Minneapolis Congregation Meeting, May 31, 2018

Welcome to the continuation of our congregational discussion. We will begin with song number 163.

Grace from our God of Grace. Peace from our Easter Prince of Peace.

May they increase for each and every one of us in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Let's quieten in an opening prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, we, your children, have gathered this evening to discuss matters of your kingdom. So we humbly ask, Father, for your presence, your blessing,

And that you would move us with the power of your Holy Spirit to speak those things which are according to your will and which edify our faith and edify your congregation. Dear Father, you know that we are weak, failing, and sinful.

But we humbly ask that you would bless this meeting for the honor and glory of your holy name. And we pray as your Son has so taught us, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen.

So what I've been asked to attempt to do, dear brothers and sisters, is to use this presentation that our dear brother Jim Frantti kept at minister's camp and then, as well as I can,

describe it these issues that way the way that he did and then I depend on the other brothers who were there to fill in those things where I had forgotten something and then I would like to

As well as I can describe for you our response at camp to this discussion. So Jim titled his presentation, Current Work and Conditions in Zion. He started with the LLC office updates. You are probably all very well aware of these. Matt Keranen is coming to take Walt Lampi's place as publications.

Taking Rod's place and then there's a position to be filled. He talked about the mutual work and the meetings with the SRK and the SFC. He described how this interaction is becoming so, if you will, almost continuous that there's weekly communications between the organizations.

Different matters of the work that we're working together on. And then I need to add an issue that came up in one of the meetings here, and that is that there is a, I don't know how many of you heard it, perhaps not many of you, but there is nevertheless a lie circulating about

Supposedly the SRK had to come and teach the LLC. That is patently false. There has been no such difference between the understanding of the brothers. They have been, as one brother from Sweden said, not even a wrinkle on the tabletop of difference in understanding on any of the issues that they have discussed.

And then of course our facilities and facilities work is just, it's impressive how across the whole Zion of America facilities are being purchased, built, modified, as you all know. And then in addition to that, the mission work is expanding in the many different areas that we travel to with the other brothers.

So then, first of all on this issue of forgiveness, which we have discussed quite a bit, but could there ever be a situation in which God's children cannot preach the gospel? Let me back up. Jim started this and he said, dear brothers at camp, what I'm going to do is tell you how I believe.

I want you to tell me how you believe. And so the response to Jim from the brothers was responding in that sense of their understanding and agreement with what he was presenting. And as he described it,

There could be such situations. They have happened in the past and they certainly could happen in the future. The message of God's kingdom is nevertheless one of forgiveness through the gospel. That is what we preach, God's forgiveness by our gospel. So these situations are clearly the exception

And not the rule. Jesus, of course, gave us the keys to his kingdom, as he told his own. And he gave two keys to them, as he still has those keys in effect today. But God's congregation is quick to loose and slow to bind.

This has been the way the Spirit has always instructed. But both are used in love and are part of the complete gospel. How can a person receive forgiveness of sins?

Forgiveness happens through the preaching of the gospel. Faith comes by hearing. Through that preaching, God accepts the forgiveness here on earth as his forgiveness in heaven. Another question that has come up is, is there forgiveness in the sacraments?

The sacraments are not a place of new birth nor of forgiveness or absolution. Living under grace versus continual forgiveness. This

First started or came up at a MBMAC meeting, mission meeting, Midwest Mission meeting a couple years ago where a brother said that he believes that his sins, past, present, and future are already forgiven. And he claimed that all I have to do is believe that.

And it seemed like such an attack against the use of the gospel. Sins are atoned for, but I need forgiveness.

This next issue is the question of the robe of righteousness. Can the believer's robe ever be stained? Christ's righteousness is perfect and is not blemished by our sins.

But sin stains the conscience. This is what we've all experienced. And there are of course multiple biblical examples. Washing of the robes, washing of the feet,

The encouragement or the instruction to put away sin is found in many places in the Word of God. And Jim has listed several of them here. I would just note Hebrews says, being compassed about with a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight. Revelation 7, those who came out of great tribulation and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The next issue is this question of watchmen on the walls of Zion. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, first letter, twelfth chapter, that God has set some into special duties. There is a diversity of gifts and duties that God has set. It is His calling.

Paul instructed the elders in Ephesus, as recorded in Acts 20, that take heed unto yourself and unto all the flock over which God hath made you overseers. Servants and the elders have a duty to watch. So this does not elevate those who serve.

Even Jesus said that, who is greater, he who sits at meat or he who serves? Paul wrote in Corinthians 4.9, For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last.

Then Jim discussed other topics that have raised, come up with questions and concerns. One is acceptance of children and birth control. God is the creator of life. Children are his gift. And then this question of self-righteousness.

Or law-mindedness. The unfortunate use of this title or label has come from those who have attempted

Because they didn't like the rebuke over sin to label somebody with a label such as this as if giving themselves license to avoid listening to that rebuke or taking heed of that rebuke. Another one is the office of the Holy Spirit.

As scripture says, he that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches. Now the question of how do I view God's kingdom? Is it a golden candlestick? All of gold. The prophet, when he said,

The angel that came and talked to me awakened me as one awakened out of their sleep. Then he asked, what do you see? And Zechariah said, I see a candlestick all of gold. He fell asleep on his own place of watching. The problem wasn't with the congregation, it was his problem. But he had a wonderful escort and so do we have wonderful escorts.

It is the pillar and ground of truth, throng of saints. It is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. That is the completion of Jim's presentation. So then we went on and discussed

The rest of the day. In other words, from about 10.30 in the morning till 10 at night. Hours and hours and hours of brothers expressing their thoughts, their feelings, their responses. And brother after brother after brother

I told Jim, my heart says amen, or my spirit answered amen, or some said I was rejoicing in my heart during the presentation. Some brothers did not say amen. But by the end of the day, as the day was drawing to a close, one of those brothers' speeches caused

All of us to feel that need for the gospel. And I will say that every single brother who took a turn to speak asked for the gospel. There wasn't a single brother who didn't do that. And the gospel was preached in abundance throughout the whole camp. But in the evening after that brother's speech,

Brother after brother after brother asked for the gospel and the gospel was preached as if God was melting us into one heart. But then when the brother said, the Holy Spirit has been speaking to me at this camp, I have been battling against the congregation, and he asked for the gospel. Dear brothers and sisters, that's when rejoicing broke out at camp.

I couldn't contain it. The joy was so great and so overflowing, how God had given the victory to the power of His Spirit. But just think, in spite of that overwhelming power and might and emotions that we experienced, the next day a brother said, it was so sad the way it went last night. Sad.

We were rejoicing. Why was he sad? Wasn't he with us in the same? Didn't he say amen? If I could, I would dump that joy that we all experienced on camp into each and every one of your hearts, dear brothers and sisters. I know I can't. You weren't there. You didn't experience it as we experienced it. But I just wanted to express how powerful the Spirit responded at camp.

My dear brother Mike's going to moderate the discussion, and I want you to feel free to express what's on your heart. But I wanted to make sure you understand at least how I experienced camp, and I know the other brothers can also say how they experienced that. So, Mike.

Is this on, Russ? Okay. Good evening everyone.

God's peace. As Russ said, feel free. I have a pen and a paper, just like everybody always says, and so I'll write your names down as you raise your hands. And, John, there's a roving mic. Pat, you have the mic?

Okay, John Lehtola. So I only used one short speech on Saturday, and that was on one small topic, and I'll get into it a little bit later.

I personally don't have the practice of saying amen to what the previous brothers said, amen, amen to the previous speeches. It's just not what I have ever done. And I don't know that there is a litmus test and didn't know that there was a litmus test at speaker's camp to say that you should say amen to Jim Frantti's speech.

I didn't have, basically, an issue with it. The only point I brought out was, I will get into it, but I want to touch on all the points. So, the only thing is, in my mind, I, as I said, for the most part, agreed with it, but if I would have done it, I would have made a few minor changes, and I'll go through them now.

So the first topic is forgiveness. And this came up in 2011 at MDMAC. And one brother stated, referring to the 1980s, when there were times during the caretaking meetings when someone asked for forgiveness and it wasn't preached. And he was asking, was that right?

Because some people had said that God closes the mouths. So he was throwing that out as a question. And so I spoke to that a couple of times back in 2011. And I said, those cases at those caretaking meetings in the 1980s were wrong. Forgiveness shouldn't have been withheld. And that's our position statement, 2011.

October. It says that that was a doctrinal error that occurred in Finland and also in America. So then that question was then expanded. Is there ever a time? Could there ever possibly be a time? Well, we as human beings can't search and don't know God's intentions. It's impossible. So God is

Higher than the heaven is above the earth. Could God cause and allow such a situation where forgiveness wouldn't be preached? It's impossible for us to know that. We'll leave that in God's hands. So this topic was talked about two years ago at Ministers Camp. And in summary of Ministers Camp, Jim Frantti said, it was at Saturday evening, he said,

Let us err on the side of always wanting to preach the gospel. And that's where it got left in my mind. So that's forgiveness. Keys. There are the keys of releasing and the keys of binding. And first of all, keys of binding, as Jesus, when he sent out his 70 disciples to go out in the mission work,

And he said that when you come into a city and if they accept you and receive you, take them in. But if they don't, then say the kingdom of God has approached you and brush off the dust off your feet and go on your way and say the kingdom of God had approached. So those unbelievers in that situation, when they rejected the gospel, they found themselves.

Okay, what about in caretaking situations? In Corinthians, it mentions that there's one person who was living in open fleshly sins. Was he committing adultery with his father's wife or something like that? But anyways, he was committing deep, severe fleshly sins. And so that was brought to the attention of the assembly.

And then it was shown to him, and we can now extrapolate to a general situation, that binding is only used passively. It's never used actively. You can check.

1979, Rautio Savi Summer Services, [Juhani Uljas'] presentation where he talks about binding. He says, a believer cannot take the faith of another person away. That is not right. That is called active binding. The only type of binding there is is passive binding. So in that situation of that person mentioned in the Corinthians, in the letter to the Corinthians where he had been living openly

In fleshly sins and yet been trying to confess that he is a child of God, they said that your life shows, indicates, that that lifestyle is not the life of a believer. You cannot be a believer and doing those types of things. And so we want to acknowledge that you have already bound yourself, so he had already bound himself, and the congregation then passively acknowledges that

You are, we cannot greet you and keep you as a believer. So the binding, keys of binding are never used as a means or a tool of authority and a means of power over another person. Never. So that's about keys. Continual forgiveness, and this is the only short comment that I made, and I have 20, 30, 40,

Going all the way back from the 1920s up to today and even in Luther's small catechism and in Luther's large catechism where he talks about we live in continual forgiveness. You can check the explanation through the third article of the creed, small catechism. He says in this Christendom we daily believe our sins forgiven in great abundance.

And then he even says it more clearly in the explanation to the third article of the creed in the large catechism. And so we are completely sinners, sinful. Every human being has inherited sin. We will never become pure. We'll never reach a pure condition on our own part. It's impossible.

So we are righteous by Christ Jesus. That is the new man which we own by faith. The new man is pure, it is holy, it is sinless, and it will never commit sin. It's impossible. Christ will not commit sin. So we own Christ Jesus by faith.

And we are heaven acceptable through his merits. And so we still have this old Adam, the old portion, which has not made repentance and never will make repentance. So we have this continual battle, the new man, battle against the old man, and what a wretched man I am, says Paul, who will deliver me from this body of sin and death.

And so, because we are carrying two portions, we commit sin daily, momentarily, momentarily, in word, in thought, and in deed. Momentarily in word, in thought, in deed. So what then carries us in faith? If it was dependent

On the amount of times we ask for forgiveness, we would have to have the blessing hands of the gospel over us 24-7. But we live in the merits of Christ Jesus by faith. We live in righteousness by faith at every moment. And through his merits by faith, we are acceptable to heaven and acceptable before God, the Heavenly Father.

And so in visiting with believing brothers in Finland about this, they said, this is how Finland believes. And if you there in America, some, do not believe that, you are believing differently than Finland Christianity believes. There is no wrinkle, as we heard, in doctrine and faith and understanding between America, Finland, and Sweden.

Robes of righteousness. Basically, this is the same topic. Christ Jesus is the robe of righteousness. He is perfect. He is sinless. He is blameless. Christ Jesus cannot commit sin. It's impossible. So if the robe of righteousness is Christ Jesus, it's impossible for the robe of righteousness to become stained. Literally impossible.

But this is a picture, this is a metaphor, and it has been used that our robes become stained. Well, Christ can't become stained. What then becomes stained? Our conscience becomes stained. Our feet become dusty and dirty. Sin attaches, clings, and makes the journey slow. We are carrying two portions, and we become weary, we stumble, we err.

We need the gospel again and again, daily on our walk and our journey of faith. So this doesn't mean once a believer, always a believer. No. This doesn't mean we never need to hear the gospel more than once in our life. No. This doesn't mean that we don't need the grace, gift, or confession. Yes, we do. We have this grace privilege.

But when coming to the throne of grace to use the grace gift of confession, we don't become any more holy. We don't become any more righteous. We don't become any better before the face of God, the Heavenly Father. Christ has done everything. We can't improve on what Christ has done. But we do it. We use the grace gift of confession so we wouldn't become weary, battle-stricken,

And eventually fall from faith. Watchmen on the walls. Sure, God has chosen some as ministers to preach for the congregation, but all are watchmen on the walls, watching on the walls for the enemy if and when it is to approach from without to attack God's kingdom.

As one Finnish brother said that, if only the ministers were watchmen on the walls, who then would care for the ministers if and when they would err, stumble, and fall? So in this sense, we are all watchmen on the walls. Yes, ministers have been chosen to do this special task in the congregation.

Birth control. As the new pastor in Phoenix said, that a mother with health problems and issues doesn't have to throw herself in front of a train. Another Finnish brother who recently was here said that a mother when she's caring for her health is not birth control. But if a mother

If she wants to spend more time in the Grand Cayman and then does such things, then that is birth control. So caring for the health is not birth control. And a mother doesn't have to be a martyr. Self-righteousness and law-mindedness, we all have our struggles. Some have the tendency to go to the left side of the road.

Some have the tendency in their life to go to the right side of the road. Everyone has their own personal, personal struggles. And some may waver one direction and then maybe the next day or soon thereafter waver the other direction. We have a narrow pathway that we are walking on.

So it's like walking on a plank, if you look at it in a metaphorical sense, that if you try to make it across that plank without falling, and you begin to look just to the left side, you find yourself falling off of the right side of the plank. If you find yourself looking and not wanting to fall off to the right side, then you fall easily then to the left side. But how do you make it across that plank?

When you focus and fix your gaze there, out in the distance, and out in the distance is Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. And by focusing our gaze in what Christ Jesus has done, he will bring us safely one day to the destination. How do we view God's kingdom? God has a kingdom here upon this earth. And as Luther says in the explanation to the third article of the Creed,

It is like a mother which gives us spiritual birth. It is a place where we are fed. It is a place where we are nourished. It is a place where we are cared for. The way that goes to heaven goes through the kingdom of God. Christ Jesus resides only within his kingdom. Outside of the kingdom of God there is no hope, there is no life, there is no forgiveness, there is no salvation. But where there is

There is Christ Jesus, there is life, and there is salvation, and there is where our escorts are. So basically about law-mindedness, I've been said that, it's been said of me that I speak too much about maybe the large firstborn or the small firstborn heresy. What does that mean, too much or a lot?

You can, in my opinion, mention the total heresy 10, 20, 30 times, but it seems, in my opinion, if you mention the small firstborn and the large firstborn heresy once, it seems like perhaps it's one time too many.

So I don't think that I have been emphasizing too much the dangers of the right side of the road or the large firstborn or the small firstborn heresy I have at times, but I don't think that I've been doing it in overabundance. Just a small point of information. We're not broadcasting this meeting

We're not recording this meeting, and so if you would refrain from recording this meeting, that would be good. So, who's next? Dave Tokanek.

Yeah, I just guess I just wanted to agree with the statement that we are all watchmen on the walls. We can all fall asleep. We need to stay watchful. And also, I don't think there's anyone in this room who has perfect understanding. And we won't have perfect understanding until we reach home. So that's all I have to say.

Well, I think we decided that I don't have to say that. Yeah, I totally agree with John. I've been living here for four years now, and I feel so sad.

I feel so sad how people treat each other, how they humiliate people in front of the congregation. I mean, I lived in Helsinki when I started, and I went to Helsinki congregation to listen to services.

I don't know why people are complaining about these services, John's sermons. Those are so familiar to me because there were so many puppy students who service people there. And you're like, I don't know if there's anything wrong. And I don't know, I don't know what,

People want to testify, but that's what I grew up. That's the faith I grew up, and I don't know. I've been talking to my family in Finland, many people in Finland, because I felt so lost.

But when I talked with them, I always felt like, yes, I'm feeling the right way. I should have written down all my thoughts, but well, I don't know. But yes, later on, like a month ago, I went through this.

This is what Hannah wrote and I really found lots of similarities with the situation right now here, which was 1970 in Finland. And this is not only my opinion, I talked to my parents and they really feel like all I told them, they feel like it was the same way there back in then.

People should come to the church and live with happiness and joy. This is not like it should be. I'm serious.

But the only thing which I'm happy about is that they know what is going on here. They know in Finland what's going on here. So I just want this to be cleared out and we could all come here, listen to the services and go back home with the joy and not be them.

Who's next?

I guess if the sister from Finland could clarify her comment. I thought that I heard her say that she has taught her parents or somebody, and they think it's the same way here as it was in the 70s in Finland. So could she clarify that?

Kajsa, do you want to speak some more to that? Let's use the mic. Patrick will bring it to you. Well, I don't want to go too deep with all the theological stuff. I'm not in the right person to talk about it, but

If you just go through that Hanna Nurminen's thesis, I hope, and I think it's been translated to in English for your convenience. So I think, you know, you should read it out starting from the page 249, so you would kind of get an idea what it was in Finland and what is it nowadays. And it's not only my parents, I have talked to so many people

In Finland. And... Yeah. And I just... Yeah. I don't know what to do, but I just... I had to tell this out loud because I think it's important. Yeah.

Ray. Mike, can you recap what the lady spoke? I didn't get much out of it. Well, I wouldn't, I don't think I would dare, Ray.

Yeah, we have to leave it there. I didn't catch the name of the publication you were talking about, [Kaisa], but I don't think, I don't think I dare anyway do that. If somebody else does, that's fine, but. Walt, did you have more? I thought you, oh, all right.

She was just talking about Hanna Nurminen's thesis. Oh, okay.

This is quite long. It has been translated. We did talk about that thesis about maybe April of 2017. We had at the LLC office the SRK chairman

Executive Secretary, and I think the counterparts from Sweden. That topic of that thesis came up, and I can't speak of the thesis, but I can recall that who has done a doctoral thesis, too, and maybe

Valde Palala, who is also there, explained that in the process of writing a thesis, basic theology, that two extremes are taken. And so theology is kind of a scientific approach to the study of scripture, which is kind of

Impossible in a sense. So, I personally, I would caution against using that document as a gauge or picture of Christianity today.

It is somebody's doctoral thesis, and perhaps they had their doctoral degree based on that, but it's quite a stretch to take and use that thesis as a tool or something to use to try to gauge Christianity at this time.

Just to clarify that it's a study that what happened in 1970s and what was the doctoral issues and differences these days and there's you know like that's that's all the facts and why I want people to to read it or

What I want to get familiar with is that we wouldn't do those mistakes again. There are so many people who still struggle with what happened then. They are still mentally struggling about what happened back then.

Do we really want it to happen here? That's my question. Gary? John mentioned the position statement from the SRK in 2011.

I thought I'd read some excerpts from that, which reflect back on the 70s in Finland. And it says that regrettably, beginning in the middle of the 70s, characteristics foreign to Christianity began to appear, such as doctrinal errors and the abuses they brought about. This was acknowledged already at the speakers and elders meeting at Suisauder in 1989.

One doctrinal error of that period was, for example, the so-called spirit doctrine, which demanded that individuals repent of spirits of different names, like the dry spirit, lenient spirit, Kososian spirit. Public confession also became manifest at the meetings along with the demand for repentance using specified

In addition, there appeared to be a wrong concept that the board of the SRK or local RYs would form some kind of government of the house of God. In addition to these phenomena, the following began to appear. The diminishment of the conscience of the individual, injurious speech, and withholding of forgiveness,

Humiliation of another person is never right. Neither is physical, mental, or spiritual violence. And it continues here that we regret that the errors in doctrine and abuses have occurred. It is regrettable and in retrospect incomprehensible that these errors were able to spread nearly everywhere in the work of our Christianity.

Meetings of this type ended at the end of the 1970s when those who carried the doctrinal errors received the grace of repentance from their errors.

Almost it seems like I'm taking a turn to speak too many times, but I feel like I have to say something about that particular

He has, I think, even sent a copy of it, or those two sentences, referring to the governance of the household of God. It was part of it that boards and so forth cannot become.

Dictators and so forth. Also, this question about the spirits, they're just as Gary read. There is a statement like that. I sought clarification for those, and I know that there's a difference in saying or feeling that [boards have]

No spiritual responsibility versus saying that they can go too far. Of course, the 70s, I was a young person at that time and part of many caretaking meetings in the congregation that I was part of. Some of those meetings had

Some of those meetings were very good. So I think to kind of give a roller painting to anything that occurred in the 70s or 80s across the Zion of North America is stretching it a little bit too far. I don't think all caretaking meetings of that time

But it seems to me that behind this particular statement is some sort of questioning about the duties of boards. And there again, boards have a spiritual duty. It's another thing that they carry their duty to the extent that they would be

Dictators or so forth. So I think that question continues to be brought up by John and Gary for some reason. The other is this question of the spirits. Of course the Bible says try the spirits. Are they of God? And more than one passage

You can speak of different spirits. So you can't say that there's not different spirits. I think it's regrettable what took place back in the 70s, of which I remember, to try and

Many of them have a particular condition of heart that was anti or not of God. They were fighting an eternal struggle that we all do fight. Who will govern the heart? Will it be the Spirit of Christ or a difference

It must take place and we can't say that it doesn't. Now it's a different thing to bring in a person to that point that you must repent by name of a particular spirit. That was regrettable that that happened. And of course there's one central

It kind of seemed to dominate behind the scenes. Or Heikki Saari, sorry. But he took care of his matters and passed away in faith. But to me, there seems that these continuing commentaries and kind of like an insinuation or a maybe even more bolder attempt to say

That those same conditions, like Sister from Finland tried to express, I think, those same conditions exist here today that existed in Finland in the 1970s. I personally do not agree with that. I don't think we have that time here now. We have a time of freedom, a time of building. We have a time of unity.

But for some reason, there are a few people that seem to be troubled by something. And I think it comes forth in the speeches that they seem to feel that we have that law-abiding answer,

Ask them why do they feel that way. I've come across a few sermons I've been listening to lately and basically I listen to tens of sermons from from Finland each week and several have said that that they in Finland feel the freedom to

Freely visit about the 1970s and what has happened there and the errors that happened. And for this, in this respect, that these things wouldn't repeat themselves. So they have an era of freedom to freely be able to talk about it with no pressures and no fear of kickback of any sort. So it's an open, free discussion item. Dave Tolkanen.

Yeah, I remember the fear in the late 70s, early 80s of anyone my age, maybe a few years older and a few years younger. We didn't dare open our mouths to say anything during the meetings because we would be put into a wrong spirit. And I just hope that that's not coming back.

I don't know. I haven't been to any of the meetings because I'm usually working. But again, we were youth and we were sinful as everyone is.

The mass, I mean there was errors made, that's true, but the fear that a lot of the youth had for speaking out because then they would be put into something that they weren't even aware of is what, I've talked to a lot of people and it's not just a few people, there's a lot of people from different congregations who still have those bad memories of that. So that's all I wanted to say.

Jared? So, first, I'd like to ask for the Gospel. I didn't want to come tonight and believe all the Spirit of Jesus here, but this is a trying time. I would like to hear from Gary or somebody else who can explain how this SRK statement has anything to do with today.

I would say that our boards are trembling trying to do God's work as we've been asked to do. And it's a trying time. I agree with [Kaisa] that you should come to church and leave uplifted and refreshed. And it isn't always that way today, and you can feel the difference.

However, on the joyful side, I heard from many speakers who were at Speaker's Camp that related the exact same message that Russ related about Speaker's Camp. This presentation that Jim gave, and even hearing it, now I've heard several people give their recount of it, has always brought joy to my heart, and my heart has always said amen to this. And it is so...

Wonderful to hear that by far the vast majority of our speakers in Zion agreed with this. And the believers in Finland and across the globe agree with this. And this is the words, and this is a belief that we grew up with. There is always errors in how things are taken care of. We're human, we're sinful. But yet, this message of the gospel lifts and carries us.

But with trembling and fear, look at the current issues of today and where we hear those differences and those who cannot say amen to this message. I would like to understand why not? This is the message that I grew up believing that my sins are forgiven and my sins are forgiven daily, but I need that gospel to believe.

I just really, I struggle with how you can't believe this when this is what's been taught in God's kingdom throughout all time. Is that on there? Yeah, back there, Patrick. As I've been sitting here tonight, it seems to me that

For example, what John was saying and what was on the projector was one and the same. And so we've been, in our last meeting, we heard about groups with wrong understandings or with a new doctrine. I would like folks that have heard new doctrine or have heard this wrong understanding to expound on that because

And I do have one point about the presentation to the living of grace versus continual forgiveness. Any discussions that I've had about continual forgiveness is that it is grace. And so it just puzzled me a little bit that there was a versus because to me it's one and the same. And anybody that I've talked to believes that same. And so if there

If there are people that believe once a believer, always a believer, I don't know them, and I don't know if any of the brothers that spoke last, during our last meeting, if they do know people that specifically believe that way. Obviously, we need to take care of those people individually, but for myself, I can say that I know of no one that believes that way. And kind of the,

Also bringing up the 80s, I was a baby, so I didn't, I don't know, I didn't live through any of that, didn't have any of those experiences, but from what I've heard, this, these, you know, for example, last meeting, Jared said there was a clear difference at the annual meeting.

Todd said that there's this group, clear group, with the wrong understanding. Ron said that there was a clear group with a new doctrine. And I guess I would like to know, and I think probably others would too, is who are these people? Because where are they? Because nobody that I have talked to or people that I have talked to

Knowing anybody that believes once a believer always a believer or and I don't know if it's just semantics with the words continual forgiveness but to me it's just so simple it's grace and it's Christ's righteousness and of course we need the gospel we would never make it to heaven without the gospel and so I guess I'm just very puzzled where this this

I don't know what the English word is, but this of once a believer, always a believer. I don't know where that's coming from, and so any expanding on that would, I think, would be helpful. Just one small addition regarding this continual forgiveness. has written about the endeavor of faith, and I'm just going to read a couple sentences.

He wrote, by grace we have become partakers of God's love and Christ's righteousness. We have received this through faith, which God has effected. Faith is being in the righteousness of Christ and living in forgiveness every moment. We endeavor to preserve this treasure. So I also agree that continual forgiveness is the same as grace, which does not give anyone the right to go on sin because of continual forgiveness, but neither does grace.

I feel like they're the same thing. Okay, Ron Simonson. That was Lisa Lehtola, right? Okay. I lived through that time of the 70s, it's been talked about.

There was a time after that heresy, there was very, very vicious battles during that heresy where Satan tried to, and did in fact, divided the kingdom with approximately 50% of the people in North America living into that heresy. Those of us who were left in God's kingdom were joyful.

To be left in the kingdom of God. And there was also those that were, I guess we could say, wounded in battle during that heresy who remained as believers. And it was a time of leniency in the kingdom of God. Very, very, what could we say, very flagrant leniency in some cases.

I was a teenager at that time in the 60s. I graduated in 1961, late 50s. I graduated from high school in 1961. And I experienced the differences, the vast differences between understanding of what was right and what was wrong.

And even to the state of many of those that went in that heresy saying drinking, social drinking was okay, and that sort of thing. But during the early 70s, there was an attempt by the brothers who were ministers at that time

To correct many of the matters that were, how would we say, looked at as being okay in the time leading up to the heresy, the things of leniency. And I remember the many meetings that we had during that time. And I remember also those meetings that were held in that church on Newton Avenue

Where there were people went before the congregation to take care of matters.

And those things by name. And there was a talk about a Kososian spirit. And they gave the symptoms of those spirits, of that spirit, and I thought, surely I have that Kososian spirit, and I went in front of the congregation to take care of those matters. But we understand that there were mistakes made in that time.

In the time of the heresy that we could liken it to a pendulum on the clock, that things went way, way, way over to the left. And people living in the, basically, confessing faith but living as those in the world. And in trying to correct those things, as we heard, many went overboard.

But one thing that we need to remember is that forgiveness was preached. Those matters were taken care of and forgiveness was preached. And when we keep going back to those things that happened in the 70s and 80s, I agree with what Walt said, that it is not the same as those things that we're experiencing at this time.

And I don't know why those things keep coming back when forgiveness was preached. They keep coming back and they keep coming up at all kinds of meetings. Every meeting we go to almost, those things that happened in the 70s and 80s are brought up. And so where is the forgiveness? That's the question I have is that where is the forgiveness for those mistakes that were made in the 70s and 80s?

One other question. The lady said that I made a statement at that last Minneapolis meeting that there were two groups, and I did make a statement that there were two groups. I did not name what the differences were between the two groups. What I said is that you can look around and see that there are two groups.

And there are. I don't know how we can ignore something that is happening like that. It's very, very observable. And when we hear the discussions, it becomes plain that there are two groups. So the question is, is that in God's kingdom, if we're...

How should I say? If we're led by the Spirit of God, why is there division? And what is causing that division? Who is bringing that division? Satan seems to be very, very active in bringing that decision. But God's Spirit does not fight against itself. And when there is disagreement, we can discuss those things.

We discuss those things. But we discuss those things according to what we understand in God's word and how that spirit speaks to us. And for myself, I cannot, when I hear things that are not correct according to that spirit that I have, I cannot agree with them. I can't agree.

With those things that are not according to how I have understood these things since my youth. And it seems like there are these doctrines that are creeping in that are different than what I've learned in my youth. And it seems like there's a group that has all kinds of different and diverse doctrines. They don't agree amongst themselves.

And I don't know how to say any more at this time, but these are some of the thoughts that I have. Jouko? Right back there, Patrick. Jouko? If the guests are allowed to speak, I would like to touch on a few items.

I'll start with Hanna Nurminen dissertation. Of course, it was written in Finnish, so I was able to read it. And I tried to understand it. And first I want to say, like Walt said, it's not Bible, it's not God's Word. It's a doctoral dissertation. It's made under the rules of

Theology and the rules of scientific methods.

And Hanna Nurminen has said herself in the interview right after when it was published, it's not a description of God's kingdom like it is. And there's a great error if we think that it describes right and wrong, black and white. Like this grace line is God's kingdom and this sanctification line is legalistic

It's a theoretical structure where she describes two, like Valde explained it at the April meeting, she drives two kind of ways, two ideas to the extreme, to the furthest extreme possible.

That she was using. She kind of slices the message, takes sentences, little excerpts from here and there, supporting this idea and the other idea. And Valde, for instance, himself said that my sermon excerpts are on both sides. So he kind of chuckled on that.

It is not a description of how God's kingdom is now here. God's kingdom stands in between those extremes. The sanctification line, extreme, it is actually, you know, that whole idea in the dissertation was to push it to the extreme, find

Excerpts that kind of support that thinking is like confession doctrine. That if one does not confess everything perfectly, they are not believers. That's a sanctification line extreme. And the grace line extreme is I and Christ. I don't need congregation. I don't need...

Any connection with the living congregation in God. Either line is not a picture of God's kingdom. So God's kingdom stands in between those.

As it's been said, we confess our sins when they trouble us, but it's not our Christ, and we live in God's congregation. We don't, in that sense, live in Christ only. That's what this world teaches, that I don't need any middleman. I take care of my matters between myself and Christ. Secondly,

About birth control. I believe [God] is creator of life. Without God's active involvement and will, there is no new life. Those families who cannot have children know it the most deep way.

Secondly, God is wise beyond any understanding. And his ways are way above ours. And thirdly, God is love. He loves his own. He loved the whole world so much that he gave his only son to die for the sins of mankind.

If I put these three together, God is a creator who does not make mistakes and who loves his own. I cannot think that God would need my involvement in birth control. This is how I believe and this kind of

Vague statement that for health reasons, yes and no, depending on what it is. I'm not a doctor. I'm not going to go to that area at all. But I've heard several times being said that it's between the mother and the doctor. Where is God?

I think there's more involved in that than the mother and the doctor. It's a question which we know this world is fully supportive. And my old Adam, my thinking is supportive. My brain supports it. And so many struggle with it. I know it.

Because I have children who are in that age and who speak of their experiences in Finland. How many young families, and I don't go into any details, but I have unbelieving children, have struggled with those questions.

I had something else, but I can't remember it anymore. But these were the two most burning matters in my mind. One simple thought about this continual forgiveness. I tried to understand it. I tried to understand the difference. And I hit my axe into the stone.

And I realized that God has not given me much understanding, so I have to accept that I understand little. But my question is, if continual forgiveness is the same as grace, why do we need a new terminology for that? I'm not against it. I don't worry about it. If that's the same, it's the same.

But like Russ said in his presentation, we also heard the statement that the past, present, and future sins are forgiven. And that sounded odd and that troubles.

So that's my few thoughts. But I feel so lacking, so weak, so confused. Can I believe my sins forgiven? If I can believe, I'll make it to heaven. I don't need anything else. Walt is next.

Oh, Jim, go ahead. I think Walt will let you speak first. If you won't, Walt, you turn around and give me a sign. But I just wanted to say that I think that those of us that lived in the 70s and 80s, we all didn't experience in all areas where we might have lived

The same difficulties. But I do remember some meetings that took place when the expectation was that we would

With the evidence of a wrong spirit, then we would take care of that wrong spirit. And I think many of us took care of matters that we didn't understand, but we knew this, that we had been living in sin. And we wanted to take care of that. And I understand from those that have struggled how difficult

Memories are of those days. But I want to speak about the days that I've lived. During the time when I've raised my family, most of my days were here in Minneapolis and then moved to a little bit further west when we were raising our children.

And during the time that we've lived, I've only known God's kingdom to be a place where there is forgiveness and when there is much love and patience and long suffering for me. That doesn't mean that we haven't had need to discuss our understandings of this portion of scripture or another portion of scripture.

But through it all, it's been a beautiful place to live and I've believed that God has cared for me in his kingdom, that he's called me to be his child and he's placed me in a place where I can be cared for.

I don't feel, and I've read the statement that the SRK published in the Päivämies, wanting to clarify or speak to those errors that happened in the 70s.

But I haven't experienced those days, at least in these years of raising my family. I haven't experienced those type of struggles. There have been struggles, but those are not familiar to me. And I would say that God's kingdom is a beautiful place to be. And then on the question of grace, Christ has atoned for our sins, and as it was explained,

That's also how I've understood. And yet I can't perfectly describe the mysteries of God's word and of these questions that have come forward.

And I didn't remember bringing or having these questions until they've been brought up, such as the robe of righteousness, or is there a time where we would not forgive? And so my question is for those that have brought those questions forward, have they been concerned? Have they seen something that I haven't seen, or have they experienced something that I haven't experienced in these years?

When it seems that God has blessed so abundantly in our congregations. And I also feel my own fears and my own doubts and my own sins and ask, can I yet believe? We believe all things through your name in Jesus' name we pray. Pat, while the mic is coming up to Walt, there was somebody behind Jim that raised their hand. Kathy, I'll put you on the list.

I guess my eight comments would be related to the 70s. I get a chance to talk to quite a few people, and I would say some of the people that I don't share the same understanding with, but it's been helpful to speak with them.

But I did hear the comment that we don't want this to ever happen again. And of course that's related to the excesses or we might describe the 70s. I recall coming out of the heresy as a young person and we had that similar idea that we don't ever want this to happen again.

Meaning a heresy. And it causes us to be overly watchful and try to control life and so forth so that it would never happen again. And of course it resulted in false watching type situations too.

But I think the people that use that statement that we want this time of the 80s to be clarified so that it never happens again. Think about that. That's bringing a lot down to your head.

It's almost like someone seems self-righteous. So we live by grace, as we've heard many times at many different

We're saved by grace, through the grace, through the work of Christ. But to go and say that we could prevent heresy or prevent those times, I'm not so sure that we can. That those happen at a time, a very difficult time of battle.

The continuous forgiveness, I'm not sure what that means. As we've heard, does it mean grace? I've heard it said it means almost the same as grace, or someone here tonight said that to me it means this. So there's something about that line of thought that to me doesn't ring clear. Often we hear that reference,

Uljas has spoken, how he says moment by moment. And of course we can say that that's continuously, right? And certainly it is that, but I think to me, he gives the picture that of our walk of faith is kind of step by step, moment by moment. We're not living in the future too far because we don't know if we have

That strength or if we'll need to face the things of the future, but we live moment by moment by the grace of God. That grace comes to us through his kingdom here on earth. So yeah, I'm not so sure that that really means living by grace because some that say they believe in continuous forgiveness,

They don't exactly believe the same. So what is it? The other thing is, and I say this in timidity, but it appears, at least to me, that some families are carrying a grudge, a leaven of some sort,

It's been said in different ways, but personally I don't think we're living in the 70s. I think that, quite honestly, those that think that we are living in the 70s are simply false watching. They're so keen to the smallest things that they see

I see something in every statement and every word or something like that, or seeing an enemy that doesn't exist at this time. And so I think myself that it's something that comes from the past that has affected some families in particular much more than in the general.

So, in that respect, the statements that are made, it almost seems like some feel that we are not living correctly or believing correctly at this time. The emphasis on the many points that we

[merit and work] of Christ and correct statements about confession and so forth. I don't personally see any problem with the particular statements, but I do question this, why is there that emphasis? Some feel that we aren't living correctly, that we aren't believing correctly, that somehow

We have the 70s, as some have said. But I see in these things kind of a veiled accusation that we're not believing correctly. And somehow we've gone to the right side of the road and to the self-righteousness over emphasis on confession and so on and so forth.

When I was a university student at the time of the heresy, the part of the country that I lived in, we didn't hear anything about the endeavor of faith. It was just, believe your sins forgiven. We didn't even know hardly how to go and ask for the gospel. We didn't have a clear picture of God's kingdom and its boundaries. And so that's an example of, oh, what way the other way.

So when I hear people nowadays question it or too much emphasis on the confession and putting away of sins or the righteousness of life and so forth, we didn't hear any of that back in that day in that part of the country. And many of my school friends and people that I knew remained there.

We didn't know. We weren't strengthened or encouraged to take care of sin and sin attaches. And that's where it went. And some of these things like

A sister said, I don't hear anything about once saved, always saved, or something to that effect. There has been in little pockets that kind of understanding. Maybe it's now with everyone that speaks about continuous forgiveness, but there is a difference here.

It's a great difference. It's not so clear to me exactly what it is, but I think that it does have something to do with people that have something in their heart that they're carrying, some kind of bitterness, maybe from the 70s, maybe related to their parents from the 70s.

It's kind of like we used to say in the U.P. and other parts of the country, like carrying the hatchet instead of burying the hatchet. There's something to correct one. I wonder, to me, it's not that which is insinuated or

Patrick, Kathy Helmke's next, and then Risto Keranen. I'm not sure if I'll make sense with my thoughts here, but ever since coming here this evening, I felt like I was in a spiral, like a centrifugal force was drawing me into this, I don't know how to describe it, but some of these thoughts I'm hearing tonight do not

Um, relate, correspond to my feelings, and I don't know if I'm wrong or what, but my desire is to get to heaven, to have my sins forgiven, and I find that there, feel like there's more attempt at justification here tonight than, where's the humbleness of spirit? I don't, nobody, I don't know, I just feel really troubled by it.

All this need to justify something or almost, it's not the tone of voice, but in a way it's demanding and it scares me. It's not, like Ron said, it's not the Christianity that I was raised in. And I went through the 70s and 80s too, and I remember the meetings, but I remember the forgiveness too. And talking about this future sins,

They're not forgiven now, but they can be forgiven with a contrite heart and asking for forgiveness for these sins. And can I hear my sins forgiven too? I want to go to heaven. We've all sins forgiven in Jesus' name in blood. And that's all I have to say. Risto Keranen.

I've heard a few comments regarding the things that Gary's read. Sometimes when John has read something or somebody's read something and people ask the question, well, how would that add to anything like this? That stifles freedom, and there's been a lack of love. That's what our problem here is today.

Love is wax cold. There are sins that have not been taken care of and they need to be taken care of. This problem will not go away until that happens. I do think that there is some law-mindedness in God's kingdom today. It's going to require

And one example I would use is that we see somebody else's sins for, oh, I've got concerns about this person. Constant concerns about somebody is not right. There's nothing, when you don't examine yourself first, and all you see is somebody else's sin,

I've got plenty of fault in myself. I think we all have to be a little bit careful before coming out and publicly saying I've got concerns about so and so and I've got concerns about

This person, that person. Let's worry about ourselves before we go and look at somebody else's wretchedness and whatnot. So, I think what would help is that when someone makes a comment,

That we don't immediately jump on that and start discounting what was said. I think this is a good venue for people to speak their mind, speak their heart. We have the freedom to read whatever in these discussions they do add.

I think a lot of these things that the brothers and sisters that I've read or talked about have been very nice. And I question why the defensiveness almost of some here

When somebody says something, they got to immediately raise their hand and start questioning what they have said. So I think it would be good for all of us just to allow people to say what they want to say and have that freedom and just kind of take a step back and relax and let things play out as they do and allow people to freely speak.

I know, but it was so close. So, can I say something? If it's fast. Jesus said that the greatest among you is a little child. And part of the reason I think or I believe that he said that is because the mind of a small child

Our faith is not cluttered up with thoughts and worries and wondering, is this right or that right? Our faith is so simple that even a five-year-old child understands what forgiveness is. And the mind of man just clouds up a lot of understanding.

And I didn't bring up the fact of the 70s because I hold resentment from that era. I talked to a lot of people from this congregation and from outside this congregation who have those feelings. And so it's not just a few people. That's what my point was. So the next person on the list is Brian Johnson. So while the mic's going up there, I actually put my name on the list a while ago too.

If you would bear with me, Patrick, Brian's right here. I do feel my sinfulness and my poorness in my many weak words that I, first before I speak, if I could hear the gospel. I wanted to talk about this continual forgiveness

And we've had many discussions about it. I, for one, have been one that's been so troubled by this thought, this idea, these words. And I expressed it this way because I am so simple and have so little understanding.

But this is what my feeling has been that by grace I live in faith. But I know from personal experience that when I fall into sin, that sin doesn't go away unless I take care of it with a brother or sister and that gospel is preached.

And so that's why that continual forgiveness confused me so much is because I didn't in my own life have that experience. And I understand and I so want to believe that I still believe even though I sin every day.

But Luther tells us that we take care of those sins that we feel in our heart and which trouble our conscience. And my feeling is that if we don't do that, we've been taught since we were little children that unforgiven sin separates us from God. That's how we lose our faith. That's how important that is. And then I had this thought on the 70s and 80s.

I've been involved in some smaller discussions, not discussions this big. I have heard the question about the 70s and 80s, and I got to be honest, folks, I was alive then. I was believing then. I was even married then in 78. But it seemed like I was

It was such a difficult battle for me just to believe that maybe I don't remember very many of the issues or the things that were said, but all of the names that have been brought up from the 70s and 80s, the one thing that continually strikes me is that those brothers and those sisters that were involved in those discussions, in those difficult discussions,

Wanted to believe, they wanted to be obedient to the congregation. And because of that, they were preserved in faith. And many of them have already gone to glory. Their testimony is good. And so maybe that would be the, for me has been the comforting thing is that

Things go wrong, but if we're obedient and we're humble and we try to be obedient to the voice of the congregation, God will preserve us in faith. He will not leave us. Right? It's a joy to be here. It's always a joy to come here to the Minneapolis congregation where

I grew up in this congregation, and this congregation took care of me and my family. As I sat here, my wife said, now remember, let the congregation speak. As I sat here, my wife said, remember, let the congregation speak. And I have, and now I can't contain myself. I have to, I would like to say a few words. I was

My service here in the congregation as a board member, I was taken care of. All the board members here in Minneapolis were taken care of. Our first function was spiritual. Our second function was the temporal well-being of the congregation. And the congregation took care of us because the final authority, it rests within the congregation. The board and the ministers are servants of the congregation.

We all on the board were taken care of one way or another. I needed care. All of us did. John, brother John, needed care and sometimes special care. I don't remember all the details what happened, but John was taken care of lovingly and patiently for years. I'm not saying every single meeting was about John, but there were special meetings we had as a board.

To take care of John, my dear brother John. And there was nights when I went home, I just couldn't put my finger, there was no specific thing we could point out that I couldn't see. But yet, God in his love took care of John, took care of me, took care of all the brothers. And the congregation took care of us. Last night I was in Fargo,

The Holy Ghost is always a gathering power. It melts the believing men's heart into a living fellowship.

It does not beget isolated Christians in one corner or another to the next, but it forms one flock around the Good Shepherd. It unites into one head Christ, one body whose members are joined together seamlessly through brotherly love. That's what the Holy Spirit does.

Are we this way, dear brothers and sisters? Are we seamlessly in love? There is, there's issues. Perhaps instead of defending ourselves and all these talking points, maybe we had to listen to the instructions which John writes, what Christ says about the true vine. Abide in me and I in you.

As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself except it abide in the vine, no more can ye except ye abide in me. I am the true vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit. For without me you can do nothing.

To that true vine. And that true vine is here in God's holy congregation. And that true vine, there's life. That life-giving gospel. If we do not abide in that true gospel, in that true vine, we will perish. We will be like a dry and withered branch.

And how do we abide there? It is by believing the gospel. This gives us power to remain in that true vine, to live through that gospel. Brothers and sisters this evening, believe all sins, all faults forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. Believe unto peace, freedom, and joy. This is the gospel that my heart desires too. Can I yet believe?

All this is for you in Jesus' name, amen. Jeremy Honga. By the way, it's nine o'clock or one or two minutes to nine. And so we were gonna try to wrap it up at nine, but seeing as how there's seven people on the list, maybe we'll keep going for a few minutes. I know we all have work tomorrow and maybe school.

We'll try to keep it somewhat reasonable. Jeremy? First, I just want to say that I attended here the other Sunday morning when we had our meeting together, and I heard

Some speeches which shared of thoughts towards individuals and perhaps of the Minneapolis Board over time and how perhaps it has been unloving and erring in certain ways. While I know that every one of us here

Including all board members and ministers, we have not been perfect in our walk of faith, and as Brian has said, we've all needed and received that help. I just want to share here that in my short time of about five years, I suppose, I have not known and seen

I want to share that here with you brothers and sisters. And I think that yes, there has been concerns. I have shared those same concerns from time to time. And as Brian has shared, that endeavor of the believers is to take care of one another. And I believe that is the work of God. And He is trying to help in that even yet today.

Then I want to say of this talk of the 70s and 80s, I've heard these kinds of things now for some time, and I know I've asked and perhaps others have from time to time in different places that we are, when we've heard this, is that the feeling that

There is this kind of problem here in our American Zion. And I have to say that when this question has been asked, it has been answered in kind of a way that mostly is probably stated that I'm not saying that there's some sort of problem. But yet, it seems to continue that this

The message continues to be placed in this similar way. And then tonight, it seems that this sense that I have received, and perhaps others have received, that there are some who believe there is this kind of a problem.

It feels to me, even by the speech, how one said that the believers in Finland even would think that that's what is happening here in America. And this worries me, brothers and sisters. I am too young

I didn't live through the 70s and I'm thankful for that. I'm happy I didn't experience. I've heard from brothers and sisters over time of different things which have taken place. Things which have been acknowledged by the grace of God.

And I'm thankful I didn't have to experience those times. And instead, I look back on my life here in God's kingdom and I see precious memories here together with you brothers and sisters.

That you, elder brothers and sisters especially, have even been here to take care of us and to teach us. And I'm thankful that my memory of my life of God's kingdom is this, that God's kingdom is full of love and forgiveness for a sinner such as I. But I wanted to read here

Because I think it's helpful. It is to me and perhaps to you. Oh, and Peter, it's written how he's writing to the elders and he shares how he too is an elder and he's also a believer. He says, a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. So he's speaking to believing elders and acknowledging that he too is an elder and a believer. And it's a word of,

Exhortation and encouragement to those brothers and sisters. And it's the same word that I would share to my believing friends, especially you dear elders. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly.

Not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. And so the brother is sharing unto the elders then

And unto us believers today that this kind of feeding, this kind of helping the children of God is that which is done here in God's kingdom by and through the power of the Holy Spirit. And it says how we heard that not for

And I'm thankful that this kingdom which I have walked in in my lifetime, that this kind of message has been taught here.

The forgiveness of sins. That Jesus Christ is here with us. That this kingdom is dear and precious. It's the pillar and ground of truth. This has been my experience, brothers and sisters. I'm thankful for it. And I pray that it would continue. I pray that I and my children and your children would be able to

Have the same kind of help and feeding from elders and brothers and sisters in faith that my children would be able to know of the preciousness of the forgiveness of sins, that they would know the preciousness of God's kingdom, that they would know of sin, that they would know of the danger of sin, that they would know

Of those places that are sin, so that the enemy wouldn't cleverly deceive them and take their faith away from my faith. This is my prayer. That this precious message that I have known can continue. And I know the enemy has been working.

To try to take this message away from us, throw some sort of confusion amongst us. We see it around us. We know it. I think if we're honest with ourselves, we all acknowledge that there is something that is not right. Even our children, our little children, the old children here in God's kingdom,

When they have heard, even in public speeches in places, in our presentations in churches, it has caused confusion and worry and restlessness. The security of God's kingdom, the preciousness of God's kingdom, it's been shaken and it's longed for.

And the believers feel that. So, pray to God that he would continue to give unto the tender believers that plain and simple instruction, the instruction of Jesus Christ, the forgiveness of sins which flows through him, the instruction of sin, that which takes.

Life away causes death. It is true that it is important and most important that each one of us are able to examine our own being and endeavor childlike in faith, wanting to

Travel with a tender heart and conscience and receive the forgiveness for our many sins. And God wants to take care of us in that way. And I am thankful in my lifetime when brothers and sisters who have come unto me to teach me and to help me, there when the concern has been even

Needed and necessary to help me in my walk of faith. And I believe this is how each one of us are, that we need the help of God. We need the help of his children. And God gives unto each one of us this kind of help, his help, where he sends his believing children to us in time of need. And so we can be thankful even in this way.

That God does send help, even help of concern, to a brother or sister. And may it be so that we can also simply believe in this way, that yes, God, who loves the undying souls of man, even helps in this way, which we'd want to approach with love and

And to help one in need. Each one of us have needed that. And so I think it is just important that we don't so strongly look at this kind of help and concern as would become an obstacle to us being able to care

For our life of faith and our need for help as well. But that we can truly believe that God knows how to help. And it's even in this way he loves us when he sends brother or sister, even God's congregation, to an individual who needs help.

This I believe. In this way God loves his people because he wants to take us to heaven. And so this is my prayer, brothers and sisters, that God would continue to teach and to help us to keep the preciousness of his kingdom and the forgiveness of sins which I have known in my lifetime here for me

Here for you and here for my children because I want to make it happen and I want my children to make it happen. And throughout these times they have certainly been difficult even for me. I have felt burdens along the way. But I want to continue as a child of God and I ask from each one of you

Believing friends here at Minneapolis and all here present that can I hear the precious forgiveness of sins for my own sins. We've all sinned through the blood of Jesus. I raised my hand, but there's a few hours left, right? Are you going to speak? I'll take a turn.

Came tonight and listened for a long time. There have been a couple who have asked that people have said there are two groups, but what are the differences? Explain. And I don't know that I have a good answer, but perhaps I'll say

What I felt in going to minister's camp for the first time, and maybe to start even before then, I was put up to speak just over a year ago, and we've heard it said that you don't

I don't have to believe on emotion, but I can say that when I was first told that my name was going to be brought before the congregation, the emotions of my whole life came to the forefront. That why me?

What did I have to offer? I'm sure for many of you other speaker brothers, the feeling of, I don't know the Bible. Why would I be chosen to read from it and try and explain scripture? That tied into the weekend right after that.

There was a meeting here in Minneapolis, and the presentation that was given in the morning was titled, I believe it was, Some Are Set or Some Are Called, and it talked about watchmen on the walls of Zion.

I later talked to that brother who gave that presentation. And I asked him that, had he written it specifically for me? Because it was exactly what I needed to hear in my weak and trembling and doubting state of mind. And the message that I took from that is, yes, every believer

Needs to watch for their own personal faith. And they have also been given that instruction to be their brother's keeper. But then some are set on the walls. And if you look in that book where it describes the watchman on the walls of Zion, it even says that those are called from the shores

And the explanation about that was that those people were not considered the most important or the most valuable people in that land. They were taken from the far reaches of the countryside. They were brought in because those who are on the walls are the ones who are attacked first. And they are expendable. It's their duty to watch.

For those that live inside the walls and they have been called not because they are stronger or have more knowledge or are being given an elevated position in that kingdom. They are called to serve and that is one of the duties of those who serve God's kingdom.

The following weekend when the congregation had the discussion, I came there still in such denial. I didn't put my suit coat on because that might have been admitting that the congregation might actually put me up to speak. And I had to put it on

When that discussion went and all those present felt that the three of us whose names had been brought before the congregation should serve as speakers. Even in that ceremony, being blessed into the ministry, I still had doubts.

Returning to the bench, I thought, could that discussion have gone long enough? Surely there is someone here who knows and would have said something about me that would have changed the mind of the congregation. It was only after the service was over

That whole entire congregation came to each of us brothers and personally related their desire for God's blessings in this duty. But those doubts were put behind me.

And I needed to accept that decision. Going up to Minister's Camp, the first one that I had attended, I certainly didn't feel that I belonged going there. I had no wise words. I trembled going there because of

The confusion of the times, some of the questions that were being discussed. But at that camp, during that presentation that was given, and as John said, yes, Jim Frantti gave this presentation,

Where Jim related his personal confession of faith. How he personally believes. And I believe this is why so many brothers, when they took their speaking turns, they also spoke their personal confession of their faith.

And when they said that their hearts said, Amen, they were confirming that they believed the same way. Those brothers didn't bring their own wisdom there. They didn't bring their own research and prepared speeches and thorough Bible knowledge.

They simply brought their hearts and they listened to that word and they confirmed with the spirit that was in them that it matched how they believed and how they had been raised and how they understood God's kingdom to work. This is how God's kingdom works, is when the Holy Spirit opens God's word and teaches in the congregation

And we as believers open our hearts to hear that. And even if we don't understand it, we accept it and believe it. When we hear of new terminology or understandings that are different than those that we have grown up with, that's where concern comes.

That's what causes confusion. Confusion does not come from teachings that are true to the Holy Spirit. Why is it that Christ raised up the example of a child as the greatest in God's kingdom? Because a child doesn't question. They simply believe.

As we also should. I also want to hear that gospel. Can I believe my sins forgiven? Can you believe all the sins forgiven in Jesus' name, O precious blood? Patrick, Kaisa is next. You had your hand up, right?

I have six names on the list. It's 925. So if you guys could keep it short and sweet. I don't want to cut off any ideas or any thoughts, but it is getting late, so. Yeah, I just want to clarify. I get really anxious when I speak to strange faces. Most of you are really familiar, but some of you are strange. So I just want to clarify a couple of things.

Yeah, and I think 1970s I was talking about in Finland. And as I said, as I mentioned, I don't really want to go deeply those doctoral issues because I... My faith is weak, as everybody's. And I have never really have to studied any of that. But I just...

What I have seen and heard here in Minneapolis congregation and somewhere else too, bringing up names. That's what I mean from the seventies, bringing up names and humilifying them in front of the congregation. That's not right. And I think most of you can agree with that. So,

And the setting for this meeting, telling that someone wasn't agreeing at the minister's camp, well, I feel...

I feel bad that it has to be bring up here. There's been super nice conversation here tonight. And that's how it should be, you know, like people bringing up their questions and thoughts. That's great. But humilifying someone in front of the congregation is not right. So if there's any concerns about John's and John's teaching and

Preaching, I would ask help for SRK for sure. They would help. But it's been so long for him to be under this pressure. So that's not fair. Thank you. Just hand it to Leah. Leah's next.

Okay, I have some thoughts. I recently came back from Finland actually last Saturday and I had chance to do many visits there. First I want to talk about about Holy Spirit. Now people say that we have to listen to Holy Spirit. Yeah, that's true. But the Holy Spirit has to be rooted on Word. That we have to use Bible with the Holy Spirit and

Myself, I don't trust my spirit, because I might be dry, maybe I don't like the person, and my spirit might not answer. Man might say that that was not right. So I think that we can't overemphasize spirit answering your heart, because your heart might not be right. Then you have to always look, is that, whatever the person says, is it rooted on the word? And then you can mirror that with the spirit.

And not your personal spirit, because we are, at least I have lots of flesh. So I don't trust that my spirit always tells the truth. We have talked about continuous forgiveness and when we talk grace. And somebody had wanted to ask, you know, what it means. And I think if people don't understand the concepts, we should talk so many times that people understand, because this is the most important thing in our faith.

That grace is huge. God's grace includes also continuous forgiveness, because we live in forgiveness every moment, like today, during the night, in the morning, when we wake up, we have forgiveness in our hearts. And when we fall into sin, that forgiveness doesn't go anywhere, it's still with us. That it doesn't disappear.

So we are covered but we want to clean our conscience that we don't lose our faith. It says keep faith and good conscience and it purposely says keep faith first. Because if you lose your faith then you have nothing. Asking forgiveness won't save you if you have no faith.

Then I thought I'd tell a little bit about my experience about coming to America. I came here 13 years ago and I felt that I came to the jail. I live in Christian Freedom in Finland. It means that there was nobody watching

Like, after my sins, I needed to watch myself. I needed to take care of myself foremost, and then the other believers, they helped me to be believing and reminded how precious it is. And for people, when they say here that, yeah, we live in freedom, maybe you don't know what the freedom is. And it's different.

There's many things that have been different here. And I don't want to try to be wise, I'm just telling what I have noticed. For example, talk about law-mindedness. For me, signs of that is that people say that grace

If there's too much grace, it's a reason for permissiveness of sins. And you can never obtain grace if somebody does sin or forgiveness that somebody sins. Grace teaches us not to sin. Other sign of [law-mindedness] is this watchman talk. These speakers are special because they need to

Speak word of God in front of the congregation. But that's the only special task they have. They are not watching over people's sins. They are not watching that congregation is right. They are not watching that everything stays straight. They encourage people to believe. They preach forgiveness. They preach good gospel. They preach word of God. But we all need to watch ourselves. We all are our

Fellow citizens, you know, friends in this walk. And for example, we had in Rockford, we had a presentation where it says that we are the watchmen, that it's exhortation for ministers. I asked about that several people in Finland. Actually, they were horrified. This talk about some people making repentance and the ministers can't mention names, not right.

Also, the talk that people going against leadership, our leader here is Jesus Christ. It's not LLC, it's not any board, it's Jesus Christ. And we have to keep our gaze on Jesus Christ. And then when I think about, from that, if you go to that, Dr. Nav, how do you say this?

The governance of the household of God. So even though we are all brothers and sisters, we still have order of things how we do. And I think this meeting should have been only Minneapolis meeting.

Usually things are, you know, they're very busy discussing board and discussing congregation if the conflict is so huge. Then you can go ask, at least in Finland they could ask from SRK, I would think that they would go to ask LLC. So my opinion is that LLC should not be the place where they ponder these things and wonder what's going on and what's going on in this congregation, what's going on in these people, but they should be

There and wait if somebody asks help, ready to serve. And congregations, we should give a piece for congregations to take care of their matters, discuss, and if they can't solve their problems, then we're willing to help if we are asked. But we can trust every congregation that God's Spirit is with them. But I feel that my own whole congregation

Offering help and coming to help Minneapolis was a wrong decision, because Minneapolis didn't ask them. But still, even though we have, we have brothers and sisters willing to help, we still have other things how we do those. And then one last thing that I still want to say is, I have been kind of sick about this all 13 years, is how my brother-in-law John has been treated. So somebody asked if those things would,

are still here. So I think there's lots of blaming, there's lots of categorizing, there's lots of putting people in their places, trying to shut them down, that they don't talk. And first when we came here, I thought, like I always thought in Finland, that okay, there's concerns, let congregation take care of those matters. And that's, I thought, is the case of John. And as the time went on, I started realizing now there's something else going on.

And I started calling my dad, that I don't know, but there's something personal in this. This doesn't seem to be right, that it's not coming from congregation, that he's not treated well. And I kept talking. First, my dad didn't even listen to me. And then also I said that there's something weird in this Christianity. I don't know what it is, but there's something going on. And I couldn't pinpoint anything.

At first, and I'm not any wise, and maybe I'm wrong, thinking this way, but I think that there's nothing right how John has been treated. And if you say you treated him with love, then you should ask him, has he felt the love? But, you know, we want to help all our friends to be believing and stay believing. Have you been? I hope that everybody

Would think and I almost pray that God would send a burning fire to those people who feel that they haven't helped John stay believing. Have you helped John stay believing or have you blamed him? So I have seen this over the years and I think that it hasn't been right. And every person has to be responsible for their acts.

In that matter, too. And I don't want to be too harsh. I'm really one person, and I say everything straight. I can't sugarcoat it. So sorry about that. And I don't want to hurt anybody. I have to say, try to say my thoughts. And one thing about thinking that we have two groups, and Paul writes a great text about when people tell that,

I'm on this side, I'm on this side, I'm on this side. He asked those people if Christ is divided. So this is my question. Is Christ divided? But we want to pray for God that God would reveal the truth and that we could stay all believing and encourage each other, not condemn anybody. Patrick, we're going to go out of order here because you're right by Anne. So in the interest of time, we'll...

Take Anne first and then move to the back of the... It's been really good to hear some of the comments and I'm very very encouraged that there are people that have been bold enough to speak

Because I do think, I was pretty young during the 80s and I don't remember a lot of the details, but I remember a lot of talk. And it's interesting now that all this stuff has transpired, some of those things that I heard back in the day, I now understand in a different light. And I think what [Kaisa] said,

Bear some thinking. And I think what she was saying with the Nurminen thing, she's not justifying that that's the gospel truth. But what I did hear from her is read whatever page 249 on to understand, because I hear the question, what is it? What is it that you see or what is it that you feel? Go and read it. There's nothing wrong with reading that portion to get some insight as to what is it that people are seeing.

Interestingly enough, the self-righteous thing, there's a part of it that there's a third use of the law there, and something that is very, very, very close to us. If we start to look at other people, and you can say outwardly that I don't do this, but I think we all have an element of this in all of us, because it's human. We can look at another person and think,

They're not a very good believer. I'm definitely a better believer than they are. And I guess that is something I have felt in this congregation since I came back from Opisto in the late 80s. And I very much pondered why is it that some people will greet you

Or talk to you while others act as if they didn't see you or something. And I get there's personal differences and those kinds of things, but it felt somehow deeper. It's just something that I remember experiencing and I just say it for what it's worth.

But once, if we start looking at, like we can ask, what is self-righteousness? Do I have it? You know, is that something that I deal with? Once we start looking at someone else, thinking that we are somehow better than they are, that's self-righteousness. And I think that's something that we have to be very, very careful of. And it's very hard to see, as it's been said,

If we have that, it's hard for us to see because it's a good thing. It's like you're not doing something evil. But that of itself, it is of us. It's not of Christ. If we are self-righteous, that is something that's coming from within us. It's not of Christ. Another thought.

Interestingly enough, I remember a couple years back, there were two parties that moved to Minneapolis for a time, and one of them made the comment that they never knew what self-righteousness was, but now they do. And I wish, really, that I would have asked, like, what do you mean by that? Or come to know, what do you mean by that? What were you seeing?

And then there was another party that they said they definitely felt tones of it. And that caused me to stop to think like,

Okay, we need to look within and we need to look in the mirror and see why is it that they're saying that? That's a warning to us is how I see that. And in some regards, I get the sense that when there are people that have spoken, and I suspect that there's some that would be regarded as such tonight, that when they have attempted to say something, it's as if they're immediately wrong.

There's no trying to understand why someone thinks what they think or why would someone, for example, say that they didn't know what self-righteousness was and now they do. Why would somebody say that? I think it's a point worthwhile thinking about. And with that, I think it kind of jumps into the law-mindedness thing and one,

The trait of law-mindedness is harshness. And I have to agree with what Leah just got done saying about John. I didn't know very much, but then in talking to them, so it's not hearsay, I did come to know some things that very much troubled me

Interestingly enough, it doesn't sound like these things have been put away. Well, is it a wonder that things continue to fester and get bigger and bigger and bigger when things are not put away? That's not the instruction. And if John has asked for forgiveness, I heard it said after minister's camp that he didn't ask for forgiveness, he did ask for forgiveness. Are we not forgiving him?

I almost feel like I'm going on a limb when I say this but I feel in my heart that is something kind of tied to what I've already alluded to but sometimes I think or I get the feeling that the ministers are the only ones that are correct and I think that's very frightening because

Who takes care of the ministers and who stands to be in great danger if ministers are never erring and never have the, or always have the correct understanding? And in some ways I get that tone or I hear that tone that, and like someone else said, that there's a quelling of discussion. If something is said that is a little bit question mark-ish or whatever,

That is quieted down, and I think, no, no, no, let's discuss this thing through so that there's understanding. And I believe that's love, to be able to talk to someone and understand what they're saying, and if they are wrong, to correct them in all meekness and kindness and coming from below and instructing in that way. All the congregation members within the entire world

Members of the Kingdom of God have the Holy Spirit. It doesn't rest with the ministers alone. They do have a duty, and I respect the duty. However, there is potential to err. And so even with this continual forgiveness thing, I'm almost hearing, like, it's up to the LLC or else it's up to the ministers to make that decision that, no, indeed, this is not correct.

Ever since this thing started to come up, you know, a person reads a few things here and there, and I believe it was in the large catechism where I read about continual forgiveness, and it explained, if I remember correctly, that when, even before we're born, God approaches us, and he says, you are mine, and gives that promise that he will always be with us. And he is, it's us as people that break that bond and that relationship

But with continual forgiveness, there is essentially two pieces to it. First, this forgiveness is between man and God. That was a promise from the very beginning and continues to exist through our futures. And the second piece is that we have forgiveness between each other. We need that.

How else would love be restored when it's broken? And how else can we take care of those things that really bother us and come on the conscience? But we live in continual forgiveness and it's of God. And that's where I think sometimes people are, I've wondered, is that where the confusion is? That they don't like the sense that continual

It means that you don't need to ask for forgiveness. No, it's continual forgiveness with God, that portion of forgiveness. And maybe I understand that incorrectly, but that's what I thought I read. Yeah, if we feel that it's in our confession that we are saved, that's our work, and we know that

Our salvation is not a mutual work with God. Why would Christ have had to be born and die for our sins? All our sins, even the sins that we have not yet committed, all the world's sins were forgiven when Christ died on the cross. I don't know, I don't think I have anything else. But I like the idea of

Someone else said the freedom to speak and I guess this is my last thought that I get really worried when I hear that some people are not welcome to the discussion. This is God's kingdom and I believe that we're a level-headed flock and there should be

Conversation, encouraged, not discouraged, because that gives that sense of the governance of the house of God. I can see where that might exist. So just, those are my thoughts. Patrick, Paul Pilvine is next.

Mine will be pretty short. I was looking at Romans 14, and take us back to the beginning where Russell said from minister's camp that the joy that was there, if I can find it. For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

I'm very happy to hear all the joy that was there. My wife and I are raising a four-year-old kind of part-time and so we're a little bit out of the loop in getting places but sometimes I wonder if I mentioned the story the other day that

Kathy Waaraniemi. I raised my hand a long time ago and I have no idea what I was going to say. Well, that'll be a short speech then.

I had a lot of thoughts because I've sat through the annual meeting and the Sunday's meeting and tonight's meeting just listening and I have no idea what I was going to say.

I have, okay, I'll keep it really short. I had a longer speech, but I have felt a lot of trouble in my heart in the last, I don't know how long, but it isn't for the reasons that I'm hearing tonight that there's self-righteousness and law-mindedness and spiritual abuse and gaslighting or whatever the terms are that are used.

But for me, what exhausts me is academic arguments and debates, doctrinal hair splitting, and just...

It's just like an academic sense to faith that I have never felt before. And I think faith just needs to be so simple, and it can be so simple. And I just... Just so many things recently that many times I've gone home just sad and distressed and... And I...

I haven't felt peace. And I can't explain to you why. But my spirit has been troubled, but I know that saying that is offensive to some. And I can't explain why. But it's just been really difficult.

And I agree with Paul that the joy is gone, it's missing.

And I wonder about, for example, focusing on the 70s and 80s. Does God really want us to do that? Are we supposed to look backwards at sins? Or are we supposed to look forward to heaven? And there's so many things that we can...

Find fault with and I picture God's kingdom kind of as a ship and we go to the left and we go to the right but God is at the helm all the time and we he will guide it and he will make sure that it comes back to the middle and if we think that we have to never again experience the 70s and 80s

Then maybe we might look back so long that we trip on the roots that are in front of our feet. And so we'll go to the left and we'll go to the right, but God will bring us back to the middle. We need to trust God in these things. And so I don't know what I'm saying anymore, but I just wonder, and this is what I pondered, that is there a diminishing of the

The beauty of the Holy Spirit. Is there a diminishing of the beauty of the gospel, which is our treasure that we can put sin away and free ourselves from the things that attach to us every day? Yes, we have grace every day, but we have permission to put sin away. And so is there a diminishing of the Holy Spirit? Is there a diminishing of the

The beauty of the gospel? I don't know. But anyway, I just have been very, very troubled and doubting and I need to hear the gospel. Can I believe my sins forgiven? We believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name in blood. Todd Anderson. Can I say something really quickly? Please. Todd was going to be the last.

Okay, you're second to the last. Okay, real quick. So I attended the last meeting on Sunday and I had this same thought that came up afterwards after hearing a comment. And it was that if you were to ask any of the guys in this congregation who aren't board members or ministers, who would be the next board member who would raise their hand first? Or who wants to be put up for ministry? And I could bet that no one would raise their hand really quickly.

And we need to remember as congregation members that we need to pray for these guys that they're first, you know, are preserved in faith and that they follow the teaching of the word and for the ministers that they're given strength to preach the gospel. So we need to be careful in saying that ministers, you know, may not err or feel that they don't err because I would say in most of the sermons that I hear, many times they're saying that they're

They have the least amount of faith but they feel very sinful and they ask for the gospel. The other thing is in regards to the two spirits and how we can say if there's two spirits or not. I've pondered this question maybe for the last year and a half and thought maybe it was my own thinking that maybe there was something myself wrong first. I know that if you're too critical of a minister sometimes you won't receive food.

But over time I've just come to realize that in certain speeches either my spirit says amen or it doesn't and that's the simple thing of what I've come to conclude is that's just where it is at and I've wondered if you don't feel if there isn't two spirits then why do you or how can you not feel it because it just seems so evident. I had many other thoughts but those were my two first and foremost ones.

It's 5 to 10, so this time I'm serious. Todd's the last one. I had a question that we could probably talk about for hours, so I guess I won't ask it. But first and foremost, I just have to say, feeling my own doubts and heaviness and sinfulness, can you forgive me? I believe in all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, amen.

Now to try and gather my thoughts in regards to, since I know there's not gonna be more discussion, I was hoping we could be. But there's this, I'm glad that there's been freedom of you who have said that you feel there is self-righteousness and law-mindedness. I'm glad for that. We need to discuss that.

And my question is this, that what is that? What is being, what is self-righteousness? I once was accused of being self-righteous, and I'll have to tell you that when you're accused of being self-righteous, at least for me, when I was told that I was self-righteous, my head sank.

I would say it cut to the bone. It hurt. And finally I asked this brother, I said, well, okay, what do you mean? How am I self-righteous? And he said, well, you do everything. You song lead. At that time I was chairman of the youth work committee. And he listed all my duties that I have been asked to do. And I,

I didn't have anything to say other than I just simply told them I said I have never volunteered for any of these duties. In fact, many times I very reluctantly do them. So I guess when I hear this sometimes I wonder what does that mean?

Sometimes I get the sense or the feeling that when brothers, or I shouldn't say brothers, but those in the congregation are rebuking, that is self-righteousness. God's Word is very clear on that we need to rebuke, chasten those

Who are erring. And I get very nervous when I hear of that maybe I'm being too self-righteous if I talk of sin.

I feel that we, especially as Speaker Brothers, need to speak of sin. We also need to speak of God's grace, too. We want to bring that message of joy, but we also do need to remind even God's congregation of the dangers of sin.

And do we as God's children, do we do things because we can, because we have the freedom, or do we do them so we wouldn't fall into sin? And of course, you know, there's that whole, we can talk a lot about freedom,

But I just want to say that it feels that some have said that there has been mistreatment and I wholeheartedly disagree. I wholeheartedly disagree. I would say that those brothers have been concerned and there has been

And now is not the time to talk about those or the right forum, but I would say that there has been, and when there's concern inside God's kingdom, when we have concern for the souls of men, we bring it up and it's not done as a Lord over

The other people, but it's done for their soul's sake. And maybe even as we move forward, try to, if someone has maybe come across as harsh, if I've come across as harsh, I would hope that

Someone could come and visit with me about that because I've had experiences when I've tried to come in love to a dear brother and he told me how I came from above and I was saddened that I did that and I was I wanted to take care of that but sometimes when we do come we try come in weakness we try come in love

Sometimes it is felt from above and sometimes it is done from above. And that's our weakness as humans. And we need to even take care of that also. But I would just say that please, dear brothers and sisters, that my experience has been that things have tried to be taken care of and loved,

And may we, if you've heard things, may we even approach those who you think that haven't or heard that haven't, and let's discuss them and go from there. But we do, I think, going forward even, I do feel that there are more things that we can discuss, i.e.

Like fruits of faith and that, because I feel that the fruits of faith are showing, the fruits are showing, and we need to discuss even this in a congregation level. But I guess that's all I have for this evening.

Okay, thank you all for coming and Russ is going to lead us in prayer. Dear brothers and sisters, it's a conversation that obviously is going to continue. There's lots

Discussion yet that needs to happen. I think that's important that we do continue this conversation. Obviously there's, as many have commented already, that there are things that we would need to expand on. But at this point in time, because of the time has gone on, we need to bring this to a close. So I think it's important this evening that we close with that assurance that the congregation of God is built

On that best of cornerstones. And Jesus promises that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. He will lead and guide and take us

Through the trials and the battles so that we can all be victorious. And it's not because of any power or special gifts or things that any one of us has, but because God has given to each of his children the gift of faith, sealed it with the Holy Spirit in your hearts.

Lift up your hearts, dear brothers and sisters, and believe that all of your sins are forgiven. In Jesus' name, in blood. In Jesus' name. In Jesus' name. In Jesus' name, in blood. In Jesus' name. In Jesus' name, in blood. In Jesus' name, in blood. In Jesus' name, in blood. In Jesus' name, in blood, dear brothers and sisters, all of your sins are forgiven. In Jesus' name, in blood, sins are forgiven. In Jesus' name, in blood, sins are forgiven. That is the assurance I want.

Take us to the glory of heaven. Let's close by saying the benediction all together. The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. I need to ask for my own self. Can I believe my sins forgiven?

I desire to live together with you. I'm assuming we have a closing song.