So we've just heard this presentation by Harri and now is your opportunity to give your thoughts on what has occurred to you as we've listened to the words that God gave unto her.
Following that theme for these services, this aggregation of God is like an open canvas. So I'll open the floor with that encouragement that I feel free to be open and do my best to know the hands that are raised.
I may not have all your names, but I've got them right in the back. You can see the answers.
Thank Harri for coming to service and giving this presentation for us to consider. It's a very important matter that we take to heart.
The Holy Spirit is a gift given from God, but it is a precious, it dwells in God's kingdom. It's only found here in God's kingdom, and it dwells in believers. This is what makes it so unique.
It can only be found in God's kingdom. It can only be found in a faith, a true, real faith. And so that is the eternal trust.
The church that God has given us is a place for us to dwell, be encouraged, and faith is our home until the last night. This is not our...
Eternal One. This is only our Eternal One. We seek an Eternal One to come. God has supplied us with all of our needs here on this earth while we are churning through faith. So it's a great blessing in the game, a great gift that we should be thankful for. Who's next?
Thank you for this presentation. And looking at that discussion points, being a child of God by faith and by understanding was covered so
The area is so simple in this presentation that there's no complications when we believe by faith, not by understanding. Because all understanding is only
Very short here on this slice of faith. But faith is what brings us to heaven by understanding. We understand that even the smallest child is a child of God with faith in their hearts.
And that's where we want to stay in that picture of that ship. It's so beautiful that we want to stay on that ship until it reaches heaven.
The question we were asked at the beginning was, what is the picture you see when you think of your mother? We gave those three examples. So maybe in addition to these discussion points, how have you seen this mother?
I also want to thank Harri for his presentation. That first slide that he had with that Waaraniemi painting was one that was, well,
About 40 years ago I made my first trip to Finland and I came on a bus and I didn't know anyone who would go in on me. And I made my way to that church where the services were going to be today. And for me, that connection that I was able to make with the brothers and sisters
It's not just others and others. They're everything. When we have that connection, we feel it, and it's real. And that's the Holy Spirit.
I drove through the night last night, so I'm going on kind of two days of no sleep, so I'm trying to get my thoughts all straight. It was wonderful last night as we were driving. We were driving in the middle of Wyoming and the sun was setting and it was sky-blue and purple. And we were able to
Tune into the services here. And although we longed to be here, it almost felt like it was the next best place surrounded by God's creation. It was amazing and we felt so close to all of you here. Then after that, as I was driving through the night,
I was just listening to a bunch of sermons and one of them that stuck with me talked about faith cometh by hearing and how can they hear about a preacher and that we're all that preacher, that God's kingdom lives within us.
And for us to remember to preach that gospel, that that's the only way that someone else can do it, is through hearing that gospel. Go from there.
The first question when you said, you know, what do you picture, you know, God's kingdom, the first picture that came in my mind was this mother with these arms that were long enough. She had them around everywhere. And this one was trying to maybe slide out the side. That arm went around that way, too, and held them close.
But then also that ship, that was a beautiful analogy here of God's kingdom. It felt like maybe for years, this ship that's been sailing for you basically, on course,
You know, maybe a few doubts here and there, but all of a sudden now in recent times, more, you know, the devil has been there planting the seed of doubt in people's mind, where all of a sudden this course that we've been on is maybe not the right course. Another, you know, this
Other ideas of how, you know, other understandings of how the Kingdom of God is, and you know, it just feels like that's exactly what's happening. This course that we've been on, all of a sudden there is some saying that that's not the right course, and we want to make sure that we're listening to the Mother Congregation, which is the Holy Spirit.
Turning to this theme of images of congregation, what do we think of? Of course, I think of people. One question I've wrestled with over the years here,
Life says that we are made in the image of God. But when I look around, I see people, and I self-examine, examine inside myself, and I'm not good, I'm not good. My neighbor may be from the same church, but our opinions are different, we're all different things,
Who sometimes called the water people's fault. And I said, what could this be? That the faulty could get named to God. And I realized after one experience, where I had to go and take care of some matters,
And I want to ask us to ever forgive us and reach the gospel. And it was then that I saw the goodness of my neighbor. And it just seemed to me at that point that, you know, there is, we are made in the image of God.
When we were asked what is the image that comes to your mind concerning the Kingdom of God, I remember the discussions I had with Brian Westerberg, the brother who illustrated and wrote the Illustrated Home Bible.
Concerning the story of Jacob and Esau. And if you are familiar with the illustrations of the Bible, typically there is pretty much this illustration where Isaac blesses Jacob and Esau is coming from hunting.
But there is one big difference with the brightest illustration and the others. The others show the mother is trying to look outside from the opening of the tent and she's worried if Esau comes too early.
And that sends the picture that the mother is playing the game behind this blind father's back and trying to get a blessing to his very son who should not receive it.
And if you have a book at home, which I hope you have, and kids go and look at that, that how, what does a mother look like in that illustration? We agree to the point that mother is not worried at all about Esau coming too early. That's how religion has appeared. The blessing did not belong to Esau, as the Bible says.
He was a funny guy. He didn't get sent. And he could not receive a blessing. Oh, he sighed carefully with tears.
So the mother is not worried about that. The mother is gently watching and witnessing when the father, which is a picture of God, blesses Jacob. And I said to Roger, put all the beauty you can to the face of the mother. The congregation is beautiful. The congregation is everything good that we can think about.
The congregation is the mother of the whole in who we live, and as Harri said, the mother, our typical mothers, have a good life. I remember my father and my mother were passed away at the age of 96.
But I would say the congregation of God is even more special. It is like a mother. It is so wonderful. If you can turn to those discussion points.
It says the Holy Spirit works in many ways, and then there's this Holy Spirit which births to faith in the fellowship of God's navigation. God's navigation is this path. The family of God. And that fellowship, what we have here, is
I would say it's more than fellowship, it's unity. We feel it. We talked when we were driving home, picked myself up last night, how good it felt to be here, I'm here, and how much of a home this congregation is to us also. And that's how God's congregation is. And home congregation, one really said,
That it is not mass invention, it's God's will. It's God's good will that we have a whole congregation where we are known
Where we can be who we are, and we are loved, cared for, and known, it is like a home. So, these pictures and the Bible. The Bible isn't a picture book. God knows how difficult for us it is to understand the mysteries of faith. And so we use these illustrations, pictures from our interpretive life.
Those of us who have good fortune of having a happy home, we know how wonderful a place it is. And when I witness my wife taking care of the children, I marvel. That picture of mother is a very important good picture of the congregation.
And I have to say that the value and the preciousness of the congregation has greatly increased during these tumultuous, difficult years. But I can hear, I can go wrong. My understanding is very limited. If Apostle Paul said that we see and understand in pride,
How much more of us with smaller gifts from God. But the combination is like mother who takes care of the children. So this is my confession of love.
To the congregation of God, I'm thankful to be a member and benefit from that love and those gifts which are offered to me. Dear brothers and sisters, I need you. I want you. And I'm thankful to God that I have God's power over me.
When I think of the Kingdom of God, I remember my father-in-law. He was a simple man. He went with the heresy at the time of the last heresy. They came to visit one time after that. And during that visit,
We received the grace of repentance. After that, we went back to Upper Michigan, and one of his good friends, an adult among the Pharisees, came to question him.
And he said, I don't understand much, but I do know one thing, that when the forgiveness of sins were preached, it felt good. The simplicity of faith, this forgiveness of sins, felt good there in the people of God.
[speaker not intelligible to the transcriber]
According to the Nicene Creed, there are four characteristics of the congregation. We know that there's three creeds here. Apostolic Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed. Well, in the Nicene Creed, it gives four characteristics of the congregation.
It is one which we heard Harri tell about according to the words of Luther in the large catechism. It is holy because of the Holy Spirit. It is mutual
Or it is universal or Catholic. It is in every corner of the earth because every child that is born into this world is a member of this kingdom. And it is also apostolic. As Paul writes in Ephesians second chapter, it is built upon the foundation of the prophets and the apostles.
And Christ is the chief cornerstone. But we must remember that our object of faith is not the congregation. We don't believe in the congregation. We believe that there is a congregation that exists. But our object of faith is Christ.
It says so beautifully in the Finnish language in the creed, I believe in the Holy Ghost, but then I believe that there is a holy Christian church. But Christ, of course, cannot be separated from his congregation. Christ is in the congregation.
But then, Harri had this quote from The Bondage of the Will, and it said that the congregation is unerring. And this we do agree. It is an unerring congregation.
But then on the other hand, it is also important to remember that by unerring, we do not mean that the visible assembled congregation would be unerring. So here we use the two different terms, the kingdom of God, and each believer has the kingdom of God in their bosom.
Which is the rule of God in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. So the kingdom of God is the rule of God, which we and all believers have in our heart. But then the congregation is, as Harri said, ecclesia, which means a group that is gathered together.
As Luther says in the Christmas sermon, that it is a group of people. It's not stick or stone or rock, so it's not a physical building, but it's a group of believers who are assembled together who believe upon Christ. So, the invisible congregation, the kingdom of God is
Unerring. But that doesn't mean that the visible assembled congregation would be unerring. Any physical assembled body can err, whether it's one person, whether it's ten people, whether it's a hundred people, or whether it's a thousand people.
The 1,000 people gathered together have the potential to err. And I'll give one illustration. One month ago in the Paivamies, there was a little article which [Ari-Pekka Palola] wrote, and he talked about the television question. And he said the decision was made back in the early 1960s.
But he said then came the question of, in 1978, whether AV audiovisual equipment and television could be used by teachers, believing teachers, in the classroom. So it was speakers meeting, December 1978, gathered at the Oulu RY.
And they gathered or invited believing teachers, as many that could come as possible. And the decision that was made is that a believing teacher cannot and should not use television as a teaching tool in any form or fashion in the classroom.
Hundreds of believing teachers were there and they left that meeting dumbfounded. How is it possible for us to teach our classes?
And that was written down in the meeting minutes and distributed. I have the meeting, official meeting minutes on my phone. But then in the [Paivamies, Voitto Savela] wrote an article which was summarized in the Paivamies. You can go back one month ago, mid-September, and it said that we cannot make any fast and firm rule that the Holy Spirit will guide us.
Case by case. So I have heard believers say that that decision, official decision that was made was an error. An error was made by that group of people. Was it 500? Was it 700? Was it 1,000? So that's just to illustrate that
Any assembled group of believers of any size has the possibility to err. But the Kingdom of God cannot and will not err
For it is the pillar and ground of truth. The pillar is the picture of the kingdom, but what was on top of that pillar, as Harri used that illustration, it is Christ himself. He is the king of the kingdom. He is the Lord and King. Recently I was visiting with a Finland minister who is here right now and we were talking about the
Trials and difficulties and worries and concerns and you can see in many of his sermons he says that Christ will never leave or forsake.
The weakest, the struggling, the most downcast and doubting traveler on the way. But he reminded us, remember that the kingdom is God's. God is in control of his kingdom. That kingdom will never fail.
The kingdom is, as Jesus said to Peter, it is built upon a rock and the portals of hell will not fail or cause it to succumb. So we are in good hands when using that picture of the ship. Christ is at the helm. He will lead that ship across the stormy waters, avoiding all of the rocky submerged rocks.
All of the pitfalls and he will eventually bring it in to the peaceful harbor there on the shores of glory one day.
It may be that as a musician that I have this image of mother and friends. Mother singing. There's a few little songs. There are lots of mom and dad songs.
It seems like we're listening to this beautiful song, and all of a sudden, somebody takes a little newspaper and starts gloating. And I'm wondering, why?
If you could go back to the next slide for discussion, please. I was looking at that one song that talks about this man and that girl who say, it will be said of them that it's I and they were boring me.
And I found out that also the beautiful scriptural picture of how Zion, the congregation of God, is our mother. And there it gives birth to faith to believe in what the mother says.
And with that, second to the bottom, point how the Holy Spirit exhorts, teaches, and pardons us. The Holy Spirit does not have a mouth, but it uses the mouths of other believers to exhort and teach and pardon. And
If we do not have those ears to hear what the Spirit says in the churches, and we just consider them all to be a potentially [erring] gathering, then our ideas have probably been closed. And it would be important to stop and consider that. Where am I?
And our mind here is adhering to all the old stories absorbed in teaching and learning. God's kingdom has room for the weakest of the chorus, and they will not fall. But those who
Do not want to hear the voice of the Spirit in the prison above to always be the one to teach or think that they need to be the one to teach the rest of the believers. Well, Paul writes, him that thinketh he standeth, take ye.
I know for myself that sometimes when I have questions on my heart, and I'm looking for answers, and if there is anything that is bothering me, I'll want to turn to believers around me to ask
About those matters and to see what I should do or how to take care of them. And there's been some situations I've had where I've asked myself the question of which believers I go to and what kind of answers I will get potentially for them. And with that I've realized that it's one condition of my own heart
That makes me see Zion as a beautiful place of escorts, or as a place of people giving their own opinions and their own thoughts to me. And it's always been the case that maybe one thing I feel like I've learned is that
Even though our world obviously has their own different place in life and they have different ways of seeing things, have belief, that it's not when they have the Holy Spirit that they have the Holy Spirit in them.
Looking to take care of God, perhaps, or to find the right way that God will bless them through the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit, which is in both of them, can guide that conversation. And I've often noticed that even if my mind doesn't want to trust that person who doesn't know how to hold something,
To accept the review for the words of caution, those are the believers that, in the end, that's what I needed to hear, and it's the Holy Spirit that has got to, like, access this work to give those words. And it's true, and it's keeping and blessing me.
I'm paraphrasing from a presentation
His name is Jaakko Kranta. I've never met him before. I'm sure Harri knows him. He's a ordained, believe me, ordained minister in Finland. And he gave a presentation in Helsinki three years ago on the difference between, or he was comparing the kingdom of God versus the congregation. It's a very interesting presentation.
But here he says about the congregation that the congregation is not an organization of opinions, but it is an organization of the truth.
The duty of the congregation is to present, not to present various opinions or options and suggestions about religion that come from man, but the duty of the congregation is to preach the truth and the truth is Christ. So that's our duty and mission is to preach Christ and him crucified. And so,
In the yearbook, SRK yearbook in 19, or 2017, it was about the Word of God and here it says, the Bible, the written Word of God is the only authority. The Bible is the only authority. It is above all and it is above everybody.
The Holy Bible is above all and everybody. The Holy Bible is also the authority of the congregation. The Holy Bible is also the authority of the congregation, and the same author in one presentation in Oulu, which I heard from Oululi Mikkunen's archive, he said it in this way, that the Holy Bible is
Above the congregation. And so, [O. H. Jussila], Oskari [Heikki Jussila], said in this way, way back in 1942, all understandings of faith and our stand of things within Christianity are subject to the written word of God, by which they are examined,
Tried and judged. Even though what we have learned and inherited or seems to be a tradition would be so dear to us, in the end it has to be examined and tried by the Word of God. In the speaker's meeting back in 2018, so just over a year ago,
Speaker, the presenter, Hannu Kallunki, several of you may know his name. He said, the teacher or a preacher is not an authority. Rather, the authority is the unchanging Word of God. So the authority is the unchanging Word of God.
Which is taught with the gifts that God has given. So then, a couple of things about the Spirit. The Word, which is the Word of Christ, must be the rule and touchstone by which the Church, so the Word of God is the touchstone by which the Church is to be discerned and by which it governs itself.
But then he goes on to say, it will not do good for individuals to formulate their own ideas of conduct and act according to them. And then they would as if say that the church is being led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is firmly linked and tied to the Word of God.
Luther says the Word proceeds or goes beforehand, before the Spirit. Afterwards, the Holy Spirit then, after the Word, the Holy Spirit then works through the Word. One must not reverse the order. So first the Word, the written Word of God, and then the Holy Spirit draws from that Word.
So again, Hannu Kallunki said in another place, the Holy Spirit does not give a new revelation which would differ from the Bible. The Holy Spirit does not give a new revelation that would differ from the Bible. The revelation of the Holy Spirit to the congregation is always founded upon the written word of God.
Same kind of jungle here. Trying to put my dogs together. I'm sitting here at home. The Holy Spirit is together.
Jesus said that where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. And how this Holy Spirit, when we hear the voices of the Holy Spirit speaking, it gathers and brings us together. It doesn't cause confusion or keep credit upon
A speaker or other article glorifies God. It's the fruit of that spirit.
There is this understanding that this comes from God. This Holy Spirit is the light and the spirit through the spirit. And if we are to listen to this voice, it answers to our spirit.
I think Brother John, when you're reading quotes from this mother or that brother, we want to be careful of that and not giving credit to them. If God was, through His Spirit, to rule the brother,
We give credit, we give glory to God, let us understand. [unclear]
And I need corrections. You would correct me with love. And of course, you know, in these instances of time, your flesh wants to rise up and justify your actions or beliefs or what you have done. And I think that
You know, looking back, a lot of times you can be thankful for the guidance, and I think even if, like I pray that if I would ever fall over here, maybe that other congregation would correct me, that I would be humbled enough to receive that correction, even if I don't understand.
One question, probably about 16 years ago, comes to mind. I had just moved to the United States.
And I would say, during that time, it was the Biblia that was mostly used in Finland. In Finland in 1992, it was maybe used as a reference book. One of my cousins was concerned that, how do I believe the same way here?
When the Biblia is not used, it's the people of James who are using the Bible. Oh yeah, it's like, people that know me closely, I'm not a very, that dumb person, I don't think about those kind of things. But it came to me, or it's given that answer to me, that the Holy Spirit will fix the translation issues.
Some of the texts out there are coming through King James Version or the Venice Translation.
Clark's don't even talk about the same thing in the same exact spot in the Bible. So it's kind of interesting to me why she was so concerned about my faith here, but it was very easy for me to answer that it is the same faith even if we use a changed version of the Bible. So I'm not sure if that relates to what John was talking about, but
At least at that moment it was clear to me that even if the Word was clear to us before or after it, I still couldn't believe that the Spirit explains the Bible, whether it's in James or in the Bible. So... I will sit down.
By the time I took a speaking turn earlier, I had this thought running through my mind that I didn't quite get it wrapped up into how to bring it out. But then I was reminded of when Jesus was visiting in the home of Mary and Mark,
Martha was cumbered about them and doing a lot of things. And she complained to Jesus that you should tell Mary to come and help you. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things.
John, I feel this is a little bit where you are at. You're being cared for and troubled about many things. But remember what Jesus said, one thing is meaningful, and Mary has chosen that good part which shall not be taken away from her. And she sat at Jesus' feet and listened to his word. And
I think it would be good, well, knowing that the congregation in Minneapolis has asked you to rest, that we would, well, each one of us would seek for that good portion, that one [thing] is [needful]. Sit at the feet of Jesus and hear his words, so that none of us would be lost.
Sometimes, in these discussions, we hear points that are, that appear to be splitting hairs, and that can be very defiant. It's like, well, that's not that far, right? Yeah. But yet, it doesn't seem like it totally jives, either. And I had an experience, you know, a year and a half ago, two years ago, or less,
This is an unbelievable service, a church service. And as I listened to that service, I couldn't really find anything that I could go with or argue with.
And it kind of occurred to me that you kind of have to be careful that you don't make decisions based on only one point. As they're linking the long lines of geometry in two lines, and they intercept at one point, and they would intercept at a very shallow angle.
You have to go all the way home from the point of intersection to finally see that home there and not the same home. So it pulls into the point of intersection in this case that we believe in Christ as our Savior. That's the point of intersection. These discussion points start to pop up.
Close in, they appear to be in the same line. But you go further out and the distance between your understanding begins to decrease. And eventually you will get to the point where the distance between the point of understanding is so great that it's obvious. These are not on the same line.
And again, two records of geometry. If you have two lines that intersect, they cannot go to the same point in the distance. They're not opposite, you know.
Okay, if I can keep my thoughts together here. I've heard that this Matthew 12, what Jesus said, it was asked to think that who is his mother?
But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? And he expressed upon his hand the words of his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren.
And then he, and Jesus said, continues in the next verse, that, for whosoever shall do the will of my Father, who exists in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. So I think this is a beautiful picture about the congregation, how Christ himself
It tells us that we are his brothers, sisters, and this is the group of disciples he is the mother. And he then reminds us that
We, anyone who does these fathers of the will, will be, he said, brothers and sisters, I'm not there to define God's will, but we know God's will. That is in his word, and that is in the Bible. So how then is that revealed to us?
Up in front I think.
That last discussion point that really inspired me. I heard your beautiful sermon beginning of this year that I feel like I have to tell you.
It's very simple to us believers that if we are part of this white team, it's not that one branch is bringing fruit like bananas and other branches bringing fruit like grapefruit, but all the branches are bringing fruit at the same time if we are part of this country.
This one, I talked to John, and you have been remembered, and I would say probably more than just my prayers. We remember you.
This question up here, being a child of God, is it by faith or by understanding? There's been many times I've been very thankful that it's by faith. I've said many times that we could have the same Bible class lesson every week because I forget that quickly. And if we were saved by understanding,
I would be lost. As long as we hold on to this tiny seed, Jesus will not forsake us, but we need to hold on to that seed of faith. He won't forsake us, but we could forsake him. Who?
We need a channel to guide our faith for the life of this community. This love has been heard by our sisters, second illness, faith for understanding. Understanding, for me, would tell us
It would be a constant quest to split eras and a constant quest to looking at the original languages and the original intent and understanding the cultures behind God's Word. As a servant, I am weak in the reading of God's Word.
The look of the Bible is so rich that there's no way that I could fully understand it. Reading articles that are quotes by men and amazing.
Understanding on those is not for me also. I have to go on my own. The Spirit of the congregation, how does God teach us here? It's only by faith that I can believe my sins. Our Heavenly Father, as Jesus Christ said,
But the Father is above him. But he had also, John reports to us that his desire that he goes away, and he will send this comforter. This comforter here on earth, given to man, is this Holy Spirit.
But brothers and sisters, you and I really, we can't have an understanding of all things. We certainly can't take man's word and pass that on as understanding. Men, individual men, err. We all err.
Weak and influenced by our own flesh and our own desires, let me also... These articles that are quoted, I don't know the full context, quoting such a small portion of an article, what is the full context?
God understands us. We're the faithful hearts. Brothers and sisters, the Holy Spirit here on earth guides us, but we can't follow the influence of Jesus forevermore.
He has done the work of the Gospel. The message the whole Bible is, is the message of Jesus. That good message that brother and sister receive.
And in this lowly humble style, brothers and sisters, we need to all, in the will of the Spirit, we need to have that faith. Because understanding of the Word is meant about the Holy Spirit.
We know that the Church is the world after murder. And we need this congregation of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, here on Earth, to have this world unto us. And may all hells end with a good message that Jesus has come. Brothers and sisters, repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
[unclear] I would like to hear from all those Lutheran and Lutheran sisters.
As far as I can remember, it was a good way of gathering at services. Gathering as a congregation at discussion. It was always that same prayer at
The Holy Spirit will lead and guide the discussion. When we gather for services, it is that same prayer. The Holy Spirit will hold the Word of God. God's Word in this way is
A living word in that its law also causes one who doesn't believe to ask that question, where am I? Because what was I if it had not been the same? But the symbol of age-old understanding, and John's came the first way up there, the Holy Spirit is the key.
That's been enough for me. About all that I continue to speak, my understanding is weak. It's boring. We were reminded again in our presentation this evening that what did Jesus say? He said to seek first the Kingdom of God.
And we heard in the explanation and in our introduction what God's kingdom is and how it includes that realm where God is present. But we as humans don't know that realm. We know here God's kingdom. And it's our better day.
And I think it's important, what Jesus said, that we are to see where He is here on earth. Because if we lose sight of Him, we have lost everything, because that's where God is through His Spirit.
And that's where Christ also is. And Jesus tells us how we rejoice that these matters are [hidden from] the wise. He said that again.
This is enough that we can be as a little child in God's name, content with what God knows our needs are, knows what to give us. I also thought about this picture that I'm
Shared in the introduction of the ship. All this is a picture of God's kingdom and how we are in this ship. And how someone might say the course is wrong.
We're going to drop the rapture. We need to change the course of it. We need to remember who holds the helm, who guides the rudder. And we're reminded of that as the songwriter writes it. Preserve and lay the tetanus by storm cost. A sail of wind and weather may give
We need you again and again to turn and ask that the Holy Spirit again lead and guide
And through faith we know that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. But that Spirit can't teach differently than it teaches in God's congregation because it's the same Spirit. And John, I've pondered this, and as you have spoke publicly here tonight, I will also ask the question,
I've been troubled and wondered why it always seems that there's this aspect of, yeah, that's right, but there's always a but. What about this? What about that? I know I understand this week, but when I hear some of the folks referencing that,
And I understand that the brothers you quote are also like brothers in faith though. For me, often the poets just raise more of a jealous-ness question. It doesn't seem to answer. It doesn't for me at all.
For myself, I believe it's important to speak on it being fast. Can I have my answers? That looks pretty good.
In my weakness and my poorness, the devil made me discover that I heard God's kingdom. Coming here to carry a refreshment of faith, I felt the Holy Spirit teach me the presentation of
And also the many comments that I'm so thankful that people have been holding up to speak. It's felt good to be here. And then there's a little bit of a restlessness that comes. Somebody said earlier about the mother
Thank you for having along with us to reach the furthest home. I see that that mother here tonight is with such gentle, gentle loving, call, instruction, patience. I suppose there's been many other
Words to use that a mother would need to take care of the child. Like [Jouko] had said earlier, I marvel too when our kids get small. Their mother would be able to see them all nighter. Not much sleep and so much patience. This congregation bothers. Cut that saving.
I don't hear any, I don't hear any, um, strife coming from the mother. Nothing about the father. And not also my own weaknesses. I wouldn't relate to that, something like that. Don't we all suffer from the same thing?
I'd like to read a verse from the 14th chapter of St. John the 26th verse. The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
The Father who ascended my name, he shall teach you of all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. And the question then that I have is that we've heard of the Holy Spirit this evening in this presentation.
The presentation that was given through the bus. The question I have then is that, is Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
Or is it, as the Scripture teaches, a tribe of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which are one. They are equal, but they are one. And if we begin to put one above the other,
We are not faithful to what God's Word teaches, nor are we faithful to what
Luther teaches in the third article of the creed. And John, you talked about two other creeds, but I think most of us are not familiar with those creeds, but we have been satisfied with that creed that we've
Learn already in Sunday School, which we have memorized in Sunday School. When we begin to teach in this way that God's Spirit reveals things in His congregation in many different forms,
We bring discord into the congregation, and it does not identify the congregation. If someone can explain, if I'm wrong on these matters, I certainly don't want to be causing discord. [unclear]
And I ask that the night be my all sins forgiven.
Thanks for your comment Ron. I think you read God's Word, and God's Word explained your question. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son is not above the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit above the Son.
Just like grace and truth, that order, us Christians recognize the order of forgiveness, the righteousness of faith, then comes the righteousness of life. The heresy of 100 years ago fell into this
We've stumbled a lot about putting truth before grace, understanding it before faith. So, I just think it's a great joy that God's Word is very clear. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God.
Ironically, there would be a time. There aren't any immediate comments. I haven't seen any names. I would ask that I keep a few thoughts. A few thoughts and share them closely so that we can bring them to a higher level.
Thank you. I don't have so much or very special to add for this discussion, but one of the words that came to my mind and how I understand that still this work of Holy Spirit, the work of God, remains as a mystery for me. And then we...
One spot of verse that came to my mind was that how sometimes this Word of the Holy Spirit or how He speaks to us is not... It's by faith, like a mysterious faith, as Paul writes in
To Romans that the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. I have, many times I have experienced that, that I feel, I know, the Holy Spirit tells to me that I believe the same way that this brother or sister.
And many times I feel the same at services when God leads me through Holy Spirit and God's Word.
And that's my understanding that believers have no doubts or problems with that, how God's word is God's word above all. But it makes, it becomes a living word through the Holy Spirit.
Except, we remember this one, the Ethiopian Jew who wasn't reading. That's when he was returning from Jerusalem back to Ethiopia, and he had no idea what was going on.
These scriptures should say to him. But then, God sent Philip to him. And this Philip, rather, opened the world. Why? He had Holy Spirit. And praise the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They had night services. This giving became a child of God. And rejoicing, he went back to his world.
And also, I felt like this also during this other, how Paul says that, how this truth of God's Word or this understanding that God gives us comes to the Holy Spirit.
He reveals the will of God, and to me, it's very easy to believe that I can earn a group of people, but to my flesh, it's more difficult to believe that they can be right, and that my flesh many times would like to be right, and may not receive this
It's teaching that my mother used to be. And I think this, when I was young, I had sometimes many conflicts with my mom, my general mom. And sometimes I used harsh language.
And I thought that why you say to me this and that and why you forbid this and that to me and there are so many rules and I'm afraid because of all this and when I have to be back home and so on. But never I thought that I should correct or I would
Many times I felt that my mom is a little old school and she doesn't understand my life and my needs and my will. But I never thought that she wants to do something wrong or bad for me.
All the time, in my heart, I knew that there is love and she wants to care for me. And how much more the kingdom of God, His mother congregation wants to take care of me than my eternal mom. And like the commandments says that we have to
Respect and honor our parents, and why we wouldn't do this in spiritual levels, that respect and honor our Heavenly Father and our Mother here in the world, which is the congregation of God. Also these discussions and
Talking about matters of faith, I have thought sometimes that it has happened in my life also that I have found that some discussions are not edifying my faith so much.
And it has been more like some kind of debate that you should understand this way or that way. And sometimes it has been good and has come from right, hard, but I have felt that it's my personal experience that sometimes not. And sometimes I have
Say that I want to keep this old path. I don't want to go deeper or have to understand that. I feel that it has taken away my freedom and peace also some way. I have told this earlier also at once.
I came to home. I was very, very tired and down. It was because of spiritual discussions. And I found myself that I told my wife, it seems that I can't believe anymore. It's too late.
This believing is too difficult. I can't believe anymore. It seems to me like this. I don't have all answers for those questions that remain with me and in our whole congregation and between our close ones.
And I want to believe, but it seems that it's too difficult to me. I should ask. How it was earlier, did you have all those answers or better understanding? I answered that no, I didn't have.
Okay, did you be able to believe that time? I told them, yes. How about 10 years ago? Or when you were younger?
And I answered that, yeah, I was able to believe that time without all that or better understanding. And she told me that, okay, it seems to me that you can today believe without all answers or whole understanding.
And I found that those, some discussions made me very, very weak and doubting and took away the joy of believing. And I found that I almost lost this simple
Eight. And there is never a problem to read God's Word or offer writings of believers if my heart is right and I'm looking for food. But also during those discussions years ago, I found that it can be also a different way to read God's Word or whatever scriptures.
If it causes something else or this goal, that wasn't edifying my faith and it was more to change my...
These take other paths that I have believed to go over. And then I have felt that sometimes I have told them that my understanding has been and I still have my sins forgiven, I have peace and freedom in my heart and joy of believing and I want to go by this way.
And I encourage you also to be the same way. And in heaven we have all answers, all understanding, and we see Christ.
We are still there on the border, on our way. I can't change anybody's heart or understanding. I can visit and I can tell how I believe, but only God can change, change heart if it's necessary, like He does with unbelievers and He corrects us.
He opens and encourages us to believe and gives us this understanding once enough to get to heaven. And we should be satisfied with living that. And that's what came to me.
It came to my mind now and I was happy that God showed to me that it's enough that we have a will to believe and then we can freely use our gifts.
To build our church congregation and do all those other things. First of all, we are in the care of other congregations. And I want to bring you, brother and sister, if you have the same situation that I have, why this building is so difficult now, or why I have,
I feel that I can't believe anymore. There are so many ways of those challenges that in God's kingdom there is no. It's the same old [thing] that there has been earlier and even today and tonight.
Believe freely all your sins are forgiven in Jesus name, the precious blood of me. Be like a child. I understand that's enough to me. Or I'll add it later when we have found kingdom and we remain here. And also, I want to ask
Even now, can I hear their applause? I don't even know if my seat is on now, so I don't even know. I understand the way. In closing, a few thoughts about tonight's discussion and presentation. I'll try to keep them short.
One verse that had kept coming to mind that Ron recently read, another one from chapter 16 of John. Jesus is talking to his disciples and he tells them that he has to leave. He can't stay here on earth with those disciples.
He says, Nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away. For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you. But if I depart, I will send him unto you. This Comforter is the Holy Ghost.
We saw many references to what this Holy Ghost is. So the Holy Spirit shows up in that third article of the Creed. We learn at a young age, Sunday school,
Jesus further instructed in his words to those disciples. He said, albeit that he, the spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth. For he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. The Bible tells us the Holy Spirit lives and dwells in this congregation. We heard that at one time. This Holy Spirit is the Comforter. He calls and gathers the enlightened.
This picture that the Bible gives us of Jesus as the shepherd, we need to remember it's because we are the sheep. When we, as those timid sheep in this flock, are confused,
It is this spirit of truth that brings us back into the center of the thought. If we are frightened or unsure, the spirit of truth points the right way. Even in the book of Acts, when those believers of the early New Testament, they met to discuss spiritual matters,
It says they debated and had much disputation. We don't know, I don't remember, I don't know if it says for sure how long that discussion went. But in the end, they all agreed because it felt good to them and the Holy Ghost.
This Holy Spirit guides our lives as believers. And we need to listen, even if we don't understand. Whether we feel we are on the right way or we are not sure where the right way is, Jesus' role
[unclear], this is recorded in Revelation, his message to the seven churches. For each one of them, he told them, listen to what the Spirit is saying in the churches, in the congregation. And each one of you, if you are a believer, you have the Holy Spirit.
This is what gives power to preach that core message of the Gospel, that strength that each one of us takes in being a believer. We could say those words, but if we did not have the Holy Spirit, we would do nothing. The Word of God is indeed the Word of God, as in many churches throughout this world.
Without the Holy Spirit, we cannot understand. Dear fellow travelers, be able to find yourself on this ship desiring to be on our way to heaven.
The Holy Spirit will help you out there. Even tonight, through that power that Jesus gave to his disciples, through that power that we have in the Holy Spirit, you can lift up your hearts and believe, while doubtless and sensitive, that Jesus is with us. Be confident.
This is the kingdom, the kingdom of God. This is God's congregation here on earth. These struggles, battles that we face, God will guide us through them. We need to remain
I also feel myself redoubled and weak and ask that you also bless me. Let's close this evening in prayer and thanksgiving.
Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you for being here this evening in our midst. We know that not one of us has all the understanding that we would like or desire, but that you have given understanding as needed
All the believers in your kingdom. And that this congregation here on earth, this precious mother congregation, this golden candlestick which is the pillar of the ground of truth and is [unerring],
This congregation is where we need to remain in order to make it to heaven. We thank you for giving strength to so many to speak openly this evening. We know that this speech of one believer to another
This is how we comfort each other, and how your congregation is uplifted through the fellowship of the saints. These saints, all believers, desire to simply remain in your kingdom. But when you have given them to use
They would pray, they would willingly fulfill. And if you have changed duties, the entire congregation here on earth prays that those changed duties be accepted. If your father
Comfort each and every one of us tonight. Keep us in your kingdom. Allow us to one day reach home in heaven with you. Lord, bless us and keep us. Make your face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. Lift up your countenance upon us. Give us peace.
The name of the daughter and the son of the Holy Spirit.