Welcome to our evening discussion. We'll have an opening prayer by Eric Mattila and the discussion following Song 161.
[Hymn sung (Song 161); lyrics not transcribed]
The grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with each one of us now and always.
Let us begin this evening discussion in prayer to our dear Heavenly Father. Dear Heavenly Father, we have gathered this evening as weak and trembling people in your congregation
Desiring, dear Father, that you would be with us here tonight, that you would be in our midst, and that we would be able to hear and recognize that still, small voice of your Spirit. We ask, dear Father, that you would
our hearts that we would be able to speak what is on our heart and what is on our mind and that we would speak in Christian love that we would continue to have this desire that none would be lost but that we know on this earth
journey that way and that gate is narrow and broad is that way that leads to destruction and many over the years have fell from this narrow way and begin to travel those broad paths
And we know and we trust, dear Father, that in this holy and precious congregation here on earth, there is that care, there is that love, there is that instruction that is needed for each one of us. But so often, dear Father,
Our ears are closed to hearing this instruction. So we ask tonight that you would give each one of us hearing ears, that you would give us believing and trusting hearts, and that you would protect, you would gather, you would strengthen all of us.
that each and every one of us here could remain as little children in your congregation, that we wouldn't begin to gather and walk by our own strength and knowledge and ability, but we could trust in this precious Mother. We ask this in all
Our unspoken thoughts and prayer in Jesus' name, amen. We will gather for just a moment around God's precious and unchanging word. Reading from the book of Matthew, the sixth chapter.
Verse 33, in Jesus' name it follows. But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. Amen. These words of our Lord and Savior, Jesus,
were part of the longest sermon that he kept. And in that sermon, there were also gathered there his disciples. There were gathered those who were believers and apostles of Jesus Christ. And we remember and recall
When Jesus and when John the Baptist began to speak and began to preach in this world, their message was very simple. That they said in this way, that the kingdom of God has come nigh unto you.
repent and believe the gospel of this kingdom John preached this way and Jesus preached this simple message and Jesus also taught his disciples to preach in this way that to simply say the kingdom of God has now approached you
And it is remarkable to read Jesus' words and to see how much he spoke of the kingdom of God. That this small kingdom on earth is so dear and precious to us. In this kingdom is where the words of living life are spoken.
In this kingdom here on earth is where we find strength to continue this endeavor. It is where we find peace for our souls. It is where we find comfort and fellowship and the unity of spirit with the other children of God.
But we also read, and it is related in scriptures, when Jesus or John or his disciples begin to preach this message, that there was two different kinds of responses. On one hand, there were those who responded in this way.
They said, have mercy on me, Jesus, I am a sinner. Or we see in the humility, in the place of weakness that they were at, when it was revealed to them and they understood that they needed to make repentance.
But there was also another kind of response. There were those that rose up and they said, of what do we need to repent of? That we are the children of Abraham. That Moses is our teacher. And that we can clearly see.
And Jesus had said in this way, If you would have realized that you are blind, then now you would be able to see. But since you say you see, you well remained blind. It is no different today, brothers and sisters. When the kingdom of God approaches us,
with concerns, with worries, with discussion. It is important that we listen and we accept and we remain in that place of a child, that we wouldn't begin to battle against this mother. I have seen even in my childhood
short time of speaking or we could say this time of the battle we have had on this continent many have lost their sight of the kingdom of god they are unable to say where god's kingdom is and some have even felt
that those who have risen against God's kingdom in rebellion, that that is the kingdom of God. What a sorrowful manner it is when we lose our vision, when we no longer are able to understand in what group God's Holy Spirit dwells,
Where is those believers that have the same spirit and the same faith as us? It is very important, dear brothers and sisters, that we never want to find ourselves in this position. When we begin to battle against God's congregation and against God,
for it is a very dangerous place to be, and your vision will quickly become darkened. You will quickly lose sight of the truth. It is important, dear brothers and sisters, that we remain as humble children,
we remain seeking obedience in the instruction of God's kingdom. That we even remember those words of Jesus, even for the believer, that we always seek first for the kingdom of God. This kingdom is so dear and so precious.
that will lead us home to heaven even this evening as we begin our discussion each and every one of you regardless of what sort of fears what sort of doubts what sort of understandings you may have came here with
You can already at the beginning here believe all your sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. I have came here with many of my own temptations, many of my own failings and weaknesses and fears. And I ask if you would also preach that gospel to me.
It pays to continue on this narrow way. In Jesus' name, amen.
I will just kind of give a short overview here. Over the past couple of years, congregation members have reached out to the board voicing concerns surrounding our speaker brother, Brett. The board wants to be open and transparent with the congregation
how we have dealt with and struggled over these matters. We have discussed concerns at our meetings. Some have met with Brett to discuss these concerns and others have reached out but have not been able to meet. The board has felt a change with Brett along with what we feel is a lack of freedom with board members and in attending board meetings.
We have made these thoughts and concerns known to Brett. We have prayed for guidance to do what is right and correct in the light of God's word. And we feel the need for the congregation's help in this matter. From one of our board meetings in Unity, we had decided that we would pause Brett or not schedule Brett
to serve until we could meet as a congregation. And so here we are this evening. Our hope and prayer is that God through his spirit would care for all of us and that through his Holy Spirit in his congregation, he would reveal the correct way
So as we begin our discussion, I want to encourage everybody to just speak what's on their heart and mind. Board members, speakers, congregation members. I also just want to encourage you to speak from the heart. I know at times we read a lot of prepared statements and whatnot, and I think we're going to have a lot of
this evening, so it'd be good if we could just keep it to what's on our heart and mind. As it says in Matthew 10, 19, and 20. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit that
of your Father which speaketh in you. And then we can all remember from Ephesians 6.12 that in these battles that God's kingdom is facing, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
So, as we begin, it is out of love and concern that we are here this evening, and I'll just open up the floor, and I have a notepad and pen, and raise your hand, and we'll just keep going.
If for some reason I forget your name because I stand up here and sometimes I hit the mind blank, I'll ask you to forgive me ahead of time. But I think we have two roving mics. Let's open up the floor for...
Oh, I should mention, as in all of our meetings past, we are recording just for the archive purposes. It is not being broadcast or shared. I certainly would consider myself pretty ignorant on a lot of what's been going on in Zion over the last few years. I've kind of tried to stay out of it.
And then a few weeks ago, when Keith made his announcement, I was kind of surprised, and I was taken aback. It was just something that I didn't expect, and like I said, I've been kind of ignorant on a lot of things. So I called Brett the next day, had a good talk with him. I called a couple board members who I'm very close with, had a talk with them.
And I believe that the board cares about Brett. I believe that Brett cares about the board. And I think it's safe to say that they're friends. But I do think that the board was wrong to remove Brett from the speaking schedule. Certainly before this meeting, regardless
As it pertains to the church law of Christ, I'm probably the most guilty one. I mean, when it comes to, I teach kindergarten and Sunday school. That's perfect for me, because that's about my depth of understanding of faith. And I look at my brothers on the board, and I look at Brett as just my fellow brothers in faith.
As it pertains to the church law of Christ, like I said, I don't know all the details, and we're all flawed, and we all try. I just feel like if members were concerned about Brett, I don't think they should have gone to the board. Maybe some of them went to Brett, and that's good. Again, I don't know all the details.
And if they did go to the board, I feel like the board should have just said, just go talk to Brett. Maybe some of this stuff could, you know, maybe we wouldn't be here today. I don't know. And just a general, kind of a general thought I had was there's so much dividing us in this world today. There's a lot of division out there.
And I just think it's important that we look at people and not look at them and cast a judgment based on who they're friends with or who they're sympathetic to or who they associate with or anything like that. Just based on them and how they stand alone and if their beliefs are in line with yours and if the fruits are there.
And I guess that's all I have to know. Comment on the church law of Christ. As far as I understand, it does not pertain to the calling of ministers. So I don't believe it pertains to this. Secondly, however, even though we are a level-headed flock,
So no minister, preacher, or anybody else is above anyone else. The human tendency is not to be willing to talk to someone who they consider to be in a position of authority. So the step to talk to a minister can be significant. There's nothing wrong in my opinion with the congregation member talking to the board who has been elected to be part of the guiding of the congregation.
So, then when I heard what the board had done, which was to pause the using of Brett as a minister, my first thought was, oh, Brett must be really elated. Since the last time I heard him talk, it seemed to me that he had a lot of trouble, even from a human point of view.
I thought that if I were a minister, I'd be like, yes. But anyways, I don't know if the situation is that, but that's what I thought. If I had been a minister, I would have been like, yes, I'm on it. So anyways, that's my... Oh, we're back up.
I have a bit of a hoarse voice, so hopefully you guys can understand me, but I don't want to come here tonight finding fault in anyone else, even though that's close to my flesh. But instead, just confess how I believe. I'm not one to
I take the microphone usually, so hopefully I can express what's on my mind. I haven't been here for as long as probably a lot of you have. I've lived here for three years, but in the three years that I have lived here,
The sermons that I've listened to from Brett and just many discussions we've had about faith have been uplifting and edifying to my life of faith. I feel like his sermons have been centered around Christ and what he did for me and for each
And there's a Bible verse that I want to pull up. See if I can find it. It's from John chapter 6. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life. He that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
If a sermon is focused and centered around Jesus and what he did for us, I hope that's the only thing I need to be fed. And if I'm looking for something other than that, then I'm hungering for something, for the wrong thing. But I don't know if we can all agree
It's about something far, far greater than that. God must be allowing this to happen for reasons not completely known to us. And when I think about, I don't know what part it is in the Bible, but it says, I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.
So believing this gospel brings salvation. I know that God wants souls saved and Satan doesn't want souls saved. So it's God that wants this gospel preached and Satan that doesn't. So I hope and pray that I would never
Satan is so incredibly cunning and deceiving that I hope and pray he would never lead me to think that this gospel shouldn't be preached individually to a person or to an entire congregation and think that that is
I just, I want, I don't want to be part of any group or, you know, I'm with this person or that person. I want to be obedient to Jesus and his teachings. I don't want to put my trust in anything else
and the LLC, the Phoenix Board, my spouse. I don't even want to trust myself. I want to only, I want to put my trust in the Lord and lean not onto my own understanding. There's another part of the Bible, I don't know the exact words, that says,
Where your heart is, there your treasure is. And I think Luther has another word he has for it is where your trust is, therein lies your God. And I just hope and pray that for myself. I can always put my trust in Jesus Christ. That he alone is the reason for my salvation.
for my righteousness, which is how, which makes me right before God. His complete work and what he did on the cross is my salvation. Thank you. Over to Neil.
And then we have another mic. Let me bring it over here to Eric. I see my heart says amen to what Adam is going to say. My faith is very simple, and I try to keep it that way. But I think we need to be very careful. Brother Tim just said that...
If he was a minister, he would say, yes, I want to get down, or yes, I want to come down. But he's not, and Brett is. And when your name isn't just mentioned in the Phoenix congregation, when your name is being to rest, to sit, wherever the case may be, most of these ministers don't get back up and speak again. The perfect example is Eric [Lahti] that's just recently. And I feel that the love...
When it came to Brett, we don't treat people like that. When Tim mentioned that we want to come down, it's not just Phoenix that the name is brought up. It's Zion. I have a sister in Minneapolis called, not Minneapolis, Cokato, and say that what is up with Reverend Rintamaki? And we don't...
I talked to Brett when I found out the news. I called him right away, just like Adam did. We had a good conversation. My heart says amen to him. I don't see anything wrong with Brett's faith. And the blanket statement I got, I started reaching out to people and asking them close to Brett, ones that aren't close to Brett, and asked them what is his faith like and what are your concerns that Brett's helping, why Brett is being sacked.
And the blanket statement that keeps coming up, just like it did with Eric, was spiritual matters. And it just really breaks my heart in the way this is happening. When Keith mentioned that the board has several years had issues with Brett, asked Brett that, and he said that only ever
had anybody come up to me until June of this year. So I don't know if he meant several months or several years. But if we had issues several years ago, why did we wait a year and 10 months to bring up these issues? So I was always taught I was born and raised in Phoenix. I helped build this church. Yes, I swept the floor. I was 10 years old. And I have a lot of believing, or I have a lot of Sunday school teachers here.
that taught me when I was a little kid that when we have an issue with somebody, we go to them. And I think it's very important when we have issues, and if it's been happening for several years, and members go to the board, the board should redirect those people back to that individual and say, have you talked to them? Go talk to them.
Yeah, Brett's schedule's busy. He has a lot of things going on. He said he's reached out, so I don't know if it said something like he said, she said. But it's almost like he's guilty, and now he's got to try to prove his innocence. And I don't think that's right. I think that we should have had this meeting before we take anybody off the schedule. And that's a big deal when we pull someone down from speaking.
You'd think we'd cross our T's and dot our I's before we make a decision that's going to influence someone's faith life that not just comes from Phoenix, it goes across Zion. So it really, really bothers and hurts my heart that the board makes the decision to sit Brett, but yet the congregation a month later, not a week later, a month later, we talk about Brett for a month,
at the dinner table in conversations. And then we have a meeting a month later. Couldn't this meeting have been a week later? So those are some of my concerns. I really encourage the board members that made that decision that night at the board meeting to vote to take Brett down.
Speak up and see what those matters truly are. Instead of putting a blanket statement on spiritual issues, what are the true issues of Brett? And lastly, I hope and pray that there's no sides, that we're all in this together and our common goal is to get to heaven with all of us
and not certain individuals. Because when we don't get to speak, then it seems like there's a personal agenda behind this. And I really hope and pray that there's not. And I really encourage the congregation. The congregation makes the decisions, not the board. And I really hope that we
Does the congregation come tonight and unite and reinstate Brett? Real quick, I have known Brett since confirmation, and he is the same Brett since years ago. It was 1997 that I first met him. He is the same Brett from then, even when we as a congregation put him up as a speaker, even to this day, his fruits of faith have not changed.
You can bring that over to Michael then. It's Eric's turn, but Michael will be next. Yeah, so I'd like to share my thoughts and my feelings of my heart, at least from my perspective, why we're here where we are.
Like we heard when Keith read that opening, that the board has felt that something has changed in Brett. That he's no longer free. He no longer comes to board meetings or seems to share this
closeness or fellowship as the speakers and the board members share. And I know before this meeting I wanted to go visit Brett personally and I wanted to speak one-on-one with him.
And hear from his own mouth how he believes and how he understands these matters. How he feels about the spiritual battle that we're now in in God's kingdom. And I'll have to say I went through it with a lot of fear and trembling. And also with hope that we could come to God.
some sort of, I guess I would say, common ground or understanding that we believe the same way and have the same faith. And I say, we were there for five hours, and I don't know, maybe we visited four of them. And I related to both Brett and Marita that the reason I'm here today
And the reason that I feel the congregation is worried and troubled about you is they don't know where you stand on the spiritual battle that's currently taking place in God's kingdom. And I would say it quickly became evident that night that we don't,
We do not share the same thoughts, ideas, or understandings on the cause of it, the resolution of it, and almost none of the happenings and decisions and the way things have went in the last five, six, seven years, however long it's been now, that we don't believe anywhere close to the same way.
And the answer that I received when I asked if, and I related that I was, I'm curious and I'm wondering and I'm concerned because I haven't heard you speak about how you feel about this division and where you are was what does it matter how I think or how I feel or how I believe about these issues.
Now I was really taken aback by that statement. That I feel especially as servants of the word, as servants of the congregation, that we need to be open books. We need to be free before the congregation. We need to share what's on our heart, what's on our mind. And especially during spiritual battles,
The congregation must know where we stand. They must know how we view it and where our heart is. And that's what I feel has been lacking from Brett, that he hasn't been open and free to share where he is. And the people that I have spoken to from this congregation,
have expressed that's where their concern is also, is that where is Brett in this battle? There were many other concerning things we visit about. I am going to share some of them because I've seen Brett is here tonight, and he expressed this is how he believes, so I don't think he would have any
columns about me sharing what he freely expressed to me, and also he is here to correct me if I'm wrong or I misunderstood him. But I brought up the fact that the Wolf Lake, there are members of the Wolf Lake congregation that are now holding Bible study with people in heresy from different heretic groups.
And Brett and Marita didn't see anything wrong with this. In fact, they thought that it was good in case somebody in that group was seeking. We view this matter very differently. I asked them about the fact that there was members in Arizona holding their own Bible study at Warren and Marita Raisanen's house.
separate from the congregation here, they also didn't see nothing wrong with that. We spoke about the MBMAC letter that was written to Minneapolis and Wolf Lake and what it implies and what it speaks about and how serious the matter is.
And I don't think we had the same understanding at all on that letter. We seen it very differently. And we also spoke briefly about the letter that Warren and Eric Skoug wrote. And we viewed that letter very differently. And after many hours of speaking of these letters,
current situations and the things that have been happening in God's congregation. We can't brush them off and pretend that they're not happy and ignore them and say that I'm not in one group or this group. But I believe God's congregation and God's spirit is one group.
and not the other. It's impossible that we have this sort of a division and both groups are right. But I felt Brett and Marita were unable to tell me where they stood and where they felt God's kingdom was. I left there very troubled. I left there very sad, for I have no personal hard feelings about Brett or Marita.
I have always felt Brett is not a close friend, but a friend of mine. But the matter of friendship is very different than the matter of a servant. I went there with many doubts, but I'll have to say what I left.
I was completely reassured that the board had made the right decision in bringing this to the congregation, that the Holy Spirit has led and guided our visits and our discussions. And I even told Brett, and I pray he has the strength tonight to speak and share what's on his heart openly before God and
his congregation, where he stands and how he views these matters. For my own sins and doubts, I ask if I could hear that gospel again. We'll speak and bring the mic over to Shannon, no, to Bruce. Hold on, hold on.
thoughts that going around my head now is going to put my thoughts straight but it's nice to see you marita here tonight of course our hope and prayer is that god will open your heart in that way that you can see that
myself being a servant also that if I would be asked to not serve it would be a relief in one way of course there is my flesh that I carry too
But, you know, hearing this that how come two years the board has been hearing about Brett and only the last six months Brett's been known about it. When board members
And my speakers too, when people come to speak to us, we don't too quickly jump and start bringing meetings together or anything like that. But perhaps we have instructed those to go talk, but individually. I don't know, of course all the
circumstances but i know i have visited with some of this matter and that was instruction whether those people were able to go and talk to
contacts from the congregants about the servant. It seems that at some point it's their duty that they would need to do something. And I've been on those four meetings and I have to say that some of them have been tough
But at the end of each meeting, we've been united. We have felt that the Spirit of God has been with, guided, and instructed. I know each board member has been troubled and second-guessing themselves that are they doing something wrong.
My mind is this way that when one being asked to not serve, then it's none but love. Even this meaning, it's not about trying to
Even the church love Christ, the last step taken to the congregation, when that step is only because of the love. God calls, like it says in the book of Revelation, Jesus holds those seven stars in his hand.
He rebuked five of those servants of those congregations and asked them to repent. God loves and He has patience. He has time.
God would allow you to take this as an act of love, that you would hear what the Spirit says on the churches. I have come also here with not many doubts, and I ask you if I can hear that gospel. Amen.
Okay, well, Bruce is speaking. Bring that mic over to Shannon. Before I share my thoughts, I come with many doubts and maybe feelings. I'd like to hear that gospel. Can you bless me?
labored over this for a long time. This was not made. His discussions were not in haste. And my first conversation with Brett regarding a sermon that he spoke, there was some things that were unclear to me. And I approached him, and that would have been a year and a half ago. And we spoke on that, and he shared what
was meant, and it was around being a brother's keeper. But what was concerning for me, not what was said, but what wasn't said, what's been left out, and it seems to have been recurring in sermons that the doctrine
completely jitter free giving a sermon so we talked on those matters and I have been thankful that when I have reached out to Brett you have called back you've not hidden you've not ignored and we've had some good discussions albeit I feel there is there are differences to how we believe on these current battles facing God's Zion specifically around serving of Minneapolis and Wolf Lake
about what the gospel does and doesn't do. I believe that we have battles on this journey and we take care of our matters as they burden us. And that we are saved by grace, but yet we have the endeavor of faith that we need to take care of the matters
And it felt like in one of the conversations there was a difference in how we perceived those. And then regarding how the board met, you know, we talk about fruits. Well, what are fruits? Fruits are behaviors. We've seen a change of behavior. When we see a change of behavior, it brings concern. So we ask, is there lack of freedom?
Are you not free to speak to these matters when you no longer attend board meetings? No. Board meetings are not a requirement. It's not something that's just a test that if you don't go to a board meeting, then you're condemned. That's not what I'm saying. But it's been the complete absence from the board. And when we discuss these spiritual matters, it's so comforting to have the speakers there sharing their own psalm, their own understandings.
And after the recent meetings in the last couple of Mays in Monticello from the board members and the board members speakers meetings, each minister came back with their greetings and their concerns. And the congregation has not heard your concern. How do you feel on these matters? Do you feel there's a division? Do you feel there's two groups?
And I was told by somebody that says there can't be two groups, but yet they quickly identified themselves in a different group. Well, if there can't be two groups, how can you identify yourself in a different group? And we have that here. We have division. We have a false spirit dwelling in our people. And it's right here in Phoenix. And to deny it doesn't mean that it does not exist.
And I tremble. My wife and I were visiting today, and she's not feeling well, couldn't make it, but we were visiting off and on all day of how difficult it is to see and how our heart aches. But yet, as a board, we get accusations that we're doing things incorrectly, that we're doing things too hastily. And each of those meetings, there's so much love. In fact, there's times where you're in there, and how can you imagine that such tough-grown men are weeping?
And if at any time, you know, I even went to the last board meeting with the feeling that, you know, perhaps my time on the board is done. Who am I to make these decisions? Who am I to have these discussions? But Brett, we've asked you to come to the meetings and discuss openly on how you believe and how you feel. Somebody asked that this meeting could have been avoided. Sure, it could have been discussed had Brett shown up at meetings and discussed these concerns that we all had.
But yet, we individually called him, and some were kind of at peace, some were not at peace, and some were absolutely no peace. So the way to resolve that is to sit down with the board. We're a group of believers who want to make right. But the flat-out refusal to open up to us as a board and as a congregation is what brought it to this.
more and more frequent. So after the last couple of sermons, the sheep are restless. And when the sheep are restless, it's good for us to have these discussions, Brett, and to talk about what these concerns can be. And I hope those that have come to me could also speak to you. And the few that have come, I know two out of the three said they did speak to you, Brett. And I hear a report that nobody's talked
People are reaching out, and I've seen somebody busy with you right here at church, one of the elders. So please be free. Please do not disregard the instruction from the kingdom. And as far as speaking, it sounds like there's people that feel that speaking is a privilege once you earn it. You're above reproach or discussion.
And as I mentioned to Brett, and I feel the same, that I could believe just as content and maybe even more content being quietly in the pew and not being on the board. And I will freely step down to the congregation and feel that my service there is no longer needed. And I also feel, Brett, that you can believe just as preciously from the pew as you can from the pulpit. So just remember that and be humble.
And if anything I said based on our conversations is different than what you recall, please let me know. That's all I have for now. Oh, I have one other thought on the, regarding the letters, the letter that was written, we're going to be reading that letter to the congregation. And I was, I'm in support of that based on the discussions I've had with those in Minnesota, I'm in support of that letter.
And I think it's healthy. People say, well, why would you want to push people out? People are moving from the center and eventually will find themselves outside the kingdom. They're not pushing out. People are willfully moving to the fringes where there's so much danger. And I encourage all of us to seek the center. That's where the safety is.
Just like Adam and Neil mentioned about the board making the wrong decision, the devil's told me the same thing. But I trust that our congregation here will correct us if we did.
For all my doubts, before I go forward, can I hear that gospel? I do agree with Rebecca that this is bigger than this topic right here, that there is two different spirits
For myself, for a number of Brett, you and I being asked to be youth Bible class teachers. I know you and I both struggled with how are we going to do it.
and being on the youth committee together, the different things. You and I discussed faith, I would say probably weekly. When your name came up to be a speaker,
consider you one of my good buddies. Been able to talk about the way over the years. Our weekly discussions and visits about faith started changing. I remember the day sitting on that plane ride on the way back from Minnesota from that Minnesota meeting in Monticello.
where we didn't quite agree on how that meeting went. Our discussions about faith slowly started changing. And I would say in the last year,
The only time you and I talked about faith was this last June when I came back from Minnesota. We were at Starbucks. And at that time, I believe that you're struggling just like me. But I've thought about those poor means when
You'd come just about every single one that we had, and slowly, over the last year, I would say, you came to one. And I could be wrong, but maybe even longer than that, but one. And that was the one that we discussed over whether to serve in Wolf Lake or not. Myself, just like Bruce said, it's not a duty
that you have to come to board meetings. But I don't know what's different. I know I had a discussion recently with a few people. And I know you talk about faith with other people.
For some reason, it's different now than it was before. I don't know what it is completely besides that freedom of two fellow people walking on the same path. The only way I can think of it
is that we're not on the same path. I think that's happening in God's kingdom right now. There's only one way. And for myself, I'm either on the right way, some others are on the wrong way, or I'm on the wrong way.
My hope and trust is that if I am on the wrong way, that I'll be revealed through somebody or through God somehow. And then most importantly, that I'll be humble enough to put it away and believe. That's what my feelings are right now, that there is a difference.
yourself and myself on that way, that freedom, that Christian freedom that we have and that joy isn't there. But my hopes are that others that have these, have their thoughts, that they can put these things together and visit about these things and myself being a
be opened up through the congregation. I said earlier, be humble enough to accept it. We move on from these things, and my hopes are that we all, just like Rebecca had said, that we all can make it to heaven, and we can all believe to make it there. That's all I have right now. Give Ryan a high five.
And we have plenty of room on the list for whoever's next. I guess I'll try to put my thoughts together. First of all, before starting, I'd like to hear that gospel. Like the other board members and speakers mentioned, we've had some really challenging times
discussions over the past several months around this matter. I was very slow myself to speak personally to Brett. There was some of those discussions Brett wasn't there and there was some on the board that were going to reach out to him. Through my weakness I left it at that that then hopefully they would speak and both those brothers
believe the same way I did about it and they would give that message. I did get a chance just recently, a few days ago, to speak to Brett and share some of these concerns too. Like it's been mentioned, there's divisions in God's kingdom right now. We've seen in this letter, to me it was a very sobering letter that was sent out and it's very clear that there's divisions in God's kingdom.
And we have, over the past year or so, all over the past number of years, but over the past year, we've had a number of discussions on it. And Brett hasn't been part of those discussions, other than that one that we talked about, the sending speakers to Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. But I've...
That's, I guess, been probably my concern. Like it's been mentioned about the lack of freedom that it does feel like there's a lack of freedom. We've tried to get together. We had one meeting that we tried hard to get all the speakers and board members together. And the schedule was left very open so that everybody could
make it and discuss the matters. I think it's important that all of our speakers and board members that the congregation is entrusted with these duties that we do all believe the same way and we believe the way that the congregation believes. And that wasn't able to happen and to me it was
concerning that feels like that freedom hasn't been there and like Eric mentioned I haven't heard how Brett understands these matter or how he believes on these matters and I did share with Brett too I think it's important that like it says in God's word that we speak in season and out of season if he fills the
congregation or the board is erring in some of these things and not comfortable with the decision that's been made, I think it's important that those feelings are shared openly. I think we all need to be open books before the congregation and I think especially our speakers that we ask to serve us. So I guess those are
Those are some of my thoughts that are kind of getting jumbled now, but I would just reiterate to what's been said that my hope and prayer in these is that I won't get dried up in these matters, and that if I do, I would have the humility to accept that rebuke and correction.
Okay, I think this is in our bylaws too, Lutheran doctrine. The Bible is God's revelation. According to the confessional writings of the Lutheran Church, the prophetical and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testament are the only rule and norm by which all teaching and teachers are to be tried and evaluated. This is the Lutheran view of the Bible, which is an irrefutable principle.
So that's what we have to guide us in this subject matter. The other personal experience I had was, I made it a point to go talk to, I think, almost every one of our ministers. And I asked them a simple question. I said, what would you want me to do if you said something in your sermon that concerned me?
Every one of them said, come talk to me, which is a very natural and very correct way and very much in accordance with the church of Christ. And Eric Mattila, I heard him say in a sermon, I think his last sermon, that if someone is troubled by anything I say, that please come talk to me. So I think in Eric's heart, he does have the
And if there was questions that people had about Brett in his sermon, if the love was really there, you would go talk to him. We know that our own children, that many of us have had many trials with our own children. And when something comes up, we go talk to our children.
We don't even think about running to the board and telling them to deal with it or something. And this thought that we still have this love, but we can't seem to do it according to God's word is really troubling to me. That's really what...
and feeling in a place of uncomfort, and I would dislike Brett to speak of himself, of what's happened over these past time periods. And when the board took that step to rest Eric, or Brett, that was a step that was announced throughout Zion of America, and it wasn't a step that followed
And when Mattila spoke here so freely and openly about these matters, about how Brett understands things, and he went to visit with Brett, and then he came to the congregation here and spoke.
We wouldn't do that. We would go back and we would get another person and we would try to talk and see that this person is still a believer, but he seems to have some wrong understandings that we would like to try to work on. And we hear this talk about two different spirits.
believe that I don't look around this room and see a bunch of unbelievers and me as a believer and anybody who does they have put themselves in the place of judgment now I do believe that there is some very serious doctrinal differences of understandings that need to be addressed
Adam, and then you can bring the mic over to Eric. I know there's been a few comments about the church law of Christ made, and I think it's important that we consider why we're here tonight is to discuss the concerns about a speaker, rather, a servant of the word.
And as it's been said, there's great division in God's kingdom. And as God's children, we're not here criticizing or judging any individuals. We're not bringing people up. But I would say is that when Jesus taught of that church love of Christ, he talked about caretaking for offenses.
And I don't know how many children are here, but all of us that have grown up in Christianity, we know in our heart that it's wrong for us when sin comes between one another if we go talk about that with others. But this is a completely different matter. This is a brother that has been asked by the congregation to serve publicly.
And this isn't a personal offense that's been brought up. And so just like when any speaker, when we discuss them being asked to serve, there's discussions in the homes, there's discussions with the board, and the board has been asked to
care for those and take care of those matters and then it comes for the congregation and this is the same way how this has happened now we have heard tonight that there has been some that have talked to brett and there's probably been many that have wanted to talk to brett but have not but we have seen many examples throughout the bible where god only sent one
He didn't send a few even. And it's a sad, sad outcome that one cannot hear when God sends.
And so I think it's important that we don't sit here and criticize. There's concerns, it's good to bring it up, but if it's all we can do is focus on the procedure and we don't focus on the true matter here. What I would say is that the letter that Keith read in my heart says amen with how the board has cared for this. I know it's not an easy matter for any of us, especially these brothers that have been asked
to care for the congregation and their weakness and doubts. But if there's not freedom to speak like we've heard, then it becomes very, very difficult. And that's not a small matter. For any of you that have served on the board in Christianity, there is such a...
wonderful love when you meet month after month and have heart-to-heart discussions about living faith that's that's the report we hear when god's children gather together that's the reports we hear when brothers gather at camps or in meetings and when it's not that report but a different report where there's no willingness to meet
And there's situations in life where this is clearly a trend. What's more important in our life than our spiritual life, the congregation life? And so we've been new to the Phoenix congregation the last several months and
hearing some of the brothers speak that have spoken personally to Brett, that have sadly said they can come to the conclusion that they believe differently. I don't know, I haven't talked to Brett, but the spoken word has changed.
There's a lot of scripture reading, but when one leaves empty from services, we look inward. But when it's time and time and time again, and we hear these matters now brought up,
And if it's just because the brother isn't free to speak, then hear the call. Open your heart and be free. And if you have a humble heart, you can hear the loving rebuke, then matters can be cared for. And dear Brett, you can be reassured that there's been endless prayers on your behalf. This is a loving congregation.
God is present here calling you. Okay, he'll be here, but bring the mic to Mark [surname unclear] over here in the meantime. So you can... Been much talk tonight about Brett and his sermons.
his fruits, and I heard some comments about judgment. And I think these are all important topics, not all necessarily in the right place at the right time depending on which topic we're discussing here. I know that when we're talking of Brett speaking, there's many Bible verses that touch on
what we are to speak, what we are to preach. And in Corinthians, I thought of some of these verses that people were talking tonight. In Corinthians it says, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring...
to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God. It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom.
For we preach Christ crucified unto the Jews a stumbling block and unto the Greeks foolishness. And on Timothy, Paul says, As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went unto Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine.
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying, which is in faith so due. Or in Romans, Paul says, let not your good be...
evil spoken of, for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that is in these things serveth Christ as acceptable to God and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. I know that there's a book called
He Entrusted to Us the Word of Reconciliation by Vaino Havas. In that book, there's one of his stories or sermons or I don't recall exactly what you'd call them, articles, sections. He had talked about...
minister that went to another congregation I believe it was in Finland and he was being approached because there was contention in that congregation and people were wanting to share all the issues and all the concerns that were going on there and he said he was partially deaf and decided to pretend he was completely deaf and he ignored all the discussion and the chatter and he went up and he preached
God's Word, and he preached of Christ's resurrection and suffering. And then they had said on the third day that the hearts of the congregation began to melt. And they each then, instead of confessing each other's sins, began to confess their own sins. That's what God's Word does. It's sharper than a two-edged sword, which as it says in Hebrews, the Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword.
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. I think some of those verses that I read are in response to some of the comments I heard tonight that Brett is not speaking of these matters in Zion today.
I believe he has through God's word up from the pulpit. I guess that's what I've heard myself. And I think it's good that we discuss the matters in the right way and hopefully the ones that are bringing these matters or his fruits before the congregation have talked to him and then brought it before one or two more
And I know that matter of speaking is definitely a congregational matter. I don't, I guess, dispute that. But it's just, I guess those are some of my thoughts. I know they're jumbled, but there are many more in here. I just can't get them out right now. Okay, well, Mark Young is bringing the mic over to the left.
the church law of Christ was mentioned tonight and the first words of that church law of Christ is with thy brother and thee and there can be a whole host of reasons for that I was one of those who went to speak to
Brett, and I did not find Brett to be open and, nor honest. And I'll try to remember as best I can if Brett has something different that he remembers
But I didn't feel like he was open. And we are advised by God's word to be open epistles. And I asked him if he is with us or if he's with those up in Minneapolis. And he said, what's going on up in Minneapolis?
And I just, I didn't know what to say. I think everybody here knows what's going on up in Minneapolis. So, I was offended by those, by his not being open about these matters.
and so i would like to say to dear brett this evening that when god in paradise went looking for adam he said where are you and that's the question tonight brett where are you there's a couple of parables
Several of the gospel writers have spoken about. They are about the 99 sheep and one had gone astray. And in one of those parables, Jesus says that the shepherd goes and looks for them.
back to the fold if he can find him. So this is my hope tonight. It's been my prayer that we could find dear Brett. And the only way we can find him is if he opens up and speaks about these matters.
So we want to be open and honest before God and before man. And it reminds me that when Ananias and Zephira is a powerful example, when they lied before the Holy Ghost, they were taken out dead.
these may sound like sharp words but like someone said the Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword so that's my hope and it would be I hope that would be the same for me if the congregation came looking for me that I would
Okay, we're going to go to Ben, and then after Ben, you can just hand the mic to Darren, and just bring that to Andy, because he'll be third in the back there. Just had a few thoughts here. I myself have not spoken personally with Brett, so I just wanted to come to the meeting with an open mind and open heart and just hear what other congregation members have on their mind.
just at this meeting, but all these meetings that we have had over the past couple of years. I keep hearing the church law of Christ has not been followed. But from what I've heard so far tonight, I would like to learn more about that. To me, my understanding is one person talks with an individual if they've been offended. If they feel that matter is not resolved, you would take two or three more with you. And if it's still not resolved, at that point, it's taken in front of the congregation and
I've heard multiple stories tonight of people that have met with him. So there's the one. The board has said that they've met with him. To me, that's the group. So wouldn't the next step, if it's not resolved, to me, to take it in front of the congregation? Now, I don't disagree that we should withhold personal attacks. I agree that we should be talking about...
you know, issues from maybe belief or the pulpit or whatever that's been spoken. But to me, we've had the one, we've had the group, the next step would be the congregation. And if I'm wrong in my understanding of that, I'd like to have a little discussion on that so we can make sure that we are following it. My second thought is I would like to see if there are more people, some of the other congregation members that have perhaps spoken with him that feel free to open up
I know over the past year or two, there has been some, unfortunately some distrust that some people have towards the board or certain speakers. So perhaps if there's other people that can also share their mind, perhaps that the people that may have a distrust of the board
would view those opinions as well. I think that people need to realize that the people on the board, I've spoken with quite a few of them, not just regarding this, but just in general. There are a lot of happy meetings, but I know there are a lot of meetings where they go there with very high stress. They go there in fear, especially in the last couple of years when this distrust has started to form around
um, certain people within the LLC or boards. So, um, so we have one, I'd like to learn more about the church law of Christ, you know, to see if it has been followed. I, from my point of view, it has been, um, but also I just like to hear more views. Like I've said, I have not spoken with him personally. So I wanted to come here with an open mind and an open heart. A lot of thoughts raced through my mind. So hopefully I can be coherent. Um,
you know my my flesh very much does not you don't like to hear there may be two groups I very much fear that but if I were to say there's not two groups I'd be lying to myself you know three or four years ago I had
They were meeting in different houses with John Lehtola, and they were the group of grace, and the LLC was the group of the law. So people have been separating themselves into another group for many years. And then in Minneapolis, their battle there was so fierce that for whatever reason, Keith warned me,
where I go and half the board decided to leave, and they said for their personal faith. So in that congregation, there was two groups. And do we have this in Phoenix? I'm not sure. But I know there's, you know, there's a WhatsApp, whatever that is. We're exclusive. Not everyone's invited. So I think...
that this is a very dangerous time for our personal faiths. There certainly seems to be two groups. And at some point, not through any man, not through myself, but God will separate the wheat from the chaff
And at some point, there'll be the believers and there'll be people outside the kingdom. And so for every one of us, we need to take this, I believe, very seriously and look into our own hearts and where do we personally stand. And last May, when I went to Monticello and heard that national meeting,
I heard two voices. I heard the voice that I believe is God's kingdom that I've heard my whole life. And I heard another voice. And I think believers here understand that there is multiple voices. And through the months and years, myself and then a few
Other believers that I have expressed concern about Brett, they don't know where Brett stands. They know where the other minister stands through sermons, through presentations, through meetings. This didn't happen overnight, but over multiple months and years, they've said amen. I should say myself, I've said amen
And I feel like I know where those brothers stand. But my concern with Brett is I haven't heard where he stands publicly. And like I said, you know, it feels like we're coming to a serious crossroads in God's kingdom throughout Zion. So...
I'm losing my train of thought now, but I would encourage Brett to speak publicly on these matters and for all of us to stay humble and pray and listen to the voice of the congregation and the voice of the Holy Spirit. But I have to ask, do we believe that God's spirit is in Phoenix congregation?
How do we believe? And for myself, I have said amen to the brothers in Minnesota when we had that nationwide meeting, and to those brothers that wrote the letters to Wolf Lake and Minneapolis. For all my fears and doubts, can you guys forgive me? Okay, Andy?
Thanks, Keith. I got here a few minutes late, so if this had already been covered, forgive me for being repetitive here. There's been discussion around a few different themes tonight that I've heard. One theme being around the action that the board took.
Further, the congregation members will explain why the board is compelled to take the actions that it took. All right, so in your church bylaws,
It talks about in Article 2, Section 2, that trustees, which are your board members, shall serve and hold office as provided by these bylaws and shall assist pastors and preachers in their oversight of the spiritual affairs of the congregation. And it goes on to speak of other temporal affairs, too, that the board is responsible for.
So if one of you are curious, well, why is the discussion around this matter of our speakers, one that the board addresses, well, you can see this is part of our responsibilities here as listed in the bylaws. We assist our pastors and our ministers in these matters.
in these areas. And if there would be concern that would be had for one of our pastors or our preachers, it's certainly within the scope of what the board would have discussions around. Notwithstanding, of course, not to me personally, but to other board members, people from the congregation have also brought concerns. Right, and so then,
i will i will reflect a little bit on on the just the general topic of for brett marine tonight the couple of times that we visited we we talked about how we believe we talked about some of these matters of these current matters and and the encouragement was that the gospel would
Not the encouragement, but the fact of the matter was the gospel was preached, matters were taken care of, and we all hoped that we could remain believers. After the second time that Brett and Brayton and, of course, Keith had gotten together, along with another couple from this congregation, the encouragement was that
Brett could care for those matters, even those things that he may not have known when he caused offense, that he could care for those with a congregation. As we understand that, being a minister and a servant of the word is a public-facing piece. And my heart was rejoiced a lot when Brett had the strength to care for these matters from the pulpit the next day.
And we had a board meeting shortly thereafterwards, and the topic came up again that there were some congregation members who wondered if Brett should still be serving even after matters had been taken care of. And I will say just from a full transparency perspective, I was very, very concerned about why some congregation members
could not just let the fruits of repentance and these matters be buried in the sea of grace and we could carry on. But again, I'm only one person. I don't know. I don't have the gifts to see everything and understand and interpret what's going on. But that throughout...
all those in this congregation who would believe and would have that Holy Spirit, they would see the matters that are important to the nurturing of the congregation. So we did discuss this, and we felt it would be very important for, now that matters have been cared for, that we would...
We should all be content with what it occurred, but if there were still concerns and those things were coming back, that we continue to do what we would always do, which is encourage those who would come to the board for assistance of these provincial matters to please go back to Brett and visit them.
Time had went by, and there continued to be, I don't know how many, again, I hadn't had anyone come to me, but through these other board members who have come to know and trust and have confidence in that they had been coming to other board members. And so we looked then at, well, what do we do next? And again, in your church bylaws, and I shared this with a friend who had come over to visit with me not too long ago,
Under Article 5, it talks about this matter of pastors and preachers serve an indefinite term at the pleasure of the congregation. They may be suspended from their duties by the Board of Trustees for the action of the congregation and removed from office pursuant to Section 6 of Article 1 of the Bylaws. That section talks about this meeting tonight. Brothers and sisters,
This is not something that any of us took lightly, but we also discussed what is our duty to you who have asked us to serve. Our duty to you was to follow these, not only to do our work within the framework of God's word and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but also those tasks that you've listed for us to do, and one of them
that we would pray that we would only do it when we felt that this was the next right thing to do is to ask Brett to rest until we could have a congregational meeting. So I guess I would encourage you that if you don't think this is the right thing that we on the board did, it certainly was not out of spite or out of a desire to hurt Brett or out of a, it was us
trying to do our best to serve you the way that these bylaws are written and the way that we've understood and interpreted them. And so I think tonight it would be good to not be as caught up on discussing whether or not the church law of Christ was followed with respect to having this congregational meeting. I think that's the devil trying to inject
a wedge into this conversation to keep us away from the true topic here, which is probably twofold. One that Rebecca mentioned earlier, which is discussion around this current widening division in God's kingdom, and the other would be this discussion around whether or not the congregation wants Brett to continue to serve him.
I just, from John, before John, I'll just make a little comment. Kind of going on the lines of what Andy said there, you know, the board's role and the congregation's role, from the speaker's presentation in
From the SRK this morning, there was a question there, and I think it's a good question that we can ask ourselves this evening. And it was, do we feel the idea that God's congregation also takes care of, carries, and cares for our speakers to be a secure thought? And isn't that what we're here tonight, is to carry, to care for our speakers? And we should ask ourselves, is that a secure thought?
for the congregation. Good job. OK. So like my wife Rebecca said, we moved here roughly three years ago. So I have a lot of different thoughts, and I'll try to kind of work through them.
I think there's the question of what is the role of the board and what role do they play? I think Andy had a good point. I was actually the one that had, I don't know, Andy, if you're referencing me or not, I was able to have a nice discussion over at Andy's house where he pointed out that per the bylaws, you know, it states that
if there's concerns that the board does have the authority per the bylaws to take that type of action. So I guess a lot of different thoughts here. I guess first and foremost, I would state that I think everyone here collectively, we all feel and we all want to do the right thing. I don't believe there's ill intent or anything like that.
As far as Brett Rintamaki, I love him as well as all the congregation members here. And the reason for that is God's word instructs us to love each other.
So some of the questions I had about taking the removal of a minister, the first question I would have is, or at least my understanding, and I'm open to hearing what I'm missing because I definitely could be missing something, but one is for ministers to be removed, the preached doctrine would be incorrect.
Um, so that would be one. And then secondly, their life that they live would be contrary to God's word or living in sin. Um, so, and I guess as a congregation, we have to say, okay, is this, are these the, are these number two, are these the two reasons that we move from minister or is there a third or fourth? Um, and then if these are the two reasons, um,
What is the incorrect doctrine that is being preached? I've heard it stated here that, you know, I think there's a lot of scripture portions that are being used, but maybe necessarily, you know, someone may leave feeling empty. And I've also heard it said here with Brett that,
He's been told that he needs to make a stand where there's been a lot of questions of him as how does he believe on these specific matters. And I feel like these are the matters that are currently dividing Zion currently. And I feel that, well, number one, when the word is preached from the pulpit, to me it is the pure gospel that is being preached. And I feel like he has spoken to, in regards to...
uh that line if we're going to say that there's a line or if he needs to make a stand what is that stand that he needs to make and if i would just go to a couple of bible portions because i feel like this speaks to i feel like for me in terms of how i would view what we need to make a stand on and that is
Do we serve each other with the gospel? And in John 14, verse 23, this is Jesus' words. He says, If a man love me, he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings, and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. So I feel like Jesus is telling us that we have to stay in his word. And
And, you know, the Father and Him will make an abode with them. And what are Jesus' words and what is His command? And if we go to another Bible portion, which we all know, we've all heard it many times, but within Matthew 28, it says, "...go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
And I think, I believe Brett's desire has been to serve these congregations and all congregations. And I feel that he views himself as a servant of God's word. And if he is to be obedient to God's word, he would have to listen to this instruction given by Jesus and preach the word to every living creature throughout the world.
So I guess there's a lot of other different types of thoughts that run through my head, but at this point I'll take a pause. Okay, next will be Stefan, and then after that we'll be here. Stefan Forstie up here.
First, I guess I'm glad that Andy spoke. I don't know if I got the timeline exactly right, but it sounded like Andy and you and another couple met with, you and Keith met with Brett very shortly before he spoke and Andy
alluded to the fact that after the sermon, Brett, you know, he asked for help from the congregation. To me, he asked for forgiveness from the congregation if he'd caused any offense, and he was basically pleading for, you know, if anybody had, if he had caused offense with anybody that, you know, they'd have the freedom to approach him. And I guess, you know, whether...
I guess where tonight we're here looking at the idea, some people are saying it's not a church law of Christ meeting. Some people are saying it's just a matter of whether or not he's speaking. And to me, I think the way it's been presented, it was presented as it was announced to the congregation more, which the announcement came on after Brett's sermon, that the way it's been announced to the congregation to me
Tonight is more of a church law of Christ meeting than a matter of whether or not Brett should continue speaking. And we've heard various people with their offenses, concerns and offenses. We heard one guy basically say that Brett lied to him. Other brothers said that they feel like they don't have the Christian freedom with Brett, that he's in another groove.
And I guess one thing that's really been sticking with me ever since Brett gave that sermon, and maybe this isn't the best time to bring it up, but after the sermon, I overheard somebody talking to somebody else, talking to Keith. And they said that the members of the congregation don't need to talk to Brett. The board can take care of it.
If members of the congregation have concerns, they can just talk to the board, and the board will. Basically, it's the board's responsibility, not other members of the congregation, to talk to Brett individually. And I guess that hasn't sat right with me.
And then the other concerns is like Darren was saying when he was talking that it's clear that there's division in God's kingdom and it's important for each believer to ask, you know, how do I believe? And I guess maybe I misunderstood Andy or I think I understood him correctly when he said that.
I don't know if I want to say repentance, but when Brett asked for the gospel for offenses he caused from the congregation, it's almost like, you know, after that, it's kind of open season that, you know, a few people talk to him after that about their concerns, but now we're at the congregation level and everybody's just, you know, whether they talk to him or not, we're just going to bring up the concerns with Brett. And the
and the goal obviously is it doesn't matter if if brett's speaking or anybody else is speaking but that that we would all reach heaven and it doesn't matter it matters if there's a clear division and there's a heresy and there's unbelievers it does matter if you say i don't think that these heretics are
Or I think if one person thinks somebody's a heretic and one person says that, no, they're a believer, then clearly there's a... That matters, but more importantly is when you're talking, how do you believe on these matters each individually? If you have the correct understanding, why is there that...
That need to keep digging. Well, okay, I agree with you on this. I agree with you. I hear your sermons. I don't think you're speaking anything wrong. But do we need to keep digging and digging and digging? But how do you believe on this? How do you believe on that? How do you believe that this person believes? How do you believe that this other person believes? I just think that we all need to believe, have our own personal faith that we can believe that Jesus died for our sins.
And if we have a conversation and we agree on spiritual matters, then that should be enough. You don't need to keep digging to see, well, how do you believe? What about this person? What about that person? What about this group? What about that group? Is it two people? I'm not sure.
You know, I wasn't there, I haven't heard Brett's side of the story, like, when Eric [Mattila] was visiting, but it's, like, when you talk to somebody for four or five hours, it's like, are you, can you accept matters as you hear them, or is it, you accept it, but then you gotta keep digging to the next layer, and the next layer, and the next layer, and you have to learn exactly that moment, how somebody believes. But,
So before Carol goes, I think I heard you, if I heard you right, you said that I said that the board will handle these matters? No, certainly not.
Right, so I just want to clear that I have never understood that it's the board's responsibility, that that's why we're here tonight. The board has struggled mightily with what do we do, and it's the congregation's responsibility to care for their speakers. Okay, Carol. A couple, three years ago, I was very unsettled after Brett had held a sermon,
And I called him up. So long ago, I can't remember the three topics, but there were three parts of the sermon that were repeated several times that sounded unfamiliar to me. And so I was talking about him with Brett, and he said, I said, you know, in depth, and he said he was only speaking to what the text said. And I said, but...
That is not how I have heard these topics covered before. And we spoke at length. And like I said, it was long ago, and I don't remember any more details, except at the end, he said he could not explain himself. And he said, if you don't understand, read Romans. And so I didn't know what to do. So I called the board member.
And I told what we had gone through, and I felt even more unsettled after speaking with Brett. And I kept it to myself mostly the last couple of years, thinking in God's time, it will be revealed. And a month or two ago,
Just spoke to the board member again, and I said I'm still very uncomfortable And it's not anything personal. It's just that I was hearing a different message Okay
First of all, there's been a comment made that I don't need to be part of a group, one or the other.
And that together with even these thoughts, and I would like to hear from Brett. I've visited with Brett a couple of times, and we had what felt to be good visits. I encouraged him to be free.
needs to know how you believe. And we could ask ourselves, well, why is it so important that the congregation knows how we believe? And I think there's been some comments that have perhaps touched on that. The question of...
When we go to serve God's congregation, we go, as Paul has written, as ministers of the New Covenant, of the New Testament, ministers of the Spirit and not of the letter. Because the letter kills and the Spirit makes alive.
I've thought about those words and what they mean and how I understand them is this that we can hear God's Word read to us and explained to us by someone who is outside of God's kingdom and they might speak
So why is it then that the letter kills? Because that's what it ends up being when someone, you know, and I've heard the sermons on the radio before that were spoken by unbelieving people and they spoke doctrinally correct. But there wasn't even possibility for them to
So that's why it's important to be open and free so that we are in the care of the congregation. The congregation knows how we believe. Do we believe as they do or do we not? As servants of the word, it's important to
So say how we believe. So I would like to hear you, Brett, speak on even those matters. This is important for the congregation.
And like has been mentioned in a couple of comments, I don't remember whose they were, but simply we know that there is battle, spiritual battle, in Zion. Not against
So I think it's important to remember that even the Bible, if we go to search for support for our position,
But do we also find the other Bible texts that speak of the same matter that has to be also united together with the words which, and I could say that I have at times found myself searching for a text that I could prove something. It didn't benefit me.
because it was from my own mind and my own desires. But the Spirit is that which then would teach us and comfort us and console us, rebuke us. So again, Brett, I would encourage you
you know i hope that you don't mind by even telling of my side of the story when we visited
And obviously something has made it difficult for you. I don't know what that is. I can't look into your heart to know, but just simply
So tonight we've heard comments, and we all know that in God's kingdom we are fighting a spiritual battle. And we've heard multiple comments where, or I have heard, that people wonder, Brett, where are you on these matters? So one of my thoughts was,
In this battle, the congregation here in Phoenix has taken some action in regards to some of these events in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake and has sent a letter and has decided that we wouldn't send speakers. A question would be, are you in unity with the congregation on these matters or do you feel differently?
I reached out to Brett maybe a month ago or so. I said to him, maybe I was the problem. Maybe I offended Brett. Maybe that's why he wasn't free with the board for the last year, year and a half. He assured me that that was not the case.
You know, I can say it for myself on the board, I feel very small and I don't have answers. I've expressed many times that at our meetings, I just hope the voice
in these troubling times. But does our congregation feel like I've heard quite a few people say they're troubled if Brett doesn't feel free with
his fellow speakers. You know, Brett does not serve the board. And I think the board is very clear about that. Brett serves this congregation. You know, Eric had shared with us that he's reached out numerous times
for whatever reason, it never worked out, but this past week, he finally was able to meet with Brett. And you know, before he met with Brett, I felt like a lot of the other board members, are we doing the right thing? After we decided to
keep Brett out of the schedule, I called a senior member of this congregation and asked if we did the right thing. And their response was they felt that the Holy Spirit may not be there or speaking with Brett.
You know what else on one hand relieved? That we maybe did the right thing.
The freedoms that Brett and I had is just, it's not the same. Maybe he's just, I don't know what it is. Even his good buddy here tonight, it just seems like that freedom is lost with him and I too. I just want us all to get along.
Keep faith simple. Go back to the ABCs of faith. Let's just simply believe and let's start over, you know? Can I hear a gospel? Okay, all over here.
Just a couple of short thoughts. We moved here in September, so I haven't been here very long, and unfortunately my job keeps me away from here on all Sundays. And so I'm not too familiar with all of the issues here in Phoenix.
And we were a member of Minneapolis for many years until we switched out of there with the issues there. But one thing I do want to bring up, though, is what troubles me tonight with some of the comments some people make is, I do appreciate people speaking up like I am now, but is that assuming one's intent, whether it's with the meeting,
I heard one mention that it sounded like someone was assuming Eric's intent, meeting with Brett, in terms of digging. I feel like I assumed that the intent would have been good. So I think it can be dangerous to assume intent because ultimately it can
draw us away from what the important matter is. If one does have a lot of conversation, I think it's only to where the, that's just where it left. It wasn't, we can only assume good intent. I think it's dangerous to assume bad intent just because
I think differently than, and maybe it's a little confusing here, but ultimately Minneapolis drifted pretty, to me it's got a quite, how would I say it, toxic. There wasn't freedom to discuss
matters on our heart, it became more discussing what was one's intent with this matter or that matter or this talk or that talk. And I feel like tonight we're here to talk about Brett. And if a minister had met with Brett and shared his feelings related to that, I think it's important
And, because that's what we're here for. We're here to hear what are people, what are on people's hearts. And I want to hear them, but I just, it just draws me to hear attacks on certain individuals for sharing what was on their heart.
reluctant to talk, and we're only part-time residents here, but we do come to services here and hear the same speakers you year-round members do for, in our case, over a half a year each year. And just the idea of the congregation
knowing how the speakers believe, why is that important? And even in these times, knowing how they understand and how they stand on matters that are troubling Zion, I feel like if, for example, four of five speakers or whatever it is,
understand matters in one way and there's some speaker or speakers who don't agree even if it would cost their position which of course there is no salvation in being a speaker there's no
guaranteed crown or anything like that it's important that that one would dare to speak and care to speak and be the shepherd to speak and even if they are bringing a different perspective and clarifying a matter that the congregation needs to hear
and maybe the other speakers or the board members need to hear. Or that, for example, would be an important thing to go if your board is asking you, you know, what do you think of these things or we got a concern here, to go there and openly express your understanding and either win those brothers that they're airing or be corrected yourself.
So, you know, congregation servants have been likened not to shepherds. And the flock, you know, hears and knows the voice of the good shepherd. And if there's concern in the service of one of the servants, one of the shepherds,
I mean, we don't have to argue about process. We don't have to argue about what steps were taken and if they were ham-handed or not. We're all faulty human beings. And yet, the loving and concern and the saving of souls is the most important thing.
For this meeting, I've listened and I've heard many of our speakers, maybe three, four. I've heard from many of, I think, our board members here. And I've heard humble and weak servants. And I think one feature of this problem that has been going on in Zion is there are a lot of people who
are not accepting and seeing that local boards or the LLC board, for example, are believers who are serving in weakness at the will of the congregation. And it's so easy to...
fall into that where we're second guessing, we're tearing them down, we're like Cal said, thinking of different intents that people are trying to wield power. But I think that it is important for all of us and especially those who are serving in whatever capacity to be open
and want the care of the congregation if they're hearing, because if we go on our own path or think that we can withhold something, the Holy Spirit dwells in the congregation and in the individual believers, and those things make
And let's be humble and share our thoughts, whether they're correct or not, because the congregation can help us. And I've battled with my thoughts and struggles here, and I also want to hear the gospel.
Emory, do you have a mic? Okay, let Emory go first. He was next. Sorry. So Andy had a good point, but I figured I'd just share my stance. And I think the point was something along the lines of we're here to just get the congregation's feedback on it.
So, you know, I'd hope that everybody could individually grab the mic and just hear their feedback, you know, instead of taking someone else's account of it. I think that is ultimately, it just leads to a lot of incorrect results and
You know, it may even be the reason where there's a lot of people sitting here tonight, like myself, just scratching our heads like, holy cow, we've been listening to this guy, thinking he was, you know, preaching fulfilling sermons and preaching from the Bible and
You know, I bet if there's honest people here, they don't have the heart to speak up or the courage because I think these congregational meetings have quite largely been unproductive and actually they feel more like polling sessions to me. You know, anybody that speaks up,
in opposition, whether it's opposition or question, because of their own faith and their own salvation is at stake. They get bundled into these groups where you're in the minority and it just gets really tough to actually share what's on your heart and have a discussion about your
In that regard, I relate to Brett. Why would I want to talk to people who are... When I come to a meeting, for example, I've been to a few of them. I've spoke up. People say they have concerns. I feel like I'm getting put in this little box in the corner.
There's like two other people in there with me and it's like, shoot, this kind of chokes. Like I don't really want to come back here and speak up. There's like a jump to divide things and a haste to divide. I guess I'd be curious to see in the Bible if Jesus...
You know, if he acted that way, whether or not even, you know, I think someone could find a text where they interpret it such that division is the way to approach something like this and cut the arm off or whatever. I'm sure there's a text out there. I don't know, but I don't recall any scenarios in the Bible. I'm not a very well-read person on the Bible, but I don't recall Jesus being
hastily dividing and preaching of division and throwing people out. Not saying that that's all happening here, but I feel like Jesus was preaching to sinners just like all of us in here. We're all sinners, or at least I am. And I feel like Jesus preached to sinners his whole life and he encouraged that that would continue to happen. So I guess...
So the point of this is that if Brett was feeling this lack of freedom to speak out, I can say that I feel the same way. And we're kind of trying to corner him here with questions like, Brett, you should speak out. What's your position? And it seems a little bit silly because shouldn't
don't people already know his position? I mean, he does his preaching from the pulpit, not reveal that. And if it does reveal it, you know, there's people who have concerns and they share them with their friends and then it kind of turns into this herd or mob mentality. And you take it to a sitting setting like this and you have people who are even questioning themselves and then they just kind of get like,
rolled over by the crowd, and it's just, it's really tough. And so I think there's actually a facet of human nature here, which is really survival that is kicking in for a lot of people. And so I would, you know, anybody that feels very strongly about their position on, you know, these things and whether or not Brett should take a stand or whether or not he should be more free, you know, I would,
I would first of all applaud you for your strength because I can't say I have that strength myself to be so strong. And I don't know if Brett does, but he also could be confused. And I guess I'm just, I feel like if we wanted to examine everyone's
We want to examine people's beliefs. Like, let's just go down the pews, you know? Start talking to everybody. Like, let's examine every part of you, whether or not you're public or not. Like, it's such a strong and aggressive and troubling thing to try and take a guy into a sitting like this and just corner him. Like, I felt like some of the questions have been cornering him, and maybe they haven't been.
It's just tough. There's human nature involved. It's not just black and white. He believes this thing this way, and we can never get to the bottom of his full beliefs here. And maybe Eric didn't as well.
five-hour debate, but there's human nature, guys. It's not a simple matter. It's not a simple thing. He could be struggling. He could not know. I mean, it's very possible that he's just quite literally struggling and doesn't know what to do and just taking time. Myself, I haven't ever felt empty or
you know, unfulfilled or like he's leading me down the wrong path. I mean, I've never had an issue with his sermons until it's now raised in my head. And I think the easy thing for me to do would be just go with the flow and be like, yeah, let's pick the guy to keep him out, right? Pick him out. But I feel like it's important for people here to actually
Speak up and maybe we just send this mic down the row and get people's true opinions and talk about their own faith. I mean, are they struggling? Are they confused? Are they having a lack of freedom? Because it's tough. I don't know of anybody here, anybody else that can relate to that. It's tough to speak up.
So I just wanted to point out a few things about myself and how I'm struggling even because it's not an easy topic. It's not that I want to jump to one side or another. It's I want to try to understand what is happening here. We talk about, someone asked, does Brett believe with Minneapolis or Wolf Lake? That's not a real question. You can't ask that question.
His faith is way deeper than that. Like, we're trying to put him in a bucket here, and I just don't think it's right, and I don't think it's right to put anybody in a bucket. Some people here have actually, you know, put themselves in that bucket, and that's, you know, I hope they know what they're saying. Like, they fully understand that point of, you know, the point they're taking, the stance they're taking, and saying they're in this group. Like...
Faith is personal, guys. Are we following man here? Like, this is nuts. It's completely nuts to say you're in a group. Like, faith is very personal. It's, we live and die by our own salvation, our own understanding. And I'm not jumping in a group. I'm trying to believe for myself. And I hope everyone else here is too. Like, I think that, and that's why I was taught that faith, I couldn't,
Could be wrong. I really could be wrong. And so I've expressed this before at meetings that, you know, if anybody wants to chat with me, I'd appreciate it. You know, because if you say someone grabs the mic now and says, you know, I got concerns about comments, like, I start feeling like a little
He said, dirt, right? And then nobody ever talks to you after the meeting. So it's like, it's just straight bullying. It's not even conversational. It's not even, there's no love there. You know, there's no love. There's just, I mean, maybe there's love for Brett, but just saying the other individuals in the congregation, you know, we'll probably go through a similar sort of battle as Brett is. So,
Trying to just bring in a little bit of a human element, I guess, and understand he could be struggling. But to Andy's original thing, I would not ask Brett to rest, because I do feel like he is serving to the best of his ability through God, and I truly believe that. But again, I could be wrong, but that's where I stand.
Hey, Cheryl. And then we're going to go to Nikki [surname unclear]. I thought I would go all night and not say a word, just listen. Here I am. First of all, I
tell you how grateful I am that you attended tonight, that God led your footsteps to the right place. And I have to agree with someone that said before that you probably do not know the amount of prayers that have been said on your behalf. And for those that
have spoken about love or lack of love. This whole meeting is done in love. And some of the comments I've heard lead me to believe that there's two approaches here. And there seems to be more concern with the temporal love
Why are we being so mean and why are we calling Brett on all these issues and why are we demanding that he tell us how he believes? And yet I believe amongst those that have the correct spirit and the correct love that
Exactly that, because these are matters of life and death. And it's spiritual life and death. And it's the love for your undying soul that brought every single person to attend this meeting. I do recall that sermon in where
Brett, you asked for forgiveness from the congregation and asked that if anybody had anything to say to you to please come to you. And my first thought was, oh, what a relief. I'm so glad. And I have to go talk to Brett. And I came to find you after church.
And so I thought, well, somebody else is visiting with him. Maybe I'll call him later. And then the devil had time to do his work and convince me not to call. What would you have to say? And somebody else will take care of it. I don't worry about it. Surely there's people that feel the same way I do. And so if I say something, I'm just going to be repeating what somebody else said.
I would have had more strength to pick up that phone and call you. I found every excuse in the book. I'm sure he's busy. I'm sure he's at work. I can't bother him now. Whatever. Anyway, as far as the sermons coming from the pulpit and not having food, I have to say that that is the feeling I have had. I have not been fed enough.
And the first few times, I thought, it's the listener. The word is there, and it's my own heart. It's not that I'm not receiving it properly. And there's been other sermons from other, over the many, many years that I've attended, and I thought, man, I walked away, and I'm like, I didn't get anything out of that sermon. And somebody will also say,
Oh, that sermon was just meant for me. It's exactly what I needed to hear. So, you know, I kind of just chalked it up to that verse that, you know, I'm just, I'm not getting anything. And then what I started to notice and feel is why I wasn't getting anything.
But there was just no revelation and no life. Most of it is just reading scripture. Well, you can't say that that's wrong because every word in the Bible is true. So if somebody just keeps reading scripture and reading scripture, you can't say that the sermon was faulty. But there just was no life.
And for those members that have spoken up tonight and said that they have heard how Brett stands on the current issues going on in Zion, I have to say, I never have. It was a sermon that I was not at. Because to this day, I cannot tell you how Brett believes and what his understanding is.
It's important in God's kingdom that those that are feeding the flock have the same spirit. And I also have to say, as in the last couple of meetings, I have heard
and behind us and just forget it and kumbaya and everybody just get along. No, these are serious issues. And the love of the spirit and the love of the undying soul is what's so important.
Well, yes. Also in some of the speeches that I heard tonight and also from your sermons, Brett, very rarely, if at all, is the congregation mother and the Holy Spirit given any sort of weight or importance. And I'm not demeaning or discounting
the work that Christ did, that he died on the cross for our sins. But we cannot, we cannot personally for ourselves look at that and say, that's my salvation. We're not strong enough. And we need the congregation, the love of the congregation and the Holy Spirit and the instruction and the teaching and the reminder and the rebuke.
To carry us in faith, our faith is weak, and it needs to be fed. And to forget about the role and the value of the triune God is a scary place to go. And if somebody does not want to belong to a group, I'm going to feel really sad for you. I need this group.
you're strong enough to do it on your own. I don't know. I'm not. Can I believe my own doubts? Okay, we're going to have Nikki and then Tim suit in. But before Nikki goes, I just want to go off of Cheryl's last comment there that
Coming here before you tonight, many of my own doubts and sins, and I want to hear, can I believe those forgiveness? Well, it's as easy as you know. On a very basic level, I just want to reiterate that how important to the meeting this really is, that not only are we reaching out and caring for Brett as our minister,
when it's been brought up that congregation members have been concerned that they have not felt the Holy Spirit. This is a faith, an individual faith, but we all must have the Holy Spirit within us to get to heaven. And in caring for our ministers, we're not only caring for Brett, but also for the whole congregation. We're all coming here to be fed
And we put a minister up when the congregation, when God leads us to do that. And there's also times where he likewise leads that minister might be taken down. So I just hope and pray that those of you that cannot see the love in it may be led to. This is a very
loving things you do to care for one another, and not only for Brett, but just in general. If you can't see the love in this, I pray that you can someday, that the Spirit is here, and the Spirit is speaking tonight, and I pray that you can see that. And when we reach out and care for one another in love, it's not
If we are concerned, we're not saying we don't want you. We're saying we want you to hear this and repent. And the love that is present that Jesus died on the cross for surpasses all. And to have that in our hearts,
There's no gift comparable. So I pray that you guys can hear the love. On the board level, I feel that you've acted very lovingly amongst your talking and reaching out and then deciding to bring it to the congregation.
reaching towards straying lambs, and I pray that those lambs that are straying can hear it. Can I also hear the gospel? Okay, Tim, suit yourself. We have heard from many speakers tonight, and there's obvious that there's very
brother and the advice of the old has been that if there is a minister that's causing division or causing whatever you want to call it that's not believing the same as we are we should not have them serve the congregation so I
I have heard this, there's a significant, there's a group, there are two groups in this room. Some who lovingly try to rebuke or point out things, and a second group that simply wants to defend someone.
I find that very troubling in God's kingdom that we go and rather than humbly accept, we go and defend a certain individual. I've seen that in this current division. I've seen it play over and over again. For instance, when John left the levels
said something to the effect that wanted to prove a point or something like that at some point. This is a far bigger situation than proving any points or anything like that.
The congregation has concerns, so therefore, I'm making the motion to remove Brett from speaking. All right, so we got a motion on the floor here. I don't know if we discussed
because it was late here, if there would be a motion which would require a vote. Did Keith cover that topic with you? No. Are we done with discussion? No, we're not. I just have to address the motion right now. We'll get to the rest of the people on the list. So, I had a few people call me in advance of this meeting.
asking if we were going to vote on whether or not the congregation wanted Brett to continue serving, that the request was that we would have a ballot, a closed ballot on that that would be counted and then cut back. Keith? So we do
available if the congregation desires to do that balance and if there is a vote we would have to have the sign in also okay okay so just for a quorum right okay so just so we understand that that
We'll have additional discussion both on this motion and what other people who are in line in queue to talk about. What I'd like to do is just for those Phoenix congregation members, if we do end up having a vote tonight on this, I'd like to see a show of hands supporting a sign in and a close ballot.
Those who would be in favor of that approach for voting, please raise your hand. I don't know, that's kind of weird. Leave them on, please. I just want to get a sense. So generally about 45 people. Okay, those opposed to that methodology for making a decision tonight, please raise your hand.
We have, not unanimous, but we do have an overwhelming majority who would prefer to, if we are going to have a vote on a motion, to do it via closed ballot. Keith, if you could think about the logistics of that, what it might take to have a vote tonight, and then we can, once we get, if the motion gets seconded and the congregation wants to move forward with that approach, then we'll have, hopefully, they'll be prepared for us.
Andy, you didn't ask if there would or would not be a show of hands as opposed to a closed vote. I did not ask that. I just asked about if we would like to have a closed ballot for this. Yeah, I understood what you said, but I think the other option is a show of hands. Maybe we should have a show of hands if people want to show their hands.
And that is true, Ken, I can't disagree with that, that we could change this into a conversation on whether or not we vote by show of hands or vote by closed ballot. Andy? Yes. So we would need 124 members here to be able to have the vote? Irrespective of. Right. Okay, so. So if we don't, you know, the other option would be at the annual meeting.
Did you catch that, Tim? Yeah, I'm fine. The motion dies if it's not seconded. Right. Well, that's true. The motion dies if it's not seconded. But if our bylaws state that we can't vote on this topic anyhow, I think the motion becomes an irrelevant motion at that point. Does Brett still want to speak?
Okay, so we'll take one thing at a time here, all right? So I think that, I don't think we have 124 members here tonight. But maybe just so we can qualify that, for those of you who are voting members of Phoenix congregation, could you please raise your hand? And Keith and Eric [surname unclear], can you guys try to do a count and see where we're at with how many Phoenix members we have here?
Oh boy.
I think you're adding up now, so you can put your hands down. Thank you. We're at 129 right now. What's that? Is that 100? We have 100?
You said we had 129? Okay. All right. So I kind of forget my protocols a little bit, but I think if there's a motion on the floor, we need the motion seconded. If there's a second to the motion, and then we'll have...
we'll have Scott [surname unclear], Neal [surname unclear], Ben [surname unclear], and Russell [surname unclear], who asked to have a speaking turn. The floor will remain open to have discussion on this motion also then. Okay, so we have a motion that Brett would be removed from being a speaker for the Phoenix Laestadian Lutheran Church. Is there a second to that motion? Okay, we have a second with Mark [surname unclear].
All right. Okay, so we're back to now our discussion, so we'll move back to Scott [surname unclear] next. And after Scott will be Neal [surname unclear]. First of all, I'm
I've heard a lot of comments tonight, and the comments have been, a lot of them have been geared towards one group or another group. I guess my question first is, why is there another group?
Why do we feel that, you know, I've heard people say that they don't want to be part of one group or another. But I have a feeling that some of the people that are attending these other Bible studies and these other things like that are people that I know very well and have considered them brothers and sisters in faith. And I'm curious as to
why there's a separation between us and a need for a second Bible study or things of that nature. I also heard a brother speak about this. This feeling that everybody's attacking somebody and I will tell you I do not hold it that way at all. I know there's been
Many times in my life that I've needed correction and guidance. And God has sent his escorts here to me to help me on my walk of faith. And this is not something that I could ever do by myself. That we're here to carry one another and carry each other in love.
to help understand where this division is and help correct.
The last thing I wanted to talk about was I know somebody brought up that the board has the authority to do the actions that the board did. And I would also like to add that part of that. Authority is also the responsibility. The board is trusted to.
point out that danger and bring it before the congregation. I feel they did so as best they could. And, you know, I think there was a question that, well, why don't we just let it go and why not dig any further and so on and so forth? Well, if we're going to have people, you know, we see in the world that there's a lot of division the way people are teaching kids about
all sorts of different topics, whether it's homosexuality or all these different things. My worry is here if we have people that are in a position of being a servant of the word and they're not believing the same way I am, should they be teaching our children? Should they be carrying God's word? And if they don't believe the same way
I know I said one last thing, but I'm gonna add one more and that's that. Somebody had also talked about, you know, sending the microphone down the pews and asking everybody how I believe. And I think it's our duty
I'm open to doing that, and if anybody, if I have offended anybody by my words tonight, I ask that you would come and talk to me or tell me openly in front of everybody else. I do not feel like this is an inquisition. It is simply all of us trying to better understand and get to heaven. Andy. Yes. Can we call one more time? I've recruited some help.
I see you got younger people, too. Oh, you confused me.
Okay, is the count over, Keith? Okay. All right, next speaking turn, Neal [surname unclear]. I'm good. Oh, you're good, okay. After that, Ben Wuollet. Then, [name unclear] will be following.
I wanted to touch on the part where the comment that said it may feel that we're pinning Brett into a corner to force him to speak and maybe that we're even personally attacking him. Maybe there are a few comments that were made tonight that may seem like that. I believe that we're not looking to attack him personally, that we're looking at the position and
We are all equal in the eyes of God, but as a servant, whether it's a speaker, a board member, Bible class teacher, or even Sunday school teacher, you are in a position of influence. It's not a position of power, but a position of influence. So we're looking at that position to see, is that position doing the job that the congregation had asked it to do? At work, we say, don't attack the person, but rather the position.
it's not good to personally attack somebody. And I think majority of the comments tonight have been looking at the position and seeing is that position, the position of the congregation still wants to be open or rather should that person be taken down from that position and that position could be refilled with another individual. So that's the way I would invite to look at it. I want,
I hope that Brett understands that the majority of the people here I know are looking out for him in love. And if he continues to speak or if he is taken down, I would hope and pray that there's that acceptance of what the congregation's wishes are. And whether the decision is to take him down or to continue to speak to
and believe that there was a speaker brother that said at one of the previous annual meetings that sometimes the speakers need to sit in the pews to learn as well. And they can sometimes learn more by sitting in the pews and listening to some of the other speaker brothers. So I would just pray for that peace for you, Brett, and Marita.
Yeah, I've been sitting here listening to Phoenix Church and the topic what we got here, we went through the same thing in Minnesota, it was a year ago. There was another speaker there who was asked to reveal how he believes on these issues and he never did. So,
The congregation took him up the speaking list. And the saddest thing is that now he joined to the Minneapolis, so he couldn't humble himself. So this issue what we've been talking here is not, it's pretty serious. It's a life and death spiritually. So other thing I thought on the same thing that
We have also the Heavenly Father who is in charge. When somebody don't humble himself, you know, he see that what happens in heart and then the person will leave the congregation and
So there is no testimony that I can show. Andy? Hang on. Can Ann carry this right before you? Did you have a comment? Okay. Ken Forstie? I've been listening to a lot of his comments tonight, and I have to say amen to most of them.
One thing I don't think we would have addressed, maybe I missed it, but we could advise Brett that he also has the freedom to ask to be relieved by the congregation if he feels that he's caused contention or if he's caused questions about his speaking or whatever. He does have that freedom to ask the congregation.
Eric will be next, but I'm just going to take a moment to give an interjection for myself, which is that as we consider these matters, as it's been expressed of grave importance, not only from the spiritual perspective of soul care and the serving from the pulpit, but also the temper,
And I just want to remind everyone that the board asking Brett to rest until this meeting, please don't consider that action to be a statement about whether or not those of us who serve as board members believe Brett should be serving or not. Okay? That was done because this is, as board members, we felt like this was what we needed to do because this is a congregational matter, not a matter that resides only with the boards.
However, you've heard from many of the board members who have spoke their psalm about their personal concerns, and those are concerns that should be not given any more gravity or any more weight because a person is a minister or a board member or a pastor. Those are comments that were made from humble believers
speaking their psalm about this topic. So I just want to make sure we remember that, that this is a congregational matter, not a matter of what does the other ministers think or the board members think, short of the fact that your other ministers and board members and everyone here tonight is likely wanting to believe and is being carried as a brother or sister in faith. Okay, so Eric [Lahti]. Was Ann next? No, Ann's next.
And since you didn't have me. Okay. Just making sure. Yes, and you're being all taken care of. So I just want to touch on maybe on that comment that Risto just made that we have a very serious matter here. And also to touch on some of the comments that have been brought up tonight. So this discussion tonight was brought forth as a
a time to discuss the congregation concerns about our speaker brother, Brett Rintamaki. And I know there were some questions about the church law of Christ. Was it followed? Was it not followed? There was a comment that it has been followed. And one thing, I don't want to muddy the waters and maybe I'm making it too complicated. Maybe I'm too simple. I don't know what's going on here, but
But if we look at that church law of Christ, it does say in that last step, which if we're here in that last step, it's a very serious matter. It says, and if you neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church. But if you neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man, a publican. I think we should be very clear on what this meeting is here tonight.
Is this a matter of the church law of Christ? I think if it was, maybe those matters would have been brought forth to the congregation as it says, but if you will not hear me, take with you one or two more than the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. There's been some comments here tonight that Brett's sermons don't feed because he's of a different spirit.
There's been some comments that says he believes differently than the ones that spoke up today. I hope and pray that those that have brought those matters up go and speak to Brett sometime after this meeting. It's a very serious matter. I've had...
many conversations with Brett, and I touched on that before, that I feel like his speaking has reflected what my personal conversations have been with him. I haven't heard anything different from the pulpit as to what I've visited with him on. I also, one of my thoughts earlier was on the fruits of
And we talked, and I know it got brought up many times even after my comment about his fruits, and I think maybe it would be good to just read that portion from Galatians.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, cleanliness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, end beings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like.
of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections of endless. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. And some of those same...
I guess fruits are touched on in Timothy where it talks about a speaker, or in Timothy it's referenced a bishop. It says, this is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach.
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy or filthy lurker, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous, one that rules his own house, having his children's subjection with all gravity. And that's all I have. Okay. Next up, Ron [surname unclear].
kind of put my thoughts together because I've just been listening. I don't have any personal experiences with Brett in the sense of we've been part of when he spoke. And so I don't have any comments to say about what
but just listening to the conversations and some of the discussions that people are about tonight, I guess one of my thoughts is that if this is a discussion about whether or not he still can serve the congregation, it sounds like there still is a lot of people that feel that he can't. And if I had to make a vote, that's the only thing I can go off of is it seems like a lot of people here are not feeling the same spirit as they did before over at, and that's something that should be discussed.
And I also think it's important that I don't feel like this is a discussion of Brett's faith. I don't think we've talked about some of those things at a personal level. And I don't think we should take it to that point. I think what Eric said about the church law of Christ is serious. And I think it's important to remember that, too, that whether or not Brett is taken down, he still can be a member of the congregation and still can be believing.
And I think that's important to remember even for me when we make these kinds of votes because I have a lot of fear for making that kind of put my hand up or just take somebody down because it is a serious thing. It's important. And somebody made a comment earlier about four out of five. And I kind of thought, do we work like that here in faith? Is it four out of five?
Or is it seven out of 10? Or is it this is how we believe and this is how we feel? And I don't know how to answer that question, but I think that it's more of a we all believe the same way versus four to five ministers think this and one of the five thinks that. And I would think that if I was in that position of a minister and I was the one that felt differently, I would wonder why. And I can speak from personal experience, too.
that there's been times when I haven't really understood why the congregation has made a decision to go one way or the other. But I've accepted the congregation's position as the Holy Spirit, and I've come to maybe accept that and learn over time. And I think maybe with the speaker, it might be a little bit different if they have a decision or something that they feel differently that impacts the congregation.
Maybe they should be taken down and let them find out in their own time. And that's not a reflection of their beliefs or their ability to be a believer, but just that in that time, in that moment, they're not in the right position to serve congregation because they don't have the correct understanding or they don't have enough understanding. Because sometimes I feel very strongly about one position.
And I think we all have those weaknesses and we all have those different temptations. And if one of us has that at that time in our life, we shouldn't be in that position where we have to try that. And from that point, I guess I would think that we all kind of look at those things and determine whether or not it's a good time for him to be a speaker to help him with his faith life, not just ours, but also his. All right. Shannon [surname unclear].
Myself, I don't think this is about the church law of Christ with Brett serving our congregation. This is about whether he just speaks for our congregation, if he's carried in the love of the congregation as a speaker, not as somebody that's sitting in the pew. But as far as Eric [Lahti's] last comment that he had, myself, personally, I feel...
There's two groups here in this church. One's believing and one's not. Troubles me. And I don't think one side's going to be able to talk the other side into believing one way or another. It's only through the work of God that that can be done. And through listening ears and wanting to believe. But
As far as Brett knows, that's what it is, speaking and just... I don't know how to say it any more than that. It feels like that division is already here. Okay, Glenn, was it Rick?
Just thought to comment on maybe what was just touched on in one of the board meetings which I've attended. Many of them, but not all of them. But I guess I've thought in my own self that I've seen servants that are desired to serve the Phoenix congregation. And
This is a question of whether a servant serves the congregation. And there are certainly a greater importance as whether someone is on the way to heaven, but this meeting is on whether someone would serve the congregation. Hi, Molly [surname unclear].
Someone kind of touched on it earlier, maybe multiple people did, but I'll just take it a little bit further. Regarding the Bible verses that are brought up here, I kind of am looking at those as the Bible sort of being weaponized.
I used to work at a huge company, a huge corporation, and my manager there read the Bible four times. Now, while I might have asked her where maybe something was in the Bible as far as the historical reference and whatever, maybe what day Jesus went here or there or whatever, I probably wouldn't have asked her for spiritual guidance because just because she knows the Bible doesn't mean that she has the Holy Spirit and she can explain spiritual matters to me. She can't. She's not believing. And...
And so just because somebody can read Bible verses, I can open the Bible and read verses to the whole church. It doesn't mean I'm applying spiritual understanding and so forth as far as giving a sermon. And so I think that's where maybe some of this is being missed. The Holy Spirit needs to be applied, and that's how we understand it. Probably most of the Bible I don't even understand.
Like, I don't read it because I don't understand a lot of it. I have to listen to the Holy Spirit to explain it to me. And so I get worried when they bring up all these Bible verses because I think they're just, it's like, well, here it says this, here it says this, here it says this. So this proves our point. You know, we're into proving points here. I don't think God or Jesus would want us to bring up all these verses and use their words to prove points. I don't think that's what this is about.
Definitely was not just eager to come here tonight. Lots of doubts, lots of fears on my mind. First, if I could hear that gospel.
Speak from the heart. I'm going to try to speak from the heart. I'm not going to pull up Bible verses. I've heard from different people that, oh, you can't talk about this because we didn't name it this. Or we didn't... You can't have spiritual topics. We didn't name that. We didn't call it that. I don't know. When you... I guess if I was...
dying and about 10 seconds to live. And there was another believer there.
We could have it even though there was no agenda or topic on this. This is a serious matter. This has been planned. Why it didn't come out right away from a comment earlier? Well, it was Christmas and everything else. There was a lot of things going on, so they tried to get this. And even to talk to Brett, have people talk to Brett and see how he feels on these matters.
You know, one thing I struggle with is the board has brought up that they've tried to reach out. He has not been coming to the board meetings. No, ministers don't have to go to board meetings. But they're encouraged, and they usually, you know, will come. And so when I hear, oh, he's busy, he's busy, well...
When's faith a priority? To get to heaven. When does that become a priority? Did I think tonight was going to be a moment to see if Brett's going to still serve? No, but that's what's come out of it. Everybody has spoken. You hear...
I know it's a struggle to words, but it's almost like there's campaigns for Brett. And we often joke, you know, you'll do anything but be a minister. You know, I'll do anything versus doing that job. And so...
It's going to go to vote and we'll find out if it's God's plan or not. It's not one individual. If the Spirit all speaks and the vote comes in and Brett's no longer serving, then I would say amen to that. That's the spirit of the congregation speaking. How long do we have to wait? We've known...
The spiritual battle's been going on for years and years and years. There's certain LLC board members that have had heart attacks. They've had health concerns too. So do we just forget about them? Hey, that heart attack didn't happen. You know, I mean, it's a battle out there. It's a serious, serious battle. You know, I've also heard in discussions that
Faith comes by hearing, too. So if the vote comes in and Brett is relieved of his duties, he's not getting kicked out. Come and listen. That gave us two years. We can listen. Lonnie [surname unclear].
is sad. Tonight we've been here and the question was raised of, is this a church law of Christ meeting? My thoughts go a couple of different
when the board decided to call this meeting. The meeting was to discuss whether or not, I mean, to discuss the concerns, and if the concerns are valid, whether or not that would serve.
And I guess my own understanding on this has been and still is that the congregation calls servants and the congregation can also ask servants to rest. And not meaning that now you are no longer
child of God. So to me it seems like to debate the church law of Christ tonight is, you know, just to go start debating it even rather than discussing it
that now have perfectly followed the words of scriptures it makes me sad because it puts
Now, everything I do has to be exactly according to the word of God. And it should be. But I know I can't. So we begin to expect perfection from imperfect beings.
imperfect people. So that's my thoughts on that church love of Christ issue. But it also seems, from some of the comments tonight,
And there have been others who have boldly stated that there are two groups here tonight. God's kingdom.
It teaches us. And it teaches us of all things. That's what the disciples were told. So if we lose hope that the Spirit is in our midst to teach and to guide, to renew,
We don't have much of anything to stand on anymore. Without the Holy Spirit of God, we're on our own. And we can try and make those personal lives of faith
I also had a coworker who could quote scriptures from any place in the Bible you asked him to. But he's not believing either. Quoting the scriptures
kingdom he hadn't been able to humble his heart so it's a sad place where we are tonight first of all that we would even have to
But what's even more sad is this, that there does appear to be two groups. Whether we say we don't want groups or not, it seems there are.
And that makes me sad. And it also brings doubts and fears, worries, that where do I stand? How do others know where I stand? The only way they will know is what the unity of the Spirit
and with being free to discuss how we understand and how we believe. The board members have spoken some of perhaps difficult board meetings. They're difficult for more than one
And then through the discussion, they have been free to bring their own understanding, their own visits that they've had with congregation members, not by name, but simply that these are the concerns or the joys, whichever they may be, have been asked to be related to the board.
And sometimes, as with this topic, it becomes difficult then to discuss. And it's difficult because each of us finds in ourself that which is sinful, that which is weak, that which is poor. But through the discussion and through the
speak of it tonight. And I've been at many other board meetings and have been able to witness even how the Spirit has brought unity. Unity of spirit, unity of understanding. And it's been precious to see that.
So those are my thoughts, my worries, and my fears. And I would ask that, can I yet believe that gospel of forgiveness tonight? Okay, Ryan, quite a step. And after that, Steve, carry me.
Just to follow up on what a few people have talked about, I too don't necessarily view this as a church law of Christ matter. I don't know if the underlying matters are such that there's care needed, but my view on this from a
standpoint of a board member has always been that we serve the congregation, we have a spiritual responsibility to the congregation, and I feel that there's been concern. And we agonized over it in many board meetings, and I felt that this was a matter for the congregation. It's not something we as a board have to
Shoulder ourselves or should shoulder ourselves. That's a matter for the congregation to discuss. And like others have mentioned, just whether Brett serves us as a speaker. I don't think that's us looking into his heart and saying he's not a believer. I just view it as the same way that speakers have put up that the congregation is led by the Holy Spirit. And that's how I view this as well.
One thing when Cheryl was talking about the congregation, it triggered in my mind, and that's something I share with my conversation with them, but I feel like on a...
Big level, this division that's in Zion is, I feel there is two groups. And one group preaches grace, but doesn't want to preach the truth of God's word. And the other group, I feel, teaches like Jesus. We know that Jesus came full of grace and truth. That the other group, in the way I believe, has taught both of those things. To me, that
I've heard it said that the congregation is the pillar and ground of truth, and I haven't personally heard that message from Brett, not meaning that he doesn't believe that or whatnot, but I just haven't heard that, and especially in these times where I feel that there is that division and it seems like it surrounds...
A lot of it surrounds that issue. It would be nice to hear our speakers speak on that, and I feel like I've heard it from the other speakers. They speak both of this work that Jesus did for us and died for us, and also that truth that resides in the congregation and the Holy Spirit that leads and guides the congregation. So, and I would...
I would encourage Brett again, hopefully he can speak on these matters. I encourage him and I talk to him to speak his song. Hopefully he still has that strength to do that. Steve [surname unclear]. Steve [surname unclear]. For about the last three years,
And I haven't been able to find it. And the only answer I've been given is that the minister is treated like all the other believers that we use the church law of Christ. And that...
be free to do that. You're not even accusing them. You're trying to understand what it was. And if that causes confusion still, and you seem to have a difference of opinion,
get that so that the Bible says so that every word may be established so you're putting some real clarity to the issues of concern this is very important and then if you still have this disagreement two different understandings then you do bring it to the congregation but now you come to the congregation prepared
It's either this issue or it's several of these issues. And this is what this Bible has to say on these matters. So that we are rooted in this. And we are rooted in this church-long Christ. Yeah, I understand that we don't always follow the church-long Christ because we're humans and we do make errors and we forget these things. But we still adhere to that belief very strongly.
Bruce [surname unclear]. When a person is put up to speak, there's gifts that are seen. And one thing to remember is that the gifts are God's, and they belong to God and the congregation. They do not belong to the individual person. And if those gifts, if for whatever reason,
those gifts, either perhaps people have misused them or they have not used them, or there's other reasons why those gifts are no longer evident. That a person could ask, and this is the discussion we have here that we're having, and the difficulty I have is when a person is put up, not one of them has come to the congregation and said, man, what gifts do
but perhaps the gifts are just not there. And that's okay. I look around the room and there's more non-speakers than there are speakers. We don't all have those gifts. And maybe those gifts are just not there, and that's okay. There's other things that people can do to serve the congregation. So I think all of us should consider that when we're considering these matters, especially the speakers, that you didn't look inward and say, boy, do I got the gifts. I don't think any one of you. I've never heard a speaker say that.
But then when it comes up to, you know, maybe it's time to not serve, or there's some concern that the sheep are restless, just ask to rest then. That would be simple. Instead of show me where I'm wrong, or show him where he's wrong, as we've heard from other speeches. We haven't heard Brett speak, but I encourage you all to just think about that, that where are these gifts, and whose gifts are they? Amen.
Eric, before you take your speaking turn, it's 10 o'clock. We've been here for four hours. Well, I've been here for three and a half, but probably most of you have been here for four hours. And certainly, this is an important topic, and we wouldn't necessarily want to curtail discussion as we consider this matter at hand, especially with the motion on the floor.
I think we should probably consider maybe, let's see how the comments go over the next 10 or 15 minutes, then think if we want to take a vote tonight, which it sounds like we will be, assuming that there's enough people. We had 127 members in attendance. We needed 125, so some have chosen to leave home. We would find that out as we went through the check-in process and see if a vote would be held. But let's go for another 10 or 15 minutes if need be on comments.
and then we can address what we want to do next. Mine's quick. I just wanted to say thanks to Shannon and Glenn and Laurie and Ryan for clarifying on that. I wasn't trying to debate the church law of Christ. I was just making sure that it was clear to the congregation and
for myself to know what this meeting, you know, the intent of the meeting is. And I think it would be helpful for Brett to know too. And so I just wanted to say thanks for clarifying that, that it is just a matter of Brett speaking and not a matter of him believing. Next is Doug [surname unclear] in the back. By the way, Eric, I had, I struggled a lot with this topic at one of our board meetings because
Brett's faith, and it has been discussed, you know, the topic of how someone believes can have an obvious, obviously be part of a decision about whether a congregation would want Brett to continue serving or any minister to continue serving. But the same guidance was given to me at the board meeting, and it needed to be given very clearly to me because of how emotional I was about this topic, that
that if a person is asked not to serve in a particular way, it doesn't automatically state that they're in unbelief. We all get asked to serve and then maybe we're asked not to serve at some point. But that the topic of faith and belief could be separate, could be a separate topic.
I just wanted to re-say what we've heard a few people say now is if and when we come to this vote, Brett, we are not binding you in any way that thought that we were. It's not a matter of binding you. Just to take you down as a speaker. And then, to me it seems like the times we got right now, I don't know what the disease rules are.
do this vote, if we got time, I see people leaving now, whether we still have a quorum, if we need a quorum, then I don't know, maybe the board members know, but it would make it a lot easier if Brett would just resign or step down. And if we can't do the vote tonight, we have an annual meeting and we'll have
quorum there. Everybody will be signed in. We'll have their names and we can put it on the section where we discuss ministers and it's part of the agenda. If we can't add it to that, well, we can always add it under new business, I guess. That's all I had.
Yeah, I did bring up the topic of this vote and how close we were to a number of a quorum because as you pointed out, I got seen probably at least five to 10 people who've had to leave, I'm sure, because the meeting's on later and later. So I think it would be unlikely that we'd
Let's make it with a new voice. Yeah, I came here, this meeting, I wasn't too sure. To this meeting I knew that it was about matters in God's kingdom and so on and so forth. I came here to want to hear what was taking place. I didn't know that it was particularly about a very intimate yet person.
But anyway, there's many doubts and fears and shortcomings on my part. I still believe in God. Anyway, I just wanted to, I heard the addressing and I was listening to what was taking place here. I heard very sober voices and come from the creation of God.
And I've heard some other voices that were maybe a bit lost or something, but that's here and there. But I would say that I do definitely feel that, and it was touched on, that there is two...
There would be two groups. There is one group that belongs to God in God's kingdom. It has always been that the kingdom of God has been the kingdom of God. And the Holy Spirit has been the one that taught in that group. That is the believers in God's kingdom. And here we have also that kingdom of God.
Now, we know that there has always been other groups, even from the beginning of time. And until the end of time, there will be yet groups that, when God opens and the heaven's doors open, like it says in Revelation, they'll remember that we're.
And they'll say, they'll, how we say that, there'll be two men in a mountain. One will be taken, one will be left. So, two men in the sea. One will be taken, one will be left. Or two men in the bed. Two in the bed, one will be taken. One is believing, and one is not. One belongs to the Holy Spirit, and is believing in that Holy Spirit.
So we don't have to doubt this here. It is here in God's kingdom. And we know that the end of the soul is also there to be with us.
And we also make many errors even as children of God. None of us can say that, look at and feel that they have been able to remain and live perfectly in life as a God, as a child. That's the word of God teaches us, the way we should live. But we fall many, many times. We'll continue to fall. But we need that
that precious gospel and we can offer that precious gospel that we can still believe in forgiving Jesus. Now concerning this Brett matter, I think that there is that voice here that sounded so good and that had very many concerns and if they felt that Brett should be maybe stopped, that he would not speak here anyway, here in this country,
and he would not be used. And then, yet more importantly, I would speak to Brett. Listen to what you have heard from so many. And there has been many who spoke honestly and about your undying soul and also for the congregation of God. But listen to that and
I believe it seems like the correct thing would be that you would want to step down from this place and just lay aside all your sins and believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name in precious blood. It seems like you're walking in a fog. I haven't known and heard all the things, but everything I've heard so far, it seems like you have been walking in a fog, not with a clean heart.
That's all I have to say and I just hope that you can feel and trust in the kingdom of God and that the word of God and the Holy Spirit would reveal that. I have nothing more to say. Ryan [surname unclear].
briefly mentioned that if there is that voice or that he hears the voice that that there is that concern and I feel same way if I would
But I would hear that same echo and churn about me being a speaking speaker that I would hope and pray that I would have the strength to ask myself to rest. You know, I would not want to cause any stumbling blocks for any of you brothers or sisters. And
is my hope and prayer that God will [reveal, Brett], just like Mike mentioned before. Another thing is that the spirit, that there is only one spirit.
There is only one God of creation. God, if he saw losses, he can keep any one of us in his kingdom. If we are not obedient, he will not continue calling us. He will close that door like only he can.
I think if you have any one last speaking turn here, I got to have a quick visit with Keith about next steps on the scope piece. So I'll be back up here in a moment.
Okay.
Keith and Andy are back there discussing, but I would recommend, I know there's a motion on the floor, maybe we have to vote on that first, but that we just wait. We have an annual meeting coming up. It feels like there has been a lot of people that left. I think the congregation has had a chance to speak and maybe think about it over a few weeks. I guess my hope is that it appeals to me like the overwhelming...
The direction of the congregation is that Brett wouldn't speak, but it would be easiest if he would resign. But if not, then we do have an annual meeting coming up. Maybe we could do our ratification of speakers. We could deal with it then.
Tom [surname unclear]. I had the opportunity to visit with Brett this afternoon with much fear.
but we had a short discussion and I told him and encouraged him to come to tonight's meeting to hear what the Holy Spirit has to say and my heart has said amen to most of the speeches tonight.
throughout the congregation has spoken the Holy Spirit I have felt is calling like a few comments have been made that even a comment you made to me today was you don't have to speak that you can get to heaven sitting in the pews listening
When I see you walk in tonight, my heart rejoiced that God called you here to hear what the Spirit says. I would, again, as many others have spoken, encourage you to speak. And from my many fears and doubts, can I hear that gospel?
On that, of course, the topic, I think a couple of congregants have suggested that if Brett would want to resign from speaking,
But in all fairness to Brett, and with due respect to how our congregation works, we don't have a quorum. We don't have enough people to accept Brett's resignation. That is only something that can be done with the congregation. But of course, from the perspective of Brett not having speaking terms between now and whenever this topic would come up again,
I think that's something that the board can continue, you can discuss and visit with Brett about between now and whenever we would meet again next. There's also the discussion around would this be a topic at the annual meeting? And for better or for worse, I think we rarely get a quorum at our annual meeting. So I don't know if it came to the point of
of Brett's resignation or Brett being asked not to serve anymore as a speaker in this congregation, we'd have to just make sure that enough people came so we had obviously the correct representation for that discussion. Now I forgot, someone just raised their hand, but I forgot who it was. Can you raise your hand again? Over here. Okay, Keith.
So just to clarify, I don't think we need a quorum for a pastor to resign. If the congregation is going to suspend them or remove them, we need a quorum of the congregation. Alright, so I don't know, Brett, what are your thoughts on this?
I've got one comment on the quorum there. You might want to look at the bylaws because the quorum might be that the quorum of the members present instead of the quorum of everybody on the roster. I'll leave that to Keith to review that back there. Brett, would you like to speak and turn this topic right now?
I guess I'm a little uncertain how to approach this. I've heard some things tonight that Brett believes this way or that way that haven't been
inaccurate picture. And I don't know how to address all those. And I'm not trying to justify myself. I guess maybe the easiest way to start this is to go through the timeline from my perspective.
Shannon mentioned a meeting in June. We did get together and visit, kind of unrelated matter, and then did visit about some of these topics of today's time. In June, I wasn't at the board meeting. We had company in town.
And a day or two, I don't remember, after that board meeting, one of the board members contacted me and said that somebody had come with some concerns, and they discussed it at the board meeting, and they would like to set up a meeting with two board members and a speaker.
I asked what the concerns were and this individual did not know or at least stated that he did not know. I felt I was kind of put in an awkward spot that I asked the board member if I have concerns about them and I approached the board
and the board sends two board members and a speaker to visit with him about my concerns, which they aren't aware of. Isn't it kind of an awkward position to be in? The request was to set up a day and time to meet and
We had a lot going on in our life at that moment. My mother-in-law was in the hospital, ended up in the hospital. My father-in-law was getting a pacemaker implanted. The baby was with a fever and I was three days at the station, so 72 hours in a row. The last thing on my mind, honestly, was setting up a meeting.
The following week I had to serve a Bible class and the board member approached me about setting up this meeting. I would back up, so the phone call the previous week I asked that
It could be something I said, something I misunderstood, something the listener misunderstood, but I felt that the healthiest way to approach the matter would be to visit with whoever had the concern. The following week after Bible class, we discussed, and my request at that point
that, again, I would like to visit with whoever has these concerns. And if any of the board members had concerns, if they would please reach out to me. And this board member asked if that was the message they should bring back to the board meeting, and I said, yes, please.
I heard nothing through the rest of June, July, August. I was on my way back from Michigan. We were in Minnesota. A board member reached out to me after, I guess the day after the August board meeting.
which I wasn't able to attend because I was out of town. And at that point, I had poor cell service, and I said as much, and they said nothing specific that we'll catch up when we get back into town. This individual was one that
I thought coming to meet with me in June or wanted to meet. But when he said nothing specific, I guess I took the word for what it was. There was a speaker and board members meeting shortly after I got back from my trip. I was gone for maybe a month this summer.
My schedule has caused much conflict and concern with people and there's nothing I can really do about it. My schedule is set for the next two years. I'm on for 48 hours and I'm off for 96. Unfortunately, I miss a lot of things. Birthdays, holidays, so forth.
Again, I was coming back from a month-long vacation. I do have a business that I also run on my days off. And I wasn't sure what the week would bring when I got back home as I had to pay back some shifts that I traded so I could go on vacation.
that the point of that meeting was not brought to me 100% truthfully. It was to discuss about the events taking place in North American Zion, but that whole meeting
And I expressed this to a couple of the board members, maybe back in October, September. In September, one of the board members reached out to me as a fellow traveler to discuss the way and the journey.
And I asked that we could meet in person because I didn't want to try to discuss through text messages. And so we were able to meet and we had, I felt, a very nice visit. It was my understanding that he was going to relate the discussion back to the next board meeting.
which, again, I was on shift for. After that board meeting, two of the board members came to visit at the request of the board to discuss the discussion that took place at the board meeting.
And if I understood correctly, the thought of this visit was that there would be a congregational discussion. Now this was in the middle of October and I still had not heard what the concerns were or been approached by anybody with any concerns. From that discussion,
It was my understanding that the board was feeling at a loss of what to do. And we felt, those of us gathered there that evening at our house, that perhaps we should visit about the church love of Christ.
still feeling the weight that the board was expressing the next morning I was scheduled to serve. And I asked from the pulpit if those with concerns could
There was no reason for the board to be burdened. And there's been this thought of freedom lost. I would say there's freedom lost for each one of us. It was my humble prayer that
that day when I asked that those with concerns would come visit. After the service, there was some that came to visit, some with words of encouragement,
One asked if I was in unity with the congregation, but I don't know what they were asking 100% because I suppose with the commotion going on, they moved on. I appreciate the fact that they came to speak. As Mark mentioned,
visited that day. When Mark came to speak to me, he said he did not have concerns with my sermons. He spoke for a bit and then asked if I was in a other group. And my answer was I wasn't aware that there was a heresy.
I'm aware that there's many misunderstandings going on right now. And to say what is of a false spirit, I guess for me personally, that is, there are indeed two spirits, the spirit of God
spirit of the devil. I think it is a serious matter. I'm not ignoring the fact that there are battles in God's kingdom. I have not been a part of
And I do not want to base my actions on secondhand information, hearsay, and rumors. So after that
service in October, there was another meeting scheduled for the following Tuesday, which I was not able to attend because I was on shift. But I received a text message, which I will read. I'll leave the individual's name out. But maybe this will give perspective
what was on my heart and mind. Good morning, Brett. My heart rejoices that God gave you the strength and desire to care for matters both known and unknown. I can only imagine what a trial it was to have unclear concerns stated about you by unknown members of the congregation. At our board meeting tonight, I expect we will discuss how the board should react to the congregants.
following a similar path in the future. It is my personal concern that some members of our congregation may be erring on the side of dryness and being demanding. My personal testimony is that God has continued to keep you in his flock, and that the righteousness of life will continue to follow the righteousness of faith.
If burdens become heavy and you need someone to talk to, I sincerely hope I can be a trusted and compassionate travel companion with you, as I am sure you will be for me. One other item I have also asked on your behalf that others on the board reach out to you to take care of offenses they may have caused. I pray that they do, and if they do not have the strength, I pray that God
would provide you with a gracious heart that overlooks their offenses. I hold no ill feelings. So my understanding was, at the end of October, based off this text messaging,
congregational discussion on the Church Law of Christ. The news that I received in December that I was taken off the schedule came as a surprise to me. This isn't a position that I desire
But I desire to be obedient to God and His will. I don't feel it is my place to say whether I serve or not.
If God asks me to serve, I try to humbly serve. For me, the role of a servant, as simply as I can view it, is that I've been asked to preach God's word.
and it is my prayer that it would be preached in purity. Christ commanded us to preach for all nations, all creatures, all people. Paul wrote unto Timothy to preach in season and out of season. The sower of the seed goes forth and spreads it on all types of soil.
Christ asked Peter if he loved him more than his disciples. Peter said, yea, Lord, you know that I love you. Jesus' words were to feed my sheep. I personally can't make a judgment. All who God has called or chosen
If asked to serve, the desire is to serve. There is one hope, one faith, one God.
There are so many topics that we could discuss, but perhaps if one has a question, what I believe or think or my opinion, I would open the invitation to come visit with me.
I don't discount the battles that are taking place, but we are all sinful beings. Our sure foundation is Christ.
The congregation is the pillar and ground of truth. So the duty of the congregation is to uphold God's word. And we would uphold God's word in purity. That is not to say that we as individuals
can't err. We as groups of people can err. We as congregations can err. We believe in a triune God, the Father,
These three are one. I think it is a place to be careful when we start to use the Spirit and say that the Spirit led this or that
It is also a place of watching to see that the Spirit has not led. The Spirit is one part of the Godhead. Do we want to put ourselves in the place of God? Jesus said that the Comforter would come
and bring all things, teach all things and bring remembrance to those things which Christ has taught. The Spirit of God dwells, as the Bible tells, in each child of God.
We have these gifts which God has given. We have services. We have the gospel. We have fellowship, camps. All these gifts, confession and so forth. God has given these gifts
so that our faith could remain in the center of that field. But when we think of the Spirit and its work,
and righteousness before God through our Savior, Jesus Christ. The Spirit does not reveal something different than what Christ has taught. When Christ was here on this earth,
He said, he that hath an ear, let him hear. Let him hear what Christ is teaching. When Christ gave those words to our brother John on the Isle of Patmos in the book of Revelations, he said, he that hath an ear,
Let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches. Christ was the resurrected Christ. He was in heaven. And in the Spirit he spoke unto John those words which to write. That Spirit is still revealed.
And so I will be honest with you because this topic of serving different congregations in Minnesota has been a topic. I don't understand why the decision went the way it did. I'm not going to
But to me, it seems that it's in conflict with God's word. God's word instructs to go preach. Though there may be some that are erring, can we judge a whole congregation? I don't know that. There's a very
serious picture given christ said when he comes at the end of time you all say unto those you fed me when i was hungry you clothed me when i was naked you visited me in prison and they ask
Lord, when have we done those things? And his reply is that when you have done a month of the least of mine. But for those who did not feed, visit, loathe, what happened? They were cast.
That is a place that I hope none of us would want to be. Our Heavenly Father is a patient God. His time is not our time. His ways are not our ways.
I am content to say thy will be done. It is God's battle and he can look into the heart of each and every one of us. May God have mercy on us all.
And for my many failings, doubts, if I have caused confusion, whatever my sin-cropped portion has failed in,
I would ask if I could hear that gospel, may I yet believe. I would also like to preach that gospel unto you. Lift up your heart.
given in Jesus name in precious atonement blood this is not a battle as we heard against flesh the devil has been successful in
How is it that we infight against this enemy? Our fleshly portion, the world and the enemy of souls.
we have his word as our guide. Through his love, he sent his only son. Who did that work on our behalf? Through him we have
Son and daughter, be of good cheer. Thy sins are forgiven thee. Let us each look within all ourselves
daily as christ instructed pick up that cross and follow him i've heard a couple of comments that i've preached grace and
I guess I would like to visit more on those matters. I feel that God's Word contains both grace and truth. God's Word is that two-edged sword. So when it is preached, His Word is preached,
The law is meant for the one that is not a child of God. The gospel is meant for the child of God and for the one that is outside of God's kingdom so that they would be also able to experience this joy that a child of God can own.
the forgiveness of sin. I guess I don't remember what other comments may be, but I would encourage you, brother and sister, if you have questions, concerns,
Outside of those couple concerns that I mentioned earlier, I have not been approached with concerns. Unless I have forgotten one or two individuals, I guess I would encourage you to speak up. I, to this day, don't know what these concerns were
It was my understanding that it was from a sermon. The timeline that I gave you is the timeline that I went through. And so I was honestly confused.
And I mentioned this when I received the call. It felt that matters were heading 180 degrees the other direction. So the events have taken place and I hold no hard feelings
May the congregation decide. I guess I would ask that that not be asked of me to carry that decision. In my own mind, it could be something that I wonder if I made the right decision or not.
If the congregation chooses to have me rest, I rest. And if the congregation chooses to have me speak, I'll try to speak. And I would ask that you would carry me and my family in prayer. And we will
May God get his grace on each of us so that one day we may reach that heavenly goal. That we may be reunited with those saints who have gone before
that we may gather around the throne of our Lord and Savior, giving thanks and praise unto Him. And let us not forget to give thanks unto our Heavenly Father even this day. All those blessings
but also the trials which he belongs. Remain believing, brothers and sisters, in the promises of God through that gift of faith which he has given each one of his children.
I'm sure, of course, as many thoughts you might have regarding the testimony that Brett just shared, but it is 11 o'clock at night. So perhaps it's a good time for us to pause now. And Keith was just mentioning that
This could be a good topic for the annual meeting. As Brett mentioned, he doesn't feel like it's, he wants to make that decision himself. He wants to be obedient to what the congregation asks of him. So I encourage everyone to think and pray on these matters and we'll look for a spot on the annual meeting agenda coming up in a couple of weeks.
I did want to say one other thing that the text message Brett wrote, although I appreciate him not sharing my name, is a message I wrote to Brett after the congregation preached forgiveness to him. And my hope then and my hope continues to be that God would work his miracles for all of us when we need them and that we can trust that he can work those miracles.
Eric, could you do a closing prayer for us tonight? You're...
Heavenly Father, we have gathered here from many walks of life, and we have shared tonight those songs and those worries and those concerns that are on our hearts. We pray, dear Father,
that these do not fall on deaf ears. But those who were instructed this evening will go to their place of rest and will think and ponder on these words. We feel and trust that your Holy Spirit was truly here
leading, and guiding. And we feel so weak and helpless. And we don't know what more we can say. May you protect and guide and lead each and every one of us. Why don't we join together in the
Lord's benediction. The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, amen. Bruce reminded me that we have
A motion on the floor that we have to do something with. I mean, I don't know what we need to do because we don't have a quorum here anymore to be able to vote, but do we need Tim to rescind his motion for now? No, it just dies. It dies? Okay.
This transcript was typed from the same recording by a participant in the meeting, who shared it with the compiler in September 2026. Speaker names, bracketed words and omissions are the transcriber’s; the compiler has not checked it word for word against the recording, and where the two transcripts differ the recording governs. Timestamps shown in black were matched to the recording by the text and jump the player there; gray ones are the typed transcript’s own times. The same personal medical details were removed as in the machine transcript.
Phoenix Meeting about Brett Rintamaki on 8 January 2022
Eric Mattila: opening prayer and devotion
Keith Hillukka: opening comments [21:30] As we begin our discussion, I will give a short overview. Over the past couple of years, congregation members have reached out to the board voicing concerns surrounding our preacher brother Brett. The board wants to be open and transparent with the congregation [about] how we have dealt with and struggled with these matters. We have discussed concerns at our meetings. Some [people] have met with Brett to discuss these concerns. And others have reached out but have not been able to meet [with him]. The board has felt a change with Brett which is a lack of freedom with board members and [the lack of] attending board meetings. We have made these thoughts and concerns known to Brett. We have prayed for guidance to do what is right and correct in the light of God's word. We feel the need for the congregation's help in this matter. At one of our board meetings in unity we decided that we would not schedule Brett to serve until we could meet as a congregation. So, here we are this evening. Our hope and prayer is that God through his spirit would care for all of us and that through His Holy Spirit in His congregation, He would reveal the correct way. So, as we begin our discussion, I want to encourage everyone to speak what is on their heart and mind – board members, speakers, congregation members. I also want to encourage you to speak from the heart. I know that at times we read a lot of prepared statements. I think we are going to have a lot of discussion this evening, So, I think that it would be great if we could just keep it to what is on our heart and mind. It says in Matthew 10 verses 19 and 20. “But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” We also remember from Ephesians 6:12 in these battles that God’s kingdom is facing. “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” So, as we begin, it is out of love and concern that we are here this evening. I will open up the floor. I have a notepad and pen. Raise your hand and we will keep going. If for some reason I forget your name. Sometimes when I stand up here, I get a blank mind. I will ask you to forgive me ahead of time. We have two roving mics. We will open up the floor for discussion. [25:45]
Adam Niskanen: I would consider myself ignorant of a lot of what has been going on in Zion over the last few years. I have tried to stay out of it. A few weeks ago when Keith [Hillukka] made his announcement, I was kind of surprised. I was taken aback. It was something that I did not expect. Like I said, I have been kind of ignorant on a lot of things. So, I called Brett the next day. I had a good talk with him. I called a couple of board members, who I am very close with. I had a talk with them. I believe that the board cares about Brett. I believe that Brett cares about the board. I think that it is safe to say that they are friends. But I do think it was wrong for the board to remove Brett from the speaking schedule – certainly before this meeting, regardless what the ultimate outcome is. As it pertains to the Church Law of Christ, I am probably the most guilty of anyone. I teach kindergarten in Sunday School. That is perfect for me because that is about my depth of understanding of faith. When I look at my brothers on the board and I look at Brett, I look at them as my brothers and faith. As it pertains to the Church Law of Christ, I don't know all of the details. We are all flawed; and we all try. I just feel that if members were concerned about Brett, I don't think they should have gone to the board. Maybe some of them went to Brett, and that is good. Again I do not know the details. If they did go to the board, they should have said that just go talk to Brett. [Then] maybe we wouldn't have been here today. I don't know. A general thought that I had. There is so much in the world that is dividing us today. There is a lot of division out there. I think that it is important that we look at people, And now look at them and cast judgment based on who they are friends with or who they are sympathetic to, or who they associate with, or anything like that. It should be just based on them and how they stand alone and if their beliefs are in line with yours and if the fruits are there. I guess that is all that I have for now. [29:17]
Timo Sutinen: A comment on the church law of Christ. As far as I understand, It does not pertain to the calling of ministers. So, I do not believe that it pertains to this [situation]. Secondly, even though we are a level-headed flock. The preacher or minister is not above anyone else. The human tendency is not to be willing to talk to someone who they consider to be in a position of authority. So, the step to talk to a minister can be significant. There is nothing wrong in my opinion with a congregation member talking to the board who has been elected to be the guide – part of the guiding – of the congregation. So, when I heard what the board had done, which was to pause the use of Brett as a minister, my first thought was – Oh, Brett must be really elated. Since the last time I heard him speak, it seemed to me that he had a lot of trouble, even from a human point of view. So, I thought if I were a minister, I would be like – YES. I don't know if the situation is like that. But that is what I thought. If I would have been a minister I would have thought, yes. So, anyways, that is my [thought].
Rebecca Redman [Bruce and Sue’s]: I have a hoarse voice, so I hope you can [understand] me. I don't want to come here tonight to find fault in anyone else, even though it is close to my flesh. Instead, I want to confess how I believe. I am not one to take the microphone, usually, so hopefully I can express what is on my mind. I haven't been here as long as a lot of you have. I've lived here for three years. But the three years that I have lived here … The sermons that I have listened to from Brett and the many discussions that we have had about faith have been uplifting and edifying to my life of faith. I feel that his sermons have been centered around Christ and what [Christ] did for me and for each one of us. There is a Bible verse that I want to pull up. Let's see if I can find it. It is from John chapter 6. Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life. He that comes to me shall never hunger. He that believes in me shall never thirst. If a sermon is centered around Jesus and what he did for us, I hope that is the only thing that I need to be fed [with]. If I am looking for something other than that, then I am hungering for the wrong thing. I don't know if we can all agree [or not] tonight that this is about Brett. It is about something far greater than that. God must have allowed this to happen for reasons not completely known to us. When I think about – I don't know what part it is in the Bible – where it says that I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believes [Rom. 1:17]. Believing this gospel brings salvation. I know that God wants souls to be saved and Satan does not. It is God that wants this gospel to be preached; and Satan does not. I would hope that I would never say – Satan is so cunning and deceiving – I would hope and pray that he would not ever lead me to think that this gospel should not be preached Individually to a person or to an entire congregation and think that it is the Holy Spirit speaking to me. I don't want to be a part of any group – [to say that] I am with this person or that person. I want to be obedient to Jesus and his teachings. I don't want to put my trust in anything else. I don't want to put my trust in the LLC, the Phoenix board, my spouse. I don't even want to trust myself. I want to put my trust in the Lord and lean not on my own understanding. There is another part in the Bible – I don't know the exact words. It says, where your heart is, there your treasure is. Luther has another word for it. Where your trust is, therein lies your God. I hope and pray that for myself that I can put my trust in Jesus Christ. He alone is the reason for my salvation or my righteousness, which makes me right before God. This complete work and what he did on the cross is my salvation. [36:50]
Neil Roberts: My heart says Amen to what Adam [Niskanen] had to say. My faith is very simple and I try to keep it that way. I think we need to be very careful. Our brother Tim [Sutinen] just said, if he was a minister you would say, yes, I want to come down [from preaching]. But he is not [a minister], and Brett is.. When your name is not just mentioned in the Phoenix congregation. When your name is mentioned to rest [from speaking], most of these ministers do not get up and speak again. A perfect example is Eric Lahti who was recently [asked to rest]. I feel that the love and kindness is lost when it comes to Brett. We don't treat people like that. When Tim [Sutinen] mentions that a person would want to come down, it is not only in Phoenix that the name is brought up. It is Zion. I have a sister in Cokato who called and asked, ``What is up with Brett Rintamaki?” We don't treat people like this in Zion. We just don’t. I talked to Brett and found out the news. I called him right away just like Adam [Niskanen] did. We had a good conversation. My heart says Amen to him. I do not see anything wrong with Brett's faith. The blanket statement that I got is to start reaching out to people who are close to Brett and who are not close to Brett to ask him what his faith life is like. And to ask what are your concerns. Why is he being sat? The blanket statement that keeps coming up – just like it was with Eric [Lahti] – is spiritual matters. It really breaks my heart the way that this is happening. Keith [Hillukka] mentioned that the board has for several years had issues with Brett. I ask Brett about that. He said that he never had anyone come up to him until June of this year. So, I don't know if he [Keith Hillukka] meant several months or several years. But if we had issues [with Brett] several years ago, why did we wait one year and 10 months to bring up these issues? I was always taught – I was born and raised in Phoenix. I helped to build this church. I swept the floor. I was 10 years old. I have a lot of Sunday school teachers here who taught me when I was a little kid that when we have an issue with somebody, we go to them. I think that it is very important that when we have issues – and if it has been happening for several years – and members go to the board, the board should redirect those people back to the individual. Ask them, have you talked to them? Go and talk to them. Yes, Brett's schedule is busy. He has a lot of things going on. He said that he has reached out, So, it is not like – he said or she said. It is almost like he is guilty and now he has to try to prove his innocence. I don't think it is right. I think that we should have had this meeting before we took anyone off of the schedule. It is a big deal when we pull someone down from speaking. You would think that we would cross our T's and dot our I's before we make a decision that is going to influence someone's faith life. This is not [a matter] only in Phoenix, but it goes across all Zion. So, it really really hurts my heart that the board makes a decision to have Brett sit but yet the congregation a month later [has a meeting] – not a week later. We talked about Brett for one month at the dinner table and in conversations. Then we have a meeting a month later. Couldn't this meeting have been a week later? So, those are some of my concerns. I really encourage the board members who made the decision that night at the board meeting to take Brett down to speak up. What truly are those matters? Instead of putting a blanket statement on spiritual issues, what are the true issues around Brett? Lastly, I hope and pray that there are no sides and we are all in this together. Our common goal is to get to heaven. It is all of us, not certain individuals. When we don't get to speak, it seems like there is a personal agenda behind this. I really hope and pray that there is not [an agenda]. I would really encourage the congregation – the congregation makes the decision. It is not the board. I really hope that we as a congregation come tonight and unite and reinstate Brett. [42:45]
Becky Roberts: One real quick [comment]. I have known Brett since confirmation. He has been the same Brett since years ago as in 1987 when I first met him. He is the same Brett. He has been the same Brett since when the congregation put him up as a speaker. Even until today, his fruits of faith have not changed.
Eric Mattila: I would like to share my thoughts and feelings of my heart. At least from my perspective, why we are here where we are. As we heard in Keith’s [Hillukka] summary, the board has felt that something has changed in Brett. He is no longer free. He no longer comes to board meetings or shares this closeness or fellowship, as the speakers and board members share. Before this meeting, I wanted to visit with Brett personally. I wanted to speak one-on-one with him and hear from his own mouth how he believes and understands these matters. How does he feel about the spiritual battle that we are now in here in God's Kingdom? I will have to say that I went there with a lot of fear and I was trembling. I hoped that we could come to some common ground or understanding that we believe in the same way and that we have the same faith. I was there for five hours. Maybe we visited for four of the five hours. I related to both Brett and Marita that the reason I am here and the reason that the congregation is worried and troubled about you: They don't know where you stand on the spiritual battle that is currently taking place in God's Kingdom. It quickly became evident that night that we do not believe in the same way. We do not share the same thoughts, ideas or understandings on the cause of [the unrest in Zion] and the resolution of it. [There was no agreement to] almost none of the happenings and to our decisions in the way things have gone in the last 5 to 7 years, however long it has been now. We do not believe anywhere close to the same way. The answer that I received when I asked. I said that I'm curious, wondering and concerned, because I have not heard you speak about how you feel about this division and where you are. He responded, “what does it matter how I think, feel or how I believe about these issues?'' I was really taken aback by that statement. I feel, especially as a servant of the word in the congregation, that we need to be open books. We need to be free before the congregation. We need to share what is on our heart and mind, especially during spiritual battles. The congregation must know where we stand. They must know how we view it and where our heart is. That is what I feel has been lacking from Brett. He has not been open and free to share where he is. People that I have spoken to from this congregation have expressed that is where their concern is, also. Where is Brett in this battle? There were many other concerning things that we visited about. I am going to share some of them because I see that Brett is here tonight. This is how he expresses that he believes so he should not have any qualms about me sharing what he freely expressed to me. Also, he is here to correct me if I am wrong or I misunderstood him. I brought up the fact that there are members in the Wolf Lake congregation that are now holding a Bible study with people in heresy, from different heretic groups. Brett and Marita did not see anything wrong with this. In fact, they thought that it was a good idea in case someone in the group would be seeking. We view this matter very differently. I asked him about the fact that there are members in Arizona who are holding their own Bible study at Warren and Brita Raisanen’s house separate from the congregation here. Also, they did not see anything wrong with that. We spoke about the MBMAC letter that was written to Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, what it implies and speaks about and how serious the matter is. I don't think that we had the same understanding at all in that letter. We saw it very differently. We also spoke briefly about the letter that Warren Raisanen and Eric Skoog Wrote. We viewed that letter very differently. [We spent] many hours speaking about these current situations and the things that have happened in God's congregation. We cannot brush them off and pretend that they are not happening and ignore them and say that I am not in this group or that group. I believe that God’s congregation and spirit is one group, and not the other. It is not possible that we have this sort of division and that both groups would be right. I felt that Brett and Marita were not able to tell me where they stood and where they felt that God's kingdom was. I left there [feeling] very troubled. I left there [feeling] very sad. I have no personal hard feelings about Brett or Marita. I have always felt that Brent is not a close friend but is a friend of mine. But the matter of friendship is very different from being a servant. I went there with many doubts. But I will have to say, when I left from there I was completely reassured that the board had made the right decision by bringing this to the congregation. The Holy Spirit has led and guided our visits and our discussions. I even told Brett this. I hope he has the strength tonight to speak up and share what is on his heart openly before God and His congregation where he stands and how he views these matters. For my own sins and doubts, I ask if I could hear the gospel again? [52:00]
Mikko Pasanen: I had some thoughts going around my head. I will try to get my thoughts straight. It is nice to see Brett and Marita here tonight. Our hope and prayer is that God would open your heart in this way so that you could see that the board did not ask you not to serve. But it is because of love. I know myself as a servant also, if I would be asked to not serve, it would be a relief in one way. But, of course, there is my flesh that I carry, too. It is my own pride. My own pride has something to say. When hearing that the board has been hearing that for two years, [people have asked why] only for the last 6 months has Brett known about it. When the board members and speakers, too – when the people come and speak to us, we don't typically jump and bring these [people] together, or things like that. But perhaps we have instructed those people to go and talk Individually [to the person]. Of course, I do not know all of the circumstances. I know that I have visited with some [people] about this matter. That was the instruction [that I gave]. Whether those people were able to go and talk to Brett, [I don’t know]. Maybe they tried to and it didn't work out. I don't know. But when the board keeps getting more and more contacts from the congregants about the servant, it seems like at some point it is their duty that they would need to do something. I have been at the board meetings, and some of them have been tough. But at the end of each meeting we have been united. We have felt that the spirit of God has been with us and guided us and instructed us. I know that each board member had been troubled and second-guessed themselves, are they doing something wrong? I have to say that in my mind it is in this way, when a person is asked to not serve, It is nothing but love. Even though this meeting is not about trying to [hurt anyone?] but it is an act of love. Even in the Church Law of Christ, the last step says to bring it to the congregation. And that step is only because of love. Like it says in the Book of Revelation, Jesus held the Seven Stars in his hand, but yet he rebuked five of those servants of the congregations. He asked them to repent. God loves and he is patient. He has time and he has more patience than we have. Brett, I hope that God would allow you to see this is an act of love and you would hear what the spirit says to the churches. I have also come here with my many doubts. I ask, can I hear the gospel? [58:25]
Bruce Wuollet: Before I share my thoughts, I come with many doubts and empty feelings. Can I hear the gospel? Can you bless me? To answer Neil's [Roberts] questions, we as a board labored over this for a long time These discussions were not in haste. My first conversation with Brett regarding a sermon that he spoke – there were some things that were unclear to me. I approached him. It would have been a year-and-a-half ago. We spoke on that [topic] and he shared what it meant. It was around being our brother's keeper. What was concerning to me was not what was said but what was not said. What had been left out? It seems to be recurring in sermons. The doctrine is close, but there are things that are left out. There are thoughts that are not completed. I wrote it off – maybe it is nervousness. I could not imagine being completely jitter free when giving a sermon. So, we talked about those matters. I have been thankful that when I have reached out to Brett – Brett, you have called back; you have not hidden; You have not ignored [me]. We have had some good discussions. Albeit there are differences in the how we believe in these current battles that are facing God’s Zion. It is specifically around serving Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. It is also about what the gospel does and does not do. I believe that we have battles on this journey and we take care of our matters as they burden us. We are saved by grace yet we have the endeavor of faith. We need to take care of matters. It felt like in one of the conversations that there was a difference in how we perceive those [things]. Then regarding how the board met. We can talk about fruits. What are the fruits? Fruits are behaviors. We have seen a change in behavior. When we see a change in behavior, it brings concern. So, we can ask, is there a lack of freedom? Are you not free to truly speak to these matters? You no longer attend board meetings. [Attendance at] board meetings are not a requirement. It is not a litmus test. If you don't go to a board meeting, you are then condemned. That is not what I am saying. But it has been a complete absence from the board [meetings]. When we discuss spiritual matters, it is so comforting to have the speaker brothers there and sharing their own psalms and understandings. After the last couple of meetings that were in the month of May in Monticello – the board members and board members and speakers meetings – each minister came back with their greetings and their concerns. The congregation has not heard your concern. How do you feel about these matters? Do you feel that there is a division? Do you feel that there are two groups? I was told by somebody that there cannot be two groups. But they quickly identified themselves in a different group. If there cannot be two groups, how can you identify yourself in another group? We have that here. We have division. We have a false spirit dwelling in our midst. And it is right here in Phoenix. To deny it does not mean it does not exist. I tremble. My wife and I were visiting today. She is not feeling well so she did not make it [to the meeting]. We were visiting on and off all day about how difficult it is to see and our heart aches to hear accusations that we are doing these incorrectly. We are doing these things too hastily. At these meetings there is so much love. At times, when we were there we could only imagine how these tough grown men were weeping. They were broken. I went to the last board meeting with a feeling, perhaps my time on the board is done. Who am I to make these decisions? Who am I to have these discussions. Brett, we have asked you to come to the meetings to discuss openly about how you believe and how you feel. Somebody asked, could this meeting have been avoided? Sure. It could have been discussed had Brett showing up at the [board] meetings to discuss these concerns that we all had. We individually called him. Some people were at peace and some people were not at peace. Then some people had no peace. The way to resolve this is to sit down with the board. We are a group of believers who want to make [things] right. The flat-out refusal to open up to us as a board and a congregation is what brought it to this [point]. The congregation members brought their concerns [to the board]. It became more and more frequent. After the last couple of sermons, the sheep were restless. And when the sheep are restless, it is good to have these discussions, Brett, and to talk about what these concerns are. I hope the people that have come to me could also come and speak with you. It is the hope that the few that have come – two out of the three said that they did speak to you, Brett. You reported that no one has talked to you. So, I do not think it is true. People are reaching out. I have seen somebody visiting with you right here at church. It was one of the elders. So, please be free. Please do not disregard the instruction from the kingdom. As far as speaking goes, it seems like there are some people who feel that speaking Is a privilege. Once you have earned it, you are above reproach or discussion. This is not right. As I mentioned to Brett – and I feel the same – I could believe just as content or even more content quietly in the pew and not being on the board. I will freely step down if the congregation feels that my service is no longer needed. Brett, I also feel that you can believe just as preciously from the pew as you can from the pulpit. Just remember that. Be humble. If anything that I said based on our conversation is different from what you recall, please let me know. That is all that I have for now. I have one other thought. It is regarding the letter that was written. We will be reading that letter to the congregation. I support it based on the discussions that I have had with those people in Minnesota. I am in support of that letter. I think it is healthy. People say, why would you want to push people out. People are moving from the center [of the flock] and they will eventually find themselves outside of the Kingdom. They are not being pushed out. People are willfully moving to the fringes where there is so much danger. I would encourage all of us to seek the center [of the flock]. That is where the safety is. [1:06:45]
Shannon Simonson: Like Adam [NIskanen] and Neil [Roberts], who mentioned about the board making a wrong decision, the devil has told me the same thing. I trust that our congregation here will correct us, if we did. For all of my doubts, before I go forward, can I hear the gospel? I, too, agree with Rebecca [Redman] that this is bigger than the topic right here. There are two different spirits. For myself, I remember Brett. You and I were asked to be youth Bible class teachers. You and I both struggled, how are we going to do it? Being on the youth committee together and different things, you and I discussed faith weekly, I would say. When your name came up to be a speaker, my heart said, amen. I consider you to be one of my good buddies. I have been able to talk about the way over the years [with you]. Our weekly discussions and visits about faith started changing. I remember the day. It was while we were sitting on the plane ride coming back from Minnesota from the meeting in Monticello [April 2019?]. We didn't quite agree on how that meeting went. Our discussions about faith slowly started changing. I would say that in the last year the only time that you and I talked about faith was in last June when I came back from Minnesota at Starbucks. At that time, I believe that you were struggling just like me. I thought about the board meetings. You would come to just about every single one that we had. Slowly, over the last year, I would say, you came to [only] one. I could be wrong. Maybe a period of over longer than that – but only one. It was the [board meeting] where we discussed whether to serve in Wolf Lake or not. For myself – like Bruce [Wuollet] said – it is not a duty that you have to come to board meetings. But I do not know what is different. I had a discussion recently with a few people. I know that you talk about faith with other people. We did discuss this in our visit at Starbucks. For some reason it is different now than it was before. I don't know what it is completely other than the freedom of two fellow believers walking on the same path. The only way that I can think about it is that we are not on the same path. I think that is happening in God's Kingdom right now. There is only one way. And for myself – one is either on the right way and the others are on the wrong way, or I am on the wrong way and the others are on the right way. There are not two ways. My hope and trust is that if I am on the wrong way that it would be revealed through somebody by God somehow. And most importantly, that I would be humble enough to put it away and believe. That is what my feelings are [like] right now. There is a difference between yourself and myself. The Christian freedom and joy is not there. My hope is that other [people] who have their thoughts – we should visit together about these things. For myself being on the board, if we are wrong, that it would be opened up through the congregation. And that I would be humble enough to accept it and move on from these things. My hope is – just like Rebecca [Redman] said – that we would all make it to heaven. That we can all believe [in order] to make it there. That is all that I have right now. [1:14:17]
Ryan Koivisto: I will try and put my thoughts together. First of all, before starting, I would like to hear the gospel. Like the other board members and speakers have mentioned, we have had some real challenging discussions over the past several months around this matter. I was very slow myself to speak personally to Brett. At some of those discussions, Brett was not there. Some on the board were going to reach out to him. In my weakness, I left it at that. I hoped that the other brothers would speak [to Brett], who believed in the same way as I did. and that they would give the message. I did get a chance recently, just a few days ago, to speak to Brett, and shared some of these concerns, too. Like has been mentioned, there is a division in God's Kingdom right now. We can see it in this letter. It is a very sobering letter that was sent out. It is very clear that there is a division in God's Kingdom. We have over the past year or so – over the past number of years – we have had a number of discussions on that [topic]. Brett has not been a part of those discussions, other than the one that we talked about, where we discussed sending speakers to Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. That, I guess, has probably been my concern. There has been mention of the lack of freedom. It does feel like there is a lack of freedom. We tried to get together. There was one meeting where we tried to get all of the speakers and board members together. The schedule was left very open so that everyone could make it and discuss the matters. I think it is important that all of the speakers and board members that the congregation has entrusted with these duties that we all believe in the same way. And that we believe as the congregation believes. That [meeting] was not able to happen. To me it is concerning. it feels like freedom has not been there. Like Eric [Mattila] mentioned, I have not heard how Brett understands these matters and how he believes on these matters. I did share this, too, with Brett. It is important, like it says in God's word, that we speak in season and out of season. If he feels that the congregation or the board is erring in some of these things, and he is not comfortable with the decisions that have been made, I think that it is important that those feelings are shared openly. I think we need to be like open books before the congregation. I think it is especially so for the speakers that we have asked to serve us. So, I guess that those are some of my thoughts. I am kind of getting jumbled now. I would just reiterate what has been said. My Hope and prayer in these things is that I would not get dried up in these matters. If I do, I would have the humility to accept the rebuke and correction from the brothers and sisters. [1:18:45]
Steve Kariniemi: I think this is in our bylaws, too. It is Lutheran doctrine. The Bible is God's revelation. According to the confessional writings of the Lutheran Church, the prophetic writings of the Old and the New Testament are the Only Rule and Norm by which all teaching and teachers are to be tried and evaluated. This is the Lutheran view of the Bible which is an irrefutable principle. This is what we have to guide us in this subject matter. The other personal experience that I had. I made a point to go and talk to almost every one of our ministers. I asked them a simple question: What would you want me to do if you said something in your sermon that concerned me? Every one of them said, come and talk to me. This is a very natural and correct way. And it is in accordance with the Church Law of Christ. I heard Eric Mattila say in his last sermon: If someone is troubled by anything that I say, please come and talk to me. In Eric's heart I believe that he has the belief in the Church Law of Christ. What happens after this is where we seem to fall off on this. We don't actually follow up on this [principle]. If there are questions that people had about Brett in his sermons, and if the love was really there, you would go and talk to him. We all know that we have all her trials with our own children. When something comes up, we go and talk to our children. We don't even think about running to the board and telling them to deal with it. But this thought – we still have this love but we can't seem to do it according to God's word. This is really troubling to me. This is what I really struggle with. I have had conversations with Brett. I don't see any issues with him. I know that he has been in a place of uncomfort. I would just like to have Brett speak up himself about what has happened during these past time periods. When the board took the step to rest Brett, it was a step that was announced throughout the Zion of America. It was not a step that followed the Church Law of Christ, which is [based on] love. When Eric Mattila spoke here so freely and openly about these matters of how Brett understands these things. Eric went to visit with Brett. And then he came to the congregation and spoke very openly of every concern that he could think of. We wouldn't do that. We would go back with another person. We would try to talk. We would consider that this person is still a believer, but he seems to have some wrong understanding that we would like to try to work on. We hear talk about two different spirits. If there are two different spirits, I don't look around this room and see a bunch of unbelievers and consider myself as a believer. And if anyone does, they have put themselves in the place of judgment. I do believe that there are some very serious doctrinal differences and understandings that need to be addressed and talked about. That is going to end up to be the root of our problem. [1:24:05]
Adam Wuollet: I know that there have been a few comments about the Church Law of Christ. I think it is important to consider why we are here tonight. It is to discuss the concerns about a speaker-brother, who is a servant of the word. As it has been said, there is great division in God's Kingdom. As God's children, we are not here criticizing or judging an individual. We are not bringing people up. I would say that when Jesus taught of the Church Law of Christ, He talked about caretaking for offenses. I don't know how many children are here. But all of us that have grown up in Christianity, we know in our heart that it is wrong when sin comes between one another and we go talk about it with others. But this is a completely different matter. This is a brother that has been asked by the congregation to serve publicly. This is not a personal offense that has been brought up. Just like any speaker when we discuss them being asked to serve, There are discussions in the homes and with the board. The board has been asked to care for those and take care of those matters. Then it comes before the congregation. This is the same way it is happening now. We have heard tonight that there have been some who have talked to Brett. And there have probably been many who have wanted to talk to Brett, but they have not. We have seen many examples throughout the Bible, when God sent only one – he did not even send a few. It is a sad outcome when one cannot hear when God sends [someone]. I think it is important that we don't sit here and criticize. If there are concerns, it is good to bring it up. [If] all we can do is focus on the procedure and we do not focus on the true matter here. My heart says amen to the letter that Keith read and how the board has cared for this [matter]. I know it is not an easy matter for any of us, especially for these brothers that have been asked to care for the congregation In their weakness and doubts. But if there is no freedom to speak, like we heard, then it becomes very, very difficult. That is not a small matter. For any of you who have served on a board in Christianity, there is such wonderful love when you meet month after month and have heart-to-heart discussions about living faith. That is the report that we hear when God's children gather together. Those are the reports that we hear when brothers gather at camps or at meetings. When it is not that [type] of report, but another type of report where there is no willingness to meet. There are situations in life. But this is clearly a trend. What is more important in our life than our spiritual life and the congregation's life? We are new to the Phoenix congregation in the last several months [switched from Glendale]. When hearing some of the brothers speak who have spoken personally to Brett. Sadly, they say that they have come to the conclusion that they believe differently. I have not talked to Brett. [But] the spoken word has changed. There is a lot of Scripture reading. But when one leaves empty from services, we look inward. But when it [happens] time and time and time again, and now we hear these matters that are brought up. If it is just because the brother is not free to speak [up] and hear the call – open your heart and be free. If you have a humble heart to hear that loving rebuke, then matters can be cared for. Dear Brett, you can be reassured that there have been endless prayers on your behalf. This is a loving congregation. God is present here and is calling you. [1:30:05]
Eric (Lahti): There has been much talk tonight about Brett and his sermons and fruits. I heard some comments about judgment. I think that these are all important topics. They are not all necessary in the right place at the right time. It depends on which topic we are discussing here. When you are talking about Brett speaking, there are many Bible verses that touch on what we are to speak and preach. I thought about some of these verses that people were talking about tonight. In Corinthians it says, “the preaching of the cross is foolishness, but to those that are saved it is the power of God. It is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and I will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise; where is the Scribe; where is the distributor of this world? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness.” [1 Cor 1:18-23] Paul writes to Timothy, “As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.” [1 Tim. 1:3-4] Paul says in Romans, “Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.” [Rom. 14:16-19] There is a book that is titled, He Entrusted us with the Word of Reconciliation, by Waino Havas. In one of his sermons there is a story. He talked about a minister that went to another congregation in Finland. He was being approached because there was contention in that congregation. People wanted to share all of the issues and concerns that were going on there. The minister was partially deaf, but he pretended that he was completely deaf. He ignored all of the discussion and chatter. He preached God's word and of Christ's suffering and resurrection. He said that on the third day the hearts begin to melt. Now instead of confessing each other's sins, they began to confess their own sins. That is what God's word does. It is sharper than a two-edged sword. It says in Hebrews that the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and it is the discerner of the thoughts and intentions of the heart. [Heb. 4:12-13] Those verses that I read are in response to some of the comments that I have heard tonight that Brett is not speaking about these matters in Zion. I believe that he has through God's word from the pulpit. It is what I have heard myself. I think that it is good that we discuss the matters in the right way. Hopefully, the ones that are bringing his matters and fruits before the congregation have talked to Brett and have brought it before one or two more [individuals]. I know that the matter of speaking is a congregational matter. I do not dispute that. Those are some of my thoughts. I know that they are jumbled. There are many more [thoughts in my mind] but I cannot get them out right now. [1:35:40]
Mark Young: The Church Law of Christ was mentioned tonight. The first words in the Church Law of Christ are, if your brother offends you. There can be a whole host of reasons for that. I was one of the individuals that went to speak to Brett. I did not find Brett to be open or honest. I will try to remember as best as I can. If Brett remembers it differently, he can speak up. I did not feel like he was open. We are advised by God's word to be open epistles. I asked him if he is with us or with those [people] in Minneapolis. He asked, what is going on up in Minneapolis? I didn't know what to say. I think that everyone here knows what is going on in Minneapolis. I was offended by him not being open about these matters. I would like to say to dear Brett this evening. When God in Paradise went looking for Adam, He asked, where are you? That is the question tonight, Brett. Where are you? There are a couple of parables that several of the gospel writers have spoken about. They are about the 99 sheep and the one that went astray. In one of the parables it says, the shepherd went to look for The Lost One. If he can find it, he will bring it back to the fold. If he can find it. This is my hope tonight. It is my prayer that we could find dear Brett. The only way that we can find him is if he opens up and speaks about these matters. So, we want to be open and honest before God and man. It reminds me of Ananias and Sapphira, which are powerful examples. When they lied before the Holy Ghost, they were taken out dead. These may sound like sharp words. But as someone said, the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword. That is my hope. I hope that it will be the same for me. If the congregation came looking for me, I would be open and honest. [1:40:35]
Ben Wuollet: I had a few thoughts here. I have not personally spoken with Brett. I wanted to come to the meeting with an open mind and heart and hear what the other congregation members have on their mind. I have a couple of questions, not just at this meeting but at all of the meetings that we have had over the past couple of years. I keep hearing that the Church Law of Christ has not been followed. From what I have heard so far tonight, I would like to learn more about that. My understanding is that a person talks to an individual if they have been offended. If they feel that the matter has not been resolved, You would then take two or three more with you. If it is still not resolved, at that point it is taken before the congregation. I have heard multiple stories tonight of people that have met with Brett. That is the one. The board has met with Brett. To me that is the group. So, wouldn't the next step be, if it is not resolved, to take it in front of the congregation. I don't disagree that we should withhold personal attacks. We should be talking about issues from the pulpit that have been spoken. For me we have had the one, we have had the group, the next step would be the congregation. If I am wrong in my understanding, I would like to have a discussion on it, so we can make sure that we are following it [correctly]. My second thought. I would like to see if there are more people, other congregation members, that have spoken with him. Feel free to open up. I know that over the past year or two there has been unfortunately some mistrust that people have towards the board or certain speakers. So, if there are other people who could share their thoughts, perhaps people who have mistrust of the board [we could] view [hear] those opinions as well. I think people need to realize that the people on the board – I have spoken to a few of them, not just regarding this [topic] but in general. There are a lot of happy meetings. But there are a lot of meetings that people go to with very high stress and fear. Especially in the last couple of years when this mistrust has begun to form around certain people on the LLC or people on the boards. One, I would like to know more about the Church Law of Christ to see if it has been followed [correctly]. From my point of view, it has been [followed correctly]. I would also like to hear more views. I have not spoken with Brett personally, so I wanted to come here with an open mind and heart. [1:43;50]
Darren Forstie: There are a lot of thoughts racing through my mind, so hopefully I can be coherent and speak through my fears and doubts. With regards to two groups. My flesh does not like to hear that maybe there are two groups. I very much fear that. But if I were to say that there are not two groups, I would be lying to myself. Three or four years ago I had brothers in Minnesota who told me first hand. People were meeting in different houses with John Lehtola. They were the group of grace and the LLC was the group of the law. So, people have been separated into another group for many years. In Minneapolis, the battle was so fierce that Keith Waaraniemi and [Russ] Roiko and half of the board decided to leave. They said that it was for their personal faith. So, in that congregation there were two groups. Do we have this in Phoenix? I am not sure, but I know that there is a WhatsApp group, which is exclusive. Not everyone is invited. So, I think that this is a very dangerous time for all of our personal faiths. There certainly seems to be two groups. At some point, not through any man or myself, but God will separate the wheat from the chaff. At some point there will be the believers and the people who are outside of the Kingdom. For all of us, we need to take this very seriously. We need to look into our own hearts and see where we stand. Last May I was in Monticello at that national-wide meeting. I heard two voices. I heard the voice that I believe is God's Kingdom, which I have heard my whole life. And I heard another voice. I think that the believers here understand that there are multiple voices. Throughout the months and years, myself and a few others have expressed concern about Brett. They do not know where Brett stands. We know where the other ministers stand. It is [evident] through [their] sermons, presentations and meetings. This did not happen overnight but it was over multiple months and years. I say amen and I know where those brothers stand. My concern with Brett – I have not heard where he stands publicly. Like I said, it feels like we are coming to a serious cross road in God's kingdom [and] throughout Zion. I am losing my train of thought. I would encourage Brett to speak publicly on these matters. And for all of us that we would stay humble, to pray and to listen to the voice of the congregation and the voice of the Holy Spirit. I have to ask: do we believe that God's spirit is in the Phoenix congregation? What do we believe? For myself, I have said amen to the brothers in Minnesota at the nationwide meeting and to those brothers that wrote the letter to Wolf Lake and Minneapolis [on January 1, 2022]. For all of my fears and doubts, can you forgive me? [1:48:55]
Andy Kesti: I got here a few minutes late, so if this has already been covered, forgive me for being repetitive here. There has been discussion around a few different themes here tonight. One [theme] was around the action that the board took. I thought about what I would do – for the congregation members, I will explain why the board was compelled to take the actions that it took. In the church’s bylaws it talks about a topic in article 2 section 2. “The trustee, or a board member shall serve and hold office as provided by these bylaws, as do pastors and preachers, in their oversight of the spiritual affairs of the congregation.” It goes on to speak of other temporal affairs, too, that the board is responsible for. If you are curious why is there discussion around one of our speakers, as one that the board addresses. You can see that it is one of our responsibilities as listed in the by-laws. We assist our pastors and ministers in these things. If there would be concern about one of our pastors or preachers, it is certainly within the scope of what the board would have discussions. The understanding, of course - not to me personally but to the other board members. People from the congregation have also brought concerns. I will reflect a little bit on the general topic – for Brett, Marita and I, a couple of times that we visited, we talked about how we believe and some of these current matters. The fact of the matter was that the gospel was preached and matters were taken care of. And we all hope that we could remain as believers. The second time that Brett, Marita and I, along with Keith [HIllukka], got together along with another couple from this congregation. The encouragement was that Brett could care for those matters, even those things of which he did not know that he caused offense. [It was the hope] that he could care for those [matters] with the congregation. We understand that the servant of the word is a public facing. My heart rejoiced a lot when Brett had the strength to care for these matters from the pulpit the next day. We had a board meeting shortly thereafter. The topic came up again that there were some congregation members who wondered if Brett should still be serving, even after matters had been taken care of. I will say from a full transparency perspective. I was very, very concerned why some congregation members could not just let the fruits of repentance [become manifest] and let these matters be buried in the sea of grace. And then we could carry on. But again, I am only one person. I don't know. I don't have the gifts to see everything and to understand and interpret what is going on. But it is through all of those in the congregation who believe and have the Holy Spirit they would see the matters that are important to the nurturing of the congregation. So, we did discuss this and thought that it would be very important – now that matters had been cared for, we should all be content with what had occurred. If there were still concerns and those things were coming back, we continue to do what we always do. We encourage those [people] who come to the board for assistance in these spiritual matters, please go back to Brett and visit about these matters individually with him. Time went by and there continued to be – I don't know how many because no one came to me – but through these other board members that I have come to know and trust and have confidence in. [People] had been coming to these other board members. So we [considered], what do we do next? Again it is in your church bylaws. I shared this with a friend that came over to visit with me not long ago. In article 5 it talks about pastors and preachers serving an indefinite term at the pleasure of the congregation. They may be suspended from their duties by the Board of Trustees by an action from the congregation and removed from office pursuant to section 2 of article one of the bylaws. That section talks about this meeting tonight. Brothers and sisters, this is not something that any of us took lightly. We also discussed what is our duty to you who have asked us to serve. Our duty is to follow and to do our work within the framework of God's word and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But there are also those tasks that you have listed for us to do. One task was the following. We would do it only when we felt that it was the right thing to do. It is to ask Brett to rest until we could have a congregational meeting. So, I would encourage you if you do not think that this is the right thing that the board did. It certainly was not done out of spite or out of a desire to hurt Brett. But it was us [as board members] trying to do our best to serve you [in a way] that these by laws are written, and in a way that we understood and interpreted them. So, I think tonight it would not be good to be caught up in discussing whether or not the Church Law of Christ was followed with respect to having this congregational meeting. I think that is the devil trying to inject a wedge into this conversation and to keep us away from the true topic, which is probably two fold. One is the topic Rebecca mentioned earlier, which is discussion around this current widening division in God's Kingdom. The other would be discussion around whether or not the congregation wants Brett to continue to serve us. [1:56:40]
Keith Hillukka: Before John [Redman] speaks, I will make a little comment. This is going along the lines of what Andy [Kesti] said about the board's role and the congregation's role. From the speaker's [meeting] presentation that came from SRK this morning there was a question. And I think it is a good question that we can ask ourselves this evening. Do we feel that the idea that God's congregation takes care of, carries and cares for its speakers? Is this a secure thought? Isn't that why we are here tonight? It is to carry and care for our speakers. We should ask ourselves: is it a secure thought for the congregation? [1:57:40]
John Redman: Like my wife Rebecca said, we moved here roughly three years ago. I have a lot of different thoughts. I will try to work through them. I think there is the question, what is the role of the board? What role do they play? I think Andy [Kesti] had a good point. I was actually the one – Andy, I don't know if you were referencing me or not. I was able to have a nice discussion at Andy's house. He pointed out that per the bylaws it states that if there are concerns the board does have the authority per the bylaws to take that type of action. I have a lot of different thoughts here. First and foremost, I would say, everyone one here collectively we all feel that we want to do the right thing. I do not believe that there is ill intent, or anything like that. As far as Brett Rintamaki [goes], I love him, as well as the congregation members here. The reason for that is because the word of God instructs us to love each other. Some of the questions I have had regarding the removal of a minister. The first question I would have. It is my understanding – at least I am open to hearing what I am missing. I could be missing something. One, if the preacher is to be removed, the preached doctrine would be incorrect. That would be [number] one. Secondly, the life that they live would be contrary to God's word or living in sin. As a congregation we must say, okay, are these the two reasons for removing a minister or is there a third or fourth [reason]? If these are the two reasons, what is the incorrect doctrine that is being preached? I have heard it being stated here -- there are a lot of Scripture portions that are being used [in a sermon]. But a person may leave [services] feeling empty. I have also heard it said here regarding Brett that he has been told that he needs to [take] a stand: How does he believe on these specific matters? I feel that these are the matters that are currently dividing Zion. I feel that when the Word [of God] is preached from the pulpit, it is the pure gospel that is being preached. I feel that he has spoken in regards to that line – if we would say that there is a line. Or if he needs to make a stand, what is the stand that he needs to make? If I would go to a couple of Bible portions. I feel that this speaks to how I would view what we need to make a stand on. Do we serve each other with the gospel? In John chapter 14 verse 23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.” [vss. 23, 24] I feel that Jesus is telling us that we need to stay in his Word. The Father and [Jesus] will make an abode with him. What are Jesus's words and what is his command? If we go to another portion that we all know. We have all heard it many times. In Matthew chapter 28 it says, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” [v. 19] I believe that it has been Brett's desire to serve these congregations. I think that he views himself as a servant of God's Word. If he is to be obedient to God's Word, he would have to listen to this instruction that is given by Jesus and preach the Word [of God] to every living creature throughout the world. There are a lot of different thoughts that have run through my head, but at this point I will take a pause, [2:02:26]
Stefan Forstie: First, I am glad that Andy [Kesti] spoke. I don't know if I got the timeline exactly right. It sounded like Andy, [Keith Hillukka] and another couple met with Brett very shortly before he spoke [his sermon]. [Brett] alluded to the fact – after the sermon he asked – to me he asked forgiveness from the congregation if he had caused any offense. Basically, he was pleading that if he caused offense with anyone that they would have the freedom to approach him. Tonight, we are looking at the idea. Some people are saying [this meeting ] is not about the Church Law of Christ. Other people are asking whether or not he should be preaching. To me, the way it has been presented – as it was announced to the congregation. The announcement came out after Brett's sermon. The way it has been announced to the congregation [in my opinion] – it is more of a [meeting about] the Church Law of Christ issue than a matter of whether or not Brett should continue speaking. We have heard various people [speak about] their offenses and concerns. One guy basically said that Brett lied to him. Other people said that they do not have the Christian freedom with Brett. He is in another group. One thing that has been sticking with me ever since Brett gave that sermon – maybe this is not the best time to bring it up. After the sermon, I heard someone talking to someone else [to Keith]. The person said that the congregation members don't even need to talk to Brett. The board can take care of it. If members of the congregation have concerns, they can just talk to the board. Basically, it is the board's responsibility and not of the members of the congregation to talk to Brett individually. That has not set right with me. Then the other concerns, like Darren was saying – it is clear that there is division in God's Kingdom. It is important for every believer to ask, how do I believe? Maybe I misunderstood Andy. But I think I understood him correctly. With Brett’s repentance – I would say that when he asked for the gospel – for offenses that he caused the congregation. After that it is like it is open season. A few people talked to him after [the ‘repentance’] about their concerns. But now we are at the congregation level [in the Church Law of Christ]. Whether [someone has] talked to [Brett] or not, they're just going to bring up their concerns [publicly about] Brett. The goal is obvious – it does not matter whether Brett is speaking or someone else is speaking – that we would all reach heaven. It matters if there is a clear division and a heresy and there are unbelievers. It does matter if you say – this person is a heretic and another person may say that he is a believer. This matters, but more importantly, when you are talking about how you believe on these matters. If you have the correct understanding, why is there the need to keep digging. I agree with you on this. I heard your sermons. I do not think that you are saying anything wrong. [But] do you need to keep on digging, digging and digging? How do you believe in this and how do you believe in that? How do you think that this person believes? What do you think about how the other person believes? I think that we all need to have our own personal faith that Jesus died for our sins. If we have a conversation and we agree on spiritual matters, that should be enough. You don't need to keep on digging: how do you believe? What about this person or that person? What about this group or that group? … I was not there, so I did not hear Brett’s side of the story when Eric Mattila was visiting with him. When you talk to someone for 4 or 5 hours, can you accept the matters as you hear them? You accept them, but [then] you need to keep on digging into the next layer and the next layer. You need to learn at that moment exactly how someone believes. For all of my sins and doubts, can you forgive me? [2:09:06]
Keith Hillukka: Before Carol [Skoog] goes, I think I heard you say that I said that the board will handle these matters.
Stefan Forsite: No, it was someone talking to you.
Keith Hillukka: I just want to be clear that I have never understood that it is the board's responsibility. That is why we are here tonight. The board has struggled mightily with what we do. It is the congregation's responsibility to care for its speakers.
Carol Skoog, married to Bill: Two or three years ago I was very unsettled after Brett had held the sermon. I called him up. It was so long ago that I cannot remember the 3 topics. There were three parts of the sermon that were repeated several times that sounded unfamiliar to me. So, I was talking about it with Brett … He said that he was only speaking to what the text said. I said that is not how I have heard these topics covered before. We spoke at length. Like I said, it was long ago. I don't remember any more details. In the end, he could not explain himself. He said that if you do not understand that go and read Romans. I didn't know what to do, so I called a board member. I told him what we had gone through. I felt even more unsettled after speaking with Brett. I kept it to myself, mostly, during the last couple of years, thinking that in God's time it will be revealed. A month or two ago, I spoke to a board member again. I said that I am still very uncomfortable. It is not anything personal. It is just that I was hearing a different message. [2:11:33]
Lauri Nevala: Just a couple of thoughts on these matters. First of all, there was a comment made that I don't need to be part of a group – one or the other. Luther wrote in the Creed that there is only one holy congregation. I want to be a part of that congregation. That together with these thoughts – I would like to hear from Brett. I have visited with Brett a couple of times. We had what I felt to be a good visit. I encouraged him to be free more than once. But the congregation needs to know how you believe. We could ask ourselves, why is it so important that the congregation knows how we believe? I think that there have been some comments that have perhaps touched on it. There is the question of leaving [services feeling] empty. When we go to serve God's congregation, we go as Paul has written: as ministers of the New Covenant or the New Testament. [We are] ministers of the spirit and not of the letter. The letter kills but the spirit makes it alive. I have thought about those words and what they mean. How I understand them is like this. We can hear God's word read and explained to us by someone who is outside of God's Kingdom. They might speak – we can't find fault in the written word of God. Perhaps even doctrinally, the words which are spoken are the same. Why is it so that the letter kills? That's what it ends up being when someone – I have heard sermons on the radio that were spoken by unbelieving people. They spoke doctrinally correct. But there wasn't even a possibility for them with the spirit to feed my undying soul. That is why it is important to be open and free, so that we are in the care of the congregation. The congregation knows how we believe. Do we believe as they do or do we not? It is important for the servants of the word to say how they believe. So, Brett, I would like to hear you speak on those matters. It is important that the congregation knows how you believe. It has been mentioned in a couple of comments. I do not remember whose [comments] they were. Simply, we know that there is a spiritual battle in Zion. It is not against individuals as such. But we do battle against the enemy of Souls. I think it is important to remember that even the Bible, if we go there to search for support for our position – if we have one or we have decided on a position – I think we can find Bible text to support it. But do we also find other Bible texts that speak of the same matter that have to be united together with the words? I have to say that at times I have found myself searching for [Bible] text that I could prove something. It did not benefit me because it was from my own mind and desires. But it is the spirit that will teach, comfort and console us, [even] rebuke us. Again, Brett, I would encourage you to be free. Brett, I hope you do not mind that I tell my side of the story when we visit. I told you that I missed you [being] at the board meetings. I missed your point of view that I had heard before. I wanted to see you there [at the board meetings] and I wanted to hear you. Obviously, something has made it difficult for you. I don't know what it is. I cannot look into your heart to know. But I would simply encourage you to be free with the congregation on how you believe. [2:19:45]
Keith Hillukka: Tonight we have heard comments. We know that in God's Kingdom we are fighting a spiritual battle. In multiple comments I have heard: Brett, where are you on these matters? In these battles the congregation here in Phoenix has taken some action in regards to some of these events in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. We have sent a letter. We have decided that we will not send speakers [there]. Here is a question: are you in unity with the congregation on these matters? Or do you feel differently? [2:20:50]
Brandon Niskanen: I reached out to Brett maybe a month or so ago. I thought that maybe I was the problem and I offended Brett. Maybe that is why he was not free with the board for the last year or year-and-a-half. He assured me that it was not the case. I can say for myself that on the board I feel very small. I don't have answers. I have expressed many times at our meetings that I hope the voice of God’s congregation can speak loud and clear in these troubling times. Does our congregation feel – I have heard many people say that they are troubled if Brett does not feel free with his fellow speakers. Brett does not serve the board. I think that the board is very clear about that. Brett serves this congregation. Eric [Mattila] can share with us that he has reached out numerous times to meet with Brett. For whatever reason, it never worked out. This past week he was finally able to meet with Brett. Before he met with Brett, I felt like a lot of the other board members: are we doing the right thing? After we decided to keep Brett off of the schedule, I called a senior member of this congregation. I asked if we did the right thing. His response was that they felt that the Holy Spirit may not be there when speaking with Brett [?]. Eric shared with us on the board about his visit with Brett. Now he shared it with this congregation. … On the one hand, maybe we did do the right thing. The freedom that Brett and I [used to] have is just not the same. I do not know what it is. As his good buddy here tonight, it seems like that freedom is lost. I just want all of us to get along. Keep the faith simple. Go back to the ABCs of faith. Just simply believe. Let's start over again. Can I hear the gospel? [2:25:45]
Cal Siljander: Just a couple of short thoughts. We just moved here in September, so we have not been here very long. Unfortunately, my job keeps me away from [church] on most Sundays. I am not too familiar with all of the issues here in Phoenix. We were members of Minneapolis for many years. We switched out of [Minneapolis] because of the issues. One thing that I do want to bring up. One thing that troubles me with some of the comments that people have made. I do appreciate people speaking up – [but] assuming one’s intent with the meeting. I heard one person mention Eric's [Mattila] meeting with Brett. It sounded like someone assumed intent in terms of digging. I assumed that [Eric’s] intent would be good. I think it is dangerous to assume intent, ultimately it can draw one away from what the important matter is. If someone has a long conversation, it is only where it leads. We can only assume good intent. I think it is dangerous to assume bad intent. During the meetings in Minneapolis the intent was assumed differently. I may sound confused here. Ultimately, in Minneapolis [the meetings] drifted .. the meetings got quite toxic. There was no freedom to discuss matters of the heart. It became more about discussing one's intent with this matter or that matter or this talk or that talk. I feel tonight we are here to talk about Brett. If a minister had met with Brett and shared his feelings related to that. It is important, because that is what we are here for. We are here to hear what is on people's hearts. I want to hear them. It just troubles me to hear attacks on certain individuals for sharing what was on their mind. [2:29:35]
Paul Waaraniemi: I am reluctant to talk because we are only part-time residents here. We do attend services here and hear the same speakers that you hear around members. In our case we are here over one half of a year each year. Just the idea of the congregation knowing how the speaker believes. Why is that important? Even in these times, knowing how they understand and how they stand on matters that are troubling Zion. I feel like, for example 4 or 5 speakers, whatever it is, and the board understands matters in one way, and there is one speaker[s] that does not agree. Even if it would cost their position. There is no salvation in being a speaker. There is no guaranteed crown or anything like that. It is important that a person would dare to speak and care to speak and be a shepherd to speak. Even if they are bringing a different perspective and clarifying a matter – the congregation needs to hear [it]. Maybe the other speakers and board members need to hear it. It would be important to go [to a board meeting] if the board is asking you regarding a concern. Go to the [board meeting] and openly express your understanding. When the brothers, if and when they are erring they could be corrected themself. Congregation servants have been likened to shepherds. The flock hears and knows the voice of the Good Shepherd. If there is concern in the service of one of the servants [one of the shepherds], we don't have to argue about the process. We don't have to argue about what steps were taken and if they were half-handed or not. We are all faulty human beings. Yet, the love and concern and the saving of souls is the most important thing. At this meeting, I have listened and heard many of our speakers – maybe three or four [of them] – and many of [who I think are] the board members here. I have heard humble and weak servants. One feature of the problem that has been going on in Zion – there are a lot of people who are not accepting and see that the local boards and the LLC [board] are believers and are serving in weakness at the will of the congregation. It is so easy to fall into this where we are second-guessing or tearing them down. Like Cal [Siljander] said – thinking of different intents; that people are trying to wield power. I think it is important for all of us, especially for those who are serving in whatever capacity, that they would be open and want the care of the congregation, if they are erring. Because if we go on our own path and think that we can withhold something – the Holy Spirit dwells in the congregation and in the individual believers. Those things will come out anyways. Let's be humble and share our thoughts whether they are correct or not, because the congregation can help us. I have battled with my thoughts and struggles here. I also want to hear the gospel. [2:35:33]
Emery Parks: Andy [Kesti] had a good point, but I figured that I would share my stance. I think his point was that we are here to get the congregation's feedback on Brett. I hope that everyone could grab the mic so that we could hear their feedback, instead of taking someone else's account of it. I think it ultimately leads to a lot of incorrect results. It may even be the reason why there are a lot of people sitting here tonight and scratching their heads, like myself, holy cow, we have been listening to this guy thinking that he was preaching fulfilling sermons and preaching from the Bible. I think that if there are honest people here that they do not have the courage to speak up. These congregation meetings have largely been unproductive. Actually, they feel like bullying sessions. Anyone who speaks up in opposition – whether it is an opposition or with a question – their own faith and salvation is at stake. They get bundled into groups. You are in the minority. It gets really tough to actually share what is on your heart and to have a discussion about your faith. In that way, I can relate to Brett. Why would I want to talk to people? When I come to a meeting, for example. I have been to a few of them and I have spoken up. People say that they have concerns. I feel that I am getting put into a little box that is in the corner. There are like two other people in [the box] with me. It kind of chokes. I don't feel like coming back here and speaking up. There is like a jump to divide things. There is a haste to divide. I would be curious to see in the Bible if Jesus acted that way. I think someone could find a text or they could interpret it such that a division is the way to approach something like this. Cut the alarm off. I am sure there is a text out there [ that supports that]. I don't recall any scenarios from the Bible. I am not a very well read person [in Scripture]. I don't recall that Jesus was hastily dividing and preaching about division and throwing people out. I'm not saying that is happening here. I feel like Jesus was preaching to sinners, just like all of us here. We are all sinners, at least I am. Jesus preached to sinners His entire life and encouraged that it would continue. The point is, if Brett was feeling the lack of freedom to speak up, I can say that I feel the same way. We are trying to corner him here with questions. Then say to Brett, you should speak out; what is your position? It seems a little bit silly because people already know his position. Doesn't his preaching from the pulpit reveal that. If it does reveal it, people then share their concerns with their friends. It turns into this mob mentality. Then you take it to a setting like this. There are people who are even questioning themselves. They just get rolled over by the crowd. It is really tough. There is a facet of human nature here. It is survival [mode] that is kicking in for a lot of people. Anyone who feels very strongly about their position on these things: whether or not Brett should take a stand. Should he be more free? First of all, Brett, I would applaud you for your strength. I cannot say that I have that strength myself that I could be so strong. I don't know if Brett does. He could also be confused. If we want to examine people's beliefs, let's just go down the pew. Start talking to everyone. Let's examine every part of you, whether you are a public [person] or not. It is a strong, aggressive and troubling thing to take a guy into a setting like this and corner him. I felt like some of the questions have been cornering him, even though they have not been. It is tough because there is human nature involved. It is not black and white that he believes this way. We can never get to the bottom of his full beliefs here. Maybe Eric [Mattila] did during his five hour debate. It is human nature. It is not a simple matter. It is not a simple thing. He could be struggling. He may not know. It is very possible that he is literally struggling and he does not know what to do. It is taking time. I myself have not felt empty or unfulfilled [from his sermons] and that he is leading me down the wrong path. I have never had an issue with his sermons. [The thought is] now raised in my head. The easy thing for me to do would be to go with the flow. Take him out. Kick him out. I think it is important for people here to speak up. Maybe we should just send this mic down the row and get people's true opinions. They can talk about their own faith. What are they struggling with? Are they confused? They have no act of freedom. It is tough. I don't know of anyone else here who can relate to that. It is tough to speak up. I just wanted to point out a few things about myself and how I am struggling … It is not an easy topic. I don't want to jump to one side or the other, but I want to understand what is happening here. Someone asked, does Brett side with Wolf Lake or Minneapolis? That is not a real question. You can't ask that question. His faith is way deeper than that. We are trying to put him into a bucket. I don't think it is right. I don't think it is right to put anyone into a bucket. Some people here actually put themselves into a bucket. I hope that they know what they are saying and fully understand the stance that they're taking. That they are in this group. Faith is personal. Are we following man? This is nuts. It is completely nuts to say that you are in a group. Faith is very personal. We live and die by our own salvation and understanding. I am not jumping into a group. I am trying to believe for myself. And I hope that everyone else here is, too. That is the way I was taught, but I could be wrong. I really could be wrong. I have expressed this before at meetings. If anyone wants to chat with me, I would appreciate it. If someone now grabs the mic and says that I have concerns about your comments, I will start to feel like a little piece of dirt. No one ever talks to you after the meetings. It is just straight bullying. It is not conversational. There is no love there. There is no love. Maybe there is love for Brett, but other individuals in the congregation probably go through a similar type of battle as Brett. I'm trying to bring in a little bit of a human element, I guess. Just understand that he could be struggling. Regarding Andy's [Kesti] original thing. I would not ask Brett to rest, because I do feel that he is serving to the best of his abilities through God. Do we really believe that? Again, I could be wrong. That is where I stand. [2:46:50]
Sheryl Simonson: I thought that I would go all night and not say a word. That I would just listen. Here I am. First of all, I would like to address Brett. I am so grateful that you attended [the meeting] tonight. God led your footsteps to the right place. I have to agree with what someone said before. You probably don't know the amount of prayers that have been said on your behalf. To those that have spoken about love and the lack of love – this whole meeting is done in love. Some of the comments that I have heard have made me believe that there are two approaches here. There seems to be more concern with the temporal love. Why are we being so mean? Why are we calling Brett out on all of these issues? Why are we demanding him to tell us how he believes? I believe that among those who have the correct spirit and the correct love – this meeting is to address exactly that. These are matters of life and death. It is spiritual life and death. It is the love for your undying soul that brought every single person to attend this meeting. I do recall that sermon when Brett asked for forgiveness from the congregation. You asked that if anyone would have anything to say to you that they would come to you. My first thought was, oh, what a relief. I am so glad. I have to go and talk to Brett. I came to find you after church. There was already a group of people visiting with you. I thought, well, someone else is visiting with him. I will call him later. Then the devil had time to do his work and convinced me not to call. What would you have to say? Someone else will take care of it. Don't worry about it. Surely, there are people who feel the same way as I do. If I say something, it will be just a repeat of what someone else said. I realized it was wrong. I wish I would have had more strength to pick up the phone and call you. I found every excuse in the book. I'm sure he is busy. I am sure he is at work. I can't bother him now. Whatever. As far as the sermons that have come from the pulpit and not having food. I have to say that that is the feeling I have had. I have not been fed. After the first few times, I thought that it must be the listener. The word is there but it is my own heart. I am not receiving it properly. There have been other sermons [from others] over the many, many years that I have attended. I walked away [thinking that] I did not get anything out of that sermon. Someone else may say that the sermon was just meant for me. That is exactly what I needed to hear. So, I chalked it up to that. I am not getting anything. When I started to notice and feel as to why I was not getting anything. There was nothing wrong with what was spoken, but there just was no revelation and life. Most of it is just the reading of scripture. You cannot say that it is wrong, because every word in the Bible is true. So, if somebody just keeps reading scripture and reading scripture, you can't say that the sermon was faulty. But there just was no life. For those members that have spoken up tonight about how Brett stands on the current issues that are going on in Zion, I have to say that I never have [heard him speak on it]. It was a sermon that I was not at. To this day, I cannot tell you how Brett believes and what his understanding is. It is important in God's kingdom that those who are feeding the flock would have the same spirit. I also have to say, as in the last couple of meetings, I have heard two voices here tonight. I can only see what my spirit has answered and what it has not. It is not about: let’s put it all beside us and behind us and forget it. Kumbaya, everyone just gets along. No, these are serious issues. The love of the spirit and the undying soul is what is so important. I had another thought in my mind. It must be my alzheimers. Yes. In some of the speeches that I have heard tonight and also from Brett’s sermons – very rarely, if that all, is the congregation mother and the Holy Spirit given any sort of weight or importance. I am not demeaning or discounting the work that Christ did. He died on the cross for our sins. But we cannot personally for ourselves look at this and say that this is my salvation. We are not strong enough. We need the love of the congregation and the Holy Spirit and the instruction and the teaching and the reminder and the rebuke to carry us in faith. Our faith is weak. It needs to be fed. To forget about the role and the value of the Triune God is a scary place to go. If someone does not want to belong to a group, I feel really sad for you. I need this group. I need the congregation of Zion to help me, to lift me and to carry me. To … me. And you are strong enough to do that alone. I don't know. I am not. Can I believe my own doubts and sins forgiven? [2:55:45]
Keith Hillukka: Before Nikki [Simonson] goes, I want to go off of Sheryl's last comment. I, too, feel that I need this group. This group is here. And without it I could not make it to heaven. Before you tonight, I have many of my own doubts and sins. Can I believe those forgiven? [2:56:22]
Nikki Simonson: Lisa Koivula … I want to reiterate how important a meeting this really is. Not only are we reaching out and caring for Brett as our minister when it has been brought up that congregation members have concern that they have not felt the Holy Spirit. This is an individual faith but we must all have the Holy Spirit within us to get to heaven. In caring for our ministers, we are not only caring for Brett but also for the whole congregation. We are all coming here [to services] to be fed. We put a minister up when God leads the congregation to do it. There are also times when God, likewise, leads in such a way that the minister would be taken down. So, I would hope and pray that those of you who cannot see the love in it may be led to … This is a very loving thing to do to care for one another – not only for Brett but in general. If you cannot see the love in this, I pray that you can someday. The spirit is here and the spirit is speaking tonight. I pray that you will be able to see that. When we reach out and care for one another in love, if we are concerned it is not saying that we don’t want you. We are saying that we want you to hear this and to repent. The love that is present that Jesus died on the cross – it surpasses all. To have that in our hearts – there is no gift comparable. I pray that you guys can hear the love. On the board level, I feel that you have acted very lovingly with your talking and reaching out and by deciding to bring it to the congregation. We are reaching out to the straying lambs. And we hope that the straying lambs will hear it. Can I also hear the gospel? [2:59:15]
Nikki Simonson: Andy Kesti is the new moderator
Timo Sutinen: We have heard from many speakers tonight. It is obvious that there are very serious concerns over our brother [Brett]. The advice of the [elders] is that if there is a minister that is causing division – or whatever you want to call it – and does not believe in the same as we are [believing], we do not want them to serve the congregation. I have heard that there are two groups in this room. There are some who would lovingly try to rebuke or point out things and there is a second group that simply wants to defend someone. I find that very troubling in God's Kingdom. Rather than humbly accept, we go to defend a certain individual. I have seen that in this current division. I have seen it play [out] over and over again. For instance when John Lehtola was taken [down] – the congregation took him down from speaking. He said something to the effect – he wanted to prove a point or something like that. This is a far bigger situation than proving any point or anything like that. The congregation has concerns, so, therefore, I am making the motion to remove Brett from speaking. [3:01:40]
Andy Kesti: We have a motion on the floor. I don't know if we discuss since it is late here. Is it a motion that would require a vote. Did Keith cover that topic with you.
Someone asks: are we done with the discussion?
Andy: No, we are not. I have to address the motion right now, Neil, before we go to the rest of the people on the list. I had a few people call me in advance of this meeting. They asked if we were going to vote on whether or not the congregation wanted Brett to continue serving. The request is that we would have a closed ballot [vote] that would then be counted.
Keith Hillukka: We do have ballots if the congregation desires to do it. If there is a vote we would have to have everyone sign in to see if there is a quorum.
Andy: Just so we understand. We will have additional discussion on this motion … What I would like to do is – for the Phoenix congregation members – if we do have a vote tonight on this [issue], I would like to see a show of hands on a sign in and a closed ballot . Those who are in favor of that approach for voting, please raise your hand. About 45 people. Those who are opposed to that method, please raise your hand. It is not unanimous but there is a great majority who would want to vote by ballot. Keith, could you think of the logistics of this? What would it take to have a vote tonight if the motion is seconded and the congregation wants to move forward with it. Hopefully, all will be prepared for us.
Andy: . Ken Forstie 1:56 [3:04:43] Andy, you didn't ask you if there would or would not be a show of hands as opposed to a close vote.
Andy: I did not ask I just asked about if we would like to have a closed ballot for this
Ken Forstie: Yeah, I understood what you said but I think the other option is a show of hands. Maybe we should have a show of hands if people want to show their hands. [Laughter]
Andy: That is true. I can’t disagree with that. Then we should change this into a conversation on whether or not we go by show of hands or go by closed ballot.
Keith Hillukka: So, we would need 124 members here to be able to have the vote.
Andy: Irrespective.
Keith: So if we don't [vote] the other option would be at the annual meeting.
Keith: Andy [2:57]: Okay. Okay, did you catch that, Tiff? Tiff? Yeah, I'm fine the motion dies, it's not seconded. Right? Why?
Andy: : Well, that's true. The motion dies if it is not seconded. But if our bylaws say that we can’t vote on this topic anyhow. I think the motion becomes irrelevant at that point.
Andy: ? [3:26] Does Brett still want to speak?
Andy: Okay, so we'll take one thing at a time here. All right. So, I don't think we have 124 members here tonight. But maybe, maybe just so you can qualify that. For those of you who are voting members of Phoenix congregation could you please raise your hand. Keith and Eric Rousu, can you guys try to count and see how many Phoenix members we have here?
Andy: I think you can put your hands down. We have 129 right now. All right. So, I kind of forgot my protocols a little bit. But I think there was a motion on the floor. We need a second. If there's a second to the motion, then we'll have Scott Raisanen and Neil Roberts and Risto Kiviahde who asked to have a speaking turn? The floor would remain open to have discussion on this motion, also. Okay, so we have a motion that Brett would be removed from being a speaker for the Phoenix Laestadian Lutheran church. Is there a second to that motion? We have a second with Mark Young. All right. Okay. So we're back to our discussion now. So we'll move on back to Scott Raisanen next. And after Scott, it will be Neil Roberts. Counting how many members present Scott Raisanen 190 Scott Raisanen 7:23 First of all, I should be the last one to speak here. And like everybody is asking that question. Please forgive all of my sins and doubts. I have heard a lot of comments tonight. And common sense. A lot of them have been geared towards one group or another group. I guess my question. First is, why is there another group? Why are there some Bible classes or Bible studies? Why do we feel that? You know, I've heard people say that they don't want to be part of one group or another. But I have a feeling that some of the people that are attending these other Bible studies and these other things like that are people that I know very well and I've considered them, brothers and sisters in faith. And I'm curious as to why there is the separation between us and a need for a second Bible study or things of that nature. I also heard a brother speak about this. This feeling that everybody's attacking somebody. And I will tell you, I do not hold it that way at all. I know there's been many times in my life that I've needed correction and guidance. And God has sent his escorts here to me, to help me on my walk of faith. And this is not something that I could ever do by myself. We're here to [?] each other and [carry?] each other in love. And I have felt that the meeting and the recent [?] Meeting and stuff like that has been something we [as a] congregation has been sent as escorts to try to help understand where this division is and how … [?] and hopefully, the words spoken here will open up people's [his?] eyes.
Last thing I wanted to talk about was this]. It has been brought out that the board has no authority to do that action that the board did. And I would also like to add that part of that authority is also the responsibility. The board is entrusted to act – in a way – and to do. I they don’t, is there a danger of mortis? The board is responsible to put out that danger and bring it before the congregation? They feel they get solace?
And, you know,
I think there was a question that, well, why don't we just let it go? And why not dig any further and so on and so forth? Well, if we're going to have … there's a lot of division blame for teaching kids about all sorts of different topics, you know, whether it was homosexuality, or all these different things. My worry is here, if we have people that are in a position of being a servant of the word, and they are not living the same way I am. Should they be teaching our children? Should they be sharing God’s Word? if they don't believe the same way. And I say, one last thing, when I put out one word of mouth, somebody had also talked about sending the microphone down the pews and asking everybody how they believe. And I say, our duty as believers to express how we believe.
I'm open to doing that. And if I've offended anybody by my words tonight, I ask that you come and talk to me. Or tell me openly in front of everybody else. I do not feel like this is an inquisition. It is simply all of us trying to better understand and get to heaven.
Keith: Andy? Yes. Can we count one more time? I've recruited some help.
Andy: All right. Great. You got younger people, too. [pause]. Is the count over, Keith. The next speaking turn is Neil Roberts [declines]. Okay. After that, Ben Wuollet. Then Risto Kiviahde will be following Ben.
Ben Wuollet: I wanted to touch on the part of the comment that says it may feel that we're heading right into a corner to force him to speak. And maybe that we're even personally attacking him.
Maybe there are a few comments that were made tonight that may seem like that. I believe that we're not looking to attack him personally. We're looking at the position. And we are all equal in the eyes of God. But as a servant, whether it's a speaker, a board member, Bible class teacher or even Sunday school teacher, you are in a position of influence, not a position of power but a position of influence. So we're looking at that position to see if that position is doing the job that the congregation has asked him to do? We don't attack the person but rather the position. It's not good to personally attack somebody. And I think the majority of the comments tonight have been looking at the position and seeing is the position the position of the congregation the congregation still wants to be open? Or rather should that person be taken out from that position and that position could be refilled with another individual. So, that's the way I would invite you to look at it.
I want and hope that Brett understands that. The majority of the people here, I know, are looking out for him in love. And if he continues to be … taken down, I would have hope and pray that there's that
Acceptance to what the congregation’s wishes are
and whether the decision to be taken down or to continue to speak, to continue to come to services, and believe that there was a speaker brother, that that one of the previous annual meetings that sometimes the speakers need to sit in the pews to learn as well. And they can sometimes learn more by sitting in the pews and listening to some of the other speaker brothers. So I would just pray for that peace, for you Brett and Marita. [16:10] Risto Kiviahde 199 [16:27] I've been sitting here listening here at the Phoenix church. The topic that we got here, we went through the same thing in Minnesota a year ago.There was another speaker who was asked – it was revealed how he believes on these issues. And he never did [explain himself?]. So, the congregation took him off the speaking list. And the saddest thing is that now he joined the Minneapolis [congregation]. He couldn't humble himself. So, what we've been talking [about] here is pretty serious. It's a life and death [question], spiritually. So, another thing I thought about on this same [topic]. We also have the heavenly Father who is in charge. When somebody does not humble himself, you know. See what happens when the people leave their congregation and there is no testimony. Ken Forstie 201 [18:10] I've been listening to a lot of these comments tonight. And I have to say amen to most of them. One thing I don't think we addressed, maybe I missed it. We could invite Brett – and he also has the freedom to ask to be relieved by the congregation, if he feels that he's caused contention or if he's caused questions about his speaking, or whatever. He does have that freedom to ask the congregation to be relieved. Andy Kesti 201 [18:45] Eric Lahti will be next, I'm just going to take a moment to give an interjection from myself. As we consider these matters – as has been expressed – [that are] of great importance, not only from the spiritual perspective of soul care and the serving from the pulpit, but also the temporal stress and pain that these discussions can certainly have. And I just want to remind everyone that the board by asking Brett to rest until this meeting, please don't consider that action to be a statement about whether or not those of us who serve as board members believe Brett should be serving or not. Okay. That was done because as board members, we felt like this was what we needed to do. Because this is a congregational matter, not a matter that resides only with the board. However, we have heard from many of the board members who spoke their psalm about their personal concerns. And those are concerns that should not be given us any more gravity or any more weight, because a person is a minister or a board member or a pastor. Those are comments that were made from humble believers speaking their psalm about this topic. Just want to make sure we remember that this is a congregational matter. It is not a matter of what the other ministers think or the board members think? So, the fact that you are ministers and board members, and here tonight, likely wanting to believe … encourage the Brothers and Sisters, right. Okay. So, Eric Lahti
Eric Lahti: 203 [20:36]
Eric Lahti: Was Ann [Kariniemi] next? Just making sure. So, I just want to touch on the comment that Risto [Kiviahde] just made that we have a very serious matter here. And also, to touch on some of the [other] comments that have been brought up tonight. So, this discussion tonight was brought forth as a time to discuss the congregation’s concerns about our speaker brother, Brett Rintamaki. And I know there were some questions about the Church Law of Christ – was it followed or was not followed? There was a comment that [the Church Law of Christ] has been followed. And one thing. I don't want to muddy the waters, and maybe I'm making it too complicated. Maybe I'm too simple. I don't know what's going on here. But if we look at that Church Law of Christ, it does say in that last step. We are now here in that last step, [so] it's a very serious matter. It says, And if you neglect to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he neglects to hear the church, let him be a heathen and a publican..
I think we should be very clear on what this means here tonight. Is this a matter of the Church of Christ? I think if it was, maybe those matters would have been brought forth to the congregation earlier … [it says to] take with you one or two more, so in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. There's been some comments here tonight. Brett’s sermons don't feed because he's of a different spirit. There's been some comments that he believes differently than the ones that spoke up today. I hope and pray that those that brought those matters up are going to speak to Brett sometime after this meeting. It is a very serious matter. I've had many conversations with Brett. And I touched on that before that it feels like his speaking has reflected what my personal conversations have been with him. I haven't heard anything different from the pulpit as to what I've been through with him. One of my thoughts earlier was on the fruits. And we talked. I know it got brought up many times even after my comment about spirits. I think maybe it'd be good to just read that portion from Galatians [in chapter 5]. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Some of the same fruits are touched on in Timothy, where it talks about a speaker – in Timothy it is referenced as Bishop. It says [in 1 Timothy 3], Chapter 3, 1 This is a true saying, if a man desires the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; That's all I have. Andy Ryan Kumpula 209 Ryan Kumpula?: I have to put my thoughts together. I’ve just been listening. I don't have any personal experiences with Brett in the sense of living in 30 days when he spoke, I don't have any comments to say about what I've felt and not felt. But just listening to the conversations and some of the discussions that people talked about tonight. I guess one of my thoughts is that this discussion about whether or not he will still serve the congregation, it sounds like there's still a lot of people that feel that he can't. And if I had to make a vote – and this is what I would go off of, it seems like a lot of people here are not feeling the same spirit, as they did before, with Brett. And that's something that should be discussed. And I also think it's important – I don't feel like this is a discussion of Brett’s faith. I don't think we’ve talked about some of those things at a personal level. And I don't think we should take it to that point. I think what Eric said about the Church of Christ, is serious. And I think it's important to remember that, too, whether or not Brett is taken down, he still can be a member of the congregation.He can still be believing. And I think that's important to remember, even for me, when we make these kinds of votes, because I have a lot of fear of making that kind of [decision] to take someone down, because it is a serious thing. It's important. And somebody made a comment earlier, about four out of five [?] I kind of thought – do we work like that here in a faith? Is it four or five? Or is it seven out of 10? Or is it? This is how we believe and this is how we feel? And I don't know how to answer that question. But I think that it's more of the same way – all believe the same way versus and now I think that if I was in that position of a minister and I was the one that felt differently, I would wonder, why. And I can speak from personal experience, too. There's been times when I haven't really understood why the congregation has made a decision to go one way or the other. But I've accepted the congregation's position as the Holy Spirit. And I have come to maybe accept that over time. And I think maybe with the speaker, it might be a little bit different if they have a decision or something that they feel differently that impacts the congregation. Maybe they should be taken down and let them find out in their own time. That's not a reflection of their beliefs or their beliefs or their place to be a believer, but just at that time, and in that moment, they're not in the right position to [speak before the] congregation, because they don't have a correct understanding, or they don't have enough understanding. Because sometimes I feel very strongly about one position, and somebody else is very weak. I think we all have those weaknesses, and we all have those different temptations. And if one of us has that, at that time in our life, and we shouldn't be in a position where we have to try that. And from that point, I guess I would think that we all kind of look at those things and determine whether or not it's good time for him to be a speaker to help him with his faith life, not just ours but also his.
Andy: Alright, Shannon Simonson.
Andy: Shannon Simonson 212 [29:18] Myself, I don't think this is about the church law of Christ, with Brett,serving our congregation. This is about whether he speaks for our congregation. Is he in the love of the congregation as a speaker, not as somebody that is sitting in the pew. As far as Eric’s last comment that he had. Personally, I feel there's two groups here in this church. One is believing and one's not. It troubles me. Now think
one side of your talk The Other Side and believing one way or another. It's only through the work of God that that can be done. Through listening ears and wanting to believe. But as far as Brett speaking – I just don't know how to say any more. It feels like that division is already here. Glen Wisuri 213 [30:44] I just wanted to comment. We discussed it in one of the board meetings, which I've attended – many of them, but not all of them. Tonight, I guess, I thought in my own self that I have seen servants that are desiring to serve the Phoenix congregation. And [in] one of those [?] we visited. More recently was this topic, then. This is a question of whether a servant serves the congregation. And there is certainly a greater importance of whether someone is on the way to heaven. But at this meeting, it is whether a person would serve the congregation. [31:44] Molly Raisanen 215 [31:56] some tests on it earlier, maybe multiple people did and take it a little bit further. Regarding the Bible verses that were brought up here, I kind of am looking at those as being the Bible – of sort – of being weaponized. I used to work at a huge company, a huge corporation. My manager there read the Bible four times. Now, while I might have asked her where maybe something was in the Bible, as far as as far as the historical reference, and, and whatever, maybe one day, Jesus went here and there or whatever, I probably wouldn't have asked her for spiritual guidance, because just because she knows the Bible, it doesn't mean she has the the Holy Spirit experience. She can’t explain spiritual matters to me, she can't. She's not believing. And, and so just because somebody can read Bible verses – I can open the Bible and read Bible verses [in front of the] church. It doesn't mean I'm applying spiritual understanding and so forth, as far as giving the sermon. And so I think, I think that, first maybe some of this is being missed. The Holy Spirit needs to be applied. And that's how we understand it. Probably most of the time, .., I don't read it because I don't understand a lot of it. I have to listen, listen to the Holy Spirit to explain it to me. And so I get worried when they bring up all these Bible verses, because I think they're just – it's like, well, here it says this, here says, here says that this, [it] proves our point, you know, we're proving points here. I don't think God or Jesus would want us to bring up all these verses and use their words to prove points. I don’t think that's what this is about. Brett Raisanen 217 [33:58] I was not eager to come here tonight. I had lots of doubts and lots of fears in my mind. First, can I hear that gospel? I speak from the heart. So much I speak from the heart [that] I'm not going to quote Bible verses. I've heard of different people. So we can talk about this because we didn't name it. There's a reason you can have spiritual topics we have named that. We didn't call it that. I don't know when you I guess, if I was dying and about 10 seconds to live. And there was another believer there. We could have even though there's no agenda, or topic comments, this is a serious matter. This is important. Why did it come out right away from a comment earlier. Well, it was Christmas and everything else. There were a lot of things going on. So they tried to get this and even talk to Brett. People [should] talk to Brian and see how he feels on these matters. You know, one thing I struggle with. The board has brought out that they've tried to reach out, he has not been coming to the board meetings. No ministers have to go to board meetings. But they're encouraged [to do so]. They usually do [go], you know, compliment so when I hear when he's lazy, he's busy and well one's faith a priority to get to heaven. When does that become a priority?
Good, I think tonight was gonna be a logo. See, will Brett still serve? No, but that's what's come out of it. And everybody has spoken. You hear – I struggle with the words, but it's almost like there's campaigns for Brett. And we often joke, you know, don't do anything funky, a minister you know, get anything versus doing that job. And so it's good to know if I know this is God's plan, or not, not one individual. It's a spirit all speaks to vote, gardens, and Brett is no longer serving. I would say amen to that. That's the spirit of the congregation speaking.
And how long do we have to wait? We've actually known the spiritual battles going on for years and years and years. There's certain LLC board members that have had heart attacks. They have had health concerns, too. So, do we just forget that a heart attack did happen? You know, I mean, it's a battle out there. It's a serious battle. And I've certainly had discussions. Faith Comes By Hearing. If the vote comes in and Brett is relieved of his duties. It is not being kicked out. Come and listen, I gave us two years ago I was learning. [?] Lauri Nevala 221 my heart is sad Ryan Koivisto 231 Steve Kariniemi 234 Bruce Wuollet 237 Andy Eric Lahti 240 Andy Doug Mattila 242 Andy Mike Riutta 244 Mikko Pasanen 249 Andy 251 ? [252] Keith and Andy are discussing it back there. I would recommend – I know there's a motion on the floor. Maybe we have to vote on that first. Maybe just wait. We have an annual meeting coming up. It looks like a lot of people have left. The congregation has had a chance to speak. People can think about it over a few weeks. My hope is that – it feels that the overwhelming direction of the congregation is that Brett would not speak. It would be easiest if he would resign. If not, we do have an annual meeting coming up. When we do a ratification of speakers, we could deal with it then. Tom Johnson [254] I had the opportunity to visit with Brett this afternoon with much fear and trembling. But we had a short discussion. I told him and encouraged him to come to this meeting and hear what the Holy Spirit has to say. My heart has said amen to most of the speeches tonight. The congregation has spoken and the Holy Spirit has called. Like a few comments have been made and even a comment was made to me today – you don't have to speak. You can get to heaven in the pews listening. When I saw you [Brett] walk in tonight, my heart rejoiced that God called you here to hear what spirit says. I would again – as many others have spoken – to encourage you to speak. For my many fears and doubts, can I hear the gospel?
Andy Kesti: On the topic. I think a couple of congregants suggested that Brett would want to resign from speaking. But in all fairness to Brett and in due respect to how our congregation works. We don't have a quorum. We don't have enough people except for his resignation. That is only something that can be done with the congregation. But, of course, from the perspective of Brett not having speaking turns between now and whenever this topic would come up again. I think that's something that the board can continue – you can discuss and visit with Brett about between now and whenever we would meet again next. There's also a discussion around this – would this be a topic at the annual meeting? And, for better, for worse, I think we rarely get a quorum at our annual meeting. So I don't know if that came to the point of Brett’s resignation or Brett being asked not to serve anymore as a speaker in this congregation. We'd have to just make sure that enough people came, so we had obviously had the correct representation for that discussion. Somebody just raised their hand, but I don’t remember who it was. Can you raise your hand again? Over here, okay, Keith.
Andy Kesti: Keith Hillukka [257] So, just to clarify. I don't think we need a quorum for a pastor to resign. If the congregation is going to suspend them or remove them, we need a quorum on the congregation. Andy Brett, what are your thoughts on that? Timo Sutinen [257] I've got one comment on the quorum. You might want to look at the bylaws. Quorum might be that it is the quorum of the members present instead of the quorum of everyone on the roster. Andy I'll leave that for Keith [Hillukka] to review that back there. Brett, would you like to speak to this topic right now or? Brett Rintamaki 258 - 297 I’m a little uncertain how to approach this. I've heard some things tonight that Brett believes this way or that way, which haven't been an accurate picture. I don't know how to address all those. I'm not trying to justify myself. I figure the easiest way to start this is to go through the timeline. from my perspective. Shannon [Simonson] mentioned a meeting in June. We did get together and visit kind of an unrelated matter and then to visit about these topics of today's time. In June, I wasn't at the board meetings. We had company in town.
In a day or two – I don't remember [how long] after that board meeting – one of the board members contacted me. He said that somebody had come with some concerns. And they discussed it at the board meeting. And they'd like to set up a meeting with two board members and a speaker to visit about these concerns. I asked what the concerns were and this individual did not know or at least he stated that he did not know.
I felt I was kind of put in an awkward spot. I asked the board member if I have concerns about them. And I [would have] approached the board. And the board sends two board members and a speaker to visit with him about my concerns which they aren't aware of. Isn't that kind of an awkward position to be in? The request was to set up a day and a time to meet. And we had a lot going on in our life at that moment. [family medical details omitted] I spent three days at the station. So, I spent 72 hours in a row. The last thing on my mind, honestly, was setting up a meeting. I had a lot of other things to take care of at the moment. The following week, I had to serve at Bible class. The board member approached me about setting up this meeting
I would back up to the phone call the previous week. I asked whoever had the concerns if they could please visit with me. It could be something I said, something I misunderstood, something that misunderstood. But I felt that the healthiest way to approach the matter would be to visit with whoever had a concern. The following week, after Bible class, we discussed. It was my request at that point. That again, I would like to visit with whoever has these concerns. If any of the board members have concerns, if they wouldn't please reach out to me. And this board over asked if that was the message they should bring back to the board meeting? I said, yes, please. I heard nothing through the rest of June or July. In August, I was on my way back from Michigan and am in Minnesota. A Board Member reached out to me after, I guess the day after the August board meeting, which I wasn't able to attend because I was out of town. At that point, I had poor cell service, and they said as much. They said nothing specific. They will catch up when you're back in the town. This individual was one that was coming to meet with me in June or wanting to meet. When he said [that there was] nothing specific, I took the word for what it was.
There was a speaker and board member’s meeting shortly after I got back from my trip. I was gone for maybe a month this summer.
My schedule has caused much conflict and concern with people, and there's nothing I can really do about it. My schedule is set for the next two years. I'm on for 48 hours and I'm off for 96. Unfortunately, I miss a lot of things – birthdays, holidays and so forth. Again, I was coming back from a month-long vacation. I do have
a business. I also was on my day off. I wasn't sure what the week would bring when I got back home. I had to pay back some shifts that I had traded, so I could go on vacation.
And it felt to me that the [purpose?] that meeting was not brought to me on purpose truthfully. It was to discuss the events taking place in North America Zion, but that whole meeting was hinging on my attendance.
I expressed this to a couple of the board members, maybe back in October, September.
In September, one of the board members reached out to me as a fellow traveler to discuss the way and the journey. I asked that we can meet in person because I didn't want to try to discuss through text messages. And so, we were able to meet. I felt that we had a very nice visit. It was my understanding that he was going to relate discussion back to the next board meeting, which again I was on shift for. After that board meeting, two board members needed to visit at the request of the board to discuss the discussion that took place at the board meeting. If I understood correctly, the thought of this visit was there will be a congregational discussion. So, this was in the middle of October. I still had not heard what the concerns were. Nor was I approached by anybody with any concerns.
From that discussion, it was my understanding that the board was at a loss of what to do. And we felt – those of us gathered there at our house – that perhaps we should visit about the church law of Christ.
The feeling we had on the board was expressed [?]. The next morning it was scheduled to serve. I asked from the pulpit if those with concerns can come visit with me. There was no reason for the board to be burdened.
There's been this thought of freedom lost. I would say there's freedom lost for each one of us. It was my humble prayer that day when I asked those with concerns to come visit. After the service there were some that came to visit, some with words of encouragement. One [person] asked if I was in unity with the congregation. But I don't know what they were asking 100%. Because I suppose what's the commotion going on, they moved on.
I appreciate the fact that they came to speak. As Mark [Young?] we visited that day. When Mark came to speak to me, he said he did not have concerns with my sermons.
We spoke for a bit. He then asked if I was in the other group? And my answer was, I wasn't aware that there was a heresy. I'm aware that there are many misunderstandings going on right now. And to say that [there is a] false spirit. I guess for me personally, there are two spirits, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of the devil. I think it is a serious matter. I'm not ignoring the fact that there are battles in God's kingdom. I have not been a part of the meetings or events that took place there in Minnesota.
I do not want to base my actions on secondhand information, hearsay and rumors. So, after that service in October, there was another meeting scheduled for the following Tuesday, which I was not able to attend because I was on shift,
But I received a text message, which I will read. I will leave the individual's name out. But maybe this will give perspective [about] what was on my heart and mind. “Good morning, Brett. My heart rejoices that God gave you the strength to care for matters both known and unknown. I can only imagine what a trial it was to have unclear concerns [said] about you by unknown members of the congregation. At our board meeting tonight, I expect we will discuss how the Board should react to the congregants, following a similar path in the future. And it's my personal concern that some members of our congregation may be erring on the side of dryness and being demanding. My personal testimony is that God has continued to keep you in his flock and that the righteousness of life will continue to follow the righteousness of faith. If burdens become heavy, and you need someone to talk to you, I sincerely hope I can be a trusted and a travel companion with you. As I am sure you will be for me. One other item I also asked on your behalf that others on the board reach out to you to take care of offenses they may have caused. I pray that they do. And if they do not have the strength, I pray that God will provide you with a gracious heart that overlooks their offenses.”
I hold no ill feelings. My understanding was at the end of October, based off of this text message that there would be a congregational discussion on the Church Law of Christ. The message that I received in December that it was taken off the schedule came as a surprise to me. This is not a position that I desire. I desire to be obedient to God and His will. I don't feel it is my way [?] to say whether I serve or not. If God asked me to serve, I try to humbly serve.
For me, the role of a servant is simply – as I view it – that I've been asked to preach God's word. It is my prayer that will be preached in purity. Christ commanded us to preach for all nations, all creatures, all people. Paul teaches to preach in season and out of season. The sower of the seed goes forth and spreads it on all types of soil. Christ asked Peter if he loves him more than his disciples.
Peter said, Lord, you know that I love you. Jesus' words were to feed my sheep. I personally am [not] making a judgment on who God has called or chosen. If [I am] asked to serve, the desire is to serve. There is one hope, one faith, one God. There are so many topics that we could discuss. But perhaps if one has a question [about] what I believe, think or my opinion, I want an open invitation to come visit with me.
I know it doesn't discount the battles that are taking place. We are all simple [human] beings. Our sure foundation is Christ. The congregation is the pillar and ground of the truth. So, the duty of the congregation is to uphold God's word. And we will uphold God's Word in purity. That is not to say that we as individuals can’t err. We as groups of people can err, we as congregations can err.
We believe in a Triune God, a Father, a Son and the Holy Spirit. These three are one. I think it is a place to be careful when we start to use the spirits and say that the spirits lead this or that. There's also a place of watching to say that the spirit has not led.
The spirit is one part of the Godhead. Do we want to put ourselves in the place of God? Jesus said that the comforter would come and bring all things. Teach all things and bring to remembrance to those things which Christ has taught. The Spirit of God dwells – as the Bible tells – in each child of God. We have these gifts which God has given. We have services, we have the gospel, we have fellowship, camps. All these gifts, confession and so forth. God has given these gifts so that our faith can remain in the center of that field. When we think of the Spirit and its work, the spirit sanctifies a child of God and makes him holy and righteous before God through our Savior, Jesus Christ. The spirit does not reveal something different than what Christ has taught. When Christ was here on this earth, He said, he that has an ear, let him hear. Let him hear what Christ is teaching. When Christ gave those words to our brother John on the Isle of Patmos in the book revelations.
He said, he that has an ear, let him hear when the spirit says onto the churches. Christ was the resurrected Christ. He was in heaven. And in the spirit he spoke to John, those words which to write. The spirit is still revealing Christ’s instruction. And so I will be honest with you, because this topic of serving different congregations in Minnesota has been a topic. I don't understand why the decision went the way it did. And I'm not going to battle the decision. But to me, it seems that it's in conflict with God's word. God's word instructs to go preach. Though there may be some that are erring, can we judge a whole congregation? I don't know that. There's a very serious picture given. Christ said when he comes at the end of time – you will say unto those, you fed me when I was hungry. You clothed me when I was naked. You visited me in prison. And they asked, when have we done those things? And his reply is, when you have done to the least of mine. But for those who did not need feed or cloth, what happened? They were cast into outer darkness. That is a place that I hope [where] none of us wants to be. Our Heavenly Father is a patient God. His time is not our time. His ways are not our ways.
I am content to say, thy will be done. It is God's battle, that he can look into the heart of each and every one of us.
May God have mercy on us all. And for my many failings and doubts. If I have caused confusion, whatever it is, my sin-corrupt portion has failed. And I ask if I could hear that gospel? May I still believe it? [gospel preached]
I would also like to preach that gospel onto you. Lift up your hearts, no matter how you find yourself. Believe all sins, doubts forgiven in Jesus’ name and precious atonement blood. This is not a battle, as we heard, against flesh. The devil has been successful. How is it that we fight against this – our fleshly portion, the world, the enemy of the souls? God has given us all that is necessary. We have his word as our guide. is lobbying saying his only some [??} … He did that work on our behalf. We have this precious gospel message. Son and daughter, be of good cheer. Your sins are forgiven [unto you].
Let us each look within ourselves. May we, as Christ instructed, pick up the cross and follow him. I've heard a couple of the comments that I preach grace and no truth or very little truth. I guess I would like to visit more on those matters. I feel that God's word contains both grace and truth. God’s Word is that two- edged sword. So, when it is preached, His Word is preached. It contains the law and the gospel. The law is meant for the one that is not a child of God. The Gospel is meant for the child of God and for the one that is outside of God's kingdom, that they would be also able to experience this joy that a child of God can own – the forgiveness of sin. I guess I don't remember the other comments. But I would encourage you, brother and sisters, if you have a question or concern, please come and visit. Outside of those couple concerns that I mentioned earlier, I have not been approached with concerns. Unless I have forgotten one or two individuals, I guess I would encourage you to reach.
I to this day don't know what these concerns were. Because I was my understanding that it was from a sermon.
The timeline that I gave you is the timeline I went through. I was honestly confused. And I mentioned this when I received a call. It felt that matters were heading 180 degrees the other direction. The events have taken place, and I hold no hard feelings. May the congregation decide. I guess I would ask that I not be asked to carry that decision. In my own mind, it could be something that I wonder if I made the right decision or not. If the CONGREGATION chooses that I rest, I rest. If the congregation chooses to have me speak, I will speak. I would ask that you wish to carry me and my family in prayer. And we will also carry you in prayer. May God [bestown] his grace on each of us, so that one day we may reach that heavenly goal. That we may be reunited with those saints who have gone before [us]. That we may gather around the throne of our Lord and Savior, giving thanks and praise unto him. Let us not forget to give thanks unto our heavenly father even this day, [for] all those blessings which he has given unto us, but also the trials. Remain believing, brothers and sisters, in the promises of God through that gift of faith which he has given each one of his children.
Unknown Speaker: I closed down on that that would be counted in them so we do
Unknown Speaker: available is the congregation desire for to do that ballots?
Unknown Speaker: And if there is a hole, we would have to have the sign and also
Unknown Speaker: okay. All right, so just looking for a quorum, right? Okay, so just so we understand that that we will have additional discussion vote on this motion and what other people who are in line in queue to talk about but what I'd like to do is just to for those in the congregation members, if we do end up having a vote tonight on this, I'd like to see a show of hands supporting a sign and and a quote there valid. Those who would be in favor of that approach for voting please raise your hand make the monthly basis general generally about 45 people, okay. Those opposed to their methodology for making a decision today, please raise your hand we have not unanimous but we do have an overwhelming majority who would prefer to if we are going to have a vote on a motion to do with vehicles ballot. Keith, if you could think about the logistics of that. But it might take to have a vote tonight. And then we can once we get this motion seconded in the congregation. If someone's bored with that approach, then we'll have hopefully they'll be prepared for us. Ken Forstie 1:56 [3:04:46] Andy, you didn't ask you if there would or would not be a show of hands as opposed to a close vote.
Ben Wuollet: I wanted to touch on the part for the comment that says it may feel that we're heading right into a corner to force him to speak. And maybe that we're even personally attacking him.
Risto Kiviahde: I've been sitting here listening here at the Phoenix church. The topic that we got here, we went through the same thing in Minnesota a year ago. There was another speaker who was asked – it was revealed how he believes on these issues. And he never did [explain himself?]. So, the congregation took him off the speaking list. And the saddest thing is that now he joined the Minneapolis [congregation]. He couldn't humble himself. So, what we've been talking [about] here is pretty serious. It's a life and death [question], spiritually. So, another thing I thought about on this same [topic]. We also have the heavenly Father who is in charge. When somebody does not humble himself, you know. See what happens when the people leave their congregation and there is no testimony. Andy, hang on. Ann Kariniemi is right before you. Do you have a comment? Okay. Ken Forstie.
Ken Forstie: I've been listening to a lot of these comments tonight. And I have to say amen to most of them. One thing I don't think we addressed, maybe I missed it. We could invite Brett – and he also has the freedom to ask to be relieved by the congregation, if he feels that he's caused contention or if he's caused questions about his speaking, or whatever. He does have that freedom to ask the congregation to be relieved.
Andy: Eric Lahti will be next, I'm just going to take a moment to give an interjection from myself. As we consider these matters – as has been expressed – [that are] of great importance, not only from the spiritual perspective of soul care and the serving from the pulpit, but also the temporal stress and pain that these discussions can certainly have. And I just want to remind everyone that the board by asking Brett to rest until this meeting, please don't consider that action to be a statement about whether or not those of us who serve as board members believe Brett should be serving or not. Okay. That was done because as board members, we felt like this was what we needed to do. Because this is a congregational matter, not a matter that resides only with the board. However, we have heard from many of the board members who spoke their psalm about their personal concerns. And those are concerns that should not be given us any more gravity or any more weight, because a person is a minister or a board member or a pastor. Those are comments that were made from humble believers speaking their psalm about this topic. Just want to make sure we remember that this is a congregational matter. It is not a matter of what the other ministers think or the board members think? So, the fact that you are ministers and board members, and here tonight, likely wanting to believe … encourage the Brothers and Sisters in faith. Okay. So, Eric Lahti
Andy: Next step, right.
Andy: Ryan Kumpula?: I have to put my thoughts together. I’ve just been listening. I don't have any personal experiences with Brett in the sense of living in 30 days when he spoke, I don't have any comments to say about what I've felt and not felt. But just listening to the conversations and some of the discussions that people talked about tonight. I guess one of my thoughts is that this discussion about whether or not he will still serve the congregation, it sounds like there's still a lot of people that feel that he can't. And if I had to make a vote – and this is what I would go off of, it seems like a lot of people here are not feeling the same spirit, as they did before, with Brett. And that's something that should be discussed. And I also think it's important – I don't feel like this is a discussion of Brett’s faith. I don't think we’ve talked about some of those things at a personal level. And I don't think we should take it to that point. I think what Eric said about the Church of Christ, is serious. And I think it's important to remember that, too, whether or not Brett is taken down, he still can be a member of the congregation.He can still be believing. And I think that's important to remember, even for me, when we make these kinds of votes, because I have a lot of fear of making that kind of [decision] to take someone down, because it is a serious thing. It's important. And somebody made a comment earlier, about four out of five [?] I kind of thought – do we work like that here in a faith? Is it four or five? Or is it seven out of 10? Or is it? This is how we believe and this is how we feel? And I don't know how to answer that question. But I think that it's more of the same way – all believe the same way versus and now I think that if I was in that position of a minister and I was the one that felt differently, I would wonder, why. And I can speak from personal experience, too. There's been times when I haven't really understood why the congregation has made a decision to go one way or the other. But I've accepted the congregation's position as the Holy Spirit. And I have come to maybe accept that over time. And I think maybe with the speaker, it might be a little bit different if they have a decision or something that they feel differently that impacts the congregation. Maybe they should be taken down and let them find out in their own time. That's not a reflection of their beliefs or their beliefs or their place to be a believer, but just at that time, and in that moment, they're not in the right position to [speak before the] congregation, because they don't have a correct understanding, or they don't have enough understanding. Because sometimes I feel very strongly about one position, and somebody else is very weak. I think we all have those weaknesses, and we all have those different temptations. And if one of us has that, at that time in our life, and we shouldn't be in a position where we have to try that. And from that point, I guess I would think that we all kind of look at those things and determine whether or not it's good time for him to be a speaker to help him with his faith life, not just ours but also his.
Shannon Simonson: Myself, I don't think this is about the church law of Christ, with Brett,serving our congregation. This is about whether he speaks for our congregation. Is he in the love of the congregation as a speaker, not as somebody that is sitting in the pew. As far as Eric’s last comment that he had. Personally, I feel there's two groups here in this church. One is believing and one's not. It troubles me. Now think
Glenn Wisuri: I just wanted to comment. We discussed it in one of the board meetings, which I've attended – many of them, but not all of them. Tonight, I guess, I thought in my own self that I have seen servants that are desiring to serve the Phoenix congregation. And [in] one of those [?] we visited. More recently was this topic, then. This is a question of whether a servant serves the congregation. And there is certainly a greater importance of whether someone is on the way to heaven. But at this meeting, it is whether a person would serve the congregation. [31:44]
Molly Raisanen: some tests on it earlier, maybe multiple people did and take it a little bit further. Regarding the Bible verses that were brought up here, I kind of am looking at those as being the Bible – of sort – of being weaponized. I used to work at a huge company, a huge corporation. My manager there read the Bible four times. Now, while I might have asked her where maybe something was in the Bible, as far as as far as the historical reference, and, and whatever, maybe one day, Jesus went here and there or whatever, I probably wouldn't have asked her for spiritual guidance, because just because she knows the Bible, it doesn't mean she has the the Holy Spirit experience. She can’t explain spiritual matters to me, she can't. She's not believing. And, and so just because somebody can read Bible verses – I can open the Bible and read Bible verses [in front of the] church. It doesn't mean I'm applying spiritual understanding and so forth, as far as giving the sermon. And so I think, I think that, first maybe some of this is being missed. The Holy Spirit needs to be applied. And that's how we understand it. Probably most of the time, .., I don't read it because I don't understand a lot of it. I have to listen, listen to the Holy Spirit to explain it to me. And so I get worried when they bring up all these Bible verses, because I think they're just – it's like, well, here it says this, here says, here says that this, [it] proves our point, you know, we're proving points here. I don't think God or Jesus would want us to bring up all these verses and use their words to prove points. I don’t think that's what this is about.
Brett Raisanen: I was not eager to come here tonight. I had lots of doubts and lots of fears in my mind. First, can I hear that gospel?
I speak from the heart. So much I speak from the heart [that] I'm not going to quote Bible verses. I've heard of different people. So we can talk about this because we didn't name it. There's a reason you can have spiritual topics we have named that. We didn't call
I guess, if I was dying and about 10 seconds to live. And there was another believer there. We could have even though there's no agenda, or topic comments, this is a serious matter. This is important. Why did it come out right away from a comment earlier. Well, it was Christmas and everything else. There was a lot of things going on. So they tried to get this and even talk to Brett. People [should] talk to Brian and see how he feels on these matters. You know, one thing I struggle with. The board has brought out that they've tried to reach out, he has not been coming to the board meetings. No ministers have to go to board meetings. But they're encouraged [to do so]. They usually do [go], you know, compliment so when I hear when he's lazy, he's busy and well
one's faith a priority to get to heaven. When does that become a priority?
Lauri Nevala: … a question was raised: is this a Church Law of Christ meeting? My thoughts go a couple of different ways. First of all, having said at the board meeting, when the board decided to call this meeting, the meeting was to discuss whether or not – to discuss the concerns. And the concerns are valid about whether or not Brett would serve. I guess my own understanding of this is – then and still is that – the congregation calls servants. The congregation also asks servants to rest. [It is] not meaning – now you are no longer a child of God. To me, it seems like debating the church law of Christ tonight – just to go start debating, rather than discussing, would be the wrong thing. Now, I perfectly followed the words of Scripture .. it puts my mind … now, everything I do has to be exactly according to the Word of God. And it should .. finally, if we begin to expect perfection from [imperfect people] … we trust that the spirit still guides even in the midst of imperfect people. [41:25]
So, that's my thoughts on the Church of Christ issue. Is it also seen from some of the comments tonight. There have been others who have boldly stated that there are two groups here tonight. God's Kingdom is made up of one group. God's Kingdom is guided by the Spirit, which does not divide.
God's Spirit is one which does rebuke sometimes, because we need it.
It teaches us all things. That's what the disciples were told. So, if we hope that spirit is in our midst to teach, guide and rebuke. We don't have much of anything to stand on anymore. Without the Holy Spirit of God we are on our own. First of all, life of faith to reach heaven. I also had a coworker who could quote scriptures from any place in the Bible you asked him to.
But he's not believing, either. Quoting the scriptures – he quoted much of it to me, when we spoke of the Bible.
But knowing scriptures and quoting scriptures didn’t bring him to God's Kingdom. He hadn't been able to humble his heart. So, it's a sad place where we are tonight.
First of all, we would even have to consider the matter of asking one of our ministers to no longer serve in our midst. But what's even more sad.
It is this. There do appear to be two groups. Whether we say we don't want groups or not. It seems to be that there are. And that makes me sad. Also brings doubts, fears and worries – Where do I stand? How do others know where I stand? The only way they will know. This is with the unity of the Spirit. And being free to discuss how we understand and how we believe. The board members have spoken among themselves, in perhaps difficult board meetings
They are difficult for more than one reason. First of all, I don't think anybody wanted to talk about these matters.
They come there with their fears and doubts. Who am I to even talk about it? And then, through the discussion, they have been free to bring their own understanding, their own visits that they've had with congregation members, not by name. These are the concerns or the joys, whichever they may be, that they have asked to be related to the board. And sometimes, as with this topic, it becomes difficult for them to discuss. It's difficult because each of us finds in ourselves that which is sinful, that which is weak, that which is poor. But through the discussion through the guidance of the Spirit, as you've heard the board members speak of it tonight. And I at many board meetings have been able to witness even how the spirit has brought unity – unity of spirit, unity of understanding. It has been precious to see that. so, those are my thoughts, worries, and fears. And I would have to ask – can I believe the gospel of forgiveness?
Unknown Speaker: if you're just the follow up one of the people talking about it, I too, don't necessarily build it or view this as the church mob Christ matter. I don't know if the underlying matters are such that there's care needed. But But But my view on this from a standpoint of a board member has always been that we were we served the congregation we have a spiritual responsibility to the congregation. And I feel that there's been been concerns. And so it and we agonize over as many many more meetings and I felt that this was a matter for the congregation. It's not something we as a Board have to have to shoulder ourselves or should shoulder it's also a matter for the congregation to discuss and like others have mentioned just weather. Brett serves us as a speaker that's I don't think that's us looking into his heart and saying he's not a believer. I just view it as the same way that speakers have put up that the congregation is led by the Holy Spirit and that's how I view this. This is well one thing when Cheryl was talking about the love the congregation been triggered in my mind and my shoulder, the breath my content Congress have a conversation with them. But I feel like on a on a big level, this is this this, this division that's in xiety is Is there is there I feel there is two groups and one group reaches grace, but doesn't want to preach the truth of God's Word. And the other group. I feel teachers like Jesus, we know that Jesus came full of grace and truth that, that he's that the other group and the way I believe has taught both of those things, to me that, that that truth is 10% of the congregation that is the pillar and grownup troop and I haven't personally heard that that message from from Brad not meaning that he doesn't, doesn't, doesn't believe that or, or whatnot. But I just haven't haven't haven't heard that. And especially in these times where I go there, there is a division and ceiling surrounds a lot of its roles at
Unknown Speaker: hear speakers speak on that. And I felt like I've heard it from the other speakers, they've they speak both of this, this work that Jesus did for us and died for us, and also that proof that resides in the congregation and the Holy Spirit that leaves and guides the
Unknown Speaker: congregation.
Unknown Speaker: So and I would, I would encourage, read again, hopefully you can speak on these matters. I encouraged in my talk on the speech of song and hopefully, hopefully, he's going to do them. We're about the last three years, I
Unknown Speaker: are as the Bible talks about removing a minister.
Unknown Speaker: And I haven't been able to find it. And the only
Unknown Speaker: answer I've been humans is that the minister has cheated like all the other levers that we use the Church of Christ.
Unknown Speaker: And that if there was something the minister was saying that was bothering you, of course, you'd go talk to him, and you need to be free to do that. It's now you're not even accusing. Now you're trying to understand what what it was. And that causes confusion, still, you receive to have a difference of opinion. You're supposed to get assistance. You go get that so that the Bible says read every word may be established. So you're putting into some real clarity, to the issues of concern. This is very important.
Unknown Speaker: if you still have this disagreement to different understanding, you do bring it to the congregation. But now you come to the congregation prepared, you're prepared to say that this, this is the issues. It's either this issue or it's several of these issues. And this is what I will have to say on these matters. So that we are rooted in this and we are rooted in this church, long Christ. Yeah, I understand that we don't always follow the church love Christ. Because we're humans, and we do make errors and we forget these things. But we still adhere to that belief very, very strongly. First of all,
Unknown Speaker: that the person is put up to speak, gifts that are seen. And one thing to remember is that the gifts are gods and they belong to God and the congregation. They did not belong to the individual person. And if those gifts if for whatever reason God sees to take those gifts, either perhaps people have misused them or they have not used them. Or there's other reasons why those gifts are no longer no longer evidence that a person could ask and this is this is a discussion we have here that we're having. The difficulty I have is when a fight is put up not one of them has come to the congregation is to know what what gifts you see me Why are you asking me to serve? But when people are asked to read or when the discussion comes up, show me where I'm wrong. is just a really defensive position when perhaps the gifts are just not there. And that's okay, I look around the room and there's more non speakers and there are speakers. We don't all have those gifts. And maybe those gifts are just not there. And that's okay. There's other things that people can do to serve the congregation. So I think all of us should consider that when we're considering these matters, especially the speakers that you didn't look inward and say, Boy, I don't think yes, I don't think any one of you I've never heard a speaker saying that. But then when it comes up to you know, maybe it's time cannot serve under there's some concern that the sheep are restless. Just ask to rest that never be simple. Instead of show me what's wrong, or show him where he's wrong, as we've heard from other species, we have to be very geologists think about that. Where are these gifts? And whose gifts? Are they? Okay,
Unknown Speaker: Eric Luffy. Eric, before you take a speaking turn, it's 10 o'clock we've been here before hour as well, as I've been free to ask, but mostly there for four hours. And certainly, this is an important topic. And we wouldn't necessarily want to curtail discussion as we consider this manner, and and especially as the motion on the floor. But I think we should probably consider, maybe, let's see how the comments go over the next 10 or 15 minutes. And think if we want to take a vote tonight, which it sounds like we will be assuming that there's enough people, we had 127 members in attendance, we needed 125. So if somebody chosen to leave home, we would find that out as we went through the checkout processes at the moment, you know, but let's let's go for another 10 or 15 minutes if need be on comments. And then we can address what we want to do next.
Unknown Speaker: minute quick, I just wanted to say thanks to Shannon and Glen Lodi and Ryan for clarifying on that. I wasn't done trying to debate the Church of Christ. I was just making sure that have clarity to the congregation and for myself to know what what's the this meeting, you know, the intent of the meeting is and I think it would be helpful for Brett to know too. And so I just want to say thanks for clarifying that, that it is just a matter of practice speaking and not a matter of him believing
Unknown Speaker: next to the document held back. By the way, Erica and I struggled with this topic, I went to her board meetings because I just I just felt like this is a customer prep space. In it has been discussed, you know the topic of what of how someone believes can have an obvious obviously the part of the decision about whether congregations want rather continue serving or any ministry to continue serving. But the same the same guidance was given to me at the board meeting. And it needed to be given very, very clearly to me because of our emotional I was above this topic that that if a person is asked not to serve in a particular way, it doesn't automatically state of their unbelief. We all get asked to serve and then maybe we were asked not to serve at some point. But as the topic of faith and belief could be separate could be a separate topic.
Unknown Speaker: I just wanted to receive what we've heard a few people say that was yes and when we come to this vote right we are not inviting you in anybody that thought that we were not a matter of finding you
Unknown Speaker: and then to me it seemed like at times we got right now I don't know if this was diseased it was our you know we can do this boy we got time I see people's even know whether we still have a quorum and we eat it for board members. No, but
Unknown Speaker: I would make it a lot easier.
Unknown Speaker: Brett would resign or step down. If we can do the vote tonight. We haven't had that meeting. We'll have a quorum there ever Buddy Have you signed those names and put it on section where we discussed ministers and as part of the agenda if we can add it to that we can always add another business I guess that's all I had Yeah, I did I did bring up the topic of this phone and and how close you are to a number of a farm because as you point out, I got seen probably at least by the 10 people who had to leave I'm sure because the Meeting button later later so I would think it would be unlikely that we didn't we would have not lost more than three people from our gathering tonight. Miko. Miko the new voice
Unknown Speaker: my day we are meeting a little too short. For this meeting, I knew that it was about matters of God's kingdom and so on, so forth, neither here nor there, it was particularly about very recently, person. But anyway, this many doubts and fears and George happening on my part. Anyway, I just wanted to hurt you, addressing in relation to what was taking place here, I heard very sober voices and some variation. And I've heard some other voices that were maybe a bit lost or something but that's there. But I was, I would say that I do, I do definitely feel that. And there was touched on that. There used to be, there wouldn't have been two goods, there is one route. And God, it hasn't always been that the kingdom of God has been the kingdom of God. And the Holy Spirit has been the one that taught in that in that group. I believe it's in God's kingdom. And here we have also a kingdom. Now we know that there have already been other rules, even getting some time, until the end of time, there will be yet two groups that when God opens in the heavens law has opened like attachments, tribulations, and knows say those, how we say that they'll be two minute appointment, one will be taken one over that way the C one will be taken over no portfolio. One only take one is believing in one is mine, one belongs over here it is believing in that words. So we don't have to delve into this as it is here in God's kingdom. And we know that the end of the soul is also there to be when and we also made many errors even as children
Unknown Speaker: and say that vote and feeling they have been able to remain do and live perfectly in life. And because of the word of additional way we should, but we found many may time will continue to pop. But we need that that precious gospel. And we can offer that precious as well that we can still believe in forgiveness. Now concerning the spread man, I think that there is that where you see a solid solver that has variable many concerns. And if they felt that red should be maybe stopped that he would not speak here anyway here in this in this currency and not be will not be used. And they get more importantly, I will speak to bracket and listen to what you have heard. There are so many and there has been many who spoke RMS and at the moment, you're on tiny soul and also for the congregation of God. So listen to that and In English suppressing would be you would want to step down and they aside all your sins and believe all things forgiven Jesus name and participant. It seems like you walk in a hog I hadn't known and heard all those things but everything I've heard so far it seems like you have been walking in the fog not with a clean heart Why that's all I have to say. And I just hope that that you can feel interested in the kingdom of God and that the word of God and the Holy Spirit would reveal that plenty more Ryan
Unknown Speaker: there is a voice alright and here is the voice
Unknown Speaker: concern about maybe this ad speaking speaker and I wouldn't have
Unknown Speaker: done I would have the strength to ask myself No, I would not want to and the stumbling block for any of your brothers or sisters and
Unknown Speaker: it's my hope and prayer that God would reveal your presence
Unknown Speaker: only one spirit there's only one brigade vacation is all
Unknown Speaker: are not obedient he will not continue holding it all closed up nor I
Unknown Speaker: and only he can open the door again I hear as they give me any one of the last speaking turn here I got to have a quick visit with Keith about Peace.
Unknown Speaker: keep them handy or vector discussing but I would I would recommend I know there's a motion on the floor. Maybe we have to vote on that first but that we just wait. We have an annual meeting coming up. It was like there has been a lot of people that laughed. I think congregation has had a chance to speak and maybe think about it over a few weeks and I guess my my hope is that It feels to me like the the overwhelming the direction of the congregation is that Brett wins one speak but it would be easiest if you if you were to resign and but not then we do have an annual meeting coming up. Maybe we can. When we do our ratification of speakers we could deal with that
Unknown Speaker: content as well. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Unknown Speaker: keep them handy or vector discussing .. I would, I would recommend – I know there's a motion on the floor. We have an annual meeting coming up. It was like there had been a lot of people who had spoken up.. I think to maybe think about it over a few weeks and
it would be easiest if he would resign.We do have an annual meeting coming up. We could do a ratification of speakers. We could deal with it then.
Tom Johnson: I had the opportunity to visit with Brett this afternoon with much fear and trembling. But we had a short discussion. I told him and encouraged him to come to this meeting and hear what the Holy Spirit has to say. My heart has said amen to most of the speeches tonight. The congregation has spoken and the Holy Spirit has called. Like a few comments have been made and even a comment was made to me today – you don't have to speak. You can get to heaven in the pews listening. When I saw you [Brett] walk in tonight, my heart rejoiced that God called you here to hear what spirit says. I would again – as many others have spoken – to encourage you to speak. For my many fears and doubts, can I hear the gospel?
Keith Hillukka: So, just to clarify. I don't think we need a quorum for a pastor to resign. If the congregation is going to suspend them or remove them, we need a quorum on the congregation.
Andy: Brett, what are your thoughts on that?
Timo Sutinen: I've got one comment on the quorum. You might want to look at the bylaws. Quorum might be that it is the Quorum of the members present instead of the quorum of everyone on the roster..
Andy: I'll leave that for Keith to review that back there. Brett, would you like to speak to this topic right now or?
Brett Rintamaki: I’m a little uncertain how to approach this. I've heard some things tonight that Brett believes this way or that way, which haven't been an accurate picture. I don't know how to address all those. I'm not trying to justify myself. I figure the easiest way to start this is to go through the timeline. from my perspective. Shannon [Simonson] mentioned a meeting in June. We did get together and visit kind of an unrelated matter and then to visit about these topics of today's time. In June, I wasn't at the board meetings. We had company in town.