Meeting of the Boards of the Midwestern Area Congregations (MBMAC), Rockford, November 20, 2021

Testing. Okay, if we could all come in the sanctuary here and get this meeting underway. We're going to begin with opening hymn number 208.

¶¶

[Hymn sung (Song 208); lyrics not transcribed]

Let's begin this year's Midwest Area Mission Committee meeting in opening thanksgiving and prayer.

Holy and righteous God, our dear Heavenly Father, as we have come here together to discuss the work in your precious kingdom, dear Father, we come here desiring to lift up our thanks unto you. We thank you, dear Father,

All the gifts and blessings that you have bestowed upon us. We thank you for all those temporal blessings, our homes, our families, the escorts that we have, the work that you have given unto us, and all that we have

All that we have in this daily life, we thank you, dear Father. But above all these, dear Father, we desire to lift up our humble thanks unto you for this greatest gift that we own in our hearts, this gift of living faith.

By and through the blood drops of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Dear Father, we ask that you would continue to lead and guide us. As we have gathered here this day, dear Father, we ask that you would open each one of our hearts

That you would lead and guide the discussions in this meeting according to your will and your spirit. We ask that your love would continue to shine forth here in this world, calling those on the outside of your kingdom,

And to your precious kingdom. Dear Father, bless our gathering today. Give us freedom. Speak that which is on our hearts. And we enclose all our thoughts and unsaid prayers in that perfect prayer your son taught us to pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen. First of all, dear brothers and sisters, I would like to extend a warm and heartfelt welcome

On behalf of the mission committee that has put this agenda together, also welcome those who are participating remotely. And a reminder, if you haven't already signed in in the back there, please do so. There's a sheet there to sign in for those who are all participating. And for those of you that are joining remotely,

You can text Ben at [phone number omitted] with a list of the participants that you're with at your remote location. It's good to see you all here at this meeting to discuss the way and journey and the work that God has directed us to do.

For those of you that are remotely online, to take a speaking turn, we ask that you would text Bob Niemela, and his number is [phone number omitted].

So text him if you have a comment and we will get you connected to make your comments. So again, welcome, dear brothers and sisters. We ask God for his blessing this day.

So at this time, let's stand and sing song number 140 in remembrance of the rest of the blessed that have passed away this past year and the years prior.

[Hymn sung (Song 140); lyrics not transcribed]

Okay, we'll quickly review the agenda. The first item on the agenda will be the selection of officers for this meeting. Then we'll have the spiritual discussion, which the presenter will be Keith Moll, and Curt has agreed to moderate.

Once we are done with that, we will move on to the business portion of the meeting. There will be the Midwestern Area LLC board member's terms expiring. Then the Midwestern Area Mission Committee terms expiring.

We will move on to the Stony Lake Hasscib Lake Camp Board. Terms expiring. Then we'll have a LLC operations update and Phil Jurmu will be giving that along with updating us on Stony Lake and Silver Springs development.

And then new business, if there is any. And then Rod Nikula has agreed to do the closing devotion for today. So at this time, I would ask if there, well, maybe we should do the selection of officers first.

The mission committee has asked Monticello to provide the meeting officers this year. And Monticello has suggested Nate Jurmu to chair the meeting and Kevin Kumpula to serve as meeting secretary. And I would ask for a motion to approve those officers. Ron Simonson makes the motion. Do we have a seconder?

Jeff Hanson seconds it. All in favor. Thank you. The mission committee has also asked Annette Johnson again to be recording secretary and she has agreed to do so. And we thank you for that. So is there any new business

That anyone wants to add on to the agenda at this time. And if not, we can always add it at any time. You can feel free to bring up whatever you want to discuss anyways. So, I will turn this

Meeting over to the officers for the meeting. We can get it started. Thank you.

Okay, we will, if there is no new business to add, we will move into the spiritual discussion. So we will now ask Keith Moll to come and present the spiritual topic, the parable of the vine, and then following the presentation, Curt Simonson will moderate the discussion.

God's peace, everyone. This topic is timely, and the parable that Jesus spoke in John 15, 1 through 6, is the theme or topic, and it is

A very simple parable that Jesus spoke but it is so rich and it also pertains to our lives today and the situations also in our lives that we experience and it reminds us of God's

Tender care and also the importance that we remain as children of God attached to our Lord and Savior and how precious this exam is and some of the thoughts initially in looking for and preparing presentation

My thoughts had turned to how God has prepared, and Jesus speaks in the parable of that true vine, but also that connection to Christ, and also how that Christ and his congregation are so closely, and that connection is

Inseparable and God in Christ is found in his kingdom. So with that, I have some information that I gathered from previous presentations and then also some of my own thoughts. And so I'll begin by reading that parable.

If I can get this to advance. Having trouble, Adrian? There it goes. Thank you. I am the true vine, and my father is the husband.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away, and every branch that beareth fruit he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,

Except it abide in the vine, no more can ye except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit. For without me ye can do nothing. If a man abideth not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is

And men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Jesus, the true vine. Jesus used this parable of a vine to explain the life of a child of God. A branch that is attached to the vine receives nourishment

And it bears fruit. The husbandman removes those dead branches that don't bear any fruit while pruning the ones which are fruitful. This pruning increases the fruit that the branch will produce. Jesus explained, we are the branches, he is the true vine. Every branch that is joined to the vine has life.

All other branches die. They dry up and are burned in a fire. God, the perfect husbandman, cares for the branches which bring fruit, so they will bring abundant fruit. If a branch bears no fruit, it also is removed from the vine tree.

What is the connection between Christ and his congregation? Juhani Uljas explains in the book, The Treasure Hid in a Field, how God's congregation is the community of people whom the Holy Spirit has sanctified. And I'll read from that portion of the book, reading, holy means separated from someone,

The members of the congregation of God are not wholly of themselves or saints. On their own part, they are participants in original sin and feel the influence and its corruption in themselves. But God has called them and has forgiven their sins through the gospel preached of the Holy Spirit. Thus he has separated them from the world.

And put them in unity or connection with Christ, where they can own his holiness. They have the holiness and righteousness of Christ in the fellowship of the congregation. If this fellowship breaks, they are like a vine's dry and dead branches, which do not bear fruit.

The work of the Holy Spirit must continue in us for our corrupt nature wants to separate us from Christ and his congregation. This thought or this explanation here also especially reminded me of that portion that we carry in our flesh and

It's a battle that we have that our flesh would want to separate from Christ and his congregation. But yet it is here where we receive such love and care and we receive that which is necessary and important and we've experienced the joy

But yet we carry that portion which resists such a blessing that God has given. But when we are connected, it also gives us, through the Holy Spirit, that desire to continue to endeavor and remain as a child of God connected to this congregation that is here on earth that God has placed

Uljas continues writing about the work of the Holy Spirit and the communion of saints in the following. Before his suffering and death, Christ prepared his disciples for the change ahead of them. He said, For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you. But if I depart, I will send him unto you. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,

He will guide you into all truth. That's from John 16, 7, 13. The resurrected Christ sent a message to the congregations of Asia Minor. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. We also ask that God would keep our ears open

To hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and His congregation. The communion of saints. According to Scripture, the communion of saints is realized in the congregation. Paul writes,

Now ye are the body of Christ and members in particular. 1 Corinthians 12, 27. The members live and act only together with the body. They do not have life separate from the body. When one member suffer, whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it. Or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Jesus' parable about the vine and its branches is familiar and meaningful. The branches can bear fruit only if they remain attached to the trunk. A song in Zion depicts the fellowship of the children of God and that fellowship that we experience as God's children.

I thought also in this presentation we'd pause and sing song number 204. Let's sing this song 204.

[Hymn sung (Song 204); lyrics not transcribed]

Songs that we sing,

I have those precious sermons also that remind us of how we as God's children travel and have experienced that love that is, there is no comparable or no deeper love that we have experienced. And later also in this parable, it speaks of, or after the parable, Jesus speaks of those fruits. And later in this presentation also,

Comes up those fruits of how first we have been able to experience that forgiveness of sins for our own crop portion and have been able to be taken from the depths of our

The damnation that we would deserve for sinful portion and that practice love, this kingdom of God connected to Christ and this congregation that is here on earth. We wish to dwell together in unity with God's church and care for each other with that.

Precious gospel. Preach that gospel one to another and journey on that way to the heavenly home. Where Christ is found, Jesus promised to be with his own.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you and with you always, even unto the end of the world. Jesus had promised his disciples, even though he was leaving from their midst, that he would be with them. He promised the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, would be with them.

And through the Holy Spirit also Christ remains in the midst of God's children and he is found here today in God's kingdom where that blood of Christ is freely preached and the Holy Spirit preaches and

In this way, Christ is yet present with his own. The body of Christ is here on earth. Christ is found in his congregation. The connection of God's congregation and Christ were also spoken of, and it was a Voice of Zion article that was taking portions of

Translated from the book, Christ is the Same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. And the portion that I thought tied very closely also to this topic here today was the portion that speaks of the place to care for faith and mutual fellowship. The members of the Christian congregation are joined together in Christ.

The most familiar image of this is likely Jesus' parable of the vine. I am the true vine and my father is the husband. If the living connection to Jesus is broken, the branch will dry and God will cut it off the tree. In that case, the connection to God is severed as well.

Jesus also taught about this matter in his farewell speech. I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. The unity of the saints is unity of the Spirit and love. But above all, it is the fellowship with Christ. Paul describes the congregation as the body of Christ, the head

Of which is Christ himself. He holds the body together. A person cannot have a true relationship with God without the work of the Holy Spirit and the congregation. Paul compared the relationship between Christ and the congregation to that of a man and woman in marriage. The connection is inseparable.

I'd pause here in my thoughts also, too, of how I remember years ago, one brother had given a Bible class presentation, or maybe it was a discussion, I don't remember the exact place, but he was speaking of that picture that we have of the marriage between man and woman and how

Two become one. They're joined and they're inseparable. So much so that it's difficult for us often to say one spouse, someone that's close to us, that we think of them together as one. It's often difficult to even separate or say their names separately. Like children, when they're going to someone's home,

Those two are, the couple is spoken as one. Their names come together. It's difficult for us to even separate them so closely. In marriage also, this picture is when two are married

And join and become one. So also that picture that Jesus gave of Christ in the congregation. The connection is inseparable. For that reason, a Christian cannot believe differently than what the holy mutual congregation teaches. When Christ, the way, the truth, and the life is in his congregation, through his spirit,

The congregation endeavors in one faith, one doctrine, and hope. As a living congregation of God, it clings to the word of God and Christ's gospel of forgiveness. Faith is cared for in the congregation. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it. Or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.

According to Christian doctrine, a Christian must diligently use God's word and the Lord's holy supper, prayer, and mutual Christian fellowship in order to be strengthened and remain in faith. These were a central part of the early congregation in Acts 2.42.

Christian's life together also includes encouraging one another with words of correction, rebuke, and instruction. Paul exhorted, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feeble-minded, support the weak, be patient towards all men. When I think of this parable that Jesus gave also

He spoke of that pruning. There's those that are dead that are separated. They're no longer connected to Christ. And they're cast, the dead branches are cut off and cast into a fire. But the ones that are not bearing

That are bearing fruit, they're pruned or they're cared for, they're tended to. In this way, the fellowship of God's kingdom and as brothers and sisters in Christ, we care for one another. We receive that love and that instruction and then

Much fruit, Jesus says there, much fruit comes from that. And it's not fruit that comes from our own efforts, but it's only through that connection, which is Christ. The mind of a Christian and the atmosphere of grace flow from the fellowship of love effected by God.

The righteousness God gives as a gift results in the fruit of submitting to God's love. It consists of compassion towards oneself and others as well as supporting and caring for one another in love. The intention of loving instructions is not to demand but to encourage.

And help God's child in his or her battle against the power of sin. The fruits of living faith in those branches which also don't have fruit, any fruit. In Galatians 5, 22,

But of the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such there is no law. The parable describes how God takes care of us in his congregation. Jesus spoke to his disciples, Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

God's living word cleanses us through the power of the gospel. Sins are washed away, and we can remain as living branches in Christ Jesus. All who abide in him bring forth much fruit. Fruits, they come from the Lord Jesus, not from the goodness of man. The first and greatest fruit of the Spirit is love. It is the result of God's love towards us.

Herein is love, not that we love God, but that he loved us, and he sent his Son to be the propitiator for our sins. Behold, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1 John 4, 10 and 11. The fruits of love affects in us a love towards others.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit also cause a desire to battle against the enticements of sin. Paul exhorts, walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. So you cannot do the things that you would.

And they that are Christ have crucified the flesh with the afflictions and lusts. A child of God wishes to preserve faith and a clean conscience by caring for sin. When we fall into sin, the Holy Spirit gives us power to also confess our sins and believe them forgiven. In the name and blood of Jesus.

Oh how precious it is when a believing escort preaches that gospel message to us and we can personally believe it. In this way God promises, in this way God prunes the living branches and the branches bear abundant fruit. God is patient.

Also came to mind the parable of the fig tree that is spoken of in Luke. Jesus, he spoke also this parable. A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came and he sought fruit thereon, and he found none. Then said he to the dresser of the vineyard,

Behold, these three years I have come, seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none. Cut it down. Why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto them, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it and dung it. And if it bear fruit, well, and if not,

Then after that, thou shalt cut it down. This parable of the fig tree, if I understand correctly, shows so preciously that patience also that God has. He has allowed time

So that also that fig tree could have a chance to bring forth good fruits. We could say fruits of repentance. Those who have those branches which have become dry and withered and are not bearing fruit.

And so the ground around it was dug up and it was fertilized with that dung or manure so that it would have a chance to again be nourished from that preparation or that care that is given by the one who is caring for that vine. Still hopeful that it would bring forth fruit

So this shows God's patience and love, and it's often different from that which man would set a limit or a time when it is. But it is God's, it is the work of God, that patience that he would have, but also there comes that time where

In the parable it says, and if it doesn't bear fruit, it will be purged and cast into the fire, those dead and dry branches. But I also was thinking in this lesson of how that dung, it's that manure or that, we could say the filth of the

Waste, but yet it's from there that comes that hope and the nutrition that would come for that plant that it could survive. We see that same picture of Christ too, how when he came as a lowly servant,

The lowest form so that even the weakest one could be nourished and also receive, be partakers of Christ. That picture that we have of Christ in that lowly form as a servant to care for his children and all who repent and believe.

Even the weakest branches are supported. They may receive life from the preparation in the dung or the manure that is there. God is not patient forever. There is also a time when the fruitless branches are cut down, cast into a fire. It is necessary that we remain attached to the true vine, our Lord Jesus. We receive living water

I think of that picture also that Jesus gave to the woman at the well. He spoke that she could partake of that water of life that he could give and she would no longer thirst. That she would receive a hope of eternal life, everlasting life. Think of a vine to it.

Receives moisture and water. And this connection came to mind also where Jesus says, but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst. But the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. So also in this parable, the same connection is

When we're connected to Christ, that Christ then provides that water that gives a well of springing water and also provides that way or hope of everlasting life. We have hope of heaven when we

We can believe our sins forgiven and we can hear that gospel and we are cared for in the perfect way that God has prepared through his congregation and through Christ here on earth. It is my prayer and it is our prayer that we would remain attached to that true vine and we would receive nourishment for our undying soul one day.

Reach our heavenly home. It is certainly my prayer to remain as a child of God and to hear and to place that trust that God has provided also this and those fruits of faith that come from

God's children and that the fruits of living faith that comes from a child of God comes from Christ and it has also came to mind how those fruits are not even seen or known from ourselves. They're a work of God and our brothers and sisters in faith, they

Cherish and can see those gifts, but we are so awful in that parable when, I think it was the parable when at the end Jesus said on the last day when those came before Jesus and he said that, come unto me, blessed of my Father, and spoke of the fruits of their life and they answered that, when have we done such?

They didn't come from themselves to remember those gifts, but they were fruits of living faith, and they were not fruits of self-righteousness from one's self. But that was what I had prepared, and I also come feeling so lacking in preparation in these things, and doubting also,

I need to hear that gospel and I also believe my many sins and doubts forgiven. I would also preach that same gospel to you. You may uplift your heart and believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. We've sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. This way we stay connected

To Christ, that blood Jesus flows also to us personally. We can believe it for ourself and believe it personally that our sins are washed and cleansed in the blood of Jesus. So at the end, I thought we would sing a song number and it'll find it again.

Song number 185 before we begin the discussion.

[Hymn sung (Song 185); lyrics not transcribed]

Okay, good morning. Good speech, everyone. Thank you, Keith, for presenting the topic. There's lots of food for thought in those parables used in that presentation. And it's nice that so many were able to be here, or are able to be here. I myself

At the beginning of this discussion together I find myself in need of the gospel that can I believe my lightest doubts and sins. This time that we are living is at the time that many have pondered

Our situation and we have gathered here. Sometimes some have asked what do you think will take place at the meeting and I've had to say that I don't know. But I trust and believe that

God knows what needs to be said. And he is with us through his spirit. Jesus has promised to be where God's children gather in his name. And so at the beginning of this discussion time, I want to encourage you all that be free. Speak what is on your heart and mind.

God does his work through his kingdom, through his children. Imperfect though we are, the work is God's work, and we can trust that whatever God's will is, he will make it known to us this afternoon. So I open the floor here for discussion, comments. Raise your hand

We will get you the mic. I don't have a piece of paper here, so I can't write down the order of your names, but I'll try the best I can, unless I get a piece of paper and a pen. But be free to express those thoughts that you have, and we trust that God will guide our discussion.

Okay, in the back, Gary Lehtola. In this text that was presented in the third verse, it says, you are clean because of the word that I have spoken unto you.

So that is talking about cleansing, cleansing through the word. In Acts 15, there it's mentioned how our hearts are purified by faith. In 1 John 5, I'll briefly go through verses 1 through 8 here.

And assuming that this John is the same author of the Gospel of John, which the introduction came from, so it's not surprising that some of the same items come up in this text. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. So there we're emphasizing faith again. And everyone who loves the Father

Loves his child as well. This is how we know that we are the children of God, by loving God. And again, we can go back to the text that was used actually a little beyond it, John 15, 9, to see a reference to that. By loving God and carrying out his commands. We can see John 15, 10 on that one.

Let's see if I can find John 15, 10 here. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love.

In fact, this love for God to keep his commandments and his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. So again, returning back to faith there. Faith in Christ.

And his works is where our victory is. Who is that that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. And this is the one who came by the water and blood. Now we're talking about cleansing again, so now they're using the terms water and blood. But right after that, they see Jesus Christ. So this is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ. He did not come by water alone, but by water and blood.

And it is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. So now we see here that the Word, which is Christ, and the Spirit, these are not in contradiction with each other. Okay. So here it says that the Spirit testifies, and the Spirit is truth.

In John 17, 17, it says, that's in the high priestly prayer, it says, sanctify them in the truth, for the word is truth. Now this continues here, for these three are they that testify, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement.

Kevin Moll, you're on. Yeah, I guess I just thought I would share a few thoughts that I had during the presentation. I'm thinking back to my own youth.

The time, the era that I grew up in, I was born in 1972, so I was raised shortly after the heresy, the last heresy. And growing up, I felt the joy and experienced the many fruits, I think, of God's kingdom. And I was thinking how at that time,

Perhaps before I was born, before that heresy, there were many that were in leniency and how God had separated them. And then there was this time of great fruits. I think many of the things I think back to a beginning

Kind of a new beginning of the organization of the LLC and much work and joy and a time of much visiting and happiness. That's the experience of my growing up and thinking how even gardening or this example,

The master of the vineyard separating those dry or dead fruits or branches off of the vine tree and how in gardening when you take care of a tomato plant or a garden you weed away those things that would steal away energy or the

The congregation, they are one, that Jesus is in his congregation. And like we heard how this gospel, the word of God is preached freely and that message of God's word is this, that we can believe, that we can put away sin and this gives faith.

How precious this is that we have God's kingdom and we're attached to it. Derek Mattila. Yeah, if you could say your name and congregation for those online and also for those of us here. Some of us don't know what congregation you're from. Derek Mattila from Williston.

First, I'd like to say thank you to Keith for preparing this, and my heart said amen to his presentation. But I thought of a happening in my life that I've shared in our home congregation there before, but I think it does show how this vine, when we picture this vine, it's full of life and vibrant and beautiful.

In God's congregation, but those many years ago, my cousin and myself, we traveled out east. At the time, I didn't know anybody out east except for Mark Aho. I had met confirmation, but so we traveled out east and had a wonderful time there. On the way home,

We were passing through Detroit, it was about two o'clock in the morning, and we didn't know anybody there, but we happened to find the address of a believing house that's there, and we showed up at their door at two o'clock in the morning, and I started rapping on the door, and the man of the house comes to the door looking a bit disheveled and tired, and I said the first thing

Which came to my mind, which was God's peace. And he didn't know me, I didn't know him, but he greeted me back and he said, well, those are the magic words, come on in. And those are the magic words with that simple greeting. We assure each other that we do have that peace of God in our hearts.

And that we're in the fellowship of God's congregation here on earth. And now for myself, my hope and prayer is that I would always be in the love and care of God's congregation here. And I would like to hear that gospel also. Can you bless me? Steve Kallinen.

As Steve Kallinen from Monticello congregation, I very much enjoyed the presentation. I thought it spoke of such love of God for mankind who carries such portion of flesh that is so prone to sin to err to stray. The picture that was painted

Of the love of the Heavenly Father through his Son and of the blood that flows in his congregation from heart to heart created such a picture of life, of hope, of peace. And one comment that was made during the presentation or maybe was on the screen when it said that the

Congregation cares for faith. I think each one of us could acknowledge how much God has cared for us, how much God has helped us to preserve faith to this day. And when we continue to have such a desire in our heart to care for sin that so often besets,

God has given into our heart, even to this day, that peace and joy of a child of God. But I also had this question. Why would someone not want to drink from the wells of salvation? We think of the abundance of services in God's kingdom.

The proximity to every one of us with travel and ability to get to services. We think of the priority of life that should be preserving faith and good conscience. And yet, that question came to me that why wouldn't someone come to the hearing of God's word, come to drink from the wells of salvation that God has

So abundantly caused to flow in his congregation. And it created that picture from the presentation of the branches that wither and dry and eventually are burned. Faith has been lost. They have cut off themselves from the kingdom of God. Faith has died. There is no longer the eyesight of faith.

But the eyes have been blinded, do not see any longer the beauty of God's kingdom. And therefore, there isn't that same desire to come, to enjoy the unity, to enjoy the fellowship, to be at the feet of Jesus, to be fed with the crumbs of grace from the rich man's table. Brothers and sisters, we are so fortunate

If God just keeps in our heart that simplicity of faith, even that comprehension that we know so little, that we need for this day to learn the ABCs of faith. We need for this day to put sin away and be able to preserve that little flicker of faith even in my heart. Certainly enjoy the presentation and the

Opportunity to be here together with you here in this beautiful kingdom where is grace and a truth. Where we enjoy as the presentation touched on the fellowship of those who have in their heart the one-mindedness of love, the unity of the spirit that answers in our heart of one understanding.

That message that was just touched on, even the greeting of God's peace, when there is that unity of faith and understanding. It's like the Spirit has given life when we also use those words to a dear tribal friend in faith. And yet to those on the outside of God's kingdom, it does not have that message of life. In fact, God instructs that we would not greet those who would be of a different spirit

For a different place in this world, other than in his kingdom, endeavoring and desiring to live by faith. I ask you if you can forgive me for my many sins and my doubts.

Derek alluded to something that some have asked, and I've had some discussion more recently on this greeting of God's peace. I haven't really known how to answer the question to others, but I'll just say how I have felt sometimes more recently. We've had these discussions about differences of faith

And there's been some acknowledgement of differences of how we believe. And I have felt, I don't really know how to say this, uneasy or maybe even when I wanted to agree with God's peace and when I have sometimes I've felt in my

We can all have wrong understandings, but when we are insistent on our wrong understandings, then there comes this division, and it doesn't seem like there's peace between

Any longer, and so this is just my question maybe for this discussion. How do you brothers and sisters feel on this matter? Ron Simonson. A couple of things.

I'm sure most of you brothers know that my eyesight isn't very good, and many people want to greet me, and I just love to hear that greeting from believers. But if you could give your name at the same time so that I know who I'm talking to, that would really be good for me.

Recently, we were at a funeral a week ago, I guess it was, to a dear sister who has been in the love of believers for many, many years, actually since 1973, or, well, I should say before that, because she was believing at the time of that last heresy.

Her funeral was in Cokato and we were at the funeral Friday night and there were many, many people there at the funeral and it was a good place to be. But I had many people greet me, many of whom I knew by name.

Who I did not think were believing the same way I was. But I had a feeling, I don't know, and maybe this is completely wrong, but I had a feeling that it was not a feeling of joy.

Many of those people who were greeting me, I know that they were not believing the same way. And I greeted many of them back, and I just did not feel in my heart that I was doing the right thing.

But I guess I have that same question that Kurt was just asking. What is the... What do we want to do? I know after that heresy in 1973, those who entered that heresy, we did not greet them anymore. And I had an incident at our...

I think it must have been our 50th wedding anniversary, maybe it was our 60th wedding anniversary, that I invited to our wedding or our anniversary occasion a man who stood for me in my wedding and his wife, and it was good to see them there.

But after the wedding ceremony and after we were having lunch together and he said, I would like to greet you with God's peace. And I said, dear friend, I cannot greet you with God's peace. And he said, well, he says, I've done a lot of studying of Laestadians and

And he says, there are many different groups of Laestadians, but they are all the same. The greeting of God's peace is still the same. And I said, well, as believers, I cannot greet you because we are not believing the same way.

And I'm just wondering, and as Kurt says, what is the thoughts of you dear brothers here that are here this morning and today? What are your thoughts on the greeting of God's peace to those who are no longer believing the same way that we are?

And I'd like to hear some discussion on that. Am I all messed up or have a wrong understanding?

I agree with those who are with us but no longer seem to be believing the same way we are. What should we be doing? Am I even asking the right question? Tell me if I'm not even asking the right question. It's been very, very confusing and many times very...

A feeling of very... A feeling of very... How would I say that? Of...

Of leaving me very troubled in my heart. I'd like to hear some discussion. If anybody has a discussion or any ideas or thoughts on that, I'd like to hear that. And I'd like to also believe my sins forgiven. Can I believe my sins forgiven? Brian Johnson is next.

Yeah, Ron, you've asked the right questions. This has been my concern, and this has been actually my thought coming here today, hoping that we could have this discussion about to greet or not to greet, because I've been concerned about this also. I know a while back it came up in the Elk River board. It wasn't on a planned agenda, but it just came up on the site discussion about greeting

We discussed that on the board level, but on a personal level for me, this has been happening, I've been thinking about this also, like, oh man, these greetings. For those who seem to be not, we don't seem to be on the right step or enjoying the same spirit,

Something's different between us. Well, I guess I'll just keep greeting. In that sense, I felt that, well, it's to me kind of like a string of hope or something like that. That's how my initial thought was. But when you think of greeting, what is it? It's, you're asking a question. God's peace.

How are your matters, dear brother and sister? Are we of the same faith? Are we of the same spirit? Do you have the peace of God since we've met last? That's my understanding of the greeting. And we have the desire to greet one another as believing brothers and sisters. It feels good to say God's peace and receive that, that we are of the same faith. We are the unity of the same spirit. Recently, I've been kind of embroiled in this

This situation where I was visiting in a home and there were those who I felt were striving as I am on the same path and those in that home were not. They were on another path. Well, when the discussion ended and the time to leave, those who were leaving did not greet

Some of those who were in the household and those who did not get greeted, openly acknowledged, so you're not greeting me now. Others greet me. So they left, I accompanied them outside and they felt bad. I said, well, you know, that was your decision and that's how you feel. I went back into the house and we had a discussion with those who did not get greeted. And we discussed this issue and I said, well, that was,

That was their decision. That's how they see it. I said, to me, right now, this is a personal decision. That's how I understand it. And I told those people in that house, I said, well, I'll continue greeting as long as I see that the person has not denied their faith or they're in a wrong faith

Definitely if they're a heretic, the Bible certainly says, do not greet a heretic, as Ron said. And then to me, like, you know, a heresy comes and becomes, to my understanding, like a congregational issue, as right now it's kind of like a personal issue, I see it as. But maybe it's deeper, maybe it's more broad than that.

But then, so, recently I received texts of sermons, one from here in America, recently, a brother spoke about love, and then he went on to say, so we acknowledge each other with love, and one way to acknowledge that is to greet one another. We should not withhold the greetings from a person

Who are we to determine if they are correctly believing? Something to that matter. Who are we to determine? We cannot determine that as individuals. We'll let God's love reveal that and whatnot. Personally for me, I agreed with this whole sermon up until that point that we as individuals cannot determine about another person if we should greet them or not.

I don't know, I don't necessarily agree with that point. And then I received from another person a text of that same sermon in that same section. And then also from a sermon in Finland where the same kind of issue came up about greeting. It's not that if we don't greet them, we're condemning them. But it's, as I discussed this morning when I came in here,

With some brothers up there at the entrance is that it's actually an act of love if we don't greet them, if we feel they are not of the same faith, that we're not believing the same way. And so it is a very sensitive topic we're talking about.

I just received another text recently, a piece of paper that someone took a photo of it. It's talking about greeting or not greeting, spiritual adultery, all kinds of things like that, which to me, just looking at the piece of paper and just briefly looking at it, I agree with it, but the person who sent it to me said, whoever wrote that needs to repent. So it's like a lot going on right now, and I don't know if I've clarified or...

It made the waters more murky, but it is an issue. It feels that it's God's time that we discuss this this morning, and I'm glad it's been brought up. And can I get a belief? We believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name. Okay, next on the list is John Lehtola, and then we're gonna go online to Don Lahti.

This is Ron again. I took the mic from Brother Brian, but I was thinking back to 1973 and there was a happening in 1973 that after that happening believers no longer greeted those who entered into heresy with God's peace and that

And that happening was that letter that the mission board sent to all the congregations that they were no longer going to call brothers from Finland to have services in their congregations. And those congregations who didn't agree with that no longer greeted those who were

Who were in that heresy or who went away in that heresy. So just a thought, you know, this happened many, many, many years ago. And the believers who were left were very, very happy, I would say, over that joy and freedom that was left

In the congregations that did not go with that heresy. And that dear sister that I mentioned earlier, whose funeral we were at, they were one of the, that couple was one of the, I would say, the places where believers were all welcome to come

And sing and discuss the way and the journey. And so the testimony for that dear sister was very, very good. And even up until the time that she died, as far as I know, all the believers were looking at her as being one of us. I guess that's all. Okay, John Lehtola.

Brian Johnson actually alluded to or referred to all the points I'm going to be touching on. And I also received a photocopy of a document of questions and answers regarding the topic of greeting, which was posted in the Kesty Square at the Brainerd Retirement Home. And I'll just read the last question and answer.

If we do not greet those who have been deceived in our time, are we creating a heresy? And the answer, it is not the intent of the believers to force anyone out of God's kingdom. Rather, our prayer is that those who have been deceived and have erred would repent by continuing to greet those

Who have been battling against God's kingdom or against the LLC, the local boards, speakers, and many individuals, according to the teaching of the former believers and according to God's holy word, it would be sin upon the conscience of believers. In other words, to continue greeting them.

So when they realize that the other believers cannot greet them with God's peace, it is our hope and prayer that they would realize that they are outside of God's kingdom. So that is the first quote. Brian also alluded to this. I actually sent it to him. It's a sermon excerpt from

Tom Stewart in Seattle that he kept on October 31st of this year, so just a couple of weeks ago. He was speaking on 1 John chapter 4, verses 7 through 19, talking about God's love. And through the love of Christ, this is Jon Stewart, we want to show love. Tom Stewart, sorry.

Oftentimes that love is a good reminder with a simple greeting of God's peace. I would say that not one of us on our own, either here in Seattle or anywhere else, would make a decision that I am not going to greet so-and-so unless we know that they are in unbelief. We can't decide.

That this person seems to have a different view from me. So, as a result, I'm not going to greet them anymore. That is not right. That is not for an individual to decide. The reality is so. I could be the one that is messed up and not the other person that I refuse to greet.

So we wait for God to show his love to reveal these things in our time. That is what we pray for, even with the situations that we face in God's kingdom today. And this is not without reward. The next excerpt I have is from Tapani Kinnunen, who lives in Kouvola, Finland.

He's on the SRK board, and he was given a presentation on the church law of Christ, and it was in Pornainen, which is in the Helsinki area. And at the end of the presentation, he talks about the key of binding. The keys of binding are given to the kingdom of God. What you forgive on earth is forgiven in heaven.

Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven. These keys of binding are not meant to mean that when you or I meet a dear brother or sister and we have a different understanding, that I will bind, or in other words, I will not greet that person in that conversation and then myself consider them as an unbeliever. No.

But these keys of binding have been given to the congregation. When such a person is in fault and error and does not want to humble himself to repentance, then that person is rebuked. So it is a matter for the church or the congregation and not for the individual child of God to bind a person or to decide whether to greet that person or not.

We as an individual cannot sit in the seat of judgment. We do not have that ability to see into another person's heart. I'm not certain binding and greeting are one and the same. But if we could go online to Don Lahti.

This is Don Lahti from Brainerd. Am I coming through? Can you hear me? Are you hearing me? Yes. Yes, we are. Okay. I'm glad to have been listening to this entire presentation this morning. I think Keith Moll did an excellent job

And I don't want to give him the credit because I believe that he was prompted by the Holy Spirit. But what he spoke sure answered to my spirit. And even those songs that he chose to be sung, he touched my heart. And I also agree with what Steve Kallinen spoke earlier and so on.

But I am so glad that this topic of greeting has surfaced here at this meeting. It has been a topic of confusion for a longer time amongst the believers. And when we look back of happenings in the past,

For instance, going back to the Kirkkokunta heresy, Arthur Heideman, already before the heresy took place, would not greet those people that were of a different mind, a different spirit. That is documented in a book, I think it's by someone by the name of Mäenpää. And

We know that the Kirkkokunta heresy, at least to my knowledge, from what I can remember, even though I was born at the time of the heresy, but I lived with my grandparents and there was much, much discussion in the years ensuing that heresy. There was no declaration of a heresy that I'm aware of. Different congregations

Separated as the word spread around. I believe in Calumet the heresy took place in 1928 or 1929 and I know in Pelkie it took place in around 1930 or 31 because of the church in 1932 which was the year I was born. Anyway,

Then many, many other congregations I could name, many of them including Chassell, Michigan, and some in Upper Michigan. It took many years before they separated. And the last one, which I was kind of shocked to hear just in the last few months, was Wolf Lake didn't separate until 1945. Well, anyway, that being said,

I have read, I can't remember it word for word, but in a book by Heikki Jussila, Grace of the Caller, where he says there are two buildings next to each other with a thin wall in between. And he states something to this effect, that in the one the Holy Spirit dwells,

And I mentioned this at one meeting some years ago, and Jouko Haapsaari commented on that and said, from only one house is a door to heaven, and not from the other. Even though you might see the understandings of many doctoral matters and so on are the same, but there was a different spirit.

In the November 2020 issue of The Voice of Zion, which was a translation by Paul Waaraniemi, taken from Ari-Pekka Palola's book, a history book, which he has written, which I have a copy in Finnish. This was taken from there, and it also appeared in the Finnish American Reporter, which is published in Hancock, Michigan.

It states in this way, and it's in the November 2020 issue of The Voice of Zion also, that a person who teaches correctly can be a heretic if he belongs to the other group that opposes us. Then there's another incident from 1972 that was a year before the heresy. I remember Lenna Anttila, who was your

At that time, [the called speaker] by the Calumet Mission, who ended up leaving early because of the anger towards him. But he was in Toronto, if I recall correctly, and he got a call from Walter Torola that he should go and speak in L'Anse, Michigan, with Usko Petäistö. Usko Petäistö's matters were, at that time,

In a caretaking mode, he was not in the love of the believers, but, of course, the Torola people kept him as a believer. So he was so disturbed by it, he called the SRK office, and I think he talked to Einari Lepistö and Eino Vaherjoki, and they agreed that he should not have to go with Usko Petäistö in L'Anse, Michigan.

So he calls Walter Torola, and Walter says, and he told Walter he can't. Walter says, why? Well, trying to give the English translation of it, you could use different words, but he says, better and stronger or more noble men than I had gone to preach with heretics have gotten lost in faith. So he called [Usko Petäistö] already a heretic.

Before the 1973 heresy even occurred. And there have been many, many discussions on this. In fact, last spring at Stony Lake Camp, the senior camp, a discussion on this came up and also in the fall at the Hasscib Lake senior camp.

I understand also that the matter was discussed here in Brainerd in May or June, I believe. I was not here at the time because I was in Colorado at my grandson's wedding. But as all of those three discussions I understand, and of course I witnessed the ones in Stony and Hasscib, the feeling amongst the people was that

If we have talked to the people personally, and we are 180 degrees apart in our understanding of faith and how we believe, or if they have spoken openly at meetings condemning, so to speak, God's kingdom, whether they have spoken against God's kingdom,

The feeling was that how can we in good conscience meet such people? And each morning after that discussion, a certain woman mentioned that that discussion last evening was the highlight of the camp because there had been so much confusion about the greeting issue

And she also agreed that if we find that we are of a different spirit when we discuss matters with these people, they definitely cannot be believing like we are believing.

How can we in good conscience greet them? So this is my thought on the matter. Perhaps I may be wrong, and if I am, I need to be corrected, but this is how I feel, and this is how I would say that there are a lot of believers that are of the same understanding.

But I would like to hear some other comments even from this meeting. But even as I speak and I know that my years are waning towards the end and I know that I do not have too long, but yet I want to be in the love and unity of the believers and remain in this one kingdom

And not be separated and battle against it. But many times I feel my own sinfulness, my own trials, my own temptations, that can I yet believe all my sins and temptations? Forgive me. We'll leave all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, in Christ's name. Okay, so this is the order of what we have on the list now. Keith Moll, Nick Ylitalo, Walt Lampi, Keith Waaraniemi,

Zach Quila, Jere Glynn, Allen Pirness, and Josh Byman. And then also for those of you online, I'm not certain what your name is. Those of you online, if you need to take a speaking turn, Bob Niemela's number is [phone number omitted].

[phone number omitted] I'll give that after the next speech, too, in case you don't have a pen now, but we'll go to Keith Moll. Keith Moll from Monticello. My thoughts, and of course I wish to be corrected if I would speak incorrectly or wrong, but the greeting of God's peace is such a

A treasure and a blessing when we have unity of spirit and we see another child of God and we know through the fruits of faith that they're believing the same way as us. And how reassuring it is to greet them with God's peace. Joy fills our heart. We believe we're in unity of spirit. And so then when

There are discussions or when we don't have that understanding or confidence or maybe we question or trouble that do we believe the same? It's difficult then to greet in unity of spirit and greet with God's peace.

I don't know how good it would be if at that time we were able to, instead of if we're troubled, that we would ask, can I greet you? Do we believe the same? Is there that mutual understanding? Fruits of faith, I'm troubled that we don't see the same. And it could then discuss matters of faith

And if we are in need of correction, we can be corrected with the prayer that God would even open to those conditions. I say this with so much weakness because I'm so lacking to even discuss

Matters of faith and weakness can be troubling as a topic, but I thought that it would be good if we can't say with unity of spirit that we have God's peace, that we could ask that. Do we believe the same and discuss those matters?

But for my blackness, can I also hear the gospel? We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name. Okay, we're going to Nick Ylitalo. Bob's number is [phone number omitted]. That's for those online. And I'm going to make a correction to the, I thought it was Aquila, but

Nate said it's Antti Pentikäinen. So you would be after Keith Waaraniemi. Nick Ylitalo from Menahga Congregation. In the beginning, I'd like to ask if I can hear the gospel for all my sins. In Jesus' name, precious blood. I guess at the beginning, I'd say amen to Keith's presentation and

And found it to be encouraging and warm. But also as we were listening to the presentation, I had a very, very sobering feeling with it too. Just acknowledging the situation that we've been dealing with now for many years.

In God's kingdom and how I remember it was 10 years ago today that I first remember being here at the MBMAC meeting and there being open differences of understanding and spirit and how today when we come, when we ask ourselves has the situation improved

Or not, it feels like it hasn't and if anything that the lines of division and difference have been more clearly drawn through the last meetings and seemingly with each meeting.

It becomes more clear that there are differences and that there isn't unity. And in Keith's presentation, he touched on a scripture portion that's been on my mind since I've heard it related to in recent times where Jesus said that he must go before the Comforter can come.

And I've thought of that, of how, in the Old Testament times, God spoke directly to the believers, and then, of course, when Christ walked here on this earth, he spoke directly to the believers. And then, when he died, he, as if, passed the baton to the Comforter, to the Holy Spirit, in terms of how do we communicate

With God. And in our time, the voice of the Spirit is our communication with God. And we hear that comforter that he promised he would send speaking here at these meetings. Even though individually none of us have the answers, but we know that voice.

And we know when our spirit says amen to that voice. And I have to say in these recent meetings, there's also been many voices that may give me the shivers or that even sometimes if what's said isn't wrong, it doesn't answer.

Even already today we've heard a couple of those how, a couple or some of those who are, we would say, not in unity with, I would say, God's kingdom. Those, the majority here in North America, believers, and how those speeches oftentimes come

With their defenses and so on that don't answer to how we believe. And so then we consider the situation. I remember at the Monticello meeting it was mentioned that in Minneapolis a couple years ago when

When those believers had to leave, it was clearly stated, at least by one, that it was a spiritual division. It was a spiritual schism there, that they couldn't anymore abide together in the same house there. And so, yeah, I guess I had similar thoughts to the others of, you know, how do we continue when

It seems that I think if each of us are honest with ourselves, we probably know where we stand. Are we in unity with the rest or are we of a different understanding? And so if there isn't that unity, then I've had the same question of how, I haven't stopped greeting personally, I haven't known, but I have to say it's,

When I have greeted recently, it's brought that same internal struggle of, do we share God's peace? Is it a message that we freely share in the joy and unity? So yeah, I think it's something that needs to be discussed. But then even, I guess,

In conjunction with that, if we can no longer greet one another, where are we? I've heard said, and I have to say I can't personally disagree, I don't know, but several who have felt that the heresies already happened, that the division has happened, and we continue on, and maybe there's some official thing that happens that clarifies it, and I'm not saying that

That that is the case, I'm saying. I've heard that and I've wondered that and I've felt that as well. But in these meetings, we've heard so many times the loving call of God's kingdom. And that's what we need to listen to. We have God's written word. But without the Spirit speaking and opening it, it's a dead word.

It's livened by the Spirit, and so to those who aren't in unity, listen. First listen. You certainly can read, but listen to the voice in God's kingdom. And God's Word teaches us that, to hear the voice of the Spirit. In and of ourselves, we cannot interpret the Scriptures as it's written,

The whole world has the written scriptures, and they can form their defenses to how they believe from the scriptures, which is why there's probably hundreds of denominations. And so it seems when some of you come to teach God's kingdom, you have your defenses prepared ahead of time, oftentimes. And we hear them, but we don't hear the comforter there. We don't hear the voice of the Spirit. And I have to say, I don't believe it's in that message.

So the call is still there to turn away from that and return to repentance. God's kingdom is here, but I have to ask the question, how long can we continue these meetings and discussions and even allow these other voices to speak in the kingdom? I don't know the answer, but it's a question that's on my heart.

Okay, Walt Lampi. I feel my weakness cannot hinder me. First, let my sins forgive me.

It's actually a good discussion, but difficult. I think to talk about greeting kind of brings it very close to home. I personally think that it has come to that time that we cannot greet.

They've been one of those people that have had discussions with their friends, and we've had to conclude that we don't believe the same. And so I have not greeted them.

I can say I do avoid greeting some people, but I think that it is true that we can't, we don't have the authority to bind a person, but you have the kingdom of God leading us to that decision.

And I think more specifically when we speak about Wolf Lake and the Minneapolis congregations, it's a question of what is their relationship to them. I had heard some months back, and recently it was verified, and I think we have a Wolf Lake member here today that could perhaps speak to that too.

I've heard that Wolf Lake has had a mutual Bible study with some other group. I'm understanding that it was [unclear] that left some years back. And I believe that to be true because a certain person

Believer had that discussion with a Wolf Lake member who did verify that that is true. So I'm not sure is that a small group, big group, or a medium-sized group that holds that mutual Bible study.

But I believe that that's what we mean when we talk about spiritual fornication. And because of that, I don't see how we could greet the people of Wolf Lake. And recently this week, and I understand that Wolf Lake speakers in Minneapolis, so I have to say that that's where I am.

Spiritual adultery, I think, makes the point. How could we greet those people? How do we consider them still part of the fellowship of God when they join in a spiritual way with some other group?

And I've heard the defense of that is that, well, okay, what's the harm in studying the Bible with some other whoever? But I think it's a great honor. And I think that faith can be denied. One can deny their faith by their actions.

It's true that we can't see it to somebody's heart, but their actions do define how they are in their relationship to God's kingdom and the way that we believe. I think that's what's missing in even a couple speeches that were made today about

About related to God's kingdom and the church law and so forth, we're having this discussion because of the continued urgency of the situation. And I agree with, like Nick spoke, quite clearly, and the question is on our mind is,

How long does this continue? The kind of a situation where people come to our meetings and argue or debate about certain points, but the bigger picture is lost, and that's the picture of God's kingdom and the work of the Holy Spirit in God's kingdom.

So it's not about referring to somebody's presentation that we would not disagree with about the place of binding and so forth. How can we greet those that continue to war against God's kingdom?

I have [a hard time with that], and I don't greet people for that reason. Now, that's where my heart is, there, brothers. And I think that that is where the Holy Spirit is on this matter. Okay, next on the list is Keith Waaraniemi.

Dear brothers and sisters, I take this speech trembling, knowing what serious matters are before us, and also knowing how weak I am in myself, and how close the flesh and blood is, and I ask if I can hear the gospel first. We leave all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, in Christ's name.

I want to warmly say amen to the presentation that our brother Keith has kept. Amen, and it answered to my spirit and was according to God's word. This question of greeting or not greeting has been one that's been with us for a while now, and we've heard

Differing points of view here or many similar points of view and some questions and differing points of view. But we live in a time of difficulty, a time of confusion, a time of prayer and hope that God would open matters to those that are straying.

And that repentance would happen that would take away this question of greeting or not greeting. That's the basic problem. Yes, we're dealing with this question of greeting or not greeting, and I think each one of us has, or many of us have dealt with this and wondered about it, and yet,

Just speaking for myself, I haven't felt like I cannot greet someone. I have wanted to be patient and pray that God would open to those that are straying and would reveal matters. And I have greeted with this prayer and hope that that would happen.

But we see that we continue to go further apart. Even I say, as Walt Lampi said already, that when you consider these kinds of activities that are happening,

Even of a small group, mutual Bible study with those from previous heresies and some sort of fellowship that is starting to develop there. This is not of the spirit. The Bible says, once you have rebuked a heretic once or twice, flee from them. And so nothing good can come from that kind of thing.

It's a different matter if someone is seeking, searching, and wanting to believe their sins forgiven. But this kind of, as I would see it, academic debate, discussion, it just does not feel to me to be according to God's holy word.

Blurs the borders of God's kingdom. And so these are the reasons why some of these questions are coming up. Do we greet or not greet? I think that's what we need to stop to think about, these types of questions. And I think it's okay to be open. Our brother Antti is here.

And is serving Minneapolis along with Darwin Lake this weekend. And it's certainly no secret at all of the fact that the other southern Minnesota congregations have not felt comfortable advertising those services because we have been concerned about the brothers that are serving there. And

I tremble to say that, but this has been said already publicly. And so it is. It's the case. And so that's why these questions of greeting are there, or not greeting. And I think that's what we really have to look at.

And yes, none of us as individuals can make these kinds of across-the-board decisions about greeting when it is not ours to make. But there are situations that I've heard of that believers have visited together and the conversations have been so difficult that neither one have even found God's peace on their mouth

In the end of the visit. So, this is the time that we live. And may God give us wisdom in that and love for one another. Love in the truth and be open before each other and before God. Recently, I visited with a dear brother who asked a question about

When we talk about the different view of God's kingdom, what do we mean? And so I've tried to gather some thoughts together from things that have been said recently and discussions, and I'll try not to spend too much time on that, but I will try. The continent-wide meeting synopsis has these kinds of statements in it

That answer that question. There is a concern that a different understanding on the doctrine of the congregation exists in our midst. The view of the congregation or kingdom has dimmed. The relationship between the Holy Spirit, the congregation, and the written word has become confused.

For some, the emphasis has shifted to knowledge and human reasoning. The grace gift of confession has been diminished by the fear of it becoming a work. The church law of Christ has been misconstrued, thereby restricting open discussion on public matters.

Then the last point was there is concern over fruits that have been apparent that are not fruits of the Spirit, such as bitterness, harsh accusations, deceitfulness, pride, et cetera. And as you all know, there was loving encouragement at the continent-wide meeting in May that we would humble ourselves

And be obedient to the mother, the voice of the congregation of God, or to the mother, the congregation of God, the voice of the Spirit that speaks in the congregation. Now in recent years, we've discussed the question that Keith brought out already in his presentation, the relationship between Christ and the Word. Keith quoted from the Apostle Paul,

How this relationship between Christ and the church is a mystery. And I think it's important that we realize before these large, or before these big matters, big doctrinal questions, that we are small and God's word, God and his word are large.

And we only understand a little bit. We know that Christ is the Word, the Word that became flesh, Christ is the head of the congregation, and we are the body. These are inseparable. And I feel that in recent times, the emphasis on the Word has been private interpretation

Without thought of, it is my understanding, according to the understanding of the Spirit in God's congregation. I don't remember if Keith quoted this or not, but I know he quoted some of Uljas, but I'll quote it anyway.

Juhani Uljas wrote in 2007 at speakers and elders meeting in Finland, when the Holy Spirit governs the congregation, there is not conflict between the teachings of the Bible and the teachings of the congregation. As children of God, we have responsibility when we preach, comfort, instruct, or teach. We have reason to remember the instruction, if any man speak,

Let him speak as the oracles or the very words of God or the words God gives. That little explanatory was my own. So let us cling to the word of God. And I feel like we haven't diverted from the word of God, but the word of God

Is the highest authority for life and for doctrine. And the fact that we begin to quibble over is the word higher than the congregation or is the congregation higher than the word? I think we're going astray in this matter in terms of losing sight of

These things are a paradox or mystery that we can't fully understand. If Christ is the word and is the head of the congregation and we are the body, how can you separate them and why would we want to separate them? They are so inseparably joined together that we cannot do so. Then the doctrine of the congregation. The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead.

And it governs the congregation. We've discussed recently, in recent years, some feel like we are emphasizing the spirit without the word. There's been phrases like, spirit, spirit, spirit. Like that's all we speak about is the spirit. But of course,

The Spirit reveals what is in God's Word and it cannot be otherwise. We cannot separate and decide ourselves that this is the Spirit if it's not according to God's Word. God's Word is the highest authority. But I feel like there are those that avoid speaking of the Holy Spirit and are very willing to speak about Christ

And the Word, but not the Holy Spirit. Jesus said to the congregations of Asia Minor in Revelation, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. And then, if we consider the three persons in the Godhead,

And look at the Athanasian Creed that so beautifully brings it out. In this Trinity, none is before or after another. None is greater or lesser than another. The whole three persons of the Godhead are co-eternal and co-equal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the unity in the Trinity

And the trinity in the unity is to be worshipped. In our Christianity, we have spoken much about the mother since the heresy that is already approaching 50 years ago. And God's word in Galatians

4:26 says, but Jerusalem, which is above, is free, which is the mother of us all. And in other translations, it says Jerusalem, which is from above. So it's the city of God, which is the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from God, the congregation of God upon earth.

Why is there the question, why is this question so important and so prominent in our midst right now? I think one reason is that it was very central in the last heresy, the question of the mother and the mother being unerring.

In the book that Peter Nevala wrote, he spoke about this, or he wrote about this, I should say, and he quoted an article from the Siionin Lähetyslehti in 1937 by Paavo Viljanen. He said, thus we believe, in this faith of ours, we are deeply convinced

That the congregation of God is infallible. As individual members of the congregation of Christ, we commit errors, even fail or even fall. But the congregation of Christ is, as the Apostle says, the ground and pillar of truth. If the congregation of Christ were not inerrant,

Neither could it be the custodian of the eternal gospel, begetter of God's children, nurse and mother. Unfortunately, Walter Torola took a different approach. And he was referring to Isaiah, the prophet who said, who talked about

That a mother may forget, but God will not forget in the 49th chapter of Isaiah. But then Peter writes about it, Peter Nevala, without regard for either the original context or clear scripture. To the contrary, Walter Torola applies the prophet's statements about the natural mothers to God's congregation, the spiritual mother, and says, now quoting Walter,

But even the congregation of God is only a sin-corrupted mother who has a possibility to err from the doctrine of the gospel and lose the spirit of grace. I think this is one of the dangers that we see in our time, that we would slide into the same opinion, same understanding of Walter and those that went into the last heresy.

And then a quote from Harri Vähäjylkkä's presentation of a couple of years ago. The Holy Spirit never teaches contrary to the Word of God, but is totally aligned with it. The Holy Spirit opens this already completed revelation of God, the Holy Scripture.

The Holy Spirit does not teach in many different ways about justification, sin, and the forgiveness of sins, the sacraments, the endeavor, the kingdom of God, or other matters of faith. Neither can we believe in a different way than the holy mutual congregation does, for it is of the same faith, mind, and understanding as Luther has said.

We may have experienced, as Luther has said, that last part was quoting Luther, we may have experienced at services or other gatherings of believers how the Holy Spirit has enlightened and opened the understanding of some matter on the basis of the Word of God. The same work of the Holy Spirit occurred in the time of the apostles at the meeting in Jerusalem.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost in us. The congregation of God is the pillar and ground of truth. It's because Christ dwells in this congregation. And God reveals this truth to us through the Holy Spirit in his word and in his congregation. And then to quote Luther from the bondage of the will,

About the congregation and believing in the congregation, he says, I will say this, we know, because in the creed with which we confess our faith, we say, I believe in a holy, mutual congregation. Therefore, it is impossible for the congregation to err, even

In even the most minor point related to faith. And then, continuing on, in the Apostolic Creed we confess, I believe in the Holy Christian Church. Now this is from Luther. That means I believe that there is no sin, no curse, no evil in the Church of God.

Faith says, I believe that. But if you want to believe your eyes, you will find many shortcomings and offenses in the members of the Holy Church. You see, they succumb to temptation. You see them weak in faith. You see them giving way to anger, envy, and other evil dispositions. How can the Church be holy, you ask?

It is with the Christian church, as it is with the individual Christian, if I examine myself, I find enough unholiness to shock me. But when I look at Christ in me, I find that I am altogether holy. And so it is with the church. And then, I'd like to quote one other thing which I have quoted before,

Which I feel is applicable to this time when we speak about the Spirit. And I feel the avoidance of speaking about the work of the Holy Spirit in some over whom we're concerned. Luther spoke or wrote about the antinomians of his time.

He said, that is what my antinomians too are doing today, who are preaching beautifully, and I cannot but think with real sincerity about Christ's grace, about forgiveness of sin, and whatever else can be said about the doctrine of redemption. But they flee, as it were, the very devil, the consequence that they should tell people

About the third article of sanctification, that is, of the new life in Christ. They think one should not frighten or trouble the people, but always preach comfortingly about grace and forgiveness of sins in Christ, and under no circumstance use these or similar words. And Luther continues, listen,

You want to be a Christian and at the same time remain an adulterer, a whoremonger, a drunken swine, arrogant, covetous, a usurer, envious, vindictive, malicious, etc. Instead they say, listen, you are an adulterer, a whoremonger, a miser,

Or other kind of sinner. If you but believe you are saved and you need not fear the law, Christ has fulfilled it all. So to sum it up here, I feel like these

I'm sure my explanations are weak and I've borrowed many things from various presentations and brothers in these, but I really want to say this to you who are here who are of another mind. Openly, and I hope with love, and the proper kind of Christian concern,

Today, when you hear his voice, harden not your heart. Take the steps of repentance, which God's kingdom is reminding you of, even if you don't understand. Even if you don't understand. I believe this, and I shared with this brother recently, that

In these battles, we are all faulty and sinful. And I don't believe, and I say this first about myself, that God will leave me uncared for in this kingdom. I believe that God cares for all things in his time. And so if you're concerned that there's this law-minded

Group that is practicing who has gone wrong in this governance of the household of God and are controlling things so that we can't discuss doctrine and so forth and causing all kinds of fear in God's kingdom in North America. If you believe that, can you not still humble your heart to repentance and trust that

God will take care of his kingdom. God will take care of his kingdom. He will not leave any of us uncared for if we desire to believe. But we need to hear the voice of the spirit that speaks in the congregation. May God so help. And dear brothers and sisters who may be of another mind, are of another mind in battling,

You are loved in God's kingdom. We care about you. We are concerned about you. We are openly, openly sharing our concerns about you. Not to be harsh, but because we see how serious this way is. Even as one brother recently said who disagrees with me, he says, he said, I so fear a separation.

The matter is very serious today, and it's only cared for through repentance. May God help. And I just, again, ask, feeling weak, sinful, tried, can I believe my sins forgiven? We believe all sins forgiven, in Jesus' name, our precious blood. Okay, the next is [Antti Pentikäinen]. We have five minutes until lunch, and lunch is ready, so.

Not to short anybody's turn, but... If okay, I may stand up because many of you may not know me and start, since some of you might have heard of me, it might be nice of hearing directly from me. But the main reason why I'm asking for the mic is I need to be cared for. I need a lot of caring.

And since I only can come here rare, this is my heart's desire. I wanted to briefly touch on, try to finish in five minutes, a couple of things. And the first thing that came to my mind or which I wanted to address is actually Keith, your final call for repentance and rebuke.

Why is it so hard to hear and accept when we are asked to repent or we're rebuked? I'll just speak of my psalm. In 2016, some of you may remember, I had a previous chance of visiting a speaker's meeting in Toronto, and that must have been Jim Frantti or someone in his speech said that

Sometimes we don't see the value of kingdom in God. And if you don't, ask yourself where you are. And I, at that moment, decided that I accept this as a rebuke for myself. Many of you may not know, I know Jouko knows because he was then in Finland, but we had some battles there.

About some matters of abuse and in those situations, I felt I had dried up. I had used harsh language. I had not always acted according to love and I had not always seen the value of the kingdom of God. So in that moment, I decided that when I will have chance, I will go.

And visit speakers and ask forgiveness for this. And then, by God's grace, you know, I had that chance in the speakers meeting in 2020. And when I visited myself, I had wanted some of those

You know, we had had our time with coming back to me and apologizing for some of the things they had said about me or done. But the interesting thing is that when I went there and I asked for forgiveness, repentance, the same people came. I think there was about 20 people that came.

And we were embracing each other. We were in tears, and I felt the love was rebuilt. So, I just want to echo, Keith, what you were calling, it shouldn't be that hard. We shouldn't make it hard. It's when the love becomes fulfilled, renewed. The second point that came to my mind,

Thank you, Keith, for the presentation. I am in agreement with what you said, and I was just reminded about, it might have been Luther or a sermon that I heard about the pine tree, that it had this unique nature of building new branches through growing roots underground.

And then you see a new tree. But if there is an inexperienced gardener, they might not recognize that this new wine that looks really nice and big is not ready to bear fruit if you cut the root to the old plants who may be looking dry and ugly.

And that we should be careful of cutting that connection because that old tree is Christ. And I recognize in the scripture, Keith, as you pointed, Christ is the God on earth. We may be those inexperienced God on earth. Third point that came to my mind is in Bible, we have this one heresy

That was called Keepers of Doctrine. And the heresy evolved to an extent that they were fighting each other and they were unifying themselves with the enemy when the enemy forces came, that they tried to burn each other's churches and temples so that the heresy was excluded and never be spoken again.

These were the Samaritanians. And so it was a religiously existential threat to deal with them. It was an understanding not to deal with them because of their existential threat. And within the fate of Judaism, you had these layers of purity.

It was part of the practice. You were not allowed to touch someone outside your cycle of purity without having the risk that that impurity becomes part of you. So these layers were very carefully kept. And those keepers of doctrine continued the same practice within their own ranks.

Keith, you briefly touched the story when Jesus met the women at the well. She was a Samaritanian woman. And if you look all these layers of purity, there were no women. Within the Samaritarian community, this was the woman that no one in the Samaritanians didn't want to be seen together with because of what she had done.

Do you think it was a mistake for the Christ to meet her at the Dwell? No. It was immediately after Christ was baptized. He went in the middle of the day, sweating from the heat, to see this woman who was an outcast of an outcast that nobody was allowed to be seen with. And you guys remember what happened.

When Jesus saw and told her her life, her heart opened. And she went and called for other people. And we can read from the scriptures, many believed. This is chapter four in John. In chapter seven, Jesus' brothers don't know who he is. In chapter 20, Thomas says, if I am not allowed to touch your wounds, I will not believe.

But this church was created among those who were the outcast of the outcast. If Jesus was able to do it, brothers and sisters. What did he tell the women? If I give you this water, it will become a living water in you. So, Keith and other brothers, I can only imagine these hard trials you guys have had

I can only imagine how hard it has been. But let me tell you one thing. What the kingdom of God is, they shall transform the valley of weeping in the valley of springs. They shall transform because of that living water that can be shed every place, every day. That is what the kingdom of God exists.

And that is how we survive. So I didn't come here with wisdom or thinking. I have much to say. I just come with the heart's desire. Keith, I accept your rebuke. I'm not afraid to say that I do mistakes. I come here because every time I've come and my family has come, we know gospel is being preached. And it is the word of God.

That carries us to heaven. I came because I need that gospel. And so, brothers and sisters, if you still may, I would like to ask if I can believe you. Leave all sins forgiven in Jesus' name. And please continue to care for me and when needed, rebuke me. Yeah, it's a little bit afternoon. We can continue the discussion.

There's still quite a few names on the list. Where are we gonna sing the meal song? I don't remember what number that is. Following the launch, just so you know where you're at in the list of things, Jeremy Glynn would be next, Allen Pirness, Josh Byman, Sam Roiko, and then there's a few others after that, but that's where we'll start.

434.

Fantastic. Okay, if we could all gather back and we're going to sing song number 153 before we resume our discussion.

[Hymn sung (Song 153); lyrics not transcribed]

Okay, we won't.

We'll continue our discussion from this morning. There's a few names on the list, but before we get into the list, if you're listening online or you are here and you haven't signed in to the meeting, please do so in the back or... I'm not certain how you do that online. Text spam.

Okay, we'll get the number to you. Just for consideration of time and so more people can have a turn to speak here, serve us with their speeches, but if you could try to keep your speeches as condensed as possible, and then also if we could maybe refrain from reading, even though sometimes it's quite helpful,

We trust that God would put words in our mouth to help our discussion. And I only say this just for consideration of time on this afternoon. Okay, the number would be [phone number omitted], and that's Ben's number.

Okay, so the first on our list is Jeremy Glynn, followed by Allen Pirness, Josh Byman, and Sam Roiko. This is Jeremy Glynn from Rockford. Walt Lampi had conveyed the question in my mind, so I'll just reiterate it because I had not heard a response on it, but was really hoping that

Those in Wolf Lake could address this matter of this Bible study with other congregations, in fact, heretic congregations. And if that's the case, if that's true, then could you be free to speak to that? You know, the concern is that how many years ago, when these matters started to become discussed more openly,

There was a, I would say, even going back to the topic of would there be a time that we wouldn't forgive or continual forgiveness or the robes of righteousness. I remember the discussions were always, at least from my perspective, it felt like those trying to change how we understand those matters, the concern was that it was

A position that was dangerous to widen the path of the believer and make more room for the enemy. And that was the concern at that time and it's the concern today. And now when I hear, when we hear that there's joint Bible study sessions with heretic churches, I think it really

Manifest itself clearly that that was the concern at that time and now here this is what's happening is that it really has broadened the way for some and I would hope and pray that those that know of this can correct the I guess the awareness that's out there if that's not right then that's very important to correct those of us that

I've heard that. And if that is accurate, then I would say you're in a stormy, a dangerous place. Okay. Next is Allen Pirness. Yeah, it's Allen Pirness from the Lethbridge congregation. I bring lots of greetings from our board.

To this meeting, I appreciated the discussion this morning, the introduction that was selected when we were deciding what the topic would be for this introduction. I thought it was good, even in our discussions on the mission committee.

That this topic would get approached and it came out in a very nice way because it speaks to us of the nature of God's kingdom in a pictorial sense, the parable of the vine, that it

Kind of reminds each of us our fragile existence or our fragile attachment to the vine and that we can only gain nourishment from the vine. We're not able to, as a leaf, drop to the ground and sustain nourishment by ourself. And Jesus pointed out in that parable of how

He, as the gardener, will not leave that kind of unfruitful growth there to hinder the vine. I've also thought of it in this way that I've heard in speeches in the last several years of how it feels like there's this attempt to broaden the way

With this kind of direct attachment to Christ without his congregation, and that this, I think, feels unfortunate that that kind of understanding would be there, but it's,

I think it's there when there has become an annoyance with God's congregation in that you're not able to see things the way the other believers see them. So then there's an attempt to find a different way. Maybe that's a simplified perception of it, but it's how I've thought of it. But I think we have to be very

Careful and cautious that we don't allow in ourselves this annoyance to take hold in our heart and that it builds up a resentment to God's congregation and that now over the last several years there's been an attempt to care but they've been met with

It's not even penetrating the surface, it seems. My thoughts have gone in this way over recent weeks after reading the synopsis from that October 5th Southern Minnesota meeting. It was very sad to read that because it came from the same

Spirit, if you will, are the same place as those that that letter that got sent out from the new Minneapolis board after so many left their congregation in September of 2020 that it was, well, here we are, those of us who are left, and please send speakers. There was no recognition of what had happened and

It was very troubling to be there. We're left on that same trajectory of progression as we have been on that. The discussion this morning surrounding whether to greet or not to greet, that's a symptom of where we are, dear brothers and sisters.

We've been left here now for the last... It feels like there was something important about that decision that so many had to make in Minneapolis. And we've been left in that for the last year and a couple months.

Patiently and hopefully waiting for fruits of repentance. And there have been none. There's been a solidification of positions on these things. And in that October 5th meeting, there was a new boldness that was brought forward. There were speeches that, reading from the minutes anyway, that equated

Or try to draw some sort of connection to Finland with the Zion in Finland that remains, from what I understand, troubled as well with the situation here. And these kind of attempts that are meant to demonstrate a peacefulness that is not born of the Holy Spirit.

I think it's been laid quite open here where we are. And my fear is that the separation has already happened in God's congregation. And that this, the evidence of these things like the Bible class with those in heresy,

You know, whether to greet or not to greet, that's evidence of this. These aren't the issues that need to be cared for. These are the fruits that need to be recognized that something dreadful has already happened.

And it cannot be restored without repentance. It remains that way. And the congregation has been so consistent. The voice of the Spirit that has come from the many speeches through the many meetings in the many months has been so consistent, so loving, so calm. And yet it remains there even in this meeting that there is

It's still a call to repentance that comes from God's congregation. But we have to, it feels to me that we have to recognize where we are. I feel my own portion, my own sinful portion so closely, and I would even yet ask if you

Brothers and sisters can forgive such a one as I.

Let's see if I can gather my thoughts here. First, I'd like to say that my spirit answered to the presentation as well. Very timely topic and necessary for this point in time in which we're at. I'm thankful that God has allowed

That presentation and these discussions that take place, my heart also answers to many of the speeches that have been given to this point, but also recognize that there have been speeches that have been confusing and hollow and empty. The most recent one, I could be wrong

My heart's desire is to be corrected. If I am, I was left confused and troubled with Antti's speech just prior to lunch. I couldn't follow what was being explained. The understanding that was given concerning the woman at the well

It seemed to be one of this that this woman came with her own pride and knowledge, wishing to accept this rebuke that Christ was giving and looking for acceptance in the kingdom of God. My understanding with that particular instance is that that woman at the well was a grace beggar.

And she understood when Christ began to speak to her that the kingdom of God was at hand. And she saw in herself a sinful person with no good thing. And when this was realized, her heart prompted her to ask Christ to give her that living water of which he speaks.

This is different than that thought that one could stand and accept rebuke with one's own will and one's own desire. Also, I was left troubled by John Lehtola's speech. It seemed to insinuate this, that each one here has come

With their own individualized and personalized idea on how do we move forward. And especially concerning this matter of whether or not we continue to greet. It's true that faith is a personal matter. But we, in and of ourselves, do not have all understanding

And make individual personal decisions as to whether we do this or whether we do that. But what's come before this body that's here today has been humble questions that have been in the minds of believers. Not coming to say this is what we must do because I have decided so. But coming with that question

In the presence of God's congregation, the presence of the Holy Spirit, seeking answers and guidance, that what does the Spirit say unto the churches? We know that the Spirit must be present here, for Jesus has said that where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them also. And how is Jesus present here?

He's present by and through the Holy Spirit. These are difficult questions. Alan mentioned that these are symptoms or byproducts of the issues that we've been dealing with, and I agree, they are. And it seemed to me that this question of whether or not we would continue to greet those that are of different understanding

A different spirit, however we want to feel that is necessary to present it. This question about whether or not we would continue to greet is the tip of the much larger question at how do we continue forward in the same household. These questions and discussions have been happening for some time. And I've thought that in my own life,

My daughter has denied her faith. Sincerely believing from a young child, she's been deceived by the enemy. For several years we've noticed that there's been a pulling away and a battle against the teachings of God's kingdom.

This desire to follow a different path. As the years have gone on, we've had discussions, not daily discussions, but intermittently these discussions would come up. Times were difficult, and we would visit, sometimes hours at a time. Matters were not well, but there was still a glimmer of hope that she desired to believe.

We would end those discussions with the gospel, hoping and praying and trusting that God would continue to carry her and carry each of us. And with each discussion that would happen, it was evident that we were drifting further apart. It's not that much different than these discussions that we've had on a larger scale in God's kingdom. And eventually,

It happened that in a discussion last spring, even though it was evident to my wife and I that the fruits had not been there and she had not been believing for some time, she was able to acknowledge that she does not believe the same way. We continue to dwell in the same temporal household, but we don't dwell in the same heavenly household, the same household of God.

We cannot greet each other and we can no longer share that gospel unless she's able to, by God's grace, realize her condition and be able to accept that loving call of the Savior to put matters away and to repent. That's how simple things are even here today.

Large questions and large discussions, but simple answers and results. We don't have to have all understandings. We know that faith doesn't come by understanding, but understanding will come with faith. We can humble ourselves and put our wrong understandings and misgivings and wherever we're at, those matters away.

God's loving call is still there today, and the gospel would be preached. If not, the question in my mind is, how can we continue forward? Are we in the same household of God, or are we only occupying the same temporal household? All my many failings and worries and doubts, can I hear you in the gospel?

Sam Roiko from Elk River. I also

Really enjoyed the presentation that Brother Keith was given that understanding and wisdom by God to put that together and how preciously he spoke of the doctrine of the congregation. And in many of these

These discussions that we've been referencing for the many years, there's been the accusation or the question that where is the doctrinal difference?

And I think it's become more and more evident as time has come on that the doctrine of the congregation is what's in question. Do we believe that here is the congregation of God, the body of Christ, and that we should be humble and hear what these other individuals, though faulty themselves, are saying? Or can I...

Still cling to my own understanding, which is above that. And if we, when we are disobedient to that voice and cling to our own understanding, then we, like King Saul, have set ourselves as a head taller than the rest of the people. And the end of that pathway is very sorrowful.

When I've thought of the couple of comments that have asked that has that separation already taken place and are we now needing to acknowledge that? I've been reflecting on how over the last years there was this kind of migration from

Well, especially here in the Minnesota area when some who are now members of the Minneapolis congregation left their former home congregations, whether it was Rockford, Monticello, Elk River, or Cokato, to join Minneapolis. And

Of course we've acknowledged that there's freedom to go where you want in that sense. But here in God's kingdom, when there has been this kind of migration, it's always been where one would have left the unity of one congregation that was in unity with the rest of Zion and gone to another congregation.

And remained in that seamless unity. But those that went to Minneapolis left without caring for matters in their own home congregations. Left because, well, comments like, I was not loved there, or I was not understood.

And then joined the Minneapolis congregation where they felt that they found a group that was able to love them as they wanted to be loved. And I guess my thought is that, as we heard in the presentation, that

The congregation of God here on earth is united in the same understanding that if we then act in a way that here in southern Minnesota there are two different groups

One where I am not loved and find unity and then another where I do find unity. And by our actions in joining that other group, we have already separated ourselves from the believers.

And in that chapter in Galatians where we heard Paul write of the fruits of the Spirit, he also speaks of how works of the flesh is this wrath and strife and sedition and heresy. That is, it is a sin when we leave a group

Of believers who are endeavoring in the same faith and love as the other believers and say that we don't believe the same or have little differences in understanding and then join another group. And we see the fruits of that then when

Over those many years, that strife increased in that Minneapolis congregation until that moment that we've remembered took place a year and some months ago, when those who are in the same love and unity as the rest of Zion had to leave. And

There was already this... This matter isn't one that the children of God have been almost just bystanders watching, but there's been a desire to care for matters. Already three years ago when the...

Many in many congregations were concerned with the Speaker Brothers from Wolf Lake and wanted to visit with them before asking them to serve in their congregations. That care was not accepted and resisted. And there was this hardening and digging in and cementing of one's own position.

And then a year or two years later, then when the believers had to leave that Minneapolis congregation, and there was again the desire that we need to visit about these matters, that it seems like it was such a serious matter that we cannot keep sending servants there.

And I guess it's interesting, you know, as was pointed to that time before those many individuals left Minneapolis, there were other servants from southern Minnesota who were serving the Minneapolis congregation on a regular basis, whether it was Bible classes or services. And

We felt that same love and unity with those who had to leave. And when it came time to visit about, that this was a serious matter when those needed to leave, felt they needed to leave for their own soul salvation. And the request was left that the Minneapolis board would arrange a meeting to visit about it.

And last fall, a month and a half later at the MBMAC, there was yet no request to visit. And the plea was again made to let's visit about these. We need to visit about these. These are serious matters. And there was the one comment that they're trying to figure out how to visit about, how to arrange these meetings when

And yet, there was never any desire to visit about these. And then the nationwide meeting was held, where again, the plea was that we need to visit about and care for these matters. And that was silence. And then at the annual meeting, the delegates were troubled by this that

Now Minneapolis felt comfortable calling the brothers from Wolf Lake to serve there and others. And the delegates were from the congregations. The congregations were so troubled they sent their delegates to the annual meeting with the message and the request that on the LLC website we can no longer archive those sermons or have the link to their service broadcasts.

And that we need to visit about these. And each time these decisions were made it was so that it was a temporary pause in this so we could pause and visit about the matter. And

Rather than caring for the matter, we hear accusations such as the one made at the May meeting that the mother is starving her child, rather than this invite that here in these southern Minnesota congregations, God's word is preached and everyone is welcome to come. And the mission committee here in the Midwest area then had sent letters to

Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, that we can't schedule services for you for 2022 until these matters are cared for. And then now, in October, at the Southern Minnesota meeting, many, many speaking turns were kept, and it felt that the voice of the Spirit was being muted. There was...

The voice that came there came to teach from a proud and knowing status to those of us whom are of more feeble understanding than them. There was the knowledge, there was the wisdom, and the voice of the Spirit had nothing to say.

And yet here we are after those many meetings and decisions have been made and yet the plea and the request is that today if you hear his voice, harden not your hearts. God resists the proud but gives his grace to the humble. Here we have the congregation of God present.

There cannot be two separate groups that are both the body of Christ. Christ is not divided. And as we heard in the presentation, God is a patient and loving God. Yet as God reminded in the time of Noah, he said, my spirit will not always strive with man for he is flesh.

And there came that time in Abraham's house when Sarah had to tell Abraham to cast out the bondwoman and her son. God, through his spirit, leads and guides his congregation and

When there is matters to be cared for, if we resist the voice of the spirit and are disobedient, the end is destruction. Eventually, the bondwoman and her son will be cast out. And when that time is, I don't know. But I've thought and I've been pondering

It was many, many years ago when there were comments such that there are storm clouds on the horizon. And I haven't heard those kinds of comments in recent times because it seems that the storm clouds are here and they are overhead. But I trust that even in these stormy times that our Lord and Savior is still here with his children in this vessel.

And it seems as the brothers spoke in Finland in the discussion in 1934 that there are some who have jumped into a different vessel that is more polished and looks a lot better than this vessel of God's kingdom, this tarred ark.

And now they have been drifting so far away that they are no longer able to hear when the voice of the Spirit speaks. But yet, the voice of the Spirit is calling and saying, here is God's kingdom, and here is where the gospel is preached. And Jesus says, by their fruits ye shall know them.

And I feel my own weakness and faults and I know that. I am flesh and blood and sinful and ask, can I believe my own sins forgiven? We believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, in the precious blood. Can you hand it to your right there to Loren? Loren Ylioja from Dunblane. First, I'd like to bring lots of warm greetings from there in Saskatchewan.

Just some brothers on our board there in Dunblane and from the Saskatoon and all the boards, and they remember you all here. I hope I can make some sense. I put up my hands over a couple hours ago, so. When considering the item, I guess, first off, just a few things that sort of struck me or sounded funny was when we consider greeting

Others with God's peace. As we've been taught from a child that we'd want to accept the rebuke that comes to us from other believers or from the congregation. So it seems that if one would be hesitant

To greet me with God's peace, I would want to ask, where am I? Why is this? Not look and find fault in that one that's considering this. The thought that this and binding are a similar thing, I don't think

It's accurate. With the act of binding, in my weak understanding, this is a step that is taken after through one's actions, they have denied their faith, and it's certainly not something that an individual child of God can do.

The thought that we are judging or we're taking someone's faith away or with rebuke or that we don't live under the law, I guess. If we're at the point that rebuke

It feels like the law. It seems, and I hope I can be corrected if I'm wrong here, but if it is indeed the law that is speaking to us, it seems that faith would have already left because the law does not speak to someone

Who is believing or has the Holy Spirit. And often, the reason someone would speak to us, I guess, is our actions and our speech have already, how do I say, have denied our faith, even if we haven't done so verbally. Considering

What John Lehtola was saying, I guess I would call it cherry-picking a certain portion out of a sermon to find that which feeds what I would like to hear. The sermons

Any sentence or even any sermon I don't think should be considered on its own, but rather in context with or from the sermons that we are hearing across Zion. We have the gift now with the broadcasts, we're able to listen

To sermons coming from each and every congregation and the voice remains the same. Each speaker is serving with his own gifts. He's also serving with his own weak words and in context possibly of a certain situation. So I don't think it's fair to take small and certain portions or even single sermons

To justify one's actions or beliefs. And then the last thing, just when Sam was talking, it reminded me of that comment at that area-wide meeting, or sorry, that meeting in May, the nationwide, about the mother starving her children. I thought of it this way. My mom wanted me to grow up eating.

Meat and potatoes. But I would have been happy to have ice cream and cookies. Mom knew what was best for me, and she denied me that which wasn't good. And that's what the call here is now. We want Zion, the congregation, the mother, wants her children to be fed with that which is good, not with something that appeals to our flesh.

Yes, maybe that's all, but I just ask if I could hear that gospel for my many sins, doubts, and weaknesses. We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name. Okay, I think we're planning on going until around 2.30 with the discussion. Here's the list that I have. No, there's eight people on the list. The first is just so you know where you're at so you don't have to be too worried for a too long period of time.

Reino Kuoppala, Pat Kariniemi, Steve Warwaruk, Olli Kujala, Don Lahti, Jouko Haapsaari, Martin Pylvainen, and Russ Roiko. I have three things that come to my mind, and let's see if I remember them.

But when we think about greeting, or when we think about greeting somebody who's very apparently opposed to God's kingdom, it doesn't matter if they're in one of the known heresies, or if there's somebody that's traveling along with the children of God, but not part of them. If we begin to greet them, we're taking part with them in their evil ways. And that can be dangerous.

Because they can draw us also into their way. But what is better is when we don't greet and then they begin to ask, why didn't you greet? What a beautiful opportunity to get a discussion going as to where they are and where I am. So that would be clarified. Then another thought that I had is,

When we think of the fact that we don't serve, that the congregations don't serve Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, the question arises, why are those services advertised in the Voice of Zion? Are we trying to encourage people to go there with those ads in the Voice of Zion? That's something that perhaps should be looked at and considered.

And then one other thing when I think of the different points that come up. People come up with all kinds of ideas, quotes, and this and that from scripture, and they try to explain their thoughts with human carnal understanding.

It kind of reminds me of when the serpent came to Eve and said, has God really, did God really say this? And got Eve into a conversation with the serpent. And I remember one of the Finland speakers was talking about this and he said, that's where Eve fell in, fell from faith. When she began that conversation with the serpent.

And so we don't want to get involved too far in these explanations to try and figure something out with the carnal mind. Quoting scripture is fine. But when we quote scripture, we want to quote complete scripture, not just parts that would satisfy us. I remember one meeting we had between Menahga, Wolf Lake and Brainerd

One of the people from Wolf Lake mentioned from Hebrews where it talks about putting away every weight that always upsets us and looking forward to Jesus, the author of our faith.

But what he did was he left out the first verse and just continued on with the second and third verse. And so he was questioned, well, why did you leave out that first verse? He didn't answer that. So we want to be careful with this. We don't want to feed the carnal mind, and we don't want to use the carnal mind in trying to interpret

What is God's word? But what do we want to do? We want to be from a childlike mind. Pray to God that God would reveal unto us what is his will and that he would give us strength to remain in God's kingdom. And then the last thing that when I think of people who are in the wrong, following the wrong spirit, I think people

Who are in those congregations that are opposed to God's kingdom. We know that if they, what would I say, if they wake up, if God reveals unto them where they are, they need to come back into God's kingdom through repentance. It doesn't work to just walk into another congregation and start joining, start paying dues in that congregation and go on from there.

They need to come in through the door which is Christ Jesus. As Jesus says, I am the door. Whosoever cometh in by me shall have everlasting life. And so these are some of the things that come to my mind. And other than that, I find myself to be weak and poor and sinful.

And say like the Apostle Paul, O wretched soul, O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me? And I ask that can I yet believe all my sins and doubts forgiven today? Okay, we're going to interrupt. Pete Lever, he's in an area where cell coverage is not that great, but right now he is, so if we can go right to him, that'd be great.

Pete Lever.

Okay, Pete, you have to unmute yourself from your end.

You're still on mute, Pete. Maybe we could go to the next on the list, which is Pat Kariniemi, and we'll go back to Pete Lever. I'm Patrick Kariniemi from Minneapolis, and before I begin, I would like to hear the gospel. We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, amen.

I just have a few thoughts here. One, when it comes to greeting, I think back to when I was a young adult, there were those amongst my friends who, for all intents and purposes, were not living the life of believers. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

Saturday, Sunday morning they'd come to church. And then after church, they would continue with that life. And I often wondered why they would bother coming to church. I thought they were hypocrites. And I didn't understand why they would just come and pretend to be believers on Sunday morning. But

For those that continue to come every Sunday morning, those in church who didn't know what their lives were would greet them warmly and welcome them to services. And as I've gotten older, I realize they would keep coming to church because of the love and the forgiveness that was offered there.

And those that kept coming despite, in many cases, years and years of this lifestyle, God preserved them in faith because they desired to keep coming. So my thought is this. For those of us in Minneapolis, we're here today. We desire to keep coming.

And I would dispute in some sense that there hasn't been any outreach or effort to discuss this because there have been numerous instances where there has been many, many discussions amongst many, many individuals. And I know for me personally, I really appreciated these discussions, both personal ones and

And we've had, even though they're difficult, these area discussions. I don't fully understand how this happened. In fact, I don't understand how we are where we are today at all. But I think I don't need to understand. I just need to be here.

To continue the journey in faith, this is where salvation is. And I think I can say that this is true for those of us in Minneapolis, that the congregation's desire is to remain in faith. The understanding, maybe it will come, maybe not,

I think the acceptance has to come. And I do believe that it is. It is slow. I think, especially for many who have been involved with this for a lot longer than I, it seems like we're at a time where we can no longer

Continue. And in some respects, it does feel like we're on a knife's edge, and how long can we balance there? But when I think of church, coming to church, the believers, I think of the warmth and the love and the forgiveness that is offered there. And that's what I want to be a part of.

So I would say try to offer that love and that forgiveness and patience and pray that we would be given, if not understanding, at least acceptance, that we would all be able to continue together towards our heavenly home. Okay, is Pete ready? Okay. Pete, you're next.

Can you hear me now? We can. Okay. I'll make this brief since I'm driving. My wife reminded me to pull off the road. But nevertheless, I've been rejoicing at most of the speeches that I've heard here today. I'm speaking partly because as an LLC board member,

We all serve the entire Zion of North America. And a couple thoughts recently that have, well, actually it's been for quite some time, some of them, that have been so troubling are those accusations of spiritual abuse. And I have felt to myself when I first heard that term,

I thought that this is not a term that comes from God's kingdom. And it's weighed and troubled. And then when I think of the many years now that this turmoil, which has actually turned into not just a battle, but warfare in God's kingdom.

And I've wondered, like many have said, how long? King David himself asked numerous times, how long, Lord, how long? And we've all heard the same answer many times over, that only God knows that time. And so we've prayed for love and patience

That we would never lose that first fruit of faith. But still, even up to very recently, there have been letters written that have claimed that the Minneapolis congregation has been ostracized and rejected, and we've already heard about

The mother not feeding her children and these types of things. And we know also that the writer to the Hebrews wrote so lovingly in the very beginning chapters of his letter of his concerns and worries and how he very clearly said

That they have become, you have become dull of hearing. And also, rightly or wrongly, I've told my wife, I said, it doesn't feel like dull of hearing anymore. Many of the speeches that I have heard myself and congregations, members, individuals that

It hasn't become dull of hearing that they have become deaf and they have become blind. And I have prayed unceasingly, I have to say for myself first. I've told my children growing up and others that it's not selfish

To place yourself first in the prayers to our Heavenly Father. The prayer that he would show me the way, that he would guide me, that I would not go off on a different path. So I'm so thankful, even for this technology today, that we're on a long driving trip,

There have been a few spots where it dropped out, but the speeches I've heard from the elders that have spoken and these young men that are very much younger than me, my heart has said amen. I have literally felt like rejoicing at the work God is doing this day.

My final prayer this moment is that those that are dull of hearing or deaf or blind would hear and see, hear what the Spirit is saying unto the congregation as the Bible reminds us of so much. And I have been so overcome

With a lack of trust, with so many sins, doubts, and countless worries, that I also this moment would ask, can you bless me for all of those sins and doubts, fears, and worries? We leave all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, our precious Father. Thank you. Next on the list is Josh.

Steve Warwaruk. Steven Warwaruk, Outlook. In the beginning, I wanted to bring greetings of love and God's peace from

Saskatchewan, those that knew I was coming wanted that I would send their greetings, bring their greetings to this meeting and that they are remembering us here in their prayers. I tremble to speak what's on my mind.

And would ask in the beginning if I could hear that gospel for my many sins and doubts. We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name. I hope I can get my thoughts into some order. I'm thinking of a presentation

On the church law of Christ. And in that presentation was that question that does the act of binding remove the faith of the individual that is bound? And my understanding on that question is that

The answer is no. That faith is no longer there and the act of binding is acknowledging that they are no longer believing to make it clear to them and to the congregation that they are no longer believing. And

Just thinking about the situation in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake and many of those events that have happened, have been touched on already. And though we're not often part of those discussions here, like the one where

The congregations here decided that they would no longer invite those Wolf Lake brothers to speak in their congregations. The decision, I guess most recently at the annual meeting, not to archive or have a link to the broadcasts from Wolf Lake and Minneapolis.

And I believe that decision was made because the sermons, many of the sermons that were being spoken there were causing confusion. And then I heard Rayno mentioned about advertising services for Wolf Lake.

And I guess the question I have in my mind is, and I believe it's been touched on already, is has that separation already occurred? And is it time for us to make that, acknowledge that that separation has happened?

One of the questions that I had on my mind is, while we continue to have those congregations as members of the LLC, are we giving a false hope to the members of those congregations?

And like I mentioned, I tremble to speak this, and if I'm wrong in this matter, I would ask that if you would correct me. I would ask again if I could hear that gospel. That we have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. Okay, then we're going online to Olli Kujala. Or is he here? I think he's online. Yes, this is Olli. Can you hear me?

Can you hear me? Don Lahti would be next then. Yes, we can hear you. Okay, good. God's peace to all of you. Again, this is Olli Kujala from Minneapolis. I, the very first, I have to say, I'm very troubled hearing the previous comment where

The brother said something regarding that there are false hope about believers in Minneapolis. This strikes to me very personally. When you talk about Minneapolis, you're talking about Olli Kujala amongst others.

We are believers. We are believers who want to endeavor. It is hurtful to hear comments where there is a desire to separate us, to cast us away. I want to ask, can you forgive those

My thoughts and my sins and worries and doubts are forgiven. I believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. It was nice to hear the presentation in the beginning of the meeting and again I was looking forward to discuss about the topic that was in the presentation.

But it again seems that there have been only very few comments about the presentation. Discussion is more about the concerns about our current time, and that is understandable. But there is also a danger of trying

In our faith, if we focus more on troubles and failings of others rather than what Jesus Christ has done for us. Just to bring greetings from Minneapolis that we are still enduring in our faith. We are praying that God will reveal his will and

That the love, love would be restored in North American society. And as you have heard, Minneapolis is not driving this discussion about heresy. Minneapolis does not want a heresy. Minneapolis does not want to be separated from other believers.

It is not true. It's not true that there is a new teaching, new understanding in Minneapolis. We are not disagreeing. I mentioned about the Holy Spirit. We are not disagreeing about the importance of the Holy Spirit or the role of the Holy Spirit. But we all

Need to have a question. Or there is a question to each of us. How do we know, how do we know the difference between Holy Spirit and man's actions? And it is simple. It is the Word of God. So if

The action, if the speech does not align with the word, is it still Holy Spirit speaking? The teaching in Minneapolis is still that Jesus died for our sins. Jesus died so that we can inherit glory in

And we believe that we are saved alone by faith, alone by grace, and alone by Christ's redemption work. In the end here, I just want to go back to the presentation a little bit, and I believe it was from

John 15th, 15 chapters of John. And it's interesting how our Savior reminded, and not just reminded, but commanded us to love. So in verses 9 and 10 it says that, As the Father hath loved me, so I love you. Continue ye in my love.

If ye keep my commandments ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. Then in verses 12 and 13 it says that this is my commandment and it says to

He said, this is Jesus talking, this is my commandment, that ye love one another as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. And then finally in verse 17,

Jesus again says, these things I command you, that ye love one another. I pray that God preserves all of us. And again, with so many doubts, fears, can I still hear that God

We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood. Okay, next is Don Lahti. This is Don Lahti again from Brainerd, Minnesota. Before I get to the reason of my call, I just want to mention that there have been so many other speeches that we have heard today, like Pete Lever,

Inferred to that have really answered to the spirit. But as he also mentioned in the speech that he fears that there are those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, but they do not hear and they do not see. So I would first of all address my comments towards Olli Kujala. Olli, I

Believe that you have the desire like I do to get to heaven one day. But I hope and pray that you have ears to hear. You have not heard what has been spoken today at this meeting, where you have, since you say you represent Minneapolis, and I would say that you and all who are there

You have been rebuked, you have been exhorted to come unto repentance. You do not understand your position where you are. And I would like to comfort Steve Warwaruk. I agree what you spoke, what you said, I say often. And that is one of the

Things I wanted to touch upon was on the binding, because John Lehtola doesn't seem to understand that either. And Keith Waaraniemi already mentioned how there's been confusion on that, on the Church Law of Christ. I can't remember exactly the first words per se, but I think if we read the Church Law of Christ,

If there is a difference or you see someone erring, it is a personal thing between you and that person. These matters that we are discussing are open matters. And the Church Law of Christ concludes it, one or two,

If the matter cannot help, it is then taken to the congregation, and if the matter cannot be resolved, then the person is bound. And as Nick Ylitalo from Canada spoke of, and I agree that when they are bound, they have already lost their faith.

So I wanted to clarify this part about the greeting that when we, as we have so clearly explained, and Walt Lampi explained it very clearly, and others, that when we know for sure we have discussed it with the people, or they have clearly spoken openly in their congregation in a critical manner,

Against God's kingdom and so on. We are not putting that person out of faith by not greeting them. That person is probably left on their own. One, by their own actions, their own belief, their own confession, their own understanding

Can voluntarily leave and not know it, because they do not have ears to hear, they do not have eyes to see. It is unfortunate, but I, that's, unfortunately, it's that way. I would have had something to go into a lot of detail. It would have been a letter that they,

Kauko Mäntylä and [Einari Lepistö] wrote back in 1972 to the Calumet Mission and sent it to various congregations that they knew were on the right track. But it's too lengthy to read, but it is a perfect comparison as to what is happening today.

But I want to mention also in that Ari-Pekka Palola's book that he has written, In the Midst of Storms, when Walter Torola was in Finland and the SRK wanted to meet with him, they rebuked him. They said in this way, believers have been in the habit of trusting you

It is therefore no small matter what stand you take. You have a peace-loving nature, and you want to take care of matters of patience and long-suffering. I pray that you would be able to take a sober stand in this matter and all matters. And that's what that letter from Kauko Mäntylä and Einari Lepistö refers to.

And it gives a very sober warning that has to even what was happening at that time and is happening again today. I don't want to be one that is all knowing on these matters, but I have to express my thoughts because if I don't, someday I may have to answer for them. And I would hope and pray

My prayer is not only for myself, because I have said so many times to our brothers here in Brainerd even that I want to be preserved in this kingdom, in this living faith, in God's kingdom. And I would hope and pray that this message would also go to you, especially in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, that you would be able to come to the realization

That where you are. And you have been already been encouraged and advised that you need to repent. And if the repentance is from a false spirit, and like Reino Kuoppala said, you just cannot walk into any other congregation and start greeting and paying dues and so on. It requires repentance. But even

Again, I have to say that I am no angel. I am not perfect. I have many temptations of my own. I have struggles with my own faith. I often wonder, will I make it to heaven? That I want to be reassured again that my brothers and sisters there can preach that gospel to me. I will leave all sins forgiven in Jesus' name.

Okay, we have three turns on the list. We're a little bit over, but should we just go through the list? Okay, Jouko Haapsaari, Martin Pylvainen, and then Russ Roiko. I thought to rise up that I don't forget myself speaking too long. Obviously, it's very clear to everybody how serious

The situation is maybe five years ago we spoke of different understandings and there were questions about why do you speak about different understandings. Now we see why. There were different understandings and they have led this far. I read some

Days for this, for the meeting that took place in 34 in Finland before the small first-born heresy left, because of the similarities to our situation. The three men from Finland, Juntunen, Krekula and Kaikkonen, who were invited by a group

Here to come to the big service. And the group, even with their own thoughts or own confession, was a mixed group. The years from say 1890s to 1930s, it was very difficult.

Here in America, there were many heresies left, and kind of went back and forth, and they greeted one another, and it was very confusing. And so they kept big services, and it was the 25th anniversary for them, 1933, so they invited three ministers from Finland. And they knew in Finland that it's a mixed group. Of course, because there were Finns who lived here who had moved from there,

They sent messages back and forth. They were aware. And they were warned not to go. They were begged not to go. There were believers praying for them and begging and crying, and this matter was talked about in big meetings. And they went. And now in summer 34, in late June, there was a two-day meeting based on the fruits of the trip.

And the chairman of the meeting kept a summary at the end of the meeting, and that was so new to me. I never had thought about that. In short version, he said that there are two ways to go wrong. One is to teach a wrong doctrine, and the other is to teach a right doctrine

But to go to preach to those who battle against God's kingdom. And he said that your excuse was to go preach the gospel. And he said gospel is more than only the message of forgiveness of sins. It is also exhortation and rebuke. And that's what you should have preached.

And now you preach to them the absolution. And with that, you stepped out from the love of the believers. And that meeting started a very difficult period in Finland, a little over 10 years of being separate. There was another meeting, reconciliation meeting,

Which didn't bear fruit, although it seemed like that, but it caused much confusion. And the kind of closing came in 46, when the separation finally happened. So these questions are always difficult. And they are mysteries.

There was so much in that 46 meetings. There were believing men who said that we were naive. We hoped for the best, but we didn't see where this led. They begged forgiveness. They repented from that. And they left testimony in the years after.

That God forgave them. So, I don't know about greeting. I hear, I want to listen to what God speaks through this meeting and congregation, but I don't see that as the biggest.

The issue is your heart. Why are the believers so troubled and worried about you? Why they are unwilling or uncomfortable in greeting you? Where are you? Because we don't judge. It's God who judges. We don't push away. That was the same statement said in the reforming that we were pushed out.

No, this whole intention is to push up. There was the same statement that there is lovelessness, like it was in 70s and it was here in 73. Because these matters are so difficult that it feels like maybe it's a question of lack of love. No, it is not. It is not lack of love if somebody

Sincerely says that I think you are wrong. I think you are going to the wrong direction. It's not lack of love. And if somebody who is rebuked this way or spoken this way says, I repent, repentance is a change of heart. It's a change of mind. It is 180 degree change. They give it up.

They acknowledge it as wrong, as sin, they give it up, and they move away from it. But if somebody says, I repent but continue, is that repentance? I read from James 1, but be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. I don't know if Antti, my dear friend, is here. You said you do not resist the exhortation to repent.

But if you do not repent, it's lip service. Repentance is a change of heart. It's not only words. Why are we worried? Because in the separation of Korah, God said, and Moses conveyed the message to the congregation, flee from those ungodly men, that you do not perish.

This is a question of life and death, spiritual life and death. And those who do not want to hear, those who go their own way, the Word of God says, flee from them, stay away from them. That's what we are, and we can't change it. That's how we believe.

This is so serious that my heart is pounding. But I have to say this. And I'm joyful. I'm not joyful to say this. But I have to say it. Because this is how I believe. This is how I see. I hope that despite these lacking words, you could feel the love.

The love which is for the undying soul, not for the flesh, but for the undying soul. Time is long spent, so that's the great majority of what I wanted to say. Can I believe my own sins forgiven? We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name. I want to believe. Okay, Martin Pylvainen.

It seems a long time ago that we heard this presentation this morning, but one of the things that caught my ear was this portion that stated where Christ is found in his congregation.

Here on earth and that the congregation cares for our faith. I think we've often heard at baptisms when we bring that greatest example of living faith, that little child, that we bring them into the care of the congregation.

I don't have any thoughts on this question of greeting. But I don't think that is, I think as perhaps Jouko just said, the most important matter that would face any one of us.

Jesus spoke to those two women who came to the grave. He said in this way, all hail in English, or greetings to you in other translations. Greetings we have heard from other congregations today also.

Bring great joy to our hearts. But it is, as some have noted today, feelings of sadness when greeting others who have been battling against God's kingdom

Perhaps the question you've often heard, perhaps of those who are struggling in faith, perhaps I've heard someone once say that maybe you should ask them if they're still believing. I've also thought that maybe we should ask

They still want to believe their sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. But we cannot believe sins forgiven if we don't think they're sin. And many times we've heard this thought that showed me in the Bible where I'm wrong.

And then I'll understand and believe. But there is a sin of disobedience that others in the Bible have fallen into. This is a sobering time. We wonder

How long this will go on. We pray and hope that there would not be anyone lost from God's kingdom. But if any become lost, as I once was in my own life,

There is only one simple answer to that. It's because of unforgiven sin. The congregation wants to care today and at all times for us, each one of us, when we struggle in faith.

We want those to come to us and say, tell us that the voice you are speaking with is not clear. It is confusing the congregation. We want to be cared for.

We want to be as that little child. The congregation of God does not reject anyone. Prophet Isaiah gives us an example of this. When he speaks about a mother divorcing

Her own children. That where this congregation of mother would separate from her children. This doesn't happen. Isaiah speaks the words of God.

Lest saith the Lord, where is the bill of your mother's divorcement whom I have put away? Or where is my creditors to whom I have sold you? When has the congregation of God put such one out? Isaiah says in this way, behold,

For your iniquities have you sold yourselves? And for your transgressions is your mother put away? We have heard many speeches today that have

Inflored and begged those to put sin away, put the sin of disobedience away. Hear the voice of the mother. P.S. that little child who hears their own mother calling to them, saying, come children,

Your food is ready. There is great grace in God's kingdom for everyone. And I also want to hear that gospel. Can I believe my men in sins and doubts forgiven? Have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, my precious blood. Okay, Russ, you're next.

Dear brothers and sisters, I tremble at being the last one to speak because the matters are so weighty, I ask. I hear the cost of my many sins. We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, our precious blood. And I don't know that I have much to add because there have been so many brothers who have covered the same ground.

And so maybe if I just try to, with a few thoughts, bring out that which God left on the top of my mind now. And the issue of wanting to be part of the body of Christ, then where is the desire to participate in the services, not just coming to the meetings to teach the rest of the

Children of God. It raises the question that by their fruits are they known? Because as Jouko described that meeting in 1934, those brothers pointed out that a heretic is not just one who has the wrong doctrine. He can be somebody who teaches correct doctrine, but is battling against the kingdom of God.

That resistance battling disobedience is a grievous sin for the eyes of God. And may God awaken those who have fallen into it, that they may be able to repent and understand.

So that is where my thoughts and my heart got left is that there have been so many meetings over the last 14 months where this instruction has come in larger gatherings as in the national meeting and in the annual meeting and so on. And that instruction and rebuke to repent has not been followed.

Oh, we pray that God would open the hearts of all that they may understand before it is too late. They could come knocking on the door where they could hear once again the voice, the good speaking voice of the blood of Jesus. I'll leave it at that for now. Okay, I want to thank you all for

Taking a turn to speak, and those of you that have also come to listen, there's a few thoughts that yet linger in my mind. We've had some of these meetings and it's been stated that it's sin to not have the Wolf Lake brothers serve us. It's also been said that it's sin

To not greet those that we are not at peace with. And it's been said that it's sin to not serve in Minneapolis. I've come here, and I've heard many times in my life that, speak what's on your mind.

If you're wrong, we'll be correct. I believe that will happen here. It seems that those that are in Wolf Lake and Minneapolis have pointed to this group and said we are wrong. I don't believe.

The congregation is there in these matters. That's how I believe. We can only speak what we believe. I would say to those that are in Minneapolis, repent and leave. Come and join.

These other congregations here. When we're in the congregation and the congregation speaks to us, rebukes us, we want to hear. But if you're in a congregation where the Spirit is no longer guiding,

That rebuke will not be heard there in that congregation, but it is still heard here in the kingdom of God. And I think what we've heard here today is the loving rebuke unto repentance for those that are left there in Minneapolis and in Wolf Lake. But I, for my own worries,

Oh, it's incensed. Can I still believe it?

I also have enjoyed the presentation and listening to all the speeches here. I think the question on all of our hearts that's been brought up here today also is the separation, this question of separation. And I think that's the fearful nature of the discussions here. As has been mentioned, many of the things were discussed about,

Greeting and those things are because of symptoms of what has taken place and where we were five years ago to today. Those matters are that we were worried about then have in some sense have come to light here. I know personally I was hoping there would be some direction for us all to take back to our congregations from this discussion and I think

In my own impatience, and I guess in others too, that God, as we've mentioned today, that God, when will this end? And so, the meeting today has gone like many others in recent years. We don't have resolution, we haven't heard repentance, yet we still battle and travel together here.

I do see when I hear your brothers that speak from other areas that are not in Minnesota and you speak and you hear and see the things the same that we do here, it's really a blessing. That's why it's nice and we can gather together in this way. But I am left with this one question too that somebody brought up, that is there a false hope? We've heard from some of those in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake and that there are believers there still.

And because these matters continue to fester, is there a false hope that's been created by continuing to meet? So I don't have an answer either, but I trust that God also will continue to lead and guide, and in this time will show us where to go and how to proceed. I wonder if we would

Sing a song before we would move into the business part of the meeting. I also would ask, and I feel the gospel for my many sins and doubts.

Pete, would you be able to play? Does somebody have a suggestion? How about 203?

[Hymn sung (Song 203); lyrics not transcribed]

All right, so I get to talk that up. Right, right. You can tell we're not there. Yeah.

All right.

Oh, you've got to put some gloves on.

So the first item on the business portion of our agenda is approval of meeting minutes from last year.

The draft copy of the minutes were sent to the congregations. So are there any changes or corrections to the minutes? If you've had a chance to review them, or is there a motion to approve the minutes?

Go ahead. Allen makes a motion to accept them. Sam Roiko seconds. All in favor, raise your hands. Are there any opposed? Minutes are approved. Thank you.

So it is the responsibility of this meeting to nominate directors from the Midwestern Area congregations and to bring the nominations to the LLC Annual Meeting for the Midwestern Area Board position that's open. Jim Jurmu's term is expiring in 2022. He has indicated a willingness to continue to serve if that is the wish of the Midwestern Area congregations. The Mission Committee has received no other nominations for this expiring term.

In Monticello, we have visited about this. There has been support there that Jim would continue to serve. He has indicated a willingness to serve, and the congregation also supports that. Jeremy?

Yeah, this is Jared Glenn from Rockford. We also discussed Jim Jurmu serving as LLC board director at our board meeting. We were supportive of having him serve another term if he's willing. We also brought his name last Sunday to our congregation and we've heard nobody, I guess no feedback on our

Recommendation that he would continue to serve, so we take that as a show of support from our congregation as well. Bob Niemela. In Elk River, we also discussed Jim serving on the LLC board, and we were in full support for nominating him

Steve Collette. Steve Collette, Brainerd. We also discussed this on our board and we're in full support as well, along with the other congregations.

But Mike Forsti and then Mark Skoog. Yeah, Mike Forstie from Cokato. The Cokato board would also support Jim Jurmu continuing to serve on the LLC board.

Mark Skoog from Menahga. The board and congregation would also be in favor of Jim continuing to serve.

Anyone here from Williston, I would speak? Or Canada?

Any other discussion at this time? So we would need a motion from this meeting to nominate him and bring that to the LC annual meeting. Steve Klett makes a motion. We have a second. Jeremy Glynn, seconds.

All in favor, raise your hands. Any opposed? And the motion carries. Brainerd delegates will be responsible for bringing that nomination to the LLC annual meeting in July of 2022. Okay, we'll move on to the

Midwestern Area Mission Committee terms, Bob Haapala from Outlook and Bob Niemela from Elk River's terms expire in December of 2021. It is the responsibility of this meeting to appoint individuals from the Midwest area to serve on this committee. There are presently six individuals serving on the committee, and Jon Bloomquist and Adrian Pirness as the LLC's Mission Work Directors. All Midwestern Area congregations have input on these appointments.

Both Bob Haapala and Bob Niemela have agreed to serve another three-year term. Is there any discussion about Bob and Bob's terms? And over here, Becky.

We visit about these terms in Elk River and support the continuation of Bob Niemela serving from our congregation and also Bob Haapala. Thank you. John Bloomquist. I would just note as a mission

Director, I've participated for a number of years in the Midwest Area Mission Committee meetings. I have to say that both Bob Haapala and Bob Niemela, in my estimation, have been diligent and faithful in their responsibilities and have been very

Valuable contributors to the work of that committee and I can very easily support their continued service. Is there any other discussion? Or would there be a motion to approve them? To continue? Loren Hillukka?

From Rockford. Is there a second? Rod Nikula. All in favor raise your hand. Any opposed? Okay, motion carries. We move on to the, past the camp board appointments.

The terms of Aaron Laho, Nick Ylitalo, and Dean Mattila expire in April of 2022. This meeting provides a recommendation to the LLC board on individuals from the camp support area to serve on the camp board. These recommendations are then acted on by the LLC board of directors at the March 2022 LLC board meeting. We will now ask for input and comments from the Rockford, Menahga, and Minneapolis congregations regarding these expiring terms.

All congregations have input on the recommendations for these positions. So, Perry. Perry Simonson, Rockford. In discussion with some of the other delegates in our congregation and a few of the board members, we thought it would be good that the Minneapolis position be left vacant for now.

All right, is there other discussion? As noted, all congregations have input on these, so feel free. Lee? Sorry, it's hard to see, I got the sun shining here, so. Yeah, Minneapolis nominates, or re-nominates Dean Mattila back to the board,

Bob Niemela. Yeah, we also discussed this at the Elk River board meeting a couple times, and we were in full support of Aaron and Nick being renominated. We didn't have the same comfort level with the Minneapolis representative. I guess we felt like serving on that board is gonna require spiritual unity and unity of purpose,

Now that we are comfortable with recommending Dean at this time. Mark Skoog. Mark Skoog, Menahga.

The board and the congregation from Menahga are in full support of Nick continuing. And I guess personally, I'd be in favor of also leaving Minneapolis as vacant at this time. Other discussion?

We have three congregations who have had discussion and in favor of Aaron and Nick continuing to serve and leaving the Minneapolis spot vacant. It would be good to have more discussion about that here. Sam Roiko.

We visited about this last, a year ago, here at the MBMAC meeting, and the question was there already then. And the thought was with hope and prayer that we could visit about matters with Minneapolis, and matters could be cared for.

And also the comment was made at this meeting that we can make the recommendation to the LLC board and then the LLC board can make the final decision. You'll be happy to know that at the LLC board meeting when we visited about that, the brothers on the board said, well, we'll just take the recommendation from the local area and let them make the change if they want to make the change.

And I guess my thoughts join in with the other thoughts that have been expressed to this point that based on the discussions and the meetings and the events that have taken place over the past 14 months, it feels that this is another one of those

Actions that need to be temporarily paused until we can visit about the matters when there's no unity of faith and understanding and no desire to care for those matters that have been so openly expressed and visited about again today.

Are there other thoughts you want to share? Any more discussion there? Would there be a, would want to put together a motion on how to proceed here?

Jared? Perhaps it would be good to make a motion on each of these individuals individually. That would be okay. Then perhaps with the Minneapolis question, we could either vote to renominate Dean or leave the position vacant.

So with that, maybe my motion for how to move forward here would be to vote on these three positions individually. So that would be my motion on how to proceed. And if that, on the outcome of that motion, I guess we could either proceed that way or proceed

In a different way, if somebody has another idea. Jim, your move. As Sam mentioned, this is an appointment made by the board, and we do, as a board, we do want input

From the area, I suppose it would also be important that we have input from the camp board itself. And so I'm sure we'll ask for that. I think whether there's a motion acted on or not at this meeting, it still is an appointment. And so it'd be good to have clear direction from this meeting if there is clear direction. But at this point, for sure, I felt that there is

Clear support for two of the brothers, and there's reservations around having a member from Minneapolis being on that board, even though there is full support from the Minneapolis board on their representative, Dean Mattila. So with those comments, I just wanted to clarify that for the camp board, the final decision will be made by the LLC board

Justin. Justin Mahonen. I can comment from the perspective of a new camp board member. And over the last year, I've learned what the roles of a camp board member entails. And part of that is

And administrative help to the LLC office to find and fill camp work positions. From the spiritual standpoint, going into this role, I assumed it was more of a operational position, but that's not the case. In being asked to find people to serve and direct and assistant direct,

The camps and having that same fear that the spiritual turmoil of our time pertaining to Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. I am not comfortable in sending my children to camps that I do not know where the spiritual matters are of the individuals

Would be directing the camps and therefore I cannot approve of Minneapolis continuing to serve on the camp board until, as we've learned today, as we've heard today, that in order to proceed in this kingdom, in this one house of unity, there must be repentance from

Minneapolis congregation. Jared. Yes. So what?

Getting a little bit more clarification from Jim that it'd be the LLC board that'd make the final decision on these members. I would just at this point withdraw my motion to vote on these members here. And my heart says amen to Justin's and Jim's comments that I'll just speak personally for myself. I would be in favor of

Leaving the Minneapolis position vacant, particularly for the reasons that Justin mentioned. So maybe if the LLC is looking for direction from this meeting, I would maybe

My own thoughts are along with what Jim and Justin just said as well. And perhaps maybe we can make a motion to proceed with nominating those two brothers and leaving Minneapolis spot open until matters are cared for. So is that a motion? Yeah. All in favor?

All of this stuff from Rockford seconds that motion. Any more discussion? If not, all in favor of the motion that we would proceed with, Aaron Laho and Nick Ylitalo, and leave the Minneapolis position open for now. Are there any opposed? There's one opposed, I see.

Okay. Motion carries. That's how we will proceed. So those names will be, those suggestions will be communicated to the LLC board for consideration here, there. Okay, so we're on to the LLC operations update. Adrian got taller.

Thank you, Adrian. I wouldn't have been able to do that by myself. I guess I couldn't do that. I could have done that. What can I do, Jake? I can do that. It's no problem. It looks good here. We already

We already addressed this this morning. Let me unplug it and plug it back in. It's behind there. Still looks good on my screen.

Okay, don't touch anything, Phil. First of all, I'd like to bring lots of greetings from the staff at the LLC office. At the office, we still continue to operate and function with a great deal of unity and support for each other's departments, and we often overlap.

And we support each other in that work. None of this work could be done without the continued support of North American Zion. And it's been personally a place of tremendous joy for me to be able to serve in my role there. And so we'll go through this presentation fairly rapidly. There's been some that have

Give an instruction to brothers that go to serve. Use the five Bs. Be brief, brother, be brief. And so we've had a few changes in 2021, and that's Ruth DeLacey was hired to work in the communications department. She's the assistant there. And Adeline Moll, who works in the mission department as an assistant to the mission and pastoral departments.

Both of these additions are very beneficial to the whole office. I know I lean on both of them from time to time and pretty regular for their support as well. In 2021, new board members were elected, nominated and elected to serve on the LLC board. Randy Hillukka from Menahga, Lauri Nevala from Phoenix,

And Mark Wittenberg from Seattle. In 2022, there are two board members that have indicated an interest in retiring. Jim Frantti, who currently serves as our chairman, and Pete Lever, who is a representative from the West. And so those discussions are continuing in the local meetings as we've discussed here about the vacancy of Jim Jurmu.

From the Midwestern and with Jim Frantti's retirement, the Eastern Area Board at this point has made a motion to table the issue of nomination to replace Jim Frantti until the reorganization study can be completed of our areas in North American Zion.

In the eastern area we continue to see a steady decline of membership there and the numbers are in the 300 or just less than 300 range and in the other areas are growing. And so the question has come up is about representation and how those areas might be split up. One proposal was brought to the board meeting in October

And it was discussed and there was some other discussion points that came up out of that presentation where that committee that is looking at the reorganization and the size of the different areas and how the representation is impacted went back for study and it'll be taken up again as a discussion point in January. And if that January

Discussion kind of goes along with the way the study points to is that that position that Jim Frantti holds will be reallocated to another area. So the Eastern Area Board will take this back up as a matter, again, when that area is reallocated.

Or when the areas are better solidified and brought to a discussion at next July's annual meeting. Those area changes won't take place until the board meeting in July in Longview. And so, at this point, there has been no nominations to replace Jim Frantti yet, and the western area still has not met to discuss that.

In 2022, there's been Serena Siljander, who is our digital assistant. She's a part-time employee, has indicated that she needs to focus more on her full-time career in real estate and is going to be leaving us. And so we're recruiting to replace her in her position. And there's no replacing Serena, so we're just finding a replacement for her position.

And Eric Jurmu has also indicated an interest to retire. This has been discussed with the personnel committee on the board and at the most recent board meeting. And the board has indicated support for Eric's wish and desire to retire.

The personality or a committee, I'll just say this, a committee from the board has been appointed to look at finding a new executive director and that work has started after the October meeting and it's continuing. So here's the LLC board terms that are expiring in 2022 is that Pete Lever and Mike Kumpula from the western area,

Mike Kumpulas is one of those positions that's an at-large, that's assigned to the western area. Eastern area, Petri Hotari and Jim Frantti, and then Midwestern, Jim Jurmu. And we already discussed a little bit about camp term, camp board terms that are expiring, but in addition to Aaron, Dean, and Nick, Yadipig, and Tim Niskanen from Toronto and Illinois,

Their terms are expiring. A year ago, there was a recommendation to combine the Stony Lake and Hasscib, or yeah, Stony Lake and Hasscib Lake camp boards into one. And so that was done. At that time, Brainerd indicated a wish or desire that they didn't need to have a representative and that they felt comfortable with the representation that was there.

And so that position has been left vacant, but we still have a 12-member camp board, and those Yadipig and Tim Niskanen's terms are expiring from that Stony Hasscib board. And then Camp Kippa will be taken up with the Western Region with Steve Johnson, Mike Ouellette, and Steve Black.

From the October 23rd board meeting, there was the approval of the 22 operating plan and budget. That 2022 operating plan and budget was developed earlier in 2021. It was presented to the congregations and discussed and voted on to see if there's any changes or recommendations at the annual meeting in July.

With those changes now being incorporated in the 2022 operating plan, in October it was approved, and that's the plan that we're working from, that current operating plan now. We'll start working on it in January. And that budget was approved then. They also amended and balanced the budget for 2021. We all know that foreign travel has been crippled

Stopped or canceled because of the COVID pandemic and we intend that those trips will again resume in 2022, as early as hopefully February. 2022 Phoenix Winter Services are March 17th to 20th at the Phoenix Church. This is a change that was intended to be at a school in

In the greater Phoenix area, however, we were unable to secure rental of that church, so the services will be held again at the... Phoenix winter services will be held at the Phoenix church. 2020, this is a typo here, 2022 summer services will be held in Longview. Actually, Longview congregation is hosting them. They'll be held in Kelso. Longview Kelso is two cities that sit next to each other, divided by a...

Small River. And they will be June 30th to July 3rd. In 2022, there are eight confirmation schools, and two of those two confirmation schools will be held at each of our camp centers. Two at Prairie Shores, two at Camp Kippa, two at Hasscib Lake, and two at Stony Little Lake. That sign up for those camps,

Based on input from the delegates at the annual meeting in the last couple years, that there will be geographical preference given for sign-up, and that sign-up will be sent out early next week, or sometime at least by early December for that geographical sign-up, and then following that on January 10th, regular sign-up for those that aren't requesting a geographical camp.

We would suspect, or we do expect, that there will be about 250 to 260 confirmation students again in 2022. So you know that the songbook has been released on October 24th. It works really well, as long as you ignore the glitches. But they're working on the glitches. But it still works well once you get past them.

And then the LLC app has a publications app that's going to be released here in early 2022. And the app is called Harken. A lot of the spiritual matters that have been discussed today have been discussed at the board as well and at the LLC. And it's already been heard already the discussion that there was

The continent-wide meeting in May of this year at Monticello. There was at that meeting and at subsequent meetings a plea for those who do not feel unity with the meeting to seek help. There's been no correspondence with Wolf Lake in Minneapolis since the May nationwide meeting and Patrick

Clarified that some with that there's been some communication, for sure, between individuals, maybe small groups, but there has been no direct communication between either those congregations with the LLC or with those congregations with other congregations. But there has been some discussions between groups or individuals there. The Southern Minnesota Board meeting,

Early in October, we heard about that today already, and we also now understand and recognize that these concerns that are of our times affect beyond Minnesota. In those meetings and discussions, there continues to be criticism of the LLC board, local boards and ministers, and following a

But it's just been continuing to be part of that. And there's been accusations of law-mindedness in North American Zion. But overall, we're thankful for the broad unity among believers, the LLC board, the SRK, and the SFC. One of the things that I continue to marvel at is that this work of God's kingdom goes on during the battle. And during these difficult

We see so many blessings from the work in God's kingdom. And so we continue to trust and pray to God for his guidance in all of our work and in these matters that are so difficult for us to see our way forward.

I'm gonna touch briefly on camp attendance and this will lead back to a discussion point that's occurring is that you see this 10% of our camp participants are at Hasscib, about 20% have been at Prairie Shores, Camp Kippa around 25% and nearly 50% of our participation is at Stony Lake. We continue to see continuing pressure

And maxed out camps at Stoney Lake to the point where we're not able to serve everyone. We have limits on our sign-ups, on our enrollments, a page for the different camps. And so this prevents some kids, some students, and some participants from participating in camp because they have not chosen to go elsewhere

To participate in those camps. So we see that pressure. It's been our hope and wish as a camp board to continue to look at ways that we can make Hasscib Lake more viable and make the attendance higher there. One of the things that we've discovered for that is that 15% of the participants at Hasscib Lake are from that area.

So 85% come from somewhere else, more than six hours away. And so I think that's starting to paint the picture about the difficulties in attending those camps. Yesterday we were arranging bus service for the junior high, the pre-confirmation camps at Hasscib Lake. Each one of those trips is nearly $4,000.

At the Eastern Area Board meeting, we discussed this. And we've discussed it at the board, at the LLC board level. And the discussion about the future of Hasscib Lake is a topic of discussion. It has been the feeling of the board and from the camp boards that this impetus for that continuing discussion on

The future of Hasscib Lake to come from the eastern area. It is an LLC-owned facility, so this becomes an LLC decision, but we want that discussion point to come from the eastern area. We discussed it at the eastern area board meeting a couple weeks ago, and recognizing this challenge and this dilemma that we have with Hasscib Lake

With the years of work and the years of experiences that we've had there as being such a wonderful and precious place to have camps, the Eastern Area has decided that they would take this matter up as an agenda point specifically at the May meeting that we have at the Eastern Area.

The LLC Facilities Committee has weighed in on this and helped provide some direction on that and has given that type of support that we wait for Eastern Area to continue to grapple with this idea and the thought about the future of Hasscib Lake. So, our numbers are growing, which is a good thing. Our challenges are there.

And then what do we do with the displaced work that's been done at Hasscib Lake, and how can we incorporate it more? God has given us great opportunities out of some of these difficulties that we face, and one of them is nearby in Silver Springs. This here just kind of paints the picture about

Stoney Lake, Hasscib, and Camp Kippa. I don't have Prairie Shores net income information attached to this. It's a Canadian-owned facility, Canadian-run facility. We don't own it as LLC, so I haven't included it here, even though I was fortunate enough to add their numbers in the above slide. So at Silver Springs, we've been

Working with development on that with the development committee, with the LLC facilities committee, and at the recommendation to the LLC board was to build a bath house as the initial work to be done there, and that was approved in the July board meeting to move forward. Moving forward was kind of like, okay, we gotta move forward, now what do we do? And so we have this

Bathhouse idea that incorporated showers and would accommodate large events. Another question comes up and says, well, what if, what happens if Hasscib no longer is there? Is there a way that we can have camps somehow located at Silver Springs? So this adds another element to

What we are working on and not knowing the future we just develop some contingency and contingency planning and so we in our planning we use what if statements well what if this then that well what if this and then that and so that's kind of what our planning ideas are in right now so at this point the recommendation this arrow just points out where the bath house would be located on the property this is as if

Summer services was set up there. And then here is another picture. This is some very rough drawings. You don't need to see the construction drawings. I just include them in there because I'm just fascinated that they can, a builder can make sense of all that and build something that actually looks like this. And so we divided the bathhouse into two projects, into a phase one and phase two project.

The phase one would not include showers. If you see this design right here, you can see those two wings on there are the shower rooms. And so there are other buildings that are attached to the building. So very easy for us to construct the bathrooms without the showers that would allow us still to add showers in the future without any additional expense.

The idea is to just go with this for now, and we are in the final stages, Nate, in getting construction drawings ready for permitting. I plan to take and submit for permitting by the middle of December, and hopefully we'll be able to start construction as soon as frost out. I think frost comes out when ice is off, right?

I don't know, I'm just based on not having any idea what Frost does with construction. Pretend like it doesn't exist. But anyway, so in the spring we hope to begin construction of the bathhouse. We have a budget for the bathhouse. We'll be making a presentation once we get kind of our finalized drawings and everything completed and present to the congregations around North America.

Show them what our budget is and the money that we have for that and where the delta is and how much more we need to raise to complete that project. So this is kind of taken into account, not knowing for sure what the future looks like at Silver Springs, but certainly serves all the events that we could possibly think of and needing right now.

In the near future, and it will serve on a regular basis. This is a three-season facility, so it wouldn't be used during the winter. It's just used during the spring and summer and fall. I would welcome any questions if there are any, but other than that, that is the completion of the update.

Can I follow the five B's? Subject to interpretation. Okay. Well, thank you. And again, just want to express our support, or our appreciation for the support. It makes the, you know, when we're,

Involved in the work and this work that's been done over this last year and feeling so much support for all the things whenever we've had a need there's somebody there to step in and help and help out with whatever our needs are and the volunteer element of the work in North American Zion and God's Zion in general is so huge and so important and to that we thank God for

His continued blessings and his preparation of all of the believers' hearts to continue to serve this kingdom. Thank you. Always nice to see the work that is happening.

There was a Prairie Shores Camp report attached with the agenda. It will not be read here. Are there any questions or comments regarding Prairie Shores Camp at this time? Okay.

Moving on to new business. There was no new business earlier in the meeting. Is there anything else that has come up during the day that anybody wants to... that we missed or need to add? Sam?

I don't have any new business, I guess. I just was wondering if there would be any from Wolf Lake that would want to speak to the questions that were asked during the earlier part, and I know that's been a question on many hearts and minds, and the concern is still there.

Is Wolf Lake still online? Anybody from Wolf Lake wish to speak? Wolf Lake is still connected via Zoom.

Do you need the phone number, Adrian, or is there a way to connect? We would ask Wolf Lake to unmute if they would like to make a comment via Zoom.

No response. To you here, that are here from Minneapolis, one of the things we visit about in southern Minnesota a little bit about is this mutual work. If it is mutual work,

It's difficult not to do it mutually in that sense. So when we have these meetings, in the last meeting and then this meeting too, that there are those from the board there that have left before we got into the mutual work discussion too. So encouragement would be there and I think that is where some of this difficulty comes in when we're trying to visit together about things and yet we don't have opportunity to visit that much.

I just wanted to share that thought. It was on my mind earlier and after October's meeting. Mutual work is done together and when it's not, that's where the questions come in. Is there work being done by itself because they're not here to participate in the business parts of the meeting? Are there any other comments to share at this time, thoughts?

Questions? Otherwise, we have come to the end of our agenda. Nick? I guess one

A question that rose during the discussion about the camp board positions in light of the feeling of the group here regarding the Minneapolis position and I would say that it does create

I guess an awkwardness in the work when the question is there, the wonder is there. You know, as far as even asking people to serve from those congregations in the current situation. But I guess the point that came to my mind in that is with regards to

Wolf Lake's position, I know they don't have a term expiring now, and maybe there's some bylaw requirements that would need to be, I'm not sure how that would, I guess, play out, but I guess the concerns, I would say, are the same from both of those congregations, so would there be any discussion or action regarding Wolf Lake's position?

I guess I would also say that neither Dean or Dan Keranen personally have caused any, I guess, direct issues in our, I guess the meetings I've been to have been mostly Zoom meetings lately. But at the same time, the reality of the

The spiritual situation is there with both, so I guess it was kind of burning in me to at least bring it up. Is it something that should be discussed, or is it something that would be discussed when Wolf Lake's term expires?

Are there any thoughts to Nick's comment? Anybody else want to share their thoughts? I agree with Nick that it seems that it follows along with the Minneapolis situation, but I also trust that the LC Board can visit about that matter as well.

Allen. I guess my thoughts are is that if there's nothing imminent or specific regarding the Wolf Lake representative on that board, then we could leave it as is.

Anyone else? Or anything else before we would close our meeting? If not, we'd be looking for a motion to adjourn the meeting.

Loren Ylioja, motion 2. Do you have hands in seconds? All in favor? Are there any opposed? The meeting is adjourned. So we will sing song 377. Rod Nikula will then hold a closing devotion in prayer, followed by song 221.

Father and the Holy Spirit and the Son, let us pause yet at the close of our meeting to study God's Word and reflect on our day that God has richly blessed us with. For this closing devotion, I would

Read the word of God, which is found in the Colossians chapter 3, verses 12 through 15. And the words are in Jesus' name as follows. Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercy, kindness, humbleness of mind,

Meekness, long-suffering, forbearing one another and forgiving one another. If any man have a quarrel against any, even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which ye

Also ye are called in one body, and be ye thankful. Amen. First of all, coming here, dear brothers and sisters, I'm feeling many doubts and fears and ask that you forgive me for all my fears and sins and doubts. I want to believe with you

There have been many thoughts expressed here today, and right from the beginning with the opening presentation, my heart said amen to the presentation which our brother gave on the parable of the vine. And many of the comments that have been made through the day today, they have answered to my spirit

And I have rejoiced that God has given his word to approach even difficult matters. And these difficult matters have been also brought out in our meeting today, again, as in previous years and previous meetings this year, that there are speeches that

How the enemy has been able to do his work to draw some of those out away from the feet of Jesus and to the edge of the borders of God's kingdom to see matters in a different light and to battle against God's kingdom

Because division and sorrow in the hearts of the children of God. These battles are not far from any one of us. We carry our own flesh. We battle the temptations of the world. We battle the enemy of souls. And certainly he is

One who is trying to draw us away even as he did there for Adam and Eve. In the garden we have heard how he visited with Eve. She had heard the instructions which God gave to Adam through the lips we could say of Adam and began to plant those kinds of doubts that did God really say not to eat of that fruit or is this

Perhaps she was thinking something that has come from Adam. We don't know for sure, but we do know that the enemy was successful, and both she and Adam ate of that fruit. So we ended up sitting for an hour with the battle of flesh every day, and when we see how the enemy of souls is