Rockford Congregation Meeting, May 19, 2019

Hi. Whole house? Yeah. I'm not going up front. Oh, is it in the... Grace, mercy and peace be increased to us

Through the knowledge of the Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. Beginning of this afternoon's discussion, let us join our hearts together in prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, you have gathered your children together

Guide our thoughts and minds. You would give us the mind of Christ. That you would let us put the best construction on what anyone says. That you would give us humility too.

We would not have had no brothers and sisters that we could help each other on the way of faith. This is one of our prayers.

The first epistle of Paul to Timothy. The first chapter, verses 18 and 19. You can hear these words. This chariot had committed unto the son Timothy,

According to the prophecies which were knelt before on thee, and thought by them mightest war a good warfare, holding the faith and the good conscience, some having put away concerning faith hith.

May you please stop your brothers and sisters. Let's peace.

The devotion was coming at the beginning. It was set to be a presentation on the mystery of faith. I'm happy that it has been set as a devotion because my mind and thoughts have

Raised here and there. In fact, I guess if you could call it that, I've welcomed many servants to myself over the weeks. And what I've done,

Come to think, the thought of this may have taught that it would be important that we stop. I remember a dear brother from decades ago used to talk about the ABCs of faith.

I have to stop at eight. Those sermons that I've given to myself, given two-fold. One is a sermon of faith,

One is faith. Another is what is to live by faith. When I thought about that,

I thought about faith in this sense that it's a very short topic. I came into my thoughts in a very personal way. Five words. All honor to serve means to me

I am saved by faith. If the topic is salvation and how we are saved, the sermon is that short.

Saved by faith. Nothing else. Then I thought, this part of God's Word, and there are many other places, I believe, explain to us why God and His Word

You know, so many books, reading scriptures, and as to what is it to live by faith.

It pays for us to consider both of those, dear brothers and sisters, because when we formulate thoughts and minds and discussion, we're thinking about justification by faith. It's a different topic.

Versus living by faith. We heard this morning about righteousness of faith and righteousness of life. Same two topics. Again, if we speak about how we are saved, we are saved by faith. It's that short of a topic.

On the other hand, when we speak of living by faith, the reason why we speak of it is as our text says, that some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck. So if I know that I am saved by faith,

If there's anything that could cause shipwreck, isn't it worthwhile discussion to have it how we keep faith? I think that's the discussion that we have.

Another chapter talks about the same thing, about faith and good conscience. It actually speaks about the deacons, those who serve in the kingdom, and the same letter,

In the third chapter, in the ninth verse, eight verses talk about the office of bishops and deacons. But it says of them that they're holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. Faith is a mystery. And any of us who profess to understand faith

Other than that which we have learned from God's word, I would say it's a liar. That is why our faith is based on God's word. It is what we know of it. And scriptures tell us that holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. That's how the scriptures came

And of course, if we get to look at Old Testament scriptures and all that which came by the law, how we would be confused in this day and age, so foreign to our thinking. I would say that there's none here that follow the law that way which Old Testament scriptures tell us.

I guess if you think of that, the Jews perhaps still tried to follow the law that way. But when you think of that Old Testament belief, nevertheless there was a belief in the coming Messiah. We heard that this morning as well. How God sent his Son to redeem us from our sins.

And he fulfilled the law of Old Testament scriptures. And when we think about that, he was the perfect sacrifice. He was the beginning, the middle, and the end. He made the perfect sacrifice that all the sacrifices before him were null and void.

Because he sacrificed for their sins, and he sacrificed for those of his day, and he sacrificed himself for the sins of the whole world. Until this world ends is a perfect sacrifice. He paid the sin debt. In fact, when you look at the Old Testament scriptures,

It's like it takes the place of the sacrificial worship of the believers bringing those animals to sacrifice on behalf of their sins. New Testament scriptures testify that what happened when Jesus died and rose again was that the veil that would be more of the most holy was read in two. And we have access to the most holy where the mercies seek.

So the sacrifice no longer needs to be done. We don't need to do anything. We can't do anything. The perfect sacrifice was made. But it opened to us the mercy seed. The mercy seed did not go away. It's where the sprinkled blood of the animals were sprinkled upon.

This is where the sprinkled blood of the Lord Jesus was sprinkled in its fullest, in its most perfect way. As the New Testament writer tells us, that we can now approach the mercy seat in our time of need. It says that in the book of Hebrews, in the fourth chapter.

At the end of the chapter it says, For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was at all points tempted, like as we are at the throne of sin. Let us therefore come boldly on the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. So it goes back to the way I had thought about this over the weeks.

Like the egg of our faith, we are saved by faith, and all else is how do we keep faith? And the scriptures tell us that we have the mercy seat through which we can turn in time of need. It's not a once and done thing, dear brothers and sisters. It's not we only have a time of need once.

We heard that this morning, how it's an endeavor of faith. We fall short. But on the other hand, when we merge these two topics, brothers and sisters, it to me means this. I remember one brother explaining what he thought was the simplest way of explaining faith. As a traveler walking along a path and he's carrying a cap on his back,

And I guess if you start putting stones in that pack, it's a way to look at sin. And as we journey, there's sin that can gather in that pack. And we're still on the way of fate, aren't we? We're still traveling towards home. But we know, I know, I'm sure you know how the burdens of sin can accumulate and the weight gets heavy.

God has given us a way to take those stones out of our pack. And that is the gospel. It does wonderful things to us, dear brothers and sisters. It's not like each time we believe the gospel that we have to be out of faith first to believe it. But it removes the burdens that we have accumulated. It's the same thing as Jesus talks about washing the feet.

They were on the journey, but they have only needed to watch the feet. It's not that complicated, dear brothers and sisters. We live by faith. We own faith as a gift, not of ourselves, lest anyone boast. But we can keep faith. We can hold faith and a good conscience. The apostle puts those two together, holding faith, he says, and a good conscience.

Some, having put away concerning faith, have made shipwreck. And so the Apostle says that that's how the conscience relates to that. If we allow sin to accumulate and make it so that it doesn't bother us any longer, we can become shipwrecked. We can find ourselves in unbelief, not having the strength to believe.

And isn't that our goal, dear brothers and sisters, is to just stay in faith until the end? It's a model that it pays to teach our children, our grandchildren. It's a model for us to, as adults and parents and grandparents as well, to consider and hold dear to our hearts, to hold faith and a good conscience.

The old preachers used to say that faith is in keeping. That we want to keep faith. That's the endeavor. It's not like we just stop and just have faith. We're always on the endeavor. So faith is always in keeping. And all that we do as believers is meant for that.

So dear brothers and sisters, this afternoon is, I guess, that short of a sermon. Not that hard. Simple, all we need to do is believe. If we are believing, we will make it to the end of the journey. Gold and crown.

Please place your hands on your head. Because I want to make a fit of your brothers and sisters. I want to care for faith. Take the stones out of the pack. Put sin away as it attaches. Walk hand in hand with my brothers and sisters. Until that day when faith changes to sin. So to the

Don't worry to the fearful, to the doubting, to the sinner this afternoon. The sermon of faith can believe just as you are. But a burden's crest can believe your sins forgiven. In Jesus' name, precious blood,

I came here very doubtful and stressed. I wondered, can I hear the gospel? I want to believe together with you. In Jesus' name.

You gave our hopes, our fears, and served the public who are in doubt.

It is the righteousness of Christ, in virgins and divine. O come, all to life, a miracle made,

And before the throne, it is revealed the past and last, word of glory to all.

We have ever touched by the merits of our own. May Jesus always help us all to live by faith alone.

O Jesus Christ, we praise your name. You died and rose for us. We praise you for the righteousness you purchased

All to our discussion here this afternoon. We thought to open with a devotion as Rick had started, and then I'm going to try to summarize.

This is a discussion that happened at our annual meeting and also summarized some events that have happened since then until now and Doug Kesney will moderate. Go ahead.

My thoughts have been all over trying to prepare for this. I did record them here to bring some sense of organization to it. I'll just read through this and turn it to Doug from there. What our annual meeting discussion was really two topics that the congregation opted to continue discussing.

One of those was the ministers here in Rockford not being of one mind, and the other is asking the Finnish brothers to come help us here in Rockford. To recap topic one, I thought to start with reading the spiritual update that was posted in the annual meeting, and that's really what prompted the discussion we had that day.

There have been several congregation presentations this past year that have provided a forum for the congregation to speak about the topics that are causing the restlessness in God's kingdom today. Through these discussions, it's clear that there is a foreign message being brought forth by some. We need to continue discussing these matters in the congregation and amongst ourselves with humble and prayerful hearts, listening to what the Spirit teaches through the voices of the believers.

Despite these troubling times, the Board has been thankful that we have a common understanding of the matters being discussed, and thus are in complete unity. Sadly, we must also report that not all ministers in our congregation are of one mind, even after many discussions.

Dear brothers and sisters, the Board needs the congregation to direct on these matters. Trust that the will of God will be shown by the still, strong voice of the Holy Spirit that comes from within God's Kingdom.

The congregation have installed all board members and ministers with these roles, and thus each of us serves only at the beckoning of the congregation as a whole. During these difficult times, we ask for your prayers that God would keep us willing to serve, obedient in all things, and above all, in faith.

Apostle Paul in Ephesians instructs us, I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation for which ye are called, with all lowliness and meanness, without suffering, preparing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace. So it is from this summary in our board report that prompted much of the discussion at our annual meeting in March.

Those of you that were there recall that I went quite late. I took an action to schedule a time to continue that discussion. Thus, we're here today. In my own way, I want to try to summarize the thoughts that were expressed during the discussion that day. I have seen a working draft of the minutes, relatively detailed.

But the secretary and the proofreaders have not finalized that report, so I want to avoid getting into specific comments because we are taking them out of context and making something that wasn't intended by the speaker. I'll simply just try to summarize the themes that were apparent in that discussion.

Most of all, Matt Skoog agreed that the most important matter for our congregation to discuss was that of not having unity among our ministers. I would express that just because the board was aligned, it did not necessarily mean it is correct in its understanding and wonders, is the Holy Spirit truly guiding the board?

The voice was heard that the board was looking for power and control and why that was causing issues. Some comments conveyed how it has been a mystery of what the exact issues are because the conversation keeps changing. Some noted that there have been a change among some ministers. It seems to center around how we understand forgiveness, justification of faith, confession.

There was a sentiment expressed that there is low-mindedness being preached in our congregation. Some expressed a concern about going by feelings and using this to justify a position on something without being able to directly tie it to God's word. One of our ministers took a speaking turn

He said that when meeting the board report, stating that not all ministers were of one mind, he wondered if it was referring to him, as discussion had ensued, really in response to Craig's speech at that time. The congregation responded after that. Some stated how they had never been in trouble by Craig's speeches or sermons.

Others stated that they have been troubled by things he has said in private and in public. Some asked Craig specifically about certain matters in which he responded. There were comments that relayed their support for the work that the board is doing, remembering us and our work. Some stated their concerns about the congregations of disinvited ministers, while others expressed that they trust the Holy Spirit guided those decisions.

In the matter of forgiveness, different thoughts were heard. I can't very well summarize some of the speeches. Some seem to imply that the gospel of the forgiveness of sins is simply assurance and has no cleansing power. I'll simply state how I believe on this matter.

The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died on the cross to atone for the sins of the world. In Hebrews 10, of course there's many Bible portions that speak of this, but in Hebrews 10 it says, By the which we will, we are all sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Yes, this is me. I believe on this. I believe we fall into sin and thought and deed every day, and this sin is what defiles our conscience. We do not wash those sins away that trouble our conscience. The blood of the Lamb, eventually saint, will have a victory by separating us from God, thus we move in our sacred faith.

How I was taught in Sunday school, how I was taught in my home congregation, how I believe today, how I want to teach my children. On the matter of confession, some felt there were perhaps too much emphasis being placed on confession and even alluded to having been raised with the doctrine of confession. Again, on this matter, I'll simply state all I believe. Confession is a great privilege. There's no demand that we use it.

God already knows what our sins are, but he certainly does not need us to confess them. It's a gift for us to use as a means to receive absolution, forgiveness for those sins that trouble us. We should use it as often as we need to for the benefit of keeping faith in our conscience. That is that portion of it. This next piece is speaking help from Finland.

It was suggested that we invite brothers from Finland to come to Rockford and help us discuss these issues. In fact, there was a motion that was put on the floor, it was unsecunded, and after some discussion, it was withdrawn, and here's why it was withdrawn. Some had asked about how this would actually play out, what was to happen, who would come and who wouldn't.

From Finland, what do you feel? Do you have any answers? Do you feel comfortable with all this to speak? There was another comment that in 2018, we had finished ministers in Rockford on three different occasions. Many discussed our current matters with these brothers. So in light of not having a clear plan on how this would work, the motion was withdrawn with the request to have more discussion

That was summarizing the hand-competing discussion itself. So now this next part here is what's happened since then. There have been many more discussions on these matters, and mostly in small groups. I personally have had many visits. I suppose that I have a common understanding of these matters, but the visits are easy and reassuring.

Those of you who do not have to come by understanding that this is a flying series. On April 13th, there was a nationwide board members and ministers workshop in Monticello. I had previously run the recap of that workshop and it was put together by the LLC. For the sake of this meeting, I can really hear again

It's actually brought to my attention that I misspoke when I read that summary the first time, so I'll try to be more accurate this time. I'm not going to read the whole thing. I'm going to cut a couple of paragraphs out here and bring everybody who possibly hasn't heard that summary yet. It merits being for us here today.

Phoenix Congregation Pastor Harri Vähäjylkkä got a cafe presentation entitled, Holy Spirit in the Congregation of God. The presentation focuses on the many ways in which the Holy Spirit works among believers in the congregation. The Holy Spirit is that which begets faith, and only through God's Spirit can we attain righteousness.

Through faith we sense the presence and voice of the Holy Spirit which also opens our eyes to see the beauty of God's congregation and effects love and one-mindedness among believers. The Holy Spirit is the source of grace gifts with which we together build the congregation. We learn from the revelation of God in the Bible that it is only through the Holy Spirit that we are given to understand the written word.

God's Spirit gives ears to hear the calling voice of the Good Shepherd. It allows us to hear His voice in our heart and conscience. The Holy Spirit brings forth good fruits in all in whom it dwells. First of these fruits is love. God's children are known by their love for one another. They nurture this mutual love through the power of the Spirit.

Following the presentation, many workshop participants spoke of how they had experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in their own lives. The main message of these speeches was that the mystery of faith is revealed to us only through the Holy Spirit, not through Jesus. Faith does not come through understanding, but rather understanding comes through faith.

Many noted how the presentation and also other speaking interns voiced what they also believed. Their hearts said, Amen. In some speeches of workshop participants, another voice was heard. Positions were stated that have caused undress on American night. Workshop participants from all areas of North America were able to hear these discussions and must realize for themselves how unity has been tried in recent times.

Again, going on what has transpired since our annual meeting, it was that, especially in Monticello and here in Rockford, we have also had the opportunity to visit with Craig directly. I've spoken with him one-on-one. We also visited with him at our main board meeting that she attended. Craig was scheduled to go on a mission trip to Ecuador.

Due to these questions hovering in our congregation, the board had requested that Craig not serve outside of Rockford until the congregation can have more discussion on this. Craig agreed to respect this request. He also stated that he did not agree that it was the right decision. And I state this only not in the sense of exposing any relative from the standpoint that if the board was wrong to ask Craig this,

If you want to be corrected on that, hear from the congregation on that. Since the board took this action, I personally have heard comments that I want to share with the congregation here. The board does not have the right to make this decision. This was the wrong decision. The board needs to own this.

I've not seen any doctrinal issues with his speaking. These voices I've heard of are from people that do not want to hear anything from the Bible that hasn't been spoken of in the past 20 years, or as a way of mourning over the congregation. There's also been many voices of encouragement and support to hear the calling of some of the messages that come to us.

So to conclude this introduction to today's discussion, I would say this. Clearly there are different thoughts in the congregation regarding these matters, regarding our congregation ministers specifically.

Some in the congregation have encouraged that the board should take a position or bring a recommendation to the congregation in regard to Craig. Others have said the board should not even be discussing these matters with Craig specifically because it's not about Craig, it's about his issues. Beyond asking Craig to not serve outside of Rockford until the congregation can visit further, we do not have an official recommendation from the board.

Having said this, we recognize that this situation puts Craig in an awkward spot. It would be good if the congregation today could advise him to either continue to just freely serve in God's kingdom, wherever he may be called, or ask him for us to speak. Congregation, please. Board members, congregation ministers, all congregation members here are free to express their thoughts today.

Since this discussion is a continuation of our congregation annual meeting, recognizing that there are many here from other congregations, I ask the moderator just to prioritize the speaking terms for our members, not being that others request a turn, but simply to hear from our congregation members.

There'd be more to say, I guess, but I wanted to leave it, leave the discussion in the hands of the congregation at this point. We've got open mouths and ears. We have a song by Dougie. Do you want a song? If you want to collect your thoughts.

Just go into it. A good question would be, what was the first place around here? Explain it. At Monticello? Yeah. No, exactly. Exactly.

You know, there's only two ways to do it, and I would guess wrong. Thanks for the introduction here, and perhaps some direction to the discussion. I too, knowing that

This could be a rather, perhaps, perhaps I'll be surprised if it won't be, but a rather trying discussion. I thought I too have had some thoughts and doubts even in my ability to moderate it. I would just be started if you just be patient for me in case I say something wrong or don't call the right person at the right time.

As the Chair mentioned, this is a continuation of our annual meeting, and there's many people here, and I'll be completely honest with you, I don't even know necessarily everyone who is a member who isn't

Thankfully, Lars and Paul took that treasurer's membership job from me a few years ago, and my amnesia has kind of kicked in. So maybe to make that a little bit easier, you know, I guess, your member or not, if we could perhaps try and get some discussion from the members initially, and I'll kind of trust that you'll know who you are, who you aren't, and maybe

If you're not, give any members an opportunity. I do have, I'm gonna try and write some names down as people raise their hands, but I'll, again, be honest. I don't know everyone's name like maybe I did 25 years ago, but I'll do my best on that. It's now about 3.53. There is a meal prepared that'll be served from five until seven.

And we will not break for that meal, however, as we've done in the past, feel free to go and help yourself during that time. I assume that hasn't changed, right? So, with that, perhaps I'll open it up to the floor and whoever might have it will be coming to get us started and then we'll go.

Oh, maybe this won't be as hard as I thought. Maybe it'll be harder. Oh, and the back there's killed.

Oh, Rand will be passing the mic around. I probably shouldn't have mentioned that, too. So, the mic will be brought to you. It's up here. Kind of jotting down some notes before coming here. It's Joe. Yeah. It's hard to follow.

I'll share just some of my general thoughts about this current condition.

With respect to [faith] in general, I've heard this kind of sentiment lately that some have now become wise, maybe suggesting that they become wise in themselves. I thought, well, what does a person mean when somebody is becoming maybe too wise?

My feeling in general is that to become knowledgeable of the Scripture, which is the Word of God, and Luther and Laestadius, for example, does not mean that a person would become wise in themselves. Apostle Paul, for example, gave this kind of advice to his young coworker, Timothy,

His second letter, third chapter, he says, Yea, and all men that live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

An evil man and seducer shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, being deceived. Then he says, but continue thou in those things which thou hast learned and been assured of, knowing from whom they have been learned of. So what was he referring to? Well, he explains it further. He says that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures.

Which are able to make wise unto salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus, which is generally the thought that occurred in our opening devotion. At the end of this chapter that Craig used for his text this morning, I can't refer to this specifically, but 2 Peter, the first chapter, again referring to the Word of God,

It says, or Peter writes it this way, we have also a more sure word of prophecy. Where unto, then he gives this advice, where unto you do well and take heed as a light shining in a dark place until the day dawn and the star rise in their hearts.

Knowing first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not of old by the will of man, but by holy men of God, spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, referring to the apostles and the prophets as they penned the Word of God, as we know today. Great as many times referred to,

The works of a scholar, Luther perhaps more than a scholar, but I've thought about that in general. I think over my lifetime, I've asked myself this question, how much do I really know about Luther and the scholars?

Our name represents these two individuals, the name of our church, and I think over my lifetime I've never really known that much about what they really taught. Luther, of course, is written in law, and it's hard to read all of his writings because there's so much of it.

In general, you think about Laestadius too, for example, at the time it was brought to my attention when someone had asked me, well, you say you're a Laestadian Lutheran, well, what does that really mean? For example, Laestadius.

By weak explanation with him, I didn't feel like we did justice, and I thought it would probably be worthwhile for me to learn more about the background of the studies and what we represented.

I think about Craig. There's been some questions about his service. And he has, especially at the annual meeting he expressed how he's very willing to have and happy to visit with anybody that has questions.

I've had multiple discussions with Frank and I always felt very comfortable with the discussions that I've had with him. You see, he's a person that I feel I can share something with or pose a question to him that maybe I wouldn't dare ask others of them because of the reaction that I might get from them.

So, again, my feeling towards Craig and his interest in studying the Word of God and studying the background of Luther and then, for me, day later, then heartwarming and refreshing. I was reading through the, I guess, the summary on the LLC website about the joint discussions, and I appreciated this comment here.

It says about the discussions following the presentation, it was noted at these times that it is good to discuss the faith of God, which I fully support. No one has been given all the gifts. It is important for God's children at this time to gather and discuss.

I feel like, especially in these last few years, that we are in a time of learning, and perhaps we can take the advice of .

So, I guess this message from the Apostle Paul to Romans was kind of written by heart, I guess, based on, you know, you think about the time that we've lived, many, many years of peace, relative peace, you might say, and when we live in that kind of time period, it's easy for us to get

Lacks of days ago, we would say. So Paul gives this kind of advice, I guess, he was thinking about, that he described to that thought. And he said, in this way, this is in the 13th chapter of Romans.

Beginning with the 11th verse, it says, that knowing the time that now is high time to awake us, for our salvation is nearer than we believed. Night is far spent, day is at hand.

Let us cast out, therefore, the works of darkness, and let us put on the ardent light. So those, I said, being into that, that the works of darkness are more than just the gross sins that we are familiar with.

But also the sins of the left and the sins of the right. And he says, let us walk honestly as in the day, not in rioting or drunkenness, not in chambering or wantonness, not in strife or in things. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its lust.

Gary had his hand up over here. Way over here. Should have warned you to come around the other side. About there.

First I want to point out the teaching by Luther which is also stated in the bylaws of the church.

And that is that all teachers and teachings are to be verified, judged, evaluated with the Word of God. Now in trying times like we're living, Jesus Christ himself says that I am the way, the truth, and the life. And I feel that we

Together, we have the desire to search for the truth. Search for the truth in the scriptures. I think that should be our top priority in answering the questions that we're dealing with in the time that we're living. Just a few words about

Faith and the Endeavor in this, which is mostly the Endeavor. Rick pointed out that we're saved by faith alone. There is also the Endeavor that goes into play.

There are two sides to the endeavor. On the one hand, the believer can do nothing but reserve his righteousness. God grants faith, holds it with his word and his sacraments, and lightens it for trials. Thus, the endeavor of faith is the work of God in us, not our own. On the other hand, the battle, the believer faces, is real.

Coming under the power of sin and losing faith are real possibilities. As long as the person has faith, the effect of it causes love for God in himself, causes hunger and thirst for the Word of God, gives the desire to battle against sin to preserve a good conscience. Just a...

Another one here that talks about confession. Actually, the topic that was initially set for this day was the mystery of faith, and this one kind of touches on that as well, as it connects it to confession. There are many paradoxes and mysteries which are a part of the faith.

And which cannot be understood of the carnal mind. Caring for the conscience is important, but it cannot become the foundation of salvation. On the other hand, faith, which rejects the endeavor of a good conscience, leads one to becoming shipwrecked.

This is a question of obedience and faith, which often contradicts human understanding. Words of Jesus become true without being and do nothing. Can I say something? Sure, go ahead. I have senses from gathering thoughts about

I feel a lot of fear and lack of real anxiety in this room. And I thought that I had never thought that I had to come to church to be fearful. I thought that, hey, there's no fear. And it's not fear of Jesus, but fear to be here, fear of being judged.

And I think that we should really just talk about matters. If you think about, like Craig, we should not put spotlights on any person, but talk about the matters we have. There's other speakers here where we could put them spotlights and find same things, confusion, smoke, appealing.

If you think about it, if people ask what's in your mind, what are the questions you're wondering? At least this is Talk About Matters. It doesn't help to eliminate people when you think, okay, that's a reason for this. There's no people. Here, we are all involved.

We all can make ownership about the situation because we are all guilty. Only God can lead us. No person can be so important that it's one person's fault.

We have to put our trust in God. And if we have questions, we can ask. And we will find answers. But according to the Bible, I think we should forget all our feelings. We might have bad feelings towards each other. And forget those. Let's pause quickly.

What Bible teaches. This morning I was listening to a whole sermon and that was such a topic today, this year of faith. And I was so precious, God gave me words. And I don't think that we should ever put anybody in this congregation to the spot and start doubting a person's faith or ability to

To be obedient with God's word. I think that everybody should bring their things when they are wandering up and we can discuss those matters and God will lead the way and we can stay together. Grant, we're here with Bill. Bill Keranen.

First I just want to thank [Craig] for that opening presentation. I thought that was really, for me it was really nice to hear and felt like, I hoped that everyone would say amen to that and this is how we believe.

And the other kind of question I have is, and Jeremy has read a couple of times this review of the meeting in Monticello, read that here in front of the congregation, and they all see it put out there, and in that review it said that there was a different voice heard in Monticello. I wonder if somebody could tell us what was that different voice?

Thanks Bill. Danny, back here. First of all, for all my sons and daughters, I want you to hear the gospel. It also tells you that Jesus is a person.

Jer asked the congregation to please speak what they're thinking. I have to agree with the board. I would like to see Craig step down and listen on the bench. There's lots of concern, and his savior has died, so just listen to what the congregation has to say, because we all want to get to heaven.

I predict that she'd do this. Over to your, uh, um, drop horizon.

Questions? Maybe questions and then a story. It seems like we keep hearing of all these matters. I don't want to use the word vague, but vague comes to mind. I guess if we can

If we have a discussion, we should at least have somebody here who can specify what we're discussing. There's math versus plural, more than one. If I go look for that, it's going to be between the reds and the reds. We can visualize at the top.

Then I have a story. At my house I have these totals. All my junk throughout the years. I found a cassette tape in there a few weeks ago. It was written by a left-handed person, and not possible, but my memory serves me correctly.

Kevin Elstrom sent it to me. Almost 16 years ago today, but it was on the third of this month, 16 years ago, there was a sermon given by Rod Nicola. He sat out front there. The cassette tape was mailed to me

I listened to it, I don't know how many times, but then it went into storage and a couple weeks ago it came back to daylight. I don't have a tape player at my house, but there's one in the car. I put it in the car, and the first words that came out of the speakers, I didn't even know what

What the speaker has put, and I heard brought in. He was talking about our robe of righteousness and how clean and pure and white it is because it's been washed by Christ's blood. So, I'm not really a big sermon person, but I had to get realigned and listen to that again. And I agree with that. And the reason I bring it up is

Perhaps that's one of these matters. I know there's been many conversations with other congregations about that. This psalm we sang today, Hymn 289, I can't think of anything more. I just recommend that we read that. But then on another note,

Another part of the sermon I heard that I listened to on that cassette tape. And maybe that's why I made the statement here a year or so ahead of discussion when we were talking about the third article of the creed that starts out, I believe. For me, I do. And I said period.

And that's true today, that as a believer, the most important thing for me, or for Moses, to believe. And as Rod related his sermon, Peter, some or another, versus the ones before, referring to the elders. He was my elder then, and he's still my elder today. And another part of the sermon here referred to the workers working a 12-hour day for a penny.

Motives. The workers worked all day, got a penny, and the workers that showed up at the 11th hour got a penny. He said, those that have lived 99 years and believed, and those that have lived nine minutes and just believed, are of equal value to God. So I resort back again to my statement that believe, period.

If anybody here, if I've heard second, third hand then, you've perhaps scratched your heads a little bit about that. I'd encourage you to, myself, come back to me rather than other people. I just think that we can solve a lot by going to each other versus others.

We have certainly been, I'd like to know, what are we discussing? There are certainly items, we have specific items, and then we can actually make some progress. I think that you're trying to summarize where we're at today, the continuation of

The discussion that was there, some of the activities that have taken place, and then some of the, not specifically about the, yes, that's Victoria, okay, but the mission trip that Craig was supposed to go on in the

The report may not have handled that, and some of the feedback we couldn't get inside. I thought those were some of the topics that were important.

Okay, first of all, I'm really nervous and afraid, but I really hope today, when I left the church, that people will be with me today, because I was really touched by [Craig's] sermon, and that maybe we could all say, you know what, we're all sinners. Every one of us has spoken correctly, have had a wrong understanding,

And so, I was hoping that would happen. And I just feel like we are all sinners. Nobody here is perfect. We all have. Somebody told me, I don't know how many years ago, actually, in Peter [Nevala's] book it says that, in Jesus' name and precious blood, actually, [Raattamaa and Laestadius came up with] those [words].

And I was just horrified. I thought, you know what? You are just so out of place. I can't talk to you anymore. You know? And I started reading Peter [Nevala's] book, and long ago, it was intent. They came up with those words, and I'm not saying that they aren't the most beautiful words in the world.

But those two men came up with those words because somebody was so distressed. Why are we fighting? And I have another question for Jeremy because I heard that there was a mother's camp on Spokane or Washington. I have no idea. But I heard that two people called and said what a beautiful camp it was.

And so why wasn't that talked about today? Is it only bad things that are talked about and not good things? And I feel like if I have an opinion that maybe a minister shouldn't be taken down, I don't feel like I'm in a wrong spirit. I just feel like that is my opinion, and I want to discuss that with somebody. And, um... Oh, and I know it was me trying to talk. But, um...

Years ago, I grew up with Laudie Huxle, one minister. So my whole life, I had this one minister concept. And I really thought all these ministers, like, why do we need this person? Why do we need that person? Like, I had Laudie Huxle.

And I really, actually probably the last maybe eight years, I thought, okay, you know what? God showed me that we need all these gifts, that there are many gifts, because there was a time when I was really troubled with teenager kids, and somebody gave a sermon, and it was so uplifting to me.

And I called one of my friends, I was having the same issues, and I said, listen to a sermon, it was so nice. She said, I don't know what you thought of that, but I didn't get anything out of that. So I feel like we need these gifts.

That maybe right now, like I love right now this presentation, that is how we'll play police. That there's been horrible rumors. It's rumors about me, you, or all guilty. We need to stop, have our sins forgiven, and get home. Tired of fighting.

Uh, Craig. Yeah, I don't came out there. Definitely out there, I'm all for you. Who's that? Craig? Well, I just want to address a couple of the thoughts that have come out. Just for myself personally,

Obviously, it's a lot of sitting here and hearing your name discussed. In some ways, it does remind me of when I was called a servant. I think you should discuss that. It's never a pleasant experience to have people discuss your name.

What better place than to sit here and have reopened discussion. And as I related at the annual meeting, it was, personally for me, I felt an air of freedom to confess my faith. This is what I believe. I don't know all the things people are hearing and what kind of

Light gets put on some of the things that I have expressed, but at the same time, for myself, I can't proclaim that I've always had the right words, the right understandings, that I've been able to always speak without offense, that I haven't said things that

I'm a human being, and I'm a faulty, sinful human being. So, first of all, I just, again, want to ask the congregation that can they still believe all of my faults and sins forgiven. So I don't want to portray or reject to the congregation that in any way I'm trying to

Preserve some kind of a position or a right to speak or a kind of address. As I said in the annual meeting, it's not my choice. It's not my choice whether I serve. It's not my choice whether I answer. It's up to the congregation. And that's based on what Jared wrote to the congregation.

The decision, I guess, in some sense, is for us today. I want to address, I guess, some of the issues that have been brought to me personally. I try to shed a little bit of light, maybe, on some of the confusion and misunderstandings that are out there.

In one sense, based on public discussions going back some years ago already, we came to some of the topics. For example, as Robert referred to, the Robe of Righteousness topic and other such topics. It's become clear to me over time that when we talk about those kinds of topics,

Two people can hear the same topic, but look at it from a completely different perspective. And to me, the concept of the robes of righteousness and the purity of Christ, as we sing in that song, it cannot be touched by our merit, nor by our sin. It's Christ's perfect righteousness. We own that by faith alone.

So if we're referring to that, it's a correct understanding. The way I look at it, it's unblemished. If we're referring to the travel of faith, the sin that accumulates, thoughts that we experience, it's a completely different matter than that I've read about.

Very preciously in his devotion. It's another matter. Sometimes, perhaps, people, because of how they've looked at it or the way they've been taught, for example, on what the Robe of Righteousness means, they're looking at it as endeavor and not as justification. Just that perspective alone can cause confusion. And I know it's caused confusion. I've experienced it.

And so when those topics came out, people looking at it from different perspectives, now it quickly turned into, there's false prophets that are teaching differently, there's people that want to live in the permissiveness of sin, because they believe their sins are all forgiven, so therefore there's no need of the gospel.

And perhaps in some discussions, those kinds of things have been said, or something very close to those things have been said, but again, because of their perspective on what's being said, they get misconstrued. So I think that's part of it.

For myself personally, I do not believe that a person can never fall out of faith. I do not believe that we can't fall into sin. I don't believe that there's no need to work for the gospel once you've heard it one time. I never have believed it that way. But, yeah, because of the way things have been said or understood or has been construed, that's what's been

Projected out there to some degree. And I'm not blaming anyone for how guilty of those kinds of misperceptions. So, I guess kind of just related to myself and again some of the things expressed to me. I made an attempt, it was about a year ago now,

I tried to address some of those issues in a letter that I sent to a number of brothers. Some of those brothers are here, recipients of that letter. That led to a discussion, a couple of different discussions, small discussions. And some of the sentiments that expressed to me in those discussions was

There is a sense out there in the congregation, at least by some, that when I've attempted to, in sermons, bring some of those matters out, it comes from a place of love. Reaching down to the congregation is, if I'm somehow in a higher place, I'm trying to teach something.

That maybe people already know that creates confusion. I have a following of people that are trying to plow onto my understandings and follow me. So those were some of the things brought up. And of course that's distressing to me.

The closest I've been able to find as far as this thought of people following me, which I express then, and I still believe that as believers, we don't follow anyone, doesn't matter who they are, we do not follow them. We follow the voice of the Good Shepherd, speaks through the Word, the gentle, calling voice of Jesus, which can also be a rebuking voice

We have created and have attempted to justify a life of sin. But to a believer, it's a calming, gentle, encouraging voice. We don't follow man. And I would say to this congregation that if there are any who follow me or any other minister, search your own heart. Listen for the voice of the Good Shepherd.

Don't look at the words being said and base them on who's saying it, but is it in accordance with the truth and the message of our Lord Jesus Christ? But I did have heard as far as that goes, whether people are calling me, that there was a statement that was made by my own father

His struggles and difficulties, his personal challenges that he's had in his own life of faith. He said, I believe like Craig, I believe like John. And I visited with him about that, because in some sense I was a little distressed. But he didn't mean that. He's following. I can't go astray. But that

It has the same faith. And I'm sure that is something that many of us say at different times in our life, that, yeah, I share the same faith, I have the same understanding, or I believe alike, so on and so forth. It's an expression that gets used.

So again, I just want to say for myself, I hope there's nobody in this congregation or in any congregation that is following me, because I would not want that to happen. And if I would begin to gather a following, then I should not be serving. But again, in regards to my own understandings, I don't, as I said, have a perfect understanding.

I believe I have faith. I believe God has put me here to serve this congregation. I believe that the congregation also has the right to have me sit, if that seems best. I have no desire to be anything other than what I am, which is a sinner who yet needs

Desires live up the gospel and has the hope of eternal life in heaven. So I encourage the congregation just to be open. I know one of the understandings that some has caused some confusion is the expression that my sins are already forgiven. I know that.

Some question, what does that mean? To me it means we live simply of God's grace. We, as believers, when faith is in our hearts, we are justified for the Father. By the merits of Christ alone. And of course,

That leads to the endeavor of faith, the desire to battle sin, and the need to live with the gospel. So if somebody takes that kind of expression or understanding, which you can take the words right out of the Bible to justify some type of a life. If you leave other parts of the Bible out,

So we must look at things as a whole. And that being said, the scriptures are not open just to one person over the understandings of one person, and that's why we need the different gifts, as Joe brought out, not saying that my gifts are so important or necessary. That's up to the congregation.

But it is the reason that God has given different gifts so that different parts of God's word can be brought out, expounded on, explained according to whatever measure God gives to whoever and whoever he gives his gifts to. And they're no more special to one person than they are to another, despite what idol or position or

Whatever it is that we might hold, because it's God's gifts, it's His congregation. Sometimes, as we've all experienced in our own homes, even that small, gentle voice that comes even through the children who have no knowledge of doctrine.

We have a simple knowledge and understanding of a child that reminds us of older ones. The simplicity of childlike faith. So there's a lot of matters that can be discussed here publicly and privately. And again,

As I have said to this congregation in the past, that if I have caused an offense, I want to be forgiven, I want to be cared for. I don't even know always the offenses I have caused. I want to be carried.

In regards to the question that came up as far as the discussion at the Monticello meeting, the question poses what was the other voice or the different voice that was heard? And again, we might look at that as there's different perspectives on that.

I know for myself that there were some statements made that were very strong, particularly addressed to one congregation and to one board. Those sentiments

And I guess strong statements have caused concern. Others from different areas heard some of those statements, and even one of those brothers who had expressed those kinds of sentiments, himself one I didn't care for. Or the tone, or I don't even know exactly what,

Words he used, but he wanted to be cared for. So I know that in these battles, we've all fallen short. We've made statements that we regret. Our flesh rises up. Sometimes when we have this thought that it's a spirit answer, it's possible that certain things that are being said to come from our own

And maybe it doesn't set very well with another person. And that's why we need so much the love and care of one another. And as I even mentioned this morning, the compassion of our Lord Jesus Christ, that he would look upon us with the eyes of compassion as he looked upon Peter.

Peter was such that despite who he was, Jesus loved him. I have expressed this kind of concern and still have this concern at times that if there's not freedom to be who we are,

Without being in fear of being criticized and judged by one another, that does take away freedom. My sister mentioned the fear, and this portion of 1 John came to mind that herein is our love made perfect that we may have boldness in the day of judgment because as He is, so are we in this world.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love cast about fear, as fear hath torment. That fear does not mean perfect in love. We love him because he first loved us. When fear rises up, it's the flesh in us getting the best of us. And we want to, because fellow believers, travelers of faith,

Not wanting to promote that in one another, but attempt by and through God's spirit and the abilities that he gives us to encourage one another, uplift one another. Let's not talk about one another behind bags. Let's put our own fears aside and pray for

The right heart to approach one another in love from a place from below where we can then uplift and carry one another because we're on this same journey. None of us is any better. As one sister mentioned already, we're all sinners. We've all fallen short. We all need God's forgiveness and

Forgiveness that we can share with one another and preach to one another as often as we can. So let's put our trust in Him and put those matters aside. And again, for just my own comfort, I want to ask that this congregation would forgive me for all of my faults and shortcomings and sins.

Over here, uh, last... Oh, way on the other side, that's all. Uh, bear with me, and but...

You know, the Kingdom of God has been there for many, many years, prior to many of us. And over time, there have been many, many ministers that have come and gone in a fantastic way. And so, God's Kingdom has never been reliant on any one minister.

And when I listen to Craig, it comes to me anyway that the congregation would preferably not have to ask a minister to step down. When a minister knows that he's causing confusion, and has been talked about that confusion many, many times,

It seems to me that one would want to remove themselves personally. It's that problem or part of that problem. And so the congregation wouldn't ever do that. So that would be my question for Craig is wouldn't he personally want to be removed himself as a problem?

All right, I think I got about three, and so let's go up front here. And what I'm going to do is, if you've already talked, I'm going to try and give others that haven't talked an opportunity. So, you okay with that? I'll read up front here.

Just a little thought that came to mind when we're thinking about whether or not someone is correct or believing correctly. We're not basing that reasoning that someone's correct in their beliefs on the Bible. Where's our foundation? I feel like, or what I've read and what I've heard is that the Holy Spirit reveals what's in the Word. The Bible is given for God for us to help us in times like this.

And so I believe that if there's something wrong, God will also reveal it for his word. And so to say that someone should step down because of confusion or because of a weird feeling that you can't put a finger on, I think that those matters need to be discussed more. Confusion's not going to go away with just taking someone down because

If there is something that's wrong, God will reveal it through the word. And I just, yeah, I just feel like, yeah, where's the, is our basis then on the confusion? Is that the basis for faith? Where's the basis for faith if it's not on the word or on Jesus? There's [name omitted].

Okay, first of all, there's a scripture portion in Acts 5, 29, that says, And Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than man. So, my question is,

If the board has, on their own, come up with the idea that Craig has got something wrong with them, is there a possibility that we could get an overhead up on the front here and decipher what are the doctrinal differences? Because I know at the time of the last heresy, there were doctrinal differences.

But then at the end of the day, it was that unnamed corporal that had spoken up in church, and she had never spoken prior to this. This is what I've been told. And it was said that we would temporarily cut our ties with Finland. And she

Spoke up and said that the word temporarily means permanent, you guys. So listen to the words temporarily. That is not temporarily. That is permanently cutting ties with Finland. So the similarities that are going on today and the before and prior to the last heresy are fake, like unbelievable.

And also in this Peter [Nevala's] book, it is written that this was the Calumet board that, you know, of course, had all, correct me if I'm wrong, but all those people on the board told you it's a heresy? Is that true?

As far as I know, that's how I understood it. Maybe there was one guy that knows where he went. Okay, so, in this book it states that the board that was supposed to be the servant of the member congregations had become their ruler. They started ruling over all these congregations, this mission board that went into the heresy.

So I think we've got to start looking at what are the doctrinal differences? Because this is not a Craig deal. This is everybody here. How do you believe? And I think we've got to personally start taking a stand for ourselves and not put the blame on anybody else. But what is your core foundation?

Because we've been sleeping for like 40 to 50 years, and that is another thing that Luther has stated in his book, that there's times where doctrine is not spoken for years and years and years, and then it doesn't ever, because nobody knows what their firm foundation is. Uh...

I guess I'm pretty fearful after I left the annual meeting that I would sit on my hands when I go to any further meetings.

It's really clear that there is concern. Otherwise we wouldn't have these hour-long discussions, months and months, going on for years now. And obviously it came out at the annual meeting that there was concern about

That annual meeting was really an open thing, and I felt like that meeting went well as far as there being an openness to speak. I'm not sure exactly what the issues are, but there are obviously issues. When I hear comments saying that he should dismiss, I have told people on our board that I would like to hear

What the issues are for myself, I guess I haven't heard anything that he has spoken incorrectly or something that doesn't answer with how I believe. I'm not a great follower. I'm not anybody's follower, and I don't think any one of us should be. But on the other hand,

If there is confusion, and there is, everybody is confused. Maybe some are confused for different reasons. But if we say the time is now for Craig to sit, and it goes that way, that's God's will. But I think we, whether Craig sits or speaks, the confusion isn't going to go away. We need to speak about these matters. There needs to be freedom.

Because for my own personal endeavor, I need to know, I want to know that I'm believing correctly. And if I'm not bothered by somebody that somebody else is bothered by, where does that leave me? I think we're all sitting here because we all have the same common goal. We all want to make it to heaven. How is this possible? A lot of times it's that, is it even possible that we can have that love return amongst all of us?

But it is. God is gracious. God is almighty and powerful. He created this world. He too will one day end this world. He's got great power. Let's put aside these differences. Let's talk it well and carry one another so we can all make it. Uh, maybe some corn over here.

Sorry, I just, that's the mic that's right here. I just wanted to say that

When I was growing up, I thought it was okay, like during Bible classes or camps or confirmations, we'd write things out of the Bible, and then we broke into groups, and sometimes we had like a different, not 100% understanding, because, I don't know, faith is a mystery, I guess, but isn't it okay? I always believed it was a mystery.

I feel like we can just keep studying the Bible and God's word and maybe take our focus more on that item.

Here we go.

The Word of God is deep and rich and so powerful that none of us can ever reach the depth, width, breadth, length of it by any means, not even close. And so what one

Believer has to give from God's word might not differ from another's but add to what God gives to another. But the issue becomes when there's different understanding. That is what's concerning. And that can't be

We are of one faith, one spirit.

One God, one Lord, everything in God's kingdom is one. It's not many. And I would love to come to this meeting and hear that everything is resolved and I can just hold my life. I wish we could have services all afternoon here, not just have this discussion. Services would...

These discussions cause a lot of distress in my heart. So some came here and said, what are we talking about?

And I know exactly where they're coming from because I've said that same thing in my mind many, many times over. Really, what's the problem? You know, we just believe. Put our sins away, believe. And I really feel like that is where we were at four years ago.

You know, there became questions that were brought to different gatherings. And there's nothing wrong with a question. Nobody looks sideways at somebody who might ask a question. If you knew how many questions I've asked brothers, you would say, well, does this guy know anything? But it's how you receive the answer.

When the voice of the Good Shepherd answers, and we don't hear it, believe it, that's where the problem is.

And I one day, when I sat down to read the patch break, I thought, I'm going to just jot down a few of these confusing questions and comments. Because I can't remember when somebody asked me, what's the issue? And my mind goes blank. So I'm just going to touch on a few of these thoughts that I've jotted down.

And so, I titled this, Why the Confusion? Some say they have been enlightened. When they say they have been enlightened, that in itself isn't wrong. I hear things in sermons and stuff and I go, oh, I never understood that at all, but that was interesting, that was great.

Thank you, God. But this enlightenment wasn't that way. It's like they've been enlightened to a new teaching. In other words, the Kingdom of God has had a wrong understanding of teaching these matters. Some say they have broken a confessional spirit. And I can understand that if somebody

The enemy has attacked somebody in a way that they do not be able to believe their sin will be forgiven on them. Absolution has been preached. But to say that they grew up with a confessional spirit and teaching of God's kingdom, that's concerning. I don't remember that when I grew up.

I know when sin was pressing upon me then and I know it now. And I know what to do about it. God has helped, given us a way of escape. Some say there is a demand for confession in sermons. I don't hear that.

I hereby encourage you to put sin away, not faith. Some say our sins are always forgiven no matter what sins one might have fallen into. Always forgiven. Always. Why do we talk about sin? Sin is always forgiven.

Then why do we need to talk about it? Because it's forgiven anyway. Unforgiven sin is what separates man from God. Has one fallen down believing? Some people put the Word of God above the congregation of the Holy Spirit.

We fed God's Word without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the key that opens the Word. We can't put one above the other. Mind your standing. And we pray that God will always open His Word right through the Holy Spirit. Because if it wasn't through the Holy Spirit,

Then it was just words. No power. Some say there are brothers in the LLC that are heavy and candid. I know the brothers in the LLC. They're all sinners. They're all trying to do what they're promised to do. And to have that accusation against them

Very good. Search your heart, brothers and sisters. You have manners against these brothers and sisters that work in our office and serve God's kingdom. They are not above them. No. They serve below them. Are they sinful? Do they have flesh and blood? Yes.

Are they always right? No. No way. But to say that these brothers who serve above are heavy-handed is very dangerous.

Some say they have no need of confession because they have faith, belief. These are statements that I've heard, not just faith, because I've heard somebody say something else. Some have said that there's forgiveness of sins in the community elements. They go to the communion table there and receive their sins forgiven.

Some say that until you understand what justification means, you can't have faith. As though we haven't been taught directly how we are saved. This has caused lots of anxiety in believers. They go home hearing this kind of sermon and they don't even doubt it. I'm not even a believer. I don't understand. I can't explain what justification means.

First, justification is important. We all understand how we are justified. Like faith, as we heard from our dear brother. Because we have faith, we have the forgiveness of sins that helps us and keeps us out of this narrow way.

Some have said that our conscience cannot be tarnished, wounded, dirty, etc. because God looks at us through Christ. He sees us as sinless, as the mere works of Christ. Who has ever said that? Again, we heard through our dear brother how the endeavor is to endeavor to keep faith in a pure conscience.

I've heard with my own ears someone said that all we need is faith. We don't need to worry about clean, pure conscience. Some say that our sins are already forgiven before we commit them. It's kind of those kinds of comments that cause

That wrenching anxiety, though, why? Why would we seem to say that? I mean, for number one, we can't live for tomorrow. We live, we believe, for today, this moment. Of course we know that Jesus did that perfect work for us. He paid our sins and debt, our sin debt. No question about that.

Some say we always forgive the unbeliever when they ask, even if they do not want us in unbelief forgiven. We know that our mission is to forgive. We want to forgive unconditionally. But when one puts conditions on their repentance, how can we forgive?

I just thought, this is, oh, I would just love to follow him from here and believe all is well. I know that I'm just a weak, poor, sinful man.

My prayer is that I will be down there. Most important, dear God, help me, take care of me. I need you now to hear the gospel. Can I believe this? It's real. [Names omitted], please stand for a second.

I couldn't tell. I can give you a recent instruction.

Oh, as a reminder, it is 5 o'clock, so for the next couple of hours there will be a light meal. But there's some preparations prepared. I'll just go with you, if you'd like. And Sarah was speaking, and you spoke about the Last Heresy and how it's been many years since the Last Heresy.

And you talked about how you read and read Peter [Nevala's] book. I find it quite ironic, or maybe not ironic is the right word, but about God gave Peter even the foresight of having Stony Lake Camp and the importance of youth learning.

And when you stated that we've been asleep, or I can't remember exactly how you stated it for many years, I would say I disagree with that statement. Ever since I was a wee lad, [Stony Lake] wasn't in place, so I think since first grade back then, went to youth camp.

We've had Sunday school confirmation camps, so on and so forth. And over the years, at all these camps, what is the core subject is how we believe. We dive into, at youth camps, the robe of righteousness and some of these, or if you'd say these doctrinal topics. No, of course not, but we...

We keep it simple and the ABCs are taught at these camps and Sunday school and so on. And so I think it's this that for all these years that it has been a simple message. When one of the opening comments here

Comment was made. We have been living in time of learning, or we are living in time of learning. I guess I question, what does that mean? That we're living in time of learning?

I guess I would say I believe the same today that even as a little kid I believed. And it feels like some of the sentiment out there is that we need to be, as Nathan stated and commented about, enlightened.

I personally don't feel a need that I have to go in and dive into all these doctrinal issues and try and figure them out. All I need to do is put sin away.

So my own burden doesn't become too heavy so I can continue.

And it feels as though, or some of the, I guess some of the comments have been this over the last four years is that when some of these questions have been brought, as Nathan stated, that they haven't been satisfied with the answer that has been given at these meetings when the Spirit has spoke.

So that's the issue of what is happening today. And why there is continued confusion and, if we'd say, angst. I think over, in my 41 years on this earth, it's the same.

And in order to make it to heaven, and I've always said that, you know, some of us are too thick of a head, so we have to, or I have a too thick head, I have to keep it simple.

Why do we need to necessarily dig into the doctrine? And maybe people are 100% correct, but sometimes in the process, people can become confused. And so I would say it's this that, keep it simple, even for my own self,

I'm going to just grab the mic because it's here in Victoria. This is what bothers me about these discussions because

I don't know of any enlightened group. And when you say some say, say this and that, I haven't heard that. And so that's where I just think, is this what's causing this confusion? Because I haven't heard people say that. And maybe somebody might have a wrong understanding of some things. I mean, I likely all do.

But to bring it up that there's this group of people that want to change Christianity, it actually, I don't think that's right. I don't think that's what's happening. And I'm going to give an example. I'm going to bring up Wolf Lake because it's close to my heart, because my sister lives there. And there's been many meetings with Wolf Lake.

And there has been half-true step above the plate. And one of them about the robe is pure. And we just sang how the robe is pure. They've been in three meetings with boards about how the robe gets stained. And they were actually told that they were in non-doctrine because they believed that the robe is pure. And they have been in meetings, at least three or four meetings about that. And maybe I'm drying up in this.

I don't expect forgiveness. I forgive people, you know, that there's these wrong understandings. But when it comes to the divisive and congregations are put to the mill and believers are trounced on, it's a double standard.

You said you're fearful. I'm fearful. Old Wake is fearful. Everybody's fearful. And when you say, some say, it hurts me. Well, talk to them, some say. Go with them with love. Don't talk about it in this broad place that everybody believes this way, because I don't think they do. That's where I feel that it's divisive.

We're creating this divisiveness by some of our speeches. I probably am too. But I just am so troubled. We need charity for each other. We need love. And when Wolf Lake goes to a meeting, they're trembling.

They have been in countless meetings. And then people say they don't want to meet. And that is not true. They have been, in the last four years, they have been in 26 meetings. And if nobody thinks this is about Wolf Lake or John Lehtola or anybody, I'm not following John. I'm not following any man. I want to follow what is correct. And I don't have to look any farther than me to see a great sinner.

And I can ask, can I have my sins forgiven?

Now my thoughts continues what Victoria started. That when we are talking about confusing, what confuse me is this talk about confusing. That what is the measurement stick?

What we measure, whose sermons are confusing, or whose speeches are confusing. Where is the standard, or where is the rules? What we measure then, because shouldn't it be Bible? If here is confusing,

We should be able to point out what is confusing, what is the wrong framework. We can't base our pain on feelings, that there is some feeling that something doesn't answer. Okay, what is that something?

If we are making speakers dumb because of our feelings, that is really dangerous things that shouldn't happen in the class kingdom. We should be able to point out from the Bible where is the wrong doctrine. If we are

Okay, there is congregation here. There is many people who are confused by different things. I haven't ever been confused by Frank's sermons or Joe's sermons or many other people's, Ray's sermons or whoever's, but I've been confused in

Someone else's sermons, and if I feel confused, I go to talk to that minister. I don't start talking around that, okay, that was confusing, why he was saying this and that. I go to talk, what do you mean? How do you believe? And that's the way to go.

This someone said this and other one said that doesn't bring us anywhere. We need to get Bible and go to Bible and see where is this stuff, what confused the congregation.

I would be willing to do that drastic move that okay let's take all proper ministers down with the rest for our time period and let's have discussions instead of

Service on Sunday mornings. For so long that we get these things cleared out. I'm certain that if we continue these discussions, we find what is right and what is wrong. But we shouldn't follow any map, any feelings, or any confusion what we can point out. Okay, I'm going to read it after Rick.

I know I'm getting some that are just wanting to speak a second time, but I'm trying to give people a chance to speak the first time, so don't be offended if I speak a little bit later. I'll go back to questions, though.

What the differences are. Is there something doctrinal? I've said this over and over again at some of these meetings, and I guess it's been

Affirmed to me by the messages that I've received, that I'm receiving today, that I believe that the core confusion is the forgiveness of sins. I've believed that for a few years now. And the reasoning by which I say that, I am very proud of, that the annual meeting was conversations I've had with Craig,

Oh, the forgiveness of sins. I think it's the core message of God's kingdom, and that's one of the things that I can't believe in a different way. And when we left conversations together,

I guess that was one of the things that brought up the annual meeting discussion too, that that's one of the differences, but among the speakers, is that kind of a discussion where I found myself saying whether this is true or not, that I don't know if we believe the same way.

That's how seriously I look at it, forgiveness of sins. If we can't agree on that, we have nothing. And if I understand it, I think that is still the question of the greatest concern, I guess. And I'll be perfectly honest, this morning I was

I told my wife I didn't know if I wanted to come this morning. I didn't want to sit there and analyze anything. And to be perfectly honest, dear Craig, you spoke as I believed this morning. It was different. I overly enjoyed what you said this morning.

When we talk about forgiveness and remorse, where else is the same thing as forgiveness? I don't believe that way. I think that's one of the main sources of confusion because

If you find a different understanding of forgiveness, I guess the term that keeps being sent to me by text and email is continual forgiveness. I don't even know what that means in Christ's description, because it's not there in those words. And so I've always believed in grace, and as I spoke this afternoon, that's how I believe about justification by faith. And those words, continual forgiveness, are big.

We're supplanting something that creates these discussions that I don't think are the uncertain. It's really the core message of the Gospel. I can't believe a different way. I've been asked or told, or by, you know, Roxy, I guess, said that we need to go to the Word.

I search God's Word. I search it each time I observe. And it leads me to the same place every time. I guess that's what I wish.

It's that that concern could be alleviated. Because if that's correct, I think all these other topics disappear. Because it enforces a fact of understanding, faith. And it leads us down the right path.

And that's what concerns. And like I said, I was happy listening this morning. I was glad it came.

First to start off with, I'd like all my sins and doubts forgiven. I agree wholeheartedly with what Nathan Bowman had said, and what Rick just did, adhered and I've said a few times, a few people I don't want to talk too much anyway, but

The core problem is this continuous forgiveness of sin, and I'm confused on that myself. That's all I understand is when sin falls upon you, it will sin away. As many times as it falls upon you, you don't have to get into any more circumstances than that. And I just hope and pray that things get better.

And I'd also like to hear from more of the congregation people that don't talk much like themselves.

Yeah, I generally don't have that much meetings. Rick, I'm glad you said what you just said. I've had, over the last three to four years, many, many, many conversations and discussions.

When I look back, when I have had these recent discussions, to me, these are conversations that I've had personally. I feel that there's a diminishing of the power of the gospel.

I've gotten into these doctrinal discussions. I feel very unworthy of those types of discussions. I pray to God, give me strength, confess how I believe. I confess how I believe.

All these differences are coming. I have personally, through these last few years, by what Nathan has said, I've heard the same thing. I'm not even in the same discussions that Nathan's in. I have been told that the gospel is just a reassurance.

Sin does not attach to the conscience. There's many different other saints that have, to me, picked away at the power of this Gospel.

Another one was, you know, Laestadius made these words, believe your sins are given to you in the name of the precious blood. It's not in the Bible. Brothers and sisters, the Gospel has been in the Bible, and it's been in the Bible. What words are used? I don't know. When Jesus gave the example of washing the feet,

We need to take care of each other. I tremble because of the fact that there is a difference. I have talked to some believers. Do you believe sin attaches to your conscience? Of course. There's no hesitation.

I've asked that same question to another believer. That has not been the answer. I believe that I live in grace and I'm saved by grace. I also believe in the power of that gospel. Why would we want brothers and sisters

To diminish in any way that power of those, that precious gift that God has given us. And this term, continual forgiveness, I don't claim to understand, but it seems to me, and I could be wrong,

I've had these discussions with people. They say sin does not attach to conscience. The gospel is just a reassurance. It goes back to that term, continual forgiveness. It doesn't fit with that continual forgiveness, that term. If we live in continual forgiveness, how can sin attach to our conscience? Dear brothers and sisters,

We preach that gospel to each other. That power of that gospel absolves sin. And that's how I believe my board of things. That's how I believe my ministers. If there's a difference there, which I have heard with my own ears,

That is the difference. And I'm sorry, but that is the truth. And now, Brother Craig. I had heard something that was very alarming to me. It was about the power of the Gospel. That he had stated, and it doesn't wash away sin, that's wrong doctrine.

I discussed this with Craig. And when I discussed this with Craig, he said, oh, I believe. Of course sin attaches to conscience. Of course the Gospel cleanses sin. And what can I say? I said, amen. We blessed each other.

And that's how I believe Craig believes. Now, that is my only conversation with Craig as far as faith goes. If there's some other conversations that this board has had that I don't know about, that concerns, that I've brought up, then I would like to hear them because

That was, again, part of the reason why we're sitting here. And this robe of righteousness keeps coming up, and I just want to say, when Brother Eric said in this church, he's not a theologian. If the robe is Christ, it cannot be stained.

If the robe is our conscience, it can be steeped. I said, Amen. I've also had people ask me about withholding forgiveness, that Jouko believes in withholding forgiveness. So I asked our dear brother Jouko, How do you believe?

When it comes to withholding forgiveness, his answer to me personally was, his intent is always to forgive. I say amen. So hopefully, dear board members, if you have other feelings or discussions that you've had with our dear brother Craig, I would like to hear them.

For my own sins and doubts, can I believe these words?

I just want to address something when it comes to some comments that I feel like maybe not on purpose, because I'm not going to say that someone hasn't experienced or heard something that they've, like, everyone's experience is valid and everything that someone's heard is valid.

And I'm not going to put down on that, but I think it's important to remember that everybody can err, everybody can be in the wrong, and we need to open our hearts. And if someone comes in approaching us about a concern, like about me personally, for example, we need to take that and search ourselves, turn to the Bible, see where we're going wrong, and correct that.

Listen to the others, because what our purpose here as a congregation is to take care of others, and I don't think anybody should be so bold to be maybe vouching for anybody else. I don't know if that's the right word, but... Hold on, I have a song written down, so I'm going to go pull it up.

Yeah, we just need to get responsibility for where we have gone wrong and not condemn those who probably with a trembling heart ran concerns of an area where others might have gone astray. We should all freely be able to do that and look out for each other and remember to be humble and not get upset when someone breaks something up about us. I think that's just important to remember.

I had a few things that came to mind. This is a few verses from James 1, or James chapter 1. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, not if it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.

So the way I take that is that if you, you know, in faith, you know, you have questions and you want to know, you know, what God's word says or, you know, you want to have answers in faith, you're asking, God will help you and God will give you answers to those questions. And so, that's what I've always kind of got comfort from. So turning to the Bible is not dangerous. God gave that to us and so that kind of,

I kind of, that came up because maybe it was just one comment, but a few comments or one comment that was mentioned about we shouldn't worry about these doctrinal things and that to me is confusing because

Why do we even have a Bible if we're not supposed to turn to that? Things are confusing. I think that's the only thing that will give us answers. And then there was a comment regarding the Bible being deep and something else. And this might be, I might have taken this out of context, but

There's actually a book that Luther wrote, a really big book, I haven't read it, but someone told me about it, that he was debating with another priest whether or not, so he, the other priest was saying that the Bible is confusing and only preachers should be preaching from it because not normal people can understand it. Luther's whole point was that the Bible is

I think that's good to keep in mind, too. The Bible isn't here to confuse us. It's not this thing, this black hole that will never give us answers. The Bible is what gives us all our answers.

I would just like to say that at the beginning of the meeting, Jeremy asked our congregation members to give their influence and their thoughts.

I'd like to say that my spirit says amen to the actions that the [board] has taken and I fully support what they've done. I would also, my spirit

My appeal would be answered in a tranquil dress. I think Mark, Craig, and Diana have gone through some tough times with all of this, but I don't think the view of ministership or being a minister, not being a minister, being

I think a major trauma in life, even if Craig is not a minister and still a child of God, is still as likely and able to get to heaven as any of us others. I feel that there has been some confusion around Craig, whether it's in the service or discussions, private discussions, you know, around. And like I said,

I would also like to ask that can I have all my sins and doubts and traumas forgiven me. It also sounds good to me to request one. Um, right now... Can I ask you a question? Can I ask you a question?

I think John took the words out of my mouth. I agree with what John just said. I agree with what they said.

We also have to trust. We speak about God's word. God's word is open to the Holy Spirit.

So we can't forget that the Holy Spirit is the key that opens out God's Word. The Holy Spirit is a feeling that we have. And I know some have said they don't want to talk about feelings, but we can't ignore or deny that there is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does.

Either the servant answers to our spirit or does not answer to our spirit. Actions of the [board] either answer to our spirit or they don't answer to our spirit. And I say that happens. The servants here that have not answered to our spirit, I think we've heard the other congregation members say the same thing. There are others that say, I don't see the problem, but I can only say that I hope and pray that God could open your eyes. You can't see.

Or if you can't seem to accept what God's Spirit is revealing. And I think there's nothing more that I think any of us would want is that everyone here could make it to the destination. And those have been fighting for a number of years about things. Sometimes it's not clear what the issues are, but there's these issues that just don't go away. It feels like there are those who are fighting against the congregation.

And I hope and pray that you would be given the wisdom or the doubt, sight, to see and understand.

I do support the out-and-out board. I also think it would be inappropriate if we could rest for his sake, if not any help for his sake. Thank you. Any thoughts going through my mind here?

Put them in some sense of an order. The comment that Rick had mentioned on the matter of forgiveness, I think is very, is what I have seen probably being more of an issue. How do we view, what do we believe that forgiveness in a sense is?

Is the forgiveness of sins just a reassurance of what Christ has already done? Or are we cleansing our conscience when we believe in the proclamation of absolution? For myself, growing up, and still how I believe today,

I believe forgiveness of sins is the cleansing of conscience. Sin is attached. We can see many examples in the Bible where God was angry. We saw those that he had called his own when they fell into sin. He would be angry and

Sometimes there was atonement for that, other times there was not. I believe that through faith, through grace,

When God looks at us through Christ, we are heaven-accepted. He does teach us sin. But yet, in the same manner, we can still fall into sin. We still need assurance in the Gospel. Put away those sins. That is the great mystery.

I don't understand it. I try to understand it in my mind, but I can't. How we can be so simple, but yet unacceptable. If sin continues to pile on our conscience, it will lead us away from faith. At what point that happens, I have no idea. I don't think anybody can say at what point that happens.

But no consequences of sin is death. So when I heard, and I've heard it with my own ears, that the gospel of forgiveness is just a reassurance of what Christ has already done,

That we don't have any sin, I can't agree with that. And I think that has become a core issue here in Christianity today.

Myself, I have tried when I have fallen into sin and I have been ashamed of that sin. I have wanted to just believe that it is forgiven. And I can believe that it is forgiven.

And oftentimes I even believe that yes, it has been forgiven and my life continues on and I feel like I have been on the way to heaven. I have, I would still think it was heaven acceptable then, even though that sin nags at me. That's where we have that grace, gift, and compassion.

Because when I have been able to confess that which was bothering me, which I had fallen into, even though I believed the gospel, that that was washed away, now the enemy has nothing to come and say, but look, you still have this man. It is a grace gift that we have to be able to put those things by name away.

As I said, I don't feel I was any less to have an accept. But to be able to remove that stumbling block when the enemy comes and says, you're such a great sinner because you still did this or you have this matter on your heart, and that can be removed, makes the journey a solution.

One of the other sisters, I don't remember who it was, had mentioned that there's a lot of rumors. And I would agree, there are a lot of rumors. Oftentimes rumors come about what happens in our board meetings. Sometimes they're very untrue.

Sometimes they're being completely distorted. There are times there might be a comment that was made that they nailed it right on the head. They got a comment 100%. All these things, these discussions that we have in our board meetings,

How they get out there and how they get misconstrued is beyond me. I wonder where there's a senior recording device or something in the boardroom there that somebody's been listening in. I don't think that's probably the case, but that's an example of how people hear things

And it gets spread all over the place. When we meet in our board meetings, I know for myself that I can see the other board members come there trembling. We don't come with answers. We don't come with agendas.

We come there to serve gifts that God has given of each of us to try and serve the congregation. We say things in our board meetings that might not necessarily come out clear. Yes. I've probably said things that weren't clear.

The direction of the conversation could be turned by one or two comments. And there's been times where some of those comments have come out. And that is a problem.

I would agree that we need to stop our overwhelm. We need to each look at ourselves and say, is this constructive? Am I putting the best construction on this person or on this comment?

Of course there's time when something is wrong and there is a rebuke. I agree that we need to be able to visit in openness with one another and come to one another and visit. The matters between two individuals are unclear.

That we would bring maybe one or two other trusted people into the whole, into the conversation. But it seems that if there has been a conversation so many times, it gets spread. It goes like wildfire. One small example is the meeting, the most recent board meeting that we had,

Where we visited with Craig. Now I wasn't there at that board meeting, but I received communication back to me about how the meeting was. And it wasn't from the other board members or ministers. How was that happening?

We continue. We hear things and we just spread them out. So I know for myself, I feel like when I go to the [board] meetings, I have nothing to add. I feel like the work that I've been entrusted with on the [board], I don't have the skills.

Yet I long to be obedient to the voice of the congregation. In this matter with Craig, whether he serves or not, we have visited many times more meetings. Many people have had individual discussions.

These comments come, and it's not the board who has decided that we need to decide amongst ourselves who speaks and who doesn't, but it is congregation members who have a voice of concern, not only in our congregation, but also in the neighboring congregations. I too, this morning, was very warm by Craig's sermon.

That is all I know. But I must say, in the morning discussions, when I have heard people discuss forgiveness of sins, I often feel like I don't hear properly, or maybe I question myself, but I hear that directly. I feel like I have heard.

These are the answers. Yet today, I can only say amen. There is those congregation members who are [troubled] or who have been concerned with the speech of an individual and has come to

Attention on the board, there's been discussions. Is it so important that we continue to serve in that manner? If we cannot, I feel like we might not be able to speak clearly on what I'm trying to say. I will say the same voice though.

If my service on the board is not edifying to the congregation, then have me sit and let somebody else do the work. You're not saved by the work, you're saved by faith.

And if it becomes such an important position that we serve in one manner or another, we need to ask ourselves, why is it so important to me that I serve in this way? We are all little children of God's kingdom.

There's one brother that I've ever said in time in the life of four boys and girls sitting on the bench waiting to be called to a job. Now there's some that get called to speak, some that are called to do a board member, there's others that are called to a service director or a psalm painter.

It is all the glorification of God and his congregation. All praise and all honor goes to God. We want to all serve diligently the gifts that God has given us. So if one part of service in one area or another is

Not headlining goals we serve. Isn't it so important that we continue to serve in that manner? Feeling my own weakness. Feeling the way I want to come here this meeting. I feel so weak right now.

I'm not sure where to start. In regard to Craig, I've had many personal conversations with Craig. Probably 20 years ago, we were on the youth committee together. That was kind of when our conversations around faith matters began.

I never felt uncomfortable with any misunderstandings. His spirit or his sermons have never left me feeling uncomfortable or troubled. And I feel like if there ever was anything that I maybe wasn't clear on, it was an open door where I would call them up or stop at their house.

Visit about it. It's made me really sad to hear that there's this thought out there that there's Craig followers. In my conversations with Craig, he's never, ever given me the thought that

He would want followers, and that has been very contrary. And he has said, don't follow me, don't follow any minister, that the only one we can follow is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And I say amen to that. And then it just makes me...

I tremble when I hear that the Spirit reveals it without being measured with the Word. We know that the Bible is the highest authority.

And I'm just going to read a little piece. I received a letter from someone in another congregation. I believe this letter was sent to each of the board members and the ministers in Rockford. So it says, also I'm very concerned that there is way too much spirit talk nowadays without scripture basis.

So I would caution all of us that we wouldn't speak about spirits, confusion, feelings, cloud, smoke, enlightenment, can't put a figure on it, the spirit is troubled, the sheep are restless, listen to the voice, etc. without the word of God. These can easily be misused against others without needing to explain anything.

Luther seriously warns against this kind of wrong spirit time. In the song called Articles, Luther rejects basing anything on the internal revelations.

God grants his spirit or grace to no one except through or with the preceding outward word in order that we may thus be protected against the enthusiasts. For example, spirits who boast that they have the spirit without and before the word and accordingly judge scripture or the spoken word and explain and stretch it at their pleasure. This was in the SRK yearbook in 1989.

So it makes me comfortable to be taking ministers down, to be disinviting ministers. I just feel like when there's all this confusion that it would be good to stop and stand still and turn to God and pray that, show us the way. I believe everybody here wants to be on that one path to heaven.

And I feel like these taking ministers down and disinviting ministers is breaking the law. It's causing division. We feel the division. We feel the maybe, I don't know, this broken law between, you know, the strain between friendships, between families. And it's just really sad, and I just think

Let's all just help each other and not turn against each other. And I just pray that the love does not leave this congregation. I want to continue to love each one of you. And I pray that there is still love for me. And ask, can you forgive me?

First, I would like to say that

We should not make or bear the board as a big matter or a really spiritual matter that we evaluate everything they do with no experience with the answers or not, or we agree with certain people or not. They do a lot of work concerning operations of the church and stuff like that.

Borg is the board and I think everybody should be willing to advise if they think that there's something wrong with the board. And I know that I attended that board meeting myself. I was asked a question that why I came. I said I kind of trust issues. That I don't trust that the board doesn't follow their decisions according to the word.

We have gotten a lot of those cues and now I'm feeling awesome now that we discussed that, but we didn't even get the Bible and the Word. And based on how feelings are over it, some say,

Well, it's not the same. I mean, these congregations that we maybe talk to, we should talk about matters, not some people. Like this forgiveness, if that's the issue, let's have just one discussion about that issue. That when we talk about continuing forgiveness, it's not a new concept.

And in order to not confuse anybody, if people think that we live in forgiveness every moment, even though we fall into sin, we still have forgiveness on us. That we don't fall out of faith, but we want to take care of those matters.

Well, that's continual forgiveness. Everybody will wake up believing. It means being in continuous forgiveness. I vowed to sin, but I still have the God's grace on me. That's continual forgiveness. It's very [big: robe of] righteousness, grace, continual forgiveness. They are the same. And I said, why is it confusing to take a word and say, that's not...

Or there was a talk about reassurance of sense. It doesn't mean that it's reassurance that it doesn't cleanse. It still cleanses us.

But we need it, because I guess it's when it is important that, okay, what is our sinfulness? It's 100%. If you take a person from the world, what is that person's sinfulness? Say it was mine, 100%. But there's nothing to defend our sinful portions when we conquer all our people in the world.

But what is different is that we have this righteousness of faith. God gave us this gift because when we believed that Jesus died for our sins, then we got this righteousness, grace, hope, you know, on us, what is keeping us believing all the time. And that still our sinfulness is 100%. We fall into some sin what bothers us,

All simple, necessary percent.

And then we confess, still our sinfulness is 100%. It doesn't go up or down or anything. It's always 100%. That's a mystery that we can still be saved even though we are so sinful. But yeah, we find a cleanse of our conscience. And I was asked a question in that board meeting, and do I ever go to anybody to ask for forgiveness? Yes, I do, many times. Sometimes many times a day. Sometimes I forget the responsibility.

I still believe the whole time that the Son of Christ is on me, and I accept it, because I have faith. And I hope that I can always keep this faith, really precious to me, that I don't lose it. And I trust that if I have a desire, God will let me have it.

Even the situation when they think God, Almighty God, and God is allowing this to happen. Maybe God wants us to go back to the Bible and His Word and study it. Maybe that's God's will. Maybe God has seen that there's something that He wants us to kind of...

You know, I'm speaking of course. But let's, you know, given this, let's study these matters that we don't go long on or that God has allowed this to happen.

Because God is in power, and is today, for everything. And we should put all our trust in God, or if God hate us, so I don't have to say this, but I would like to hear from a pulpit, like every time that

Don't worry that we can all be together and we can discuss these matters. We don't need to blame each other. Let God lead us away, lead us in the right way and trust that, you know, we will show them that there's no sides to choose. There's only one way. We don't need to choose sides or anything. I think that's the right thing to say.

That's not too much grace. I think that's the right thing to say. We need to just trust that being together and caring for each other, that's what we want, we all want. And we don't need to be judgmental.

I sit in the board meeting that I feel sad that Rockford Church is become a place for me where my faith is not enough. I feel that it's a judgmental place, that there has to be somehow a little bit of a reliever, because my faith certainly is not good enough. And it's hard when you can't come to church.

Well, the forgiveness issue, all I heard him say was that he thinks that the issue is forgiveness. I'm not sure exactly what he was referring to, and I never heard him say, you know, how he understands the matter. I don't know if he was referring to continual forgiveness, which has been brought up a couple of times here.

The issue on continual forgiveness goes back to one of Luther's foundational principles of the Reformation. I believe I'm right when I say that. That a believer is simultaneously righteous and a sinner. How does that work? That's another mystery, right?

That was going to be the topic today, mystery. So that's another mystery. And, well, it works through Christ. Because when Christ looks upon a person with a view, Christ sees no sin.

A few things here from the Bible here. First of all, Galatians 2.20, it's mentioned here that I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live. Christ lives within me. So Christ lives within me. Then 1 John 3 says, everyone who resides in him does not sin. When we're living in Christ, Christ sees no sin.

It doesn't mean that sin has disappeared from the world. It doesn't mean that sin has disappeared from our life. We're simultaneously righteous and sinners. Acts 26, 18. They receive their sins forgiven when they believe in me.

This is an article that Anna Nuttermanen wrote in that book. As the Christian owns Christ by faith, God sees only the righteousness of Christ and no sin in Him. So, the question here is,

Listen to a recording of a sermon from Paolo Manteva, who spoke in Minneapolis in 1981. And in that sermon there, he mentions, he's actually speaking on an excerpt from the Chronicle of Righteousness,

He said this matter of righteousness of faith has been talked about in sermons and introductions, writings, talked about over and over again. This is a very important topic. We should come back to this topic again and again and again. He says it's very, on one hand, a very difficult topic to understand, but on the other hand, because of your carnal mind, the person's carnal mind can't be understood.

Very simple topic to understand. And Luther also talks on these points as well, the same points that we should keep coming back to that article of righteousness, if you've studied that. And he says, I'll go around, he says in that sermon that when the concept of righteousness and faith becomes dim,

So, I think that's a topic that we should continue to discuss. And getting back to the annual meeting that was brought up to bring in [help from Finland], I think we should bring in [help from Finland]. So I was the one who made that motion at the annual meeting, and I'll make that motion again. We now move forward with, if you didn't mind, I'm just going to bring in

Let's start with that topic right there. Let's start with the Peaches of Sleep. We have some introductions and discussions on that, and let's study that topic. Next on the list here would be Mike McBride.

I don't think I turned there. Some people are older than I am, so I wanted to ask this question. I'm hearing that people don't believe sin attaches or don't need to use the gospel. I'd like to see a raise of hands for people who believe sin attaches and they need to use the gospel many times over in their lifetime.

Tell her to do it the opposite. Tell her to do it the opposite. I've got a quick question. I know some of these ministers have gone to Finland lately. I know Jouko went in December and now there's another group that just went. Is there a possibility

We could get some feedback as to how those meetings went over in Finland. I know Jouko is our full-time minister. Is there a possibility he could speak as to what went down in December, January? What? The meetings? Yes, meetings that he was at in Finland. Did he discuss our problems here in America, in this church, Rockford? Could he answer?

I'll leave that to Jouko. You can give the mic to Jouko and you can maybe start answering some of these questions that we may have. Mike Pickerizer is next on the list here. He's got the mic.

Jouko can answer the questions if they're... Where's Mike? Alright. If he's not here now, next would be Kim O. Oh, that was Kim, okay.

All right, could you now move on, please? Middle towards the front here. I just wanted to make a comment about taking a speaker down.

I have visited with many Finnish speakers and Swedish speakers and told me about the same kind of issues that were in Finland like five years ago. And they said when they've taken some speakers down, they didn't speak doctrinally wrong. It was, the congregation was

Confused by all that minister. Once the minister was taken out in a certain congregation, peace was restored again. And I'm not saying that all our problems are going to go away by taking a minister down. I think the problems are deep. But I just want to clarify that I have heard indeed in Finland they have taken ministers down without

They all have spoken wrong doctrinally. I don't believe it. Another thing I wanted to bring up is that it makes me really fearful when I hear accusations against Rockford congregation that there's evil spirits here and that people are judging. It makes it sound like that congregation is judging. And my question would be who is judging who here?

As far as Craig is concerned, it seems like this is what the discussion, the main topic of our discussion was continuing of the annual meeting. I carry Craig as a dear brother in faith, and we had discussions together

And I know Craig wants to believe, and just like I want to believe. There has been concern with myself about Craig, but I do believe he wants to believe, and I carry him as a dear brother. But there is definitely confusion around Craig with other speakers that I have visited with from Speakers Camp, with other congregation members.

I personally, it's not my wish to put anybody down, but I do pray for Craig and Diana and their family and for all of us. And I pray that God's will will be done today.

I did a mission trip to Finland, starting with the minister's meeting in late December. It was about four in the trip. And during the trip there was a private, small discussion where I was asked a few questions about the situation here. And he was, I would say, confidential in between.

It's a great private discussion. And I'm kind of surprised that there is so much interest in that. I've heard that I was rebuked of something. I was not. I was asked a few questions about things out here. And they explained as good as in a short meeting I was able to. So, there's nothing very...

Special or newsworthy in that level of discussion. I hope that answers your question. Was there a specific question that Jouko should be answering? Was there a specific question? So Robert, I'll rise on the next.

Great Reassurance was spoken in what is obscurity or whatever. We put it out to noun as an action of removing someone's doubts or fears. So, I think that if I asked for your gospel, I was...

We assure that that, indeed, is washed away. I can put it behind me. Sure, please. I don't see anything negative on that. But, beginning when this started, the statement said that there are matters of war in Greece that's present and that they're in unity on it. Like, the only...

I think that they have specific matters, because they agree very duly. I don't know, I guess I'm just curious, what are they? Otherwise, they're like a dog chasing its tail around and around. I guess I would like to know.

This is forgiveness. As for me, I learned in Sunday school that Christ died on the cross for the sin debt of the entire world.

And he was such important for visual representation of that that even God turned away from him. He would not recognize him. And he went to hell and burned and came back. Yeah, I'm guessing forgiveness is on that list that the board's in unity on. So,

Perhaps, Board Member, enlighten us, please. Thank you. We'll come to, the microphone's over there, let's go to Jared, and then we'll say after that. Go ahead.

Summary from, I think it was two years ago now, when the SRK and the SFC and the LLC visited at the last meetings. Part of that summary there was a statement that said there's not a pre-gold proposed. On the misunderstanding and how we understand these matters between these three organizations. And so,

I remember taking a lot of comfort from that. I didn't need to know more than that. It was enough for me there that I believed the Savior's coming and speaking on these matters. I didn't need to dig into it any further. And I guess what troubles me

Is this that I can't easily say that there's not a real misunderstanding in how we view these matters. Rick mentioned in the second, and you go into a lot of detail on it, but to tell you

It was a 20-minute round-and-round circular conversation that left many of us wondering whether to really believe on this. Now, I also have to admit that over the last months, including this morning, my heart has answered how Christ has spoken. I've been thankful for that, and I thought maybe... So leave it at that.

Victoria asked a question earlier about feedback that I've got from other areas where I've served. And I did receive all of that from those others here. Not for misunderstanding. If you offended anyone, also do not seem to be concerned with reports from here.

And the reason I didn't bring that up is because there was also reports the other way. Honestly, Victoria, I don't want to be the filter and the gatekeeper of this information. I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. But...

That's the reason I didn't bring it up is because there was another side of that. There was one lady that was troubled by some of the discussions around the Holy Spirit. There was also a group that decided not to go to camp. This is...

Last year it was concerned that Craig was serving at a confirmation camp. Parents were concerned. There was questions from sister congregations where he has been scheduled. They have asked how it matters. I, as the chairman, have to say I have not gotten

I can't sit here and say that it's only because we're discussing him. I would say that we're discussing him because of those concerns. I specifically, as I said, can't say that there is exact same

The understanding that I have on matters of confession or forgiveness is correct, but where I kind of focus personally is on this, that when there's goals that make very

As we've heard, we mistrust the [board]. Are we really being obedient to the Holy Spirit? And there are just those that have pulled me in the face that I don't need forgiveness.

The response has been, nobody believes that way. And I feel I'm in a spot where I have to now defend myself or say something that somebody told me that I couldn't agree with. I can't look at it any other way. And those people that make those statements have to take it at face value. That's how they believe. And so when I

It doesn't bother me when they defend that, say that nobody believes that way. Yes, they do. We had the Monticello board members workshop that I mentioned in the opening. There was many comments that

Wholeheartedly with the presentation that Harri gave that day spoke the Holy Spirit. There was many comments that also expressed a concern for another document that was published just before that workshop.

I'm concerned with God's kingdom, and the people present at workshops. They were concerned about it. I myself had concerns about it. And so, what I find, someone had asked specifically about what were the issues that day that were, the speeches that were troubling.

When, after hearing for many hours of speeches talking in warning of caution about that letter that was published, while there were some speeches, three or four in a row right at the end of the meeting from another congregation board members,

They spoke of that letter as exactly how they believed. At the same time, they said that Harri's presentation also joined with them. And I thought, how can you say amen to both? I don't know.

See how that's possible. To me it looks like, it feels like, serving two masters. I personally have spoke with several people on that letter. I've explained my concerns that I have with it.

So this is maybe a long-winded way of saying that my concern with Craig, with Diana, is, I can't specifically say it is doctrinal, but I can say that it troubles me how they will defend and join with those

That's my concern. That's my song. Brothers and sisters, this whole matter has weighed on me heavily. I feared being dried up in this matter. I feared being overly watchful.

Take the microphone over to have them walk us up.

I was not sure if I really wanted to come to this session today. It's certainly been a very weary time to come to the discussion. I think many people shared that desire to interact with inquiry and

I don't know much about these things. I'm away from situations like this. I find it easy to believe simply that the gospel has the power to cleanse my inside conscience.

I've been really... I've heard that... I've heard that in great sermons. I've heard that in great devotions. I've heard that in comments here. I've heard that in best of facts. I've believed my whole life.

In regard to whether we should make decisions based on feelings, how else can I help?

I'm also going to try it here. I'm also going to try it here with the sphere at least.

That's them all. I don't... I didn't come here with any opinion on whether it actually needs to be named, or... I don't know, maybe I'd also be concerned that it would not be one. It would not be one way or the other. I don't know the truth with a capital T on it.

I believe I can hear God's small, still voice.

Through that small, still voice that you heard some moments earlier, I agree that it's an attachment to the conscience, and that the gospel tends to the conscience, and we discussed with Craig that we both believe the same way, and in this regard, I believe the same way, regarding this topic that

And the most anxious or sensual and recent ritual troubles. Craig's common case, you know, was that the heart felt, and I believe him that he doesn't, but you're following his. And what the sermon earlier felt behind it. And it's...

Describe any of your morning time feelings. Others have commented that it's certain to you. But, yet if there's other kinds and if people have a discern and confusion to me,

How else can we know that the Spirit is in the congregation? God's Word is not only private in the congregation. God's Word is a theological measure in our skin. I wish some 149% of the decision on

I guess I'll leave here today with the same reassurance that we just had the entire discussion is that. I'll continue this in conclusion. Yeah, I need to do the gossip.

By the back door, is this Garrett? Karen? Which one's on the book? Garrett. Garrett? Okay. Garrett. I guess I want to... It's not on.

I just wanted to speak about the Hatsan of Craig. I believe he speaks scripturally, Craig, and I listened this morning and I thought he had a really good sermon. And to be honest, I left honestly feeling guilty, like, you know, saying, like, we have to be careful while watching, you know, what everyone else's sins are, instead of kind of more focused on ourselves. And I just thought that was a really good message.

I also think just another thing I'd like to bring up too is that I heard a comment here mention that somewhere along the lines of how maybe the Wolf Lake brothers believe, maybe a ceremony they agree with a document and agree with a freedom of case. I just think it's kind of dangerous to say maybe how someone believes.

I don't know, I think maybe we should just talk to people one-on-one before just sitting in front of a whole congregation that maybe they do believe. I don't know. It was Jeremy's comment that kind of, I'd say, bothered me a bit, because he said that, hopefully, kind of, I don't know, I guess, kind of lost my train of thought a little bit.

Or just said that broadly instead of belief with the article and with the presentation. And so they believe that they're going. I think that could be dangerous to say how people believe instead of actually talking to them. So those are my thoughts.

Now towards the front here, Eric [surname unclear]. I didn't want to speak because I thought, you know what, what good is it to be doing? These guys already have their minds made up about what they have. And these are just my thoughts, so you can take it for what it's worth. But I thought these gentlemen already have their minds made up as far as what's on their agenda.

And, you know, a lot of the things that you're going to see when I leave. And then I thought, you know what, we're going to just let you guys hold it. And I think it's really comforting that we're all here speaking together. I think that this is...

And what's ironic about it, and it's very, very ironic about it, is that it was probably about 12 months ago, or maybe not quite 12 months, that I was standing in the same position and I was talking to the chair, and they were discussing Joe. Not Craig, but Joe. And it's so ironic to me that I had asked that question. I said, are you, by chance, discussing any of the ministers?

And the gentlemen on the board, as well as Jer, are all looking at me like they're in headlights. It's the thing that reminded me of what I was talking about. And now we'll sit here today talking about Craig Kumpula. Isn't that ironic that even the officer might just help us? So that's the first thing that just kind of struck me as odd. And then the second thing that's on my mind is,

In that 12 months, has anything been resolved? Or are we just continuing to go down this path of division? And what is my goal? Is it to divide or to come together and to love one another? And so I'm commotion, and maybe I'm crazy, and I'll just watch it happen.

And if you do think that I am, please come by me personally. I'd appreciate that. That perhaps the current board members take a seat, and we put some new faces on the board. So the chairmen and all the board members take a seat. And we mix it up a little bit. We put some names in the hat. We are biased. No buddies, no go, whatever.

And we put some new gentlemen and perhaps some females, perhaps at the widest of the current board members. And then we start fresh, on a fresh note, and we discuss doctrine. Not people, not names, but doctrine. And what do we bring at the end of the day?

And there's a couple of comments that have come up that I've heard from a couple of gentlemen in this room that I second what that guy said, or I second what he said. When we stand before God and judge Him, He doesn't care who you agree with, who you second, who's your buddy, or what you did in that life.

And that's the beauty of faith. And that was something that Craig touched on in his sermon this morning. That there's nothing, nothing that we can do but believe. Faith, and that's it. And every time somebody talks about how they believe, it seems like we all believe the same way. We all believe in faith. We believe that our sins are forgiven.

And we believe in that also message. It's a very comforting message. It's a grace privilege. And when sin attaches to that carnal portion, we have that grace privilege to turn to a brother and sister and in our carnal mind wash that sin away. But the only reason that we're saved is, as many people have already said, God saved us through Christ. And we're completely pure.

You are saved, and to believe that, and fall asleep at night, put your head on that pillow, and know that you are saved, because you believe upon Christ, plain and simple. And so, I guess I'll circle back on this, because I can see a lot of eyeballs going up the moment I said my motion, so I can assume that there are multiple people afraid right now.

And the reason I say that is it doesn't seem like you board members are doing a very good job of bringing the congregation together and loving one another and saying, I haven't heard one of you say, you know what you guys, let's start fresh. Let's start on a positive note. Let's do this together as a team.

And let's not focus on Craig, but let's focus on doctrine. And let's put a presentation up and talk about doctrine. And so if you guys can't do that as a team, then perhaps we just start fresh and we put some new faces up there. And I think that'll be the day pick slide if I have any questions. But at least I want to be fully transparent and put my thoughts on the table.

Eric [surname unclear] is down here in the front here. But I felt like I had to comment that this is an extension. This meeting began at our annual meeting when we chose board members. The congregation spoke about board members that had a discussion.

I also believe that this is God's kingdom. The spirit rules and guides and leads. There's no one in the congregation that makes any changes. I also trust that the congregation will act and speak to that. The spirit directs. I don't think we need to make any kind of divisions.

Specific to anything, we've heard a lot of discussion recently of this kind of question of limitation of ordinance and so on and so forth, but I think the spirit of the congregation functions in the wisdom. We speak to these things very freely in the church, but I don't think we have to mandate how these things should be done with our own minds.

It feels like, to me, that there is a pure, in recent years, recent weeks, recent months, this idea of the congregation and how the Holy Spirit functions in the congregation. Some of the bad news that have come under question. We talk about the forgiveness of sins. It's the treasure of God's kingdom.

Remember, Jesus gave that power to forgive sins. Both John and Matthew report this, that when Jesus appeared to the disciples, he breathed on them the Holy Ghost. He said, "'Whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.'" That's when you can trust it. When that gospel is preached, it's washing the sins away.

It's not merely assurance, but it is washing us in a way. This is a mystery also of God's kingdom. The world doesn't see it this way. The world doesn't understand it this way. And this has been a point of discussion many, many times over in my life with unbelievable people, that how, where do you, how are you able to forgive sins?

This has been given by God. Jesus trusted that congregation did so simply believe. And to take this into discussion then, whether it's assurance or it's preaching of the gospel, it's another one of those

And this is what also in Scripture tells us that these needless and endless questions when they're asked these are a gender strike. They don't bring me some assurance. That's what I think much of these discussions in recent years have been, to talk about this matter of continual forgiveness.

I think it's a trap sometimes that people get caught up in when they start to research about what this actually means and where it came from. And I know the references have been to Luther's teaching and his soul, and specifically in the third article of the creed where it talks about how the congregation functions, how the Holy Spirit functions in the congregation. And when you read the one translation of Luther,

We talk something along these lines there. There is continual forgiveness in God's kingdom. We take another, the same translation of that paragraph, and it talks about how there is continuous need for forgiveness in God's kingdom. Same, third article of the Greek, same explanation, and it depends on translation of that document.

So I think the point we've made is that it's very important that our understanding of what we're reading is in alignment with the age-old teachings of God's kingdom.

This topic of continual forgiveness, and I agree that this is only out of Finland. In fact, I honestly believe that this term came from Finland. I think it was, and I think I know of at least one particular discussion where they had this, where there was an individual who was giving a presentation and he talked about continual forgiveness.

So I don't disagree that it's not there. In fact, I believe it came from there. But I think it's a dangerous thing when we start to talk about what continual forgiveness really is. You supplant the word or the term in place of grace. That's what you're trying to explain.

Let's talk about grace, because God's kingdom is always heard and understood. I know you've understood, but you've heard about grace. Testified by grace through faith. Not by works, but by any man who boasts. So you start down this road where you have

So the accusation now towards the congregation and towards the board, that the board hasn't been able to consolidate and bring people together, I think that's unfair because what you're asking the board to do is solve these academic discussions that they don't feel

And I think this, when we speak of this question, and Craig referenced the letter that he wrote, he did, a number of us received it, and Craig in there talks about this idea or thought of continuous forgiveness.

This term and these discussions are not edifying. They've caused concern in our nation. I think this is what we're talking about. It's not edifying. It's not building. It's not encouraging for a simple child of a believer. It's important. Very important. It's that kind of fence that's around God's kingdom.

And it needs to be said, it needs to be examined along with God's word. And so I don't think all that in any of these discussions we want to minimize God's word or doctrine. It's not the case at all. I'm also a little bit troubled when I hear that we need to turn to God's word. I don't disagree with it, but has this not happened?

Are our sermons based on anything other than God's Word? Are our presentations, our discussions, our Bible classes, our Sunday schools based on anything other than God's Word? Your interpretation of God's Word, however, may be wrong.

And if you don't understand or agree with how God's kingdom is understood or handled, that's not a problem of the Word or a problem of the congregation. That's a problem that the [enemy] of [souls] has created in you. So, the question also today was about our meetings in Finland. And I would like to bring lovely greetings from there.

It's not real, but when we were there, we heard about the LLC-5. There were just five brothers from the LLC company. What were they going to talk about? And so on and so forth. And it was really a strange process of the LLC-5. But the congregation in North America sent five brothers there.

We meet with our brethren there in Sweden and Finland. And these meetings have been established already some years ago. Every year we get together as organizations and discuss on the mutual work with God's kingdom.

As you know, the work of mission work, for example, continues to grow and increase. And these meetings have been very beneficial in planning your mutual work. This year, it means running the teams in the Confirmation School in Philadelphia for the first time. I have finished projects coming here to serve at Confirmation Schools.

These are areas of mutual work. Publications work, translating books together, writing books together, areas of mutual work. So these meetings have felt and been an important experience to continue that mutual work together.

It's God's kingdom after all. It's God's work. Which one of us would want to be obedient to the call that God would ask His servants? So this is the main focus. I provide a product of these meetings in this. We've gotten to know brothers and sisters there in the heart.

I mentioned two years ago those meetings that were held here in Loretto. We were in press meetings from Sweden where we met those days together. Eight brothers that serve on the SRK working committee traveled to Sweden there. Two other individuals, one was a translator and also a staff member came

We met with those born from Sweden and there we felt and experienced God's grace and God's perfection. We spoke about matters of doctrine. We talked about spiritual matters that are before us. We talked about the doctrine of the congregation.

And how God's Word and the congregation are not at odds with each other, but they're together one and the same. If we forsake the congregation, we forsake all. Remember how Jesus said, seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, everything else will be added. He talked about how God's kingdom is a pillar around the truth.

We also talked about these discussions that we've had not only here in the U.S., but also in Finland and Sweden.

And when these discussions become academic, an academic debate, it doesn't edify what's not described. It creates doubt. It creates worry and fear in the heart and side of the thought. It's enough, brothers and sisters, that we can remain believing as our forefathers and foremothers have done before us,

We've been sent away, leaving it for heaven in the name of the precious Father Jesus. In these discussions we experience how the preservation of mutual love is of utmost importance, and God has preserved that promise. We also experience here, as we've also experienced in Finland this week, how this spirit of unity, of which we spoke today,

This strange, made strange voice, a different voice, a different doctrine starts to enter into God's kingdom. The shepherd, mid-shepherd, calls, gathers. The sheep hear his voice, but the sheep don't hear the voice of the stranger. And that's what these discussions

It's a strange voice. It's not the voice of the Good Shepherd. When we talk about this matter, as we've talked about here today, bringing questions of boards and so on, it doesn't edify, it doesn't serve God's children. We've talked about the doctrine of justification. We've also talked about the doctrine of sanctification.

It can't be divided, it can't be separated. Just as the righteousness of faith cannot be separated from the righteousness of life, the one is saved. Different, yet they coexist. You cannot have one without the other. And how also the Holy Spirit functions

How do you know that which you're hearing is the voice of the Holy Spirit or if it's the voice of man? You have to ask that question, that word. Have you lost sight of God's kingdom? God's kingdom is where the Holy Spirit resides and the Holy Spirit resounds.

You can't manufacture that. And that's what the world would like to do. Even today we've heard this kind of admonition that we discuss these things and come to common understanding. The spirit indicts, but it doesn't. And that's what we're speaking of. We're not speaking of some

We're not speaking about a compromise. We're not speaking about coming to grips with some kind of a mutual understanding, the spirit unites or it offends. We also talked a long time about a presentation that our brother Pimo called the title, on the keys of the kingdom. And in that he spoke about the keys of loosing and the keys of binding are given to God's kingdom.

We talked about that for four years in North American Zion. The understanding of the believers and family is not different than it is here in the U.S. The believers there know and have experienced how that forgiveness looses, but also they know that God's kingdom has been entrusted

These keys of binding, however, are being discussed in a different way. Some there feel as if an individual could bind. So you see that in God's kingdom, no matter where God's kingdom is in this world, the enemy would like to bring confusion, wrong understanding,

There's a needed visit about this matter for many years now in Finland about this, that can an individual body. They've resolved, as I've also understood it to be, that only the congregation can bind. So even though it's a discussion that they've had there. Then on Saturday,

This was just on Friday. On Saturday we talked about the operational plan. And in the afternoon, Brother Kimo gave a presentation to give you a future and a hope. He talked about changes in society, how it's affected into God's kingdom.

And we all together realize and understand that society has a great effect also on God's kingdom. The political makeup of the world today also see the same kind of political emphasis at times on God's kingdom. God's kingdom is a kingdom. It's not a democracy. It's not open for debate.

God's Word is open to the power of the Holy Spirit. There have been those in Sweden and Finland who have retired, who have never, and it's straight away a good thing. It's not different there than here. But in the end, our meeting on those days

What I thought was so important was from the Book of Chronicles, where this quote, where we're talking about the battle, I think it's even important for us here. When we think about fighting Finland here, neither do I disagree with that.

They acknowledge there's also a battling kingdom there in Finland. That things are not all rosy just because it's in Finland. Not all understanding has been given in Finland but Sweden or the U.S. God's kingdom collected. There may be a time when this is important. God knows.

God must resist that. He shall not continue to fight in this battle. Set yourselves. Stand ye still. Receive the salvation of the Lord with you. O Judah and Jerusalem, fear not. Nor be dismayed. Tomorrow go out against them for the Lord.

God knows today that God fights on behalf of his children. He will not allow us to go astray. If there is this kind of faith, hope, prayer in our heart, as David had it, lead me to God. Search me. Know my heart. See if there be any evil or wicked way in me. Lead me in the way of everlasting life. God hears that prayer.

We will not leave one of those little ones. We will not leave the weakest one behind. He will fight for us and does fight for us. It doesn't mean that we stand still, just do nothing, but I think the important is that we prayerfully ask that how would God be able to stand?

Here we go, one step at a time, step by step, ultimately towards heaven. Now I think of, I would rather pray, because it's not as many as I had hoped or wished we would in the future, but it's true.

Who have gathered around you. I think for the sake of your divine soul, it would be well that you now would take this time to rest. There are so many things that are going on in North American Zion now.

And if I was to share all the emails and letters and discussions that we've had, we would go for Indian dollars. But the truth is this, that there is a vision in North America's eye. It is my hope, my sincerest hope, that God would be able to reveal what the matters are

So that those who are struggling tonight, Lord, come unto repentance, come along with God's kingdom, so that none are left behind. Dear Brother Craig, there are those who have gathered around you, who support you, I think, in the wrong way.

For the wrong reasons, I don't know what they are or why they would do this. I think it's important to recognize and understand this to be the case. I don't know that people even willingly or knowingly do this. The congregation is speaking, speaking to you, admonishing you, encouraging you.

And would you take a step back? Would you allow God to do His work among us? And when matters then are clarified, perhaps then would be a time that you can serve Him. But it seems so important. One individual said today, and I would hope it would be my case as well,

If the congregation is bringing concern towards me, I would listen. And I would humble myself in the care of the congregation. Because I don't know so well myself. I have to trust that the congregation knows me, wants to care for me as one of its own.

The mother hears the cry of the child. The mother wants to care for the children. The mother is wanting to care for you. I don't understand.

But I hear the voice of congregation meeting and calling and admonishing. This is my hope. Somehow, someway, God will be able to reveal these things to us. Someone mentioned earlier today about the parallels, about the comparisons between the Pharisees 45 years ago.

We lose sight, really, of what the truth is. We can become easily confused and draw parallels where they shouldn't be parallels. References have been made towards the board [there, the Calumet] Mission Board, [comparing] it [to] the [LLC] board today. Don't wait for a moment today.

It's the same, you can draw a parallel to it. I don't serve on the LLC board any longer, but I serve with it. I have experienced a God who's called me. I call him sinners. Through that work, the congregations have passed and entrusted me.

For them to send a letter requesting a meeting or a visit with an individual or a congregation, helping you draw a parallel to that which the mission board rejected at the time of the last years. For those kinds of concerns that were coming throughout North American Zion at that time, they didn't come and help. They didn't.

They didn't want them. They could feel it was their responsibility and they couldn't. So to draw these kinds of comparisons and parallels, I think it's uncommon and it's dangerous. I think it's very reasonable that history could lead us down the wrong road in a very quick hurry when we look to history to see how history might repeat itself. Servants of the Lord,

On the board, we need the prayers of God's children. We've been asked to serve in a very difficult time. The enemy of the soul in the scenes of division, unrest. And to our congregations, we've been asked to seek all the brothers to serve. Bury them in the prayers

It's a kingdom of weak travelers, weak sinners. All of us just want to make it home someday. May God help us. May God grant repentance for those who are struggling. May God reveal to them where their paths are leading them.

They aren't leading. The paths that are leading the string are not coming closer. But I would prefer that God's people are prayerfully asking that God would allow them this future. Brothers and sisters, I hesitantly speak of these matters. These are the, this is the psalm of my life.

I place myself in the care of each of you. I also [need] the [gospel; could] I believe my own sins [and] faults [forgiven]? Grant, can you go to the other side to meet with Joe and then grant me a prayer behind you?

I have a few thoughts that

I have it on my mind, certainly since the annual meeting, and certain thoughts that have been betrayed today that all of these discussions or decisions are going to be based on the Word, and the Word

Discrediting one thought, one comment that I read from some letter about healings or spirits. A spirit is a healing. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is in this congregation. I don't have understanding of doctrine. I don't have understanding

I try to simply teach the 7th grade Sunday school, and that's sometimes hard enough. That's how deep my understanding is. But I rely on the congregation and the spirit that's in this congregation to affect in me comfort, but also warning. And then when that spirit speaks a warning to my conscience and script, yeah, I don't like that.

It's a feeling, but it guides me back to what's important, what insinuates. I've had this picture of the congregation, the congregation that is Rockford. Many of us are these timid sheep, especially during times

So we live today with unrest and division it feels, and we feel it today in this discussion. I feel it today in this discussion. I shouldn't say we, but I feel there's a difference. I don't know doctrine or what justification is or what, but I feel there is something different.

I mean, it feels like, like I said, it's that spirit, the Holy Spirit that's in this congregation, which is God. And us as sheep, tentative sheep, when we hear this other voice, I can't put exactly my thumb on what that is.

I don't want to go chase down what that sound is. I don't want to go find out what that is. It scares me. I'm too weak. And I trust the Spirit of God works in this congregation, that the Spirit has put our board and has asked the board to serve and to work, and that their meetings

are led by the Holy Spirit. I trust that the decisions they have made have been made on the Holy Spirit, and I trust that. I don't need anything more. I can simply trust that God is working through brothers to do the work of God's Kingdom.

I continue to trust. Yeah, I visit. Jer is a good friend of mine. We visit and we try for heaven and for all of us. How do we go forward this evening today? I'm not excited.

That we can again feel that unity in this congregation that we haven't felt for a long time. God is powerful and I trust that it's in His time what happens. I'm hopeful that these matters, whatever it is that is causing this unrest or this

And then as far as with Craig, I would agree, or I agree with the spirit, but I agree with those speeches that have been said thus far, that my spirit hasn't always answered what he has spoken. I don't know the deep depths of doctrine, so I can't criticize or know what's right or what's wrong

I trust that if the board is visit with them, they have concern that, as Jer wrote in his board report, that there is not unity of the speakers. I trust that. And as a congregation member, it's my obligation to care for Craig, and it's the best instruction that we can do as a congregation is to ask him to rest. I support that.

You've had a long meeting already today that I have to say I'm thankful for it. Even though it's not easy, I feel like there's been freedom and it hasn't been judgmental.

And that's what we need to do. And one portion that's familiar to us that they wanted to read was where all rights and

Where he says that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. And when we think of these fruits as they are, fruits which come forth through a child of God, come forth from the Holy Spirit within us, and it's good that we

And where we may caution not to base important decisions on the feelings, think that when the things come from the Holy Spirit, it is okay to express them. Brother Harri, in the presentation at that April 13th board members workshop, where he spoke about the work of the Holy Spirit in the congregation,

He uses an example that's so familiar to many of us, where when we meet a brother or sister, one that we may not have even known before, it doesn't take long to feel the unity of the Spirit. That's how the Spirit works.

Brothers and sisters, even though we've spoken much about the importance of the Word, the Word being the highest authority, and I also agree with that, and it too is a good reminder that we can really speak how we feel, even though we may not be able to put the verse of Scripture to it at the moment.

We're continuing this reminder of God's Word. God's Word being the highest authority. Again, we agree, I certainly agree with that. And we need to be reminded to turn to God's Word. But when we've spoken so much about that, I feel that there's also an

I do feel that God's word has been a part of our discussions. It hasn't been forgotten. It's been the basis of our discussions.

And when I think of this matter of Finland, a question was asked of me some months ago, don't you think we need some help or faith teaching? And in the discussion I realized the individual was referring to help from Finland.

And my answer was this. I thought about it, that for sure I want to accept whatever help God gives us. And certainly if that's how he directs us, I want to accept that and pray that God will help us in whatever way he feels is best. But when we consider this time that it is amazing how close we are

To our brethren in Finland and also other parts of the world in this time that we live. When we think of Finland, we have brothers coming here three times a year, serving in our congregations. We have speakers going there that many times, serving in Finland.

We publish regularly many articles from Finland that are translated and in our voices. We also publish as many books as we can translate with the resources we have from Finland. A year ago last October we had a special Bible camp

And we had two brothers from Finland who came to participate in the camp. We used their lessons, their presentations, published them in the Voices, and used them in the congregations, and even at the large winter and summer services. And I appreciate their teaching. The doctrinal book that was released last year is being translated

Month by month and will soon be available in a book. Our ministers go together with ministers from Finland several times a year

I just have to say that I don't feel there's a difference in Finland. I don't feel that the teaching is different there than here. I don't feel that the teaching understanding that they have hasn't been here. I do question whether it's been received and believed and heard.

Nevertheless, I still say, God guides us in that way to have that kind of help. I do want to embrace and accept it.

Earlier there were speeches. I hope it's okay to say that I agree with the brothers in the sense that they said the thoughts that I had in my mind. I was thinking, and the question was asked, well, what are the issues? And Ethan, I think, nicely spoke to those questions. And our brother Rick also spoke, as I felt,

About this matter or understanding around forgiveness seems to be a real key matter, at least to me and from what I hear. And it came to light again just a couple of days ago. As a matter of fact, I saw it yesterday. Our sister, one of our sisters earlier mentioned in our discussion about a communication that has been sent to some in our congregation. They too received it.

And it, like often, has many, many good parts that can say, yes, that certainly is true and good to speak, but there were portions that left me a little bit uneasy and uncomfortable. One statement was made in there. I think I remember it pretty accurately. It said that although

We believe, although a child of God believes that all of his sins are already forgiven before God, he still desires to hear the gospel and goes to the gospel many times and so on.

I have to say I struggle here and I guess that's where we say we need more discussion. We certainly need that. Because this raises right away for me many questions about all my sins are already forgiven before God. It is the purpose of the Gospel.

And yet the gospel is so, so important. I know that I have not heard anybody say that they don't believe they need the gospel. But yet somehow this kind of a backdrop or preface to the gospel seems to put it in a different place than I say it's not how I've understood or believed. It's not how I feel comfortable.

Lastly, I want to read just a few verses from Luke 24 because I've thought so much in these times how Jesus spoke to his disciples when he appeared to them after his resurrection and before his ascension.

He gathered with them, and they gave him a piece of fish and of a honeycomb, and he took it, and he ate before them. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures, and said unto them,

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations,

Brothers and sisters, this is our mission. This is what Jesus commanded us to do, to go forth and preach the witness of sins through the power of the Holy Spirit.

It's what sets us apart from all these other churches, the worldly churches that also believe in Luther and Lutheran doctrine. They don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't believe and preach in the forgiveness of sins in this way. We aren't the same as those churches that have the Holy Spirit. It is here today, and this is how we have been taught

And how, at least I say, I believe. And as Sister mentioned earlier, of the time of [Raattamaa] and the origin of these words, preaching forgiveness in Jesus' name and precious blood. It's true, perhaps, that that's when this exact phrase came to be. But we notice here with Jesus,

All those who believe in the remission of sins should be preaching in His name. So certainly when we say that we're preaching forgiveness in Jesus' name, Jesus' name in the Bible may not be the exact words, but it is in the Bible. It is scriptural. That's how we preach and believe. I ask, how can I believe when I'm sinful?

Take the microphone to the back. Is that Anderson back there?

I don't think I remember exactly what I was going to say when I originally raised my hand, but I'll try. The whole thing was, I just felt like when someone was telling Jer he shouldn't have, maybe he said what was probably believed.

Just, I feel that Jer was answering a question when someone asked, what were the different experiences you guys had heard? So I don't feel that that was necessarily bad that he did that, because someone asked, what were the different experiences you heard? So I just want to thank Jared. I didn't see anything useful for myself. I don't believe that. Another thing is, just, I would like to show

The board, who I support 100%, I support the work they do, and I don't feel they're pushing any of this. I'm not sitting here working until, you know, I don't believe that we all here believe the same way. If we did, we wouldn't have these discussions. Until we all believe the same way, and the communities we serve, there won't be divisions.

We can't just agree so that we can get along. If we don't have the same faith and the same spirit, we won't agree, or we won't move the same way as much as we want to. Those matters of each individual person need to be in direct order. And that's what's the most important thing for each of us. To step back and say, am I battling against God's kingdom?

Am I trying to be obedient to the voice of [Zion] even if I don't understand? And that's the most important thing. And I, to Craig, my heart hurts for you and your family to be in this position, yet to my, the greatest love we can show to somebody.

It's to care for their soul. And I hope and pray that if it's the will of the congregation, it may ask you to rest. Because confusion has caused that you can't be obedient. God will bless if you wish to be obedient and to believe. And we all will support you and your family and

That's a prayer of all of us. I, as an individual, I have felt so concerned that he feels that no personal, no will or bad feelings in prayer. I love him as a dear brother in faith. He's a precious believer, a friend, and I hope that if he didn't rest and

You all heard, as I said, we're going to be showing what's correct, what's not, what would be in the right place, and we can simply believe from wherever we've been called or asked to simply mention, preach, or teach, or whatever it is, but that it's God's will and we would accept that. And I have many, many fears and doubts, but I can agree with that so much.

Yeah, I just need to speak here shortly. So, I've been thinking a lot on what the issues are, where all this mess is coming from. And it's, we've, I guess I've talked to my parents, and I, when all this stuff first came out, I'd hear stuff from other people, and I,

I, at one point, I gotta admit that I wasn't edifying other people. I was talking about things that I thought I knew. And I realized that I was completely wrong. And I think that has happened with a lot of different people as well. But the main, the only thing that I see that's

What's going on with all of this is there's really prideful men who have been wrong on either, if it's the robe, the robe of righteousness being here. And one person that I can say who was wrong on this was Eric [surname unclear]. It's not that I know that.

He's, I don't know how to say it, but to edify the congregation, him and Jouko, I believe, were up in Wolf Lake, attacking these guys, saying it's stained and all this, and then they realized that they were wrong. And they didn't walk up in front of the congregation and say, hey, we're wrong.

There's always an excuse. It's always, well, I don't know about this. Well, it's just like, man, I'm going to say you're wrong. We've all been wrong. I'm wrong 95% of the time. But that's where all of these issues are stemming. No one wants to stand up, be a man, and say, hey, I'm wrong.

Instead, it's throw a blame on someone else that he's speaking this, he's doing that. Well, if you don't understand it, keep your mouth shut. Don't go and... And another thing that just drives me up the wall is the self-humility of us weak, poor servants. I've heard it over and over, but yet,

Being that poor and weak as you are, you can go and tell another speaker, hey, sit down. It doesn't even make sense. And another question, too, that I heard, and I'm going to speak, I'm going to speak in freely, I have no filter, so I apologize if I offend anyone. But, for Craig's sake, I don't know, I've never talked to him.

And I honestly don't care if he sits or if he speaks, but when I hear people saying, like I believe it was the last comment earlier, saying there's a problem if he's not sitting down when he's being told, well, I've told the [board] to sit down.

I've heard Jeremy say himself he's weak and doesn't want to do it. But then when someone says, okay, you said, they come up with an excuse. It's a double standard. None of this is even, it's just ludicrous. All of it. It's all spiritual talk, spiritual bad. It's garbage. We all know how we believe.

You either believe your sins are forgiven or you don't. And yes, when you have fallen into sin, you do want to go talk to someone. But all this convoluted garbage is gold. And I just have to...

Did it stop that doubt before? But yeah, that really is my thought. All of that, everyone just needs to just cut the garbage and just be. Andy, Skoog has a couple touches. You're right. Yeah, that's right.

I do have to say that I do support our work. The Holy Spirit has been present in these discussions. We need to listen. And if you don't hear the Holy Spirit and His Word,

I was going to ask you, Craig, what are your thoughts? You've heard many of us speak. Do you need to take a rest? What are your thoughts right now? I'll respond to that, Craig, or you can hold on to it, brother. Feel free to, brother. If you don't have thoughts, don't pressure yourself to speak.

Okay, coming up towards the front, Lisa Johnson and Tammy Anderson.

First of all, I'm not speaking, but for people that want to hear, for people that don't talk, this would be meaningful. I was just thinking that I hope everybody realizes that the Holy Spirit is what Jesus sent when he left. It's the great comforter, and it's what we feel. And when our spirit says amen to a speech,

It's a real thing. It's not, oh, that's just some feeling you have. That's what God gave us. Jesus left it here for us. So, if you want to

I just want to tell the board that I do support you 100%. You have such a hard job. Our speaker brothers, I support you. Craig, if I was you, I would feel that I should step down because

People have spoken to you and it seems like if your heart is humble, that's the first thing you think of is that, you know, yeah, you should sit in the bench and listen as a child of God, which is what we want you to be. And we want everybody here to be.

With all forgiveness.

So I speak to little kids all day for five days a week, but I'm only taking the mic to just express my thoughts. And I just ask that, can we go to grad school?

One of my favorite songs is 301 and it's been kind of going through my mind. It relates to what several people have said now about the Spirit's voice and I'm just going to read the last verse. It said, It's not an earthquake or a storm. It's not a war or a fire. It's nothing that the flesh and mind would honor or desire.

Come, dear weakest one, rejoice. The Spirit's small and tender voice can carry you to heaven. And like several people have said, I've heard that small and tender voice in many different ways this afternoon and evening. One of the first things I've thought about is when people are asking for specifics in regards to

Craig or whomever. I think back to like when I'm on committees at work, one of our protocols is that discussion is private and decisions are public. And I also think about the fact that if I go and confess my sins to somebody, I would want them to be a sealed vessel. And I wouldn't want them to be discussing everything that I say. And I feel like the

Referring back to this verse that a lot of voices that I've heard, some of the voices I've heard today have been more like an earthquake or a storm with warm and angry tone to them. And yet there's those that I have, I've heard that small and tender voice many times as well.

And I just think back to a couple of examples. I think back when we chose Jouko as the full-time pastor, and we didn't do it by ballot, we didn't do it by raise of hands, but we stood. And I will never forget that moment of standing up. It was a small and tender voice that spoke. There were actually no words. There was a feeling.

And I, in response to somebody who said that we should start fresh over with the board, I support the board and their decisions. I think part of my feeling is that the

Trust isn't there for the board. And again, I feel like that small and tender voice is agreeing with what they're saying. And I think that's why it's important to come to annual meetings, because we did choose board members. And again, I remember thinking, because we voted to vote by our raised hands, and we haven't done that for years.

Since I've been coming to annual meetings and been a formal member, I've always done it by ballot. And I remember when I was a little kid, they would do raise of hands. And I had this fear when we said we were going to do a raise of hands, because I thought, why are we doing this? But there again, it was overwhelming, that small and tender voice.

Those that were chosen. So I think it's important that if you have concerns, you come to an annual meeting because that's where the decision is made and board members are chosen by the congregation.

I also thought about when people have been asking what are the matters and where is the confusion, I've also heard that small and tender voice today. It's been presented by many different people in many different ways. And to me it's been very clear.

The other thought I had is that to me it's a little ironic that people suggest that we should refer to God's Word, which, as we mentioned before, is what's spoken from the pulpit. Yet when we say people are saying we should refer to the Bible and to God's Word, then they back their statements up or their comments up with articles or books, different things that, yes, may be based on God's Word,

The support for those statements isn't always directed from the Bible. And then also, I had the opportunity just recently to spend two weeks in Finland. And I have to say that at our annual meeting when the idea of bringing Finnish brothers here, I just had such a stomachache because I knew I was making this trip and I was just thinking like,

I don't understand where this is coming from because there would be nothing wrong with Finnish brothers coming, but this isn't just a Rockford situation, it's throughout the area, it's throughout God's kingdom where these two different voices are speaking.

It was my 20th opisto reunion as part of my trip, so I hadn't been to Finland for 20 years. It was amazing to me because

Some of my oldest friends that I have not seen for 20 years and I haven't been in contact with were a couple that I have not talked to or messaged or emailed or sent letters for 18 years. And when we met one another,

I had some really deep conversations with them about faith that, and there's a language barrier a little bit because my fin is extremely rusty after so many years, but I can't even express in words how, again, there was that small and tender voice that was responding between the both of us. We're from different countries, we have different cultures, but

That spirit was definitely there. And then at my opisto reunion, there was a discussion and I asked for one of the Americans there who also is very earnest, speaks Finnish at home, so she did a good job translating, but I asked her to please translate for me because I was

Just knowing what's going on here, I just really was hungry to hear what would be discussed in this discussion across the ocean, away from Rockford. Would there be a difference? Would it be the same? And again, I can't express the

Again, it was a feeling of amazement that there are some of the same issues, that some of the issues are different, but the response and discussions was the same. So I just, for myself, I hope that I can always hear this small and tender voice, and I pray that

Everyone is able to listen, as Sandy said earlier, and be able to still hear this small and tender voice. Mike, pass the mic back, I'm actually down to the windows for the brand.

There was an introduction to a presentation in 2010 by . I'll just read two sections from there that I found interesting.

So the first section is titled, The Bible is Above the Congregation. Wuollet wrote, Wuollet wrote, wrote in his study in 1965, called The Infallible Kingdom. Yet we, we yet believe and teach that the Bible is the highest authority according to which all teachings are to be examined and judged. No other authority can be raised to the level of the Bible. We must therefore reject the claim that in conservative custodianism the congregation would be raised even above the Bible.

And the second section is Obedience to Instructions. In the congregation, we examine the Bible in the light of the Holy Spirit, where it has been written. In this sense, we can speak about the instructions of the congregation, but there are many edifying instructions for the congregation in the teachings of Christ and in the epistles of the apostles. They are not the law for a believer, but the gospel of Christ's instructions, which embolden and lead the weak traveler on the way to heaven.

There's also reason today to listen to the instructions of the congregation that are based on the Bible. The instructions are not founded on scriptures. They are not instructions of the congregation. And I feel like, from that portion, I feel like I stepped to the word, the scriptures, and I feel like I should keep speaking.

[crosstalk] ... for some reason my arm shot up when Eric gave a speech.

And it's with much sadness that it felt like, almost like a knife was stabbed into my heart. I've enjoyed playing hockey with Eric for many years. I've enjoyed playing tennis with him. But to hear such a speech, I have to admonish Eric and say that was not a speech from the Holy Spirit.

You need to examine where your words are coming from and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide your words in the future. I think we need to be free, and this is a good place to be free, but it's also very important that we hear, we heed the words that we hear, the words in response.

And from my own standpoint, and I'm sure I speak for many, there was much to be disturbed of in that speech. When I hear words like garbage and spirit in the same word, the Holy Spirit is God. And how do we proceed with life without the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is what guides us.

We can't minimize, as we've heard so many times, so many things minimize the Holy Spirit, our dashboards, all of these tools of prayer that God has given us to help us reach that heavenly goal. We have to be very, very careful about how strong we come across on some of these things, the accusations,

The board stepped down. The congregation has voted these board members. Is there no trust in the congregation? The congregation has placed those board members there. It's not, they didn't just appear there. It has the moral confidence in our placing them there. And I find myself in complete support with the board. All of the faith-based discussions that I've had with board members

They have left me with a feeling of complete unity. So I don't, when I hear concerns about, say for example, Craig's position as a minister, I have great trust in the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is present in our board members.

And there have been issues around Craig for a number of years. I have always had very nice conversations with Craig, you know, in the past. It's been most of the time not faith-based, but just a good, friendly conversation.

I hold Craig as a dear brother and he has indicated in his speech that he is perfectly willing to do as the congregation desires. And I think it's clear that there are questions and concerns around Craig. I personally myself have heard kind of a

I'd say a morphing of Craig's understanding of forgiveness over the last couple of years. And I think it's a good thing that, you know, if we don't have the correct understanding, we, with time and teaching, do move in the direction of the correct understanding. And from, as many others have said, I found comfort in Craig's

The speech this morning, certainly. But it does appear as if it would be good for Craig and I think good for the congregation and God's kingdom if Craig were to rest for a while. And some others have said that it's not, you know, it's not a bad thing. And I think we need to encourage and support

And it's not, and many ministers have stepped down over time and it's,

As many have said, it's not based upon one person that's being [removed] or whether or not, you know, in particular, an individual continues to speak. So, and I, myself personally, I find it very uncomfortable when the congregation is forced to, you know, forced to the point where they have to make a vote.

I think it seems fairly predictable when there's conversion around somebody and much discussion. It seems like it's, you know, the Spirit is guiding that maybe it's time to take a rest. And just one other thing that a little bit bothered me because it seems like when a person is darkened that

It becomes very, very, very difficult to get through. And I think of some of my conversations at work over many years. There's many people that call themselves Christians and have discussions with them and can find much agreement.

But it is almost invariable that if that conversation gets at all deep, there's two things that come up that there's almost no recognition of, no knowledge, no understanding, and that is the forgiveness of sins

There seems to be complete darkness on those people's part. And it's really hard to even discuss with them without having that very, very basic tenet to work with them. And that's what has me so concerned when I hear some of these speeches that I worry that has the Holy Spirit left them?

And, you know, when that Holy Spirit is gone, how do they get understanding? And, you know, certainly it's not going to come from themselves. And will God have that love and patience to call them back? And I think there's so many that seem to be confused and on the fence and wondering

If you can put your trust, humble yourself, put your trust in the Holy Spirit, and be obedient to the Kingdom. If you find yourself fighting against the Kingdom, I don't know any other way to describe it, but that's what it seems to me. It seems to me that there's a number of people out there that find themselves fighting against the Kingdom.

There's no comfort. There are words.

Their position, their feelings, it doesn't sound like they're comfortable. And they're not comfortable, you can tell by their speech. So, I would encourage all to put their trust in God and the Holy Spirit. Christ died for our sins, and what a shame for us to not be able to use that gospel.

Did Christ die in vain if we're not able to use that gospel to believe our sins were forgiven? But I myself find myself so inadequate that I have my own sins forgiven. Let's go right back to Craig. Craig, it's your turn to speak now. Pass it back to Rose.

I came here this afternoon not knowing where to go, but also wanted to trust that it is God who guides and God who leads.

I am the righteousness of the Son that any of us would be heaven acceptable, and I believe that and trust that. I also trust that God has given His Spirit here to dwell among men. That Spirit does speak by and through God. I trust that and I believe that.

It's clear to me also that whether I'm serving or not serving doesn't solve the issues. It's also clear that some would support me to continue serving and some would encourage me to rest. It's also clear that it would be uncomfortable to pass the congregation poll.

So for all of those reasons and still wanting to trust and believe that I can be buried as a child in God's kingdom, I'm willing to take that risk. It's apparent to me that that's how this should go. I just want to say also that my concerns on the issues of today revolve around both sides of the issues.

This is a portion of God's Word that came to mind in 1 John 3. Hereby receive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brethren at need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, out dwelleth the love of God in him.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. We love it. If our heart condemn us not, then we have confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him.

I don't sit here today, we often have doubts, as we do on the journey, but I don't sit here today feeling that I'm outside of God's kingdom, not in the love of God.

And that my assurance and confidence of faith is not of myself. That through the righteousness of Christ I can stand and believe, including my own sins forgiven. And the Gospel assures me of that as often as I need it. And I can't prove my faith to anyone, but yet I want to also be obedient,

The congregation, I don't want to be the cause of mistrust, confusion. So it would seem good that I would take that rest. But the matters that are troubling God's kingdom are not resolved here tonight, it's clear.

I was glad that Mike took the opportunity to address what Eric said. Eric, I have to agree with Mike, that speech came from your flesh. These are the things that we deal with. I've also heard other speeches that are clear to me that confusion around forgiveness and what Luther calls divine forgiveness, justification by faith,

It's not a clear matter, and it probably never will be a perfectly clear matter to everybody. So many discussions go on, and the concerns that I personally have are around both sides of that. Without that, there has been undue criticism and

Unfair examination that has not stemmed for just one second has happened to both. May God help us all and open up these matters to each of us, first of all personally, that I can believe, and then that we have carried out love one for another.

The voice of the Spirit is a peaceful, calming voice. It's not accusing. So may God help us to care for those offenses. I know for my own self it's been a struggle because not all things have been said about myself and my wife and my family.

I want to prevent, in my own self, a sense of frustration and maybe even bitterness at times. And I want to care for those matters, even with all of you here today, and ask that, can I still believe in those thoughts and sense of forgiveness? I'm going to ask the first question.

Craig and Diana are in love with the congregation and will continue to be so. Can we take, let's see, Rod Nicola is next on the list. Back to Rod. Rod is in the back. We don't have too much more to say.

I say that Craig and Diana, we remember you all in prayer. May God help and protect you in faith, each and every one of us, in faith that one day, faith would change to sin and we would be gathered there on the shores of heaven, having a beautiful discussion and perhaps remembering how on this day God helped us

In some small way, take another step to this day as a child in his kingdom. Thoughts that came to my mind as we have had this discussion today and there have been many speeches and many thoughts. I thought the Act of Ricks opening sermon when he talked about ABCs of faith

We have this sermon on what he called just the A. But it also reminded me of confirmation schools and teaching for our young. In our confirmation, we spend the first day talking about God, our Creator.

And what he has done for us. The second day we talk about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, the Son of God, and what he has done for us. On the third day, we talk about the Holy Spirit. At Palm Prayer, which we have heard about here today,

And as we enter that third day, we have a graphic that we show the students how God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three in one. We may belong together, but we don't separate. When we come together, we need all to be one.

The enemy's souls, I think, would want us to try to separate these out somehow. But the Word of God teaches us it is a triune God. It is three in one. And as I listened to discussions here today, I thought in this way that someone mentioned that this is God's path.

And it means the whole system. Trying to bring the love in the congregation, we can see that there has been one. We can see that there are divisions among us. It causes sadness. But yet, we know this is God's plan. I've wondered, you know, how

How can we find again that unity that we enjoyed for so many years when I think how God has so richly blessed our kingdom here since those days of the last heresy. How it's not before that time of the heresy how so many who are young, left living faith, went into the world

And how, in these last four years, how precious it has been that so many of our young have been preserved in faith, not through great understanding, but through the simple message of the gospel and believing, trusting in that Holy Spirit that dwells in the congregation to lead and guide.

But I think also, sadly, many of us have noticed now in these recent times, within our own family, how there have been those who have lost that gift of living faith. The battle in God's kingdom has casualties, brothers and sisters.

We don't want to confuse our young. We don't want to confuse ourselves. And I think it has been said several times here today, the importance of keeping faith and good conscience. Not that it would be over, but to take care of those sins that set us every day.

Those things that can be, like Rick mentioned, those rocks that build up in our backpack and drag us down and cause us to doubt and cause us to worry, cause us to begin to make the battle of ours. So I recently read a scripture from John chapter 10, verses 27 to 28.

Perhaps it even answers some of the questions here about is it a feeling or is it a sort of that. But it says simply, hear these words of Jesus. I speak, hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall I be man, but the love of my hand.

So, preciously simple in Jesus, teach in this way. And when our sins are forgiven, and the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us, we hear his voice. Not my voice, not your voice, we hear his voice.

Answers to our spirit. When we leave from service to service with brothers and sisters in faith, when the voice of the spirit has been present, we have rejoiced. It's felt good to leave from there. It's felt good to be in services. It's felt good to visit with brothers and sisters in unity of the spirit.

May God bring again that unity to our congregation. May he give each one of us strength. Put away those sins, and be wrong understandings, and even harsh words that we've said one to another. Put them away in Jesus' name, my blood, to begin.

Extra bun? Sitting on the cart, my wife handed them all to me. I'm like, this is heavy. I'll take one. Yeah, go ahead. Feel free.

I don't have no hands. No problem, you're welcome. It's not grabbing?

Just a couple of thoughts here. It's interesting how the

Discussion can change when you raise your hand 45 minutes ago. I did a turn to speak here, but one of the thoughts that I had was the trial that we've had over the last two or three years, whatever it is, it's the silver lining of the meeting that it's me to examine.

In my own faith, how do I believe? I think that there wasn't a time of complacency or laziness or whatever where you're just cruising along. I think there was probably periods in my life where I hadn't really listened to a sermon.

You know, for months, right, you're too busy just kidding around the bench. You know, you don't believe me. You've heard it, but you didn't listen, or whatever your concerns are. So, you know, it gets, you know, my bench is getting a little quieter now, so I do have the ability to focus, which is, which is a bit good. But,

You know, and I think, you know, if I could summarize how I believe in, like, one line is, we're saved through faith in the current works of Jesus Christ, and we use tools like confession and gospel to help preserve our faith. And fundamentally, I think that's how we all believe, and then we get here now with the e-bills or rumor bills or whatever it is that's been coming out.

For all of us, faith is personal. No one can give it. No one can take it away as well. One of my friends recently said that we should be like an adult but believe like a child. We don't want to believe simply, but we want to at least have understanding of the power of faith.

And I think in a lot of, like any issue, there is human element in this. I don't think we can overlook it or diminish it. I think if you, after I speak here, you ask my people what I say, you get five different angles. What I actually said before, what I meant, what my intention was, that all humans have our own bias.

I think it's nearly impossible to hear or see without, how do you, it's how we're raised, it's our culture, it's our background, it's what we saw, what we heard last week that conditions us to see and interpret something a certain way, and unfortunately that's a lot of misunderstandings come about, and some of them are, you know,

But if you have rumors, because of someone's interpretation, whatever, that's kind of a area of frustration for me. You'll see or have heard something, and then you'll hear five different stories on that same event, and you're like, wow, that's not the last time. So I think we need to be aware of our own filters, our own biases, and how we see and hear things as well. You know that?

[inaudible] Come to the front, Grant. Tracy.

Well, I was going to say it was Mike, but my hand just kind of went up, and Mike's been pretty blank ever since, so I was going to sneak out, but you saw my hand. So, anyways.

One thing that I remember striking me is that I thought, well, there were a couple of comments about the spirit being clear or something, and I felt like that's something I struggled with, or I understand the

I'm worried about picking that element of it. I think I worry about that for myself. I worry about going into a situation with somebody that maybe I've heard something about

And I worry that, am I going to make prejudgments about them? Am I going to decide what they're saying before they say something? Am I going to put them into a certain camp? Am I going to disregard what they say? Am I going to read into it? So to me, it's not super clear and it does worry me. It gives me some anxiety that

I think I said before, I'm floating in no man's land by myself, but I think that if we

If we can all focus on being humble and when we go into certain situations or we have conversations or even if we come away wondering about something that we just don't necessarily jump to conclusions and don't

Discuss further with other people before discussing or asking for clarification from somebody maybe we feel like we didn't understand. I have thought

Because I've had some situations where I've come away feeling a little unsettled, and I've tried to say, okay, well, maybe they just, things didn't come across right, and whatever, and I've thought, well, maybe that is actually the spirit, and I'll tuck away those feelings and try not to read into it too much, and it's important.

I'm asking God to guide me, but it will guide me, and if it's not important, it won't come up again, and I don't need to think about it. I don't need to worry about it. I don't know if that's a good strategy or not, but it's brought me comfort coming from a place where I don't feel things super strong.

I'm, of course, hearing some things about the board. I'm worried. Are they getting too high on the horse? And I thought Jeremy came from a place of humbleness and humility, and I felt really grateful to have him. Thank you, my friend. I felt anxious.

What he said tonight has come from a place of humility, and I feel great about that. Nothing's clear to me. My other thing that struck me was, I can't remember already exactly how it went, but Eric's comment about the spirit and can't we just be

And I thought, well, isn't that where the garbage comes from? Is that we are human. We are us. We are sinful. And I don't think that he's saying that's fine. I trust that he's not, that's not what he's saying. But I thought it is just a good reminder that we should try to be humble and

So, one last conference check over here, and then we'll ask Ray to take the evening.

While the mic is running over there, I came here tonight also with many doubts and fears, and even moderating tonight. Here, grab it. I will speak for myself, but I think I also can speak for the half of the congregation here tonight.

First of all, speaking personally, I came to this meeting knowing that the topic of your service was going to be discussed. And I really didn't know. But when you made your request, I stepped aside. My heart said, Amen.

That's not an easy request to make. When one has been asked and placed into the service of the work of God's kingdom and the work that is near to you, it's not easy to either make that request

But as I said, what did my heart do to make that request? My heart simply said, Amen. And as a congregation member, I would want to thank you for your service in this capacity and others through the years. We had the opportunity to serve together years ago on the youth committee.

I always remember those days. As I know both of us can relate, there's much blessing at work. We feel we often get more, we receive more than we give. And then also for reasons that we don't always understand,

There's a time when the turn of service begins, and there's a time when that service ends. And so it is. May it obey all those turned to service, even. Not for our own, but for the building, the edification, the congregation to the saving of souls.

I want to assure you, you and your family, that tonight, just as sure as you found, as your turn of service, as a servant of the word began, I'm sure in that time, you found how you were deeply enclosed into the character of God.

And I want to assure you tonight that care and love is still there. And you are caring in many parts, you and your family. Now and in days to come.

We acknowledge that there's still discussion to be had, but I think we leave it now with that the board can discuss this further. I would encourage you brothers and sisters to also visit the board members about where we go from here. How is unity restored?

The congregation and these types of things. With that, I think I'll turn it over to Rand to give us some comments also and close the evening for us.

Your opportunity. I pray to self.

We are experiencing the times that we are. None of us can fully explain it. I'm sure you, like me, have asked the question, always, that we've

Come to this point, perhaps the doubts and fears that we be united in words of the

133rd Psalm come to mind with that. A prayer to my heart. That it could be so.

Behold how good, how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity.

It is like precious ointment on the head that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard, that went down to the skirts of his garments. This the new of her own.

And as the dew then descended upon the mountains of Zion, there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life forevermore. I have

Fond memories of the beginnings of our [Rockford] congregation. A time of unity and joy. A time of oneness of mind and heart and spirit.

I'm of work, God richly blessed. The congregation has grown to what it is today and how God has blessed us with this facility and all of the

Joys that we've experienced together over the years. A knowledge that we've heard this evening and experienced over the last few years that this unity is not the same. We have

Divisions and confusion. We know that God is not the author of confusion, but he is the author of peace and unity that I believe each one of us, no matter where we are on these questions, also desire.

That unity. And as we found, and as our brother Donovan spoke earlier, of the humanness and the human element in these things, it's so close to us. We find ourselves lacking in all things, in so many ways.

And then these discussions. But this portion here spoke of that precious ointment and oil that the priests were anointed with in preparation for their service.

And it also spoke of the dew of Hermon that descended upon the mountains of Zion. Pictures of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. We live of the Gospel

And we are guided by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. These are connected, the Spirit and the Word, so that we can't separate them. The Spirit gives life, quickens the Word,

And we need the word and we need the spirit. May God help us to, in brotherly love, continue to discuss one with another. And I encourage you and encourage first myself to even speak to those who you might think that, you know,

Have the same understanding and visit in such a way that you can just freely, in Christian freedom, speak your heart, soul, and how you understand things. Not in a confrontational way, but with the mind and love of Christ one toward another,

I think that this bears fruit and each of us needs that kind of a humble heart to not only speak but also listen to one another. God can bless these conversations.

And we humbly seek his guidance and help in those. And let us yet hold onto that hope and trust that God could yet open these matters to us in such a way that no one would be lost on the way.

And I want to say to your brother Craig and [Diana] that that humbleness of heart and humility that you've expressed this evening will serve you well

Will not harm you, but will keep you in the midst of God's kingdom. To trust that all of these things God knows and that he can help them. May it be so that

We can all be preserved in the unity of the spirit and the bond of the spirit. The first gift is love, one for another. And the work of the enemy that he is doing so diligently to separate us would not

Fulfill that goal that he has to see undying souls. We could all be preserved in this living faith, living hope of heaven in our hearts. But I feel my sinfulness and ask that can I get to leave my many sins and fall through them?

I want to simply leave the place of a child. I want to assure each of you this evening that you can lift up your hearts to believe. [Believe] all sins forgiven in [Jesus]' name [and blood]. All sins are forgiven in [Jesus]' name [and blood].

This is our power, the power of the gospel that will lead and guide each of us to the home in heaven. And it is that power that will reflect the onslaught of the enemy. And we can trust in that power. May God help us.

Let us close our evening in thanksgiving and prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, we thank thee for this day and for thy word. We thank you that you have been with us and that you have been speaking unto us.

Open our ears and our hearts to hear and to understand your will. Preserve each of us as your children. Guide us to the narrow way of life. Help us in these matters to love one another,

Speak to one another, discuss the way of the journey of Christian freedom, and to yet put our trust in you and your living congregation and the power of the gospel of your Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Help us to

Read and to understand and to believe your word also. And to even honor on these matters of faith and also of doctrine, the doctrine of your Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. These we know are important for our endeavor

But, as has been said, it remains in believing. Help each of us to believe and increase our weak faith. Let us all recite the Lord's foundation together. Lord, bless us and keep us. Lord, may His face shine upon us and be gracious unto us.

The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.