Rockford Congregation Discussion, November 20, 2016

Who would it be without the forgiveness of sins? Certainly not in God's kingdom. Neither would we have the hope of eternal life. Every child of God has personally experienced the power of the gospel to remove the burden of sin and guilt or doubt and to experience the joy that follows. He or she can readily testify

I believe in the forgiveness of sins. It is the power by which we make our daily journey as believers, and it is available wherever two or three are gathered together. Paul wrote, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

Luther once wrote, there is no greater service that we can do for a fellow man than to preach the gospel to him. Jesus authorized his disciples to go and preach repentance and the forgiveness of sins throughout the world. That is still our mission 2,000 years later, and there are still those who are troubled over their sins and are searching for a gracious God.

spirit leads them to god's kingdom and they joyously receive the forgiveness of sins jesus promised to give the keys of the kingdom of heaven to his disciples and after his resurrection did so by saying receive ye the holy ghost whosoever sins he remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins he retained they are retained

He gave two keys for two specific purposes, both based on love for the undying soul. The Holy Spirit, then, has the keys of the kingdom of heaven. With one of the keys, the penitent are released from their sins, and with the other key, the impenitent and disobedient are bound in their evil condition, so that they would understand and repent.

With all this also the Holy Spirit reveals the love of God. In God's kingdom we are quick to forgive and slow to bind. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The Spirit is in the spoken word and gives life to it. It won't return to God void.

Preaching is an office of the Holy Spirit and the means by which God makes known His will to us. The Spirit comes as a still, small voice, as speaks to our conscience. It is the voice of the Good Shepherd. A flock of God's children knows His voice and will flee from the voice of a strange shepherd. The Good Shepherd leads His sheep and they follow in His footsteps.

When the Holy Spirit governs over the congregation, there will be no conflict between the Bible and the congregation, nor between the written word and the Spirit. The Spirit creates unity of faith and doctrine in the congregation, not different understandings. The Scripture is not of any private interpretation, that is, not left to each individual's interpretation.

We also need to listen for and hear the voice of the Spirit when the congregation faces difficult issues or questions. The Spirit then works to enlighten and preserve souls. The exhortation, he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches is always needed in congregation life and must be taken personally.

We are also wise to avoid foolish and unlearned questions which cause strife. As our opinions cannot enlighten matters better than the word and spirit can, we can unwittingly assist the enemy of souls by communicating hearsay or rumor. Faith teaches that the spirit speaks in the congregation, but we can be slow to recognize his voice. We can relate to Jacob who suddenly awoke from his sleep,

realized where he was, and exclaimed, This is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. The exhortation to hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches was given as a conclusion to the Spirit's testimony of the faith, life, and ministry of seven individual servants of the word, or angels of the church.

Yet it was not made only to the individual servant, but also to his home congregation and to the churches, that is, to all in God's kingdom. Five of them had fallen deeply and were urged to repent. They could not of themselves understand how or where they had fallen, and therefore the Holy Spirit revealed it to the congregation. They had become spiritually dull of hearing. Perhaps it was due to unforgiven sin, weariness, carelessness,

or carnal-mindedness. Only by hearing the voice of the Spirit, which is the voice of the Good Shepherd, and being obedient to it, can the work of the Holy Spirit continue in one's own life. And only then can one remain heaven acceptable. Sin and the threefold enemy work to silence the voice of the Holy Spirit in our consciences. We need to arm ourselves with the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

in order to protect ourselves from the false sermons and lies of the enemy of the soul. We'll sing these verses.

of the spirit is

The face, Lord, of the Spirit, May they ever brightly gleam. Let us wear salvation's helmet, Birth with truth and child with peace.

God bless you. God bless you. God bless you.

How can we discern between the spirit of truth and that of the spirit of error? Apostle John wrote, We are of God. He that knoweth God heareth us. He that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

In other words, the Spirit of God unites one with God, his word, and to the congregation. Apostle Paul described the Holy Spirit by his fruits, of which love, joy, and peace are mentioned. Luther adds that the Spirit calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and preserves it in union with Jesus Christ in the true faith.

On the other hand, the spirit of error scatters the flock and produces the works of the flesh, which include variance, when subgroups form within the congregation, and sedition, when the sense of fellowship and togetherness with the congregation is lost, and then finally heresy, which is choosing to go one's own way. Paul warned, there must be also heresies among you,

that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. The spirit of error works through false prophets, and John instructs, beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Jesus warned, beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing.

but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? False prophets are known by their fruits. A speaker brother was once asked how one could avoid falling into heresy, and he offered the scriptural advice, keep faith and a good conscience, study the Bible,

and pray unceasingly. If this advice were adhered to, the enemy would not be in a foothold in the congregation from which to do his work, and there would be no heresies, and no one would lose faith. We also need to live in childlike obedience to the Gospel and endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

The workplace of the Holy Spirit is the congregation. How fortunate we are to experience a time of visitation of the Spirit in our land and generation. In order to benefit from this work, we must be a partaker of congregation life. The work of the Holy Spirit takes place in so many forms through the means of preaching and teaching.

By them he calls, gathers, and enlightens. The preaching of God's word is the oldest work form and most important one. Sunday school, Bible class, day circle, camp work, diagonal work, publication work, and other areas of work help us in the coming generation to keep faith and a good conscience.

At the gatherings of God's children, we often find that God has prepared a grace table for us in the presence of our enemies to strengthen and nourish us for the battle ahead. Let us not become weary of gathering together as a congregation, nor be tempted to belittle the work of the Spirit by our absence. Let us continue to bring our children and grandchildren to be blessed by Jesus.

Suffer, little children, forbid them not to come unto me, for as such is the kingdom of heaven. The enemy vigorously tries to keep us away from congregation activities, and at the very moment we need them most. He offers many excuses. The exhortation to the severely tried, doubting, and weary Hebrew believers was,

not forsaking the assembling of themselves together as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as we see the day approaching. Together we confess, I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting, amen. I'll turn it over to our moderator.

Thanks, Rick, for this presentation. We can open the floor for any discussion. We have a mic in the back. Plenty of information in this.

In ways that I guess this discussion could go on. We'll leave that up to the congregation.

The first one to speak is usually the hardest thing to speak. Thank you.

Raise your hand again.

So, one of those slides, I just really liked how, or what it said, when it talked about when someone asked a speaker brother, like how to avoid, yeah, falling into heresy. And the advice, keep faith and a good conscience. Study the Bible and pray unceasingly.

Because during this time there's just a lot of talk about different stuff that I've heard and talk about like different sides and different speaker brothers or just a lot of like turmoil and confusion and talk about you know what if there was another heresy and I've heard from a lot of older people that

It would be so... There's just lots of worry about heresy, especially people that have already experienced a heresy. And I just think the offer is such good advice that, you know, instead of thinking about...

choosing sides, like I've heard some people talk about, you know, figuring out which side to be on if they were heresy tapping, but just to look at our own hearts and that the most important thing is to keep childlike faith and if we keep our condenses clean and

trust and pray to God, then keep the Holy Spirit, then we have nothing to fear that God will guide his own. And that's what has really comforted me and helped me keep peace with everything is just knowing that as long as I keep faith in my own heart, then God will guide me and keep me in his kingdom.

I agree 100% with you that our faith is personal and we need to keep our own conscience clear. And the only way of doing that is hearing that gospel of Jesus.

for your comments. We have plenty of time here. If it's up to me, we won't be here very long. We're on the side here. Here. Keep your hand up and you can see.

as you're going through that presentation i had this thought that came actually it's been with me since yesterday we had the midwestern board congregation board meeting here at rockford and the presentation that was given was the role of the congregation board and the responsibility of the board member but in the presentation

there was this portion that stuck with me that says, the congregation asks that those who are the elders would not be silent when they see danger approaching the congregation in the forms of wrong watchings and strife among the children of God. And I guess in seeing this and even to that last comment, how there are

There are questions in the congregation today in God's kingdom. And I would exhort the elders to speak their voice and to help guide God's congregation. Speak to your children. Speak to each other. Speak to us. And teach us the old.

ways, new understandings, but keep us marching in the old paths. So this evening even I would encourage those elders that have seen those questions in the past that maybe are coming to again and have fought those battles to help us fight those battles.

I know it's not easy to take out a large group like this.

You know, especially if we're seeing something different, not quite understanding something correctly, what better place to bring the matters up that we can, if we do understand them incorrectly, that we can be shown the correct way.

Any of the brothers that were at the door meeting, at the back meeting Saturday, did you agree to have a lengthy discussion with her? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

It's on that topic. Is there any comments to that?

Just had a couple thoughts. We had a discussion the evening earlier in the year on the forgiveness of sins. I know this is kind of a natural follow-up to what kind of ties back to that discussion.

And thinking back to the discussion we had yesterday, we've been taught that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So some of these different thoughts that have been coming out in the last couple years in God's kingdom, there is no change in how we believe.

So we pray that those ones that have been expressing these different thoughts would be given the understanding and able to repent of these things. There was a few real disturbing speeches yesterday, and being that this is a meeting that involved all of our congregations in the whole Midwest, and it probably is affecting some and all of God's Zion,

if you're hearing these different thoughts and have questions, it's good to go to ministers, board members, parents, and ask questions. Remember that God's kingdom has not changed, so when these different thoughts are coming up, people are going different places sometimes for advice. The one

The thing that I've heard several times is that, where do we go to seek advice if we have questions? We go to the Bible. It's not, I know, it's not easy to, in our busy lives, always go there, but that's where we want to go for instruction. I think where some of the people are coming into in Providence has said,

They are going and looking for writings that people have done over the years and then trying to find little portions in there that might kind of agree with some of the thoughts they're having. And these are scary thoughts. So I just pray that if anyone's been hearing some of these different discussions, don't get wrapped up just in that little circle that's having these discussions. We don't know where that would lead.

looking for them answers, you know, that's where we should seek them from is from the Bible. That's our basis of our faith. And the answers are all there. There's no one that does understand it all. There never will be. But

room in all of our lives, or should be a room in all of our lives, to study and learn from that. Breath.

Well, this is just to expand a little on some Luther's understanding of John 20, which

It's actually quite lengthy. If a picture's worth a thousand words, maybe a thousand words will give you a picture. But I think as a congregation, a lot of our stuff we say amen to Luther's understandings.

Therefore we must really understand Christ when he says, Whosoever sins he forgives, they are forgiven unto them. Whosoever sins he retains, they are retained. That this does not establish the power of him who speaks, but of those who believe. Now the power of him who speaks and of him who believes are as far apart as heaven and earth.

God has given us the word and the authority to speak, but it does not therefore fall from this, that it must be so done, as Christ also preached and taught the word, and yet not all who heard it believed, and it was not every word done as he spake to her, although it was God's word.

Therefore, Christ's meaning is, he shall have the power to speak the word and to preach the gospel, saying, whosoever believeth has remission of his sins, but whosoever believeth not has no remission of sin. But he hath not the power to create faith, for there is a great difference between planting and giving the growth, as Paul says to the Corinthians, I planted Paul's waters, but God gave me increase.

Hence we have no authority to rule as lords, but to be servants and ministers who shall preach the word, by means of which we incite people to believe. Therefore, if you believe the word, you gain this power. But if you believe not, then what I speak or preach will avail nothing, even though it be God's word. And if you believe not these words, you are not treating me, but God himself, with dishonor and contempt.

Therefore unbelief is nothing but blasphemy, which makes God a liar. For if I say our sins are forgiven you in God's name and you believe it not, it is the same as if you said, who knows whether it be true and whether he be in earnest. By this you charge God and his word with lying. Therefore you better be far from the word if you believe it not. For when a man preaches his word, God would have it as highly esteemed as if he himself had preached it.

then this is the power given by God, which every Christian has, and of which we have already spoken much and often. Hence, this is enough for the present. This guy next to me has got a lot of good advice. And as far as just my own ramblings or understandings as far as the forgiveness of sins, I'll

If I ask any of my boys here to have my sins forgiven, I'm 100% positive they'll speak the sentence that I want to hear. Whether or not if I...

am asking in earnest or in jest, they'll still speak the words. If I'm speaking, if I'm asking in earnest, that sin will be taken care of. But if I'm asking in jest, the gospel will still be preached, but the forgiveness will be withheld. That's all I understand. I just try to believe like

Like my boys. It's like a giant.

That is right, we want to believe like a child. That's scriptural. Jesus has said that. When the adults come as we get older, start thinking with our own mind.

not believing, believing like a child. I guess when I think of that, I think of back in teaching the younger grades of Sunday school that up to a certain age, they believe in Santa Claus. That's a good example of believing like a child.

I mean, they truly believe that Santa Claus exists, they truly believe that God exists, and Jesus died for our sins. That's where that forgiveness of sins comes in, that we're so doubt-filled.

That we need that reassurance of that gospel over and over. We believe in that in our own heart because no one can believe for us. We can't believe for anyone else.

Any further comments? The young lady, at least I'm assuming she's a young lady who

requested that this slide be put up here. I was 30 years old when that last heresy departed from God's kingdom. And in 1972, that year that was leading up to that heresy, there was much discussion

of various portions of God's word and how we believed and there was much disagreement on how we believed. For instance, one of the discussion points was on Peter's denial

And those who departed in that heresy said that of Peter's denial, where he denied three times that he knew the Lord Jesus Christ, and even cursed the third time when he made that denial, that Peter remained in faith and that those were just poor and weak words.

Whereas Jesus says himself that he who denies me before men, him will I deny before my Father which is in heaven.

And so there was that as one of the points of doctrine, did Peter lose his faith or did he not lose his faith? And we, as we have heard already this evening, that we need to go to the Bible and see what the Bible says about those matters.

This lady, or this young lady, she talked about this keep faith and good conscience. And I remember that my father, I asked my father, I don't know much about the Bible. What can I do? How do I know who is right and who is wrong? And that's the same answer that he gave me. He said, keep faith and a good conscience.

and God will lead you on the right path. And so, this statement, this keep faith in a good conscience, seems to be a statement that's being attacked now in the kingdom of God. And the, some are saying that

If I can believe strongly enough, I do not need to take care of those matters of faith. And I, you know, from a child, this is what I have understood, that when we keep faith and a good conscience, that we want to put away sins as they be set.

Talk about those things and put them away in the blood of the Lamb. And in that way we keep faith and good conscience. And in that portion of Revelations where John saw that throng that no man could number, it says that these are they who wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb. And therefore they were accepted.

And so we do want to keep faith and good conscience and that allows us to take later steps on the journey than if we let sin pile up on our conscience and way of stuff. But this other study of the Bible and pray unceasingly is good advice. I remember in those days that those Bibles that

came out and many of you older brothers and sisters who are here remember those days how even in our discussions those Bibles came out and we looked at God's word to find out and see what does God's word say about these things. And that's good. It needs to be according to scripture. We believe according to scripture.

We're not looking for anything new. We want to seek those old paths that we have learned since we were young. And keep faith and a good conscience. And God will lead us in the right path.

I just feel in my heart how I am praying that this meeting would help me and all of us to really understand what the questions are. I really don't understand what the questions are.

It was a terrible experience to live through that last heresy. And I had a shock of my life because I felt all the time that my brothers and sisters and I was believing, were believing all the same.

It came out. There were two different spirits battling. And about half of my dear, dear, dear brothers and sisters left. They went in the heresy. And I couldn't understand it. I could not understand it. But I have to say, like Ron said,

The Bibles did come out. It seemed all we talked about was what's happening? What is really going on? But it became clearer, like Ron brought out about Peter's denial.

It seems so clear to believers that how could you possibly live as a believer and say, I do not know that man who is Jesus Christ and I am not part of his and cursed at him

How could anybody be confused on that? He was still believing when he said all this. This is in the Bible. So we can't fight that. Then came other spiritual matters, like the mother can err. What help would we have?

if our mother, spiritual mother, could err. There were, can you think of other doctrinal errors that came very clear? You were young, but you were old. We've discussed them many times. My memory is getting poor, but the Bible,

So, but right now, I have to say, I have not talked to anybody who I'm disagreeing with. And I don't really know what is that.

And shared doctrinal matters are in battle right now. And I don't know what they are. I would hope that could be made more clear of what her battle is.

Yeah, well, that's a good question. So I ask, what is this battle that we have? And I think that we're still, many of us, maybe all of us, have that kind of question, that exactly what is the root or what is the situation at hand.

Paul mentioned yesterday when we discussed at the MBMAG meeting, there were differences, different understandings. So it's real. It's so that we are facing those kinds of questions now. The question we discussed yesterday, and I'm not a theologian. I don't have deep doctrinal understanding on matters

So I don't know if I would even have reason to speak to it because others could explain it much more clearly. But I think in fairness for the meeting, because the question was made or referenced that there was this kind of idea yesterday that we discussed for a long time that, you know, when we call into God's kingdom or as a child we grow in grace,

we have a robe of righteousness. And that we read and we understand from scriptures that it's God's gift. And we think of the brother that denied faith, the prodigal son. When he returned to his father's house, the servants dressed him with that robe, and we speak of that robe of righteousness that he was given.

So, the question that was discussed is whether or not this robe can ever become stained by sin. Someone said that when I have this robe of righteousness and I believe, then

to this role. That it's simply that I believe and my faith protects me and I'm able to travel as a free, grace child of God. But I spoke yesterday

part of Revelations where it speaks about that throng of saints who had that robe and those robes were washed in the blood of the Lamb. So from my childhood, I've experienced the temptations of sin. And I've experienced how my garment of righteousness

because of sin. I thought of those words of the Apostle John when he, in his first epistle, he says that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

And his word is not in us. So then he continues in that second chapter. My little children, these things I write unto you that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And he is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only, but for the sins of the whole.

So I have felt in my life that I've needed, from the time I, my earliest childhood memories, I remember the temptation of sin. And I've also experienced what happens when I fall into sin and my conscience becomes troubled and burdened. The only way I've been able

such a privilege in my life that God has given me those believing escorts that I can go to, and it didn't end in my childhood, but I needed to in some ways even say shamingly that today, to this day, I needed to go and speak of those matters of conscience, not once or twice, but many times. And in this way, I've been able to endeavor in faith until this day.

I don't know any other way to go. And yesterday at the meeting, it was implied that you need more faith, that stronger faith will allow you to believe in the mirror work of Christ. Well, it's a strange doctrine to me. It's not the one which I've heard from the time I was a young boy.

if we start talking about this matter of confession because confession can become our savior as well. We feel like we have to confess and confess and confess and never find peace because if we search so deeply into our hearts, we'll find nothing but corruption. But Luther says that we would confess those faults and those sins which trouble and burden our conscience.

but we would say that we are guilty of all manner of sin. So it just, it feels like, in our discussion yesterday, that there were these two different understandings. One, that we are freed from all sin because of the merit work of Christ, and I don't disagree with this, but I also feel that it's important that we endeavor

and put away sin and endeavor by faith, taking care of that, as this slide says here, that we would keep faith and good conscience.

So these are the kinds of discussions that are out there now, and they're not easy discussions. Many times they go very deep in theology. But I don't know, it just feels like, isn't it so important that we as children of God believe so simply that when sin comes, we speak it?

and continue to tread on as a child of God and his kingdom. I don't question the merit work of Christ. I don't question God's wisdom and power. But too often I question my own strength and my own ability and my own, even my own lackings and my own littleness in faith that why even make it happen? I don't know, maybe others are so much stronger

that these are unbelief. Well, I suppose doubts are unbelief, but is there a child of God who doesn't doubt? Doubts are sin like any other sin, and we speak of them. We put them away and believe. So, I don't know, we become so theological or theoretical about these things, but

isn't it just enough that we would simply believe as a child, but sin away, and in this way, we endeavor to accept? So, these are the kinds of discussions we've been having, and they're not easy discussions. I've thought many times in recent days of what it will be like

live and dwell in a peaceful, resting place. And most of all, there, my sin will be no longer remembered. I will be given that new heavenly body. But I still endeavor, and we all need to endeavor, but

I endeavor to travel with my own doubts and my own fears and my own sinfulness. And I ask you this evening, can I still believe my sins in God's name? Dear brothers and sisters,

In 1 Corinthians, Paul writes, Brethren, be not children in understanding. Howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. So,

Children are our example in many things, in many ways. But Paul says, for a reason, be not children in understanding.

So, I think we cannot say that we just believe like children. There is a difference. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Paul says, in understanding, be not children. God wants us to understand

Paul says in the other places, when I grew up, I gave up childish things. When I was a child, I thought like a child, I spoke like a child. When I grew up, I gave up that. So it is good that as Jeremy asked the elders to speak, they have experience.

battles and joys and sorrows to learn one another's experience. And so there is another Bible portion that I wanted to share with you. There is this keep faith and a good conscience.

For some reason, Paul saw it important to say it again in different words in the same book, 1 Timothy 3, 9. And he says, holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. Faith is a mystery. And we...

We say we're not theologians. I guess that's proper to say. But let us not get mixed up with unclear message and deep theology. Unclear message is not deep theology. It's an unclear message. God's grace order is simple. It's not unclear. It's not deep.

We have heard it very clearly here. Put sin away. Believe our sins forgiven. Study the Bible and pray on Sisyphean. Is it pretty clear? Put sin away. Sin, unforgiven sin, always leads into the world. It's dangerous. It's like poison. And we all fall into sin.

Of course, that's what we are. But we cannot surrender to that. We cannot say that because we are sinners, we sin. The Bible exhorts us to put sin away. And like Derek said, there's another ditch which we should avoid as well. It's not our Savior. But if God...

shows or reminds of something that troubles our conscience. We have freedom to use this great gift of confession. And it's not in our doing, but it's in God's forgiveness. God has given this gift for us, and we are free to use it.

I guess there would be much else that was taken away, so the next one will continue.

The only thing that I have heard regarding this confusion is that some have the feeling, the understanding that you can believe your sins forgiven through communion.

I have always felt that communion is God's gift to us to strengthen our faith. And I've never thought of it as a means of forgiveness. So if anybody has

an answer to this. I'd like to hear it. I want to just say that I'm almost 90 years old and that takes me back into the time

I'm there, and I was no child even anymore. But it was definitely an undercurrent in the church at the time, and it didn't start just in a week or month or a year. It was there for a long time, and you could feel it at certain times, and you could... It was a very sad thing.

Well, I guess us that are older, we remember that as it took place, and I hope we never see anything like that again. I just have a couple thoughts, and one's in my mind. When Robert talked about

a child forgiving and if you can accept it or not accept it. My thought is that a child, of course, will forgive if they're asked. They don't know what to think about anything else.

But as you get older, you don't think of everything as you do as a child. And I just, to use the forgiveness of sins and just forgive somebody, even if you know that they don't understand

what they're being, you know, what is even being forgiven. And if they don't understand it in the right way, yet you just forgive. It just seems like that would be using this precious gift that we have in a way that, I don't know how to explain it, but that to keep it as

precious gift and what it is used for. And to just forgive somebody without knowing if they even, you know, want to have it or if they don't want to have it. It just doesn't sound right to me anyway. But, you know, because we can't just

forget like a child does, because of course, they're gonna forget. But we have a little more things to think about as we're older. And then, what was my other thought? Oh, and Eric was talking about the discussion that they had about forgiveness.

that kind of scares me when people think that you can just believe all your sins forgiven just by hearing the gospel somewhere, you know, in a general way, because that's how the world, you know, the world doesn't believe in forgiving or hearing the gospel, but they just believe in a general sense that God died for our sins and so,

We're saved. And that's almost like, that's how it feels like some people are thinking. But if you have something on your conscience that bothers you, how can you forget about it without talking about it and having it forgiven? Because when you have it forgiven, it's like a huge weight off your shoulders. And to not...

ever talk about something that's bothering you. It would just be like always carrying that weight around. And I always learned this as a child that what sins are you to confess? Those which you feel in your heart and bother your conscience. That's just how I lived. I was hoping Cheryl understood that way.

That's the name of sins. I'm sure most all of you have heard the forgiveness of sins preached. And if you have nothing on your conscience, it's music. It's heavenly music. And you can truly believe it.

Only you and God know if you still have this unforgiving sin. I know because I've tried and tried to forget that little thing, just a matter of yesterday.

I had to ask forgiveness for this thing that I knew that had been weighing on me for a long, long time. But, you know, there is a difference. Whatever you can truly believe, forgiven, it is forgiven. This is my understanding. But God is very patient and loving that

He still keeps reminding us, me, of why is this thing always bothering you? Why is it always coming back? Why don't you just take care of it? I prayed that I would have strength to, and I did. And just like that, it's gone. So there is such power in the blood.

Whatever you can believe forgiven, it is forgiven. That's my opinion. I was reading a title up there, The Spirit of Truth and The Spirit of Error. That could almost be a title of what you've just been talking about.

than a lot of things talked about tonight, and I don't mean to take up a lot of time, but just some thoughts that came to my mind, thought I would share them. I don't, I hope our dear brother Robert doesn't think that this is a remodel to what he said about the children.

believe and wish my children would do the same thing as he says his children would do for him. But that's the one thing that seems like it comes into the equation when we take examples from our own lives that they're not scripture. In fact, we can find examples that refute our examples.

That's why it's so important that we read scripture and find our answers from there. And the reason why I say it this way is because at one of the discussions I was at in Finland, they brought up an example that was exactly this way, but it was said in this way that this one father of a family, they don't even know what, or didn't explain what that father had done to offend his children.

And perhaps that's not even the point, it's just the example. Whatever this father had done to offend his children, he had done over and over again. And over and over again he would ask his children to bless him, and they blessed him. Many, many, many, many times. And then one time they didn't.

And it finally struck that father to understand that he was as if using them to cover his sin and he received grace to put it away and the offenses stopped. I think it's actually a commentary on God's faithfulness and patience that was found in children.

Perhaps I or perhaps Robert have never reached that point where the children's faithfulness and patience has ended along with God's. We pray that never happens. Another comment I had was about communion. I've had lots of conversations about this and I would say that the

questions are so fine and one of the brothers i spoke to just the other day even we talked about it and we came to this conclusion that the envy of souls is is working in such fine manners in our day trying to divide us in ways that there's no reason to to divide us

If I understand the topic of this communion, what the question is, almost in all parts it seems like there's agreement. When we read God's word, they're faithful to God's word, those who have

have a different understanding. And they, for instance, know that there's not, it's not a matter of sanctification, that a man in unbelief cannot become a believer through communion. Scriptures are so clear on that.

that if you partake of communion and not be a believer it's it's you eat and drink unto your own damnation that's what god's word says so it's not forgiveness to the unbeliever so the question becomes why is it then forgiveness for a believer because you have to almost come to the conclusion that the believers have a

have a way of forgiveness that the unbelievers don't have, a special type of forgiveness. And I've never understood that we are any different than the unbeliever. God forgives us just the same way as he does them. And the question actually seems like it derives from perhaps Luther.

When you read lots of Luther's works, he speaks about communion and he may use those words even about forgiveness and communion. But then I would ask you to think about it in this sense that why then in Lutheran communion services there's general confession by the congregation and a message of absolution?

It's a forgiveness and it's before the communion. It wouldn't be necessary. But it's so that those who do not, who have sin on their hearts or unbelievers could believe before they go to communion. It's not forgiveness in the eating and the drinking, but there is forgiveness in communion when you take it into its whole context of the communion rites. It's preached in the communion rites that your sins are forgiven.

in Jesus' name and blood. So in that sense, there is forgiveness, but I don't understand why there needs to be an idea that there's forgiveness in eating and drinking of the bread and the wine. It doesn't quite make sense. Then I guess when you look at Jesus' words, he says something to this effect that communion is a

A meal of remembrance. Remembering that in the blood and the, or the wine and the bread, we remember how he suffered and died for our sins. He shed his blood and gave his body for remission of sins. That's what we were remembering when we were there. We're remembering that he did that and that forgiveness that we have heard preached is true.

The last thing I wanted to speak about is the matter of righteousness. When I was asked to serve as a servant, I was shown a part of scriptures and it's always stuck with me because it places me in the true context of what has been asked of me in the congregation. And it's

In the third chapter of Ezekiel, it says, son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel. And then it explains what as a watchman we're supposed to do. So it says, God says unto the wicked, this is what God wants to say unto the wicked, thou shalt surely die.

And then if I as a servant do not tell them, give them warning that they will die, they still will die, but their blood will be on my hands. Again he says, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity,

and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die, because thou hast not given him warning. He shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered, but his blood will I require at thy hand. So the righteousness that we have can be taken away by committing sin.

But as believers, if we don't tell them their sin and they die, their blood will be the last of our hand. But if we warn the righteous man that they don't sin, and then they do not sin, they will live.

It's funny that we're delivering the soul of a righteous man. That's what we do over and over again in the gospel. We're helping each other along the way of faith. And we only do this because it has been asked of us. I don't have any special want to say anything that would offend someone.

But if it's something that's found in God's word, there's nothing that I can refute. Why should I be asked to not say that if it's in God's word that I not warn someone? So just because we have that robe of righteousness,

We can't lose that. It clearly says that here in God's word. And that's why it's important that we use, as the apostle tells us, the whole word of God for rebuke and instruction and so on and so forth.

Yeah, I'm no philosopher, but we also need to live in childlike obedience to the gospel and endeavor. And it's a Ephesians book. It seems like every time I turn around, I hear of another person losing faith. I just heard one

Yesterday, as a matter of fact, I don't know when he lost it, but from my understanding, he lost it because he's got too much activity between his ears trying to decipher the ins and outs of believing rather than just simply believing like a child. It just blows my mind that we even have to discredit childlike faith.

Maybe I'm way out in the woods. Somebody's going to have to clear me in. But for me, to live like a child is the simplest and the easiest. And I know I can't rattle off scripture verses, but I'd be pretty confident that there's plenty of portions of the Bible that instruct you to live like a child.

You start living like an adult and then you get too much activity between years and then you get in trouble. I don't, I guess that's my thoughts on that. Maybe someone could correct me if I'm wrong. Brett.

Possibly who Robert was talking about was our son [name omitted]. And his faith wasn't taken away because of what was between his ears, too much thinking. His faith was lost because of sin. And sin is always what, unforgiven sin is always what leads us away from God's kingdom.

If there's unforgiven sin, then Satan knows our weaknesses. And definitely, that's one of his weaknesses. A thinker. But there's been many thinkers in God's kingdom that have received the rest of the righteous. And there are many thinkers still in God's kingdom. And it's not thinking that takes away our faith in sin.

And we just ask for all of your prayers for him and our unholy children and all the prodigals that God would give grace for them too. And we can't hear you. We all say it's for you. We all say it's for you.

Is there one up there? Okay, I was just listening to what Rick said about, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a stop to forgiving somebody. And I've never heard that in my life before. So I pulled up a verse here that says, Then Peter, this is from Matthew 18, 21.

Then came Peter to him and said, Lord, how oft shall I forgive my brother if he has sinned against me? And is it seven times seven? Jesus saith unto him, I say unto thee, not seven times seven, but until seventy times seven. And then what I understood from this is further on it says something that even if that's not enough, it would continue. So I've just never heard

From what Robert said, it seemed like maybe he shouldn't think like that. To me, I thought that was beautiful. And then a correction to, actually, there's a man on it. Maybe my son understood that.

I have a few thoughts here so I'll try and sort them all in and hopefully I'm able to get them across as I understand them. I also, first of all, I'm a little bit alarmed if I understood a couple of the comments that maybe as we grow older that we shouldn't have a childlike faith because when we first heard of the issues

In faith, Nate and I hold out our Bible. That, to be honest, it was like when there's a baptism, scurrying around trying to find it from after we moved it in a tote somewhere, and now it's on our counter, and I feel very frequently I'm going to that Bible to try and find something that I'm wondering about. That being said, I have to say that when I...

For example, when this forgiveness thing came up, that there are times that you wouldn't forgive, when I was reading and trying to understand that, the more I read, the more I was filled with doubts. The beginning of the text, I think it's 1 Samuel, chapter 15 maybe,

Those first paragraphs in there are very scary and alarming, and it's hard to comprehend. Why would God instruct that to slay women and sucklings and destroy the whole city? And when I was talking with Nate about it, we had to...

We had to agree that, we had to go back to our childlike faith and not try to analyze that too much because it just brought more doubt. So I hope that I can say that, I hope it's okay for me to say that I want to have a childlike faith.

I had to have, I just told someone yesterday, I have to say I have an infant like me. Anyways, okay, so then I had another comment. It sounds like this meeting yesterday when it said that there's disturbing speeches. I have been in a situation this summer where I asked a question

after hearing something in a sermon that was alarming to me, and I was treated so horribly. I think if our instructions from God are to be each other's escorts and to be our brother's keeper, it's my hope and prayer that if there were speeches yesterday that were alarming, that you brothers that were there would contact those individuals

whether it's a phone call or a visit or whatever, and try to go to them in Christian love and try to help them. Because I know that these issues have caused lots of division among friends and family, and if someone asks a question, then they're labeled that they're maybe not believing right. It makes me really uncomfortable because

That's not how I've understood that we're to be. I think that we can all say we want to help each other get to heaven, and none of us is so good. I think it's safe to say forever that none of us are so good that we could get there through our own merits and works. When I heard about this robe of righteousness, I feel like I've been...

Thinking about it all day and had multiple conversations, and I'm wondering The comment that was made that we don't have to have our sins forgiven. I'm wondering if that could have been meant that Christ already died for us so we could have our sins forgiven and so

Could that person have been trying to say that? Because if every time you sin, your garment is blemished. One person said today there was, I can't remember the name, was it Joseph that was sold into slavery for I don't know how many years, but he had to, I'm assuming had to

believed so strongly every day that his sins were forgiven because he didn't have a believer to reassure him that they were forgiven, but he knew that Christ already died for his sins. I was looking at this Psalm number 289. It's too long for me to read it, but if you read through it, it does talk about a pure robe and no blemish can be found.

I don't know if, so when I read that and heard about some of the comments yesterday, I'm wondering if it's just a misunderstanding or the way the speech was made that it was misunderstood. I'm not really sure.

Anyway, I do want to be a believer. I want to be in the middle of the flock. And if someone thinks that I'm worrying too much or asking too many questions, I want to get to heaven. And I don't want to be labeled that I'm not believing right or whatever. I feel like it's been comforting to come to the discussions in the different congregations and hear what the Word of God has to say.

Can I also hear the gospel? I also like these discussions.

One of the bad parts of discussions is that you can never speak the entire thought that you want unless you want to speak for hours and hours. And because of the question of the sister,

I want to say it this way, that I also thought that Robert's example was beautiful. I hope my children do the same. My only point by that was saying that if God closes their mouth, it doesn't matter if they want to preach it. I'm sure those children must have wanted to. I can't imagine it otherwise. But then as thinking about

That is what we believe. But yet, there are things that we need to believe in the truth. And so we need to childlikely believe the truth. So when you think about things, as the Bible says about, you know, as Yoga brought about on top of thinking as an adult, it seems to me that it means this, that...

We believe the truth. And we can also believe that childlikely. But if we have discussions about matters of faith, it's not that we can just forget the whole discussion and say that we're just going to believe childlikely. We want to follow after the Lord Jesus with childlike faith. I'm sure we all agree with that. But if we begin to follow a different shepherd and just say it's childlike faith, then it's not saving faith.

I don't know if I need myself anything. That's how I am. I was born into a Christian life.

and some of the things that had been discussed tonight, we thought we had childlike faith. We meant it to him. That did not save us. It wasn't until years later, when I was 25 years old, before I met my first Christian family,

But the thing that's... When we talk about... Oh, I'm getting mixed up. But... To think that...

You can just say that you've been converted into a Christian faith and don't need to hear this. Your sins forgiven. That's not according to scripture. And even the talk about some of these things like Peter's denial. I know the last Pharisee.

I even had someone that went into heresy that called me and asked me what I thought about Peter's denial. I said, if he denied Christ, how could he be in faith? And they said, well, we think he just lied.

And I said, well, what's so good about lying? Ananias and Sapphira, what happened to them? So, the thing is we have to believe that the only way that I became a Christian wasn't by going to communion. It wasn't

thinking I was a childhood, that I had childhood faith, and I thought I did, but that didn't make me a Christian. It's only when we believe that our, have our sins forgiven, and the only ones that can forgive us our sins are those that have the Holy Spirit.

So I guess that's it.

So, I don't have a lot of knowledge of the Bible, but I just want to relay a personal experience. I repented from the heresy a couple years ago, a little more than a couple years ago, but I just wanted to say to those who don't think you can believe like a child, because when I received the grace of repentance,

My faith was exactly like a child, and I was on cloud nine, and I was very, all of my sins were just washed away, and I just felt like I could believe like a child. I had no worries, no concerns. And then, as I continued to believe, of course, that's when your mind gets in the way, and you know, my adulthood type mind came back into,

And I just had all these thoughts and concerns and, you know, what's my family going to think? And, you know, am I going to be accepted? And all those things that when you're a child, you don't think of those things. So I just wanted to say that.

And one thing that really bothers me, too, is that I believe that God is the judge into whether you have your sins forgiven or not, and that we can really forgive. And when I had my sins forgiven, when I repented, I didn't even know what to ask, because I didn't know that believers believe their sins forgiven also. But in the heresy, we do as well.

And so I was actually offered the grace of repentance, and I was offered to have my sins forgiven, and I said yes. So I was just going to say that God knows whether or not you have sins that need to be forgiven. I don't think that anyone is the judge of that, that if you believe that your faith is so strong,

that you can judge who needs to have their sins forgiven or who doesn't, I don't believe that that's having the true spirit because I think that we all feel weak in our faith and that our faith is very small as believers. So I think that we all just need to believe together and continue to talk about matters of faith because it's very important.

The heresy was a terrible time and it tore many families apart. Still, a lot of my relatives, in fact, have half their family believing or half not, or one person in the family believing and the rest not. It's a very hard thing.

So I just think that even in families to continue to talk about these matters and of course discussions like this are very important but to get matters taken care of and just keep a clean conscience because that's how we believe. But that's all I have to say.

Is there somebody over on this side? First, I just wanted to comment to our sister who made mention of the meeting yesterday.

So the brothers and sisters wouldn't have any doubts about this, at least this is how the matter seemed to me. As the concern over speeches wasn't a misunderstanding, but rather the spirit didn't answer. It was a different understanding that was being propounded.

And also this, that I certainly don't feel anyone was treated harshly, but through speech after speech of brothers and sisters who were there, who took turns to speak during our spiritual discussion, was nothing but love, speaking how they believed, how the matters seemed to them, and how they had been taught. And in this way,

a loving discussion to show the way, and I believe God spoke to all of us there through His Holy Spirit, enlightening the way in the discussion. And in that way, although leading with sorrow and concerns, because

Because there wasn't a feeling of full unitedness yet. On the other hand, being joyful that God was still teaching, guiding, and speaking to us love through His Spirit in our escorts on the journey. And then I wanted to just comment on one part that

presentation this evening that is prepared again for our ministers and board members meeting at summer services that we're visiting about tonight that reminded me of was in the very beginning or early part of it that referred to first Corinthians chapter 12 and

and said how God has set some, and he uses imperfect but pardoned sinners to do his work. And I was thinking back to that particular portion of God's word. I'll try to pull that chapter up here.

The latter portion of 1 Corinthians 12 speaks of different members in one body. And in verse 12 here, the Apostle Paul has written, for as the body is one and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

And as the verses continue, here it is written how the body is one, but there are many members, and how the members of the body have need for each other, and no member can say to another that they have no need.

Continues yet to say that they are tempered together and that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another. When one member suffers, the other members suffer with it. Now you're the body of Christ and members in particular.

And after this writing, presentation by Paul, then continues to say, and God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirty teachers, after that miracles and gifts of healing, helps, government, diversities of tongues.

Are all apostles, are all prophets, are all teachers, are all workers of miracles, have all the gifts of healing, do all speak with tongues, do all interpret, but covet earnestly the best gifts and yet show it?

And the reason I thought to comment on this is that also in the course of discussions in recent times, it feels like there's been a lot of, a lot of criticism, accusation against our speakers and our elders, our board members.

in the work of the congregation. And this goes to how do we understand those who have been called to serve in these ways in God's kingdom. Yesterday, as we heard from our brother earlier, the opening presentation, our brother Jer mentioned how the topic was the role and responsibility

board members and we could add to that speakers as well that were present. And it was such a loving presentation about how none who served in those ways have asked or campaigned for those

duties, but yet they have been called by God through his congregation and spirit to serve. And this way it was good to hear another time encouragement to serve with the gifts that God has given. But so much

in the discussion presentation was this thought how we serve humbly and not with our own agenda, but rather to serve with knowing where, as the presentation said, we're sinful and slow and faulty as well, understanding, but yet

wishing to be obedient unto those worlds into which we have been called. And that then when there's been this exhortation and this reminder, as we've even heard in our services in recent times, my brother referred to this a moment ago when Rick, when he was called to serve,

about Watchmen on the Walls of Zion, the duty to speak when danger seems to be approaching, that it doesn't mean that we are saying that we elevate those who serve and speak in

obedience to the call they've been given. It doesn't mean we aren't a level-headed flock. It simply means that God has given gifts and he has appointed those to serve his congregation, his kingdom, with gifts in different ways. And so we all, it's true, as children of God, have a place of watching

place of watching our own faith life, our loved ones, we are all our brother's keeper.

But also there are those, as here it said, God hath set in the church as apostles and prophets, teachers, miracles, those with special gifts of healing, and helps, and governments, and bursaries of tongues. But he goes to say, are all apostles, are all prophets, are all teachers, and so on? No, none, no one has all the gifts

And that's why this portion is such a beautiful reminder, because we're one body and we need each other. We only see in part, we only have gifts in part, and yet the whole body of Christ is here. God's kingdom, God's congregation, the pillar and ground of truth. And so,

Of course, those who serve in these roles, we've placed them in our congregations. Believing God has guided those decisions through the Spirit. We don't follow man. We don't follow them as spirits.

serving here, but yet we are respectful of the office and with love hear those whom God has given gifts and called to serve. I ask for my own heart feeling sinful and

having so many doubts and worries in these times that they have been much more sensitive. So we have a new stage. We've got a good hand, Chuck. And Nathan in the back. Oh.

First, I want to ask if I can have my seat. I thought I would comment some about keeping clean conscience and specifically confession. For me, and as I'm sure for many of you, I've experienced both sides of the ditch on that.

And in particular, I experienced a time, a long time, when I did not use confession. And I've often thought now, thinking back to then, how I struggled during those times to understand confession and what it was. And in particular,

there was a term that I could not understand. And that was when I heard other believers talk about confession as being a grace privilege. When confession was something that was foreign to me, and I did not use it, I could not understand, what does this grace, what does it mean, a grace privilege?

being a gift, it was an obstacle, a demand, a barrier. And sometimes I tried to understand it and it was, it was confusing and received no comfort from when I would hear others speak of what a gift it was.

But then I've also been able to experience when I have been given the strength to take care of matters and to free specific matters on my conscience from me through confession. Matters that my faith, that I was simply not able to believe were given except for

that I would speak specifically of those, and then I could be free from them. And then, one confession, not because I was a good confessor, not because I was able to confess all my sins, but because

I was able to free my conscience of all those matters that I had been carrying. Then I understood what this is. What it means that this is a grace privilege. What it means that confession is a gift. For me, it is that kind of a gift

that I do not want to have to try to keep faith without. It is so important for me because it's difficult for all of us, and for all, I'll just say for me, it's difficult for me to believe when there's sin piled up there. And not only that, but when there's sin piled up, more sin comes.

And it builds and builds. And for me, I don't even need to question whether I have to confess or I should. But simply, it comes down to that I can confess. I can be free. And all of my doubts from before and all my reasons to not confess, whether it's

my own pride that would want to hide the shame of sin or the doubts of whether my brothers and sisters in faith would still receive me as a believer have all disappeared. And then even though it's a gift that I've had to, I always have to

bring my unrepentant flesh to. Still, God has been able to strengthen me, strengthen my footsteps to confession by encouraging me, knowing that this is a place where I can receive forgiveness and assurance that that specific matter, those things are also for

This introduction was very heartwarming. My spirit said, Amen to it all. And I thought, wow, we have a good God.

I think I want to talk about the manner of childlike faith. I don't think there's anyone here who has questions that we should have childlike faith.

I don't understand exactly what Paul meant in those two places that he wrote about in thinking like men, but simply a simple, my simple mind would just understand it this way, that when we're older, we are in this

Even in understanding scriptures, we don't put little children up there at the pulpit to speak or to be Sunday school teachers. But God gives gifts to us as we get older to serve in whatever way He sees fit. I don't think at all that we

We need to grow in our faith and be a man in faith and have strong faith. I'd love to, but I can't. And Jesus says that if we had faith of a mustard seed, we could move mountains, pick up a mountain, put it into the ocean, whatever we wanted to do, if we had faith of a mustard seed, the smallest of seeds.

So there's no question about how much faith we have. And that doesn't grow as we get older. It doesn't get large. But I so much agree with Brother Chuck.

And man, it struggles to go. There's a battle that rages within me. But every time, God gives me the strength to confess. I have experienced the same thing. Free from sin. All gone.

I think we need to encourage each other to come and speak of your matters to me freely. Come anytime. Please. The invitation is there. Come. Do not be shameful. Believe me. I have sinned enough that there is no shocking sin in this world to me. Nor is there, it is written that way also in Scripture

No new sin under the sun. It doesn't give us the license to go freely sin, but there is this invitation. Come. Put sin away. Because if we don't put sin away, our faith will eventually leave us. And the Holy Spirit will leave us. This is so important that we

we he that had ears to hear let him hear what the spirit said unto the churches if we don't have ears to hear and we don't listen and take it to heart this is this good instruction that god has given us here tonight and oh i feel for such a woman who lives in pain distressing

always questioning God's kingdom. It's important to ask a question if you'll have ears to hear. So good that we can freely discuss as we have tonight. It's been good for me to be here. I also have need of this assurance that my sins are forgiven. Can I blame my sins and God's forgiveness?

Raise your hand.

I guess I just had a question on this. I was at the meeting yesterday, but it sounded like it was two spirits. So I guess my question was, what did the wrecked spirit say and what did the wrong spirit say, if that's okay to discuss? I guess I'd like to learn from that, but maybe the better order might be that

Has anyone talked to these people directly to find out exactly what they meant? Was there just a misunderstanding there? Before now everybody leaves this meeting and goes home and talks about the two spirits.

I don't know, I guess it is, I wonder if that's a good way to leave this meeting, have everybody go home, saying there were two spirits at the meeting yesterday, without knowing for sure that that was the case. I would think at least we would want to talk to those individuals one-on-one and say, have I understood you correctly on this matter? But I have had many different questions and doubts in the last year or so, even as long as I can believe these sins forgiven.

First, I just wanted to reassure everyone that the majority of the speeches that were given yesterday, my heart's saying Amen to them.

And the ones that have the different thoughts, we want to keep them in our prayers and hope that they're able to receive proper understanding. And there has been

Most of you are probably aware there's been some meetings going on for over a year with some of these situations. So this isn't something that just came up in the meeting yesterday. And they're being handled with as much love and care as many brothers have already been talking with them in many different situations. So let's just pray that they can be given the understanding. And it was...

Some of the others can probably specify exactly what those differences were, but it has already been brought out tonight. Eric mentioned it quite clearly with some of their thoughts. It's not just in this situation, because there is times where all of us can try to put a point across and we make mistakes, but we're able to have that forgiven.

But this isn't the case in this situation, so let's pray that they're given understanding and aren't just taking these ideas they have and spreading them all around God's kingdom. That's one of the big concerns and why there's been meetings going on with these individuals. They also need to have my sense of people.

Sorry, I just wanted to ask if it's okay if we're supposed to, if we can know this. I've had a lot of confusion myself hearing, I've heard for years that some ministers are making lists of people who are proud or different things.

I don't know if I kind of agree with her at this time, but it'd be nice to know, to not leave like that, where there's this idea of these two spirits. Those kinds of things are really difficult to hear. And I did want to also say that, for example, of the children, that Luther did say that, you know,

Whoever wants to be a great theologian needs to be around children because they're the greatest theologians. And I kind of think that that's true. I think there's so many places in scripture that show that. For example, the fruits of faith where it says love, joy, peace, patience, goodness. Children don't even see evil. They don't even think that it's there.

They also don't impute bad motives to people the way that we do as adults. We always second-guess somebody's thoughts. And I also want to say about the forgiveness that it is, in Amos, I think it is, he says, God is the one that declares unto man what his thought is. If you think about it, why does God have to tell you what you think?

You don't even yourself know. So how can you know what another person is thinking and why they're saying what they're saying? I just don't think that we have any right to start trying to be like Jesuits and try to figure out what this person means by this and how they... I think we can just freely forgive. There's certainly no error. We're certainly not at any risk in forgiving.

We certainly are in error and at risk if we are knowingly saying that they're in faith when we know that they're not. But it's not an error to forgive. And then I wanted to end by saying about what Chuck said about confession. My heart says amen. I thought one of the very best benefits of confession is that you're speaking to that person. So often you wonder, like Chuck said, that

But they can still love you. And when they do, that is like Christ saying that. They still love you and still don't think of you any different. And I just don't know how you get that unless there's a believer that tells you that. They forgive you and then you see them in church again and they look at you exactly the same the way that a child does.

Can you also put your feet on the seats?

This is on a little bit different track, but when we think of Luther, he was a man who God gave great gifts to, and he was, say,

reformer of the church, took care of many of the errors that were in the Catholic Church at the time. And we've heard in recent times much of what Luther says. When I was called into the office of preaching,

I'm sure many of the brothers who are here have had those same kind of admirations. That we read God's Word, we read other sources, Luther being one of them. And there is a book that is called What Luther Says,

many people are reading. I have it myself at home. We need to realize when we read what Luther says is that these are just small snippets of information that are taken from various places. And if we look at the preface of that book,

We see the authors of those, the people who compiled these thoughts of Luther. And we can say that they are not believers. Many of them are theologians, but they are not believers. And so we need to be careful when we read what Luther says

that these many snippets of information may be taken from the time when Luther was not believing, many of them were taken from the time he was believing, but yet they are compiled in bits and pieces by unbelievers. And so, when we read what Luther

also need to do as we had here above in this slide that we need to read the bible and we need to ask them that question is that in this small snippet of what luther says does it agree with what god's word says

And also, does it agree with the simpler writings? Luther was a theologian. He got very deep into many things. But there are many Christian writings that we can read that are much easier to understand than Luther. And so we compare what Luther says against those writings. And we compare

Luther says with the understanding in God's kingdom and talk about those things in God's kingdom. Is this the way we as believers understand these things? Because I think many of these differences have come by these small snippets of information that are in what Luther says.

I'm not saying in any way that we should not read what Luther says. That book is thicker than the Bible, and if we took all of Luther's writings, there are hundreds and hundreds of volumes of Luther's writing.

how would I say it, is taking what is written in the Bible and expounding on those things which may or may not be

the correct way to expound on this. And so all I'm saying is that we want to be careful when we take Luther's writings and put them above the Bible. The Bible is the highest authority. Luther says the Bible is the highest authority. And when he talks about his writings, he says that he would not wish that they would bring confusion.

And rather that they would all be burned than to bring confusion into God's kingdom. So just that, what I was advised of when I was called into the office, that highest authority is God's word. And these other things are things that we can look to, but we need to ask that question. Do they agree with our faith?

That was the one on the back.

okay um i'm not trying to be oppositional and i don't even this is the first i've heard of that you can forgive your sins through communion was today and um i kind of went to the source that i figured that you know it came from and i agree with what ron said about martin luther but um it says in our catechism and i don't know if i should read it because it's a little bit long

But it does say in here, you know, that we have this in the Catechism. This is what it says. The holy evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, together with St. Paul, write thus. Our Lord Jesus Christ, in the night in which he was afraid, took bread and blah, blah, blah. You know, okay. And then it says, of what use is such eating and drinking? It is pointed out in these words, given and shared for you for the remission of sins.

naming that in the sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation. It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does it, but the words which stand here, given and shed for you for the remission of sins. These words together with the bodily eating and drinking are the chief theme in the sacrament.

And he who believes these words has what they say and mean, namely the forgiveness of sins. And that is written in our catechism. And so maybe that is why some people have this understanding that I don't think they're saying that they absolutely go out there and believe that their sins are forgiven. I definitely agree with what, what's his name, Billy Powell said.

But I think maybe this is where a misunderstanding could come in because it says this in our catechism. And maybe we should have some discussion around that. It doesn't say this in the Bible, but this is what it says in the catechism.

and hope that my thoughts could be clear. I know that there's thoughts going on many different topics and wouldn't be able to comment on all of them clearly. So I want to try to speak of the presentation that was kept tonight and then also touch a little bit on yesterday.

The presentation tonight speaks about the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit continues the work of Christ in the world today. And the Holy Spirit is God. And we base our understanding and our teaching on God's word. And in our introduction tonight, there's an exhortation that we would study God's word.

Yesterday, we had a presentation to begin our meeting, and the Spirit said amen with what was presented on the role of the board members. We also heard in the speeches, and the Spirit, from many of the speeches, and the Spirit says amen to those many speeches. How, in the Acts of the Apostles, it also

not that we would believe for others or that we would make demands upon others to believe but that we would care as those who have been called in the congregation that we would first wish to care that the spiritual needs of the congregation would be provided for and we've heard also how watchmen would give a warning so that

not be guilty of one going, being injured and so on. So the spirit of God was there present in our meeting yesterday and it is present here again this evening. And the question was asked about the two spirits that were present there. And I can't speak about

What is troubling some in God's congregation? It's not clear to me. But I do want to reassure those of you who would wonder that are there visits that take place after a meeting when there is questions or when there is confusion? Discussions do continue. Sometimes in those discussions,

So we can also leave those visits and those discussions with confusion and not understanding things as the other has tried to express with prayer that God would enlighten and God would help and God would give us

Today when we came to the services here and to the discussion here, we went by many churches, or most of us have, and in those churches they read God's Word. And if you have unbelieving friends in society, you can also visit with some of them about God's Word.

We also want to remember that God's word is not open privately to me or to you or to others, but God's word is open through the power of the Holy Spirit. When there is a spiritless devotion, God's word is read, but God does not open that word for the salvation of souls. And neither can you or I in our visits

open the matter of unbelief or understanding to others, but we can only speak with what little gift God gives us to speak with, and then we can pray for one another, or we can exhort one to go again and listen, to hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. So we study God's Word

And if our understanding of God's word is not in unity with what is taught in God's congregation, we want to pray that God would humble us and give us a hearing ear and a receiving heart. So let's not doubt that the visits continue. Let's pray on behalf of those

who are struggling or seem to have an understanding that is different than what our understanding is, but first let us keep faith in a good conscience. I've heard tonight just how I understand the gift of confession. Confession is not a works for a believer,

as it is by other denominations in this world. But for a believer, confession is a fruit of the Spirit. It's a gift that we can use, and it helps us as we travel. One question that was asked yesterday

and I visited with a brother again today about that same question, or a couple of brothers today about that same question, is the robe of righteousness. I cannot lay out for you, as was requested, what exactly is the question, but I can say for myself that I want to get to heaven

I want to travel on the narrow way of life. I believe that by grace are you saved through faith and that it is not of our own strength. And I pray that God would always give me this desire to again and again put away the sins that so often beset me and burden me.

and that I also would be able to be freed from the doubts, it seems that in my walk of faith, I so often stumble, and I so often fall, and I cannot find, as God's word says, any good in myself. But I can hear again and again that gospel message which is preached in God's kingdom. We heard that gospel preached yesterday. We've heard that gospel.

And I pray that God would give us the hearts that we would wish to battle together against the enemy, against false teachings, against man's knowledge. And I think the matter of childhood faith is a personal matter for each one of us, and we do want to keep that childlike faith.

We also want to ask what does God's word mean when it speaks in ways that we may not understand. I want to read, for example, from Ephesians 4, 11, for those of you who have asked questions about this, not believing as a child.

But it says that he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists. So he speaks of the offices that had been given in the congregation. And these were given for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the statute,

says that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slight of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to be deceived. To me that answers in part

of how we would not be as a child. We want to believe as a child. We want to have childlike faith. We want to believe the gospel when it's preached to us and when we preach the gospel to others. But we don't want to listen to foreign doctrines or foreign teachings or teachings that trouble the spirit or cause us to become nervous. But we want to again and again return and ask, what do the believers say?

I rejoiced in so many of the speeches yesterday, and yet I want to say that I did not understand some of the speeches. Only a few. And I pray that God would help us so that we would not become so tired that we would not continue to visit openly.

that we would pray that God would help us, we would share our thoughts of our hearts, and then we would also stand to be corrected. That we would not stand on our own words, but we would be in the care of the congregation. And I have felt tired. I felt fearful on my own part.

And today we've heard of the message of the gospel when it speaks of the last day. And I fear that will I hear my name read, and will I hear that call that come, ye blessed of my Father, to inherit that which has been prepared since the foundations of the world. We were encouraged this morning that we don't need to fear.

That we would believe that we will hear. But I yet again want to hear, can I believe these sins and doubts for you? I want to, together with you, ask for God's guidance as he has guided us to this day. And that we would, each one of us, be in the hearing of God's word and in the unity of the spirit.

Yeah, I had asked her to speak to her a bit ago, but I guess much of what I was thinking was what Jim just spoke. Yesterday, the question was, were there two spirits? I'm not so sure I can go there and say there's two different spirits there. There's two different understandings. And I think if two different understandings are allowed to remain and they aren't cleared up, they can turn into two different

to different spirits. So I wouldn't, you know, dear brothers and sisters, not to become so fearful in this, that God is helping us. And it will merit that we continue discussions and visits as we have. You know, those speeches yesterday were with love and instruction for those with a different understanding. So it wasn't

I think what's important for us, each of us, is to take a step back and realize that we're living in God's kingdom. It's a family kingdom. And the enemy hates it. And he wants to destroy it. And by breaking the love between brothers and sisters through different understandings, wrong understandings,

then the spirit can become defiled if the resistance to the care of the kingdom is there. So I think what's important is that we would each with humble hearts ask that as David

that search me, O God, know my heart, see if there be any evil or wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. It's good to ask questions, you know, this question about communion. I think it's a good question that we should discuss.

But these things aren't going to happen tonight or in the next week or two. But God's kingdom, these teachings have been ever of old. There is a heresy in Finland around this question of forgiveness in communion. There were many ministers that left in that heresy when they defended their position that there was forgiveness there. So there are these kinds of things that have happened throughout history. And the teaching of God's kingdom has been and is

So take a step back and allow God to patiently work through these things and reveal these things in his time. We can't wrestle things out until it's God's time. It's a test of our faith on the other hand. There have been those who said, well, it must not be God's kingdom if it's a bad kingdom like that. Well, it is.

So, brothers and sisters, maybe this evening with patience and prayerful hearts, ask first to be me as a child of God, and then also protect his kingdom, the kingdom which is dear and precious to me, so that none would be lost. You know, these are serious things that we're facing. They're questions of salvation. These things are being brought

for discussion that can potentially divide God's kingdom. They're serious things. So we need to approach them with the prayerful hearts that would, God, unravel these matters and lead me in the way everlasting. Another comment, Eric Mars.

Before Eric took his turn, I think he basically said what I had the same thoughts. That there at the meeting, I don't feel that there was two different spirits. Because if we say there was two different spirits, that means one was incorrect, and that there were not believers there.

But yet, as Eric has already said, which I couldn't say any better, that there seemed to be different understandings. And myself, hearing different speeches, I did get a chance to get clarification on the speeches. And so oftentimes, in meetings that we sit in, and even tonight, there have been questions that, did I hear the comment right?

And so I wouldn't go so far to say that there was two different spirits yesterday, but yet there were questions of understandings. And as Eric had pointed out, that we need to continue to discuss these understandings and seek them in truth so that

If we are wrong, we can be corrected. We can continue to walk in God's kingdom.

because we all want to make it to heaven. None of us want to find ourselves outside of God's kingdom. They are serious matters, and I believe that if there are clarifications that are needed, that those discussions continue to happen. And there was a very nice instruction as well

And so I wouldn't say that there hasn't been further discussion. Those will continue to happen. Yet let us carry one another in love and that we look to ourselves first and foremost and ask, how are my matters? And when our matters are forgiven and if we can listen, we can ask questions with a hearing ear, as we've heard,

then we can remain on this path and we don't follow our own agenda. So let us continue these discussions and they won't all be answered tonight. I know the hour's getting late, but yet we want to continue in love and listen with open ears.

I just want to say that the brothers have spoke well to that, that I was thinking of concerning our meeting yesterday, and I think the nature of the meeting was that it was an open meeting in the sense, of course, it was board members and speakers, but it wasn't that kind of a meeting that it was,

secretive in any way, but naturally board members and speakers go from that and discuss and speak of what took place at the meeting. And I think that it's been pointed out that there was many comments around comments that were discerning and those

points of view were brought out, so I don't think it was a matter that was left that we weren't understanding the message that was

from both sides of the question, and certainly I agree with that too, that continuing the discussions is always good, but it was a matter, it wasn't like it was just a comment made that there was

misunderstandings of it and that concern was voiced about it. Naturally, if there is something that raises concern, then it will be discussed. But I think we do discuss these in a constructive way.

It's good to see so many gathered here this evening to discuss matters of faith and even these concerns, but that exhortation to patience and caring one another in love and forgiveness, although we can easily become tired and impatient in these things.

And some of these discussions have been going on for some time now. And I think that, in my mind, the Spirit has been speaking and addressing these things. One of the main ones, of course, has been on the matter of forgiveness. And I think, you know, sometimes we still hear comments that seem to imply that some are withholding forgiveness

I think it was a question that was raised, and it was not raised because they were seeing fruits of this, that people were examining the hearts and not proclaiming the gospel. And that wasn't why the question came up, but it came up, I don't know exactly why, but certainly it hasn't been

issue in our time where there has been this

where people aren't receiving the gospel and they're asking for it. I think that I believe with all of us, it's our desire to proclaim the gospel and that we don't want to be examiners of the hearts of men. We're not those that judge the hearts of men, but we preach the gospel. But on the other hand, I think the Spirit has recently

revealed that clearly in these discussions and I think that we should accept that the Spirit has taught us in this way that there have been times and there can be times

when the gospel is not preached. And I think that if you're struggling with that, in my mind, you're not hearing how the Spirit is taught in this matter. And so, sometimes, yeah, when I hear implications, and I'm not saying we have heard some of those comments tonight, and I'm not saying that those who made them are feeling that way,

But there seems to be sometimes that implication that there are those that are wanting to withhold the gospel and aren't preaching the gospel and want to be the examiners of hearts and so on. But I don't think that's the case at all. I think that we all understand that in a correct way that it's our...

desire and our intention to always preach the gospel. But we remember that it's not through our power that we preach the gospel, but it is the power of the Holy Spirit. So we also yield to that and understand that

the spirit can stop us and not preach the gospel at times even when we want to and we've heard of those experiences where people have desired and wanted to but their mouths have been closed

So that's how I felt and understood on this matter of forgiveness. And so it can be concerning if it continues to be a place of confusion when it seems like in all the meetings I've heard that message where I've attended the meetings anyway that

that same message that I explained, and that's where I want to trust and believe that. I think it goes back to what we talked about, we heard tonight in the presentation, that focused on the work of the Holy Spirit, and that's where we want to place our trust. And I also believe my sins forgiven.

Then I want to give greetings from Brother Keith. We were a little late coming here as we were visiting him, and he's doing well. [health details omitted] So we want to remember him and his family in prayer.

I did have one more comment on the back, but in the essence of time, I guess, I'm not sure when I should. Yeah, we've heard much tonight about the faith of a child.

there's many examples of this in the bible and we all know the example that jesus uses to settle a dispute is the child and it's a it would be a beautiful beautiful if you could i could live my entire life of the faith of a child and maybe these

Maybe the portions that Yoko talked about, or maybe the one Jim referenced a little bit, kind of, I don't know if it's right or not, but I think of, it would be, it's impossible for me to live my entire life with the faith of a child because I'm an adult, I'm a man. The enemy of souls speaks to me differently

than when I was a child. But it is clearly the goal to live that faith of a child. We've heard many, many times in my life, put your mind in captivity and believe like a child. And it's over and over, wonderful instruction.

i guess being that time is late final thoughts and prayers

As I've sat here tonight, I've actually asked myself one question. Have I been able to put the best construction on everything I've heard?

And I would say it this way, the comments I've heard in previous meetings when I've tried to look at it from this point look different to me than before. We may have misunderstandings. We may hear things wrong.

But dear brothers and sisters, as I think about us tonight, I think that right now, we're all still unseen halfway. Perhaps some of us are

wandering to the right, and some of us to the left. But we are still members of the same kingdom. So I want to really echo the comment of Brother Jenae who characterized the meeting yesterday. And I wasn't there, so I can't speak to that.

let's not begin to say that there were two different spirits there if it's just a misunderstanding or or things that need to be clarified at this point because two spirits does mean that if you don't have the spirit of god then you have another spirit and that's not someone who is in faith

that point could come. And over the decades, there are some here who have seen those moments. Some of us have grandparents who have seen multiple moments when those spirits became evident.

My grandfather lived through multiple moments of those and I'll never forget my last conversation with him because it matches what belongs here in this screen. He was already hard of sight, couldn't see. He didn't know who we were as we came to greet him there on his deathbed.

First, he asked me, who are you? And I said, I was Rick. And he said, well, whose boy are you? I said, Paul's boy. Are you still a believer? He said, yes. He said, keep faith and good conscience. My dear brother and sister tonight, are you still a believer?

because if you are keep faith and good conscience lift up your heart and believe assuredly that your sins are forgiven in jesus name and blood in jesus name

I keep rubbing punches and fears in one look. I want to play together with you.

Let's join our hearts together in closing prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, again and again you have shown us how you are so good to us. Keep us on the way of faith. Bring us again and again to the feet of your dear Son,

in whose work we have perfection, through whose work we can simply believe our sins forgiven. Give us power to keep faith until faith changes to seeing eternity. Give us strength to help one another. Give us love. Give us compassion. Give us patience.

to help our brothers and sisters. Above all, lead us one day to heaven. The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Amen.

Scheduled for the upcoming week is as follows. On Wednesday, there is Bible House at 7. On Sunday, there is 915 Sunday School at 10.30 a.m. service.