Colorado Congregation Meeting concerning Randy Lake's Teaching, August 25, 2019

This evening, I am joining together with the Lord's Prayer. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our trespasses,

As we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For the honor of the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

For this evening I've been asked to give a brief devotion for this discussion which we have before us pertaining to, I'm sure as you all know, whether or not we would withhold a dear brother to continue in his services as a Bible class teacher, a Sunday school teacher. In the beginning I do say a dear brother.

It's not with much, or it's with much fears and shambles that come before you. I'm sure a brother does the same. The board also, as our chairman will give a brief update, will relate to.

We have asked, or we decided collectively to come to this question before the congregation. And I'm sure after we made that decision there was much trepidation and fear and second guessing whether or not we'd have a meeting and the right decision in these matters. So with these types of thoughts and feelings,

I thought to read from Return to God's Word, perhaps the last few days, come up with some text that would pertain to our situation this evening. I can't say that I've had come up with a text, many brief texts of the importance of God's Word. But I thought,

For a theme maybe, my mind has been turning again and again to the long-suffering of God and patience and humbleness. And reflecting on what God's long-suffering means to us and what it speaks to in the Bible, I don't know if there's many places in the scriptures that speak to this term, long-suffering, and might not use that same

We have other words for it. But we remember how even in the beginning of the early pages of the Bible, the narration of the story of Noah and the situation there, when Noah preached for 120 years or so in the wilderness, he doesn't speak of any repentances.

That happened during the time of 120 years, and we imagine how long Noah must have had to have great patience and long suffering to dutifully fulfill that work that was given to him, to preach this message of God's kingdom to that sinful world around him.

And how God also had much patience and long-suffering with his children there in the wilderness journey. Many times they were disobedient, and we could say they were stiff-necked, as the scripture also relates. But God was patient with his people and extended his long-suffering towards them. There are many other examples.

Long-suffering God towards his people. I think we need to remember this even in our situations that are new to many of us where we timidly come to consider matters of caretaking and structuring. And even Jesus, we remember how he

It was the perfect picture of patience and long-suffering. We remember even that time when he faced his tormentors and hung that awful death on the cross. All that ridicule and persecution that he physically and emotionally experienced. But he had that thought and that meaning.

Those words that forgive the father for they know not what they do. And Jesus in one of his parables even spoke in this way of that husband that had that tree that was not bearing fruit. He commanded his caretaker, or it says in that parable, his dresser, to cut down that tree.

It says in this way, a certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none. Cut it down. Why cumbereth it the ground?

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig it, promote it, and gum it. And if it bear fruit, well, and if not, then after that I shall cut it down. I think these words also encourage us, we come perhaps this evening even, for our impatience sometimes, wanting to find answers and the correct instruction.

And we pray that God will be blessed with good spirit even this evening. We perhaps even in our own minds are seeking an answer. It would be our prayer that God would even lead and guide us accordingly, but we may or may not even come to an answer this evening.

That's one thought I had in this portion of God's Word. It comforts me that, well, should we have an answer or should we not? I don't know. I think that we do desire instruction. We do desire wisdom. We also need patience towards our dear brother in faith. Along with long suffering,

Comes instruction and rebuke and correction. You know, God's Word also speaks of that. And we also, when we consider the instruction, caretaking of brothers and sisters in faith, we're also reminded what God's Word speaks. We often think that we are discussing matters and we have a personal

We need to realize that this is not the case when it comes to matters between God's children. Also, Paul reminds us in his letter to the Ephesians that where we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It's a good reminder that we would speak that which is on our mind and be free to speak. But we would also speak in the mind of love, gentle rebuke, reminders. Don't quench that which is on our mind if we have something we feel we need to speak that we'd be free to speak. But we would also consider that our words would be words

If necessary, words of rebuke or words with salt, but also mixed with grace and love, longsuffering. From the God's Word, the Book of Deuteronomy speaks,

It reminds us that all of us need this review and instruction in our life of faith. In the eighth chapter of Deuteronomy I'll read, starting from... Well, I will start, I guess, from the first verse.

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do that ye may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord square unto your fathers. And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments or no.

And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna which thou knowest not, neither did thy fathers know, that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord, and doth man live. Thy raiment wax not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell these forty years.

Thou shalt also consider in thine heart that as a man chastiseth his son, so the Lord thy God in chastiseth thee.

So here, God reminded of that wilderness journey and all those blessings and how he cared for and kept his children and his servant there on the wilderness journey. But he also reminded that it was also, even though Moses and God's children were his chosen people, there was also need for instruction. Maybe we can chastise them.

And the letter, the writer letter to the Hebrews also reminds us that for whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth, and scourges every son whom he receiveth. So here we're reminded as God's children, we also, at times in our endeavor of faith, need this instruction, chastisement. Then I also thought of this text from Exodus when

Moses and Aaron and Hur at that time of battle against the Amalekites and how God's kingdom has always been a kingdom of battle. I don't have a difficult time perhaps even thinking on how I could tie this to even this devotion but

It did keep coming up in my mind again and again. It's been a very comforting text to me in my life of faith. It has even become more of a comfort to me when I was asked to put up a speak. It was used during that service of ordination. Text of comfort for me in that time.

And it says, I'll read the 17th chapter of Exodus, beginning with the 8th verse. Then came Amalek and fought with Israel in Rephidim. And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men to go out and fight with Amalek. Tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

So Joshua did as Moses had said to him and fought with Amalek. Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. It came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed. And when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

But Moses' hands were heavy, and he took a stone and put it under him, and he sat there on. And Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, and the one on the one side, and the other on the other side. And his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. So here speaks to us

That power of prayer, I think, in one sense. How Moses and Aaron and Hur went up. It says how Moses lifted up his hands. I can picture in this sense, lifting up his hands.

I'm not very good at contextual background of Old Testament texts, but I do believe this position of prayer, the holding up of the hands, was in the Old Testament time how God's children turned and faced God in prayer. It was a position of openness, where their hands were let out into the sky, head raised towards heaven.

There's a picture of one turning to God and beseeching him for his wisdom and his guidance and his protection. And this is what Moses did there on the top of that mountain during that time of battle. There were many prayers, I'm sure, that he spoke on behalf of those battling, experiencing the physical torments of battle and persecution.

Against those Amalekites.

I believe those Amalekites were descendants of Esau. There was still that bitterness between God's children and the children of Esau. How that extended from that time when Esau and Jacob had that struggle over that birthright which Esau had forsaken.

And there was still that tension. There was even battles occurring. These Amalekites persecuted and went to war against the children of God. But also, it says how Aaron used that in addition to raising his hand, that he also had the rod of God in his hand.

And we can say that this rod of God is that rod of the gospel and staff of faith that we have. Sometimes I just struggle with what these analogies and pictures exactly mean.

I believe this rod of God, or Aaron's muddy rod, which was used to open the Red Sea when the children of Israel passed through. It was also used, I believe, to close those waters when the soldiers of Pharaoh decided to pass through after them. And it is this message of the Gospel

This grace and truth, we can say, sometimes it is used as it was during that time of battle to persecute those armies of the Pharaoh. But it is also that message of the Gospel that uplifts, sustains God's children through all their difficulties and struggles and battles.

So I think it is good for us to, even this evening, consider, I'm sure many prayers have been raised on behalf of our local congregation here, that we are being guided in wisdom, God's Spirit will be present, and we can trust

God's Spirit does guide His congregation. But also that we carry one another while we meet in prayer. We also take care of one another with this message of the Gospel, just as it sustained those there on that mountain, and they were victorious.

And also that rock which Moses sat there on and they placed under there, perhaps it's that picture of that spiritual rock which is Christ. You know, the Old Testament travelers drank from that rock which was a spiritual picture of Christ as the Apostle Paul even records of it. And we have all of those elements were there in that picture, in that text that we read from.

The power of prayer, the message of the gospel, and that foundation that there Moses sat on, which is our sure foundation, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who even this evening is present through his Holy Spirit. He is the head of this congregation and we are his members. And with the gospel of God,

Even as those children of Israel, when they came to the Red Sea, they began to fear because there was no way before them. Those armies of the Pharaohs were coming up behind them. There was no path before them.

With the power of the Gospel, we understand that the Red Sea was parted, and it is also with us today that the power of the Gospel has also opened the unknown path before us. I think in some senses, this is what we fear. We have situations like this that many of us have not experienced. I know I have, and I fear.

But also I have to trust that I even this evening want to uplift each and every one of you here this evening with that powerful message of the gospel that you can uplift your hearts and believe that sin is forgiven in Jesus' name through precious blood. It would be a good comfort. I too have many doubts and I ask that I have body sins forgiven.

In Jesus' name, Amen.

The same thoughts that Travis had. This has not been easy honoring the board members or ministers involved in these discussions. I personally had many fears and doubts honoring this meeting.

And it's with prayerful hearts that we ask our Heavenly Father to be present with us, blessing and guiding our meeting through His Holy Spirit. I guess Travis did allude to the topic of our meeting and discussion for this evening. It's to discuss whether our dear brother, Randy Lake, should be given a rest from his Bible class and Sunday School teaching duties.

A little bit of background on that. There was a concern brought to our July board meeting from a congregation member through one of the ministers that if there's any disunity, confusion, or a different spirit, should the congregation consider asking Randy to rest from his teaching duties?

And at our July meeting, Randy and a few of the other board members were absent, and those of us that were there felt that it would be best to wait and discuss that particular concern at a time when as many of the board members and ministers were present. So we scheduled a meeting for this past Thursday to focus solely on the spiritual matters

And to discuss the concern of Randy continuing to teach. At this meeting on Thursday, there was much free and open discussion, mostly relating to the discussions we have had in our previous month's board meetings. The discussions centered around the disunity of the board, mostly on the letter that Eric Skoog and Warren Raisanen wrote.

And this was noted in the synopses of the last three board meetings that were sent out recently. I'm not sure if everyone had a chance to read them. We also discussed how we believe on the matter of confession, forgiveness, the Holy Spirit, and God's written word, the Holy Bible.

We all agree that two spirits have been present in the recent discussions we have had. Through the hours of discussion, we haven't been able to pinpoint the specific issue or issues, so we're asking the congregation for help and guidance.

I would also say that through all of these discussions, matters have been discussed in a loving and patient way. Many times the gospel has been preached to care for any offenses caused and to keep the love amongst the Lord.

And then towards the end of Thursday's meeting, we discussed with Randy how he felt we should proceed since we didn't feel like we had come to any consensus or conclusions. And it was his wish to bring this to the congregation for discussion. And with that, he also suggested that if the congregation is going to be discussing

So that's kind of the basis of what we're hoping to discuss tonight with the congregation. And as Travis mentioned in the devotion, we all know it will come.

To a decision this evening, we simply trust that God will reveal direction and answers in this time. So at this time, the floor is open for discussion. I would like to encourage everyone to be free and share what's on your hearts and minds.

And we do have a rolling mic. I'll have Garrett pass around as comments come up. Garrett, Hallie, Scranton.

Since moving here, I guess I haven't even had a chance to visit Randy and Angela, so could someone clarify or check? What are the differences that have come up as I'm feeling clueless here?

I guess I don't know if we know what all or if many differences there are, but like I mentioned that through the discussions we've had at the board level, it's been evident that two spirits have been present and it's left a sense of, or a feeling of unrest or uneasiness.

We've kind of discussed the same topics and the same concerns. The discussions seem to go the same way and it doesn't feel like we've been able to come to any kind of resolution or don't know exactly what the differences are. Other than the feeling of two spirits.

I guess I have one more question for Randy. Do you personally feel like your beliefs have changed at all, or do you still feel like you're bleeding the same that you always have?

First of all, I'd like to comment on Travis's devotion. I think he chose some very good texts in his devotion. Very appropriate for the time we have here before us.

And comment on what Barrett said as well, that this is so, that there has been no specific difference stated up until this point, other than, as he said, the feeling that there's a different spirit.

In regards to the question of how I believe, I believe very simply on the sure promises of God, that He sent His Son here to die for the sins of the entire world, and mine included.

One comment that I didn't make last Thursday night in regards to also considering my service here on board. Since there's someone who made the comment to me that these things are not related,

But the reason I feel that they are related is because I have heard that in this congregation it has been voiced that I should not serve on the board. And so if there is the same concern regarding my service on the board,

It has not been brought up to me, but I've heard that. So if that is the case, then I do not want to serve a congregation that does not want me to serve on the board. So that's why I asked to also discuss that here today.

Because my prayer is to do the will of the congregation if they want me to serve, I will do that, and if they don't, then you can tell me that today.

I'd also like to encourage the other board members and ministers to feel free to share their thoughts or what they recall from the meetings that we have had. That may help provide some clarity.

Travis. I guess I have a few thoughts. It's just what they are, infectious thoughts. They're not instruction or any sort of wisdom or anything. I guess another...

The thought I had is that Tom and Randy said that he had heard that there is, thought that he should also not be serving as a board member of the congregation. That's news to me. I have not heard that. That is, we haven't discussed that at the board level at all, unless it was brought up at meetings that I was at. I know I missed the last one, I know.

But if that is the doctrine of congregation, I think that should be voiced. Personally, I don't think that's my feeling. These are just thoughts. I did have a very good conversation with you, Randy, after today's board meeting. As I related, I don't know if I can go into it now or not, some of those comments you made, I wish that would have been brought forth in previous meetings.

I haven't been so diligent in these times past of visiting with this brother as I have previously, partly because I know there's a differing spirit, and I do agree with a little more members, and Randy stated that there seems to be a differing spirit when you can't part with anybody. So I think there's a struggle there. Where do we go?

I know as one brother at our board meeting related, and I agree with this, a great deal of support and love to be a board member again at our last annual meeting. My heart rejoices. Just because a brother has difficulties and perhaps there is a differing spirit, and perhaps there isn't, we don't know at this point, but it sure feels there is in my mind. I feel, I do feel there's separate roles, I don't know.

Scripture says that some are teachers, some prophesize, some so on. I don't remember exactly how it's worded. We're not all asked to teach. We're not all asked to speak. We're not all asked to be board members. I don't know if these thoughts are right or wrong. I don't know. I do think they are separate. I feel uncomfortable personally asking Randy not to serve on the board.

But in regard to Bible class and teaching, given the last few weeks, quite a bit of thought. One thought I have is, okay, so what if someone has asked me to move from a teaching position or any position? So what? I don't want to say that in a dismissive way.

I mean, so what? I mean, John, we are God's tools. If there is even a small bit of confusion, as one Congregate member has expressed, apparently, and even one board member and one of our discussions also brought forth that he felt that there was some confusion in his mind, that we're asked to sit down as a tool in God's Kingdom,

That gift isn't going to be taken away even though that person is asked to sit down. And speaking personally, I would like to think that if I was asked that, I would obediently and willingly sit. It doesn't mean that this position is withheld forever. Give it a time to pause and consider.

In time maybe these things will be figured out. Maybe that duty would be asked to be restored. I guess that other thoughts have gone now.

Thank you, Travis. Lads.

I would say I could probably speak for all of us that we are here. We are all trembling, and we are all fearful to speak our mind, which, that gives me comfort that I'm not alone in my own thoughts.

Struggling to put some thoughts together, or even speak my mind. But, as has been stated, these thoughts are coming out of love. We are speaking out of love. And I hope our dear brother can accept these thoughts in this regard.

This has been stated. Nobody's been able to really, at a board level, put a finger on what the difference is. There's not something to say, here, this is where this brother thinks differently than I do, or this brother thinks differently than other members of the congregation.

Myself, I've had, I haven't been able to put a finger on it myself, but I've struggled a little bit with putting the Bible class lessons together. Out of fear, I don't know where it's coming from, but wondering which lessons will this brother teach.

Like I said, I don't know where that thought was coming from. I tremble. But I also took comfort in knowing that the congregation would guide. And if there was, in a sense,

Putting the burden on myself, I assigned this brother this lesson and he spoke or taught in a differing spirit that the congregation would guide, the congregation would

So I felt that way in assigning these topics, that putting the trust in the congregation to help in this matter. I have, if there is a different spirit,

I thought that it probably would be a little bit uncomfortable with the children to have somebody teaching their children in a different spirit if we as a congregation felt that there was a different spirit. And if this brother felt there was a different spirit. And I've also had the same thought as Travis as well.

It's okay if we are asked to step down. Hopefully we can accept this. All of us can accept it as a congregation and as dear brother. That it's not a personal judgment of an individual. Because who are we to judge one another?

That's about all I have on the line right now, but I'm encouraging everyone to speak with love and, dear brother, accept these speeches with love as well.

And just to follow up on the comment Randy made about his role as serving as a board member, it's the first I've heard of it. It's not anything we have discussed at the board level. It has not been a topic for discussion, so I assume it's maybe something he heard through the grapevine or a personal discussion that he really had.

I think Travis encouraged if there is a concern there from someone here tonight, please be encouraged to bring that up for discussion as well.

I have to admit, when I got the email about this discussion, I thought, my first thought was, that's kind of a drastic measure to take. Because I had always felt that Randy was such a level-headed person. And then I realized that a lot of my stuff was based on years ago.

We haven't visited so much recently, but when he was younger and single here, I felt pretty close to him. I was always so thankful he was there for my kids. And then I happened to cross the sermon that brought me a lot of comfort, but it talked about how we have to be of one spirit.

And I thought, well, if Randy had some kind of a foreign type of spirit in him, maybe it would be better if he wasn't teaching Sunday school or Bible class. But then I kind of, I wish I was little, or people don't say that too often, but it just seems like back in the early 80s,

In Colorado after the heresy that there was a time of a lot of turmoil and that we heard that there was like a spirit of unrest and it wasn't just in the board members it was in the congregation and it was just caused by confusion over everything that had transpired and then after a while you just kind of quit hearing about that spirit of unrest and

It just did feel more comfortable. But at that time, it seems like, and maybe Junior will remember better, and it seems like people would try to talk about it, but they really couldn't pinpoint it, just like this. And I don't remember if any board members got taken down, and I do remember some speakers being put up, and then they didn't speak, and I don't know if it was all related to that or not, but I do think there are a lot of different spirits

That travel around and there is a lot of confusion right now. And I know that Randy's family has been involved in a lot of that. So it could be creating confusion on him immediately. It's just some type of an unrest. And then too I remember how I had one speaker brother friend who

Had been accused of speaking wrong. He just said, you know what, I don't want to cause confusion, so I'd rather not speak. If people are going to be getting confused by what's going on in my mind, even though nobody could really pinpoint anything with him either, just take me off the speaking rotation. Thank you.

Pete. First off, I'd like to

I want to echo Baron Travis's thoughts that Randy is a dear, dear brother. And these discussions that we've had at our board meetings for the past few months have been difficult discussions and for myself as

It seems like it created more doubts for me and more doubts than answers, but I guess the big thing to me that stuck out was when we discussed the letter and how can I feel so

And we discussed that letter for hours in multiple meetings and we could never come to an agreement that

I don't necessarily pinpoint one wrong teaching or wrong doctrine, but there's definitely been an unsettled feeling. And as far as teaching and staying on the board,

It's hard for me to, and I think I can speak for the whole board, that we don't feel like we should be the ones saying that you need to sit down. And especially at the board level for me, I would like to personally see Randy stay on the board.

Just so we can continue to talk matters of faith with him, my biggest fear is that it would create a bigger division than there is.

And I definitely don't want to see you. My dear brother, thank you, Mr. Dean. Thank you, Dean.

Our very, very dear friends.

And with such heavy heart, we came here tonight. Such is our life, however, it's all a break in the unity of the Spirit.

American Zion. I don't have any voice words and any more understanding than anybody else. And from our talks together,

Randy and Angela, I feel like they talk theologically correctly. I don't know what it is any more than anybody else. I just feel a little bit confused myself. Why are we even talking about this?

I personally feel like I don't have any grievances against [unclear] or how God's words be preached and taught here. In my heart, it's this element. To hear and also think in the same way, it sounds the same.

With what we're talking here tonight, I think that maybe, you know, we were brought this teaching position and taking away the subject of maybe their fear or I guess it would be my fear too as a mother.

My own dear children. I, of course, want nothing but that they may be dead one day. And I pray that I teach them correctly. And I hope and pray that they get the correct teaching from

God's kingdom, all the workers that are there to teach them. And anybody of us could be in that position. We all lack in words and are not so knowledgeable, you know, in our positions of being teachers or preachers.

We're at home teaching our children.

My theory goes right into that. Maybe this is kind of like an echo from Minnesota, from the personal talks with Randy. I feel like he talks correctly about faith matters.

But still there is just something confusing that I don't really understand. Of course the fear is that that big confusion that more so sounds like it is in Minnesota would spread here. And the broken lock that evidently is happening there between believers. So I think, thinking about this teaching,

Also, there's kind of two sides to it when you think of all these dear children of ours. Of course, we want to protect them from any wrong teaching. But also, we want to, in this kind of situation, unfortunately, that we would have to have a meeting like this.

It can be so hard for the children to understand what is going on and why this person is being pinpointed to this or what's wrong. Especially when there isn't really a reason that we can clearly keep them at least what's wrong. This is how we may be believed differently and that's why.

I was, just when I was in Finland, I was talking with my oldest sister, who is not believing, and she was a child when there was lots of these caretaker meetings in the end of the 70s, maybe beginning of the 80s. I was too small. I don't remember those meetings, but she vividly remembers them.

She was traumatized from those meetings when there was, at that time, there was a dry spirit and people were rebuked and reprimanded for really pretty crazy things looking back from now. And even my own father was kind of on the blacklist.

They were rebuked, and they were in situations where he would ask for forgiveness, but he would not be forgiven many, many times over. He's been such a scholar.

She carried many years of experience towards being a priest. And I spoke to a lot of people. And I wrote that again to any of our church members.

So it's important to talk to the kids, because they can be noticed and wonder or worried or try to explain us the loss we point. And of course, you know, over those difficult times, God helped and

My dad is still eating and my husband was put into a minister speaking position a few years later. Many of those ministers that were taken down were put back to speaking later. But some lost their faith over those difficult times.

And also, my feeling about the board was, I think that's a little bit different. And I think it's a, you know, I'm sure it is a very hard place for board members to be in, continuously discussing matters over and over again. It seems like a very small conclusion,

A good place for NADP to be able to talk and change lives. I've seen some like this. They're interviewing outside family.

I've heard about this confusion, as you say, over time, especially recently with dear Randy. I've had sleepless nights.

The prayers that this unity won't be broken, and especially that prayer that

That prayer of King David, right? If there be, when there are these trying times, that I want to turn to God, and look in my heart, and search me, and lead me in the correct way,

Much power in prayer and to be of that humble heart. I want, you know, I would want to be like that sheep that I don't have answers. There's much out there standing in faith that I don't understand. But I do know in the Holy Spirit

When it's there, it's very obvious, talking with brothers and sisters, that for sure is a prayer that this community will not be broken, that we can speak freely about faith matters. We're not always going to have the right answers.

And I know we all have weaknesses throughout our faith life. When we respond to them, we may go too left or too right, but to be among leaders in the middle of the flock, that's a good place to be.

To me, this meeting is about a lot more than me being a Sunday school or Bible class teacher. To me, that's a very small thing.

More than that, it's about how we've gotten to here and how we go from here. A very familiar scripture portion to all of us, I think. 1 Corinthians

14 verse 33, it says, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. And to me, and at least some who have spoken here tonight, the most confusing part is that there's something wrong, but we don't know what it is.

The Bible teaches us that we do not judge, but the Word of God does. Therefore, we need to use the Word of God to judge.

And right now, that's not what's happening. We need to be able to find something in Scripture that would say that this is correct and this is not correct. The Holy Spirit, I've heard it described this way,

That it's like a compass. And it always points in one direction. And that's to Christ. To the Word, which is Christ. It's not some phantom thing that

Tells us what color shoes to wear. But it points us in the direction of God's word. And that's the foundation of the church. The church is built on the word. The word is not built on the church. And we need to stay true to the God's word.

To stay true to God. Again, it's not important to me to remain a teacher or to remain on the board. What is important to me, and it should be to all of us here, that we study, as God's Word says,

Study and take care to remain in God's word. 1 Timothy 4, 16. Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. We need to remain true to God's word.

We can't trust that there is a spirit or that the Holy Spirit would be separate from God's word. They're one and the same. Jesus says, my word is spirit. They're the same thing.

I'm happy to answer any questions that anyone has about how I believe. I feel like as Bear said and Pete and Travis, we've discussed these matters for hours and hours on the board.

The closest thing, the only real concern I've heard, the two is my agreement with this letter,

Which is I talked to one of the board members about privately. I haven't used it to teach from. I haven't advocated that we should be teaching from it. I haven't used it in any presentations. I haven't read it since our board meeting.

I can see how if I was using the letter as a teaching tool in Bible class or something, knowing full well that there's confusion around that, I can see the concern. But that has not been the case.

And the only other concern that has been brought up is that I speak too much about the importance of the Scriptures and the Holy Bible and that my instruction is we need to turn to the Holy Bible because it's the highest authority in all matters of doctrine and life.

So again, I would say, let's study God's word and let's see what God's word has to say. Let's all have the same prayer that we would be in the doctrine of Christ.

As it says in 2 John 1, verse 9, He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son. That's my prayer for myself and my prayer for everyone here.

I have a lot of jumbling thoughts.

First of all, I have to admit I was lost in some of those things that you just said. I don't even know what the word doctrine means, honestly. And I feel like you... I've heard so much from...

From what Randy said, it's in others that we need to study. We need to study. We need to know God's Word. We need to know our step. I've been told that we need to know your step. I've been taught that we need to believe like a child. I don't know what the word doctor means even. Am I even acceptable if I don't know what that word means? And it's such a strong word that's always being used. Doctor, doctor, doctor. But I just...

If we had to study and know all this, Randy, your knowledge impresses me. Your Bible, scripture, and knowledge have blown away. I can never do that. I know that I can't do that. But I know that I can get to heaven if I can believe like a child. I don't need to know all that. And to be able to come to church and just be fed.

Just listen with an open heart and open ears and say up and trust that that was God's word. Then I know that I'm in God's kingdom and that's where I need to be. And all this talk of knowledge is beyond me. But I too

I felt a difference. I haven't visited with you guys for a long time. But I have noticed a change. Some of the things now, these are going to sound so petty, and you probably have reasons, but it's just life. First of all,

You're not doing some of the things you always used to do. Come to couples camp, and go to father and son's camp, and father and daughter's camp, and come to ladies' camp. We've noticed the absence. I have. I've missed you. I hate to even bring that up, because I know that there's probably super good reasons, but there wasn't those reasons before. You used to come.

But that's just one of the changes I witnessed. I haven't personally talked faith with you, but that is one thing that has concerned me. And I don't know, I have a lot of thoughts too, but I would hesitate. I guess if we weren't here to talk about being a Sunday school teacher or Bible class,

Teacher, I have had worrisome thoughts of that too. But this is such a difficult position to be in. I should have never taken this mic. But I don't know. Can I pray for all of us? I have something I want to say.

I also, I'm sure a lot of us, all of you came here trembling. When I got the email too, I was like, ugh, ugh. I can't believe we, I didn't know, I didn't know what my thoughts were, but it was just like, ugh.

And then I was just feeling, trembling for the board because I feel like we're all so young. Our congregation is young. I feel like we're too little, too young to go through spiritual difficulties. And I wish at this time, like Deanna said, there's not too many times where you wish you were older, but this is one time, or that our church was filled with elders.

Ones who went through the last heresy. Ones that can have been through a lot more than maybe we have. We've been through, growing up it was, we never even thought of spiritual difficulties. You never thought you'd have a conversation with someone and not be able to just talk smoothly about faith issues. It went years like that. And, so yeah, at a time like this I just really wish

We did have elders, but then again, I had to calm myself down and say, you know what? God will be here tonight, and I'm sure along with myself and along with many, or all of you, we had, I just prayed and prayed and prayed that God would be here tonight to guide this discussion, because it's not something I don't think any of us were skipping to come here to do. But like Randy said, too, I think it is more than just Randy being asked to

I think it's just a continuation of these spiritual issues that are going across Zion. And it felt like for a long time maybe we were going to escape it and it was going to be peaceful here. And I feel like it's here and we need to talk and we need to open our hearts and hope that God will guide us. But on the Holy Spirit, you know, we talked about feelings.

And that there's just something different. But my whole life, and that's why I'd ask Randy, that have you not felt like the Holy Spirit, growing up and, you know, 10 years ago and when you were on the board before, you moved to Minnesota, did you not believe that the Holy Spirit guided things and that it was a feeling? Like, if you heard something and it didn't feel right, like, that's the Holy Spirit guiding us.

And that growing up, I didn't hear that we need to study and we need to know doctrine and we need to listen to a sermon and then decide if that was the correct way that they used doctrine. That's foreign to me. And I know it's been talked about a lot in the last few years. But growing up and always, I believed that when the speaker's talking,

That's God's word. It's not the speaker studying the doctrine that they were going to talk about that day and giving their interpretation of it. It's God's word that's coming out of their mouth. And as a child and as growing up, that's how I'd always still want to believe because otherwise it's too difficult to believe. If we have to, if it's on our shoulders to try to decide

And go home and study the scripture. And I know I have made comments in the past that it's hard for me to read scripture and understand it. And that's why I'm so thankful that we have our faith and that God has given me that faith and that simple understanding that when a speaker talks, that's God's word. And if you get comfort from it that day and you hear the gospel, you go home and you struggle again as a believer.

I have lots of scrambling thoughts, and maybe I kind of lost my train of thought, but I just feel like I would just ask Randy, like, did the Holy Spirit, is that a new understanding or a different understanding that you've gotten about the Holy Spirit, versus have you always believed that way that you just spoke?

Hand to the left.

In Luther it says, he writes, the ultimate aim of the devil, the devil has no better strategy to conquer us than to draw us from the word to the spirit. One should stay by the word and not grant the people the spirit without the word.

I'm not sure exactly what your question was, Kara. I have always believed the way I spoke. I think you were asking if I have always believed that the Holy Spirit points towards Christ, I think. Is that correct?

There's one example that has stuck with me for many, many years. I don't know how long ago it was, 10 or 15 years ago.

On the board there was an instance where some individual in the congregation had brought a concern to one of the speakers that they had witnessed something happening amongst the haps. A few individuals had haps, as I recall.

Rather, a board member brought it to the board meeting. And one of the ministers asked that particular board member, he said, did the individual that came and told this to you, did they talk to those kids? And

The person said, well, no, they don't think so. And he said, go back and tell them to talk to the kids first themselves. This is not something that the board should be discussing until that is done. The reason I bring that up

Because I think the second part of your, another part of your question, Cara, was do I believe that the Holy Spirit leads and guides? And that to me is a very, very clear example of the Holy Spirit leading and guiding. But it's also a very clear example of how the Holy Spirit pointed to God's Word and said that

This is how Jesus taught. You need to go speak to them first yourself. So yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit leads and guides. And yes, I do believe it points towards Christ.

Yeah, I guess Randy said earlier that there's more to this. I agree, I think there is. I'm not sure if I can get one out and around, but I can't put a finger on it. To me it seems

That in our discussions and your comments, they are doctrinally correct. They are according to Scripture. It is important for us to understand doctrine. God's Word is very clear on that. And as our duty is, especially as teachers, the congregation, speakers,

Sunday school teachers, Bible class teachers, whatever that we would desire to teach according to some doctrine. But it is not necessary. I find it very important for me to speak according to what God's Word teaches. I'm not good at it at all. My understanding is so small.

I do desire to read and study. What I do comprehend, then comes the problem of explaining it. I'm sure you congregation members here many times squirmed at things I've said that perhaps weren't correct.

That does not detract from the power of God's Spirit and how it feeds and edifies. Congregation is forgiving. I think there's a danger in having such knowledge, wisdom, and understanding turning the effect of the Spirit into

I don't know how to word my feelings or my thoughts, but almost turning the topic of the Spirit into a law-minded. Everything that the Spirit affects has to be in accordance with God's Word. The Spirit and God's Word are tied together. I'll give you an example of caretaking that I experienced in my life, and I am so thankful for it.

I did not lead a godly lifestyle when I was a youth. I did not have the testimony of the child of God. You name what I was partaking in. I probably did it knowingly, again and again, enjoying it for a season. And there was another partaker, or no, not a partaker, another brother, a friend of mine,

Who knew what I was doing and found out about it, but he did not have the strength to come and talk to me. He went and told my mom. And he told a few others, I think. My mom came to rebuke me. Because at the right time, I was able to put away those matters. He didn't do it according to how God's word teaches.

The Spirit is that which is written in our hearts. God's Word is written in our hearts. I don't know if I quote it correctly. That's what the sentiment or the point of it is. The Spirit guides God's children according to God's Word, but it doesn't have to be with such precise precision, I guess.

And I also am starting to feel or to think. Perhaps there is this thought that the servants in God's kingdom

Lately, or, yeah, lately, I guess, focus a lot and emphasize a lot on putting sin away. And we did discuss this at our last board meeting. To me, that's one of my reasons to have that understanding, and you didn't even allude that you feel that there is too much emphasis in God's kingdom to put sin away.

How we do that and what it means. Perhaps when we speak from the pulpit concerning this matter, we might not say it the correct way of how we go to find absolution, what it means to put sins away. We're just lay speakers. We've been given this duty by the congregation from not theologians,

I've had a conversation with another brother regarding the saying that North American Zion needs to have more ordained pastors. I think this is kind of along the same lines. I don't think God's kingdom and God's word is diminished by the lack of knowledge of the servants and the teachers.

God's word says that his work will not return unto the void. It will accomplish that which he desires. I don't know exactly how that's worded. I do think there is this danger or desire to become so knowledgeable that we begin to diminish

A message of the spirit of God's kingdom to encourage that simple message of childlike faith to endeavor as a child of God, battle against sin, put sin away as it besets. Use the power of the gospel in our endeavor of faith. I really feel that that message is kind of

Being attacked or criticized or critiqued is encouragement to put sin away, to teach our children to confess sins when they burden us. So in that sense, I think there is a danger, Randy, in being so knowledgeable in scriptures.

I appreciate people who are knowledgeable, because I am not. I treasure those times when I can visit with those who know more about Scripture and open onto me those little blessings or nuggets. God's Word opens in a way that we never knew that this portion or that portion of God's Word spoke in this way or that way.

I don't mean to belittle you, Randy, or pursue it after your curiosity towards God's word and scriptures and theological writings and so on. That is a good desire to have. But as one brother at one of the meetings we had in Minnesota once said that he is cursed with curiosity.

He has that same type of mindset and mentality that he is always striving after knowledge, God's word, commentaries on what other people have written on different portions of God's word and constantly has that same type of desire. He also said that that is a curse also for him in some ways. He always has to be reminded of the simple message of God's kingdom.

That call that he was able to experience being called out from the world into this kingdom of life. So I think in some ways we are paddling back. I think it is good instruction though that we wouldn't belittle doctrine and God's word. There's a danger there also that we should attend towards sound doctrine.

Know what God's Word teaches. Doctrine is nothing than the teachings. The teachings of Jesus Christ. Doctrine sounds like a big word, but it's no more to break it down. The teachings of Jesus, God's Word, the written Word of the Bible. It's good that we would understand what the teachings of the Bible are, but it's also good to remember that

This one brother also once said that childlike faith is more important than knowledge. Jesus gave that example of a child as he who is acceptable. That we would instill that desire in our children to have this wholesome fear of sin, but also give that encouragement

The absolution that is found, the power that is found in the proclamation of the gospel, sins are forgiven. We are God's children dwelling in his kingdom. We are heaven acceptable when we have that assurance that our sins are forgiven.

As I sat here tonight, it was in some ways refreshing to hear the doubts of so many others. I had the same doubts that

What the gist of the topic is, what's the run of it? I've also heard a plea from our Lord. I've heard this plea that we don't know what to do, so we're going to come to the congregation to ask.

We've heard confession from the board that maybe there is two different mindsets. We don't know what they are. That alone tells me and speaks to me in this way that maybe now

Is that a time that our dear brother would maybe take that rest? We don't love Randy any differently. We still love him with it on the bottom of our heart. But if there's even the least bit of hesitation,

I would echo that thought that maybe now would be an okay time to take that rest. And may God give wisdom as needed. A couple other thoughts that have come.

Now we've begun this theological discussion. In some ways is that casting additional doubts amongst our congregants, amongst our members,

We've been told, at least my whole life, that faith comes by hearing, and sure, hearing by and to the Word of God. But it still comes, faith still comes,

Understood that knowledge, doctrine is good for discussions. But if it's purely knowledge, I don't know if I'm going to make it to the other side. And there's that question of elders.

They reassured me that those gifts are all here as well. But that is Satan allowing us to have those doubts and questions.

So be encouraged that God has given all the instruction, all the wisdom needed for our entanglement, our congregation to be spirited. We all know we're going to have those times of turmoil, those times of question, but we can be comforted that God is here.

So from just my side, I guess, without knowing all the background, as the board does, they came to us with a plea. And if it helps, Randy and our congregation

I see it okay if Randy sits. Not as finger pointing, but if there's a little confusion, we go into the teaching here and just, in my feeling, it has a weird feeling to it.

And then having the opportunity to serve on the board for a couple years. I do know that unity on the board is vital. I'm not saying one way or the other that we would ask Randy to step away from that, but I just do know from a personal

Experience that a united board is vital to the health of the congregation. But I think I can speak to this as well as everybody I've had my doubts piling up over the last few days. I need to have those. Forgive me. God bless you.

I'm literally shaking here in my boots and I don't feel like I have all the scripture portions or anything, but I just felt like I

Had to speak to your point of being knowledgeable in the Scripture or continuing to read Scripture, the importance of it. And I was just thinking about the Pharisees and how they knew the Scripture inside and out and backwards. But they didn't have the Holy Spirit. They weren't believing.

So I feel that you do need to be believing and putting your own sins away and then God reveals and opens up the scripture onto you so you can understand it. And I feel like there was a time back when there was a small group in Seattle that there was having some scriptural or

Spiritual or faith issues and there was a small group that did leave faith and I was pretty close to a lot of them. During that time, I did feel like it was really important to go to scripture and, you know, turn to God's word when there's times of strife. But I felt like the purpose for going to scripture was

For comfort and for God to reveal onto me his word and provide that comfort that yes, I am still believing rather than trying to go to scripture and find the answers and feel that in some way from my own heart I'm going to find the answers. And I'm just speaking only of my own experience, but I guess

That is how I've always thought about God's word and how God will open up that word unto us for what we need for this day and our journey of faith. And I don't know if any of that made sense, but could I have my sense notes for you?

Thanks, Kath and Byron. You shouldn't start crying before you begin work, though. I have so much love for Randy and Ursula and their family. In my heart.

I've been reading my email on restless nights, many prayers, and I just pray that first of all they and everyone in the congregation would accept that God's will will be done. No matter what that will is, it will, God's will will be done. I find a lot about God's will for last year, sometimes.

As well as hard to understand at times and later some things are revealed, but I do trust that he has a plan for all of us and he's guiding these congregational visits and all our discussions and our spiritual visits.

Comments were made about elderly and I thought a lot about my mother. And when it was such a small congregation in Detroit after the heresy split, it was actually six or eight believers and my mom and dad were not among them.

They really struggled and went in and out of the heresy and my mom shared a lot this last fall after she was diagnosed and before she was too sick to communicate. She talked a lot about it. She told me how

During those really, really troubling times, they would go back and forth and back and forth and try to find the doctrinal differences and try to figure things out. And what finally she realized that she wasn't, that surely answers are in God's word, but what was going to guide her to the congregation was the Holy Spirit. And when she realized it wasn't in that heretic church,

And it was in God's congregation that it was so clear to her, and that's when she knew that she was in the right place. Just looking through the Bible verses, it was, there were so many areas where doctrinally the same, you know, there was the same interpretation, you know, but there wasn't the Holy Spirit guiding those

And that's to her how it became clear where the congregation was and where God's kingdom was. And in her last months, she was dying.

She was so relieved that we're here. And she said, you have the spirit there, unity in the congregation. That's where God's kingdom is. And she wasn't only referring to Colorado congregation. She was referring to Zion in general, but she was in particular to our congregation. She said, I can feel the unity of the spirit.

And those words with me, because I don't think anything's changed since she visited last. I know this is where I want to be. I know this is where God's kingdom is. I know this is where the Holy Spirit resides and resounds in our visits and our discussions. And this is where I want to be. So I don't need anything different. I'm sure I could produce a lot more.

I don't think that's going to save me more. I know I'm fed by coming. I know that when I'm a listener in these benches, I say amen to all the sermons. So I think that's important enough for me and I hope that never becomes the case where that's not enough.

Go, go.

As the other board members have shared, we've all struggled through this. I don't know if this story will be too much insight into my struggles, but during one of our discussions a couple months ago, I broke down and got on Sunday's restroom and I was just sobbing uncontrollably.

One of the ministers had come out and put his arm around me and was consoling me. I told him, you know, these discussions, these questions, sometimes I feel like it was more clear to me when I was an unbeliever what's true and what's right.

And I know, I share that because just, you know, a lot of the board members and ministers are tired, and I know Randy's tired. And I struggle with, like, you know, okay, like, what should we do, or if we decide he shouldn't be on the board, is that a fruit of our impatience and our yearning for...

Those days of unity, and then I go back to, I mean, what better place is there for anyone who's struggling, whether it's myself or Randy, to be on the board? I don't know. Thanks, Brett. Ken Byman and then Craig.

These are very difficult discussions for all of us to have and to think about and try to understand and deal with and wonder what do we do. I'd like to also encourage everybody that it's, like Anne said, this isn't our doing or our will. God has allowed this to happen for whatever reason.

And all the words spoken here tonight, he's allowed those to be spoken as well. And all the thoughts that we have, he's allowed those to be in our minds. And he's even allowed this meeting to happen, and whatever happens beyond this, he already knows. So I guess to keep down, I try to take at least a little bit of comfort from that.

Knowing that this isn't up to me or any one of us individually, but yet it's up to the congregation, and it's my prayer that he will continue to speak to the congregation. But thinking along these lines, like Travis was talking about, as far as maybe a quest for knowledge or understanding or truth, I'll share a little story.

That I've experienced. I went to study architecture from 2004 through 2008. In the field of architecture, you study two separate parts. You study the practical use of it but also the theoretical use of it. And the practical use talks about how a building is built.

And a lot of times that's very simple, very straightforward, and there's a certain way to do that. And so in that way it's kind of like memorizing the way a building is built, but the theoretical part of it, there is no one right answer. That all you have is your interpretation of how this building should be designed. And in that way it was a very, it was much like physical exercise,

It was four years of extreme mental exercise, continuing to go back and rethink and rehash over our design and trying to turn it into something that's unique and beautiful and powerful and that people would enjoy and people would appreciate. And that mental exercise that we got from that, towards the end of my time in school,

I felt like I was pretty sharp. I felt like when I came to the library. The problem when I was working on a design, I could really push that design. Like I would spend so many hours just thinking about that, pushing it forward and trying to do as much as I could to make something and try to portray my thoughts.

I think studying kids all my life, it was pretty sharp. And then when I graduated, I was going to push on and try to take two more years of school and get my master's. And I realized during that summer, I was so worn out and so tired and so exhausted, I just couldn't physically do it. So I thought I'd push it off a year. But it didn't happen that year or the next or the next.

And I moved on and it took many years before I realized that looking back on how mentally sharp I felt, I can see how if I applied my mind and started approaching God's Word with that same mental sharpness, well I guess I just look back on it and I thank God that He didn't allow me to continue.

And that maybe he allowed me to become more dull, I guess you could say, to lose that mental sharpness. Because I could have easily gone into this approach of looking at God's word with a really sharp mind. And I guess that's my concern is, if I'm sitting in a pew and I'm listening to the word that comes from the pulpit,

I hope that my mind never says, I agree with that, but I hope instead that my heart says, Amen. I guess for me that's the difference. That's the only way I can kind of explain how that spirit talks to me and that I don't have to understand.

Every passage and what it means in God's word and reading, I know that there's, deep in my heart, my heart opens up and says amen to one thing. It says amen to having my sins forgiven. And even tonight I'd like to ask for that gospel.

I just want to also ask for the cost.

I, too, feel like I don't have the answers. And before I even came this evening, I told myself that it wasn't done.

I was going to take a speaking turn and I was just going to listen. But as it always happens, my head gets up in the air and I find myself with a mic. But one thought that I had that we're often referred to as a sheepfold. And what is a sheep?

I think we've, on our way to church, we're able to see the sheep on the side of the road. And I must say that they look, they seem pretty simple creatures. And I feel like I'm one of those sheep.

And who do I want to be my shepherd? Who do I want to teach me and the rest of God's kingdom? I want someone I can teach with humbleness and add all the knowledge

Because what I want to know, the question that I want, that I have in my heart, is first, am I heaven acceptable? And if I'm not, how can I be heaven acceptable? And I think that's the question that we need

Am I heaven acceptable? Can I read that gospel?

I want to go back and re-read that portion of John's word. God's word from 2 John chapter 1 verse 9 because somehow this has gotten changed and misunderstood from what it says.

And I will actually read the entire ninth verse. Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

And so perhaps it's because of the word abideth and the word doctrine that it got confused as to what it says here. The word abideth means to accept or act in accordance with a rule, decision, or recommendation.

So, if we act in accordance with the teachings of Christ, we have both the Father and the Son. It doesn't say, nor did I say, that we need to have all this understanding and knowledge of all things, Scripture, to be saved. It simply says, we need to act in accordance with the teachings of Christ.

Um, so, I'm kind of confused, like, do you think

There's not, we're not using, people aren't using God's word? Like the doctrine? I don't know.

As

One of your speaker brothers in the congregation. I go to speak with many doubts, many wonderings. I chose a text and often wonder

And had doubts even of that and what I might say. And I have only been able to go to speak and speak what comes.

The other evening at the board meeting, I know Travis already mentioned, and Randy made the comment that there's too much speaking of confession, confessing sins and putting sin away, and there's not enough speaking of grace.

It brings doubts to me that have I or have the brothers in our congregation spoken wrong? Because I'm sure each of us has that fear that we would somehow lead someone astray with our poor words. And I mentioned at the meeting these doubts and

I don't remember exactly how it was, but I believe Randy, you made some comment also there about how do we know which spirit it is if there's two spirits? How do we know if we are in the right one? And I don't know how to know.

I have thought in some small way that maybe I'm thankful that I was put to speak, so I have to go and confess my faith before the congregation. And if I was in error, my dear brothers and sisters in the congregation would surely come and speak to me.

That I could be corrected. And it is my hope and prayer that the congregation would speak if I have spoken something wrong. But then also, Randy, this troubled me that you said

That I can't trust my brothers and sisters but I must trust God's word and it felt like somehow I had to make that decision myself and I couldn't trust that the Spirit lives in our congregation and the Holy Spirit speaks here in the congregation.

And the Holy Spirit gives reproof and correction, and the Holy Spirit also gives encouragement and comfort, and also encourages us to put sin away. But for my many doubts, can I hear that gospel? Can I believe my sins are different?

I guess my thoughts kind of echo the concerns of the mother or whoever brought it to the board because there is two spirits and obviously that's a concern and I just wanted to share an example of

A recent discussion that I had, of course surrounding this topic because of this upcoming discussion, there was a young family in the

The kids had been fighting and it just got out of hand and the mother told them that you guys have got to sit down and take care of your matters and have your sins forgiven and discuss this. And the older boy who was, I don't know how to say it without pointing fingers, but was in the Sunday school class of Randy's and he had said, well,

You don't have to put away every sin, every offense. There's grace, too. My spirit did not say amen to that type of instruction. So I guess that's where my concerns lie. I don't know what the...

Bylaws say, or any of that, as far as serving on the board, but I guess I would hope that we could have unity on our board. And if there's not, maybe someone has to take a rest, or I'm not sure what the answer is.

Any other thoughts or comments?

At this point, there have been many comments and speeches made, which is a bit nice to hear. Not all necessarily pertaining to the topic of teaching, whether or not it should. I guess, what would the next step be from here?

Is it more taken back, and is it about it, or do we, does Carol have some comments? I guess, probably no, it's okay.

I know as a board, we really struggled to make it to this place. But I thank the congregation for speaking. But to Barry's question, I guess as the congregation, are you willing to ask Randy to step down?

I guess I'd like to also comment on the board that in my impatience in, I guess, these spiritual matters, I look forward, I guess with Randy serving on the board, that without these spiritual discussions, without resolution, it's very tiring and personally I'm not interested

I am interested in keeping Randy as a dear brother.

We'll be starting the Sunday school scene this year. Mia will be in preschool. I'm really excited for her to go. I know she's going to love it. And she's going to come home and tell me all about what she learned. And I can't wait to

Learn from her. And I would just hope and pray that all our teachers would give her the right instruction so she can come home and teach me. I could be uplifted with her. And if there would be a concern of one, I would not be opposed to asking them to take a rest. Like Travis said earlier, it's not a forever thing. It's not a bad thing.

This is such a, I've been so uplifted here. It's so beautiful. Everyone's here and loving Randy and everybody, and we only want, well, we just want to go to heaven. See, we just want for our children, for them to get that guided, too, because I just want to go to heaven, and I want them to go to heaven. I want everyone to go to heaven.

And with the knowing scripture and reading the Bible, I'll never get there if I have to know the Bible. I don't have time. I wish I did. But it's so nice just to come to church and

I guess that's all I have to say, but can I hear the gospel too? Carol.

I just have two thoughts again. One is that, you know, talking about this scripture, I know it's something that we don't want to take lightly, and we've been encouraged our whole life, you know, going through Sunday school and confirmation and growing up that of course it's going to be scripture, but like I've said before, and I've been comforted by that,

It's a living word, so we need God's, we need that Holy Spirit to open up that word to us. And that's why I also like to, I've been thankful, of course for the Bible, but also for the literature we have that, you know, like the Voice of Zion articles. I really enjoy and appreciate the articles that, you know, have the scripture and then, you know, someone writes an article about it. And then it helps me to say amen to that scripture

So I don't want to take that lightly either, but then also going back to just being a mother. I think we all feel weak in raising our kids. I've often doubted that. God, do you really think I could teach 12 children?

That's our duty as a mother to help these kids get to heaven because God wants all his children to come to heaven. But I've been so thankful over and over and over the years that it takes a village to raise a child. And I thought, as a believer, we are so lucky that we have Sunday school and day circle and Bible class and camps.

And I feel like with all that, that is going to help our kids get to heaven. And if there are even any doubts that some seed of confusion or doubts of how we've always believed, if there's even a chance that there's confusion, I would ask that Randy would rest.

At this time, I echo the thoughts of others that it could be a temporary thing, and we'd hope and pray that you'd be able to hear this Holy Spirit that's speaking tonight. Hello.

I have lots of thoughts going through my mind, but just one quick comment that really best example that she just used. I think you have one.

One, because it comes so close to my own flesh. And two, it's not how I was raised. I was raised in living faith, taught to put away sin as often as you have knowledge of it.

And whether our teaching's meant to teach some other type of teaching or not, this has been my fear with two different spirits that a teaching comes that a child might, not only a child but even an adult might latch onto this type of thought that we don't need to worry about this and or that and we can

Maybe as I try to even address in our meeting on Thursday that this scares me because it sounds so enticing to my own flesh that I begin to stockpile them in the corners and not worry about trying to take care of them, knowing where the end will lead you.

So I would also encourage our dear brother to consider taking a rest. Again, with that type of thought that whether we tried to teach a certain lesson or not, whether we wanted that to be the outcome of a child's understanding,

When I heard that example, I guess that was, it was clear in my mind.

The other thoughts or comments? Brianna.

So at first when it was mentioned about the board I had the same thoughts that what better place to be and as far as you know having heard the

Somebody thought you shouldn't be on the board. I'm sure there's plenty of people in the congregation who think Brett shouldn't be on the board, or think they shouldn't be on the board, and that's why we vote, and then it's, you know, the congregation collectively decides. But, um, sitting here listening to the comments and what Michael just said about

Being a child or being an adult reminded me of something that I thought that I had this spring when I was leading to one of the board meetings. And when we had built the door, I was like, you know, praying that the board meeting would be blessed and

This night he happened to be driving his motorcycle. And I thought actually [unclear], maybe he'll die [unclear]. Because my fear is that he'll come home saying that he actually agreed with that other spirit. Can I have him here like possible?

Trembling to take a turn even to speak here, but just

I feel that I've been, I've felt troubled by what I've heard tonight, not really hearing a whole lot, I guess, other than maybe there's not unity on the board. And my mind keeps going back to every year at the annual meeting when we read that portion of scripture. I don't know what portion that is or couldn't even quote it as far as how

Board representation should be, and just have a feeling that this, whatever that's amiss, that everyone has difficulty putting fingers on is enough to perhaps consider the board as an appropriate place for Randy to serve and

I remember ranting amulet prayers, but I just can't help but keep thinking that this evening. Just ask if you could all bless me.

Any other thoughts or comments?

With regards to the question about Randy continuing his role on the board, I think we've heard two different approaches to that question, and I wonder if maybe we let that question rest a bit, and in God's time, maybe that answer will be revealed or be discussed further, only because I think there have been discussions going both ways on that question.

And kind of going back to Travis's opening devotion, that maybe we have patience with that, with these things. But going back to Bear's question about how does the congregation feel about reliving, asking for a rest with re-ending Sunday school and Bible class teaching duties, I think there's been a lot of comments on that.

I guess my question would be, I would ask Randy to take the mic and talk in consideration of all the comments made tonight and maybe talk about how you feel having heard the congregation and continuing in those two roles.

Randy, would you like to speak to that?

I really don't want to speak to a bear. As I said last Thursday night, I would like the congregation to do that. I have heard all the comments. I haven't heard anybody say that they think I should continue in those roles.

Perhaps there are some that do that haven't yet spoken, perhaps not. However, my feeling is I didn't put myself in any position.

Although the decision for me, I definitely could make a decision fairly easily, I don't feel like it's my decision to make.

So from that I guess I gather that Randy's asking the congregation to make a decision. The congregation asked him to serve in the teaching roles for both Bible class and Sunday school. And he's leaving it in the congregation's hands to ask him to rest if that's what the desire is.

Is there anyone else that would like to take a speaking turn regarding those roles? Tom Jurmu.

I, like many of others, probably almost everybody here has come tonight trembling, feeling our own lack of confidence in these matters.

But I've also felt comfort in there. There's been much discussion for the congregation, but from what I know, this isn't that way. Is this real? I think it would be appropriate, though, if we just had a show of hands, or both. I mean, then we'd see what we stand in, right? Unless that's not...

I would think that would be sufficient, so that's my own input on that. Any other thoughts or comments? No?

I guess for myself, I agree with Randy. It seems like these decisions are just made on feelings, and Luther's very clear on the spirit and feelings. And I guess on that,

Do I fall in the same category as a Sunday school teacher? Okay. Trotters in the background.

Regarding Randy's comment, I mean, I can't really say, I'm not a parent, don't have children in Sunday school, so it's kind of hard for me to put myself in that situation, but as far as like,

Bible class, youth discussion, I've never heard anything preached that's incorrect or not in accordance with the Word of God. See, I guess kind of along the lines of what Timo said, I'm in agreement with that. But again, don't have kids in Sunday school, so a little bit harder for me to put myself in those shoes.

Any other comments?

Tiffany. I feel pretty tempted to take the mic, but I feel like this is something I wanted to voice over as well. I don't know how long ago Randy taught a youth discussion

And I remember sitting there the whole time wondering why I went. I didn't feel refreshed. I felt very confused and I started questioning my own faith life with a lot of the comments he was saying. I know that he asked for a lot of responses from us and it seems like

A lot of the answers that we gave, it was, well, maybe that's right, but if you read this portion, this is actually what it says. And I feel like every comment or answer that people are giving, I said amen. So then sitting there,

I doubted, I questioned whether I was believing correctly as well. And I feel like that's kind of been what's going on tonight. I feel like the spirit of the congregation has spoken with their concerns.

And I feel like Randy has questioned us back with his doctrine, which I don't agree, or I do agree that doctrine is really important. That's something that we believe on, but I believe that the Holy Spirit guides us. And I remember speaking to a number of us who were gathered around after that discussion,

And all of us were confused, and I remember going home that night wondering why I went so many times. I've longed to go to your discussions because it just strengthens my faith. You hear the gospel and you strive to believe for another day, and that day I did not lose that. I guess a part of me, I've always

Since that day, I've been timid and I've questioned myself and whether or not I'm believing right or if I should reply more or understanding that. But tonight, can I hear that gospel?

I've sat here this evening

Marveling at how God has spoken through his congregation. I know we've heard how we haven't been able to pinpoint the difference, but some have commented on that letter, how it has been, but for the most part, the board has felt that letter only causes confusion.

And how Randy has supported it. And I can't help thinking then of that parable of the sheep that Jesus describes how we hear that voice of the shepherd when he says that to him the porter opened and the sheep heard his voice. And he called his own sheep by name and pleaded them out.

And when he put forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. And a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers. And this portion of God's Word has been on my mind concerning that letter. But even hearing Tiffany's comments, this portion really struck home.

That when we hear that different voice of the Holy Spirit so clearly shows that. And even thinking of how we have spoken, how young this congregation is, we feel our lackings, our poor understanding

And I think back to when I was first put up to speak last 20 years ago. There was one real fear I had. That when all those older creatures are gone, what will happen to God's kingdom? And I remember having that thought for maybe that first year of serving.

And then I remember being at a board member's workshop in Minneapolis, and an older speaker brother took a turn to speak, and he said, when I was younger, he said, I used to have this thought. It was a wrong thought. But he said, I used to wonder what would happen when the older speaker brothers were gone, when Laudy was gone, when Peter Camillo was gone. He said, these were wrong thoughts. He said, God places

His gifts into the hearts of his children. There isn't one leader that is not his God's children, but it is all in the hearts of God's children today. As we even have heard tonight from the many who have spoken and shared, that God teaches through each small

Voice for comment that is shared in this congregation goes to the gift that is placed in us. And we can see how God is, I feel, and marvel even how God tonight has spoken pretty lovingly, I think, of the concerns that are for our dear brother. And it is my prayer that

We would heed and hearken to the voice of the Good Shepherd and his congregation. Right to the bed, please. Now that you have your hands up.

I feel like there's been much unity and now I need to comment on Tennel's comment because that confused me. If you can just clarify for me that you feel on the same page as Randy that everything we're discussing tonight is based on our feelings and not on the Holy Spirit guiding us or what? And you're on the same page so you,

Shouldn't be teaching Sunday school, is that what you're saying? And that, I don't know, that just really threw me off. And that, like, are you saying that what we talk about is just feelings and we should just be wanting scripture for answers versus what we're talking about? Because, I don't know, it's just really taking this to me.

It was very fun. Thank you.

I grabbed him on the leg.

I have a difficult time with one person bringing a concern and then it just becomes a feeling with no

And then also I do believe scripture and that scripture is the

That scripture is the ultimate answer to all things. And personally, I feel as far as Sunday School goes, I've taught the same

Since I've been asked to teach

Are you done or are you still collecting thoughts?

Yeah, I don't think that, you know, that it was maybe one person's approach to boiling water, but I know there's been a lot of people who have been doing it for a long time. And, um, I didn't...

A lot of wandering and praying and even trying to turn the other cheek and pretend nothing, you know, just let it go. But then you can't do that either. And I'm just so...

I'm sad about what you just said. You've been in our home service groups before, and you let them, and sometimes when you talk to the kids and stuff, it's been so nice to hear. I've been, I've said amen. I'm at last for words, too, but the...

I don't know what Luther says about feelings, but don't get someone up on that day. You lose your faith over something like those feelings of joy when someone repents, those feelings of happiness and freedom when you're just forgiven, those feelings of sorrow when someone loses their faith, those feelings of sadness and concern for struggling brothers and sisters. That's the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes, I mean, I've heard so much from different people's, you know, I don't know, but it's so much technicality stuff. I'm not saying that you lost your faith, but it's just very, very concerning to hear that.

What happened? I don't know, I just... I think I almost said it, and that's forgiven. I'm so sorry for what I did. I don't know why I should stop talking. Yeah, when I came here tonight, like many of you, I came with my own carnal thoughts and fears.

I can say for myself sitting on the bench, I've heard, as maybe Terry mentioned, the voice of the Good Shepherd. It has brought comfort, peace, and unity to my spirit. I think the congregation has spoken. They have shared with their feeble tongues

Their fears, their worries, their prayers. They've been timid, as I have, to take the mic, but I feel so warm and secure to be here and to hear so many speeches that answer Amen. And I think as this night continues to move later and later into the evening,

I guess I return back to that question or that topic for this evening of teaching and what do we do with, what are the thoughts with Randy teaching Sunday School and Bible class. And I've heard those that are worried and concerned. And I guess it would be my thought and my prayer as I think Art mentioned that if

In my place of serving God's congregation, it is a position that I often fear and tremble in my own flesh. Will I speak correctly and properly? But I've been assured in this, that the congregation is a forgiving congregation. They have forgiven my weak words. But it is this prayer for me as well,

If I would offend one and lead one astray that, I would want to take a rest. This is not my flock. It is God's flock. I dare not to lead one of God's children astray.

And so, with that thought, I would maybe echo or support in that thought or decision that the congregation came to it that we would ask Randy to rest from teaching Bible class in Sunday school.

Would there be any other thoughts or comments? I know the night is getting late. We're very thankful for all the comments that we have received, but if there are any who would still like to share any thoughts, feel free. We don't need to rush to close. If there are thoughts to be spoken,

I was thinking about the common of these discussions being based on feelings. And the questions of doctrine, do we know doctrine? But I've had this thought that God's doctrine, as Travis said, that doctrine

That our faith is based on is the teachings of Jesus Christ and what is taught in God's kingdom, but the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit affects in our hearts the doctrines of Jesus Christ and this foundation of faith that we have gained

Living as a believer in God's kingdom. So I don't feel that it's a personal feeling that these issues have come about out of personal feelings. But I feel that it's the spirit of working in God's congregation.

That these matters have come up. And I was looking at a portion in 2 Corinthians chapter 3, starting at verse 3. It says, Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the Epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God,

Not in tables of stone, but in the fleshy tables of the heart. So I would fear to call this just a feeling that comes from personal, I guess our flesh.

I truly feel that it is the Holy Spirit working in the congregation. Travis. I guess I just want to make one quick short comment regarding

Can we just comment about one congregation member and bring this to the board? Here we are, cashing it out. That is something we struggled with, or I personally did, and I think you other board members, all of you did also. We considered it, and we did refer to Randy on that. He said, let's bring it to the congregation. It was very clear at the time.

Perhaps maybe hindsight, a few hours later the next day we all wondered if that was the right decision or not. That was the decision. It was a collective decision. But it was also Randy's wish that it would be brought here. See what the congregation says.

Any other thoughts or comments?

And then the other thing, do we as a congregation feel comfortable voting tonight on whether Randy should continue teaching or take a rest from teaching? Matt?

We heard earlier that Randy wanted to hear what the congregation said. The congregation spoke. As they spoke,

The congregation has asked a question. I guess maybe I could just ask the question that Randy, did you hear what the congregation said? You asked that it be brought to the congregation in Melbourne.

From what I've heard, the congregation is not necessarily pointing fingers, they just ask that maybe at this time you acknowledge it and you take a rest and teach it. I think we all acknowledge here that we all do as a dear brother.

But I really feel like the congregation has spoken. So how to move forward? It almost feels like that needs to come from you, Randy. You asked that the congregation hear, the congregation heard and spoke.

It is what we all travel in these moments.

And I served many years with Randy on the board as a dear brother and very much cared for him and loved him, his family. Sitting here listening to the comments from the congregation, I think Randy needs to make that decision. I would prefer that we didn't see it as a bullet. And when we hear those things that have been brought up,

I think we need to take heed. I even think of myself serving many years as a chairman here. That those things, when it came up, when I've been questioning how I serve, and was I correct or not in my teaching, and how I did my work, I would have asked to then take it out.

And so with that, I would encourage Randy that at this time would be the time to make those decisions. And it would be a time to maybe take a rest and nothing personal. We all love you, care about you, care about your faith and your life and faith in you and your family. And so that would be why we look at it this way.

As long as the mic is here, I just wanted to add something else. The words of the Bible were given to the whole world, and it's the most widely read book in the world. But there are very few who read it and understand it. The ones who read it and understand it the way that it's meant to be understood are the ones who have the Holy Spirit.

And it reminded me of that sermon that I referenced earlier, but I'll read a few portions. Yari, who's a younger guy than me, so likely people haven't seen. It has nothing to do with age. God gives words, and God talks through the Holy Spirit. Anyways, it was from 1 Corinthians, and I'll start at the 17th verse.

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God. It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Any other thoughts or comments? Randy.

I really did want the congregation to make a decision partially because there has been differing comments on me continuing to serve as a board member and it didn't seem like that was going to be discussed further tonight.

But at this point it does seem like a mere formality to take a vote on the matter. The comments by and large have been that I should not be teaching. And so that's fine with me, but in conjunction with that I would also like to ask

Or I would like to also resign my position from the board. I don't feel there's any difference in the duties as far as serving a congregation that is not comfortable with me doing that. And I would also lastly like to say for any

Offenses that you may have caused to me, but can you also forgive me for those? I guess, hearing that,

I'll move forward with Randy not teaching Sunday School Bible class. As far as his request to resign from the board, I think maybe we have an upcoming meeting in September. Maybe we can discuss that further.

If the board sees fit, or I guess that's my thought right now, maybe discuss that at our September meeting and then report back to the congregation with the discussions from that. I would like to thank everyone for the

The thoughts and comments they've shared, I know, as was said in the beginning, that's been said many times tonight, that this has not been an easy time for Randy or his family or any of the board members or ministers that have been involved in the discussion.

We felt that we needed the guidance from the congregation. I feel like we have received it. I will be speaking on behalf of the board. I would like to thank everyone for coming and sharing their thoughts and comments. Would there be any last comments before we ask Travis to lead us in closing prayer?

If not, I'll ask Travis to come and give some closing prayer.

Let's all together join our thoughts in the Lord's benediction. The Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift up his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.