struck a chord in me. It brought to mind a conversation we had

On the Phoenix board a number of years ago already when there were issues that individuals were bringing to board members to bring to the board to discuss. And the board had a discussion regarding that. And at that time the board felt that it is not right for the board to speak about individual matters. Instead the instruction was to the board members that if somebody approaches you about a matter

The proper thing to do according to the church law of Christ is to instruct that individual to speak with the individual about whom they have concern. And if they are uncomfortable doing it alone, to offer to visit that person

That's the proper way to avoid gossip. That's the proper way to avoid wrong feelings and wrong understandings. When somebody brings a matter to you or to me or to any other person other than the person about whom the concern is, all we can look at it as is gossip because we don't know the truth of the matter. If we run with what that person says, we're going off one side of this story

And admittedly, every one of us has a human nature that wants to put the worst construction on what our brother or sister does. It's wrong for us to bypass the church law of Christ, and I have to rebuke you for that.

That reminded me of a conversation I had with a coworker. We were talking about another person that we worked with, and we were commenting about how there's a spirit of the question. We may not have the right words,

And we may not ask it correctly, but the spirit is there. And I'm sure we've all had this conversation, maybe with our kids, maybe with somebody else, and I think even the legal profession really likes to really get to the heart of, okay, the words you use mean this versus what the spirit of the question was. And I think that just reminded me,

It encourages me to speak because maybe I don't have the right words, but I think all of us, if we have the right spirit, and with other believers and other congregation members, I think I felt comfortable throughout my life asking questions and speaking up because the spirit was there. I didn't feel like if I said something wrong, I was going to be attacked. The love was there, and I think that we all remember that if we have the right spirit and the right intent,

You don't have to worry so much about whether or not the words are perfect.

It's been good to be here and hear the different comments and just listen. And it's, you can hear different thoughts going through everyone's mind and it's, speaking on this, the board talking,

We're discussing certain individuals even. And I think that it's kind of gotten, if I am understanding Stefan correctly, he's saying that there's absolutely no time ever that you should talk about somebody behind, you know, with others without that person being there.

Members of the Glendale Board, I believe that they are serving humbly and serving correctly and serving with that loving heart. And if I also understand it correctly, even in the instance that Stefan, I think, is referring to with Eric, that

The board has spoken directly with Eric in presence, which is good. We always want to do that, and that is part of the church law of Christ. There comes a time, though, when perhaps they have spoken with Eric, or it could be anyone, and things don't get resolved

And things don't get resolved, and you have some more speaking and talking with that person there present, and they still don't get resolved. Well, I think the board has every freedom and obligation as well to then say amongst themselves, okay, so now what do we do about what we've been talking about with this person and this person present?

And this person obviously is not going to be present now. They are discussing, okay, so we're not having a resolution. But this is a public matter. This is, we're talking about someone who is preaching. And what do we do? And then they obviously, like I said, they should be able to have that whole freedom to talk amongst themselves because

Many times the Holy Spirit reveals himself, or reveals an answer, not from one person individually, but collectively from a group. And someone may say something in that group, and someone else may say something in the group, and that triggers something else, and it's all directed by the Holy Spirit. And then they say, okay, well, I'm glad we had this discussion, and let's bring that person back in.

And say, so now this is what we've discussed, and this is where we're at. And I think that's the way that it should be, and I think that's the way it has been. And I don't see any other way that it can be. And it goes with, as Keith mentioned,

It's our prayer that the Holy Spirit would then guide us, as a congregation even, what's the next step. And we look to the board members to help us in doing that, and the Holy Spirit has guided in the congregation, and we do look to see what the next step is. I don't think it's right just to keep using one excuse or another

You know, it's hard to meet, it's hard to do this, but I do think it needs to be addressed, and it's only fair that it's addressed fairly soon, I think, you know, that we can't just keep putting it off. But it is also my prayer that, you know, I listened to the board members here tonight, and my heart rejoices in their speeches of humbly serving

And their concern and their love for the congregation. And it is my prayer that we remember each one of these board members in prayer. It is also my prayer and I pray that we remember each one of our ministers

And that they would be given understanding and strength to deal with. There's so many issues and many are being lambasted by this question and that question. And we pray that they would be given strength to continue on with this job that they've been given. Not an easy job. And it's also my prayer that we would all remember Eric

In prayer. This is a very tough time and that the Holy Spirit would reveal even to Eric and those who, you know, that questions could be answered according to God's will.

And I pray that you would remember me and my family in this time of spiritual troubles and warfare as we see it coming and that we could all, each one of us, make it to heaven. And I'd like to hear that gospel as well. Can you forgive me all of my sins?

Going back to your question originally, or early on in the discussion, Keith, how do we know when the Spirit speaks? I think Phil touched on this first.

We shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. Not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. So I guess that, I think that those verses speak to both your question and also to echo maybe Steve's thoughts earlier that

This peace that we experience is this peace of God. And it's not this temporal peace that the world gives, but it's this much deeper peace that we are children of God. And when we look at the verse of what the Comforter does, it says, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you.

Paul, as John Steros mentioned, that God's Word says we know in part and we prophesy in part. That's why we have the congregation to help us in this way. A couple thoughts. As I was listening, I just jotted down some notes, so that's why I'm looking at my phone here. When Franz mentioned the Bible is the highest authority,

Touch on that, that the congregation shall consist of members who confess that living faith, which is found on the holy word of God in the books of the Old and New Testaments, which is the only rule according to which all doctrine in the congregation is to be examined and judged. And I know this is our bylaws, and it's not out of the Bible, but it's very biblical. God's congregation is based on the word of God. As we heard tonight, the congregation is the

And we know that the congregation is built on a rock, which is Christ, which is the Word of God. We know in the, it says, I think it's in one of the epistles to John that it says, the Father, the Word, and His Holy Ghost, these three are one. And this is that Triune God that we, as believers,

To answer my thoughts on the question, is it okay for the board to speak of matters in Zion or close to home? Again, I think the bylaws speak to that. Trustees shall serve and hold office as provided by these bylaws and shall assist pastors and preachers in their oversight of the spiritual affairs of the congregation.

Maybe it came all wrong the first time he said that. The board is there to direct the congregation. And I would say that's flipped around. The congregation directs the board. And of course the board is sometimes privy to information that they bring to the congregation. But the congregation is what guides and instructs and where the teaching comes from. It's not from the board. It's from God's word and through the congregation.

Spiritual, soul care on the board level. It is important that, as was mentioned, that if a matter is brought to a board member, that that board member turns and brings it back to, or tells that person to bring it back directly to that person.

That's what God's Word teaches, and the board is not in any way above the Word of God and its teachings, and it's there for us as individuals, it's there for the board, it's there for the speakers, it's there for all of God's children, as I heard, for reproof, rebuke, instruction, and righteousness, and all.

As far as Jenny's question about the spiritual bullying, I guess I think that would be a better question to ask Warren. I typically haven't, or I don't know that I've ever used that word, spiritual bullying. But I think it touches on all of this, I guess these matters that are happening in Zion, and so I think it'd be

So many different things. I know one of the challenges we've had as a congregation, and as far as me speaking, I'm okay with whatever the congregation wants. I guess I put it boldly that I didn't ask for the position, I didn't want the position

I serve the children, or the sheep, with the word of God. But it's also been, in some ways, a blessing to force me to turn to God's word. In some ways, obviously, I'm not forced to do anything, but in that way, it's been very, very nice. But I'm okay with whatever the congregation, if they want me to continue speaking, I'm okay speaking. And I shared this with the board. I believe I shared it with the congregation, I don't recall for sure.

I'm okay with that, too. The struggle I've had, and I don't know, maybe the word has gotten out that the board has attempted to schedule a congregation meeting with me personally recently, and I turned it down, and that might be shocking, and it was shocking to me, too, but the reason I turned it down is I asked the matter, is it a matter of me speaking, and they said, no, it's a caretaking meeting.

And when I asked what a caretaking meeting, what, you know, when we have a caretaking meeting and we bring it to the congregation, it's the third step of the church law of Christ that I've really struggled. And this is where it's been the most difficult for me is

Many, many in the congregation that have come to him with concerns. And I don't want to be left in the spot with the concerns. And recently I've had a couple of visits and I've been very thankful for those. And I hope visits can continue, as Keith mentioned, that the instructions was to go and visit directly one-on-one with me first or in small groups. And I was thankful for that.

I guess overjoyed when we can visit around matters of faith, even if there's differences. I think that's good that we can be open and free. And I don't want anyone to feel intimidated to come visit with me. I more than welcome people

As far as that goes, I don't know if I've made it clear, but I think when we have two different matters, when there's great concerns over me, then God's word speaks very clearly on what the right approach is. As we heard, the church law of Christ, go and tell him his fault and to leave him alone. And if he does not hear thee,

Turn and take one or two more so that every word may be established. And if he still does not hear the, bring it to the church. And if he's at that point, or yeah, if at that point does not hear the, let him be as a heathen and a publican. And so it's, the instructions are very clear that we have to bring the fault

Then you bring it to the board and the board facilitates that meeting. And so I guess those are my rambling thoughts. And I do believe that the board, I always alluded to that the board is serving in the right heart and that they want to do the right thing. And I don't disagree with that. I do believe the board is wanting to do the right thing.

My thoughts are is even if, you know, if it's according to God's word and it's correct, it's correct. But if it's wrong, it's still wrong, even if they are doing the wrong thing. And I'm not insinuating anything here, but I'm just, I think it's important that when we discuss this matter of soul care that it is very important that the board is not above the teaching of God's word.

Peace, everyone. I'm going back to [Eric Skoog's] comment earlier. And I was listening to him, I was agreeing with him, and then when he was reputing Keith, I was thrown off because earlier I was agreeing with Keith. And I don't see the

I understood first that the Keith said that the board doesn't talk about the matters, like if somebody approaches the board about individual matters or whatnot, they don't talk about it, they say, go and talk to that person. So, I don't know. And then, as far as [Eric Lahti's] situation,

All the details, I know that when that letter came out, that caused a confusion and that was clearly division. There was people that believed that that was a really good letter and it was good to publish it and write it. And then there were those that, and majority were those,

And did not agree with some things in that letter. And what my understanding is that it was a public meeting where Eric said that he agreed with that.

And what makes it difficult, I think, is that the things that were talked about in that letter are such that it's kind of difficult to put your finger on it, like what it is, yet there is something that's different. And so, and overall,

Well, Eric said that he finds it difficult because if people are worried about you, but they don't come and talk to you, maybe it's because they cannot put their finger on it. But the only reason I've been praying on your behalf is because of that meeting. But I heard that you agreed with the letter, and the congregation, the majority of the congregation, did not agree with the letter. Anyway, so...

When I came here tonight and sat down, I had three words in my head, and they were peace, freedom, and joy. And those are the feelings that I have felt so often here in this building when I've been surrounded with you. And my prayer was that during this meeting,

And when I think about the role of the board, if someone is worried about me, I pray that they come and talk to me.

Know that, like, if I have been believing a certain way and previously I've been believing the same way as you, and now you hear the different voice or message or thoughts, go and talk to those that I used to agree with and talk with them. And especially if that worry

Because I was thinking earlier, like somebody was saying when they went to the board members, our board meeting, and they left home, even though the gospel was preached, their heart was heavy. And there's two kinds of heaviness that I have experienced previously. It can be a sorrow. It can be uneasiness.

It was that there was an argument and I'm praying that whatever was discussed and taken care of will be resolved. And often that happens when I have arguments with my sisters or something, like I'm suddenly disagreed

I can be happy about it, that things are taken care of, but yet I can feel sorrow and my heart is heavy. But then there's also a spiritual uneasiness that I've also experienced situations where gospel has been preached, but I don't feel like it changed anything. So

So if you feel like that there is worry about me, then go and talk to those that believe the same way as you do and the way I used to believe. And ask the congregation's help. Come and talk to me. And whether that group that talks about me

To me, it doesn't matter if it's a board talking about me or some ladies talking about others. But what matters is that if you're concerned about me and you talk with others and you agree, then come and talk to me. But when there's a concern about minister,

Was either publicly, either in services or in meeting, said something. I think it's just only natural that both talks about it. And, or anybody in a teaching position. Because I think it's important that those that are the teachers enjoy

There is a unity. And I was thinking about when Israelites were on their wilderness journey. There was, in the beginning, if I remember right, there was, Moses was the only one who was solving all the problems. And

So many problems that he was really burdened out because everybody came to him to talk about it. So then they formed a council that there were, I don't remember how many people were on that, but they were the ones that talked about the matters. People went and asked advice if there's something between the couples or sisters or brothers. So they went and talked to the council and that way I think

Our board is kind of like that kind of council. And I don't think it's about the argument that matters. It's

And then there's a Bible portion, 2 Corinthians 9, 3-5. Of course, we are living in the flesh, but we do not fight the fleshly way. This is according to New International Translation. But the weapons of our warfare are not those of the flesh. Instead, they have the power of God to demand

The Amalis fortresses. We turn down arguments and every proud obstacle that is traced against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive in order to obey Christ. What happened in Minnesota

These past years it's really true. There is a division. And the year has started. And I don't have any of my family living in Minnesota. And in the past I have questioned kind of the seriousness of that matters and situation there. But I think it's a serious matter.

If there is someone who knows that your brothers and sisters are worried about you, take it seriously. Pray that your own flesh would humble, that God's Spirit would be your ruler in your heart. And then other Bible courses that came to mind was

From Ephesians 6, finally be strong in the Lord and his mighty strength. Put on the whole armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the devil's strategies. For our struggle is not against the human opponent, but against rulers, against authorities, against cosmic powers in the dark

Against evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm. So it's not, at the end of the day, it's not the battle between you and the other person, who's right, who's wrong. It's a battle that's inside of you, of your spirit. And it's a battle between the darkness and the light about your soul.

You can sense that battle in you. They can hear it in your words and your actions. They care for your soul and want to stand by the side

But each one of us, we have to have the will to believe. If I don't have will to believe, if I don't want to believe, if I want to stand on my own island and battle and say, I'm wrong, I'm right,

And that's why we need to have that prayer in our heart, that's, Seek me, O Lord, and know my heart. The prayer is a powerful gift. But like someone said, the faith comes by hearing. And I counted it in my head, thinking, it doesn't come about visiting.

So that's why I think the congregation is so important and going to the services is so important. Because through the sermons, it's easier to see and hear throughout the time, like a clear path, what's right.

And what's the right direction?

Let us keep running with endurance, the race set before us. You have forgotten the encouragement that is addressed to you as sons. My son, do not think lightly of the Lord's discipline or give up when you are corrected by him.

And he punishes every son he accepts. What you endure is for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as sons. Is there a son whom his father does not discipline? Now if you're without any discipline in which all sons share, then you are illegitimate and not his sons.

Furthermore, we had early fathers who used to discipline us and we respected them forever. We should even more submit to the Father of our spirits and live, shouldn't we? For a short time, they disciplined us as they thought best.

In his holiness, no discipline seems pleasant at the time but painful. Later on, however, for those who have been trained by it, it produces the harvest of righteousness and peace. Therefore, strengthen your tired arms and your weak knees and make straight paths for your feet so that what is lame

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God, and that no bitter root grows up and causes you trouble, or many of you will become defiled. Okay, I've got, I can't see who's in the back, I'm very bad at the bench, I'm sorry.

The topic of the discussion was unity. While I'm not a Glendale member, but I know we have had Glendale ministers serve us for the last few months. And unity comes from

How can there possibly be unity? One of the

So there are certainly two separate understandings on this matter. And they are different understandings, therefore there cannot be unity until a common understanding is found on this issue among other issues.

It was brought up earlier by Warren Raisanen. Him and Eric Skoog wrote a letter. And on their page five, there's a very brief position that talks about this issue. And it says, this is Eric and Warren's language, the desire to add some of man's work to Christ's righteousness appears to have misled some in our day also.

The issue is private confession. A common phrase is to put sin away. While the phrase itself is harmless, what exactly does it mean? Who is putting and where is away? Further on it says, private confession has become a work to merit

My dad wrote some commentary on this. I'm going to read you a couple of the Bible portions here. Hebrews 12.1.

And it goes, wherefore seeing we also are encompassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us. And in 1 John 1, 8-9 it says, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is

He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And so these words of, words John writes to believers, as we can see from the next chapter, which in the second chapter, 14th verse it goes,

I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known that it is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. John does not write a command in order to earn the righteousness by the works of the law, but a counsel of grace to believers that they would stay

And then further commentary here on this. The phrase, putting sin away, is not only a harmless common phrase, but the Word of God from the Bible, to call it a mere common phrase is almost a blasphemy.

So, I asked Eric Lahti early this year if I heard him right, that he agreed with this letter, and he, correct me if I'm wrong, Eric, but you said that you agreed with it, at least to some degree.

And to which I said in my own weak words that how can you possibly be a minister of the word in this church, in whatever the words I use. That's the idea. Thus, when we don't have unity on situations like this,

Sometimes we hear in sermons, not outright, but we hear kind of in a roundabout manner that we need to have lots of grace. We need to have the just shall live by his faith. We hear that Jesus has forgiven all your sins. You don't need to do anything about it.

How is that different from the faith of the Baptists, who can do any sin, but because they know that they have been saved, that they will go to heaven? Since the discussion was about unity, how can there be unity if there is no unity about

About this putting sin away, I believe that we are, for years and years we've been taught to put sin away. And why is it all of a sudden that this very fundamental issue is questioned? And those who question it are ministers of a congregation. On the same issue, because of,

Those thoughts came to my mind and I went to talk to Phil Huhta on September the 27th, three weeks ago. He spoke here at the Phoenix Church and whatever Phil said was troubling to me. So I asked around several congregation members that was there something wrong? Did something bother you? And many people told me that yes, something

It was exactly that he talked wrong, I would come and talk to him. My spirit just told me that something was wrong. I don't know exactly what it was, but several of us felt something wrong. I'm sorry, I can't tell you exactly what it was wrong. So, and until we can

Until the unity is restored by having a common understanding through the same spirit, the spirit that, it's the Holy Spirit that gives us the common understanding. It doesn't give us two different understandings. That's all. Steve. Mark's after Steve. I just wanted to point something out. I'm kind of just thinking here that

I guess I'm pretty clear on the idea, and I think Phil [Alajoki] mentioned it, and I think, I guess I'm trying to mention this stuff and somehow connect the two, but if our ministers ask to step down, it's not the board or the congregation condemning them in any way, saying that they're a sinner unto death, or anything like that. It's saying that

I'm not saying that this doesn't work, but that the minister's spirit may be troubled. It doesn't mean that they're any better or worse than any other congregant. That's not the point. The point is that this uneasiness or this unrest should be then taken away so the congregation doesn't get brought into an uneasy place, I guess, or that they should leave in some way,

It's some man's interpretation or something. But I guess, to me, it's just, I want to just put out there, at least my understanding is, is that when a minister is asked to rest, there's no way saying that they're any worse or better than anybody else and that they're not a, doesn't speak to the soul that they're gonna, I guess I can't put it into words as well as I was hoping to or something.

I'm not really sure how to address this, but here we've been speaking this evening, and it seems like a lot of discussion has been centered around this Church of Christ. And I can't, because those comments were just made publicly, Tim, I have to rebuke you on that. You've done a harm today.

You've called out individual meetings you've had with other brothers up in front of people without talking to them and bringing two or three others and talking to them again and then bringing it to the church. I do not feel that was appropriate at all, and I actually think that was sin, what you did. I don't think you feel those matters that you've just brought up should have been an appropriate place to bring them up or without informing those people who you've talked about.

I don't know what else to say about that, but I feel like that was not appropriate and wrong for you to do that. The other thought I had this evening that's kind of going through my mind often is where do we look for answers? We have a lot of questions maybe in our own minds. A lot of questions were even arisen tonight

So where can we look for answers? And it's in the word of God is where we look to our answers. When we, I think Franz is the one that brought up that people are elevating the written word above the congregation or some version of that. The word of God is equal to God himself. This trained God in which we all have mutual belief in

And God, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit all work equally as one. And in one of our Sunday School lessons with kids, I found very comforting the explanation in the Sunday School lesson was that how today can we receive guidance? How today can we even hear what God is speaking to us?

We know we look in the Bible, those Old Testament examples, God spoke to Moses, God spoke to those prophets, and in turn they spoke to the people. And Jesus obviously spoke directly to the people. But how today can we hear the Word of God? It's through this written Word that is open through the Holy Spirit, our understanding. This is why the Holy Spirit was given to us, so that today we can still hear and be comforted with the Word of God.

We can pray, pray to God, and he hears our prayers, but we don't have that direct communication like with Jesus. But we do have the words of God that we can look to for answers. And when we look to those, I myself very, don't have, I would just say no understanding, but very, very little understanding

Jesus himself in those examples, those teachings that he's given. Some of them have been related here tonight. Comforting words, that we are little sheep, we are little children, and we have a good shepherd who looks out for us. And the good shepherd is that one who lays down his life for us. So we don't need to, as sheep, worry about, let me just read from John chapter 10.

The Jesus example that he had there, when he says that, and again, he's talking to them, talking in his parable, but he says, I am the good shepherd, the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is a hireling and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth. And the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

This is not the sort of shepherd that we have. We have the sort of good shepherd that places himself between the wolf, between the devil and ourselves. And he gave that ultimate sacrifice for us and laid down his life for us. Why did he do that?

Every day, as sin attaches to ourselves, we can come again and again to that grace table, that mercy seat, and ask for our sins forgiven and receive them forgiven. And in doing so, it preserves us in this endeavor of faith. And we pray that this endeavor of faith will carry us to that last day when Jesus will come again and we can be taken up into heaven as one of those

We live to the strength of our Heavenly Father in Jesus and in doing so we find there lies comfort, there lies the strength in our journey, and there lies that peaceful message that today sins can be forgiven in His name.

And my rebuke, even now, and all my other worries and fears and doubts, I wish to carry that gospel with me. We have a few more comments, and we'll get to those. But before we do that, I would like to ask the congregation, it's 20 to 10 right now, and it's getting late.

People who have made commitments with babysitters and other things like that, yet this is a very, very important time for all of us. So I'll take a few more comments, then I would like to get some feedback from the congregation on where we would like to go with this meeting, a continuation or topics or things like that. So I think some of us next, and then I saw Phil, and then I saw Eric. So that's what I have right now.

Adding to what [Stefan] was saying earlier, I think Keith was saying at first that when there is a suggestion for a new teacher or minister, the board usually talks about that person in a way that you know how they are believing and how they are doing.

If they have some heavy trials or difficulties in their life or they're questioning their faith or having trials with the faith life, then they decide not to ask that person to serve. And I don't think it's any difference. When ministers ask not to serve because of some concerns and difficulties and concerns and stress and worries, it's not any difference.

Two that are not asking someone to serve from the start. So my dad used to always say, oh, just go and confess my faith. And if you confess your faith in front of the congregation, it either feeds the flock or it can cause concern of your soul

Hopefully my [battery's] not dead anyway. Sounds like we can work. Somebody get him another mic? Test. Oh, he's good.

You prepare and try to study. You don't want to overdo it or neglect it. And then you speak. And it always feels that we serve in such weakness, it's hard to even bring forth God's word in the full word.

My sermons are with weak words, and if there's anything lacking or missing or weak in them, that is mine. And if there's anything good in it, that is God's. And when we serve in God's kingdom, we serve unto the edification of his congregation in the glory of God.

And it's not, we don't want to become, put the emphasis on all important confession. Then we can begin to make it work.

The ways of God which bring us salvation have appeared to all men.

Any man, even an angel from heaven,

And it is this that when the preacher preaches in accordance with God's word and we don't know what's wrong with it, the fault could indeed be

I want to make it to heaven. I don't want to go down a road of permission. Nor do I want to lead anyone in this congregation down a road of permission. We want to speak the word in grace and in truth.

We need to look into our own heart and see how we become self-righteous. Are we battling something? But nor do we want to start preaching grace without preaching sin of sin. We certainly preach of sin in that which is contrary.

But I do want to take care of my own weak words and my own weak understanding and ask that, can I believe my own sins? Eric? Before he goes, I would like to hear the blessing for my very weak words. I'm the worst when it comes to

May I have my seats, please? Eric. Could somebody get Eric a microphone, please? No, just kidding. Getting along for my runner there. Thank you. I wanted to touch on a few more comments. I know one of them I missed earlier was

I guess I don't know that it's appropriate. I don't feel like it's right to bring forth some of the matters right now because I think they're still being discussed. I'd be happy to. I mean, sure, I'm not trying to hide anything, but I think if the matter is my fault, I have no problem bringing it here. If it's the matter of the other person that has brought it, if they have the wrong understanding, then I don't think it's right to bring it here.

As far as this topic of how we're justified, I guess I want to echo Phil's thoughts. I would agree that we are justified by faith alone, and that's very biblical, and that's one of the main tenets of the Reformation of Luther, was that we are justified alone by faith, alone by grace, alone by the miracles of Christ.

It says, therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And so I agree that we are justified only by faith. And I often think of this text of the whole armor of God

When we talk about how we're justified, that it does talk of all those other pieces that help us on this way. Wherefore, take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel.

So we hear many of the pieces or tools or armor that God gives us.

The helmet of salvation. We have our offensive weapon, the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. And we have that shield of faith to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked in the truth, in the breastplate of righteousness. They all help us keep our faith. And if we choose to neglect or to diminish or

We could even say we likely would lose our faith if we diminished any of those because those are God's armor that he has given to us. And then I also wanted to touch on one more, or a couple more thoughts on the position that I agree that it's, if I'm not speaking, I have no question that it's, to me it's not a,

I guess I'm not, I just want to make it clear, I'm not battling to keep the position. Like I said, I didn't ask for it. I don't feel like I've ever been good at it. I stammer and I stutter and I mumble and jumble. But it has always been my prayer that when I have been

And would serve the congregation as they have asked. And then I have that prayer that I would do so according to God's word and to the truth and I would not stray because it is a very scary position in some ways that what if I lead the congregation astray but at the same time

I've been able to confess my faith in front of the congregation so many times and that I have had great comfort in that, that if I do speak incorrectly that someone would come and

And tied into, I made a comment too that I'm not insinuating in any way that the board has done the wrong thing earlier. And after I left the mic out, so I don't know if that was a little bit disingenuous of me, I did share at that last meeting that in February that I do feel there's certain things that have been done incorrectly and I do

I still have that thought that the board is wanting to do the right thing, and I don't doubt that, and I don't want that process to get in the way, but I also don't want to be incorrect in my thoughts that I do feel that there's been wrong actions, but those actions, and I have forgiven the board for that, and so I don't want to be disingenuous,

If I do feel something is wrong, I have a duty to say that. And I do want to ask once again that if you as a congregation could remember me also that I would like to hear that gospel again. Reminiscence.

Mark's comment about speaking about the service, I've struggled with that in the past.

I understand that and I believe it and when I come to church I pray, I don't every Sunday,

I've had many discussions with sermons that have been very comforting. I've had sermons that I've been unsettled by.

Like that servant said at whatever time, I gotta remember that, those kind of thoughts. There's times when I wasn't comfortable and we're discussing that and there's things. In discussing with people, it's also searching, I think if you're discussing and trying to

I understand that incorrectly, and many times I've gone and talked to ministers after sermons that I've not understood. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think that's actually, it's a good thing to discuss God's word. It does, there is a lot what's in the heart, obviously,

So does anybody have any thoughts on the next meeting we could have or winding this one down or keep it going for another two hours? I'd like to hear some feedback on that too.

I did hear from a few congregation members that it would be good if the board could schedule a specific meeting to discuss Eric speaking. So I think that would be a good point to start a discussion about how we proceed from here. We have a lot of doctrinal topics on the table. Those are also good. They may or may not be together.

Arvind, thank you. Lunch has been spoken this evening already. I would probably not be speaking out of turn if I said on behalf of everything that

What has come clear this evening is this timeless and important instruction to visit one with another. Dear brothers and sisters, I know our time and our day is busy. I am first to admit that I am selfish with my free time, because it's scarce.

Lay aside the worries of this life and the matters of our day to discuss what is most important. Some of you have, perhaps some of you have not, but I have had this feeling that it does not hurt to continue to visit.

Those who spoke wrong may speak right. And that love and unity of faith and understanding and unity in the endeavor returns. So it feels good this evening that that exhortation goes again that we visit

It is also necessary that we as a congregation

It's very concerning in what capacity or exercise the congregation can be brought to discussion at some point.

Place those. Any other thoughts or comments? Ken?

I don't remember what I said earlier either, but it is my feeling that Eric has been talked to many times by the board and possibly these individuals. I do feel myself that it is time to have a congregational meeting, although I'm not a member of this congregation, but to discuss these matters and find out what direction to go.

I also feel that there should be a follow-up meeting and have that as a duly called meeting and through the proper bylaws and all that. I also think the creed should be a topic of discussion in the future. I know that that's a huge topic that could probably cover a weekend, but I think that's pretty...

That few short words mean so much. Okay, one last call for any closing thoughts.

I just wanted to say that I really liked how Phil Alajoki put that answer on how the board or how you personally approach the church law of Christ. I agree that there's a matter of serving and there's a matter of

There's so many two separate matters. It could be whether or not somebody serves. There's so many reasons that could just be completely unrelated to spiritual matters. So as far as going forward, I think it needs to be clear is are we gonna have a discussion about is Eric gonna serve as a congregation or is it a spiritual soul care meeting?

Binding the congregation, binding someone in their matters. When I think of the church law of Christ, I guess I think of it in a couple different ways. On one hand, you have the, you could say, the matters of sin, or you could say, whether it's dealing with adultery or something like that, and you approach somebody that offended you, and either they see it and they see they're wrong or they don't.

If somebody clearly, let's say somebody clearly admits to living in adultery, you tell them it's sin, they say, maybe they, let's say they acknowledge it's sin, they say, yeah, I know adultery is sin, but I'm gonna live, I'm gonna live in sin because I'm a believer, I live under grace, I can do whatever I want. We know that's contrary to God's word, and when it says in the Bible that if you willfully sin, you have, I'm like,

I don't know exactly the verse, how it goes, but if you willfully live in sin, you have no faith. And then you have, and then you have maybe, maybe you think there, when somebody told you, or maybe suspect they committed adultery, you approach them, they say, they say,

I heard this or I suspect this, you're living in adultery and they deny it while at the same time admitting that, yes, of course, adultery is a sin. It's crazy. So whether they are or not living in this sin, let's say tonight we've talked about somebody approaches you and somebody says, well, what's your proof? What's your proof that I'm living

As an individual, you don't have any proof that you're living in adultery. You heard it. They deny it. They acknowledge that it's a sin. Well, in their heart, either they did or they didn't. And in that situation, is it even appropriate to continue on the Church Law of Christ? They acknowledge it's a sin. They deny doing it. So what can you do at that point? Either they are or they're not. It's in their heart, the way they're living their life. And then this third matter,

Is these more spiritual or doctrinal offenses that come up where we've heard, I think, many times today that, well, there's something, my spirit, it doesn't answer to my spirit, but I can't quit, but my finger, I don't know what's, I don't know what it is. I don't know, there's something not right. So in this case, okay,

Like somebody mentioned tonight that on this matter of justification to them, because black and white, that if you believe this way, you believe wrong. It's basically blasphemy. That's a matter, in their heart, their understanding is so clear that they'd be willing to bring it in front of the congregation. And at that point, if the congregation maybe is

This person, the whole congregation agrees that, okay, this matter, this doctrinal matter is understood this way by the congregation. And the person, if they're all alone, whether they're all alone or whether they're... Half the congregation agrees one way and half the congregation agrees the other way. There's going to be a split because there is no unity. There's not going to be two spirits that are not going to live together. They're not going to exist together. But I think it's...

I think it's important for, if somebody's considering bringing a matter, that they're concerned with somebody individually about their

Some doctrine that they believe, whether or not it's contrary to faith, but if it's something that you so strongly believe is contrary to God's word, and you know it, you're willing, there's only two things that are going to happen in a congregation meeting.

When you look at the church law of Christ, I think in the beginning steps it says that if your brother hears you, you have gained your brother and unity is restored. And I think this is the same in the last step.

And if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. And it's also the last step that whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So if this matter is clarified, we'll say this individual sees the error in the way he believes and the congregation at that point would rejoice and that everything would be forgiven

And a brother would be named. But I think the hard part is, and I think it's the most confusing part, is at least there's these congregational meetings and it's not really, I don't want to say that there's been any comments tonight, but what does it mean to be black and white?

But I think when things just get dragged on for years and years and years and years, and there's no, like what Tim [surname unclear] said, in his understanding there's this difference, there's this divide, it's black and white. If one person believes this way, that they're on this side of the aisle, and one person believes that way, that's causing the division.

But it's when we can go round and round, well, there's something there, I don't know what it is, I can't put my finger on it, but we need to keep reading about it, and reading about it, and reading about it, and reading about it, and there's something there, but I can't put my finger on it. It's, at some point, it has to be, there has to be, but I think especially if it's considered in light of the last step of the Church love of Christ, there should be a clear

I think there was a doctrinal difference in how two parties believed. I think that was how it was in the time of Luther when he clearly stated his differences with the Catholic Church and that's what the discussion was surrounded on. Obviously there was a split because it went this way and the Catholics kept their beliefs and that was decided.

Just real quick, I got the mic here, I beat you to it. Just one last thought kind of ties into Stefan's comment here is that

If the congregation decides to go ahead with a meeting to determine whether I speak or not, I'm okay with that. But the part I struggle with is I don't want the care to stop. I know it's happened in other areas where people have been taken down from speaking and then they get left alone, so to speak. And if

It's been very clear. The board has told me several times that this is not a matter of you speaking. This is a caretaking meeting and made it very clear to me that that's what the matter is. Then I don't want it to get left there. I don't want to be, you know, that care to go away if that's truly the matter. And that goes along with Stefan's point that if there is a caretaking meeting, then the right steps

Should we follow it? And it's become very clear to me why that's so important. When it was brought, you know, when I had my discussion with one board member and then another board member, and then some point after that it was brought to the board that they're concerned about me, and then there's

And then later, there was a congregation meeting on how to care for, or how to continue, how to care for Eric, or what does the board do to continue to care for Eric? But I think that the answers are very clear. There was a bylaws that says whether I'm speaking or not, and then the care is very clear in the instructions of the Bible. And so I don't, when I,

And where was I going with that? What I thought was that if the matter is how I believe, then to me that's the most important matter. The matter we're speaking is almost a side matter of this whole thing. And so I don't want it to get left there if there is truly concern. And I think that the matters should be discussed and what the differences are. Mark?

A lot of comments have been made. It feels like people have had the freedom to speak out how they, from their own heart, and that's been good tonight. It seems like freedom has prevailed here this evening. Two different matters. I think we should continue a doctrinal discussion evening. What the topic is, I'm not sure, but it feels

Good and right that we discuss matters of faith, especially in these times. More discussion is good, in my mind. Of course, the Sunday sermons are nice to hear, the work of God, and that's

Leave it at that. That's a separate meeting from, I think, any other issues that might come from doctoral matters or hearing fair. If the desire of the congregation is to have a meeting, whether or not you should speak or not, maybe you can just have a show of hands if that's even a desire of the congregation to have that meeting.

So Mark has made a motion. I would like to at least entertain a few comments with that suggestion of a show of hands, a meeting to discuss whether Eric should be speaking or not. Did I say that correct? Okay. I would request, before you take the vote, if Eric could step out of the sanctuary for that vote. Any other? Chris?

Turning it on. I don't know if the battery's dying, but I've heard pretty clear that the desire is to have that meeting. I haven't heard anybody opposed to it. It takes a show of hands, and that's the choice, but the desire is.

To specifically discuss Eric's serving tonight, obviously the freedom was there, but even to set aside that night to expand on Eric's point even that care for

We had a later meeting in specific to that situation.

So yeah, I just wanted to be clear too that from the board's perspective, I've never heard or seen this discussion turn to personal soul care for Eric. The discussion and concerns came up

And that's the discussion on the board level, whatever happened if Eric wasn't speaking. And I think in our discussions, we've had the discussion about church love of Christ multiple times, and it's been brought out like Bill Willett said that word. There is no intention or step that we look at to bring Eric in a soul care meeting to find him. I think that's very important.

That's much different when we're talking about a servant of the word if there's confusion being spread and trouble of the sheep in God's kingdom. That's been the discussion that I've had.

I also think that, I guess, agree with what Adam said is that

To me, when I suggested that we have a discussion on it, that it was not a binding caretaking discussion. That was not my intent. I don't know that that's necessary, at least from what I heard tonight and from the board. To me, it feels like the discussion would be on Eric and whether he should serve or step down, not a binding caretaking meeting.

I agree with that too. I've never envisioned this to be a binding-type meeting. For me, as a board member, as was mentioned earlier, there's always two people. And I always look at myself and say, I could be wrong in this. I would like to help the congregation.

So those are my two thoughts. I agree. I don't see this as the type of situation where we would bind somebody. It's a cry for help from both speaker and board member to help us build that unity. What are we missing here from this? I was going to say, I think it's very important that we

Keith, he'll look the last thing for a couple hours. And he was talking about how he would like to have discussions with Phoenix and Glendale, combined discussions regarding unity, faith, you know,

This is the Glendale meeting. And I do think that if we're gonna have, something has to happen with, like you said in the bylaws, you can't suspend somebody from speaking forever. Either the minister has to step down himself or the congregation.

One of those things has to happen. So that meeting, I think, would have to be at Glendale, another Glendale meeting.

Those mentioned, oh, Eric. Maybe I'm reading into it, but at least it seems to me I sniff a smell of hypocrisy here. It seems to me that I'm now hearing board members say that there's nothing wrong with Eric, but we should have a meeting regarding whether he speaks. I don't think that's appropriate. You board members have cast aspersions.

Either you've been falsely searching for something that's wrong with somebody with intent to harm him, or there is actually something that's wrong and it needs to be cared for. There is no such thing as there's nothing wrong with a person, but we don't want them to speak. Something is wrong.

To Eric Skoog's point, I don't know if I heard any board members say that there was nothing wrong with Eric. And there is still concern. And because of that concern brought forth from the car events,

To the board, that that's where this is going. So I don't think to say that the board said there's nothing wrong. There is a continuing soul care that needs to continue. And I don't think that part is going to go away in a month. I think this is going to be a long-term discussion and whatnot. And I think the matter of serving now

They said that, you know, they're not kicking him out of the kingdom for, you know, his beliefs. But that's a separate issue if there is an issue that leads to binding. And that's not what the board is asking for assistance on this. They're asking for assistance on whether or not Eric should serve as a speaker brother in Glendale congregation.

And I think that's the next step that the board is requesting. Do we go that way or not? And I think it's been pretty clear that we should have that discussion on whether Eric serves. And we should have continuing discussions on some care. Not just Eric, but the other ministers as well. Okay, Sana and then Eric. Oh, he did? Okay, well then Eric.

I guess to that point I'm left a little confused because Keith has made it very clear to me from the board's perspective that when they've met, when I haven't been there, when times I have been there we've discussed and things have continued on, but then when I haven't been there there's been a request for congregation meetings and Keith has made it very clear to me that this is not a matter of me speaking, it's a caretaker

And then as far as Chris's comment on continuing a congregation discussion on the care for me, I think there's, again, God's Word speaks very clearly on that, that you would, you know, we have the one-on-one visits, which I have had, and then you bring one or two more so that every word may be established, and then we bring it to the congregation.

That's the reason, the very clear reason I told Keith that I wasn't comfortable going to a general caretaking meeting for me, because I didn't feel like it would be edifying for me, the board, or the congregation, and it's contrary to what God's Word teaches, that you wouldn't bring a person in front of the congregation and say, we have some concerns now, let's hear from the congregation what they are. That's just not how

The church law of Christ is very clear that you bring the fault and you don't. And so I guess that's just my thoughts on that. So I can speak to that. So our initial meeting in February was, our hope and prayer was to get some help for both the board and Eric in this matter from the congregation.

And then, as I've asked Eric to attend meetings, Eric has stated it correctly. I have asked it to be, as representing the board, a caretaking meeting for Eric because what we're trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong, but what we're trying to say is, look, we have concerns

And we need help from the congregation, but we didn't want to mix the whole idea of whether he speaks or not into that discussion. But what I heard tonight was that the congregation would like to address that topic directly, whether he serves this congregation or not. So perhaps our hesitancy as a board

To go directly to that step to the congregation, perhaps that is what is causing a little bit of the confusion. But I just want to be forthright with what we've tried to do and where we're trying to go with this whole topic. And it may have muddied the waters. So I just want to lay it all out there. And if I said it completely wrong, brothers, just feel free to chime in. It's fine. John? Sometimes things

Pretty confusing, these kind of issues. He said, she said, we did, they said. I would actually tend to agree with Eric on this one that it does, I don't know how you can have a meeting to discuss whether or not Eric speaks without bringing up or discussing why he wouldn't speak

And you cannot discuss why he wouldn't speak without discussing the differences perhaps in maybe the way he's believing or those other things that we're not privy to that you have discussions on the board that are of concern. I really don't know that it's overly...

I don't know if fair is the word or not to have a congregational discussion slash decision without knowing the facts, basically. So I do think that there,

You can't really separate the two, you know. Does he speak? Well, why doesn't he speak? Does he stay on? Well, why does he, you know, he's this or that or whatever. I mean, and I could be completely off base on this, but it is kind of, I don't know. There is, I think, more to it here than that. Well, my thought was is that if we were going to have this meeting, we would speak directly to all those concerns. That's me. Am I wrong, brother?

The two. And it's a difficult thing for, and even Eric Skoog's worry or allegation there that I can only speak for myself that I've had several one-on-one meetings with Eric and had meetings with others and been in several board meetings and board of speakers

That kind of brings us forward to the meeting. Now, whether we call it a caretaking meeting or a meeting to an open discussion, whatever the particular words or whatever vocabulary you want to use, I think that the consensus is that we want to care for each other and Eric. And I look at other congregations

With concern about their speaker brothers. And a few of the meetings the brothers asked to be relieved of their duties. One meeting recently we came to a vote. So I think that

Eric and the board and UMass board, one of our previous board meetings last month or two that we went around the room and there was unity that all the brothers there spoke that they all thought Eric

We have a meeting, label, whatever you choose, right? I think if we have a meeting with that in mind, both of them will be open and free and let the spirit guide and trust that God will care and His will will be done.

I guess maybe Chris just said what I was going to say. I was so focused on what I was going to say and how I was going to say it that I handled myself. But I guess I'm confused. I just can't wrap my head around all this.

Eric, have you been talked to individually about matters? Yeah. Have you been talked to on a work level? Yeah, about a lot of things. Matters, what we have to do. Maybe that's why I'm here. Would the next step

Should we be following the church law of Christ? Be this right here a congregational discussion. I feel like there's somebody battling, I don't know who, and it's just a feeling I get that somebody's battling that we shouldn't be discussing this because the church law of Christ has not been followed. Does every congregation member need to speak with somebody to do that? I feel like in a minister situation,

It's in a public speaking role. It's not an offense one-on-one. It shouldn't even be a church-wide Christ issue. Eric. Eric.

We have concerns that the board is bringing to the congregation. He said, the board is not comfortable bringing a list of concerns. And to me, that's where I've really, really struggled at. The Church of Christ is very clear on that, that when there is concerns brought forth to the congregation, it's not just, I mean, we're not going to bring Stefan up in front of the congregation and say, okay, we have concerns about Stefan.

I know that's contrary to how God's Word teaches, and so if it's a matter of Church Law of Christ being followed, then the matters should be very clear, and there shouldn't be any hesitancy to say, here are the matters we're bringing forth, here's where we believe differently, because that's ultimately what the Church Law of Christ is for, to help

We help all believers understand what is correct. And if I'm wrong, I want to know that. I'm very comfortable bringing forth those matters to the congregation that here are the matters. But I know as far as the board members that I visit with, I've had very different results. I've had some board members, I've asked them very point blank, is there something I've said personally as a group

And then I've heard other differences, you know, different answers from different board members. I mean, we just heard one from, you know, Chris tonight that was very different. And so then I would say, well, then the matter isn't even clear to the board that how are we bringing it forth to the congregation. And now I'm feeling like I'm defending

Myself, and I don't want to do that, like I said, I'm very comfortable bringing forth the matters of how I believe to the congregation. I have no hesitancy there, it's just, I guess, I don't, maybe I've shared all my thoughts there, but. Candidates on a...

Just one last thing I've got to say is it's very obvious that there's not unity on a lot of these issues. And there needs to be a congregational discussion. If the board's wrong, they need to be told so. If Eric's wrong, he needs to be told so. If the congregation is confused, it needs to be discussed. You know, there's no way around it. And Eric, I believe, is being defensive for whatever reason, I don't know, because I'm not privy to the discussions.

It's so obvious that there has to be a discussion on differences in the congregation. So I kind of feel like the way I grew up was that we don't have a list of sins.

And we don't live according to lists, and when things are taken care of, they are taken care of. But it sounds to me that it would be easier, and according to Eric, it would be correct for you to handle the things that, or would make a list of things. List of things that are different, that came up with the conversation, even if they are already taken care of. I don't know. That's kind of...

I just want to clarify some of Eric's thought there that when we decided to have a meeting, I know Keith, you had discussed with them, but it was reported back to the board that you wanted a list of concerns. That's what was reported to the board, that you wanted a list of these concerns that were to be brought to the congregation.

And we as a board visited about that and thought it would be good to have a congregation just to be open and free and express, free and openly express our concerns, the same concerns that have been expressed in these one-on-one meetings and these board meetings, and bring those to the congregation for some type of resolution or clarity. And for sure, if

If I am wrong or the board is wrong, then we do want to be corrected in the care of the Lutheran congregation. And it wasn't a matter of, we didn't feel comfortable writing a list of concerns,

Can somebody mark the microphone? Thank you. The next discussion we should have is why or for what reason would we take a minister down?

Why would we take a minister down? What would the concerns be that we would take a minister down? If we take ministers down because they sin, we would have no ministers. If we take ministers down for other reasons, then there's a myriad of reasons in my mind why we would take a minister down. I myself personally feel, I have not seen in Eric

Any of those reasons why we would take a minister down just off the top of my head if a minister was preaching that abortion was okay from the pulpit.

That would be cause for concern. That's a specific thing that this minister's teaching incorrectly from the pulpit. So why would we take a minister down? Maybe should be the next discussion before we discuss whether Eric himself should be taken down. Because we can raise concerns at a general level why ministers serve or in what duty do they serve the congregation without addressing Eric himself correctly. Jeff?

Well, I'm just kind of going against my own rule for myself here tonight, but I just wanted to speak to what Ken just said, that it is plainly obvious that we need to have that discussion, and as a congregation with Eric, over any concerns that people may have, and to speak a little bit to what Mark said, that, you know, for specific reasons, to take a speaker down. I don't know that you could list that as well, I think,

Over concerns of him continuing speaking, I think those will become evident through the Holy Spirit as the congregation speaks on them if Eric should continue to speak or not. And if it becomes apparent that the congregation is of a sound mind that he shouldn't continue to speak, then that's the decision we should make at that point in time.

God's Prayer and Jenna and their family and continue to encourage and speak to him if there's issues that need to be spoken on. But to have a meeting to discuss specific reasons to take a speaker down I don't think is necessary. I think what is really necessary, listening to other people speak here tonight, is we need to have that discussion with the congregation and with Eric on whether he should continue to speak or not.

If there is people who have spoken to Eric individually and nothing was resolved, whether they had one, two, or three meetings with him, I think those thoughts will come out in that discussion. But moving forward, I echo what Ken said, that it's become really, really evident that we need to have that meeting. I have a suggestion. So,

So listening to the comments here tonight, what's come to my mind is that what we really need to do is have a discussion about some of these topics that we as board members have concerns about. And I think it's so important that Eric is not put on the defense. It's not like, okay, we're gonna grill Eric tonight. That doesn't feel comfortable to me. What feels comfortable for me is that we're all present

In the congregation to discuss these topics and encourage everybody to speak on these topics. And then let's see what the Spirit reveals. I just don't want Eric in a position where he's defending himself. I just want to say I don't feel comfortable with that.

So that's a suggestion that came to my mind. I'll throw that on the table for consideration. Eric. I guess I want to make it very clear that

I mean, maybe even a request that if the congregation does not want me to speak, I don't want me speaking to divide the congregation. You know, whether I'm speaking or not to divide the congregation. I think of this verse in Romans where it says,

Or in Corinthians it says, all things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. So, I don't want to create division in a congregation. I would like

I would like the matters to become clear on how we believe. I would like the discussions to continue on matters of faith. And even if there's concerns about me, and if we've had one-on-one visits with board members, and they're not comfortable with the way I believe, we can't leave it there.

If they feel I believe differently, we can't leave it at that spot. It's not right for me, and it's not right for the other board member. We need to continue those discussions. And God's Word is very clear on that, that He doesn't give a timeline, but it does say that we need to go, if He doesn't hear me, that we're going to one or two more. And I know we keep coming back to that,

There's a comment there that if people have had one-on-one visits with me and we can have a congregation meeting, that those matters would be brought forward there, which to me that's contrary to where God's Word speaks. Because what if those differences

I mean, could be cared for on a personal level or, you know, as a small group. That's what feels right to me. And so, maybe I would have a, I would ask the congregation that I'd be, like Matthew said, I'm okay if you can, if the congregation

I'm not speaking. I just want to make that very clear. And I also want to make it clear that some of the recent visits I've had with board members maybe have been more clear on what the difference is. But there's been previous ones where I felt like it was a nice evening and then it sounds like maybe the brother brought to the board that there was a

We didn't get anywhere, but I didn't know where we were. To me, I thought it was a nice visit on a matter of faith, so I guess I'm confused at that. I don't know, I guess what my thoughts are is that if the congregation doesn't want me to speak, I'm very happy to not. Gary?

I, too, feel very uncomfortable centering this discussion around Eric. If I were a minister, and of course I'm not, and I was having this much concern in the congregation, I would raise my hand immediately and say, you know, take me down. And then just go from there.

I agree with your comment, Keith, about talking about the issues that we have at the table and I think part of the

The vision that I see here is, I don't think we're clear on what some of the issues are with Eric, so it's not fair to any of us to have a discussion about that unless we're clear. And I don't know if that necessarily means there's a division, it just means we're not clear. And that's part of why there's a lot of confusion here, because there's just not really enough to talk about. And I think to the point that was just made in terms of, if I was a speaker and there was a question, I would be able to step down.

I thought about that, too, when this first came up a long time ago. The issue I have with that is if I'm a speaker, I'm a speaker because the congregation asked me to, not because I chose to or wanted to. And I don't know if I would be able to make that same decision by not stepping out because I choose to. And as I think some of the board members have said, there may be some issues with the board members. We don't know that either. And the one thing I worry about, too, now, especially with all the vigilancy across the country,

There's board members that are settling down. There's board members that are interlocking different congregations. And that doesn't mean that our board members are wrong or that Eric is wrong. It just means that we have to be very careful in how we approach these matters and how we decide to go one way or the other.

And, you know, from the standpoint of should Eric just step down because somebody raised concern, I don't think that's proper, and I don't think that's the right way to do things either. So my thought is, and what you said, if we talk about these discussions, and I think I already mentioned, too, there's no timetable here. If there's confusion, and if I'm confused, in general matters, I believe that there's not a specific matter

That's not something necessarily that I think needs to come to the congregation. That could be something I struggle with for a period of time. I think we've all said that we've had questions in our minds. I know I have, that I didn't know why the congregation went one way or the other. I just took some time to get to that point. And I think we should be respectful of that, too, that it's God's time. We don't have to put a date on

By next month, we have this discussion. If there's still a discussion to be had, if it's still not clear, I don't see a need for us to rush that. And in terms of him resting on it, there's no harm in continuing to rest until we have better clarity in the discussions there and in whatever else is concerned.

I know for myself, I'm listening to this conversation about having a meeting about speaking and it's becoming circular. And when I see that happening, it's not a good direction to go. There needs to be another alternative presented. That's why I proposed what I did. I don't think we should have a vote of whether we have a meeting about Eric speaking or not.

And I don't, right now, don't even feel comfortable with having a meeting about whether Eric speaks or not. I feel more comfortable with having a meeting discussing about some of these topics as matters of faith and how do we believe. And it's hard to have patience. It really is.

And being so free and open about how we made decisions and some of the processes and also the fact that we've asked Eric to rest and understanding that it can't go on forever but realizing what is that time. Having that out in the congregation is knowledge now. It's comforting to me to know that the congregation at least is aware.

I just had one thought that came to me, too. It's been nice to be here, for sure, and I feel like it's been a nice discussion. And I just thought, too, all of us, let's remember when we forgive, when whatever offenses come between the people that have concerns with Eric and Eric, that forgive from the heart both parts

Any other thoughts or comments? John? I agree with you, Keith. I think that's a good idea to just have that for the next topic. Discuss those particular issues or whatever.

I encourage anybody, I don't want anybody going home to like, they just wish they would have said something. On the other hand, I'm looking at home, so.

Hearing none, the last name for me, of course, out of 19, that costs me two. All your sins are forgiven in the name of the Lord.