LLC Continent-wide Meeting, Monticello, May 7–8, 2021

Eric Jurmu: welcome. Song 127.

Ray Waaraniemi: opening prayer and devotion.

Eric Jurmu [9:38 am] Welcome again.

Next are the congregation reports.

Alaska [Kevin Byman]: On behalf of the board in Alaska, I want to relay the greetings of love and God's peace from the believers there. We have experienced a time of spiritual peace and unity of the Holy Spirit in our home congregation. We have largely been spared from any significant spiritual battles. We can only say thanks to God for this. We know that the enemy of souls will work ever harder as the End of Time draws near to sow discord and division in the congregation. We have been able to host many visiting ministers and have had special services in our home congregation over the years. Also, through advancements in technology on the internet we have also been able to hear God's word spoken from all across North American Zion. In most of these sermons, we have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd. It is our prayer that we can all stay humbly believing as children in a kingdom of children. We also want to accept with believing hearts that which God wills for His kingdom here on earth. We ask that you remember all of the believers in Alaska, as we journey toward our Heavenly home. [47:37]

Brainerd, Minnesota [Steve Collette]: At the Brainerd Laestadian Lutheran Church we have openly discussed the current spiritual matters and conditions. With a few exceptions, the congregation is of one mind and spirit with the teachings in the work of the LLC, including being in unity with the SRK in the SFC. However, we are concerned about those who have departed from the age-old teachings of living Christianity. They have been overcome with ideas and understanding that come from their carnal mind. Members in the congregation have been disturbed by various new teachings. We continue to believe that the teachings of living Christianity have not changed, as they are based on the holy Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. [Heb. 13:8] It is our hope and prayer in our upcoming discussions that anyone who has erred would come unto repentance from any wrong understanding. [48:47]

Eric Jurmu: Anyone from Coastal California? We will go to Cokato.

Cokato, Minnesota [Mike Forstie]: Our experience about the spiritual issues and divisions in North America Zion has affected our congregation. It can be summarized in two main areas. First, we have not experienced unity of spirit with the Wolf Lake board and speakers. In 2018, the CLLC board asked one of the Wolf Lake ministers [Phil Alajoki] not to keep his scheduled rotation service in Cokato. We have experienced fruits from a contrary spirit since this decision. It has brought many of the issues into light. It has been a time of meeting – and an attempt to meet – with the brothers and speakers in Wolf Lake. There have been one-on-one conversations, and forgiveness [has been preached]. Yet today, we feel that there is no unity between the Wolf Lake and Cokato boards and speakers. Secondly, we have experienced that a number of members openly began to battle in the congregation. They made public comments at Bible class, discussion evenings and private conversations have revealed the division. We have experienced fruits of a contrary spirit in this issue, also. The members who openly battled in our congregation have left Cokato and joined the Minneapolis congregation. When one board member and two speakers visited with some of these former members, they stated that the CLLC speakers were speaking the wrong doctrine. At the close of that visit, all of the participants mutually agreed that we do not believe in the same way. Since then, there has not been repentance from this contrary spirit. But our desire remains the same. With much love and patience, these concerns can be cared for through the gospel to help all struggling travelers to one day reach heaven’s shore. We have prayed and sorrowed over these matters. We have tried to remember to be gentle, patient and tender-hearted. Even in this we have failed. We all need forgiveness through the blood of Our Savior Jesus. May God keep us all in the place of a child, knowing our own failings and unsuccessfulness. Yet we endeavor to preserve faith and a good conscience. [51:42]

Phil SIljander [Coastal California]: On behalf of the Coastal California Congregation, I would like to relate greetings to the gathering. We do not have a report to deliver. Our prayer is that our heavenly Father Will lead and guide and bless our gathering in the next couple of days. Thank you. [52:22]

Detroit, Michigan [Paul Huhta]: I would like to bring greetings and prayers from our congregation to this meeting. We have perhaps been first confronted with some of these issues in 2018. There have been somes differences in some of these issues in our congregation. But for the most part, it seems that we are peaceful. It is our greatest hope and prayer that all of Zion could be in unity. That is about it. I didn't have any formal report. [53:40]

Eric Jurmu: Dunblane is next. They are online. They did send a brief report for us to read from here

Dunblane: Our congregation in Dunblane has not felt a lot of the effects of the different spirit that is evident in God's Kingdom today. We have families with close ties with some who are struggling in their understanding and even battling against the teaching of God's word. Despite these close ties, the Desire with most is to remain believing as the children of God have always believed. We feel blessed that we have not had the need to address these issues in our congregation, other than to keep them informed of the situation in other areas. We have openly discussed some of the differences that have arisen. It seems like there is no desire to listen to a different teaching, but to only listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit and the teaching of God's Word. We thank God that He continues to protect our congregation. We pray for his blessing. We pray on behalf of those who struggle in faith. We also offer prayers on behalf of those who are on the front lines of this battle. May God give strength and patience in this battle. [55:05]

Elk River, Minnesota [Loren Hillukka]: Our congregation in Elk River has been largely shielded from direct conflict in the congregation. However, as others have expressed, many [people] in Elk River have personal connections and ties to dear loved ones who have been battling. There were also several notable discussions where our congregation heard and felt a different message and voice from members who attended from Minneapolis. The voice did not bring peace. In September and October of last year, we received new members into our congregation. They were weary travelers who left the Minneapolis congregation, seeking peace and strength for their faith. The members who came to Elk River Integrated seamlessly into our congregation. No conflict came with them. We have felt the unity of the Holy Spirit with these travelers. Many, many prayers and greetings from the Elk River congregation come here today. [56:40]

Flagstaff, Arizona [Ryan Kariniemi]: I would like to extend greetings of love and peace from the believers in Flagstaff. As we know, the devil goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. There [in Flagstaff] are yet a few believers who are endeavoring to travel as believers. We recently moved into a new building. One of our members decided to build a cross. The cross has so much meaning. It brings to mind what Christ has done for us and what he has taught us. What a reward we will have if we continue to believe in him. It says in Hebrews 12 verse 2, “Looking unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith.” He is the beginning and he is the end. Through no merits of our own, we can own the hope of Heaven, because Jesus suffered and died on Golgotha. Jesus also left us with one command: To love one another. Luther says that the greatest act of love is preaching the gospel – the Gospel message of salvation to all people. From Flagstaff, I would like to say: Let us show love one to another and to do good to all men, especially to those of the household of faith. [Gal. 6] Personally, I would like to extend a welcome to anyone who is passing by. We certainly appreciate visits. [59:05]

Flathead Valley, Montana [Dan Grangroth]: First, I would like to bring greetings of love and God's peace from our congregation. Many wanted their prayers to be sent to this meeting. We have been fortunate enough to experience peace in our congregation in Montana. We have spoken about and discussed these matters openly in the congregation. We have had much unity. However, like Dunblane mentioned, through personal conversations it seems as though there are some people with personal connections who have had a few questions that have caused some concerns. Overall, it has been peaceful. We pray for all in God's Kingdom. [1:00:33]

Ishpeming, Michigan [Mike Kuopus]: I bring you greetings from Ishpeming. We had a meeting on Wednesday evening to go over some of these matters with the congregation. It appears that there are some people who are troubled and have distrust for the LLC and our local board. I want to say to you brothers on the LLC board and the office staff. The vast majority of the believers in Ishpeming support you and pray for you. Thank you for the service of love that you do. I was also sent here with many prayers. Many people in Ishpeming are remembering us here today. Many hearts spoke out on Wednesday about the desire to get to heaven. May God bless our days here. May the Holy Spirit open our hearts and lead us on the path to heaven. [1:02:00]

Gillette, Wyoming: none

Glendale, Arizona [Keith Kesti]: Greetings of God's peace from the believers in the Glendale congregation. As we began a new congregation almost eight years ago, our members felt a strong bond of unity as we shared the responsibility of organizing congregation life to support God's work. New friendships were fostered as we worked and served each other as escorts in faith. We had the common goal of reaching heaven. Over the past three years, we have slowly experienced a change in our congregation. This change began with spiritual topics and things being discussed among individuals, which began to cause unease. These topics and themes were discussed at board and congregation levels. The Holy Spirit was present during these discussions. As time passed, we continued to have discussions and shared our concerns with sister congregations in Arizona and Colorado in our joint Southwest board meetings. The enemy of souls has made inroads into our congregation. He has sowed seeds of distrust and doubt. He worked diligently to break the unity that we once felt so strongly toward each other. For our congregation in Glendale, this has been exacerbated by the fact that we do not have a place to meet as a congregation due to covid restrictions from our public school rental. Despite this, God continues to take care of us. We have been invited to share Phoenix's facilities. There is joy in serving each other during these trying times. We pray that God will help us to understand his will and protect our congregation. We want to be obedient to the mother congregation, so each one of us can be preserved in faith, serving one another until we reach that Heavenly home. Thank you. [1:04:10]

Tim Niskanen [Illinois]: Our small congregation sent greetings of love and God's peace. We had hopes that God through His spirit could move the hearts of people and keep them humble. Most important thing is to hear the gospel and to believe the gospel, so we would not battle against the spirit and God's Kingdom. [1:05:09]

Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada [Allen Pirness]: I asked at our board meeting this week ... trying to connect [1:06:30] We have not experienced any different teaching in our congregation. We have experienced as everyone else in Zion. When one member suffers, all of the members suffer. This time has caused the believers in Lethbridge to worry and wonder what is going on in different congregations. The continuation of services in Minneapolis has brought direct questions to some of our board members and speakers. We are wondering why that [service activity] is continuing. Also, visits with other friends and family members in other areas has brought to light real concerns and differences that are out there in Zion right now. I have received messages from congregation members in Lethbridge this week. This meeting is being remembered by the believers in Lethbridge with the prayer that we could all hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. That is all that I had. [1:08:00]

Longview, Washington [Nels Plough]: I would like to bring greetings of love and God's peace from Longview. This is Nels Plough. While we have not had the same level of conflict and discord in our congregation, certainly many members have close ties and family members that have deeply involved in the difficult discussions in the Midwest. All those things have washed over into our congregation In conversation and in some of our congregation meetings. The concerns are certainly there and run deep. Along with that, there are many prayers from our congregation for this meeting that God would grant understanding in all of these matters, and that no one would be lost to the devil. [1:09:15]

Menahga, Minnesota [report on May 7, 2021] [Jon A Bloomquist]: Greetings of love and God's peace from our congregation in Menahga. The circumstances in Menahga are such that our board and current speakers have been of one mind. Likewise, the Menahga congregation has been of one mind with maybe a few exceptions. There are some people who may be confused about issues. But the discussions in our congregation have been at peace and enjoyed unity. There hasn't been much in the way of question or dispute with regard to the various doctrinal questions or issues that have arisen in the recent years. So, we have not spent a lot of time discussing those issues. The LLC board and staff have enjoyed the support and confidence of our congregation, board and speakers. Likewise, we have been of one mind with the other Minnesota congregations apart from Wolf Lake and Minneapolis. Our visits with the Wolf Lake board since 2016 have often been difficult. Even when we were close on some issues, both parties recognized that there is some difference there. Sometimes we have characterized it in this way. It's like you have two pianos in a room. They are not in tune. Even though you hit the same notes, it does not produce the same sound. In January we had a meeting with the Wolf Lake congregation. The meeting was cordial but it was clear that there were differences and concerns. Perhaps, for us, the most troubling and concerning issue has been the fact that we have different perceptions of the numerous meetings of the last five years. The Menahga representatives at those meetings have believed that the Holy Spirit has with love spoken, guided and taught at those meetings on the basis of and in accord with God's word, even though there are many human failings that are evident. We believe that we have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd in those meetings. It is our understanding that the Wolf Lake representatives that have been present at those meetings believe otherwise. They have not heard the same voice that we have. That and what it suggests have been deeply troubling and concerning to us. [1:13:35]

Mpls [Lee Mattila]: Hi God’s Peace, I’m Lee Mattila from Minneapolis.

We thank God that he has given us this opportunity to discuss the most important matter in our lives as members of His living congregation. May He give us humble hearts and love towards each other during the discussions here this weekend.

We don’t have answers, nor solutions for the situation. We pray that God will guide this meeting and continue to unite us through His Word and Spirit. We wish to endeavor together with God’s Zion towards our Heavenly home. Our desire is to take care of any offenses caused during these difficult times and may wrongs be corrected in truth, love, and forgiveness.

Our foundation of faith remains unchanged, founded on the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe that the Holy Bible is the highest authority in questions regarding faith and life and man is made righteous alone by faith, alone by grace and alone by the merits of Christ.

Our goal has been to continue as a congregation at our current location. It has been a challenge for our small congregation, and we ask for your understanding and forgiving mind. The immediate and urgent focus of the board has been to arrange services.

Some of the challenges have included:

-New and inexperienced board members and committee heads, basic church functionality, music, broadcasting, and finances

-No speakers of our own; we have relied on visiting speakers, both in-person and via Zoom, as well as archived sermons.

-The intention of the 3 letters were to ask for help, reassure our desire to remain in unity, ask for speakers to serve, clarify inaccuracies, and to express how we believe, which remains unchanged.

God has blessed our services and we are thankful for that.

Despite the troubling times God has blessed our congregation with new and willing workers, and hunger for the Word.

From Hebrews 10:25: “Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching”.

And from 1 Peter 2:2, “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.”

We have continued to have free and open discussions about the core matters of faith and recent Bible classes lessons have been based on the articles published in the Voice of Zion, which were translated from the recent SRK doctrinal book.

We’ve had discussion evenings on “How we believe; the foundation of our faith, based on our 3rd letter, which was sent out in March, and on “What is Faith”, Ari Pelkonen’s introduction from last January’s speakers meeting in Finland.

We have experienced God’s protection and provision, and most of all, we have been able to believe that we are saved alone by faith, alone by grace and alone by the merit work of Christ.

Our mutual goal is to one day make it to heaven along with all our brothers and sisters in God’s Kingdom. We want to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and to be obedient to his teachings. We desire to endeavor together with the believers, and to be cared for and nourished by God’s Word.

We wish to care for offenses in the blood of the lamb so that love could be restored. From Ephesians 4:32 “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.”

We would like to end with the familiar words from SHZ 218 which so preciously instructs and reminds us:...”the Shepherd will not scatter the flock He purchased here. On Zion’s mount He guides us with grace and loving care. Beloved, in affliction, let’s look to heaven’s home, and care for one another around the mercy throne.”

Monticello [Nate Jurmu]: I would like to welcome all of you here to our church. We are thankful for the blessings that God has given us during the eight years that we have been a congregation. We have received many spiritual blessings in this time of spiritual strife In America for the last several years. The unity that we have experienced has been a marvel both in temporal and spiritual decisions. Freedom to express individual thoughts has been evident in all of the discussions, including the spiritual matters. The congregation has made decisions regarding the spiritual concerns in these last years. It has been the experience that we have not had to make these decisions ourselves, rather we have been guided in these matters by the same spirit that has guided the believers throughout time. But there has been a different voice that has been heard that has caused concern In our congregation. Some have battled against the decisions, Including some who have been called to serve as ministers and board members. We have experienced how some who have been timid speak in the congregation discussions have spoken clearly and gently to those who are struggling. There has been love and care shown, but it has been received sometimes as an accusation and demanding instead of a loving call to repent. Some [people] have said that we need to “turn to the word” insinuating that we have turned away from God's word and have begun to understand these matters with our own mind. These differences have caused difficulty and sorrow. There are those who have not been free to attend [services] in Monticello and have moved to Minneapolis. In recent times, these discussions and decisions have been more difficult, as some are struggling and have not been able to hear the voice of the “congregation mother,” they have become more bold in opposition. We have been unified in the decision to pause in sending ministers to Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. We have also made the decision as a congregation not to send [speakers] there until the matters that divide us are resolved. It is a decision that was made with much prayer and lovinging concern for those who are struggling. To some [people] that decision has been viewed as sin. We have heard from some members who do not feel free to attend our services in person and no longer feel the love of the believers here – and includes their families – it is not a large number but these are our dear friends. It has caused sadness and worry. Throughout these times God has blessed us. Congregation is growing. The blessing of obedience is apparent. And work is great. Have been able to rejoice in spite of the troubles and difficulty. There is unity of spirit in understanding in Monticello. [1:21:24]

North Sound, Washington [near Seattle] [Paul Jacobson]: We don't have a formal report. I thought that I would relay greetings of love and God's peace from the believers in North Sound. Our hope and prayer is that this meeting would go as God wills, and that forgiveness and unity would prevail. [1:22:10]

Outlook, Saskatchewan, Canada [Arlen Simonson]: Good morning. I want to relay greetings of love and God's peace from those of us here [in Outlook]. It would be our desire to gather together with you, but as Eric [Jurmu] mentioned at the start that restrictions have prevented us. There are a number of people from Outlook and Dunblane who are gathered at the Outlook church. Like Dunblane mentioned, we have been largely unaffected by conflict. We feel the blessing of the unity of spirit in our congregation. Given the covid restrictions, we have not been able to gather to discuss these matters with the congregation over the last 14 months. But it is the prayer of all of us here that the meeting would go according to God's will and that His will would be done. [1:23:27]

Pelkie, Michigan [Albert Hongisto]: There is no report from Pelkie. The wishes from many are that things would go well at this meeting. The board is of one mind in Pelkie. Everything is well in Pelkie. [1:24:06]

Prescott Valley, Arizona [Dave Wittenberg]: We do not have a report to bring. Many people wanted their greetings of love and God's peace sent here [to the meeting] along with their prayers. We are blessed to have unity of spirit on our board and in the congregation. [1:24:45]

Did you forget Phoenix? Eric: It is on the list.

Roaring Fork Valley, Colorado [Pete Waaraniemi]: I would like to relay the greetings of love and God's peace and the prayers of many that were sent from there to the meeting this weekend. Overall, we have been blessed with unity among our congregation. Yet there is worry and concern over the loved ones who are battling God’s kingdom. It remains close to us. [1:26:06]

Phoenix [Keith Hillukka]: 1:26:25] “Greetings of love and God's peace from the Phoenix congregation. Many prayers have been sent to the heavenly Father for this meeting. Over the past few years, the enemy has been working to sow seeds of confusion, doubts and division in our congregation. We have had many congregation [meetings] and private discussions, where it has felt like a new and different message is spoken. The topics have been many. There seems to be an emphasis on knowledge and individual interpretation of the Bible. It has been said: “prove to me that I am wrong.” There also seems to be an emphasis on the Church Law of Christ, and caring for public matters and following the Church Law of Christ perfectly, rather than caring for matters that would be the most important. It has even been stated that God's Kingdom has been teaching incorrectly for many years. We have also noticed more separation. There are people congregating in separate groups after services. So far, there has been free and open discussion in our congregation discussions. We have also felt the blessings of this time. We have gathered around God's word, read the Bible and Christian Publications and discussed faith with friends, family and other believers more than in the past. We have been blessed with spiritual unity on the board in Phoenix and have felt the same unity with the Glendale board. God has also blessed us with being able to have the Glendale congregation join us for the past year.” [1:28:12]

Rockford, Minnesota [Jeremy Glynn]: Greetings of love and God's peace from the Rockford board and congregation. The specific time when the spiritual differences started to become more public was when there was a meeting in Minneapolis Church in April [8] 2016. We were invited to join that meeting with the Minneapolis and Wolf Lake board, along with the LLC board. At that meeting there was much discussion around the topic: “would there ever be a time when we would not forgive?” Through the course of that discussion, it was evident that there were different views on that matter. Even more concerning than that, it seemed to me for the first time we were in a spiritual discussion where it was combative. It was not combative to a large degree but it was in a very subtle way at that time. It was almost like in the Garden of Eden when the devil tempted Eve by asking, “did God ever say so?” Two years later in June [April] of 2018 there was a meeting with the Minneapolis board, Rockford board and the LLC board. It took place at the LLC office. This meeting was set at the request of the Minneapolis baard, which was divided, [because of] how they understood these matters of faith. They requested help from sister congregation boards about this [problem].. As the meeting approached and we were gathering at the LLC office, other people – non board members and non ministers – started to show up. The meeting chairman [Mike Forstie from Cokato] opted to ask those who were attending as uninvited guests what their purpose was for attending. This was not a small number of people that showed up. There are more than 20 of them. As these people spoke, the combative spirit that was so subtle at the meeting two years prior, came out clear. It was not subtle in the least. The speeches were strong and bold, accusing some dear ministers in Minneapolis and Rockford of grievous sins, even lying to the Congregation. They demanded to know if these matters had been cared for? I know that I speak for the Rockford Board. [The other meeting attendees] were appalled and deeply saddened by that behavior. More specifically to our congregation, the spiritual battles have left scars during these past years. In Rockford we have seen three ministers that were once dwelling In the warmth and splendor of our congregation who are no longer serving. The congregation has asked them to rest. We have also experienced congregation discussions where the same combative voice has been present – sometimes subtly and sometimes boldly. Some of these voices have left and they are now dwelling in Minneapolis or Wolf Lake. In other cases, families have divided. One spouse attends [services] in Rockford while the other attends [services] in Minneapolis. Brothers and sisters, this is no small matter when this is the situation. How can a married couple that once dwelled in unity of spirit in their home congregation now attend services in different churches? I do not believe that this is possible if the spirit is the same. So, in closing I would say, our hope – I know that it is the hope of our congregation, board, ministers and delegates that are here – is that love would be restored and that none would be lost. May God give each of us hearing ears, humble minds and hearts that long to be cleansed with the blood of Christ. [1:32:47]

Rolla: No report

Saskatoon, Canada [Trent Simonson]: We are gathered together here in Saskatoon. We send greetings of God's peace. We surely would have sent members there if it would have been possible. We pray that God would open up matters and that people would understand and put away sin and continue on the pathway to heaven. We feel that there have been two Spirits present in the last several years. We also feel that in God's Kingdom that there can only be one correct spirit.” [1:33:40]

Seattle [Evan Niemela]:

May 5, 2021

God’s Peace!

As we open this meeting, we pray and ask for God’s guidance and help as we meet to discuss the matters affecting God’s Kingdom. We pray that God would allow all members to come with an open heart and have the prayer in their heart that God would guide their speech for the benefit and healing of God’s Kingdom. The Seattle congregation has sent delegates, ministers, and board members with greetings of God’s Peace and many prayers to all you here.

The LLC letter to the congregations announcing this meeting, invited a short report on ‘how the issues and divisions in North American Zion have affected your congregation.’

The local decisions made by other congregations to not send speakers to Minneapolis has caused unrest within our congregation and speakers. Our congregation decided to be patient and not make any decisions about formally sending speakers or not, considering there were no speakers immediately called. As time went on, some of our speakers have said they do not feel they can serve, until the continent-wide meeting brings clarity. Uncertainty remains in many regarding the decisions to not serve Minneapolis at this time. And others feel obligated to serve, if asked, as long as they are speakers in the love of their home congregation. Many have also felt the continual calling and not sending of speakers to Minneapolis when sober and serious underlying matters are not being directly addressed by all involved, has resulted in the enemy of souls causing further unrest and divisions.

Last fall, the Seattle congregation expressed the desire to help the Minneapolis situation from a place of timidness, not with answers, but with sincere desire and love – how can we help? The congregation asked the Seattle board to reach out informally to both the LLC Board and Minneapolis in the fall with this question- as to how we could help. The idea of a smallish informal meeting was requested by Minneapolis around the beginning of the year. There was much consideration of this, and the Seattle area suggested a slightly larger meeting to have more gifts present.

Then, some members of the Seattle congregation and some members of the LLC board expressed hope that Seattle would be patient and would trust that Minnesota congregations and boards have made sincere attempts to help with the Minneapolis situation already. It was expressed that the LLC board did not encourage a small meeting, but would, of course, participate if asked. Issues of trust between the LLC board and Minneapolis also became evident. It was expressed that the LLC board was not directing Seattle what to do or not do with respect to a smallish meeting. Many congregation members felt we should proceed with a small informal meeting, as our offer of help from the fall time was accepted, and we offered. Some in our congregation also felt that there could be a negative perception if we proceeded with facilitating a small informal meeting without the encouragement of the LLC board. Many felt matters were no longer local, and were much wider. Some felt issues were manifesting. There was good and open discussion in the Seattle congregation on this. We certainly felt the freedom to proceed with smaller meetings but ultimately chose not to do so in light of the developing plan to set up a continent-wide meeting in the near future. We also discussed our love toward the Wolf Lake brothers and sisters. In turn, the importance of each congregation being involved in the continent-wide meeting to discuss the matters in light of God’s Word became evident, and many of the matters were continent-wide. Many congregations had written letters to Minneapolis. We decided to be patient.

Now this meeting has gathered. It is of course all of our prayers that God guides our meeting.

Proverbs 21:2 reminds us: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.”

So may it all be our prayer, like the psalmist: “Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.” [Psalm 139].

Likewise, the writer to Hebrews lovingly reminded his own battling congregation:

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works; Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”

(Hebrews 10: 22-25).

We pray that those that have been sent from all over North American Zion can hear, speak and share freely with you dear brothers and sisters gathered - to mutually strengthen, to exhort, to speak in love, in grace and truth, and in light of God’s Word. The Good Shepherd will care for his own, so we pray all would hear the voice of the Holy Spirit at this meeting.

We pray that underlying matters and issues can be addressed directly, lovingly, and comprehended and cared for through the power of the Holy Spirit. Fellow travelers, do not forsake the Gospel. Let us recall the loving encouragement of Apostle Paul in his letter to the believers at Rome: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Rom. 1:16).

As we say in part in our Sunday School prayer – may God grant that “His precious word by be so grafted into our hearts as to bring forth the fruits of righteousness to the honor and glory of His name,” and that He would “unite us in the bonds of Christian love, and receive us at last to thyself in thy heavenly Kingdom.”

With Love and God’s Peace, the Seattle Laestadian Lutheran Church.

Spokane, Washington [Todd Ericson]: I bring greetings of love and God's peace from the Spokane congregation. The Spokane board over the past couple of years thought it's best not to have a congregational discussion to review [go over] any of these details of the spiritual challenges in the Midwest. We had heard many rumors and second and third-hand information. We were worried about causing more confusion in our congregation. But in the recent past when some of our ministers were requested to serve in Minneapolis, we realized that we needed to have a congregational discussion. How do we approach this matter? During the meeting this past March, It became clear that there were some members who were quite supportive in sending ministers to serve in Minneapolis. Many members also felt that the Holy Spirit has already provided guidance in the Midwest. We wanted to follow the same guidance. In the general sense, our congregation has little understanding about all of the issues. But we also have a feeling of trust that God will provide clarity. [1:41:53]

Toronto, Canada [email]: “God's peace to all. Greetings of love and peace from Toronto. We have been sheltered from these issues which have been battling in Zion. We feel the love and unity of the spirit in our precious home congregation. Our dear brother Petri [Hotari] is on the LLC board. We have had the same understanding on issues that he has brought to our board. We are sinful, faulty and weak. We need to live by the gospel. We encourage everyone to put all they have on the exchange table. Take away your own. Speak Lord, and we will listen. Thank you. Toronto.” [1:45:13]

Ulster Park and West Barnstable: no reports

Williston, North Dakota [John Lahti]: Greetings of love and God's peace. The Williston congregation and board has openly discussed the current spiritual battles that are going on in God's Kingdom. With a few exceptions, the congregation is in unity with the LLC, SRK and SFC and their work in God's Kingdom. As was previously written in a letter to the Minneapolis board, we feel that our spirit is not in agreement with them. We understand that the spiritual battle is God's battle. We pray that each one of us would be given humble hearts to listen and receive the instructions when they are given. [1:43:50]

Wolf Lake, Minnesota [Bruce Johnson]: Greetings of love and God’s peace from Wolf Lake. The current situation in North American Zion has certainly been a time of much discussion and contemplation. We in Wolf Lake have been blessed with many opportunities to discuss a multitude of topics, both within our congregation and with entities from the LLC and other congregations. God has thus blessed us with the opportunity to “dust off the Bible '' and turn to study and learn of His Word and the manifold blessings we experience from Him, joyfully believing in Christ Jesus as our Lord, our Savior, and our King. “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience experience; and experience, hope: and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.” [Romans 5:1-5] We have experienced the comfort and unity of the Holy Spirit which has brought peace, joy, longsuffering, gentleness, meekness and temperance to our home congregation, for which we thank God and praise Him for His great love for us. “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.” [2 Peter 3:15-18] Yet today resounds forth from God’s Kingdom the message that you have the permission to believe on the merit work of Christ Jesus and know that your sins are forgiven through his sacrifice on Golgotha and resurrection over death. Your sins are forgiven in Jesus’ name and precious blood. I am the last one [to speak]. If there are any offenses that I have caused in the last few years, I would like to hear that gospel. [1:48:44]

Eric Jurmu: Thank you all. I am going to turn the meeting over to Jim [Jurmu]. He will give the presentation on the timeline. [1:49:00]

Jim Jurmu [timeline]:

Jim Frantti’s presentation at the meeting in Monticello on 7 May 2021: [31:00] It is good to see so many of you dear brothers and sisters in faith here at this meeting. I mentioned it to one brother earlier. It feels secure to be in the midst of fellow travelers, because we know how God's spirit works. It does not give all of the gifts to one person or to any small group. God's gifts are distributed among his own. The spirit guides. I apologize for the technical delays. Because of them, we are going to try and move kind of quickly. Jim [Jurmu] moved kind of quickly through his [presentation]. I am going to try and do that through [my presentation], as well. If it seems too fast, [just] fasten your seatbelts. If you want me to elaborate on anything, you can make me pause. We will also have time after lunch to discuss [further]. In thinking about the plans for this meeting, The LLC board discussed this and thought that it would be good at the beginning of our meeting to touch on a few spiritual topics. These are not meant to be a list of spiritual topics necessarily that have been questioned or causing division. Mainly, it is to touch on some very basic matters of how we believe. It seems like there are some different understandings on [some of these]. I want to share [some thoughts] on some few basic topics of faith – matters of how we believe. And [also I will give] some thoughts about them. I will freely invite discussion, as we go on. I can skip over my first slide because Eric [Jurmu] covered all of those details when he did his Introduction.

First of all, about justification. The question of how a person is found acceptable before God is the most fundamental question that we could ask. How is it that we can be acceptable before God? How is it that we can have the hope of one day reaching our eternal goal in heaven? In some ways, I suppose, this topic being such a foundational topic could deserve a lot of research and study of Scripture and discussion. But I have to say, dear brothers and sisters, in my mind it becomes very simple – this question of justification. It is what we have already heard today and what was discussed at the time of the Reformation. It is still how we believe. We are only justified by faith. The writer of the letter to the Hebrews says that without faith it is impossible to please God [Heb. 11:6] So, it is only by faith, which is a grace gift. It is only by God's grace. It is only by faith that God sees in us the merits of his Son. We cannot add anything to this. So, justification to me, in the end, is really very simple. Even though I know it could be a deep theological discussion that would be very interesting. We know that a person's own righteousness through knowledge or our good works cannot make a person acceptable before God. So, we are saved only in that way. We are righteous only in that way. So, we often speak about the righteousness of faith. The only righteousness that is acceptable to God is Christ’s [righteousness], and we own it only by faith. We do know, and the Bible clearly teaches, that living faith is also accompanied by its fruits. Living faith is an endeavor. It is accompanied by what we sometimes call the endeavor of faith. Sometimes we use the phrase ‘righteousness of life’. We are not speaking about Good Works …

(The typed transcript has a gap here, from 36:00 to 36:52.) … When we speak about the Holy Spirit, for example, we are speaking about God. We are not speaking about some different phenomena or concepts. It is the form in which God is present in His kingdom and his children. Jesus made this promise before he left from this earth. He promised the sending of the Holy Spirit, what he called a teacher, a comforter, and he called it a spirit of truth. We want to hold that understanding in our hearts. God's Spirit is in his congregation. It is a teacher and it is a comforter and it is the spirit of truth. God’s Spirit does not teach us our own way to believe, because it is the spirit of truth. It dwells in each child of God. Jesus said of those who believe in him. I, the father, will come and make an abode in you. [John 14:23] God's spirit dwells in each believer. Therefore, it speaks through the believers. It uses our mouths to speak. But it gives a message that is from God. That is why Jesus said more than once: “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” I know that many of us have come today with that prayer that God's spirit would speak here. And that God would give to everyone of us listening ears and hearts to receive what the spirit says.

Then there is a question connected with the office of the Holy Spirit. How is a person sanctified or made holy? There has been historically and quite broadly even when we look at teachings of Christianity throughout the world a difference of understanding in this – sanctification of the word versus sanctification of the spirit. We esteem God’s Word as the highest authority. We examine all of our teachings according to God's holy Word. But Jesus said in this way. It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and life. [John 6:63] What is in question when we talk about sanctification? What is able to give life? Luther, as most of you well know, described the work of the Holy Spirit In this way. It calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies. It is clear how he believed that the work of sanctification takes place.

Paul writes in this way in his second letter to the Corinthians. “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” [2 Cor. 3:5, 6] I would just say that it does not mean that we somehow diminish the treasure of God’s printed word that we have in our midst. It is a treasure. We have always been encouraged in God's Kingdom to read the Scriptures. When we hold services, we gather around the word of God, the Bible. In Sunday School and Bible class we teach about what the Bible says. In our homes we read the Bible. We hold Bible camps to study it. It is the foundation of all of our camp work and all of the work that we do in God's Kingdom. It is good to read the Bible, dear brothers and sisters, and to be familiar with it. But reading and studying the printed word cannot give life. The spirit gives life. That is why it is said that faith comes by hearing, [Rom. 10:17] because we need the Living Word to give faith. We need the Living Word to give power to believe. It doesn't in any way diminish the value of the printed word. It teaches us that what gives life is the spirit. How often do we pray when we come to services that God’s Spirit would open the word and give life. Luther said it more bluntly. “No man perceives one iota of what is in the Scriptures unless he has the Spirit of God. All men have a darkened heart, so that even if they can recite everything in Scripture, and know how to quote it, yet they apprehend and truly understand nothing of it.” That is how bluntly he put it. The spirit has to give life to the word.

As I already said, God gives the gift of faith – not through reading, not through prayer, not through doing good deeds – but it is a great gift that comes through the hearing of his word. You know these words from Paul's letter to the Romans, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” [Rom. 10:17] Paul preceded those words by writing, “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!” [Rom. 10: 14, 15] So, the office of the Holy Spirit is that it calls, gathers, enlightens and sanctifies. It can give life through the Living Word. It is our teacher. It is our comforter. It is our sanctifier. Is a spirit of truth.

Then on to the congregation of God. We have sometimes heard discussions or questions about this recently. I would first say again – I want to reiterate – God's word is our highest authority. It is given different pictures in the Scriptures. It is also pictured as our foundation. We are built upon the prophets and the apostles, with Jesus Christ as the Chief Cornerstone [Eph. 2:20] It is the authority according to which we examine the teachings of our kingdom. The word is in the congregation. That is where the Living Word is found. The printed Bible – or some translation of it – is used by every Christian Church in the world, I suppose. But where is the Living Word found? God's congregation and the Word of God are inseparable. They are not separate entities. We don't say that over here is the congregation and over there is the word. It is our highest authority, but it is found in the congregation. They are inseparable. Juhani Raattamaa said in this way: “... if you correctly understand God’s Word, then the Word binds you to the congregation.” Among many things, it is one of the things that makes God's congregation so dear to us, because that is where the Living Word is. If we want to find encouragement, a place of comfort, forgiveness, we turn to fellow believers, because the Living Word is found in the fellowship of believers.

Luther said in this way: “Where the Word is (which is the most important thing). There is the kingdom of God. Consequently, all things are there: church, Christ, sacraments, ordination.” Luther went on to say: “Neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe in him, and obtain him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel.”

The Congregation of God, we could say, is at the same time both visible and invisible. It is visible because it consists of people. And it is invisible because it is a spiritual fellowship. I found this quote of Luther to be very interesting. “A child seven years old knows what the church is, namely, the holy believers and lambs who hear the voice of their Shepherd.” So, the congregation of God has that visible aspect to it. It is present in our brothers and sisters. Of course, it is hidden by our sinfulness and our flaws. It is hidden from the world. So, at the same time it is an invisible congregation.

The prophet wrote in the Old Testament. You are a God who hides yourself. [Isa. 45:15] When we realize that God’s congregation is a spiritual fellowship and not a human or fleshly fellowship, that is what allows us to understand and believe that the congregation of God is unerring. It is the pillar and ground of truth. [1 Tim. 3:15] It is unerring. Does it mean that we don’t err? You know that answer, right? We err all of the time. Does it mean that a group of believers don’t err? No. Does it mean that a board or a whole congregation can’t err? No. But it means that God’s congregation on earth does not err. The truth is always found there. It is being led by the spirit on the path to heaven. That is why it is always our prayer that we can remain in the fellowship of God’s congregation and in its unity. Collectively, the congregation does not err, even though individually and in small numbers we can err very well.

The congregation of God is our spiritual mother. There has been a question asked. Is that really a true statement? If we turn to the life of Jesus in Scripture. You are familiar with the time when he was speaking. Someone approached him, when the crowd gathered. It was so large that there were those outside. Someone came to Jesus and said, “Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.” His earthly mother and brothers were outside. I have thought about the messenger how shocked he must have been, when Jesus answered: “But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?” We know how often Jesus took questions of one intent and used it to teach about matters of faith. Jesus said: “Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!” [Matt. 12:47-49] God’s kingdom is our mother. Paul repeats that teaching in the letter to the Galatians. “But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” [Gal. 4:26] Incidentally, I have heard questions about that translation. Jerusalem is above. When Luther talks about it, he says that God's kingdom is above. It is a Heavenly Kingdom. It is a city that is set on a hill. It is above. We see its beauty and its preciousness. Paul in writing that way to the Galatians is extolling and placing the kingdom above all other things on this earth. It is our mother.

I wanted to quote this familiar portion. Luther in the Large Catechism. Luther describes the congregation and the unity of spirit that rules there in this manner. “I believe that there is on earth a little flock or community of pure saints under one head, Christ. It is called together by the Holy Spirit in one faith, mind, and understanding. It possesses a variety of gifts, yet it is united in love without sect or schism. Of this community I also am a part and member, a participant and co-partner in all the blessings it possesses. I was brought to it by the Holy Spirit and incorporated into it through the fact that I have heard and still hear God's Word.” It is a very familiar but also a very precious description of the Congregation of God.

Then on the topic of forgiveness. [53:00] It is also a fundamental topic in our Living Faith. Jesus gave the keys into his kingdom. We speak of the Keys of the Kingdom. It is one of our basic teachings. Jesus gave two keys, as we know. When he gave the keys to his disciples, He told them: “whatever you loose on Earth is loosed in heaven; Whatever you bind on Earth is bound in heaven.” [Matt. 16:19] Jesus gave two keys. We know very well, and we have experienced it personally ourselves, God's congregation is quick to lose and slow to bind. We know the key of loosening so well. It happens when the gospel is preached to us and we are able to be freed from sin. We are able to believe our sins forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. The key of binding – it happens in one sense in this way when we cannot accept those who are not believing as fellow Christians. When we cannot greet those who are on the outside of God's Kingdom. When we confess that they are not on the way to heaven. It is one form of binding. They are bound in their own condition. We do not want to give them false hope or understanding that we would accept them. In that way, we want to lovingly remind them that they are not traveling on the same road or path as we are. Binding can also happen in this way as Jesus described in the Church Law of Christ. It is the final and ultimate step if matters cannot be cared for. I will return to that [matter] later. I would say that both of the keys are used in love. Both of the keys are part of the Gospel. If somebody is not in God's Kingdom, they are not believing. It is not love if we go and greet them and give them false security. It is love when we are trembling and fearful, and that we would want them to know where they are.

So, how does a person receive forgiveness? It seems like the Bible is so clear on this [matter]. Forgiveness happens through the preaching of the Gospel. God's Living Word, the living gospel, is the power of God unto salvation. It has the power to cleanse sin. I remember one elderly brother from Finland when he was once speaking about this. He was visiting another brother in his home. The brother had just done some concrete work. He had mixed it up in a wheelbarrow. Now he was trying to clean up the mess. In order to get the wheelbarrow completely clean, he had to use some special solvent. While he was watching the other person, he said: “This is just like living faith. There is only one solvent that can clean the stains of sin on the conscience. It is the gospel.” It has that kind of power – the living gospel – it can cleanse the stain of sin. In God's Kingdom we are so fortunate that it is so freely preached. It is preached, for example, in the way that I was thinking about when apostle Paul was speaking in the synagogue in Antioch. He said it in this way. “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man [Jesus] is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” [Acts 13:38, 39] It encapsulates justification and forgiveness all in one statement, it seems. Luke in the chapter of Acts goes on to say. The Jews had left, but there were some Gentiles who had heard this. They approached Paul and begged him. They wanted the same words to be preached to him the next Sunday. It was a precious message to them that they could receive the forgiveness of their sins through such a simple manner of preaching of the Gospel.

We have heard many questions and we have had many discussions in recent times about forgiveness. I don't have time to go into a lot of detail on this. I would like to especially comment on how God's children live under the “continual protection of God's grace”. God's grace is like – I think of if in this way – a protective umbrella over God's children. We live in that protection. In fact, as Paul writes to the Romans. We stand in this grace. “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand ...” [Rom. 5:2] What does it mean to us? First of all, it has to be so, because we carry inherited sin. It never leaves us. We can hear the gospel and believe it that our sins are forgiven. We do not become holy beings, do we? We still carry this old portion. We will [carry it] until they lay us into the grave. This portion returns to dust from which it was made. So, if we did not have the “continual protection of God's grace,” we would have no hope, because we carry sin corruption always. God's grace also does this for us as God's children. When we fall into committed sin, whether by thought, word or deed, God does not cast us off. We do not lose faith every time we fall into sin. If that were the case, we also would have no hope. We could never leave the place of repentance if that were the case. But God's grace carries us and protects us. But it does not mean that we do not put away sin. It's like the Apostle Paul wrote to the Romans: do we sin that grace would abound [Rom 6:1]. God forbid. We want to care for our sins. But grace gives us the space to do that. Have you, brothers and sisters, sometimes felt sin on your conscience, and had a hard time speaking about it and caring for it? Sometimes, we are slow to take those steps. Have you sometimes caused offense at home to your spouse or a family member? And it was hard to take those steps to take care of it. We are not always so quick to put away sin like we wish we could be. We carry the old portion that hinders it. But God's grace protects us. It does not take away, dear brothers and sisters, the need to care for the matters of conscience. It does not take away the need to put away sin. In fact, if anything, it encourages us to put away sin. It gives us grace to approach the Mercy Seat in the time of need and care for our sins. We can continue on taking the footsteps of faith, even though we are faulty and sinful and we carry this [old] portion. Where would we be without God's grace? Peter also writes, “... testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.” [1 Pet. 5:12] The encouragement or the instruction to put away sin is found in many places in God's Word. I just listed four references here. There are many other references. For the sake of time, I won't detail these. In John 13, Jesus gave the teaching to his disciples to wash one another's feet. In the letter to Timothy, there is the encouragement to hold faith and a good conscience. In Hebrews 12, we are told that we are encompassed by a great cloud of witnesses. Let us lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets [us]. In Revelation 7, it tells about that throng that came out of great tribulations. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. There are many other places, too, that give us the encouragement to put away sin. [1:03:42]

Then on the matter of confession. You already heard from our brother Jim’s [Jurmu] presentation that there has been discussion about [confession]. There have been statements that there is a wrong confession doctrine. By the way, there is a right confession doctrine and there is a wrong confession doctrine. It is not wrong to believe in confession. It is wrong to have a wrong understanding of it. Confession is founded on Scripture. I only listed three portions. In Psalms 32, it tells when David had fallen into sin. David acknowledged: “I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. ” [Ps. 32:5] James writes: “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.” [James 5:16] In 1st John there is a familiar portion that we use in our communion rites. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.” [1 John 1:9] We speak of confession that it is a grace privilege. It means that it is not forced and it is not demanded. It is a privilege. It is for us when we feel the need, it is not because someone is telling us that we must [confess]. We confess of our own will. We do it because it is a gift given by God. It helps us to travel free from the burden of sin.

In the Smalcald Articles it is written in this way. “Since Absolution or the Power of the Keys, which was instituted by Christ in the Gospel, is a consolation and help against sin and a bad conscience, confession and absolution should by no means be allowed to fall into disuse in the church ...” They valued the grace privilege then, as we do now.

The Augsburg Confession reads in this way. “About Confession, our congregations teach that Private Absolution is to be preserved in the congregations, although an enumeration of all sins is not essential in confession. It is even impossible according to the Psalmist: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.” You can see that they valued this privilege. We also want to keep it as a treasure. God gives us that way as weak believers that we can be freed from anything that troubles us.

In the Small Catechism: “Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.” Luther teaches that forgiveness or absolution is the sweet part of confession. That is the part that we long to hear. That is why we speak about our matters. It is not that we are freed by somehow speaking about it. But we want to hear the message of forgiveness. Let us not make confession into some kind of work or demand. Let us not lose it as a grace privilege.

Then a couple of other thoughts about confession. The gospel of forgiveness is just as effective in private confession as it is in public confession. We are not made better because we confess something publicly. If we put the wrong emphasis on confession, there is a danger that we make it a merit of our own by which we earn forgiveness. So, we never want to put that kind of emphasis – or a demanding emphasis – on confession. But always keep it as a privilege for us as believers to use if we feel the need. We also teach in God's Kingdom – we have always been taught – that matters are corrected to the extent that the offense has been caused. Oftentimes, private confession gives strength for this. I know it is past your lunch time. I don't have too much more. If you will bear with me, I would like to share one simple story. I was talking with a brother in Finland. He told me about his two kids. They were younger kids, maybe 9 or 10 years old. The brother and sister got into a spat at home. The sister was very hurt by what her brother said or did. She ran upstairs to her bedroom crying. The Finland brother said that I talked to my boy. You really hurt your sister. You need to go and ask her forgiveness. The boy said, nope. He was not going. He said, dad, I want you to forgive me. I told my boy that it is not me that you hurt or offended, it is your sister. You need to go and take care of matters with her. He said, no. Dad, I want you to forgive me. Luckily I remembered what the Bible said, the father said. The gospel is power. I preached the gospel to my boy. Do you know what happened then? He ran upstairs to take care of matters with his sister. The gospel gave him the power to do that. That is what happens often even in confession. It gives us power to care for our matters wherever they should be cared for, not because it is demanded of us but because we want to be free with each other.

Then the Church Law of Christ. It begins with these words. “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee …” [Matt. 18:15] The instructions are clear. The instructions of Jesus are to care for offenses between brothers and sisters. We are taught that we care for matters in the smallest circle in which offenses have occurred. If the offense is between two believers, we try to take care of it between the two of us. But if that cannot happen, Jesus says not to give up, because the goal is forgiveness. If it can't be cared for in that way, then seek help because the goal is that offenses can be forgiven. There are matters that are not personal offenses – they are public matters in the congregation. When the matters are such and they are discussed in the congregation, it is not wrong. For example, I will say for myself. If I am serving, as I am serving you here today, and I am doing it with my own weak understanding. If my words offend you brothers and sisters, I don't expect that each one of you would come personally to me. I want you to take care of me here in the midst of the congregation. That is where I want my care to be. If, on the other hand, I said something insulting to my brother Eric [Jurmu]. I often do say weak words, and I don't think of how they affect others. Then I hope that Eric would come and talk to me and not preach it in his sermon next Sunday about what I said. We care for matters in the smallest circle where the offenses have taken place with the goal of forgiveness.

Finally, I have a couple of quick comments about the servants in the congregation. God's word says through the prophet [Isaiah]. “I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night.” [Isa. 62:6] We understand that in faith we are all in a place of watching. Jesus instructed all to watch. Our first place of watching is in our own faith. But we are also each other's helpers. And we watch over each other. But it is also true that God has given some a special duty to be watchmen on the walls – to help to sound the trumpet if the enemy is approaching. Isaiah mentions that. Jeremiah mentions it. He says, “Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet.” [Jer. 6:17] So, God calls to serve through his congregation for these special duties. By the way, he can also free us from serving. If he decides that our time of serving is over for any reason he can through the congregation ask us to sit. I have often said – God does not owe me any explanation of why he calls and why he asks to sit. It is God's decision to do that.

Paul writes to the Corinthians about his, too. God has set some ... [1 Cor. 12] He speaks about the diversity of gifts and the diversity of duties. I don't think it is wrong to say that the servants of the word and the elders [board members] have been given a special duty in the Kingdom. It is not because they are somehow wise or skilled, gifted necessarily. I have often thought of the apostle Paul's words. He said in his letter to the Corinthians. I think that God has set the apostles last. Paul wrote that he felt to be the least of all of the Saints. When Paul met with the board members or the elders in Ephesus, he thought that he would not see the brothers again. His instruction or advice to them: “Take heed unto yourselves and unto all the flock over which God hath made you overseers.” [Acts 20:28] The duties that Paul was speaking of were not just temporal duties – to collect the monies or to find a place to gather. But Paul was saying to take heed over the spiritual needs of the flock. There are those responsibilities that have been given to those who serve. It does not elevate those who serve. Jesus asked, who is greater – He that sits at meat or he that serves? [Luke 22:27; 1 Cor. 4:9] It is a foolish question because it had an obvious answer. But Jesus had a reason for asking. It is to remind us of this.

My last slide, dear brothers and sisters, which I want to end with is to ask this question. I asked it of my own heart. I hope that you would ask it also in your heart. How do we see God's Kingdom? How does it look to you today? Do you see the pillar and ground of truth? [1 Tim. 3:15] Do you see a candlestick all of gold without blemishes? [Zech. 4:2] Do you see your spiritual mother? [Gal. 4:26] Do you experience it as righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit? [Rom. 14:17] “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.” [Heb. 12:22] Is that how God's Kingdom looks to us? I can tell you very openly – I have said it before, and I will say it again. My prayer especially in these recent times has constantly been – dear heavenly Father, don't let me lose sight of the beauty of this Kingdom. Let me remain in its unity and fellowship and care, because it is the only way that I will get to heaven.

I ask, may I yet believe my sins forgiven? [1:18:10]. Dear brothers and sisters, That is what I had to share. I know that we have run over time a little bit. I thank you for your patience in listening. We will have time for a discussion, as we continued after lunch.

Eric, do you have any announcements to make before we break?

Keith [Waaraniemi] has an announcement. I will turn it over to him. Keith says that there are free books for the taking in the back foyer.

How is a person found acceptable before God?

Only by faith, only by grace, only by the merits of Christ

A person’s own righteousness through knowledge or good works does not make one acceptable.

Righteousness of faith is accompanied by righteousness of life (the endeavor of faith)

The Triune God

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit – a teacher, a comforter, the spirit of truth

The Holy Spirit dwells in each believer and speaks through the believers

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Sanctification of the Word versus Sanctification of the Spirit

Jesus: “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” [John 6:63]

Luther: The Holy Spirit calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies

“Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” [2 Cor. 3:5, 6]

Luther: “No man perceives one iota of what is in the Scriptures unless he has the Spirit of God. All men have a darkened heart, so that even if they can recite everything in Scriptures, and know how to quote it, yet they apprehend and truly understand nothing of it.”

God gives His gift of faith through the hearing of His word.

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” [Rom. 10:17]

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!” [Rom. 10: 14, 15]

The Word of God is our highest authority

The Word of God is in the congregation of God

God’s congregation and the Word of God are inseparable

Raattamaa: “... if you correctly understand God’s Word, then the Word binds you to the congregation.”

Luther: “Where the Word is (which is the most important thing). There is the kingdom of God. Consequently, all things are there: church Christ, sacraments, ordination.”

Luther: “Neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on him, and obtain him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the gospel.”

The congregation of God is both visible and invisible.

Luther: “A child seven years old knows what the church is, namely, the holy believers and lambs who hear the voice of their Shepherd.”

The congregation of God is unerring

The congregation of God is our spiritual mother.

“Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!” [Matt. 12:47-49]

“But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” Gal. 4:26

Luther in the Large Catechism. Luther describes the congregation and the unity of spirit that rules there in this manner. “I believe that there is on earth a little flock or community of pure saints under one head, Christ. It is called together by the Holy Spirit in one faith, mind, and understanding. It possesses a variety of gifts, yet it is united in love without sect or schism. Of this community I also am a part and member, a participant and co-partner in all the blessings it possesses. I was brought to it by the Holy Spirit and incorporated into it through the fact that I have heard and still hear God's Word.”

Keys of the kingdom

Jesus gave two keys to his own

God’s congregation is quick to loose and slow to bind.

Both are used in love and are a part of the complete gospel

How can a person receive forgiveness?

Forgiveness happens through the preaching of the gospel

“Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” [Acts 13:38, 39]

Living under the continual protection of God’s grace

“By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand ...” [Rom. 5:2]

“... testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.” [1 Pet. 5:12]

Encouragement, or instruction, to put away sin is found in many places in the Word of God (e.g. John 13, 1 Tim. 1:19, Heb. 12, Rev. 7, etc.)

Confession is founded on scripture: Psalms 32, James 5:16, 1 John 1:8, 9

Confession is not forced or demanded

We confess of our own will, because it is a gift given to us by God

Smalcald Articles: “Since Absolution or the Power of the Keys, which was instituted by Christ in the Gospel, is a consolation and help against sin and a bad conscience, confession and absolution should by no means be allowed to fall into disuse in the church ...”

About Confession, our congregations teach that Private Absolution is to be preserved in the congregations, although an enumeration of all sins is not essential in confession. It is even impossible according to the Psalmist: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12. You can see that they value this privilege. We also want to keep it as a treasure. God gives us that way as weak believers that we can be freed from anything that troubles us.

Small Catechism: Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

The gospel of the forgiveness of sins is just as effective in private confession as in public confession.

With the wrong emphasis, there is a danger of making confession a merit of our own by which we earn forgiveness.

Matters are corrected to the extent that offense has been caused. Often private confession gives strength for this.

“Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee …” [Matt. 18:15]

Jesus gives clear instruction on caring for offenses between brothers and sisters

Matters are cared for in the smallest circle in which offenses have occurred

The goal is that offenses can be forgiven

“I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night.” [Isa. 62:6]

“Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet.” [Jer. 6:17]

God calls to serve through His congregation, and He can also free us from serving.

God has set some into special duties at serving [1 Cor. 12]

Servants of the word and elders have a duty to watch.

Take heed unto yourselves and unto all the flock over which God hath made you overseers. [Acts 20:28]

This does not elevate those who serve [Luke 22L27; 1 Cor. 4:9]

Pillar and ground of truth [1 Tim. 3:15]

A candlestick all of gold [Zech. 4:2]

Our spiritual mother [Gal. 4:26]

Righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit [Rom. 14:17]

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.” [Heb. 12:22]

Keith Hillukka [moderator] Saturday afternoon on May 7, 2021: We will open up our discussion. There are a couple of housekeeping items. For those who are listening by Zoom, if you want to make a comment, please raise your hand on Zoom. Adrian [Pirness] will make sure you get your opportunity to speak. I need to find my glasses. They were in my pocket. My wife always laughs at me because I can never find them. They're always on my head or in my pocket. For those of you who read your congregation report, could you email them to Eric Jurmu. He will get [the reports] to the meeting secretary. They will be part of the minutes. There are a lot of people here, so we will keep our speaking turns rather short. Thank you to Jim [Jurmu] for putting the timeline together. Thank you Jim [Frantti] for putting the presentation together. Most of us probably feel like I do that our Spirits said amen to the presentation. We have heard that there are definitely some differences. So, I would encourage all of you who feel different or felt that the presentation did not answer your spirit, we could discuss that openly and start off the discussion that way. God has brought us all together here this weekend, so we can discuss these matters. It feels good that we can freely and openly discuss. We pray that God would give guidance, clarity and understanding. If you raise your hand … I will apologize. I probably do not know a lot of you. I may know someone next to you. So, I may say that the person is three people down. Even if I know you and forget your name, please forgive me. When I am standing up here, it gets a little bit … If it feels like there is a comment that we should address [immediately], say that before we go on down the line, we will try to break in that way. If someone brings something up and we feel that it would be beneficial not to wait for ten speaking turns to address it. We'll try to do that. With that I will open up the floor for any comments, thoughts or discussion. [8:15]

Walt Lampi, Rockford: Just a quick comment. I appreciate what Keith [Hillukka] said to encourage those people who may feel different. Maybe they feel intimidated, because they are only a few [in number] in a big group of people. I really feel that people must speak their heart. They [should] say what they are. They [should be] honest with themselves. Be free, even in that situation. They should make themselves known. They should make themselves clear. Just like the chronology of many, many meetings. There were many spiritual topics. It seems to me – I am the weakest and impatient – we have discussed these things for six years – maybe even more. The key to it, at least in my mind. Those people from Minneapolis, Wolf Lake and other congregations that have a different view of what is taking place in the last several years. They should be open about what is taking place. In a small private circle before the break, I visited with someone. I will not say who that was. I asked this question: What do you think is taking place? What has taken place over the last several years? I will be honest and say, I was quite surprised it was a question that was too difficult [to answer]. I am repeating myself. Dear friend, if you feel differently, please speak what is in your heart. [11:30]

Steve Laiho, WIlliston, ND: God's peace! Greetings from Williston. I want to take a turn off early on before I lose my train of thought or I chicken out, however you want to put it. I want to say that it has been good to be able to come here today. Up to this very moment, my heart has rejoiced. I have been able to touch base with a few brothers. After some time, you pick up your conversation [where it left off]. It seems like there has never been a period of time of 2 to 4 years [since we last met]. The spirit is able to rejoice in the heart. It can be a very fearful matter. It is not a small thing when the Spirit guides – God in his Spirit, strength and love is guiding his children. We are faulty and sin-fallen. We have our own opinions. It can get us into trouble. Until this day God has helped us. There are many prayers of those in Williston. My prayers are many. I want to remain traveling in this Kingdom. I want to be obedient and to put any gift that I have on the exchange table. I firmly believe that at this moment in my life, there is no doubt that the mother is the beautiful bride. It is before me even today. I pray to God that it will never be any different. I would like to hear the gospel. Can I believe my sins forgiven? [14:13]

Keith Hillukka: I do have a pen and paper. Just raise your hand and I will write down your name. We'll take it from there. I want to encourage everyone to be free.

Paul Plyvainen, Elk River, formerly from Minneapolis [15:45]: I am Paul Pylvainen from Elk River. I am formerly from Minneapolis. Keith, there was something in your report that you gave from Phoenix. It struck me. If you have it with you, would you read it again?

Keith Hillukka [moderator]: “Over the past few years, the enemy has been working to sow seeds of confusion, doubts and division in our congregation. We have had many congregation [meetings] and private discussions, where it has felt like a new and different message is spoken. The topics have been many. There seems to be an emphasis on knowledge and individual interpretation of the Bible. It has been said: prove to me that I am wrong. There also seems to be an emphasis on the Church Law of Christ, and caring for public matters and following the Church Law of Christ perfectly, rather than caring for matters that would be the most important. It has even been stated that God's Kingdom has been teaching incorrectly for many years. We have also noticed more separation. There are people congregating in separate groups after services. So far, there has been free and open discussion in our congregation discussions.” [17:10]

Paul Pylvainen, Elk River: I can relate to many of those items. The emphasis on knowledge came to my mind. I remember a certain brother who once told me. During the early years of the Awakening, many of the people could not read or write. But when they heard the message of the Gospel, which had the Living spirit of God and the living Word of God, it brought life to their heart – faith. I would like to ask for the gospel. [17:57]

Keith Hillukka, Phoenix: I took some lessons during the last year from my dear brother Arvin Pirness. He was moderating a discussion evening. He said that he had a lot of patience and he could stand there for a long time. Usually I get impatient. But I am going to take his advice. This is our discussion. I am here to moderate it.

Ray Waaraniemi, Rockford: I was just thinking that in order to help the discussion go forward, I agree with Keith [Hillukka] in that approach. If we could hear from those who might feel that there are differences. I have thought about this. We have heard that there is law-mindedness in North American Christianity. I think it would be good if someone is feeling that way so that they would express why they feel that way. What are the examples of [law-mindedness]? It would be the same in regards to the wrong doctrine on confession, and some of the other points that we have heard of. I think we should hear some examples of these so that we would understand where that thought comes from. [20:18]

Dan Parks, Menahga: This is Dan Parks from Menahga. There is the encouragement to be free, and not to be afraid to speak your piece, even though you may not have the same understanding. A portion of God's word came to my mind which is from Apostle Paul's letter to the Corinthians. It says this in the third chapter. “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” [1 Cor. 3: 9-15] The fire, I believe, is the fire of the Holy Spirit, which is here today. God knows our innermost thoughts. We cannot conceal it from the heavenly Father. It is most important that we would be open and not be afraid to even suffer loss, if that is what it means to remain as a child of God. So, be free, brother and sister. You are in a good place. If you have misunderstandings and errors, this is the best place to have them taken care of. I also would like to hear the gospel. [23:25]

Rocky Sorvala, Rockford: Rocky Sorvala from the Rockford congregation. I am glad to hear the encouragement to speak your mind here. As with any group, there seems to be a minority. And there seems to be a majority. I too, would encourage those from Minneapolis and the Wolf Lake congregations in the presence here of the love of God’s congregation to bring forth those things that are on your mind. You have sent out letters pleading with the North American Zion. I don't know how far the letters have reached. But they have gone throughout North America Zion. You asked that we would help. I know that this meeting was put together for help. Maybe it is not only those two congregations. But it could be anybody else – whatever congregation you come from. You know that there are Spiritual battles there [in your congregation]. Like the others who spoke ahead of me, I encourage you to please pour out your heart. We gather here to help one another in our lives of faith. We all need help in understanding to see where we may see things wrong. [We need] encouragement from our friends, as Jesus said. That is why we are here. It is because of the love of the congregation for your undying soul and everlasting life. Aside from the practical matter here, we have a large representation of the boards and ministers here from North America. I know that you are here also with your concerns and questions. We have heard that topics – spiritual abuse, continual forgiveness, and those things. I would encourage you to open your heart. I know as a servant for the congregation, some of you know the Bible much better than I do. You are able to articulate what you need to say or want to say. This is a forum for you. Please put away your fleshly concerns about being alone when speaking. You are among brethren here. We need to hear what your concerns are so collectively we can help you, or help us. Help everybody here. I, too, feel my own flesh and weakness. Can I hear the gospel? [27:40]

Loren Hillukka, Elk River, Saturday afternoon on May 7, 2021: I am timid to open my mouth. As I sometimes find, it is difficult to sit still. It is better to speak rather than to try and hold it in. One thought that has been going through my mind recently is the matter of how some [people] – in my mind – have battled so actively [against] any attempt to care for ministers or an attempt by a congregation to remove someone from the office of speaking. I shared this thought at a smaller meeting where there were some from each southern Minnesota board, as well as some people from the Minneapolis board. I very much remember when the Elk River congregation asked me to serve [as a minister]. My flesh was, and still is, very strong. It is telling me exactly what I am – a sinful and faulty human being. It is a constant battle to try and be obedient to God's will. When I ponder the situations where some have been asked to stop serving and to simply sit on the bench. We have seen where there have been groups of people who are very vocally against these attempts for care by the congregation. In the same way that my flesh battled, and still battles, being a speaker today, I can only imagine that the devil would take the opposite stance and cause my flesh to battle – why would I need to stop serving? I was called. Who are they to tell me to rest? If there is a minister who would struggle with that matter, I can only imagine how much more difficult that struggle would become when you have people supporting you and propping you up. [They are] gathering a group around you. In my own eyes, not only does this become more difficult for that minister’s own life of faith, but it causes confusion and division in God's Kingdom, when you see groups of people begin to follow man. In the end, that is what that is. It is going against the will of God, even as we heard in the presentation. One who has been called to serve, he may also be called to rest. For those who have been actively participating in this type of activity, I would humbly ask you to listen and see what your actions are causing. It is not just for that minister, but it is for you and others who also don't understand why such a one would have a time to rest.

I also thought of the importance of being an open book in front of God's congregation. It is something that is especially important as a speaker who is called by the congregation to serve. It is also very important for board members and delegates, and for every believer. Because faith is a gift that is given by God. It is not something, as Paul writes, written in stone tablets. But it is written in the fleshly hearts of men. When we are able to be open with each other and to be free, and to speak what is on our heart and mind, not to rely entirely on articles or recitations, even from scripture, but to be able to speak our own heart and understanding. Only then can someone else hear where we are. And also attempt to care for us. So many of these matters that we even saw in the presentation – points of doctrine – can be very difficult to discern where there is a difference. But we can also clearly see where fruits are different. Jesus at the end of The Sermon on the Mount, he talked about this. You will know each other by your fruits. Others can speak to the fruits of behavior and comments that have happened at meetings, especially at meetings over the years in Minneapolis. I can speak most recently to a congregation discussion in Elk River. We brought the recent letters from Minneapolis before the congregation. There was also the letter that Menahga had written to Wolf Lake. The hope was similar to last fall, after the southern Minnesota meeting [in Monticello on October 6, 2020]. Those [people] at the meeting were of one mind and one spirit. It would be good to pause from sending speakers to Minneapolis after that very visible split that happened in that congregation. Even in our Elk River congregation discussion, there are many questions about that [decision]. It was a very difficult matter to comprehend that we would not send ministers somewhere. But in the end, the congregation wanted to follow what the Holy Spirit had guided. I would say all but a very few were content to leave it there. It was the understanding that there were spiritual difficulties and spiritual problems in the Minneapolis congregation. And the pause of sending speakers was a form of rebuke. It was not hatred, rejection, but rebuke is love. The greatest act of love that a believer can show to another – love for one’s undying soul – to be able to take a step like that. Try to bring it to their awareness how serious the situation was. It's not just that some [people] left, as the first letter that Minneapolis sent out had noted, without acknowledging the reason why.

Back to that congregation discussion in Elk River. The hope was that we could openly present what had been going on since last fall, and to have the congregation discuss it. These types of matters of the workings of God's Kingdom are not things that even those who are called into the duties of being a board member and ministers can just decide and dictate on their own. It is so important to be open with the congregation and to discuss matters with the congregation. Because we are servants of the congregation, not rulers over it. There was a group of people from Minneapolis that came to the discussion evening. They chose to speak openly. Their comments were cordial. It was not a contentious debate. But there were some rather startling statements made. One statement was that they are at peace in Minneapolis now. There were many in our congregation who commented on this [statement]. Peace of an undying soul only comes when the conscience is clean. But Jesus also speaks of a different [kind of] peace. It is recorded in John chapter 14. There is also peace in the world. It is a very dangerous place to find oneself. If you are in opposition with God's Kingdom [and with] so many different congregations all throughout the world, yet you find yourself at peace. Also, at the end of that discussion some of our youth came who had been sitting in the cafeteria. I bring this up because I have heard reports stating otherwise. Some of our youth came and told us that it did not feel like church back there. There was a group from Minneapolis who were unable to sit still. They were pacing up and down. At some point, they were hollering and commenting on speeches by Elk River congregation members. I have been reached out to by someone who was not there. The person had heard how many hands down the line. The person stated that there was no disruptive behavior. There was [disruptive behavior]. The youth felt it. Even the youth who were sitting in the sanctuary and did not know what was going on in the cafeteria, he asked his mother on the way home: was there a fight in Elk River? These are indications that we are not in unity. As I tried to close that evening out, I trembled but I spoke very directly that evening. Later that evening, I asked some of you Minneapolis members: Did I cause offense? Because I have again heard comments coming back. My speech and several other speeches were bad, terrible speeches. But I put myself in front of the congregationIn in my closing remarks. They came and reassured me. They needed to hear that simple proclamation of faith to close the evening out because two very different voices had been heard. It brings us back to the point. When we hear two different reports from meetings, whether they are congregation meetings or broader meetings or discussions, God’s Spirit does not give two different points of view. Even when far away congregations have heard. I had one person who called me last week. He asked some of those questions about that meeting. They did not argue or debate, they just asked what had happened. They had been hearing a different story themselves. When different interpretations of meetings are spread around like this, it is not the work of unity. I would pray that those who have been in similar situations would be able to share why they felt in a certain way. We need to speak openly. We even need to put pride aside. What if we are wrong? We need to put ourselves before God's congregation, so if we are wrong that we can be cared for. Can I have my sins and doubts forgiven? [43:37]

Bruce Johnson, Wolf Lake on May 7, 2021: I might as well speak early [on] before I lose my courage. To start out, I would like to clarify. There was a statement made earlier that the Wolf Lake brothers have said the Holy Spirit has not been in the previous meetings. It was brought up in our last meeting in Menahga. I thought that I clarified it there. I have never heard it said that the Holy Spirit was not there [in the meeting]. The Holy Spirit is there. But also the enemy of souls attends every one of the meetings. So, I did not agree with that statement. Anyhow, going on. On this time-line issue. I would have to say that the meetings that Wolf Lake has had with the LLC brothers, we have only discussed three items. [One was about] abstinence. At the third meeting [between LLC and Wolf Lake] we agreed and said amen. The only other two items that we have ever discussed are forgiveness and the robe of righteousness. I guess that we disagreed [on those topics]. On the issue of forgiveness, would there ever be a time [when forgiveness would not be preached]? I don't know how to say it. We agreed with the sayings of Jesus that we would always forgive. Whether there is a time or never a time or could be a time, I think we leave that in God's realm. I think that the intent is that we should always forgive with the prayer that God is guiding us. We leave it to God to decide that matter. On the robe of righteousness, in the last meeting with LLC in Brainerd, one of the Wolf Lake Brothers explained how he believes about the robe of righteousness, which is Christ’s robe. [He said], it cannot be stained by our sins. We can lose the robe, but it cannot be stained by our sins. It is pure and holy. But the comment from the other side of the table was – for a lack of better words – of course [the robe] can be stained with our sins. Those are the only two items that we have disagreed on. There have been other things since then. But I just wanted to bring this out about our meetings. For me personally, I feel that our speakers are in the love of our congregation. They speak correctly. The disinviting [of speakers] is wrong. We had a meeting when the entire LLC board showed up in Wolf Lake [in December 2019]. Our congregation members pleaded with them. What was the “different voice” that you wrote about in the Voice of Zion and on your website? What is that “different voice”? The question was never answered. So, for me personally, I believe that Christ has his loving arms around our congregation. [Christ] does know us by our name. [47:53]

Tim Kesti, Monticello, Friday afternoon on May 7, 2021: First off, I would like to hear the gospel. In anticipation of this day, which has been on my mind for many weeks, I have had doubts about it at times. And other times I have had flashes of joy when we could be all joined together as one. That repentance and rejoicing would take place. Then we wouldn't have to come back tomorrow. Maybe we could come back and sing songs of praises at song services, or something of that nature. There is one portion of scripture that comes to mind in regards to being joined in the perfect spirit. It is in the First Corinthians. “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” [1 Cor. 1:10] That part of scripture has been on my mind quite a bit, especially when I hear what was just spoken [by Bruce Johnson]. There is clearly division. The reason why I say it: We are the LLC. In the last speech it was indicated that it was on “your” website. We are all LLC. If we are perfectly joined together, we would not have that kind of dialogue. It would be that we are one. We had a congregation meeting in Monticello to discuss the recent letter that came from Minneapolis. Do we pause from sending ministers to Minneapolis? During that meeting there were a couple of the comments that came from a couple of our members. It stuck in my mind when one sister said. If in my home and family in a short period of time – over the course of a week – over half of the family left, wouldn't it be a natural question to ask: What have I done wrong? Lord, is it I? It would be so natural to ask that question: Did I do something wrong? If you did not, it would be revealed in a short period of time that there was nothing wrong. Wouldn't it be a natural thing to ask? Another brother mentioned in the same meeting: it appears that there are two spirits present. He stated: both can be wrong but both cannot be right. It hit me quite a bit when I heard that. It is true. I go back to the scripture portion in Corinthians. If we were perfectly joined from heart to heart as believers, we would not be here and visiting about this exact matter. For me personally, it is not always clear what are the doctrinal differences. I think that God has allowed [for us to have] patience. The Bible mentions being patient. I think there is a good reason for that. Patience allows the fruits to bear. It is also scripture. We are known by our fruits. The fruits may come out in loud or in subtle ways. I was reminded, and later I viewed it as a fruit. There is the danger of holding Faith too close, someone stated. That comment did not sit well with me. I talked about my concern with one brother. He said to keep doing what you have been doing. There's never a danger of holding faith too close. I would say that the comment is a fruit of one’s spirit. I think today is a perfect opportunity to confess our faith and how we believe. And we can be reminded if it is not in alignment with God's congregation. We can rejoice if it is in alignment [with the congregation]. [53:25]

Neil Waaraniemi, Menahga: Keith [Hillukka], you mentioned in the Phoenix report that someone has said: Prove that I am wrong. I was reminded of an incident at a speaker’s camp [April 2018]. One brother compared his situation to that of Martin Luther. When Luther was before the Pope's representatives, he said that unless you show me with Scripture where I am wrong, I will not recant or repent. This brother who had been rebuked lovingly by God's congregation said that unless you show me by scripture where I am wrong, I will not repent. Dear brothers and sisters, do we hold God's congregation, as we saw in the last slide of Jim [Frantti’s] presentation, as the golden candle-stick, the mother of us all, which is unerring? If you would put yourself on such a high pedestal when God's children are rebuking us of sin, and we ask for proof like it would be the court of law, we are in a dangerous place. We have been taught since childhood that before God and His congregation we would be humble and desire to hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. When someone can say to God's Kingdom – prove it to me – things are very wrong. I forgot to say this at the beginning of my speech. Greetings from my wife. I visited with Kermit Ylitalo yesterday. He is concerned about these matters. He also wanted his greetings to be sent [to this meeting]. Can I hear the gospel? [56:33]

Keith Hillukka: I am going to read a message that somebody sent in. Adrian, was this just as a comment? It is from Galen Keplinger in Longview.

Galen Keplinger: “I was told by an LLC board member that another minister forgives too much and that minister has, since that time, sat down... who decides the balance of what is too much forgiveness? I did not hear that message of too much forgiveness... I believe different gifts are given to ministers and we receive them in different ways as needed...I don't agree with the push to have them sit...I want the discussions first... then if the need to sit is still there... so, be it…”

Craig Simonson, Spokane: I am Craig Simonson from Spokane, Washington. Hopefully, I can get my thoughts together in a sensible manner for most people to understand. I came here with nervousness about what I would hear. I was in trepidation: would the brothers speak of what I believe? This is what I have believed since I was a little child and sitting on my parent’s knee. I was worried that the preaching of the Gospel would become a work for the Minnesota believers. We heard in a congregation discussion [in Spokane], has there ever been discouragement from reading the Bible in the Minnesota congregations? When I listened to Jim Frantti’s presentation, I was comforted. The same message of forgiveness is readily available, but is not a work. It has never been preached as a work. If it ever is preached as a work, it will not come from the Holy Spirit. The encouragement was still there that we would read the Bible. We all understand that the Bible is opened to us, as God wills. We are not saved by understanding. We are not saved by going to a confessor father. We are saved by our faith through Christ's Redemption work on the cross. As Believers, we need continuous encouragement and continuous reminders. For me, it is a continuous confession of my weakness and poorness. The sins that I fall into do not condemn me If I have not taken care of them. I am still a believer and walking as a believer. I am heaven-acceptable at all times. The blood of Christ has covered me, and it will cover me. [1:00:27]

Jeff Raisanen, Alaska: Bruce Johnson is my uncle. Bruce, this is not directed to you personally. What I would like to hear from the Wolf Lake or Minneapolis members, or others, that have not felt the Holy Spirit at some of these meetings. I have talked to family members and dear brothers in faith who have attended the meetings. They have been in agreement with numerous congregations, but have not been in agreement with Wolf Lake or Minneapolis groups. I would like to know if you are not able to hear the Holy Spirit. It is hard to collect my thoughts. I think everyone suffers from that. All of the comments stated. The last meeting that took place in this [Monticello] Church [in April 2019]. I had attended it with our entire board and speakers from Alaska. Every one of us heard a different message. There were a couple of speeches during the middle of the day that were more confusing. And there were a couple of speeches at the end of the evening that were clearly different [from the other speeches]. I say that trembling. I don't know how else to say it, but it was a different message. We discussed it as we rode together back to the airport, when it was fresh in our minds. We were deeply troubled by it. But we also rejoice in the fact that we were all on the same page. I'm sorry but I can't keep it together. Can I hear the gospel? [1:03:48]

Keith Hillukka, Phoenix: Our list is open. A thought came to my mind. In one of the reports that came from the congregations, there are those situations where the husband and wife go to different congregations – one to Minneapolis and the other somewhere else. To me it seems clear that the spirit is not the same. Otherwise, why would you not go to the same church? It'd be good to find out why that is? For me, the only reason could be that they don't feel the unity of the spirit. The ones who have left the Minneapolis congregation and the others who decided that that is where they would go. They [left Minneapolis because they] did not feel the unity in the congregation that they left. I don't know if anyone has any thoughts on that. It seems like it is a deeper discussion that needs to be had. Who would like to be next? [1:05:24]

Lars Anderson, Rockford, on Saturday May 7, 2021: As we have heard, it is certainly good to be here and to hear corrections, if we need corrections. I don't have an answer for Keith's [Hillukka] question. Why does one spouse attend Minneapolis while the other spouse attends somewhere else? The only thought that comes to mind. People that attend services in one place or the other are as the spirit agrees. There has been a question: what are the differences? What is the other voice? I do not have the answer. I know that in the small discussions that I have had that those who are battling come from a place from above. They have more knowledge and understanding than myself, for example. There is not a place of humbleness to say – how do we see these matters? Can we be humble enough to realize that we do not have the answer and that we could reach out to a bigger group. But this is the way it is [they may say]. It is because of this and this and this. There has not been humbleness. To remain in God's Kingdom, you need to remain as little children. I know that as human beings our flesh can rise up very easily. We want to be right and be able to prove our point. It is a gift of God to be sat in that place as a little child and to hear the instruction. If we do not understand that instruction, we should be humble enough to accept that instruction. I think of the gospel and how it cleanses and heals. I am afraid that for some the gospel has become just words. They do not take it into their heart anymore. I say this because I have experienced this firsthand. [family details omitted] Is that what is happening here? Are we relying on our own way to get to heaven? Are we listening to the congregation? Are we humbling our hearts to hear the instruction of the congregation? Even if we do not understand, just believe and pray for guidance that the matters someday would be opened to us. There have been many questions over the years. We have discussed many doctrinal differences. But yet when the Holy Spirit has spoken, there have been many who have disagreed with what has been revealed by the Holy Spirit in the congregation on those matters. Even though people may say that they agree when it is backed by Scripture, do they really believe that in their heart? Or do they find those like-minded people with which to talk about it and gossip about it. Do they want to drag down those who have preciously instructed them? Do they look at [the caretaker’s] faults? Do they consider it condescending rather than caretaking? We need to put ourselves in the place of a child to accept and hear the rebuke of the mother. When we can believe those [sins] forgiven in our own heart, it is God who will give the increase. For my many doubts and sins, can I hear the gospel, as well? [1:11:13]

Carey Simonson, Saskatoon, Friday May 7, 2011: God’s peace! There are about ten of us gathered in Saskatoon. As I was about to take a turn, the others said a lot of greetings. It was nice to hear the summary from the different congregations and their messages. [How have these] matters – I will use it in a general sense – affected? The reports said – some in more detail and others and less – the degree that this has affected them. It has confirmed the weak prayers, I would say, of the [LLC] board last fall when we began to discuss – would now be the time to call such a meeting? Listening here, it struck me, especially Bruce's [Johnson] speech from Wolf Lake, and maybe to some extent Minneapolis. It's just how I heard it. There is unity in that [Wolf Lake] congregation. And we heard that there is now peace in Minneapolis. It struck me after listening to those summaries from over 30 congregations. Then Jim Frantt presented the congregation of God. He quoted from Luther: “I believe that on earth there is a little flock or community of pure Saints Under one head, Christ.” We heard [Bruce Johnson] say that Christ has his arms wrapped around the Wolf Lake congregation. I was pondering here. I don't know if someone from Wolf Lake or Minneapolis can explain. I wonder how it is rectified with this thought that there is a little flock, a community of saints under one head, Christ. It is called together by the Holy Spirit in one Faith, mind and understanding, as Luther speaks. If we are not in unity together amongst the different congregations, how do we rectify that? How does it feel for you? Is the Wolf Lake and Minneapolis congregations one under Christ, and, therefore, the others are not. I asked this question. I know Bruce also asked the question or he made a comment about the meeting in Wolf Lake [December 7, 2019], which I also attended as a LLC board member. We were asked as LLC board members: What was the different voice? I would say that in some ways that meeting went, I believe, as God willed. There were many questions and discussions. It clearly showed, as Bruce talked, that the [Wolf Lake] congregation was united but not in the same unity as the LLC board that was there to visit. I would also say that in our weak ways many [LLC] board members did try to speak and to address the issues that have caused division and concern In that meeting. But those speeches, I would say, did not bear fruit, as Jim [Jurmu] presented in a summary of the history. Those are my thoughts. I hope it does not distract the meeting, but helps. I want to hear, especially as it struck me about Luther. It is one small flock or community under the head, Christ. [1:17:30]

Ron Honga, Menahga, Friday May 7, 2021: Somebody asked about having the situation in trying times. One spouse is attending a certain church but the other spouse is not able to attend that church. They need to go elsewhere. My thoughts so often return to the situation in our family, my wife’s family, when the children in the Martin family were growing up. During storms of the ‘Kirkkokunta’ [Federation or Small First Born] Heresy, what happened in the 1930s and 1940s, my wife's parents ended up in that spirit. It happened so. When my mother-in-law was expecting a baby [my wife], she had a discussion in Minneapolis with the Wittenberg family, grandma and grandpa Wittenberg and her brother [John]. My mother-in-law recalled how she heard the call of God. He always shared it with the family that she did not understand. She could not precisely see where she had gone wrong together with her husband. But she heard the voice of the Holy Spirit calling her back. She received the grace of repentance from that spirit. When she returned to where she lived in Finlayson, Minnesota – if I recall it correctly – a ‘Kirkkokunta’ minister met her at the railroad station. He picked her up. He was going to bring her to church. She openly confessed to him that I need to go home. I will no longer be attending your services. I have received the grace of repentance from that wrong spirit. God helped my mother-in-law through her life. She often shared with us the importance of living faith and to be obedient to the congregation of God. We are in the midst of it today, dear brothers and sisters. The congregation of God is around us. The Holy Spirit is instructing and teaching. The words of Jesus have always been close to me, even in my own life. Jesus reminds: “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.” Then he reminds in the next verse. “He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.” [Matt. 10:35- 39] May we pray, all of us today, that those who are lost and confused in our midst would lose their life for His sake. That they would be able to comprehend the forgiveness of sins, which is preached from the kingdom of God. That they could accept simply and humbly for themselves the absolution of their sins. Can I believe my sins forgiven? [1:124:05]

Keith Hillukka: It is time for Mark Skoog to take over as moderator. I wanted to say before we switched. At the end of Ron's comment, I have had the same prayer in my heart when coming here. I feel my own tiredness and weakness. I need to hear the gospel. Can I believe it? Toronto is on-line. They will make a comment over Zoom. Toronto can go ahead.

Olli Vanska, Toronto: God's peace. This is Olli Vanska from Toronto. I want to bring you dear fellow travelers with the words of Apostle Paul. “For my brethren, dearly beloved, who I long for, my joy and Crown. Stand steadfast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” [Phil] And I have been listening here [to the meeting] with your travel friends in Toronto, I have rejoiced but there are also very concerning voices. When we heard both of Jim's [Jurmu and Frantti] presentations, There is certainly time to discuss and have this continent-wide meeting. It brought to my mind the text from Genesis. It is a very familiar text about two brothers, Esaus and Jacob. The two brothers grew up in the same family. They were dear to each other. They got the same upbringing. But the time came in Esau’s life. Sin came so precious that he did not want to listen anymore to mother’s or father’s instruction. We remember when Isaac got older, he said that he wanted to give his blessing to his son. Mother knew about Esau’s life that he was not believing anymore. He lived in sin. He had taken an [unbelieving] wife. Mother instructed Jacob to be obedient to her. Rebecca said to Jacob, when he doubted. Jacob said that he is not a hairy man. I am a smooth [skinned] man. Father will know [who I am], and a curse will come upon me. But mother said, may the curse be upon me. My son, just obey my voice; go fetch me a lamb. We remember that Jacob went and fetched for his mother [a lamb]. Mother is the one who made the savory meat. This is what his father loved. Father heard that it was not Esau’s voice, but he smelt [the odor] of Esau. Isaac asked Jacob to come closer. Isaac kissed Jacob. Isaac could smell the odor of his raiment. Then Isaac blessed Jacob. Jacob received the blessing. When Esau came from his hunting trip, he made savory meat himself. It was not mother who made the savory meat, but Esau did it himself. Esau gave the meat to his father [Isaac]. Esau said to this father: eat this! Isaac was shocked. He asked, “who are you?” Esau said that I am your son, Esau, your firstborn. When Esau realized that he lost the blessing from his father, He cried with a great and exceedingly bitter cry. Esau said to his father: “bless me, even me also, O my father. ”. Isaac said, “ [Gen. 27:34] “Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son?” [27:37] Then Esau asked, “Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.” [37:38] When I was listening to some of these reports, I heard the begging to hear a blessing. But at the same time to meal and the [savory] meat that was made was made by the human carnal mind. There was no familiar voice in it. It was foreign. It did not bring peace. And it troubled the children of God. Esau went directly to speak to his father [Isaac], but Jacob went to talk to his mother [Rebecca] first. When I was listening to those reports, I heard the same desire as Esau had to hear the blessing. But I did not hear a willingness to repent. Esau did not have that willingness either and the desire to repent from his sins. Those [people] who have gone away and whose spirit is not answering to our spirit, now Rebecca is crying [or you]. Rebecca is crying that I would not lose my Jacob [Esau?] In this fight. It is such a serious matter when we talk about obedience to the mother congregation. I heard that there is no fear of God anymore. But there is still a willingness to hear the blessing. Dear brothers and sisters, we cannot live with a divided heart in God's Kingdom. As we heard in Jim's [Jurmu] presentation, this has been going on for years. One thing that I heard in Wolf Lake’s report that they only saw their own spirit or their own fruits. They have been long-suffering. Dear brothers and sisters – if we can still call you brothers and sisters – who have gone into a wrong spirit: God is calling, maybe the last time. He is calling you to come away and flee from those teachers who are teaching this wrong spirit. They are bringing so much sorrow and confusion to God's congregation. The “mother” still leads us to the father. We have to remember this. When God takes away his spirit, we are [then] blind. We cannot see. But we have a hope and prayer of heart that Rebecca's voice would still be heard, when the Holy Spirit speaks through the mother congregation. Dear child, repent. Repent from those ways. We pray that God would not reject you but that you would still have the time of grace to come back. It is sad when someone leaves God's Kingdom and rejects God. But oh the man that God rejects. Rebecca is crying today that Jacob would not be lost. We have heard such a loving voice again in this meeting. The call is still being proclaimed in God's Kingdom. Our prayer of faith and heart is that I thought I would still give you time to awaken from your sinful life and fight against the mother congregation. Come back to this precious Kingdom. May God give us the wisdom of the Holy Spirit during these days that peace, love and unity would always remain in this Kingdom. I feel so small myself. I feel that I have so little understanding. I feel so sinful. Can I believe my sins and doubts forgiven? [1:37:30]

Marty Pylvainen, Elk River, Friday May 7, 2021: I am Marty Pylvainen from the Elk River congregation. The thought came to me this afternoon, thinking about Jim's [Frantti] comments this morning about forgiveness and the forgiveness of sins. He referenced many Scripture portions about forgiveness. When we consider all the faiths of this world, especially the former heresies. There has always been one central question. What is the definition of those divisions? The question is: what is sin? We are born with the sense of what is right and wrong. We have a conscience, which is knowledge together with God of sin. We know – and I know from my own personal experience – when the conscience becomes covered with sin, it leads one away from faith. When we think about the question – what is sin? – it is good for us to speak with other believers. It was already mentioned here by another speaker. Sometimes we may go looking for another opinion that might agree with us. But we should perhaps speak to a wider audience when we have questions. I think the most important question that we need to ask ourselves when considering what sin is? What does God think? Are we willing to humble ourselves before his mighty hand to realize our own sinful condition? Or do we rather think with our own minds what sin is? If our mind tells us that something is not sin, it is also telling us that there is no need for forgiveness. The enemy of souls came to Eve with the question: Did God truly say this? I think that each one of us needs to place ourselves before God to realize how much forgiveness we truly need in our lives – even for matters that we do not understand. But rather we need to be obedient to the Holy Spirit that speaks in God's congregation. Can I have my own sins forgiven? [1:43:02]

Derek Mattila, Williston ND, Friday May 7, 2021: It is with a trembling heart that I speak what is on my mind. I would like to hear the gospel. I think, like Craig [Simonson], it was comforting to see the presentation that Jim [Frantti] gave. My heart said Amen to it. That is how I believe. I can't pretend to know everything that has gone on in Minnesota. I don't know the issues. I do know this. There are those that I have had discussions about faith with before, but it is no longer possible. The other spirit is there. I have heard comments: Can't we move past that and move on? Let's start fresh. In these battles, my mind has turned to the example of the servant Elijah. He went out in the morning and saw the enemy roundabout. He was fearful. Elijah prayed and he was able to see the Heavenly Host [2 Kings 6:15-18]. The Heavenly Host was surrounding him. Power of God was with him. Power of God is with us today. It is the gospel message of salvation. That is how we start fresh. When the gospel is preached to a penitent heart, everything is forgotten. [1:45:30]

Loren Keplinger, Longview, Friday May 7, 2021: I am Loren Keplinger from Longview, Washington. It is with great joy that I bring greetings from Longview. It is a great joy that I am here in your midst. We can hear the voice of the Good Shepherd guiding and leading our meeting today. It is with many prayers from our congregation, as well as around the nation and the world, that we are meeting today. It is in hopes that God would open and reveal to listening ears. My heart said amen to the presentations that were given. I just wanted to clarify a few things. We heard the report from Longview. I would say there is more peace today in Longview than there was a few months ago. There were quite difficult moments in our congregation with the concern of one of our speakers. We attempted to meet and to spend time discussing this concern. The meeting did not result in a fruitful discussion. But it resulted in the speaker being asked to be rested. Some of the congregation's concerns were laid [to rest]. But there is yet today a division in our congregation. Is a palpable issue that remains, as it likely remains in many congregations. We, in God's kingdom, as we heard, are very close to this with our families. But when one member suffers, we all suffer. Today, we are all suffering over this concern. It is with my hope and prayer that I join with many of the thoughts here, especially the encouragement to speak. Olli’s Encouragement to speak. That we would hear from that side. We are very concerned about where they are at. We hope and pray that some miracle could occur. That there could be a discussion. And that God could reveal where things are, where these matters are. That those that are leading and guiding this group would also realize where they are at. I was writing down some thoughts before I came. I was asked to moderate the discussion tomorrow. I had written down the same quote as we have heard twice already from Genesis. The devil asked Eve: did God really say this? The devil was sowing doubt into Eve's mind. I don't understand the reason or the rationale for this current division. It seems as if the intent has been to stir doubt into struggling members of God's Kingdom. How quickly we can be filled with doubts. The intent has been to continue to sow doubts. They have gathered support and created a division. You might say that the intent has been successful. We hope and pray that God would open the ears and allow those to see. In His kingdom we see the fruits of patience, even in this timeline of meetings that was just displayed. There have been many, many attempts to come together, to understand and discuss. Yet today, we have many concerns. We are long-suffering. We want to suffer and encourage those to come and speak. My prayer today is that we would have a good discussion. But also those who feel otherwise, who feel unity in their congregation, that you would speak openly about how you believe. May God bless this meeting. For my own faults and sins, can I ask for the gospel? [1:51:29]

Steve Kallinen, Monticello, Friday May 7, 2021: I am Steve Kallinen from the Monticello congregation. We are assembled here – whether in person or online through Zoom – on a very sobering time frame to look at the patience that God has had. It was outlined this morning in the presentation timeline [by Jim Jurmu]. What a patient and loving God we have. He has been calling you with such love and care for those who have been opposing the voice of the spirit; opposing the voice of the mother. They don't see the beauty of God's Kingdom that is assembled here. We heard a second presentation this morning [by Jim Frantti]. It very preciously spoke about our understanding of faith. We are not here to compromise or weigh the differences and come up with an average of how we would understand. But God's word does not change. It is the same yesterday, today and forever. God calls those who began opposing or turning against [God’s kingdom], or are seeking a different way. They may think that what the mind thinks is a better way. Or learned understanding might say – it is an easier or a better way. But the narrow road of life is the same, unchanging way of faith. In our life when we carry our portion of flesh, I thought of the Old Testament portion: “I set before you life and death.” There is also a very precious message: “choose life.” Hear dear friend, who has been in opposition and who is traveling with a different spirit in your heart. Hear the voice of God that is calling you unto the grace of repentance. There was much in the presentation this morning that touched on the matter of forgiveness. There have been different understandings on this topic. It's even been to the point of not wanting to acknowledge parts of the Bible that speak about forgiveness and things that are forgiven here on Earth and also before God and Heaven. They do not want to accept the portion of the Bible that said: Sins that are retained, they are retained before God in heaven. If we would add to God's word with our own understanding, or with our mind will try to eliminate or ignore the parts in the Bible that we do not agree with and [war against] our own flesh. It says in one of the last portions of the Bible: If we add or take away from God's word, He will also take away our name from the Book of Life. It is such a sobering and serious matter. All those of you who have spoken with different voices and have not felt the unity and Oneness with God's children, God is lovingly calling you unto the grace of repentance. Do not ignore this call. Do not play with these matters. Do not take them lightly. It is as serious as life and death. Dear brothers, it is good that we can all speak openly to relate even a small portion to help those who have been struggling against the Kingdom of God. We do not want that souls would be lost on the wayside, into heresy or into the world. May God help each one of us so that we can humble our heart before God and His congregation. I also need your help in my life of faith. I ask you if you could forgive me for my many sins and doubts? [1:56:32]

Blair Kariniemi, Spokane, Friday May 7, 2021: I am Blair Kariniemi from Spokane. As I was sitting here, I was thinking about many of the conversations that I have had with individuals in our congregation or on our board about these timely issues. Recently, we have had a discussion about sending speakers to Minneapolis. I have also had many conversations over the last few years in regards to taking down ministers and some of these [other] events have taken place. I will be honest with myself – I have struggled with many of these actions that have taken place. But as I sit here and hear these presentations and discussions, I think that some of these actions are a symptom of what is going on. I feel that even if we would all come to a unanimous decision tonight that we will send speakers to Minneapolis or we will send the speakers anywhere. If we would take such an action, I don't feel that the issue would be resolved. I don't know what the issue is. I know that many of the things that I have heard, when coming here, I was a little concerned or fearful that I would find myself not agreeing with how Zion in the Midwest – for the lack of a better term – believes. When Jim [Frantti] gave the presentation, I felt very comforted. I felt that this is exactly how I believe. I even felt that I cannot imagine that there is even one here that does not believe the same as this [presentation]. It made me think: what is the issue? What is the problem? I can tell that there is an issue. In Spokane we are a little bit removed from this [situation]. We do not see and live this day-to-day. Even being here today, I can feel that there are issues. You can sense how certain people interact with other people. You can sense how some people look [at others]. There is a hesitancy. You can sense that there is an issue here. I ask myself: how is this possible? I think there is only one thing that can break the spirit. It is sin. There is love that has been lost, for whatever reason – [because of the] things that have been said, done, misunderstandings, wrong doctrine. I don't know what the cause is. There is love that has been lost amongst many here. I would ask that each one of us would ask ourselves: Where am I? Often when we think of sin, we think of “common sins”. But two things jump out at me: Bitterness and pride. I think there are aspects of these things that are prevalent here. I would encourage that we would ask ourselves: Where am I in this? Am I prideful? Am I bitter? I would encourage each one of us to humble ourselves. And when I think of that I think: Can we humble ourselves? I would say that we should each have the prayer that God will humble us and that He will put us in a spot of humility. Ultimately, even this comes from God. I feel that without love being restored – that needs to be the first step. Even for any discussions – I’m sure there will be many discussions in God's kingdom about matters of faith and doctrine. These can be fruitful discussions, when the love is restored and the spirit is unified. There is one portion of Scripture that often comes to me. I don't remember where it's from. It has something to do with looking at the speck in your brother's eye, while you have a beam in your own eye [Matt. 7:1] It is something like that. A visual of this portion of Scripture has struck me. I could be walking around accusing others, while I have a two-by-four in my eye. How obvious that must be to everyone else that I am walking around with a beam in my eye and I am pointing out speck in theirs. I think that there is a very important lesson here in that single verse of Scripture for all of us. I guess that is all that I have. [2:03:53]

Walt Lampi, Cokato: I would like to refer back to Olli Vanska’s comments. Those are the same types of thoughts that have been with me. I think they are quite fitting. I am not quite sure how to make my question. I would hope that the friends from Minneapolis, Wolf Lake and other places, perhaps, would think about [those thoughts]. Esau saw that his mother was quite faulty. I think that is what is happening here, too. I think the view of the congregation, as we have heard, has become dimmed for many people. People see the “mother congregation” as faulty. I think because of that there is an element of false watching. Everything that they see and hear is interpreted as proof of the doctrine of the law, a law-minded type of doctrine or teaching. The words of Jesus come to mind, too, when he spoke to the Pharisees and the scribes. “They strain at gnats but they swallow camels.” I think that is happening here. Some people are so intent on knowledge, the study of Luther, that it has become almost like a legalistic thing. They weigh everything that is said to the point that they cannot forgive the faults of the brothers and sisters in faith. During the time of the caretaking meetings in the 1980s there were mistakes made. There were things that should not have been said, so on and so forth. Many of us here today lived that time. But we do not see it in the same way. We do not see that the mother congregation was faulty or tarnished. We see it as a time of warfare and a time of struggle. Nevertheless, God preserved us in faith and took us through these times. We must not look at the caretakers who cared for us as though they should be perfect. Or that all things should be done with perfect words or said in just the right way. I think it is a mistake. We need to realize that those times of warfare that we experienced were not pleasant. Nevertheless, that is what happened. God's kingdom is a battling Kingdom. I would put this as a question. Those who are struggling against God's Kingdom, even though you don't feel that you are, are sure that you are not simply false watching. You have picked out the faults of individuals either in the present or the past. You are so concentrated on this that you have lost sight of the mother congregation as the pillar and the ground of truth, as the golden candlestick, as our home. Sometimes we speak about doctrinal errors. What is the doctrinal error? I think it is related to Esau and his connection to his mother and father, as Olli [Vanska] pointed out. The doctrinal error is right before us. You have no spiritual mother. You have lost the view of the congregation mother. That is at the basis [of this problem]. If you see the children of God as dearly redeemed fellow travelers, you would have love for them. You would have compassion for them. You would put the best construction on what is said. I sometimes worry that a question is here. Why are we talking so many years later talking about things of the 1980s? I hate to even think this. Perhaps in some instances the seed of bitterness has been planted. Years later it has come to spring up. There is a danger that it would spring up as unbelief. The best advice has been given in different forms. It comes down to personal faith. No matter what's happened in the past, no matter what the errors were, we are here today by God's good grace. He has kept us in his kingdom. We cannot be consumed by the things of the past. Recently, someone called me from a different part of the country. The person expressed this thought. We are in danger of following man, just like people followed Torola in the Torola days and at other times. We are in danger of that right now. In regards to spirits and spiritual warfare – some say that there is no “Kososian Spirit”. That was a made-up type of thing [they say]. When a person sees the mother as being faulty, then you cannot feel the love of the mother either. I feel that is what has happened. I am friends to many of you in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake and other places, who are warring against the mother congregation. So, you do not feel her love. You interpret the intents to [give] care and discuss as being a lack of love. Actually it is love. It is love for the undying soul. There will never be a perfect approach or perfect words that can be said in these types of situations. But you have to look beyond that. It is God speaking through his spirit in the congregation. I have to emphasize what others have said. We don't know if this will be the last time you'll be in the presence of the children of God. It is like the scripture says. “Harden not your heart.” Why has this happened? It is because of a negative view of God's Kingdom, the mother congregation, I think. There is much love here. All of these years of attempt to clarify, to teach and to use the word – the written word but also the preached word. God has been long-suffering. He has been kind and patient. But the spirit of God will not forever strive with men. I want to hear that gospel, too, for myself. [2:15:12]

Rick Nevala, Rockford, Friday May 7, 2021: I have sat and listened today. In my own way, I thought to myself. When I listened to each person speak, the perspective or viewpoint of each [person] is very evident. I believe that we are different voices to each other. Maybe some of the congregations do not know what the real issues are. I would say that here in the Midwest that the issues have been talked about for so long that it has been tiresome. It has been good to hear some of that discussion about that. When I listened today – I will paraphrase what Walt [Lampi] said: Perfect versus the not perfect type of discussion. That is what I have heard. Many here have seen their faults and wondered if they have seen things in the right way. And there are others who know the answer. They know their piece. Again it goes back to God's word. “He who thinks he stands takes heed lest he falls.” [1 Cor. 10:12] I have been asked by a couple of people: What my opinion is about how to solve these issues? I have mentioned two things. One is that we need humility and to get rid of our own pride. Second, we need God to open [the matters] to us. To me, it is as simple as that. When I have thought about my part in discussions over the years, at the beginning there were a few years of fear, doubt and trembling. I wondered, am I the cause of this somehow? What is my role in this? What have I done or said? In the last couple of years, I have finally come to this conclusion. I don't have a different way to believe. I believe as I have always believed. I have come to the same conclusion, as the disciple said: Where would I go? [John 6:68] There is no other place. When I have thought about this and listened to discussions like this. The issues are talked about at a high level. No one speaks what they believe. We have had similar discussions like this. Weeks later you may hear rumblings. They make it sound like it has been some personality conflict between some brothers. In my mind, if you would take those brothers away from the discussion, the discussion stays the same. I believe as I believe. Unless God opens it to me, I cannot see another way. One of the topics we talked about today was not sending speakers to Wolf Lake or Minneapolis. I want you to hear my own personal perspective on this. I have spoken openly in our congregation. I was happy that our congregation took the stand that they did to not send speakers. We have had meetings over the years in this area. Afterwards, for some [people] you think that there is hope. With others, it seems like we have grown further and further apart. The language becomes harsher and harsher even in open meetings. At one of our last Midwestern board meetings, one comment was so stark and had such strong language, in my mind, about my dear brothers in faith. I couldn't help but think: if asked to go [to Wolf Lake], I will not go. If I am told to go there, I will resign. Being a minister or a board member in the big scheme of things means nothing to me, If I do not have faith. I agree with Blair [Kariniemi] on this question: where are we? Where am I? We have asked those questions over the years. We tried to answer as best as we could. We finally come to our own surety of faith of where we are. We are asked questions in public or personal discussion about how we believe in things. We are told that we have a confession doctrine, or this or that. We need to go to the Word [of God]. We say that we have been going to the Word. We have nowhere else to turn [to other than the Word]. That is how we got to this place today. Blair [Kariniemi] also mentioned that he has seen looks on people's faces here. I picture myself sometimes being shell shocked. Over the last few years, I've come to meetings or the board meetings in Rockford. Words that you say in weakness are spread almost worldwide even before you get home. Recordings are made. Speeches are dissected. Then you wonder why there is no freedom. There is no urge to care for matters between the brothers. At least I haven't found myself so fruitless in the work. Again, that is where we find ourselves. I told some people at a board meeting not long ago. There was a question: what would we tell Minneapolis? What question could we ask to try and help resolve the problem? I can only see it in this way. I think that if you are true to yourself and not disingenuous, you will know and see the groups that have formed. There is a group in Minneapolis. I don't know how far it has gone. It feels like self-righteousness. They know things. They speak to you. They find all of these articles. They tell you to go to the Word. You have not gone to the Word. One brother said, it is almost legalistic in a way. If you would have only followed the Word of God. When you asked: haven't you felt the guidance of the Holy Spirit? They may say something to the effect: The spirit is found in the Word. You need to go to the Word. There are no answers. There is no return. For instance, if I say: where have I gone wrong? If I am in a confession doctrine, tell me. What have I done or said? It is just a generic response: go to the Word. I totally agree with that. We do need to go to God's Word. It is our highest Authority. I don't know of any services or discussions where we have not used God's Word in some form or another, whether it is paraphrased or directly quoted. Along with that, we talk about those who no longer serve [as speakers] or in positions of a pastor. People questioned, sometimes with good reason, if you don't know the reasons. I don't blame anyone for wondering or questioning. That is not the point. I found one part of God's word when I served last Sunday. The gospel is a core part of this. I agree that it affects the congregation and the spirit, and how it all ties into this. Gospel that we are so familiar with. The Scriptures say that it is like rain. There is the early and the latter rain that goes through. One part of God's word talks about those who work against God's Kingdom. The Bible uses this term. It is like a rainless cloud that passes over. The words sound familiar – the words that replace the good message of the Gospel. We might say: dear brother or sister, you can believe your sins forgiven in Jesus’ name and blood. It has been replaced with things like: just believe. It is almost like in sermons we have been led to understand our sinfulness. Then there is a comment: just believe. Trust in the merits of the works of Christ. Yes, that is the truth. But it is like a rainless cloud that went over. It didn't refresh. It didn't nourish. It sure did not bear fruit. I have so little understanding and doubts and fears. Can I hear the gospel? [2:30:20]

Andy Kesti, Phoenix, Friday May 7, 2021: I am Andy Kesti from Phoenix. Before I make my comment, I would like to hear the gospel. Can I believe my sins forgiven? Over the past years as these discussions and fruits of these different viewpoints of living faith have become more evident, It made me reflect back on something that happened to me when I was about 17 years old. I was at the International Peace Gardens … I recall when I was 15 to 17 years old, I felt myself drifting further and further away from living faith. I hadn't given up my faith but I was drifting away. At the International Peace Gardens we used to meet in this Lodge. I remember walking to the back door of the lodge. I was looking for some of my friends, but I did not see them there. I remember looking at the people in the lodge and thinking: Who are these people? They do not look like they are very fun people. What am I doing here? I walked outside and I was leaning up against the wall of the lodge. I was probably smoking a cigarette. God sent an angel. His name was Jon Bloomquist. Jon came up to me and asked: Andy, how are you? Jon probably only knew my name. I told him, I'm fine. He said that you are standing out here by yourself. You dress differently. You and your friends talk differently. You act differently than the rest of the Believers. He said, what is bothering you? I looked at Jon and said, nothing. Jon didn't know what was bothering me, but he could see from my actions and the fruits of how I was living. He could see that there was something troubling me. Something was wrong. But I wasn't willing to admit it. Even though Jon couldn't put a name to it, there were two who knew what the problem was. It was God and it was me. I thought about it often, as we had these discussions, People talked about proving where I am wrong. Show me where I'm wrong. None of us can see inside of the heart of another person. We can only talk about the fruits that we have been spending years talking about. But in each of our hearts we know – and God knows – what is wrong. However, about nine months later, I needed two more angels to come to me. I was at my unbelieving girlfriend's house. Her mother was gone for the weekend. It was maybe nine at night. Two of my believing friends knocked on the door. Andy, the haps are at your house tonight. I remember looking at them and feeling a wrestling match going on inside of my heart. Do I want to stay here or do I want to go there? They said, come with us. I felt fortunate again that God was able to allow me to hear the message that the Holy Spirit had to tell me through these believers. I remember going to the house. It looked so beautiful. They were singing one of my favorite songs. They were my childhood friends and older brothers and sisters of my childhood friends. I felt this warmth and welcoming – This is where I want to be. I was able to get matters taken care of. Sin continues to fall on me, as it does all of us. We put matters away as it falls [on us]. Five years ago I was asked to go along with someone to visit a person who was struggling in these matters that we are talking about in Phoenix. We went to visit with him. The conversation was an open conversation. The person who was with me asked the question of who we were visiting: Why are you fighting against God's Kingdom? The person's response was: Maybe I am in God's kingdom and you are all fighting against me. The conversation stopped there. Do you understand what I just said? His point was: maybe I am the one who is right and all of you are wrong. He said that maybe it is my job to correct and guide here. As we left the house, I asked the other person: What do you think about that? He said that I fear that that brother no longer heeds the call. I thought for many many weeks about the conversation. What if he is the one who is right and everybody else is wrong? The fruits that were born with that person were certainly not fruits of a believer. I felt like the right path is the path that I was on, not the path that he was trying to teach. So, I guess I would just ask for all of us, but especially for those who feel like they have to correct the believers right now and to explain a different path or to explain the right way or give this correction, maybe you are like I was, when Jon came to talk to me. Maybe you know why you want to correct it. You know what different path you want to create. But to say that outloud right now, maybe there would be too much correction if that path was said out loud today. I encourage you to remember like a little child to please look into your heart. Ask yourself, what is the end game of this correction that you are trying to give to God's Kingdom? What is the end game of the guidance that you are trying to deliver, that obviously has not been well received? Why are you trying to guide us this way? I don't understand. [2:37:44]

David Niemi, Toronto on May 7, 2021: God's peace to everyone there. It has been good to join in [the meeting]. I join in with most of the comments that have been spoken – I would say the majority of them. It felt good to listen and to hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. I had thoughts of this meeting that was coming up. We have known about it for a few months. I have thought about it in my own mind. I was at the Minneapolis meeting [April 2017], which was a board member’s workshop. I do not remember the year. There was a presentation kept by Sam [Roiko] on the Watchman on the wall. I remember at that meeting that there were a couple of strange voices. They were not so bold, but they spoke openly at that meeting. I was in Outlook at the summer services [in 2015]. There was a strange voice heard there [Sermon by Darwin Lake]. I was at the minister's camp [in 2018]. There were some strange voices. But it felt good to leave from there. it was related by Jim [Frantti] that the gospel is preached and it seemed like matters were taken care of. I was also at the Monticello meeting after a letter [by Warren Raisanen and Eric Skoog] had been sent to the congregations. Jim [Jurmu] referenced this. There again was heard the voice of the Good Shepherd. Brothers from Toronto had to leave the Monticello church a little bit early to catch a flight back home. Remotely we were able to join in and yet here. We heard the brothers from Wolf Lake speak. When we heard that voice, we all looked at one another. It was a strange voice. It seems like as time has gone on, this strange voice has become stronger and more bold. It wants to teach God's Kingdom. I can't help but think of that portion in 1st Kings [19], where to the Prophet Elijah came that small still voice of the spirit of God. It is a weak and humble voice. It speaks through God's people. I know that it has been said that we do not go by feelings. Has one brother at the beginning of this meeting said in his report. People had asked, “tell us what is wrong.” They have not received an answer [they said]. I have thought of the portion of God's word when Nicodemus came to Jesus [John 3]. He had questions for Jesus. Jesus said in the Gospel of John 3:8, “The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound. You cannot tell where it is coming from and where it is going. So is everyone that is born from the spirit.” Even Jesus explains the spirit. we cannot explain it. We do not know where it comes from, but we feel it. There has been that strange voice in God's Kingdom. It is spreading. I remember years earlier. You only heard about troubles in Wolf Lake and Minneapolis. But now it seems that we hear from many parts of Zion of these troubles. We see how it is spreading. It comes to mind about this past ministers camp, where we were not able to attend. Jim Frantti said that this meeting at Monticello is not the reason to call a heresy. I cannot help but fear. Has it already happened? There is such a Great Divide. We saw the timeline of all of these meetings which have happened. Again and again nothing is solved. When we think of the matter about serving in Minneapolis, which just recently came up. There have been some brothers who have served in Minneapolis after this decision was made. It comes to mind. and I question. Do you brothers feel that you are more knowledgeable and wiser than God's Kingdom? You have gone there to serve regardless of what Zion has decided. When I think about the archival of sermons on the LLC website, I have thought in this way. We have decided in Zion not to call those brothers from Wolf Lake to serve. We have decided not to serve in Minneapolis. Those minister’s sermons are in the archives. I have listened to some of those sermons. I must say, I have not received food for my soul. I have visited with other brothers in regards to this issue. They have felt the same. I would encourage you brothers and sisters that have been battling against God's Kingdom, who are always coming back with questions and looking for answers, I simply say to repent. Humble yourself and repent from that wrong spirit. I think of life in our marriage, oftentimes we can offend others. We often do not realize or know why we have offended [the other person]. But we still take care of matters. The Gospel heals. I think of this dear Toronto congregation. All through my youth there were battles – fierce, fierce battles. Many of you were gathered there in Monticello. You know of these battles. We who are in Toronto know how tiring those battles can be. But when the gospel can be preached and it can be believed personally, the fruit will show. We have had many years of Peace in Toronto. There has been much growth in our congregation. God has blessed our congregation. Dear brothers and sisters who are battling, repent from that spirit. Humble yourself to hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, even if you do not understand. Simply believe. Put sin away. Think of the last questions in Jim’s [Frantti] presentation about God's congregation. Do you see it as a pillar and a ground of Truth? Do you see it as a golden candlestick and as a loving mother that cares for you? Hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. As the writer of the letter to the Hebrews says, Today if you will hear his voice, harden not your heart. It exhorts one another daily lest you be deceived and fall into unbelief. Put that sin away. Repent and believe the gospel. I myself feel my own weakness and trembling. I feel my own sinfulness. I ask, can I hear the gospel for myself? [2:48:12]

Travis Ruonavaara, Colorado, Friday, May 7, 2021: I am Travis Ruonavaara from the Roaring Fork congregation in Colorado. I have too many thoughts swirling in my mind. I will not speak to all of them. One thought in particular that is close to me during these last months – maybe six months. It is the question whether we would go and serve in those congregations in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. It is one of those questions where I want to be obedient to the instructions of God's Kingdom, to my local congregation and to the board. They have also given me guidance to support my understanding of this. I am weak in my understanding, and I go back and forth. It is not a light matter. My thoughts turn to my family members who attend the Minneapolis congregation. I have close friends [there] that I grew up with. I consider them my peers. I was able to teach at confirmation school last summer for the first time. Some of those innocent and believing children attend the Minneapolis congregation. I think I can relate to those pleas that keep creeping up: why wouldn't we go and serve those [people] who desire to hear the word of God? Also. I said that I desire to be obedient. That instruction is correct. We wouldn't go and serve them until these matters are taken care of. A portion from Apostle Paul's letter to the Romans speaks to this. He prayed on behalf of the Roman believers. He said: “Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.” [Rom. 1:10-12] I don't know if I could comfortably go to Minneapolis and have that type of assurance that I would have that unity and comfort together in mutual faith. It seems evident to me that … I do want to answer that plea in the letter that was sent out from Minneapolis that we would go to feed and serve them with the word of God. But when I heard afterwards what transpired for that letter to be written. It was not only a few members that left that congregation. Most of the board and up to half of the congregation and the servants of the word [left]. I feel that I share the same understanding of faith [with them]. I have a testimony [of them]. I wonder: what would cause them to leave that situation? They left the congregation where they had lived and felt secure there for many years, if not their entire life. Something is there that it's not right. Why would I put myself in that situation? It seems like it would be detrimental to my faith. I speak this because it is what I believe in my heart. I do not know if it is right. I have been encouraged that it is the right understanding. I still have my poorness in this matter. One brother spoke to this matter at a recent Southwest board meeting. He experiences it more personally than I do. He was raised in that congregation. And his family is there. He had the same testimony. When he was encouraged to go and attend services in Minneapolis, when he was visiting Minnesota, he felt that he could not go there for the sake of his faith And his family's faith. He went to Rockford, and he was fed there. He mentioned that there is a danger. I would say to those of you in Minneapolis. I think there was a plea in one of the opening statements from the congregations. There was a plea from Minneapolis to come and serve. They desire to assemble all the more together as they see the day approaching [Heb. 10]. I can confidently say that there has been encouragement in letters from other congregations to you in Minneapolis who are in that situation. If you want to hear the word of God, you can go to the other congregations In Minnesota. They are not far down the road. There is unity of the spirit in those congregations. Go there and be fed, And assemble together with those [people]. I feel personally – I speak here so I can be corrected, If I am wrong. I don't feel that I could go to Minneapolis and feel the unity of faith. Recently, I went to serve in Montana. I went with my own weakness. I spoke there at Easter services. I did experience the unity of faith and was comforted. It was not because I served, but because of the many visits that I had. It was a beautiful and uplifting weekend. I was able to freely go and serve In a congregation where there is no turmoil. There was that assurance of unity of faith and understanding. It was a blessing. I think there is a concern. We do want to go and feed. But we do also want to be obedient to what the spirit has revealed. Until these matters are resolved, it is not wrong to say that we will not send speakers to [Minneapolis]. It is evident by the action of some people flocking to Minneapolis and by others who are leaving that there are differences in spirit and understanding. I lost my train of thought. That is all that I have for now. [2:56:20]

Mark Skoog: It is about 25 minutes before 5. We are hoping to wrap things up around 5. I have eight people on the list, so I would encourage you to keep your speeches brief.

Ron Simonson, Monticello, Friday, May 7, 2021: I have been thinking of the speech that Bruce [Johnson] gave. He said that there were primarily three differences where they could not come to an agreement on. One of the topics was the robe of righteousness. Bruce made the statement that we cannot soil Christ’s robe. I believe it. There is no way that we can as faulty human beings soil Christ’s robe. There is a portion in Revelation 7:14: “Who are these that have come?... Where did they come from? The answer that we have here is: “They have come from the Great Tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.” I think the difference in interpretation is that – at least I believe in this way – the washing of the robes is the washing of the robes of conscience. We want to take care of our conscience through the gospel. When we fall into sin, we ask to have our sins forgiven in the name and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Even if it is by name that we need to take care of those sins, we use the gift of confession to put sins away. In that way, we wash our robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is the message that I have heard since I was a little child. We put sins away when they beset us. I think that the interpretation – maybe I am wrong on this – among those that do not believe that way is that their robes are always washed in the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. So, we don't need to take care of those sins that are bothering us in our life of faith. I think that is where the divide or the difference is. I must say that I am not a person who is deeply versed in the Scriptures or even in understanding. I have very little understanding. These are the things that I have believed since I was a child. I wanted to say that this is how I believe. If I am wrong in this understanding, I would like to be corrected. I would like to hear for my own heart and soul, can I believe my sins forgiven? [3:00:22]

Paul Huhta, Detroit, Friday, May 7, 2021 [3:00:30]: This is Paul Huhta from Detroit. Earlier, I heard a comment about what the two spirits are. I don't remember who raised it. Having lived physically a long way from here, I have not had a lot of person-to-person encounters regarding some of these issues with people that believe differently or have different understandings. I have to admit that I do not know what a lot of those specifics are. However, when I think of it in terms of how the Holy Spirit governs God’s Congregation, From that perspective, I feel that it is pretty evident that there are two spirits. When I hear of occasions where groups of people come in and take over a meeting, where there are clearly comments that are made in anger. Sometimes there is mocking. There is the recording of personal conversations or meetings. People are taking copious notes at meetings to dissect what people say. To me, these are clearly not fruits of the spirit. I think that if I was in the position where I felt compelled to record things [in order] to critically assess what people say, I should ask myself the question: Why am I doing this? Is this for the good of God's congregation? I feel that those who have undertaken some of these things or actions, I think it is a good question to ask yourself. Why am I doing this? Those are divisive actions. They are not actions of love, especially if there is some concern about a comment and it is not brought back to whoever made the comment. But they are [spread] through other media. I heard that there are WhatsApp group chats and GroupMe group chats. I have never seen them. But it is not unifying. As I have heard some of these things over the years, I wonder why this is happening? Why do we have to go to these terms or this level of critical assessment about what people say? In regards to what Rick [Nevala] was saying earlier, it greatly affects the freedom for people to speak. Hopefully, in spite of that, people would still feel free to speak what is on your heart and mind. That is all that I have. I'd like to ask to have my sins and faults forgiven. [3:05:15]

Paul Waaraniemi, Friday, May 7, 2021 [3:05:40]: One thing that has come to mind over these last years is how patient and long-suffering our heavenly Father is and how impatient I am in these matters. I'm wanting resolution and some kind of an end to the struggles and the battles. I feel like such a sinner here. Can I hear the gospel? I've had over these years in the discussions, [when listening to] speaking turns at meetings, heard allegations of works and that the believers are self-righteous. They are works-based. It is confession Christianity. And confession is a work. Of course, it is wrong if confession is used in that way. It is troubling to hear. The grace gift of confession has been so important in my life. I have been able to unburden myself. And I hear that being diminished or belittled in some way. I know people say that we are not belittling it. But that is the feeling and the end result of some of the comments. The allegations about works … I think of the emphasis when people are expending great scholarship and study and proving points. They are setting up ”Friends in Faith” social media. They are disseminating supportive articles, translations, writings, manifestos, talking points. They are documenting things. They are recording things. It not only speaks to a lack of trust, but it also feels like a great amount of work. I think it is an important thing to consider, when we are in these things. What are we gaining? Why are we doing this, as brother Paul Huhta said? Further to the scholarship thing. Reading the word. We have to acknowledge that faith comes by hearing, and coming to hear God's word at services. The preaching of the Gospel in our homes. That is also of great importance. We just have to question: Were the believing peasants of Luther’s time or the Lapps during the time of Laestadius able to read? Did they own their own Bibles? Was their salvation dependent on scholarship? Let us remember the example of a child – a little child. Faith comes by hearing. As I was listening, I was jotting down some historical perspectives on some of these heresies, some going back over 120 years. We don't want to set up any location or congregation as some sort of place of authority or a self-sufficient [place] – not the LLC nor Wolf Lake. It sounds like in some of the discussions that it is becoming sort of a ‘Gellivaara’ - the place in Sweden that the Old Apostolics, the First Born, consider as a place of great understanding and authority. I heard in the Wolf Lake report a [feeling of] self-sufficiency and sort of infallible authority sound. I was reminded last fall when we were visiting northern Minnesota, before going to Phoenix. I met a woman who formerly was a Wolf Lake member. She said that she was troubled in a meeting. She took a speaking turn that maybe went against the prevailing understanding. In her words, she was attacked After the meeting by three members. She was told: God has kept the Wolf Lake Congregation here to correct the LLC. These are the kinds of things that are concerning. We start setting something up in that way, whether a place of authority or a special place of enlightenment. When hearing the speeches today from all over Zion, it has really touched my heart. I could hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. There is not only one or two congregations where the understanding is correct or superior. In the ‘Pollari Heresy’ they abandoned the Gospel and the grace gift of confession, the preaching of the Gospel. I met one guy from that group. He said that we do not use those words anymore. If somebody goes to communion, we understand that they are a believer, etc. The ‘Kirkkokunta’ or the Federation holds widely varying views in Doctrine. There is no unity in any way. The Minister's Heresy in Finland, they held that forgiveness was found in communion. They also elevated the sacraments to a higher level than God's word, than what the Christians would understand. They also practice superior scholarship. They did not think that the understanding of the laity was adequate or based well enough in Scripture. I think that in the Torola Heresy, as the leader of the heresy made statements – If you can prove to me where I am wrong, then I will repent. I will take home what you have said and ponder it. I think it is important [to remember], since it has been mentioned here. When Luther stood on God's word and asked his examiners to prove to him with God's words where he was wrong, he was dealing with the corrupt institution of the Catholic Church. That prompts the question: Are there those who are opposed to the understanding that we hear in the congregation – the broader congregation that the LLC has represented – do they think that this is something like the Catholic Church? When we use that example of Luther [Here I stand!], we also have to look at his audience or who he was speaking to. I, too, like some have said – it was David Niemi – I would exhort those who have been battling to repent because it is not – ‘show me’ or ‘when I can see something then I will believe’. No. We repent and believe the gospel. Then believing is seeing. [3:15:20]

Brett Nikula, Rockford, Friday, May 7, 2021: Rod Junior. I have been introduced as Rod in Colorado. My name is Brett Nikula from Rockford, Minnesota. It is with smallness and trembling that I raised my hand. I first ask if I can hear the gospel? It is with love that I have for those that I know personally who I feel are walking on a different path. I speak to them now. As we approach Pentecost, my mind goes to the time when the disciples were gathered in the small house. They were trembling as they lost their friend, the Lord Jesus, who had been walking in their midst. They felt weak. [They didn't know] how to move forward. God saw it necessary that they would see in a visible form The Holy Spirit. With cloven tongues of fire, the Holy Spirit rested on the heads of each one of those in the house. It gave them courage to go out and speak. They spoke to many nations in their own tongue. The people that did not speak the[ language of the disciples], who had an unlearned background, the men were able to speak in their language. They were able to understand [each other]. Yet, there are some people who mocked. They said that these men [are drunk] with new wine. I think how the Holy Spirit works today, it's much how I felt here – especially in the presentation by Jim Frantti. I felt the spirit glow within me. At moments, my heart leapt – this is exactly how I long to believe. Yet, I hear from some [people] that there are offenses by the way things have been handled by certain boards, certain people and certain congregations. In some way, I feel the pain of that offense and rejection. If we look at Scripture again, it mentions that the love of a mother is so strong. In my work, I have worked with some [clients] who have felt rejected by their earthly mother. The pain feels so strong and is so deep. The Bible says that God will never forsake his own. I hope the people who are here [and think differently], will speak up about these matters, if you have felt this rejection by the mother – the pain of not being understood and not being heard. I have watched as they have rejected the mother and moved away [to another congregation]. When we reject the mother, it brings so much pain to us and it hurts so much – why would you move away? I think you need to look within and understand what you can do to move toward the mother. It is with that prayer for those who have felt the need to flee from the voice of the mother and to find comfort in other places, that you would hear the message that is so clear here. From all walks of North American Zion, it has been communicated and spoken to us, to our spirit. Even though we all have our own weak words and understanding, the spirit has been mutual. It has been left within us and warmed us. I thought that I would close with song 303, verse 3. “Still so tenderly, sinner, I’m pleading for you – my loving voice gently doth call you; as a shepherd I call you and beg you to come; I’ll carry you home if I find you. As a mother who weeps o’er the death of her child, I grieve o’er your soul in great anguish and pain. Reject not my calling, oh, sinner!” [3:22:05]

Tomm Stewart, Seattle, Friday, May 7, 2021: I am Tomm Stewart from Seattle. Many of you are familiar with the question that was asked by the jailer to Paul and Silas [Acts 16]. “What must I do to be saved?” It is the most important question that exists in the world. It is also a very important question for us. The answer was very simple then, as it is today, for one who is seeking or one who is endeavoring. “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved ” Our faith is very simple. Through God and the Holy Spirit that teaches us, the solutions are actually very simple. We can make it complex. And we have. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believes. With the power of the Gospel, all sin can be washed away. The gospel has always brought peace. And the gospel has restored love – peace of conscience to the penitent and sorrowful. It has restored love when it has been broken, because of our corrupt flesh. The root of any of these issues is sin. That's what lies at the door – sin. I enjoyed the presentation that Jim Frantti gave. We do not call it the Gospel according to Frantti. But he was given the gift to spell out very clearly the simplicity of living Christianity. It reminded me of a presentation that Erkki Reinikainen gave in Oulu in 1969 [Oulunsalon Suviseurat in 1982] about Sound Doctrine. It has not changed. It remains the same – yesterday, today and forever. Even though we are discussing serious matters, there is also a great matter of hope and consolation in our gathering. We are the children of God. Jesus said: “Fear not little flock; It is my father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” [Luke 12:32] In the Kingdom, the Holy Spirit teaches and guides. The Holy Spirit also corrects, when it is necessary. We all know it, because we have experienced it. We also realize that our journey is a battle of fiery trials, as Peter writes. [1 Peter 4:12] I could say that our battle is a journey of fiery trials, to make it more accurate. Jesus made the way to heaven very simple – by atoning all of our sin. His sermon was also very simple. “Follow me!” Luther said that we do not find God except in our brother. Jesus reminds us that he is with us always even unto the end of the world [Matt. 28:20]. Further, he gives us signposts. He said that I am the way, the truth and the life [John 14:6]. The Word is the same as yesterday, today and forever. Jesus said that I am the Word. Scripture says that the Word is given to us [John 17:8; 1 Peter 1:25]. So, we are traveling on the way that leads to heaven when we believe this Living Word through the Triune God. Also, God is so loving and patient. “The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and of great Mercy.” [Ps. 145:8] So, we are here by the grace of God, who are gathered today, yet travel on the way that leads to heaven, when we endeavor as a child of God and keep faith and a good conscience. People should speak here freely without any fear. Perfect love casts out all fear [1 John 4:18]. But we do fear sin. We battle sin. But Jesus Is with us always in grace, love and truth. The Scriptures do teach very clearly about Christian doctrine and about the way to heaven. “Be of one mind.”[Phil. 2:2] Have all things in common. [Acts 2:44] Paul also wrote, “if there be those who are otherwise minded, God will reveal it to them.” [Phil. 3:15] It does happen. There are times when there are those who are otherwise minded. How does God reveal his will upon Earth? Through the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that I will give you the comforter, which will teach you in all things. The two most important matters of our journey are endeavoring to keep faith and to hold this faith in a good conscience. Yes, we have met here [today] about very serious matters. An old speaker brother, who many of you remember, said that there is not a knot that is tied so tight that God cannot untie it. We can trust in this. We can be guilty of filthiness of flesh and filthiness of spirit. We are great sinners, but we are pardoned sinners. If we have fallen – whether it be into filthiness of flesh or filthiness of spirit – the cleansing power of the Gospel washes away all sin. It also restores Christian love and unity in the Holy Spirit. This is what we pray for. We have heard much [today] which is troubling. Yet, at the same time, there is still very good news. The good news is, as Paul said: I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God Unto salvation for everyone who believes. If there are those [people] here, as there certainly are, including me, who feel our own sinfulness. If there are those who feel that they have in one way or another battled. If there are those here who feel that they may have been harsh. If there are those here who feel that they may have spread rumors. There are those here who feel that they have used social media in a negative way. All of those sins – and if you believe them – they are forgiven in the name and precious blood of Jesus. That is the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, whether filthiness of flesh or filthiness of spirit – believe sins forgiven in the name and precious blood of Jesus. If there are those who feel that they have offenses that need to be taken care of with others, God will give guidance. I remember a young Marine who was going home – excuse me – he was leaving home and going back after leave. I thought that I should offer the kid communion. I thought, no, I don't want to do that. I was reading the sports page [in the newspaper]. Finally, I asked the kid, would you like to have communion? He said, yes I would. Could we go into a back room? I briefly went through the rites and served him communion. I assured them with the gospel. Then I went right back to the sports page [in the newspaper]. The kid came back to me a couple of minutes later. He said, could you come outside and talk with me? I said, sure I can. I had no idea what was on his mind. There were specific matters that were troubling his conscience that he wanted to put away. He had heard the gospel. He had received communion for the strengthening of his faith. The Gospel then gave him strength to put away those matters that troubled him by name or offended by name. We do not want to underestimate the power of the Gospel. It is offered to all who are here today. Jesus said that men shall know you as my friends when you have love one for another. The Gospel is our source of strength in every matter in this kingdom and on the way to heaven. Let us willingly share the gospel one with another. Preach it, hear it and believe it. When we do believe the gospel that is preached from God's Kingdom we have the promise that one day we will reach everlasting life. We can pray with the Psalmist, “uphold my footsteps on your pathway that they slip not.” [Ps. 17:5] I, too, want to hear the gospel. [3:33:08]

Ward Plough, Longview, Friday, May 7, 2021: I am Ward Plough from Longview. I have a lot of thoughts running through my mind. I will try to corral them in short order. I am generally not known to be short-winded. I had similar thoughts to Andy [Kesti]. I had a similar experience at summer services in 2004. There were some friends who were lamenting because they were “stuck” at summer services. It was boring. They were not enjoying themselves. I was thoroughly enjoying myself. I was feeling very uplifted. I could not understand or imagine how one would feel the way that they were feeling in the midst of summer services. It was only two short years later, when I found myself quite alone in the midst of summer services. I was feeling lonely and out of place until the evening youth discussion. One sister related about carrying a burden for several years. She encouraged all of us who were listening: If we were carrying a burden for any length of time, she encouraged us to put sin away. I had the opportunity there after, perhaps even in the midst of that discussion, to put sin away. Immediately, the beauty of God's kingdom was so evident. I agree, as Tomm [Stewart] mentioned, it is quite simple. Sin is what is dividing [us]. Sin is what separates us from God. We have to first start by putting sin away. I can hear weariness in some of the comments, those of you who are living here in the Midwest, where the battles have been more intense or more fierce than we have experienced. We have certainly had discussions in Longview recently. The thing that has comforted me and has come to my mind time and time and time again – we have to trust in God. I have had personal conversations with some [people] in the Minneapolis congregation. One of the things that was mentioned to me. It feels like we are shunned. We don't have any place to turn to except to God's word. It is a sure Foundation. I agree that it is a sure Foundation. When hearing the comments today, the thought crossed my mind. I was reflecting on that conversation. We can turn to God's word. But God's word also says that he hears even our groans and our sighs. There is a song that says something to this effect. He hears our groans and sighs that our lips cannot even express. So, If God is capable of hearing and knowing our heart, despite our inability to express ourselves, let’s trust that He will care for us. It is not any work that any one of us will do. It is not of our own strength. It will be God who compels us when he sees fit. He will give us the strength to take the footsteps to go where we need to go, to say the words that we need to say. He will stir the hearts of the listener and open the heart so they can hear and understand, and they can repent and put sin away. Some of these meetings are difficult. Today's meeting for me has been wonderful. It was encouraging to see that in the presentation this morning. I was comforted that it rings true to me. Also, when I see all of these brothers and sisters here. It is a warm feeling that comes to me. When I see all of these brothers and sisters in faith, I cannot help but be uplifted. I cannot help but feel encouraged and comforted that I am on the right path. No one is more sinful or faulty [than I]. But yet, my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, when I can believe. I do not need anything else. I do not need a reputation. I do not need anything here on earth, except for my name to be in the book of life. Nothing else matters. There was a comment made earlier. Someone heard that it was a negative thing to hold the gospel too close [to oneself]. Or hold your faith too close. I cannot agree with that. I have believed all of my life that my faith is the most important thing in my life. In the past number of years, I certainly have had to ask myself the question. Growing up, I heard often at camps and services, what a blessing it is to have a time of peace. Now, I certainly understand that it was true. I understand more about what that meant. Simply trust in the power of God. Believe sins forgiven. Continue to journey. Continue to first believe for yourself. Then carry brothers and sisters in faith, encouraging and uplifting with the gospel. That is how we will make it to heaven. There is no other way. It will not be by anything that we do of ourselves. I would also like to hear the gospel for myself. Can I believe it? [3:40:37]

Lars Anderson, Rockford, second speech on Friday, May 7, 2021: I know that we are past our 5 o’clock deadline. But I wanted to ask a direct question to those [people] who have left the Rockford congregation – If they are here. Why did you leave to go to Minneapolis? Did you feel comfortable coming back to Minneapolis? It is a very important question, I think. I have heard very direct accusations [in meetings] from those people who have left [Rockford] that the ministers speak the law. Caretaking has been done wrong. As an open book, I would like to visit with those [people about] how we have erred, so matters can be resolved. If I would flip the question and ask – do I feel comfortable going to Minneapolis? At this point, in my heart I can only say, no. Why? The only reason why I do not feel comfortable [going to Minneapolis] is because there are those members who have left [Rockford] that have been very critical of caretaking and how it has been done. They have left and have not wanted to take care of those matters. I would feel very uncomfortable to be in that situation where those accusations would rise. We heard a comment stated [by Blair Kariniemi]: You can see it in the looks. I would agree. There are people who have been offended that have not taken care of matters. There are believers who left the Minneapolis congregation. If the speakers would return to serve them, along with the board members and the other members who left, would there still be peace in the Minneapolis congregation? We have heard that there is peace now in the Minneapolis congregation. But if the members who departed would return to Minneapolis, would there then be peace? There have been some very strong accusations and criticisms that have not been cared for under the blood of Christ. Until those matters can be cared for one to another, [true] peace cannot be restored. I would encourage those people who are gathered here from the Minneapolis congregation that have left Rockford or one of the other surrounding congregations to speak up. Voice your psalm. Where has the local Rockford congregation gone wrong? What better place is there than in God's Kingdom to care for matters, especially in this meeting. It is a good place to be. Right now the rumors move around the country very quickly. Some of them are false. Some of the rumors might have a bit of truth to them. We know that we are faulty caretakers. But we desire to remain in God's Kingdom. So, there is no better place to care for matters than here. When matters can be heard broadly that they are taken care of, the rumor mill can stop. The comments and the back talk, and all such things that are happening, which is so destructive to the work of the kingdom, can halt. Love can be restored. It is a process that takes time, but it starts with a humble heart. We know if Jesus would be here physically and we could see him, every one of us would bow down before Jesus and ask: Am I saved? How can I be saved? Am I in your kingdom? Jesus is not here physically, but the Holy Spirit is [present]. This is where matters can be cared for. [3:45:55]

Patrick Kariniemi, Minneapolis on May 7, 2021: I am Patrick Kariniemi from Minneapolis. Before I begin, I would like to hear if I can have my sins forgiven? We had several meetings in the weeks leading up and prior to this weekend. I asked the question: what should we be doing? We were given the encouragement to come here and listen. So, that is what I have done. First, I chose to speak because the presentation that Jim [Frantti] gave this morning was very uplifting to me. I felt that it perfectly reflects my faith. I don't have anything that I would have added to it or taken away from it. I also feel it is what we tried to teach our children in Sunday School in Minneapolis. It is not our desire to battle. It is not our desire to be carried as believers in unity but to have a different teaching. We want the same teaching from Jesus Christ that has been the same since his time on the cross. When we have met as a board, our hope for this meeting is that we would get help – that we would get help from this group, from the golden candlestick. I have been living in Minneapolis since 2017, [but] I still can't say that I know what the problem is. I think I have an idea what the solution is. I think Blair [Kariniemi] touched on it. And Rick [Nevala] touched on it. It would be to restore the love with the forgiveness of sins. So, my parting comment would be as Rod Jr [Brett Nikula?] said that we feel the sting. It didn't feel like we were rejected when we made our plea or request to be served. It seems obvious to me – but evidently it is not – that we request speakers, because we desire to hear what they would say. It's not that we would desire to disagree with what they would say. We would want [to hear] that word – the gospel. We want [to hear] it in our congregation. I'm not saying that there are no troubles – it is obvious to all of us. I did have the question in my mind when [David Niemi from] Toronto he said that throughout his entire childhood they battled in Toronto. Weren’t speakers still sent there? I wonder [about that]. God has allowed this to happen. That much is clear. I do not understand why. And I do not need to understand why. My prayer is that we could have the love restored and that our congregation would be carried in love with the rest of the believers in North America. [3:52:00]

Mark Skoog: Time to wrap it up.

Steve Haataja [5:30 pm]: can I believe? People ask for blessings. Closing prayer.

Opening prayer: Dan Parks: Opening prayer … [10:10] I will now take a few moments during this devotion – [actually] a devotion is not scheduled. I had many thoughts that went through my mind yesterday, as we visited about many matters. Brother Jim Frantti gave a presentation, which was very thorough and direct. I have a few thoughts about it that have come to mind. As we gathered together, some thoughts have been on my mind for some time. Yesterday, Ron [Simonson] spoke about that portion of God's word that talked about the words of Jesus that were recorded in Matthew. Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” [Matt. 10:34-40] I have often thought, especially remembering the time of the last heresy, how many families were divided. As I was thinking, [they] had to decide between family and faith. Those matters are still evident. Even now, there are families that are at odds among themselves. It is a sign of unrest and division. God’s word speaks to us that there would be no divisions. Unfortunately, the enemy of souls has made inroads. We sorrow over those [matters]. It is recorded for us [in Scripture] that those things happen. We pray to God that it would not advance to that point. It is often a much more difficult road to return to a peaceful situation. If you bear with me, there were a couple of other thoughts that I have had. Yesterday I referred to Corinthians where it talks about building upon a foundation. The Holy Spirit is like a fire that tries our works. It reveals what they are. In the beginning of the chapter [1 Cor. 3], there is good instruction for us. It speaks about workers in God's Kingdom, particularly those in the office of preaching. The Apostle Paul instructed the Corinthians about following man versus following God and Christ. Paul wrote: “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.” [1 Cor. 3:1-8] It is important that we observe the signs that we [should] not follow a man. It has always been a red flag, so to speak, in God's kingdom when someone begins to gather a following. It was very evident in the last heresy. Many people would say, especially up in the Copper Country area. When someone that had questions about matters of faith, people would say: go and see Walter [Torola]. He was put on such a high pedestal that it was impossible for him to step down from that place of high-elevation. We are all level headed. Each one of us carries our own burdens. Each one of us must confess our own faith. It is very personal. Each one of us must stand before our own deeds. We cannot depend on our own family to shield us. We stand on our own. We pray that God can take care of us. In speaking yet about the workers, especially about the speakers In God's Kingdom. They have special instructions and responsibilities. An old speaker brother who has gone to rest often spoke on the Book of Ezekiel. He spoke about the watchmen. Jim [Frantti] mentioned yesterday in his presentation about the watchmen on the walls of Zion. Some people have said that they have been elevated by putting them up on the walls. But that is not what God's word teaches us. It says in the 33rd chapter of Ezekiel – I will read a few words there. The responsibilities of a watchman. “Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.” [Ezek. 33:1-6] They are very sober instructions for those who have been set on the walls as watchmen. It is a duty that is not to be taken lightly. Here at this gathering the watchmen are sounding the trumpet. The trumpet has sounded. And I think it has been a clear sound. The listeners are encouraged to take heed to the sound of the trumpet. Also, I was thinking about [what it says] later in this chapter. It speaks about taking heed. I have heard a comment made [about] how Wolf Lake has come through many storms. And that they will certainly come through this storm. They are looking back on God's protection. They are making some assumptions perhaps that God will still take care of them. But Ezekiel speaks later on in this chapter, “if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered.” [Ezek. 33:13] God does not remember those past days when they were believing preciously. The past is wiped away. At the same time, Ezekiel says, “But if the wicked turn from his wickedness” and follows righteousness, his former iniquity is remembered no more. [Ezek. 33:19] We are daily in a battle. As the children on the Wilderness Journey, they needed daily manna. They needed to be fed each day with morsels of grace, which come from the hand of God. Let us rejoice and be glad. Let us be watchful. We can rejoice in the Lamb of God. God is a very patient God. I was thinking of the parable that Jesus spoke about tending the garden. The owner of the vineyard came to seek for fruit on the tree, but there was no fruit. He said that for three years I have come to look for fruit but I have not found it. He was ready to cut the tree down. The husbandman said, ``Give me one more year. I will dung it and loosen up the soil. I will take care of it. Next year when you come and you do not find fruit, then you can cut it down.” [Luke 13:6-9] There is a dual meeting there, I think. God is patient and long-suffering. But one day, if one does not heed the instruction and continues to be disobedient, God can take away his Holy Spirit and blessing. I also this morning would like to hear the gospel. [23:45]

Loren Hillukka is the moderator. [24:23] Good morning. There are a few housekeeping items before we continue our discussion. I probably will not know all of your names. If you raise your hand, make sure that I nod. Please state your name and congregation when you take a speaking turn. We do have until noon, when it is time scheduled for lunch. Before I get to the two names that are on the list, I thought that I would share a prayer that one congregation member from Elk River sent with us that came here. It is in the form of a poem. “May the seeds of forgiveness sprout among the burnt grasses, spreading emerald pastures to feed Lambs of the Good Shepherd. May the Embers of battle dim into nothingness, unremembered.” As I took a turn yesterday to make comments, I will go right into the list. There were two turns that were left from yesterday, Allen Pirness from Lethbridge [Canada]. Does he still want to speak? Go ahead, Allen.

Allen Pirness, Lethbridge, Canada on May 8, 2021: Good morning and God's peace! It would have been nice to be there in the gathering. But we have also been able to gather together as a group. It has felt very secure to be with brothers on the board in these kinds of meetings. They are not easy and they are not light. Yesterday my thoughts were … I had put my name on the list after I listened to Olli Vanska’s admonition from his place of watching [in Toronto]. My thoughts [gelled] when Walt [Lampi] spoke about how the battle seems to be against the voice of the Holy Spirit. Those who are battling should look at their own wrong [false] watchings. And then they would hopefully be able to comprehend that their fight has been against God. and it has not been against man or personalities or anything of that sort. Yesterday when the brother from Wolf Lake spoke [Bruce Johnson] about the care that had come, it was not the care that they were looking for. That was the interpretation that I gathered from[ the speech]. It was such a stark contrast from the comments [Bruce made] at the annual meeting In Seattle two years ago. Our delegate brought back a report that there was a plea for help in Wolf Lake. [This report] came from the delegate. Help was sent but it was rejected. We hear it in the speech. We also heard from the brother [Patrick Kariniemi] in Minneapolis who compared the difficulties and the voice of the Holy Spirit that has been heard there. It was compared to what had happened in Toronto for many years. In our congregation [of Lethbride] we have former members from [Toronto]. The quick response was these are apples and oranges that we are trying to compare. This is how sly the enemy of souls is. He knows us so well. He knows how to work with us. When it works against our own sensibilities and sensitivities, he is quick to pounce on those and cause us to reject the voice of the Holy Spirit. I am very fearful for the hearts and the hardness of the heart that we have heard in these speeches. There has been a rejection of the voice of the Holy Spirit. It seems that it is easy for me and from my place of watching to see that the unsolicited offer that came to the Minneapolis congregation to buy the property was sent from God. It would have been an escape from the troubles that they had endured over the years that they are no longer able to get through. If there are still those people who wonder if that was truly the voice of the Holy Spirit that spoke and gave that offer and it came as a way to move forward, I would urge you to resign from the board quickly. Do not ever go back. These are serious matters. God gave a way forward in that situation. It was unfathomable to some people [in Minneapolis] to even consider that it was the way forward. The enemy of souls is so sly that he can take the very offer from the heavenly Father and twist it around into something that is unthinkable for us in our minds to accept. But this is the nature of God's Kingdom. We don't come and have the red carpet rolled out. There isn't a marching band that leads the voice of the spirit to make it obvious in those ways. I thought of it this morning when I was making coffee. My two oldest children heard that I was awake. They came to visit with me. They wanted to sit in my lap for a while before I had to leave. They wanted to hear some singing on my phone. They requested that I play the song “Hosanna”. They sang while we sat in the chair. They have sung that song so many times. It is a song of praise. It even resounds throughout the year. I thought of it as a picture of God's Kingdom. With the children's squeaky morning voices and their morning breath, we had a small song service in the chair. This is the way that God's Kingdom approaches. It does not come with high expectations. But it comes as a small still voice. When this voice is rejected, there is a time when it can no longer be heard. There is a portion of God's word that has been resounding in my mind for many months. I kept thinking about it after I came across it. In my reading plan for the Bible, it covered that portion. In the 19th Chapter of Genesis, Lot was in Sodom and Gomorrah. He was to be led out of that situation. When the angels came to Lot's house, they spent the night with his family. The angels explained why they were there. Word was sent to Lot's sons-in-law. They rejected this call. They did not think that things were that bad that they needed to leave. In the morning when they woke up and it became light, the angel said, “It is time to go.” Is so striking to me. Lot lingered there for a moment. They grabbed him by the hand. They took his wife and daughters by the hand. They were led away from there. There wasn't a moment to lose in that situation. The voice of God had already been heard. The things were set in motion. It was going to happen. They had to allow themselves to be led away, even though they were not quite ready to leave. There were some things that they needed to close up. They needed to gather more things for their journey. They would need to say some good-byes. But the angel took them by the hand and said, now is the time to go. I thought of this picture [when thinking of the meeting in Minneapolis on September 27, 2020]. I wasn't at the meeting on September 27th [in Minneapolis]. It seems like a similar picture there. So many people had to leave. They had to leave at that moment. A few weeks later the letter came from Minneapoli]. It completely minimized the severity of that situation. It was so horrible to read. It read like it was completely spiritually deaf. There was nothing [in that letter] that answered [to the spirit]. The words and the sentiments seemed to be from the memory of former times. I get that real recognition that something really drastic had happened in their midst, it was missing from [the letter]. That is where we come to this that we are powerless. My words are so weak. The efforts that have been made to try and open the eyes have been of the spirit, but they have fallen on deaf ears. They have continued to invite and pester ministers to come and serve. It is contrary to the voice of the Holy spirit. Ministers have listened to this pestering, and they have gone. They have made a mess of the situation. They have made a further mess. It's not a light matter to reject the voice of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit speaks to us in rebuke, it is such a serious matter that we should listen to it. I implore you, if you hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in this discussion and you are in that situation, you don't need to go back to explain. Just leave for your own heart and soul and your own eternal condition. You need to get away from that situation. I feel mixed in my comments. My own portion is so sinful. I want to ask, can I believe my own sins and doubts forgiven? That Is all that I have to say. [38:27]

Eric Jurmu, Rockford, LLC Executive Secretary on May 8, 2021: I don't want to offend you by coming here to this place [to speak from the front at the podium]. God knows, dear brothers and sisters, how weak my service has been to you, my brothers and sisters. I ask, can I believe my many sins and God's forgiven? I was left very sad from yesterday. When I got home my wife asked, “How did things go?” I said that let's wait for my brothers to come. They can explain it. I feel in my heart that there is a spirit of heresy among us. I hesitate to even say that because I see my name and my position on many blogs. I see my name on a Blog of former believers, who have recorded me as the executive secretary of the LLC and some months ago declaring heresy. It certainly was not my intent. Too often when I speak, I speak of my own psalm. I told [my wife] Maggie this morning – I have no choice but to speak what my conscience speaks. But I feel very strongly that there is this spirit of heresy. I think back to the conversations and discussions that we have had. I read this morning that an individual said – “I am ready to go to battle.” [He said that] I am sending this document that clearly articulates the many faults and errors that have been handled by the LLC board and ministers, and so on. He itemized a list. It covered [things] from 180 degree difference from what brother Jim [Frantti] spoke yesterday. My spirit answered what Jim [Frantti] presented. This is where I want to be. This is where I want to believe. When Paul is saying his farewell sermon to the elders in Ephesus, he told them. He had been among them for 3 years preaching, admonishing and teaching. When Paul leaves, he is fearful that wolves will enter in [Acts 20]. The Apostle Paul writes in his epistle to the Corinthians that damnable heresies will be among us [2 Cor. 11:1-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3]. I believe, dear brothers and sisters, that we are facing that kind of situation. The word and the voice of the Good Shepherd has not been recognized and heard by some. I thought about when Jesus spoke to his disciples. The disciples came to him and asked, “why are you speaking to them in parables?” [Matt. 13:10] Yesterday, I reflected on the many speaking turns. I also reflected back on the five or six years that we have had meetings. God has used many, many gifts to try and reveal this matter to those who are wavering and straying. There have been smaller and bigger meetings. [God] has used board members and speakers. He has used delegates. And he has used grandmas and grandpas [mummus and pappas] on the bench. We have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd. So, why now [speak in parables]? Jesus answered the disciples [why he speaks in parables]: “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” [Matt. 13:11-15] Then Jesus, I think, speaks to his children. And he speaks to us today. “But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” [Matt. 13:16-17] Brothers and sisters, it feels like we are here – “seeing see not; and hearing they hear not.” Except that God would open the hearts, it is impossible. That is why I fear that we are facing this very difficult time in our North American Christianity – the spirit of heresy among us. Brothers and sisters, I hesitate to speak my heart because I worry that I would easily damage the work of God’s Kingdom. But I know and trust that you believing brothers and sisters [will] carry me with love and forgiveness. I recognize that there is this other [group] that will not carry [me] in the same way. It pains and hurts to recognize that it feels like – unless repentance is made …. I join with Allen’s [Pirness] encouragement. I speak to you Patrick [Kariniemi]. I don't know if Patrick is here. But I heard in the voice of Patrick yesterday that there was a troubled believing man. I would encourage you to flee [from that congregation of Minneapolis]. Because you spoke about “we” and “us”. You don't know – and I don't know either – how anyone else believes. The spirit testifies. The spirit joins us together. The fruits of faith are evident of those who believe the same. We don't truly understand or know the heart of anyone else. We cannot judge those things. So, it is important as Paul ended his Epistle to the Romans. Bear with me for just a few moments yet. As he ended his speech and his farewell service to those [recipients]. They were fellow travelers in Rome. [He wrote in Romans 16]. “Salute one another with a holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.“ [16:16-17] It is for this reason. “For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” [16:18] As God's children, we are like little lambs. We are weak ones, who are poor and simple. We can't battle. We don't have the wisdom to stand alone in this battle. May God protect each of us. But this is my fear. I want you, dear brothers and sisters, to care for me. I speak these words timidly. I again ask, can I still believe my many sins and doubts forgiven? [51:50]

Sam Roiko, Elk River, Saturday morning on May 8, 2021: I joined in with the comments [we heard] this morning. I'm happy that Tuula [Mattila] is taking a speaking turn. I hope that others from Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, and others who have serious questions, would also take speaking turns, as was the encouragement yesterday. I had a couple of thoughts when I was reading the notes that I took yesterday. I would like to bring [these] out for discussion. First, there were a number of direct questions asked of those [people] in Wolf Lake and in Minneapolis by brothers Carrie [Simonson], Lars [Anderson] and others. For example, there was a question that Carrie [Simonson] posed. It would be nice to hear comments and responses. There was the comment from Wolf Lake that they believe differently in some matters than the LLC brothers. We saw in Jim's [Frantti] presentation: We believe that the kingdom of God is one; it is united without sect or schism or division. But then, where are we? Lars [Anderson] had a question speaking to the fruits of those [people], who have left [from] other southern Minnesota congregations and have joined Minneapolis. There are others who left [from] Minneapolis last fall and have joined other southern Minnesota congregations. It has founded this kind of a division. I was reminded yesterday during a visit in the entryway: It is good to put the best construction on everything that anyone does. I agree with that. I want to … my heart wants to follow that teaching of Luther. I know that Luther teaches correctly. But nevertheless, we must speak of the fruits that have been evident. When a person would leave … for example, we heard there are those that left Rockford and Cokato – all of the Southern Minnesota congregations: Rockford, Cokato, Monticello and Elk River. Those people have made comments publicly and privately that they do not feel the love and the unity in these other southern Minnesota congregations. They have then joined Minneapolis. Then there is this thought in that home congregation that they want to be in unity with the rest of the congregations in North America. I can't logically square those two comments together. If there was the desire to be in unity, wouldn’t those [people] who left from Monticello, or Rockford or Elk River, for example, want to come back to those congregations and take care of those statements that they have made publicly? It goes to this question. I think we heard it yesterday in Olli’s [Vanska] and Walt’s [Lampi] comment, and others. The question has been raised: What is the doctrine of difference? We heard that everyone said that they believe exactly as Jim Frantti presented in the presentation. My heart said amen to the presentation, as well. It is one thing to say: that is how I believe and teach. But what happens in practice? What are the fruits? Do my fruits indicate that is how I believe? Here I think – as we heard yesterday – the crux of the matter is the doctrine of the congregation. The segregating or [the] flocking to Minneapolis and leaving from Minneapolis speaks to that. If we all believed [in] the same [way] on the doctrine of the congregation, there would not be division. They wouldn't be this kind of different unities. The actions that have taken place In Minneapolis, as we heard through our brother Allen [Pirness]. [Minneapolis is] calling speakers to serve there. They are not accepting the discussion that was held in southern Minnesota [on October 6, 2020] that it was the voice of the Holy Spirit [not to go serve in Minneapolis]. But they disagree with that [exhortation]. But their wisdom is above the wisdom of the rest of the believers. You can say in the theoretical sense that the congregation of God is unerring in the global sense. But there is an example of Jesus [Matt. 12:46-50], which was in the presentation by Jim [Frantti]. Jesus taught, who is his mother and who are his brethren. He was not pointing to the congregation of God in the global sense. All of those believers where the event took place – was it in Galilee? – he [didn’t] refer that all of the believers together In Galilee and Nazareth and Jerusalem and everywhere else are my mother. But he pointed to his brothers and sisters that were right around him. He said, “behold my mother and my brethren.” If we understood the doctrine of the congregation in the same way then there would be humility to the voice of the spirit. There would be humbleness to want to hear. God would open the ears and understanding to make repentance. We learn in confirmation school that there are three parts to repentance. The first part is remorse and distress over sin. If there is no remorse or distress over things that have happened and the words that have been said and the positions that have been taken, then there is no place to go. I pray that God would open hearts to find where I have erred and where my fault has been. I have battled against the mother. I have battled against Rebecca's voice. I have been disobedient. I have held my own understanding as being better and to be more than the understanding of the other believers. Then repent and take care of matters. The whole flock of God would rejoice. I guess I will leave my comments at that. It is my prayer. That God could open my ears to hear. I know my own faults and weaknesses. I need to ask, can I believe my own faults and sins forgiven? [1:01:36]

Tuula Mattila, Minneapolis on May 8, 2021: I am Tuula Mattila from Minneapolis. I will not try to give any answers or a solution for this situation. I heard yesterday that there was a great demand for our view on things. Many times I thought that I should speak up, but my mind was blank. I didn't have anything to say. I will try to share what I heard yesterday. We got the advice that we should go and listen to what is said. I will try to share what I heard yesterday. It was very clear that there are two groups, two sides. On the one side are believers who are very poor, weak, simple in their words and in their faith, but they do the right things and they are good believers. Then there is this other group, which is very knowledgeable. They know the Bible and they know how to quote the Bible. They always find some articles where they find support for their thoughts. They have even read history books. They can point to occasions in history that are similar to this day. Whatever they say or do, they are wrong. They are bad believers. They are such bad believers that they are not worthy to be served by God’s Word. The division between these groups is getting wider and it is pretty wide already. What is sad, I don’t personally find myself in either of these groups. I am somewhere in the middle. I am in that confused group that is trying to find and hear what the Holy Spirit is saying in his kingdom. It is a weird place to be in today's atmosphere where you are either right or wrong, and there is no in-between. This conflict has been going on for years, we all know. God has given us this opportunity today to speak and to try to discuss these matters. This picture that I got in my mind yesterday is very clear today that there are these two groups. The one side has not been doing anything wrong. The other side has done everything wrong. There is something wrong in this picture. If there are conflicts and turmoil in God's Kingdom, like there is today, both sides have been doing wrong. We cannot get anywhere if both sides do not take their own [away] and do not have the desire to try to resolve this problem. There is only one way to get out of this situation. It is not by trying to find faults in each other. Every one of us needs to go and examine where I am. How do I believe? We heard in today's opening statement [devotion by Dan Parks] that faith is personal. And none of us are above the others. We need to bring us to that place where we first look at ourselves, and then we try to find common ground. Jim Frantti’s presentation yesterday was a very good starting point. My heart said amen. That is how I believe. Then there was this weird picture of the Minneapolis believers. I didn't even recognize it. If we could go back to those slides one by one to see how we believe. If we agree on those points. And if we agree on what was presented, then we can start this open discussion. Now it is not going anywhere if we are just finding faults in others. We cannot care for other’s faults. Every one of us needs to care for our own matters. Congregations cannot repent. Faith is personal. Everyone has to make their own repentance. The way this situation has been handled, it is not the way that God instructs. We think of the decisions that have been made to take down ministers without telling the congregation what was wrong. There has been instruction in God's Kingdom that there are two reasons why a speaker should rest. The reasons are living in open sin in their public life. We know that none of those speakers who have been put to rest had been living in sin. Then there is another reason, which is a little more tricky. It is that a speaker would be preaching incorrect doctrine; teaching incorrectly. I have been in a couple of those discussions where the speakers have been taken down. The conclusion was that there was no doctrinal error in those speaker’s speeches. And we all know that they have not been living in open sin. So, why are they resting? This is one thing that we need to discuss. Are those decisions, even though they were made by the congregation, a place where the congregation haa erred? We need to address these things so we can get somewhere. Then there is this decision to not send ministers to Wolf Lake or Minneapolis. Loren [Hillukka] said yesterday that it is a rebuke for Minneapolis. For this reason we are not sending ministers. In my understanding, rebuke comes through God's word. If you want to rebuke in the right way, it would be to come and serve Minneapolis and you could rebuke with God's word. And let God do the work. I don't know if this is totally wrong, but those are my thoughts. And there has been a lot of talk about the fruits of a wrong spirit. I will read from Galatians 5 verses 22 through 23. “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” So, I hope that this discussion from now on can go to this mindset: Are my words bringing love, joy, kindness, gentleness, faith? Are they bringing us together? Or are they dividing us? Am I finding myself to be faulty? Or am I finding the other ones faulty? That is all [I have to say]. I am poor and weak. I ask, can I have my sins and doubts forgiven? [1:12:59]

Loren Hillukka: You mentioned one of my comments. I trust that other speaking turns will address that. We will proceed with David Niemi from Toronto.

David Niemi, Toronto, Saturday morning on May 8, 2021: God’s Peace. Can you hear me? I spoke yesterday. But I thought that I would address the question by Patrick [Kariniemi] about Toronto. Did we receive visiting ministers during the times of spiritual battle? Before I even answer that question, I want to mention a couple of differences between that situation and the situation in Minneapolis – and even in Wolf Lake. Both of the comments by [Minneapolis and Wolf Lake] – they stated that in their congregations that they had peace. When we had the spiritual battles in Toronto, there was no peace. There were battles, unrest, worries, but no peace at all. We actually did not receive visiting ministers. I honestly do not remember any time during my youth that we would have had bigger services with a visiting minister. But we received [caretakers] through the love of the LLC. They came to Toronto with their own weaknesses. I'm sure that they had their own doubts. But they came with love for the undying soul. It comes to mind [about] all those brothers who left Minneapolis. I don't believe that Keith [Waaraniemi] came to Toronto on a speaking tour until about 2008. I don't believe that Russ [Roiko] came to Toronto until Sam [Roiko] lived in Buffalo, New York. So, we did not receive visiting ministers. But we received care. The care bore fruits. I marvel when I look at Toronto, as I related yesterday. God has blessed [Toronto]. When I think back to those years – I will even relate this. [family details omitted] There were also other members of the congregation who were bound. They needed care. I cannot help but even think in this situation how this doctrine of confusion, wrong spirits, the spirit of heresy is spreading throughout [North American] Zion. It is not only in one congregation, as it was in Toronto [some years ago]. But it is in all of Zion in North America. I feel that God has brought us to that point where care must be [given]. The keys of binding must be used even in these situations. And we talked of love and fruits, as was mentioned in the previous speaking turn. We can read from Galatians about the fruits of faith. I will read a little portion from Ephesians chapter 4. Paul writes to the Ephesians. I will read verses 2 to 6. He mentions the same fruits. “With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” One of the fruits is that we would forbear one another in the unity Spirit. It has been recognized by everybody – there is no Unity. It is not evident in the speeches. The love of Christ is not the love of the world, but it is love for the undying soul. Rebuke sometimes can hurt. That is even what Jesus used sometimes. The other thought that comes to my mind. A person can speak, as Patrick [Kariniemi] did yesterday. You said that you said amen to Jim's [Frantti] presentation. I think the fruits that we have seen in the past years show [something] different. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit has guided at the minister’s camps, meetings – even this meeting? Yesterday, many of us felt the unity. We said amen to most of the speeches. Do you believe in the care of the mother, who has tried to care for you? Do you believe that God's kingdom is unerring? We know that SRK, LLC and the SFC are in unity. They teach in the same way that we have been taught all of our life. There is no new doctrine. There's nothing new. It is the same simple message of the gospel. It also comes to mind when I think of the situation in Minneapolis. When the believers departed, I think of an example in our own homes. Mother and father are in the house. If the children would depart, would we not run after them? Especially the mother, would she not run and do everything in her power to bring the children back. We didn't see this when the believers left. Also, in closing, my thoughts have been this. I mentioned it also at the minister's camp. I believe that we have come to the point as Isaiah wrote in his fourth chapter in verse one. “And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.” We [may] want the name of a Laestadian, but we do not want to follow the same path. We want to make the path a little bit wider and a little easier. But there is only one way. It is through believing the gospel and putting sin away. It is not through understanding and knowledge. It is just the simple message of the Gospel. May God awaken your heart and open your ears to hear that care which is offered for you even today. Even myself, I have come with my own trembling and weakness. I would ask, can I yet hear that gospel? [1:22:00]

Don Lahti, Brainerd on Saturday morning on May 8, 2021: This is Don Lahti from Brainerd, Minnesota. I take this speaking turn with much trembling, as I find myself to be so troubled during these last times and knowing the weakness of my own flesh. Perhaps it is not the right thing to say. As you get older, it seems like it gets harder to believe, because the devil attacks you in so many ways. I need to hear the gospel even at this time. [gospel preached]. I enjoyed hearing most of the speeches yesterday, as many have already mentioned. I say Amen to all of the speeches this morning. And I have to say to Tuula [Mattila]. Your speech troubled me. It did not answer the spirit. We have already heard at these discussions. Eric [Jurmu] mentioned it this morning. Jesus spoke in parables because the listeners had ears but they did not hear. They had eyes but they did not see. Why is it so here today? It is because – as we heard yesterday very clearly – there are two spirits here. One is the right spirit. One is a false spirit. When one has lost the Holy Spirit, [they] no longer see or hear. As we heard [a question] from somebody yesterday – I can't remember [who it was] – what are the issues? I think the timeline that we heard yesterday morning was very clear. The discussions and meetings go back six years. The problems go back further than that. I can speak from experience. The meetings in these last six years have explained these things over and over and over again. [family details omitted] I did not get to many of the minister’s meetings or the board meetings. [Later] I wanted to hear first-hand some of these things that were happening. I went to Rockford and heard the discussion there. With my poor hearing, I could not always detect who the speaker was. But after I heard what they said, I knew who they were. I did not know them personally but I knew where they came from. I knew what their spirit was. I also went to Minneapolis. I was at the last two meetings where John Lehtola was put to rest [from speaking]. I remember particularly one meeting where Keith Waaraniemi was asked the same question numerous times. Finally, his wife Kathy [Waaraniemi] told him: “If they ask you again, tell them that you have answered the question many times.” They have ears to hear and eyes to see, but they do not see or hear. I will give a little example of how one's memories are lost when they lose the Holy Spirit. As most of you know, I spent all of my working years in the Detroit, Michigan area. The Detroit congregation was a very lenient congregation. I moved to Detroit from Upper Michigan in 1946. I was 16 years old. I finished high school in Detroit. I was not there very long as a 16 year old – when a person is young they do not comprehend very much about faith matters. But I could detect that there was a problem already in Detroit. I thought it was because of differences in personality or between families. But as it turned out, it was a lenient spirit working already then [in Detroit]. However, back in the 1950s and more in the 1960s my wife and I went to visit some elders in the congregation. They were individuals who had served on the board in previous years. They said that already in the 1930s and 1940s, there was leniency. And they gave us many examples of what they experienced. There was a certain individual [a friend] who was a little older than I was. We had the same understanding of spirit. We discussed all of the concerns in Detroit many, many times. We were of one mind and of one spirit. One year Lauri Hakso came to Detroit for Christmas services. This certain individual [a friend] was so troubled about the pastor [Ray Tulkki] that they went and met with [Ray]. They got absolutely nowhere because he was on the fence on these issues. After some time went by, [a friend] told me that he is going to retire and move to the Copper Country. He doesn't want to get involved in these spiritual matters. In Detroit, [a friend] had been a Bible class teacher and sort of an assistant pastor. He was very knowledgeable about scripture. I would say that there was a good testimony of his faith. But when he went to the Copper Country, he was deceived. I was in Copper Country for a meeting in Pelkie for the caretaking of Nathan Ruonavaara [in 1974?]. At that time he was on the AALC board [later known as LLC]. While I was in the Copper Country, I decided to call him. We had a really nice conversation at first. When I began to ask him about the discussions that we had in Detroit, he answered me in this way. “I don't remember any of that.” So, we can see that when a person loses the Holy Spirit, they do not only lose their understanding of faith matters but even lose their memory. They only remember the things that they want to remember In their carnal understanding. I could go on and on in many things. I want to mention something about Eino Vaherjoki. I got to know him quite well when he was in the United States in 1972. That is when the situation of the heresy that took place in 1973 began to boil over. SRK sent him here. He happened to be the chairman of SRK. We used him [as a speaker] at Detroit fall services. I was so troubled about what was going on, so I asked him if we could go for a ride in my car and discuss the situation. He agreed to do so. And we did go for a ride. He explained to me a lot of what was going on in America. He said that in Finland they have been following the situation in America for a long time. They have been concerned. How long is this going to continue? That is the question that I have today. How long are we going to continue these fruitless discussions that we have been having? When Eino Vaherjoki was in America, he made a statement. Many of you have heard the statement [that I have mentioned]. It went something like this. The last [Torola] heresy was fairly easy to understand and comprehend, because it was about leniency. But the next heresy will be so complicated. It will be like a finely woven spider web. That is what we have seen. Unfortunately, that is why this false spirit is spreading throughout North America. I can't remember what the third point was [that I was going to mention]. I wanted to also mention about the Minister's heresy in Finland in the [early] 1960s. I have copies of the documents which are in the Finnish language. The [ordained] ministers and SRK had had many meetings. They got nowhere. I think someone even spoke about it yesterday. The [ordained] ministers sent one more request to SRK for one more meeting. The response that the SRK gave [was this]: “We have had so many meetings already, so to have more meetings will only cause more confusion among the believers. The doors to God's kingdom are open day and night.” I agree with what was already spoken yesterday and what Allen Pirness brought forth this morning and what was mentioned by David Niemi. I think that the time has come where we need to put an end to this. Our hope and prayer is not that anyone would be lost. That is why I joined in with what Allen Pirness said. Those of you who have a troubled conscience and realize where you are, do not even turn around like Lot's wife did. Leave, and come and repent into God's Kingdom. Repentance as a congregation like Minneapolis or Wolf Lake is not possible. Faith is personal. It Is by individual repentance. I forgot to bring greetings at the beginning of my speech, so I may as well do it now. When I was coming to the meeting, there were many many people who sent me text messages and gave me phone calls. They said that they are remembering us in prayer. Many have said that the time is now. Why should we continue and have more people just get confused? So, I will leave it at that. I will let other people speak. But my hope and prayer is that no one would be lost, but all would be able to come unto repentance who are confused. Also, we want to pray on behalf of those in God's Kingdom because we are all prone to err. We are all prone to fall. Jesus said when the disciples came to ask him, when will these things happen? When will the end of the world be? Jesus's response to that was in Matthew 24: be not deceived. In many of the prior heresies there have been people that have been deceived because of the false prophets that have been going around. [1:37:45]

Curt Simonson, Cokato, Saturday morning on May 8, 2021: Curt Simonson from Cokato. I am doubting why I even raised my hand. Can I hear the gospel? Yesterday at the conclusion of the day, I was visiting with a dear brother. He asked me my thoughts [about the meeting], and I related them. When I got home, my wife asked me how the meeting went. I said that the way is clear. I have thought of an analogy that has often come to my mind during these more recent times. It is now springtime in nature. It is always springtime in God's Kingdom. Faith is new everyday. In the springtime there is new growth. It needs to be nurtured. Oftentimes, in the spring we treat our lawn with “weed and feed”. It nourishes the good plants and it kills the weeds. That is how I picture my life of faith. There are always weeds that want to grow and choke out the good soil [growth], the good seed, which is God's word. Recently, in the last few years, I have had conversations with some [people]. Many of those people have now switched to Minneapolis. At the end of my conversation with those individuals, my feelings watered my doubts. It made me confused. I have had to turn to dear escorts in the kingdom of God. They have spoken God's word to me. I heard it here in the meeting and I heard it in the presentation yesterday from my dear brother [Jim Frantti]. My heart said amen [to the presentation]. The complete gospel watered the new faith. It removed the doubts. There was a time during the life of Jesus, when he was speaking. The Jews came to him and said, “How long will you let us doubt?” Jesus was perfect. He always had a perfect answer. There is also a perfect Spirit here today. Do we hear it? Jesus answered the disciples, when they asked, “how long will you let us doubt? If you are Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you but you did not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness of me. But you believe not because you are not of my sheep. As I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them. And they follow me. And I give them eternal life. And they shall never perish. No man shall ever pluck them out of my hand. My Father which gave them to me is greater than all. And no man is able to pluck them out of my father's hand.” [John 10:24-29] I have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd here. I have heard it in most of the speeches. It is so that every day we must be nourished with the complete gospel. It pulls the weeds and waters the good seed. It is a perfect spirit, even those who have the perfect Spirit are faulty. We heard in a speech this morning that there are faulty people here. It is true. But God spirit is perfect. That will show us the way to heaven. I do not have much understanding. I tremble at the thought of going to serve in Minneapolis under these circumstances. I do not want my doubts to be watered. I want to hear the gospel. I want to make it to heaven. Even now I ask, can I believe my doubts forgiven? [1:44:45]

Randy Herrala, Rockford, Saturday morning on May 8, 2021: I, too, take a turn with many doubts and I tremble. I ask, can I believe my sins forgiven? First, I want to comment on our sister Tuula [Mattila]. I am thankful that you openly spoke as you feel and believe. I want to treasure that freedom here. But there are a couple of matters I have to speak openly about. I can't accept or feel in my own heart that we can characterize what has been happening with one group being all right and the other group being knowledgeable and all wrong. It is rather a difference in understanding; a difference in perspective; a difference in spirit. That is why we are where we are. There is also this matter of speakers being asked to rest. I have to say that those situations where I have been present – the matters have been openly spoken in the congregation. Congregations have spoken. And it seemed good. For the sake of those who were asked to rest for their personal faith and for the sake of the congregation, it has been good for them to rest. Not that they are not dear brothers in faith, but yet it's good for them to rest. The Holy Spirit has spoken in this way. I don't accept this understanding that it must be only a matter of doctrine or open sin. The Holy Spirit can speak in the congregation. As we even heard yesterday, I do not have a right to serve. If my service is not pleasing to the heavenly Father, and he would care for me in the congregation, it is better that [the speaker would] rest. I can rest. And the most important thing: I can still believe and be a humble child in the Kingdom. It does not have to be anything more than that.

As I thought of yesterday's discussion and all my thoughts in recent times, I thought of the different ways of approaching these matters that we have seen. I am now retired from the LLC circles. It was not so long ago that I was there. I remembered our thoughts and our discussions. Now in recent years when questions or issues appear, our thought was how good it would be if we can have an introduction or a presentation prepared or an article written on those particular topics. We can share it with our sister organizations [SRK and SFC], as well. We can then use [the introductions] in our congregations. These have happened in our large services. There have been articles for our regional meetings and our home congregation. We can have a sober presentation and an opportunity for God's children to visit about how we believe. It feels to me that this has been a nice and a safe and comforting approach. But yet it also feels like with some [people] this hasn't been [a good] answer. It has not been sufficient. Some have not agreed with the teaching.

I have referred to this in previous meetings. It had such an impact on me. A few months ago I received a communication from a friend in Finland. It was a document that took excerpts from sermons of American speakers. It covered about four years of sermon time of sermons. They were of several speakers in several different congregations. With each excerpt there were bold words – sentences were highlighted. In some cases there was a commentary about why that statement was not correct, how we believe. I say that we certainly should be free to visit about how our speakers speak and how they understand matters – to care for them and to clarify [matters]. But I have to think that this document did not come from this brother who sent it to me. He does not know English very well. Somewhere it has come from [North America], I have to believe. I don't know how much of this is out there. And I don't know how it has been circulated. But when I read what was characterized, the kinds of things that became issues – all the parts that were taken issue with, had to do with forgiveness, essentially. Sins forgiven when the audible gospel is being preached. The dangers of unforgiven sin. They would take issue when the speaker would say that it when there is unforgiven sin, that sin separates us from God. There is disagreement around the thought that our sins are forgiven in the past, present and future. How do we view that? In this commentary there were comments about how they think that we preach a mandatory duty to continually confess our sins. In this way we are under the law [they say]. It is a works-righteousness [they claim]. There were comments in the document that we believe that the board is infallible. The doctrine of the government of the household of God is what is in question. How are the LLC board and the congregation boards viewed? There was a question even that when Jesus died on the cross, were sins paid for or were they forgiven? In some cases, I wonder: are we splitting hairs or is it simply that we believe differently? Or is it because of the spirit with which we approach these things? But it has certainly left this question to me: do we believe the same? I appreciated the presentation yesterday by Jim [Frantti]. The various points were so comforting. I will have to say that it is how I believe. But I still have this question. Do we all believe as we heard these points yesterday? I doubt and I question whether we all do [believe it]. Because if this is the kind of communication that is taking place in some other channels [social media], not that we can’t speak about speakers and their sermons, but rather to dissect them and to comment on them and to spread them in some media fashion, is this a wholesome way to approach these matters? Personally I feel, it is not.

Another matter that has troubled me. It came up yesterday. I say it openly here because it came up openly last fall in our November MBMAC meeting, the midwestern area board meeting. The item we were discussing was the expiring terms of two LLC board members [Keith Waaraniemi and George Koivukangas]. Discussion took place. The meeting chairman shared a piece of communication from a Wolf Lake board member. He was not present, but he had written [an email] to the meeting. As I recall, because I only heard it once – I have never seen it. I remember that I was shocked, as I heard the email because of its directness and harshness. He explained that this was coming personally and it did not represent a board or a congregation. I accept that. It accused these two brothers of lying. Therefore, the person could not support [Keith and George] being nominated to continue to serve as LLC board members. After the meeting was over, the after-thoughts were too late. I thought that at the meeting the question should have been asked: are there others who feel this way? I think of the time when I served on the LLC board or any service in God's Kingdom, what has made it possible to weakly serve – It is to feel the support of the believers in that work. When I hear these kinds of comments and accusations and this kind of mistrust or distrust, it makes it so difficult to serve. I have to say that I hope that this matter was already cared for. If I don't know about it, I will be happy to hear it. If it is still lingering, it would be an important matter to care for and clarify.

There is also the matter of the brothers and sisters who felt that they needed to leave Minneapolis last fall. I have not been in any pattern of trying to interview people. But in the process of visiting with brothers and sisters, I have visited with a few who were in that situation. My heart has been touched over the anguish that they felt – the trial and the turmoil that they felt approaching the need to leave their home congregation. There were people who were in Minneapolis for years and years, some even lifelong members – I cannot stay there. There was even this thought that I cannot go back. That is why the letters from Minneapolis, as others have expressed, were so troubling to me. It felt like they are not understanding or recognizing or acknowledging that truly that a major event has happened. Those people who had been serving in the congregation in many different ways, and they were lifelong members, they cannot stay. Is a symptom of a contentious and a disharmonious environment that is not correct. To characterize it as people who were unhappy with how the vote on the sale of the church went, it is only carnal. They do not recognize that is not the matter; it is much more than that. And in each case, as I heard people recount their personal feelings around that issue, they have said: I had to leave for personal faith reasons. I did not want to dry up in these matters. I did not want to think evil of others. I did not have the joy of going to services in my home congregation anymore. I needed to go. I needed to distance myself. That is what we are seeing. We are seeing this not only in that situation where brothers and sisters have left. They have felt the need to leave Minneapolis. We are seeing that in personal ways where people cannot visit anymore. They have visited and visited. They have tried to visit about these matters and their understanding. But they have reached a point where it does not pay to visit anymore. That is so sad and fearful. It is a symptom of our time. I certainly agree, how we heard this morning, we are at a point where it is not a congregation matter. This is a matter of personal faith. Where do we stand? How do we believe?

I also joined in with the matter of the speakers being rejected in Minneapolis. In the communication from Minneapolis, they said that Keith and Russ we're not rejected. In my heart I feel they were rejected. I feel that I have been rejected, even though I have not served there in a long, long time. The reason that I feel that way is because of the approach to the speakers. We just heard a brother speak a moment ago. He goes there in fear. Again, it is not only there. To go in fear and trembling, how we might be approached and how we might be challenged. If we have been told that the door goes both ways; no one is forcing you to stay, and so on. It is not support for those who are serving us. So, when these sermons have been analyzed and dispute has been taken into how the speaker has spoken, I can't get my thoughts around this diversity. On the one hand this is taking place. They do not agree with the speakers who are speaking. They feel that they do not understand and are not speaking correctly. On the other hand, there is a plea going out to be served by them. They are the same speakers that they would hear if they went to the neighboring congregations. They would be the same speakers they would hear if [the speakers] came to Minneapolis to serve. I don't say this for all of the people. Yet, those are my thoughts that have been in my mind and heart as I have considered all of these things that have been taking place. I guess in the end, I feel that these are not …... we could tackle each one of these as single items and try to reconstruct them and clarify them, so on. But even that will not be to any avail If the spirit and the heart with which we approach them is not correct. So, my prayer, too, is that none would be lost. But we could be joined in one. And that these things would not be happening among us. But they are symptoms of our time. They are the fruits of our time. [2:03:33]

Loren Hillukka: We have quite a few names on the list. Gary Lehtola has raised his hand twice to grab my attention. His name is on the list. But it is 9 spots down. Define with Gary going after the next turn? Okay, we will proceed that way.

Mitchel Johnson, Wolf Lake on May 8, 2021: I am Mitchell Johnson from Wolf Lake. I am fairly certain there's one thing I am sure that we can agree on. We all want to make it to heaven and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord. One thing I confess that I struggle with to agree with. It is the withholding of God's word and its preaching of the good message from certain congregations. I think that it is an offense towards me, as a member of Wolf Lake. And I think it is an offense towards God. It is being disobedient to his word. The reason why I struggle with this is because a portion of Jesus' teaching keeps coming to mind. I can't ignore it, so I want to share it with everyone here. It is found in the Gospel of John chapter 21 beginning with verse 14. “This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.” [John 21:14-17] So, if anyone here finds himself that they are not listening to Jesus's words and are disobedient to his teaching, know that even now you can believe all of your sins forgiven in Jesus's name and blood. Please stop taking these actions against other congregations. They are only further dividing us. This is not the right kind of step to go forward with by taking these types of actions. The right step in the right direction – as I think it was mentioned a few times yesterday – it would be more along the lines of forgiving one another the offenses with each other versus by taking actions of withholding God's word as a form of rebuke. I think of my little children back home. It is even an offense towards them that the word of God would be withheld – even though they do not even know it. I would also encourage everyone to stop putting pressure on servants of the word, who feel that they should go to serve and feed God's sheep. Can I also believe my sins and doubts forgiven” [2:08:10]

Gary Lehtola, Minneapolis on May 8, 2021: In the third letter that Minneapolis sent out, we wanted to try to express how we believe in a short and concise way. We wanted to get to the foundation of our faith. So, we sent that letter out. We actually arranged an evening in our congregation to discuss that letter, as well. We invited the other believers from the southern Minnesota congregations to join us. We asked them to put the announcement in their newsletter. Some of the congregations refused to do that. It was surprising to me why one would not want to come to discuss the foundations of how we believe. In our five minute speech yesterday from Minneapolis, we emphasized that man is saved alone by faith, alone by grace, alone through the merit works of Christ. Luther states in the book of the Concord about the article of justification by faith. “It is the chief article of the entire Christian doctrine.” "Where this single article remains pure, Christendom will remain pure in beautiful harmony, and without any schism. But where it does not remain pure, it is impossible to repel any error or heretical spirit" (Book of the Concord, under "The Righteousness of Faith Before God" p. 540) In another place, Luther states that this article is so important that we should return to it again and again repeatedly and discuss and study the article of justification by faith. Also, about the word of God. We should continually refer back and return to the word. Luther says that “the church is wrong if it teaches anything besides or against the Word of God” (Luther on Galatians p 59) Let's talk about the righteousness of life. It is a fruit of faith. It follows the righteousness of faith. As stated in the introduction [by Ari Pelkonen] that came from Finland – It is posted on LLC's YouTube site: “Emotions or the endeavor are not a foundation of faith and righteousness.” They are fruits of the faith. There is another topic that I want to touch on. It has been brought up in this meeting yesterday and today. There has been talk about spirits. There has been an exhortation to repent of a wrong spirit. This is not biblical. It is a doctrinal error. “In order for someone to be outside the living congregation, it is either a doctrinal error or living in permissiveness of sin, from which one does not humble unto repentance. It is not possible for a believer to believe the Word of God, to live according to its teachings of the Bible, striving to keep faith and a good conscience, and at the same time have a false spirit from which repentance should be made. So the question is, if repentance is to be made, it needs to be defined – make repentance over what? Is there some issue of living in sin. Tuula referred to this in her speech earlier. Or are there doctrinal errors? But to repent of a false spirit, it is a doctrinal error. [2:13:35]

Alone By Faith

Man is justified by faith, a gift from God, which owns the righteousness of Christ, His merits, and the forgiveness of sins. Luther summed this up in the material principle of the Reformation: man becomes righteous before God alone by faith, alone by grace, alone for the sake of Christ. Christ is the only foundation of faith; there is no other (1 Cor. 3:11).

Righteousness of faith, and the Trinity of God are at the core of Christian doctrine.

Luther states in the book of the Concord that this article of justification by faith is "the chief article of the entire Christian doctrine,", and "Where this single article remains pure, Christendom will remain pure in beautiful harmony, and without any schism. But where it does not remain pure, it is impossible to repel any error or heretical spirit" (Book of the Concord, under "The Righteousness of Faith Before God" p. 540)

Luther states in his Commentary on Galatians that justification by faith "is the truth of the gospel. It is also the principal article of all Christian doctrine, in which consists the knowledge of all godliness. It is therefore most necessary that we should know this article well and teach it to others continually. This understanding is tender and easily damaged. Paul knew this, and all godly people have experienced it."

Paul wrote to the Galatians, when they began to turn from the pure gospel that “ though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” (Gal 1:8)

Straying from the pure Gospel, is straying from the foundation of faith, which is Christ or the Word.

“We must not listen to the church or Peter or the apostles or angels from heaven unless they bring and teach the pure Word of God.” (Luther Commentary on Galatians 1:12, p 59)

“The church is wrong if it teaches anything besides or against the Word of God” (Luther on Galatians p 59)

Righteousness of life follows the righteousness of faith. The righteousness of life means the fruits of faith and life in accord with the values of the gospel (Phil. 1:27)

Emotions or the endeavor are not a foundation of faith and righteousness.

Henkioppi [spirit doctrine]

The doctrine of spirits the demand to make repentance from a false spirit is a great doctrinal error and is not biblical. In order for someone to be outside the living congregation, it is either a doctrinal error or living in permissiveness of sin, from which one does not humble unto repentance. It is not possible for a believer to believe the Word of God, to live according to its teachings of the Bible, striving to keep faith and a good conscience, and at the same time have a false spirit from which repentance should be made.

Is this demand to make repentance of a false spirit coming from the flesh? Or what are we to make repentance of? What are the doctrinal errors?

Repent of a false spirit? It's a doctrinal error.

Ruben Byman, Longview, Saturday, May 8, 2021: This is Ruben Byman from Longview, Washington. In feeling my weakness, I ask: can I believe? There are a few thoughts that have been on my mind. In Longview, I was mostly shielded from what has been going on in the Midwest, until about a couple of years ago. We had a meeting about whether to have Phil Alajoki come and serve us or not. [There are] many feelings and thoughts that I remember from that meeting. One is such. For such a meeting to come before the congregation, there is no unity on our board in Longview. That troubled me. The other issue. The simple fact of having such a meeting – is Phil right or wrong? – I would feel that we shouldn't have Phil serve, because I would be listening with [critical] ears whether he is right or wrong, rather than going to services to be fed. But after that meeting, based on the people I have visited with, it seems like there have been three takeaways. Some people had some level of understanding, but ultimately rejoiced that the spirit was heard and it guided the congregation’s discussion. There were other [people] who may not have understood, but they accepted the decision of the congregation, and they rejoiced that the spirit was heard. The third take away. Some people believe that the love in the congregation waxed cold. They were three very distinct takeaways. The first two are acceptable. The third one, if you feel the love is waxed cold, you need to speak of these matters. To the topic of the speaker. I have been asked this question. If the speaker speaks spiritually correctly, how can you take them down? Correction. If the speaker speaks doctrinally correct, how can you take him down? It brings back a discussion [that I heard] many, many years ago. An older brother in faith from Finland had been visiting. He said that there is some concern in Finland that some are speaking from knowledge and some are speaking from the spirit. The thought has been with me for many years. Another brother shared a story with us some time ago. It was a personal experience. He had repented from the world. His mother was not believing. They had discussed doctrine over and over and over again. They could not find a difference in their doctrine. But it really bothered her that she cannot have [spiritual] fellowship with the believers. Technically, they had the same doctrine, but they were not spiritually united. We pray for a miracle from God on her behalf that she would one day be able to be in the same spirit. The last point I really hesitate to say anything about. Jim’s [Frantti] presentation yesterday alluded to this point. Not long ago, I was visiting with one [person]. He firmly and boldly told me that birth control would be accepted in God's Kingdom if the doctor together with the husband and wife thought it was best. I cannot believe that. I believe that sex is for married couples. Conception is a miracle of God. Man's understanding is but foolishness before God. So, how could I as a simple man choose to prevent God's miracle in the form of a little child? My experience, along with my wife – we have only seven children. [2:19:30]

Peter Ojala, Seattle, Saturday, May 8, 2021: I am Peter Ojala from Seattle. It has been good to be here. My heart tells me that this is God's Kingdom. It is a battling Kingdom. I feel from many of the speeches – I want to get corrected in this if I am wrong – we have forgotten how to rebuke each other. I don't know what it is from, necessarily. But in my own life, I know that It is often from a place of pride. So, I thought to myself. How have I been rebuked in my life by other believers? How has God worked there to show me? It has often been by example of other believers sharing their testimony. I want to share what is on my heart. I don't feel like I am a watchman on the wall. But I love you brothers and sisters here. I heard a speech from Randy Herrala. I know that he doesn't mean this. But this is what puts doubts in me. I cannot speak for everybody. He said that he had retired from the LLC circles. I know we all believe that we are all LLC. It is close to us. I have to share that if there is a little bit of the following of man on all eight sides of this problem. Where do we put our trust, dear brothers and sisters? I want to share this because it has been bothering me. I am doubting Thomas in this. I need to share this. The idea of not sending ministers to another congregation that we hold as believers. I don't know. It gives me pause. It is a very serious and sober matter, just as it is if many congregation members leave. So, I would share this. We all have our own life of faith. We are all shaped by our own experiences, brothers have told me. As a young boy growing up in a small home congregation, I did not know what it was like to be in a big congregation. It was just our experience. [family details omitted] As believers, we are called to do things. I am not saying that is the situation in Minneapolis. It may be different for other believers. But that is how I have been raised. When we are asked [to serve], we serve. We don't know. So, in my heart – another experience that I wanted to share. I was at summer services a number of years ago in Seattle. There was a speaker's and elder’s meeting. The instruction I heard there very clearly was to take care of your own matters. It is not something we do. But God gave me strength there. It was a period of rejoicing. I shared it with many people at the time. I did not want to forget that. As Believers, we have these times when it feels like a sliver of Heaven on Earth. It showed me that this is God's Kingdom. But after summer Services, I had doubts about different brothers in Minneapolis. I don't know a lot of you brothers here. But you hear things. I was able to visit in brief conversations with many brothers that have been asked to serve here. To put my doubts away, about what somebody's motive may be. We have to trust that God guides through our weak servants. They are not perfect people. We need to show love for them. If they need rebuke, dear brothers and sisters, we need to rebuke. We need to be given the strength to do it. We may need other brothers and sisters to help us do it sometimes. I think if there is … I could be wrong in this, because I bring many of my own temptations and doubts. In this matter of rebuke, the first thing that I hear in my ears: Who are you to even say anything? I think that it would be good to hear what is on Keith Waaraniemi’s and Russ Roiko’s heart. We can not force anyone to speak. Those were some of my thoughts. I need to hear the gospel. I need to remain in the Kingdom together with you brothers and sisters. [2:32:48]

Loren Hillukka: Next is Rick Nevala. He will be followed by Brian Johnson.

Rick Nevala: After all of the discussion today, my mind is so mixed up. I will pass my turn to Russ [Roiko] or Keith [Waaraniemi], if they are not on the list.

Loren Hillukka: Russ [Roiko] did raise his hand. Do we want to let Russ speak? I am seeing a nod. Go ahead, Russ.

Russ Roiko on May 8, 2021: I am sort of in the same place as Rick [Nevala]. There has been a lot of discussion, and much has been said. Where do I start? Let me start with a review of some of my thoughts about the meeting from yesterday and today. I felt that the brothers who have spoken directly to some of the issues that they felt and we have been experiencing – Olli Vanska, David Niemi and Allen Pirness – their comments really touched my heart. Also the words that my brother Eric [Jurmu] said. The problem with enumerating people is that it leaves so many people out. Don Lahti, also; his comments touched my heart. I would like to help you understand some of the things that have been going on. I will attempt to describe part of the battle. As Don [Lahti] said, Jim's [Jurmu] time line was really good. It covers the more recent events of the past 5 to six years. But we were dealing with the issues in Minneapolis for a long, long time. We would meet in larger or smaller groups. We would discuss matters at the regular board meetings. The discussions always seemed to bear that amount of fruit – matters were corrected and the gospel was preached. We were able to move forward. As these issues came to a larger format, they were more open and public as they were discussed. Then the matters became more acute. Some of the attacks were quite harsh. But as those discussions went on, it appeared that God revealed that the matters which were taken care of – for example at the minister's camp- were really constructive. We rejoiced over it, even though there were some aspects of it that were left disturbing in that sense. What was the understanding that created some of the repentances? It did not bear fruit in that aspect. We're left wondering, where does that lead to? I'm going to switch gears. I will try to describe in another way what was happening in Minneapolis. As speakers and board members looking at the life of the congregation, we were concerned for a while that because of the movement Westward that the congregation would be shrinking. What does it take to maintain its support? We had a group of people [committee] go through those calculations. We felt that we had membership at that point in time to keep the congregation going for some time. We will not run out of funds in the immediate future. But through that time, there were issues and discussions and spiritual questions kept coming up. Some members were leaving Minneapolis and some new members were coming in. The annual meetings each year in March became more and more contentious. The last annual meeting where I was in attendance in March of 2020, it was a 10 and a half hour meeting. For the most part, the decisions went in the way that I felt were constructive and a blessing to the congregation. Because of the pandemic and all of the restrictions, there was restriction to the congregation throughout the summer. [Then] we received – as Allen Pirness referred to – a wonderful offer or a blessing from God as a way to move forward for this divided congregation. As we approached the meeting [on September 20, 2020], we approached it with the hope that the congregation would understand it just as that – as a blessing of God. It would help us move forward. It does not mean that the funds do not stay in the congregation. It gives us the opportunity to do whatever we want as members of the congregation with approximately three million dollars. But that is not the way that the conversation went on September 20th. It felt like we were as watchmen on the wall – we had been warning and battling and sounding the trumpet over these different issues and attacks. There were discussions and attempts to deal with them in our congregational discussions. It felt like the enemy had gotten into the city. By September 20th, as we looked at it, the enemy was now in control. Those people who were battling against us, had been battling against those issues as they were discussed in the kingdom of God. The enemy was now within [the city]. We felt our own weakness, tiredness. We thought that it was time [to leave]. In order to save our own life of faith, we had to retreat. One brother – as far as I know he did not have any idea what we were contemplating before Sunday morning on September 27th – he told me and another brother: I think it is time for Aaron and Moses to take their troops and go. He is a straightforward shooter in that sense. We took it partly as a joke. It was partly his recognition of what he had seen on the previous Sunday. There was one dear sister who is a timid and meek church mouse in the corner type of person. Never would she take a turn to speak. Never would she raise her hand [to speak about] something in the congregation. She listened to the discussion on September 20th. She told Sinikka and I – I don't think that I can go back to that church. The attacks and the mudslinging was so bad that one sister for the first time in her life was in that kind of environment, she left halfway through the meeting. The sarcasm was so thick that she couldn't take it anymore. But in one sense it speaks of how sad that situation was. We had become so used to the mudslinging over the years that we had become hardened to it. It took that kind of a strange happening to cause us to wake up and say: This cannot go on. I am going to dry up and die in faith. We keep trying to battle. Dear brother Mike [Jurmu] said as the chairman of the congregation, when he told the congregation on the morning of September 27th: I feel that I have to resign, because I no longer represent the majority here. I cannot contemplate even trying to prepare for the next annual meeting, knowing what we had gone through on the previous one. That is the way that I look at it. God shook us awake. He took us out [of the congregation]. It was, dear brothers and sisters, a spiritual schism. It was nothing less. That is why it is so critical that we would obey the voice of the spirit. The Prophet told King Saul – “Obedience is better than sacrifice; and to hearken than the fat of the lambs.” [1 Samuel 15]. “Disobedience is the sin of witchcraft.” If we obey the voice of the spirit – that was my experience in the Torola heresy battles. During those battles, the first thing the spirit said to me: It is time to clean the house. I was 23 years old at the time, when those spiritual battles started to come Into my life. I became aware of it in the real sense. It was during the winter of 1968 and 1969, I studied at Michigan Tech in Houghton, Michigan. I was no different than anyone else. The leniency was so prevalent. The temptations of the flesh were so close that I fell right along with the rest of them. I went back to Minnesota to study because it felt more secure. And I saw when the battles came that it was like an eye salve. I listened to the voice of the trumpet. God gave me strength and an opportunity to put those matters away. Then I clearly saw where the battle was. The division went between my parents and my siblings. There were ten of us. Me and one brother were spared and my sister. She went into heresy but received the grace of repentance. That is where my family is still today with all of my siblings. I thank God that but for the grace of God otherwise I would have been lost. God and His congregation has carried me. They have taken care of my faults, errors and weaknesses through these many years. The congregation of God, dear brothers and sisters, is a golden candlestick. It is all of gold. It is holy and precious. It is the community of saints. That is why the issues that are before us this weekend are so absolutely serious. It is a question of life and death. There is nothing less than that that is being put before us. I don't know if I have taken too long to speak. I don't know if I have given too much information or too little information. Dear brothers and sisters, I am able to add anything that has been left unclear. I don’t know if I have misspoke. I am weak and poor. Can I believe my sins forgiven? [2:48:05]

Loren Hillukka: It is 10 minutes before noon. We will try to break for lunch at noon.

Keith Waaraniemi on May 8, 2021: I just want to note here that I did request a speaking turn a little bit earlier. I don't know if Loren saw me or not. Maybe I was way down the list yet. I just wanted to clarify that this turn that I am going to take here, wasn't necessarily in response to Peter Ojala. But I gladly openly speak before God's congregation and confess my faith. I cannot do anything else. I feel deep weaknesses on all sides – on the right and on the left. The enemy attacks. Can I believe my sins and faults forgiven? I say Amen to what brother Russ has already said. I will not reiterate that, other than to say. When we left Minneapolis for the sake of our own faith, I personally did not think that no speakers would go there. I was not requesting that. I didn't even suggest that. It was not my thoughts at all. But when the brothers explained how they felt about not going there, then I understood. My concern, and my family's concern, Is that these battles have been long and hard and wearing and tiring and drying, As I know the other Minneapolis brothers feel. We needed to leave for our own faith. I ask for your prayers and also that you would remember my family, as well. I certainly remember all of the Minneapolis people. Everyone of you is dear to me, as well as the Wolf Lake brothers – especially my childhood friend Bruce Johnson. I have great love and concern for you. Bruce, as I said when I visited you, and Sue, last summer. I came here because I hope that the day does not come that we cannot say God's peace to each other anymore. But it is that serious the matters that are before us. They are serious. The thoughts that I had were about the questions that have come, and continue to come: What are the spiritual differences between Minneapolis Wolf Lake and the rest of Zion. First of all, I would say that neither of those congregations are homogenous. They are not all of the same mind In those congregations. We speak, of course, above all else, about personal faith and individual faith. Before I forget it, Mitchell Johnson asked the question about the speakers – not sending speakers. I know that Jon Bloomquist has referenced some Bible portions, when we have discussed these things. I would hope at some point that he would speak to that. First of all, the question comes: What do we repent of? What are the differences? I really feel and understand from my own experiences In Minneapolis as well as discussions with Wolf Lake that the doctrine of the congregation Is one doctrinal error. The independent, even adversarial attitude of the local congregation toward the rest of Christianity is not right. The statements that we heard In the beginning – I join with some of the comments that have been mentioned or made – the statements from Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, while they were nice in their own way, they felt to me – as someone described it – self-sufficient. There is all of this concern that is out there about brothers and sisters – and I say, not all brothers and sisters in those congregations – but brothers and sisters in those congregations. But yet the statements would give you the picture that everything is well. Or something in that direction. Where is the distress? Where is the crying out, help us? You need help. As I told one Minneapolis man and his wife, when Kathy and I met with them. Simply reach out. Reach out blindly. Say that we need help. We want to be part of this Kingdom. But it has taken so long – these many months – that Minneapolis, a congregation dear to me, has not done this. It seems like it is more to come forward with a defensive posture, as we have even heard at this meeting. As Sam Roiko mentioned [about] this congregation doctrine matter. I'm sure Minneapolis folks, as well as Wolf Lake, and all of us, would agree that the Congregation is inerrant – the entire Congregation of God Is inerrant. But yet as Sam [Roiko] mentioned Christ’s words, when Christ pointed to the disciples. He said they are my mother and my brother and so forth. [Matt 12:46-50]. It feels to me from my experience. My understanding is this. In Minneapolis, there is not – and I would say Wolf Lake, as well – not this kind of a heeding voice to the cry of the mother, to the congregation of God in its entirety. Rather, walls of defense have been built. I think that the letters have revealed that, even to explain how you believe. As one brother put it from the letters of Paul. How does Paul say it? We don't need letters of commendation. Through the spirit we know each other and understand each other. So, to begin to explain all of these things, which were all good statements from the [LLC and SRK] website and the bylaws, it felt foreign to me. Then this independent and even adversarial attitude from these two congregations. I felt it has also come forth in other ways. In the sending and the receiving of speakers – Minneapolis and Wolf Lake have gone their own way, in spite of the concerns in Zion. I say this – I hope – with the right love. The brothers that have served Minneapolis have either not known what the situation is or matters are not right with them. They in disobedience to the voice of the spirit, that I feel has spoken in these matters, have done it anyway. I fear for those brothers. I wonder, how can you do that? How can you go out on your own and do that? Secondly, I feel like the matter of the Holy Spirit – the work of the Holy Spirit, as we heard in Jim's [Frantti] presentation – has been minimized. There is much speaking of God, of Christ and God's word, but when we speak of the third person of the godhead, or the Holy Spirit and the work of the Holy Spirit. I have been in discussions where time and again this matter is skirted. We hear the comments: Go to the word. And so forth. Luther has written of the antinomians. I will read one quote that one brother shared with me that I feel describes this. “That is what my antinomians, too, are doing today, who are preaching beautifully, and as I cannot but think with real sincerity about Christ’s grace, about forgiveness of sin, and whatever else can be said about the doctrine of redemption. But they flee, as if the very devil, the consequence that they should tell people about the third article of sanctification. That is of the new life in Christ. They think: one should not frighten or trouble the people, but rather always preach comfortingly about grace and forgiveness of sins in Christ.” Then I would also note that also we hear much about Christ and grace. I feel that they are emphasized in such a way that endeavor or the caring for the life of faith and the conscience are minimized. We hear the common phrase: look to Christ! When we were discussing those matters yesterday, one thought occurred to me. I think Jim [Frantti] mentioned it in his presentation and there was a comment or two in the discussion about the fact that we live by the gospel. We live in the Forgiveness of sins every moment. We are carried by the grace of God. Our sins are cleansed in the blood of Christ. We are heaven-acceptable, not because of our own purity or keeping up-to-date so to speak In confession. We don't lose faith when we fall into sin. But in these discussions, I have also been concerned when we are emphasizing one side of the way. Do we lose sight of the other side? Is there a danger in these discussions of losing the fear of God and the fear of doing sin? It is a very sensitive matter that we need to be very careful with. When we emphasize that our sins are all forgiven, as they are when we live in Grace. None of us could care for all matters of conscience. As we heard yesterday, we do not even know them all. If we begin to say or to over-emphasize the fact. If I fall into sin, I am still heaven-acceptable. I remember the precious instructions from the elder brothers that I worked with. They would always say – when we worried that when I die with matters of sin on the conscience – they would say that God will prepare us for death. That is scriptural. God prepares us for death. We don't have to be concerned about that, when we live in grace. But if we lose somehow the focus in this and begin to say – well I did fall into sin. I am heaven acceptable anyway. I think that there is a danger. I am having a hard time expressing exactly what I feel. We want to keep faith and a good conscience. God will help us to do that. God will prepare us for the final moment when we are endeavoring in faith. Yes, we live in grace. We live in the forgiveness of sins every moment. But we need this precious gift of confession. Another matter that has troubled me. It is the academic approach to the matter of the faith. We experienced this in Minneapolis year after year. Go to the word we often hear in recent times. It is the instruction. Of course. We heard yesterday, and my heart agrees 100%. God's word is the highest authority. The word is so connected to the congregation so that we do not even speak about them being separate. It's so that we want to be – our understanding would be in sync with the understanding of the spirit that opens the word in the congregation of God. I think that there are some who have lost sight of these things. They have become scholars in their own way. They rise above – may be unintentionally – the voice of the congregation and the understanding of the congregation. May we always humble ourselves to the understanding of God's congregation. The Spirit that opens the word and [it] is based on the word. The doctrinal discussions that we had in Minneapolis became so tiring. People who simply wanted to believe, as always had, started to feel pressure that they must understand doctrine more deeply. The emphasis on doctrine started to come across In a way, as one brother described it, as the law. If we start to demand that we understand doctrine, we also lose sight of the basics of childlike faith. A child cannot understand doctrine. But it is an example in the Kingdom. This I would say to dear brother Gary, in answer to your question, this is why people did not feel comfortable coming to Minneapolis for the discussion about the foundation of faith. [It is] because we have been through it time and again. The more that we had so-called doctrinal discussions in Minneapolis, the more confusing things became. It did not unite us. Then …

Loren Hillukka: It is ten after 12. Are your comments short?

Keith: A few minutes. Then there is a mistrust of those who God has called to serve. The accusations that we have experienced – false, baseless, ugly accusations have been made publicly. We cannot see Into the heart of someone else. But anger, bitterness, harsh speeches, distortions, rumors, secret recordings, exedra, uninvited guests coming to board meetings and making things difficult for the board – It is not of the spirit. All of this pertains to why many felt the need to leave Minneapolis. And there were those who were of another mind that joined Minneapolis. We became so tired and needed to leave. So, when we speak of the matter of spirit, we cannot see into the hearts. But anger, bitterness and harsh speeches are not of the spirit, nor the other things that have been described. The meeting that we had on September 20th – as Russell said – we had gotten so used to hearing the accusations that we almost could not hear them anymore. But they were harsh and bitter. They were not of the spirit. So, when we talk about matters of spirit and whether there can be wrong spirits in God's Kingdom, doesn't Christ say or the word of God say in the Epistle of John: try the spirits. If there was not the possibility for false spirits to be among believers, how would we explain the parable of the ten virgins. How would we explain Christ’s words to the angel of Asia Minor: You have a name that you are living, but you are dead. [Rev. 3:1] He was exhorted unto repentance. So, to wrap it up. The potential for heresy is real. It is real. We pray that it does not happen. We exhort you, even if you do not understand, dear brothers and sisters who are straying. Be diligent today when you hear the voice of the congregation calling – repent. God will give understanding. May he help each one of us. I feel weak and sinful, in spite of wanting to openly share how I feel. I ask, “Can I believe my sins forgiven?” [3:09:30]

Loren Hillukka, Elk River, Saturday morning, May 8, 2021: Lunch is ready. There are 18 names remaining on the list. It will continue after lunch. We will rejoin here at 1 pm.

I guess that I feel compelled to yet address Tuula’s [Mattila] comment about the decision reached by the southern Minnesota congregations not to send speakers to Minneapolis. My words were yesterday as she related. It was a form of rebuke. I heard through some of the speeches here how they have looked at [the decision] purely from the standpoint of an academic question. “Is there ever a time when servants would not be sent to preach God's word?” I personally feel it is an incorrect place to be looking at this matter from, because it ignores what brought it about. As we have heard in recent speeches [by Keith Waaraniemi and Russ Roiko], half of the Minneapolis congregation left in late September [27, 2020]. Half [of the congregation]. The few timid [people] that came to Elk River were weeping. They were not rejoicing and laughing that they had pulled a fast one over those people who were still there [in Minneapolis]. They were weeping, because they felt that they had lost the fellowship completely with those who had remained [in Minneapolis]. When the southern Minnesota congregations gathered to discuss this matter [on October 6, 2020 in Monticello], right beforehand the interim board from Minneapolis sent out a letter. Keep in mind the spiritual difficulties that caused many people to leave [Minneapolis]. They publicly stated in front of the congregation – those who spoke that Sunday in Minneapolis [September 27, 2020] – they were leaving to save their own faith. Many personal psalms were related later to how they had to leave to continue believing. It was too difficult in that situation to see clearly the pathway to heaven. Then this letter from Minneapolis was sent out. I will read these words [from the letter]. “We are writing to you due to events that have occurred in our congregation. Recently, some of our members moved to other congregations in southern Minnesota. With this change, we want our congregation’s desires to be known by fellow believers in North America and beyond.” The concern of the believers in southern Minnesota is that there was no acknowledgement, whatsoever, that there were problems in the Minneapolis congregation. At the October [6th] meeting last fall when we met here [in Monticello], it was evident from the speeches of those people from Minneapolis. They were there simply to proclaim that they wanted to endeavor in the unity of the other believers. The unity was already broken. Half of the congregation [had] left. In that meeting, the question was asked several times, including by me, if Russell [Roiko] and Keith [Waaraniemi] were to go back to Minneapolis and serve, would they be accepted? It was a question that was on the minds of all of the servants of the word. It was their own personal psalm that the congregation did not want to hear them. If we believe the same as they did [that] they had been rejected – and I use that word “rejected,” because I believe it – how could we go and serve in such a situation where other speakers had been rejected? There has been discussion about this point since then. “We did not reject them”. We have seen the words in the letters from Minneapolis. One former Minneapolis member was so bold in our last congregation discussion. To say that they were not rejected is nothing but a lie. It's not the question of do we go to speak or not. It is because of the gravity of the situation. It was plain [clear] that those people from Minneapolis, and Wolf Lake, who also attended the meeting [October 6th] that they did not see. How can we as servants of the word go and preach to people who rejected the other believers in that congregation? They made life so difficult for them, they had to leave to preserve their own faith. That is why I said that it is a form of rebuke. Many discussions had already happened. Many matters have been looked at and spoken [about] openly and privately. It is wrong if you simply look at it in this way: Does the Bible ever say that you cannot send speakers? You need to look at the matters that exist. As we have heard, they are matters of life and death. Those poor and weary travelers that left Minneapolis, expressed the thought. They said that they chose life, because they were seeing death. This is how I believe. For each one of us here, I would encourage you to speak openly. Put yourself before the children of God that are gathered here. If we are wrong, we will be cared for here. I feel my own doubts and sins. I ask, can I have those forgiven? [3:17:25]

Let us stand and sing the meal song.

Loren Keplinger, moderator: We have about one hour. There are a number of names on the list. I don't want to dissuade someone from raising their hand. I do want to encourage you who have speaking turns: Try and speed it up. Make your points [quickly]. We will make an effort to run through as many names as possible. We have about one hour. I just got one more name, but I forgot the name. Also, I encourage anyone who is online. You can ask to speak through the chat button or contact Adrian Pirness. With that we will get started. I will begin to go down the list. I think Brian Johnson is next. Is Brian is here? I have agreed with all of the comments that we have heard. It has been so nice to hear the clear message from God's kingdom here today. I think it is a loving call to those today, as well. Go ahead.

Brian Johnson: I agree, also, with what Loren just said. It is a clear message. God has opened his word to us. He has been revealing so many things. It has been good to be here. I had a conversation yesterday before I left. It seemed like people were over troubled over the accusations and unfair pointing out [of people], and whatnot. I felt that it has been a loving [atmosphere] here. I want to read from Hebrews [chapter 12]: “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us … For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.” [Heb. 12:1, 3-6] The rebuke that we have been hearing is God exhorting us to take care of our matters. I hope and pray that the God of Heaven and the spirit that dwells in God's Kingdom would open up your heart, to have a contrite heart and spirit, and your ears to hear. The trumpet is blowing. We have heard the call to repentance. It's not a death sentence or punishment, but it is a loving call for you, who has erred and gone astray to different paths. Return to the narrow way that leads to heaven. This chastisement is a loving rebuke. It is to cause you to pause and to find yourself and see where you are at. May the heavenly Father keep us all as children in his kingdom. I still ask for the gospel. Can I still believe? [gospel preached]. I promise to believe. [8:55]

Loren Keplinger: Next up is Tanner Collette. Are you still online, Tanner? After Tanner is someone who is behind Curt Simonson. Who might that be? Thanks. Is Tanner online with us? [Tanner] may not have joined this afternoon. Let us go with Ryan Koivisto. We will circle back to Tanner, if he joins us. After Tanner is Josh Byman. Sue [Johnson], are you still wanting to speak? I have two [people] in front of you, then he will come your direction. Go ahead, Ryan.

Ryan Koivisto, Phoenix: I have a number of thoughts. I will try to keep it short. For myself in Phoenix, I have not had close connections with Minneapolis or Wolf Lake. For a long time I have not known what the deal is. A few years ago I was listening to a sermon. While I was jogging, I would put on a sermon. It was from a brother in Wolf Lake. This was even before I was aware of any spiritual battles. He was talking about the matter of unforgiven sin. He referred to some article [sermon by Valde Palola] which stated that unbelievers do not have unforgiven sin. I have been troubled by that. At the time I was troubled. I just let it go. Then the spiritual battles started to come to light. The matter kept on coming back to me. I asked in discussions how we feel about that. I believe as Jim [Frantti] stated in his presentation. We are righteous and sinners at the same time. We do not have to go and confess every sin, in order to be saved. If we have faith in her heart, we are saved. Over the years there has been this emphasis on this. I feel that it leads to an acceptance of sin and the diminishment of the gospel. It has been mentioned. I have family members that have had conversations with people in Wolf Lake. They have been told that it is wrong to teach your kids that it is sin go to movies or to say that listening to music is a sin. I felt that the overemphasis on this that we have no unforgiven sin and the diminishment of the gospel leads to the permissiveness of sin. That is one thought that I have had. Another thought [that I had]. It has to do with Minneapolis. I don't have a personal relationship with people in Minneapolis. When I heard that half of their congregation had left along with speakers and board members, my heart sank. Is this the start of a heresy [I thought]? Then we got a letter from Minneapolis. It was so dismissive of the seriousness of the situation, as has been mentioned. It is troubling to me. In the three different letters [that Minneapolis sent], I have not heard a plea for help. I have heard an acknowledgement that there are problems in Zion, but there is no plea for help for problems in their congregation. It still troubles me to this day. After we had a congregational discussion on it [in Phoenix], It was pretty clear to me that it would not be appropriate to send speakers [to Minneapolis]. It was not a healthy environment. There are people who had experience in Minneapolis. It just did not feel like a healthy environment that I would feel comfortable sending speakers to. Soon after that I had a chance to visit with someone from the Minneapolis congregation. I left the meeting feeling very, very troubled. We left greeting [with God's peace] and preaching the gospel. But I felt in my heart that should I even be greeting [him]? One thing that came forth from the meeting. One couple heard a recording of that meeting. The two accounts of that meeting were 180 degrees different. Keith [Waaraniemi], Russell [Roiko] and others who left were bitter and angry. I asked if I could listen to a copy of that meeting. I felt like it was the other way around. There was no love [for Keith or Russ]. It was said that the door goes both ways. There were speakers who had served that congregation for years and years and were referred to as visitors from Florida. To me, love is not there. It was very clear to me. It is not a place that I would feel comfortable sending speakers to. That being said, there are people in the [Minneapolis] congregation who are struggling and want to believe. They want to be a part of God’s kingdom. I have heard the call. There are other local congregations [in southern Minnesota] where God's word is being spoken. Reach out and go to those congregations. One of the things that has been troubling me even more about that meeting. There was no rebuke for those comments in that meeting. We have had congregational meetings in Phoenix, where incorrect comments were made. They were immediately rebuked and spoken to. I didn't hear that [in the Minneapolis meeting]. For all of my doubts and fears and sins in this matter, I would like to hear the gospel. [16:20] I would like to be corrected, too, if I am in error.

Loren: Do we have Tanner online? Is Tanner good to go? Go ahead.

Tanner Collette, Williston: God’s peace! I will try to collect my thoughts and make it brief. My heart has said amen to many of the comments. It has been good to listen this weekend. In fear and trepidation, I was also hoping to hear a comment that my spirit did not say Amen to. I'm sure the vast majority of you have had a conversation, as I have had, that is very troubling and disturbing. It is a very strong connotation of distrust of the LLC board and other members in God’s Zion. I can relate one particular conversation with a Minneapolis member shortly after that meeting last fall [on September 20th]. He made very serious and grave accusations against brothers that I hold to be dear brothers in faith. He spoke of doctrinal differences. But he had a tone of bitterness and animosity. I heard this also in the past few years. It keeps coming back to me – this feeling of bitterness and animosity. Those who have offended or have been offended – either way. I know for myself when I have offended another person, I have continually found ways in my own mind to justify my actions. I have even found myself alone in my own thoughts, thinking up ways to argue that I am correct. I was not wrong. I should not have to approach that [person] and take care of matters. I feel in my heart that this bitterness is consuming hearts. No matter what the doctrinal differences may be. As Tuula [Mattila] mentioned, she would like to go through Jim's [Frantti] presentation point-by-point. I think the gospel first needs to be preached. The feeling of animosity and bitterness needs to be taken care of before we get to ever try to discuss. Going through point-by-point. The Holy Spirit does not make … We do not have to have an arbitrator and come to a mutual conclusion. The Holy Spirit is … There is only one correct doctrine and one correct spirit. There is no compromise to be made in God's Kingdom. We all need to believe according to God's Word and the Holy Spirit, and to be of one mind and one accord and one faith. It troubles me that this feeling of bitterness and direct accusations that you hear in personal conversations. It seems to be distributed so freely outside of these meetings. I have not heard that same direct voice here this weekend, asI have heard from members in Minneapolis. I say with a great feeling of weakness. I've heard that maybe there are no differences. They are simply trying to believe. Yet in personal conversations, you hear serious accusations against Keith [Waaraniemi], Eric [Jurmu] and many others LLC board members. If there are those people here at this meeting – I do not know if there are, as I am not there. If there are those people there who have made these accusations in the past or have these thoughts in their heart, we would like to hear from you. Offenses could be cared for. Then we could discuss further. That is all that I have. I, too, would like to hear the gospel. [21:20]

Loren: Next we have Sue Johnson. On my list is a female sitting next to Ann Parks. Is there still somebody else back there [Emily Parks]. I will let you go after Sue. Go ahead, Sue.

Sue Johnson, Wolf Lake on May 8, 2021: I have a lot of fear. I have thought, should I even speak because I am from Wolf Lake? I am going to try to be free. In the last few years, many of us here in Wolf Lake have had our faith questioned, and there has been a call for repentance. Our congregation has been labeled as a foreign voice. I personally have not heard an explanation of what that foreign voice is. For me personally, this type of behavior towards Wolf Lake has been traumatic. Speeches about a group of people – even labeling this group as an opposition group – has caused me grief and caused division. When the doctrinal articles started coming out in Finland [Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever], I rejoiced. I thought: “Now everything is going to be cleared up because this is how we believe.” That is how everyone else in Wolf Lake also believes. Jim, I agreed with your presentation. Can we be free and personally confess our faith and have a respectful discussion about doctrine and how we believe? Let’s show love, patience, compassion and mercy in the light of God’s Word, instead of opinions, perceptions, feelings, rumors and even slander. Can we please clarify the accusation that people have a wrong understanding and a new way of believing? If I have a wrong understanding and am at fault, I want to repent. Listening to the speeches yesterday, I felt that it was a lot of fault finding. We could sit here and list each other’s faults until next Saturday, because who of us is without fault. [Is that even edifying?] The 8th commandment says: Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor. We should fear and love God so as not to lie, betray, slander or raise injurious reports against our neighbor but think and speak well of him and put the best construction on all he does. The best, not the worst. It would have to say the speech [by Paul Waaraniemi] about Wolf Lake being compared to Jellivaara as the center of enlightenment as an injurious report. I desire to believe. Do I have permission to do so? Can you forgive me all of my sins? I want to follow the voice of the Good Shepherd and the Holy Spirit. We live under grace, and I can believe my sins are forgiven at every moment. Faith is simply trusting in the promises of God. Because of faith, we are righteous even though we are sinful at the same time. I believe my sins are forgiven and I am a child of God, because God says so in His Word over and over again. I believe it! In the death and resurrection of Christ, all of our sins were reconciled. That does not mean that I do not desire to use the grace gift of confession or to take care of offenses. But my salvation and justification is alone by faith, alone by grace, alone by the merits of Christ, by Scripture alone. All glory [goes] to God. Recently we were told the following: There is a group of people that believe when their child comes to them to confess a sin, the parent tells them – that is okay; you don't need to confess your sins; they are already forgiven. This is simply not true. We desire to hear those words of the gospel – the good message of Christ – believe your sins forgiven in Jesus’ name and blood. We bless our children and we bless each other. Our son just left on a trip. I blessed him with the gospel and said to keep faith and a good conscience.. We are here to mutually help one another. We are all together the body of Christ and are led by the Holy Spirit, that is connected to God’s Word. If there is a wrong understanding by anyone, I pray that we would adhere to our by-laws which state: The Holy Word of God is the only rule according to which all doctrines are to be examined and judged. Let’s show mercy to all and forgive one another our faults, as we are all sinful and fall short. Can I hear that gospel again? [Since her speech was getting long, she did not read from Ephesians 4:29, 32, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers … And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”] [26:23]

Emily Parks, Minneapolis, on May 8, 2021: Emily Parks from Minneapolis. I am one of the people that has been spoken about as a group of people from Minneapolis. I really felt compelled to attend today. I have heard many different things from people. [Regarding] the meeting on October [6, 2020], I heard multiple accounts [of it]. I was told that there was a comment that was harsh and alarming to my ears. I asked about it. I was told that the person who made the comment was [corrected]. I talked to my parents about it. My dad said that he did not hear that. So, I decided that I don't want the opinion that someone would give a false account intentionally about something, so I came here to hear with my own ears. Obviously, everyone knows that there has been a lot that has gone on in Minneapolis in the past few years. As someone who has been there for 25 years, it is sad and dreadful what has been going on in the last 3 years specifically – [maybe for] four or 5 years. We have seen a lot of change. The reason I wanted to share my side of [the story]. We have heard one side of the perspective from some individuals that have left Minneapolis. It seems like that account of the situation has been widely accepted. As someone who has been [in Minneapolis] my entire life, I felt compelled to give my side of the story, if you will. I had a couple of thoughts based on some of these comments that have been made today. I guess I will just start at the top. One of the comments from earlier today. Someone said, “how long are we going to continue these fruitless discussions?” “The time is now.” Does that seem like we are taking things into our own hands as humans as opposed to listening and following what God has intended for us? Multiple people said that we have discussed, we have discussed and we have discussed. Maybe it is so that both sides have not had open ears to hear. We only have a pre-judgment of what people are going to say. I have seen that for myself. I think there has also been a sense of fear in attending these meetings over the past few years. But fear is something that drives us to please men, but faith is something that drives us to please God. These times have certainly been such that it has stopped everyone to pause and evaluate themselves, what do they personally believe? There has been a lot of back and forth. Unfortunately, there has been – as someone said – mudslinging from both sides, which is sad and regretful, obviously. It has happened on both sides. I acknowledge that. But the beautiful thing is that God is love. In true love there is no fear. All of these things that have gone on last fall and this spring, [they] make me sad. Over Easter we were not able to have a minister in Minneapolis. I have had to [live] with that. In true love there is no fear. God has love for all of us, even when we fall. There were a couple of other things that I heard. Curt [Simonson] mentioned earlier something about weeds. I hope that you are not insinuating that the people in Minneapolis are the equivalent of weeds. [For] someone who has tried to make known their genuine intention, hope and thoughts, it seems like it diminishes what a person has to say. Randy [Herrala] mentioned that the mistrust or distrust makes it difficult for the servant to serve. I can believe that. I respect that. I think it begs the question, “why do we have a sense of mistrust?” I would hope that most people would not want to consider themselves a conspiracy or look at somebody with something in their own eyes to purposely have a reason why not to believe what somebody is saying. I don't want to live my life that way. Unfortunately, there have been things that have happened in Minneapolis over the past few years that people have had questions about. It is the genesis for the reason why people were attending board meetings in Minneapolis. We were hearing two different messages. At some point, you need to hear these things for yourself. That is what led me here today. Maybe there was something said or done that was not the best. I can acknowledge that. I think that others can, too. I think it is important to remember that there are always two sides to a story. You yourself would want to truly listen to someone else's account of that. Randy, I'll have to say that I liked your loving tone in that comment. I certainly did sense that [it was loving], and I appreciate it. A couple of other comments that came up this afternoon. Minneapolis and Wolf Lake have gone their own way. I don't know how a person can better describe it when there has been a true and sincere plea to remain with the believers. When that is rejected, and to say that we have gone our own way. The people in Minneapolis desire to believe. I've been in Minneapolis my entire life. The people there sincerely want to believe. I think [this is] an example of this. One of the letters that we received was a response [from Jim Moll]. I appreciate that we got a response from somebody. I truly felt sad [by his letter]. We [in Minneapolis] stated in our letter that we were sincerely looking for someone to serve the fellow believers in Minneapolis, and we wanted to believe. But in the letter that we received, it said that we do not understand the level of seriousness of this [matter]. We don't understand. But I can tell you that there have been many [kinds of] comments in our meetings last fall and [other] things that have gone on. I have felt like sending a response – maybe to send an email, [a letter by] snail mail or to give someone a call. Instead of doing that, I chose [to come and] listen. I can tell you that when there is a group of people judging your sincerity, it is extremely hurtful, especially if the individual or the group of people have no idea who you are. I'm not saying this to guilt or shame anyone, I'm just saying this from the other perspective, because it has been a lot. It has also been asked, “why was it so bad that there was such a large group of people that felt they had to leave Minneapolis for their own faith?” I acknowledge it is a good question. Another question that I have is, “why was it so difficult in the first place that the people thought that they needed to leave?” I have multiple answers for this. Other people may, as well. I think it is a fair question to acknowledge, if you want to look at this with honesty, fairness and objectiveness. To resolve an issue, we have to be honest about it. Recently, I have lost three friends in faith that have left. I was in attendance at Minneapolis in the September 20th meeting. There was conversation about whether to sell the church and move on. It is a physical building. But it was clear that there was no intention that we would continue elsewhere [as a congregation]. It was somebody's opinion that it was going to be a gift to sell the church and for all of us to disperse. I was visiting family in Phoenix on the Sunday September 27th when people decided to leave Minneapolis. When I came home, all of my friends had left. All of my friends had left. Worse yet, I have lost three friends over this conflict and controversy. I am not asking for pity, I'm just giving you my side of [the story]. My question is, for these kids that are growing up with this conflict, what is their vision of God's Kingdom? For five to six years there has been dreadful commentary at these meetings. Someone just mentioned it earlier. Just think about it. Five years ago, a person who was 10 years old, is now 15 to 16 years of age. What does the future of the resolution of conflict look like in God's kingdom if one cannot be honest with each other and talk about the issues, but continues to talk about people. If nothing else, I would ask everyone to sincerely think about it. Isn't it our [desire] that everyone would make it to heaven, even if we do have personal quarrels or there are conflicts and other things that are going on with people. Isn't that what we would want? We are losing so many people. It stings when they are people that you are close to. Obviously, it does every time you hear about somebody leaving faith]. But there has been an increase lately. I'm just begging people to consider that. We are supposed to show love. God’s children are known by their love. In some of the comments, I surely felt the opposite. As a member of Minneapolis, I attended Rockford for a presentation last fall or early winter. I felt a little bit of apprehension going in there, because there is a stigma about Minneapolis. It was a bit uncomfortable for me to attend there. I tried not to be in my own head about it. But I noticed that there were a few people looking my way. To be honest with you, it was highly uncomfortable.

Loren Keplinger: Emily, is there any way you can wrap it up? There are a number of names on the list.

Emily Parks: I am trying. I think that it is fair to hear from somebody in Minneapolis, because there has been a lot of conversation [about them].

Loren: I appreciate the input. I appreciate the commentary. There are more people who want to speak from that end, as well. I would like to give them a chance.

Emily: Yes, absolutely. We agree. The last thing that I would say, based on comments that I have heard today and things that I have been thinking about. There has been a lot of emphasis on doctrine. Some people think that we are leaning a little bit too much on it. For myself, one reason why it has become important to people, because we are living in times of storms. We are trying to hang on. We have seen how opinions can change on things. One example of this is the robe of righteousness. I remember earlier it was said that the robe can be stained. There was a Finnish Minister [Arvo Pyykkola] who was serving in the Howard Lake [LLC summer] services [in 2017]. He said the opposite. The robe actually cannot be stained. I believe from that point on the message had changed. If you wonder why people are looking to God’s Word and our doctrine, it is because we have heard things that have changed. After all, we have one shot at life. After that, you hope that you are in the right place. I think with any large decision [in life], you want to weigh the options. You want to weigh the information that you have. While it is not exactly the same with faith, I think that is why people are so highly concerned [about doctrine]. It is not to become wise in ourselves. It is our salvation that we are talking about. Thank you. [42:50]

Loren: Next we will go to Josh Byman. Then we will swing back to Matt Honga, Pat Kariniemi. First is Josh.

Josh Byman, Menahga, Saturday afternoon, 8 May 2021: I have to say that I sit here in my chair and tremble. I had these thoughts earlier when I asked for a turn to speak. Although this weekend is a sobering and difficult time to discuss, it has been a joy for me to be here. I am able to sit in the midst of God's Kingdom. I have to say after these last several speeches [Sue Johnson and Emily Parks] that I tremble. I questioned in my own heart: Why was my turn moved to follow those [last two speeches]? Dear brothers and sisters, I need your prayers. I need to have my own sinfulness and doubts forgiven. Can I hear the gospel? I have had many thoughts during the last day and a half, as we have sat and listened to these discussions. First, my spirit has answered many of the speeches. My heart rejoiced over the presentation [by Jim Frantti] that was kept yesterday concerning the many of the topics that have been points of discussion, which have been points of question during the last five to seven years, maybe even longer. I have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd. [It has been] a loving call to those of you who are battling against God's Kingdom. When I heard our dear sister [Tuula] Mattila from Minneapolis speak at the beginning of her turn, at the beginning, it was interesting to hear an accurate representation – at least to a certain extent – of what is here before us today. I felt that there was a part missing. It was described as two groups. It was accurately described that one group was meek, timid and humble. The other group was accurately described as knowledgeable, historical and academic. [The conclusion] was left that one [group] considered themselves to be good and the other group is considered to be bad. I hope this comes across as accurately as I feel it. When I think of the comment, we are not battling here as individuals, but this is a battle of spirits. On the one hand, the meek, small, timid, fearful, humble voice is the voice of the Holy Spirit. It is calling, admonishing and rebuking the voice of knowledge and reason. It is a voice of pride, independence and arrogance. They have bitter hearts that are rising up against God's Kingdom. It is rebuking that [other voice]. It is a spirit of man and flesh that is rising up and battling against the Holy Spirit. I have had this question in my mind. In fact, I have had many questions in my heart during the last day and a half while listening. I have had a sense of hope and joy in my heart. Many of you have felt the need to question, criticize, rise up and battle against God's holy Kingdom. It is good that you are here. It is good that you can share your psalm. It is good that you can pour out your heart. Most importantly, it would be good if you could hear [the rebuke]. I have had this question: What brought you here? Did you come here to criticize? Did you come here with pride? Did you come here with arrogance, bitterness, knowledge, reason and firm understanding to examine the whole of God's Kingdom? Or did you come here [perhaps] confused, struggling, maybe wondering and seeking in your heart? Did you come here with the prayer of the psalmist: “Search me oh God and know my heart; try me and know my thoughts. See if there is any wicked way in me. Lead me in the everlasting way.” [Psalms 139] Do you hear the voice of the Good Shepherd? It is a loving call [that is] exhorting and calling you to put away all pride and bitterness. I know from my own experience that when I have had pride, bitterness and questions in my heart, it is easy to criticize. It is easy to point fingers. When I can have this simple prayer – search me oh God. The gospel is still here today. It has the power to cleanse and to wash away all of those worries, questions, doubts, and the uprisings. Those things can be taken care of. I can say that when those feelings of pride, bitterness and criticisms are taken care of, nothing else matters. You will find that this love which has been broken will be restored. That is how things are cared for, [so] things can move forward. If we don't [take care of these matters], it leads to a place of everlasting darkness. Jesus said that the beginning of his time of preaching: Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The Kingdom of Heaven is gathered here before you today with loving arms and waiting to preach the gospel and you take care of all of those feelings of bitterness, offenses, wrong understanding, whatever it may be. Take care of all of those things before it is too late. One point that I thought that I would address. I will not take much more time. I can understand and appreciate the feelings of you in those congregations where the Holy Spirit has revealed to the rest of God's Kingdom that we would not send speakers at this time because of the situation. I can understand and appreciate the feelings of offense. How easy it would be to find even in Scripture justification for why man should continue to go [and serve those congregations]. Even though it would be contrary to [how] God's Holy Spirit has led and guided the congregation. Jesus did say: feed my sheep. Jesus also said when he sent his disciples out to preach. It is stated in Matthew chapter 10 beginning with verse 11. My understanding, dear brothers and sisters, could be way off. But this portion has remained in my mind. “And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.” [Matt. 10:11-15] I do not mean to cause offense. I don't mean to call anyone out. But I say this for myself. Where does that lead each one of us? [There was a] situation that happened in Minneapolis where many felt that they could no longer stay [there] What is the condition of that house? Again for my many worries and doubts, can I hear the gospel? [55:30]

Loren Keplinger: The next two will be Matt Honga and Pat Kariniemi. I will then figure out the next one.

Matt Honga, Minneapolis, on May 8, 2021: I am Matt Honga from Minneapolis. I wanted to start out by saying that as humans we carry much weariness. It has been spoken about a lot here. We should return to the portion in 1st Corinthians chapter 13, where it speaks about love. It says that love is patient and kind. It bears all things and hopes all things. It says much more about that. It was just a quick paraphrase. In one of Luther's articles he does say about patience – we would want to be patient even up to 100 years. It does seem long [this struggle], but in God's eyes it is just a blink of an eye. The important point that I want to bring out here in the light of scripture is how things may have been perceived regarding Minneapolis and the events that have happened [there]. Unfortunately, I was not there on September 27th [2020]. I was down south on a family vacation. So, people obviously had disagreements. There was a physical separation. When we look at God's Word, we can resort back to Jesus's teaching about the Church Law of Christ. You yourself know if you have reached out to someone in Minneapolis. You have done the right thing. I don't know how many calls have been made [to people in Minneapolis]. It is good to realize that when we fear God, we also want to do the right thing. If there are two sides, we [don’t] only listen to one side and perceive it to be the truth. There has been a question: does the truth matter, whether it be a temporal or a spiritual matter? God knows all of our hearts. When we seek another [person] to speak about matters of faith and conscience, we are doing the right thing. Can we ever err by approaching a brother or sister In the first step of the Church Law of Christ? Going back to the reports that we heard yesterday, there was a meeting that Seattle and other congregations outwest were trying to set up. It was an act of love. The meeting never happened. God knows the reasons. We don't have to get into them. It would have been a neutral start. Even though it was more than a few [people], as it says in the second step [of the church law of Christ], so that every word could be established. Early on prior to this... I don't want to go on Tit for Tat. One thing for all of us to know, even though we know that there were difficulties in the congregation, we are living in tumultuous times and every congregation is also battling. During our discussion [in the fall of 2019] we wanted to find resolution among the Minneapolis congregation alone. We wanted to have a discussion, but if we could not find resolution, then we would seek out either the LLC or Finland. This was pre-Covid time, so we were willing to pay what we needed to in order to buy plane tickets or whatever was needed, depending on who was to come. There was a question why some would have mistrust in some areas. Two days later, some on the [Minneapolis] board decided to call the LLC before we had our congregation meeting. There was a meeting [with the LLC and the Minneapolis congregation in November 2019]. It was with the presence of the LLC. But the congregation did not have a chance to try and clarify things to find out what the differences were [before this meeting]. I want to read two verses about caring for your brother and being your brother's keeper. It says in 1st John chapter 3 verse 17, “But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?” There is another [portion] in Proverbs chapter 21 verse 13. “Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.” I want to read it again. “Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.” No matter how all of these letters [from Minneapolis] have been taken, God knows the hearts. Please help us??? I want to move on to the story of the Good Samaritan. Whether we would be a minister or a Bible class teacher or someone who reads the Bible just for their own good, how do we perceive this parable? There was this person lying [on the ground], wounded and half-dead. We could think of this as a congregation. [And] we would walk on by. We know how the story goes. The Good Samaritan, who is a picture of Jesus, carried the person into the inn and bound up his wounds. The Innkeeper was offered to pence, which is a picture of Grace and Truth. When the message of grace and truth would be spoken, we know it falls on four types of soil. Not everyone is able to hear these words and believe. When it is offered, God is the one who lets the seeds be rooted into the heart and believed. I will try to keep it brief. There has been talk about people who have served [in MInneapolis]. I would encourage you to go back and listen to some of these sermons that have been given in Minneapolis. Maybe some of you have [already listened to them]. One that struck me as I listened to it on the way to work one morning. The speaker [Antti Pentikainen] talked about a ladder that goes up and down to heaven. He read from a short portion in the Gospel of John and in Genesis 28. The Angels were ascending and descending. This was their message to God: These people still want to believe. I can only say for myself, even though my faith might be like a small flickering candle, this is how I believe. This talk about people is so harmful. It is abusive in some ways. Where is our salvation? In the Wilderness Journey the fiery serpents were biting the travelers, [but] when they beheld the picture of Christ on that pole, they were saved. We are all sinful and fall short of the glory of God. We all need forgiveness. In the Old Testament when there was that forgiveness, [but] there are two types of penitence. We know the story back to back about King Saul, who blamed the people. King David fell into the great sin of adultery, but he didn't see his condition right away. Even though he said in the parable that that man should die, that took the poor man's sheep. But when Nathan said to David – you are that man – God had compassion. Your sin is removed from you. I would have much more to say. And I want to say that for the speaker Brothers, sound doctrine is important. It is so that we would preach to save ourselves and those that hear us. There is a danger when there is an incorrect teaching that it can lead others astray. I will close by saying. When we realize how much Christ has died for us, wouldn't we want to have that love one for another and to be forgiving and compassionate. Here is a portion in Corinthians where it says, “ For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” [2 Cor. 5:21] So, be encouraged; there is still time. If you have questions, call those people that you may even disagree with. Speak to one another. Use the gospel. Mend the [broken] fences. Without calling we cannot say, I believe some [report or rumor]. it is not according to Jesus’ teaching. I know that I am far from perfect. I want to ask, can I have all of my sins forgiven? [1:06:20]

Loren Keplinger [moderator]: I was asked to wrap it up by 2:15, but I will break the rules and go till 2:30. Pat, you are next. If you can keep it to 5 minutes. We have been going 15 minutes with each turn. It would be nice to fit in a few more turns.

Pat Kariniemi, Minneapolisi on May 8, 2021: I think that I need less than a minute. I just wanted to respond to Ryan [Koivisto]. We came here to give that cry for help. We want help from this group, from each of you here and your congregation back at home. We are easily distracted by the temporal aspects of this conflict. Our words are weak. When we have met as a group in our congregation, It has been that we would get help. I just wanted that to be very clear. It was not clear in our introduction [raport]. It was not clear in our letters. We want everyone to know that we desire help. [1:07:53]

James Ojalehto, Minneapolis: This is James Ojalehto from Minneapolis. In the beginning here, I recognize my own faults and frustrations. I have probably offended people. I want to hear, can I believe all of these sins and doubts forgiven? I would say that it is my true desire to travel with the small flock of God's Children. We heard today and yesterday that it is a sign of rebuke to not send servants of the word to Minneapolis or Wolf Lake. The question that comes to mind – and it is a good question for everyone of us to ponder – should a mother starve her child and call it love? We have also heard in speeches today that it is time to cleanse [the kingdom]. There has been talk of heresy. To me, it has been very troubling. We can all ask ourselves another question. Does the True Mother want to divide the body? I leave you with these questions, for each person individually, and to ponder them. I know how I understand these two questions. May God help us in our American Zion to show through his word and spirit the correct way. That is all that I have to say. [1:10:06]

Olli Kujala, Minneapolis: This is Olli Kujala from Minneapolis. Yesterday we heard the reports. And there was a nice presentation by Jim Frantti. I was expecting a little bit more discussion about the topics in that presentation, because they are the core of our faith. We have heard many comments yesterday and today. Many faults have been brought up. Many of the faults are at an individual level. I would encourage that they would be taken care of at that level. I have found myself to be faulty so many times. I ask, can I still believe? I want to believe with all of you. Our goal is to reach heaven. And we want to carry each other. We want to help each other with kindness and forgiveness. Instead of using any more time in expressing my thoughts, I thought that I would make a proposal. If we would take a moment and sing song 565. “A home in heaven waits for me.” If this would be possible. [1:14:10]

Loren Keplinger, Saturday afternoon, May 8, 2021: Can we have one more comment from Nathan [Muhonen]? And we will break to Jim Frantti for his closing comments. Then there is a closing devotion. Can we sing that song between Nathan's comments and Jim’s closing comments? I think it is a nice suggestion. Song 565, was that what it was?

Nathan Muhonen, Rockford: Dear brothers and sisters, I have sat here all weekend and heard many comments that my spirit said amen to. I have [also] heard other comments that have troubled me. I had the opportunity to visit my dear “kummi boy” [God child] during lunch. We visited about these important matters and concerns. I don't have answers, and I don't even pretend to have answers to these problems and difficulties. My “kummi boy” [God child] was asking in his speech: Why wouldn't we send servants? I was asked to serve [in] Minneapolis right after the departure [of the speakers, board members and half of the congregation]. I was supposed to teach Bible class right after [September] 27th. I didn't know what to do. I went to the brothers in [Rockford] congregation. What should I do? I don't feel that it is the right thing to do at this time. If they did not hear my brothers [Keith Waaraniemi and Russ Roiko] who were speakers there – to whom my spirit said amen – I do not feel that I should be speaking [there]. If the [Minneapolis congregation] did not like [Keith’s and Russ’s] message, it certainly will not like my message. Being that I was weak, I asked the brothers in Rockford. They said that it is best to pause for now. I was criticized for this [decision]. I received phone calls. They asked me why I would not come? Timidly, I tried to explain why I would not go. You are not strong enough to go on your own, [they stated]? I said, no I am not. I am too weak. I need to be sent. There is a calling and there is a sending. I need to also be sent with a blessing from the [home] congregation. I would have to say that we have had spiritual battles in Rockford. But now we are experiencing a time of peace. It is a time of work. It feels very comfortable to go and serve [in Rockford]. Although it is not ever easy. Nevertheless, it is comfortable. It is a joy to be in the [Rockford] congregation. There is peace. I hear that there is peace in Minneapolis and in Wolf Lake, too. There cannot be two forms of peace. There are many forms of peace, but there is only one true peace. We feel it through the Holy Spirit. I don't want to be the one to hope for a heresy in any way, shape or form. But heresies have happened. There must be heresies, the Bible says. We heard about the time of Moses. Korah and his followers rose up against Moses and Aaron. They [Korah] said that you [Moses and Aaron] take too much upon yourself. We have [also] heard this. There are brothers on the LLC board and working at the LLC [office] who take on too much. They are heavy-handed and high-minded. I have heard these statements with my own ears. There has been much criticism against the kingdom of God, it's workers and servants. Dear brothers and sisters, the only way that we will move forward is that [you will] make repentance. If that sounds harsh, I don't know what else to say. It is Scriptural. It is loving, It is what we hope and pray for. I pray that my brothers and sisters will take care of me and rebuke me when I need it, even though my flesh may not like it. But the peaceable fruit that comes afterwards is wonderful. As we have heard many times, faith is personal. If we leave God's kingdom, we [will] leave on our own. If we are given the grace to repent, we [will] return on our own. Alone by faith, all alone by grace, alone by the merit works of Christ. It is none of our own doing. I ask for your prayers. Can I have my sins and doubts forgiven? [1:21:30]

Loren Keplinger: Unfortunately, we are out of time. I will ask Jim [Frantti] to come up and give some closing comments.

Jim Frantti, closing comments: I know that Olli [Kujala] requested a song which we can still sing. But I thought that it would be good to first get in these comments. By the way, Olli, the song that you asked for. It is a special song in my family and home. Many of you know about our two boys that died some years ago in a car accident. Song by 565 was my son Tim's favorite song. Every time we had home song services, it was the song that he wanted to sing. It is also the song that my son Peter's confirmation class chose as their confirmation [class] song. As much as I love the song, I have to say that it is hard for me to sing it. But it is a very special song. Dear brothers and sisters, a few closing thoughts that I will not only speak on my behalf but also on behalf of those who serve and have helped to arrange these two days of meetings from the LLC board. [1:23:16]

Closing Comments May 8, 2021 Jim Frantti, LLC Board Chairman: First, I have to say that I have felt and still trust that the Good Shepherd has been with His flock as He has promised to be. The Holy Spirit has spoken to us yesterday and today. We have been reminded of the treasure that is in God’s kingdom and of the preciousness of living faith. There is no other way to reach heaven. Jesus spoke of the love between His own; it is the sign that would allow all men to know we are His disciples.

That teaching of Jesus guides us to examine our own conduct and speech and ask, have we shown love towards our brothers and sisters. When we think about this question, let us not look to see if they have shown love toward me, but have I shown love toward them. Has my speech and communication been done in love? Has there been a critical mind toward fellow travelers or toward the Zion in North America? I have to say that the harsh words and criticism and bitterness in some speeches I have heard over the last few years do not come from the Holy Spirit.

I thought of a portion of James, chapter 3. He wrote, “Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace” (verses 13–18).

One thing struck me yesterday. We heard more than once in speeches that there have been secret recording of visits and meetings and notes taken and summaries made and sent all over the world, and we heard encouragement to avoid that. Yet I heard that people in Finland had received summaries of reports that congregations gave here yesterday and also a summary of my presentation. What I spoke yesterday is not hidden. It is how I believe, and I want to be an open book. However, it is troubling to hear about the spreading of such summaries, even after the concern was expressed.

The discussions about calling or sending certain ministers or not, or about selling the church in Minneapolis or not, these are not the problems. They have not caused division. They are the results. The question is not whether a minister is sent or not to a certain congregation, but the question is what has caused division between us.

We have also heard discussions many times, though it has not come up this weekend, about the 70s and 80s and the caretaking that happened then. Sometimes these are brought up as if matters have not been resolved. My question is, what would it take to put these matters to rest so people wouldn’t have to carry unforgiving hearts or bitterness?

Errors were made. People dried up in caretaking both in North America and overseas, but matters were cared for and most of those involved have gone to rest. The difficulties of those times have been openly discussed at meetings, acknowledged in articles in the Päivämies and Voice of Zion. To continue to hold bitterness will only hurt oneself, rob one’s joy, and eventually cause shipwreck of faith. Paul wrote to the Corinthians that what you have forgiven, I also forgive (2 Cor. 2:10). Let us forgive errors of the past and move forward.

There is criticism of the teaching and also questioning the understandings of the Zion of North America. We have heard that Finnish believers believe differently than here. That has not been my experience. I have had opportunity to make a number of trips to Finland and Sweden, and sitting in services there, I could be sitting at home. There is the same message of God’s word and the gospel. The same spirit teaches there as here in North America. We have rejoiced over the unity of faith of the boards of the Zions of North America, Finland, and Sweden. We have regular meetings and discuss how we believe and have felt complete unity. Those brothers have testified of that as well. The message of the gospel is the same here as there.

The enemy of souls is trying to divide us. Do not listen to the enemy. We are not fighting against each other. We are fighting against the enemy of souls who would like to bring us down in faith. This is a common battle. This is not a debate where one is proven right and one is proven wrong; we are battling together against the enemy of souls. I dare say that in that battle, none of us comes through it without wounds. Let us fight the good fight of faith together.

There have been letters sent around broadly, also to Finland and Sweden. The brothers there wonder why they received those letters. They were surprised by what was sent. If we trust in the Zion of North America, that is where we can be cared for. If I could not trust the Zion of North America, I would wonder where I am. Some have said we have been taught wrong in North America for many years – one said for over 100 years. To me that claim pulls the foundation out from under us in the North American Zion. Where are we then if we have been taught wrong all these years? Where is the secure foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone?

There have been thoughts of wrong teachings. What are these wrong teachings? The teaching that I hear today in God’s kingdom is the same as I heard as a child. Recently there have been accusations, very troubling accusations, of spiritual abuse and public humiliation. Soul care is love, not abuse. When a brother or a sister approach me in love, wanting to take care of me, and say, dear brother, your words were weak or your understanding on that matter is not correct, that is not spiritual abuse. It has been troubling to hear these statements.

When we hear these criticisms of the North American Zion, local boards, and the LLC Board, and these accusations of spiritual abuse, it seems we cannot say there are no differences or divisions among us. It’s clear there are two groups in the North American Zion. The enemy tries to divide. I think it is time for all of us to stop and ask, where is my heart? The enemy does not like the unity of believers. It is always working to divide the flock and to divide us from the flock.

So it is good to ask, where is my heart? How does the kingdom of God look to me? Do I see it as a place of refuge? Is it a place where I, a weak traveler, can entrust my care and help? Do I see its beauty? Or do I see its faults? You don’t have to look far for faults, you can see them right up here right now. I know my own nature and know that you would not have to look far to point out my faults.

God’s kingdom is a place of righteousness, peace and joy. A place of love and forgiveness, where sinners can be cared for. It is not a place of oppression or demands or wrong teachings. How do we see this Zion of North America? These criticisms of the LLC Board and local boards and ministers have been sad to me. I have served alongside these brothers for some years and found them to be weak servants. None of them have asked for this duty. God’s kingdom has called them and entrusted them with this duty. They have wanted to be obedient. They have felt their own personal weakness and have wanted to hear the gospel. Brothers who serve are sinful brothers.

Dear brothers and sisters, I say from the heart, and not in outward humility: I am chief of sinners among them. Paul wrote to Timothy: everyone should accept this saying, they are chief of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15). I would ask you, how do you find yourselves today? Are there others who are chief among sinners?

Jesus, our Good Shepherd, gave His life for the sheep. We have been redeemed by the blood of one who had no blemish or spot. He offered His life to pay for our debt of sin. Yet death did not hold Him. He rose victorious. He lives and because He lives He can keep His promise. He is still with His own, as he has promised to be until the end of the world. Personally, I’ve felt His presence here these two days.

I told the brothers visiting over lunch that the discussions yesterday and today have left me joyful and saddened. Joy is the greater part. It has been joyful to hear speeches from so many brothers and sisters from so many congregations to which I can say in my heart that is how I believe. It has felt so secure and is such a reason for joy. But dear brothers and sisters, we have also heard speeches that have left me troubled and sad. Some have been finding faults with how God’s kingdom has approached certain congregations, instead of finding faults in themselves. It is easy to point out faults, but do we find ourselves faulty in these things? I ask those who have criticized other North American congregations for not sending ministers, do all faults lie with others? Is there fault at home?

We cannot go on as a divided flock, and we do not want to fall away. We have heard this same thought in speeches which have been critical of North American Zion. We have heard that they want to reach heaven. This is the flock that is traveling to the eternal home in heaven. It is important that we are traveling in unity with the flock of God’s children.

We do not want to rise above the flock in teaching and understanding. We do not want to be teachers or lecturers. The Spirit is our teacher, we want to have ears to hear it and not teach from our own understanding. The Spirit will speak even through weak and faulty travelers and will lead in the right way. We pray that God would open all hearts to find the need for God’s grace and forgiveness.

It was clear yesterday and today that there are two different groups in the Zion of North America. And I simply say that we cannot go on that way. We cannot say that we would just take a fresh start. That is not how matters are cared for. We care for our own personal matters through repentance and believing the gospel. We have heard words of instruction from God’s Spirit these days. We have been joyful and thankful that we have had such broad participation this weekend. It gives a feeling of security to see so many brother and sisters here and to hear your speeches.

It has also been good because the enemy has tried so hard to divide and spread inaccuracies. No matter how poor the economy, one mill that always goes full steam is the rumor mill. Here this weekend you have been able to hear for yourselves. You can bring what you have heard back to your congregations and discuss there.

The recording secretaries will prepare a synopsis that will help you in this. We hope God’s Word and loving instruction here yesterday and today, the instruction of the Holy Spirit, would be taken to heart, especially by those of a different mind. The words of one brother from Minneapolis expressed the need for help; it is a good request, a good plea. I very much encourage any of you, whether individuals or congregations, that are confused about these matters, or feel you are not in union with the teaching of God’s kingdom, to make that plea and request for help. We want to help each other. If you feel a need for help, please feel free to make that request. There are those who are willing to help. I say they are weak and would help in fear and trembling. Yet in love we want to help each other.

It is not our wish that anyone would be lost to the enemy’s wiles. He has been busy of late. From my heart, I want to encourage those who are confused or troubled or who have not been able to join in unity of spirit with the discussions here these days. Seek help. Jesus promised, seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive. We can trust in the promise of Jesus, dear brothers and sisters. Let us remain trusting in the care of God’s kingdom, trusting in the Zion of North America. We’ve heard requests that we should seek help from Finland, that that is where help needs to come from, but they have said they have nothing new or different to offer. The kingdom of God is here in North America too. They have the same battles there. It is good that believers of North America can trust in God’s guidance here. We want to seek help within God’s congregation. It is in North America and with us today.

Instead of looking for faults among believers, or reasons to criticize boards of North American congregations, let us look into our own hearts and ask, where am I. Am I in unity of faith and spirit with the believers here? That’s where I want to be. I struggled over keeping the presentation yesterday, and, with this summary today, I struggled even more. I am not a wise one among you. I only want to serve as asked, and all I can do is speak how I believe. I want to be an open book. As servants especially, we need to be open books. How can congregations care for us if we are not open books?

So I make that humble plea to those of you who may be of a different mind these days, seek help. Help will be given. Do not put it off. We cannot continue to be a divided flock. The enemy wants us to be divided because then we are easy prey. We do not want any to be lost. I say that for myself above all. I don’t want to be lost. I want to remain on the way that will bring me to that eternal goal of heaven one day.

I know my own sinfulness even in speaking here to you with these weak words. I prayed that God would give right words and that you brothers and sisters would listen with charity in your hearts. But above all, carry me in prayers and forgiveness, can I even now believe? (Gospel preached).

I want to believe. It is the only thing that will get us to heaven. Not serving, not studying, not wise words, only believing gets us to heaven one day. The power for that is in the gospel. As a weak servant I reassure you that you may remain yet believing. In Jesus’ name and blood all sins are forgiven, dear brothers and sisters. It is a good place to be where the gospel is preached. We can so freely believe without any merits of our own. When sins are forgiven, they are all forgiven. We can believe with joy.

Tommi Kinnunen: closing devotion [3:08 PM]