Start. There is a roster coming around. Those who have not filled it out, raise your hand and we'll get someone to bring it to you. Scott, if you want to go find out where the roster is. Has everybody filled it out? Has everybody filled it out besides Steve here? Has everyone signed in on the roster?
All right, John. Well, as I guess most of you, if not all of you brothers can imagine, it's a little bit of a challenge to
Collect and organize any thoughts. I guess we all are having a hard time getting the butterflies to fly in formation today. And I think we all recognize that
You know, the issues that have kind of led to this meeting are related to this scheduling question, but they are just, the scheduling issues are just kind of, I believe, sort of a byproduct then of the underlying issues that have
I've troubled our Zion here for the last several years. It struck me, I remember it was at the annual meeting, I guess it was maybe the Speakers and Elders meeting this summer, Brother Bruce there to my
What is that, right? Bruce Johnson kept a speech there in which he, you know, I think expressed his thoughts and I think those of us that were there could feel Bruce's anguish in his words and I'm sure that many of you, like me, have
Had some sleepless nights considering these issues. I have recently, when I was visiting with one brother, said that, well, I know what I believe. I can't say that I necessarily know what maybe others believe. And I hope that
You know, at this meeting today, and when I say that, you know, we hear a lot. But I find it personally difficult to draw conclusions based on things that maybe I'm hearing because I know things can get...
Distorted. I know I've been on that end of it that things that I have said have been distorted or misinterpreted or whatever the case may be. So I hope that this morning everybody here would feel free to
Openly speak of the issues that concern them, that none of us would be afraid in any way. And I know, again, from personal experience, as many of you brothers also know, it's not easy.
If you have a perspective or an understanding that is different than somebody else has expressed, whether it's one individual or then a group of individuals who may have spoken before you, it's not easy to then express a different perspective, a different opinion. But I have always felt
And believe that, you know, we need to, for our own conscience sake, speak as we believe. And for me, if I go away with a different mind than everybody else, I know it's just going to gnaw at me anyway. So it's better to speak and be open
And as I mentioned in the opening prayer, I hope that we can all try to understand one another, the perspective also of those who have a different opinion. In some things, I think that
We may disagree and sometimes we have to say that the disagreement has to do with our understanding of God's Word in some particular point. It has been my belief and I know certainly of
Many dear brothers, we understand and we believe and have always understood and believe that God's Word is the highest guide and authority. And that remains the case and we continue to believe that. But I think that
Sometimes we recognize we don't always understand God's Word in the same way. And where there are those kinds of differences, we need to be able to speak about that. And where we may look at a situation and try to apply God's Word to it, we also need to consider whether or not
The perspective and the application are correct and hear one another in that. I want to say especially to you, dear Wolf Lake brothers, I understand that you probably come here feeling like you're in the minority.
And that may very well be the case, but I hope that you would feel free and that you would understand that we want to, in a spirit of brotherly love, be able to discuss these issues.
We ought not, and you ought not, to be afraid. I think we all hope and pray that the spirit of love and openness would prevail here. As far as the spiritual issues,
I don't want to say anything at this point. Let's let the meeting go there. But like I have said, I feel like I have more questions than I have answers. And I would like to hear what those of the same mind
Other minds have to say about issues. Okay, the floor is open. I would ask you to raise your hand. I'll try to write you down and call on you in that order. So be open, be free. There's coffee and water and goodies over in the corner. Feel free to help yourself as needed.
Al. Thinking about what John just said there, you mentioned that you have more questions than answers. I think that we all do. At the same time, I feel that over the last several years we have talked a fair amount
I think many of us have confessed our own faith. I think this is good. I think if there's a question, we perhaps need to be pretty blunt with each other. I personally, maybe I'm somewhat slow in some ways. I actually need a pointed question, not quietly trying to get an answer out of me or whatever. But I'm more than happy to answer any question if I know what I'm being asked.
But I don't always know. In the meantime, I do believe that my sins are forgiven. And I think that's the most important matter. But if there's any questions, I think all in Wolf Lake, since you did mention us, John, I think all of us feel the exact same way, that we would love you to ask the questions, ask the hard questions. I don't know what to answer if I'm not asked.
But I would love to leave here today unified with each and every one of you.
Keith. And feel free to raise your hand while he's speaking. If you have something, I'll write it down. I probably, along with a lot of you, am at a loss to where to start, what to speak about, and I really appreciate John's opening remarks and opening prayer in the spirit of that.
And what Al just said, that's my prayer and hope, too, that all of us would leave here unified in one mind and spirit and love. These past few years have been very troubling, and we've had many discussions, starting with the discussions
Arose from the questions that arose around Darwin's sermon from 2015 and I don't want to bring that up to single Darwin out but just that's a fact that that's been part of the discussions and in some sense really the way that these discussions in a more public way began. I don't think that that was the start
I don't think that was the origin of the questions. They had been percolating before that, especially if you go back to the 2011 meeting of Minnesota Midwestern Boards and Speakers in Rockford where we discussed the question of forgiveness and thought that that question was covered there
Only to realize when we began the discussions with, between some of us from LLC and Wolf Lake board members and speakers, only to realize in those discussions then that that question of forgiveness had been simmering under the surface and there was disagreement from
Some of the Wolf Lake brothers about the discussions that took place at that 2011 meeting of Midwestern boards. And so, of course, you're aware that we had the meetings between LLC and LLC brothers and Wolf Lake and Wolf Lake speakers and board members.
Three or four of those meetings that culminated in the larger meeting that included the Minneapolis and Rockford boards at the Minneapolis church in April of 2016. And was it one week later that we had the minister's camp. And so the two items of discussion, two I think more central items of discussion, excuse me, in those meetings were
Was the concern that arose around the sermon that our brother Darwin kept at the summer services and then the question of forgiveness. And so those questions were discussed in these meetings and then we had the minister's camp and those discussions
Were reviewed there and discussed. And the brothers, all of us who were there, discussed those for a couple of days. I was very happy. I remember Saturday night of that meeting, the joy that was there. And when Darwin and Phil also wanted to take their own away,
Asked for forgiveness and forgiveness was preached and Darwin wanted his greetings relayed on from the camp and it felt so good. It felt like now we can move forward in unity and love but it didn't happen.
And I guess my question is, and I appreciate Al, you asking that we ask directly, and I want to be open and hopefully in love, but why, why did it, why did that joy and peace not continue? I have heard that, and
I want to be open about this, and Wolf Lake brothers can share their thoughts freely. And what I have heard may be wrong. But when Darwin and Phil took care of matters after the minister's camp in Wolf Lake, the gospel was preached, but basically it was said that you did nothing wrong.
From what I have heard, it feels to me like the Wolf Lake congregation took a different approach, different understanding than the minister's camp, the conclusion that the minister's camp together we as brothers came to. And so it feels like if that's the case,
If we didn't, if the mutual understanding that was reached there at minister's camp was then somehow overturned, it feels to me like that's one of the reasons why we are yet where we are today.
Likewise, the question of forgiveness was discussed and clarified there. But the unity that was felt at camp perhaps wasn't shared by all. And so we go forward in this way.
I guess I'm concerned in this way that there isn't that unity between those of us that met, say, for example, from the LLC and the Wolf Lake Board and speakers. We either didn't reach unity of spirit and understanding
Or somehow the unity was lost since. I felt that in the discussions that we had together we were very open and we listened to each other and spoke openly and freely from our hearts. Yet I feel like in some way there was
Maybe an unwillingness on the part of the Wolf Lake brothers to continue the discussions. Even the very last meeting that we had in Brainerd, it didn't seem like the interest from Wolf Lake to attend really was there. And I'm not talking about this more recent one, but probably in about...
2017, sometime after the minister's camp, maybe in the fall after the minister's camp, or was it 2016? I don't remember the exact dates. But anyway, those are some thoughts of my heart. I feel there's a mistrust that exists, mistrust towards LLC, those who are serving LLC.
Mistrust towards certain speakers, board members. And why it's there, I think it would be good to discuss. So, those are some opening thoughts that I have, and I just want to be free and open with what's on my heart. Bruce. Okay. Huh?
I'm Bruce from Wolf Lake. I think what you said, Keith, is one of the huge problems is what you heard. This gossip and so-and-so said this, so-and-so that, and I'm not saying just you, all of us, is a huge part of this problem.
What you heard, I mean, and I'm not saying this to be critical. You weren't in Wolf Lake Church. I wasn't in the minister's meeting. But I feel when Darwin and Phil came back to the congregation, they were sincere in asking for forgiveness from the congregation if they caused confusion.
Maybe we should write down what the issues are. I'm starting to get confused what all the issues are. But from my perspective, and I have this question still out to the LLC that's in our meeting that's never been answered. And I will pose that question here today, and it's on the forgiveness issue. For with my simple understanding, when I read Bible,
It not only instructs us, but it commands us to always forgive. And for you guys, this is the question I posed at one of our meetings. Samuel, Saul, Esau, and Jacob, these have been used as reasons to withhold forgiveness. I said, I've heard different interpretation, but that being said, let's say, if you understand that
If God did withhold forgiveness, where in the Bible does it instruct a believer to withhold forgiveness? Now, none of us have ever said God can do what God wants to do. But what does the Bible tell us to do? You know, is that the confusion?
I mean, if it's some, I mean, this forgiveness issue, Keith, it goes back to when we discussed it, me and you at Winter Services down in Phoenix. It's gone, everything from withholding from an unbeliever, how you forgive a heretic. It's been all over. A gay person, you could inherit their sin, spiritual fornication, all these have been brought, you know. So this forgiveness issue has been all over the board.
But I believe that our intent should be to always forgive on this forgiveness issue. I'm not saying we would pray to God in whatever situation. This is why I don't go down hypotheticals or scenarios, because then man's carnal mind starts getting involved, and we should leave it to God in whatever situation that he would be there and guide us.
The robe of righteousness, now I don't profess that I have knowledge of it, but if it is the robe of Christ, it cannot be stained, and in our meetings it has been stated. When Roger said that he believes the robe of righteousness is Christ and it cannot be stained, he was told it can be stained.
You Menahga board members, you were in this meeting here when it was brought up by a speaker that there is a group of people out there that believe that the robe cannot be stained there in a wrong doctrine. Even that's never been corrected. But I would say that I felt Darwin and Phil were sincere when they came to the congregation. And, you know, I still have unanswered questions.
I'll leave it at that for now. I just want to very shortly follow up on what Bruce said.
I don't dispute what you're saying, Bruce, with regard to Darwin and Phil. And of course, I wasn't there. But the question that comes to my mind is that we left the minister's camp in unity and one-minded.
And gospel was preached. There was understanding with regard to the matter of forgiveness and with regard to the concerns around Darwin's sermon. And it felt bad to me that from Wolf Lake we never heard anything more about that. Other congregations were
Brothers had brought back greetings to other congregations of their happiness over what had taken place. But I would have hoped that when we had these discussions, these several discussions of board members and speakers from Wolf Lake and LLC, and we differed on these things, and then when we came to one heart and mind at the minister's camp, that somehow there would have been some
Correction, if you will, from Wolf Lake, that now we understand these matters the same way with the greetings that were brought back from the camp. And I felt bad about that, that there never was that kind of follow-up. So...
Al was sitting right next to me and he kind of asked that question that, you know, send me a pointed question. Even the way that he explained it, you know, right here that his sins are forgiven, you know, always. I mean, the way that he just told me and I was listening here, simply listening, is like his sins are always forgiven.
And it feels like that's the, when you say my sins are always forgiven, I just read something, and I don't feel that way as a believer. I feel like I have to get my sins forgiven as sins build upon my conscience. But it's, when in conversation with others, that seems to be the difference, like,
Your sins are always forgiven. I was going to read in a book here because I don't know how to remember things and speak them into mic, but like confession is not needed since absolution proclaimed and the original conversion is sufficient for a lifetime. When he said that his sins are forgiven, that it felt like forgiveness of sins is sufficient for a lifetime. And it doesn't feel like I believe that way.
And I don't think he does, but the way he said it right there, it felt like your sins are forgiven for a lifetime. I believe that sins build on my conscience and they need to be taken care of. Each person has different mana needed to keep their life of faith. So maybe he could clarify that to me right now. I will clarify that. I was just reading this morning 1 John 2:12.
Little children, I write unto you, for your sins are forgiven for his name's sake. He said, your sins are forgiven for his name's sake. When I read that, I'm reading it for Al Lake. I'm not pointing this at anybody else. I hope that each of you read it for your sake. These are very comforting words.
Your sins are forgiven for his namesake. That his is Christ. I don't think anybody here is questioning that. Christ died and rose victorious over sin. He took away the sins of the entire world and he has saved us. He's made us righteous. We are heaven acceptable. We believe it. This is such a simple message. This message is a proclamation.
This gospel message is a proclamation that your sins are truly forgiven. And you are heaven acceptable. If you can believe it. And I do. Does that mean that I never ask for the gospel? No. Of course not. It's the most beautiful message in the world. Of course I want to hear that. And I need to hear that.
But I'm not going to confuse my endeavor with my justification by faith. And so if we would look at this just a little bit differently, perhaps a different set of words, we have righteousness of faith and righteousness of life.
Righteousness of life does not give us righteousness of faith. Righteousness of faith has fruits which are righteousness of life. We call that our endeavor. How we believe, how we act is only a fruit of already being justified before God.
Everything you do outside of faith is sin. This is very clear. So if you're believing, you automatically wish to do that, which is right. Are we successful? No. Apostle Paul speaks of that in the seventh chapter of Romans. The good that I would, I do not. We all know that portion very well. And we all find it to be very close to us. Nevertheless, God does not impute our sins on us.
Because we believe on our Savior, Jesus Christ. And God says, no sin. Your names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Believe it. Could we remember to say our name and where we're from? Sam Roiko from Elk River.
I appreciate Al clarifying that because I had similar questions to what Lars had. But then to take another step back is the question where does the righteousness of faith come from? That we don't simply, we can't simply believe. So Paul also writes to the Romans that faith comes by hearing and hearing by and through the word of God. That as the
The Finnish saying is that what grace brings, sin consumes. And he also writes the Corinthians in the second Corinthians in the fifth chapter that he has entrusted us with this word of reconciliation that the endeavor of faith is
As important to speak about as it is true that we are justified by faith. But to also remember that faith, that there is, it's thought, as Luther writes, faith, the one mutual faith that is preached in the congregation, that we, it's not born alone somewhere, but it's
That faith that is preached in the congregation, as Paul writes in the beginning of the Romans, it goes from faith to faith. I think when we speak of that, all we have to do is simply believe it. We omit or overlook or neglect that fact that faith comes by hearing. Once again,
I guess maybe I should have clarified that I am not talking about one who is in the world already having faith. I assumed, obviously incorrectly, that we are speaking of those who are already in God's kingdom. If you're believing, your sins are forgiven.
I would just point out that Paul wrote the letter of the Romans to the believers in Rome. Yeah, I have one question. I have already this morning, and maybe many of you or some of you have had the thought
Being that this is recorded, I already made a promise that I'm not going to take a turn, and here I am. But one question I have is, my spirit does not answer that
My sins are always forgiven. There is something there that doesn't answer my spirit. Also, when forgiveness is being preached, I do have a pointed question to anyone, and especially to them who may think differently than I do. When you are being
Is that a reassurance that your sins have been forgiven all along? Or when you hear those messages, is that when you believe that your sins are forgiven? That's how I have been brought up and I have always believed.
Is that that's when they are being forgiven and that's when I can put them behind me. That it has not been a reassurance to me that your sins have been forgiven all along but you have just been too weak to believe it. So I'm wondering if someone can comment to that.
I would just have to say, if I didn't believe, I don't know how I could physically take care of all my sins. Tom Vilkama, Wolf Lake. I think the discussion between what Tommi said and Al says, I think reveals the doctrinal divide.
Very clearly. We can go back in writings and read about what is justification. We are sinful, completely sinful, but yet righteous simultaneously. And we don't sanctify the flesh through confession. And we
Have that battle against the flesh. The spirit in us battles daily against sin. And we've all felt as Apostle Paul that we have been faulty, lacking, unable to do good.
Prone to sin. And we spoke a couple years ago here in Menahga when Jon Bloomquist was here, and I brought up these three species of confession from Luther. I think if we could agree on these three species, and Jon, if you've had a change of mind, I'd like to know, but you clearly agreed. And I felt that it was good mutual understanding
On these three species of confession, but the first species of confession Luther talks about is one, the first species, or as a theological term, but a type of confession is that it happens to God. That one, in one's own heart, it is absolutely necessary that we see ourselves entirely sinful
Our complete inability to do good. And then we see the need for the Savior, Lord Jesus Christ. And then his righteous, as it says in Romans, is imputed to us for faith. And as you read in Ephesians, that it's by faith we believe, not by works, lest any man boast. So Luther's opinion is that there are three species, one to God,
Which is absolute necessary and a true believer is always making this confession to God. Dear God, save me from my sins. And we believe then that Christ was given to us for a perfect sacrifice. Then Luther talks about the second species of confession, dealing with offenses between brothers and sisters that come often. And he said it's a divine command that
We would seek out and try to make amends or corrections for offenses that come. And many of us are married between our spouses often an offense comes or from our friends. And the Spirit of God and that love of Christ in our heart desires to make correction for our offenses. And many sins, whether we steal something,
The correct action that's taught through Christ in our heart is to make amends, go speak of it, confess our faults, as it says in James, confess your faults one to another. And then Luther goes into the third species of confession. He said, while it is not commanded in Holy Scripture, it is commended because of the great value which it has for those who feel the need of consolation.
And the instruction for which it affords the opportunity. And oftentimes we have our own, maybe, sort of sin that can come upon us that we struggle with. And we can go talk to a brother and sister and be, I would say, in kind of a direct response, to tell me that be reassured that, yes, you can believe yet that sin forgiven. And then the consolation is given to us that we're
Yes, it gives us strength, the power of the gospel. And then it also affords an opportunity, as Luther says, for instruction, whatever that may be. Maybe someone is struggling with a personal issue or an addiction, that they can be helped in their endeavor of faith. And then I think Sam spoke about it's equally important, and correct me if I'm wrong, the endeavor of faith
The righteousness of life should be at the equal level of the righteousness of faith, and I don't believe that's correct. Christ is first, then all things follow from that.
Jim. Jim Frantti from God's country up in upper Michigan. You know, it's... I have the same question that Tommi asked.
And I know all of my life from childhood in God's kingdom, I have been taught that the gospel is not a reassurance that my sins have been forgiven ahead of time, but it is indeed the cleansing of the conscience from sin. And I think it's a very big distinction
To say that when Christ died on the cross, he paid for all of my sins, my whole lifetime's sins. They have all been paid. But that's different than saying that my sins, even of the future, are already forgiven ahead of time.
And so my question, and it's the same as Tommi's but said differently, is if we believe that sins are already forgiven without the gospel, then my question is, what is the effect of the gospel? Because I always understood that it cleanses from sin. But if there is no sin to cleanse, what is the effect then of the gospel?
And you know, I think about the words of Jesus when he said in giving the keys of the kingdom to his own that what you forgive on earth is forgiven in heaven. So if sins are forgiven in advance, what then is the message of Jesus saying?
So I think, to me, the experience of my lifetime is that sin stains my conscience. And I need a way to be freed from sin, to cleanse my conscience from sin. And that way is found in the gospel.
And fortunately, we live in a kingdom of grace where when we fall into sin and our conscience is stained or wounded, God doesn't cast us off. He cares for us with grace. He protects us with His grace. And we have the opportunity to approach the fountain of grace anytime we feel in need of that cleansing power of the gospel.
And to me, it's not just words. It's been the power of God in my life. I have to say, honestly, I could not sit here with you brothers today and think that I bear the name of a child of God were it not for the gospel and its power to cleanse me from sin.
And, you know, I think also of the examples of the Scripture that, for example, when Jesus was for the very last evening with his disciples, and I've thought, you know, if we were with our loved ones and we knew it was our very last moments with them, we would think, what's the most important thing I want to say to them? And Jesus, in that last evening with his disciples,
Wanted to wash their feet. And then he wanted to tell them, do this for each other. And that washing is not, to me, just a reassurance. It's an actual cleansing. And of course we know from Revelations the example of washing the robes and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. And so,
For me, this question of forgiveness and of the effect and power of the gospel is that in that I find that I have the forgiveness of sins. And it's not only when I have offended a brother or sister that I would need that. Sometimes, daily, I fall into sin in thought, word, and deed,
And maybe things that nobody else even knows about or was offended by, but my conscience was offended by. And I need the gospel for that also, not just to take care of offenses with brothers or sisters, although I do need it for that as well. So I think that we're before a very important question here. In fact, I remember, well, in fact, John,
Bloomquist was part of this discussion we had recently with a person from Africa, from Rwanda, who was inquiring about our faith. And we were joined by a brother from the SRK office. And this man wanted to know about our faith. He had read about things on our website. The first question that Finnish Brother asked him was, how do you believe that sins are forgiven?
Because it seems like that's one of the teachings of God's kingdom that distinguishes us from the world is that teaching of how sins are forgiven through the preached message of the gospel. So I think it's a very central matter to our faith and I know that it has been a very central matter for my life and I have needed it.
And then if you don't mind, I'd share a couple of other things once I have the mic. You know, there would probably be a lot of things to discuss and I know we've had many discussions about specific topics and it feels like we go round and round on them and then
When we're all done, we wonder where did we start and where did we end? But I feel like there's a couple of things on my mind. One is, Keith mentioned earlier this mistrust. And it does seem like there's a certain level of mistrust with some of
The local congregation boards and the LLC board and maybe even of some fellow believers. And that kind of, when we get that sense of mistrust, it's really troubling to feel. I can say to you that we have felt very much the unity of spirit, for example,
The brothers from SRK in Finland, we have talked openly about many of these topics and we have felt complete unity and that includes topics like is there ever a time when believers can't preach forgiveness or robe of righteousness or whatever the topic might be. We've discussed all of them with those brothers and have felt complete unity with them.
And in fact, when Bruce mentioned earlier the rumor mill, one of the rumors that came back to me was that the LLC brothers' understanding on forgiveness and robe of righteousness was corrected by Finnish brothers when they came here last year. And I am puzzled where that comes from, because in fact, what happened at those meetings was that
Those brothers asked that we would give a presentation to them on those issues, and they agreed with our understanding. So, you know, where those kinds of rumors come from, it's hard to say, but I just caution myself and all of us to be careful to repeat and to even accept things that we hear that we don't hear
A couple of things that have been on my mind and I'd put them out as questions or topics that I'd really like to hear your thoughts on. One is that it feels like for some there is still a lot of concern and maybe holding on to things from the caretaking
Period of the 70s and 80s. And I wonder if that is still troubling to some. It's a long time ago, I know. But we have said many times that there were errors made in the caretaking. There were errors made by those who were cared for. Parties on all sides, as far as I know, cared for their matters.
And it would be good to forgive them and forget. I heard one comment directly that maybe some of the brothers who are currently serving, for example, in LLC were mentored by those brothers who erred in some of the caretaking and now carry that kind of attitude.
I don't know who those brothers would be that were mentored. I know that I can say for myself that I just received the grace of repentance back in the late 70s from the heresy. And so I wasn't involved in the work or really in the meetings back then. But I do know that there was a period of time in my own life when I was in that sort of critical mind towards
The work of the kingdom, and I needed to be cared for. And then, I haven't shared this example, but I'd share it because it was a lesson for me. My parents at the time, back in the late 70s, 80s, they lived out in the southwest, and my father was met with there, and there was caretaking around him, and he was actually bound for a time.
And when I look back on it, I could easily say that I think there was some overshooting in the caretaking that was done with him. He did need care, but perhaps it went too far. But you know what I recall? My father repented. He took care of his matters. And I never once in the rest of his life heard him say a negative thing about those caretakers.
He was just happy that he could believe. He didn't care that they made mistakes in caring for him. He was more thankful that he could take care of his matters and just go on. And I think that's also what we need to do. If there were mistakes made, sure, and we still make them, don't we?
Let's forgive those things of the past and go on. I've remembered that example of my father as a lesson for myself not to hold on to things, even when some people do make mistakes in how they deal with me. If they're sincere in trying to help, why would I hold on to those and not be willing to forgive? And then the final topic
Maybe it was the original impetus for this meeting, I don't know, but it has to do with the calling of speakers. And I know that's been a question here in the rotation in Minnesota about calling of speakers, and some congregations' boards have struggled with this. Do they call this speaker or not? And by the way, to clarify one other thing from the rumor mill, the rumor mill
I received an email that had been sent not to me but to somebody else and then I received a copy of it that I had given advice to the Detroit congregation and board that they should not call our brother Phil Alajoki to serve there. I haven't met with the Detroit congregation or board in years and I've never given them that advice.
And I've never told any congregation board who to call or who not to call. And so it's really troubling and puzzling. Where do these kinds of rumors come from? I contacted the brother who had sent that email and he said, well, I guess I made a mistake. I heard that and I assumed it was true. And I said, yes, it was a mistake on your part. And that's the problem when we hear things
And instead of going to the source, pass them on. But even with regard to this decision, for example, I know that
The decision that Cokato made and that Brainerd made. And it's quite interesting. I was very, very recently talking with a brother from Finland. And this subject came up about the decisions that were made here on Calling Speakers. And this brother said, you know, in our home congregation in Finland, we had a brother serving there.
And that brother was on the rotation for our area to go to other congregations. He went to serve in another congregation and after that service weekend, the chairman of that RY called our chairman and said, I just want you to know that we don't feel we can call that brother anymore. The congregation was
Troubled by his sermon and we don't feel we can have him serve here anymore. So this kind of question or decision is not unique to North America. And sometimes we hear that in Finland everything is different than here. It hasn't been my experience at all. They believe the same there. They face the same struggles there.
But I just, I hope that if there are, especially any of those who are still troubled about those caretaking days of 30 or 40 years ago, that those could be put to rest. Because they're gonna bring us down. If we don't forgive things of the past, it's not those people who were involved in the past that are hurt by it, it's ourselves.
It drags us down if we can't forgive and forget. Don Lahti, then Al Lake and Tom Vilkama. So many different thoughts have gone through my mind since I asked to or raised my hand to speak.
But I have to go back to our opening prayer this morning. I was touched when our brother mentioned how we, I forget the words, but that we are before the Almighty God and the Holy Spirit. And we have to agree that when we gather in such a way that we are gathered today, that God is here present as a triune God, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Also I want to mention how I had many requests yesterday and even this morning I had three or four text messages saying that they are remembering us in prayer here at this meeting. That they would hope and pray that we would be able to return in unity of spirit.
Jim touched upon a lot of things. I hope I can remember to comment on some of those too. But Bruce mentioned earlier about not forgiving anybody. And right away I'll go back to what Jim spoke, that these difficulties of the 70s and 80s, it seems like there are people yet today
That have not forgiven those issues, have not forgiven those people. And I speak from experience because I have throughout the years been in contact with many believers and in Florida especially, and there I have heard from years ago criticism of the LLC
Criticism of the 70s and the 80s. Criticism of what takes place in the LLC office. They go there and they're just sitting around at their desks doing nothing. So this same criticism has continued through their descendants to yet today. And that is why we are
Hearing and seeing this criticism today of the local boards of the LLC. Fortunately, I had the opportunity to attend the congregation meeting in Rockford this past summer, and I couldn't believe my ears of the criticism attack towards the local board there and the criticism of the LLC.
Also, I attended the two meetings in Minneapolis. And I have to say, I was astounded with the criticism. Where is this coming from? I think we all know where it's coming from. As far as not forgiving anybody, or not forgiving all the time, there's places in the Bible, and I'll read one of them from John,
20:23, I can see here. Whosoever sins you remit, they are remitted unto them. And whosoever sins you retain, they are retained. And these are Jesus' own words. Why did he put them there? Because there are circumstances that forgiveness cannot be preached.
You can find that, I think it's in Matthew as well. I'm forgetting some of the things that I was going to say. Oh, okay, now. When I heard Al Lake speak, I have to agree with what Tommi and others have mentioned. I was confused.
It seems like the spirit did not come clear. I'm not disagreeing with a lot of the quotations that you read from scripture. They are factual. But my question arises from the fact that why doesn't something answer to the spirit? And that is,
Why we are here today to try to come to an understanding. I'll touch upon the question that came up about Brainerd not calling Darwin there. For many months, at least three or four months before he was scheduled to come, questions came up from the congregation
What are we going to do? What's the board going to do? They have heard comments from other congregations where the spirit evidently did not answer. We struggled with it on the board. I'm not on the board, but I attend the board meetings. And each time, each meeting we said, we just don't have a good reason.
Not to call him. And the questions kept abounding. Finally, there was this meeting that was called here in Menahga of Cokato and Menahga and Wolf Lake. And at the last minute, Steve Collette from Brainerd was invited to come. He was reluctant to come because he hadn't been invited formally, but the brothers
He invited him anyway. And as it turned out, only one member from Wolf Lake board and speakers attended that meeting. And correct me if I'm wrong, I had heard, and I'm going to speak openly so it'll come out clear here at this meeting whether what I heard was right or wrong, that Wolf Lake received the letter of invitation
Which they were asked to read before the congregation, which was never read. And also the board met after the service and made a decision that they would not attend that meeting. So I'm just going to bring that out so that can be clarified here today. But it was as a result of that meeting then that it came clear, not only to Steve Collette, but many, many of the others
Something is drastically wrong. And since the congregation had already, in Brainerd, expressed a concern about it, Steve simply called all the board members, including myself and Reino, who is not on the board either, and we all agreed that it be best that we do not call him. So, these are some of the
Things that came to my mind, and there were other things, but they slipped, and when I remember them, I'll try to ask for a turn. Tom. Okay, Tom Vilkama again, Wolf Lake.
I want to go back to the discussion about sanctification, or I should say, rather, justification. And I feel like this is, it was going in a good direction, the meeting. We started to discuss doctoral concerns, and we kind of got sidetracked again a little bit into different rumors. And, you know, offenses come and faults come, even when matters are well between even believers. So, you know,
Want to ask for forgiveness if I've offended anybody first. Could you bless me? I [want] to put those, any faults behind us. And I think if we can read scripture and come to unity on these scriptural matters, then all things will be well. And at MBMAC recently, there was one speech, actually, John, it sounded like I'm picking on you,
You mentioned that there is not a doctrinal difference, that maybe you referenced a portion, I think in Timothy, about maybe there's endings and bitterness. But I hear a doctrinal difference here today, this morning. And I feel it's good that we turn to scripture to discuss this. There was a, at the time of the early church, there was
A big debate over whether circumcision was necessary or not, and most are very well read on the Acts. So if we go to the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 15, when Paul and Barnabas met, they met in Jerusalem to discuss this point of contention. And at that time, it said there was no small dissension or disputation. So there's a time of great conflict and debate there.
But they discussed the matters and once it was determined that the circumcision was not necessary, then all the matters then went away. There was an agreement that those that had clung to that Old Testament even tradition, they were able to release that. But I want to just read a couple points here.
But there rose up a certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying that it was needful to circumcise them and to command them and to keep the law of Moses. And apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter, which I think we're here to consider. And there had been much disputing. Peter rose up and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us that
Gentiles, by my mouth, should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bear them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us. So it's referring to Cornelius and that when they were converted there and they received this Holy Spirit and became believers. And put no difference between us and them
Purifying their hearts by faith. So they were made pure by faith. Now therefore, why tempt ye God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved even as they. And it's interesting that the point there about faith is what sanctified their heart. And if we...
Go back and there's very, a book that everybody should, most people have, a treasure hidden in a field written by Juhani Uljas. He speaks about this grace gift of confession. I think recently I had read a Finnish article that had talked about different tools to help us in our faith life, from confession, communion,
Fellowship of the Saints. These are all good and precious gifts from God. This is on page 92 from The Treasure Hidden in a Field. Therefore, confession is a God-given gift to us that helps us in our endeavor of faith. We go to make confession just as much as a believer as when we return.
The word of absolution that belongs to confession has simply freed our consciences from heavy burdens. The performance of confession does not cleanse our consciences, but belief in the word of absolution. God does not cleanse our hearts by confession, but by faith. And Uljas there references then that portion in Acts. Luther concludes the above-mentioned expectation to confession thus simply,
Therefore, when I urge you to go to confession, I am simply urging you to be a Christian. So I think there's some interesting way that Uljas wrote that we go to confession just as much as a believer, meaning we're still justified by faith, but we may have a matter that's clinging to us. Sometimes we can have some sin that maybe we can feel burdened by, and we need to,
As it says in Hebrews, that we would lay aside every sin and weight that besets us, looking on to the author and finisher of our faith, that then we would look to Christ. And actually, Raattamaa also wrote, who many know Raattamaa from the time of Laestadius. He wrote to, in 1878, he spoke about confession.
And as for your question about confession and enumeration of sin, Elder Raattamaa answered that public confession of sin does not have to be broader than secular law permits. Neither is sin paid for or removed by the sword of secular law punishing the body. Nor do we consider it correct that anyone would be saved only by confession of sin, even if we were to confess all sins to every person. Neither is confession of sin that which purifies the heart and conscience. And here you can see that common
The thread of that faith purifies the heart and the conscience. Neither is confession of sin that which purifies the heart and conscience, but it is the innocent and bloody merit and righteousness of Jesus received by faith, as those that were in the house of Cornelius, that purifies the heart and conscience from all mortifying works to serve the living God.
Who's next? Scott. Scott Hillstrom from Menahga. I really appreciate the openness.
Here, I think there has been a lot of confusion, especially in those that have not been able to be involved in some of these meetings and the rumor mill and then many things that get said. And I've been in several discussions that I say I don't have the answers, you know. But I think this issue around confession and forgiveness has been maybe
Misunderstood by those that say you have to and those that say you don't need it. And they both are true. And I would say that, you know, my thoughts are a little bit jumbled, but when I always go back to my youth and I think of
You know, when Apostle Paul tells Timothy to keep faith and a good conscience, I wonder, you know, I say, why did he teach that, you know? How do we keep a good conscience? And then, I've always been taught that we put sin away. And I know that the gospel is both reassurance and power.
I think it does reassure us that we can be forgiven for all those sins that we don't know. Because I know there's a lot more that I don't know than I do know. And like is said, we're unworthy. If we confess that we're unable on our own part to get to heaven because of our own works and the way that we're lost already if we think we can do it,
I think sometimes this issue, this discussion, at least from my experiences, has been that the question around why it's come up is more concerning than the question itself. And it has led to some discussions that
You know, from my youth, it has always felt right that when I feel something bothering me, I can put it away and it does cleanse my conscience. I realize, like Al said, that when, you know, we are saved by faith and our sins are forgiven, but, you know, there are those times when it carries a name. A sin carries a name and it bothers us
And it is for this life that the burdens are eased by hearing the gospel message. So it's power there also, and reassurance. I was in a discussion with one speaker brother, and I just said, you know, I've just always believed that we keep faith in a good conscience and put sin away as it attaches. And it's simple, but it's not easy.
And the question came then, what do you mean by putting sin away? So there was this thought that I feel like he thinks I have to put every sin away, and it's this confessional doctrine that I'm stuck in, and I don't believe that. I feel like this question around confession and forgiveness has been maybe misunderstood by some, but correct me if I'm wrong,
I would say that it's true that God sees us as believers and our sins are forgiven, but we also can free sins that come on our conscience and they're buried forever in the sea of grace if we hear the gospel. Maybe I'm causing more confusion, but those are my thoughts. Jim.
Yeah, first of all I say I agree with what I heard Tom just his speech a little while ago. What he said is agrees with my understanding on things. I'm a little bit puzzled about the topic of confession coming up so much because I haven't heard any wrong teachings on confession. I've only heard a thought that it's a grace privilege
If we personally feel the need for it, it's a privilege that we have in God's kingdom to speak about matters to someone and care for them. And I've not heard a teaching that it's a demand or that there's any kind of work of man attached to it in any way. And I kind of like the example I shared many times. I was visiting with a
Older brother from Finland once who has since gone to his rest. But he was telling me that, he said, you know, a young, believing young man came to me one time and he was troubled because he said, I don't know if I've properly practiced confession in my life. And he was troubled by that. And he said, so I asked him, well, have you ever fallen into some sin that particularly troubled your conscience?
And he said, well, of course, many times. And he said, well, what did you do? Did you speak to someone about it and have it forgiven? And he said, yes. And he said, well, then you've practiced confession. It's not some complicated thing. It's not some work of man. It's a privilege of grace that we can go to a brother or sister and be freed from anything that troubles us.
And so since, you know, as I often say, if we use that grace privilege of confession, we're not telling God anything. He knows the sins we don't even know. We're not telling Him anything. We're just trying to be free ourselves. And while Luther certainly taught that confession is not a work and not a requirement, he also taught that he would defend that.
To the ultimate, because it has been so important to him in his life as a believer. John. Jon Bloomquist, Menahga. Tom's mentioned me a few times in comments I've made.
Just a clarification, going back to the MBMAC meeting. I believe what I said, or at least what I tried to say there regarding doctrinal differences was, this was based on your letter to the Cokato board. I think there that there was this suggestion that maybe we'll find that our differences are only perceptions and not reality.
What I was trying to say was, if that's the case, if there are no doctrinal differences, what is it that's causing all this turmoil? I don't know if there are doctrinal differences or not. I hope there aren't. But I would say
One of the things that has puzzled me almost from the beginning of these last three years is that many of the issues that have come up, whether it's the forgiveness question,
The Robe of Righteousness question, confession, or now this question of justification. It seems to me that there are those who are speaking to what they perceive to be a problem that I don't see that this has been a problem. Not in recent years.
I, to be honest with you, I have no clue where the question about the robe of righteousness ever came from. I don't understand why that has become an issue. I remember the MBMAC meeting a couple years ago when this was being discussed that Joe, I wasn't there, I was not able to be there that day, but I was listening remotely, and I remember that
Joe Wuollet made a comment during the discussion as he listened and there was this seeming like two different viewpoints there and I thought Joe hit the nail on the head. He said in the one case we're talking about the righteousness of Christ when we talk about robes and in the other case we're talking about our conscience and care for our conscience and you know if you try to
Equate or mix these two, well, you're going to be confused. They're not the same. They're not the same thing. But, you know, I've gotten a sense, in fact, they had a text message this morning from one young man that referred to, you know,
Some of these quotes, whether it's Juhani Uljas or Erkki Reinikainen or I don't know who all were there. But I've had some discussions with others about those same things. And here this fall I had an opportunity to be in a Skype conversation with two brothers. One was from Finland. They were going on a mission trip and I've gotten to know him.
Well, in recent years, I think. We got to talking a little about the general situation, and I told him, I said, you know, I've been reading SRK publications for over 30 years, and I've been blessed with the opportunity to spend close to three years in Finland
I've gotten to know many brothers and sisters well, been involved in many long, deep conversations with brothers whose understanding I have come to value greatly and who have served in positions of trust for years in Finnish Christianity.
And I've always thought that, you know, we believe the same. And now I've heard some who have said that, well, you know, when this new doctrinal book comes out and you see that, then you'll see that there's this wrong understanding in American Christianity.
And it's similar to what Jim referred to our meeting would be two years ago in April, this notion that, you know, SRK brothers corrected our understanding on the robe of righteousness and confession or justification. I don't remember exactly what they were there, but I was present at all of those meetings.
And I've had conversations about those issues with several of those brothers on other occasions. We've always believed and understood in the same way. Juhani Uljas's book has been quoted. I can say with complete honesty, Juhani Uljas was one of my best friends. He's 30 years older than me, but he was a dear, dear friend.
He spent nights in my home. I spent nights in his home. We've had many, many discussions about these things. We believe in the same way. And it somehow puzzles me that when some of you seem to read, you know, whether it's Juhani's book or Erkki Reinikainen's writings, and I've read all of his books,
Some of them several times. Familiar with his teaching. Why you see something different in our understanding. It's not to say that everybody can articulate it as clearly as those brothers have. Or that everybody's grasp of those issues is
None of us have full and perfect understanding. But I know over the years I have spoken about these things. Tom referred to my comments at the MBMAC meeting. I spoke there about Paul's letter to the Ephesians when he said that you are saved by grace.
And through faith, and that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God. That reflected, my comments reflected my understanding. I've kept presentations on confession or other topics. I've spoken about them. And to my knowledge, that's how other
Dear brothers whom I work with and whom I visited with, how they have understood these things. So, that's why I think and others have thought that are these really the real issues? Or is there something else that is
A line under them. And, you know, we get, I remember that meeting here that Tom referred to when we discussed Robe of Righteousness, Menahga and Wolf Lake and Brainerd. We're talking about this term. I remember at the meeting I said, brothers, let's forget the term for a minute. I want to confess how I believe.
When I got done, I think you guys all said, yeah, that's how we believe. A few minutes later, we're back on the term robe of righteousness. And why? Why is that the case? Like I also said at the MBMAC meeting, if I remember correctly, and maybe I don't, but it's true now. I'm very interested in
Theological questions, they just, I'm curious. But I don't want to have to be a doctor of theology to be a child of God, to get to heaven. And I don't, I'm not convinced, Tom, for example, that this question of justification is really the issue. I think in American Christianity,
We believe the same way that they believe in Finnish Christianity, the same way that SRK in the book presents that. And we end up, you know, you want theological terms like are used in the book. There's the term favor Dei, God's favor, and donum Dei, the gift of God. That refers exactly to what is spoken of in Hebrews, or not Hebrews, Ephesians.
2:8 through 10 there. And here when brothers are speaking about caring for the conscience and the forgiveness of sins, our focus is on the second part of that, the gift of faith. I think we all understand what Christ has done is done. We can't undo it. We can't diminish it.
We cannot mar it or corrupt it. That's done, like Luther explains when he speaks about the Creed. Creation is past, redemption is done or complete. But sanctification goes on. And that belongs to this, this care for conscience belongs to that part of our life. And when brothers have spoken about that, there have been those who have
Kind of rejected that and suggested that's the work. Confession is the work. When I was growing up, I grew up in the Catholic Church. I was required to go to confession, you know, once a week. Then it became once a month because, you know, the possibilities were less with the priest. But, you know, there is something therapeutic. I think we all recognize that. If you confess,
Your wrongs to somebody. But I never found peace in that. The priest pronounced an absolution, but the Holy Spirit wasn't there, and so it had no effect. And I guess that all of these brothers that are here, if you went to speak to another brother about some matters that were troubling you,
You wouldn't feel very good about it, and you wouldn't feel free if you didn't proclaim the gospel to you. You would have still confessed, but you would have left feeling lacking, that you didn't get what you wanted. And when that's the case, I don't think we can say that confession is a work, because that's not what you're taking
And I would say, for example, Al, that some of the things that you said about forgiveness and
Like absolution, for example, here this morning, are not the same as things that you have said to me in one long private conversation. So, you know, that creates a little confusion. And like I've said, and I think I've said it to you and others, in that conversation, when we were done, I wasn't sure if I knew what Al believed.
And I wasn't even sure if I knew what I believed. It was that kind of confusing and talking about terms and stuff. And that, again, brings me back to that, that, you know, let's not get bogged down in that, brothers. We don't have to be doctors of theology to be believers. We have little children. Some of you have grandchildren. They believe simply.
We can believe in the same childlike way. It doesn't mean that doctrinal issues are not important. They are. But, as I said, it seems to me that some are speaking to issues that I don't believe are issues.
And that's kind of what's confusing. So that's it for now. Al, is there a mic close? Yeah, in response to this, John, your comment
That you did not feel that justification is truly the issue. Justification by faith. I believe that if we are unified on justification by faith, everything else falls into place. The rest of these things don't matter one bit.
And we will all walk out of here as brothers when we believe that we are saved through the merit works of Christ. To go a step further, I don't think anybody cares about rumors, to be honest with you. I sure don't. You know, if somebody has something bad to say about me, feel free, but I really don't care.
I know where my salvation lies and I know each and every one of you do too. I don't think you really care if somebody talks about you behind your back either. Who's next?
Keith. My thoughts are similar to what we've heard from some of the brothers. Lastly, John, is that I hesitate or I tend to feel like the issues that we have been discussing, the robe of righteousness,
Confession, the matter of justification, Watchmen on the Walls of Zion, that I don't think those are the, maybe not the issues that are really dividing us
And yeah, there's certainly something to those matters that they're very important topics. And there are, I think, some who are understanding those differently than others. But somehow, my feeling is that some of these questions originated
Out of the concerns over the caretaking of the 70s and 80s, that's what we were discussing in 2011 at the MBMAC meeting when this question of forgiveness came up. And I think it's important to understand, and I would say also in response to what you said earlier, Bruce,
I think it's very important to understand what the question was. The question was not of withholding forgiveness. The question was, could there ever be a time? Could there ever be a time? That was the question. There was no discussion of withholding forgiveness, the desire to withhold forgiveness at that meeting.
That was not, brothers answered that question, used the examples from scripture that you cited, Saul and Samuel, for example, and answered, yes, there could be, but no one was looking for this thought of being able to withhold forgiveness for this reason or that reason. I agree with you that hypotheticals are not beneficial, and I believe in the discussions, and I say this to my,
Of myself, too, is when you get into hypotheticals, it's not constructive. And I feel my own errors in that. But that was the question. Could there ever be a time? That question was simply answered there. And the answer wasn't accepted. I don't think there's any question here of anyone wanting to withhold forgiveness. That's false.
And I think it's very important to, in that question, to go back to what that original question was. Could there ever be a time? And that puts that into perspective. And I think that that meeting in 2011 was discussing the errors of the 70s and 80s. And there was acknowledgement. I kept the presentation there.
A review of some of the errors that had happened, and we used some material that the SRK had published regarding their experiences with the 70s and 80s. And we openly discussed that, that there were errors that were made, as Jim Frantti even alluded to, and we all have connection probably to personal, or people we knew well that maybe matters weren't handled properly and so forth.
It puzzles me that those matters are not left to rest. They seem to be renewed again in this time and a reevaluation of those times. I think that those that may have suffered under overshooting, under caretaking that became dry,
They died in faith. Those that made errors as ministers or board members or servants or others, they died in faith. They gained the victory. It just puzzles me why we're going back and reevaluating, was that done right? Was that done right? Should this minister have been relieved from his duties or not? I don't think there's benefit
It's almost like refighting, recreating the battles of the 70s and 80s, and I think the victory was won in Zion. God helped through those times. It's not that we can't discuss those or even learn from those errors or freely share experiences of that, but it feels to me like is there
Is there a forgiving mind and heart for those times? With regard to this question of confession, it's a very important matter to me because I have in my life experienced the air of confession becoming too important to me. I wasn't trying to do good works. I just wanted to believe and I wanted to
Be so careful about caring for matters of conscience that I went astray in it and begun to try to confess everything, every little thing, and remember when I go to the confessor, Father, everything that, and if I forgot something, then I would leave troubled and so forth. But the error that, or the wrong understanding that I had, I thank God that he helped me
In Zion, to care for those things, there was the right understanding in Zion, and I was helped, and I thank God for that. It's a very important topic. All of these doctrinal topics that we're talking about are important. Justification, confession, the ones we've talked about here, they're important.
But I lament that we're discussing them in this sense of somehow in a tense environment looking at who's going wrong in this or that. They're good topics to discuss if they're not discussed with some sort of agenda. And that's what I feel concerned about.
With regard to this matter of confession, I very much, I've referred many people to Juhani Uljas' writing on confession. I think that's one clear writing about confession that's been very helpful to me. In it, he talks about Luther's large catechism where Luther talks about a brief exhortation to confession.
And Luther there talks about the abuses of the Catholic Church, where confession became a work. And that's what Luther was battling against, that one merits forgiveness by confession. But Luther emphasized, as Uljas says and explains, the voluntary nature of confession.
Force or fear does not drive us to confession. We confess of our own will because we feel confession to be a gift given to us. It comforts, it encourages our consciences. According to Luther's understanding, absolution or forgiveness, that's my addition, already is confession.
Although it may not include any specific confession of sins, he emphasizes especially that the preaching of forgiveness and hearing it are the most important part of confession. And then regarding confession, the Smalcald Articles teach since absolution or the power of the keys which was instituted by Christ in the gospel
Is a consolation and help against sin and a bad conscience. Confession and absolution should by no means be allowed to fall into disuse in the church. But then in particular, what I thought to mention here is Luther,
Uljas quotes Psalms, and Jim Frantti has already mentioned this, that who can even know all of our sins and errors? And as Tom rightfully pointed out from Uljas' writing, we go to confession just as much a believer as we leave from confession. We are justified by faith. And as believers, we go into confession as believers.
And here the forgiveness or absolution preached from the confessor father. As Luther says, and I think it's so simple, the small catechism, I often go back to that, that I don't feel the need to go any further than what Luther said. That confession consists of two parts. The one is that we confess our sins.
The other is that we receive absolution or forgiveness from the confessor as from God himself by no means doubting but firmly believing that our sins are forgiven before God in heaven. So we receive forgiveness or absolution from the confessor Father himself
And I fear that these discussions lead us away from the simplicity of faith and the everyday endeavor. In our everyday endeavor, when we fall into sin, are we wondering, are we debating these doctrinal questions in our mind? Or when we're troubled by sin, we want to hear that I can believe that sin forgiven. And we, for that reason,
Confess so that we don't have to carry the burden and we can be relieved of those burdens and believe them forgiven through the gospel that's preached. So those are some scattered thoughts. It seems like I had something more but I've forgotten now. Bruce, you want to speak before I forget?
No, I agree with you, Keith. That's where that power of the gospel is, for helping us and easing those burdens or erasing those burdens. As far as the 80s, and this goes back to that discussion meeting you had, I personally don't know anyone that's carrying bitter feelings, harboring any feelings about the 80s. The concern was, in these concerns of our time,
And some of the discussion is, it reminds people of the 80s. And I think the 80s, there's nothing wrong with discussing, and we should learn from the 80s. And be free and open. We don't have to talk about, I totally agree with you. These guys have gone to rest as believers. It's the issues of what happened during the time, there's nothing wrong with discussing that. But I personally don't know of anyone that
That's bitter. And then the other thought I had on my mind is, outside of these doctrinal issues, are we getting both sides bright-eyed, just to say, to use that term, that we're trying to dig deeper into each other and finding fault?
Or can't we just accept each other as believers? I tell people, if I don't deny my faith, can you just hold me as a believer? I am just a wretched person, and I recognize that. And if I want to believe, I believe that no man can take away my faith and just accept me as a believer. Have we come to the point here that we start
Looking at one another and trying to find fault with one another. You know, our fruits will show that this, can't we hold each other as believers? And I personally think, Keith, and I told your brother Ray at MBMAC, I think you should come up here and visit with these brothers, one-on-one, everybody. If you have a concern with somebody, come up and visit one-on-one. Start there.
Let's just back up and start there. If you have a concern that we visit with each other. And I mean, I tell people, Jim, you, Randy, I've never visited with you guys in my life. And these meetings that we've had, I've come to kind of like you guys. You know, I don't harbor no hard feelings for any of you guys. And, you know,
Are we digging, trying to dig? Okay, something's there. I mean, I'm getting tired of the term, something's there. Well, what is there? You know? I mean, you talked about these issues. Them were the issues that we discussed, that we had difference in understanding on. And I feel this meeting, there is freedom. I didn't feel that in the other meetings. I feel people are opening
Their heart up and speaking, and that freedom is here. And that freedom has, in my opinion, been lacking in this state. And the love is broken. I asked somebody yesterday, how do we go about repairing the love? That's gotta be the first. So that's just some thoughts on my mind. Okay, at this point, we're gonna break for lunch.
And after we all get seated back, we'll try to resume the meeting as soon as possible for a time issue. It's already 1230. So there'll be... Yeah, I understand. Some people will be leaving. I don't know when, maybe in a couple hours or so, but there are some that are going to be leaving. So let's resume back as soon as we can after...
After the meal, there'll be two lines, so feel free to join them. Maybe we could sing the first verse of the meal song.
[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]
Couple more minutes, then we're going to start, so hurry along.
The clock is moving.
There is more pizza and subs and wraps, so help yourself if you want. We're going to start in two minutes.
Okay, why don't we gather around. We'll sing the second verse of the meal song. It's song 434. 434.
[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]
Okay, the floor is now open. Feel free to
Raise your hand after you collected your thoughts after the lunch. Sam, is there a mic down there? I've appreciated the openness and the discussion.
And one question that has been on my mind towards the end of it has been along this line. And especially, I guess, Al, your comment towards the end of it.
The statement to the effect that the justification by faith and all we have to do is believe in the merit works of Christ. And I agree with that. I guess the question that I have is where is the kingdom of God in the third article of the creed in that? It's almost left unstated and I don't know if it's
It's an assumption that we just assume that that's part and parcel of it. But my wife used to work with an individual who was going to the seminary and studying to be a priest. And she, in some of these discussions that we've had in God's kingdom then, she's commented or remarked after the fact how
These statements that all you have to do is believe on the merit works of Christ are the one and the same as this unbelieving coworker. And I think many of these churches, as Jon Bloomquist talked about growing up in the Catholic Church, or other churches, also teach the believing in the merit works of Christ. And I think,
This question of the kingdom of God, the office of the Holy Spirit, Paul writes in Ephesians 5th chapter when he's speaking of husband and wife and how these two shall be one flesh. He says, but now I speak concerning Christ and the church. And that we understand that Christ and the congregation, the kingdom of God, are inseparable. And that...
And I guess this question kind of then also comes of some of the criticism or mistrust of local boards or the LLC board or whoever that, do we believe that brothers have been called by the Holy Spirit in the congregation and that the Holy Spirit, God in the third person, is working in the congregation?
And that it's an active work. And I guess that was, you know, believing in God the Father and believing in God the Son, I think we're...
Together with many of the churches of the world, but then believing in God, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, et cetera, comes to that point where do we, are we all of the same mind that this is God's kingdom? Here God operates through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is in unity with God the Father and God the Son.
And God's spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God. And the Holy Spirit calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies. The Holy Spirit does not cause division in God's kingdom, but it calls and unites the believers together. I guess I didn't say that, but absolutely. I think it says in 1 John that
There are three that bear witness in heaven. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. I believe that. So, yes, it was unstated. But, of course, if you understand your justification, all the rest of that follows. So, yes, I did not state it, but I agree 100%.
George. Yeah, God's peace, I didn't get a chance to greet everybody by hand, but just a question, Bruce. I was there at the speakers and elders meeting, and you spoke there very passionately and emotionally, and you had a heavy concern in your heart,
And your statement began that living Christianity in North America is a mess and we need help. So maybe if you could expound on some of those matters that we're pressing on you. Yes, George, I was going to actually talk to you privately. I mean, so you can verify. You brought that message in front of your congregation, I believe, my statement. You were in the room and
My statement was not that the kingdom of God is a mess. I said, no, I didn't. I said, in Minnesota, we have a mess. And so if you misquoted me in front of your whole congregation, that's probably a matter you should take care of with your congregation. And I still believe. Is there a difference, really?
Bruce Johnson, I have to say that in Cokato and in God's kingdom here in North America, I'm free before the children of God and before God. And if somebody has, and there have been a lot of accusations pointed at me, and specifically even from our visit with my dear brother, Philip Alajoki. And I know I didn't mention your name before the congregation,
But I have spoken before the congregation many times after services, not just when I've served, but when other brothers have served, because I have felt that it's very important that the congregation is aware of what the situation is in North American Zion. And that's one of the things I fear of Wolf Lake, how it appears to me, and from some of those whom I visited from Wolf Lake,
That there's been lacking of that to let the congregation know of the concerns and issues in God's kingdom in North America. I think Wolf Lake is probably one of the only congregations that hasn't had that presentation of the concerns and the joys of living Christianity in North America. And I believe at our last meeting with Wolf Lake, there were several of the board members who requested that
Wolf Lake would do this to their congregation before we would meet again. And I don't know if you've done that or not, but I hope and pray that you would do it. Tom. I took it as a raise of the hand.
I think there's some assumptions there, George, that we haven't discussed with our congregation. We had a congregation evening last night, particularly a free evening to discuss all the concerns. I think the last few Sundays, Roger has kept a speech in front of the congregation. And I don't know if your son that's married to a Makela, he had been there. And I think Roger, at length, kind of went through what's been happening, what are the issues that are being discussed.
Leaving an open forum for discussion. So I just want to say that these issues, I mean, at times you don't want to keep going to the congregation every day, or sorry, every Sunday, but I do believe we have had a number of congregational meetings to address the current concerns, ask for the congregation's support. A dear sister spoke last night about how when Darwin and Phil have been disinvited
It really hurts. It really hurts her deeply that our two servant brothers who are in the care and love of our congregation have been being disinvited. And she feels that it's an action that's against our entire congregation. And I really, you know, she feels it was her heartfelt speech last night that she feels that we're being pushed out of the kingdom of God.
And we don't want to go anywhere. We know the kingdom is here. So if anyone's had that idea or thought, but I don't know, but say we turn to our Lord Jesus Christ who spoke a message of grace and forgiveness and he often stood in the multitudes of people and
There were many there that didn't believe or were there to accuse him of things, but yet there were many that wanted to believe and hear his words. Some followed him for his miracles. But we know this is God's kingdom and the spirit resides within. So I hope that we don't, any of us or us feel that
We would become cold to anybody, or these disinvites seem troubling. I mean, I grew up hearing about the Torola heresy, and the main heir there was, I know Jim brought up some situations in Finland, but it's interesting, Elmer Alajoki was called to marry Priscilla Ylitalo up in the Iron Range. He received a call that he was not allowed to do that.
And I don't know, I think it was... So right before the heresy, he was disinvited from doing a wedding. So Priscilla, I don't know, maybe someone knows who married them, but that eventually led seeds to a heresy where the all of Finland was disinvited. And that disinvitation letter, if you've read it, it wasn't written in a nasty way necessarily. It was just that we have concerns and during this time. And so God's word can also be used in the wrong way.
But I just want to just encourage everyone to believe that sins are forgiven. Jesus, he loves us all. Who's next?
Curt. I guess I'm not sure what I'm going to say here, but I want to think that there's no issues. That's what I want to think.
But yet, in my personal conversations with others, it leads me to think that there are differences. There's two ways here. And I'm not so skilled to point out the differences, but for instance, speaking with one brother, we've had many discussions about matters, and we haven't been able to come to
The same understanding on matters, particularly how we care for our conscience and remain as God's children. In particular, when I've just expressed that, how I believe. I believe in God's grace. For some reason, I fall in favor with God. I want to remain.
But I fight this battle against sin, which we all know. And when I'm wounded on this journey of faith, sin has wounded my conscience, I feel the need to express what I've done and ask for forgiveness. And God has always forgiven me through the gospel. But when I've had this kind of a conversation with this brother, he says, oh, so you can do something for your salvation.
It makes me troubled. I've never thought that I'm doing something for salvation. I'm using those things that God gave me to remain in faith. And the same brother, in our conversation, I've been able to be pointed with my questions. I've asked him, you've been in Cokato, you've been there when I've served, you've been there when other brothers have served.
Did your spirit agree? And he says, no, not really. I asked him, you were at summer services in Seattle. Did your spirit agree to the services kept there in Seattle at summer services? He says, no, not really. A couple of them. Not all. When it is that way, there's really some real issues that we have going on.
And so, but this brother then also says, but my spirit agrees with this brother, this brother, this brother, and this brother, but not with me. It makes me concerned. It makes me very concerned. Well, where am I? Where am I? And so, I've wanted to be where these discussions have taken place, that where is, where am I? Does my spirit agree
Or am I gone another way? Where am I today? And so I've been comforted to hear and be in these meetings, even though I haven't taken turns to speak in many of them, that yes, I do believe the same way. My spirit says amen, I believe. And so even now, coming here, I was doubt-ridden, I'll have to say.
I thought, what's going to be revealed about me? Maybe I'm the problem. And I know I have many faults and failures. But even now, I want to ask that, can I believe all my sins until it's forgiven? It feels like
As we have discussed, forgiveness, that we haven't gotten down to the crux of the matter in discussions I've had with numerous people that we're kind of beating around the bush here and with numerous individuals that I've discussed it with that
Whether current or former members of Cokato and or Wolf Lake, that we've agreed on everything other than the topic of forgiveness. And it's been left at that, that they see it as my past sins, my current sins, and my future sins are all forgiven. And it has been discussed here already.
That the gospel is just reassurance. So trying to get them to explain themselves, they've gone on with, or I've asked them then, after they have very bluntly stated their position, that I've asked them, well, if your sins are always forgiven, tell the day you die, wherein
Or why did Jesus give us the gospel? Why did he give us the keys to the kingdom? And what's troubling is these individuals very much align themselves with Wolf Lake. And so the thought has to come to the mind that what are the other congregation members in Wolf Lake, what are they hearing? If this is what the three that I've spoken to are receiving,
From the sermons in Wolf Lake, what is the rest of the congregation, why are they receiving or how are they receiving this message that their sins are always forgiven and that the gospel is just reassurance? And I'm a simple guy, I'm a simple carpenter. If the gospel was only reassurance and I thought my sins were always forgiven,
I tell you, it wouldn't take long and I would never have to hear the gospel again. And hearing this from multiple individuals, it just makes me wonder, what are they hearing? What are they hearing different than we hear in Cokato? Than we hear in other congregations?
And venturing off in another direction, my wife and I got married 18 and a half years ago in Wolf Lake. And it wasn't long after that that I started noticing the tension. I didn't know what it was. And I've heard multiple times since then
That of the broken love between Menahga and Wolf Lake, as I'm sure a lot of you have in prior meetings in the last year or two, that it does exist. And even since August, I've had multiple members mention that in a roundabout way,
It's nice, or after Phil was disinvited from Cokato, there have been multiple comments that it's to the point of saying thank you, the fact that that decision was made, and it's about time, and that it has been developing, or it has been there for a couple decades.
And so yeah, that broken love has been there. And did they mean from the 70s and 80s? I don't know. I was just a little kid at that time. But that broken love is there. And what will it take to heal that? Maybe some of the locals would have some comments to that effect. But yes, it would be very nice to see that love healed.
We don't get up here as much as we used to. Our family life is plenty busy just like everybody else's. But even when we do make it up here, there's very little traffic going back and forth between Menahga and Wolf Lake.
And I can still feel it to this day. And maybe that's just something Menahga-Wolf Lake can get together, have congregational meetings or congregational evenings, whatever it takes. But yeah, it would be very nice to see that love healed, very much so. I've got friends and relatives in Wolf Lake. Granted, I haven't been out there for quite some time,
But yeah, the topic of forgiveness is very concerning when there are those that expressly say, all my sins are already forgiven. Where is that going to lead you? Where is that going to lead your children? And for how many generations? How long did it take before children start leaving God's kingdom? That's very concerning.
I think most of us have experienced when we have talked about these issues with someone that either has a concern or thinks differently one way or another, that we come away from that conversation
Somewhat agreeing or agreeing for the most part, or that I think we agree, depending on the issue, one way or another, we might be conflicted or confused on certain points in that discussion. And I don't know if the matter of forgiveness is a byproduct of something else, something underlying,
Or if the forgiveness issue is the core problem and everything is, all these other items are stemming from that. I don't know what the issues are and I can't relate to or I can't put my finger on or my thoughts onto what bothers me the most.
But as of late, just like Evan said, this matter of forgiveness is something that I can, and I think we all can relate to to a certain degree. When we speak to those of a different mind or if we hear sermons that are somehow different, it registers
In me, my spirit somehow doesn't quite answer when the message of forgiveness is not being emphasized or is emphasized differently than what I have heard in my almost 50 years of life.
I have always heard how important it is and less emphasis on that we just need to believe that our sins are forgiven and the emphasis that Christ has done the work. We can never minimize that Christ has done the work. We understand that through faith. But I believe that God also knows that all of us here, every single one,
And I believe throughout the world, every believer, we cannot continually believe, continue to just believe that our sins are forgiven and that would lead us closer to God. I think God has given us the forgiveness of sins for a reason. That is, in my life of faith, and perhaps yours too, it is the single greatest
The source of strength in my life of faith is to strengthen my faith through the power of forgiveness. And when that is being minimized or not emphasized, that's when I feel that this sounds a little bit different. And it is not the preaching itself that I hear, it's not wrong per se,
It's just a little bit different from what I'm used to. So what is it in me that registers? I do believe that it's the Spirit of God that is teaching and reminding me that this is not, it's not a good road. It's not a, at the end of the day, it's a dangerous path for me
Because my faith is so weak that I can't continually believe that my sins are forgiven. I need to hear very personally that my sins are forgiven. And that is what makes me uneasy and it troubles me. But I also want to hear that gospel. Can I believe my sins forgiven?
Bruce. This is in response to Evan about this something between Menahga and Wolf Lake. There might be some issues with certain individuals. I was visiting with Dave Keranen over the break
We had our area-wide board meeting up here this spring, this last spring. I think most of you from Menahga were there. And we discussed a lot of these issues. We said amen. We forgave each other at the end of the meeting. And I told people that it's one of the most precious meetings I've been in in the last four years.
And so I don't see this conflict between Menahga and Wolf Lake. I mean, I've only been up here for the last four years, although we have a camp that we've had for 28 years, so we have been coming up here. But like I said, there could be individuals that have issues with each other, and whatever it might be, that's for them to take care of with each other.
But as far as our boards, I thought, and you, any guys that were at the meeting can correct me, I thought it was amen, and we forgave each other, blessed each other, and it was precious. George. Yeah, George, from Cokato.
The only thing I can say, my dear brothers, and you are all my dear brothers in faith, is that God knows our hearts. We don't know one another's hearts. All we see are the fruits that come from one. And I've said this many times, I have always loved Wolf Lake. I have always felt very welcome in Wolf Lake.
I have always enjoyed my time in Wolf Lake. I have many dear brothers in faith and sisters in Wolf Lake. But what's happened in the past months hasn't been very, hasn't felt very good. I've been hearing from people who have visited with, so it's secondhand.
But they have no reason to lie to me or to try to mislead me. And what I'm hearing is there's much bitterness pointed directly at me. And I told one dear brother that I need to go to Wolf Lake and visit with the brothers there. And this brother has been to Wolf Lake many times. And there was a pause in our phone conversation, and he told me,
He says, George, I wouldn't go to Wolf Lake now. There is such bitterness toward you. Now, if that's true or not, I don't know. But I have personally felt much bitterness, many accusations from dear brothers and sisters, not just in Minnesota, from elsewhere. And they've heard rumors of our visit that Phil, my dear brother Phil Alajoki and I had.
And what they heard was not the truth, and I guess that's the very nature. Rumors get very skewed and become outright lies. But this I say, you don't have to dig very deep to find fault and sin in me. You don't. But I have enjoyed God's kingdom so much, and it's so beautiful,
Because when we look at our brethren in God's kingdom, we don't see sinners. We see beautiful angels that God has placed here to help me get to heaven. But Satan doesn't like that. He wants to twist our heart. And so then we no longer see the beauty of God's kingdom. There is no trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit in God's kingdom. And we become,
Enlightened by our own understanding and our own reading and our own deep study, and that's a danger. Wisdom of Solomon reminds us that too much study becomes a weariness. But I've been accused of saying that you can't read the Bible. And it's like, I have always encouraged to read and study the Holy Scriptures, to read the writings of the believers, because it
It strengthens and it helps our faith. And yet, every one of us is dependent upon the guidance of the living Holy Spirit in God's kingdom. Alone, we will never get anywhere. I happen to run into this one little sentence that the Apostle Paul asked the believers in Galatia.
Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? When I go serve God's kingdom, I cannot go to that place without hearing personally the forgiveness of my sins and my many, many doubts that I personally carry. I live of the gospel. I need the gospel every day. And if I wouldn't have had this gospel,
I would be so far in the woods that my head would be spinning. And yet, yet this afternoon I say, my dear brothers and sisters, and I don't have anything personal against any one of you dear brothers in Wolf Lake. That's why I came to visit Philip Alajoki.
Because I had concern and love for his undying soul, and I tried to encourage him to wake up that Wolf Lake needs to hear the clear message of the Holy Spirit, the message of God. And yet, here before you, all there is here is a wretch, a sinner, heavy, heavy doubts.
And I need that. Can I believe all my sins and shortcomings and doubts forgiven? And I have nothing but love for you, Bruce, and for every one of the brothers in Wolf Lake. Nothing. I have no bitterness in my heart. Not any bitterness. But I have loving concern. You're right in that way.
Something is, something is a mess. And yet, all the accusations that have been personally pointed to me, and I tell you, they're as long as my arm. I've brought to our board, I've openly brought to our congregation, I spoke to the brothers on the LLC board, and they've reassured me, dear brother, you're in the love of the kingdom. And that's all I need to know, that I am in the love of the kingdom.
And I ask you, dear brothers, are you? Where are you? Has Satan sown a seed of distrust toward the guidance of the Holy Spirit in God's kingdom? There's some reason why there's concern in God's kingdom.
It's the lambs in Cokato. It's the lambs in Brainerd. It's the lambs that are concerned of the message that they're hearing. Pray to God. Pray to God that He would open this unto you. Salvation is dependent upon it. It's not a little matter.
And as the brother from Minneapolis recently, when he was in Cokato, he told me, not a, well, I don't know, maybe, no, he's not a board member even, just, he said at the last heresy, there was a Finland brother, I don't know who it was, he didn't mention, who said that that heresy was very easy to detect.
Very evident. The children of God were living in outright sin, in leniency. But he prophesied this. And these aren't my words, I'm just relating to what the brother said. He prophesied this. He said the next heresy that will come will be very deceitful. It will be like a spider web. It will be so hard to differentiate. It will be so close.
And I think that's where we're traveling right now. Eric. I've also enjoyed the openness of this meeting and I'm thankful for it. Many different thoughts have gone through my mind and I don't know what God will allow now at this point.
I would first want to start with this thought of the kingdom of God and the beauty of God's kingdom and also the power that God has given to use in his kingdom. I've had many visits over the course of time with unbelieving friends, workmates, and when we talk about how I believe, we can believe very similarly on
Many, many points of doctrine and understanding, but we always separated when we got to the point where we talked about the forgiveness of sins. How God has entrusted to his kingdom and to you and I as his children the power to forgive sins. In the world, in the worldly righteous, forgiveness is found in many different ways.
In God's kingdom, it's been the hallmark of God's kingdom where we've been, through the power of the Holy Spirit, able to preach that gospel of forgiveness and it's freed both those in the world from unbelief and also weak and faulty travelers that their sins are forgiven in the name and precious blood of Jesus. To me, the gospel has been a source of power and strength
And I believe that the gospel does wash away sin. That's how I believe. I can't believe any differently. That's how I've experienced it in my life. I'm not such a deep theologian where I can discuss these things in the depth that they are, but only from life's experiences I know how important the gospel has been. When there's been sin and burden, I've sought, with God's help,
Those loving escorts where I can speak of those matters that are burdened and when I have been able to hear the preached word, sins are forgiven in the name and precious blood of Jesus, a peace returns. This is how I have lived and I want to continue to live. And if someone tells me I have to believe somehow other than that, I can't do it. I guess I'll go to my grave
As a weak one, I don't have enough faith to believe and to trust that all of my sins are truly forgiven. But I need that reassurance. I think of my own father now as he's nearing the end of his life. What's needed for him is the gospel. He's lived by that gospel. The forgiveness of sins has carried him.
And if we start to lose sight of the beauty and the blessing that this brings into God's kingdom, I think we've lost everything. We can debate, discuss theology in depth, but theology and understanding will never allow us to make it to heaven only by faith. In addition to that then, I've thought,
Of these issues that we're facing and the difficulties that there are, I would hope and I would wish and I would so want to say that we all believe the same. But I found it's not the case. We've heard today that by fruits are we known. And the fruits of the difficulties that we face now
Recent years has been that families are divided. Some have had to take a different group of friends because understanding and spirit is different. I've seen where families have had to agree not to visit and discuss matters of faith because there's differences and those differences have caused strife in their homes and families.
So evidence of the turmoil is there. And as George just mentioned, I've thought of that many, many times, of how cunning and deceitful the enemy has been. And the love has been broken, there's no question. Some have begged that love would be restored, and it's my hope as well. But love is a fruit, it's a byproduct,
You can't manufacture love, but love comes through the unity and love of the Spirit. If this love is lacking, there's a reason. There were those and have been those who have confessed or repented of broken love. It means nothing. There's a reason why love is broken. There's a difference of
Understanding, a difference of doctrine, or a different spirit. And as confusing as these things become, even as I went to lunch today, it just becomes so confusing when you go round and round the block, and some say there's no problems, others say there's problems. It's evident, brothers, that there are differences. There are disagreements. And I've pondered that what has caused this?
Is it that has done this that I can only resolve that the enemy of souls has been very active? And he's the one that's done this. He's sowed his seeds of discontent and unbelief and wrong watchings, whatever the case is, wrong understandings into the hearts of God's children. I remember at the minister's teleconference when this question about
Different spirit, different understanding, different doctrine came. One brother said that at the time of heresy. I got to go to a wedding at 6 o'clock in Minneapolis, but I enjoyed the discussion. And I ask even now that can I hear that gospel for my own soul? And my home is always welcome.
I talked to Jon Bloomquist. We agreed that we'll get together on a one-on-one or two-people basis. For me, for myself, it's easier to have a dialogue in a smaller group like that, so I would welcome any of you that would be willing to discuss any issues. That's fine. My second request is I'm going to the wedding tonight, and I don't really want to come back.
So is there anybody here from Menahga that would be willing to serve in Wolf Lake tomorrow? Otherwise, I will come back. Maybe somebody can text me if the possibility is open. It's fine. I know I realized that recently Mark was added as a speaker here in Menahga. So I think you're speaking tomorrow, is it? Tomorrow is the installation.
Yeah, so I'm sure a lot of you would prefer to be here, but at any rate, I think you all know my cell number, so you could text me. If it's a possibility, otherwise I'll come back. That's fine, it'll just be a late night. Let's peace.
No, and that's okay. But my thoughts and many, many prayers have been that would God somehow reveal what the depth of these issues are? If they're different understandings, those things are easily resolved. In my life, different understandings are easy to come to common understanding on when there's openness and freedom. But when there's a different
Spirit working or different emphasis, a different goal, then these things become impossible. And that's what it's felt like for me the last years. And I speak personally of my own psalm. Even coming here today, I feel very tired, weary of these battles that we're facing, and worried mostly that I'll end up drying up
Losing sight also of the beauty of God's kingdom. Brothers, many temptations and faults, shortcomings. Can I also hear the gospel? Dave Keranen. Let's see if I can gather my thoughts, but I just...
I mean, maybe, obviously, I think like John kind of stated in his opening remarks that maybe what kind of brought this particular meeting on is, you know, what's on the front of our minds at the time of this meeting, when this meeting was visited about and scheduled and was this issue around speakers, sharing speakers and scheduling
But like he stated, that's just maybe a byproduct of the issues and the questions that have troubled God's kingdom. I understand very little, like I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way. But myself, I'm left with the question here recently.
Here in Menahga, our brother, dear brother Eugene was, we've had our concerns with him and we had visited with him. He hasn't, based on visits and actions, he hadn't been free in Menahga or with our board and speakers and he had requested to no longer to be relieved of his speaking duties
So, just kind of pertaining to this issue or this question regarding speakers, I personally haven't visited with, heard this from Eugene, but apparently he has spoken or conveyed the message that, well, he believes the way that Phil does or
This speaker, that speaker. So not necessarily saying that he believes the way the brothers in Menahga on the board or the speakers in Menahga or that, no, I don't know what, how, if he, on what particular issue or question that he feels that,
The other speakers or some of us or others believe is inaccurate or incorrect. So I think that's kind of the question that comes before us on the board when we think about this. Well, I don't know. I don't know what the question is. And I think that's why we're here today. We're trying. It seems like maybe there's some questions around the forgiveness question.
I don't know if it's completely revealed yet. Those are just some of my thoughts that I'm left with. I think Bruce's earlier comments are accurate. We meet annually with Northern Minnesota board and speakers. We visited last, I think it was, if I remember right, it was in March or April.
When we met and we had a really nice meeting. We had that nice meeting last spring, but then we still have this, we come across this issue with our brother Eugene, so we wrestle with this and we ask ourselves, well, why? What is it?
Why isn't there this freedom? I mean, I realize, I mean, if one wants to, chooses to attend services in Wolf Lake, that should be, I mean, there should, we have the freedom to do that, but, or if we want to come to Menahga or, that's, why is there, why is there concern if, with, you know, by,
Picking sides, so to speak. So, I don't know. I'm just, like I said, I understand so little, but those are just some of my thoughts. Steve Haataja from Menahga. I guess I have a difficult time articulating my thoughts when they're so mumbled up, jumbled up.
I would ask in the beginning, could I believe my sins and doubts forgiven? I guess it's been mentioned or the question has come up that is there still some bitterness that would go all the way back to those caretaking meetings from the 70s and 80s.
And I guess first of all I would want to mention that I was a Wolf Lake member for most of my life and certainly I still hold Wolf Lake as very dear and close to my heart and you brothers from there also. And I know probably, I don't know if there's any of the Wolf Lake board members and speakers that were here today that are old enough to really
Remember a lot about those meetings themselves. I was myself a pretty young man at that time. And we had many, many meetings. I wouldn't even begin to guess. And they were, to me, a very confusing time. And it was a huge relief.
When it seemed like they finally came to a conclusion. As we've heard, there were faults, there was dryness, overshooting by those who
We're attempting to do the caretaking. We're, for the most part, conducting those, chairing those meetings, those discussions. But in the end, by the grace of God, they were able to see where they had been at fault. And they were given strength and humility
To ask for forgiveness for those things. And the gospel was preached. We know the enemy doesn't want to allow those things to be buried, but would rather remind us again and again. Dig those things up.
And sometimes I wonder that if there is this thought in some of those individuals that witnessed all those meetings,
That when those people who had fallen into dryness in these things made it so difficult for one that would ask for forgiveness, that perhaps they were questioned of their sincerity
So then when those caretakers were able to realize their faults and they desired to ask for forgiveness, I wonder, were there some who felt that that's too simple, that's too easy? You have made it so difficult for others.
That it shouldn't be that easy for you to simply forgive and forget, or to have forgiven and forget. When we sometimes hear of that mistrust that still remains toward that same, though not comprised of the same individuals, but still that same body of
People that were there dried up in those care takings. I just pose it as a question. And then when we think of this matter of forgiveness, on the flip side, on the part of one who is preaching
When one is asked, and when we have heard the question that could there ever be a time when we wouldn't preach, what does forgiveness mean from the side of the one that is preaching that gospel? Is it simply forgiveness by the lips or is it from the heart?
We know that God has forgiven those things and does not remember them any longer. But we know the enemy would always want us to dig those up again and again and cause strife. And then was a few turns ago mentioned about the
Discussions that many congregations have had, and I think Tom mentioned that Wolf Lake has also had those same discussions around the concerns of our time that have been troubling us in the last few years. I guess I would return to, I think it was Keith who mentioned
From the minister's camp a couple years ago, or however many years ago it is now, how there was such joy at the end of that camp when Darwin and Phil both desired to put their matters away, regretted the confusion that had been caused
And how Keith then asked the question that what happened after that or something like that. And I've always understood that Darwin and Phil desired to take care of those matters with the Wolf Lake congregation. But the word that
Has come back, and I haven't heard it firsthand, I guess, but was that the message to them? Was that, yes, you can believe your sins forgiven, but basically that you haven't done anything wrong? And I guess if I were in that position, where I would have felt that there were matters that I had to take care of
And then if I went to my home congregation and asked to be forgiven, and I was told that you didn't do anything wrong, I'd be in a difficult place. I would have heavy doubts about those matters that I had felt that I needed to care for.
And then around the continuing I guess on that vein that of the discussions in many of the congregations and Wolf Lake evidently having had some. I guess we can't deny though that as these last year's discussions have taken place that there have been differences between many that are here and
At least a number of those on the Wolf Lake board. And so I guess the question comes regarding those discussions that have taken place in Wolf Lake. That has it been a one-sided discussion? How have these issues been presented?
And obviously, those who have been present at these discussions have their own viewpoints. And so I'm not, I'm questioning, I guess, what message has the congregation in general received around these issues? I guess I'll stop at that.
Randy Haapala. Like others have said, I don't know where my jumbled thoughts will even take me.
I have had personally discussions with some. And when I say some, those that certainly believe differently than I do. These some that I speak of
Are ones that will say that the law is being preached in Cokato and peace and harmony is in Wolf Lake. I ask, why does it feel
Like the law is being preached. Is it because there's rebuke of sin? God's word is a word of truth and it is a word of grace. I had one tell me
But there is never ever a time when you have unforgiven sin before God. We visited, I believe for three and a half hours that night. We were at my cabin.
The night was getting late. I asked this one, so how would one lose living faith? Do you know what his answer was? Unforgiven sin. So I said, so I asked him, I said, so you've been telling me all night
We would never have unforgiven sin before God. When one loses faith, it's because of unforgiven sin. It doesn't add up. It's a troubling time.
This kind of understanding and belief and whatever it is, if we believe that our sins are always forgiven, the past, the future, whatever, where does this lead us? I know where it leads me.
Because I have found great comfort in that gospel. But with this kind of belief, it would lead me to permissiveness of sin and leniency. When I was a youth growing up,
Sin weighed me down. Oh, I tried to believe that sin forgiven, sitting in the service bench. It's like a stone in my shoe.
But when God granted me strength to go and talk about that matter with my mom or dad, they preached the gospel to me and that sin was gone. No longer was that stone in my shoe.
Dear brothers, this is the third portion of the Godhead. This is why Jesus left his spirit here, to continue that work, to forgive sins. This is how I believe. Can I hear that gospel? Can I have all my sins and doubts forgiven?
May God help us. Who's next?
So I do have one question. Are there those here that feel like we never have unforgiven sin before God?
Okay, is there ever a time when we have unforgiven sin before God? The answer is absolutely. If we don't believe it forgiven, it's before God. It's possible I should go a little further and turn to John chapter 9, the Gospel of John. I think it's in the last verses.
Starting on 39, Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see, and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin.
But now ye say we see, therefore your sin remaineth. Evan. First, I would like to ask that can I hear the gospel as well from my many sins and doubts.
Al, your last comment troubled me. Maybe it's just because I'm a little bit slow and you could expand on it. But when you say, if we don't, we have unforgiven sin on our conscience before God if we don't believe it forgiven. But explain that to a simple guy. You don't put it as,
You have not had your matters taken care of with the gospel. Are you saying you personally don't believe your sins forgiven or... This isn't coming out right. But as you said it, you left me a little more confused than prior to what you said.
Just as you simply put it in your one sentence, if you didn't believe all your sins had been forgiven, it just leaves a little bit of a jumbled mess in my brain that would cause me anyways to think, as has been discussed about the wrong understanding of forgiveness,
That all my sins are always forgiven. Maybe I confused everybody. As you stated it, can you expand on it? I can try.
I don't really think I could say it more simply than I did. We're justified by faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. In other words, he believed the word. When he put all of his trust in what God said, in the word being Christ, right? When he put all of his trust
Complete trust. He turned himself completely to God and said, yes, I believe you, God. He was counted righteous. No sin. It truly is that simple. The simplicity of faith is exactly that, extremely simple.
You know, how long do you guys want to talk about this? I'll go on forever. We could go to the third chapter of Genesis and study this Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve lost their faith. They turned away from God and believed Satan. He said, surely you won't die. And yet, they did, didn't they? We received
A corruptible portion in that moment. They were acceptable to God before they ate of that fruit. Well, actually, the moment they turned away from God. Originally, when Satan spoke to them, he said... I'm going to turn there. Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made, and he said unto the woman,
Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden. And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. They believed God. She quoted him. She said, We'll die. We can't do it.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise. And she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
They turned 180 degrees from what she had said a moment before. And she said, yes, Satan, you're correct. We'll learn. We'll have knowledge of good and evil. It's good to eat. And they took that fruit and they ate. So to put this very simply, they called God a liar. They said, well, Satan is correct. God is a liar. The fruit is good to eat. But God doesn't lie.
They died, and every one of us dies on account of it. We all receive this in here, a corruptible portion which has to die because of God's promise here. He said, if you eat of that tree, you'll die. But he gave us a way out, didn't he? We can live spiritually, he said. Believe. And in the 15th verse, he said, I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed. It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. That was for calling
Or the prophecy, his promise, that Christ would come to bruise the head of the serpent. And it happened, exactly as God said. Now what also took place is that when we move to verse 20, Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Why did he say that? She's the mother of all living.
Because of the promise. He believed the promise that Eve would have the seed, her child, would renew them. And in believing that, he called her the mother of all living. And unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins and clothe them.
When Adam believed God, again, he turned back. He had believed Satan. He had gone 180 degrees out. He turned back to God and believed this promise that they would receive a savior through Eve. And at that moment, God covered him with skins, animal skins. It tells us in Hebrews that there's no forgiveness without shedding of blood. That's why those are animal skins there.
And in that, we see that this robe of righteousness that we spoke of, God no longer saw their sin. He covered them, but they were naked before that. This is what happened. In believing the word of God, they were saved. The sins are no longer counted. He no longer saw them. When God no longer sees them, we no longer see them. And it's only by faith. You don't get to do anything to see that.
It's only, you have to trust what God said, not what I said or anybody else. And this is the word we preach to each other, this word of reconciliation, we offer it again and again. Believe all sins forgiven, in Jesus' name and blood. That's what we're telling you. God actually sent the Savior, whose name was Christ. And in this, we are saved. Not in the asking for the gospel, not even in the hearing of it, but in the believing of it.
This is where our faith is. Well, actually, faith, if we break the word down, is believing, is it not? Anyway, if you have more questions, I guess I'll go back to it, but right there I'll end. Jim. Yeah, let's see if I can remember my thoughts. My first thought was the same as Evan's. I didn't understand Al's answer.
To Randy's question, if somebody asked me how I receive forgiveness of my sins, I'd have to say when I can hear the proclamation of the gospel from God's kingdom and believe it. Without that proclamation, I can't say my faith is such that I sin and simply believe it forgiven.
It seems like the proclamation of the gospel is needed. And that's why Paul writes to the Romans, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Without the hearing of the gospel, how do we find the way to believe our sins forgiven? So that would be my answer to that question. And I'm still unclear if that's how Al believes or not.
But a couple of other thoughts I'd like to... No, I'd like to share a couple other things while I'm going. There's been this question that's come up here that's kind of surprised me about justification. It's the first time I've heard that there's some thought that maybe there's different views on how a person is justified. Personally, I haven't talked to anybody in recent years who would say anything other than,
That we are justified by grace, by faith, and through the merits of Christ. I haven't heard any other way of being justified taught in God's kingdom. So I'm kind of puzzled, why is this question of justification here? Is there some thought that some have been teaching a different way to be justified?
And that leads to my other question, and that is, we have heard this kind of statement, and in fact, Randy asked the question about this, and I had the question too, because we have heard this said that there are those
Speaker brothers in North America, and there are those on the LLC board who are law-minded. And I have to say, dear brothers, I haven't experienced that at all. And so my question is, are there those, is there anybody here, are there those here who feel that there is a law-mindedness amongst some of the speakers or amongst
LLC board members or amongst local board members, if you feel that way, it would be important to hear that because I haven't experienced it, but I have heard the statement made, and it's troubling. I mean, the fact is we know we have to watch on both sides, law-mindedness and leniency.
The enemy, as we often say, he doesn't care which ditch we fall into as long as we fall. And we have to watch on both sides. But I have not experienced that kind of thought of law-mindedness. And if you don't mind one final thought, you know, there's been this expressed here that it would be so good to be able to leave here without any kind of broken love,
You know what the Bible says that causes the love to wax cold is because iniquity abounds. It's only sin that breaks the love between the believers. And so if we feel broken love, the cause must be sin. And as Eric said earlier, these aren't
We're not dealing here with personality clashes or just because some of us are harder to love than others. I mean, I even like this guy across from me over there. And, you know, it's not that that causes broken love. And like Eric mentioned, I too have had many visits with fellow believers who are troubled because their family is divided.
They have family members who don't believe the same way. Some can't even visit with each other because they find that they're not believing the same way and they're not even able to discuss things. There's obviously some issues and reasons for concern here.
But I would really like to hear if there are those who would feel that there is law-mindedness on the part of the LLC board or some of the speaker brothers in North America. Curt Savela. I've had a lot of thoughts as I've sat here listening today. And I have to say that I agree with Evan that I was really confused after your answer.
You had mentioned all we do is believe, and that Adam and Eve or whoever they all believed. They believed in the promise of the Savior, and they also believed and did those sacrifices that they were told to do, which them sacrifices symbolized
The blood of Christ. So all these animals, the doves and the sheep and whatever that were sacrificed symbolize that blood of Christ. So just to say that all you need to do is believe is not correct. We have to hear that gospel, that gospel message. If we don't have the gospel message, then we have nothing. I had some thoughts earlier. I didn't get them out.
I was too timid to get them out earlier, because I thought that I am the poorest and the weakest one here. What do I know? Right now, I'd love to hear that gospel. Can I have my many sins and doubts forgiven? There was talk earlier about when Darwin and Phil, or Phil or whoever was disinvited to Cokato.
This came from one of the meetings before, and I'm not sure it was, where one of the brothers or both of them had says, well, we're of a different mind. And to this day, I haven't heard, well, what is that different mind? What do you believe differently or what are you interpreting differently? And that's what I'm here today to find out. Unfortunately, Phil and Darwin have left now.
So we won't be able to get that answer. But I know our dear brother Eugene, when we discussed with him issues, when a few of the brothers went, he had mentioned, well, I believe like Darwin and Phil. Well, I don't know how they believe, so I'm not sure. So we haven't had a clear answer there. This forgiveness issue, going back to that again, is we need to hear the gospel.
And without that gospel, we can't make it to heaven. Roger. Yeah, there's been many questions, perhaps, that have been asked. As speaking turns go by, you kind of forget what they are and you don't
Sometimes in a smaller group, it's easier to just blurt out or interject right when the matter is hot, so to speak. But I'll try to go back from memory just a little bit. Don had asked a question, I believe,
In regards to some outward matter that, for example, was there some decision made by the board at Wolf Lake not to attend the meeting prior that was here? And the answer to that is no. It's just simple as that. I believe it was perhaps Steve asked the question something along these lines of bitterness over the 80s, and I would concur with Bruce that
On our part, and I can speak for myself, that there is, and this question is not certainly one that I haven't heard before. And I have answered then and even now the same that in my heart is held no bitterness towards those principle players, if you will, for lack of a better term, back in that time.
Having said that, then, from time to time, a person can't help but wonder a little bit when, for example, on the forgiveness question, there seemed to be an emphasis on leaving this door open that is there time, should there, and it's kind of been a moving target in a sense that some folks have said that, well, if you preach the gospel to someone, let's say a heretic, and it wasn't
Determined whether they were asking of heresy or some other matter that you could commit spiritual fornication. I don't think that that is possible. I think we can and should freely preach forgiveness of sins to whomever asks us.
I think the danger is that we can end up in a position that has happened before in history of the kingdom of God that people have begun to examine the hearts of those that ask. And Bible gives us no permission for such. And the dangers of that pathway are real and have led in the past
A stray from the truth that people have begun to examine a person's penitence. And I'm not saying that these are things that are happening today, but there's that danger. The other thing about the 80s, which is pretty clear to almost everyone, that there's been, in American Zion, a real reluctance to open and freely talk about those matters. And I've often wondered why that is.
And I am not going to try to speculate. I don't know the answer to that. Keith alluded to it, I believe, earlier a little bit that some of that, correct me if I'm wrong, Keith, that you related of the 2011 meeting, was it?
I wasn't actually there. I don't recall for sure. It's already many years ago. But over the course of these years, there have been some individuals that I have spoken with who have made statements along these lines that, for example, during that difficult time, there were many instances where someone may have asked for the gospel and it was not preached.
I have alluded to this type of thinking that in some circumstances that would have been okay. And my heart and conscience cannot go along with that. Al has spoken a great deal and some others as to the justification question and so forth. I will say simply this, that we can all of us believe
That we are justified by faith alone, as I believe Jim has or somebody stated, by faith alone, by the merit works of Christ alone. And that's that. That's how we are justified or find favor with God. And that's a great and should be and is a great comfort to us that our salvation is alone.
In the perfection of our Savior Christ Jesus. Paul writes to the Galatians in this kind of a way that he says that if anyone bring another gospel, be it an angel even, let that person be accursed. And so we believe simply and only by grace. We need to be careful, however, that we don't begin to have
And I'm not accusing anyone of this. I speak to myself as to all that if we think or have this kind doctrine that we say that we believe of grace, but let's be careful a little bit with the but. We believe of grace alone. If we add something to it, a demand for this or that,
I make no accusations against any of you in this room, or anyone for that matter, but just in a general sense. We cannot add something to that. If we believe we are justified by faith alone, but we answer, but, that's another gospel. And we need to be careful with that. In times past, then, there have been those that say that, for example,
The speakers at Wolf Lake have spoken perhaps too much of grace. It's not possible to speak too much of grace. And we can have this kind of a trust in grace that it teaches us correctly. It is not going to lead us. If we believe of grace alone, it does not lead us into permissiveness of sin.
Why so? Paul writes, and he says in this way, I'll paraphrase it because I don't have Bible in front of me, but if we believe of grace, should we then conclude within ourselves that we should go do sin? God forbid. For grace teaches us that our sins, A, are indeed forgiven. They have been bought and paid for. The sin debt that we have accumulated
As human beings has been paid for on the middle cross of Golgotha. And it does not lead to a life of sin. We need to be careful. The confession matter, we haven't had
Too much discussion certainly in larger groups about private confession. These are all good and valuable things. We have experienced them in our own lives and have needed to use them. But they are not our salvation. I think we can all, and I hear this, that we can believe of grace alone and that is sufficient. We don't want to add or subtract.
Another matter that I'll speak of briefly is some have started to talk, and I will be open and honest that at the recent MBMAC meeting, I was troubled a great deal about some, and in fact many, of the speeches that were kept there. In particular, some speeches
Begin to elude to or in many cases outright say that some who they are, I do not know, would need to repent of a false spirit. Some have eluded or begin to suggest that there are two spirits. This is dangerous business. I had a conversation with one brother
At that meeting, not during the meeting, but in private, we had discussed this. And I had asked him this question that, or not rather question, but said in this way that it bothers me that there's many speeches here that speak of wrong spirits and that some unknown individuals would need to make a repentance of a false spirit. I have understood in this way that
We as children of God by faith are owners of a gift. What is the gift? The gift is of the Holy Spirit. We believe first and then the gift of the Holy Spirit is come unto us.
This is evidenced in Scripture in many places. Holy Spirit doesn't come first and then faith. No, the other way. First we have believed, and then the Spirit of God is gifted unto us. Also then, in this conversation, he alluded to something along these lines, that a believer can possess a false spirit
And be a believer at the same time, simultaneously. This is not so. Many places in the Bible speak of this. I'll share one with you. Jesus, I believe it was, and correct me if I'm wrong, I may be incorrect on that, but gives a story of a house in which an evil spirit dwelt
And it went out of the man. And the house was cleaned. It was garnished. And it was empty, swept clean. And the evil spirit that was in this man went in dry places and wandered around and decided to itself, I will return to the house from whence I have left.
And he brought with him seven more spirits worse than himself, and the state of the man was worse than the first. In other words, this human heart that God had prepared, chased out the false spirit, was ready for a different spirit to dwell in it. What was that spirit? Spirit of God.
But for whatever reason, the Bible does not give us any more detail. The spirit of God did not enter into that heart. But the old spirit came back and brought with it more and worse than the first. It's a picture for us, as I understand it, and maybe we should discuss this yet this afternoon, that a false spirit
And the Spirit of God do not dwell in the same house. And so I was seriously troubled by many speeches at the MBMAC meeting which indicated that some are in false spirits and that they would need to repent. And who these people are that are in false spirits, I know not. But to me, it's an incredibly dangerous thing
To begin to speak of false spirits, and I don't know then what the understanding is. I mean, who are these people that are in these false spirits that are alluded to? Are we greeting them? If we are, we have incredible danger to become ecumenical that we greet those who have false spirits.
And so that's one matter that I wanted to talk about openly here today, that the MBMAC meeting, I was asked these questions at the meeting that the chairmen, so there's not very many here today necessarily that were there, maybe some, around those issues, and whether I agreed with, for example, the speeches at MBMAC, and I'll say honestly, I did not.
And now I have attempted to explain to you why I was very uncomfortable with them. And it was this seemingly loose and cavalier statements that some are in false spirits. The other question that is before this meeting, and perhaps that's the reason that it was even called, is a discussion around this inviting question.
Jim had alluded to earlier a situation that apparently has happened in Finland, and I have no clue what those would be. But I note to you, brothers, dear, a key distinction. And that is that that brother who went to serve at that congregation first spoke. And we as believers, when we hear
A brother speak, we have duty then to listen to the word of God as it is preached, not with such an ear that critically starts to judge the weakness of the brother's words, but is he speaking according to scripture? That's a key word, according to the scriptures. In the case that we have before us,
My brother in particular, in the Cokato situation, did not go there to speak. But the disinvitation happened prior. I have stated in both publicly and in letters to Cokato that I felt that their actions were wrong. They were incorrect. And someone here earlier spoke incorrectly so that sin
Is that which separates or causes love to be broken? I have stated to you, dear brothers, before, both in Cokato and in Brainerd and Detroit by extension, that what you have done was not right. It was and is, as happened before, dividing of the body of Christ
Saying to the hand, I have no need of thee. And I have thought that it necessary, even at this meeting, to remind you that these matters that have taken place, this action, if you will, this fruit, was not correct. We've heard much and good speeches about the Holy Spirit.
And the congregation, they certainly are inseparable. Christ himself says that he is the head and ye are the body jointly fit together. We can't separate them, nor should we. But let's be careful, very careful, when we begin to put emphasis on what the spirit in the congregation says. So it is that we ought to hear it.
But how shall that spirit be judged? For the Bible says that many spirits go out into the world. How do we then, dear brothers, judge that voice, that spirit in the congregation, whether it is correct or incorrect? By only one means, the holy written word of God.
And I have attempted in weakness to use that scripture portion that in my mind and understanding speaks to the division of the body. I spoke of it also at the chairman's meeting and perhaps incompletely, I can't recall, but Solomon's judgment speaks of mothers who is our mother
If God in heaven is our father, then who is our mother? Bible gives answer that our mother is the congregation of God, the pillar and truth here on this earth. But there can come, and has in histories, a different mother. Solomon's judgment was such. How did he then decide? What kind God-given wisdom did he use?
When two mothers were fighting over the same child, he discerned it by love by saying, cut the child into two with a sword. The correct mother did not wish to divide the child. The correct mother thought that even though I cannot have this child,
I'll let it go to this even false mother that it would live. It's very difficult for me to understand how some of you dear brothers have equated this action of disinviting as love. Love, the love of Christ does not divide. It does not divide.
It's a different matter. And I was asked this kind of a hypothetical question, and I know that we don't like them because they can often get us into trouble. But it was asked of me that what would it take for Wolf Lake to say to some other brother serving in other places that they would not come? The answer is this. If the brother himself has openly denied his faith,
This has happened also in history where some brother has been a speaker but the enemy of his soul has beguiled him. Begin to believe something different. Perhaps they started to live in open sin of the left-hand side and finally have concluded themselves that this whole believing is nothing but rubbish. The congregation, both their home congregation and all the others would not use such a one.
The other reason that this kind of matter may come forth is that an open heresy has developed. Neither of these are cases today. I thought that the decision by Cokato was very regrettable and its consequences are far reaching, not just locally, but throughout the Zion in America and perhaps even the world. The situation that has been developed
That has developed based on these actions are not sustainable. It's not possible that in the long term some congregations accept some brothers and some do not. Jesus speaks of this. A house divided against itself shall fall. It shall fall. I believe it not too late
To repair this matter, and there's only one way to repair it, those that have done it and fell into this sin would ask for forgiveness. Those that have supported it would humble themselves unto repentance. On these other doctrinal matters, they are deep in many ways. We may never know the answers to them.
Perhaps it's wise that we would continue to discuss them in patience. Have we no faith anymore to say that God, with His Spirit, the living congregation of God, will ultimately reveal what those differences, if they are, exist? But this action that has been taking place is regrettable. It is sorrowful. It has been hurtful.
And it has a very serious consequence that unless these matters can be cared for, put under the blood of Jesus and realized, may God then open it to be what it is, that it was wrong. If that, may God open these matters
And a disaster of open heresy even could be avoided. But if it is not so, as I have said in the meeting of the chairmen, and I say to you now, the danger of open heresy is evident and high. I know that some other congregations have also considered this.
I spoke to the chairmen as I will to you. I beg you not to make this kind of a decision so hastily. Consider it, for the hand cannot say to the foot, I have no need of thee. May God grant us patience in these matters, understanding where error has happened,
Hearts to not only realize, but on our part, hearts to forgive. It's difficult often to forgive. I want to make one last point here, and it is this. There's a danger on both sides as happened before. Some have stated here, and correctly so, that in some matters it seems that we go round and round.
It's not sustainable in this same group to continue these discussions without all of us losing our first love and drying ourselves up. It is possible to be right and to still be wrong. This happened to the angel in Revelations. He understood all those things, had fought against them.
But it has lost his first love. The first love of one another is a fruit of faith. And we can take these meetings too far and too numerous without outside help from other places far and near and end up stirring ourselves into a difficult position where we dry up and can no longer view each other as only faulty Christians but maybe something more
I think that it would be good for us to discuss this matter of disinvitation. Perhaps you have a different mind. And if that is so, we can try and discuss those things. But at some point, I would advise all of us to seek the help of a broader group of people, perhaps the whole country and Finland and wherever it may be,
That we don't end up drying ourselves up. This danger is close. I know it's close to you. Many of you have spoken of the weariness that has overcome you. We have experienced the same. These are just some of my thoughts. And I know that no doubt perhaps they have come across as whatever it is. I don't mean to, and in no way,
I try to put myself up on someone who knows everything or I don't know anything. I'll say like Paul, I know nothing except Jesus Christ and him crucified. Imagine Paul who God had revealed so much to yet had that humility that he didn't know anything except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Another thing that comes to mind when we speak of Paul, whom God had given great understanding, and we have wrestled with some of these doctrinal matters over the years. And maybe we should step back and say like this, that in this life, we're not ever going to see them perfectly clearly. There may be many gaps in our understanding as to what it is we see through a dark, like a glass darkly.
Or however it says. Should we not then be satisfied in this knowledge that the grace of God is sufficient for us? Andrew Raisanen, Brainerd. Andrew Raisanen, Brainerd. I'll try to collect my thoughts here.
I know it's not easy. And I just want to kind of talk about how in Brainerd as a board member, you know, how I was able to support disinviting a dear brother in faith, I feel, from coming to serve in our congregation. I don't know what happened in the 80s. I don't know if there's bitterness between
Different people in Zion, you know, Wolf Lake, Menahga, Rockford, Cokato, I have no idea. I do know I moved to Brainerd with my family. It's been a good home for me, and it's helped strengthen my faith. When these discussions started coming up at our board, you know, Darwin is scheduled to speak, what should we do?
I was the first to say, well, why wouldn't we let him come? He hasn't denied his faith. Nobody disagreed with me there. And we felt we couldn't make a decision about whether he should come. Our hopes and prayers were that there's meetings in place, there's things going on, hopefully this confusion will be cleared up. And I didn't know what the confusion was. I didn't really go looking. But you start to hear what it is.
And as the date got closer for Darwin to come and there was this board meeting in Menahga and our chairman was in a roundabout way invited, it just kind of happened. And after the details of that meeting were relayed to our board, there was no hesitation that why couldn't this speaker wait? Why could we not ask him not to come at this time because there's confusion?
It wasn't, you can't come, don't come. It was, let's put this service on hold, let's wait. I heard that the way Darwin took this, and Darwin isn't here. I know Darwin very little, he seems like a great guy. But it sounded like he was very upset and wanted someone to show him in the good book where he spoke differently.
I've heard a lot of talk here about doctrine. And I know very little about doctrine. I've been in a lot of different places in the world. And I've been in unbelief. And there's one thing I know. The doctrine can sound exactly the same in many different churches. When I come here and I listen,
And I hear what some of the brothers say. I will say it causes confusion in my mind about how I am saved. And I just know I cling to the gospel. And there was a point in my life where I asked questions and I looked into doctrine and I wanted to know, well, why aren't these people gonna make it to heaven?
I remember having discussions and debates long into the night with unbelieving friends in school that were very, very, very religious and knew the doctrine. And they said a lot of things like, we are saved by grace. Simply believe and you will make it to heaven. Jesus died for all of us, but I did not find comfort in that. I find comfort in the gospel.
I cling to that, I believe, simply like a child. And I remember my mother telling me that if you don't stay close to the mother congregation, God very well could take your faith away. And that's exactly what happened to me. And I remember when I repented how hearing that gospel was like a door opening.
And the longer I would go without it, the harder the journey would become. And so when I hear that it's okay just to believe and just to believe in grace, I would not want my children to believe that way because I feel like they would lose their faith someday as an adult when the weight of the world comes under their shoulders.
I feel like I'm kind of babbling now, but going back to this disinvitation, in my heart there was love and concern and patience. Why can't we wait to have somebody, if there's confusion, why can't we wait to have these people serve in our congregation? If our congregation is concerned, what is the harm in waiting? I don't feel like that's a sin. And if it is a sin,
Well, then I would hope that somebody would rebuke me of that sin and that I would have a humble heart and I would accept that. That person that would rebuke me, I would accept their thoughts and that I would want to have that sin forgiven. I feel like, it sounds to me like there's something different here. And I hear robes of righteousness, I've heard continual forgiveness, I've heard grace.
And I've heard of grace in the past, but I've never heard robes of righteousness or of continual forgiveness until recently. I'm sure I've read about it in the Bible and I've heard it in conversation, but never in such great depth. And I'll be honest, it's extremely confusing. And I, instead of going to the Bible and trying to read more about it, I do the complete opposite. I just try to believe simply. I don't dig into all these details.
Because I feel like for me that's a place of watching. So I guess one question I have is, has something changed? Has something changed? I think of people that are close to me, that I've known my whole life, that now seem to have a different understanding.
And maybe even think that the way they were raised is different, or was wrong, and that now they've found something a little different, that something's changed, that the way I was raised was incorrect. And I would ask that if you feel that way, is what's changing or what's different in your heart, is that right? I would just ask that
And coming here, I just had all my own confusion and fears and trials, and I just want to hear that gospel. Who's next? Sam.
I was a little timid and hesitant to take the microphone again. A couple of thoughts. I was listening to dear brother Roger's speaking turn and it sounds like
It sounds like the actions that have been done, taken by the Cokato brothers and Detroit and Brainerd, it sounds like Wolf Lake thinks that this was a hasty decision and as Roger said, that it was wrong. And
I guess my comment earlier or question about the whole office of the Holy Spirit and God's kingdom leads to this thought and this perspective
That God is a patient God. He's a loving God. But as he told Noah that, my spirit will not always strive with men. And when I heard of that action and that decision, my reaction was similar to it.
Dear Brother Andrew said that it's good to pause and visit about these matters and these concerns that have been discussed for many years so that we can be helped in faith. And
I heard a little bit of the history in the background from Keith. I guess my comment about the office of the Holy Spirit in the congregation goes back to even two and a half years ago to that minister's camp where I was able to be at. And it felt so good.
As Tom read from the 15th chapter of Acts and at the conclusion of that meeting, those brothers said, it felt good to the Holy Ghost and to us. And that was how I felt after that meeting. It felt good to the Holy Ghost and to us. When we had visited for many hours on forgiveness and those other matters, that we all had the same common understanding there. And you other brothers that were there can correct me
But that was how I had experienced it. But then, I guess the office of the Holy Spirit and the function of the Holy Spirit in the congregation puts us into a very humble place. And to hear a comment that, when you hear that kind of a statement that there, when we,
We all agreed that there may be a time. And then to hear some say that I cannot go along with that or I cannot agree with that raises that concern that are you putting yourself above the Holy Spirit in the congregation? Jesus told all those angels of the seven churches that he that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith in the congregation, in the churches. And
One of the concerns that remains with me is when we have visited about these matters in ministers' camps or speakers' and wives' camps or Bible camp or MBMAC meetings or speakers' and elders' meetings,
And it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, and the understanding of God's kingdom hadn't changed, that then there is this voice or this, is it a small group or what that says that I don't agree. And they don't, it doesn't come out so openly in those discussions, but there is this resistance.
And it was not this past MBMAC, but maybe it was the year before when we visited about these matters and these wrong understandings and how none of us are immune from wrong understandings, but the danger is when we persist in them against what the voice of the Holy Spirit has said in the congregations.
And the encouragement has been to take care of those matters. That encouragement has been at ministers' camps and even at the most recent MBMAC that those who... When I sat and listened to those speaking turns, my heart said, Amen. And there was a loving call to take care of matters if you are battling against or resisting or disagreeing. And...
And I guess I didn't, I don't, I haven't heard the recording, I guess, so I don't remember that there would have been an accusation of false spirit in that way. But Paul writes to the Corinthians, we know how in the 12th chapter when he says there are many gifts in the congregations. And one of the gifts that he speaks about is in the King James Version, it says the discerning of spirits.
In the newest Finnish translation, it translates that as being able to distinguish one spirit from another. And I guess I would want to be so humble that even though I would not see or understand where one spirit is from another, I would want to be that humble that if other children of God
Would have that kind of a concern or bring that up that I would not be so wise to diminish that, reject that outright, disagree with it, but that I would want to stop and listen. And ask what is the voice of the Spirit speaking to me? We know
Paul writes what the fruits of the Spirit are. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience, meekness, temperance, faithfulness. Against such there is no law. And Jesus spoke about, there will come wolves in sheep's clothing.
He didn't say that you will know them by their wrong doctrine. He didn't say that you will know them exactly where they are preaching wrong, but he says you will, he says, by their fruits ye shall know them. And it has, when, well, I was not able to be at the most recent minister's camp
But the reports that I have heard from the brothers that have been there, that when there was an offering or a suggestion that those who would be of a different mind than what was presented in Jim Frantti's presentation to speak, that many of these brothers chose to speak at that time.
Exactly talked about where they disagreed or not is unclear. But I guess that is a fruit. And when we look at, and it's been a good reminder for me that when we, that the children of God listen to a sermon
That I would preach and if the fruits are such that they hear the voice of the Good Shepherd and it's calling and it's gathering and uniting, then I can trust that they heard the voice of the Good Shepherd. But if the fruits of the sermon, if the fruits of the preaching are causing confusion, raising dust or smoke in the congregation, then it's good to stop and visit and take care of
Of me, if it would be my preaching, or of any brother, so that not one would be lost to the enemy. And I guess my prayer is that if I would ever need to be cared for or concerns would be brought, that I would be humble enough or even, well, the flesh is the flesh and you get pretty defensive pretty fast when somebody would tell you that you're doing something wrong.
That God would give that kind of a humble mind to hear and to stop and listen. But I feel my own sinfulness and often have weak words and need to ask, can I believe my own sins forgiven? Jon Bloomquist.
Again, I feel pretty timid to speak. I feel like I have more questions than answers. But I got left feeling pretty uncomfortable with Roger's speech.
One, Sam's touched on some of the issues. Roger mentioned this understanding of forgiveness, for example, and that goes back. We had that discussion numerous times, I think, and that's been referred to. And I think that it's one of those things that
I've felt like, you know, I really don't want to debate that question anymore. I know what I believe. Some have mentioned, for example, scriptural examples, Samuel, Esau,
The keys themselves, I think, enter into the question. Achan is another. And all I can say is that the understanding that I have and that I have shared and that other brothers have shared and in which we are in agreement
It's the same as that that Martin Luther, for example, has expressed numerous times in his writing. And you'll find it in the confessional writings. And I think that it's the understanding that has been in living Christianity before the 1980s
During the 1980s and after the 1980s, it doesn't mean that mistakes were not made, even in that area. But as is stated with regard to other like issues, for example, confession, in the confessional writings,
And we could apply it to many cases. The fact that something is misused or even abused in some case does not preclude or exclude its proper use. And that fact remains. So on that issue,
I guess I just have a different understanding than Roger. Then the question of false spirits is one that we've talked about a lot in smaller circles. I've shared my concerns about that issue with some of the brothers sitting across the room from me.
And they can confirm it. One of the mistakes of the 1980s and maybe the most serious mistake was that there were occasions when people were labeled with a false spirit because they had erred in something and it wasn't really
In the final analysis, a question of a false spirit. And I hope that I and all of us have learned some lessons from those mistakes. It's said that we learn from our mistakes, and I hope that that's the case. But in connection with that issue
And the discussion of it. I spent a lot of time looking at the way that the term the Spirit is used in the Holy Scriptures. I think often we tend to think of it in that way, like the Holy Spirit is God's presence that occupies or dwells in our heart through His Spirit. He's there. It's like this entity.
But we find in the Holy Scriptures that the term spirit is used in many senses and in many contexts to mean different things. One being a disposition of mind, for example. And after the 80s,
You know, it's an issue I pondered a lot because if you say somebody's in a false spirit, then it seems to me, as I think Roger alluded to, you can't, then you have to conclude they don't have the Holy Spirit. It's, you know, it's not both in that way. But Jesus once said to his disciples,
When they were traveling through Samaria and they asked, I think, probably quarters that evening in that village and they were rejected. And a couple of the disciples said, should we command that fire and brimstone would be rained down on this village? And Jesus said to them, ye know not
What manner of spirit we are. And I've thought about that a lot. And what does that mean? Did it mean that the disciples weren't believers? That they didn't have the Holy Spirit? And then I've also thought a lot about what Paul has written to the Galatians in the fifth chapter when he speaks of
The fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the spirit. And he speaks of, when he speaks of the fruits of the flesh, he speaks of things like strife, seditions, and heresy. These are fruits of the flesh. For example, and,
I have thought in these discussions that we've had when there are differences of mind, differences, it seems, at time of attitude even, that, and I've heard brothers speak in this way, that there's like two different spirits here. And I feel like, well, you know, we ought to really be careful
Because of the mistakes of the 80s and kind of the baggage or the perceptions that go with the use of that term that we want to be cautious. But I believe that I've shared this thought that, you know, I'm not ready to say that somebody is in a false spirit.
I'm able to say if somebody makes a statement or utters a teaching or acts in some way that doesn't seem right, that seems that it's not from the Spirit of God, I can say that. That didn't come from the Spirit of God. It comes from the flesh.
And I feel more comfortable in that area of this issue. I think what happens if somebody wars against the Spirit of God continually, persists in their errors,
Then, yeah, time, I'm sure, does come when the Spirit of God says, this is not a fit dwelling anymore. And it departs when the flesh finally overcomes the Spirit. And, you know, we easily think of fruits of
The flesh is being especially like sensual types of things. But rebellion and witchcraft, seditions, envies, heresies, these are also fruits of the flesh. And bitterness and anger, those kinds of things, if we dismiss those or justify ourselves, you know, it's okay
To hold on to those kinds of feelings, that's not right either. And we defile ourselves in that way. And so I think that I agree with Roger in that, that we want to be careful in the way we use that. And it can't be used as a threat or a club in any way.
To speak about false spirits. But I think, on the other hand, if something seems contrary to the Spirit of God and the Word of God, then we need to speak up and say, you know, that doesn't come from the Spirit of God, or I have a different understanding or a different thought about that.
One of the things that has disappointed me in the last several years, the last MBMAC meeting is one. Roger alluded to the fact that he was not comfortable with many of the, or some of, I don't know if you use the term many, some of the speeches that were kept there.
I was uncomfortable with one speech as well, and I think those of you that were there or were listening recall that I raised my concern. And one of the things that has concerned me, not just about the MBMAC meeting, but some other meetings, is that when
The possibility to speak about issues of which we are of a different mind has been offered. And in fact, in many cases, brothers in the meeting have pleaded that those of you who are of a different mind would speak up. You haven't done so.
For me, personally, like I said at the beginning of the meeting, and that's the way it was at the MBMAC meeting, I was troubled. I was troubled by one speech. And I felt like, you know, I need to speak up about that. And one of the reasons that I did it is we're in a difficult situation. Let's be honest, we all know, we felt it today. We're in a difficult place.
And I felt that the frame of reference that the brother used, the scripture portion that he used, created a wrong frame of reference and put those of you who are of a different mind in a more difficult place if it mischaracterizes the issue. And so I spoke up.
And I did it, you know, I thought for your benefit as well. And like I said, though, it disappoints me that some of you brothers who are here, who have been at those meetings and who have heard the concern, sincere concern,
And pleas of brothers from other congregations and other areas to please speak up have not. And that contributes to this of which you complain, that there's a lot of talk going around. That, in all honesty, contributes to that.
You have opportunities to speak to these things and have been implored to do so and have not. What kind of reaction do you expect is going to happen from that? It leaves more questions. And then we hear different reports of
The nature of the meeting, of course, that raises more concerns and more questions. So I commend Roger for speaking to those things today and others of you who have spoken to them. But I hope, like I said in the beginning of the meeting, I hope you can start to see these things also from the perspective of the rest of us who have tried.
Who have asked in the past that you would speak to these questions and the confusion and the sort of uncertainty that it causes.
And we hear reports too. Negative things. Many people report negative things that they hear said about LLC, for example. Whoever he is, you know. And I think it's important to keep in mind when we talk about LLC. Yes, there are brothers, for example, on the LLC board that their LLC has a face.
Smaller, it's more concrete. And same with the staff at the office. But those individuals, many of them have been selected already to serve in those offices for quite many years. Others more recently. And every year they report
At the annual meeting on what's been done and what the plans are and during the course of the year we have publications, we have workshops, we have all these things where we discuss doctrine and Christian teachings and all of that work has been received, it seems, by
The majority of our membership, I won't deny that there are those who are more critical, but the vast majority, it appears, of our membership has supported that and has said that's how we believe and that's our mind and attitude about these things as well. So when you talk about LLC, that's who you're talking about.
So let's keep that in mind as well. Then, you know, Roger mentioned maybe some accusations of preaching too much grace. And I agree with what he said. We can't preach grace too much of God's grace.
There is also more to this question than that. It's not a but. It's a reality that God's grace teaches also. And during Luther's time, there was a conflict that arose. It was labeled the antinomian conflict.
And I'm not saying this is the same thing, but there are things that have come up, I think, that bear some resemblance. And here's a little bit of what Luther says about the antinomians. He says, who are preaching beautifully and, as I cannot but think, with real sincerity about Christ's grace.
About the forgiveness of sin and whatever else can be said about the doctrine of redemption. But they flee as it were the very devil, the consequence that they should tell the people about the third article of sanctification. That is of the new life in Christ. I suppose my main point
Here is not to say that, well, that's like the doctrinal difference here. But this, that there is also, as I think our brother Andrew stated, there is this that sometimes it's not what's said. It's what's not said, what's missing. Esa Tuomala,
In his book, the procession, victory procession of God's children or whatever the title is exactly translated, unfortunately it's not in English. But he mentions there when he speaks about, writes about the woman at the well of Sychar and living water. He talks about that, that, you know, we can,
We can hear a sermon, and I can testify, I have heard such sermons from unbelieving preachers that we could say are scripturally based, they may be very eloquent, and what they say is right. But they don't contain a drop of living water.
There's something that's missing there. And again, it kind of makes the point that it's not always just that. Is there something wrong with what's been said? And of course, I've mentioned this when it's come up. That makes it really difficult, of course,
To identify, to deal with, to somehow get your arms around, what is it that's wrong here? It's pretty elusive. And I wouldn't draw any kinds of conclusions on the basis of one sermon. But when our brother Tommi spoke earlier today,
I think he kind of hit on what has caused unrest in the sermons of some brothers. And that's that there seems to be some sort of maybe a shift in
The emphasis, I can remember the terms that [Tommi] used, they were really good, but it just doesn't quite sound familiar anymore. Something's different. It's not that I can say there was something that's wrong, but something about this doesn't sound familiar and right anymore.
And again, that's very elusive. It's hard to kind of put your finger on. But I can say that with regard to Phil and Darwin, I'm not a guy that goes around and listens to sermons on the internet. I listen to the sermons that I hear when I'm
Sitting in the bench in church and then when I go on walks once in a while I'll listen to old Finnish sermons to try and help my Finnish a little bit. Mostly I read. But twice during the past year, once from another congregation I got a call from a brother who said that, you know,
And Darwin was here this weekend, and I wish Darwin was here, but it caused a lot of unrest in our congregation. And we don't know what we should do. It's not like you could put a finger on anything. But one member of our congregation came up and said, well, I thought I went to the wrong church this morning.
He asked me, you know, do you think that, should we, what should we do about it? And I said, well, I think that, you know, maybe at the minister's camp, if a few of you want to visit with Darwin about it, that would be appropriate. You can share that. These concerns came up, but I said, I have to say, I feel that they're a part of this bigger problem.
That were the reason that we're all here today. And in view of the fact that there's nothing sort of concrete, it just makes it harder to deal with. Same thing happened in Menahga when Darwin was here in June or July. We had a few people that were troubled by his sermon. And I was sitting there listening to it.
And yeah, there was nothing concrete that Darwin said that was wrong. But I also understood why they felt troubled by it. And it's hard, it's really hard. And when the Cokato brothers
Made their decision. I understand it was a hard decision and likewise in Brainerd. I don't think that it was done hastily. I'm pretty confident of that. And I think that at some point, I hope that you brothers from Wolf Lake and Phil and Darwin included, and again, I wish they were still able to be here. At some point,
It would be good to ask, why is that? Is there something in our actions, in our words, that is causing this concern? And not take the position that we're right and everybody else is wrong. I understand, we all understand
The majority does not make you right. Heresies have happened in which God's children have been the minority. And heresies have happened in which God's children have been the majority. And I wish that we wouldn't be talking about heresies. Because just like talk of false spirits, it can be used in a way that is a little bit intimidating
And like a club. Likewise, the threat of heresy can be a little bit of a club. And, you know, I don't know how you brothers from Wolf Lake, the letters that you sent to Cokato and to Brainerd,
If you realize how those come across, I find them pretty troubling. Especially, you know, the last one in which the suggestion that, you know, by withdrawing the invitation to a speaker brother in this situation you're going to cause a heresy.
I understand, you know, where maybe the connection to 1973 and that heresy, where that comes from. But I think the circumstances are different. The situation is different. It's not, you know, Roger said, well, first, he referred to the example that Jim gave, well, first come and speak and then raise the issue.
The issue has come up, maybe not in Cokato and maybe not in Brainerd, but in other places and in other meetings. When, you know, at the speaker's meeting, and that's what got left in my mind, is at the speaker's meeting there was an opportunity, an invitation for those who were of a different mind to speak up. And I commended the brothers that spoke up
For doing so. But when I thought back afterwards, it didn't occur to me at the time, some of those speeches left me pretty uncomfortable. But it was never clear, at least to me, what it was they disagreed with. I don't recall that they spoke to any
So I think that you have to, if you look at it from the perspective of Cokato brothers or Brainerd brothers or brothers in other congregations, there's this cloud here of question and uncertainty. And they're concerned about their own congregations.
And not wishing to cause confusion and unrest there. They are not cutting off Phil or Darwin. They have not said these are not members of the body of Christ. But there are some questions and concerns here, and maybe it would be wise, I think not only for the congregations, but for Phil and Darwin as well.
Let's talk about those concerns and bring them to some kind of resolution. After all, you know, Paul writes both to the Thessalonians and to the Romans about those who are of a different mind. And for example, he says,
When he writes to the Thessalonians about different issues, but in principle he says, if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. And then from Romans, which we've heard recently in these recent years,
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them. So I think it's been very evident today. It's been evident in earlier meetings. Yeah, there are some differences of mind here, some differences of understanding. And we haven't found the bottom of it yet and what the real reasons are. But nobody here
And I say this to you, dear brothers from Wolf Lake, nobody here wants to cut you off. But we recognize there are some differences and we hope that we can continue to discuss these things. And I have to say, I found it in a way ironic, maybe that's not the right term,
That you would suggest that Cokato and Brainerd, for example, are cutting off, you know, Phil and Darwin or the Wolf Lake congregation from the body of Christ when in March, I think it was, or maybe it was earlier in the year, when we met here, some LLC brothers with Wolf Lake Brothers. And there was a request for a broader meeting to be held in southern Minnesota.
And you made, I won't say it was a demand, but pretty strong specific request. The Menahga board and speakers not be invited to that meeting. Is that in any way different? I was really surprised when the brothers reported back from the chairman's meeting that
Actually, I don't know, maybe Roger's got a different perspective on it, but the brothers asked about that. And if I recall correctly, and Roger, you can correct the record if it's wrong, that you kind of answered that you didn't know how the congregations that were there were invited. And that is a technically and lawyerly correct response, I'm sure.
But you absolutely know why the Menahga congregation was not, the brothers were not invited. You wouldn't share it with that whole meeting, but you shared it with Jim Frantti and I afterwards. And our perspective on that here in Menahga was not to take offense at it. We recognized that it's a part of this bigger picture.
And doesn't really have anything to do with us personally, at least not as far as we know. So, you know, I hope that you would find a way to put a different perspective on the concerns that Cokato and Brainerd congregations have expressed.
You can choose. You can choose the perspective you want to put on it. You can choose the perspective that you've presented, that if you so do, you're going to cause a heresy. Or you can choose a perspective similar to what we did or something a little more gracious and acknowledge that, you know, maybe it's not the worst thing for now until we're able to discuss
And resolve some of these issues. When we met in December, our board, we had seen your letters. And we discussed what would our attitude be coming to this meeting. And we agreed.
That we do not want to see us take that kind of a course of action that over this issue we would decide that there's going to be a heresy. We hope that the worst outcome from this meeting would be if we can't reach the best resolution that we would
Agree to continue to discuss in earnest now these issues. And I can say that I think we've waited now for several years hoping that with you brothers from Wolf Lake we could continue some of these discussions. That those could begin in earnest now. And let's talk, if we need to talk about doctrinal issues, we can talk about them. I'm personally not convinced that they are
The real root, maybe they are. Like I said, I have more questions than answers. But I guess that's kind of my perspective on what Roger shared there. It's not a small thing to talk of false spirits.
And it's an even bigger thing if we start talking about heresy. Those of you who are here, I didn't live through the last heresy. I received the grace of repentance afterwards. But there are families to this day who remain divided and separated by a spiritual wall that came from that heresy.
It is not a light matter. May God grant us all wisdom and humility to proceed with a childlike mind. I hope that that can happen.
I want to ask if I can believe my own sins and doubts forgiven. Sorry for the long talk. Keith and then Jim. Dear brothers, our bus is leaving shortly here. Sam's got to get back for the parents' evening in Elk River. But a couple of thoughts that I
One was regarding this question of unforgiven sin. It would take a lot more time than we have to begin to delve into a subject like that. It's a deep doctrinal question, and I don't want to go there right now. But I guess the one thought that I had about it is I think the concern around that is if we begin to minimize the need for caring for the wounds of conscience.
And when we preach the gospel, we preach that you can believe all sins forgiven. And there are no sins that are excluded from that when we preach that way, that we can believe all sins forgiven. But then, when wounds of conscience remain in bothering us, there's only one way, as we know, to care for them. And if we don't care for them,
Like the songwriter writes, wounds of conscience left untended always lead into the world. So with this question, my concern has been as if we get so deeply into this doctrinal question, we lose sight of the simplicity of the everyday endeavor of faith that yes, we can believe all of our sins forgiven, everything of grace, but caring for the conscience is very important.
Then secondly, I just wanted to say also in reference to what Jim said about calling of speakers and if there's concern over a speaker. When I was in Finland in 2015, I visited with a couple of brothers, one in particular that was in charge of calling speakers to his congregation, visiting speakers. And they share visiting speakers much more in Finland than we do on a regular basis.
But he clearly told me that if there's concern over a brother, they don't call him. They don't call him to come to serve. And that's not cutting off the body of Christ. That's caring for the congregation and also for the brother over whom I'm sure discussions have taken place with him over the concerns around him.
Then I wanted to mention with regard to what Bruce said earlier and what we talked about in the beginning of the meeting. When I spoke about Darwin and Phil after the minister's camp two and a half years ago taking care of matters in the congregation, I was not questioning their sincerity at all. And I told them that before they left and they didn't take it that way. I was questioning the position of the congregation with regard to what they were taking care of. Did the congregation
Agree with the concerns that were expressed about Darwin and Phil at the minister's camp. That remains my concern yet today. And I don't have enough time to go into that any further, but the last thing I want to say, dear brothers, dear Wolf Lake brothers, I hope that this has come across to you in love and out of concern, and I share so much what
John and Sam have already spoken with regard to what Roger has spoken and other, and I guess Bruce and Al and others here, that consider what's being said. These are words, sincere words of love and concern for you. Drop the defenses and consider in your hearts
The loving concern that is being expressed for your undying souls and for the care of your congregation. May God help, dear brothers. Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and he will exalt you in due time. Can I believe my sins and doubts forgiven?
Well, dear brothers, we have to leave. Those of us who came from the cities down there, and actually I have to eventually catch a flight back to Phoenix. I came from Phoenix. I gave you greetings from God's country, but in truth I came from Phoenix to this meeting. But just briefly before leaving, I would want to join with these brothers on
This thought that Roger expressed that the decisions of Cokato and Brainerd, he said that those are sin. And that kind of statement really troubles me. And also that these were hastily made decisions. When I have talked with the brothers from these congregations,
I get the impression that they were difficult decisions made with a lot of discussion and deliberation and made out of concern for the congregation that has given them the duty to serve. And I feel really bad to think that those decisions that they tried as best they could to make on behalf of the congregation would be given that kind of label that they were sin.
You know, none of us as speakers have an entitlement to speak. It's a duty God gives us through his congregation. And if God through his congregation tells us not to speak, we don't. I remember when I was called to serve as a speaker, one older speaker brother
He gave me some kind of simple but sage advice. He said, if they tell you to go and speak, go and speak. And if they don't, then don't. And, you know, we serve at the will of God and his congregation. We are, after all, servants. We're not entitled to anything. You know, I'm hoping, I wish that the other Wolf Lake brothers were still here, but I know when Phil left,
He made this request for smaller discussions about things and I join with that. I'm hoping that that could happen because sometimes in a bigger discussion it's not so easy to kind of unload all your load and it would really be helpful, I think, if there could be some smaller discussions. And in fact, I've thought that it would be good, I don't doubt that
The Wolf Lake congregation has had updates from the board, Wolf Lake board, but I've wondered would it be good if some kind of presentation and discussion could be done by inviting a sort of neutral party from outside of the Wolf Lake congregation and board. One of the sister congregations or something to come and give some kind of presentation on some of these current questions. Maybe that would be helpful.
But the final thought I would want to share is that I came here with kind of an odd mix of feelings. Because on the one hand, I was looking forward to this meeting. I was thankful for it. Because it feels like the only way we're going to resolve these things is to talk about them openly and freely.
And trust that God's spirit guides where his children are present. So in that sense, I was thankful for this meeting. But personally, I came here with my own misgivings because I know myself and I know my weak understandings. I know how I can sometimes speak with words
That would maybe be better unsaid or said differently. And I have to trust that you carry me with love and forgiveness with those words. But you know I was thinking about Paul's letter to the Corinthians. You know when sometimes we hear speeches that are so sure of themselves on some issues,
I think of how Paul writes this warning to the Corinthians that let he who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. We all are in need of the instruction and the rebuke and the guidance that God's Spirit gives in his congregation. We all need that. And there's a reason why Apostle James says, be swift to hear.
And slow to speak. And dear brothers, I'm with you as a sinful fellow traveler who wants to remain in this flock and make it to heaven with you. And I ask for your prayers and also ask if I may hear the gospel. I want to believe.
And I want to leave you with that same reassurance and power of the gospel that you weak servants and weary travelers in the midst of all of these struggles can yet remain believing that your sins and failings are all forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. It is that gospel that gives us the power to make it one day to heaven.
So thank you for allowing me to be with you and God's peace, dear brothers. Yeah, thank you guys for coming and bring greetings from this meeting to your home congregations and remember us up here. If you want to hand the mic down, Gary Hoikka's next.
You said the same thing I was going to say. Gary Hoikka, Cokato congregation. You know, very timid to speak.
And first I would just say that, you know, Roger, I'm really glad you spoke up. However, I must say that I'm troubled by your speech and my thoughts were along the lines of what's already been said. But I think it's worth repeating. Being in those board meetings at Cokato when we talked about
Our dear brother Phil, it was not hasty and there was much love and concern. I honestly can say that I don't have deep understanding on these doctrinal issues.
I think we can all admit that there has been questions and confusion swirling around Zion. And at the discussions at our board meeting, there was concern for Phil and his understanding on these topics we're discussing.
At no point in any of our board discussions was there the thought that we were trying to cut off or create heresy. In fact, it was exactly the opposite.
Our desire at those board meetings were to maintain the unity and eliminate the confusion. And I just think maybe to be more specific, I know it's already been stated,
The thought that the action of Cokato or now in other cases is wrong or incorrect or sin, I'm very, very troubled by that. In a sense, to me, the way I understand that, that's calling rebuke sin. And maybe even just, maybe rebuke is too strong of a word and maybe you say it's causing having concern
I don't know. I'm really troubled. I'll leave it at that. Because that was not our intent at all. I'm sure I can speak for all the board members in Cokato and the speakers that there was no intent to cut off.
I think like was mentioned too, my thought is along these lines that, you know, since that decision was made at Cokato, we've had meetings, board meetings, congregational meetings, Southern Minnesota board meetings, MBMAC meetings, and I didn't get the impression from those meetings that those actions were wrong. So,
Just as a loving, gentle reminder, what is the Holy Spirit saying?
I too was glad to hear them. I've thought many times, I'll be real honest, I don't know that I've ever spoke to Phil in my life. But yet he is a dear brother. And many, many times since the summer I've thought
You know what, I'm just going to give him a call and show up and talk to him, but I haven't had the strength. Now maybe with his invite I will have that strength, and I pray that I do. But I just want to say to you Wolf Lake board members, and I know the speakers are gone, this will be recorded and they can hear it there that
There's no desire to create heresy or cut off. It's just simply that we can continue to care for each other and when there are concerns, we talk about them and put them away. Even if you don't understand the concern,
Or the wrong understanding. Maybe you just... I know it's been the case for me many times. You just have to acknowledge that you don't understand and listen to what the Spirit says. Another thought I had, you know, at our last board meeting,
It seemed there was a lot of discussion about Peter, the Apostle Peter. And maybe I'm honestly not scripturally versed, but I just thought how it was interesting in these times there's a lot of discussion about forgiveness and the understanding of forgiveness and maybe the... I've had the personal conversations with people that have said it's maybe just a reassurance or it's...
Almost a minimizing of the gospel. And yet, they seem so strong in their faith, where I don't always feel, I have many doubts. And I mentioned this to the other board members in Cokato, it just all of a sudden hit me when I was sitting there that, you know, it's almost like the example of Apostle Peter, where he was so strong in his faith
And yet, that last evening when Jesus was washing the feet, he didn't feel like he needed his feet washed. And Jesus had to lovingly remind him that he did. And maybe that's similar to the times now where there is understanding that we don't need forgiveness, but we do.
And the Spirit is just lovingly reminding that it is important and it is needed. And it is a grace gift or a gift that God has given us. I had another thought, but now it's gone. But anyways, coming here with many doubts and my own sins and weakness, I would like to hear that gospel.
Josh, if you could get the mic to Joe Wuollet next. Josh Byman from Menahga congregation. As I've sat here in the discussion, I've had many, many thoughts that have flowed through my mind and it seems as though they've come from, been spoken by somebody else before I've taken a turn to speak.
I would like to mention also that we here today are not alone but we are in the thoughts and prayers of the rest of God's children. I know many that I've spoken to that over the last week and so on that when we've spoke of this upcoming meeting they've expressed that they remember us in their thoughts and prayers and even
Earlier my wife sent a text message and she said, my thoughts are of you and everyone there with you today. So I want to give those greetings also from her and from many others in God's kingdom. It is with much fear and trembling that I even take a turn to speak and I wonder if I can
Have my many sins and doubts forgiven. A few things that have stuck with me now during this discussion. One is, our brother Bruce had mentioned earlier about our joint, annual joint
Board meeting and discussion that we have here in Menahga every spring with Brainerd and Wolf Lake and Menahga. And it was good to hear his feelings and thoughts from that meeting. And I would say that I rejoiced in the fact that we had a very open and free discussion. And
I know at one point during part of the discussion some of it had surrounded around the matter of confession and I was left confused by a few speeches and I asked for specific clarification on those and when those brothers spoke then of clarified I guess their understanding of confession at that time on that day I had to say that that was how I felt. And there was much openness and freedom
And it was something that I think, at least for myself, I had not anticipated for that discussion. And yet, as Bruce said, the gospel was preached. As is what I have found to be the case in every meeting and discussion that I have been a part of,
The gospel has been preached. But I would say that there's still been something inside of me that has been left a little unsettled. And I'm not so good with words and always even putting my feelings into words. And it seems as though many times when I open my mouth,
I find that in the end I need more correction than anything. But I remember some instruction that was given to me from one of my brothers who had served on the board for some time in another congregation, and I was struggling with the fact that I was asked to serve on the board here in Menahga.
gave me this advice that he said speak openly and freely whether you agree or disagree but speak open and freely for what better place to be corrected if you do not understand something correctly and it's been good encouragement and it's been nice to experience that in
This meeting in particular that there has been that freedom and that desire and willingness to speak. And I would say that same unsettled feeling that I felt as I've thought about that meeting that we had almost a year ago now has been with me today. And the only thing that I can accredit that feeling to is
That I don't believe the same way as some of these speeches. And I know that that fear that's in me even now is that fear of the flesh. That I have such a deep and great love
For every individual in God's kingdom. And I've always had a very special, special place in my heart for the Wolf Lake congregation. Each and every one of them. It's been a special place to me since my childhood. I have blood relatives there that I'm very fond of.
And it pains me deeply when I hear that I'm not so sure that we believe the same way. And maybe it's just a matter of not understanding the words and we're all given different ways to speak and words come out in different fashions. Maybe that's what it is, but it seems as though there hasn't been a clear answer.
And I had this thought Al had mentioned earlier at one point and it seemed to me that it was probably came from that portion of us that gets impatient when we discuss a matter over and over again. That how long do we want to continue to discuss this matter of forgiveness? And a thought came to me that we will discuss it until
There is one of two outcomes. One is a possibility and one is an impossibility. The impossibility would be that the Holy Spirit would begin to fall in line with the knowledge and understanding of man. The possibility, which is the outcome that I think all of us
Desire. And what has become taxing because we have not come to that outcome yet is this, that man's knowledge and wisdom and understanding would be set aside and that the understanding of the Holy Spirit would become clear to all. And in that way we would have unity on all matters in God's kingdom.
At some of the speeches earlier, there was much talk about focusing on Christ. And it seems that in many of the discussions, personal discussions I've had with individuals, there's been much talk of God and much talk of Christ and the works that he's done for us, which none can deny, and we all believe. But I'm left with this feeling
At the ends of those discussions, that where then is the Holy Spirit? And we know that when Christ arose to heaven, he instructed that he would send his Holy Spirit to be with us here on earth
To lead us and guide us and comfort us in all matters. And I think that at least in some of the discussions that I've had with specific individuals that it's been, it may be such that there's
Almost as if the office of the Holy Spirit has been diminished in their minds. And to me that worries me. Another thought that I had here, and maybe John had answered it better than I could,
When Roger was speaking earlier, he spoke about too much grace. And the thought that came to my mind was this, that in God's kingdom is found both grace and truth. And if we have only grace, we've seen, as history has shown,
Those that have had only grace have not been able to dwell forever in God's kingdom. That there has been a schism. And on the flip side of that, those that have had only truth have also been removed from God's kingdom. But grace and truth abounds together here in God's kingdom. And I think it's an important
This is a point for us to remember. And I would agree that we live by grace. And I thought to myself that how and when do I experience grace?
And for me, when it is the most evident that I personally live by grace is when I have been able to humble myself before that grace altar. And where is that found? It's found in the hearts of every believing child of God who has that power by and through the Holy Spirit to preach the forgiveness of sins. Not only
Again, they preach to the outside world and those in unbelief, but they can also preach to those of us on the inside of God's kingdom who are called believers. And when I'm able to humble myself when there's been a matter that's been on my conscience, something that has troubled me, and sometimes there's matters that I don't understand, but yet I've been able to go and visit with a dear brother or sister,
And take care of those matters. I have found God's grace flowing through the blood of Christ that cleanses my conscience for that moment. And I've thought much of
This portion of scripture from 1 John in the first chapter, verses 8, 9, and 10, where John writes, he says that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. I think it's a good reminder for all of us and I speak mostly to myself for that. I've had experiences like many others have and like Andrew had talked of earlier.
That those matters of unforgiven sin, when I did not put those matters away, they led into darkness. Then when I trusted on myself and my own mind and my own decisions and my own thoughts, it led me nowhere. But God, by His grace, has called me back into His kingdom.
And if I ponder too long as to why he's chosen me, I'll begin to doubt and fall away again. I know it because it happened. He had given me the grace of repentance and it was in that Wolf Lake Church. My father was there for a speaking turn and Elmer Alajoki was also there serving and he was giving a presentation. I don't remember what it was on even.
But I was moved at that point to put away my sins, all of them, and the greatest one was unbelief. And I remember talking to my dad. He's related a story in the past that he saw me stand up on the other side of the church during Elmer's speech, and he said to himself,
Your brother Elmer has offended my son and he's gone. Dad didn't know I was going to talk to him. I knelt by his side. I didn't have the strength, but he asked me, do you want to hear that gospel? I said, dad, for the last six years I've wanted to repent.
And he preached that gospel and those sins were removed. And that repentance at that time was by God's grace, not by my doing. But I began to rely again on my own thoughts and understandings.
And I didn't put my matters away. And I fell again into the sin of unbelief. And I've wondered many times since then, why is it that God has chosen me again? And I don't know. But if I ponder on that matter too long, I know where I'm going to go.
And because of my own wretchedness, I wonder many times, and I doubt many times, why do I even serve on a board here in Menahga? I have nothing to offer. I have nothing. There's others that would be much better suited. But I thank God. He knows better than I do. And I thank God that
This moment at this time that he has placed me in the center of his kingdom. Away from the fringes and the edges where the snares and the ravaging wolves would be so close to me. And it worries me when
I know that and I feel that there's maybe some that don't understand or I would say rather maybe believe differently than I do and the way that the rest of God's kingdom believes and how it has been taught by the Holy Spirit in God's kingdom. And I hope and pray that
My words here haven't caused any offense to anybody, but that the words that have come have come in love. And I ask again for my own worries and doubts, can I have my many sins forgiven? Joe. You don't know? Yep, it's on now.
Of course, over the last several hours, mind has wandered all over the place. To go back to the question, I guess, and what brought to mind, I've had opportunity over the last few weeks to have some rather lengthy discussions
And one was with a dear friend that came up last weekend. And he was asking that what are some of these differences, or what could be some of these differences? And I related of my own story.
That having grown up and how I saw things as I was growing up and as a young man, the emphasis for care of the conscience was on having sins forgiven. The emphasis was not on believing.
That sins are forgiven. Rather, it's the action of the individual rather than the action of God. That came to a realization for me. It wasn't long before, as John mentioned earlier, before that MBMAC meeting years ago,
A couple years ago anyway, that the conscience is of that portion of Adam, that inheritance of Adam. When Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then came that natural law to man. And the conscience is of our fleshly portion.
And it is not of our salvation that we, as a fruit of faith, care for our conscience. But the care of our conscience is not our salvation, and that we cannot confuse the two. If we do, we are lost in our own work. I don't know if I clarified things or made them more muddy,
He asked, the friend I was visiting with, he asked, well, what's an easier way to say that? And I said, it's that simple, the difference between having sins forgiven and believing on the absolution. That the work is in the confession or the action of asking that sins be forgiven and not on the faith.
That they are forgiven. The other portion came to mind in thinking about this. This comes from 1 Peter 3:21. The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us. Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
And it isn't that action of putting away the flesh that saves us, but the answer of a good conscience through the resurrection of Christ. Continuing on, a few of my other thoughts and some of these events that have taken place between disinvitations and whatnot. It's a lack of
Communication both directions, it seems, has been open to my eyes here. The result of a lack of communications both directions has also led us to a lack of proper perspective as to how each other might see these things.
Because the communication was not there to begin with, that the wrong message was received. And in turn, the wrong message again was delivered in return. I guess that's all I have for now.
Okay, the hour is getting late. Should we order bacon and eggs, or should we, do we have more to continue to visit about? I'm sure there is, or do we wanna schedule another meeting, or just let it lie for a while, or what's the thoughts? Randy, someone got the mic?
In listening to Joe's comments there, it kind of struck me that I haven't felt that the action of putting sin away is what saves us. I haven't gotten that feeling from visiting here today or visiting with anyone. It's faith that saves us. But how is faith strengthened?
It's by and through the gospel. The Bible reminds us to keep faith and good conscience. That baptismal covenant that we have all been blessed into when we were baptized, that's a promise to God that we would endeavor to keep faith and good conscience.
When we fall into sin, we don't fall out of that covenant, but we want to renew that promise to God by and through believing that precious gospel. I've never felt like the action of putting the sin away is what saves one. It's by believing. Jon Bloomquist.
I don't know if I'm getting old or tired or both. I had some thoughts there and now it kind of, the first thought kind of went by my mind. Now it came back. Good. With regard to Joe's comment about that statement, having, I've heard the same thing that Joe's referring to. And I understand that
Sometimes the way it's articulated, that's the way that some people have learned to articulate it. And I don't know if they're able to articulate it in any different way. But I understand because like Keith expressed, and I went through a brief period like that where I understood it in a wrong way.
When I was a young guy, and I remember very clearly the moment when it was like, you know, the lights went on. I was at one of those difficult meetings back in the 80s or late 70s. It could have been Wolf Lake Church. I was living with Glenn and Elmer out on the farm. And it was, you know, it was...
Difficult meeting, there were issues there and I was seated by the back wall and the meeting's ending and I'm sitting there thinking, doesn't anybody see what's troubling me? And I remember Peter Nevala took a speaking turn and he said, you know, I'm concerned that we are losing sight of the fact
They were saved by faith. And it just really struck me. I remember I went home sitting in the bedroom there at the farm that was above the living room. Sitting on the edge of my bed, I grabbed the By Faith book. And we often talk about Luther's explanation of the third article of the Creed. But that night,
I went to his explanation of the second article of the Creed. It gave me a lot of comfort. I realized, you know, I can't undo what Christ has done. I can't change it. My confession has no bearing on that at all. I just need to be able to believe it. And that's where the emphasis needs to be in
Confession is on the believing of it. But if you go back and look, you'll find, just like Keith mentioned, sometimes, you know, I've heard this issue that Joe's referring to, and I've heard criticism, of course, of teaching in the past,
And we have this, it's the history, it's the story of God's kingdom. The spirit of God teaches in the congregation and it wars against the wrong understandings that come up. And that was true back then and after the heresy. There was a reaction to that extreme leniency of the heresy. But then it took time to address and correct some of that
Overreaction, maybe. And there are maybe those who have that kind of thought still. And there are others, I think, who they have the same understanding that I do, but that's the way they've learned to express it. But I haven't been greatly troubled by that because when they hear the right explanation and the emphasis in the right place, they haven't warred against that. They say, yeah, that's right.
That's how I believe. But the point that Joe made, yeah, that's been there and we hear it from time to time still. But it's not the understanding and the line that we follow in God's kingdom. We believe that we're saved by believing the gospel, not by confessing our sins.
I don't have to in the sense that it's a requirement. I have to in the sense that my heart needs it. My faith needs it. And actually the brothers here will tell you we were discussing this issue and this came up in a board meeting a few months ago and one brother expressed himself maybe in terms similar to that and I
I just said, guys, you know, we really, I don't know, I probably didn't say it that nice, you know, kind of abrupt sometimes. You have to be careful about how you express that. And I know the brother, he believes the same way that I do, but the way that he expressed it could be understood as Joe perceived. And I don't think that we have to ignore or deny the fact
You know, that issue has been there, and it's been one that we've had to battle against all these years. And sometimes it still may be expressed in a way, we could put it this way, it could be expressed more clearly in a way that is not possible to understand incorrectly. But that's a high threshold to be able
To state something in a way that it can't be misunderstood. As far as going forward goes, you know, I had a conversation with a dear brother the other day who was thinking of this meeting. How do we go forward? You know, we have this scheduling issue. The minute that we heard about the decision that Cokato made, we knew that
Menahga and every other congregation where these brothers are scheduled and there's some questions that are going to be faced with this question. What do we do now? And, you know, like I've shared with the Cokato brothers, was it wise or unwise? I guess you can debate that.
I didn't have any wisdom to answer that question. I don't know. I know the concern was sincere, and I think the concern has been right. It didn't create the situation that exists now. It pretty publicly acknowledged it, though. So it's there. What do we do now?
And this brother said that, and I've shared kind of how we've been thinking about this situation in general. In our board, we'd like to continue to discuss things. But as far as the schedule goes, he thought, and I think it's a wise thought, and I hope your brothers from Wolf Lake will consider this,
As long as there is this situation in which there's some question or cloud that you would say, you know what, maybe it's wiser. Better for us, better for Phil and Darwin and everybody involved that let's keep them home for now. Let's not expect them to go and serve elsewhere and let's try to resolve these questions.
And I guess that's up to you, how you want to approach that. You know, if you said, you know, John, we don't want you to come to Wolf Lake, I'm not going to take offense at that. But I think you also ought to consider the fact that we don't, and again, that's your decision,
I don't think you want to create the impression that this is kind of like a tit for a tat. That, okay, you're not going to call our speakers, we're not going to call yours. And you need to give that some thought. Me personally, if I don't have to serve, it's not going to, I think, create any burden for me.
As a speaker looked at it in that way that I have any right or privilege to serve somewhere. My own faith, my reputation are not based on that and neither do I view it that me and my faith and my understanding
Is something that has to do with my congregation board or my congregation. I have to admit I've actually been a little bit surprised like going back to Darwin's sermon at kind of the way that the approach from Wolf Lake was about that, that kind of rally around
Darwin. It wasn't, it was a question of one sermon. And some words are understanding. Not that, you know, he's not believing or something. So, that whole approach, I have to say, to me, seemed a little bit, maybe,
Likewise, now in this case, it's not a condemnation of either them or the Wolf Lake congregation. So, I guess, you know, in the end, it's up to you guys, your board, and maybe even more importantly, I guess it's up to Phil and Darwin, you know, what
View they want to take of things. But that idea that that brother expressed to me seems like a pretty wise approach to the issue. And when I was talking with Phil earlier, I suggested to him that maybe some smaller meetings. I mentioned Phil and Roger and Darwin, for example.
Two or three other brothers from, you know, LLC or MNOG or whoever, we can sit down and we can have a dialogue. Not because I think that, for example, me or any two or three brothers, that we have the answers. But like I think Roger accurately mentioned, you know, or maybe it was Phil when we were talking, in these kinds of meetings, you can't have the same
It's a kind of back and forth dialogue. Some of us take long speaking turns and don't leave time for the rest of you and so on. Anyway, I really hope that we can have those kinds of discussions going forward.
No, I mean, we've already discussed a long time ago as a board. So I hope that didn't get in everybody's mind that we're going tit for tat. I mean, we accept all speakers. And we made that in Wolf Lake. So don't anybody get that in their mind. But the other thing is, yeah, I agree with John. Smaller discussions. Gary, I encourage you to go visit Phil. In fact, if you want to come for a weekend,
Stay at my place. Bring your wife. What I'm hearing is what Randy just said, what Al said. They said the same thing, I think, in my mind. That we're saved by grace, by faith, by the merit works of Christ. And nobody that I know is diminishing the gospel. It's there for us to use, and it makes it precious.
And we want to use it. That desire would be there to use it. Not a command, but a desire. If you're believing correctly, you would have that desire. But we're going to cut this short, right, Mark? But I would encourage smaller discussions, visit. But I want to state I do agree with Roger's comments.
Okay, Bruce, I just was visiting with Roger. What you said is not quite accurate. What? As far as speaker usage. When we decided we're going to, Menahga was not going to use Darwin and Phil until it was resolved, our scheduler, which is Larry, and your scheduler, which is Joe, they worked together. Yep. And Larry brought it to Joe and said he's going to make his own, and Joe said, well, then we won't use Menahga for those two months either.
So that's just the way it was. Okay, that's just what Larry told me. It was just not using. And I believe I've asked Menahga speakers and none of them are scheduled for January or February, correct? Okay.
But yeah, that's just what I was told, so I just want to make a correction. Well, I have to say, Josh, you were looking at me when you said that you fear that you don't believe the same as some of us. And I guess I did a lot of talking, so...
If you were talking about me, I would like a little more enlightenment. I guess I don't want to leave this meeting with that.
My heart has still been left unsettled and I guess I still have questions. And I'm trying to think how to put this into words. Sometimes I struggle to put a feeling or a thought into words,
It seems like, and like I stated earlier, you know, maybe it's just the way that we as individuals personally, the way that we're made up, the way our minds work, the way our attributes are, maybe the way that we form our sentences and our words, maybe that's all that my feeling is and I'm misunderstanding or misinterpreting the way that you
I believe specifically I would say on this matter of forgiveness and unforgiveness and I think some other brothers have asked questions of clarification and I don't know if their hearts have been settled with the answers but it seems to me that at least in my mind the way that I'm understanding and interpreting what you're saying is
That you have no sin. And maybe, there again, I don't want to misunderstand and I guess that's why I brought the thought and the feeling and I think it goes back to, I think where the worry in my heart really began was a few years ago when you had taken a turn to speak openly and freely at the MBMAC meeting.
Listening remotely at that point, and if I'm remembering correctly, during that speech you had said that you live of the spirit and not of the flesh, that your flesh is sinful and there's nothing that you can do about it, but it doesn't pay to worry about that. If we worry about the flesh, which will return to the earth,
Then we're going to get bogged down, which I agree with, but it seemed as if at least I got the feeling in my heart that there was this emphasis that I can do nothing about sin, that I live purely of the Spirit, and if I live purely of the Spirit, I don't have to worry about sin. And to me, and I guess the reason it troubles me is that
From my own experience in my life, as I relayed earlier, when I haven't taken care of my sins, I've left God's kingdom. And to me, daily, and which is what I've felt from many of the speeches that my heart has agreed with when they've spoken about how they believe on a matter of sin and care of conscience and the necessity and the power
For me personally, I need that gospel often. That I find that my flesh is intertwined like this in my body with the spirit in a constant battle. And I do not have the strength or enough faith and the strength in my faith
To be able to separate those two. That's my personal experience and my personal battle. I cannot separate them. But what I can do is I can use those tools and those gifts that the Heavenly Father has given us and given to me, I feel personally, to be able to use those gifts of
Of confession, those gifts of believing escorts, who in them, through the Holy Spirit, resides the Grace Altar, that I'm able to take care of those matters. And what I hear, and it's, yes, Al, I would say that much of that was directed at you because it's so
Near and dear and we've been close for so many years. And I have been very, very happy that you've been open and free. And sometimes I think that you've had much more strength to be able to speak than I have. And I look around a lot of times and I listen to the way that other individuals are able to articulate their thoughts and seem to think so freely flow from them and then I begin to worry that
Well, if I open my mouth, I'm gonna cause confusion and I don't want that, but I also feel that if I don't speak, then if I'm incorrect, I can never be corrected if I don't speak. But my feeling has been, and again, this is my interpretation of many speeches from different individuals that it seems as though
And maybe Tommi's explanation earlier of where the emphasis is placed, maybe that's the feeling, but it seems as if the care of conscience, the preaching of the gospel, the confession of our sins, all of these things that have been given, it seems as if there's a bit of a diminishment on that part. And if I'm wrong,
I sincerely desire to be corrected. I want those things settled in my heart. If I don't have to worry about something, I don't want to have to worry about it. But this is the feeling that I've had, that these things, there's been a diminishment in some on those matters, and such an overemphasis on just believing.
I guess as Joe had spoke earlier about the matter of the care of conscience and specifically pertaining to having to have your sins forgiven and believing your sins forgiven. And the thought came to my mind, I've got a pretty simple mind and sometimes I drag up these analogies that seem to be a little odd or far-fetched and maybe this one is another one of those, but I've had this thought
Over time that this faith is like a vehicle. It's our vehicle to heaven. At least in my mind then I could understand it maybe that way. That faith is our vehicle to reach heaven. And what do we do to care for that faith? What would we do with our vehicle that we rely on to transport us from one destination to another? Don't we have these different
Things that we do that we put gas in there. We change the oil. We do these different things to help make sure that that vehicle is cared for and that it's reliable and that it will bring us to our ultimate destination. And I guess I've thought about that, you know, if we neglect these different gifts and
Tools that God has given us to be able to use. Then what will happen that eventually that vehicle will no longer be a reliable vehicle. At least that's been my experience in my life. I don't have a lot of knowledge or understanding of scripture and I rely heavily on the understanding of others in God's kingdom that God has given understanding to.
So I guess that's my thoughts, and I don't know if that's clarified or if that's what you're hoping to hear or if that was what you're hoping for, Al. No, I think that it does clarify what you were asking. I will read then from Hebrews 12:1 and 2. This should explain exactly what I'm talking about, focusing.
On our Savior rather than on our endeavor. Wherefore, seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
And is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Looking to Jesus. That's the entire point. Exactly. And what are you doing? You're turning away from these weights that are easily besetting us. And you're turning toward Christ. That's what it said there.
Would you look and read this again? You know, I do exactly what you're saying. I lay aside every weight. And I focus on Christ. And I'm going to tell you then, the second aspect of this Josh did bring up, how do we then make it to heaven? And this is in 1 Peter 1:3 through 5.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. There's nothing we're doing here.
God keeps us. It's by grace through faith. Who's next or what do we want to
George, bring the mic. Maybe I'll read you this message that somebody in
The congregation sent to me earlier this week. God's peace, George. Go Saturday up north lighthearted and with the assurance that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide in all things. Surely the prayers of the believers are with you and the others there. Hopefully those in error can humble themselves and be corrected. We all are so prone to pride.
But still hope to be kept humble and obedient to the care and the rebuke of the congregation, even when our error is unclear or apparent unto us. And then he quoted some portions of the scriptures, which I'll read. First one's from Exodus. Now therefore go, and I will be thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. And then three references from the words of Jesus from the Gospels.
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. And when they bring you up unto the synagogues and unto the magistrates and powers, take no thought how or what things ye shall answer or what ye shall say, for the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
And then last, this portion which will listen. But when they shall lead you and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate, but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye. For it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. I have to say it's been good for me to be here.
My heart has rejoiced at many, many of the comments of the dear brothers here, but also I have been very troubled here this afternoon. And I pray to God that he opens these matters onto us, every one of us, so that we will one day dwell eternally in heaven. And all I can say is the teachings of
From the Bible, hold faith, you're right, and a good conscience. The endeavor is so important in our life of faith. Without the endeavor, we wouldn't be in living faith. And can I yet again hear my, for my many doubts and sins, can I believe all my sins forgiven?
And also, if there's any word that has offended, can I have that forgiven too? Okay, how should we conclude? Should we, do we want
Some individual meetings, some smaller meetings that hopefully would continue to take place. Do we want to schedule any meetings? As far as the audio recordings, if anyone wants them, the chairman can get in touch with me and we'll try to get you them. The minutes, we will send out to the chairman of the congregations at some point when they get them finalized.
As far as additional meetings, what's the thoughts? Or just leave it open. Gary. Yeah, just thinking
I think it would be good to have future scheduled meetings, you know, and maybe we even set those dates today, then we can all plan for those or try to plan for those. To me, I think, this is maybe me personally, I think we do have two, there's probably more, but significant questions that are still left unanswered here. I mean, one, maybe it boils down to one, and it's all the
You know, with the concern and the confusion and inviting speakers, how do we go forward and handle this? I mean, to be clear, I don't think this scheduling is saying that a speaker is not believing or not in faith, but I think we all have to admit there's still questions and concerns on the table. I can hear it in the speeches all around the room. So my thought is that we need to set some meetings and continue this
And be open with each other. I'm certainly fine with individual small meetings in between these larger meetings, but that's my thought. George. I'm kind of thinking that maybe smaller meetings maybe might be beneficial.
Certainly Menahga, Menahga and Wolf Lake and possibly some LLC brothers. But you guys decide that. I don't, I don't, Roger from Wolf Lake.
I don't have any thoughts either way as to additional meetings, but for those that were, obviously most of you were not there. But at the conclusion of the chairman's meeting, the thought at the end of it was that a national meeting of some sort would be called. And I don't know if anything, does anybody know anything about that?
Adrian had called me and said that he would take that up in his capacity, or how did it go, Mark? He kind of said that he'd kind of start on it, or get the ball rolling, or I don't know what the terms... Yeah, we knew none of those things on the... The chairmen didn't know anything about that apparatus, or whatever you want to call it.
Do you know, does anybody know if Adrian has, obviously the LLC guys have left. Is there any knowledge? I have none. I guess that issue is like it's out there on the radar. I think it was mentioned earlier today. I personally think
And I think that there are probably quite a few other brothers that are of the same mind that it seems a little bit premature at this point. Personally, I would hope that that wouldn't become a necessity. We have, however, one, we have an annual meeting every year. We have a board member's workshop coming up as in April.
Which there would be a lot of national representation there. So we have some of those kinds of opportunities. There's speakers and elders meeting also in connection with summer services. So there's some of those possibilities. But I guess personally I feel like some smaller meetings might be very beneficial.
Those don't bear any fruit. I mean, you can always keep going larger and larger, I guess, if that's what it takes. But again, I would, just because of the opportunity to have dialogue and maybe understand
One another more thoroughly to start with some smaller discussions and then, like Gary said, you know, future meetings maybe based on what comes of some of those smaller meetings. And I don't mean just like informal, but let's plan that we'd like to have these individuals meet and get back to this group
And if it seems like there's no further progress, then maybe we have to have this group again. And if there's no progress there, then yeah, maybe you have to go to a larger meeting. But like we see today with a large meeting,
It's just not, you can't have quite the same kind of maybe dialogue. But I don't know that that's the solution. I hope and pray and I'm willing to try myself whatever it might be that would help to make some progress. And I mentioned to Phil, he seemed very receptive to that idea.
I don't know, you know, how Wolf Lake board, for example, would feel if, you know, Phil and Darwin and Roger, for example, and some, I think it would be nice to have some, at least somebody from LLC involved and some, you know, a couple of guys from Menahga maybe, but, you know, something like that.
That maybe can be worked out. I mean, we don't even know the possibilities of brothers who have left and who might be a part of that. I think that can be figured out. Yeah, I think some smaller discussions would be good going forward here. I don't know what
Where our board and speakers is at on this thought, and I know that they've struggled with that a little bit, but now that we've met here, you know, as brothers, you know, maybe it would be good that we would meet a little smaller with the Wolf Lake board and speakers, or maybe just a few of us get together, because I struggle a little bit still that, you know what, the Cokato board and the Wolf Lake board are not in unity.
On this matter. And I think also that Roger spoke very clearly his position of our decision in Cokato. And clearly, you know, he's spoken that we've sinned. And so, therefore, I think we should sit down and visit about these matters free and open. And so those would be my personal thoughts, not thoughts of my board, but personally my thoughts.
And I know it's been a burden that I've thought of much since we met there in Brainerd and this matter that, you know, have I sinned in these matters? And, you know, I don't know. But, you know what, I guess that's not important.
But what is important, if there are those that thought by our decision, I have sinned, I need to care for those matters. And so I would ask if you brothers could bless me for those. Okay, any final comments?
Any final comments by anyone? Don Lahti. I was just going to say that I came here to this meeting today being hopeful, but yet pessimistic. But I would say that
At least we have discussed it and we have, each one of us come to some feeling about the meeting. And I think, as you have decided, I think perhaps the small meetings would be the way to go to begin with. But for my own part, I feel my own lack of understanding on a lot of these matters and feel my own
Poorness and weakness of faith that could I yet believe all my sins forgiven? Could I also hear that gospel?
Mark Haataja. I would just like to speak my own, I guess my own Psalms. I sit here. It's been mentioned I've been asked to serve the congregation as a speaker. I come here today and I feel like I'm not in the right place. I've been a poor example.
I understand so little, but can you preach the gospel to me? You would all remember me and my family and carry us. I hope and pray that I can do the duties that I've been asked to do. Reino Kuoppola.
Mark, our heart rejoices that God's kingdom saw to add workers into the vineyard. You have definitely all our prayers and blessings. So trust in God. God will give you the words to speak. And if he doesn't, if we just say amen, we close the book.
Mark, I was thinking, as far as how we move forward, it seems like overall the general consensus is that maybe we would look at smaller discussions. But it doesn't seem like we've really necessarily settled on that, and I think it's been a long meeting, and I think each of us has a lot to digest. And I guess my recommendation would be that maybe we take this meeting and go back to our respective boards
Discuss there and have some time to ponder and reflect and think on this meeting and maybe things will become a little bit clearer in our own local board meetings as to how to proceed and then I think when we come to some sort of a thought as what might be a good way to proceed that then the chairman could
Visit amongst themselves and communicate amongst themselves and I think we can move forward. But then I think also that in the meantime we don't have to wait for a scheduled meeting but I think as many have mentioned that individual personal discussions should most definitely continue and I know I've been pretty poor in doing that myself and so I guess that instruction is probably for myself more than
Anybody that advice. So I guess that would be my recommendation that we would move to close the meeting and meet then again with our respective boards and discuss things again there. Anyone else? Joe, is that you? Oh, you don't want the mic?
So I guess if that's a second, then I should probably clarify the motion that maybe we would adjourn the meeting. Okay, there's a motion and a second on the floor. All in favor, aye. Opposed? Carried. We'll ask Steve Haataja for the closing prayer. At the conclusion of this meeting, I would want to, first of all,
Encourage each one of you, even if you have not had the strength to ask for yourself, uplift your heart and believe all of your sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood. Let us unite in closing prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you for this opportunity that we have had this day
To discuss those most important matters in our lives. And as we know we need to continue our discussions, we pray for your guidance. We pray for humble hearts. Cause each of us to search our own hearts. Dear Father, as we
Proceed from here. We ask that you would, through your Holy Spirit, lead and guide our thoughts and our actions. We know that you have here on this earth a living congregation. We know that it is united by one spirit, one faith.
And we know that the enemy wants nothing more than to attack and divide and cause division. And we know if he is successful that there will be casualties. We pray for your protection. We know that if you are with us, who can be against us? And so,
We humbly ask that we could all remain as children, that we would not become so confident in ourselves, that we would not want to listen to the voice of the Spirit that you offer here in the midst of your congregation. But as the Scriptures teach us,
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Let us all together say that Lord's benediction together.
The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, amen. Song 399 we'll close with.