Rockford Congregation Discussion, January 21, 2018

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Family discussion will resume at 5.47. Congratulations on your presentation.

Thank you. Thank you.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Thank you. Thank you.

I don't think they're broadcasting it.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Thank you for being present with us through that experience that you guide our discussion, that we might be strengthened in faith, that we might be encouraged to continue on this way and lead so to a life eternal. Dear Father, I would be thankful for all the gifts

If one week we pray that this gift of faith would be for all of us.

Father, to discuss Thy Word and to praise Thy holy message, the Gospel of the forgiveness of sins with the protection of this God, we thank You for that. And we pray, dear Father, in closing, all of our timid petitions and silent Romans

Mark, come back.

The first thing I did was say, that's painful. That's lots of pain.

Introductory remarks. So, it's not your typical presentation, but it's taken from, and it is the introductory

We have a copy, 90% of them are open. And as you see, it is kind of open. We haven't made any hard copies of it.

Probably many of us are aware, but many of us maybe are not aware, that for the last several years since then, the minister's teleconference, I haven't, or we haven't remembered the purpose of the teleconferences.

We call this Southern Minnesota. It's probably about 30-ish, and there's some in New Perth. And total, there is 121 or two speakers at this time. So the purpose of it is to gather together, get that opportunity to discuss the work of God's kingdom.

Half or two-thirds of the presentation. I wanted you to concentrate on that, too, because there's a lot of reason for Thanksgiving, a lot of reason for joy, a lot of good things happening at God's Kingdom. And some people hear the total presentation

So, let's not forget that there's lots of reasons to pray and thanksgiving. So, here again, we hope to see and read, plus I'll read for you the points, except for a few, because it came

So, I hope that we

Somebody recently asked

That's very similar.

Last year, I will keep this presentation, and they said something like this, that we're not going to tell you the culture, what you should write, or what you should think. So it started from that point. My experience is, since February 1st,

And of course it's not just, I want to give you the idea that just my thoughts, but then it's read through and looked at and I was asked to clarify thoughts that were quite mean at this point or that point. So let's look at it. People have a chance to look at it.

Let's not forget that. And there's unity with our sister congregations, meaning SRK, SFC, and then the sacraments became a point of discussion at certain times. And then peace we have, but we also have unison. And so there's, we'll talk about

We have watched them on the altar time with a separate point of exhortation to speak with us. So, the sacraments were discussed in many topics this year. So, why do we think there's a bright future for our church in Zion?

Because there's a part that doesn't work, you can see the evidence in the various bullet points. It is evident in the various work forms within the mountain seat, such as pedestrian, Christian,

Very positive and supportive messages. And that is an end.

You can see coming from all over the earth. You can hear some negative comments.

It's a topic of many sensitive matters. It's always with the love of Christ, the love for the individuals, and I've not seen anything other than I can say it's heavy-handed or demanding.

The end of time is near. So, it's signs of hope. It's signs that we can save them. It's signs that it's great. The second point that, as you recall, Unity, what the sister organizations, SFC, SRK, this brings so long.

We had several days of discussion. There was, for me, it was a special time, certainly. It was a... We talked in detail about some of the matters that are

The next one, since my time of service at the LFC, so we had a very heavy spiritual

In the course of three days, we have been formed not even a riddle of difference between them that we think so. I want to leave you with that. That's the doctrine of doctrine and of spirit. There was no difference between us. But the idea is also

It's a mutual work across the kingdom on an international level where we sat down and we talked, I think it was about 12 different work zones of how we can interface, how we can work together. And again, unity. I retired from a larger

We had the brothers from Finland. That was the fourth time we had a type of weekend of which one presentation was on disciples. And again, we found out, verified, that we share the same understanding and the same beliefs of the disciples. What they

So, there's kind of a hot button question. In recent times, the following question has arisen. Does one receive absolution in communion?

That's all. We care for our conscience. Once, again, referring to the camp in October, Funky Pominant gave that presentation. He said what community it is, and it's exactly what the Lord's Supper and

The forgiveness of sins, the cleansing of our conscience by taking breath in the body of God in Christ.

As our others and our sister organizations

These cannot be resolved by compromise or even a negotiation. It is the result of the successful planting of the seeds of doubt by the enemy.

We had time to go into a little bit more detail there, but I learned a major lesson in my life when God gave me grace

I thought in my mind, there is no way that they would ever come into faith.

Issue or source, although in general, unrest comes from a divided conscience and from a rationalization of Scripture. And the following are some positions individuals have taken, statements that have been made, and some observations. They are offered support in the beginning.

So, how did these volunteers or positions come about? During my time here, I've talked to individuals and some that think differently and believe differently than I do on certain things, and we've been able to talk about those things.

We've all heard of it and everything. But it gives us a background for why we are concerned. So the fight may vary some positions. Individuals have taken the statements made. One, long-term positions have taken on forgiveness.

And those of you that are reading from here, because there's quite a few, so I tried to learn from PowerPoint and it didn't take quite that long. So I'll just simply read them. We'll hit the five major points first. Christianity's position on birth control is challenged by some. The third point, carnal evil in God's kingdom.

Now the American side, [unclear]. Okay, so I'll go back then to the first one, following positions. Following positions taken on forgiveness, confession, and communion. In recent times, the following question has risen. Does one receive absolution and communion? We just talked about that.

Some say that there can never be a situation in which the gospel could not be preached. This is not a solid point. On the other hand, some who say that

They are pretty lucky. So I don't think you're there at that time. But some of them, I'm the one that can feel that you can, there's never a situation where you can't not preach the gospel. On the other hand, they themselves don't seem to want to forgive the [errors].

Kind of a peculiar phenomenon has been noticed in some sermons. Namely, a lot of them still freely proclaim

[On the] robe of righteousness, some maintain that since we have the righteousness of Christ, we are always forgiven and do not need to continually hear the gospel. Confession and its place as a grace gift seems to be losing its value in the Son. Although those were the sub-points under the heading of forgiveness

Again, this position of birth control is challenged. Some claim that the Bible doesn't forbid birth control, and that which the Bible does not strictly forbid is permissible. I actually was in a discussion personally when that came up. And of course, if you earn the pages for the Bible, you're not gonna find birth control at all.

That's the way that we should be, and we should receive them. That's telling us that that's their place, and we always took the birth of a Jew. The mother said that, two different messages on birth control, coming from the pulpit and the very bottom of each. That was the first one.

And the couple has sent a confusing message. We know that there are some very difficult legal and health issues, but it seems to me missing an imminent lack of trust in God and a reminder to keep faith in a good conscience in these issues. Okay, the third point, the carnal view

There's a lot for our long-winded. The Finnish brothers preached weeks. We've discussed that point with the Finnish brothers. I think there's been nine at one point, I think, over 2017. Nine different Finnish and Swedish brothers that came. Discussed this point. And they have to openly assure us

Speakers here that they have interfaced with. Some are offended at the biblical teaching that ministers and board members are watching on the pulse of Zion. And of course that comes out of scripture. I think we might have met, might be some fears that some people have had. But we believe that God has placed

Are the United States decisions of man, rules, and bond like this? Examples include sports, personal or part of it,

Critical accusations of self-righteousness or works righteousness are directed at ministers and others who are in the love of God's kingdom. Some are critical of sermons that speak in the sermons of good times.

At this point in time, the stage has

This is done in the search of something which will overturn long-held understandings and adaptions of the Dominican model improving the point of concern. Private interpretation of the model

Some believe that the spirit can reveal to an individual differently than to the congregation. Some speak of the authority compiled but forget that the word in the congregation

John Bloomquist. You can't separate the congregation from the word of Christ, from the word of God. So, it's a very, very strange understanding. Then, point four. Caretaking mistakes of descent, age and age seem to be in prison, to which some now view American Zion. References and

It seems that some see a parallel to what we had in North American Christianity today. Some have pointed out that the errors that were made in the 70s caretaking, some have pointed to the errors that were made in the

The caretaking of that period was at times driven by some of the caretaking of our mind bearers in the past. Since that was the case, all caretaking of that period is to be dismissed because of errors. That's a big topic there.

I can speak to that one's self, and I will say this, that my congregation of people, we had care-taking meetings. Some of them went too far. We had care-taking meetings too that were very good for us. And once matters were cared for, like we say, each person takes away their own part, they receive

I think the danger there is that paint and everything, everywhere, that goes in a figure. I'll bring in one point. A week and a half ago, we were able to discuss certain things with some of the brothers, and we had some time to talk about that time in the 70s, and one of the brothers just put it

Getting in front of the final point tonight,

We enjoy the unity of the Spirit with the Finnish Brethren in all matters of Christian God, our understandings of the various issues that are going on in my house. And it would be a question, who in Finland understands it differently? The people that we deal with.

I think I put this next one up here. If you look at all these comments,

What did you read? It's a question.

We have to take care of them through the power of the Gospel. We are that way, united, remaining united through the Spirit and the Kingdom. It's a real dangerous thing to hold on to ideas that are not supported by Scripture.

If you see a man in positions and all the decisions that's against him, I can speak of an individual in my life and I want that person to be lost, not only in faith,

The law of the media, the congregation of God and its mother, are solid. Now we need to start by putting away the sins that result in the hindrance that has struck the heart and blinded the eyes. So, the last part, because it was a speaker's talk conference, it seemed good to get you over to it.

We remind our speakers, all who approach me, tell this to the speakers here. Dear brothers, we have our own place of watching, our own place of watching and our own place of watching. What can we do? Let us keep faith in the conscience, live with the Gospel, let us remain faithful to the Word,

Open their hearts.

We are cared for with God's grace. We are not watching neurotic statements, accusations, whether public or private, of our sin. And we emphasize what we believe. And we emphasize what we believe is based on Scripture and the teachings of the Spirit and the Congregation. Avoid debates and arguments. Be united in the Spirit. Remember that we must give an account for the souls of others.

Pray for those who are troubled, that none will be lost. Remember that we need the whole, we're full of armor of God, at least Madison. So, the presentation ended.

In the path that our King has trod for our hero, those before us with his vestiges of the blood. That was the presentation that was kept at the last minister's temple. I think Rocky is going to be the person that's going to pick it up.

Good afternoon.

Thanks for coming this afternoon. As Walt mentioned, I was prepared for the minister's conference.

And at the board level we discussed at length these issues presented here and also what the board considered was the importance of letting our congregation know what the minister's teleconference revealed to us and the unity of the spirit

It's a fact that here on the Rockford board that these virtual discussions take up quite a bit of time, that we discuss these

There are some issues that are currently affecting Zion and how they affect our local congregations and so it was thought that it would be great if our congregation could also have some input and some discussion about these points also.

So, with that, I'm prepared to, you know, we have a rolling mic here, and I'm prepared to moderate the discussion, I guess. With that, does people have comments or questions that

I could make it known to everybody else that this person has a comment, and then the discussion part would come from the rest of you, so that I'm just here to facilitate finger-pointing. That person has a question, so I'm not finger-pointing over any spiritual or any contentious issues, but just that somebody has a question or a comment to make, so...

With that, if anybody would like to see any of these slides again, we can certainly go back and forth and look at these slides. And as Walt said, his observations of the last year, as he said from February to the time of the Minister's teleconference,

And his observations that the LLC asked for him to put together. So, anybody have any questions or comments they'd like to start off with? And as a help to me, maybe when you raise your hand, maybe wiggle it a little bit so that it draws me behind that.

We have a comment. Gary in the back here has a question or comment. A few comments here to bring about.

I spoke about all the importantness of some of the things in here. I got to come from that introduction. The topic was the law in the gospel. Just a quick thing I want to say about that is that the, there's comment on that, but the law

Grace is the teacher for the believers of grace. I also mentioned the 500 year remembrance of the Reformation.

The Bible is the only guide by which all doctrine and teaching in the congregation should be judged. The Bible is the highest authority for faith in life. And I think that's good to keep in mind when we have receptions on doctrinal issues that the Bible is the place to start.

I want to talk about forgiveness and then all of these, as a believer, continuous forgiveness. First of all, as children of God are both sinful and justified at the same time. And the child of God is simultaneously

All of us will battle against sin, but nevertheless, cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, acceptable before God. And just a couple of places from Romans here. Romans 3, 23, 24. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified and freed by His grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ. Romans 1, 17. The just shall live by faith.

As a believer, we have a life of faith, a belief that is continuously of the grace of God and forgiveness, and in this way is at the same time righteous and simple. That one comes from the Holy Word and others in adoption. We can believe when we have

That we can believe that even when we don't have those grace fields, one can believe every moment that I am acceptable before God, no matter how I feel. Faith is being in the righteousness of Christ and living in forgiveness every moment. That's what a treasure-hidden field is. I used another comment from Juhani Uljas, who wrote that book, Treasure-Hidden Field.

From one of the sermons, as a believer, are sins continuously forgiven? That's the question. Are they continuously forgiven? As a believer, we have continuous forgiveness, not only when we're asked for the gospel, but also when we're able to give the gospel personally. But when we doubt the grace of God, and it feels as if, because my journey is unsuccessful, my faith is insufficient, we can ask, does the gospel belong to me?

Also from Treasure Hidden [in a] Field, this one has to do with confession. So I mentioned already that the just shall live by faith, we're saved by faith. Here's what Juhani Uljas writes about confession, is that confession is a God-given gift to us that helps us on our endeavor of faith. We go to make confession just as much a believer as when we return.

The word of absolution that belongs to confession has simply freed our conscience from heavy burdens. The performance of confession does not cleanse our conscience, but believe in the word of absolution. God does not cleanse our hearts by confession, but by faith.

Okay, this is about forgiveness. This is from Vojta Mitzalos' Vojta's introduction. This has to do with forgiveness in that sense about conditions on forgiveness, conditions on forgiveness.

Preaching the gospel. The sermon of repentance is necessary because without penitence towards one's sinfulness, man does not need grace, nor can he accept the gospel salvation. And then this quote from Luther. Even though faith is not possible without penitence, nevertheless God has not placed penitence nor any other condition as a requirement

Faith alone is all that's needed. And here's how it's stated.

Since [the mic] is right here, I'll continue. First of all, I'm curious about the statement that some ministers are reluctant to preach the gospel at the end of their sermon. I guess I haven't noticed this at all. And I listen to tens of sermons each week, both from Finland and America. So I'd be curious to hear and know where this is coming from.

Because I haven't observed it myself. But then we do have the custom, I could say, tradition of ending the sermon with preaching the words in Jesus' name and blood. And that's a nice comforting message. But we must remember that the entire sermon

From the first word after reading the text to the last, Amen is the gospel, as Luther says, when the listeners are brought to the hill of Golgotha and to the bloody wounds of Christ Jesus and to remember his victorious resurrection from the grave. So when speaking about Christ's work,

This is entirely the gospel. And I have listened to multiple sermons by Ville Suutari, for example. And the listeners are totally moved when he is describing what Christ has done for us and bringing the listeners to the wounds of Christ Jesus. And there's rejoicing in the background and people asking for forgiveness. And then at the end of his long sermon, he just suddenly says, Amen.

He never said those words of, you can believe sin's forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. Many times he did, but often he didn't. Was that not a gospel sermon? I don't think so.

Continuing on this continuous forgiveness, there'd be many quotes, but Vilho Karanta spoke in Suviseurat Summer Services in 1972. When it is said that sin clings, it does cling. But have you considered what grace is? I'm sure you have. But think again what grace is. Every moment you can believe your sin's forgiven. Every moment.

No defilement or impurities will reach God. So every moment we can believe sins forgiven, which cling and make the journey slow. We realize that truly sin does cling, but we believe simultaneously evil on the one hand, yet holy. Sinner on the one hand, but righteous at the same time. Remember and believe that sins are truly forgiven every moment.

Because they are forgiven every moment, we are truly, we are worthy, acceptable before God because of the merits of Jesus Christ. Does this mean once a believer, always a believer? No. Does this mean we never need to hear the gospel again? No.

We, as we heard Juhani Uljas' statement that we have the grace privilege that we can be reassured and go to a fellow brother and sister and open up our heart and be reassured that we can have our sins forgiven.

Any others? Any statements or questions?

Since there's silence here, might as well break the silence and hopefully get the discussion going.

As I said, I listen to sermons all the time. I recently listened to a sermon by [Typpö]. Some may know the name, some may not. He visited this country in 1963 and again in 1974. He kept this sermon in Finland in 1979, speaking on Colossians chapter 2, and where it says that we are rooted and grounded in Christ Jesus. And he talked about

He told a story that he had heard, and he went back to the time of that new awakened heresy that broke in Finland at the end of the 1800s, beginning of the 1900s. And he said that after the heresy broke, the work of God's kingdom continued, and for some reason many of the ministers began to, as if he said,

Men the fence, fixing the fence, working on the fence. And he says that as if begin to push the fence in the direction of becoming more tight or more law-minded or righteousness toward the direction of righteousness of the law.

And he said, well, it's important to talk about these matters and concerns of the past heresy and so forth. But one, he says, we shouldn't be entirely focused on this. He said that one old grandpa once during services stood up and he said,

You know, when you ministers are only concentrating on working on fixing and patching and mending the fence and just talking about the problems and concerns, he says, us lambs, us listeners, aren't being fed.

Food is forgotten to be given to the listeners. So remember, the central message of the sermon is to bring the listeners to the wounds of Christ Jesus and remember the resurrection victory of Christ from the grave.

Right there on the corner. It's in here. It's the question of the first two speeches.

I can relate many stories from others, from presentations, and I just have a question between them. As I said at the bottom of the presentation, I guess I didn't understand what I was supposed to get from those statements.

I don't understand at this point, was this something to refute something in this presentation or was it to back it up? That's the question.

Well, he raised the issue. Gary Lehtola. Basically, I just had some thoughts.

On some of the topics that have been swirling around lately, and that's what I've been saying.

The three colors of life.

It was nice to hear the update and my heart said amen. It was really nice to hear this presentation and I think it was a good idea that the board thought to present it. And there is a...

American Zion. We just had our first service at our new church in Monticello. I've been really involved with the work lately and kind of

When we sang the first new song tonight, my heart was just filled with joy to that God has blessed us with a place of worship and it was nice to gather there and it's nice to gather wherever God's children are.

There's a hand in the back. Is the entryway there, Carla? On the glass? Regarding this issue of continual forgiveness, I... What's this?

I think back to when my brother passed away. He had been in Minnesota before that happened, and when he left, I know that he asked from God,

Brian has passed in between the time that he went from Minnesota to Colorado. I know this, that he probably didn't sin. He probably had a bad doctorate and a bad doctorate. A lot of those sins were forgiven. He believed in the works of Christ and therefore left it good

Left a good testimony. Now I don't know for sure, but based on his willingness to simply just believe, I'm assured that he was saved. Now if one would think that

How is it, God, God demands perfection. And we know there's only one perfect one, and this world represents that perfection of Christ. How is it that man can blemish that? I know as a human being that there's times when I've done things that bothered me,

I do feel like I do have the need at times to go and be refreshed by the gospel. I don't feel that as a necessity or out of necessity, like an outward sense that other people

However, for me, it's a matter of being refreshed in faith, to be reassured that I'm believing.

We have a process over here with Carl. East side over there halfway up.

But I guess I was also struck by the, or I was just a bit confused by the comments on continual forgiveness. I'm not sure that I entirely understand what's meant by that, but I guess my understanding of matters of conscience are just simply that if we are endeavoring in faith when we die,

Then we will be taken to heaven. Our names are in the book of life. And that the greatest sin, the sin that separates us from God is that of unbelief. I've heard that referred to as the greatest sin, a minor sin. That's what that means. That's what it is from God. And that we do accumulate sin along the way. And if we accumulate enough sin and we let our confidence...

Then eventually that sin will separate us from God. That's why we need to hear the gospel on a regular basis. And so this comment on continual forgiveness, that we have forgiven every moment along the way, just kind of confused me because I guess my understanding is that we need to hear the gospel to have those things forgiven. But if we do have

Yeah, if we have, like, some thought that crosses our mind that is not correct, sins before the gospel, and then we cast, and then we cast in this way, that that's not the sin that will separate us from God. So if somebody could clarify on that, that would be good. Thank you. We have a question with a hand back here.

If there was not continual forgiveness, every time we would have a vain thought, angry emotion, it would be a sin. We'd be out of faith. Then we'd have to come back into faith. Then next time we had a vain thought, angry emotion, say a bad word, we'd be out of faith. In faith, out of faith, in faith, out of faith.

But we own Christ Jesus in our hearts. He is our salvation. He is our forgiveness. He is our source of strength and power and might and hope of heaven. Then, if we are burdened along the way, yes, then we have the grace privilege to go open our hearts, talk about those matters. We come to confession as a believer. We leave confession

Not any pure, not any better believer, no more holy, but liberated, free, and unhindered.

And they, they only care about you. And we have that grace privilege to have those sins forgiven. Many forms, many ways, many times. But we can have that. When we are blessed enough to take and have a home made for us, when we go to bed at night, we can have the Gospel and be assured that our sins are forgiven. When we go, we can go to our parents, we can go to our brothers,

We can come in church, we hear the gospel preached, we at that time probably have those kind of maybe bad and faulty thoughts that have been crept into our conscience, crept into our minds. Those are forgiven for us at that time. My understanding is this, that just because we have those faulty thoughts and those kind of things come into our mind, doesn't mean that we have no faith.

It means that we have a sin. We're not out of our faith. We're not out of our faith until that time comes when we deny our faith. Or when that time comes when we just want to go down the road and that's when we get separated from God. Just the fact that we fall into sin doesn't mean we're out of faith. It means that we have soil on the conscience and we can never put away the grace. Thank you.

Ty Anderson. Carl. There's plenty kind of...

Forgiveness. Me personally, I guess I get nervous when I hear that. Because I guess the way I often think of it is this, that as we know it, it's our faith that

That makes us righteous, or that allows us to make it to heaven. Go back to even the simple illustration that is probably used at youth camps over and over about the conscience. And this is that when we sin and continue to sin, if we don't put that sin away, that pretty soon

People who might die in a car accident, or no matter when we die in an accident, just because we are human, that we have some similar conscience. That doesn't mean that we're not acceptable. But we want to, and I think we ought to hear just another sermon, the exhortation to continually put sin away.

And of course, then we get into, as we've heard so many times, that grace gift of confession, that when something, no matter what it is, is bothering my conscience, that I have that opportunity to go and confess that so I don't have to be bothered by that. And that is a grace gift.

I feel that sometimes it's almost a license, which I don't think that's the intent, but I hear this continuous forgiveness.

The path is a narrow path, and there's both the ditches on the right and the left. But it says that, and how I personally view it, or I would say want to think of it as, is that we would want to continually or often ask for forgiveness so our conscience wouldn't become so dark that then we lose faith.

Since the mic is here, I'm going to take it in the jungle. These thoughts on what Todd said and what my dad said, it's kind of the same thing with this, what I feel lately and what concerns me or not, I don't know, is

I agree that we have an unrighteous and sinful at the same time, but I feel almost that it's being... Why is there such an emphasis on just we're always forgiven instead of try to keep a tender conscience and put sin away? That's a confusing message. If maybe I want to do this and maybe I want to try that, well, you know, it's forgiven anyway.

Where's the fear of sin? Or I feel it could get to that. And I just want to hear this simple, would we feel, have sins for death? It feels so good. Why would I want to change? And I would just pray that we could continually be simple and childlike and want to hear the gospel. And now I need to hear the gospel.

I don't have much to add. I just want to say that everyone I've heard talk is saying the same thing in my ears. So, just in different ways. But I don't hear anyone saying anything different from anyone else. So I just wanted to say that if there's other people who are thinking the same thing. And also that last point. Even if we are not required to do things in order to have faith,

Faith requires that we would want to do them. Just if we have faith truly and we're seeking after that, then we're going to continue to seek it and we're going to do what it takes to keep that

Safely and in our hearts and to truly value that. And that's going to guide our life so that we do not even want to do things like go out drinking, for example. I have no interest in that. Why would I want to? If I'm considering doing that, then what I'm doing is I'm putting drinking and what God's Word teaches on a balanced scale and saying, well, can I go drinking and still be a believer?

Technically it might be possible, but why would I want to? It's just about what your priorities are, and if you are trying to keep a clean conscience, then you're not going to want to do things that maybe technically you could do. Good speech.

I might only hit on half-cylinders here, but as you have to think of all the stuff I wanted to say after. You know, sometimes when you look at this and some of these things are being brought up like birth control or

Forgiveness. I hear people dyeing their hair, not even youth, you know, somebody coming up or somebody that's a little bit older and saying, you got some gray hair, you should dye that at church. And, you know, some things I look at, it says that, I can see sometimes people might be confused on forgiveness for dyeing hair or birth control or

Drinking, I don't think that's necessarily confusion. But you look at the other thing, if they're intended to cause confusion, that's what would be the most concerning thing. I'd be more concerned about somebody that's intended to cause confusion, not somebody

And also, I just try to go along and use childlike faith. And what some of those people that were just speaking said, you know, it's a minor sin. Also, Frantti and then Todd and the young lady before them.

Thomas Wagner is the last one. So those are some things that have been going through my mind. Thank you. Walt here.

It's one of the thoughts that I wanted to express, and with confession. I haven't expressed this before, so there would be a different audience.

These are major sins of that time which are maybe reoccurring at this time, always advancing and those kind of things. But we don't really need to know what to do if we did it.

From that song, it's very, very simple.

Graduates,

It's a great gift when you knock on something that's kind of become an hindrance to faith. Now, I have many thoughts, and they are not proper thoughts, they are sinful thoughts. I don't try to chase every thought that come and go. Years past,

It seemed to be a fact. In some comments there was almost like a fear or a

We certainly have committed sin and gold, foreign outfit becomes very difficult to believe until we need to talk to somebody about it. And maybe that isn't even the right word.

Peace.

God's grace and how that has given the power for us to believe. It's God's grace and the works of Christ that allows us to believe and all we need to do is believe that our sins are forgiven because otherwise putting things as requirements or something that we need to do on a regular basis would be us basically making our faith based on works and we can't get it.

So, works to heaven. And I agree, confession and gospel are tools, because for me at least, it's just not hearing that reassurance of the gospel makes it so much harder to believe when I've lived a sinful life. But grace is such a great teacher, and it always, if we want to follow the footsteps of Christ, we want to live the same way that Christ does.

And to remind us what we believe, but again, just doing the act of that is not what's going to get us to heaven, but believing it. I agree with Raina. Is this a photo? I agree with Raina. I feel like most people are pretty much on the same page. That, to me, is really comforting. And to talk about that continual forgiveness time,

Knowing that, let's say I forgot to ask for my sins forgiven last night, I know that I'm still going to make it to heaven if I'm forgiven. And so the way I see it is that, this is like the understanding I have, is that before God, when we have faith, God doesn't see our sin because we are collapsed through his faith. But it's hard for us to believe that when we have sin on our conscience.

But under grace, well then, shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace, God forbid. And then it talks about some other stuff in the verse 18. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. So, yeah, those are my thoughts.

This is really good to hear the answers being given because for myself I can understand why that thought is a confusing thought on this topic of continual forgiveness. We remember that last year was the year of Reformation and that was one of Luther's struggles. That was why he felt he needed to go to confession time and

Let's look at the sixth, actually I think it's the fourth chapter of Romans.

They raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification. And then in the fifth chapter, that familiar verse, Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God.

That's what Luther found. And just, justified by faith, we have peace with God. So that is the core doctrine, we could say, of what some people call continuing forgiveness. But then we can ask the question, well, how many of us have been through this life without sinning? We sin with the word every day, God, word, every day.

So therefore, Luther still found value in confession. He still found value in being able to preach the Gospel the way we preach the Gospel today, that we would believe sins for Him. In Jesus' name, precious atoning blood. Yesterday we had a presentation on

And we all know the story, so I won't relate it, but you think of the position of Cain and his offering and the position of Abel and his offering. They both appeared to be good offerings in the sight of man, but one was rejected, the other was not. It was acceptable.

This thought of justification by faith alone, in some sense, that we don't put sin away in order to become justified. We are justified by faith. But we battle sin because we are justified, and we want to put them on the lesser flesh, and we want to subject the flesh to the Spirit. And that's with the power of the Gospel,

We have a power of faith that doesn't come from our efforts, but it comes from the grace that God gives us. And then we could each ask ourselves this question that, now therefore being freed from sin, do I want to go live a sinful life? Do I want to live in the filth of this world? And I think Liam Sisby that just spoke answered that question.

If we're believing according to the Scriptures, God forbid, it does not give license to sin. We battle sin. But we battle sin with the power of the Spirit, not with the power of the flesh. That's simply how I believe. But can I still hear that Gospel from my faults and sins?

I just wanted to make a very brief comment on my experience in going to college and now working out of college. There's a lot of people that believe in Jesus.

At what point are we now saying, okay, so if you believe, you believe in Jesus now because you believe. And if you are living the life, living to be according to their interpretation of what Scripture says, then at now are we, I don't know, is it broadening?

To me, it seems like it's trying to drive me away, because there's a lot of people that do believe, and it's more of the gospel to say, hey, I want to have a sister, you want to take care of her, so I talk to them and say, it's more than just, to me, it's more, it seems like it's more than just, because there are so many people that do believe in Jesus, that do believe in the scripture. And I just want to say, I have a sister.

Just because you say you believe in Jesus doesn't mean you're justified or saved yet. It's all about true believers who all praise Jesus by faith and by heart. It's been good to listen. It's also been good to study Martin Luther and Bible class and otherwise.

One thing I found while I was studying Martin Luther is that most of his writings, it seems, were writings refuting what the teachings of the Catholic Church were. And I struggled with that for a while, trying to figure out

And for a long time it felt like a battle against my own understandings of faith. For instance, the topic of confession. And we've heard already today how the taught or received, known by faith,

Most of all those things that happen in the Catholic Church, he's very forceful and truthful and explains the doctrinal matter. We are not saved by confession, we are saved by faith. That wasn't his biggest battle. His biggest battle was battling the opposite.

Those who took those words and began to sin willfully is opposite of what God's Word teaches. If you read his writings in the Book of Concord, it tells his rebuttal to that. And he speaks very preciously about confession and how truly necessary it is.

He says it kind of this way, that those who try to reduce the value of confession are not following what he says, and furthermore, they're not even following Christ. In fact, Jesus himself gives us those very direct words, and most of our sins we forgive on earth are forgiven in heaven.

He sends us forth to preach forgiveness that way. So I think, not just think, I believe with all my heart and soul that what Jesus gave us was not some reminder statement. It is truly forgiveness and that's what removes sin from our conscience and helps us to not be burdened by them any longer.

And thinking about it as a work, Luther even also addressed that part. He said that, technically speaking, you could say that simply, saying the words of the profession are the work. You should so minimize that, pretend that that's not there because you want to get to absolution.

He tells in a part of his writings how important that is. And I don't have my phone with me, but he also, in one part of his writings, sums up the whole idea of faith. To live by faith. And then he says, and go and confess your sins one to another.

We're so interconnected. That's how we keep faith. Faith saves us. But how do we keep faith? I think that's the concern that some have heard, even in the sermons. I've had some who have come to lament to me. They're confused. After hearing sermons, and wondering what does

What does continual forgiveness mean? There was no rebuke over sin. There wasn't an explanation of what could be done. That yes, we have that grace, privilege, or confession, and we ought to use it to relieve our conscience, to help us along the way. And that's the concerning part of just simply leaving or emphasizing that over and over and over again,

The term continual forgiveness, I understand theologically what that means and I believe that. That is what we believe. But how it plays out in our everyday lives is exactly as Luther says. We can confess our sins one to another. Why isn't that simply put? Why can't we just live like that? When sins bother us, we put them away in the gospel and continue our journey.

Can't it be that simple? I truly believe that that's the way it's been written to us since a wonderful treasure of my life. I have waited to be a little bit

Some of the worries and fears I've lost will be forgiven. I want to ask, can I be forgiven?

There was a point in the introduction on when to forgive. I've always thought that we always forgive, but the psalm isn't the Bible. [Song] 65, verse 5. Jesus, obey your own, obey you, your commandment to preach the word.

Go and teach in every nation, let the sinners hear the word. May they turn from God's earth to the faith they own at birth. So to me, that's fairly rockin' to just all this preach.

I guess I think the difference is having faith in my faith in Jesus. Jesus had a moment of pain. He died only for me. But I'll use that for continuous forgiveness. And that's how I remain in

Two times in my life where I was estranged from [the comforts of attending church], and that was my only way of believing. The first time when I was gone, it was almost four months, and then at that point it was a letter in the mail from my dad.

Robert Leon Phillips. I was kind of annoyed at my mother for not writing any letters, but I guess she had written a lot, but they were too curious and she didn't want to mail them. And then I don't really foresee

On Tuesday, I got to leave town for three weeks. Supposedly, there's no prize in service. We'll see. But if that's the case, I'll believe how I believed when I was in the service, and I'll just believe that an adjacent

I just had a thought when we've been talking about continual forgiveness. Here I read it in Peter Nordstrom's book that was just published or somebody told me this story about Peter Nordstrom.

After the heresy happened, he was asked, or maybe he spoke it in a sermon, why did the heresy happen? Because of unforgiven sin.

The care of each of you, but the care of

It's not so easy when matters get heavy. The alternative route, which is kind of what I'm here again looking at, is reminiscent of that time. I never thought that if I had been reluctant in a way

Certainly, it's true that a believer

We are taught openly, we are reminded of the dangers of life. See, peace is not true.

So we are talking about faith. And it is a mystery.

And so, so I don't feel that bad for knowing that little, but it's kind of humiliating to understand so little. I don't have much understanding to speak about continual forgiveness, but what I hear is the Spirit is troubled. That's clear. That's obvious.

There are warnings of emphasis, like emphasizing the continual forgiveness too much. Sometimes what is not said is maybe more troubling than what's said.

Maybe I'm just so sensitive and so timid, but we talk about the most important matter in our lives. We talk about the treasure. And we know that the enemy is going around wanting to destroy and steal our faith. So

If we would see the enemy around, going like a lion around, seeking whom he may devour, I think we should be worried about that. And then the question would be, what can I do to keep faith? What should I do to keep faith? And not worry about talking about works. But what should I do?

How can I keep this treasure which I own, which I cherish, which I don't want to give away? And we know that unforgiven sin leads to... There's no question. If somebody disagrees, I'm perplexed. So there is a thing that

Unforgiven sin. So with the emphasis of

Maybe it's my little understanding. I know the concept of simultaneously justified or righteous and sinner. But I think it's so...

And I know that the enemy is going around and wanting to get me as a prick. And I know that my conscience gets troubled when I fall into sleep. But I also know that if I don't

Show obedience to God. My conscience can become hardened, dull, like dead, that it doesn't worry about. It doesn't worry about that anymore. And God can give His Holy Spirit away because of disobedience. So, to me, it's a necessity

You have my thanks for today. And that's why I cherish so much this moment.

Reading from the publication, the Absolution, it did work. I tried when I was a young man. I didn't want to confess the sin that troubled me, and I know it. And I tried to read the Absolution and it did not work. Why wouldn't I use confession when God has given it? Why do we need to

Well, I don't, I try not to envy those who are deep in doctrine and who understand a lot, and I don't, but I'm thankful that I can believe. And, you know, thank you. Brothers and sisters, can I just ask you a question? Carl? Oh, Brett, Philippa?

So, regarding the need to put sin away and keep the clean conscience, I think we all remember the example or the teaching that Jesus gave his disciples in John 13, where he's washing their feet, and he says, If I then, your Lord, have asked you to wash your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

If you know these things, [happy are ye if ye] do them. And I believe that this is simply preaching on forgiveness of sins. And we know there are other portions that have been referenced earlier. We were taught that we serve our sins

And then, regarding keeping a clean conscience, in 1 Timothy, there's multiple instances where Paul is writing about a clean or pure conscience. And the one that came to mind is, it writes in 1 Timothy 1, verse 19, "...holding faith and a good conscience,

Some, I mean, probably a concerning thing

I feel like my heart is going to jump out of my chest, but there's some things in the speeches that have troubled me, and maybe I misunderstood, but I've always talked to me that if you take a drink, how can you technically do it and believe it in the top?

Taking a drink is a sin, and that fear for me, you know, is getting drunk. I don't believe in it. If I'm drunk, I can technically believe in taking a drink.

And also, I feel that I need to have my sins forgiven. It's not only for refreshment, but it's a need to be loved and believed. I need to have my sins forgiven and ask the gospel.

I sometimes wonder why there are all these different questions. You know, over the past few years, the question of circumference, of righteousness, and now this is the first time I've heard of continual forgiveness. Why? What's the base of all these questions?

It worries me. What is the bottom of your mind? Reason for question after question. It seems like three years. I didn't even think about these things. Because they didn't come to mind. And then when I hear those, it makes me don't know what's going on. And I think... Since the mic is right there,

That's good to hear that discussion and I think that when there seems to be differences it's especially, I think it's

The Holy Spirit is in our midst and guiding and that's the teaching and guidance that all of us pray for and sought for that

We would be able to hear that voice in the Holy Spirit and it's teaching us as Jesus encouraged his own that after he departs he will send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit will teach and guide you in all things and even though

We are a battling congregation, and there can be differences that come. We know that that's not of the spirit, but it is the enemy of souls, who is, as we've heard, goes about like a roaring lion. And I've thought too many times in these discussions that

And today, this discussion is not much that I've heard that I wouldn't agree with. I think that many times, as the sister said, that we're saying the same thing. And I think that

At times it seems that maybe there's a lack of trust and a suspicion that, well, maybe there's this emphasis on putting sin away and that it's going too far to the law.

Or it could be a worry and suspicion that going so far to the other side that, you know, see a value in putting sin away or the importance of it. I can simply believe it's a narrow way that

Only the Spirit can guide us to. And it is the other congregation where we must put our trust and seek for that voice that is revealed through faulty and lacking

Believers. And if that mother seems uneasy and worried, there is reason to be careful and to especially listen and pray to God that we would have

Here's to here. And I think that from both sides of these questions we can find scripture that supports them.

The thought of continuous forgiveness is kind of a new phrase, I guess you could say, that some have been uncomfortable with, but I think as Rick said, I understand what it means, but I think that it's this, that as children of God we are

Not under the law and judged by the law, but we are judged by grace. No one of us could take care of our lives and take care of our matters so that at every possible moment we would be able to depart saying that all of my sins have been taken care of,

No, it's not possible, and if we try to endeavor in that way, we're not believing by faith. But yet, on the other hand, the importance of putting sin away is also supported by many portions of Scripture.

When Paul writes to the Romans, 8th chapter I believe, to mortify the deeds of the flesh, to me that says that put sin away. When James writes to confess your sins,

And so, why then are there differences? As my wife just mentioned about the various questions, seemingly

One after another. In many of these questions, personally I want to restrict freedom to ask questions and to learn even to

These differences of thoughts or opinions that we have, we're always encouraged that there's no better place to be going than to speak our feelings in the congregation of God.

Although they are important to themselves and they don't want to make light of them, but how do they really affect the daily endeavor of a child of God? And if we become so wrapped up in questions and kind of this technical aspect or

The most important matter is that we can believe. And it seems like these don't serve a good purpose if they only raise confusion and questions

But then, too, there can come this thought that in some way that if these continue to come and are raised, then they raise confusion in the hosts of God.

Just opposing and a way of expressing discontentment or disagreement with the administration of God's house. I don't know, it's just that puzzling question.

For so much of our lives in the past decades we've been able to really believe in these kinds of things.

It's my desire also to have my doors open and feel

I would ask that, can I believe what you say, it's a false religion. Carl, I believe in the Holy.

Continual forgiveness. I remember your dear brother Gomer was long gone to rest, the righteous, preaching that God forgives us all the day long, our sins forgiven. But those sins that trouble our hearts and conscience are those sins that we want to burn away.

Confess those sins. And this is very biblical. It's according to God's Word, according to His will. You heard Ray say that. James writes, confess your faults one to another. To also pray for one another.

Fight against sin. Fight against sin.

But whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. So when we confess our sins and believe them forgiven, that's the most important thing. We believe them forgiven. That is faithful and just and blessed are our sins.

There is a faithful just to bring a visit. Brothers that I remember, I'm mind-wondered. It's so good to hear these sermons.

I remember one brother saying that he was in a state of stubbornness. He put his foot down on a certain matter and he wasn't going to be persuaded.

He was like that man in the Old Testament who turned his face to the wall. Turned his head, looking, listening to the communion of God. And he didn't have peace.

Put sin away. And he didn't care who knew about those sins. So happy to believe him. Any sin that came upon him. And so the enemy wants to put us in a bunch. He wants to put us in his crutches. Tell us that.

For peace, for contentment, for liberty, peace, joy, freedom, we want. So, when we consider, you know,

When your sin fell upon you and you felt the weight of that sin and prayed to God that you could have felt that sin forgiven, God protected you. And so do all of us. We follow the sin and pray for God's protection that we could seek out and confess our Father and Father and put that sin away. God protects us. He loves us. The most important thing is that we love you.

Because of our love for Him, there's a way He will return His face from us. He'll take away our faith. We do not put our faith away, but sin away.

Both are necessary. We don't want to put too much emphasis on either one, but of course we come to services to be fed. That's our main purpose, to come to services, to be fed of the gospel.

The core message of the Gospel is, son and daughter be of good cheer, their sins have forgiven them. That is the joy and peace that we as believers have. Can I read my message? Okay, so it reaches

This juncture here, 530-ish, and we still have about nine speakers. I'm not sure what the situation is with the, we have a fundraising deal also tonight. So, I know I'm hand-waving here, everybody's probably hungry also.

So, how should we proceed from here? Should we continue on with our discussion here this evening? Or should we break for a fundraiser and then come back? I guess we need to know where the situation is for the kitchen first. Does anybody have any idea?

Who it is here? Okay, so now we need to come up, come up with a consensus somehow. Maybe a raise of hands, a count of hands. Should we continue on? Should we have our fundraiser, Neil, then come back? Fundraiser first? Hard to regroup. Neil, eat, eat, then come back?

He's an enthusiast, a hand-waiter. Let's see that. Fundraise your meal first, then continue on. Okay. Or just continue on. Let's see some enthusiasm, either way. Still, that's about 50-50.

People can go and get it and come back. They're all ready. Okay, so right now the food is ready. Maybe we'll sing our meal song and then come back and continue on with our sharing our thoughts and ideas and discussion.

I don't see what's troubling for some people. For some people, their spirit is troubled. We probably need more time than that, maybe 45 minutes. Half an hour? We won't get too live in half an hour. People are going to go home. You want to do it in shifts, this side first and that side?

Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna, uh, 620 at the latest. We'll be back.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

We're still doing pretty good here tonight. Explosive. Before we get lost in copeless, fueled by pizza, we'll get back into our discussion. Kitchen staff wish to thank everybody and they wish to

So everybody know that there's more pizza available for a snack or refreshments afterwards that you can take home or for lunch tomorrow. They're opening at $8 for a free meal or donation for each pizza, but there's plenty left. Okay, so we have...

Yeah, nine plus one, 10 conference left. We'll try to wrap this up at a convenient time where it's not too late. So Ron Nicklaus on our list next. Carl?

In the very beginning, I did say that, you know, I want those hands up and waiting for you. So, with ten people here, you may not be able to practice your waiting tonight, but let's see how it goes and maybe we can get through this. So, thank you. So, continuing the discussion, I thought that was going through my mind before the break and stuff.

And as we heard through the discussions that unforgiving is sin, and we want all of God's kingdom, and the heart becomes hardened, and there's very much a great danger there.

Thinking in particulars, there's another danger out there, and that is the gift that God gave to man, the gift of reason. And oftentimes I think when we've been discussing some of the things that, well,

Introduced earlier today, it seems like there's been a tendency to try to reason and understand matters with our mind. And I know, even for my own part, that's always a great danger and something I think we should all be, you know,

Thank you. Thank you.

And that's the beginning of our discussion this evening. One thing when I kind of hear like partial quotes

There can be full quotes from the heart of something, a document or a sermon or something that Luther wrote. I don't know if that's the nature of me or what, but I do get a little, I suppose, cautious about that.

You've seen in my own experience where I would get interviewed in my work life and we would talk about things, but they would just take certain parts of what I said and make that the hope for the article or the news release. And so, you know, at times I thought, well, I wish they would have included the other half of what I was saying. And so I think that's the same thing even in these

Different things from the speakers and elders meetings or something. You catch a name to it that's very familiar and yeah, they probably said or wrote that. What else did they say? When Luther wrote about something, what else did he say about it? And look at the whole picture. When we look at the scriptures, we look at the

We speak God's Word with God's Word, and it builds, it supports, it comes to a common understanding by faith. And that's the mystery of faith. We can't understand it without a reason. It makes no sense. We are even talking about this at our table.

It's hard for us to reason how these animals came two by two into the ark unless we have faith in God. God was a creator. Why couldn't he bring them and call them and put them in the ark? So it reminded me, like for example on that slide we have several days of discussion on such weighty topics as the sacraments.

And it brought me back to Summer Service's Speakers and Elders discussion and the presentation that our dear brother, Muggy, put together. And the part that I remember from that that seemed to stick in my mind is Tim took the example of the loon. He said, everybody here in Minnesota knows the loon.

And the beautiful cry that we hear out there on the lakes from that loon. But he said we don't kill the loon and dissect it to try to figure out how to make the noise. We just enjoy it. We appreciate it. It's a gift from God. And so also the sacraments, we don't dissect them. We simply understand them by faith. God talks to the little one there in baptism.

And they hear his voice. And we think, well, how could he hear their voice? Well, of course, he's the creator. They would know God. We know God. And we are preserved in faith. We know God also. The world doesn't know God the way the child of God knows God.

And so it kind of brings me to this thought then, how important it was in that teaching that Jesus had there in the Bible when he, let's see if I can find this here, but he talked about childlike faith.

In Matthew 11, 25, he says, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto thee of my Father, and no man knoweth the Son.

But the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. And he says, Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto yourselves.

So we can be happy to have childhood faith and to simply believe as we've heard through so many speeches today. But when sin attaches, our conscience reveals that we want to take care of it, to keep faith with a conscience, not some requirement, but freely to keep that joy of believing in our hearts.

And so then also that exhortation in Hebrews 12 to lay aside every weight and burden, which so easily . We can turn to Jesus and offer a vision out of faith and just simply believe with childlike faith. And then a lot of these questions and discussions

I have been on the board here on the wall in various circles. But I think they go away. Questions about reproduction and how many children to accept and so forth. These questions go away. The battles against the three-fold enemy

We know how they are there to take care of us, to remain as a child of God. I also want to believe in this gospel for you. Forgive me for my sins.

What I was thinking too, I hear the term continual forgiveness. It sounds different to me. It's something I haven't heard before. The way it's described, to me it sounds like grace. And so I wonder, are we

Confusing forgiveness, continual forgiveness, paired with what grace is. To me it seems like it's grace that carries us through those times that we cannot find a confessor, father, or mother, and that's what keeps us going. So the examples that were given before of Brother Arwell that had passed away, for example, that Risto had brought up, I totally agree with.

He was carried through grace to his death. And there's many examples of that, but to me that's different than eternal forgiveness. I go back to the example that was always taught years ago to the little children where the devil takes your finger, but you're sent away so he doesn't take your hand.

If he takes your hand, you put your student away so he doesn't take your arm. And when I hear this continual forgiveness, it almost, for that term, to me it almost goes against that teaching in the sense we don't need to put

I believe that grace carries you through those times when you can't sin away, but it's forgiveness

Every weight, every sin that easily beset us. That's how I believe, and I would ask, you know, if those are, if I'm misconstruing the intentions of those that are using that term, that's how I, that's what I hear when I hear that term, and maybe I'm hearing it wrong. For adults in this understanding, I think,

I guess I was just thinking, this is a really nice discussion tonight, and I would, you know, the one comment had kind of come up, that maybe why are these questions being asked, and I guess to me, the answer was pretty clear.

And at this meeting tonight, I would encourage everybody, if you have any questions, to ask them. Because if you come and you have a cracked heart, and you want to believe, God will guide your questions, and God will guide the answers. So I was just a little bit, I kind of wanted to, I was hoping that there would never be any encouragement to not ask questions. As a believer, if you want to believe,

I want to say, I want to ask some of these questions because God is in all of our hearts. These questions, even those questions come from God. But that was just my thought. And I was just hoping that any questions that come up, like we've done tonight, those questions would be answered with Scripture. We've talked in the last couple weeks about Luther and the importance that Scripture is

Our guide. And that is what we use to answer these questions. So we go back to Scripture and say, what is Scripture saying? Hopefully at these meetings, that would be our focus is, what is Scripture saying? As far as that forgiveness, I guess I was just thinking that

Obviously, we sin all the time. We're 100% sin-defiled. And we're going to have many times, maybe even daily, maybe even many times throughout the day that we're going to need to be uplifted with that gospel. And we're going to go to someone and say that, is it true that even I can believe? And maybe there's certain matters that you want to talk about. And that's obviously a very important gift.

But the most important thing, and I guess this is what I've been taught, and you can just have this discussion at home, is what is in our heart. God knows our heart, and if our heart is in the right place, He can ask for forgiveness every 10 seconds and it won't make any difference. But if our heart's in the proper place, even if we aren't able to ask forgiveness all the time, God understands, we want to believe, and He does forgive us, and therefore we're having acceptance

What it is that saves us, it's faith, and it's not a certain series of steps or things that we do that save us. Thank you. Don Loverson.

There's many things that I don't understand, especially if I try to read the Bible. But this concept of continuous forgiveness is puzzling to me. If we go back to Jesus' teaching in the Bible, he said not to forgive seven times, but 70 times seven.

You know, Jesus was instructing to forgive that many times. It doesn't seem that continuous forgiveness would go together like that. And for all my doubts and poor thoughts, could I hear the Gospel? Okay, we've got the reign of Florida.

Here in front, Carl. And then after that, Mike Tierney. Raise your hand.

Someone had expressed worry over what I had said about that, was trying to use drinking as an example, and first I just want to say I think that I'm trying to explain things, but it must have been misunderstood, and I apologize for not explaining it clearly enough, and perhaps it wasn't the best example, but it was just an example that I chose. So just trying to go back to that to explain that again.

So that whoever had that concern announced that they don't have to have it anymore. Just to start with, if you live by grace and are saved by grace and only by grace and faith, then one could, you know, if someone wanted to, if they were using that kind of logic and they were looking for ways to justify their own actions, to justify saying that I can do whatever I want to with my life,

Then one example of something that they could do would be to say, well, if I'm saved only by faith and only by grace, then I can do anything I want in my life, so I'm going to go to the bar and have a drink. But the Bible very clearly indicates that this is not a good thing to do. So as Christians, if faith is truly our priority, then that's something we're going to not want to do, if that makes sense.

And I also had found an example of, notice where it's shown that that's not something that we should do, and reading the new international version, because in this case it's a lot clearer. Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints?

Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? Those who linger over wine, who go to sample holes of mixed wine. Do not gaze at the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly. In the end, it bites like a snake and poisons like a leper. So, you know, that's something where it's very clearly shown that it's not

If someone was trying to justify their own actions, if they weren't truly prioritizing faith, they could, you know, make the argument, say, well, I'm saved only by grace, so . So, I hope that kind of helps, and rather I'm competing with these more. Thank you.

So, you know, when you hear of a meeting coming up, there's always, at least in my part, an intrepid issue. But I just wanted to say that I have marveled over the years how the Holy Spirit works in God's kingdom. And meeting after meeting over the years that I've attended, I felt...

And for my life of faith, I felt that the Spirit has given me the clarity that I needed, you know, for my personal faith. And I think if we can, you know, approach these meetings and come to these meetings with that thought and prayer in mind that with my limited understanding that the Spirit would be able to teach me

The correct way here to reach our heavenly goal. And if we can have that kind of a heart that we would not be so old that we, the correct

We can be taught and the Holy Spirit would give us the correct understanding. Even though there can be confusing speeches and whatnot, I think that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your understanding and you will get the correct understanding. And for all my doubts and fears for that, my sins for you.

We have Risto next on the list. He's left. Dale Skoog. Is Dale here? And then the next would go to Charlie Holman. I'll say it. I'm next, I guess. Yeah, this...

One John chapter 3 discusses all this continual forgiveness

Yeah, it's a term to describe in layman's terms what actually is going on in justification. And when we believe we're in Christ, and when we are in Him, we have no sin as seen by God. That's the important distinction. God sees us through Christ and His merit works, and so then we are pure, we're blameless before God, and therefore we are justified in sight, as we have no unforgiving sin as seen by God.

Okay, we're still not condemned because of it, but our conscience may become so soiled that it becomes difficult to hold on to this gift of faith, so we begin to think that, well, I've fallen in so many different ways, it's so difficult that it's too difficult for me to leave, so I'm just going to lay aside the staff and leave. That's why this forgiveness that we preach to one another and ask for is so important.

Okay, but is this a requirement? We cannot in any way set any kinds of requirements because this becomes now the work of the law. And those two cannot be intertwined. We can't even use the law in the third sense, in the sense that it's a guide for our behavior. We are believing of grace and of Christ's miracles alone cannot

As human beings. So continual forgiveness is merely this, that when we are in Christ, we are believing, a God imputes no sin to us. He demands perfection. Well, the only one that was able to be perfect was Christ himself. So that's what that means. This conscience, and taking care of the conscience, is that for this life, staying, for helping us stay in honest, honest faith, and avoiding becoming shipwrecked in faith.

And someone who doesn't seem to confess on a normal basis to me is as much of a believer as I am. I look at myself, I see nothing but sin. I see nothing but corruption and unworthiness. What is it then that gives me my only hope of salvation? And that is this, that God imputes no sin to me because I believe on Christ.

And it's only doing that that gets me to heaven. I can't begin to make more effort. I can't make myself a better Christian. If I start doing that, I fall into the sin of self-righteousness. We see how narrow the path this is. Let us believe simply of faith and trust in this grace, trust in the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have no choice.

Jeremy Ponga. And then after that, Phil Keranen will ask for another speaking turn. Jeremy, can you raise your hand? I just wanted to

We hear sometimes, you know, talk about works and like confession and that even Luther, my thoughts are so troubled with Luther, even how he's said that it's not by works but alone by Christ.

And I know and believe that God's Kingdom believes that. There's no doubt about that. That is for sure. But sometimes I have wondered if this, when words is tied into this explanation of

That we only believe upon Christ can be confusing to myself and perhaps others as well. The way I have thought during my life of faith is this way on even this matter of confession.

They paid money for their sins to be covered to the Roman Catholic Church and that sort of thing. But that this confession is simply a gift from God that we have heard, and it comes from God himself.

When we walk as a child of God with a tender conscience and the spirit of God is within, then God guides and helps us even in these ways. And so this confession that you or I even feel compelled to make

Heavenly Father, through the spirit that he has given to a traveler in faith, that we can take care of that matter that bothers our conscience. And so, to equate it with the word works is difficult to me.

To understand and even for all the people, the young kids who were here before, who would have wished to be able to share this kind of thought that this is the love of God and the help for all of us and that may it be so that we don't ever have to worry

God and Jesus, we all know they want us to make it to heaven. But we all know that the enemy has one very different goal, that we wouldn't get to heaven.

And forgiveness from us. And he will try forever to do that. And even in this way, perhaps it can become a difficulty.

I don't know whether my caretaking would be of work or not, but I simply want to be able to care for the matters which rest me on this journey, and that I wouldn't have to worry any further, but I can have those sins forgiven. And so in this way, I think at the end

He knows that the forgiveness of sins that the believers have in Jesus Christ, that's power that we have to make it happen. And he knows that very, very well. And so whatever way he can snatch that forgiveness of sins, the gospel of Christ,

I think he will do so. And we know, as the Bible says, that the wages of sin are death. That that is what happens when sin compiles. Death will come. But also we know that life comes through Jesus Christ. Through the forgiveness of sins that we

Each one of us here know in our lifetime and have so enjoyed for all of our years being able to hear and to believe our sins forgiven again and again. And so, dear brother and sister, I hope that it can be so forever in God's kingdom.

We are bringing beer for all my many devils. Do we have Phil Keranen and Jill Marks? So we have five total speaking requests.

I was just kind of thinking there after my comment that Don kind of followed up after me with a good point on the forgiveness. And I guess it's kind of interesting as I was thinking about that that I was referring to more that God forgives us. But then of course we have our questions here on earth. Maybe we offend somebody and

And we want to take care of those matters, or we might have something that comes to us, as it says in the Bible, even if it's 70 times 7, or an infinite number of times, that they want to do the gospel for whatever it may be.

Jesus would instruct us that we would forgive those as often as they ask. So it's kind of interesting that even that forgiveness is a question of is it God forgiving us? That's one thing, but then also our forgiveness here on earth. And then even when somebody comes to us to ask for the gospel, how many times do we forgive them? So it's almost like a three-part question there, but the other thing I would

I hope sometimes when a person speaks up, like I said, it's believed that something comes up and for whatever reason they're meant to say it, but they would never want to come across, is having the answers that even today, tonight, I could believe these things and not forget them. Joe Parksman, Leia Lehtola.

In the very back, Carl. Thank you. I think it's been really nice to hear the discussions. And I think everyone has the same goal in mind. We all want to get into heaven. We all put sin away. And I'm wondering, are we...

Is the confusion somewhere between those continuance, and could continuous compassion be the same as even grace? I know I've heard different examples where I've heard a mother speak in a wife's camp on one wife related how

She got caught up in this. So if you think you have to continually, every sin, we sin continually. Every sin has to be forgiven. We can fall into works where she said she did, she felt she did. She would wake up in the middle of the night, continuously asking forgiveness, forgiveness. Finally, her husband told her,

You have grace. You can have peace in your heart. Our sins are forgiven, you know, continuously. Or even the fear that if we have a fearful thought that we aren't by so and so to forgive our sins, that we won't make it home in time to ask for forgiveness. No, that's where I think the grace is there. So my wonder is this confusion with continuous and

And they are continuously raised the same, one and the same. So yeah, another thought. Well, my other thought was then, I guess I've been a little sad to hear that all of these discussions, which I think these are happening for a reason, why these questions are coming up, and I know there's even times voiced as to why, is it a concern, why these are coming up, but I think it's been,

God has for some reason made this happen because I know I've had many discussions with people and young mothers and young who have told me and I'm guilty of it too. We don't open the Bible. We've never looked at the Bible until now when there's so much discussion about this whole thing. We are forced to.

And then I also heard that there is

Some division. And we all know that women can be catty. There's been women who have said, well, you don't believe her, so I'm not going to hang around with you anymore. Well, they have their own group. That really makes me, makes me really sad. I don't think these discussions should lead to anger. God knows all. God knows all. We want to, we want to discuss these.

In a way of love and forgiveness. And we are brother's keeper. We all have the same goal in mind, to get to heaven. And there the Good Son awaits. Yeah, we may have questions,

We may have different understandings, but that doesn't mean we're not given acceptable and that we can't have our sins forgiven. That we discuss these things and we don't want to put someone on the outside of the kingdom. We are simply man.

God sees into the hearts. God is an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-hearing being. He knows what goes on. We as man cannot read another's heart and go to that extent to say that we're not believing appropriately and start a group of ones that have left others out. In other words, you know, has caused maybe a little division in the current. And that makes me really sad.

On all these matters, I know I've been, you know, a little distressed, and I still have a nice sense of humor. We have a layup left off, and we have three bodyguards.

I have about this forgiveness a little bit. When we think about forgiveness, you know, I think when we start thinking that the work has been done, that everybody's sins are forgiven. Whatever you see walking out there, even that person's sins are forgiven. His work is done and all the thing we need to do is believe. So even that person needs to believe and then...

A person can have his or her sins forgiven. It's a huge thing what Jesus did. And we think that, you know, he died for everybody's sins. So the Lord has done. And when people get confused about continuous forgiveness, it's just means that all the time, when we repent, when we lay the gospel, then we have faith. We have faith that our sins are forgiven.

When God gave us conscience, and that's for our personal faith life, that we can take care of our personal faith life, that we can keep believing, that we don't lose our faith. Our conscience is not for God, it's not, it's for ourselves. That we take care of it, we clean it, that we don't lose our faith. And we have to always remember, the continuous work, I don't think there should be any confusion, because if

If it wasn't here, nobody would make it to heaven, because we would always have some sin that would be there along the way. And maybe the confusion might be, one of the reasons is I have some friends who said they grew up with works righteousness and confession.

Those are the two things that are tough and that every time they sin, they doubt that, okay, they have no faith anymore. So maybe some people have been taught that and maybe haven't realized that actually we have a huge gift, what is that actually our sins are forgiven. We only believe, have faith.

And we can believe just through grace, not words, nothing we can do ourselves, but just because we have grace. And many times when I think these discussions and

The most important thing is that we watch ourselves. Watch our own heart and see, do we have faith? Do I have faith? Do I believe in God? Do I not start looking if those other people have sinned or if those other people aren't believing correctly? But the most important thing, you believe in yourself. You keep good care of your own faith.

Yeah, so when I mentioned continuous forgiveness, you know, there was comments that leading to permissiveness of sins or kind of the thought that, you know, with the concession,

Confession is important to me, and I've been able to use that grace parallel to the past, and I hope I can use it in the future. And also, as a way of opening the door for the permissiveness of sins, I totally didn't intend that to be the case by any means, and that's not the way I believe it.

Um, but I just started to ask what's going on, and I also didn't know what's going on. Thank you. Do you have a prayer for me? Yeah, I was, uh, just thinking, when our, your brother Phil was talking about, about, uh,

I'm concerned about bringing up the questions, and I brought that up earlier, and I wonder where these questions come from, and I certainly don't want to give the impression that I want to restrict asking questions, and I say again that it's the best place to ask questions is in the congregation of God, and that we don't have to be

I'm afraid that we have the wrong understanding that we can be corrected, but I think probably the point that I would like to emphasize in that is that the types of questions that we've been discussing over the last period, to me they don't seem like the types of questions that should be created.

There are many divisions and maybe differences and concerns that we see happening and so I suppose my question is that how do these questions get us to that point where it seems like, like Joni just mentioned, that different groups are being formed

Some of the things you hear that you can't hardly even believe that it's cracked, that a separate groupie has been set up for people who think in a certain way. So that's troubling if the enemy is

Being able to cause these kinds of divisions over questions that seem to be, in many cases, more of a theological way, and that they're questions that if we're endeavoring with the Holy Spirit and the love of the congregation, that we can ask them these kinds of questions.

They don't become quite so envisioned. But I'd also like to say I think it's been good that we're discussing these. I know we had many discussions earlier and for a period of time now we haven't had congregational discussions, but I think it's important that we do discuss these things. Tonight, again, feels like

It's brought this matter out again that it is a narrow way and I think we've heard

We've heard comments from kind of both sides of those questions and we know that either way, either ditch leads to condemnation and we want to be on the narrow way. And if we put emphasis too far one way or the other, we go astray. So may God preserve each of us

On the narrow way of life that none of us would be lost and that men wouldn't be able to do his work and divide us. This is my goal also and I believe for all of you and your goal too. May God grant it so for each of us.

Thank you. Artu, right here. Carl, great to have you here. Artu, then another comment over here. There was that number of items on the list. Contacts to Finland. I was just thinking about that, reading these maids that are out there right now. Except there's certainly some unrest, if you can't remind us, in Finland. The congregation, there's some people that I get a little bit confused with.

There's been a few times that I've been approached with a question or statement that I heard that in Finland, for example, people are accepting birth control now for a couple of years for Christ. I've only lived here for four years, but I don't believe that the way of believing in Finland has changed in the last four years. I would like to encourage everybody that if you hear that guy,

Statements are more or less racing. People in Finland, just like Law Center, they're really just the same way as we do here. It's better to stick to the old ways and try to change, because as far as I know in Finland, for example, birth control is kind of a bad event here in America.

Thank you. Um, just pretty quick, I just wrote the discussion I've been, um, there hasn't been much talk about the congregation and the Holy Spirit guiding the mother congregation, and for me, that has been the biggest comfort, always, that, like, and there's no doubt that the Holy Spirit, which is part of the Triune God, will guide

Confirmation of believers. So no matter what, if there are different opinions about certain things, it will become clear what is the correct way. It's good to read the Bible and it's good to have discussions, but for me, it's the most comforting and maybe easiest, I guess, way

Just to know that I'm traveling on the right ways, just to listen to what the congregation says and not listen to this or that or what this person or that person says or take this part of the Bible verse or that part of the Bible verse and pay too much attention to it. Of course, the Bible is the ultimate authority, but through the congregation, we are hearing God's voice. That is God himself speaking to us, so it's so comforting.

And we don't need to worry about anything else. Thank you. Carly, comment up here. All right, here I am at the mic again. I guess first I just want to say that it has been really good to be here, and there have been so many of the comments that my heart has said amen to.

And I do feel that the Holy Spirit is certainly present here tonight. I have been concerned about some of the things that I've heard, though. Especially, yeah, the bits about, just like the particulars of forgiveness and the comment that Jesus died for all of our sins, therefore everybody's sins are forgiven. Just like the way that that was put seemed a little strange to me.

Because it seems so clear to me that Jesus did die for all of our sins so that we all can have our sins forgiven. But forgiveness only comes through the gospel. And I think someone might have already read this earlier, but I'm just going to read it again from John 20, 23, the words of Jesus from 22 and 23. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained. To me that speaks so clearly that our sins are forgiven when a believer who has been forgiven and the Holy Ghost is present.

But that we can't just go along and think, oh, my sins are forgiven because I'm believing and therefore all of my sins are always forgiven and the gospel of forgiveness is just there to reassure me that my sins are forgiven. I believe that the gospel

Forgives my sins that I have fallen into every time, and that's why I need to hear the gospel so often, because I fall into sin every day. And that's why I need to hear the gospel, not just because it's reassuring, but because that is what is saving me, is that I can leave my sins forgiven over and over again.

Here we have a question or comment in the glass room back there. I just wanted to speak a little bit on the end of this year. I know it's been probably troubling for many of us here in God's Kingdom as we

Not all these doctrinal things. I had a chance, close to 20 years ago, to attend Opestow. I know when these matters started coming about, I even started listening to what the Fennish brothers and

Writings, be it in a sermon or writing what I can say on it. And a lot of the sermons, it seemed like it was just reiterated in all, every, like many of the sermons that when I would speak, I would have a message that would come and talk to me.

I know I personally haven't been able to approach, you know, a sermon that I would agree or disagree with, and it's not an easy time for any of us. But I know that, you know, some maybe have approached and have been told that they're not widely able to approach.

I think it's in the first Epistle of John, Chapter 4, it does talk that there is no fear in love. That we have no fear, that we should be able to ask any question, be it right or wrong. And I know that, what are we supposed to remember each and every night? That except we would become as a little child, that we would not enter therein.

It matters especially on this reunion that's been troubling me when I heard that there has been times that would be spoken of that we would not have reached. I was able to go up to this Bible camp in the fall and I felt that I would like to speak to these brothers from the family.

I was able to discuss with one. He must have thought that he didn't hear me right when I was explaining that. It's been said that there has been talk of when someone would be in heresy that the Holy Spirit would reveal that we would not forgive or that there could be

As I've heard before from brothers within, he said that God's kingdom forgives, and that God sees what kind of soil His forgiveness lands on, and that He would be the one to re-enter her with holy. I know I've met this, also from Luther, I believe,

The [50th] chapter of Genesis even speaks about this, that there are times when God could grant you a withhold, but when Joseph's brothers came to him and wanted to say sorry and ask for forgiveness, that they thought he wouldn't forgive them. But God, but Joseph said that fear not, for I am in the place of God.

So there we know that God came with hope, but it is our command given by Jesus to go and preach and teach. And also at this same discussion with this brother from Penland, he had said they had a speaker's meeting. And I know the topic of drunkenness, we know how much

And that's the way they...

They discussed it, and I know that in my growing up years in America, I decided I always understood it that way. But I know that not everything is always easily understood, but that we would require to have, first and foremost, faith, and that sometimes we fall this way or that way, but in the end, if we believe,

And I know that the 4th, 5th, and 6th chapters of Romans speaks a lot about Comorches. And of course, it doesn't lead us into permissiveness and sin, that we do have that great privilege that, yes, we can put certain matters away when they do trouble us, but that we would first and foremost believe on the merits of Jesus Christ. That is our salvation.

But I also want to ask if I can believe my sins. Hi. Keith, right here.

I have a couple thoughts. My first one was a question somewhere in the presentation. There was something about

The highest authority, I'm not really sure how it was phrased, that's I guess what I'm wondering, was the highest authority not only what's in the Bible, but also the congregation? I was just curious if that's what it was, because I thought that something in the entire congregation can't hear. So I'm just wondering if I misunderstood the way that that was phrased. But I also wanted to add to a couple other comments today.

I was also at Bible Camp at Stony Lake and I thought the presentations were all very nice. I especially enjoyed some of them, the freedom of a Christian. I have felt, even myself personally, that the freedom has been

Sometimes I feel like the freedom has been taken away or tried to be taken away. If someone is told to maybe not speak up in a discussion or maybe you shouldn't ask a question. I've always thought or I've always heard that the best place to ask a question is in church. So when I heard some of those comments

They have troubled me in that I have thought that that's... It doesn't feel right. Another thought is that I know that the wall has been broken because I have seen it. I was so distressed to come home from my camp and hear that people who sat in a certain spot at Stony

We're locked into a group of people who are opposition. I can't tell you how upset that that made me because I had a three-week-old baby and I wanted it to be a huge priority to make arrangements so I could be there at Stony Lake and to come home and hear people making comments about where someone's head. Where's the Christian freedom to go

Are you a better Christian if you're in the front row or the back row or the right side or the left side? That doesn't seem right either. Another thing that has really troubled me is that I hear that it's good to ask questions and to discuss these matters, but I have no listening experience personally that you ask a question

All of a sudden we're treated very differently by some people. And I thought even if there's forgiveness there, it doesn't seem the same. And I thought if we have the Christian love towards one another as brothers and sisters, I think that we would all want to carry each other and not put those barriers there.

My thoughts are so lost because I felt so nervous to speak up, but if anyone is troubled by anything I said, I would want you to come and visit me or ask about what I meant, but I do want to hear the Gospel, please. So,

Katie was the last on our list here. Name here that maybe we'll get close to wrapping things up after. Nice so much. One, two,

And I have so little understanding. But I have had nice visits with Katie and also a couple that were reluctantly distressed. But we, I bet you,

And you and I talked late night camp about the situation, about the differences. We both prayed that Michael would join us together as one.

If there was no denying, if there was differences, you told me, I told you, we were open. There should be a private discussion. And I think if we're truthful, we would say that there was. And I can say this not just because I thought, I had a discussion with Eric also.

Search our hearts. You know, the psalmist, so beautifully, David said, Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me, and know my thoughts. And see if there be any way to weigh in me, and lead me to the way of the Holy Spirit.

We pray that the Lord Jesus will guide our thoughts. He knows the intentions of our heart. Oh, dear brothers and sisters, we have much need to pray. We need to root out those bitterness, anger, thoughts that are within us.

We cannot believe with a bitter heart and have peace. If there is one that feels himself to be sinful here tonight in this room, believe your sins for him. In Jesus' name, amen. Precious one. And I know I have been so faulty in this. The enemy is so

I just wanted to make a comment, but actually I want to ask Brother Jouko. The brother who spoke, I'm not sure who it was because I didn't see, but he spoke about speaking to a Finnish brother concerning the matter of forgiveness and if there's ever a time when he wouldn't forgive.

And Brother Jouko brought that question to the minister's meeting in Finland about maybe a couple of years ago. Jouko, would you care to relate to that?

Yeah, I wanted to hear what the big ministers gathering, over 700 ministers, would say. When I had a chance to be at a ministers meeting in Finland two years ago, Rick Nevala was there on mission trip, and I translated Rick's speaking term to another meaning, and then I asked if the translator could say a few words in the day aloud.

And what I said, as far as I can remember it, is, I guess I even wrote it down, but if you can trust that I tried my best to explain what I said, is that forgiveness of sins is a treasure of God's kingdom. That's the only reason why

It's my joy and it's my joyful duty to preach the forgiveness of sins. And my wish is to be faithful in preaching the forgiveness of sins. That's the core message of this meeting.

And then, now I have a question to you brothers. Could there ever be a situation where the blessing and the forgiveness of sins, meaning absolution is being asked for and it cannot be preached?

And if there can be such a situation, do you have experiences of what kind of situations there have been?

And Rick, being a visiting minister, spoke at the very, very phases of the meeting. So I wanted to give that question to this big meeting that there were many hours of talking. And two things I want to mention about that. First is that nobody said

In public or private discussions, and I had many private discussions, of course, during the breaks with the brothers, that was an odd question, or that was an unhealthy question. Because, to be honest with you, the Bible warns also about questions. It is in 2 Timothy,

Chapter 2, verse 23. And this is not my opinion. This is God's Word. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. Nobody said that that was a foolish question, which I felt, of course, comfortable about. Secondly,

If my memory serves me right, six brothers touched that question or took time to answer to the question and they said, yes, we have been in those situations. And they described how it happened and the main message was that God touched the congregation and then it happened.

So, they said, yes, it's possible, it has happened, and it's very rare, and we hope that we would never have to be in such a situation. And so, I want to say also, I'm glad that Ray asked this question, because

I would not encourage anybody to be so bold as to say that, yes, but I will. I will forgive no matter what happens. We should not be bold in disagreeing with the mutual understanding.

And then I just wanted to follow up that we didn't bring that up, that I want the focus to be on times when we wouldn't preach, because I think that it's the desire of all of us to always preach the gospel. But there are those exceptions, and so we want to focus more on odds of it that we would always preach, but I think that was

I just wanted to say that I didn't in my speech in any way want to give the impression that I don't think questions are to be asked.

What I meant, though, of course, was on the street of death, but more questioning and understanding of what has been and what has not came to pass. It's more about research and being able to be shifted as questions are presented. Once these questions have been answered and explained,

Yeah, it's been really nice to be here and can't deny that there isn't this sense that there's tension.

And it is like it says up there on the rest. And I think of when I'm listening here, what is it that we all have the same obligation to speak? What is that rooted in? And how do we receive that?

It's in the word of God. Most of them we have paid by hearing and by doing the word of God. And to always, always turn to what does God's word say? And there are these questions that come up.

We have a duty to our ministers to listen, to know the word of God, to listen, to let our spirit answer to what is being said. The thought that I can't think of talking to some young people is...

It was very frightening to me. These are young people, and what they hear, and different discussions that we've had, I guess it makes me kind of wonder sometimes that are we, as congregants, working our duty above what is called, what to us means, called a task.

And, I guess, I can't help but say about the continual forgiveness that was here, and I rocked through all the puddles that was here. And, that was the first time I heard that, like somebody mentioned. But the longer I listened, the more I understood what it was, and I thought, I'm free.

I don't need to continually ask for forgiveness for every last thought. I have to have somebody with me, shoulder to shoulder, my entire life. That's not possible. And I see that as a gift, grace, that we can have this continual forgiveness. And like it's been said many, many times, I don't think there's a person in this room that would disagree that we don't want to ask for forgiveness.

But I think it's, it all kind of, when I sit here and listen, I just think, you know, when you shake it all off, what do you get left with? What's the most important thing? Where do we base our faith on? It's the Word of God. I think the importance of that needs to be remembered in all discussions.

And with discussions with people, and you have to go over it, you know, there's been some heated stuff that's happened, and it's really unsettling, and again, that was something that young people said, that it's really, it creates a lot of doubt in their mind when they're told that we should always speak in love, but then when they see and hear otherwise, it really, it's unsettling to them.

So it seems our evening is growing long in the tooth, so to speak, and maybe we can wrap things up a little bit so we can make our exit to our homes.

So maybe right now we'll close with a prayer and a benediction. We'll have a closing song and I just wanted to remember to remind everybody that you can fuel your energy again with a pizza in the kitchen. Need to bring that up. One last time to bring that up, but there's still pizza for sale.

Let's close in prayer. Dear Heavenly Righteous Father, this evening, you have spoken to us. In our lives, we can feel and we have seen the effects of those doubts, those seeds of doubts that have been sown into our lives.

Tonight we wish to thank you, dear Heavenly Father, that you have given us this opportunity here to talk about these matters and to be refreshed and to learn of your love for us.

We know that this faith that you have given us, there is given testimony to us in the 11th chapter of Hebrews that through faith the elders received a good report. Dear brothers and sisters, remain striving for a tender conscience.

That tender voice, and he uplifted a lot of the journey. And of all this tender conscience, and as Jesus tells John in Revelation,

To me that happened here, let me hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. This, dear Heavenly Father, is what we long for is to hear your speech to us, to guide us through the Spirit.

One day at a time. Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you that you have loved us so much that you have given us this opportunity to reach that eternal home. You have given us your dear Son, Jesus. Amen. Amen.

I wish to extend to you that in the Gospel of the Father, that Jesus is brought to our sight. You may believe all sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name. Believe sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name. Believe sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name, precious Lord. Believe sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name. Believe sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name. Believe sins and doubts forgiven in Jesus' name, precious Lord.

This is the gospel that brings us to that heavenly office. We need this gospel to put away the sins of the church, dear brothers and sisters. And this is provided for you through our Father's love. I also to you hear that gospel. May you hear that gospel.

I wish to believe with you, brothers and sisters. Let's all join our hearts and voices into the Lord's benediction. The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord be with us. The Lord be with us. The Lord be with us.

I suppose, just leave it here. I'll come back and go to the bathroom.