Minneapolis and Rockford Boards and Ministers' Meeting, April 24, 2018

Before we get started, we'll sing Song 178.

They've got that figured out.

Russ, can you mute your mic and unmute when you need to speak?

I can do this. Okay, it's on 178, but I'm going to request that we all start.

We've got a couple of chairs. You could use that table right there, Mark and Joe. There's some chairs back there.

There we go.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for the gift of life that we are able to gather together here tonight. You allowed us to walk here on our own feet. You have given us everything that we need for this life. Thank you for everything. Dear Lord Jesus Christ, thank you for carrying our sin, death,

So that we can have hope one day being there in heaven's glory together with you. Dear Holy Spirit, you who are the spirit of comfort, the spirit that guides and spirit of truth, we ask you that you

Who call us together, move our hearts today to speak as we believe and discuss the matters of God's congregation. We're gathered here as ministers and board members and others have come as well and the Holy Spirit, we seek for your guidance and we trust that you will help us.

Dear Father, hear us all when we join together in that prayer that your Son has done.

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever.

As we get started in this evening, I would just want to welcome everyone here. This was a discussion that was set up originally for the Minneapolis and [Rockford] Boards and Ministers.

There's others here, of course, that have come, I assume, to listen, and so I welcome you as well. I've had a lot of thoughts going through my mind here and

One of them is this, that over the last couple years, there's been discussions within our home congregations, within our respective boards, and those discussions have been around doctrinal matters, and there has been, I would say, a growing concern

In southern Minnesota in particular, although I don't know that it's limited to our area, but there seems to be a growing concern that there was, I would say, two different understandings on certain topics, and I think everybody here knows probably what those topics have been, so the intention tonight was not to go through and dissect those again.

But just at a broad level, the concern yet stands that those understandings, I would say, are still different. And so,

Jared and I, over the last couple years, have had conversations in visiting, and so we know that there's, that our home congregations, that those concerns are the same in both. And we haven't had a collaborative discussion with our boards on these topics, but, again, we've discussed them all independently.

We asked Mike to force me to come and moderate the discussion this evening simply for the fact that Jared and I, as chairmen to our respective boards, a lot of times you can't tie

You can't concentrate on your own thoughts as easy when you're trying to understand somebody else's thoughts and what you're really concerned about keeping the flow of the meeting. And so our desire was to be more participants in the meeting. We asked Mike, as somebody who is, I would say,

I'm very much accustomed to chairing such meetings, being the chairman of the Cokato congregation, and also I think maybe a benefit of perhaps not being involved so much on the discussions that we've had on our wards the last couple of years.

And so it was with that thought on what the intention was to pull this group together and do it about these matters, we asked Eric Jurmu to kind of summarize a couple of items that we wanted to focus on tonight. One of them is

The fruits of unity, and what is it, and more particularly, unity on a board. What does that look like? What does that feel like? And then secondly, being our brother's keeper, again, this is in a context of

When there are matters that come up within a board and a congregation, there's a certain amount of congregation members that are very timid to approach one that maybe they have concern over. And so oftentimes they'll approach a board member and they'll say, I'm concerned about this person. And in the cases that I'm aware of,

The discussion is always encouraging that person to visit with that person they have concern over. I think that's the right instruction, but

It is really hard for people to do that and so we wanted to have a discussion on what is the right way to care for each other in that context when somebody from our congregation approaches and they're really concerned about the faith life of whether it's a minister, whether it's a board member, whether it's another congregation member.

So we wanted to visit about that topic and this other thought I had was you know there's there's many of you here from outside the board and I do say welcome

Know this, however, that there's times at board meetings where it's really hard to get your thoughts outlined clearly and stumble on our own words, and we have faulty words that come out.

I would say in the last year there's been multiple times where I, as a board member of Rockford, have been contacted by somebody outside of our own congregation even, asking about things that have been discussed on our board. And when those things happen, it stifles the freedom of the board to discuss because it brings fear to those that are students.

And so, just know that your presence here is impacting that to some degree as much as we want to have that freedom. And I would encourage everybody to speak what's on their minds, speak their hearts, and have that freedom regardless. That's the way it should be. This should all be discussed in the light of God's congregation and his word. So, I guess,

With that, I'm going to ask Jared if he can... I'm going to ask Jared if he had anything to add or... No, this is just a welcome everybody. Thanks for being here.

We're living in a different time than we have lived before. It's troubling to miss the triumph of the work of John King when he was the president. And this evening has a fair match with it.

It's good, we couldn't do it without the role of the board. I'll do what others have been called to serve. The congregation has asked me to serve. They've elected me to serve. They saw that there were gifts that we want for service. And you yourselves, and I know myself personally,

You don't feel like this is something that you can raise your hand for and fall in fear for because obedience is wanted to serve in that college that the congregation is called to.

Different kinds of living on the other hand. And may God heal you and your brothers. Freedom, peace, to speak what is in your heart. And we feel the winds of division. We feel the winds of doctrine rolling against the house of God.

So your brother's in Korea. Did I say that? I mentioned it a different time. I've never had to deal with this kind of situation. Many doubts and worries.

I hope the biggest part of this evening was a discussion, but I thought it would be convenient to ask if I would put a few thoughts together on the title of this role in terms of the board and the congregation. The House of Kingdom has been left here.

The view of the place. The saving ark that God has left for us. The kingdom of grace and forgiveness. And there's much work to do in God's kingdom.

We've seen in recent years a lot of work that's being done at AMP centers. The young people that God has blessed into our care, our nations are growing. Additional work and additional work forms.

We rely a lot on the direction that the Holy Spirit offers to the congregation. After all, this is God's kingdom, this is his congregation. And when Jesus, in his parable and sermon, to his disciples was preaching, Mary, in the 13th and 14th verse of the 16th chapter of John, he talks about how when the spirit of truth comes,

So be it when he, the spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak. And he will show you things to come, he shall glorify me, for he shall conceive of mine, and he shall shew it out to you.

This Holy Spirit that dwells in God's kingdom is that which calls, gathers, enlightens. And this is the beauty of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't divide. It calls. We feel and hear that voice in the congregation and how it's sustained by faithfulness. The Holy Spirit unites the children of God into one family of God.

And into this congregation, God has called service. God may have served through the word. We also have board members that are called into this area of service. Remember when Jesus looked out and he saw the fields were ripe with harvest, he prayed.

And he told us to pray, we also have the Lord of the Harvest, that he would send workers into the vineyard. This is our prayer also, and it's been the prayer of the congregation, of the Lutheran congregation, is sovereign needs, necessity of the congregation. If all of you give rubbish, it is very absurd. We also know that in God's kingdom, it's a kingdom of many different gifts.

Not one person owns all gifts. In fact, we are only given that little portion that God wants us and has given us.

It's not your own choosing or your own calling. You have a past that you would be given uncertain gifts, but yet God in his wisdom has found a fit that would bless you accordingly.

When the congregation then looks at the work that's before us in the congregation, we know what we need. There's evidence, Sunday school teachers, middle class teachers, and so on. We also need board members and speakers. And Paul, in the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians, speaks about those different gifts, those different spiritual gifts, about how each of them made up the body of Christ.

Now ye are the body of Christ, the members in particular. And God has set some in the church. First, apostles, second, heirs of prophets, third, the teachers. After that, miracles and gifts of healing, helps, governance, diversions, and promise.

No one has been called in the service of God's kingdom, no matter what it is, to serve his Lord in that place of service. The world has a different view of that.

I was visiting this weekend with one of those people that came to the services, a very nice lady that was there. I thought they were there visiting with the mayor. I was waiting. I thought, who is she? Who is she?

And so, anyway, after we were done visiting, she told a number of the ladies there that she got to talk with the bigwigs. And so, forward to the service of God's kingdom.

And also, as Paul writes, he has set some, not everybody.

And this isn't always really God's will. I had a confirmation class I was teaching in Phoenix some years ago, and it was during that time when the woman priesthood issue was kind of odd and heavy and fiddly, and this discussion was taking place all around me, and this confirmation student asked it, why can't I be a minister? And I said, why can't I be a mother?

That's what God's Word allows. God has set some. So, there's the same question about Moses.

Moses was called to be there to serve. He served Israel, and Moses was a faithful servant. But he was also warned that he couldn't do all the work himself, so he needed to call additional helpers. It was written in the book of Exodus, God shall surely wear away both thou and his people that are with thee, for this thing is too heavy for thee.

Thou art not able to perform it thyself alone. Moreover, thou shalt provide unto the people, able men, such as hear God, men of truth, able to vengeance and place such over them, to be rulers. So, dear brothers, we are here this evening. I know in these recent years,

This work has become heavy. It hasn't been the same freedom, the same joy that we experienced in previous years.

Your own faith comes into question. Your own understanding comes into question. And your brothers and me feel, because of your own corruption, your own sinfulness, sometimes even those kinds of questions or accusations, they get postponed because you know your own rest and your own sinfulness. But your brothers this evening, each of you,

Even in this place of watching the work for a few hours to believe, it seems to be given to us in the presence of one God. That gospel is the source of your strength, it's the source of our strength as we work together. And as Paul appealed to those communities, this kind of relationship that was between old man Paul and young co-worker Timothy,

And he spoke to him like a father would speak to his son, in many ways encouraging this young, doubting worker in the work. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, and shalt be able to teach others also. This is a responsibility that has been entrusted to the service of God.

The attitudes and observance, first of all, is required. Moreover, it is required to steward and manage the consultation. If you have been

Called by the congregation to work and serve through God's kingdom, the first order of business, of course, and the first requirement would be this, that there is a testimony and that the congregation agrees and hopes that you would be able to serve faithfully and give to God in this field.

And we are to be, we are to serve with those gifts that God gives. And Peter writes that we do it as a mobility which God gives. I thought in God's kingdom, the workers are most often the leaders. You know, when you think of those brothers that we called to serve three years ago,

Many of them had very glaring outward weaknesses. Moses, their stammering was slow to speech, so he can't serve because of this, but God gave him health and bearing. Also Paul, he wasn't pleasant to look at. I don't know why. Perhaps a part of his disfiguration had happened when he was on the road to Damascus, I don't know.

Luther, very crass and very short and very abrupt, misogynistic thing. Even in our day,

When I think back to my days of working with these dear brothers, God has also, with every gift, given also a temporary part that wouldn't allow a man to start to follow a man. And I think we can rejoice that God has slept on these kinds of glaring weaknesses. My dear brothers that have departed, and I can name many of them,

There are those kinds of things that we remember, folks loving, but also they weren't most easily developed. God put the spirit answers into work. But God has allowed even in our day

That he has knowledge with the most glamorous and appropriate in our mind person to serve. The congregation would ask. So may it be that you and I could do with the ability that God has given us. And then, also in this, when we serve on the board together, we're in the work of the kingdom. We're not in competition with each other. Not at all.

But yet our flesh is close, and we would like to push somebody else's gifts down so that ours would be elevated again. All we are is people. Kind of a difference. Honor is close. False honor. Glory. All close. We carry this to keep our flesh.

But yet God knows that and gives strength in battle against those kinds of temptations that we feel. Even the disciples face similarly those kinds of arguments and discussions among themselves as to who is the greatest.

What did God do for the disciples? He took the child in his arms and said, now this is the greatest. There's a reason why God called the child the greatest and what came of it. So may we be also thankful for the gifts that God has given. I'm so thankful to be here about it, but I'm sure that your gifts that help me also remain indebted.

So the role of the board, selected by God. We think it's just that the congregation selected us, but yet the congregation, these discussions are directed by God through the power of the Holy Spirit. And when we serve on the board, the spiritual unity refers to the board, but also the congregation is the first to serve. It also follows the congregation ethicists.

And we would endeavor to keep the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. This is the foremost goal of all of our work. Secondly, there would also be this necessity to take care of practical matters, such as our schedule, finances, etc. But those are secondary to this first part, which is spiritual nature.

And then also, when we think of the workers that God has given us to serve and serve us, that we would respect them, not respect a man, but rather for the office in which we've been called. Paul writes, and we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you, to esteem them very highly in love, for their work's sake,

And be at peace among yourselves. Also, it's important that we remember that the board is not separate from the congregation. The board is a part of the congregation. You're a congregation member, or you can call us through on this board. And the board is not above or separate, but a part of. And as there was this kind of

Writing that Paul had in the 12th chapter of Corinthians as well that, I not stand for hand, I have no need of thee, nor again head to the feet, I have no need of you, nay, much more those numbers of the body that seem to be more feeble are. So it's important that we support and work together. Now, this area of this communication among the board.

There's this importance of unity at the table. How can you expect to serve if there is unity? How can you make decisions if there is unity? The work of God's kingdom slows way down when unity is divided or broken. The openness among the board is vital.

We need to have that freedom amongst ourselves, as Jer mentioned in the beginning, to speak openly and freely. And we know each other in heart. We've worked with each other. We have opportunity to visit, discuss back and forth. And we don't have to worry that among us there will be someone that will hold us accountable for our words.

If all of our weak words were held against us, nobody would serve God's kingdom. So it's important that we really serve with those gifts that each of you have been given. Every voice is important. Where one lacks, the other feels. I've experienced this so many times in my life, serving on different boards and different congregations.

We also know that it's a very sensitive thing when you start talking about spiritual discussions among the board. They need to stay there. And unfortunately, as Jim mentioned in our day, they have to. If they don't stay there, then people start to discuss these things in ways that there's really no foundation for discussing. They don't have a context with which things and how things are discussed.

There are times that you can share with your wives or your loved ones about generalities at board meetings, but as the older brothers have spoken, it's so important that until those things are clarified entirely, entirely along the board, that they need to stay there along the board until those things are ironed out.

If it starts this way, that one starts to pull one way or the other, then it creates additional loss of trust.

We've seen that with recordings and meetings. People have recorded meetings. To me, when it starts that way, what is the reason why someone needs to record something? I don't understand. We have a freedom to discuss these things one-on-one. There's no reason why you think you have to be recorded. When they're recorded, it breaks trust between the brothers. The loan is broken, and the work then becomes stagnant.

And so this trust that is between our board members and speakers, it is maintained over this. And the unity is maintained with common understanding. And when trust erodes, then the unity also disappears. So I want to be careful these things.

The first group is really slow. One brother has recently said, when he's talked about the conflicts and discussions that we're having, just as it was when I was a young man, I asked, how would I know where the truth is in the time of the last years? His father said that when he heard and visited some of his children, that underneath the surface was anger and bitterness.

It's not a true of faith. He was father. He said, this is now showing them that where the right way is. When there were those who left in the last heresy,

I remember my own parents, loved ones, lamenting and crying for their lost souls. On the other hand, there were those who were bitter and angry that they would pick out a dustbin. It never happened to anyone to pick out a dustbin. They picked it up because it was safe.

So, to maintain this love, let nothing be done. We strive for vain glory, for the boldness of mind, and let each esteem the other to better himself. And we also put the best instruction on action. And also, we're adhering to these things. We put a very good instruction back in the day when I was growing up here.

They care for those things as far as they're affected and put them away under the blood of Christ. We give them in the name of the precious blood of Jesus. We speak of them in that way. In that way, you're God. These difficulties that we have do not go away just because we want them to. They're only when they're buried under the blood of Christ.

In the fourth chapter of Ephesians, until we all come in unity of faith and with the knowledge of the Son of God, the perfect man, as we measure the stature of the fullness of Christ,

That we henceforth no more children tossed to or fro, buried about every limb of doctrine, by the slight of men, and cunning craftiness were by a lion enclave to the sea. But speaking the truth in love, they grow up like him in all things, which is the head of Jesus. So those were a few thoughts that I had in regards to

Now, I thought that I would mention only a few things. I thought it would be important also to share with the boards here the results of last week's minister's camp a few weeks ago. The last weekend or something like that, two weekends ago, just over a week ago.

When I thought of this part of Christmas, where Paul, he heard from the hosts of Poland that there were divisions among the children of God there in Jerusalem. It's no different today. There are divisions among God's kingdom.

And as Paul writes, Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no division among you, that they be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are out of the house of glory, and their contentions. Amen.

Last week in this camp we talked about these

Discussions of our time. Forgiveness. All that's gone from the pre-given areas of the page of the kingdom. How does the person receive the forgiveness he sends? Is there forgiveness through the sacraments? Grace versus continual forgiveness? Discussions have been around the robe of righteousness, doctrine of justification, watchmen [on the walls of Zion].

And as Jim mentioned at the beginning, these are all part of the discussions that we've been involved in. Other topics as well that have been met, except with the children and birth control, self-righteousness, law-mindedness, the office of the Holy Spirit, and so on, are like you guys. Dear brothers,

I've spoken to doctors, it's going very hard on me. I've received fish bags and feathers, and it could be that I'm wrong. It depends on how much you need. I've spoken, that's all I can do is speak up about how I believe. If you dare or somebody to mention that, there's two different understandings. I don't personally believe this.

I believe it's more than that. There's two different understandings. These understandings would be discussed. Resolution would be done, we'd come to a resolution, and we would let it as it is. That's how it happens. It's always happened to me. It's always happened that way with me and my wife. There's different ideas, different understandings.

I spoke there and adopted that, I think it's more than this, I think there's two different spirits.

The reason I say that is because these issues, they don't go away, but they come up in another way. They come up, if we were to take the timeline from when these things started two, three years ago to now, we can see that these things are brought up, discussed, become disclosed, and understand that they don't come as one.

A spirit, a wrong spirit pushes against the Holy Spirit. The wrong spirit divides. And this is what's happening. The congregations are being divided. Families are being divided. Young people

Are choosing sides of who they follow. This speaker or that speaker. I've heard this for a long years. I've heard people say, I follow this speaker, and some say I follow this. This isn't God's kingdom. This isn't the spirit of God's kingdom because of this.

God's Holy Spirit calls, gathers, ignites in one. Not different, but in one. And that's why I said, as I mentioned, I could be totally out of date, but I don't think either that these questions that are there now, are realistic. I think this is the problem. There's symptoms of the problem, like this.

I think the problem is something else. What is it? I don't know. But I'm worried. I'm very worried. Because I see the potential where souls are going to be lost. There are those who are battling against God's hand. I don't know how long God has been patient.

With this moment, the weak title of God is burdened with trouble and starts to be wandered away from God's community. Then I think God will put these questions to an end. There have been those who approach ministers and community and they push away, push back.

There hasn't been always this kind of humility when someone has come with questions and concerns. We'd rather plan this place elsewhere. My question, if you would receive a discussion, I think would be better. We could freely discuss all of these points that we've discussed over and over the last couple of years.

What is causing this? What is the reason? How is the end of your soul using these to provide God's peace? So what is the underlying reason? Questions?

And I have an answer for you. I know the good ones and the bad ones and the ones in between are troubles. Grandfathers, great ones, that are nearing the shore of heaven want us to make it happen. They're wondering if they're making it. Troubles. Troubles. We've got to be clear in our thoughts about that. Feel free.

People who may speak or be named and may be walking, we pray that the brothers and sisters will help and care for you for a life that you care and help for the rest of your life. Even again, if you are in some sort of blackness, I'm scared of your blackness.

Okay, thank you, Eric. So like Jay mentioned, I was asked to moderate the discussion here this evening.

I guess my understanding of this meeting was that it was the Minneapolis and Rockford Board of Speakers that were asked to gather here to discuss some of these difficult questions, and I didn't quite anticipate that there would be so many others gathered here, also that our board members are speakers, and I guess I would ask this question of the board members and speakers that are gathered here. I know there's been some concern that we've heard tonight that

When we're discussing some of these matters, and these are some pretty serious matters we're discussing this evening, and is everybody comfortable and free and open to discuss what's on their heart and mind and soul with everybody that's gathered here? If that was one question I would ask.

And also I would ask those that are gathered here, that aren't board members and speakers, that maybe if we can understand why you're here, what are the questions, what are the concerns, so that they can help us too. And it's my hope and my prayers of everybody that's gathered here that we all have that same goal, that we want to help each other get to heaven.

That God's kingdom is one spirit, one kingdom. God's kingdom unites. It doesn't divide. And with Eric's presentation and some of those matters that have been brought forth, these are serious matters, dear brothers and sisters. It's great concern. So, I'm worried greatly, I would say.

So at this time I'll open the floor and I have a pen and paper and I would write your name but maybe before I open the floor I don't know if I could ask those that are gathered here if they could give us some insight or some thoughts. Could we ask everyone to say their names so that Russell knows? Dennis Johnson from Minneapolis.

I've been aware of these issues that Eric brought up and I really appreciate that we're all here and that you came from Cokato.

I've thought about some of these issues and there was a heresy dating back 90 years called the small firstborn. They go with the name of the Apostolic Federation and I'm very happy that Keith was able to help Peter with Peter Nevala's book.

And some of the doctrinal errors of that heresy are listed in Peter's book. So some of them are the third use of the law. A believer, the law belongs to a believer for good works. Place truth before grace. Place confession before faith.

I believe that the office of preaching is the office of the word. And there's other...

Doctrinal heirs of other heresies dating back to the New Awakening heresy. There's the large firstborn. And I don't want to go through all these doctrinal heirs, but I think it's really a great joy that we're all together here. We want to help each other. And anyone that believes that you're saved through confession and not faith, you know, they're probably following this small firstborn

Understanding the doctrine because we're saved by faith alone through grace and all these other things like we're doing now even today support our faith. You know, confession, if I offend one of you, I want you to come to me or me to go to you and take care of the matters.

You know, all these things we could go through and, you know, I could confess how I believe off of all those things on the screen. I could freely confess how I believe on all those things. But it would be really good to buy the book, Peter Nevala's book, and do a little research because

Unfortunately, we would have hundreds of thousands of preciously believing men and women in America if those heresies wouldn't have happened a hundred plus years ago. And that's why we're gathered here. Nobody's here to, like, I would prefer not to be here, but I thought you did. This involves undying souls. Keith, you know, he's a part of Minneapolis, you know.

All of us, we're all one happy family. So I think that what happened for me is some of the characteristics of heresy of 90 years ago, or even beyond that, started to bubble up. For me, I thought that, gee whiz, that if somebody believes that they're

I guess not heaven acceptable throughout the day, but then at night they become heaven acceptable through a blessing or whatever. I don't want to take up any more time, but I just felt that's the reason why I came is because of this dear special reason, caring for each other,

We were going to have supposedly a congregational discussion in Minneapolis within two weeks of our annual meeting, and the board decided to push it off, you know, a month and a half or so or better. And so I was a little disappointed because we did have to have a continuation of the meeting, congregational discussion about spiritual matters,

So that's why I'm here now, is just thinking that, gee, look, this is great, we have more

People here, people in the ministry, board members, what a great joy. Everybody should freely say how they believe, and if somebody lives of a doctrine of a heresy some years ago, they can be freed from that. They don't have to live in that wrong doctrine. If somebody feels that I'm living of a wrong doctrine, give me a call.

I always carry the soul. I'm not trying to be goofy at all. I'm very sober. Thank you very much. One question for you. Do you feel that there's this kind of spirit working now? I think that from the beginning of Cain and Abel... No, right now. I think that there's...

I think there are some that maybe are struggling with, like it's really difficult for me to say that there's two, I believe there's a spiritual world, and I believe that all of us battle against

The devil, Lucifer, Satan, all the time. So for me to say that in God's kingdom, it's like pure. I believe that the congregation, as the kingdom, as the Bible says, the kingdom of God is likened unto ten virgins. Five are foolish, five are wise. The kingdom of God is likened unto a net.

Some of the fish are rotten, some of them are good fish. On the last day, they'll be separated. So we want two will be in the field, one will be taken, one will be left.

Two in the bed, one will be taken, one will be left. So that's my belief that I believe all of us are preciously believing. And that's not for me to look into your soul, and if you have characteristics, for instance, of Doubting Thomas, where you are plagued with the joy of believing that, you know, you're heaven acceptable, I view that as your tribe. You know, and I pray for you that you could feel

The peace of Christ in your heart. And everyone here would feel the peace of Jesus Christ because, as the Bible says, he in you and you in him. And if you don't believe that, then it's really a burden. It's a trial. But somebody else might have some other trial in their life. But we all have our different trials.

So I cannot, I cannot say, I will say this, there's always, the Bible says there's heresy amongst you.

After a heresy, that seed of heresy never leaves God's kingdom. If somebody thinks that God's kingdom is free, there are no tears in God's kingdom, I don't believe the way they believe because I believe the Bible and the entire Bible. But I am not to look to say that somebody here is a tear and need to root out that tear. That's not for me to do.

For the thing for you men in the ministry is to preach Jesus Christ, follow Jesus, and anyone that's following man is following idolatry of men, not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, him alone, will save you, not the men in this room or the women. That's how I believe and, you know, can I say there's, I can say there's, there's a,

That's why we're here. I wouldn't be here if there wasn't some issues. Yeah, speak with the concerns of what issues you are, please. That's the only way we'll ever get to the root of this. Yeah, so I encourage, I think some, you know,

Jouko, do you believe that you fall in and out of faith? I'll ask you, because I've listened to your sermons, and I don't want to put anyone on the spot, and you don't have to, you know, answer, but this, we're all in this one happy family, right? I do, this is my home here. So I ask you that, do you fall in and out of faith throughout the day, or do you believe? Okay, I'm happy to hear that.

So I think, you know, Jeremy, three years ago preached that a heretic needs to repent of heresy. And I just think that there's unbelievers and there's Christians, and I don't know if he still believes that, encourages people that, you know, so there's been some issues, this, of that, do we, are we watching, are we going to filter, are we going to analyze? So that's where that truth before grace, if you put truth, if you put

Righteousness of life before righteousness of faith. Then you start to play the gatekeeper into God's kingdom. You throw the seed on all types of soil, and if the seed falls on soil, that the heart is soft.

And it desires Christ. It flourishes. If it doesn't, it dies away. It's not, as the Bible says, we all know this, the Bible says, it's not he that soweth that also watereth. No. So we know that if it falls on, if somebody's seeking Christ and you preach the gospel,

If they don't receive the gift, we have sorrow that they didn't receive the gift. There's not air in me preaching forgiveness of sins to somebody who's asking for forgiveness of sins. But some of these former heresies, those spirits of true penitence,

Analyzing the seeking one before preaching, you can study that in Peter and Evelyn's book. It's available. I'm sure it's still available. I can send you pages, copies if you need. But that's why we're here. Do you feel that's still an issue today? I don't know. I asked Jeremy. Jeremy, do you believe that, that you can't freely preach the gospel?

I'm not entirely sure if Dennis was asking, but if you're wondering whether or not I believe that God, through His Holy Spirit, can, in fact, cause His children

To not preach the gospel at his will. I don't believe that. I don't have a big understanding of it. I'm sure I can't share any understanding that would make anyone who feels otherwise to

To believe that, but I believe that God has given unto his own that power to remit and to retain, and it's by and through the Holy Spirit. And I want to put simple trust in the power of God's Holy Spirit.

I'll confess how I believe on that. If I preach the gospel to somebody and they don't receive the blessing, they're bound in their own sin. Now, if God closes my mouth,

I have sorrow that that happened to me. And who am I to say that God would never close my mouth? I agree that that could happen. That would never be my wish. I would never consider not preaching forgiveness to anyone in this room or anyone on the face of this earth. Now, as the Church Law of Christ says,

Somebody goes before the congregation and the congregation rebukes them and they don't receive the forgiveness, they're bound in their own sin. It's not for me to not preach, for me to look into somebody's heart and say whether or not the soil is appropriate for the seed that I'm going to put forth. Unbelievers are bound in their own sin. Somebody that lives a wrong doctrine, they're bound in their own sin.

Jesus Christ has been heard in our congregations and those that live of wrong doctrine are living in their own wrong doctrine. And over time, they're bound in their own sin if they're not free from their wrong doctrine. And anyone can freely call me and ask me how I believe. I can only benefit

Because if I'm wrong, I get corrected. And if I'm not wrong, I help somebody else. How can I err? We believers should have no ego, no pride. But many lose the gift of faith through pride. I firmly believe that. Pride is close to all of us. Isn't it, Eric? I love you as a dear brother, and you said that very thing. You're open and free about it, and I respect that.

You know, and if you have concern for somebody, you should know what the concern is. I am pointing out Jouko, and I'm pointing out Jeremy, because I've had those spots, and we're all one big family. We should be able to freely speak.

You know, and maybe I just, you know, time for me to sit down, but, you know. I want to speak up while I'm here. So, what am I right now, 45? So, I'm probably, you know, roughly my upper 30s from that age, I have the same sermon speech.

And then I started to hear sermons and feasts about withholding forgiveness and examples of forgiveness, like in this situation or that, you would preach forgiveness. So then it just feels like from there, another issue would come up. What was it? I can't think of all the issues right now, but watching the laws of Zion and all the righteousness.

What has concerned me a lot is there's a lot of talk and rumors going around and I'm simply here to listen and try to help myself in my own way. I'm not here to go and talk to other people and I want to know what happened at the board meeting. They don't even know I'm here. I'm here for my own personal sake.

I'm going to be discreet. I'm just going to say why I'm here. Last, it must have been last fall, one of the Altamir board members was asking me, he said, what's going on in Minneapolis? They're in trouble with the board. They're supposed to be praying for the board. I'm not on the board. I said, I don't know. Then, of course, we had a, well, okay, I'm not going to, we're in the other town for May 6th.

Our meeting in Minneapolis, unfortunately. So it's best to come and hear for yourself. So I want to come here for myself. And of course, there's concerts in Minneapolis. Half our ministers yesterday in the fall. We probably had four board members meet. Seems like...

There's just trouble. I mean, I don't know if we can't handle it. They just, they move on from different congregations. And we have, we've had such a big turnover of board members. And there's trouble in Minneapolis. And it would be, I pray that this be resolved. So, and I'm just here to, I'm here to listen for myself. And I pray that

You know, I don't want to talk Harrison. I would pray that this would be resolved because, you know, I lived for a Harrison with her family and very sad. Thank you. Any other thoughts?

I guess for me I just feel like I hear so much and I don't know what's true and what's not and for me I fall into bad thoughts, just hearsay. So I kind of was hesitant to come tonight. I talked to my dad and he encouraged me that it is open for

Anybody to be able to draw. And so I just feel like I want to get a better understanding of, you know, if the way I believe does seem correct, then I would correct it. And I would see the correct way. I don't know. I don't know. Ben Raisanen, I was just concerned recently about wondering about how I believe

And I visited a few ministers in my home congregation. And it seemed like it was interesting to get different, I guess not beliefs, but opinions on questions that I had. And then I was told by, I guess one of the brothers, which is

LLC board member that there was a meeting here tonight that was going to be a caretaking meeting for John Lehtola and that he was in the right belief and I thought that I believe the same way that he does or at least I think I do so I just wanted to come here and

Listen to what those different understandings were to see exactly where I am in my faith. I guess you could say concerned. I'm one of those little ones. I have no idea.

Thanks, Ben. I know I can quick speak to, you know, you did mention John's name specifically in the caretakers meeting. When I was asked to chair this meeting, that was, I guess, I wasn't aware of that, being on the agenda. And I know Jeremy had sent out an agenda to the Minneapolis Board and the Rockford Board.

I think that kind of the, I guess the agenda for these items, you know, that Eric has spoken, who is the unity, being a sealed vessel, maintaining openness and freedom in God's kingdom, and being our brother's keeper, how do we care for some of these sensitive concerns that are brought forth?

So, I mean, I guess I can answer that question, you know, that it wasn't, like, this is going to be a [caretaking] meeting for John. Thank you. Go ahead, I don't know your name. Joan Marks from New Hampshire? Yeah. Okay, so while I'm here, I'm just, yeah, I'm wondering, too, what's causing this?

This whole problem, I hear that many ministers saying things about John. And even after the ministers meeting, there was many emails sent out or messages to families that two did not take care of their matters, everyone else did. Okay, so I feel like there's a lot of watchfulness

Perhaps, maybe amongst the ministry, or I believe, I believe so. Okay, so I'm going to address, Eric, you had a very nice presentation. I think it would be very good if people were doers, ministers were doers of what he just spoke. It was very nice.

We talked about recording. I know there has been recording, but it's because of untruthfulness. There have been several speakers or members who have been very untruthful and have come out before the congregation. I don't understand why that happens.

I have never heard any spiritual, but I have heard of naughtiness. There has been a lot of meanness towards John and Janelle. Those are the issues that have come out from our board members, and I have just heard of this within the last six months. There's been terrible things happening, so I have started attending board meetings to find out what in the world, what goes on, why does this happen in God's kingdom? This should never happen. There should be love and forgiveness. This is not happening.

I feel like there's a lot of anger within all of the ministers.

It comes out, and it comes out very clearly in a lot of the sermons, this anger, this bitterness, this watchfulness. One thing I have a really hard time with is I've heard from several of the brothers that we do not need to have theological discussions. Okay, so I looked up theology. Theology. Theology is the Greek word for God. Theology is the Greek word for word. So we are not to have discussions around God's word.

I listened to a sermon today from Yohannes' sermon, and he spoke of how years ago we had many discussions around God's word. He was questioning this, why not today? Well, my answer would be that we hear so many sermons that we are not to discuss as theological discussions that even

People in congregations that you want to visit with other congregation members, they head the earth right away and immediately say, we want to have a theological discussion. And God's kingdom is not wrong. I remember my mother talking about the best times in her life growing up was when they got together for days on end and they discussed God's word.

We need to know God's word. It's very important. I've heard sermons where picking up the Bible, reading the Bible, can be dangerous. But yet in the next breath, this individual will correct or say, but no, we need the Bible. But why is that double message sent out? The double message I've heard in another sermon of continual forgiveness gives me so much

I don't know what. Concerned, but yet we are children of grace. Continual forgiveness is living in grace every moment of your life. And it is not a wrong doctrine. I know that has come from SRK. It is not a wrong doctrine. I think there has been this deceitfulness and this, I hope you know, remember, we all know God is an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-hearing.

Another thing I have a problem with, ministers speaking of heresy. I've always thought that is turning the waters and is causing division. I believe it's not correct to speak of heresy. We would rather, I don't feel like there's anything solved, like Florence, you know, brought out families that sweat. Sometimes husband and wife, children, it's sad. There's much bitterness. I would rather see these issues resolved instead of

Speaking of heresies and wanting heresies, I don't know if there's one thing that's just, I'm wondering why there's so much talk of it. We have some more. Oh, then I think Eric, you brought this up or wrote down.

How about the doctrinal issues? There have been many doctrinal issues that have come about. Watchmen on the Walls, Robe of Righteousness, Withholding of Forgiveness,

And I believe I have heard that SRK and SFC were here and you guys discussed these things and came to the right understanding. But this clarification has never come to the congregation. Never. Not to Minneapolis. We have never been clarified these understandings. So that's where the confusion lies is because this did not come out.

I know recently I was in a discussion where the Dear Brother was present, the Continued Forgiveness came up, the people were very adamant that it was wrong. I explained that it's Juhani Uljas, that it's Elisabeth Grace, Elisabeth Grace, every moment. And the Dear Brother did not open his mouth, refused to answer that question. That's where confusion starts.

People listen to the speaker brothers say, but if you don't clarify these issues, nobody's going to believe me, what I say. I'm just another person. But that's how I understand it, and I know now that it's not a wrong understanding. Also, I believe we have temptations, long-suffering, and love. Love and forgiveness for the brothers. We hear this in sermons, but I feel like

Unfortunately, this is not carried out. We are not doers. Their speakers will be doers, but we are not doers either. And I want to say, I'm here to figure out what's, hear what everybody has to say and what is the big, what is, I think a lot of us are wondering what is the issue with John Lehtola. And maybe Keith can answer. I mean, I've heard, I've heard,

Where there's been brothers who have said where there's smoke, there's fire. I'm wondering who started the fire. The fire has spread like wildfire. There's a lot of anger and hatred toward his brother. He has read anonymous emails just recently, I've heard this. If you have a question, John is happy to answer, I'm sure. Correct you now?

I'm sure he's happy to answer these questions, but these questions don't come to him. They're coming through anonymous emails. They're coming to you, brothers, and you boys don't speak about this. It just turns around and turns around, and nothing comes of it. I'm so confused as to why, what is the reason behind this? Why is the brother not treated in love and forgiveness? God is love.

We should have love in our hearts for our brothers and sisters. I feel that's not happening. I could be correct, but we can press on that, but I know I have become very impatient in all these issues and

Yeah, that's why I'm here to kind of throw out what is going on. And I know we all want to, we all have that same goal to make it to heaven one day. And I would like to also hear the gospel from as many black people as we can.

Anne Parks, Minneapolis. I guess when I heard about the meeting between Rockford and Minneapolis, there was the agenda that I heard and then

So I'd like to go back to that because I thought this was supposed to illuminate perhaps Rockford helping us, illuminate what are the issues, how could you help us in Minneapolis, so to speak. So I'd like to kind of go that route if we could. But I think back to

Following a little over a year ago, there was a question box that was put out for congregation members to put in questions that they have, whatever it is about, to put those in the question box. And I know that there were at least two questions that were never ever brought up to the congregation when we met as a congregation.

Those, for some reason, the questions were never read or posted, and I guess immediately, just the fact that I knew of these two questions and they were not addressed, I wondered why there's such secrecy.

But it doesn't bode well for the congregation members to feel that way. But going back to the question that was put into the box is, so we had Ken Hoffla who resigned from the board.

Under that, it was a question, why is this happening? What is happening at the board if someone would feel that they have to resign from that position? And what is happening? Is there freedom as there ought to be? And is there love? Love is what unifies us as believers. And if that love is missing, that's why we don't have unity.

And that love is so important. It's spoken so much of in the Bible and ought to be remembered. And I don't know, I think some of the issues that have come about are because of lack of love and forgiveness.

And it just, in general, since then, it just, from what a person has come to know, it seems like there is a general, maybe, a law-mindedness that has crept into God's kingdom. And that, to me, is very worrisome because the law is so demanding and it threatens. And if we think about the gospel, it's the complete opposite. It calls and offers grace.

What more is it that we are than children of grace? We want this calling and this offering for ourselves first, but also to other people. So with that, there comes this demand for perfection, and I think it's been alluded to, John has been, from what I've come to know, has been, there's been a lot that has been demanded of him, and I don't know that I would

I think that it's been cared for correctly, so the lack of love. And then just the Holy Spirit. We hear a lot of the Spirit guides us, but that it's so important for us to remember that the Holy Spirit needs to be

We can see that the spirit moves something, but if it's not tied to the word of God, it means nothing. And there's a very, very big danger for us if we don't remain in the truth of God's word.

I guess in that light, I would like to know from you, Rockford, individuals or other ministers that are here, have you asked further questions of people, or in this case, John, and do you feel that it's okay to proceed with essentially kind of, I guess I can't say it other than a lack of love for him and forgiveness?

In the end, we all have that same goal as it's been mentioned, to reach heaven. So it's not like we're playing this game of gotcha. Like, nope, I'm right, you're wrong. That's not the spirit that we want to have here. In the end, it's what is right, not who is right.

Yeah, just I'll let anyone from Minneapolis board correct me if I don't recall this right, but just commented that those questions that were not ever brought up. Okay, a few years ago,

Yeah, we did, as a board, we wanted to hear congregation thoughts about discussion items or topics, because we started this, I think it was a quarterly discussion evening or so. Okay, I don't remember all the details. But when we went through those questions or proposals in that box,

There were a couple of items that were

In a personal level, that when we discussed in a board, we didn't feel at that time that there was need or that it was appropriate to have a congregation discussion on such a specific item that was needed.

But there were no secrecies. So I just wondered, what I recall, there was no secrecy, there was no intention to hide anything. It was just that those questions did not fit what we were looking for as a congregation-wide discussion. So if there is any thoughts or questions

In that regard, I would like those to be corrected, and if there's any rumors about that, that would be also good to correct, because as far as I recall, there were no hiding, no secrecy. It was just that they were not picked. Anyone can... We did not put on a question about what it was, but we were gathering discussion items.

And I think I know the specific question you're asking about. And it was asked that, no, we wouldn't read that one. And we were gathering them and we put them in the groupings. And it was, as a board, we looked at that one question and said, this isn't true. Why would we bring up something that was not true?

And so that was where that was. So are you saying there was an accusation made with any one of them? Yeah, I'll say what it was then. There was one in there that said, why isn't there no love for John? And that was just brought up here again. In the last 25 years, there has been great love for John all along. And so with that whole one that there's this perception out there, it was a big concern for us.

That actually wasn't the one that I was necessarily referring to. That is one of them, but not the other one. Well, and it referred to what is occurring at the board level. And I guess as a congregation member, if there is something that is amiss, that is worrisome to the congregation members. And I hope that you don't perceive that as an attack, because it's not what it's meant to be. It's not that.

This is supposed to be free, and the reason why I said secrecy is because that is how I truly felt. If there would have been some mention that there were a couple of other questions that we decided would probably be best to not read here, that would have helped to alleviate that. What I am seeing is

Let's have transparency and let's have love for one another. And it's not this finger-pointing business. That's not love. That only does this. It draws rifts. Love is what unifies.

And so, I mean, at that meeting, I mean, that was the decision that was made. That was how we decided as a board to structure it. And we apologize for any misunderstandings on that. And then I guess, Dennis, I want to address you for a minute as well, just for the May 6th meeting.

I wasn't in the annual meeting anymore at that point that I had to leave when that was discussed, but the decision was that every, I believe every board member understood it, that within two weeks we would have a meeting scheduled. It was not that we would have a meeting in two weeks, that we would have a meeting scheduled, have that figured out. If you, go ahead. Eric, this is,

Just an example of why Elmer Alajoki always recorded meetings, minutes, you know, in spiritual issues. And not that we want to prove that I am right and somebody else is wrong.

But that's the reason, and the meeting minutes are recorded. It's not worth it for me to champion my understanding of how I interpreted it. Maybe you're right, but that's one of the joys. And when we're preciously believing, we have no fear of what we say. If I'm wrong, I can be corrected.

If I'm right, I help others. Why would I be afraid if this is being recorded? When you live in Christ, you have the peace of God with you. There should be no fear. Not that we become arrogant, but recording minutes, and it's not...

You know, you, you, you, you, you, that's how you interpreted it. You might be right, you know, I might be wrong, but if this was a doctrinal issue, or if there was offense made, what would, you know, Jared and I do? We would sit down together with love, and we would listen, and then we, we, we, our egos, we'd try to flush those, right?

And we'd sit down, and if I was wrong, then I'd take care of my manners. And that's when I can't quite figure out why John and Keith cannot actually

Love each other as brothers. Like, I don't know if Keith is like doubting Thomas and he just is plagued with all the sins of, you know, not only his but other people. I don't want to start speaking on Keith's behalf, but John made, I've never,

I've always been such a joy to be a part of Minneapolis because if I have a question about scripture, I can freely ask John. And he will tell me his understanding of scripture. And I encourage all you guys to read the Bible. You know, really, I'm serious about it. And because it's a great joy, I can ask him a question, he'll give me an answer. And if he doesn't know the answer, he'll get back to me. You know, and that's, we need

Men that don't have big eagles but understand scripture and I could send you all kinds of articles that over the years he sent me translated from Finland. His joy is

I encourage a guy like Keith to say that this is what's doctrinally wrong if you think something's wrong with John.

Roll it out. Don't just say you're concerned, but you won't share what the concern is. You know, if I had a concern for Marcus Lowe, I would want to be able to say, Marcus, this is what my concern is. I wouldn't want to say, Marcus, I have concern for you. I doubt that you're believing correctly, but not tell Marcus what the concern is. That is actually promoting unbelief.

That's actually very, and I address this to you Keith, that's very, very simple for you to say that you have concerns for somebody when you don't know what the concern is. You know, maybe you can say that, well, this is spiritually correct and this is okay, but it's actually not right that if I don't, and if I don't have the strength, I pray that I could get the strength.

And I encourage anyone here that you have concerns for me, pray for what the concern is, you know. And, you know, I guess in closing, I'd like to ask everyone if they could forgive me for any offenses. Will you forgive me? Thank you.

The gentleman in the back. Risto Keranen. Yeah, the reason I'm here is obviously because of all the issues that have been talked about.

I'm not here to spy on what you guys are doing. In God's kingdom, you can freely speak as you wish. If the Spirit is true, the Spirit will never judge. However, it will correct. Some of the concerns that I have had is, I spoke with a brother just the other day at my house, came over to town, and we had a really nice discussion.

He had related to me some concerns that he had regarding this term, continual forgiveness. And the concern, he said, was that it was blurring the lines between grace and absolution.

I think grace and absolution run together. So whether you call it we live by continual or constant grace or constant forgiveness, it means the same thing to me. We live under this because our sins are forgiven. Christ has done that work for us so that we don't have to do anything for the world.

Another concern is peace. I have concern for you because you have concerns for everybody else. God's word gives us very sober warning. Judge not that you may not be judged.

For what the Judge may be judged, it shall be judged, and what the measure he need, it shall be measured on me. And why beholdest thou the most in me? That is, in my brother's eye. Considereth not the meaning? That is, within thine own eye. Or how wilt thou say, that, brother, let me pull out the most from that, out of thine eye, that behold the meaning within thine own eye?

The idea that there's always concerns. I have a concern for this person because I have a feeling.

Or that the Holy Spirit, the message was right, but the Holy Spirit was guiding that. That is concerning to me. We need to, if someone teaches or preaches correctly, that was guided by the Holy Spirit.

We don't live by feelings, we live by faith, and faith alone. And I encourage you, Keith, and I'm not attacking you, I'm saying this because I do have genuine concern for you. That this love has been broken because

We're always examining every little fault. Both you and John are equally as faulty, and I'm not going to sit here and defend John's fault. I know he's just as evil as the rest of us. But I would hope and I would encourage that somehow, someway, we get beyond these differences.

So that love can be restored, the gospel can be preached, and we can live in unity again, through unity of the Spirit.

That's basically all I have to say. Thank you. Next slide. Yeah, I just got off my appointment. The May 6th meeting scheduling has been a catastrophe for me. The annual meeting took my interpretation as the chairman of that meeting was that the board would schedule a congregation within two weeks.

And that was the message I brought to the board, and that's what was done. So we can go back to the reporting on the meeting and see if that's what the discussion actually came up with, but if that was incorrectly brought to the board, that would be my fault, because that was my interpretation, and that would be groundless. So I just don't want any more de-clarification on that one. Thank you.

Well, brothers, I don't know if anybody has any other thoughts, questions, clarifications. Feel free.

And I just need one little bit of what I've been thinking lately, but I'm just going to read it from when I was talking to my mom about this earlier, and I've been really curious, of course, not being from here.

Some of how it is affecting our institutions, specifically for my interest. So I was talking to my mom about it and she said, there's a few things that I've heard that don't seem right to me that people have said about continual forgiveness. I would have to look into it and hear exactly what is being said so I understand better. Something about continual forgiveness and how we're always here to just do these guys to all of our sins. If I heard correctly,

Some people are minimizing the importance of forgiveness. For them, it is very important to assist in strength and vision, to stay on the right path. It's a great privilege to help others. I think that's one of the points that hundreds of ways can go by. I don't know. And I told her that continuous forgiveness to me means grace. Point A, when we hear the gospel, to point B, when we hear the gospel again, our sins are forgiven.

We're endeavoring to believe we don't have to fear eternal death because we've got to ask for this or that sin, or if we didn't have the chance to. Some people think others interpret the term continuous forgiveness to be freedom sin because all we do is sin or that sin because it'll just be forgiven anyway. I don't believe that that's true. In Romans 6.15 it says,

Assuming that others are interpreting the term continuous forgiveness,

I'm struggling for the right words here, but I couldn't help but think of Matthew. Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone. He shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

But if you will not hear these, then take with you one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. And if you shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church. But if you neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. I hadn't intended to come here to share my own psalm,

But I feel compelled to do that. As you know, there's been lots of questions, even from myself and other ministers. And I've often thought of this part of Scripture in these times. Because when a comment is made, even if it's a public comment or a conversation,

It's had between brothers, and it doesn't quite seem to come to a common understanding. For whatever reason, the enemy of souls has found inroads into them being able to cast doubt on one another's faith, because we haven't come to consensus in the matter of the drop. And I've seen that happen time and time again.

And I'm not speaking to defend or attack anyone, but really to try to shed a little bit of light just from my own experience. There's been, in many people's lives over the last several years, a coming to terms

With this thought that for me, and I say this for myself, confession has been a burden throughout my lifetime. Confession is not the core matter of the Doctrine of Faith. But nonetheless, for me personally, it was. Others have come to that same consensus.

And when you read the book of Romans, that's become the most precious book in the Bible to me because Paul's psalm is on what a wretched, sinful man he is, but yet by the grace of God he can believe. And that's what I've come to know, is that by the grace of God and nothing else, I can believe. Confession doesn't go away. Confession doesn't become something that is thrown out the window.

But yet, when this discussion has happened, some have interpreted this to mean, because of my experience and attempting to relate it to others, that it means permissiveness of sin, it means confession is not needed, it means the gospel is not needed, and many other such things have been said. And I fear that the same has happened to many others.

And why is this, dear brothers and sisters, I ask every one of you today, have we been completely free of guilt? I don't think any of us have. We've all fallen into this trap of being able to notice the faults of others and forget about our own. And I fear, for every one of us,

God's kingdom is as we hear it, a kingdom of love, and love has been broken.

And that will not be healed unless every one of us, and I mentioned this at Bible class the other night, and I have been to each Bible class, every one of us, but not one of us would exclude, needs to look into their own heart, where am I today? How are my matters? How do I stand before the righteous Heavenly Father? And none of us can say, I'm guilty, as we all are burdened with guilt. But nonetheless,

Thank God that Jesus Christ has been sent into this world because by and through him, every one of us can look upon the middle cross of Golgotha and say, there is my sin. He's bore the price, dear brothers and sisters. He's carried that burden. Believe on it. Believe your sins were given.

Don't accuse one another. And if there's wrong doctrine involved in this, God will reveal this with patience and love. But I firmly believe that my sins are borne by my Savior, and confession is the support of my faith, not a robe of righteousness. I firmly believe that. And somehow, in some ways, in some conversations, that gets misconstrued. But yet, it's the reality of the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

And I found great peace and joy in that personal revelation to me. That it's not my confession that saved me, but it's my faith. And it's merely a gift, but it's not of my own doing. So let us all pray for one another, dear brothers and sisters, that love can be restored. And can I hear a gospel here tonight?

One other thing I wanted to say about the Church Law of Christ, because I think it's an important thing for you to remember. If you will not hear the take with the one or two more of that in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established.

I was thinking about that every word may be established part. I think that's critical to this because if we hear something, share it with someone else, share it with someone else, we may have heard the words but missed the interpretation. So that's where the importance of sitting down with two or three in a small, close,

I think that's extremely critical and that's what Jesus gave to us.

I'm Jean Huhta and I'm glad Craig brought this Church Law of Christ. You say this has been going on for several years, this problem. Why hasn't the Church Law of Christ been used until it's a full blown, all over America type of situation?

Did you explain a little bit more what you mean by that? Just more details? Okay, with the Minneapolis congregation, there hasn't been unity with the board, but why? And why didn't they bring it to the congregation or take it, you know, so it's not spread all over? You know, and then we heard, we were at the board meeting

Last week, and it was said, well, you know, Rockford has had some questions about John's presentation or what he has said. Well, if they've had a problem with John saying something that they didn't think was right, have you visited with him about it?

One-on-one? You know? And if you haven't, well, why does he keep going? I mean, I'm concerned for everybody. I don't want anybody to lose faith.

This is something that's happened, I think, in many different situations that people have talked. I think John's not even here to bring this up. I think it's really unfair to speak about the situation with John when he's not here.

He should be here. He thinks what he believes in Hollywood. I assume what he thinks he believes. I don't think it's fair for anybody. Well, that's okay, but if there was a problem, I don't know what it was, but if there was a problem, why hasn't it been discussed with him? It has been. Okay. It has been. Individuals have approached him. That's the only way to help him.

And those matters have been resolved. And so, then, this is an extension of that, if you will. This will be an opportunity to discuss these further jobs. Now, here's the reason why. And it's like we had the presentation on the Robe of Righteousness. John had it. I think he had it in Minneapolis. Well, any of them. But nothing he said, well, it's wrong, or he doesn't understand it right. That's the time to correct it, wouldn't it?

I mean, if he gives a presentation and it's not correct? So I myself, we've had all these presentations, but nobody has sat down and said, this is where he is wrong, or this is where they're wrong, or whatever. And so we're just questioning, well, what is wrong?

I think those are fair questions, and I think those are the things that we all need to pray over. Because through these times we're living, yet things aren't yet so clear. Yet at the same time, the believers are troubled. And when believers are troubled, the sheep are troubled, there's something wrong.

I don't know exactly what it is, but I think I didn't live before the last heresy, but before the last heresy, I'm trusting that there's a lot of these kinds of discussions among individuals, among groups, and there was a difference. There was a different spirit working, but until the time when the heresy came, when there was clear doctrinal differences, that's when the split came. So what I'm worried is that these things are being discussed

Without having foundation for them, without having understanding in them, and your emotions of people are raising up here, and there hasn't been... I realize what you're saying, but in another sense, you're saying there's a wrong something there. You must know what that wrong something is. I don't know personally what that wrong something is, but the congregation has voiced their concern.

And the congregation voices are concerned. And Jeanne, it's not just from here. So if the congregation is concerned, that's why we need to continue this discussion. But when John's not here, I don't think it's fair to even discuss this.

So... Dennis, can we let the chairman on the meeting, please? Yeah, he gave me the nod. No, I was just saying, I got your name here. Oh, okay. I read your nod. I took you up on that nod. Okay. Are you done? Yeah. Go ahead, Dennis.

Okay, so in the research of these past heresies going beyond the Torvas, I haven't sensed any of the Torva mission group heresy doctrinal errors being a problem in North America, but we dial the clock back.

90 years, 120 years, and those doctrinal errors, for instance, the small firstborn called the federation, it took 10 years and up to even 15 years for the clear doctrinal errors to become apparent.

So if any of us are living of a wrong doctrine, you know, and we're not sharing that, if somebody here believes that you're saved through confession and not faith, it might take some time, and I encourage you to not believe that way. But if you do believe that way or you believe you're saved through works or some other of these characteristics of these heresies of a hundred years ago,

When you add to the work of Christ, it's difficult to see that it's wrong. And it's difficult for believers to actually rebuke somebody that lives of a works righteousness. But inevitably, these former believers lived in the works righteousness, their self-righteousness, you had that up on the board, and other characteristics, confession, doctrine,

It took years for them to become bold. Inevitably, Lucifer, the devil Satan, encouraged them to

Share their wrong doctrine boldly. And then, of course, the believers. We were known as the Heidemans 90 years ago because Arthur Heideman fought against it and he was a minority. The minority group remained in living Christianity. We were known as the Heidemans 90 years ago. So in any case, I don't think that a works righteousness is so easy

The sins of the left are real obvious, more so than a works righteousness saved through your works. You go to church because then you'll go to heaven. You go there if you're present. Versus desiring to follow Christ and desiring to live in Christ and desiring to see what the Bible is saying. How do I believe?

So, my point being is that I don't think that you can, like, I think it's hard for us believers to see in ourselves if we're living of a works righteousness, or if we believe we're saved through confession.

It's not so easy, so I pray for any of you that live on a works righteousness or a confession doctrine. I pray that you could be freed from that. Craig had a nice speaking turn, sharing that perhaps maybe for some years he felt like he wasn't a free child of God. What does that mean, being a free child of God?

And those that looked at the brazen serpent did not die from the snakebites. Those that did look at the brazen serpent died from the snakebites. We need to look to Christ to be saved.

Not ourselves, not the inherited sin. And if you think you can drive out the inherited sin, you won't ever drive it out. You'll never be an equal to Jesus Christ. But when you live in Christ, a huge support for your faith. When you live in Christ, when you can't be

Free from inherited sin and battle against it. Battle against inherited sin. You can't ever drive inherited sin out of you. You will never be pure. Inherited sin dwells in us. Here. I want to address Amy a little bit because

The question of the Church Law of Christ is taking care of matters and why haven't things been brought to the congregation. Matters have been taken care of over and over, and the Gospel is preached. And there hasn't been something to take to the congregation. Well, there have been, it's taken to the congregation. The Church Law of Christ has been followed at least for my 10 years onward.

I can't speak to more than that. The gospel is preached. And I have two major concerns that come up. One, after the board meeting, the gospel is preached. We leave there. I've forgotten about it. We're not perfect. My words are weak. Others are weak. And, as people have said, the next day you hear from somebody that this is what went on in the board meeting. And there's lies. Outright lies sometimes.

That comes out of some of these meetings of what happened. That is a big, big, big problem that breaks the trust that they're talking about. I don't want to talk about this. I didn't want to come here tonight because this is, it's a bad spot. And we go to the board, and as chairman now for more than two years,

I have asked our board members, what causes this difference? What is going on? Why is this word out there that Minneapolis Board is divided? Because we can talk to things when we come at least this close in agreement. And nobody answers. But somebody knows, because they're sharing. And that's happening on our board. But when they sit there and they don't say, I know why this is out there, that is lying on the board. It is a big concern.

Now I'm going to address that about the Torah Laharis. The annual meeting that we had, we had a split in the congregation. There was absolutely no question that there was a division in the congregation. And it reminded me very much of the Torah Laharis. We don't need the LLV, let's not support them, let's take care of things at the local congregation level.

I heard from many people after that meeting, and as most of you know, I had to read before a lot of it, that it reminded them of capitalism. But that was the word that was used.

These are very big concerns. As I stated, everyone in living Christianity is welcome to the Minneapolis congregation discussion. I don't know what you heard there, but apparently you didn't hear me state that this is one large family of God, even those from Togo and Ghana, are welcome.

Let's not exclude those people. Finland, we are one family. No pride, no ego. I made that very clear at the annual meeting, and I hold to that very much. And I don't know what you said, because I'm sure I was long gone by that point. But the message that came out around taking care of things locally, that that was a big concern for a lot of people.

And naturally in the Juusola home, if you have some trials with your children and your wife,

Inevitably you discuss those issues in your Juusola home, of course. Okay. And then if you can't figure out the problems in your wife and your children, inevitably you bring in some families to settle your issues in the Juusola home. That's no different than a home congregation. We have a home congregation. It's one family of God.

Why should we not? But at the meeting, I encourage anyone that wants to come, that's my view, as is anyone's welcome, but let's have a congregational discussion. Why are we having this discussion here? Why are we having it in Minneapolis with our own family of God in Minneapolis?

I'm not saying this is wrong, but inevitably, just like your home, you would have your discussion in your home, and we could have had our discussion in Minneapolis and not involve other congregations in North America. That's my point.

Comparing it to Calumet is a little bit of a stretch in my mind. But you have that freedom. That's what I heard from Tom. Yeah, and you have the freedom to think that way.

I'm not faulting you, but I don't see it that way. I don't think this is something we should do. Well, I'm explaining what came out of it. So my point was, when you said that you don't see any correlation to what happened in the last heresy, our annual meeting actually showed some similarities, and that's a very big concern for a lot of people.

There was a definite divide within the congregation on these things. When our spiritual matters are not in unity, the temporal matters become hard. They become hard to deal with. Similar to this May 6th meeting, was it going to be done in two weeks or be scheduled in two weeks? It shouldn't be a hard thing, but it becomes hard when our spiritual matters are not in the same place.

And some board members who have left Minneapolis, that's one of the things that they've said, that it becomes hard to be on the board because the temporal matters have become very hard to deal with because of that type of debt. And we've gotten there immediately. It's the truth. I'll go back to what Eric said. I have for many years been very

Level, even, tried to make sure I was getting both sides. Tried to make sure everything was heard. And didn't think, and looked at personalities, and Keith and John, and this and that. The last few months, I've come to accept everything spiritual does. As Eric said, it took me a long time to accept it, but with what's happened these past few months,

Todd Anderson. As I sit here, I'm just kind of thinking along. I guess going back to knowing the comments about anger among ministers, I guess I haven't

I've never felt anger from the other ministers. Deceitfulness.

There's questions that ministers are being deceitful. I can't, and I guess I haven't myself heard that, about ministers being deceitful, but that part I'm, yeah, I guess.

If I spoke wrong during a sermon, I sure hope, and I've even said in my sermons that I would welcome people to come and talk to me because I feel so weak in my understanding. But I do want to address even one of your points that you said that you feel it's wrong to speak of heresy.

If we look at the Korah, when Korah was, we say, one of the heresies, the first heresies, or one of the first heresies, I guess, recorded. When that heresy happened, when the earth swallowed up

Korah and the 250 followers. Moses, well I guess I'll read from Numbers here. If I can find it.

But they took these censers that Moses had used and they said,

[Eleazar the priest] took the brasen censers, wherewith they that were burnt had offered; and they were made broad plates for a covering of the altar to be a memorial unto the children of Israel that no stranger which is not of the seed of Aaron come near to offer incense before the Lord. But I guess that the English Standard Version, it says that so that they would remember

That heresy, so that the people would be reminded of that.

And so I think that, and maybe I'm wrong in my understanding even in this, but even if we look at the children of Israel on that wilderness journey in Korah when he tried to rise up against Moses and then the earth swallowed Korah and those 250 people there that first time is what I understand.

God wanted the children of Israel to know that they made that plate for a covering of the altar so that they would remember that this is what will happen if you go against God's kingdom.

So I think that even in God's Word, and maybe my understanding is weak and correct me if I'm wrong, brothers, but it isn't, I wouldn't say it's wrong to speak in heresy, and it's good that we would even know of what's happened in the past. But also, too, on to my next thought, Dennis, when we were talking, I just want to

We were bringing Jared in. He has a problem in his house that he would, in his own household, that he would

Thank you for joining us.

They're going to come to me and tell me of that, if my children have done something. And so to say that if a matter is public and broad, there's no one.

God's kingdom doesn't have boundaries that we only deal with if we say only our home congregation. Yes, if it's something that's only known in our home congregation, then we try to deal with it. But if it's been

Spread broadly, I don't think there's a problem or there's an issue if it's spoken of in a bigger group. And especially there has been concerns

About different comments that have been made at the different meetings in Minneapolis, Rockford, and they have been from people of other congregations, so that's why we even feel that, or I would say that it's been felt that let's get together as two boards and ministers and just discuss this and try and, as you say, hammer open for

We've come to grips or understand as far as what are the issues and try and correct those issues. I don't feel that we've overstepped our bounds by having meetings of this nature, but I'd have to say that

You know, just coming to this meeting, I've felt my own lack into the years and sinfulness and abstinence. And I know I don't have all the points of words, so please, hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Thank you, Todd. I'm behind you. I don't know your name. I have one sort of thing. I think there's talk about different understandings, different spirits, connotations of spirits. I think that's dividing, and I don't see it.

Not trusting God's power to unite. We are all concerned for God. Like myself, I'm not concerned for anybody. I have left all concerns for God. I try to consider myself. I will remind myself that I have to watch myself in my spot.

And I have noticed myself, I can't, if there, for example, would be some understanding somebody that I feel that is not quite right, myself, I can't get that person to understand with my own power, no matter how much I would talk. The same thing we can make any of our friends, make it happen from unbelief, unless God works

In that person's heart. So I think that we should be more concerned and talk about the word and Christ and why we are saved and when we are saved we have that joy in our hearts and we don't have to be so concerned about others' thoughts and take care of those people. Thoughts will be already taught in God

All, God can unite even big differences, everything, and we as people, we can't solve anything unless we put all our thoughts in God. Okay, so I'm gonna, okay, so you asked me about saying deceitfulness.

Okay, so, and I may be wrong, but these are things I've heard, and that's why I'm bringing it up. Like, Jared has sometimes brought things, and I thought the one thing was where we asked, the questions were asked, and those things come out, and I'll only clarify that. Russ Roiko knows that he brought something before the congregation that wasn't correct. He was corrected on it, and he was, I understand his manner to these individuals was not,

Correct. But he brought this out to the congregation, this incorrect message from the forum. We weren't there. We were at Mary's Seat Services in Rockford. And that's never been corrected before the congregation, so this comes up all the time. Jouko, you have had some issues with the brothers.

Brothers, and within 10 hours, you've forgotten what you've said. So that's, to me, that's deceitfulness. That's easier than saying lying. I hate to say that. But if you say something, you should stand for that. I will stand for what I say. Could you please say what it is? Okay, there was an issue at this minister's camp where

I believe the brother didn't even visit with you about coming there, but this was innocently brought out by another brother that, oh, Jouko said he talked to you and told you no, and the brother said, I haven't talked to Jouko for six months. So then when he approached you on it, you said you have no recollection of it. Well, that kind of makes the person lose their respect a little bit, wondering, okay, do you tell the truth or not?

Before God, we need to be truthful. God is an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-hearing being. He knows our hearts, He knows. If you said something, I think that you may honestly answer. So that's why I come up with that, Scott. And what was the other thing you asked me?

Oh, the heresy. Well, I guess I've just always heard that it's like churning the waters and it's causing division and God's word should gather, not scatter. So, that was my understanding. Was there, I thought there was one more thing that you asked me. And I think it's good. I don't think this is bad. I think it's good that we're having everyone here so we can help each other. We all have the same endeavor and we all want to get to heaven.

So we all have the very wrong understanding, but we want to be corrected. No problem. Friday afternoon at the minister's camp there was a discussion about Kenny Raisanen coming to the camp. And

On Saturday morning, there was again discussion about the same topic. And one of the camp participants said that, I was wondering last evening what kind of fit into this setting.

And there was a Bible story of Simon the Pharisee who invited Jesus to his home for the meal, and the sinful woman came there. And Jesus allowed the sinful woman to be there, and Simon the Pharisee didn't want her to be there.

A few hours after that, during the day's discussion, I commented on that shortly and said that to me that was not a good quote from the Bible.

We are not the house of Simon the Pharisee. We're sinful men, living about matters of faith, and so the Bible story, to me, did not fit into this setting.

And this brother who used the Bible story came to me Saturday evening, so the same evening, and said that I didn't think about that, that I did not mean that that was the time the Pharisees gathered there when the ministers were gathered. And so now you decide if I lied or not.

I heard him ask, was he, meaning Kenny Raisanen, addressed for this matter? And I said, yes, he was. And now, I obviously either didn't hear it or didn't understand it. The question was, did I personally talk to Kenny? I answered, was he approached? And I said, yes, he was.

And now, on Sunday morning, this discussion took place where I was being told that I lied when I said, yes. And I told them that that's what I understood, that what he approached by this matter, and I said, yes, I know he was approached, and I agreed with that. So, you decide if I lied or not.

Okay, well thank you for clarifying. I think these things need to be talked about so that they can be heard. And I'm one that when I hear stuff, I ask. If I may continue, do you feel that I lied? Well, I heard that you had said that you didn't

What did I hear? I hear that you had said that you asked the brother, or the brother asked you and you said no, and the brother had asked Keith about coming, and Keith was the one who had told him no. Where did I say no? To Kenny that he couldn't come to the meeting.

But you haven't spoken with Kenny at all? No, not personally. I heard the question, has he been approached? And I said, yes. And the question was, have I personally approached him? And I answered that question. So, you decide if I lie or not.

If I may continue a little bit of that, I kind of expected it might come here or somewhere else.

And we hear much talk about the love here. Even saying that love joins us. Well, the understanding based on the Bible is, and the understanding of Christianity is that love does not join us, but the Spirit. Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

So love does not join us, but the Spirit joins us as well. And love is one of the proofs, and it's even the first proof of the Spirit. And I understand that if there's a concern in my sermon, because it's a public speech, I do not try to hide how I believe.

I speak as I believe. For me, I said to the board that's my only option. I speak as I believe. And so I understand that these kind of offenses to my service are being taken publicly, either here or a congregational discussion. Of course, it feels a little uncomfortable, but I accept that. I'm fine with that.

But on the other hand, I don't feel much love in that. At the same time, talking about the church law of Christ and why these discussions go on and why are they being talked behind the back, I have heard so awful things.

A person came and said, what is being spoken about me behind my back? And he approached me and asked, is it true? And I said, first, no. But if you find it difficult to believe, you have to talk to my wife or to my children. And it's such a horrible thing that I don't even want to talk about that here.

But these are, these are, they are weighty things, and they, of course they hurt me, but I don't, I don't demand perfection from the others because I cannot do it myself. So I'm not speaking for that reason.

But I think that we honor well, as Craig so beautifully said, and I wholeheartedly agree, that may God help us, that may God help me, and it's so important that in this kind of situation, we humbly ask

Knowing that we stand before the bright light of the time. That's where I'm at. My understanding is that Kenny asked the LLC if he could go to a minister's camp. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the LLC said that he's welcome to come.

Kenny wrote to me and said that he would like to come to Ministers Camp. I wrote back to him and said that the Ministers Camp has been for ministers.

Traditionally, and the pastoral committee members that I contacted felt that we would want to keep it that way. So I responded to Kenny with that very answer, and we can talk more about what happened after that, and that was the answer.

Yeah, just to clarify, it wasn't quite like that. I didn't write to Keith's email or anything. I just contacted the office and whoever the kind lady was there that answered the phone. I communicated with her and she forwarded my email or whatever to Keith. It wasn't a request to go. It was just expressing interest.

Well, I don't know anyhow that wouldn't have been a request to go. Obviously, I was directing the camp, and you sent a message to Annette that you would like to come, and I responded as I just stated, that we tried to keep that from ministers. And you...

Annette forwarded the email to me because I was directing, so I started corresponding with you. I said that we wanted to keep this for the ministers, and in another email I explained that there's mother's camps, there's other camps that are specifically for specific groups of people, and that's the way we wanted to keep the minister's camp. Not that it's anything so private there, but that

For brothers in faith to work together and to discuss matters that pertain to the office and the work that came in, that's the way we wanted to keep it. And so then you responded that you're going to come anyway. I responded to your first email and that was it.

Well, you can read the emails, I have them here, but we responded to you there. Exclamation point. That's true. Hope to see you there.

And I don't think it was a unreasonable request on the part of the LLC that we would keep the cancer ministers and at least we know what happened. It is what it is.

I lost that tonight, I think. It wasn't necessarily what I expected to get into when we scheduled this meeting tonight. But yes, the discussion has been very informative, I think.

The tone of the meeting has been difficult for me. It seems like there's undertones of mistrust. And maybe even to some extent trying to teach me something or educate or inform me of something that

I don't know or should know, and I almost felt like I had in some ways been lectured and reduced for so much time for even having this meeting. So in my mind, I've been struggling tonight. I guess I didn't expect it.

This meeting was organized for two sister congregation boards to get together to talk about difficulties in our congregation. Rockford board has done a good thing about, we spend who knows how many hours per year

And it can be many hours per night when we meet. Talking about spiritual concerns in the congregation, this is the number one duty of the Rockford board, and I think of most of any board of the Australian believers, is to oversee the spiritual condition of the congregation, and it's been so important.

For the Rockford Board to be united in these things and matters of faith. So we spent a lot of time talking about them and it's so important that it keeps us united in faith.

Sometimes the nights go long and we don't get our business done. But again, the business is secondary. The number one duty of the board is to preserve the unity in the congregation as we can. And that's what I anticipated tonight when we came was that two boards could get together and have a discussion about these things.

I think it's been troubling. It really has. It's been very informative to me. But now I start to feel the concerns that brothers from the Minneapolis board have and former board members of the Minneapolis board have conveyed to me and talked to me and emptied their hearts on me. Your brothers, I feel for you.

I'm glad we have this meeting tonight. It's been really good for me to be here and to hear this. And I wonder now deeply, is there a spiritual divinity, a spiritual... Two spirits. God. A jealous God. He has one spirit. Two spirits aren't going to get along in the same room. They will not.

You have the Holy Spirit or you don't. If there's another spirit present, you don't have the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit, you don't have any other spirit. I don't believe you can have two. So, I don't know if, and it's been difficult for me to build up courage to speak tonight because of the audience or the other part that depends.

And I don't, with the others I welcome you, I welcome you also, but it's been so intimidating for me to open my mouth and speak tonight. But nonetheless, I think it's,

There needs to be more discussion here. There's certainly a unity in the board. How can we agree on the color of the carpeting if we can't agree on the matters of faith? Matters of faith are number one, and so front and center is in our congregation. So with that, I carry on, and from my assistant, I'll .

Thank you, Dale. I would like to, for my own sake, ask, do I leave from here?

I can say you don't. You clarified, which I think is good, and that's why I think it's good to talk about these things. I'm thinking about them and find out what, you know. I'd like to ask Jimmy, did I speak as it happened? Did I speak as it happened? No, not exactly. Did I lie?

I've been sitting here thinking, I don't know. There's only three people that know. You, and Brother Phil, and God on high. There's no way for me to possibly know. I brought the two of you together to try to resolve, and we walked apart three different directions. I don't know. I pray to God that the truth is revealed, and love is returned.

I got left with at least a shadow of doubt. I have to be honest. So I didn't tell the truth now either? How am I to know?

I just feel the same. I just feel the same. Well, I hope we don't go into the minor. James. Yes, correct. I thought that he had been writing to my mind and told me he didn't understand.

Concerns that have been swirling around in Christianity are very specific doctrinal issues. We're not discussing them. For example, we're over the rights of men, and we don't forgive them. Watchmen on the wall are dying.

They're all very important to our Christianity. First and foremost would be that, as Lucas says, that the first article of faith is that the just of it by faith is by faith in God. And when that is understood, God gives grace and I understand that, that all these other artists of faith along the way,

So where do we find the answers to these doctrinal issues? We find them in Scripture. And if we don't turn to the Scripture, God's Word, as Timothy said, as Paul instructed Timothy to do, congregation has to go down in the pillar of truth. That pillar, above that pillar is what? Is the Word of God. The congregation upholds the Word of God. And if we don't go to the Word of God,

I'm going to talk about the side issues. You know, I mean, the wrong side issues. I mean, there's good discussion for it, but we don't get to the core of our doctrine, which I feel stronger and positively stronger. We will not get anywhere. Unity will not come to board. Unity will not come to congregation. It is not based on the Word of God. It's here it opens the Word of God.

If they're not tied together, the prayer of the heart reads the scriptures and the Lutherans understand that we will not come to unity, because unity has to be in the Holy Spirit. So if we took time to, I don't know how they were going to go, but if we took time to talk about these doctrines,

And look at the word of God and how we understand these matters under the light of God's word with prayerful hearts, then I think we'll get somewhere. But if we don't look at God's word, we will not resolve this problem. We will not come to this.

I've come here to get myself quite a bit of foundation and everything. I'm wondering what's going to happen. I'm fearful of all these different things. But through Jesus, there comes a meeting with open hearts and talks.

Faith Memo is the word of God's hand. We can discuss these matters. But I've had many frustrating moments and many unfaithful years. I'll throw that when I get here. God bless you all.

I would have to say that you're right, James, that we need to talk about doctrine. And in every heresy and doctrinal history that has been divided,

When I hear, when we're discussing matters, spiritual matters, you know, on a board level or even in a congregation discussion or whatever it is, when someone speaks and my spirit answers, it's easy to say, Amen. If my spirit doesn't answer and I'm asked,

What do I say? What do most people say? They'll talk in circles. I've experienced... Well, we can talk about the Minneapolis front board. When the first matter of withholding, when we were discussing that,

Jared went around, he asked us, how do we all believe? And we went around the table and we each said how we believe. Although when those that, specifically ones that couldn't, it didn't feel like you could say amen,

We were left confused. He talked and talked and talked and I had no idea what he said. And then the next board member would ask, try to come from a different angle. And he would talk and talk and talk and I would still talk. And I think almost every single board member that night was trying to just simply ask, are we unity?

And it wasn't there. Or it wasn't clear. I'm just speaking for myself that when I'm in unity, when my spirit says amen, it's easy to say amen. And if it's not, you're talking to a person.

And that's happened time and time again. That when we get into discussion right now, when we think of the last few years, there hasn't been that amen. And people have tried to talk, and then we say, well, we're almost, I think we see eye to eye, or we're almost there.

And James, I totally agree with you that we want to talk about doctrine, but when we've gone from issue to issue to issue and we can't quite, it feels like we can't quite get there, then I'm left with saying, what's the issue? What's the underlying issue? And I think that's what we're trying to, that's what the question has been here. What is the underlying issue?

I don't think, I've never felt that we're trying to, like tonight, not talk of doctrinal issues because we might be wrong or something, but it's simply that it feels like up to this point we've talked on all these different items and we haven't quite said amen. Our spirit hasn't been able to say amen.

And so we're trying to flush out what is the issue. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. And it's troubling. I've even told my dear wife that

All I can do is pray, because I don't know. All we can do is pray, because God will reveal in time. And until that time, all I can do is pray. Until the issues are revealed is that I can only myself take care of my own matters and

It puts sin away as it catches on to my heart and conscience. And if I am, like I said, if I have offended others, I'm sure hopefully they'll come and talk to me. I'm feeling kind of helpless at this point. I don't know where to go. I don't know where a discussion would even go.

And I've sat here and I've prayed. God help us. We've got a few people on the list here. I think Mike...

Thank you. Thank you.

Before I began, I too feel like many failings, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many,

I have to say amen to what you all have said. My understanding is the same, that love is a proof of faith.

And we've had this discussion on the Minneapolis board about unity, and maybe I'm the broken record, but I still come back to this question of unity, and it's my feeling like we don't make unity. We can't get unity. We either have unity or we don't. It's a fruit of faith. It's a fruit of believing the same.

And these questions that we struggle with, if we were in the same spirit, if we have the same spirit, we would hear, discuss, and listen, and then obey.

It's my understanding that if we don't believe the same, then we don't have unity, then we don't have love. We can try, and we can try hard, and not get there, but don't. That's my song.

And that's my feeling that we don't pay attention. And as others have mentioned, that's a sobering thought because there is only one way out. So when we...

Also, we need to remember that we want to try to be obedient to the voice of the mother, to be obedient to the voice of the parents. We all need to be there. We need to humble ourselves and obey.

You need to be able to meet up with God.

And I guess for myself, I remember what my parents and elders, what I overheard them speaking of is kind of the last here, is that you don't always know, you don't always understand all the issues.

So we need to keep faith and we can do that. God promises to take care of us and to protect us and to show us the way. And so then,

And maybe this is a misunderstanding on my part, but I have taken that to mean that we put sin away as it attaches. And we're obedient to the congregation and to God's word about what is sin. So, if that means that somehow

I'm in a, you know, like I have a works righteousness. I would hope that you brothers and sisters would enlighten me there because that's what I've been taught since I was a child, that unforgiven sin separates us from God.

And so, I wanted to put sin away as it attaches to try to keep faith in the true conscience so that God would not, so that God would show me the way to have it.

I guess I'd characterize my comments first saying that I thought I knew the questions for the depth of them, a lot of the conversations. Sitting here tonight,

I realize I didn't know that. And in fact,

We've talked about the doctrine, for instance, involved in some of the discussions. What makes it difficult, and perhaps maybe you all don't understand the difficulties of this conversation, we're looking to follow through one of the topics that I've discussed with people, that is continual forgiveness. And I'm more than happy to admit that

The first time I heard it was at a discussion in Rockford a month or so ago. I'm also more than happy to admit that it's been used in publications in Zion, and I've never been concerned a little bit. I've just read right past it, and I understand now, after many discussions, that I look at that topic as grace.

And if I've seen it before as continuous forgiveness, I've apparently translated that as grace, because when I look at it now, that's how I see it. The problem in these discussions right now is we don't all see it that way. If we could at least come to understand what continuous forgiveness is, then we can decide that is it doctrinal or is it not?

Unfortunately, I've had conversations where, first of all, I would say that I totally agree. If you say that continual forgiveness is bad, I agree. Wholeheartedly. Then there's been conversations I've had where I have no idea what they're trying to get at with continual forgiveness. I don't know. And then other conversations where I don't agree with it. It's not correct.

And that's what makes it difficult. Because, for instance, I might begin to understand that someone believes that continual forgiveness, because of a previous conversation, says that, or believes that, you don't need to put sin away. I've had those conversations, and it's not fair to even talk about it that way.

And so if I think about that, and the next person I talk to talks about continual forgiveness, I can't get that from my mind. And I think that that's what that person means, so now I don't agree with it. But then in conversation, after a little while, oh no, I believe just like you believe. It's frustrating and tiresome.

And it shouldn't be that way. Sometimes, even like tonight, for instance, Dennis, he's a good friend of mine. I've talked to him over and over, over the years, and we've got car rides for hours together, like, such good conversations, and tonight I sit here and I just hear someone talking so loud in so many ways that I believe the same way, but it doesn't, I don't know what I mean.

I don't feel like I'm on the same page all of a sudden. That's the way the conversations go. And that's why we have these kinds of meetings. It's not because we're trying to hide things, we're trying to come to an understanding. And so when Rockford Board tries to figure out why our congregation is having spiritual troubles in this question, we see from our own vantage point, our own discussions of what those are.

And we see that, well, there's a connection to Minneapolis. And now I come here tonight, and there's lots of Minneapolis numbers here, and now I kind of see a bigger picture why we have issues in Rockford. That wasn't gold. That's a good thing you're here. Now I understand more. But when I personally think about doctrine, you can go down

The pigeonhole in one point of doctrine so far that you are no longer in God's kingdom, even if you believe that point of doctrine, and it's the correct doctrine, you can be not a believer. For instance, there are obviously, we've spoken about those here tonight, some heresies who talk about confession.

That is mandatory, or they're presented with someone confessing their sins, and they say, well, no, that's not good enough, and they're measuring penitence. But that's the word they want with confession, because that's the word absolution is. I mean, my mind could go that way, but I wouldn't let it go there. But we understand by faith, but God has given us the spirit to know, for instance, we have heard tonight that we are saved by faith alone. We don't...

I want to say to myself that I don't live by faith. I'm saved by faith alone, but I live by all of God's grace, privilege, and gifts. Communion, baptism, confession, they're all important parts of living by faith. Faith saves us.

But if we go down the doctrinal point of just simply saying over and over and over again that we are saved by faith and that's all we think about, I believe we will lead ourselves out of God's kingdom. You can't just wholeheartedly discard things.

I mean, Luther, we've heard Luther spoken of, for instance, about the death shall live by faith. He spends many, many hundreds, thousands, perhaps, pages discussing that. But yet, when he moves on to confession, he says, he speaks about, like, it's indispensable. It's like, it's part of living by faith. We are saved by faith, but we live by faith. And he explains that we live it by confessing our sins one to another. That's how he brought it all back to a conclusion.

It's frustrating and tiring. I don't know in what frame of mind I'm supposed to be in this conversation or that conversation. I don't know what vantage point the questioner or the person speaking is speaking to me or asking about. I don't know. And yeah, we can have all these individual conversations, but

It's good that we have these board level conversations that we can perhaps come to that understanding. If we talk about continual forgiveness in this mind, we can agree with that. If it's this mind, we don't. I've had other conversations, for instance, about this, that if we talk about continual forgiveness and we always think about it as grace, why do we need to call it continual forgiveness? We've always talked about it as grace.

Is there a reason why we need to bring it up that way, so forcefully? Is it one of those cases where, for instance, if your brother eats meat, or if your brother is offended that you eat meat, that you don't eat meat there? If it offends all the elders that this two words together is being supplemented for grace, why are we saying it that way? It's a question I have.

But if you're looking at a different point of view and it's not grace, I can see why you want to say it's continual forgiveness, because it's not grace. But in the discussions I've had, I don't know what point of view the person's coming at, and it's confusing. And in some ways, I would say yes, it's a doctrinal error, it's a different spirit. In other cases, well, maybe that person just believes the same way I do.

It'll work itself out in time, I agree. But we have to keep discussing them as they come up. I agree with that. And a one-on-one, one, two, three, four people at a time discussing, sure, that really helps because we get time to speak.

Right now we have, you know, if the chairman allows a few minutes each to speak, and then you're done. We don't have the, you know, back and forth that allows that kind of consensus to come. I know that it wouldn't have happened in some of the discussions that I would say that that person believes like me if we didn't have that time. No, I don't believe that, but I believe this.

But the same way also tonight I've heard many times spoken very nicely about love and caring for each other in love, and then the same person will all of a sudden start coming up with all these little detailed questions and concerns. So at the same point as someone's saying they're concerned about being concerned, yet they're concerned about something else.

It's okay to be concerned about our brothers and sisters. It's okay. Whether you struggle with the left side or the right side, it's okay if we're concerned about it. Let's talk to each other. And not become so hardened to that person's line or this person's this. Because that's not the way the Spirit leads.

It's okay to be concerned, and it's okay to even have differences of opinion if we speak about it and the spirit helps us understand what it is. That's what board meetings are like. It's not like we all come there with a rubber stamp, you know how it's going to be. It happens over and over and over again. When I go to a board meeting and have my own opinion or idea of how one subject is going to go, and by the end, I don't agree with it. My mind is changed, and I won't go that way.

We don't get that without discussion. And that comes out with some concerns. Put a different word in there. I don't know. But what frustrates me is, in the middle of these discussions, I find myself being pigeonholed.

Every sermon is a different way. I've heard even that some have said that I'm going to listen to sermons and I'm going to catch everyone that's wrong. Every detail. I'm going to tell them. Well, I've been told details. I've been told sometimes that, yeah, you spoke so good there. Continual forgiveness. That's what it is. I didn't even know about continual forgiveness at that time. It didn't even come to my mind.

But apparently I preach continual forgiveness, but then another sermon I keep and now I'm out in the woods. And then I hear all these topics that come up and I'm supposed to understand something from this and the reason why it keeps coming up and up and up must mean that I don't understand it right. But it's never explained what I don't understand. So that's the question.

I mean, for instance, like the robe of righteousness. I've been a minister over at my house for a week. I translated a sermon in summer service, and he spoke there about the robe of righteousness and how it's perfect. It's Christ's righteousness. And boy, we all have to agree with that.

When we live of faith and Christ is our mediator, it's perfect. There's nothing we can do to make that any worse or better than it is. Nothing. Who can disagree with that? But apparently because of some of the things I've said, I apparently disagree with that. But that's not what I disagree with.

What I disagree with is that it would stop us from using grace gifts of confession. I would never want to minimize that for a second. I wouldn't be here as a believer today if it wasn't for confession. In spite of the fact that faith saves me, confession keeps me in faith. So yeah, if someone believes that I'm a battle for confession, of course I'm going to.

Wholeheartedly. I don't see it any other way. That's the confusion we have, dear brothers and sisters. That's why it's difficult talking. Because I can't come to every one of you one by one. I can't use the Church Law of Christ with every one of you I have a concern with. I'd be going from day to day to day to day.

And that wouldn't feel right. So I might as well sometimes just don't want to deal with it. Don't mean to. I told them at the minister's camp I stayed home from church, I stayed home from Bible class. I don't want to deal with it.

Just keep at the door of the church and wonder who's to come and say something or ask help or walk the other way. I know people who are fearful of what's going to come.

Mark, did you want to speak on that? Did you hear me? Yeah.

It looks like they lost the camera. I don't see you anymore. We should turn the volume up a little bit.

Okay, Joan made a statement that I had lied before the congregation. I'd like to know what she was talking about. Okay, so there was something, I clarified, I wasn't there. We were in St. Mary's services in Rockford. There was some discussion on the board about

Jared, he must know what it was. Some discussion, and he presented it to the congregation, and I guess it wasn't... No, I think I know what you're talking about. It was probably two years ago in the minister's camp. I think it was with the board. It was something with the board. What I read at the congregation was the minister's camp stumbling. Is that what you're talking about? In 2016? Yeah, I think so.

I don't know. Is that what it was? Okay, yeah? So, who else's question is it? I had heard you use that untruth information, though. What you said wasn't true, but I know. That's why I'm just wondering. That's why I'm asking these questions. I just think they're pertinent.

I don't think there's a discussion. I don't think there's a problem. Again, I don't think there's a problem here. I think there's a discussion, so we can get out and find out. We talked about it. It was clear here. One board member, I did call, because I heard that he was concerned. It was clear here.

It is distressing to hear the lack of trust that there is for the work of the Minneapolis Board, but I understand it because of the differences that have been there with the attorneys for a long time. They are against many different formats to take care of and clear, but they don't clear because there is a difference there and you can't hear anything really different.

Yeah, my doctor comes to talk here and there, but let me try.

Scott, we talked about such meetings and we discussed about the forgiveness and if there is a great time when God holds everything whole.

How Haapsaari explains that we went around, and he's about to explain how we leave, and he said that maybe it wasn't one, maybe it wasn't the other.

I've been wondering many times about that. How did that go?

I had discussion with this brother many times, and, you know, shortly after, and I don't know maybe before, but I knew that based on our discussions that we didn't have any difference in understanding that forgiveness is forgiveness, is this all or nothing.

But it was clear that it was troubling to Minneapolis before. It's the same kind of troubling theme has come up maybe some other times in our...

Now it's been for a while since that meeting and I've been replaying it again and again in my mind. The interesting thing is, just like Todd said that the person talked a lot about, and he was reading the Bible. He used many portions of the Bible trying to explain

And to be honest, I was with other brothers, I was impatient at the time, and it was late in the evening.

I don't know if it was in that meeting or one of our discussions, the one-on-one discussions, that Brother said, it does not matter how I believe, what matters is what Bible says. Even when he told this, I was trying to...

Give my guidance that, well, maybe you should just simply say how you would say that. But we kept saying that what the Bible says, that's what matters. That's what James was saying. When we discuss about this topic,

I'm not sure if it's always so fruitful to go around. How do you believe on this? How do you understand this? How do you, are we in unity in understanding this and that? It may be at that time I have.

I have no idea what the topic is. I have not, like Rick mentioned that he has read through many times that continents work and there's never even thought about what it is or what the topic is. So now we focus on how do you believe, how do you, I would rather ask you to explain or understand, how do you understand?

There's a danger that we pour again to this kind of what? Bible. Bible says.

And that's when the confusion comes, when we try to explain something that we don't even understand. And now then, the other brother might mishear us, or misunderstand, or I might mis-explain, and I'll be troubled.

Faith Bible and Discourse. What does Bible say about it? How is it explained in the writing? What does Luther say? What has been said in the Christianity? What? It will be after discussing that reality. I'm wondering if it will be

More constructive, and that's when, I don't know if we need to then go around, okay, to use this kind of understanding, exactly the same way Scott...

Then we all know what is written in the Bible publicly, whatever topic it is, and what has been taught in Christianity in the past. And maybe we should avoid these confusions. And now then, we will look at different topics.

Some of the discussions have gone out from board meetings. I think it's very much okay to discuss about the items that we discuss in the board meetings, but we, as board members, we have to be very careful that

We don't intentionally cause confusion and we don't maybe spread those details that might not, they might be dramatic, but maybe not that important.

And then also, that we remember still how the discussing name of our meeting was set thus forward previously.

Okay, I've got a number of names on our list here. I have Eric, Jared, Leia, Paul, and Dan. I don't know if anybody else wants to speak. Getting close to 1030, I don't know how late we want to stay here and visit. You know, I mean, I could go all night, and if you need me, that's necessary, but I know some of us have early callings in the morning, and...

You know, nonetheless, everybody's so molded we can't, we can't allow them to continue to live this life. I mean, I think there's some serious matters and concerns to do with that, you know, . Eric. .

But I think, I want to just really mention this one. In the discussion tonight, it was commented that the personality of the earth is coming true, that this is a personality that came from either God and the earth.

I'm sure that's a personality issue. We all have our own personalities, our own differences and so on. But I firmly believe that it's more than that. I think that if this community is just a personality issue, I wish it was. It's been rewarding for a long time.

I think it's more than that. And the reason I say that is that one of the years I've heard a discussion that some say I'm a John, others say I'm a George, others say I'm a Keith.

And I think going back and forward, some say I'm Paulus, some say I'm Peter, some say I'm Christ. And I think there was that kind of division and dispension in Corinth. And it's this way today. But I think it's one of the leaders that some say, I don't know.

That's not... I've prayed many, many times that it would never happen so that anyone would ever start to follow after me or any other minister. Because I've seen the sad results of that, where there have been followers of ministers through history, and good things have to happen.

One is that ministry has to fall, so one following it has to realize it's there. And you're putting that ministry at a very, you're putting that whole ministry at a really tough spot for the enemies to use it for their good. And so I think it's very careful that it's very important

There are those throughout the North American society who I know have followed the teachings of the indigenous. It's a dangerous thing. So that would be a message. But what's happened, and it's been two years especially, and this is where I think the Minneapolis board

I think you have a real challenge because there are those. There are those who are working around John and becoming somehow John's disciples because John proceeds to understand the scriptures, the theological, the dream theology, and therefore he's the answer man.

The person that only goes to John for answers in these things are putting our dear brother in great danger. So I think it's important that we take a step back and really consider that when we hear that kind of

The comments that are being made, and for those that I heard them from, I told them, it saddens me to hear that you think so highly of an individual and think so low of another individual, that you're comparing that gift that God has given. God has given our dear brother John abundant gifts. There's no question about that.

And may it be that God can keep him as a rule of law through God's kingdom.

I think that's the responsibility and duty even of Minneapolis before to try to care for them. And I know over the years New Year brothers have attempted to care for them. When I heard from that last Minneapolis orderly that there was this kind of accusation and thought that for the last 20 years John has been picked on.

I thought that your congregation in Minneapolis has elected boards every year. The board has assigned chairmen to serve. The congregation has carried these brothers through love, prayer, patience, encouragement to do their work, and now they're saying for the last 20 years all of those boards have been treating John wrong.

I have a tough time with it because the Minneapolis congregation is dear to me. They're dear brothers and sisters in faith to me. And I don't think that this is the case. That all of these years, those brothers who have tried to care for these matters have been totally denied it.

May God help us in these things. May God allow us to see where we are in these things. Because it is a dangerous place when somehow or the other, through our own weakness, through our own temptations, we start to talk of one brother for another.

May God help us. I've prayed myself. I love my new brothers, like my fellow speaking brothers, but I serve them. And I envy their gifts. I do. I wish I had every one of their gifts. And it's only for this purpose, of course, that I would become, you know, a Lutheran, and I would be more knowledgeable than the rest. But I want to cherish those gifts that God has given me in the right way.

That I can thank God for the gift that he's given to my brothers to serve, and to support them, to encourage them, and not be doing it in such a way that would feed their wrongdoings. And I think that also, when we look at the new forward in these things, that we need to carry the brothers and the servants that the High Nation has asked to serve, in prayer and with what you're doing.

Last weekend at camp, a spirit spoke to me. Another question in my mind. When I heard the speeches of my brothers there, I felt like Jesus. When the wolf that night, after watching the angels, he sent and sent death. I said, I assure you, this is the way to God. To heaven. Glory to God.

So, we live in a dark kingdom, and it may be that in a dark kingdom we really think that we are. If somehow those of you that have struggled would be able to be there at that ministry stand,

If somehow you would be able to be there and to listen to the LLC Board discussions and continue the discussions with folks, you would not find anyone there that thinks themselves to be a bit higher command, that you would find that they have great faith, trying to do the work that the congregation and the Heavenly Father would have to do.

I don't see at all this idea of self-righteous brothers. I see grace-makers. I don't see as law-minded brothers. I see grace-makers. I see those who are warned and encouraged and admonished about sin. It's important when we speak about sin. Sin is a damaging force.

God is death. It separates us from God. My brothers, the servants, have spoken about the dangers of death and I'm enjoying it that God has given them those kinds of gifts. I don't feel that he's demanding or law-minded. To me, a law-minded servant is putting something so heavy on somebody that they can't bear it and not offering any forgiveness for that.

I haven't heard anybody serve the North American Zion that has not offered the gospel at service. They've spoken about truth, they've spoken about grace, they've offered forgiveness for those sins that they've spoken about. To me, that's not law-minded at all. Law-minded would be speaking and preaching and teaching in such a way that would be so demanding that there would be no hope for the believer. That doesn't happen.

The enemy that is sick, as it happens, is only the lies of the enemy. And so, here, brothers and sisters, I pray so much so that God would open these things and reveal them. David asked, [search me, O God, and] know my heart, see if there be any evil or wicked ways in the way of life.

From our discussions that have taken place, there are those who we've spoken to. And when these matters come open in the retiring ages, and if God doesn't give those individuals a childlike heart and mind, they will be lost. They will be in perdition.

And that's a fearful thought to consider that your family and loved ones would ever lose you, especially if you were killed. God bless you.

Well, I guess I do want to speak to what Eric said. I don't mean to hear the gospel. I'm trying to help the other country. I'm trying to do it very heavily. I'm trying to hear the gospel.

It's a troubling time, isn't it? I'd like to just spread oil on the water and go away. Oh, dear brothers and sisters, I pray to God that we can take care of these veterans.

I think that's one of our basic things for our case, and that's something we should talk about. And when people want to take a break,

We live in forgiveness every moment, the same as grace. We can't live separate grace and forgiveness, we need to talk about both. We are at the same time, we are sinful and righteous. And if we didn't own forgiveness, we could not be believers, because we are all sinful. So every moment we can own the forgiveness

And why we can own forgiveness is through faith, that we can do anything, also we can do anything on our own to own that forgiveness. And that forgiveness is exactly the same as voter rights defense. We have a vote, we have forgiveness with us.

So we, and that's what we think that you live in that forgiveness every day, that that gives you that peace and joy. That you don't have to be scared, and God gave that gift of counseling for us. That we don't get both boys, that we don't even do it by ourselves, that we can be accepted by God. So endeavor is good at faith. It's not that by endeavoring or contemplating,

All of these are more acceptable for God. God doesn't see at the end of the day if we have saved a thousand times or ten times, or we have won fast a thousand times or ten times, but He sees if we have that faith.

I think that's why we are so joyful that we can own the forgiveness. And at least for me, that's why I don't need to be so concerned about everything.

I believe that I own the forgiveness, and I want to take care of my conscience that I don't feel that I can't, that I don't want to lose that faith that I have thought of so good. And I'm going to put all my soul to Christ, and that's where I focus. Christ, not anything else.

It is like, it's such a big thing that you think that you have it for people to be on it every day. It's like, it's amazing. I just think that's what gives us the team. At least for me. That's why I feel I love everybody here and I don't want to point, you know,

Anybody, you know, you know, when I bring up things, it's not towards anybody, but there is something that, and I feel like I have to say this, and I hope that most of you can, that it's not for anybody personally, and you can come to me, I hope then, but when we talk about what the most important part of the board is to kind of see this beautiful content, well,

I have always heard and learned that even the board is in the chair of the congregation. That the board is not watching the congregation does things right, but that the spiritual mother was the teacher of the congregation, same thing that the spiritual mother was the teacher of the ministry. I respect other ministries, I don't want to be there, but I think that when we think of all the people here,

The ministers are not any, they don't have any more tasks more than anybody else. We all are one. We all take care of each other. We all want to do it for ourselves. But what is the most important task for ministers is to speak word of God. Explain word of God for other people so they get married.

That's how I see it. Thank you. Thanks, Jeremy, for welcoming us here. I know this was kind of unplanned for us to come here. We did have some concerns and so on, and some of them did get a little late, unfortunately. But what it keeps coming back to is, and I think we can all agree on that,

On each doctrinal point, these areas of community-causing friction and so on is, let's see what the scripture says, and then let's try to agree on what the scripture itself is trying to say. And I think a lot of these bottles kind of go by, go to the wayside out by themselves. Because the longer these things tend to continue to go, as we start getting new encampments, we start digging our heels in, and the wealth starts,

I agree with everyone who has spoken here that there are serious problems here and that we want to take care of these. In my job, you handle an emergency first by silencing the bell, getting rid of the warning light out of your face, and the next thing you do is you identify what the problem is, and the next thing you do is you go to the checklist, you follow that checklist. Well, we're at that point where we're at the checklist.

We've got to identify the problems, but it appears that we already have, you know, in Eric's presentation. So maybe the checklist is revival. Pull that out. Let's not just talk about false revival, but actually pull it out. Look at those relevant verses that seem to address those points. And then agree on what we need. Because I think all of this other stuff is just useless, and it tends to divide us.

So, you know, for what it's worth, you know, I don't want to see anyone get lost. I certainly don't envy the job of being a speaker. Rick, you know, brought out some of the, you know, in private discussion also with Rick, and trust me, I don't envy his job. Then the other thing is this idea that, does my spirit agree with something?

Speaking for myself, I'm pretty careful with that. You know, it's always this way that, first of all, we go to the Bible, and then I read it, and I discuss with other believers, is my understanding on this portion correct, before I start passing judgment on it for myself, as far as how I intend to have my spirit to read with it. Okay, because the Holy Spirit in church is the Bible for us.

So, we have to be careful where we go with that, and then this idea that, what does the congregation say? Number one, it always starts with the first verse. We always have to start there. Okay, and then what does the congregation teach? This is tied to what the Living Word of God says. And that's where it all comes from. Rather than first of what does the congregation say, it's first what the Bible says.

And that requires an active looking at what the priest is saying, not some vague recollections, or what is my spirit answer to that, or what do I remember about that. And I think we've kind of gotten away from that. I know I have. So, go right ahead, please. Matt. It's pretty, uh... Still, uh...

I came here, I guess, because in my own part of confusion, and a little more confused. Probably going to be leaving here more confused. There's a lot of what's being said I can agree with.

Some of these topics, I guess one mainly is whether they're relevant to... I guess it probably is relevant to the situation that we're in because there's confusion not only with me, but everywhere I've been, every study that's came into my house, every car ride I've been in, everywhere in the last month, the discussion of faith.

And I don't know the answers. And I guess I would like to be able to just read the Bible, but more than so I'd like to be able to just trust and ask other believers and ministers. And even in talking to

Ministers in the last weeks have been told very clearly that, yes, you do stay in the robe of righteousness. And now I hear again tonight that that's Christ. They know you don't stay in that. So this is more confusing for me.

Like, yeah, I just kind of want to, also want to hear the gospel. Thank you.

Keith. I just first say to what Ben said about the robe of righteousness, and that question is left text from Revelation.

This has been explained in different ways in the picture. We talk about the robe of righteousness. We're talking about Christ's righteousness. Of course, that can't be explained. But we follow these things. We need to care about your conscience.

And I think as long as we understand that in that basic way, you know, that's the important matter. That text thing has been explained in different ways, and so I think that it's important in that that we don't get

Who stuck on the pictures in the Bible that sometimes can be explained in different ways? But the important thing is that

I think in the battles and the concerns that we don't go to this side, that I'm saved by the righteousness of Christ, but I don't think we care for the conscience. That's the concern that is being brought out in these discussions. I'll try not to use any more time on that. First of all, I just want to say that I feel very tired. Many, many weak words.

Weak words about the discussion, weak words about our board meetings and the difficulties we've had, and just very, very simple, and I want to pass it to Kimberly.

I want to try to address the question that's been asked of me, and I thought that it might be asked, and I want to be open about it. John is not here, and so I'm a little reluctant to speak, but I guess if that's what the desire is, I will try to speak to what's in my heart.

And try not to focus on John because I think that some of the concerns that I have are not only about John. But first of all, I'd say to you, Joni, that

He indicated that when the Finnish brothers were here, what is it now, a year ago, that somehow the LLC brothers were corrected and after that they got the right understanding but didn't inform the congregation of that. I just have to say that's false.

We agreed with the Finnish brothers wholeheartedly, and as Timur Lipton and the Swedish brothers said when he left to depart, his closing parting words were that there wasn't even a wrinkle between us.

And that's the way it was from the start. It was not that somehow we were corrected on matters and then we didn't perform the congregation. So I want to be open about that. But dear brothers, first of all, and dear friends that are here, many of you that have known from

And your dear friends and your dear brothers and sisters in faith for me, as is John, if not here, I hold you as a dear brother in faith and Janelle as well. But yes, there have been differences, there have been concerns, and they have spanned many years.

We've discussed them, as Jared mentioned, on the board. Different board members have come and gone and discussed matters, concerns, and not only been my concerns.

And I know that this is often pictured as personality difficulty between Keith and John. Yes, we're very different people. And so what? John can be who he is, and I hope I can be who I am. That doesn't matter to me. But the concerns that I have are not personality issues or power struggles. I have to say that that's the way I feel in my heart.

And I feel like it's been brought out here that the issues that we've been discussing for about two and a half, three years now are not the, there's something more here. They're not the issues that are causing these problems. We've discussed

Multiple issues over the years and come to agreement, moved on, but it seems like the issues have become a vehicle for the unrest. The issues have somehow become perhaps a vehicle to criticize because they change. They continuously change.

And I have no problem, Risto, with you bringing out what you did. You asked me when we were in that kitchen there. I'm before the face of God and before the congregation of God. And yes, I can care, and I want to be cared for. So I have, it's okay, let's be open, and I want to be open and cared for in God's congregation. But when I speak now,

I want to say that the believers are troubled. Are troubled over John. And this came out at the minister's camp. The brothers that were there know that. It was openly discussed. It's not only Keith's concern.

And the concerns came up from brothers that were not coming back or serving LSD. And so I would say that I think we need to ask ourselves this question, why are the believers troubled? Why is the congregation divided?

Because when matters are right, the sheep hear the voices of the good shepherd, and there aren't divisions, and there aren't concerns. I feel like John and others are battling law-mindedness.

When I have asked John if he feels there's law-mindedness in North American Christianity, he said no, or remembering the conversation that Walt had with John. But at any rate, he said no, he doesn't feel that way. But he continuously speaks about the 70s and 80s, about the law-minded heresies of the past,

And John has said that he feels that what he's quoting is how he believes. And I believe that. And so, the stuff that is continuously quoted, I have to believe that that's where John's concerns lie. It feels to me like John is battling law-mindedness,

And emphasizes grace, which is very important to emphasize, but to the point that righteousness of life and endeavor of faith is where he's spoken of. The other concern that I have is how John views God's kingdom, the care of the mother. When John has been asked,

When believers have talked to John about concerns that they've had, even about their awkward discussions, John has answered, well, feelings don't mean anything to me. Show me a scripture where I'm wrong. But, brothers and sisters, the Spirit of God works in God's children. And if the believers are concerned,

There's reasons we concern. And we can't dismiss it just because someone says that if you can't prove it with Scripture, then I won't listen to it. I won't hear that. And I think Roland spoke to that same thing there. And I think that's something that we have to take stock of.

Yes, the concern I have is that one of the concerns of the congregation, I feel, the congregation of God as a whole, they're concerned about John and about others, and it's important that we hear the voice of the Spirit that speaks in the congregation.

The other thing that Jared already spoke to here, I was very concerned at our annual meeting about the Minneapolis First emphasis. I've never heard that before in our congregation annual meeting.

And that permeated two different discussions about money, about the spiritual matters. Minneapolis First is felt very foreign. God's congregation, as we mentioned here, is the entire congregation of God.

I was concerned also about the thought of not having this meeting because Minneapolis should deal with its own matters first. But the concerns, some of the concerns that were raised with regard to this meeting were Minneapolis members including John that spoke in Rockford that caused concern there. And so,

The Rockford brothers, as I understood it, had concerns about these things and it mattered in the broader sense as well. And I feel like, why wouldn't we speak to dear brothers and sisters and together, as we always have with our sister congregation, openly discuss these matters. I feel like

In John, as well as in some of you dear brothers and sisters that are here tonight, is you're battling law-mindedness. And yet I think that if that's the concern that we have, that there's law-mindedness, let's discuss it. Let's discuss the problems that you see.

And visit openly about it and care for one another in that regard. Of course, any one of us can at times be harsh. Any one of us can at times get too focused on confession, too focused on do's and don'ts. What have you? We are faulty in that way as well.

And we need to discuss matters. But I feel like there's some root to that. And the two thoughts that I'm concerned about is this battle against law-mindedness and the something missing in the understanding of the congregation.

We've heard a lot tonight about the Word of God being the highest authority, which it is. But if we separate the Word from the congregation, we are lost. Christ is the Word. Christ came into the flesh. The Bible says in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God.

And Christ is God and Christ is the Word. Christ is the head of the congregation. The congregation is the body. We can't separate the Word from the congregation. So it concerns me when there's such emphasis on the Word and not connecting it to the congregation and the Spirit of God that opens matters in the congregation. Opens the Word.

They're inseparable. And that focus on the Word, as important as the Word is, concerns me. I have to say, it concerns me. If we separate the Word from the congregation, I think the danger is that we give ourselves license to understand matters differently than the Spirit of God teaches in the congregation of God.

I also have to say that this discussion of the Watchmen on the Walls, and I discussed this with John as well, and we discussed, I think, all of these things, nearly all of these things that are important to me in multiple times. But I feel like this concern about the Watchmen on the Walls

Yes, we are all watchmen in our own places of watching, in our families, in our lives, and the believers around us. But as Eric said in his presentation, God has set some. God has set some. God has called and set. And to be offended over that,

That the Watchmen being compared to the ministers on the walls of Zion, it feels to me like there's some criticism of the ministers that is driving that. I have to be open and honest about that policy. So, these are my concerns.

And there are other things as well, but more specific and I don't need to get into them here. But in a general sense, that's what I'm concerned about. And if I'm overly concerned, as Risto and perhaps others have mentioned, I want to be cared for and corrected in that. But that's how I see matters, that's how I feel.

And I want to be, I want to get to heaven. I want to be cared for. But I'm very concerned about the situation. I have to say that. And if it's all watching, I want to care for them. Again, I ask if I can believe my sin.

I'll try to be brief with my comments, but I'll try to be brief with my comments.

I think back when I was then-based, all these questions about robe of righteousness and continual forgiveness and watchmen on the walls. I never heard about them at the youth. I never heard about them even until more recent years in these discussions. And why?

I had to ask myself, why now? So many questions. It's probably the elders that we heard in Eric's presentation. I'm one of those elders. Because here it is. Our lives are... I've always been believing wrong all my life. And I don't think that's the case.

I wouldn't be in God's kingdom if I hadn't fallen into the right place. It's because my brothers and sisters have encouraged me since they took me to St. Joseph. When I go to hear God's Word, it services my spirits as I long have. When I recently have heard new understandings and new messages, I leave trouble.

And what's happening, it seems like the enemy is getting sidetracked on these side issues and debating the Bible and having these different beginnings of the core matters of faith. Somebody has said, you know, that we take care of our own.

And I'll say it this way, was full to me powerfully as a young person when an unbeliever came to our services there in a small congregation in Saskatchewan. And they were asking these questions, and asking these questions, and asking these questions, and we were doing our best to explain them with the Bible.

And I have to say to myself, it's getting frustrating trying to explain these answers. There was a Finnish brother there, keeping services, and he was having a side conversation, but he stopped and he said, well, what's the discussion? Could you share that with me?

Translated, explained some of these questions and everything. And he just came back to the person and he said, he said, you have many questions. He said, could I ask one question? And the person said, sure. And the question was, are you a sinner? And he said, no. He said, well, I just came to the question. And he said, no.

The gospel was preached. There wasn't any more questions. I don't think we can understand matter if we're trying to find it with our own mind and reason. I think we simply believe as a child. Look at your own children. Look at the children in God's team.

Watch them in Sunday school and watch them at church this Sunday. Are they believing? They are believing. Do they have great understanding? No, they don't have great understanding. But they believe their sins are forgiven. And that's what matters. They're ready to preach the gospel when the minister asks for the gospel. Those little hands are up there.

I think if we could focus on that, as we've heard through several speeches, take care of our own matters and let God guide our lives. How beautiful are the people who preach the gospel. Isn't that what the Bible says?

We see brothers and sisters, as brothers and sisters in faith are asked for us on the way into communion.

That's how I fully spend all my life, simply in the care of the gospel. And I think you can too. My heart goes out because so many of our young are fearful and troubled and wondering.

Get sidetracked on these issues and debates and talking about people and talking about issues. And why? Because we are. Can we? We've spent, now, how many hours here in several times, seven, five, six hours, talking about people. Talking about doctrinal issues. What about sin? What did our brother Elmer used to often say? Are there any [grace] beggars here?

Do we need to put a later sentence in Jesus' name and precious blood? And I know I certainly do. Can I please like this? Forgive me. Forgive me. Forgive me. Forgive me. Forgive me.

For our sins, our sins are forgiven. Go down and do the same. It's very important. Go on with peace.

Regarding people of understanding, their own understanding or whatever, I think it's important that we do read people and look at what the scripture says. Even Luther,

That we are not free from blame if we have wronged faith and followed false teachings. The fact that we did not know will be of no help to us.

Well, we were warned beforehand that besides God's goal is to judge what this or that person sees. And he did understand that if we fail to do this, we are lost. Therefore, it is the goal of salvation that each person depends on his knowing of what is God's word and what is Paul's teaching. So, I think what he's saying is

We do need to look at what Scripture says. We can't just blindly follow or just willy-nilly just follow what man says. The congregation, like it or not, is made up of a bunch of sinners and faulty human beings that we care.

So it's so personal and you have to know what is right and what is wrong. Talk about this very thing.

In this one, John chapter 4, verse 3, it says,

It's so important for all of us to open Scripture and steal Scripture. Scripture is the guide of faith. The Holy Spirit will never ever guide or teach anything other than the religion of Scripture. The direct revelation from God ended

After Jesus ascended into heaven. And all we have to go by is God. It is God. It is the Holy Spirit. And any decision made in the congregation must be based on what God words to you in the scripture.

You know, it's getting to be 11.15 at night. I don't know any intentions. We'll just keep going round and round here a little bit. I hate to cut anybody short. There's a lot of speaking terms. So, if there's any others that want to turn, I think. So,

I want to share about God's Word and using God's Word and basing it to help us in matters that we have not known before. We believe that believers have been damaged through that using God's Word.

We try to understand matters under the light of God's will and to receive in humility what the word of God has to say on these matters. It is noted how in questions of these matters we may have to forebend on how

You know, perhaps one brother has many, many quotes of Scripture, which I think each one of us would want to believe in all the quotes which come from Scripture. And I would have faith that even the rest of us involved in this discussion together

We hadn't ever wanted to put our trust in the Holy Spirit, but we have faith. We have faith, which we've been given as well. And I have to admit,

That when it comes to the gifts of knowing the scriptures, some individuals have that just before their lives. It is for some reason, like, how God is living. And I don't know why.

I have wondered with myself because I have felt so small in understanding these matters even when looking at the Holy Word of God. Yet even I wanted to remember this scripture and see what it says.

For us in this time, many of us are former members. Now, a lot of you just seem to be very small script supporters along the way, which means it's not great understanding of any of the things I might desire.

He wants to know what the Scripture says. And I believe in all these matters. God has been giving, through his condemnation, body through the power of the Holy Spirit, the understanding which the children need. And when I have tried to understand

I have more often found that my understanding is so weak and small when it comes to Scripture. But I have had this thought that the Spirit of God of the congregation, the Mother of God, can help me to see. Even if I can't understand all of Scripture,

And I think that's how the children of God watch each other give in to our lives in your peace.

We came to realize that the Scripture is always different. So I can even share this with us, that our small understanding is that when we look through a glass and it's dark, but that's how our understanding is in many ways matters.

But I believe across these years that God is in the foundation of God to teach and help all of us small children even understand the little parts

That we would need to understand so that we could travel day by day to heaven. So I must admit that my understanding is that God's only word for us is small, and I want to endeavor as a child of God, trusting in Him.

That teaching which will come into each one of us through the power of the Holy Spirit takes a life through a belief in the Holy Scripture and a belief that God has been trying to simply teach His children of these matters and the Holy Scripture has been to

Thanks for all my faith in the religious issues, fear, and treachery. I believe in God. Thank you.

I came tonight with a heavy heart and a worrisome heart, and I have to say I'm still very, very troubled. Of course, it's nice to visit and have these discussions, but there is something that's very, very wrong and very, very troubling.

Dale was speaking earlier. I had the same kind of thought. I'm so overwhelmed at the occasion that I hardly know which way to turn.

One matter, for example, that came up was this somehow criticism of talking about heresy. And I did have an occasion a few months ago where the other came to me and he said, why do you guys talk about heresy so much? Do you want a heresy to happen? And I was so troubled by what happened.

Sometime later, we had a chance to visit more of all these people and said, you know, if we hear, if the speaker is speaking about this, because of the dangers that he sees, do we want to listen to what the dangers are and warning signs, or do we want to silence the conversation?

I feel like with this kind of thought, instead of wondering what is it that's prompting us to speak about the warnings and the dangers, we're trying to silence them and not to speak about them.

It's not here about scriptures. Of course, we all, I'm sure, agree that the scriptures have the highest authority. They're open to us through the power of the Holy Spirit. All the churches around us also use the Bible, but what's different is in that kingdom of the Holy Spirit that opens that word in such a living word.

And there's this implication, well, that what's used in the Bible now, that isn't about these matters, is that we haven't been using the Bible. When in fact, I have not been to any discussion, any meeting, any congregation occasion when the Bible hasn't been used and quoted on many occasions. Right? I can't accept this fact that

We've been discussing these important topics without referring to the Bible. So, it isn't that we aren't using the Bible, it's that we aren't understanding the Scriptures at the same place. And that's where this is so troubling and so concerning.

And these matters, not that they haven't been discussed, we've had kind of these meetings and we've had articles that tilt the, our summer winter services presentation and so on, have all been on topics that we've hoped and prayed would provide a good foundation and a wholesome occasion where God's children can visit about these concerns.

And I can only feel that what has been said hasn't been accepted in the meeting.

This portion of God's word is supposed to hold, in my mind, how the revelation of Jesus spoke many times when those churches, angels of the churches, were experiencing difficulty. May that happen to you. May the heroes of the church say that to you.

Do that at the end of the year when you hear that the Spirit of God is with you. Pray that you get here when the Spirit of God is with you. The Church is going to be busy in the congregation.

I also hear these thoughts, this thinking about previous heresies, for the fallen, for righteousness, for being in salvation, for confession, and so on. I can't help but feel like the reason those come up is because of those that we have left out present.

And in and amongst our congregations that God has given us. And, of course, one is in that, you can't see it yourself, but I say that, that I haven't seen, that I haven't heard that preached. I haven't felt it, and yet,

Because these topics are being driven with such power, it can only feel like there's something wrong that needs to be corrected. And so that's where I'm struggling. What is it that's wrong that's trying to be corrected? And the ministers can't...

It was so, so wonderful. And we haven't been happy about anything spoken to it. When...

Well, I can't add to what the brothers have said. I'm so thankful that when we spoke about these matters,

Again, I've spoken tonight in a simple way. Brother after brother after brother said, I say amen. And a couple of brothers even commented how it brought tears to their eyes to hear a simple explanation in this time where there's so much confusion.

And yet, it was over an essay that all others said it was safe on them. And so, when I related my personal feelings about that camp to others, I said that

I'm thankful for what God gave. The Holy Spirit was there. And with these, the explanation and the discussion about these matters, there were brothers who found they had cared and were given grace to

We ask forgiveness, and we pray that God's work would continue. So that all would be of one mind. That's still my prayer tonight.

So I only say that, as Steve mentioned, there's been a lot of emphasis on just belief. And of course, we can't disagree or don't agree with that.

We have a triune God that's one, a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit. And Pastor Ray said that the body of Christ is one of the bodies of Christ. And yet all of us are one. And it feels like things haven't been in the right place in some of the teachings that we've heard.

I think the question is, where do we go from here? I mean, I think there's still matters that aren't clear, and there's matters that need to be cared for.

Don't let them dirty at night. I think it would be good to close this meeting at this point, but I also understand that the matters are not clear here in this room.

People who may speak or be named in a great way. If that's not the case, it's more of a fact to share. I guess my plan would be, if you ever accuse the board of being misguided, or that they're just greedy, that they're going to be willing to charge you for any sort of aid or what, that would be awesome. I don't know if there's any discussion. I don't know. If the board is going to have an action, I don't care.

I think I would ask the area or the national sports, you have this meeting coming up on the 15th of May. I mean, do you need help there at that meeting from here this evening, or? Well, I would invite everybody to come out with one of my talks. Would that be helpful? I don't know. So, two.

That was our hardship of actually getting it together. There's something that we can do. We have a vision in the industry. Well, maybe we'll collaborate and collaborate here together.

I don't know if anybody has any concerns. They certainly can feel free to call me, email me, whatever.

So I think we'll close with [Song] No. 430 and Nathan Hall. I thought that these two words, from our Lord and Savior Jesus,

Verily I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands on them, and blessed them. Dear brothers and sisters, I lift your hearts tonight to find you today, all in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

May we give each of you the time and attention that you need. May you give us hearts and minds that we seek you, feel you, feel you. May you give us ears to hear and feel you.

And not the real son of God, but the only son of God, the only son of God. And that you, sacrifice in the name of God, that each one of us, all of us, give God to you so much to live for, and so we will live for.

Lord, bless us. Lord, lead the faith, gentlemen, upon us in the gracious name. Lord, lift up thy confidence upon us in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

I have not understood.