Okay, why don't we begin this meeting. We'll begin with song number 163, following Dan Parks will serve. [Hymn sung (Song 163); lyrics not transcribed]
Let us bow our heads and hearts in prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, this evening we come to thee pleading that you would, through your spirit and love, guide our thoughts and speeches, guide our lives,
Protect us, dear Father, from the enemy of the soul, for we know that he goes about as a roaring lion, seeking who he may devour. Dear Father, often we find that we are so cold and dry in this life of faith that
We ask that you would, through your gospel word and message, soften the cold and dry hearts so we could rejoice together around that grace throne, which is in the midst of your congregation. Dear Father, you know our hearts. You know everything about us, dear Father. There is nothing we can hide from you.
We desire, dear Father, that you would lead us in those paths of righteousness, as the psalmist says, that we could put aside these fleshly thoughts and that we could, through your Spirit, understand even your will this evening. Dear Father,
Not only do we suffer from cold and dry hearts, we also need to be on guard, dear Father, for the enemies all would want to even puff us up and cause us to suffer the defeats of a proud and stubborn heart. But Father, lead us in thy care. We all desire, dear Father, that one day we can be together with you.
And we join even in this prayer in the words of the Psalmist when he writes in this way that, behold thou desirous truth in the inward parts, and in the hidden parts thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean. Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.
Make me to hear joy and gladness that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen. At the beginning, I would just, it was a,
A portion of God's word I would just read, which was from the first letter of Peter, his fifth chapter, some words of instruction even, which Peter gave to those at his time, which are even appropriate for us this evening to consider.
When he says in this way, likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another and be clothed with humility. For God resisteth the proud and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore unto the mighty hand of God that he may exalt you in due time, casting all your cares upon him for he cares for you. Be sober, be vigilant.
Because your adversary the devil as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour, whom resists steadfast in the faith knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace who has called us all unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while make you perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To him be glory and dominion.
Forever and ever, amen. Okay, at this time I will call the meeting to order. Mark, do you got contact with Neil and Ron? They did text a little bit ago saying they couldn't hear, they said, when Dan was giving the prayer.
So we do have a WhatsApp. Pat, do you have anyone that needs a WhatsApp? So we got Neil and, or a Zoom? Okay, a Zoom. We got Neil and Ron in Phoenix following on Zoom. So to begin with, I would like to say welcome to each and every one of you.
Pat, are you fine? We'll record this and we'll get you a copy also like we did in Wolf Lake. So same kind of a situation we had. So we will record this meeting and I will get Pat a recording of it. Also there's coffee and lunch, whatever. Just help yourself at any time during the meeting. Just feel free to go.
Also, when we have the Zoom connection, I'd ask if we could use a mic, so there'll be at least three different mics moving around. So use a mic to begin with. So I guess in the beginning,
I'm just happy that we're gathered here tonight. It's been a long, long time. We've hoped to have a meeting for a long time, and we're so thankful that now we're here, we can discuss these issues face-to-face. I guess once we scheduled the meeting with Pat,
Then we received a letter from Wolf Lake. We sent a letter back also to you guys. I do not have an agenda. We will not speak on any particular issue, but be open and free. We can speak about any and all of these issues that come before us, and we pray that God would
Lead and guide our meeting. So at this time I would open the floor. Lastly, remember a mic. They're on Zoom though, they probably want to hear it also, if you don't mind. And then leave the mic down on that table maybe.
Make sure the green light's on. Okay, I called Mark this morning and I asked if it would be okay if I'd come here because of the circumstances and I believe he's okay with it. Are the rest of you okay? If any of you feel different, I'll gladly leave.
Yeah, I think we realize this is a meeting of Wolf Lake board and speakers and Menahga board and speakers. And like you said, you explained the situation and I said, you know, welcome. Pat, did you share our letter back with your board?
Who wants to begin? Mark, did you get it so it's working? Okay.
So Neil and Ron, feel free to also participate in the meeting.
Well, I think we can start with the very first bullet point that we sent back to Wolf Lake. During the last five years, there have been numerous meetings of various kinds with participants from around North American Zion. We believe that the Holy Spirit has with love spoken, guided, and taught at those meetings on the basis of and in accord with God's word. We have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd,
We understand that those of you who have been present at these meetings believe otherwise, given that Jesus has said that a sheep know his voice and a stranger they will not follow. We are deeply concerned and we'd like to discuss this and the reasons for it.
Well, maybe I'll just read the other ones also and then we can just bounce around from them or anything else. We'd like to know your current position on the forgiveness question that members of your board first raised in 2011 and then again in 2015. You took a different position than ours, the LLCs, and those present at a number of meetings. To the best of our knowledge, those board members have never acknowledged a change in their position or yours.
We'd like to clarify that issue. Members of your board have stated that the LLC and thus we as well have a different and wrong understanding of justification. The Skoog, Raisanen letter which you fully endorse seem to suggest the same. We'd like to clarify this issue as well. We have also been concerned about the approach that your board and members of your board have taken in several letters
Of recent years, we would like to visit about this also. So there, and there's, you know, any other issues, like we said, we're more than happy to discuss. But there are several issues there that I think we could address and visit about. So feel free.
What was the different position on the forgiveness issue? Second bulletin. We'd like to know your current position on the forgiveness question. Oh, the issue of is there a time when, is there ever a time, if I remember how the question came out, is there ever a time where you would not forgive? Well,
I guess I have asked in meetings with the committee that my understanding, and when I read, Christ instructs us to always forgive. And I know Samuel, Saul has been used, and Esau, Jacob.
And I've asked that question that, you know, I've heard different interpretations of it, but that aside, I mean, that was God, we could say withholding a blessing, whether it was kingship, whatever, where in the Bible has it instructed a believer to withhold forgiveness? And then I believe the original question was,
Wasn't even that. It was whether the withholding of forgiveness from children of God during the 80s was a wrong or right. And somehow it got turned into, is there ever a time? Now myself, I don't believe there... Bible doesn't support there ever being a time.
I believe that God guides us even in that. It's his choice, but our intent should be to always forgive as a believer. So I keep it simple, I don't get hung up on it, but I think that was the original question, was the withholding of forgiveness from believers during the 80s right or wrong?
And is it true, Nick, that you asked that question in a joint Bible class here? Well, use the mic, Nick. Yeah. Yeah, I guess the first time I had ever heard this idea that there would never ever be a time or this thought was at a Bible class that Darwin had kept here.
In 2011, prior to that, my understanding was this, that of course, God's kingdom is a kingdom of forgiveness and it's our desire to preach the gospel. Yet that God through his spirit at times has, I wasn't,
Present in the 80s at those meetings, I couldn't say one way or another on those, but I believe and I understood that there are times where God through his spirit has revealed for some reason or the other to the believers and their mouths have been closed. And so my feeling on it was this that
I don't think as believers we would need to try to predetermine or figure out when we would or wouldn't, but simply this trust that the Spirit would guide and lead in a situation where it wouldn't be preached. So the first time I had heard that, first time I'd ever heard a believer say that there would never ever be a time was in 2011 when Darwin served here. And I did then raise my hand at that Bible class and asked,
Or I guess shared how I understood it, that the gospel at times when the spirit so moves can be withheld. And I think to me, a very important part of that is if it would happen, it would be done in love to reveal the condition of that individual that
Maybe repenting on their own conditions or who knows. And I don't want to get into hypotheticals, but I think it's done in love. And I think the thing that to me comes to mind when you discuss the Bible, not giving that kind of permission is the office of the keys where Jesus,
When he breathed on them and gave them the Holy Ghost, he said, whosoever sins they are remitted unto them, whosoever sins they are retained. And those keys, I think the thing, you know, even with this forgiveness discussion that it is such that God through his spirit has given us this power
We can free one from sin and we can also, when in love is needed, retain from preaching that gospel. And that's my understanding of the power of the keys. And so I think it's important that we trust that the spirit, God through his spirit guides in them situations and not that we would have to
Be wondering, should I or shouldn't I? I think if the mouth is open, we freely preach. But with that understanding that God certainly has the power to close if he would so will, I guess. Well, I guess my understanding is, my intent would be to always forgive. And I would never look at a time or try in my mind
Judge somebody that, do I withhold or hold? I agree with you on the Holies. It's God's choice. But I believe there were errors made in the 80s on withholding. And that was your original question, like you said. Was the withholding in the 80s wrong or right? And I just, I was in those 80s. I marched to the front of the church and I seen people
Where it was withheld, and I don't believe it was right. None of it was. I mean, that's just from me. Yeah, and I think that in 2011 then that was also a topic at the MBMAC meeting. I was at that meeting and maybe Darwin and a couple others, again, kind of shared their understanding of it. And that was a presentation by Keith where he had given a presentation on that. And it was openly acknowledged there that there were errors made.
And the gospel was certainly wrongly withheld at times. But I also, even though mistakes are certainly can be made and will be made again, we're faulty sinners in God's kingdom doing the work and certainly the errors can happen. Yet I don't think that changes the power of the Holy Spirit as we move forward. Yeah.
Feel free to raise your hand, I'll keep a list. When I look at that question, I guess the current position of this board is the same as it's always been. But to answer the question about the forgiveness issue, I will read to you from Matthew 6, verses 14 and 15. These are Jesus's words. For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. And from the seventh chapter, the second verse, still Jesus' words, for with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. And with what measure ye meet, it shall be measured to you again.
I guess I could explain that, but I don't think that's the topic here right now. I think the topic is forgiveness. That's what the question is. I explained what I... That's what the forgiveness issue is to me. I just read it. I can reread it if we need to, but
It just says, what's your current position on the forgiveness question? And I guess that is mine. John, you want to hand it? I guess the reason that we brought the question up is stated in the letter.
I think where the question, what the original question was is probably not so important as what the question became and was discussed at multiple meetings then. And one of those meetings was requested by the Wolf Lake Board in Southern Minnesota.
And what was it? March, 2016, maybe. And the Menahga board, other than Steve and I, weren't there at your request. So at your board's request, some of you brothers who are on the Wolf Lake board now,
Weren't a part of many of those earlier meetings and discussions. But at that meeting, that issue was discussed forward and backward for a long time. And it was also discussed at the speaker's meeting a few weeks or a month later. And I think Phil was there and Darwin was there.
So I'm sure Phil's familiar with those discussions and Bruce is certainly familiar with the discussion in Minneapolis. And I don't remember if, yeah, I guess Joe was there. Maybe that's it from your current board.
But the understanding of those meetings, which is consistent with what Luther has said, for example, about Esau and Saul and Samuel, and which you can find in, I think, sermons and writings. Otherwise, in our Christianity,
And most recently, for example, with regard to Esau, I think Keijo Nissilä writes about that in his book. And that understanding is that, yeah, there are situations where as believers, we can't preach the gospel to somebody who asks. But I think that some of the confusion results from the fact that
Some equate the word ask with repent. They're not the same thing. And it's certainly the case that we as human beings can't see into another person's heart and neither is it proper nor are we to try to measure somehow the depth of somebody's penitence
And in that regard, I think it's been openly acknowledged as it was at that meeting in 2011 that yes, there were errors in the 1980s in meetings where that happened. But we don't have to see into somebody's hearts if their words
Already reveal, for example, that they aren't penitent, as was the case, for example, with Saul. And so that's a different question. And that's why we have that understanding that we do, which it sounds like at least some of you still deny that, but feel that there is,
There's never a case when you can't preach the gospel. There's never a case when you wouldn't preach the gospel to somebody that's penitent. And if it seems a little bit murky, I would surely want to err on the side of we preach the gospel. But if there's clear evidence in somebody's words or actions that they aren't in fact repenting or turning away from
The issue in question, that's not, you know, trying to dig into somebody's heart. That's facing what they're confessing themselves. And that was the case with Saul, for example, and Esau. And I think it's a mistake if you equate ask with repent.
And that seems to be, at least to me, kind of the fundamental problem. When, if you, in your understanding, if you're equating the word ask with repent, that's not, you know, they're not the same thing. And...
I think, as Nick expressed, and I think that's always, or ought to always be the case, that we want to forgive. But, you know, the analogy I've used on some occasions is if you were walking down the road and you saw your neighbor's dog with his foot in a trap,
And you just went over there and patted it and patted it and tried to comfort it and then walked away and left it with its foot in the trap. That's in essence what we're doing or something like that. If we preach the gospel to somebody who has not recognized and acknowledged their sin but they remain in its grasp. So,
That's, you know, that's how I understand it. I think that that, like I said, that's consistent with the understanding in the meetings where we've discussed it, including at the speaker's camp. It's also consistent with Luther's writings and the confessional writings. And in fact, the last time we met here in May of 2019,
When we discussed this issue, Roger, who is not here in one of his speeches, himself used an example of when one would not preach the gospel. And I was so surprised by that, that I asked Roger if I heard him correctly, because he had never previously acknowledged that.
I think in our meeting [in Brainerd, he] insisted that even if somebody hit him on the head with a box of rocks, he'd always preach the gospel. So that's why that's a question for us. Have you ever gone to visit him? Roger? Yeah, to clarify that. Roger and I talked about it after that meeting here in May. We talked. No, but if you've been holding this in, I mean,
I haven't been holding it in. We discussed it at the meeting in Brainerd. But that's what I'm saying is that that's why it's a question for us. You guys have never accepted the understanding as far as I know. I think Phil accepted it at the
The meeting, the speaker's meeting, when we discussed that, I know when I visited with Darwin at the speaker's camp afterwards, he said, which I fully believe and understand, that his only intention in bringing it up was he wouldn't want to see the mistakes of the 80s repeated, which none of us would like to see repeated. But you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The fact that something has been wrongly used does not mean that it can't be used. And that's why, that's a question for us. And I would say, if you go back, for example, to those meetings, Bruce, I think that you guys were pretty adamant
That LLC, our understanding, whoever LLC is, me, other brothers, our understanding of that issue was wrong. And you guys stated that and pushed that pretty hard. And I think that kind of thing has caused a lot of confusion in our Zion. That's,
The perspective that I have, that I see from the meetings and discussions I've been a part of. Who's next? Joe, you want to hand that down, John? Feel free to raise your hand and then we can get the mics moving around to the next person, always. I believe the danger
With what John just said, it's putting yourself in the judgment seat of God. That's God's place to judge whether or not someone is penitent. And it's God's place to know the heart as to whether or not that that gospel is actually believed.
After the new awakening heresy in Finland, there was a discussion. I don't remember what year it was. But when the forgiveness was discussed at the speaker's meeting, took a stand that when one asks for forgiveness, he or she has to be forgiven and noted that it will be revealed in its time what people have believed.
And it was also reminded that the use of the keys of binding belong to the congregation and not to the individual. To continue one more moment here. As I have said in that, I believe it was at the Brainerd meeting,
I don't deny the power of God to do whatever he wishes to do. He is almighty, he is all powerful. But neither am I going to deny his command that says that you forgive for you will not be forgiven. On that too, brings to mind the keys.
There are two keys, not just one. And it's important that we remember there are two keys. Bruce. I can remember what I was saying. In response to John, I mean, I have to agree with Joel. I don't want to dwell
Or be in that place where I start looking at somebody that asks for forgiveness, whether they're penitent or not. I believe, I would hope my prayer would be that God would be guiding in that situation because ultimately it's he is the one who forgives. As far as that meeting in Minneapolis, I don't know. I mean, like you said, that's just your perception.
And I think we're referring to Roger's comments at that meeting where he said that he would always forgive. I mean, what's wrong with that, that he would always forgive? I mean, because he knows that the power is not his if God was to close his mouth or whatever. If I was to say I would always forgive, so what?
You know, I don't see where we're getting so hung up on this. I just, I agree with Joe. When we start going down that path, start thinking that, and forgiveness has been withheld in just recent years. So that's why I just don't, for me, I like to just keep it simple. My intent would be to always forgive and leave the rest up to God.
Randy, then Esa. Yeah, it was this morning when I was driving to work, I was thinking about this meeting and I figured this situation of the 80s would come up and I remember it really well. I was a teenager and I remember the...
Times of the difficulties, those were very difficult years for a teenager, and I don't remember much in detail. But I was thinking about this, and just so you're clear, Bruce, in any discussion or any, or to all of us, any time we've talked about the 80s, there's been this recognition that there was some,
[errors made in] the caretaker, you know? I believe so. And I've had, I'll say I was pondering this rift, it seems like that's here in this room. I just, I don't like it. And I was, why is it there? Where, how deep is this? I don't like it. Let's go, go away, rift.
I wish we could come to a common understanding, dear Wolf Lake members. But I believe, as John and Nick discussed about forgiveness, we don't, personally, I don't, the Bible, like John explained, the Bible teaches of a time where
There was a situation with Saul and Esau where forgiveness wasn't given. And so it is. But Bruce, I don't think, I don't worry about that place that I may be put in someday of judging. I trust that God will show me through the Holy Spirit if that's to happen.
And I've heard you say twice, you know, your intent is to forgive. So is mine, 100%. But I can't say that sometime God would close my mouth. It's biblical, I believe. And also... Yeah, this...
I forgot what else I was gonna say, but these matters, I think, I brought up the 80s. I think, I just wanna throw it on the table. Are these questions, of course, these are big questions. Like John has said in maybe a meeting last week about several times I've heard where Luther was debating
Doctrinal points, and he agreed on 14 and a half. That half, we need to agree on all of these points. The Holy Spirit guides and teaches, and it teaches us doctrine. And in confession of faith, it is doctrine. Sometimes I've heard that question, well, let's talk about doctrine. Well, we...
How we confess our faith, it is based off a doctrine. It is doctrine. But is it something else that's causing these things to keep rising? I've heard in many discussions, and I can go back to a discussion in the 80s in the farmhouse. As a young teenage boy, I can go to the early 90s, a discussion with my mother. I can go to the mid, I just remember,
Many times where this thought of people having something against the LLC or AALC back then. I remember walking out of that conversation I had in the eighties with another fellow teenager. We need to, we need to care for matters that are causing this division. We need to, we need to
Speak about those things. Be free. And if you see something in me, please tell me. I want to get to heaven, but I believe the way I confess my faith, and I'm not very confident in my faith, but I'm confident in that way. So. Esa.
Yeah, I think the scriptures clearly tells us, even commands us, to forgive. So I think I simply understand that I want to forgive, and what's beyond that? God's domain, and God is all-powerful. But I want to forgive people.
This Samuel and Saul, I don't think so it would apply here. The way I understand, I think that God had already rejected Saul. So I think it's a different situation because it doesn't say that we should do the same way.
I have been studying some of these SRK historical books and there are some references to these issues. For example, there was a speaker's meeting in Finland in 1947 and this was a question. Do we preach forgiveness to heretics or do they have to first clarify
That they ask forgiveness for false doctrine and heresy. And the matter was discussed and the conclusion was that the repentance and forgiveness must be preached to heretics as in general to those who are outside. So no, we don't need to clarify. We just preach forgiveness and time will tell what people have believed.
Also, there was this new awakenedism when the gospel was kind of restricted or controlled, and there was in this one Seppo Lohe's book, this according to his understanding, refers to Matti Suo eto Hurula, the borders for the gospel were too close if they're placed along the walls, because
Jesus commanded to preach the gospel in all the world. One cannot set any condition for the gospel. The sins must be preached, forgiven without any kind of questioning. One more thing, this binding, I think this is a different issue now. The Church of Christ, we know what it is, and these two keys,
This binding, only congregation can bind. So this is not like individual person withholding forgiveness. This applies to situation where the church love, church love Christ has been followed, and the last thing is then the congregation then binds individual. So I would keep these two separate. Next.
I guess just to clarify, you know, Jesus spoke a couple of different times about the keys and in one portion he speaks of loosing and binding, but he also speaks of remitting and retaining. And there's another version of the scripture out there, more of a, maybe an English version that, and I think if you,
Look up the word retain. It is to withhold something. And this other version actually words it this way that whatsoever you forgive is forgiven in heaven and whatsoever you do not forgive is not forgiven. And I think about this forgiveness issue and I
I feel like we're 99.999% in agreement on this and that we want to forgive. And it's unfortunate that it is a debate, yet I also feel like we can't just leave at rest when there is this seemingly very small and very rare
It's a time that we're talking about when maybe the gospel wouldn't be preached. And it hasn't happened in my 40 years of lifetime that I was in a position where I felt like I couldn't preach the gospel. And I hope I'm never in that position. But I think the thing that, for me, why I can't maybe just
Ignore it, so to speak, is this that when we speak of the power of God, it's the Holy Spirit too. And for me to say, I will always forgive, to me leaves no room for the Holy Spirit to work in me in those situations. Intent, I would always have the intent to. So I think if we could agree that
The Holy Spirit, which is God in the third person that has been given to his kingdom and to each believer, that Holy Spirit has that power. And that Holy Spirit guides our mouth. And so I think that is really, to me, what it's down to is this acknowledgement of the power of the Holy Spirit. And I've had this thought of,
If we were to deny that power of the Holy Spirit, could we fall into this place, as the Bible says, that we have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof? And there was another portion of scripture that talks about this too, and I don't know if it exactly applies, but I've heard it talked about where it says,
Some to the effect of lay, lay your hands, lay your hands suddenly on no man and not be partaker of his, of his evil deeds. And I have understood that to speak about this too of, you know, that, that,
We neither would want to corrupt the gospel in situations like that. Randy. Just a couple more short things regarding this. I remember we talked about this in depth at the 2016 speaker's camp. I don't want to put words in
Anyways, I won't say who I think it was who said this, but said the same thing as John did. We would want to err on the side of forgiving. We would want to. And when I heard that, I said amen in my heart. As we've heard, our desire is to forgive. Jesus, when he was asked how many times
We would forgive, it's 70 times seven. That's many times, you know, and the Bible speaks mostly, lots about forgiveness, and that's, as believers, we want to forgive, but. Esa. Yeah, I can assess one comment. I think
We have to confess that none of us really understands this issue deeply. And we are talking about extremely rare situations here. So dear brothers, why do we break love over these issues? We cannot just admit that
I don't have all the answers. I don't understand this deeply, these issues. And this issue really doesn't pertain my personal salvation. So I think that we can keep love. I think it's more important to kind of try to analyze this so deeply, this issue. Again, I don't think so any of us really fully understand this.
Phil. I'll just read, you know, where Nick mentioned that we leave room for the Spirit. These are Jesus' words that are found in 1 John. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.
And these three are one. And also then in John, the Gospel of John, these again are words of Jesus. It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit.
And they are life. So going back to the words of Jesus, when Jesus spoke them words that if we do not forgive men their sins or trespasses, neither will Heavenly Father forgive us. These are the words of the Holy Spirit. They're the words of Christ. I speak unto you. The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.
Next. John, someone want to get a mic over to... I think actually that
Esa hit at a key point. Why war over this thing? But I think that's exactly kind of our question. Why? Why did your board at that time war against the understanding that was shared in those meetings?
And, you know, Esa, when you and Anne were over visiting one time, we talked about it, and you basically made the same statement, I think, that a number of us made or at least supported at that 2011 meeting, that we can't say never.
Because of the examples, rare that they are in God's word, but we can trust that the Holy Spirit leads and guides. But your board actively rejected that in those discussions of the next several years. And that's why it's a question
In our mind, and I think it seems that that's still where at least some of you are. And I think that that's, why was there contention over that? And you know,
I have to say, as I don't agree with your understanding of Saul, God had rejected him from being king, but that's not the same issue as not forgiving him because he wasn't penitent. But those are two different issues. So, and I think on,
Some of these, you know, like binding and withholding forgiveness, they're not even the same thing. When somebody is bound, I think as Juhani Uljas explains quite clearly in his 1979 introduction on,
Confession and the keys explains when somebody is bound, they're removed from the care of the congregation. So that's not quite the same thing. So to me, that's,
Kind of the question, why was there this battle and contention over this issue when in 2011, we discussed it and now at least it seems like you're willing to consider that anyway, Bruce, but
I, you know, I, I don't know. I don't know if you were there in 2011, but so that's why it's, you know, this, this warring against that's gone on is what's troubling. Likewise on the issue of justification, there are,
The members of your board who have said that, you know, we have the wrong doctrine of justification. Well, that's a very serious statement because if that's wrong, we don't really have anything. Then that's the most central doctrine of our faith. And I can say that for me, I have felt like, you know, we have had to explain
And defend our understanding. And when there's all this contention and then we express concern about it, then those who have accused us of having a wrong understanding will say, well, what's wrong with our understanding? And it's very hard to understand what's going on.
With that, I mean, do you think that we have a wrong understanding of justification? It is hard to understand because we never have discussed justification in our meetings. What was your earlier, you know, these are,
I feel perceptions of yours that I don't think we were fighting in those meetings. You know, you keep coming back and turning this thing into an adversarial thing, whatever.
I didn't look at it yet. I mean, in that Minneapolis meeting, when Roger said that he would always forgive, he was accused of having unforgiven sins. Somebody across the table could see into Roger's heart. I mean, this is the stuff that took place in these meetings. Were you at that meeting? Steve was there. Yeah, I was, I don't remember that. You know, I don't like when this tone keeps going into this.
This is more of a fight. And I think it's, you know, and this is my perception that it's coming from you, John. Let's sit here and discuss this thing and not start accusing people of this and that. That's all I'm saying. You know, we're not going to get anywhere if you start accusing us of being this or being that, because that is your perception. I don't look at it that way.
You know, and if you've had this perception, like I brought up at the meeting, go visit Phil, go visit Darwin, go visit these guys. I don't even know these guys. I know Randy, you know, I've known him for years. He's, you know, I have no problem with, you know, I've confessed how I believed on this forgiveness issue and I've confessed it in those meetings.
You know, I agree with Nick. I don't know what this 1% is. We're off. Other than, you know, I... You know, let's be able to just discuss this, you know. I mean, hey, I could be, you know, I'm just, don't have no great knowledge or whatever, but this is,
I'm trying to confess how I believe. I don't care to have someone start accusing me of this or that or whatever. We have to keep it to where we can sit and freely discuss it. So you'd asked about the 1%. So Bruce, are you saying that you acknowledge there could be a time and that God through the Spirit could close the mouth?
Well, I said that at the beginning. I'm not saying that there could be a time or whatever. I'll leave that to God. My intent would be to always forgive. I agreed with you. But you would acknowledge that God through the Spirit has that power if he would... Oh, he has the power to do anything. Yeah. And I've always said that. My intent would be to always forgive. I said, I agreed with you.
It hasn't changed. I mean, John made it sound like this understanding has changed. Not with me, it hasn't. And if he has a problem with someone, he can go discuss it with them and what their understanding is. That's all I'm saying, you know? Is that how all the rest of you feel about that? That the spirit would have that power if?
Go ahead, Mylon. I guess I would pose the question then that would the Holy Spirit contradict the words of Christ? If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father as well as the Spirit of Jesus Christ, would it contradict the words that he instructed for us to do?
As far as the retaining of sins goes, I think the remitting is pretty clear, but I think Jesus gives a good example of retaining when he sent his disciples out to preach the message of the kingdom. And I'll read a couple of verses out of Mark 6, starting with verse 10. And he said unto them,
In what place whoever ye enter into and host, there abide till ye part from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you nor hear you when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
So I think in either case, whether we are remitting or retaining sins, we as ambassadors of Christ are preaching the same gospel message. When sins are remitted, a person accepts the gospel. When sins are retained, they reject the gospel message. Mark. John, you want to hand your mic down?
I would just, speaking in this matter of forgiveness, the matter of justification, many other matters have been, they have been brought out in a spirit of mistrust and that's my perspective from the meetings that
I've attended and also personal conversations that these things have brought out in a way that somehow that God's kingdom here in North America has taught wrong. And it isn't just one man's perspective. It's not just John's perspective. We have seen, we have seen and experienced already
Much division. And when these matters, if we consider any one matter, I don't need to understand deeply all these matters to get to heaven.
But when we discuss a matter, and through the Spirit we can say, when someone else speaks, we can say, Amen. The Spirit answers, that's how I believe. If we're all of the same mind and the same spirit, and we discuss a matter, and we say Amen, what more is there to discuss on that matter?
I don't think we can just dismiss them and this has caused, these matters have caused much division and strife. If we believe the same on these matters, on this matter of forgiveness, we can confess our faith and say, yes, I believe that there are times when through the Spirit,
The spirit of God, which is in the heart of each believer, that God, being all powerful, can even withhold from the preaching of the gospel and the forgiveness. And I have personally, personally known of one believer who is no longer, who is,
Passed away that had had that experience. And I don't know we need to bring up all these examples, but there was one that was traveling in the heresy who had this, he wanted, he had this, an ecumenical understanding that
All of us that are of Lestadian background, that we all, we all believe the same, really. We just have some disagreements. And this way, he wanted to preach the gospel one to another, that we can just preach the gospel to each other. The Spirit didn't answer. It wasn't in, we weren't able to preach the gospel.
And I know for myself, I also have that desire in my heart that I would always be ready to forgive. But this isn't what the discussion is even on. I think everyone that's spoken has spoken that same matter. What's in question is whether or not we believe the same, that there is times when God has
Through the power of the Holy Spirit, even withheld forgiveness. Who's next? Gotta pass the mic down to Bruce.
And Mark, there's also been times where enemy of soul in us has withheld forgiveness too. We have to acknowledge that. You want to pass the mic to Steve?
Yeah, I think we acknowledge that in ourselves, we may make those mistakes. The enemy of souls can tempt us in that. But regardless of what the original question was, I have no idea what the original question was, but there's been plenty of discussions over the years where the point has been made that there never could be a time that we should withhold forgiveness. I mean, never is a pretty strong word.
I don't have the desire that I would ever withhold. But I can't, I can't believe that God would not, does not have the power, ever, to use the word never, that it would never happen. And I don't know, it just, it seems strange that, you know, for this many years there's been that,
Position that there could possibly be a time. Or that there couldn't ever be a time, I should say. That I could say never. That God wouldn't close my mouth. I hope not. But I sure can't say never. And I know
I mean, I was at many of those meetings in the 80s and certainly it was a strange and confusing time for a young man. And it was such a relief when those times were passed. And I guess I grieved when
All those things come back to mind from these discussions. It just seemed like, well, thank God that those things were cleared up and we won't have to go down that path, hopefully, again. But yeah, I don't know. I do wonder how people could say never. Bruce.
Yeah, Steve, I mean, for myself personally, I just don't like that there could be a time, you know. I don't even want to go down that road. There could be a time. I'll leave that up to God, you know, so that's where I've been trying to come from. And I agree with Esa. You know, do all of us have a real great knowledge on this forgiveness issue? I don't know.
If I heard the word, there's never, maybe there has been, but whatever. Leland and then Esa. On this topic, I think the real fear for me behind it is that when do I choose to forgive?
Sometimes the discussion has felt to me that it's like myself choosing who's forgiven or when they're forgiven, and that just doesn't seem like that would be right to me, because I'm not capable of choosing. As to the statement about the spirit shutting my mouth, I can't say that couldn't happen, but I don't see that in my mind I could be the one to choose.
Go ahead, Esa. Is the green on? Yeah, I think we all agree that God is almighty. God does what he wants to do. But we desire to forgive and scriptures exhorts that we forgive each other. Can't believe we leave it right there.
I think it's simple. I mean, to me. Steve. I agree. Can't we leave it right there? Right. But why has it continued to be an issue? I guess I don't know. I
Sitting here and thinking back and it's rather obvious to me that the enemy of the soul is also here tonight. He's always here. But
Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy. When I think about this question, is there ever a time, as Steve was alluding to, I always come back to this instruction that Apostle Paul gave to Timothy.
He said in this way, but foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they gender stripes. To me, that says in a nutshell what's going on here tonight. We're asking some questions that are hypothetical, and I think the questions that should be asked is, how do we believe our sins are forgiven? Do we always believe they're forgiven?
You know, we've talked about this continual forgiveness, and to me, that's a much more important topic to talk about than this hypothetical question that, to me, I have to say, in my mind, it's a foolish question because it just causes us to start looking beyond as though we're looking at the end of the universe, so to speak. It just causes misunderstandings. It causes us to be at odds with each other, and that's coming from the enemy of the soul. It's not coming from the Holy Spirit.
So let's take a deep breath, let's step back, and let's talk about the beauty of God's forgiveness. Each and every one of us tonight can enjoy that forgiveness and that peace of conscience when our sins are forgiven. And let's avoid those questions that gender strife. It's not helpful to the situation, and I think we should understand and realize that
There were things done in the 80s that went beyond what God's word and spirit would teach us. But we don't need to keep digging those up because the Holy Spirit is with us yet today and he guides us. And I think we're all maybe focusing on the wrong topics here because we've been concerned about
But whether or not we need to bless each other, whether or not we need the gospel always, and some of those kinds of things that have been causing strife and unrest. And I think as I kind of gave my thought on our board and speaker's WhatsApp, the thought has been with me
Is that when we're talking about these matters that are causing confusion, I think it's good if we could encourage both Phil and Darwin to speak how they believe on these matters because Phil and Darwin are the ones that have been disinvited, not the boards, but we need to have a common understanding so these confusions aren't there and causing this unrest.
Because the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. And I think we want to step back from some of these questions. And like Steve mentioned, never and ever, you can't, there's no end to that question because you can always come up with some new thought, new idea, but that just causes divisions and strife. So let's not go there. I'd like to hear that gospel too.
Okay, who's next? You want to get a mic, Phil?
One of the thoughts I think I expressed at our congregational meeting that when I was in Florida, I spoke about sort of humbling ourselves and asking that have we always put the best construction on these discussions? Have we looked at each other as Christ looks at us?
Have we fulfilled the golden rule? Do unto others as you would like to do unto yourself. And when we think about forgiveness, like it's been talked about as the depth of forgiveness, and it's important to recognize that
Forgiveness is a matter of the heart. And it's not necessarily if someone asks and we bless them, we still need to forgive them from our own heart. And we're all sinners. Like the Bible says, we have all fallen short of the glory of God.
You know, when I think of that portion that Pat quoted in Matthew, Jesus' words that, if you don't forgive men their sins, neither will Heavenly Father forgive you. I really recognized or it opened onto me to a little deeper meaning what that Bible verse meant. And I'll share the story because
All of you know that I'm in business and obviously one of the, as a businessman, we hope to get paid. And those of you that are in business, sometimes you know that you don't always get paid. Somebody's taking advantage of your services. And this was actually the case with a guy and it was at,
Fairly significant amount of money. And it bothered me. And it really bugged me every time I thought of him. And it bothered me every time I seen him in town. I would go and try to collect money from this man periodically. I knew he was in the house. He wouldn't answer the door. And it really,
Eight at me. And one time I was actually coming out of Hugo's and he was coming in and I accosted him again and I said, hey, you know, what's the deal? When are you going to pay me? And he literally turned around and left and he didn't actually even go into the store. And I thought to myself that did I behave
As Christ has taught us to behave. You know, my actions weren't, I turned a man from the grocery store. And then I started thinking about that. And when I read that Bible portion, I don't know, maybe it was sometime later, I recognized that I haven't forgiven him even though he's taking full advantage of me.
And then I realized that I need to forgive this man, even if he had done something that was not correct. And then God opened it to me to some extent, the significance of us forgiving our fellow man. And when that opened and I realized that I need to forgive this man,
Then it sort of took all that away. I didn't need to, I didn't have that feeling of angst. I didn't have that feeling of bitterness or anger toward this man any longer. Subsequently, he has never paid his bill. But I've sort of let it go. And that's what,
Forgiveness is. And as far as, you know, as far as the topic of justification, to me it's, I guess if you brothers would ask me that, how do I understand justification? I guess I'll just read from the Bible.
And these are Apostle Paul's words that he wrote to the Romans. And they really cover a lot of the topics of what justification is, the forgiveness of sins. And I don't know how much I'll read, but I'll just start reading. And let's try to listen to these words, not for our neighbor,
But let's listen to these words for ourselves. And they're really encouraging words. Like Dan mentioned, the joy of believing. And when we can believe this way, we have peace with God.
What shall we say then, that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture, Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of depth. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only or upon the uncircumcision also. For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned?
When he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision, not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision, and he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness of faith, which he had yet being uncircumcised, that he might be the father of them all that believe, though they be not circumcised, that righteousness might be imputed unto them also,
And the father of uncircumcision, sorry, the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. Sort of a tongue twister there with all them going back and forth.
And that's really not the main part of the, well, it is, but as far as justification, I think the end of the chapter speaks more to it, but I'll read the whole thing. For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect. Because the law worketh wrath, for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace to the end the promise might be sure to all thy seed.
Not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Who against hope, believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, so shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, which he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb. He staggered not at the promises of God,
It shall be imputed, if we believe, on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification. I think, and then of course, we could read chapters five and six where the apostle
Paul teaches of the new man and how when we're living of grace that we also walk in the newness of life. I know it's sometimes been said that I've heard the comment anyway that that if we live of grace that there will become a permissiveness of sin and
This is not according to God's word at all. And Apostle Paul explains it very clearly in many places in the Bible. But, you know, the chapter six would be one where he speaks about that when we live in the new man, we basically put to death the old body. And as all of us understand that,
We have this sinful portion and we're not going to get rid of it here on earth. But nevertheless, when we live in the newness of the spirit, things are well before God and our sins are forgiven by faith. But it does not give license to live contrary to God's word.
And in fact, Apostle Paul gives some examples. I think there was a man named Demas who had the love of the world in his heart. And on account of that, he lost this treasure, this gift of faith. So we do live in grace and truth.
Also in the eighth chapter of Romans, Paul says that there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son
In the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemn sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. And then later in that same math, same chapter,
Chapter 8, the Apostle Paul speaks about who justifies us. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified. Apostle Paul also speaks about justification very beautifully in the second chapter of Galatians, but I won't read that.
That's how I believe that I am justified before God and that by and through faith, I have been gifted this righteousness, not of myself, but it has come from Christ Jesus who resides in my heart. And I have peace with God and great joy.
So perhaps we can look into ourselves and recognize that all of us have fallen short and, you know, words do mean things and perhaps I have said something in a manner that has offended
Some here I don't know, but I ask that if I have, that I would want to ask for forgiveness, that can I believe those sins forgiven? And, you know, the gospel has an amazing power that
Gives us strength and Jesus commanded that when we offend one another that we would take care of these offenses and then also restore one another. And I think all of us recognize in our lives when we have offended someone or perhaps spoken poorly of our brethren,
And there's nobody here tonight that can boast or push out their chest and say that throughout the last years that they have spoken well. We're humans. We're corrupt. We're sinful. And I know that
I have had these kinds of thoughts and feelings towards others. And even though it's natural as humans when we in some regard feel hurt and things perhaps
Are said that I know that aren't true. And like I mentioned, words, they can cut like a knife. But above and beyond that, that's what Jesus is teaching us. That despite that, I need to forgive my fellow man and have love
For my fellow brothers and sisters. You know, in God, or in John, it says that God loved us first so that we could love him. And I think when we read from the Bible, it's incomprehensible when I think about myself
And my sinfulness, it's an incomprehensible matter to believe that God has not imputed my sins. Like I read from Romans and how David has written, blessed is the man that God does not impute sins. And it's a mystery of faith
It's incomprehensible for our human understanding and our carnal reasoning to understand the depth of God's grace to someone like me. And I think when we can see that in part, it's easier to look at our brother
And try to put the best construction on them. When we recognize this divine forgiveness that God has given for me, undeserved and unmerited, in some ways it makes me want to love my brother as God has loved me. So I encourage each one of you here tonight
That you too can believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. And if in your heart or in your mind you have felt ill will toward another, and perhaps have even spoken words that has hurt someone,
Or perhaps not even hurt someone, but you know that you have spoken ill. May perhaps even bore a false witness or slandered someone. This is close to each and every one of us. That you would want to first and foremost be able to believe it forgiven in your own heart. All sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood.
And then, like I mentioned, the power of the gospel is such that then it begins to make tracks to repair and to restore one another. Yeah, and I have to say for myself, if I've offended anybody or poor words or wrong words that I have spoken, can I hear that gospel?
Okay, who's next?
Randy, someone get a mic over to Randy. Another thing that's been resting on my mind
For quite some time surrounding these issues and I brought it up earlier when I mentioned the rift or the seemingly difference we have and I've asked a question to myself and even at one of the recent board meetings when we were visiting about this is the thought about fellowship.
I've asked and I've wondered, do we share the fellowship we once cherished anymore? I'm just asking the question. And I ask it for, there's a particular reason. It's been on my mind, I guess. And one of the,
Things we learned about at the MBMAC was we heard Joe's letter to us that did not support Keith and George being nominated for the LLC board. And I guess I just feel I need to ask the rest of you, do you share that type of feeling
I think it'd be important to know that, I guess. We share the same fellowship with Keith and George, and I guess maybe it's a simple answer I'd like to know. I would say, Randy, that I think you should maybe visit with Joel personally. I don't care to bring that up here. That was his letter. He encouraged people, whoever, visit him.
You know what I'm saying? Sure, I can. As far as fellowship, I don't have nothing against none of you. You know, I've been with you, Mark. I've been with you, Randy. That's good, yeah. I'm glad. You know, I have a suggestion. You know, to restore this fellowship, that maybe we could do one Bible class a month, maybe a joint one, and discuss issues or whatever.
Maybe in round tables or whatever, between Menahga and Wolf Lake. Yeah, it'd be good. Yeah, that'd be nice. But, you know, on a more of a group issue. So do you support, you obviously support Keith and George being nominated for the LLC board. I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I think there's issues there.
And I've discussed it with issues, but this is not a... That's why I'm asking, I guess. I know. But, you know, I've had my discussions with Keith. And I hold him as a dear brother. And Keith knows that. That's good. Good. But this is what... That was a private... I mean, that was a letter that
If you have an issue, visit with Joe. I would encourage you guys to visit with him. You know, I'm not- Bruce, that letter was publicly read. It's a public letter. Okay, okay. Yeah, it was read to us. If you guys haven't urged any kind of retraction to me, then you guys are in full support of that letter. No, I don't have an opinion. Well, I don't believe that. You can't have an opinion. Well, I mean, I have somewhat an opinion. I mean, you know, I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it. I think it's important, Bruce. Huh? I think it's important.
It may seem small and insignificant, but I think, I said this earlier, I've heard throughout my life, I've heard differences of opinion about LLC and brothers from you yourself, Bruce. And it's good to be honest about these matters. We've had visits, Bruce, where we've disagreed on
Oh, yeah. Situations around LLC brothers. And that's why I ask it. I want to be humbly ask it. I don't want to. Yeah. No, I know, I know. I want to be in that place. I know, I know. We're not going to. But I just want to ask. I think it's important. You know, I've had my visits with Keith, so I'll leave it at that. But being I got the mic, I'm getting tired of talking, Mark.
Watch that. I'll just bring up an issue. I'll just bring up an issue, yeah. You know, the disinviting of our ministers, I guess. Okay, that's good that we visit about that. Oh, it's been several years ago already that we visited with, Roger was chairman and Joe was his secretary. I approached him at the MBMAC meeting. I'm sure, Joe, you remember that? That we want to visit with
The board and Phil and Darwin. That's been several years ago, and this is our first meeting that we've had. And I think if I remember right, I visited with Darwin, not Darwin, but with,
Roger, when he was chairman, I also visited with Pat since he's been chairman about it. And I think it would be important, from what I remember, and me and Pat, we've discussed it, what I've heard is at a speaker's meeting, and I don't remember when it was, and of course I wouldn't have been there. So like me and Pat have said, we weren't there. So this is, we heard from our speaker brothers
And maybe one of them can speak to it, but there was a different, they had a different understanding. And I believe that's when maybe Cokato disinvited and many, many, since that, many, many congregations have probably disinvited and they will no longer then serve in Wolf Lake either until these issues are resolved.
And I think it's important that we visit about them and be open and honest. And we want to know what's the difference? What are the differences? That's what we wanted to talk about. And that's what I'm sure Joe will clarify it. And Pat also, that's what I said. They said there were differences. And we wanted to know what are the differences? And maybe some of that stuff has been revealed since that time.
And it's important that, you know, when there's differences that we freely talk about them. Go ahead. I know, and I think if there is differences, I think it should start with, if you have a difference, go visit with these guys and discuss them. We all live with any, you know what I'm saying? Go visit these brothers. But, you know, it's turned into, now these issues are,
I don't even know where they are, to be honest. I mean, it's... I know, so maybe we should step back and maybe go visit with these brothers first. You know, and that's what I'm just saying. Right, and that's why we have these meetings, and I hope, Darwin's not here, I see that, but I sure hope Phil will speak to what the differences are.
I think he just made a confession of how he believes, or... Yeah, but about what... And I don't know what the discussion was at the... And I don't... I wasn't there either, Mark. Neither of you weren't there. I mean, if they openly said there's differences, then... Did they openly say there's differences? I said they said. At one time, I'm assuming they did, because our speaker brothers said that. And I have no reason to dispute what they said.
I don't know, I can't speak on that. I know first and foremost, I have to believe myself. And I think once we're talking on the letters, even the letter that your board sent to Brainerd congregation accused them openly of sin for not
Allowing your speaker to go there to serve. I've openly said in meetings, and you were in there, that I do see it as a sin. Okay, explain. It's not according to scripture when you start cutting off the body of Christ and saying that you have no need of him. I'm just saying how I see it, Mark. Right, right. That's all. No, and I think it's good that we discuss it. Okay, Josh.
Feel free, raise your hand, I'll start a list. I guess my understanding is pretty small and pretty slim, but just concerning that cutting off the members of the body of Christ, I think it's important that we remember that our speaker brothers serve at the will and the behest of the congregation. And when there's storm clouds or clouds of confusion,
Concern, worry around the understanding of a particular speaker, brother. And if they're asked to not come serve at this time until we can speak about matters, visit about matters, and the spirit that dwells within us agrees
I don't believe that that's cutting off the members of the body of Christ. I don't believe that that is saying from one member to the other that we have no need of thee. And I believe that the spirit and understanding and intent of those letters that I've read directed towards
The dear Wolf Lake congregation has been one of love and one of concern. It has not been a condemning letter. At least that hasn't been my feeling. And we've talked or heard, I should say, much about perceptions. And maybe my particular perception is wrong
But I can say this, that the discussions that I've been a part of far and wide, both personal and in large meetings, the understanding of the vast majority of God's kingdom has been that these letters have been sent with love and with care and with concern for the undying soul of mankind there in Wolf Lake.
And so it's difficult for me to say that this is only my perception. And I guess I would have to ask the question or rather suggest that maybe one should take a step back and if they feel that way, maybe take a step back and ask, if I feel this way,
Where am I? Faith is a personal matter. The congregation won't get to heaven. The board won't get to heaven. But we as individuals can. This topic of forgiveness,
Bruce, you brought up a couple of times, and I don't mean to call you out, but you brought up a couple of times about, you know, the original question was the withholding that happened in the 80s, was it right or wrong? And there seems to be this question and this desire, maybe not on your part, but on the part of some individuals that have really struggled as of late to go back into debate and discuss
Situation in the 80s. And to try to drag up things that have been cared for with this most precious gospel. And Phil even spoke to this that forgiveness comes from the heart and it's received in the heart. And we each one need to forgive. And I have to ask this question that have all of you dear brothers
Forgiven those things that happened in the 80s. That question's been on my mind for some time. For if in your heart you've forgiven and forgotten and those matters are drowned in a sea of grace, there's no heartburn over it anymore. And maybe it's easy for me to say because I was just a little tight during those years. I was in
Innocent stages of infancy during those years. So for me, they haven't been a point of contention, a point of difficulty. But it's been my understanding, and I've heard many times from many different believers across North American Zion that those were difficult times. There were things that were done incorrectly.
There were those that went into the flesh. There were those that were heavy-handed. There was overshooting. There was dryness. It's been openly acknowledged. But the most important thing that I've heard over and over about that time is that the gospel was preached, sins were forgiven, and most importantly, sins were believed forgiven.
And those individuals that took part at that time were able to care for matters, love was restored, and they died leaving a good testimony. And those that are living today, from what I've understood, were able to take care of matters. If there's somebody that you feel,
Hasn't taken care of matters. Have you visited with them? Have you taken care of matters with them? If there's difficulties and struggles there, have we taken care of those matters? I think it's a question that needs to be asked and we each individually can ask ourselves that question. The other thing that's been left in my heart when I've listened to
Many of the speeches so far is that there's been a lot of talk about God and a lot of talk about Jesus Christ and very little talk of the Holy Spirit. That's been my perception. That's what I've heard. That's what I've felt. And I could be wrong, but it's not the first time that I've
I've never heard this either, and it's not the first time I've felt this way as I've listened to speeches in past meetings. But when it continues to come in my heart and in my mind, I need to bring it out. I'm not accusing anybody, but I need to lay that on the table because if it's incorrect, I want to be corrected. But that's been what I've heard. Much talk of God, much talk of Jesus Christ,
Very little talk of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third part of God that dwells within us and within God's congregation here today, leading and guiding and instructing, teaching in all things, and also bringing onto remembrance those things which Christ has said unto us. And no, the Holy Spirit will not contradict itself.
And the Holy Spirit will not contradict the word of God. The Holy Spirit is God. That the Holy Spirit is here today, dwelling in his kingdom, leading and guiding and teaching in all things.
You can get the mic to Mitch. You kept a firm hold of that thing. You didn't want to get rid of it. Yeah, and regarding your comment, Josh, about a lot of talk about God and a lot of talk about Christ, I think
I think I've heard rumors about, you know, Wolf Lake speaks too much of Christ and not enough about the congregation or the spirit. A little closer, Mitch. But, I mean, I don't know if this is an answer to your question, but in John 16, verse 13, these are Jesus' words. How be it when he, the spirit of truth, is come,
He will guide you into all truth, for he shall speak of himself, excuse me, for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear that ye shall speak, and he will shew you all things to come. And he shall glorify me, which would be Christ, for he shall receive of mine and shall shew you, shew it unto you.
That's just what came to mind when you asked that question about speaking of Christ, our Savior, and of God. And not enough of the Spirit, that's just what came to mind. And also, I'd like to welcome all you servants of the Word from Menahga to Wolf Lake to preach, not of yourself,
But of that unspeakable gift from God, that undescribable gift, that gift of Jesus Christ and eternal life. Mitch, you want to give the mic to Joel? Yes, the only.
One thing that popped to mind when Josh made the comment of speaking of the Holy Spirit or not speaking of the Holy Spirit is, in my mind, God mentioned God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and I guess I didn't realize there was a need to differentiate and speak of each portion of the Godhead individually.
Next. What is your thoughts on that first discussion about all the meetings we went? We've heard the Holy Spirit.
And we've heard that some have said that, no, there was no Holy Spirit. There was just anger and on and on and on about the meeting. We've heard that on several meetings. Some of the major meetings, how have you brothers felt when you've been at those meetings? Have you heard the Holy Spirit calling with love or not?
Speak. No, I believe the Holy Spirit was there and also the enemy of soul. And I don't believe, how would I say, Christ was in some of those speeches. And I've been open at those meetings. I've had sitting there with Ray Waaraniemi and whatever.
And I'm not going to go into it now. I mean, I don't want to get tit for tat, but they know how I felt. And I don't know of anyone from Wolf Lake that said the Holy Spirit wasn't there, Mark. So they might have disagreed with some of the speeches. Nick, do you have your hand up? I'm done.
I guess just thinking about kind of where we're at and where things have gone with these issues, I guess, in the past, I guess, 10 years now. And, you know, when I think about
You know, where things are today and how, of course, a couple years ago or two to three years ago, most of the congregations in God's kingdom weren't comfortable with Darwin and Phil anymore serving there. And, you know, a couple, two to three years has gone by and now,
The congregations in God's kingdom aren't comfortable anymore sending speakers to Wolf Lake. And we see how the division has seemingly widened between God's kingdom
And Wolf Lake and other areas. And the unity between, for example, Minneapolis and Wolf Lake seemingly and other areas as well. But it's, you know, I guess the concern is great.
You know, we discuss even these points of doctrine and, you know, in some ways agree on the majority of it, yet there's this, maybe this difference, a different feeling or difference, you know. Even in our comments now, you know, maybe it feels like to some extent we're on different sides of the issue, you know, a little bit. And that, you know, then it shows up at summer services.
Maybe a big group of those that are of a different mind than I would say the majority of God's kingdom. And, you know, I recently was at a couple of different birthday parties of friends of mine and all of a sudden it's just a totally new group of people at that birthday party from what
If that birthday party would have been 10 years ago. And so we see these groups that, you know, this, I would say this, this group that is beginning to form or has formed and it can't continue that way. We can't continue being together and
Not be in unity. And, you know, maybe we can find our differences here or maybe we can't, but I guess I can say that, you know, in my time in God's kingdom, I've believed what I've heard and what's been preached
It's been a comforting message and one that it's a secure dwelling place and it's been a beautiful kingdom. Is it made up of faulty individuals? Yes, it is. We're faulty individuals, but it's been a place that we've traveled together on the way to heaven in and it doesn't,
It doesn't work if we're not in unity and we're, the path, you know, the path can't go a different direction than what it's been in God's kingdom. And it feels like it has. And, you know, these differences are, and part of the challenge I think with doctrinal issues is you can have
You know, maybe two points and they're both correct. But maybe the emphasis is leaning one way too far or the other way too far. And it might be hard to point out in scripture in black and white exactly, you know, if the emphasis is in the wrong place. But the spirit knows. And the spirit can feel it. And when the discussions are,
You know, the comments maybe at some meetings that come out and the spirit just doesn't answer to it. And I think, you know, even though there might be some specific doctrinal things that we can say that we don't see eye to eye on, I think generally, you know, as was pointed out in that letter that we've gone away with different impressions even of many of these meetings that have happened. And why is that?
And I don't know even what specifically or how to say it, but I remember a brother from Toronto, I guess, at that meeting in Monticello relating to his situation. And he said when he was a new board member,
There were some others, you know, maybe on that board even where that was, that were beginning to, I guess, I don't know if ridicule is the right word or challenge God's kingdom, finding faults. And he said he started listening to it and pretty soon he was nodding along and then
He was in full agreement and looking for support for his positions. And then when he was approached to, some of you were at that meeting and heard him say it himself, but some of you haven't been or weren't there. But when he was approached and said that you've fallen into a wrong understanding
You're in a dangerous place. He was defensive and he wanted to know, well, show me in black and white in the Bible, where am I wrong? But then he said, when the Holy Spirit pointed the finger at me and I was able to humble myself and simply repent of my disobedience and my battling against God's kingdom. And when I was able to put that away,
So all my questions went away. These doctrinal questions, these things, they didn't matter anymore. I was free and I was a humble child of God again. And I, of course, can't see into any of your hearts, but I can say from my heart that you're in a dangerous place.
God's kingdom is the same yesterday and today and forever and I feel like it's the same kingdom that I've been in for my whole life. The message hasn't changed and it's the way to heaven. And there's not a different way and there's not a different group within God's kingdom that can get us to heaven. So I think it is that, that it requires humbleness and repentance and to simply be in unity with God's kingdom.
And if there is such that, you know, you feel there are errors or why you felt differently at these meetings, or if you feel like God's kingdom is on the wrong path, or I guess God's kingdom isn't on the wrong path, but if you feel that North American Zion is on the wrong path, be free to speak that and share what your concern is.
But I feel it's the same path that we've known our whole life and that most of you have known the majority of your lives. And so I think that's the only way that this can go away and we can be in unity again. I don't think we're gonna solve the doctrinal differences and then we'll be in unity again.
Who's next? My own doubts since I hear the gospel.
I'll go to my go-to guy. Bruce, what do you got to say? No, be open, be free, everybody. You got something to say? Mitch, you want to get a mic, Tim? Yeah, I'll speak again.
Some of these current actions that have been taking place, you know, congregational discussions and coming to the decision of not preaching God's word at Wolf Lake in Minneapolis, I feel that that is not a good road to go down, taking action. And to me, it feels like we're getting isolated that way and we're getting
Preaching of God's word is being withheld. And I just feel that that's not the way Jesus would go about doing it. So I think if we could back up from taking those type of actions, congregation against congregation, I think going forward with those actions, I think we'll only further divide.
Versus if we can back up, I think we can hopefully have more fellowship. I agree with more fellowship. You want to pass the mic to Esa?
The last few years I have been concerned about this [what I call] spirit talk. Often it is listen to the spirit, listen to the voice, listen to the spirit, and things are decided because the spirit said so. That is true, but if it goes
But doesn't Wolf Lake also have a spirit, or Minneapolis? It seems like if we go into a situation and I say that my spirit tells this way, but your spirit tells this way, who's the judge? We are getting into an impossible situation if we start saying that my spirit reveals, but your spirit doesn't reveal that yet.
That's why the Word of God is above spirits. If you read Luther, Luther very strongly warns about this kind of spirit talk. He emphasizes always the Word comes first, always.
And then spirit, and spirit must be tied to the word of God. So I have been troubled, concerned about this. Do you see what I mean? Do you understand what I mean? And also very concerned, for example, saying that the Holy Spirit left Minneapolis. I think that's a shocking statement.
I mean, there's maybe a hundred believers there. And then somebody says, maybe without knowing any of them, the Holy Spirit left Minneapolis. Brothers, this cannot be correct. Josh, you want to hand the mic down, Mike, to Nick? I guess I would ask. Yes, sir.
How would you explain what happened in Minneapolis? Okay, I am not the right person. I am not from Minneapolis, so I would advise you to call Minneapolis members. Again, I'm from Wolf Lake, so I cannot speak, but I think it's wrong. There's no way that would be correct. We don't even know those people, and people without
Talking to those people without knowing how they believe, we cannot become judges. You guys are now unbelievers, the Holy Spirit left the congregation. But again, I would really encourage to talk to Minneapolis people about this issue. Yeah, and I don't bring it up to move this discussion towards Minneapolis, because I agree, none of us are from Minneapolis. But just the thought that you had brought up that
You know, you so strongly feel that it's wrong to make that type of a thought or that understanding is so wrong that I wanted to see what your opinion was on how you saw that situation. I would say the situation there is significant and troublesome. I won't go into that any further.
Bruce. I yield the floor to Bruce. I wasn't going to speak anymore, Josh. I yield you 30 seconds. That's all I need. Or more. I agree with Esa, but I do know the people that I do know there, I don't know who's all in that church, but the ones that I know personally, I hold them as children of God. That's all I can say. I'm done.
I think we have to acknowledge, and I think all of us do, that the situation there and what happened there is quite significant. And it wasn't an overnight, you know, that what happened there was not a result of something that just happened overnight. It's been ongoing, and how that separation came to be, I'm not going to give my opinion on it, but it's significant, very much so.
Okay, who's next? There's many, many different issues that we've been talking about. All right, go ahead. Concerning the disinviting of Wolf Lake speakers,
I would have to say that after however many years that they've been disinvited, I still don't know specifically why. And based on some of Mark's comments, it sounds like maybe some of you don't know either, other than there are some unknown differences in understanding. So I think that the approach to the disinviting was, in my opinion, it was
Inappropriate, I believe that we should have followed the church law of Christ and approached the speakers as Christ outlined and determined what the dividing issue is or if there is one before making a decision like this. Also, I guess it's for some of the reasons that have been given why Wolf Lake speakers are not accepted
In other congregations and here. And some of the reasons are very vague, such as there's something wrong with them, but I can't put a finger on it. There are concerns and confusions around them, but once again, they can't be explained. And I think this is very hurtful to anybody and specifically our speakers when these sort of accusations are made
Paul writes in Romans that the kingdom of God is not, the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but it's peace, joy, and righteousness in the Holy Ghost. Also, Paul writes that ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
So I think labeling these speakers as having, there are concerns or a problem with them, but nothing specific, I think that puts them in a place of fear, anxiety, and I think that's a dangerous thing to do. It's not promoting peace, joy, and righteousness, as Paul says that the kingdom of God is.
It's just kind of interesting that there's been, like you say, there's been some that have not asked your speaker brothers to serve and maybe in several different localities. Now there are several that have said they will not send their speakers to serve your congregation. I would just ask you brothers, have you stepped back and say, what is the problem? Is there something with me?
Or what are your feelings? I mean, it's been going on now for quite some time and there's been several meetings, I know, with Cokato and maybe Brainerd was here one time and LLC and other meetings specific to these issues and the issues don't become resolved. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are with all this, what's happened in the last year or two.
Go ahead. Right, but do you guys step back and say, what are they? Is it me? I've asked for myself personally, Mark, many times. Is there something there? And I know as far as myself personally, I'm nothing but a filthy rag before now. It's only by the grace of God that I'm here today. And I believe that.
That's how all of us, by the grace of God. Go ahead. I was just going to echo Bruce's comment that I think that we and Wolf Lake have asked that question many times, that what is the problem? And I don't believe we've gotten a clear, specific answer to it. Well, Bruce, I just talked to you because I know you very well.
Over the years we've had, there's been many, many meetings, right? And I suspect you've left many meetings feeling differently than a lot of the other people. Is that correct? Different with some, yeah. And I mentioned that earlier. And it's kind of peculiar, over the years where I've been lately, the brothers from Wolf Lake sit very silently.
Until the end, they say a few, they have their speeches, and they get up and leave. Wait, get a mic, get a mic. Now I'm speaking for myself, okay? Especially in these bigger meetings, and you've been there,
And I have visit with some of these Waaraniemi boys, and they've agreed with me that these bigger meetings do not really produce anything. There's a lot of condemnation, you know, which I tried to get away from in this meeting here. Let's just visit. But that hasn't been the case in those bigger meetings from the way I feel. So I'm just being truthful.
And I've been truthful with them guys. You know, to me, it seems like there's a presentation and we all say amen. I don't know anyone, even though we've been accused of not agreeing with the presentation. I believe that's a false statement. And then somebody there, and I don't know how to say this politely,
My way of saying it, I feel like someone starts to attack and then there's all this call for repent, repent, repent. Of what? You know, I don't believe I'm fighting God's kingdom. You know, for myself personally,
I know I've been fighting some of you all. You hear Siri? Huh? Siri just asked, are you fighting God's kingdom? Who did? Siri. I don't even know what that is. You tell him to get out of this meeting. Siri. Well, that's what it sounded like. Steve, feel free to raise your hand and I'll get you on the list.
Okay, Bruce, address your big gatherings question. The big meetings. Yeah. Okay, back a number of years ago, there was just a few that gathered with a few, a couple times, and it was suggested that maybe the sister congregation in Menahga should meet with Wolf Lake Board.
Or the Menahga board members should meet with the Wolf Lake board. And the Wolf Lake board did not want to meet with the Menahga board. They said, there's some history there. We want to meet with Rockford and Minneapolis boards at this bigger meeting. Al called me after that meeting and says, you know, I realized we shouldn't have had that big a meeting. But then,
When there was no agreement come to there, there was the suggestion that we have a national meeting. We basically had a national meeting in Monticello that year in May. There were more board members there than there's ever been to one of those meetings before from across the continent. And then when resolution wasn't reached there, there's been a request to include SRK in our meetings.
The hope a long time ago was that we would have a smaller meeting. This is the first time it's ever happened. Many years later. Just leave the mic with Bruce. No, I'm done after this year and I'm gonna sit and drink coffee.
As far as what you said about not having Menahga in that meeting, that there's some history there, I wasn't part of that conversation, but I think there was Jon Bloomquist and whoever else, and they agreed to it. I don't know what the history is between Menahga and Wolf Lake as far as anybody having these personal grudges, but that's up to them to go take care of that.
I didn't grow up up here. Oh yeah, yeah. You know what I think the problem is? We keep turning to man for answers instead of to Christ. Oh, I said I think we keep turning to man for answers when we should turn to Christ.
Right here. Right here. Isn't this the highest authority? I mean, I'm not a theologian, but I think the answers are here. I'm just saying for myself, Nick, that, you know, we've had this thing, and I've been for having Finland here and whatnot.
But, you know, Finland hasn't come. We got COVID, whatever. Maybe that's why we need to search the scriptures. I think there's a... Nick, don't pick on me. I'm not picking on you. I'm just, regarding the written word, I think there's maybe a confirmation lesson that has a picture of the Bible with a padlock on it. What opens the word? The Holy Spirit.
Exactly. So I think that's the important part is what has the Spirit revealed from that Word? And that's what we turn to. We don't turn to man, but what does the Spirit say? I don't feel that way. I feel like it's at least the prayer when we go to those meetings is that the Spirit would speak and reveal God's Word. Milo had asked about
You know, like the speakers and specifically what the concerns have been. I guess just speaking for myself on that. And, you know, I suppose maybe some of the concerns
You know, came out more so when your dad spoke at summer services in Outlook. And there was a significant majority of God's kingdom that was troubled by that sermon. And I would say my own feeling and others was this, that it was broadening the way for preventing
God's gift of children. And I don't know where that matter is today. I know what's been discussed. But I think some of the examples in there weren't according to how we understand in God's kingdom with regards to abstinence. But I feel like the...
The one thing that's, I think with regards to forgiveness and maybe kind of the other side of the issue has been, and maybe not so much so today, but there was a time, I remember visiting with a very good friend of mine, and there was this emphasis on the gospel
Not being such an important part. You know, there was discussion that, you know, Juhani Raattamaa was the one that had come up with that phrase that we use as the preached gospel, the forgiveness of sins. And this friend had even shared sermons with me from Finland anyway, where they didn't preach the gospel. And this emphasis on
On just believing. And of course, we're saved by faith and we're saved by believing, but I guess I feel like, and that may be where the emphasis question comes in is, how do I say it? At least in my lifetime in God's kingdom, I haven't wanted to rely on my own faith, my own ability to believe.
But the gospel when it's preached, that's where the strength is found. Oftentimes when you listen to a sermon, you might catch some, but when the gospel is preached, our strength is renewed. And so I feel like, and I don't know that it's so much so right now, but at least there was a time where it was such that the preached gospel as we've known it in God's kingdom was maybe diminished
There was an emphasis that it wasn't so important. And that came through in some of the sermons. And the comment made, if you believe Jesus died for your sins, you'll be saved. Well, on one hand, we certainly understand that to be true. On the other hand, there's millions of people, maybe billions, I don't know how many people in the world, but anyway, that believe Jesus died for their sins.
They believe he died on the cross for their sins, but they're not in God's kingdom. And that's the difference of God's kingdom and the rest of the world is the power to forgive sins is in God's kingdom. And so I feel like that's one thing, you know, that emphasis has changed a little bit in some of the speeches.
You know, part of it is it's such a mystery of faith, too, when the Spirit answers or when it doesn't. And there's been sermons where the Spirit hasn't answered. And it's not so that we need to have a specific reason. In fact, there's probably sermons spoken in unbelieving churches that are doctrinally correct.
I've been to heretic funerals and weddings that the sermons were doctrinally correct. But the Spirit doesn't answer. And when that happens, the kingdom gets troubled and it's uncomfortable. And that's where I think we have to trust in this Holy Spirit. That if God's children are troubled by the message, it would be better that they wouldn't speak.
You know, and it might not be that we can come up with a black and white thing that they said something wrong, but that we trust that the Spirit does move in the congregation. And I don't know if there's other things, but I felt like I had to say how I felt about at least some of those sermons and some of the concerns that I've had. And I want to say also that I was at the reveal for Arlene.
And [Darwin served] there. To me, it was a very foreign sounding message. There was no call to God's kingdom. It talked about being ready for God, before God and knowing Jesus. But there wasn't a call to God's kingdom and the gospel wasn't preached. And so these are the kinds of things that do cause concern.
And I think it's important that we care for even those brothers and for their own faith. It's not important that they speak. It's important that they're cared for in God's kingdom and that they can make it to heaven. Mark stepped out, so I'll just step up to my term.
Just the one thing, correct, or I shouldn't say correction, but probably the message didn't get put forth from either side of the discussion, but it took place in this very room where Darwin's sermon was discussed, and it was agreed that there was nothing incorrect in what Darwin spoke at that summer services by both the pastoral committee and Wolf Lake. It was understood.
Hopefully you guys don't mind me speaking, but it's been great to sit and learn and listen. But what bothers me to the core
When is a sinner or a man forgiven? Darwin has asked for offense, for everything, and it keeps coming up. I mean, to me, where's your forgiving heart? If you did a sin and everybody, every year they keep talking about your sin, I mean, that's terrible. Can't we forgive him? So is that, are you, I guess that's,
Was it taken care of? If it is, I'm happy to hear that sermon. And then what bothers me also is, yeah, he has a firm fence, but the other thing is that there is a place, and we've talked to many Finns, that in a Christian marriage, a couple knows if there's mental illness or physical illness, that there is that option.
And it just bothers me that we're just going off like they're going to practice birth control. And I know Darwin said seven times, because there was a preacher that counted how many times he said, we are not promoting birth control. So why do we keep talking about it? And that's what's so hurtful.
And then what bugs me, to be honest, is that this term, oh, you want to broaden the way, you diminish the gospel.
You don't put sin away. Well, who is any of us to ask? I don't go around asking people, or you diminish the gospel. I don't know of anybody. I don't live in sin. My circle of friends don't live in sin. So why is this? It's one of these same things like forgiveness. It's just a bad accusation.
Just a few comments now. Yeah, these sermons, I would really love to know what sermons are in question now. I have asked that before, these from Darwin or Phil. So I would like to listen to those and hear myself. If they are wrong, they are wrong. I mean, I would just like to know what they are. Secondly, back to this spirit talk.
Let me read some of what Luther says. In matters pertaining to the spoken outward word, we must firmly maintain that God grants His Spirit or grace to no one, except through or with the preceding outward word.
On this, we must insist in order to protect ourselves against the enthusiasts that these spirits who boast that they have the spirit without and before the word, and then proceed to judge, explain, and stress scripture or the spoken word as they please.
Another one. The word, which is called the word of Christ, must be the rule and touchstone by which the church is to be discerned and by which it must govern itself. There must be a certain rule by which a church shall measure its conduct. It will not do for individuals to formulate their own ideas of conduct accordingly
And then say that the church is led by the Holy Spirit. Secondly, it is shown here that this word precedes or must be spoken beforehand and that afterwards the Holy Spirit works to the word. One must not reverse the order.
And dream of a Holy Spirit who works without the word and before the word, but one who comes with and through the word and goes no farther than the word goes. And one more. The ultimate aim of the devil. The devil has no better strategy to conquer us than to draw us from the word
To the spirit, one should stay by the word and not grant people the spirit without the word. So we can see how the spirit must be without the word. And we know that the word of God, that's, it's above everything. That's the highest authority, as we know, even from reformation. Pat.
I suppose it's getting a little late here but you know I've sat here and I've listened to I guess all the speeches and when Nick spoke I wondered that what is really he talking about because I haven't heard anything here tonight that is such a great divide that we've gotten where we're at. Now Nick did speak to, I'm not trying to pick on you Nick, but that
That there would be repentance and I think that's what your word was, but I hadn't heard anything that got us to this place yet. So it puzzles me then that our speakers were disinvited. And I would hope, I don't know,
Based on your letter that you sent to us requesting this meeting, I guess I don't know if you brothers have decided not to send to our congregation to come preach. I would hope that is not the case. And I really think then that we could make steps forward.
But clearly, as I have told Mark, if this action is such that you brothers choose to do this, I'm not sure how we sit together like this many times to try to, how do we resolve it? So I would hope that you haven't made that decision. And if you haven't, you haven't told us that you would maybe
Back off that and continue to send and that we could continue to visit because it seems to me this has been helpful to me. Neil and Ron, do either one of you want to speak at all? This is Neil. Can you hear me?
Yes. I do want to say something about the sermon that was in question from 2015 Summer Services. And it is true that in the sermon Darwin said that we're not talking about birth control
We're not promoting birth control, but the example that he gave in that sermon was not talking about mental illness or not talking about some other sickness, but if a husband is going to be away for a long time, maybe it'd be okay
For the couple to refrain from or to have abstinence before he leaves. And the only reason would be that a child not be born during that time when he's gone. Well, I'd like to say that it wasn't like the LLC board that was...
Whose ears were pricked during that sermon because they were in the annual meeting at the time, but many listeners were concerned by that sermon. And when I listened to it, I actually was in the room and when that sermon was kept, I didn't hear the part that was offensive
But when I listened to the recording afterwards, it did sound like birth control, even though he had said, we're not talking about birth control. But you know what bothered me most was that even though that message was out on the internet where anybody could hear,
There were those who wanted or were angry at the fact that it was removed from the archives. And there was another thing that I heard that there might've been people out there who liked the message that maybe it was okay to refrain.
From intercourse, if the husband's going to be away for a long time. So, you know, it seems like the rumbling happened after that time and the differences have become more public since then.
And I think there were many in the Wolf Lake congregation who were supporting that sermon and wondering why it would be removed from the archives when it had that foreign message. And I'd like to ask also, can I hear the gospel?
Hey, Neil, you there? Neil? Bruce here, can you hear me? Yeah, I unmuted or muted it, so yeah, I'm here. Mark mute you? I know I'm muted. I know I need to be muted, brother. I'm going home after this, okay? What? Okay, you just listen.
Okay. There was people that agreed with that sermon, disagreed with that sermon. We've hashed it out. I talked to both your brother Keith and Jouko both more than once, who said there was nothing wrong with that sermon after it was taken down. I wasn't on the board. Obviously they disagreed with the taking down. We had three meetings.
Took the third meeting where we all said amen to that, that we agree that if you're using abstinence for birth control, it's wrong, it's sin. And we all said amen. Jim Frantti stood up and we all said amen. All I can say, brother, is you forgive that brother from the heart and get over it. Can you hear me?
Okay, well, I'm gonna check with those brothers. I've never heard any of them say that that sermon was okay. And I'll have to say that it sure sounded to me like birth control when he said what I said about a husband being away for a long time. And maybe it'd be okay if they refrained from intercourse
Before he left. But I'll talk to those brothers and see that what you're saying is true or not. Okay, then when you get up here, you come over for sauna. Sure. Okay. Leland.
Grab a mic, whatever it is. I'd like to speak about the ministers and the possibility of not sending ministers. Where do you think we will hear the word? If I come here, as I did tonight, and you accept me, is the point if I move?
It's a monologue that all the matters are fixed. I don't see that that's really the case. You asked about how do we feel, about confused, uncertain, and don't know what's wrong with us. I don't know what to fix. Because I go to Wolf Lake, in some ways I feel like I'm labeled, but I don't know what problem. You speak of repentance, of what?
I actually want to get to heaven. I think we have to be a brother's keeper. Show me the way. If you don't send the ministers, where am I supposed to hear the word? How do I fix what's wrong with me personally? Just simply showing up here on Sunday wouldn't fix what apparently is wrong. Make sure my soul is cared for.
And my salvation is assured. Scott. Just a couple nights ago, I was visiting one of my little boys. Before we went to bed, he said, Dad, if every child is born as a believer,
When are they not? And he's only like in fourth grade. He said, if everybody's born in this world with faith and they can believe, how do we know when they're not believing? And I said, you know, I remember having those same questions as you.
When I was little, I was probably a little bit older than him, but... And then I told him, I said, you know what you... I said, it's a good question. It's a good question for the whole world. Because they ask,
What can I do to be saved? I said that when some people leave faith, they lose faith because of sin and they fall into the world. And it's because they are drawn away from their childhood faith. It's hard for my heart, my mind to wrap around that whole idea, but we believe that all children are born with faith. And I said, I can't answer it when, there's no time. I said, there's some kids that,
Like my little brother, Kurt, who's Down syndrome. Maybe he never would have lost faith. But I said, I said, when those, I said, when those children fall into the world and they lose faith, I said, they need to seek for God's kingdom. Just like we do. As believers, we still need to continue to seek for God's kingdom.
I know we're in it and we can be happy to be here and thankful that we're here in God's kingdom. It's one of those things as, like I told him, I said, when we're born into a believing home, it's a special gift that we have and maybe we will never understand it all the way like somebody that repents from the world. I said, but in the world, there's a lot of people that believe in Jesus.
And they want to get to heaven. And I said, just continue to keep searching for God's kingdom, always. Turn to God's kingdom. It's where the spirit is. It's the only place. Like,
It's the only place where forgiveness of sins is found. There's forgiveness in the world. There's forgiveness from people to people. We have to have that forgiveness for our neighbor. We have to love our neighbor. We have to be Christ-like, exactly. We wanna be forgiving.
And I just thought about it, you know, like it's one of them questions I remember when I was a young boy wondering, well, when would someone not be able to be a believer, you know? But I just feel like this, it kind of pertains to this idea that, you know, like it's in God's kingdom where the spirit is. In the congregation is where the spirit is found. That's the only place where the forgiveness of sins is found.
And I was remembering, I was visiting with my dad not very long ago about his struggles back when he was a speaker for a short time. And I was visiting with him about that. And it was a confusing time for him even. And he remembers, you know,
His pride was great when he was speaking, but he didn't for sure know why they were concerned for him. And he said, the only thing I remember is that they had love for my undying soul and that I wanted to remain in God's kingdom. And that's where his heart has been ever since.
And I just think of those things and they've helped me. We don't always have to have all the specific answers, but I think if we're humble and we want to believe, we can just simply ask. And we want to remain in God's kingdom. Can I hear the gospel?
It is starting to get late. I don't know how long we want to continue, but there's a couple items that I've heard about and I just want to put on the table. One is, I understand there's several that are participating in Halloween from Wolf Lake. Is that true? Any of you guys know, is it true or not?
And another question I've heard is, and it was asked at the Southern meeting in first of October about confirmation schools, that Wolf Lake had two, not one, but two confirmation schools last summer on their own. You guys, anyone wanna speak to that?
These are the questions I think they get left on the table always and nobody speaks to them. So I think it's important that we speak to it. Pat. I suppose you may or may not believe me, but I guess I don't know about the Halloween topic. As far as the confirmation, there again, I don't have a confirmant, haven't had one.
I know that the congregation, and you do know this, Mark, because we did talk about this, that the congregation did not host the confirmation, that some individuals did. Was there one, was there two? Honestly, I can't even answer that question. I guess I have to leave it there, but we did not as a congregation host confirmation.
We even did discuss it as I told you that, and on the congregation, we did discuss it, but it was not done. But don't you understand how it raises a lot of questions when word gets out that there's a couple of confirmations, special ones in Wolf Lake, and then the question gets asked and nobody will speak to it. I understand it. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I am aware that
Al had talked to John many times, I'll back up, maybe not many, at least once, twice, three times, I don't know, about doing it. And I believe they even asked for the confirmation material from the LLC, but now I'm speaking, I don't know. I know me and you have visited about it and you kind of said the same thing, you're unaware of it.
But yeah, you know, and that, like the Halloween deal, I've heard that, you know, it's fairly widely participated with members from Wolf Lake. And that's why I figured here's the place to ask. And if you don't know about it and none of you brothers know or none of your families participated, then, you know, we just let it go. Well, I guess I'll say this. If my kids did go to Dan and Nicole's or something for Halloween and that's to get some candy or something, I mean, if that's a problem,
Then I guess, I don't even know if they did, but if they did, I would hope that's not really a problem here. Yeah, I don't know, but I just think all this,
Conversation is all connected. I just, I can't help but here think about this, you know, these questions that we've heard, the question I raised earlier about George and Keith, nobody's spoken to this Halloween question, which has bothered a lot of us here. This confirmation question, like we've been, Pat, you've explained
As far as you know, it's been bothersome for us. And I mentioned fellowship and how I've had this thing, this thought settling in my mind a lot, and I still do. I still, I just don't, I can't explain my thoughts even. I just, but I,
I just, you know, like when Leland was speaking and pleading, and I felt for Darwin and Phil personally, I'm a speaker, I felt awful for them. I have. It's hard enough to go speak with our own, you know, flesh and fears that we carry, but I have to say that, you know, here with the Menahga,
Speakers and board, I just share such an awesome bond of unity, and I was just thinking about those words of Paul to the Galatians, you know, love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance, and that, it's just so evident. And I don't say I don't share that with you guys, you know, but I have to say this when I look at the other fruits
It seems like in a lot of conversations I've had personally, even with some of your members throughout the years, and maybe some of you even, yeah, some of your board, that there's been this strife, a little bit of strife. I mean, it's not like we arm wrestle, but it's there. How does it speak to us? You know, it's that question mark. Leland, I welcome you guys to come to Menahga. We welcome you to come listen to God's word here.
But this question, Pat, is difficult for us right now because of this, I would say. We so much want to be in the same fellowship, the same unity as Paul speaks again. We so much do. I so much want to have Darwin and Phil speak here. Pat, I do, from the bottom of my heart. But I just...
I have to be open and honest with you. There's something there. We've heard from other congregations who we are 100% unified. No questions of the worry the sheep have heard a different voice. Can I put my finger on it? I can't personally. We've heard that. We are united with Cokato.
You know, for the most part with Elk River, Brainerd. We share the same unity of faith. I don't know, those are just some things on my heart here at the end. And I don't know, I still want to be, I need to ask and have all my sins forgiven. Dan.
When Scott was sharing his experiences and questioning his mind, and well, first of all, I wouldn't really consider it a foolish question that we would ask, well, when does a young child in a believing home cease to be a child of God?
And of course, as he said, nobody can determine that. But the thought comes to me is that if we look at it in a natural sense, if someone isn't given natural food, how long do they survive? If someone doesn't get spiritual food in an unbelieving home, how long does that child have faith? They're the enemy of the soul.
Begins to preach to those unbelieving children in unbelieving homes. And unless God can call them, soon that innocence of childhood disappears. We don't know when, but God still calls. And we can even pray for unbelievers and the call goes out, seek the kingdom of God. But we don't need to,
Agonize over that question because there's no answer to it, but just using that natural question or example of not having food. There's no food, spiritual food out there, so naturally they're all eventually going to succumb to the wiles of the enemy. We don't understand the wisdom of God, but we know that
It's God's word says it's just a few that find his kingdom. We don't understand that either. God's wisdom is much higher than ours. But I've also had some thoughts on this calling of sharing of speakers. And there was an article I read recently, I think it came out of...
Out of the Finnish brother speaking about situation in Finland where they have much more sharing of speakers among congregations. And it's not unheard of that when there's a concern over one of the speakers perhaps of his understanding that they don't call them until they can
Have that matter clarified. And so it's certainly not cutting somebody off when we put a pause on that. And we're not saved by speaking. We're saved by faith. And my concern as a speaker is that I would not preach incorrectly and lead
Souls away from God's kingdom with my preaching, and that's why speakers depend on active listeners that listen with the Holy Spirit to see if there's something that is not right there that they would, in love, address that matter. And also, I see that Esa left again, but he placed so much emphasis on, he's still here. Okay, good.
But we need to be a little cautious when we, how would we put it, when we rely on the Word and first and then the Spirit. Because I would say that, you know, the Apostle John on the Isle of Patmos was given instructions to send letters and I think almost all those letters said,
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit sayeth to the churches. And also you come back to Philip and the eunuch. That eunuch was studying God's Word so carefully, but he didn't understand it. He needed that Spirit. As Randy said, or Nick, I said, said about unlocking God's Word, it's done through the Spirit.
The Spirit and the Word are inseparable. They're both part of that triune Godhead. And we can't set the Spirit aside and say, let's read the Word and come back and bring the Spirit in, because the Spirit makes it alive. And without that Spirit, it's a spiritless, dead devotion. The world is full of those spiritless devotions.
We're going to be careful when we talk about the role of the Holy Spirit, because it's an office of the Holy Spirit. And when we look at even the Creed, which the children learn in Sunday school, and we revisit about that third article, the Creed, and it talks about the office of the Holy Spirit, how it calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth and preserves it in union.
With Jesus Christ and the true faith. So it's an integral part. You cannot separate the word from the spirit and God through the spirit enlightens his word to us. So it's good to remember that the spirit was left here for us to enlighten us. And in that same, in that idea of sharing speakers, one thought that I,
I have had... The enemy of the soul is even active there, I think. His goal is to divide us. And when we heard of the difficulties and the confusion and the activities there in Minneapolis and how
God's Holy Spirit, we believe, directed some of those to go elsewhere for their spiritual strengthening and how there's a vast majority, or maybe, I don't know what the
How to describe the situation there, but we know that many, many congregation boards have sent letters on their intent of waiting till these matters are resolved when the speakers and boards are concerned about
About the situation there, and we might want to, from our carnal portion, look at someone being deprived of the opportunity to listen to God's word, because speakers aren't being sent there. But that's, in this day and age, certainly something we don't have to worry about.
This pandemic has shown us that we can have God's word in our pocket, in our virtual services every Sunday, and we can listen to some in the morning and some in the afternoon, some in the evening, depending on the time zone and so forth. So it's not something that we need to worry about, the lack of God's word being spoken. But the point I was going to make is that now when
So many of those congregations have made a decision to put a pause on sending speakers to Minneapolis. When we think about how the, maybe even the enemy of the soul is using that situation to divide us even further.
Because the situation in Minneapolis requires care of the spirit. As I understand it, I don't have all the details, but I can trust that what I've heard from those that I feel are akin to the spirit, that there's matters there that aren't right and they need to be corrected. But if we as Menahga decided, well, you know,
We don't really care what some of those other congregations have decided and we're gonna go anyway to Minneapolis and ignore kind of what so many of those other congregations have done. To me, it seems like I'm really driving a wedge a little further. Shouldn't we be more concerned about those matters there that haven't been corrected in Minneapolis and try to help
With the gifts that God has given to resolve that issue and to seek a resolution of those matters that have caused such great concern and damage in Minneapolis. It would be good if we could join together with those that have taken that position rather than being critical that someone is not sending speakers, but
I don't think, I think the issue of whether speakers are sent or not, not sent is maybe just a little bit of a diversion because there's plenty of gifts and plenty of opportunities for anyone to hear God's word and even have fellowship. But not being critical, but that's my observation and my feeling is that by not, or should I say by
By going against what so many of the congregations have decided and I would have to say in sincerity for the concern of those matters that it would be good if we don't, I wouldn't muddy the waters, I would say, by
Trying to take side because there's only one Holy Spirit and we should all try to join into that spirit and not maybe point fingers at someone that doesn't agree with us. But there's serious matters there and we hope and pray that God can yet enlighten that situation and souls that have been deceived
And come on to repentance and be once again united in peace and love of God's kingdom. Okay, Dave, and then Mark Haataja. I'll try to be brief here, but just some of my thoughts regarding God's word, the Holy Spirit,
I mean, I understand how God's word is the highest authority, but I feel like we need to allow the Holy Spirit to work also. We can't like Nick use the example of the lock. I mean, without the Holy Spirit to unlock that God's word, we can't understand. And
You know, as I have two brothers who are not believing they're part of the Spruce Grove Church, and I've had discussions with them over the years, and we know that the Holy Spirit doesn't reside there. And it's, you know, well, the Bible doesn't say this, and it doesn't say you can't do that, and it doesn't say we can't do this,
You know, that you can't participate in that and you can't have a TV in your house. So that's what, you know, this is what God's word says. And so that's where I just, I feel like, you know, I'm a poor example. Cause I, I mean, I should study God's word more and the scriptures, but
I rely on me I'm not a reader for one thing I don't read a lot I don't it's it's just not my deal but you know I I try to read and I study for you know God's word for you know whether it's for a Bible class or songs or Sunday school lessons and and that's good because it it
It gives me opportunity to pause around God's word and study and read the Bible. But I rely on God's kingdom and the Holy Spirit to lead and for me to understand. And I think we can think of many examples in this world where God's kingdom through the Holy Spirit
Reveals these understandings to us, whether it's, you know, participating in sports or going to a rodeo or, you know, some of these, you know, worldly pleasures of the world and these environments where
Yeah, God's kingdom and through the Holy Spirit, I believe, has revealed that. And just seeing, you know, my brothers who were raised in God's kingdom and they have become lost in unbelief without the Holy Spirit. And it's, they,
You know and just recently not so long ago I mean it's just baffling how they don't understand and albeit you know some of our discussions are they don't last very long because we disagree. We can't have a long conversation and and talk about God's word and because we disagree almost immediately and so
And then, you know, I know I brought up the Halloween and trick-or-treating, you know, concern at the meeting in January. And I believe it's pretty widespread, you know, through Wolf Lake. You know, some of my kids, you know, had, you know, talking, you know, I suppose at school or whatever. And, you know, it's, I mean,
Yeah, it might be difficult for me then to try to explain, you know, to my children that, well, you know, why we don't go trick-or-treating, you know. And, you know, I just simply trust that God's kingdom through the Holy Spirit has said, you know what, that's not a place for a child of God and it's not an activity we want to participate in.
But that's all. I'll just be brief because I know it's getting late and I don't know what time Mark wants to wrap it up here, but there is still a lot of food though. So maybe he's saying, well, once the food's gone, then we'll call it a night. But them are just a few of my thoughts from the discussion. I've had a number of thoughts and try to put them together here, but I have a thought with regard to the confirmation.
And it's just simply this thought that when this has caused so much, even this issue caused a lot of turmoil in God's kingdom, that don't you brothers feel a responsibility to visit about it as a board, as a congregation? It seems pretty, to me, it feels like it's troublesome to say, well, I don't, you know,
Pat, you're the chairman of the board. You don't know what happened. Isn't there a responsibility there to even visit about it and to try to speak to it? I don't mean to try to put it out in an accusing way, but I've been attending board meetings here, and when concerns come up, they're freely visited about. And if there needs to be follow-up with things, these things happen.
They don't always happen. It's not like it has to happen overnight, but I'm considering Esa's comments about the word. We consider God's word, even his written word, as it says even in the scriptures, that what's recorded there is recorded through men of God that have been inspired by the Holy Spirit.
And when we speak of God's word being of the highest authority through faith, we're speaking of that living word of God. How is the word living? It's only made alive through the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit, where does it dwell?
It dwells amongst the flock of believers, that precious flock of sheep whom Jesus speaks of. And he says, I know my own and my own know me. When we,
We can visit with other believers, some whom we haven't known, in different places. I'm sure many have experienced it, but quickly we can, in a few minutes, discuss matters of faith, and our spirit says amen, and we know that they believe the same. Thinking also of pondering Leland's question,
Leland's question, you know, faith is a gift. We can't be taught living faith. We can't, through instruction somehow, figure out how to believe. It is a grace gift. But I remember also the teachings of my youth, and still that teaching that's heard in God's kingdom
That simple instruction to keep faith and good conscience. And even in these times, this has come under attack. Keeping faith and good conscience, that you know. Now you're bringing your own works and your own efforts in front of grace or above grace.
I believe that this age-old instruction is from the Holy Spirit. It's instruction which our parents have given with much love because they also have experienced that even that the effects of sin, how it separates us from God.
It means to simply believe and live of the gospel. The gospel which flows from God's kingdom that you can, as often as you need of it, you can freely go to even ask of that precious message that can I believe even my sins and doubts forgiven. I have to say I've had to live of this
Gospel. My flesh oftentimes even, even in the service of God's kingdom comes out through many doubts and I have to often ask for even to believe those doubts forgiven.
Sometimes, maybe it feels like sometimes I suffer from these things more than others, but I've been encouraged to simply continue to believe and put those matters away. I believe that when the gospels preach that even those doubts
All their sins are washed away in the sea of grace. So I would encourage that this message is, throughout my life, been from God's kingdom, and it still is, to keep faith and good conscience. Put sin away. Believe all sins and doubts forgiven. In Jesus' name and blood.
And for myself, I have to say that you've been here tonight. My focus has been on having a turn to serve in Monticello this weekend. I ask that from each one of you, if you can, can I hear the gospel? Can I believe my doubts and sins forgiven?
Okay, the hour is getting late. How long do we want to go? Yeah, I think it would be nice to meet again. You know, my recommendation is maybe we'd wait till after the
Big national meeting coming up first days of May. And I would encourage each and every one of us to try and participate in that meeting. I think it's very, very important. And it'll be a Friday, Saturday meeting. So try and schedule that you can participate. Anyone else have anything? Otherwise, Pat, you're agreeable that we'll just try, me and you'll try to schedule something later?
Is that what you brothers want? Scott. Just going back to this thought about meeting, it was really nice to have this tonight. I kind of worried if we could have it sometime sooner than later. And I thought back to like a couple of years ago when kind of the thought came out that until we meet,
You know, when that happened, I felt like for sure we'd have a meeting sooner than this, but I'm still thankful that we have it now. And I think that, like Dan was saying earlier, I mean, I've been in conversations with several people outside the board even, you know, and I think that our focus sometimes goes to
Like this issue of serving or not being, serving or not sending. And I think that, like Dan said, I really feel like we all need to focus on if we want to help those people, wherever they are suffering. If we want to help, then let's not make that the subject. I think that that will be taken care of
If we can find the unity again, and those things happened after some of these discussions started, and I feel like they've become like, no doubt that they're an issue, you know, like no doubt they're an issue now, but it feels like they're not the reason. It's like a,
It's like a symptom of, yeah, like a symptom of what has happened in the past. And I just, I think as a board, we've talked about this, and congregation, and I visited with some of my, even siblings and friends, and they've asked, you know, like, so are you guys gonna meet soon or whatever? I'm like, well, we're hoping that it can be soon.
And I've always just had that hope that it'll be soon. And my concern was, I told my father-in-law one time, I said, if you tell Wolf Lake Brothers to call a meeting, and I don't mean this in any proud way, I said, we'll be there. I know it. I know we'll be there.
I wish that desire, like I was, you can't put it somewhere, but I was hoping that the desire would be just like ours, that we'd want, like you'd want, like call a meeting and say, let's visit, you know? And I've just had my wonders about those things, like why it's taken so long, but I really am thankful that we were able to have this evening tonight to visit about some of these matters, and I look forward to even more.
Okay, anyone else? Anyone else at all? Otherwise, we'll wind it down and we'll try and reschedule another one. Okay, if there's nothing more, why don't we all join together in the Lord's benediction?
The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen. Dear brothers, can I hear that gospel? Can I also hear that gospel?
Okay, help yourself to coffee, goodies, whatever, before you guys go.
Thank you for joining us.
I don't know. I don't know.
I said at some point, I don't know. I mean, we could.
We're all here.