Minneapolis Congregation Annual Meeting, March 8, 2020

We will open this year's Annual Meeting with song 208, following Keith Waaraniemi will serve us.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all now and always. Let us unite in thanksgiving and prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, this morning as we gather for our annual meeting,

We desire to uplift our hearts in praise and thanks to Thee that Thou hast prepared salvation for us through Thy beloved Son's suffering death and victorious resurrection. We cannot even begin to thank Thee as we ought, but we can only by faith

Own this greatest of gifts and marvel at your love and mercy for us sin-fallen beings that thou hast created. Dear Father, reveal to us this morning and this day that love that thou hast bestowed upon us that we can be called sons of God

Give us strength to cherish that gift and to hold it more dear than anything else in this world. Give us humble hearts and minds to be obedient to thy word and to believe our sins forgiven in the name and blood of thy dear Son.

Give us strength to hear that which thou speakest through thy spirit in thy congregation. May we have the mind and heart of the servant John the Baptist.

who said, He must increase, I and all men must decrease. There is none holy beside thee. Speak to us, dear Father, this day. Be with us, comfort us.

Cast away all of our fears and doubts and in humility of faith and love, love for one another. Let us seek that which is thy will. And dear Father, that we want to say above all else,

as we thank Thee for the blessings in our congregation to this point in our lives for many of us for a long, long time. But we, as we look forward, we simply want to say, dear Father, that we are lacking in understanding and wisdom

And we can only say, Thy will be done, dear Father, whatever it may be. Above all else, keep each and every one of us in faith until the end. Our prayers are weak. Our sighs arise to Thee.

Dear Father, thou art almighty, all-seeing, all-knowing. We trust in thee in all things. Amen. As we begin our meeting,

beseeching the blessings of God and the guidance of our Heavenly Father. We want to pause around his word as we always do at the beginning of our meeting. And the words that came to me as

I was visiting about this duty with my wife. The words that we discussed were from the 12th chapter of the Gospel according to St. Luke. And I'll read those words in Jesus' name and

ask that God would give what we need from these words. Luke 12, 32. Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Amen.

Here recently, we escorted a 94-year-old sister to her, to the rest of the grave, Marion Johnson. As I read scripture verses at her graveside,

I remembered the words of the Psalmist, the familiar Psalm 23. One thing I have asked of the Lord, this I have desired, that I can live in the house of the Lord forever and behold the beauty of his temple. As we gather here this morning,

Isn't this the central matter, brothers and sisters, in the hearts of each one of us? We have gathered to discuss the work of the congregation. We have gathered to discuss duties and people that serve in duties. But the

essential starting point for everything, for each and every one of us is this, that we have faith of a child in our hearts. Paul has written to the

Corinthians, if I remember correctly, that one thing is desired or one thing is asked of stewards or of servants, that a man be found faithful. And, of course, that applies to sisters as well in the duties of God's kingdom. Faithfulness to the heavenly caller is what is most important.

Heart's faith saves us. We are not saved by serving, but heart's faith sends us forward with the desire to serve God and his children. It is a fruit of faith.

not a privilege, not a something that we seek after in a wrong way, but it is a fruit of faith that we desire to serve God and his kingdom. I've often heard this text written or read and heard and have been

always comforted by that, that it is God's good pleasure, God's desire to give us a kingdom. Peter, the apostle Peter, has written that God would that no one would be lost and no one would perish, that all people would come unto repentance and faith.

But I don't know if I've ever really considered why Jesus and the context in which Jesus spoke these words. This 12th chapter of the Gospel according to St. Luke has many, many things in it. And of course we know when Jesus spoke to the little flock,

or to God's children, his own followers, we understand that he would say to fear not. For he is our righteousness. He is our salvation. He is God.

our shepherd who will guide us through his word, through this life, through his people, his body, the congregation upon earth, onto that day when faith is changed to sight. But when I looked at the beginning of this chapter, I thought that it's remarkable

that the multitudes had gathered together innumerable number of people, insomuch that they were on top of each other, or they were stepping on each other. But Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, not to the multitude. And these first verses of this chapter struck me

how Jesus warned the disciples in this way, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, neither hid that shall not be known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light,

And that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed on the housetops. And I say unto you, my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear. Fear him.

which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say unto you, fear him. So, brothers and sisters, when we even look at those words, and Jesus covered many other things in this text, but all I can think is, oh, how important it is

for me to take heed of those words and for all of us to take heed of those words. That which we speak, as the Bible says, let your nay be nay and your yea be yea, that we speak that which is true and that we speak that in love, caring for one another,

and knowing this, that we cannot veer from the truth of God's word. And Jesus brings out how that which we say will be revealed. God knows all. I don't know about you, dear brothers and sisters, but I know that

The words of James to be very true. How the tongue is a little member but it's a difficult one to tame. And how easy it is to speak that which is unfitting or harsh words or even words that are not fully accurate and true. We're human and we are prone to this

And it's, of course, dangerous for all of us. And a place of watching for each one of us. That God hears and knows all. But yet, isn't it a comfort that it isn't dependent on us, it isn't dependent on man, but it's dependent on God. Our, that is,

all-knowing God who knows all and will lead all and will guide all. But then, without getting into a lot of detail here, well, one thing yet further that I wanted to mention there.

that in this part of this chapter, it talks about fearing one who can kill. How does it say? I better read it. Fear him, which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell. Yea, I say unto you, fear him. Who do we fear? Above all else, God.

Fear God, brothers and sisters, with humble and childlike hearts. God said to Saul who defended himself when he had saved spoil from the war that he was in, the battles that he was in, and then he blamed it on the people

God said to Saul, behold, to obey is better than sacrifice. And now I forget the rest of the portion, but the important part of it was obeying God above all in all things. And so if we lose the fear of God and begin to go on the way of Saul...

defending ourselves and doing that which is from the flesh and blood, which is close to all of us, we know that it doesn't produce good fruits. So this text says to fear him, to fear God above all in all things. And when we fear God, it puts us in the place of a child

that is in need, a child that doesn't rise above the others, a child that wants to hear the voice of God's Spirit that speaks in his congregation. For there we're cared for and helped, and it is the mother of us all. But then Jesus talks in this same chapter about

the worries that we have, everyday bread worries, and so forth, and he gives.

Comforting words like, consider the lilies, how they grow. They toil not, they spin not, and yet I say unto you that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothed the grass, which is today in the field and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Our faith is small and lacking. If we had enough faith, we would not doubt, we would not fear, we would not tremble. But how do we find ourselves, brothers and sisters,

I would guess that sitting here with me are children of God that feel their own lackings, their own worries, their own fears and doubts, because we know it's certainly

clear to all of us that we have had differences, difficulties, difficult discussions that I think it's safe to say have not been resolved. And so, in these things where of little faith and trust, at least speaking for myself,

But I have, in these times, felt this way, and many have expressed and encouraged me in the same way, that we pray in the Lord's Prayer, Thy will be done. This is God's kingdom. This is, as Jacob once said,

when he was before a journey far away from his home, fearing his brother's wrath. Jacob laid down and saw a dream or had a dream. The ladder reached heaven and touched the earth.

And there were angels ascending and descending on that ladder. And herein is pictured the connection between heaven and earth, the kingdom of glory and the battling kingdom upon earth. And Jacob woke up from his dream. And he said, oh, how great this place is. This is none other than the house of God.

That's where we are, brothers and sisters. We're in the house of God. None other than the house of God. And no one else than God and his son through his spirit are leading and guiding here. The kingdom of God is still the same. The same message of the gospel is heard again and again. To the poor the gospel is preached.

So can you this morning, brothers and sisters, from amidst your own questions and doubts, uplift your heart to believe God's word to us. Fear not, little flock. Fear not, little flock. For it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Don't we all want that?

don't we want that first and above all for ourselves and don't we want that for each one of our brothers and sisters those gathered here today and those not gathered here today isn't it so that that's our prayer that's our hope that we would have such a victorious journey

as even our Sister Marian and the other saints that we will remember in a few moments. Sister Marian experienced many trials in life, as did the others. But we know, many of us know, especially Marian's life. And for some reason,

I think today of that picture or that example that God gave us through her, a believer as the others that we will remember that were not good of themselves, did not have strength of themselves, but endured trial and temptation and difficulty, and we remembered

At dear sister Marion's funeral, her children have told me many times how in the midst of difficulty, she went across the street on Russell Avenue to her beloved pastor's home, Elmer Aleuki.

And there she poured out the burdens of her heart, the difficulties that she had, and she heard the gospel of God's kingdom and was refreshed. And I'm guessing that the steps on the way back were a lot lighter. But where did she seek her help from in God's kingdom? The services of God's children, the gatherings of God's children were most important for her.

That is what she taught. She was not. She was human as all, even those that we remember today were. But she lived of the gospel. And that also is a memory that I have of the others. And especially comes to mind

those dear elders that have passed away, who lived of the gospel. I remember, as we recalled even at our brother Carl's funeral, all he wanted to do was hear the gospel in the end of his life. He wanted to make sure

to get home, that nothing would deceive him from this path. Brothers and sisters, this kind of humility is what God asks of us. God doesn't ask much of us because we have nothing to bring, but God simply asks that we believe

and that we are obedient to him and to that which he makes known through his spirit in the congregation of God as we are reminded in the book a revelation he that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the church it puts us in this place

of not knowing very much but trusting that God leads through his congregation and cares for us so brothers and sisters this morning can you amidst whatever fears and doubts you may have receive these words of Jesus as if he were here

visibly present, but he is here nonetheless.

He is here. We see the Lord Jesus, even as we heard through our Finnish brother a few days ago. How do we see him? We see him in our brothers and sisters in faith that are around us. And when they preach the gospel to us, we see the face of the Lord Jesus Christ. Isn't that what we want to stay close to and believe? Brothers and sisters,

uplift your heart even now however you may be feeling whatever mixed thoughts you may have fears even that you may have the gospel is the power of god unto salvation to all who believe believe your sins and doubts and faults and temptations forgiven

In Jesus' name and precious blood, all sins are forgiven. Believe in Jesus' name and blood, all sins are forgiven. Believe unto peace and freedom and joy. Believe that he who has begun the good work in us will conclude it one day. Remain childlikely believing and accepting this, brothers and sisters, and all will go well

If we believe in this way, in humility of heart and faith, each one of us, none excluded, we need to hear this message again and again. If we believe in this way and are subject one to another in humility of faith and heart,

with love one towards another God will help us today this meeting will go well if those are if that is the heart of God's children today at this meeting I think it's safe to say that we need to be open one with another

speak our hearts and minds in freedom of faith as children of God in the family of God. It is important that we speak as we believe. And this kind of freedom and openness in God's kingdom is important. That it, above all, that it comes forth in love and truth.

And openness helps us to understand one another. And may we have listening ears to each other, hear what is on the minds and hearts of each other, and put the best construction on all that our brother or sister says.

And so it leaves us in a very small place, doesn't it, brothers and sisters? I feel many doubts and fears, but I've trusted that God is with us and will lead and guide us. But I want to ask for my temptations and sins and faults and doubts, can I believe too?

I want to believe and get to heaven one day. That's our goal. Believe once again, just as you find yourself, all of your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. And be of good comfort. Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Amen.

Now today, as we begin our meeting, we, let's see, didn't happen to bring an agenda with me up here, but I think I can maybe find it.

We want to take a moment now to remember those who have passed away in faith from our midst in this past year. And our annual meeting agendas have those names listed of members who have, Minneapolis congregation members who have passed away

during 2019, the calendar year 2019. And those dear sisters are Anita Tolkinen, Mildred Koivisto, and Edna Mae Felak. In addition to these dear sisters,

Many have passed away from our midst who have previously been Minneapolis congregation members and have moved away. And also, there are some that have passed away since the end of December 2019.

And so in our agendas, we every year will have those who passed away in the calendar year. But when several have passed away so recently, I also want to note their passing. And that is Paul Nevala from the Cokato Congregation who served this congregation as a board member and speaker for many years.

Bob Jurmu, who did pass away in 2019, who also served this congregation for many years as a board member in other duties. Ani Korpila from Brainerd Congregation was a longtime member of Minneapolis, as well as Ray Jarvie from Menahga,

And of course, our brothers, Carl Seppala and Paul Tolkienan, have passed away now in recent months, as has Deda Jussila and Marian Johnson. And so, as we remember these who have passed away, we remember what the Bible says about

that consider the end of their journey. Consider the end of their endeavor and believe as they did. And so they are as if pointing us, reminding us that our journey is heavenward and we want to

Believe as they did and endeavor as they did and get to the destination one day. So in their memory, let's now stand and sing Saints of God.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Good morning, everybody. God's peace. So, in the beginning, I come before you with so many doubts and fears and feeling my own sinfulness, I ask if you could preach the gospel to me yet. If you remember last year, Jared read a shortened...

annual meeting rules of order and i'll read that again just as a kind of a housekeeping thing so motions are created by one member making a motion and another member seconding the motion only one motion is allowed at a time after discussion motion can be voted on either by show of hands or secret ballot board members are nominated

during the nomination portion of the meeting. I'm gonna take it off again in a minute. Board members are nominated during the nomination portion of the meeting and voted on by secret ballot. And then delegates are nominated during the nomination portion of the meeting and voted on by a show of hands. Also one other thing that we wanted to add here is that because we had

nomination meeting earlier two weeks ago. If you have a ballot, you can fill it out if you have to leave before the end of the meeting and hand it to one of the vote counters. So in the last two weeks, you've heard the announcement for the annual meeting.

And so the annual meeting of the Minneapolis Laestadian Lutheran Church will be held on Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 9.30 a.m. at 13030 47th Avenue North, Plymouth, Minnesota. I'll read this little thing here too that the Board of Trustees would like to welcome all to the 2020 Minneapolis Laestadian Lutheran Church Annual Meeting.

it is again time to discuss the work of the congregation. The prepared reports contain information reviewing progress of the past year and plans for this year. Members of the congregation will examine, discuss, and approve the work of the past year and for the upcoming year. All are encouraged to take a turn to speak. However, voting for approval or disapproval on any matter will be limited to paid members. And then, as has been our custom,

For many years, we have brought a slate of suggested meeting officers to this meeting for you guys to either approve or disapprove. And we would recommend that Patrick [Kariniemi] and Roger Mattila would be meeting chairman today

Matti Ouellette being the alternate, or if it goes along, maybe a fill-in. So those three are here. I've seen them. Secretaries would be Sarah Lutte and Sarah Aho with an alternate of Karen Johnson, and I have seen both Sarahs. Proofreaders, Gordon Kumpula and Nora Warren, with an alternate of Zach Kuila.

and I think I've seen all three of those as well. And then vote counters, Dave Ouellette and Drew Johnson. And Dave and Drew are both here, I've seen them. Alex Kierney is the alternate, but I haven't seen him yet, so is Alex here? There you are, good. So this is a suggestion, and the floor is open now to you.

Bob Kiernamie? Per vote counter? Over here. Second? Okay. Anything else? We would like to have

a motion and an approval and a show of hands for this slate if you so approve. The meeting officers need to be approved by the congregation, so. Okay, Jim, will that moves to accept? Okay. Paul Park seconds. All in favor? Is there any opposed? Okay, so.

With that, you meeting chairmen and secretaries can come up front and start. Our prayers are with you that God would give you what you need to conduct the meeting.

God's peace, everyone. Before we get started, I would like to have my sins forgiven.

so mike was a little ahead he already covered the meeting rules i believe number three so we're ahead of schedule that's good um number four would be the congregation approval of the 2019 annual meeting minutes but a couple of quick things before we get to eugene um if

The committee heads, if you could follow along and then prior to you being ready to speak, come up and sit up here in the front so we can move things along quickly.

during discussion periods prior to speaking, clearly state your name into the mic. And remember, the roving mic requires you to hold it relatively close to your mouth. So be aware of that as well so we can all clearly hear what is said. With that, go ahead, Eugene.

As you can see, this mic can be challenging when you hang it on your ear. So when you come up to take a speaking turn, if your turn won't be long, I recommend just holding the mic off to the side of your mouth. If you hold it in front of your mouth, you're going to get that wind pop that makes it difficult for everybody to listen to. All right. The meeting went fairly long last year. So I tried to summarize this as best I can for sake of time.

So last year we opened with prayer and devotion by Keith Waaraniemi. And again, as we did this year, we sang song 140 in memory of Margaret Bratt, June Karbanen, Esther Waaraniemi, and former congregation members, Delaine Johnson from Prescott Valley, and Bob Jurmu from Rockford. After the meeting was called to order, all recommended meeting officers were approved and present.

The 2018 annual meeting minutes were summarized and approved. So I'll go through the reports. The report for Board of Trustees, I struggled to condense it down. It was full of, I felt, very important content, so it's a little bit long. 2018 was again a year of spiritual difficulties in the congregation. While the spiritual difficulties

While the spiritual discussions, which began in 2016, continued, we also needed to address the major membership shift that had taken place in 2017. Our membership ended 2018 with 153 paid members, remaining stable from 2017. However, the Sunday school roster had continued to decline. It was 136 in 2016, 62 in 17, and 43 in 2018.

We began the year with the need to balance the congregation budget. To do so, the congregation decided to end pastor salaries for both John and Keith at the 2018 annual meeting. To offset this, the decision was made to increase the payment per sermon to $80 per sermon and to provide some additional transition compensation to each speaker for three months.

With this decision and the congregation's support, the congregation came close to financially breaking even in 2018. Over the course of the year, we continued the quarterly congregation discussions. These discussions focused both on the current areas of spiritual concern within Zion and concerns around our pastor. Several meetings were held, and on October 28th of 18, the congregation asked John Lehtola to rest from speaking and teaching duties.

As our congregation has discussed the concerns in Zion, we have seen a spiritual divide within the membership. Some appear to be battling against God's congregation. This struggle is not limited to MLLC, but continues in several other congregations in North America. Throughout these spiritual difficulties, our members generously supported the work of the church locally and on an LLC level.

So the committee reports were given and approved. The activities in committees were mostly unchanged from recent years. Some of the highlights from the reports and discussion are as follows. Sunday school, we had 43 students enrolled in Sunday school with 13 teachers. On average, around 30 students participated each week.

Seventh and ninth grades were again combined. Additional changes were to combine preschool and kindergarten, combine second and third grades, and combine fourth and fifth grades. For Bible class, their curriculum was largely focused on the 12 disciples or apostles of Jesus. That series concluded in March. The board then developed the curriculum for the balance of the spring and formed a small committee to take responsibility for Bible class.

In our broadcasts, we implemented a new broadcasting software at the end of the year. The church website was also updated. Senior circles continued to meet six times a year. Officers serving in 2018 were Dan Ouellette, Chair, Anne Illikainen, Secretary, Jean Wickman, Treasurer. Anne's term expired in December of 2018. The seniors group elected Anne for another three-year term as Secretary to the Committee.

service committee with the shortage of speakers in the congregation, we have had much support from the other congregations, scheduling their speakers to help fill in our schedule. Fundraising activities in 18 were, as in past years, our three bake sales plus participation in FinFest in December. Billing committee

The elevator required some repair work, and Bill Kariniemi obtained and installed new fluorescent LED lights throughout the church at no charge. The cleaning committee, with the reduction in membership, the church wasn't getting as dirty, so the need for cleaning was reduced to regular cleaning the first week and a touch-up cleaning on the second week of each cleaning shift.

The food service, the head of the committee, resigned when joining the Monticello congregation. The other committee members have assumed her jobs. So there was no head of that committee at the end of last year's annual meeting. Overall, the coffee service and meal prep has gone well. Music committee, after last year,

Being a year with a lot of change, the new organist song leader rotation seems to have settled into place and is going very well. The financial report was given by Matt Jacobson, the treasurer, and as of the last year's annual meeting, Mike Jurmu was the assistant treasurer, Josh Ilitella was our accountant, and Gail Keiko was our auditor.

The year 2018 ended with a net loss of about $4,200. As of last year's annual meeting, the current assets had decreased to approximately $189,000. And the budget, after quite a bit of discussion, the 2019 budget was approved as proposed. And then selection of board members last year,

In addition to the terms of the three board members that were expiring, there was one open seat on the board due to the resignation of Becca Ouellette. Also, last year at the annual meeting, Jared Jusula let the congregation know that he was resigning from the board and switching to the Monticello congregation. So the board members, the five that were elected, were Eugene Keiko, Mike Simonson, Mike Jurmu, Gary Ouellette, and Josh Ilitello.

and the delegates elected were Joshua Leitel and Aaron Karame. Reviewing the service schedule, the Christmas Day service was changed from 10.30 a.m. to 6.30 p.m. The New Year's Eve service was changed to 7 p.m. on weekdays and 6.30 p.m. on Sundays. Under unfinished business,

There was again discussion around the congregation decision to ask John to rest. A motion was approved to have a meeting to nominate board members two weeks prior to the annual meeting. So we did that this year. Under new business, we briefly talked about the survey results. After some discussion, it was felt that

An opportunity allowing more time would be beneficial to discuss the issues the survey brings up. So a motion was approved to have the board arrange a meeting to discuss spiritual concerns and another meeting to discuss the building and temporal matters. Also under new business, the pastor position was briefly discussed from a previous congregation discussion from December 2nd.

Following the discussion, with strong differing opinions, a motion was approved to postpone this topic for another meeting. So that was rescheduled. So then we adjourned with a closing prayer by Keith. A copy of the complete 2019 annual meeting minutes have been posted on the bulletin board downstairs and will remain posted for another couple of weeks. So there was a request

to change the discussion portion of those posted minutes, that discussion portion of item nine. So this change request is verified for accuracy using the audio recording of the meeting. So the minutes will be amended per the changes outlined on a separate amendment sheet attached to the minutes. So just for clarity, that request was agreed to

by the individual that was making the request. So as of this time, there is no additional requests for minute changes. So that concludes this report. So we'll need approval of these minutes. Do we have a motion to approve, Tim?

Second, Charlie. Do we have to vote on it then? All in favor? Any opposed? The motion to approve the 2019 annual meeting minutes is approved.

That moves us to the report from the Board of Trustees. The report from the Board of Trustees, just for clarity on this, nine of the, this is truly the Board report. It's not my report.

Nine of the 11 board members were in agreement with it. So I'll read it. It's kind of long, but I'll try to move right along. So membership, at the end of 2019, MLLC had 171 members with 54 children attending Sunday school. That's up from 153 members at the end of 2018.

MLLC had a significant increase in members at the beginning of Sunday school in 2019. While the increase in membership normally would be well received, it has been troubling to know that some new members have not been of one mind, nor in unity with the home congregations they have left. It has also been troubling that many of these new members have been critical of the MLLC board and of the LLC.

In 2019, MLLC was blessed to be served by many Southern Minnesota brothers that willingly traveled from their home congregations to serve us with God's word. Beginning in the fall, we also were able to use the Rockford Bible class teachers and their curriculum for MLLC Bible class. We thank God for their service. We had five congregation discussions over the course of the year, and we heard the voice of the Holy Spirit in these discussions.

Sadly, we also heard a different voice, a dividing voice. Our congregation is clearly divided. The board also is not in unity. We are divided. It has been a difficult and troubling year. Uninvited congregation members have attended most of our board meetings. Attendance has ranged from a few to a dozen at one time. We have heard from these visitors that the board members are being lords over the congregation,

are heavy handed and that the board has not faithfully fulfilled its duties as the congregation has wished. Most of the visitors that come to the board meetings have recently become MLLC members. Together with the visitors, we have discussed many spiritual matters during these board meetings and we have to acknowledge that we have not been in unity nor of one mind and heart.

At the December meeting, when the board asked to be able to meet as a board, the visitors did not offer to leave. The board then formally voted and decided to go into closed session, and the visitors still refused to leave. In 2019, there were LLC meetings with attendees from around North America and Canada. The April LLC

board members workshop in Monticello, the ministers and board members meeting at the LLC Annual Meeting at Summer Services at Silver Springs, the October meeting of Southern Minnesota boards and ministers in Minneapolis, the November meeting of the boards of the Midwestern Area Congregation. In all of these meetings, the unity of spirit and understanding in the North America Zion was clearly seen. One exception was at the board members workshop

where another voice was heard from a few. The MLLC board and ministers hoped that our weekend of meetings in Minneapolis with the LLC board and staff would help us care for the dissension that has become apparent. In these discussions, we heard the voice of the Good Shepherd, and the majority of the MLLC board felt the love and unity of the Holy Spirit with the brothers from LLC.

Our board met with the LLC board on Friday, November 22nd. One member of our board did not come to that meeting. And of the 10 MLLC board members in attendance, nine shared their thoughts, the thoughts of their hearts. Nearly all of the LLC representative took turns to speak as well. We heard the voice of the Good Shepherd and were encouraged that we believe the same as the LLC brothers.

We needed the help and encouragement we received in that meeting. The congregation meeting with the LLC brothers was held the following Sunday, November 24th. Unfortunately, the majority of the people that have been most critical of the MLLC board did not use the opportunity God provided to speak their concerns about the MLLC board and ministers and matters in our congregation.

Nonetheless, in that discussion, a different voice was also heard. Following these discussions and all that has transpired in 2019, we can conclude that the majority of the MLLC board ministers are in unity with the LLC and greater North American Zion that enjoys peace and unity with the SRK and the SFC. So in conclusion,

We need the help of the congregation. Many on the board, though many of us have only served a short time, are getting tired. The battle is taking a toll. It's hard to see how the board can continue to serve with the division that must be acknowledged and with the continued presence of visitors who appear at our board meetings uninvited. We want to serve with the gifts that God has given.

and we don't want to tire or dry up. We need your love, support, and prayers and help if we are to continue to serve. So, is there any comment? You gotta help me with that, Patrick.

no comments or questions for Mike oh we have one hand I can't see who it is over Mike Dennis Johnson thanks a lot Mike for reading what you just read and

I don't want to reiterate what I've said in the past about the joy of being a Christian and the joy of being a part of this congregation and reiterating, you know, the issues of withholding or saved by faith alone through grace or saved through confession. I've shared my thoughts on that and most of you people have probably been at the meetings, but I really believe that

If we are to love one another, as Christ says Christians do,

You would have continued discussions. We can have song services. We can have Bible class. We can have services. Or we can be a part of our family, family of God, and continue discussions. I believe last year, 2019, we were going to have continuation of discussions about the most important thing, faith.

What is our faith? And we don't battle against flesh and blood, against each other, against people. We don't elevate some people and belittle others and say somebody went to heaven and some other people may be a little questionable. No, we believe that whosoever believeth that Jesus died for their sins is...

as a christian and we're happy with that so um i just think that there were some that said that we shouldn't have faith discussions and i believe the board decided to stop faith discussions um it's true that you know this

issues are alive and well. But I think that when you say there's a different voice, it would be edifying to say what the voice is, what the doctrinal, what the wrong teaching is. So we could go to the scriptures, and somebody probably has that scripture portion that talks about we don't battle against flesh and blood, but we battle against wrong teachings and

wrong preachings. So with that said, I would think that sometime during this year we would want to actually do what Christians do and continue the discussions rather than not continue them and just make accusations about other people without any substance behind the accusations. That's all that I have.

Kevin Siljander. So before anybody takes that farther in the weeds here, this is the report of the Board of Trustees. So I'd like to keep it to that if they want to

you know, have that discussion that we'd maybe move that to unfinished business. At this point, it's a report of the trustees. Mike's read that report, so I would suggest that if you have a question about it, maybe you could ask that, but if you wanna sit there and start a discussion about that, you'd wait till later in the meeting. It'd be more appropriate so we can get through the reports here.

Can you rise again? Can you rise again? Can you pass, Kenny? Roland Keranen had a hand up.

As Mike Jurmu himself, this is Roland Keranen. As far as Mike, as Mike Jurmu told me, this is a meeting of the congregation. It's our meeting. So we can discuss matters as we see fit as long as we desire to. So I would appreciate that there would be no attempt to curtail discussion.

In this membership. Could you state your name? Gene Huhta. Thank you. In this membership part it says, some new members have not been of one mind nor in the unity with the home congregation. Now is that fact or is it hearsay?

Is that a question for Mike or just? Yes, for Mike, yes. Well, Jean, my discussion. Or the board, it could be. In my opinion, it's not hearsay, it's fact. I mean, I've heard that from the boards and from the congregations that those members have left from some of them, not all of them, some. Well, Jean.

Yeah, it's not gossip. There was no ill will intended there. And, you know, I got to be honest with you, the discussions we've had with those visitors at our board meetings have clearly shown that we don't see things the same. I believe Denny was next.

I believe that we have lots of things to discuss, and the annual meeting should be, we should go over the administrative happenings, and I didn't want to,

I wanted to point out my inner sincere Christian thoughts on this, but I don't intend that we would have a long-winded discussion. We've got many days ahead of us, but I just think that, I just would like to say that I am in favor of

i'd like to make a motion to conclude this um these meeting minutes that mike read um but i wanted to just share my thoughts but i make a motion that we could conclude what mike read and move forward we had two other hands uh lee was next

I don't think we need a motion to conclude this portion. Lee Mattila. Yeah, for one, my wife and I and our kids moved to this congregation in September and I've not had a

discussion with anybody. It is interesting that the board, rather than maybe showing some unity in their report, chose the other route. You could go one way and show that it's nice to have new members, and then they chose to go the other route where they're critical of some of the new members. Also, in the report here of the board,

They said we, and I'll start there, heavy-handed and that the board has not faithfully fulfilled its duties as the congregation wished. So the November 24th meeting, I was at that meeting, and there was not a secret ballot, there was not a show of hands.

Therefore, the measure of the congregation would be through comments, and the majority of those comments said that the congregation wished that this congregation, we could work our matters out before we called in the LLC, but the LLC board was called in regardless. Lee, I believe your wife was next. Tuula.

I'd like to ask Mike that who did you ask about this bad testimony from old congregations? I'd rather like board members to come ask me if I have some bad testimony or how I believe than go behind my back maybe ask somebody if you ask.

This is rather dividing report and it's not welcoming at all. So Mike, who did you ask about these bad testimonies and what they were, what kind of issues they were? So, you know, Tuula, we didn't ask anybody and we didn't... Why did you write here that there is bad testimony if you didn't ask anybody? So we didn't actively seek...

we didn't actively go to the congregations where members came from, but it's pretty common knowledge that there were discussions with some of those members that have moved to Minneapolis at those other congregations. And, you know, we did have discussions with some of the other boards and, and,

I don't think anybody was trying to create a smear campaign at all. I think it was strictly talking about the way in the journey and how those discussions went. It wasn't anything that we solicited. It was the way the discussion went.

Okay, so next up was Paul Parks.

When I read this board meeting report, I was thinking there should have been a little bit added to it, that maybe the beginning of the members attending board meetings came from some cries for help from some people. There were these difficult and stressful meetings, and one person asked me, you know, who was

That's the condition of the board when I was serving on the board and I said we never had any of those kind of discussions where they appeared to be as these have been reported. And even I believe a couple of board members invited congregation members to attend these board meetings to see what was going on. And I know that Florence went to at least one

as a result of that invitation, but she was not going there to be critical. She was going there to also see for herself what was being said. And so I think that this part should be added to clarify this members attending board meetings without being invited. And also I was,

sad when so many people fled from Minneapolis congregation a couple of years ago and when we see them I'm it's very much fun to visit with them and We we miss them, but I don't think anybody looked down on them for joining other congregations and when I met

New Minneapolis members that have come to our congregation, I have wanted to welcome them and sit down and visit with them also. But I agree there are concerns, but I think that we need to welcome these members to our congregation. Next was Blake Siljander. And a reminder, everyone, please state your name into the mic prior to speaking.

All right, Blake, I just want to say thank you, Mike and Pat. And then what was your name again? Lachty? Miss Lachty? Sarah. Oh, that's right. It is Sarah. Okay. And also, I just want to ask for prayers for Courtney and Thomas, Whitney and Isaac.

And also, Kayla, Paul, and Tim, and Katie, Mary, Leah. And also, I just wanted to ask again for my sins forgiven. Also, for my whole family, my parents, and my brothers and sisters, and cousins. Also, Thayne and Vance, cousins. Next was Hannah Honga.

When I read your report, Mike, a few thoughts went through my mind and I've been thinking about it ever since this packet came out.

There's quite a few stories in the Bible that could tie into what you wrote. I just think of the sinful woman, how the Pharisees were very quick to condemn her.

How Jesus said that those that are without sin cast the first stone. I just think that in this same situation, are you looking at the new members as being so sinful, unworthy to be here?

I think that we don't need to look much further than our own selves, and we see a lot of very bad things. And I think it's very important that we remember that, that we put the best construction on everybody.

And if we have concerns, what does the Bible teach? We go to that person and we speak to them. We don't go behind people's back. That's not right. That's not what Christ teaches.

Also, I think of the Bible portion of the mother, the two mothers who had babies. One baby died, the other survived, and there was a fight for this child that was still living. And they brought the baby to King Solomon, and Solomon said, well, let's cut the baby in half.

Of course, the true mother didn't want that. The true mother wanted to keep the baby whole. And I also think of that story with what was written in this report, that is there that want to divide

And also, there was a lot of casting judgment as well. And what does the Bible say about judging others? I think we all know that portion very well. And then also, the Holy Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit do? It calls, gathers, enlightens. And this report definitely is not calling. It's not gathering it.

And another thing that went through my mind was that would this be that, what would Christ think if he read this report? Is that showing much love to your brother? Lee Mattila was next.

Olikulia. Olikuliala.

Mike, you mentioned that responding to Tuula that we have discussed with other boards. Can you rephrase my memory that when we as a board have done that or clarify what you meant by that? No, Olli, our board has only been in discussions with

the other boards at Southern Minnesota, at MB Mac, and at the Monticello meeting, but we didn't, at those meetings, discuss members at all. That I remember. Okay, so is it still valid that we have discussed with the other board? Is your response to Tuula still valid? What I said I did. I'm sorry? I said I did. You did.

Okay, I heard that we have had discussions. So you have had personal discussions? Yes. Okay. And I just want to be clear that how, when we talk about such sensitive matters, that we are clear what do we mean.

You have discussed with other boards or board members or board chairman about our new members? Maybe I'd say all of the above. Okay. Now, have you approached these new members personally to clarify or hear their side?

You know what, Olli, I would say that we've discussed with all of those, most of those new members that were mentioned in our board meetings, because they've been there. So my question was actually, have you personally discussed with these new members? Just to clarify that, okay, here are concern I would like to discuss.

Have you approached them one-on-one? No. No. Well, that's not true. I have spoken one-on-one with many of them, yeah. But I can't tell you exactly which ones.

Okay, yeah, I wanted to just clarify, because your statement that we have discussed with the board, that's how I heard it, so I wanted to clarify that, okay. I have a comment about uninvited guests. Yeah, that is not too welcoming term. It's not a friendly term, and

I personally have invited anyone who has interest to come and hear or see how board works. I have given

I have welcomed them in a general level, not to specific meetings, but just to build trust and make sure that we have transparency in our board's work. So that's my comment about uninvited guests.

Based on this report, it seems that the main concern and main issue is this uninvited guest and new members. That is the picture I get when I read.

I think it's good to realize that we had issues way before or before we got a recent increase in our membership. So let's not put the fault or blame on new members. Also uninvited guests, that's not a problem. It's more why they are there.

Okay, so next on the list is Risto, but I want to pause briefly because we've been talking about the committee report for over 20 minutes now and I still have seven names on the list. So my question would be is do we want to continue this discussion at this time or...

perhaps table it till new business so we can get through the rest of the annual meeting report or even consider scheduling it for a different time altogether because it does seem that we have quite a bit more to say. Or do we want to get through these seven names and then see where we stand at that time? Well, eight names now. Any thoughts on that before

All right, so next on the list is Risto [Keranen].

Yeah, when I read through this report, I don't know. I guess I don't know what the end goal was for writing all this. We can discuss the way in the journey and freely

speak about how we believe. I don't think we should be taking sides in these, or especially in this type of a setting, in this type of a report, to be casting aspersions upon, I guess, probably half the congregation now. I don't think that's right. And the whole...

What I said at that one meeting, the board meeting, Mike, I asked the question, and it was never answered, that if Christ were at this board meeting or at this meeting, would Christ drive those uninvited guests out of there? I think we both know that answer, that would be no. Christ would open his arms and

He would ask, like the board should ask, what is it that's troubling you? What is it that I have done that has caused offense? I think it'd be helpful to look at it in those terms and that we look, each one of us look at what we're doing

is it is what we're doing causing division is it causing strife it's good to look in the mirror and i think all of us have to do that including those on the board just because you're on the board does not mean that we can't come and ask questions i think it should be a free and open forum for all members

to come and at least listen and at some point even maybe even provide feedback or questions to the board but i don't know i i don't i don't i don't get why this was written the way it was because it is one-sided um

Another issue that was brought up in here was the LLC being called to Minneapolis to mediate, I guess, for lack of better terms, to listen to what's going on. We had a discussion, just like Lee said. There was no vote. There was no show of hands, no nothing to say.

tabulate how many people wanted the LLC and who didn't. For me, most of the comments, the vast majority of them, were that we don't have a problem with the LLC coming at some point. However, we'd like to first have congregation discussions

and talk about those things that are causing divides. But the board or, I don't know, maybe there was just, either the board or somebody made the decision that let's just call in the LLC.

I don't think that was appropriate and I think it was an overstep of the board. It should have been more discussion. So I think this could have been better written so that it wasn't so divisive. Next we have Paul Pylvainen.

when your turn is up to speak, if you could raise your hand again so that Mike can find you a little more quickly. Trying to put my thoughts together here with one less hour of sleep, but I want to thank Mike for his report. Not his report, but the board report. I suppose he had something to his writing, some of it.

The other board members that participated in that report, they wrote, I believe, what was in their hearts. And we heard in our opening sermon today that we would speak what's in our hearts. Elmer used to refer to this as hearts Christianity. It is hearts Christianity. I believe that. I believe that.

If you go back in the history of our annual meetings, you'll see in the board report that the congregation, I can't remember how it was written exactly, Russell or somebody else might remember that, but the spiritual health of our congregation is healthy. I think that's the way it generally started off. And then some years later,

We didn't say that anymore. And probably, truthfully so. When I served on the board, one of the questions that once came up was, are there two spirits in our congregation? I didn't see it, but I don't know everything. I know very little. But we tabled that issue.

I think one of the other things we have to look at is what do we consider the work of the board? Is it first spiritual and then temporal? Is it only temporal? I believe it is spiritual and temporal. Spiritual first. And those that serve only serve what God gives them.

I don't see any difference between our board, the LLC board. They're all the same. When I left the board, if I remember right, I can't remember one day to the next sometime, but if I remember right, I said,

I will try to remember this meeting in my prayers. On this Tuesday night that you hold the meeting. Then it wasn't long after I left the board that I started hearing people are running the board meetings. I thought, what is this all about? Well, maybe I should go.

And I called a person who either had been on the board or still on the board, I don't remember. And I got this response. I said, well, should I go? Should I be going to those meetings? This person said, it's a non-profit and anybody can go.

I didn't know what to say. I should have said some more, but I didn't. I'm fault. I believe the work of the Lord is first spiritual and then temporal. As Keith said in his sermon, there is nothing hid that will not be made known.

Nothing. The Bible says it. It's true. But I would ask, could I believe my own sins forgiven? Next we have Alex Kariniemi. I just have to say when I

I read through the board report. I think in some respects I agree with some of the sentiments kind of expressed, some of the concerns, but I do feel that it was probably, Mikey said that nine of 11 board members agreed to the wording of the report, and I think that's probably true. It probably 100% represents

9 out of 11, and probably 0% represents 2 out of 11. And I guess for my part, I would like to see a report that 11 out of 11 board members would sit down and craft a report that all of us agree that this kind of encapsulates the issues that we've been dealing with, and it's reported to the congregation in an objective and fair manner.

And I don't really think that this report was that. And even if I maybe have some disagreements with somebody, I still think that perspective is very important. And to not include that perspective, you're kind of saying that it's not important, but it is. Because all these members here, everyone here in this congregation is very important to all of us. And I just remember that last congregation discussion when we had that.

The LLC brothers came in from the West Coast. He told that story about that when the elders were maybe rebuking that group of young boys, and the one boy ran out and stormed out of the room, and the old Finnish brother followed him and put his arm around him and said, well, we don't want to chase you away. And I felt like that was such a beautiful picture, something I've thought about many times since then.

And I just felt like that this letter, I didn't sense that in this letter. And some of these new members have even said I've heard in their voices that maybe they're feeling like they're being chased away. I just, I don't know how that's ever gonna be, that's not productive. And so even in this report, let's include all perspectives.

sit around and get to 11 out of 11 and say that, well, this is an objective representation of what we've been dealing with. And I think that's a lot, a much more healthy place to start a discussion. Roland Keranen.

Yeah, Roland Keranen here. Yeah, I listened to Keith's speech this morning, and somehow it seems at odds with this, what I'm reading here and heard from Mike. And it seems like there's a lot of finger-pointing and then judging new members and making somehow this statement that somehow the people recently joining are somehow suspect. I don't, you know, it's like...

I think somebody mentioned earlier that those that have switched to other congregations, there have been no comments made. But somehow when people switch to this congregation, in many cases switch back to this congregation, then somehow there's a problem. As far as the role of the board goes, the phrase lords over the congregation came up there. Those were my words at a board meeting I attended. We started out initially attending these board meetings, as Paul Parks outlined,

not with somehow a critical ear, but there were noises coming from there that were a little unsettling, and so many of us went there to attend to see what was indeed happening, edify ourselves, and I have to say I had gotten quite an education. It seems that the attitude that I came face to face with at the board meeting was that of kind of a critical

questioning, why are you here? Don't you trust us? And so on. And so then at the board meeting that Lee referred to, there were a number of us there, and the comments were made that you are recent members, that there's somehow something wrong with you because all of you that are coming are fairly new members. What are you here for? I got the clear impression that

The board feels that they're an autonomous body out of themselves. They can start making decisions for the congregation. Don't you question us. And I don't think any of us went there with the idea that the board was somehow being underhanded in these temporal duties. I feel firmly, and I've read in the 5MAS also with regard to these, also these things that regard to the role of the board and the congregation, that is primarily temporal.

They facilitate spiritual discussions, but at the end of the day, the authority and the spiritual caretaking rests among the congregation members. It is the congregation at large that makes these decisions and discusses these. And they are also the caretakers of the board members and the speakers in the congregation. It's not the other way around. I would wish that in the future that this attitude would change. I did speak to one Seattle board member when he was visiting here recently, and he

said that the view there in seattle is this that there are no no place to tell the congregation members whether you can attend or not because we serve the congregation so in other words the congregation sets policy for the board the board then carries it out okay now obviously we entrust the board with decisions that we don't need to get involved in a day-to-day temporal basis that kind of a thing

And I think that is the proper role for the board, and we're not there to second-guess them on this. But when it comes to the spiritual part, and there's division in this congregation, I think we all acknowledge that. But it's in the way in which we approach it. We don't need divisive letters like this that we just read. But rather, yes, we can acknowledge that there's division, but then how do we go about trying to bring the two quote-unquote sides together?

We're also speaking from our hearts. We heard from somebody who said that, well, this was written from the heart, but somebody, well, please remember that there's also the other half of the congregation that speaks from their heart too. It's like Keith said, let us listen to one another in love, put the best instruction on what each and everybody says. Next up is Eugene.

Eugene Keiko. I have so many thoughts in my head. This report, of course, supported the content of it. I don't know how we can't speak to these matters that are troubling. Obviously, with a divided congregation, we're going to perceive this report in two different ways. I find it sad.

and revealing our condition in our congregation, just hearing the responses to this report. And then the board meeting attendance, regardless of how we might perceive these individuals coming, I personally found it a little bit troubling that last summer, fall, we had what you can call a

a surge of new members, and many of these new members are then coming to our board meeting, which in itself, if they were coming there with a sense of support for the congregation work, the work us struggling board members are trying to do to serve the congregation, that's one thing, but I have a sense

the majority of those guests coming are there criticizing the board, our speakers. We're there trying to serve the congregation members that have entrusted us to do this difficult work. And then on the congregation discussion, when we asked the LLC board to attend,

I guess in hindsight, if we would have gone longer with the discussions, we would have probably heard many more comments, pro, con, and perhaps also in hindsight, had we had a vote, maybe that would have been defined clearer, the direction that we should have gone.

But what has really bothered me since that meeting is again our lack of unity. I have listened to many of these brothers in sermons. My heart says amen to them. I find it sad that we have a part of our congregation that views them as

People they cannot spiritually support, they cannot receive help and instruction from them. So yes, we have a divided congregation.

Okay, so next up is Kathy [Waaraniemi], and then we have five more people after her at this point. I believe after these names on the list are completed, we're gonna have to table the discussion and continue it towards the end of the annual meeting in new business. Otherwise, we quite simply will not get done what we need to get done today. So, Kathy.

As I've listened, I've just had a question in my mind. Is going to board meetings and criticizing the board showing love? Blake was next.

I'm Blake. I just wanted to thank Keith and George and Russell and all the ministers because they've guided me in my life. They've been there for me every day. I call them and also George Koivukangas and also I was just hoping and praying for as much as I've talked to Kari about it and I was just wondering if you guys could all still pray for us and [name unclear] and

and also my friend Kevin. Thank you. Can you ask for the censor going in too? Next is Gary Lehtola.

So this board report talks about unity as well.

talks about how there's unity across the board and all these meetings across the country and that type of thing. Unity is fine, but in what we're talking about here, we're talking about unity of the work of the kingdom and how we believe, and that unity needs to be based on the Bible.

and on scriptures. I've got an article here on the quote. It says, therefore all instruction must be based on the Bible. Instruction not based on the Bible is only the opinions of people which do not have the authority of God's word. And then as far as trust, trust in that type of thing

Luther states in his commentary to the Galatians, and he's commenting on Galatians 5.10, he says, I'll trust you as long as you remain in the truth. If you fall away from the truth, I will not trust you anymore. Bill? Next is Jeff [Mattila].

Okay, I guess I didn't realize I raised my hand, but hold it close to your mouth. Yeah, I got a question for you, Mike. Can you tell me if my home congregation that I left had brought my name up? No, Jeff, I haven't. No, you and I have had personal discussions, but I haven't, nobody's said anything to me about you, no. Okay, so I did attend a couple board meetings.

And nobody ever approached me and told me they had concerns for me. The only thing I heard is from the board saying that they were very disappointed to see the people show up. Why are you disappointed to see people show up? I mean, you should be concerned or be happy that they're showing up. They're showing up because they have concerns.

Speaking for myself, I just showed up to listen. I'm not one that has much to say. I sometimes think I want to say something, but as of now, like you can probably tell, I get real nervous. And I think everyone should feel free and say what their thoughts are.

And the board should also encourage that. We had these congregation voted as a whole congregation to have these doctrinal meetings, discussions on Wednesdays. And it was, from my knowledge, it was the board decided to avoid those.

And why didn't the board come back to the congregation

and ask them if they wanted these doctoral meetings to be ceased, rather than just decide on themselves. It's been brought up, and I think I've asked that opinion, that question, and the only thing I got was there was a couple, and I think it was you, Mike, you said there was a couple older members that said they would quit coming to the discussion. But you know what?

They, along with everybody else, were here to vote on that. And why would we just terminate these discussion nights because of a few members voicing their opinion?

I think the board should try to encourage each and every member to feel free and talk rather than give them the feeling that they're scared to talk. I myself, on these doctrinal discussion evenings when that came about, I was really excited about it because I thought, well, maybe that'll help me, encourage me to be able to talk.

But when I went to a couple of these board meetings, I got the feel and it just made me feel like I couldn't talk anymore. That's all I got to say. Next up is Anita.

I would just like to say that the majority of the MLLC are in unity with the LLC and Greater North American Zion and enjoy the peace and unity with the SRK and FSC. Not just the majority of the board and the ministers.

also the majority of the congregation. I'd like that part included. Josh, you want to tell them?

I think that it's important that the board reports on the situation as we see it in our congregation. It is a difficult report, but it's difficult because of the difficult times we are in.

Many of the people who have attended our board meetings have said we've overstepped and we heard that today already and Others who've come to our board meetings have asked that the entire board resigns The report is not meant to be personal against anybody but but the congregation needs to know the situation and

We are all in, the board is in, and they need to know the messages that the board has heard. The conclusion of the report, we need the help of the congregation. Though many of us have only served a short while, we are getting tired. We want to serve with the gifts God has given, and we don't want to tire or dry up.

We need your love, support, and prayers if we're to continue to serve. And that's the message that this report that I wanted to leave everybody with is the last, the conclusion, sorry, the concluding paragraph. Okay, so

We're going to table this discussion for the time being so we can continue to get through more of the agenda today. So that'll be all from Mike at this point. You can take that mic off. We can continue it during new business, but we do have a lot to get through prior to then and we've already spent nearly an hour on this topic. So we'll continue this discussion

Oh, do you have closing comments, Mike? Yeah, if I could just say there's been kind of a common theme about this being a, and maybe I'm paraphrasing here, but being a dividing report. And I think what this report shows

what I would say we intended to do was to bring forth and make it clear that we're divided. So I don't think the report is dividing. I think it acknowledges the fact that we are divided. And you know, many of the comments

You know, this is why this report is in here is because the board can only serve the congregation if it's in the love of the congregation and if the congregation supports the board. And so if the Minneapolis congregation doesn't support

us that serve then what we need is we need you to tell us not to serve and if you do support us we need you to tell us that but you also need to help us and the the division that we see and that we feel

is is tiring and we've tried to battle faithfully we've tried to do the things that we're supposed to do but if that's not the will of the congregation then you know what we need to know and so again this report wasn't made

in some ways to divide us. It's acknowledging what we've seen and what we've heard and what we've felt over this last year. Jeff, I keep looking at you because you made a comment and I'm struggling to remember it now. What's that? Yeah, the canceling of the doctrinal discussions, it

If the thought that was left was that there was a couple that were uncomfortable, that was a wrong thought in a communication. It was more than a couple. It was many, and it was the elders mostly that spoke to us.

that told us it was so uncomfortable and so bad. And so what we did is we thought it would be good to have Bible class. And I've gone over this all before, so I'm sorry if I bore you all again. But we decided that it would be better to have Bible class so that everybody's welcome. And then we did have five congregational discussions over the last year with the intent of continuing those discussions. So there were five.

congregational spiritual discussions that we did have. So with that, we can discuss this more, but I think it's really important that we do continue this discussion. All right, so next up is the Youth Work Committee with Charlie Hollinan.

Okay, committee members, Nora [Waaraniemi], myself, Emily Parks, Josh Giulietalo is a board contact. Review of the past year. Over the past year, Youth Committee has once again felt the blessings from God. We have felt one-mindedness on the committee and God has given willing workers to perform the work. Members are free to express their thoughts on differing opinions and have considered in the spirit of freedom and unity. The main function of the Youth Committee is the support of our youth in our walk of faith.

By having youth discussions and other organized events, we wish to support the home teaching. These are important and good events, but we also want to encourage parental guidance at home. Last year, there was a sledding party. Sledding evening in February, we had a seventh, eighth, and ninth grade haps with much positive feedback. The committee also coordinated the presentation and fundraiser for the Camp Work Youth Work Week, served ice cream and sundaes following the presentation.

Thanks to all who supported our youth and their time and resources this past year. Plans for the current year. We have 2020. We continue our coordination with area congregations. So we have events each month at one of the Southern Minnesota congregations. This schedule has been made to prevent conflicts at the events arranged for the youth to maximize participation at these events.

The Minneapolis Youth Committee would like to continue to focus additional attention on the younger youth that have reached the independence and self-sufficiency of the older youth. Plans to continue seventh, eighth, and ninth grade haps in homes. Plan a day camp at the park for grades two through eight. Plan a sledding day yet this year, although that's looking pretty iffy. Continue to visit and help with a project with those seniors that sign up.

And any questions or? Okay, there's a question back there. Linnell?

I just think it's refreshing to hear that on this committee the members are free to express their thoughts and that differing opinions have been considered in the spirit of freedom and unity. I think that's how committees should operate. That's a real healthy atmosphere. And it's probably not a coincidence that they haven't had a problem with people showing up to see what's going on.

Is that all for Charlie? All right, so next is Sunday school, but before we do that, Kenny had had his hand up. I'm not sure.

Do you have a strong voice, Kenny, or do you want to wait for the mic?

Is this comment about the ballots, Kenny? How about the nomination? Can we wait for the nomination portion of the... Are you ready? Yeah.

So concerning the nominations for new board members, I see the ballots have already been distributed and it's been mentioned that you could vote and leave at your leisure. So therefore, I'd like to make my comments now concerning that issue. So I've been thinking about this nomination for the board and the nominations that we did last year, which included at least one woman. This has been on my mind from time to time.

I recently found myself in the company of five ministers, so I asked them, can any of you make the argument using the Bible that it would be good and proper to have a woman serve on a church board? I was amazed because I was looking for information. I was amazed that none of them could. They could cite examples where it has or being done, but they could not use the Bible as a reference.

So let's take a few minutes to see what the Bible says, not just about man or woman, but also in reference to age. So these references I've found, none of them use the term board member or board.

But it talks about serving in the congregation in one capacity or another. So Titus 1, 5 and 6. For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee. If any be blameless...

the husband of one wife, having faithful children, not accused of riots or unruly. Then in Acts 14, verse 23, And when they had ordained them elders in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. Also in Acts 6, verse 2 and 3, Then the twelve called the multitude of disciples unto them and said,

It is not reason that we should leave the work of God. So this is the 12 disciples calling the multitude of other disciples onto them. It is not reason that we leave the work of God and serve tables. In other words, temporal duties. Wherefore, brethren, look out among ye seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

And then in 1 Timothy 3, verse 12, let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their houses well. And then in 1 Corinthians 14, verse 34, let your women keep silent in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak.

but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And then in 1 Timothy 2, verse 12, But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. So then let's take this one step further. If you still feel that having a woman on the board would be wonderful,

How about if the entire board was women, including the chairman? Would you still feel that would be wonderful? And then, of course, if you're one of those who would like to ignore or change the word in the Bible, I remind you of the portion from Revelations 21, verse 18 and 19, where I testify unto every man that heareth the word of the prophecy of the book. If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, out of the holy city, from the things which are written in this book. So I would conclude with this. This issue is an important one. It is not about feelings. It is not about equal rights. It is not about being chauvinistic. It is not about the perspective that a woman would bring to the board.

but rather it is about trying to follow the instructions in the Bible. And I will have to say, according to the Bible, from what I am able to glean out of it, it would be wrong to put a woman on the board. Do not take my word for it. Refer to the written word. Woe unto those who ignore the written words. For this reason, at this time, I make a motion

to strike the name of Anne Parks from the list of the nominations to the board. Tenney? So it is an open meeting and a motion can be made at any time. And we do have a motion on the floor. You know, I...

I'm really comforted that someone is reading from the scriptures, basing one's faith, basing the church, basing one's thoughts through the scriptures. It's politically incorrect

to base one's faith through the scriptures. We don't base our faith off what's politically correct. We base our faith off the scriptures. What does God say? And all I can say is that I have a love for God's word. That love for God's word happened

when some minister maybe five years ago was pontificating about not preaching the gospel to some fellow human being asking for the gospel and he had his long-winded story as to why you would withhold the gospel and it caused the whole church to go up into an uproar wondering what is happening

And that minister is still preaching today, and I've approached the man. And all I can say is I really am happy that Kenny has had the courage

through Christ dwelling in him to share the scriptures. And I have to second Kenny, God's word, not Kenny's words. These are God's words. And I have a lot of empathy and compassion for any board, any congregation that has limited number of people. Surely you use, you know, whoever's available, but...

We have a large congregation. We have competent men and women. And women have a different role in life than men. And we live in a culture where these roles are being twisted. They're being swapped. Women are behaving like men and men are behaving like women. It's the culture we live in. So we don't change our faith based off the culture we live in.

And the last thing I want to say is that Christ gave his life for mankind. A husband gives his life for the children, for his spouse. He's not head of the house as some dictator. Likewise, the board should be as Christ was for the church. So I second Kenny's suggestion

And as sad as it is, Ann is a wonderful person. Her faith is very, very dear. She bases her faith off the scriptures. It's hard for me to think that someone grounded in faith shouldn't be like Ann, but the reality of it is, are we going to base our church through the scriptures or through our perspectives?

our own personal perspectives of the culture we live in or what we may feel. So I have to, I just believe God's word and I have peace with God through his word, through Jesus. He died for my sins, I believe that. Thanks for your weak words, Kenny.

Kenny had his hand back up, and I would ask you to state exactly what the motion is so I can write it down once you get the mic back. I don't want to interrupt, but there's pizza on the way, and it's noon already. We should probably get this meeting rolling so we can get through at least the agenda and hopefully the new business by the end of the day. So I'd encourage people maybe to hold their tongues, tell new businesses.

Just to make the motion perfectly clear, I make the motion to strike the name of Ann Parks from the ballots and to do this by private ballot. To vote by private ballot for striking her name from the list. So Debbie had her hand up.

said it at the nominations two weeks ago, it was closed at that time. They said at that time that there was no... I can't hear you. At the meeting two weeks ago when we made the nominations, they said the nomination process is closed. There will be no changes. That does bring up a question of

If we can't add names to the ballots at this time, then it would stand to reason that we can't remove names from the ballots at this time as well. I'm not saying that's what we're going to do. I just bring up that question that because of how we voted at last year's meeting, that we would.

to those rules um would anyone be able to clarify that point because we do have several names or people looking to comment and i would like to clarify whether or not the ballot can be all altered at this point or not which would matrick maybe um this is mike jurmu um you know i as far as

I recall when we had the nomination meeting, and it's the first one we've ever had in this congregation, so bear with us. But the idea that was spoken to then was that the nomination meeting would be the final arbiter of what names are on the list. And so I think that this discussion should have been made there,

But we also will have a chance when it comes to the selection of board members to speak to these issues as well.

To Kenny's point, that if people have to leave and they have a ballot, they can fill them out and give them to a vote counter, that's true, but Kenny, you've made your point and we've listened, and so I think this discussion could continue at the time that we choose board members, but as far as I'm concerned, the list of nominees is the list.

So I think that the bylaws of the congregation would be what we would want to refer to in this instance.

I don't have a very good knowledge of them, but I did read through them and I don't recall there being any restrictions on who could serve on the board based on the bylaws of the congregation.

other than that they were paid members and a few other qualifications. I don't recall there being gender or age listed in the bylaws. If someone can confirm that for me, I would very much appreciate it. And if that is the case then, then can your motion would not be allowed to be voted on because it would be in direct conflict with the bylaws and we can't pass a motion that conflicts with the bylaws.

it would need to be made to change the bylaws. And so if someone could confirm that, then we can proceed. Eugene? I just want to confirm you said that correctly. According to the bylaws, there's no gender qualifications.

There's no qualifications in the bylaws about Kenny's motion. So I'm not sure we have an open motion on the floor how to deal with that. It'd be good if Kenny could withdraw that motion and we could leave that discussion for when we're talking about board member election.

But I also agree that the nomination, the ballot is considered complete. We for sure cannot add any more names to the ballot as far as taking names off. Not quite sure what the answer there is, but we can certainly all not vote for that individual if we agree with the comment. Billy, if Zach could speak, I believe he can lend some clarity on

I'll be quick so Evan can get a turn. I don't think Kenny's motion is against the bylaws to strike a name off the ballot. And it has been seconded, so we do have to deal with the motion. And he can't withdraw it himself, because now that it's been seconded, it's a motion for the whole meeting to consider. And I had another thought.

Yeah, I think what Mike was saying, it'd be good to maybe push this stuff off till later because we're not even through the first committee report and it's already lunchtime, so we'll be here all day if we keep getting derailed. Also, if we do have a motion that's been made and seconded, we would need to address it prior to moving on to anything else. I'm still not sure as to whether or not you can make a motion to

bar half the congregation that would be eligible from being board members, from being board members, making no comment on the motion itself. I'm just, that's my question. Evan and then Keith.

So the motion itself is defective. There is no process to un-nominate somebody from a nomination process. It's called a nomination process for a reason. It's supposed to be an open and fair option for members to put names for to be voted on and for

for a Democratic, or if you want to call it mob rule, to hammer down because you have a majority vote and you want your slate of three people to come back and say, well, we want to remove one of our people from the list because we have too many. That's more mob rule than republic. But it's definitely out of order because a nomination process is supposed to be an open process and to allow everybody to have an opportunity to nominate a name.

The nomination process doesn't close until someone doesn't have another name to nominate. So it's not a mob rule situation with that. They can't just come back and hammer names out. So I'm genuinely unsure as to how to proceed.

I feel like the simple logic is that we had our nomination meeting and the nominations were made, and at that point the ballot is fixed. We do have rules that guide us in how to deal with motions, though, and we have a motion that's been made and seconded, and we should, based on those rules, vote on this motion.

uh i believe keith has the mic then we'll go to kenny and if i don't have some type of resolution in my head at that point i'm going to call a timeout and call some people up here to powwow with me and we'll make a decision so go ahead keith

With regard to the content of Kenny's motion and speech, of course we all agree with the Bible portions that he read. They're very important, and I think they're very important as we consider the board member selection today that we prayerfully will proceed to at some point in the meeting. Those are...

That was a good set of Bible portions that speak to the heart of the matter of serving God's congregation and being in the love of God's congregation and the qualifications of someone serving God's congregation.

But I would say this, that in the discussions that I have heard, in what reading I have done, I know it can be a confusing question, but I think the confusion is not with God's Word. It's with us in this way that we don't know

the makeup the organizational work of the new testament early new testament congregation from which these bible portions have been drawn the bible says a lot of things but the bible doesn't fully describe everything nor can we

directly apply these terms like elder, minister, etc. from the Bible to our time today because there are differences in the way God's congregation is organized for the work today from that time. And there's differences between the church in Finland or the believers in Finland and Sweden

and the way we are organized here in North America. But women have served on boards for years and years in Finland and Sweden and in America. This predates you and me, Kenny, even though we're getting up there in years.

It has been for a long time. There's several small congregations that have had sisters serving in that role. And if it would have been spiritually wrong, God's congregation would have spoken to it. And so I think that the question is in what the New Testament portions were referring to that Kenny is referring to and how we are organized today.

And if you look, I could read one portion from Romans 16 that talks about at least one sister. And I'm not saying that she was how she was serving or that she was serving as a board member, but I'll read that portion.

I commend unto you, Phoebe, our sister, which is a servant of the church which is in Cenchrea, that you receive her in the Lord as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you.

For she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also. Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my helpers in Christ Jesus. So I don't think it's correct to make that kind of...

declaration based on these bible portions that it's contrary to scripture that a woman would serve on church boards as we know them in america and as they know them in finland and our wives i just i i don't if if that were to be the case

How could we look at it this way that Finnish Christianity would have been for years and years and we here as well going contrary to scripture. I think the important thing in board member selection is to look at the

that they are in the love of the believers, that we are comfortable with their understanding of matters of faith and the matters of our time, and that they will serve God's congregation faithfully with the gifts that they have been given.

Okay, so Kenny also had his hand up. I've been told that the pizza's here, so after Kenny's comment, we'll break for lunch. Maybe his comment will lend conclusion to this. Otherwise, I'm gonna take the easy way out and pass it on to the afternoon meeting moderator. You're welcome, Roger.

Yeah, so the chapter 16 of the Romans, that goes on and talks about many different ladies. It names them and greets them. I have read that portion. But the good part is whatever, I couldn't really make heads or tails of it. You know, what

Whoever wrote that, Paul was it, I guess. But the good part is those other portions that I referenced, they're quite clear. And I know that Keith made the same argument that when I talked about visiting with the five ministers I was in the presence of, they used the same argument. Well, it is being done.

What being done is not necessarily what the Word of God instructs. I, of course, am not going to go to Finland and try to figure that out. I have inquired through a friend of mine that has very close relatives in Finland, but I haven't heard back yet. I will someday.

But anyway, my motion is in order, contrary to what Evan said. These names can be struck from the list. We could as a congregation vote to strike them all from the list if we so felt. It is up for vote by private ballot, and the votes will decide, make that decision for us. It's not really that big a mystery. It's actually quite simple.

So specifically to that last point, I feel that the votes would decide when people cast their ballots for board members. I'm not convinced that it is in line with our meeting rules simply because of setting the ballot at the meeting two weeks prior. But at this point, I guess I'm saved by the pizza and

I would hope that some people can discuss it over lunch and we can have a meeting or have a conclusion as to, I guess I'll say, the legality of the motion. But when we break for lunch, I believe we have a song. Is that what we do? We stand and sing the meal song. There it is.

Oh, that's a good point. What did we do last year? It's 12.17 now. That's 42 minutes. I hope everyone can eat fast. 42 minutes. We'll compromise. 10 after 1, we'll be back in here.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

I'm just going to take a picture of the .

So where were we exactly? We would have gotten through the first committee report that was Charlie's.

Did we get to Sunday school? We didn't even get to Sunday school. No, no, no. So Patrick's up. So it got hijacked. It got hijacked on youth work, right? Charlie Holland? Yep. He was done with his, and then Patrick's up next. And this is where it was. So Charlie was done. He was done, yep. Thank you.

Okay, how do I turn it on? Testing.

As soon as possible. As soon as possible.

Yeah.

Do we start with the songs?

I think we'll just roll right into it. Okay.

Okay.

Sing the second verse of 434. 434.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Okay, we'll get our afternoon session started and rolling along here. Before we do so, could I have my sins forgiven? It's been brought to my attention that

Some members arrived late and they didn't sign in. And we would like them to do that and they can get a ballot at the same time. So if you could make sure and get signed up, that would be great.

We need to conclude the Youth Work Committee report. Charlie, were you done, or was there anyone else that needed to add anything? Is that completed? I was done. OK.

Kenny had made a motion then under that section to strike Ann Parks' name from the ballot, and it was seconded by Dennis Johnson, so I think at this point, in order to dispense with that motion, we should call for a vote, and I'll do that now. So,

We can wait a couple of moments for the last people to sort of straggle in here, but otherwise we've got to keep moving along.

OK, so the motion has been made and it's been seconded. So at this point, I'm going to call for the vote by a simple show of hands. And so all those in favor of removing Ann Parks's name from the ballot, signify by raising your hand. And all those opposed. OK, the motion fails. We'll move on to the Sunday School Report. And Patrick [Kariniemi].

Sorry, I was trying to get a cup of coffee before we started. So for Sunday School, the committee members are myself, Dave Lokesa, Aaron Karenymi, and Charlie Hollinen. We currently don't have a Sunday School music coordinator, so that portion of Sunday School we haven't been doing. The Sunday School program was done by Kelsey Karenymi and Anita Karenymi this past year. And there's two additional notes that I would like to make.

One was, I know there was, we canceled Sunday school a couple weeks back. I just wanted to clarify that we haven't had any issue with teachers showing up. Teachers in attendance have been very consistent and very diligent. It was just a set of, several sets of unfortunate circumstances that left us quite short that day. So I wanted to address that.

And the other thing I wanted to remind all the parents and teachers is that we start Sunday school at 9.15, which would mean let's try to be there at 9.10 so we can start at 9.15, not arrive at 9.15. Any questions? Next time I will, because I'm almost done here.

Just a question that I know at any given Sunday morning there's probably... James, can you say your name for the record? Speaking here. At any given Sunday morning, there's six to eight fathers back here, maybe a few mothers that would be available for teaching Sunday school. I'm just wondering that maybe Patrick, you could try to incorporate those people into teaching also.

That's just my comment. I know there was one Sunday where there was a teacher missing and we were gonna try to put them all into my class. Well, then that makes it quite a bit of chaos, especially when we got six or eight guys sitting back here that could be fully capable of teaching. So I just thought maybe they should be incorporated into the schedule to be used as teachers. I think for the balance of this year, we're gonna continue to do things

you know, with the group of teachers we've had at this point just because trying to get changed teachers mid-year. The kids get used to the teachers, the teachers get used to the kids. And next year we'll have a lot more teachers available. So Pat, last Sunday there was no Sunday school for the lack of teachers.

with as many gifts as we have now, would that be the case again, that we would cancel Sunday school again because of the lack of teachers, if a few call in sick? I don't foresee us needing... Oh, that was Lee Mattila. Lee, can you say your name for the record, and then for every speaker from here on out, can you start by just saying your name? Yeah, that was Lee Mattila. I don't foresee us needing to...

cancel Sunday school because of lack of teachers again. It was a highly unusual set of circumstances. So did you foresee last Sunday then canceling Sunday school or how can you foresee not when teachers call in sick?

Well, I can't. And if I had been able to foresee that, then I would have had to. Sorry. But what's the downside of having new teachers so our kids can have a fully functioning Sunday school? Well, first of all, I think we are fully functioning. Second of all, it's just simply, I mean, we could. There's no reason we couldn't. But at the moment, we have enough teachers, and the teachers that we have are,

SHOWING UP DILIGENTLY EVERY SUNDAY, SO IT'S JUST A MATTER OF BEING ABLE TO CONTINUE TO RUN SUNDAY SCHOOL SMOOTHLY AND EASILY ON BEHALF OF THE KIDS, WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE SUNDAY SCHOOL.

I just wonder if we have enough Sunday school teachers, I'm just wondering why does the ninth grade get the seventh grade curriculum? It's very important that our kids are getting the right curriculum. So that's not due to lack of teachers. That's from smaller class sizes. We've combined seventh, eighth, and ninth grade.

and we rotate through the curriculum. So in theory, when a child goes from seventh to eighth to ninth grade, they do get all three years. It's just not necessarily in seventh grade, in eighth grade, in ninth grade that they get it. I believe some smaller congregations like Brainerd have done things like this for quite some time. So what is a class size that is too small? Because I know that there's for sure at least three ninth graders.

I mean, too small, I don't know. Everyone would have a different opinion as to what that was. But it's more of, you know, comfort for the kids when you're the only student or maybe one other student missing in the class and the teacher's there versus, I mean, we all went through Sunday school. We know being there with our friends was part of what made it enjoyable. And I think classes, it's Sunday school classes, not Sunday school tutoring.

We do it simply so the kids feel more comfortable in the environment. It's not perfect, but we have a smaller congregation than we did five or 10 years ago. And I don't believe it is for lack of teachers at this time, because we haven't had an issue with shortage of teachers other than the one time when, like I said, highly unusual circumstances. And going forward for next year, we will have

many additional teachers, I just think for this year at this point, there's no need to rush into adding Sunday school teachers for a benefit that would be something other than the children, I guess is the best way to say it. Lee Mattila, I guess I'm unsure why you're so reluctant to add new teachers when we're not adding these

I mean, these are faces the kids are familiar with. It doesn't make sense to me that we're not adding teachers for comfort. And if it's not a lack of teachers, like Hannah said, then why are 7th, 8th, and 9th combined? You know, when I grew up in Seattle, there was just a few of us. Sometimes there was just two or three of us in a Sunday school class. That was no big deal. There was no combining of grades.

Well, I guess I'll try to answer it a little differently than I did previously, but whether or not we add more Sunday school teachers this week, or we add them in September when we start our next year, what difference does that make to the kids that are in Sunday school now? I don't think it matters for them. And from my perspective,

There's a certain level of comfort you get with the teachers. You know that they've been telling you if they'll be there or won't be there. Everyone knows what grade they're in. They know the personalities of the kids a little bit better. So I just felt like, for now, we've had a good year. It's been pretty enjoyable, and it's not anything to do with anybody other than it's kind of like, why now instead of September?

It seems kind of irrelevant on the grand scheme of things. Hanna? You're next, Evan. This is Hanna Honga. Would there be any problems with getting substitute teachers? I know last weekend it was canceled due to a lack of teachers. So could we get at least some substitute teachers so that this doesn't happen again?

We could, and that would be fine to get a few more subs. Again, last week it was a highly unusual set of circumstances that is almost certainly not likely to occur again. And even the, ultimately the reason I canceled it was because there were two teachers I hadn't heard back from yet. And they both would have been able to come in and teach and we would have been able to make Sunday school happen.

But because we do have congregation members that drive quite a ways, if one of them hadn't been able to, then there's no way we could have configured classes to make it happen. So I just elected to cancel it at that time. And ultimately, if we give it time, everything will be just fine. Kevin. So as far as...

You know, I think part of it is the teachers that, or not teachers, but the people that don't teach right now, I think a big part of that is they're, they would show right fruits first, and then number of the ones that I've heard speak that don't teach, I would never be comfortable with teaching Sunday school, and a good portion of those are new members that have switched. So that's where I would stand on that, and I think the Sunday school is,

gotten the right approach with that, and these people that are speaking now just seem to be speaking from a fear or anger position. Okay, back to Hannah. I can't remember what I was going to say. Matt, did you have your hand up?

Well, I came from up north myself. Oh, Mat Honga, sorry. Okay, Mat Honga. I came from up north myself, and I think that the congregation I came from was much smaller than what we even have right now. I mean, maybe it was close.

But I came from a class of five. The grade below me had a class of two. And that's the way it remained all the way through my Sunday school years for our two classes. I guess one thing I remember, obviously maybe curriculums have changed, that in ninth grade,

There was a curriculum that we read the whole New Testament. So starting from the beginning, first day of Sunday school, we started from Matthew and then went all the way through Revelations. So I don't know if that's still the practice, but I know to prep for confirmation and stuff, I think it's very important that we would have some of that stuff so we can prepare ourselves. And when they're going through the lessons, they're not behind that confirmation. Lee, did you have your hand up?

Tuula. Tuula Mattila. I make a motion that we give up some names for our substitute teacher for every grade. What's going on Sunday school now. And they can start next Sunday. Evan and then Mike.

Mike Jurmu. I think we have a Sunday school committee. I don't think we have a Sunday school committee. I know we have a Sunday school committee. And I trust those brothers to do the job that they've been asked to do. And rather than micromanage them from this spot, I think Patrick's heard the comments.

AND I TRUST THAT HIM AND HIS COMMITTEE WILL WORK HARD TO TRY TO MAKE SUNDAY SCHOOL HAPPEN AND MAKE IT HAPPEN IN THE BEST WAY THAT THE, THAT MAKE IT HAPPEN IN A WAY THAT'S BEST FOR THE KIDS AND BEST FOR THE TEACHERS. I JUST HAD ONE OTHER COMMENT IS WE SWITCHED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO TO 7TH, 8TH, AND 9TH GRADE ALL TOGETHER. AND WE'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE KIDS BEING TWO KIDS IN A CLASS, BUT

for a teacher to teach two kids is actually kind of difficult, at least it was for me. So a bigger class has been at least better for me as a teacher. But once again, I think we should trust the Sunday School Committee to work with the suggestions that have been made, and I think they'll do a good job. Kenny Raisanen.

Kenny, I second the motion. James. James Ojalehto here. Just a question. I know that ninth graders, it's nice for them to be prepared for confirmation school. So are we, for lack of better words, are we kind of

getting that information for confirmation, or is it perfectly okay? I know that when I was in Sunday school back in the day, Waxhaw obviously taught the class, and we went through all the different things that prepare us for confirmation. So is that an issue now, that do they get only a third of the lessons that are part of the curriculum, or do they get the full load, if you want to use that word?

So the time to have this discussion would have been when we switched to the combined curriculum. And at that point, I think you had a valid point that there would be a class that would potentially miss out on critical curriculum. But at this point, if you're in Sunday school and you go through seventh grade, you'll get a year of curriculum. Eighth grade, you get a year of curriculum. In ninth grade, you get a year of curriculum.

And it will be all three years, seventh, eighth, and ninth grade, although not necessarily in that order. So yeah, maybe you would have gotten the ninth grade curriculum in seventh grade. To my knowledge, nobody's failed any final exams at confirmation. So they're all getting the curriculum, although maybe not necessarily in the order

It was intended when it was written. Lisa. Lisa Simonson. Can you speak a word?

Lisa Simonson. So James pretty much said what my thoughts were, but I would like to see ninth grade taught separately starting this week. I have a daughter who is missing all of that curriculum being we switched over, but I just think it's just real serious that we think about this. Riz Stone.

Go ahead, Risto. Risto Kiernan. So the congregation is asking for more Sunday school teachers. It's the annual meeting. I think it would be a good thing that the committee would also trust the congregation and follow the wishes of the congregation. These are our kids.

I don't have a kid yet in ninth grade, but he'll be there next year. So to miss out on the curriculum just because they don't, you know, there's no final exam at,

confirmation school that's not that doesn't make it okay i i i honestly think that we got enough gifts in the congregation let's utilize them and i would go one step further and say you know what let's put in some full-time sunday school teachers today so next sunday they're teaching

and split up the combined sixth, seventh, or seventh, eighth, and ninth grades. So that's all I had. Evan. Well, a quick response to Risto. So Andrew would have been here last year in seventh grade when we did the ninth grade curriculum. They're not missing out on the curriculum. It's just a rotating curriculum. And the

The decision to combine classes, which was made a few years back, wasn't due to lack of teachers. It was to create more of a class environment for the kids to give them a little more comfort to interact. It seems like a lot of comments are thinking that it was because of a lack of teachers, which it wasn't.

It was because some classes were quite small. And we thought about, at the beginning of this year, revisiting the seventh, eighth, and ninth grade, because the demographics had changed some. But then, at that point, if you revisit it with a rotating curriculum, you do create a situation where some kids would not get the curriculum they were supposed to, as opposed to if we keep rolling through the three years and the three grades.

So by switching it up, then you will deprive the kids of certain curriculum by virtue of, you know, in order to get the three years, you would go through the three years. And speaking bluntly, and I hope I don't offend anyone, but this is kind of a big ado about nothing. It's Sunday school, right? You know, the kids show up. We put them in their classes. We go through the lessons. We do the best we can.

And we cover all the curriculum that we have from pre-K through ninth grade. And yes, I understand that there was some drama, I'll say, with teachers at the beginning of the year. And next year, we'll have a lot more teachers than we have this year. And we'll keep continuing to teach the same curriculum in the same way. Whether we address it now or we address it in August,

you know, on the Grants timeline just seems a little irrelevant that it would disrupt the Sunday school with new teachers now. That's really the only reason, and it wasn't anything. I didn't even actually talk to anyone about it. I just thought, well, that doesn't really make sense, so we'll just wait until next year. It wasn't a decision that anybody made other than me, and I made it simply because of why disrupt Sunday school when Sunday school is going smoothly.

OK, Evan, if you make your comments, and then, Abdullah, you can restate your motion. That's been made and seconded. We probably should deal with that after that.

I mean, there's a number of people saying they're concerned about kids missing out on curriculum. Maybe they could detail what curriculum they're concerned about that they're missing and what curriculum they could have known when they went to confirmation that they didn't know that they would have learned in ninth grade. And people have gone to confirmation since then if they could actually remember anything they learned in confirmation.

other than maybe the rights of communion, maybe. I mean, that part I would remember for sure. So yeah, in that regard, I'd echo Pat's comments. It's really much ado about nothing at this point. If we want to vote on the budget at some time before 9 p.m., that would be great. Kathy.

I just want to say thank you to Patrick and the committee and the teachers. They're doing a great job. I've been in Sunday school for many years, not this year, but they're doing the best they can. And I support the work you're doing.

Evan, then we have to deal with this motion that we have on the floor after this with Tuula that she made a motion that's been seconded, so. I was just gonna quickly say too that we have three months left of Sunday school. It probably doesn't make sense to shake up teachers at this point. Evan, did you have your hand up? Yeah. Okay.

I just want to reiterate it's volunteer org, so there's always opportunities for more people to volunteer more stuff. Someone's got a big, grandiose idea on something that might be an option to look at and present to the board or whatever. Sorry, that was a little bit longer. Keith. Keith Warren, you mean?

I'd just like to echo this thought that I think the Sunday School Committee has done a good job, and it's been a difficult year, as Pat mentioned, or the beginning was difficult. And I really would like to see us trust the committee to do what it feels it needs to do if there's need to establish subs for the rest of the year. The committee can proceed with that. There's a procedure.

in place for doing that and I don't think it's necessarily the best approach to start calling out names at an annual meeting for Sunday school teachers. I would rather entrust that work to a committee that knows the work and is very attuned to what's happening in Sunday school.

I would agree that the Sunday school teachers and everybody involved in Sunday school is doing the best that they can. I don't think they've been doing bad. I'm just thinking that maybe there's a need for more teachers.

there's being comments made by people that don't have kids that attend Sunday school here, they attend a different congregation. I think it would be good that we keep it to people that have a stake in the game or have kids that actually attend Sunday school.

I don't know why it matters to somebody that does not send their kids here. Quickly to Risto's comment, if we added a few additional subs for this year, that might help if there's more absences, but I would be reluctant to change all the teachers just for the sake of adding more teachers at this point. Like I said, we can do that next year and hopefully everyone's happy.

Okay, so at this point, we have a motion on the floor. I don't know if something can be corrected, but Tuula, can you restate your motion? Or are you withdrawing it, or what's the status of that?

My motion was that we name substitute teacher for every Sunday school grade, that if there's some lack, then there's other teacher to teach our kids. As Gary Walette experienced last year, there's like a dead zone surrounding this spot, so I wasn't able to hear that motion.

Pat, were you able to pick that up? Okay, can you restate it? The motion was to add substitute teachers for each grade. And so the motion has been seconded. Is there any further discussion?

Yeah, this is Joan Parks. I was just wondering, do we need to vote on something like that? Isn't it up to, like, Patrick? He's the head. Can he just go ahead and add more if we need him for the remainder of the year? I don't know. I don't know what the proper procedure is, and I don't have anyone in Sunday School, so maybe I shouldn't be talking about it. That was my understanding that the committee would, and I actually, like I said, I'm fine if we have a few more subs. It certainly isn't going to hurt, but...

You know, we've got, I think most of April, there isn't Sunday school for one reason or the other. Maybe the next three or the next four, there isn't Sunday school. And then there's three or four weeks after that. We've got like four or five tops weeks left in Sunday school. Keith?

I would just like clarification on the motion. Are we talking about picking them here or leaving it to the committee? Tuula Mattila, committee can

give those names. It doesn't need to happen here, but I'd like to see those names, just in case. So we've got a motion on the floor for adding Sunday school teachers.

and is that right tuula and you want to see the names is there a specific lee i believe the mo lee mattila i believe the motion is for substitute teachers for the balance of the year okay and how would you like to handle that

Kenny seconded. Roger. The motion is, I believe, for adding substitute teachers for the balance of the year. OK. So we have to have a procedure for doing that. If we're going to add substitute teachers, and Kenny has seconded that motion,

There's been some discussion on whether or not we're going to put those names into play here, if they're going to be named specifically, or if the Sunday School Committee is going to put those names forward for consideration. How are we going to do that? Are we prepared to put names forward right now for substitute Sunday School teachers for the balance of the year? That's the question.

And if so, then somehow we have to come up with that list of names for voting on. I don't know if that's practical for us to do that here. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But anyway, that's where we're at. Someone back here in the corner. Calvin.

Well, this formality thing is a little bit strange to me. I don't quite understand it. Let's just say somebody do come into congregation here, family, a fine family, maybe several, who knows? People move around. And then we've got a gift sitting right there in front of our nose. And because his name isn't formally announced here, he's not qualified, so to speak.

Why not just leave this to the board or the people that decipher these things instead of having too much formality in this stuff is what I'm thinking. It's just my opinion. I'll call the questioner on it.

vote on the motion as it exists i'd like to call a question yeah that means vote on it okay so the question's been the motion has been made and seconded and all those in favor signify signify by raising their hand do we have our vote counters

Yep, keep your hands up and tell the voters. The motion is not clear. The motion is to add substitute Sunday school teachers for the balance of this year.

I know. I don't know what to do about it. It's this thing. OK. Let me try this one. Any opposed? No.

You guys have the tally? 52 to 32. In favor? 52 in favor. And motion carries. So now we have to deal with who gets

of the names, I guess. That's a second part. Is that something we want to deal with here, or is that something the Sunday School Committee should handle? James? Wait for the mic, James.

Comedy came up with those names. We trust Sunday School Committee to name persons to be substitute teachers. We're waiting for James.

Do we have a roving mic out there yet? It's right here. Who's waiting to talk? James. I want him to say it into the mic because the meeting's being recorded. I'm just going to reiterate what, this is James [Ojalehto], to reiterate what Tuula said, that Patrick and the committee can decide. The congregation has just asked to add substitute teachers. That's the way I understood it. And I'm fine with that myself, personally.

Were there any additional questions? Just one comment. Roland Keranen, I trust that it'll be the committee and only the committee that makes these decisions. Are there any additional comments on the Sunday school report?

Keith. In response to what Roland said, I think it's important to remember that there's a process that has been in place, and that process I think should continue. If we are selecting teachers, there are matters that we need to consider.

with regard to sexual misconduct policy, with regard to what we always talk about when we're selecting teachers. And so the committee does that work with the support of the board and the process that's been in place. I don't think that should be changed.

Okay, are there any other comments? Any other comments? If not, one in the back there.

um this is andrea mattila um i was just thinking about keith's feedback on roland's comment so i guess i'm just wondering is it the sunny school committee then ultimately that will make these decisions or is it the board or is it them working together what's the purpose of the

specific sunny school committee if the board makes that decision. I guess I'm just trying to get more clarity on where those decisions actually are made. Charlie. Charlie Hallonen.

The procedure is that all Sunday school teachers, youth committee members, whatever, the Sunday school committee would choose teachers, and then they would go to the board to get them okayed. It's usually just an automatic stamp or whatever, but everything goes that way.

Any other comments? If not, then we can conclude this portion of the report. The motion was successful, so substitute teachers will be added, and the Sunday School Committee will be responsible for making those appointments. We'll move on to the next section, Bible class. Paul Pylvainen.

So our report is pretty brief there. So I'll just open the floor for questions or comments. Kenny Raisanen.

Kenny, as you all know, I've been placing a brief message on the table out in the lobby that is basically a plea for more Bible class leaders. However, before I did that, I made a request to insert my message into the newsletter. I thought that would be, you know, pretty simple. But for some strange reason, it was refused.

So then, at that point, then I started putting my message on the table. And then the absolutely, after that, the most absolutely strangest thing occurred. My messages would disappear. Not one at a time, but the whole stack would vanish. Then after several weeks, Mike Jurmu approached me and gave me a stack of them, and he was the one that was taking them. And I don't know why he was so offended by my message, but

He said, well, if I was to, if I, Kenny, would put my name on them, then he'll leave them alone. He'll leave them there. But now, as you saw, that stack of messages is not there again. Someone continues to remove them. Why? What is offensive about my message? Why was this need not dealt with as soon as the previous Bible class leaders moved away?

Where has the board been in this matter? Why has the board been asking Bible class leaders from other congregations to come here and serve when we have many men available here? Why didn't this board bring this matter to the attention of the congregation and ask for suggestions at the time of need many months ago? Therefore, at this time, I suggest, only a suggestion,

Names for new Bible class leaders of Olli Kujala and Gary Lehtola. Lisa, right behind you.

Lisa Ilitello. I know that our congregation membership was way down in the spring one year. We started to have neighboring congregations come to teach Bible class, but I just want to suggest to the Bible class committee that since our membership numbers are up, we consider bringing in some of our own members to teach Bible class. Roland? Roland?

Yeah, this is one concern I raised with Paul Pylvainen in a private phone conversation and also at one of the board meetings I attended. It seems a little strange to me that in a congregation now of 172 members, we can't come up with at least three names that can conduct a Bible class here.

I went, I belonged to the Detroit congregation for about five years, some 25 years ago, and it seems that we had gifts there that we're able to serve. Risto. Risto [Keranen]. I will second Kenny's motion. Wasn't a motion. No motion. Joan.

Yeah, I, Joan Parks, I think it's time to stop this monkey business of getting Bible class leaders from elsewhere. We have plenty of gifts here. I came from a small congregation in Longview. We weren't calling Seattle for gifts. You know, we got gifts here. We got plenty. And I just listened to Valde Palala's sermon from him. Every child, there is no giftless child of God.

i make a motion we start using our own bible class leaders and let these other guys teach their churches bible class dennis i would hope that our congregation would uh

view Gary Lehtola and Olli Kuila as dear brothers in faith. They have gifts to teach and I'm thankful that Kenny raised those two names and

In future discussions, if somebody wants to share their dislike for these men, they can share their dislike over the next few weeks. Visit with these brothers. If you believe differently, then make yourself known of what you're

conflict maybe. Many people have many gifts. The gift to teach Bible class really should be someone that has the gifts for sharing God's word and communication skills.

I hope that our congregation would focus on doctrine, teaching, and not flesh and blood, not who you are, not point fingers, not divide. And if you are...

If you have the heart of division, perhaps it'd be good to look into yourself and find out truly how you believe and confess how you believe. You should have a loving congregation, not a divided congregation. Paul, did you have some comments?

I did. Yeah, Roland did pass on some names to me, and as the committee, then we shared them with the committee. We passed them on to the board. And of course, the two names that have come up here today, the board is now well aware of. We as a committee, though, had some other names that we also passed on to the board. And so I guess it's not like, I want to say we haven't been doing anything

I don't know, but we, maybe of course could have done more, but to me it didn't, and I expressed this with the committee, nobody, that,

You know, we didn't feel the urgent need to act on this. I saw Kenny's, I saw the slips there first. I'll assure you, Kenny, I didn't touch them. I left them there. I wasn't gonna pass them out to anybody, but I did leave them there.

And then I didn't think much of them, but I just thought, yeah, it was good you put your name to them. We've all put our name to this report and, of course, stand to be corrected if need be. But I would just say that we've passed on those names to the board. We've had a process here in Minneapolis for many years choosing

Bible class teachers. I think those names have come in many ways to our congregation, and generally it's the names that have come up and have been teaching have been widely accepted by all. We've used our ministers when we had more ministers, but we've used others.

And this is our first, I think all of us serving on this committee, it's our first crack at doing this. And something else I was gonna say, actually regarded Sunday school, I should have made it then, but I'll make it now. Maybe go home and ask your kids how they think Sunday school is going.

I know [name omitted], our grandson, he loves it. And I don't think you might be quite surprised at some of their responses. I'll open the floor back up for more comment. Oh, I would suggest...

Next year's meeting or similar meetings for those that come up here, we provide them with an anti-fatigue mat to stand on. I felt kind of sorry for Mike. Kylie or Billy?

Just a suggestion here. Say we have a suggestion box for names to teach Bible class. There's probably a lot of undiscovered talent in this room to teach Bible class that people who may end up teaching it don't even know where they have a gift for teaching Bible class. Why not put a name in a box and just see if they're willing to try it once and if they're comfortable and we can just

have one Wednesday night after another different people teaching Bible class and ones who have a gift for it and a desire to do it. Just a suggestion, because I know, you know, if you had time to, if everyone had many months to prepare, say, you know, you got to teach Bible class in six months, you have a topic to study.

I think we could all be very prepared for at least to give a 20-minute presentation. It's just a suggestion, but I know there's a lot of talent in this room for teaching Bible class, and most of us maybe don't even realize we have it. Kai. Kai Lee. I grew up in Brainerd.

And the way I remember it being handled there is there was like seven or eight families. And every Wednesday, one of the fathers of the families was a Bible class teacher. It was really nice. And I'd like to second the motion that we use our own Bible class teachers. Thank you.

Okay, motion's been made and seconded. Any other discussion? Paul? I had one more thought that I passed on to a few different people that asked me about, did they think with all our new members there were gifts here to do this?

My answer was that it wasn't obvious to me, and it doesn't need to be obvious to me. There's many, many gifts here, but that was my answer. But I did say that to me, with the many, many gifts that have come here to teach Bible class, to me it has felt like summer service is in our congregation.

That's my comment. Zach?

Sarah [Kariniemi], I'm also on the Bible class committee. And yeah, we do have 171 members, but it's sadly we don't have many options to choose from. And that's not being judgmental. In Matthew 7, verse 15, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16, Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?

Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. And I think all of us can consider these verses. And I don't think anyone can disagree with them. Zach, up here on the right.

Just wanted to make a comment. Since we have a motion that's been seconded, maybe we can take a minute to clarify exactly what it is right now, because our last motion, we kind of got lost in the weeds about what are we voting on, what is the motion, and we wasted a lot of time doing that. So I don't know if you got it down, but what I had for the motion was to start using our own Bible class teachers and let those other guys teach their churches so we could maybe tidy it up a bit, but something along those lines, let's

Clarify the motion so we know what we're discussing and what we're going to vote on so there's not a bunch of confusion later. The motion as it exists, from what I understand, is to add Bible class leaders. Joan. And that was seconded by Risto. Made by Joan, seconded by Risto. Or...

Okay, so I'll just, this is Joan Parks. I'll just add to what Sarah said, that I think we all need to look at each other. We don't need to start being judgmental. Can you speak into the mic closer there, Joan? I just add to Sarah's comment that I think it's a danger where we go there and start judging others. I felt that was a very judgmental comment that she made about our congregation of 170 members. Like I repeat it again,

There is no giftless child of God. And I think we have to remember that. And I'll repeat my motion. It was like Zach said. I think we need to start using our gifts within our congregation, Minneapolis congregation. Let the other guys teach theirs. They're plenty busy, I'm sure, with their duties in their congregations. And I like Billy's comment that people can put names in a box and Paul can look at them. Paul and the committee...

can look at these. I'm sure people have good suggestions. Okay, anyone else? Mike. So I have two things. Thank you, Kenny, for bringing up that topic of the notes that were in the back.

Actually, Ken, I think you know why it wasn't put in there and we just said that. It seemed like a personal message. It was something that wasn't exactly applicable to the newsletter.

and then when they were showing up in the back without the name on them i brought them to you to ask you to sign them so that i didn't have to have the pleasure of going in front of the congregation and saying that wasn't a message from the from the board somehow i just didn't want any confusion that way and then about the bible class leaders

It is true that the Bible Class Committee has brought names to the board. And I think maybe, is there six, Paul? Those two that came from Roland and then...

There was three or four others. I don't remember exactly the number. I think there were, I remember there were three from Roland and maybe three from our committee. Okay. And maybe you got some from us. Anyway, the point being not how many there is, but the committee has been doing their work and bringing the message or bringing the names forward to the board. Unfortunately, the board hasn't felt comfortable in discussing those names.

because we've had visitors at our meetings and it didn't seem um well for many of us it didn't seem comfortable or the thing to do to discuss them with you know a wider audience and so we haven't made any progress on asking members to be bible class leaders

Quick comment. I don't know who the other four are, but they have my support. All six of them have my support. They're all believers, and I think that's what matters most, is that we're all believers, and I believe all six of those are capable of teaching Bible class. I just don't see what... Bill [Kariniemi].

I don't know why there's such an extensive vetting process. I don't even know who the other four are. I'm sure they'll do a great job. Kenny.

right on my message, when it was refused to be inserted in the newsletter, the charge was that it was an opinion. So I reviewed it again, and I saw two words that would only raise questions. One word was unusual, and the other word was unhealthy. So I made the argument that actually that's not an opinion, that is a fact of the situation. And then to...

What was that lady's name back there? I think she was an Edwards. Sarah. So this message is just to you, Sarah. From Matthew 7, starting with the first verse. Judge not that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged. And with what measure ye met, it shall be meted to you again. Amen.

And why beholdest thou the mote in thy brother's eye, and considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote of thine eye, and behold the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam in thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote in thy brother's eye. It is quite shocking, you would say,

that you could see no gifts here among the brothers. Hanna. Selenida. So this is Hanna Hanga.

Concerning Bible class teachers, and I agree with what Joan said, that we have a lot of gifts here. There's not one giftless child of God. And we are all part of the body of Christ. And we all pitch in with the gifts that God has given us. And I think that we need to also use those gifts

I'll just read from 1 Corinthians 12 to 27, I believe it is. For as the body is one and hath many members, and all the members of that one body being many are one body, so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

if the foot shall say because i am not of the hand i am not of the body is it therefore not of the body and if the ear shall say because i am not the i am not i am not part of not of the body is it therefore not of the body if the whole body were an eye

Where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members, every one of them, in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body?

but now are they many members yet but one body and the eye cannot say unto the hand i have no need of thee nor again the head to the feet i have no need of you nay much more those members of the body which seem to be more feeble are necessary

And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor. And our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need, but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacketh. That there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another.

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it. Or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and the members in particular. I don't think that it's up to us to decide what is in the hearts of people, but...

Rather, let's use these gifts. And wouldn't it be the best place that if someone was incorrect, that they could be corrected, even like with these Bible class lessons? Anita. Anita.

One thought that, Anita [Kariniemi], one thought that was troubling to me is the idea, and I don't know if it's there or not, but that you couldn't consider the Bible class leader suggestions because you had other people there. What...

I hope these people that you're considering, at least, are notified that you will be considering their name and that they are allowed to be there. I don't think it's appropriate to be discussing anybody without them being there and a part of that discussion. Crystal. Crystal.

This is Risto. Regarding Joan's comment, I have to say, or Joan's comment regarding not to be judgmental, I agree with that wholeheartedly.

We can't see into each other's hearts. I can't see into your heart. Not one of us was given that gift or that power. There was only one, as Scripture says, that was able to, that knew everything and saw everything. And that does not include any one of us, no matter what the number is.

For myself, I don't feel like I've always been such a successful believer. However, I do feel like I have that peace, that peace of God in my heart.

And that's, I'm not saying that, Sarah, you're talking about me in particular. However, it's troubling that we would start passing judgment like that. Scripture says, judge not lest ye be judged. And by what measure you judge, you will also be judged in the same manner. Um...

And as far as Joni's motion, I would ask that we go ahead and vote on that now.

Also, Billy's comment, I really enjoyed that. I agree. Whoever the names were, you know, as long as they're a believer, let's use them. It's okay. I'm okay with that.

We need to stop casting aspersions on people and just saying stuff willy-nilly. It's hurtful and it's very damaging to start saying that, well, you're not good enough or you're not good enough or your condition of heart isn't in the right place because you don't know that. And that needs to stop.

Paul, did you have some comments? I did. So I hope it's duly noted in the minutes for the anti-fatigue mat, but also for some either bottled water or some water up here to drink. We've heard a lot about judgment.

Don't know exactly what this means, but I'll read it. First Peter, fourth chapter. There's probably more I should read before this, but Peter says, for the time has come that judgment must begin at the house of God. And if it first began at us, what shall the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well-doing as unto a faithful creator. There is some commentary on that written by Martin Luther. You can look it up.

And now is not the time probably for that, but I'm sure that we'll have, as a congregation, more discussions. Josh?

I think the Bible Class Committee's recommendation to use Rockford Bible Class teachers is so our congregation, which is division in its current times, can avoid divisive discussions on who would be

who we would be comfortable with teaching, and I guess we've gotten a taste of that today, and there's certainly people in this congregation that are

that have gifts, no doubt. But I think the recommendation that we have here is they're using lessons they've prepared already, and I think it is a good solution for our congregation in the times that we're in right now. And I think normally we wouldn't do this, and it's not a long-term solution, but maybe it helps us get through

these years or months or whatever they are with less contention. So I support the recommendation here. [Russ].

I thought to comment just for background because perhaps many of you are not aware, but for years and years, decades, the board and speakers have met annually in the fall to have what we called our spiritual meeting where we would discuss

the needs of the congregation, the gifts of the congregation, whether it's Bible class leaders, teachers, speakers of the word, and so on. And that process has gone on and continued and been healthy throughout all these years. So what this discussion points to, and Josh's words are right on that,

The situation in the congregation is, as Mike noted in our report to the congregation, is that the division is there.

And under those conditions, when there is strife and division in the congregation, we are not united. And that creates challenges for the work of the congregation going forward. And that is why the board has strived so hard to work on the unity that keeps us united.

in the unity and fellowship of the rest of Christianity here in North America, Sweden, and Finland. So I think this Bible class committee has done a good job. Obviously the names that come forward are good for us to review and when given the opportunity to do so, I believe we could do such as a board, but

having those visitors creates that kind of tension that you aren't free then to discuss the gift that is in question as we have always done keith

Sharing Bible class teachers between congregations is not new. When Rockford was established for some years, Minneapolis teachers went there to teach until Rockford got on its feet and was able to establish its own teachers. I think Minneapolis went through somewhat similar of a phase when many members...

moved and changes came and Bible class teachers left and it was pretty difficult to keep up with all that was happening there for a while. And brothers have already mentioned here, I think the

the key reason why we haven't been able to move forward on this. It's because of the spiritual divide that we're experiencing that in the discussions we've had today, we see very clearly, I can't say it any other way. And in that environment, it's very difficult to select teachers.

Yes, there are those here that would have gifts to teach. But as Josh mentioned, I think it's been very good to have the Rockford teachers come and serve us in the interim.

And there's certainly no thought that this is some permanent arrangement, but the committee has certainly been considering it. But as brothers have mentioned, with visitors at board meetings, it's very difficult to raise some sensitive issues. You start talking about teacher selection and so forth.

And I have to say that I'm kind of concerned about some of the comments here. Maybe they're not thought through. Is selecting a teacher to teach over the congregation, especially in the adult Bible class, it's not some sort of process of...

you know, try someone out and see if it works. Of course that happens. Sometimes people selected for positions aren't able to serve and changes can be made. But selecting someone to teach Bible class, it's a very important matter. And I have to say that a few of the comments bothered me that

didn't feel like the right kind of sobriety in looking at the position here was in place. But I feel personally that I have liked to have the Rockford brothers here.

And there's been some Elk River brothers as well. And would hope that maybe we could get through this Bible class year. We only have a couple of months that are unscheduled at this point, April and May. To get through this year and perhaps by the fall we can have our own teachers.

certainly for selecting our own teachers, but I really don't see this to be such a negative thing that we have dear brothers that are coming here and teaching us the Word of God and the congregation has been served well by it.

I think if God so wills and gives us a way forward here and teachers that can be selected, I think we're all in favor of that and want to see that happen. But again, I would reiterate that the main difficulty here is with this and other things is it's very hard to do congregation work right now.

because of the situation. And I think when we think of today's meeting and what we've discussed, it feels like I don't remember a meeting where we have kind of had to quibble in some way over things in the way we have today.

And I think that's indicative of what we're experiencing in the congregation and indicative of, or the reason why the board hasn't been able to move ahead on some of these matters. Gene?

Lee, we've got a motion on the floor. If you and your fellow vote counters, Dave and, who's the other one? If you guys can get ready, we're gonna have a vote here coming up pretty quick. Gene. I would like someone, maybe Keith or Russell or someone to explain this division or

Whatever you want to call it. What is it that you're praying? Anyone else before we take a vote on this issue? We've got a motion on the floor to add Bible class leaders from the Minneapolis congregation. There were no dates or names that were part of that motion, but just a motion to add.

I was just going to say I disagree with a couple comments that are saying that it would be too difficult to come up with names because the congregation is so divided. I've heard several comments here where people say that there's lots of gifts and they would approve any of those names.

I don't hear quibbling over names of who, you know, that it would be hard to pick, that just go ahead and choose from the names that were suggested is what I've heard. And the other message I've heard is that maybe at the root of all of this is there is a, I don't know what to call it, but

It seems like some people do consider some of the other believers here as less worthy or less of a believer. That's just what I've observed through the discussion. Okay, so I'm going to repeat the motion one more time. It's been to add leaders from the Bible class teachers, leaders from the Minneapolis congregation.

So with that motion being made and seconded, I'll now call for the vote on that. All in favor, raise your hand. And please keep them raised until the vote counters conclude the counting.

You guys give me a sign when you're done. Any opposed? Please keep your hands raised.

Looks like there, how many opposed upstairs? Five opposed upstairs. Opposed. Any in favor upstairs? I'm sorry, no.

Motion fails. That concludes the Bible class portion of this review. The next section is Day Circle.

Thank you. Thank you.

This should be real short. There haven't been any changes with Day Circle. We're continuing as we always have, and we've had very good participation from the staff. Kids seem to enjoy it. Attendance is about what it's been in the past years. So that's about it. Any questions?

Thank you, Anne. Next one was the Home, Family and Diaconal. Julie?

okay i'll try to get through this i'm a bit nervous um the committee members are myself keith waaraniemi and lorraine kumpla and we thank our previous members mark and baby will let for their service the home family committee work is guided by christ's dual commandment of love thou shalt love the lord thy god with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind this is the first and great commandment

And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Matthew 22, verses 37 through 39. The committee helps to proactively identify needs of homes, families, and individuals, and coordinate programs and services to meet those needs.

review of past years there, but our plans for this coming year is to continue home services with four in-home events, February, April, October, and December, and plan for two HFD-related presentations to the congregation, May and November. Suggested topics for discussion will be provided.

and also to take collection at home services to benefit the diaconal funds and we'll continue to arrange elders and homebound visits and encourage members to make additional visits on their own.

And then the home service reps are listed. And we just wanted to say for new members, if you want to join a home services rep, you can contact one of the home services. And if you want to join a home service group, you can contact one of the reps or you can contact one of the committee members. Are there any questions? Thank you, Julie.

Zach? So Bob's out of town, so I'm filling in for the Internet Broadcast Committee report. Not too much new except for I think Marianne moved last year, so Bob's taken over as our fearless leader. Jared, Karen and me moved, so I don't think he's on the committee anymore unless we can find a way to do it remotely. And we updated a batch script, so now the files for 2020 are uploading, so we just changed a

file path, and I can't think of anything else new, so if you have any questions, I could try to answer them. Ross? Somebody had me in the mic, too. Anyway, a question I have sometimes is that when I'm listening online,

that the volume is very, very soft. I got my computer cranked up all the way, and I can hardly hear the sermon. So I don't know if they could get more volume out of it. I'd appreciate it. I brought it up a little bit to somebody before, but I thought I'd bring it up again. Thanks. I think just today I saw a note by the computer that was just that sometimes the volume is soft, so I can tell Bob and we can look into it, see what it might be.

So listening online from Florida once in a while, it seems like this new software service is not up. Do we have a problem with how they provide a service? How does that work? Are you saying it's not always working? I guess I don't know too much about the new software, but I'll make a note of it for Bob.

Anyone else? If not, thanks, Zach. Ann? This is the report on the seniors in southern Minnesota. We have approximately 40 to 50 members

that meets six times a year for activities in area churches. Officers serving in 2019 were Dan Mulder, chairman, Anne Ilocana, secretary, and Jean Wickman, treasurer. Anne's term expired in 2018, but with no one elected to take her turn, she obediently indicated that she would do the duty for another three years. Meetings consist of singing, prayer, and devotion,

a topic or short activity, remembering ill or homebound seniors, refreshments and visiting. Congregation pastors serve interns for their devotion. Funds from the seniors treasury are used for the different churches hosting meetings, remembrance of making a donation to the church in memory of a deceased senior were applicable.

and our Christmas meal decision was unanimously approved by the committee to rotate the Christmas meal and meeting at different locations. Churches every year, the 2019 meeting and Christmas meal was held at the Rockford church plans for the current year. The planning committee of the Southern Minnesota seniors group was held on December 27th, 2019. Jean Wickman's turn as treasurer was up in December.

The committee approved of Linda Greco from Cokato to take Jean's position as treasurer. For 2020, a similar type program with varying activities will continue. The activities are open and all seniors are invited and welcome to join in. The calendar with dates and locations of meetings is posted on the bulletin board downstairs. Any comment, questions?

Tom? You do a great job. Thank you. I don't know about that. And I don't know, but should we discuss the seniors in Sunday school? Thank you. Thank you, Ann. Service directors? Eugene, are you doing it?

I WASN'T SURE IF I WAS COVERING THIS OR AARON, BUT I GUESS I'LL GIVE THE REPORT. I WAS SERVICE DIRECTOR HEAD FOR MOST OF LAST YEAR, SO MAYBE IT'S ONLY FAIR. WE MADE A CHANGE AT THE FAIRLY LATE IN THE YEAR. AARON IS NOW CHAIRING THAT COMMITTEE. FOR THE MOST PART, WE HAVEN'T MADE CHANGES TO HOW THE COMMITTEE SERVES THE CONGREGATION.

We're very open to any change or requests that members might have to make the congregation activities go as smoothly as possible. That's always our goal. I want to commend the members of the service directors and ushers. It's very important that they pay attention to their schedule and be here when their turn comes up, and we very rarely have had an issue with that.

Any suggestions or comments for this committee? One in the back there. Lee? This is Lee Fredrickson. I forgot to introduce myself last time. I really like it when the service directors do put on a shirt and tie. I think it just looks kind of professional.

And I don't know, I just, maybe I'm old-fashioned that way. I just think it looks much nicer and I like seeing that. The other thing that I wanted to comment on is that during services, like last Sunday when there was communion, in the side room over here, there's a bunch of kids running around, you know, just hollering and screaming and, you know, well, you got communion service going on here.

So I was asking somebody, well, where's the usher? And then somebody else says, why don't you just go in there and tell them to be quiet? So that's what I did. But at the same token, we should probably pay attention to that. Maybe everybody and or the usher should look in on that. Thank you. That's a good suggestion. But I would also remind the parents to keep an eye on their kids. If you don't have kids in the bench and you hear a lot of noise somewhere else in the building, it's possibly an indication they might be your kids.

They all carry me home. Lee, I also chase those kids back to their parents. I just have one more comment with the ushers. It's always difficult to keep the crew of ushers staffed. It's kind of a challenging, unique position because you're expected to be the last one here to lock the building up. So it's always worked pretty ideally for singles that don't have to get their families home.

We're kind of in a spot now where we could use two more ushers, so if we have any volunteers, don't be afraid to let Aaron know you're available. Comment over here, Zach. I was thinking if we need more ushers, maybe we'll start taking a look at who's the last one lingering, talking, we'll start recruiting. So if you don't want to be an usher, maybe clear out a little earlier. Keith.

Keith Waaraniemi. I just want to echo what has been said. I think our service directors do a nice job and I appreciate it. And it's a very important part of our work. And as a servant of the word, I really appreciate the support that they provide to make things happen. And would join also with what Lee said there. I think it is, you know,

I think our brothers usually are appropriately dressed, but as much as possible, I think that is a nice element. And then to encourage, too, in giving announcements to really speak into the mic and try to communicate things as clearly as possible.

a benefit for the congregation and we have some people that are hearing impaired also so it's really important that they are able to hear you know clearly enunciated announcements but i i want to above all else compliment the brothers on their service jenny weichman

I think this is the usher's job, but I'm not sure, but there are designated handicapped parking spots in the parking lot. Often these spots are taken by cars not displaying a handicap sign, and it would be nice if these spots were left open for people that need them.

Any other comments? Did you have anything else, Eugene? I guess the solution to that problem is you could just call the cops and they could get a $200 ticket. Stop that problem right away. Maybe I could take this opportunity to speak to the parking lot. Us on the board have, in a small way, talked about the needs of the parking lot. Striping seems to be getting quite weak. So we'll be revisiting that here shortly, possibly getting the handicap.

INDICATIONS UP TO CODE, IF THEY'RE NOT CURRENTLY TO CODE. SO MAYBE THERE WILL BE IMPROVEMENTS SHORTLY ON THAT. BILL CARRINGTON HERE AGAIN. I HEARD A SUGGESTION WALKING IN, MAYBE PUTTING SOME PARKING SPOTS EVEN CLOSE, RIGHT ALONG THE CHURCH FOR THE HANDICAP-IMPAIRED, SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO WALK AS FAR. JUST A SUGGESTION I OVERHEARD SOMEONE SAYING. I THOUGHT THAT WAS A REALLY GOOD IDEA. MIKE?

This topic obviously isn't really with service directors, but, Gene, I appreciate you bringing it up, and we need to address it. Until we can get the parking lot situated and get the striping done and the signs up as they're supposed to be, you know, everybody please be aware of this, that we do have people that need those handicapped spots, and there's, I think,

somebody help me with this but i think there's four of them right at the end of this first row here and then there's another two against the grass and so we should have at least six of them available and so use your good judgment and save those for the people that need them as much as possible anything else thank you eugene fundraising joan

If we can, if the next committee reporter or on deck person can come sit up here, that would be awesome.

Okay, I guess we don't have anything special other than the bake sales, crafts, but I'm just wondering, if we're such a divided congregation and we have so many issues,

And I know I'm one of those that Keith is talking about. Why am I on fundraising? Why don't we put other people for fundraising? I just, I feel really terrible with this judgment that was just made. It's just, it's, I don't know. It's really sad that we can't continue discussing things and come to one level ground on things. And I don't know. Better luck in the next year. Maybe we'll do better. Does Marilyn have anything? She's the other person on this fundraising committee.

Pardon me? Yeah. Well, that's something I was wondering. Like, when we were doing craft evenings, a handful of people showed up. You know, thank goodness for these Marawaras and Abbeys that came to open the church and provide us with good company and entertainment. I thank them. We've got a comment in the back there. Lee? Okay. I've got a question. How did the...

fundraiser for Wolf Lake Church turnout? We got $700. I know Eugene told me that they would match to make it $2,000. Did you guys ever come up with that at the board meeting? I haven't gone to any board meetings to find out lately if you've done that. If that contribution has been matched. Eugene? Eugene?

I think Josh should speak to that. Are you prepared, Josh? Yeah, I think we discussed that. I don't know if we've ever, we certainly haven't made the payment. I think, I'm not sure if we ever followed up and got the final numbers, so we'll put it on the agenda for next Tuesday.

I think we discussed that doing a matching contribution, if I remember correctly. But I will have to follow up. We have not yet. All right. Any other comments? Thank you, Joan. Angela?

So mine is pretty brief. Just we'll continue to add new publications as they become available. And, you know, just thanks to the bookstore members that have for their work over the past year. And if anything is not in stock or if you have any questions, feel free to ask myself or any of the workers there and just a warm welcome to visit the bookstore.

Any questions? Thank you, Angela. Drew?

Hi, I'm head of the building committee. A review of this past year, the elevator had a semi-annual inspection performed in June, and then the front entryway concrete slab was replaced, and there are no new current projects in the plan for this year. Any questions? Good job, Joe. Evan?

Yeah, so someone was mentioning that they thought the spring cleaning was early, and 9 a.m. is early. I mean, that's what they weren't talking about. Usually it would have been like 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., and last year it was 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. because of people not necessarily coming at 8 so much, except this year they did. And so we did have it earlier. We had it one week earlier this year.

Usually it's the Saturday after, and then turnout was pretty poor. So we had it yesterday, and I told everybody everything got done, but I must have been too excited. I forgot about these windows here. So one guy I know that did them before, I was trying to convince him to do them again. So I'm looking for volunteers if anybody wants to raise their hand real quick.

And maybe, Blake, okay. We'll have to talk about that, Blake. I know everybody's hands are tired, so hopefully you won't be raising them much after this, you know, and we can maybe approve a budget before midnight. So then, people noticed a huge pile of paper towel downstairs in the cleaning room. Maybe wonder what that is. So I got that at less than half price.

And so then I, you know, go big or go home in that case, you know. I bought, like, tried to buy, like, two years' supply worth because didn't know when I'd see that deal come along again. And just this last week, I did pick up some used toilet paper, so... It's, uh...

I've held off on saying that for years, but I couldn't help this year. So what it is, it's actually the package was slightly damaged, so instead of calling it new, they call it used. So it's basically scratching dead. So then also, yeah, just looking for some volunteers for people that want to be my assistant. You know, as you can tell how nice I'm talking right here, I'm really approachable, so...

And then we could have some backups for the cleaning heads because we might have some attrition here sometime in the next year or two. I asked three-ish of some of the new members and they're all flat out refusing or making certain demands before they would take the role. So I was kind of discouraged by that.

Otherwise, this last year turned out good. One of the ones that refused and made demands showed up for spring cleaning, so that was encouraging. Any questions? Thank you, Evan. Dennis? So this last year went well.

and don't have any plans for changing anything for the upcoming summer and next winter. Anyone with any thoughts? Loli.

Okay, I'm not sure if it's grounds or building, but just a question if parking lot has been kind of accessed, if it needs to be resealed or so. Yeah, I think that's Drew's department. Thanks. Any other questions? Food service.

I was asked to give a food service report since I'm a board contact for them. So, thank you for all for your assistance and support. In the past year, everything seems to be working well. And thanks to the ladies who are willing to bring food for these occasions. Also, thank you for Perl for volunteering to be assistant

food purchaser and thank you for Paul and Florence for their help. We want to remind to find a replacement and notify your committee head if you are unable to serve. In the coming year, Elk River will clean the kitchen twice a year and we continue to plan meals and coffee lunch as needed. Any questions?

Any questions? Thank you all. Music, Kathy. Music is a joyful part of the congregation. And thanks to the song leaders and organists who have fulfilled their jobs diligently and faithfully,

and we'll probably be adding one or two song leaders in the next couple months. Jared Kiernan and me left for a few months. And we didn't have as many music events in the past year. We had only the one All Saints Day evening program that Lisa Kiernan had the choir come here and sing for us, and that was a beautiful, joyful, uplifting event. I don't have anything new. Any questions?

Thank you, Kathy. Patrick, collectors? So for the collections report, we've essentially just continued to conduct business as we always have. As a reminder, donations and dues payments can be made online at the MLC website. And for the upcoming year, we'll continue to

collect as we have previous years. Anybody have any questions? Thank you, Patrick. Administration? I don't have anything else to add to the report. Any questions? Earl.

Oh, you have to wait for the mic.

where is the correct place to bring up just the time of the annual meeting? I think actually at this time of the year, it's kind of like right when people are usually skedaddling out of here because we're buried in snow. It's spring break, it's college break. Would it not be better to have it maybe in January or February even? I don't know where the correct place to bring this up, yes.

That's not for me to decide. Any other comments? Thank you, Phil. Financial? Yes, we do. We need a motion to approve the reports. Thank you. Charlie, is there a second?

Tim, all in favor? I have a question. Go. Just clarification here now, are we approving solely item number six here? No, we're approving all of them, all of the reports. That's what I mean, item number six, A through.

Does that include the report from the Board of Trustees or not? Well, it's committee reports. So six, item number six in total. Okay, sounds good. Kenny, did you have something? Okay, so, is there another? Okay, okay.

So all in favor of the motion? It appears unanimous, but any opposed? Motion carries. Financial report.

All right. I'll start by saying that we had a treasurer transition at the beginning of 2020. Matt Jacobson has been the treasurer through the end of last year, and his family switched to Monticello.

So I've been the accountant before that, and I will be training Dean Karame on that. So we have two people involved in that piece, and Gail Keiko will remain as the auditor. So we ended 2019 in a healthy financial position.

The full year earnings were $53,000, which is much higher than we budgeted. We sold one of our investments that the church has held for a number of years with a $9,000 gain, and then we also had $47,000 that was left to us by a member who had passed away in the past couple years, so...

If you take those two items out, we'd have finished the year with about a $3,000 loss, so kind of flat, which is okay. So total cash position increased $53,000 in the year to $242,000 ending, which is also good. We want to maintain a six-month contingency in our bank account to cover operating expenses and our cash balance

is much larger than six months, so we're good there. It continues to be the board's desire to manage church finances diligently while listening to suggestions from congregation members. Thank you to all who have supported the church financially and by volunteering time. Above all, we give thanks to God for the blessings in the past year. May he continue to grant the increase and give hearts to support his work.

So you'll see the balance sheet on page 11. And then on page 12 and 13, there's a summary income statement. Not a lot of interesting stuff to point out there. Dues and fundraising were a little lower than estimated. And then expenses were kind of right in line with what we budgeted. So I don't think anything specific.

I guess one of the questions that's come up in a number of years is the bookstore, which always shows a loss, and I think it's probably just where dollars are getting allocated. If we don't know exactly where it's coming from, it might go into collections or something like that, but we're selling books for what we pay for them, and it's not losing money. Meals, maybe sometimes there's a meal where we don't,

you know, have a suggested donation, but there's always the freedom to do that. I'll point out here that we've, the Minneapolis congregation is using the, it's called Tithely, T-I-T-H-E-L-Y, an app for your smartphone. You can pay collection on there, you can pay for meals on there, as well as pay your dues on that app, so feel free to start using that. If you don't have cash or checks, you have a way to pay now, and bookstore as well, actually, so...

And that would be good if we got more activity there. Any questions on 2019 financials? Kenny. So let's see here. Where do you have travel expenses?

We do not have travel expenses. Ministers who come from our congregations, that goes into the minister's salary. So let's see, what do we have here? You have salaries and office support, but it's not broken out separately. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, I see we have guests here from Florida. I was just wondering if MLLC has paid any of their expenses to either both or one to travel back here from their home in Florida? Mike?

We paid Russ's travel when we asked him to come. And so for this meeting, we paid Russ's travel expense and for the meeting with the LLC board, we paid Russ's travel expense. Rowan?

I live an hour from here, and I haven't submitted travel expenses to come here. I choose to live where I choose to live, and the same is in Russ's case. If you choose to live outside of the immediate area, I think you should be responsible for your own travel expenses. It seems like we run close on the budget every year. Maybe there's some items we can consider cutting. Kenny?

I'll just say that it was the board who asked Russ to go and it wasn't his asking for reimbursement on that. So that would be the board's responsibility for that decision. Yeah, Kenny again.

So I find it incredible that we'd asked him to come from his home in Florida. It's actually kind of unusual that he'd keep a membership here. We, of course, know lots of people that head south for the winter.

their residence is here, but they go either to Florida or Phoenix area, or maybe other areas, but I don't know any of them that keep a membership in Florida also, keep it active there. That's odd and unusual. And then one other question,

I would say the board should not pay travel expenses for the folks that live in Florida to come here. If they want to come here, that's fine and wonderful, welcome. But we should not in any way feel obliged to pay their travel expenses. And then also, when the LLC was called in here by

I don't know if it was the board or maybe just Mike and Keith. I'm not sure. Did we pay all their travel expenses also? When the board asked the LLC to come, we did not pay anything for that. [Russ]?

so just for clarification on membership issues the Florida congregation is not a sister congregation it's an affiliated congregation because everybody there has memberships in some other congregation so we pay a nominal membership there just to put our names on the roster but it's

an affiliated congregation, not a sister congregation, because of those membership questions for both Americans, Canadians, Finns, and the Swedes. Any other questions? Mike, are you going to read the auditor's report? Thank you, Josh. Mike?

Nope, we got a dirty auditor's report. So this is something new and different for us this year. And it's an auditor's report. And this is a letter that came to me and to the board. It says, I have done an audit of the MLLC balance sheet cash position as of 12-31-2019.

as shown in the Annual Meeting Agenda Financial Report, and it is an accurate representation of the balances shown on the external bank account statements dated the same. The only reconciling item between the balance sheet and the actual bank balance is $11,230.16, which represents dues paid by MLLC members in December 2019 and taken as income

cash on the balance sheet as of 1231 but not deposited at wells fargo bank until january 2020 i verified that those dues did get deposited on january 2nd and 3rd from the january 2020 bank statement i have also reviewed each month's bank statements and support for random transactions throughout the year

There was a letter, attached to this letter is my supporting work paper, but I'm not gonna show you that work paper. The cash per Wells Fargo 12-31-2019 was $230,699.16. And then the deposits in transit, that was that 11,000 we were talking about. And so the important part of this letter I think is this, that there was unreconciled other items

And it was $42.80 over that the auditor couldn't figure out where it was from. And so I think our treasurers did a really, really good job. Our collectors did a good job of signing those papers. Everything was done, it seems, really well. So the balance sheet cash was 241,972.12.

And then Gail Keiko is the auditor. Thank you, Gail, very much. Any questions? Josh isn't done yet. Thank you, Mike.

Okay, I would like a breakdown of what's, oh, Jan Fredrickson. I would like a breakdown under ordinary expenses, what's included in salaries and office and LLC support? LLC support is the biggest one by a long shot. Yep, LLC support is all dues paid to the LLC for Minneapolis congregation members, which is in the 2020 budget section, it breaks out the amount we pay per member

It's $54 per member per month, which includes general LLC support as well as for the Silver Springs property and the Stony Lake camp. In terms of the salaries and office, I can get you a more detailed breakdown of that, but it's, of the $14,000, $12,000 is minister pay.

And then there's another $1,600 of miscellaneous expenses. I don't have further detail in front of me. I'll point out that our salaries expense is $36,000 lower this year than the year before because of our elimination of full-time pastor salaries. So we are seeing a significant reduction there. I can get you more detail later if you want.

Any other questions? Dennis. So I think it was last year that our church chose to

not have a salaried full-time and salaried part-time minister i'm just wondering if we of the 12 000 that's expensed as salary in the ministry what uh who is the recipient of the 12 000 of the

So that's Minneapolis ministers who speak here get $80 and then as well as any visiting minister gets $80 per day for speaking at the congregation. Okay, thanks. So that's where that is. Thanks. Any other questions for Josh? Okay, with that then we will entertain motion to approve. Charlie?

seconded by tim all in favor any opposed motion carries we're gonna move on to item number eight 2020 budget so uh as we just mentioned some of our contributions that we pay as dues to the congregation go to the llc totaling 54 per member per month stony lake camp mission work general llc support

and so on. Quick reminder on our dues, they are unchanged this year, $224 per married couple per month, $112 for a working single, and then $92 a month for a retired single. For every man, every man according as he purposeth in his heart, let him so give, not grudgingly or of necessity, for God love the cheerful giver.

Our minimum annual dues to be a voting member at the annual meeting are $12 per member per year, which is unchanged. So as always, there's the freedom to pay as you are able. As long as you hit the $12 per year, you can be a voting member for Minneapolis Congregation. A couple quick things on the budget. Again, the minister paid $80 a day.

We are not currently, our admin is volunteering right now. We've historically paid them a small salary. So that is currently not being paid, but it would be allowed if the person, the physician took the salary. We are planning for 171 dues paying members in 2020 versus 155 or 153 last year. And then in terms of a budget, I raised dues expected based on higher membership and then

our LLC payments will increase along with that. And everything else that I just very small increase just for assuming some inflation, but nothing significant there. And then we are actually, we talked about the building and the parking lot and we did budget for a resealing or recoding of the parking lot and restriping of $16,000. So we kind of budgeted a breakeven budget and $16,000 for the

before the parking lot would come out of our cash reserve. So that is the 2020 budget. Any questions? One in the back, Mike. I just wanted to...

to be kind of clear about this parking lot thing is we just picked a number. We don't really know what that would be. And so there's a lot of work that has to get done on that yet. The last time we did the parking lot, it was 50,000. We don't think it's gonna be that much this time because a lot of that work was done, but. Phil got a quote.

What's that? Phil had it quoted for $16,000, so you might not ever got the manual. Oh, I never got that. I never got that. Yeah, sorry. Good. Perfect. Paul. Paul. Ready to go, Paul?

Some number of years ago when our dear brother Larry Anderson was on the board, he got some maintenance people look at our parking lot and that our hillside is the problem. Every bit of water that comes down the hillside rolls across our parking lot and I believe that person at that time told Larry that every 10, 12 years you can expect to put a lot of money in that parking lot.

Zach?

This doesn't really fit in with the financial stuff, but if I wait until the board member stuff, I'll never get it in. I was just thinking, we've been sitting here for three hours since lunch, so what if, what would people think if we took a 15 minute break after the financial stuff to get up and stretch, enjoy the weather, then come back for the rest of the meeting? Just a thought. Any other questions?

Zach, I got a question. I mean, Josh, sorry. $12 a year for membership, is that, when do we look at that? Is that a realistic number? Well, I mean, it's just a, it's essentially a, what's the word? Nominal, just to, so anybody who wants to be a member can be a member financially. So it's not really the recommended amount.

It's just so there's no financial hurdle to become a member. It's really old, though, so I don't know. How long has it been that way? Forever. It probably wasn't such a small amount when it was instituted. Mike? We've had this discussion on the board, and correct me, brothers, if I'm wrong or not, but I think that's part of our bylaws, and so it's not something that's simple to change. We actually have to change the bylaws to change that, but

Our $12 a year to be a member is extremely low compared to most of the other southern Minnesota congregations. Olli?

Yeah, thank you for asking that question. It comes up pretty much every year. Okay, it's not in our bylaws, but it's an annual meeting decision, as far as I understand.

But $12, it's just to be a member, voting member. When I was a treasurer, I didn't see, I don't recall seeing anyone who paid only $12. So it's just a membership thing, and I have never seen that being an issue, so I'm fine living how it is.

Any other questions? If not, I'll look for a motion to approve. All. Is there a second? Tim? All in favor? Any opposed? Motion carries. What's the consensus? People want to take a break or keep rolling?

Okay, selection of board members. Is there anyone introducing this topic? It looks like not, so I think I'll do my best to talk about it then. As you know, we have the ballots.

They are what they are. I believe you can vote for three of those, and so why don't we all take a little time now to do that, and we'll get our ballot counters lined up in the meantime, Drew and Lee and Dave, and they'll be responsible for collecting those and tallying those, and then at some point, I guess they'll report back on the results of those. So, Eugene?

We got a mic, Billy? Eugene.

This might be a good time. Roger, I think you might want to read the qualifications of deacons. That's the appendix to the agenda. And if anybody has any discussion about these nominees, this would be the time. Yep. Okay. Thank you. I'll read that. The appendix on the back of the packet.

It speaks to board member selection, and I'm just going to read it. Trustees must be members of the congregation according to Articles 3 and 5 of the Constitution and Articles of Section 1 of the Bylaws. Be in the love of the congregation, having a good testimony of God's children, and be zealous in the furtherance of spiritual and temporal matters of the congregation. The members of said church believe the kingdom of God is one and indivisible.

They also believe that there is only one saving faith, one baptism, and one holy Christian church, or communion of saints, wherein God dwells through his Holy Spirit, and wherein he causes repentance and forgiveness of sins to be preached for the salvation of souls. They hold that the preaching of repentance and the forgiveness of sins is the first and most important function of the said church.

Only such people shall be known as members of said church who from childhood have confessed and remained in living faith or in repentance and the forgiveness of sins have experienced new birth through living faith upon Christ Jesus according to the Bible.

In addition to what is required in the Constitution, Article 5, a voting member must be at least 18 years of age and shall have paid the required dues as specified at the annual meeting. New voting members shall be accepted by the Board of Trustees at the Board of Trustees meeting following the payment of dues. Dues must be paid prior to the end of the fiscal year.

Is there any discussion? Does anyone have a comment?

If not, are people comfortable with voting now and turning in those ballots? Evan? Do we have a mic?

Yeah, I'm just a little uncomfortable with the three people that they have on what looks like a slate. Bob Keranen, Mat Honga, and Dave Parks. Someone made comments of like, you know, speaking, I agreed with what the board had said as far as meeting with the LLC and people not teaching. One of them told me I shouldn't have said that at the meeting. I only should have read from the creed.

And two of them refused to take on a cleaning committee role. Eventually, one of their wives said they might be open to it, but they thought somebody younger. And then the other one was making demands that certain things be met before they would help out, that the board would be with

changes with in regards to the LLC being here and who teaches Sunday school. And then one of the other person was upset with about where my kids go to school and then Sunday school and then telling me, well, you can't vote in two places. And I was like, I wasn't worried about that because I can't quite drive back to be in Monticello the same time I'm here, but

So, I mean, just the comments have been kind of harsh or rude. I was in the back speaking with Finn, and one of them kept turning around and telling me to be quiet. I mean, I was looking around. There's people chanting all the time. I mean, I wasn't, like, using a hallway voice or what have you.

I mean, I definitely wasn't rolling the guy's R in the name, so I was just trying to get the English pronunciation. So, yeah, these three people I don't think would be in the love of the congregation, and it would not be good for Bob Keranen, Dave Parks, or Mat Honga to serve as board members. I think that would be a sad situation. So, and then, yeah, thanks to everybody that showed up for spring cleaning yesterday also.

Any other comments? Hearing none, has everyone had a chance to vote? Hopefully you were able to sign in and get your ballot. If not, there might still be an opportunity to do that. So I guess we'll wait to hear the results of that tally. And in the meantime, we'll move on.

The next item, which is item number 10, LLC delegate selection.

I'm just, the appendix that I read, I guess, would pretty well pertain to this as well, but since there's not anyone presenting this, I'll read what we have here. Each year, MLLC selects delegates to represent the congregation at the LLC annual meeting.

It is important that persons considered for selection as delegates are members who have a good testimony in the congregation and to whom the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. There are also members who hold the work of God's kingdom as precious and desire to further that work.

In order to fulfill delegate responsibilities, it is very beneficial if the selected delegates include those individuals familiar with the work of the kingdom and the administration of the affairs of the congregation. Such familiarity with the work is often gained through service on the board or committees and through participation in local and area-wide and congregational meetings.

So each year at the annual meeting, we select two delegates for a three-year term to maintain a pool of six eligible delegates. From this pool, three delegates are sent to represent us at the LLC annual meeting. Delegates must be eligible voting members of the church. The current delegates and the year their term expires are listed below.

So we have an open spot due to the resignation of Jim Wickman, and Mike Jurmu and Barb Lever's term expires today. So we have to name three people to either renew or replace them, and then the responsibilities of these delegates is to...

bring the congregation input to the LLC annual meeting where they will consider approve or disapprove of the LLC work for the past year and provide direction to the LLC for their work for the coming year. The delegates will handle the election of the LLC board of directors.

And then the responsibilities of the delegates will be to report to our congregation about those discussions and decisions of the meeting. And when necessary, delegates may be called upon to act on LLC items of business which arise after an LLC annual meeting and require a decision prior to the next annual meeting.

So that is only at the summer services. They don't get called to the Phoenix meeting, which I didn't know about, but that's the case. So that's it.

this item on the floor now. And I guess we didn't have ballots pre-printed for this because we didn't have nominations placed two weeks in advance like we did for the board members meeting. I think in the future meetings,

That may be part of the case, if I understand correctly. But in this case, we have to entertain nominations of individuals from the floor. So with that in mind, it looks like I've got some people queuing up here to speak. And the person on the list is Kenny. I nominate Olli Kuehler.

OK, Olli has been named and seconded by Jeff. I nominate James Ojalehto. Who's that? OK. Paul.

I would re-nominate Mike Jurmu. Mike Jurmu? Right. And I just have a question also. With our current membership, do we still send three delegates? Or was there some number of delegates you send based on your congregation size?

Three delegates we sent. Minneapolis sends three delegates. So you nominated Mike Jurmu. There was a show of hands here. Next. OK. Back on the left. Rolling. OK. I'll get you next, Evan. Sorry. I nominate Gary Lehtola. OK. Evan.

So I'll speak for Zach here. You don't need a second nomination unless it makes you feel good. So my name's Evan Siljander, and I'll nominate Barb Lever and Tim [Lahti]. And these other people that are getting nominated, I think would, I don't know, it'd be some sort of plague on the LLC annual meeting. It's kind of sad how this meeting's going.

Okay, Kenny, you're not the chair, and you don't make the rules, so at this point, I'd ask Kenny, you're out of line. You've been out of line since you joined this congregation. Okay. So then Roland is his buddy, and Roland's asking me to be quiet, so Mr. Chairman, if you could take control here.

We're in discussion phase, Evan, so let's keep discussing. We've got some nominations. We've got some that have been seconded, some that haven't, and there's been plenty of hands still going up, so I can't just cut conversation off right in the heat of the battle. So let's keep talking if we can. So can you repeat what I had put in for nominations? You nominated Barb Lever and Mutti Willett. Oh, you mean Tim Willett?

Tim Lutty. Oh, Tim Lutty. Sorry, now I'm getting confused. Okay. Yeah, I don't need the mic. Her and I both heard it wrong. We heard Lutty. I'm just waiting for the guy to come grab the mic, that's all. So that's why I'm still holding it. So back here, we had Roland. And anybody else, I had a flurry of hands there, so I missed people.

Roger, I don't think they need seconds. If they're nominated, they're nominated. Okay. They get on the ballot. Okay. Just for clarification, I don't know if you can tell, but we need to select three delegates. Yep. There's two terms expiring, and then there's one open one.

Okay, so we have six nominations on the floor now for three open positions. We have Roland, I think it may be, or are you passing? We got Jean. I make a motion that nomination cease. Nominate who?

I make a motion that nomination cease. Okay. Motion's been made to close. Okay. Motion's been made and seconded. Any further discussion? In the back, Gary.

I suggest that we put the names on a sheet like we did with the board members and do a closed ballot. OK. I don't know if that needs to be a motion. But if it does, then it's a motion.

No, I think it pertains to our rules, which is when we vote on personal issues, we do put them to a secret ballot. So we should be prepared to do that. I think maybe we have the paper ready to go. We vote for three.

And there's been six, but we have to make a motion to, I mean, we have a motion to close and a second to close, but we haven't voted to close. After we vote to close, then we vote on the nominees. So, all in favor of closing the nominations? Any opposed? Okay, motion carries. So now we will vote on these.

Yep, put them up. Are we going to be on the way here?

Not really, not this one, but the other one helped, but it squeaked.

Okay, while we are waiting for the results of those vote tallies, why don't we move on to number 11, which is the review and approval of the service schedule. Does anyone have any questions about any of those?

proposed schedules. If everything looks good, then I'll ask for Mike to give us the proposed Southern Minnesota area-wide services.

there were hands oh sorry didn't didn't see who's got their hand up zach uh for on the service schedule i was kind of thinking for the christmas bake sale a lot of times it's hard to get people to sign up for

like a Thursday and Friday morning bake sale shift. So I was wondering, would it be easier for people to come Wednesday night to make cookies if we canceled Wednesday night church the week before the Christmas bake sale? Or do you think it's easier to come Thursday and Friday during the morning and day? For a lot of people who work, it's a little bit tough to make it during the day. And stuff like cookies I think are fine if they get made a day ahead of time.

And then we can still make some of the stuff like rolls Friday night so they're fresh. So I was kind of curious what people thought of that idea. Becky? Real quick. Are we able to put that screen back up there? There were some people that missed it. Eugene was asking, and also I kind of missed it also.

Roger, this is Lorraine . Just a comment on the additional information paragraph of the service schedule.

It shows song services on the first Wednesday of months, and May is listed in there, but actually May, in the line above, is listed as a home and family congregation presentation. So May, we would not have song services if we have that presentation. And then under where it says congregation halves down below, we've been referring to that nowadays as congregation halves.

a congregation visiting day, and this year we did not have it on February 2nd, but we have two scheduled, March and November. Thank you. Okay.

In response to Zach's comment, if the rest of the congregation agrees, I think that's a reasonable suggestion to do bake sale work on that Wednesday night before the bake sale. It is challenging for people to take time off work to come Thursday during the day and Friday during the day. And a lot of the items do freeze well or last a couple days until the bake sale.

This is . I'm just wondering if people would be in favor of canceling Sunday school on Mother's Day. I know that it's super rushed trying to get out the door, and it's the one and only day that moms get to enjoy a nice breakfast that's

put on by hubby and kids, and it's kind of hard to do that when there's Sunday school to get ready for. I don't know, just my thought. Evan.

So it's a little sad when the dumpster overflows down there. We got a little bit smaller one. So I don't know who's in charge of the bake sales, but if they could get in contact with me and we can get an extra pickup scheduled for that. So I didn't see that on there. I don't know, is that Joan Parks? All right, so I'll talk to you after maybe.

I have a thought of that what Hanna said about Sunday school and Mother's Day. Maybe Sunday school kids can sing a song for moms instead of Sunday school, like before church. Keep it easy. Yeah, but cancel Sunday school.

Kelton? Growing up in Cokato, I believe on Mother's Day, I don't think they had Sunday school, and they also roasted a pig. I could be wrong, but they had some sort of barbecue, and the whole congregation would get together. So that could be a thought, too, some sort of fundraiser on Mother's Day. Yeah.

Any other comments? Aaron?

I just wanted a quick comment on Zach's comment. I, for one, I'm a working man, and so Thursdays and Friday mornings are kind of out of the picture for me to be able to help out the bake sale. I really enjoyed helping out the bake sale, and if, you know, for strategy, strategizing, I don't see any problem with doing something like that on Wednesday nights.

Anyone else? Oh, Keith. I agree. I think it's good to consider these different scheduling

aspects from year to year and i appreciate zach's suggestion and it's good to know that ahead of time so that can get into the schedule for bible class or whatever would have been held on that evening and then i think that what honda suggested is certainly worth considering i i don't know

how Sunday school feels about it. I know we have canceled a few Sunday schools for various reasons, like Easter Sunday, we don't have Sunday school, probably for a similar type reason as has been suggested to make it a little more relaxed and focus on the services. So it seems like if that doesn't put a strain on getting in enough Sunday school lessons,

that would certainly make it nice for the morning at home to be able to treat the mothers. I tried to make pancakes one morning on Mother's Day, but they ended up being hockey pucks. So I don't know about every hubby how they do, but anyway. But I think it's a good idea. Then the other thing that I was thinking that it,

our evening services in the fellowship hall, I think that setting has worked very well. And the attendance ranges from 15 to 30 maybe, something like that. And so there's of course more room for others to attend evening services. And if there needs to be any adjustment in the evening service schedule, I think that could be

considered as well but i know there are people you know that sunday evening services provides a an activity for them to do in a moment for fellowship and hearing god's word whereas they perhaps many times families feel

like they've been out all day and to get back for evening services is maybe difficult to do. But yet I would encourage, even in that way, that as a congregation that we continue to remember the evening services as well. And sometimes I remember from my childhood how mothers and fathers would

sometimes take turns going, bring a couple of the kids to evening services, and maybe some of the little ones have to stay home to get to sleep, but importance of hearing the word and coming to the services, even the evening services, is good to remember. And then I just wanted to comment on what Pearl said earlier about the annual meeting date. I think that

I can understand the point of view, and it's always hard to find a specific date that works for everybody. But the reason for this date, and now this date has been adopted by all the southern Minnesota congregations for their annual meeting dates, not that Minneapolis couldn't veer from that if we wanted to,

but also I think Menahga this year took it on. And probably the main reason for it is that when our fiscal year ends at the end of December, to get ready for a January meeting and get all the agendas and everything ready, financial reports, things closed out, it's worked better to give a couple of months after the end of the calendar year to get the agenda ready. So that's the thinking behind it.

Lisa. Lisa. Lisa. So I can see in April we have a home services month, but it would be kind of nice to also try to fit in Easter song services that month.

Any other comments? Mike? Yeah, we should probably try to get this in as part of the discussion. There's been some discussion in southern Minnesota at the southern Minnesota board meeting, and I'm trying to remember where else, but anyway.

Here's the idea. There has been some discussion in the last couple years about the possibility of having a shared Sunday evening service between some of the local area congregations. Often Sunday evening services are lightly attended, so this could be a time that works to host a shared service in the southern Minnesota area.

On the Sunday evening prior to LLC Summer Services 2019, there was a tent service held at Silver Springs. It was a special event attended by members from this local area. The shared service discussion took on new life as the evening was enjoyed by all who were able to be there. Many expressed their joy in attending services and having fellowship with those who live so near and yet we don't often see. There have been some ensuing informal discussions

And there has been excitement and support expressed for this scheduled shared service in the Southern Minnesota congregations. So this is the concept. On the fourth Sunday of each month, the five Southern Minnesota congregation take turns hosting a late afternoon service. This would be the scheduled event for that time in all congregations. The original thought,

was for summer months only, but the discussion turned toward having year round. As you know, the first Sunday is communion. Some have both morning and evening communion service. The second and third Sundays are scheduled rotation services. And then the idea would be in December, we wouldn't try to have a shared service. So what it means in practical terms is this, that

of the five southern Minnesota congregations, we would each take a turn every fifth month hosting southern Minnesota services for that fourth Sunday of the month. It would give us an opportunity to gather people not only together, but they would gather here every fifth Sunday, and then they would gather at Rockford and Elk River and Cokato and so on.

So that's kind of the proposal. The idea also was kind of bandied about that during the school year. Maybe the suggestion would be that we would have a 4 p.m. service so people could get home early enough to bring their kids to church and then get them home early enough to bed. And then in the summer, maybe it could be a 6 p.m.,

service and there's a lot of discussion yet it's i guess what we need from from our congregation is a general kind of a go-ahead we're interested or not and um so um i hope i've explained that relatively clearly i think there's

you know, questions that still have to be answered. But Charlie, do you have a comment? You got the names? I like the idea. Let's try it. I second that motion. Dave? I like the idea. OK.

So would this be for every Sunday night at four, or would it be once every fifth month? It would be the fourth Sunday of the month. Okay, yeah, it sounds good. So we've heard comments that it would be interesting, let's go for it. Could we, like... We'll get a consensus here after people are done. Okay. Patrick? So, um...

Are we talking about the 4 o'clock start time or the rotating service or both of them with the rotating service being at 4 o'clock? So there's nothing cast in stone, Patrick, but the idea that's been bantered about, I guess, is that during the school year, maybe it would be a 4 o'clock scheduled service so that more people could consider coming and still get their kids home to bed, and that in the summer, then it would be a 6 p.m. service.

for just this, the area evening service? Yeah, just for the fourth Sunday of the month where it's the shared service. Sure. I also say I really, really like this idea. Any other questions? Gary?

Just curious if that takes into account at all the different local congregations that have big services, where they have afternoon services, like in Minneapolis, we got big services in May. Is it? Or end of April? April? Rockford's got them next weekend, I think. Elk River, they got them October nowadays. Monticello's got them February. I wonder if those are taken into account at all, or

Would this be above and beyond those? This would be above and beyond those, and it would be this way that that would be the only service event scheduled in southern Minnesota on that Sunday evening, on that fourth Sunday evening. Okay, so is there a consensus to move forward with this?

We have a show of hands. Okay, good enough. So with that, then we will also look for a motion to approve the service schedule. Billy, is there a second? Or was that a comment or a motion? No, that was a motion. Charlie, all in favor?

Any opposed? Motion carried. Okay, I got a couple announcements here. We have the results of the board member election. Our new board members will be Josh , Dave Parks, and Paul Pylvainen.

And our LLC delegates will be Mike Jurmu, Barb Lever, and Tim [Lahti]. And with that, we will move on to number 12, which is unfinished business.

And then number 13 is new business. I'm not sure if our board report, which we decided to continue at this point in the meeting, would come up under 12 or 13. So since it's unfinished business from earlier in the meeting, let's take it now. And we'll move right into the board report continuation of that discussion, if there is any. Zach.

Just a quick question about the service schedule. So we had some suggested changes, and we passed the service schedule. So did we pass it with those changes, or did we pass it as printed? Or what exactly did we do?

I think there were a number of concerns that were addressed. And my feeling on that was that the board or whoever is in charge of developing the service schedule would take all of those comments into consideration and develop the schedule based on those. Is that an accurate representation of the will of this congregation? Yeah.

Quick question here, for that Mother's Day singing the song and canceling Sunday school, does that have to be approved by the congregation or is that gonna be a committee thing to move that forward? Or do we have to vote on it? Charlie?

There was no motion made, but I'm sure the committee will consider the comments, the service committee. Is there any further discussion about the board report? If not, then we're gonna move on to number 13, which is new business.

And Evan, did you have a comment pertaining to number 12 or 13? I mean, it depends on how you want to skin that cat. You know, it can go under either one, I suppose.

I mean, I would just have a recommendation that the board would have a congregation meeting with these five people that I believe unlawfully refused to leave the closed board meeting. One's a Mattila, a Fredrickson, a Raisanen, and two Keranens, so I'd like to have a congregation meeting.

My impression of the congregation meeting around that would be appropriate to talk and address that, unless the board thinks that they should have a meeting first on that. I mean, I would respect that decision. Two of those folks still continue to go to the board meetings, a Raisanen and a Keranen, and we're at the next one in January.

And I would also like to make a motion. This is to show the sentiment of the congregation regarding a board member's conduct. I would motion to censure James Ojalehto for being not in the love of the congregation and the board for long periods of time. They have, my impression is they have closed sessions and that information gets out very quickly to other people.

And then just general interactions with him have not been pleasant and have been cut off very quickly. And the motion to censure is just an expression of strong disapproval for that conduct. In this article I found online that discusses signs you have a rogue board member, it says, micro-managing staff, board meetings become full of surprises, adversarial behavior, including playing devil's advocate,

nitpicking executive director decisions, often the loudest board member, member yields more power than other members, even though they should all have equal power, executive director and other board members begin feeling bullied. And if you remember from the very beginning when we saw that board member report in our annual meeting packet,

how much distress that has been causing the board. I think it would be well to get the sentiment of the membership

around James' conduct. If there was strong disapproval, they'd vote in favor of the censure and hopefully James would either clean up or realize that maybe he's gone wrong and maybe he should step aside and maybe he'd repent from that. I mean, I talked to him and he thinks he does nothing wrong. That's what my understanding was. So at this time, that's my motion.

Okay. Evan, I just want to caution you a little bit on personal attacks. We don't really want to use a public forum to attack people personally. So be a little cautious in your verbiage regarding that. Eric?

And as far as a censure of a board member, I think the origin of that, I don't know what the mechanics of that looks like, but I would think that that would start from within the board itself if such a thing would be needed. And I think there is something in the bylaws addressing that, but I don't know what it is right offhand. Aaron? I guess the question I was having is,

I mean, I don't know, is it normal policy to go on and attack people in the annual meetings, you know, on a personal basis, or what's the feeling of the congregation pertaining to that? I know it's kind of, you know, it seems like open season for, you know, going after anybody, and it kind of bothers me a little bit, I guess, is my comment. Dennis. Dennis.

Fortunately, us Christians have the Holy Bible that clearly explains how we should behave. And we've heard many times the church love Christ.

Perhaps we've had a Bible class on that, I don't remember, but we've heard sermons. We can go to the scriptures. And I think that, you know, if Evan finds that he, um, there's been an offense, then, you know, he should use the church law of Christ. And, um,

I just wish that the board would actually honor

THE DESIRE TO HAVE FAITH DISCUSSIONS, OPEN DISCUSSIONS AS THE BOARD INITIALLY PLANNED LAST YEAR, 2019, BUT THEN AS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED ALREADY, SOME ELDERS WERE UNCOMFORTABLE APPARENTLY WITH DISCUSSING THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THEIR LIFE.

I think that, you know, Evan, you could, you know, share, you know, in that format at a discussion. But you should use the church law of Christ if you have an offense against someone. And I'm sure you know what that is. I don't have to share that at this time, but...

I think we should really view our congregation as the kingdom of God and actually have discussions. And if elders don't want to participate, then they have the freedom to not participate about the most important aspect of their life. But I just wanted to mention that fortunately we can go to the scriptures for

in a dispute with a brother. Zach. So seeing we have this board meeting attendance policy on the agenda, so I thought I'd make a motion about it just to get the ball rolling on that and kind of focus our discussion and get that out of the way. So I read through it, and it looks pretty good for the most part. I have a couple concerns with it that I'll propose in my motion.

And one is that requests to attend the meetings are subject to approval by the board, chairman, and secretary. In my view, I think if you're a member of the congregation, you should be able to attend the board meeting to see what's going on. And if you're going to attend, just try to be nice, I guess. Don't try to be too aggressive or anything. Then the last point, the board, by majority vote, may enter into closed session.

It seems like that would be a little bit prone to abuse and then it'd be easy just every time, say, closed session, closed session, no visitors.

So I move to approve the board meeting attendance policy with the following modifications. And the first modification would be to omit the sentence that says such request will be subject to the approval of the board chairman and secretary. And the second modification would be, regarding that last sentence, to change it from majority vote to unanimous vote for entering a closed session.

is that say repeat it or yeah can i back you up a little bit because i think we're still dealing with i mean we haven't gotten eugene was going to make his presentation regarding the board attendance policy which we haven't gotten to yet so we're still dealing with number 12 unfinished business which is the board of trustees report and then we can take your comments at that time but i think we need to sort of

Reign in our discussion or refocus our discussion to the earlier item, which was the Board of Trustees report that we opened the meeting, basically opened the meeting with in the beginning. So we had labeled that discussion earlier because it was carrying on for a period of time and we had to get to further business. So does that make sense? Yeah, I thought we were new business. So if we're not new business, no one seconds that I can bring it up again later.

But Evan and then Dennis. So yeah, just a clarification. So I did had made a motion for that. So that is still out there if that's gonna be seconded or not. And my impression at our last congregation discussion, these issues regarding that board member's conduct were coming up there with the LLC and we weren't able to hear from that board member then.

though they were present. So I don't think this is just a new thing coming out of a dark cave, or whatever you want to call it, but maybe Dennis has something else to say on that. I'll let him go now. Is Dennis next? I don't want to just... Chairman? Yes? Is Dennis next?

yeah but there hasn't been a second to your motion evan so i can't do anything about that but dennis has a comment right i mean so that'd be the chairman to call for a second or not and then decide if the motion dies or not so so it's kind of in your court or it is in your thank you kind of so i think we all believe that

All of us that believe that Jesus died for our sins were Christians, and we are the kingdom of God, and so we had Gary Schwab that attended a good portion of our annual meeting from Cokato, Minnesota.

And I welcomed him to eating pizza and so he's not a member of the Minneapolis congregation. And I don't know if his intent was to come for services and ended up being an annual meeting. I didn't ask him, but I think that anyone within the kingdom of God, if they wanna come to our annual meeting

Listen in.

They're welcome to do that. Of course, they're restricted with their voting. They're not a paying member. The bylaws explain what they can and cannot do, but I just thought that was a picture of the kingdom of God. We had a fellow from Cokato, Minnesota that sat in, and he's a member, I'm assuming, of the Cocado congregation.

And I don't think anyone was, you know, raised that point as to why he was here attending our annual meeting. And I don't think he's here at this time, but I just wanted to mention that that's a sign of, you know, his love for us and, yeah, that's good. Kenny.

Yeah, dear Brother Evan, it was totally uncalled of you to come out slinging arrows like that. And I would highly recommend, for the sake of your own soul's salvation, that you apologize to James for that. Mike.

Before we finish with the number 12, the board report, I did want to make sure to thank Olli for his service on the board. He served our congregation for 12 years and served it faithfully, so thank you, Olli, and good fortune on your continued journey.

Thank you. Keith. I wanted to speak before lunch, but we ended the discussion then. And I just want to be open and share my thoughts. I'll first speak to what Evan raised

And I think that I don't know that we have, as far as I remember, at least not used the terms censoring and in this way with regard to a board member. And so I think that

being careful in this and sensitive to it is very important and I think that, dear Brother Evan, what Roger brought out is important to be careful in a public meeting just how to approach these things and it is difficult. But on the other hand, I have to say that I understand too where you're coming from

because we continue as a divided board. And I think that it's not unknown to the congregation that James has differed from the other board members, been of a different mind. And it's a struggle. It's hard to go forward in this environment and work together

when we continue to be divided, as Mike brought out in the report, and as we have discussed in other meetings. And so just how to approach that, how to handle it, is very difficult. And so I think that while Evan brings things out in a very straightforward and somewhat crunchy way,

I think it would be good to approach things in a different way, Evan. But on the other hand, I understand the struggle that we have and that you are trying to speak to that continues to be in our congregation and on our board. Dear congregation members, what Mike brought out is so true.

We're getting tired. This division on the board has lasted for a long time and it's very difficult to continue to do work. And so how to approach this going forward, I don't know. But Mike has brought out in his report what he did and

It is that way. It is what it is. We wish we could speak another language and explain it in a different way, but this is what we are experiencing on the board, and it makes it very difficult to move forward with the work of the congregation.

For lack of a better way to say it, I guess those are just my raw thoughts about that matter. And we are all weak in words, and Evan's certainly not the only one that struggles to bring things out

in these meetings in a comfortable way. I have to say with regard to Ken Risen and that I think that your, what you directed towards Evan, you should also look at your own, what you have said in these meetings and look at that as well.

Then I do want to also address some of the things that came up this morning and first of all the topic of members, new members. It's a very difficult topic and I've said this already so you know this isn't new that it's hard to know how to approach

when new members come. And as Mike mentioned in the report, some of the new members are active in coming to board meetings and criticizing the board. It doesn't feel good. And I want to also mention this,

what our dear brother Paul Parks brought out this morning about members who left the Minneapolis congregation over the years. And I think we all wished they would have stayed. But I don't remember any of those members leaving with a question around them in the Minneapolis congregation.

nor did they go to their new congregations and raise concern there or go to attend the board meetings there. And so I see this difference in that way, and I want to be welcoming to the new members, and we are what we are. The members are, we are together here in Minneapolis.

And I pray that God can help us to heal the divisions that are here and that we could put these things under the blood and move forward. And I want to also say that not every guest...

that has come to our board meetings has been critical. But I have to say, unfortunately, that most have been. And when you come together like that, it seems like you come with common values.

common views and that's the way it feels. But I don't feel that every guest that has come to the board meetings has been, that they have been critical. But I have to say that most have.

And I don't want to get into the attendance policy here because I can comment my thoughts on that after Eugene has presented what he has to present. But I agree with Olli Kujala when he said that these problems have pre-existing.

predated or have been existing before new members have come to Minneapolis, and that's a true statement. But I do have to say that several, many, whatever the right term is, of the new members that have come have joined with

those over whom we've had concern in the past and have joined in this tone or this message of criticism and raising question, and the fruits have been concerning in some. I have visited with some.

and and i'm certainly not saying that all new members have left their home congregations with questions around them but those are true statements and we as mike has mentioned we have discussed those things from time to time with it with board members speakers from neighboring congregations and the discussions that have been

and the concerns that have been raised have not been private concerns, they have been public in those previous home congregations. So that, while the problems have predated them, new members coming, nonetheless, it seems that

Maybe several, many of the new members have joined in that same, into those problems, and it's compounded the problem. Also, Alex Keranymi mentioned

And I say these things with all due respect. But I just want to speak specifically to some of the comments that the division on the board, with the division on the board, for example, our board report should be a unanimous report. And it would sure be good if it could be.

But we have needed to move forward with decisions by the majority of the board because otherwise we wouldn't be able to move ahead with much of anything when there's bigger decisions that need to be made. So we've had to decide on the basis of the majority.

It bothered me, I have to say, that when the LLC was here, whether you agreed with it via decision to have the LLC come or not, and there may be, you know, fair criticism, as we heard earlier, of whether or not we should have moved ahead with that.

when then people that spoke very much at other meetings did not speak at all when llc brothers came here to help us it was bothersome and this both was the case with with the meeting that we had with the board our board and the llc board as well as in the congregation meeting and so

In serving in these roles, we also need to speak our minds and hearts. We serve by speaking, whether we're right or whether we're wrong. And so when a board member doesn't speak, doesn't participate, it's pretty difficult to know how to move forward.

This meeting today, I have been saddened by this, that we have quibbled over this and that. We have a Bible class committee, we have Sunday school committee, that committees that are doing their job and somehow or another didn't feel good to me the way their approach was questioned.

Also, Russell serves as our assistant pastor. And when the board made the decision to have Russell come to serve or to help us at this annual meeting, I don't think it's out of line with our practices that we reimburse him for his expenses. And this kind of thing has been gladly done

in past times in the Minneapolis congregation. So quibbling over that to me does not feel good. There's been discussion here of judgment, and I think we have to all be careful of that.

But yet, when there are concerns that are not only concerns that are known by the two individuals involved or however many individuals involved, they become congregation discussion topics. And we've had to openly visit about some things that aren't so easy to visit about.

And yes, there's lots of flesh and blood that gets in the way and faults that come out, myself included, in trying to speak to these things. But when we speak of concerns, we speak of questions that are here. I don't think that's being judgmental. And

And the Spirit of God has been troubled. The Holy Spirit in our congregation has been troubled over matters that we have been dealing with for a long time now. This situation is one that I don't know.

the way forward, God only knows. But we continue to be, I think, more divided. And then, when there's harsh criticism

of those who try to express their thoughts and maybe are weak in their words and should handle things differently. They are called judgmental. But what about the guests that have come to the board meetings and have been very harsh and judgmental of the board and the ministers?

And so, I don't know how else to speak to these things. And I'm sure I'm offending many with my speech, but this is where I'm at. This is where. These are the thoughts and the concerns of my heart. May God help us

And I think it's only God can open these matters. And only through caring for one's own matters, caring for battling against God's congregation, can unity be restored.

So this is my thought. I'm sorry for my very weak words. I want to be open. I want to get to heaven myself. Just ask if I can believe my sins for you. Rest still.

Risto passed. Is Risto not here? Then we can go to the next person on the list, which is Olli. I've got like eight or nine people on the list, so at some point I'm going to get kind of a

Barometer of what everyone's feeling in terms of how long we want this discussion to go on on this Or if we want to set up another Meeting at a future date to continue this discussion Or what that is, but we can go on for a little bit yet, I guess I don't know if we're gonna make it through all nine people but Holy Yeah

This division talk is not constructive. We hear again and again how we are divided, but we don't discuss what we are divided on. It says that we are so divided, but not what are we divided on.

The same thing was in a board level. It was meeting after meeting, usually by the end of the meeting. And I have to say that this came from very few people, but it was brought up again and again. We are divided, we are divided. When you hear that kind of message time after time,

You believe that, yes, we are divided, but still not knowing what divides us. In one particular meeting, it was again brought up that our board is divided. I made a question. How are we divided?

who are one side and who are in other side. It was named that James Ojalehto and myself are in other side. I made a question in that particular meeting that if the person has approached James one on one and discuss about matters,

That had not happened. I met a question if a person has discussed with me one-on-one. That had not happened. Still this we are divided, we are divided message was broadcast over and over.

I had one-on-one discussion with that person. I had one-on-one discussion with many of the board members. I made one question. Do you have concerns about my understanding of faith matters? All of those who I had those discussions,

they know what they said they know how those discussions went still the same we are divided message is just been brought up again and again that is not constructive that is not what the holy holy ghost guides us to do

It's time to move to discuss what are we divided on. It's time to stop casting this shadow of doubt on other members of our congregation and start discussing what is dividing us.

and find out are we truly as divided as some people make it sound. I'll leave it to that. Joan?

Joan Parks. Okay, I just want to present the question. I know I was reading some of Luther's writings, and he said, if we are not united in doctrine, which is the word of God, we will never have unity. Is this our problem here? Our doctrine is not same in this division in one group or another? That's why I think

We need to continue having these discussions, monthly discussions, so we can continue discussing, so we become united in the doctrine of Christ. Paul.

I already spoke once today about when I retired from the board and what I had said when I left, that I would remember the board and my prayers. I didn't always remember to do that, but now having been asked to serve again, I would ask for your prayers.

When I left the board, when I asked to retire, [family details omitted]

listens sometimes. As we also sometimes listen. But he certainly has deep understanding of faith matters. We went to visit a couple, two couples on a Friday evening and

And a few days later after he came home, he asked my wife. I wasn't there to hear it, but he asked Marilyn that. When you left, did you say the forgiveness of sins? I think we had to hang our head.

I don't want to take too much time because I think it's pretty evident we're going to have to continue this meeting. But one board meeting remains in my mind from years ago. Ron Simonson kept a devotion for us, a short devotion, and he read from that part in the

where Jacob was brought by Joseph to the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh had asked to meet him. The Pharaoh asked Jacob, how old are you? Jacob replied, I don't remember the language in the King James, but he was 130. But Jacob had to say that, few and evil have been my days.

I'll try to serve with the strength that God will give. I will ask that you take care of me. Could I yet believe my sins?

And if I can remind you, be bold in this sense that swallow the mic. Put it right up to your mouth. Gene Hutta. I often hear there's concerns, and we've had many, many meetings, and we've...

Many have spoken of different items, but there's been no feedback on these, but they call them concerns. I'd like to know what these concerns and why haven't they been discussed when we've asked or mentioned them. It just all seems like conversation is one-sided. Dennis?

So three years ago, we were very fortunate to celebrate the 500-year anniversary of the Reformation, Martin Luther. And I really thought the timing of that was just wonderful for North American Christianity. And doing...

some research myself on Catholicism and Lutheranism and recognizing and understanding on how tempting it could be to believe in a broad way for salvation as the Catholics through tithing and through the church.

through your works, through confession, and recognizing that Martin Luther really created a major disturbance within the Catholic Church, and he and so many others became

Lutheran Christ Christians and I think that us Lutheran Christ Christians that believe by faith through grace not of works need to have compassion and love for some that may struggle with Catholicism on a smaller scale

less aggressive manner and that don't zealously go after someone that struggles with saved through the church or saved through confession. I visited with over the last few years a number of different people and they have struggles with Catholicism but I'm not to judge. Surely God will

judge me and everyone else and we believe in God through Jesus Christ we'll have peace with God and surely God will see us through Christ and we will reach home but it is interesting how when one believes they're saved through tithing or through the church or through work

It does stimulate a tremendous amount of workforce, and it's actually, there's some temporal gain, but we don't want to forget who died for our sins, and that Christ is the head of the church, and we believe outside of Christ we will not make it home

And so have love for your neighbor. We should have sermons on love for your neighbor. I wish that would be spoken from the pulpit or Bible class. Roll one.

In response to Keith's

I believe Keith was trying to be fair-minded in how he was characterizing things, but I do remember things a little differently as far as the level of disruption to board meetings. Generally speaking, I've seen my own role, and I know those that have visited also, in going to these meetings. We'll keep our mouths shut until such time as a board member would turn to us and ask what are our concerns, and at that point, we would make our feelings known.

And I would say that to characterize us as having been adversarial, perhaps at times the meetings may have gotten a little bit warm, shall we say. But I will say that the condescension that we've seen and the questioning

and the looking down upon us was very apparent, and which led me to my comment about lording over the flock.

it would be a very dramatic departure from the rest of North American Christianity to start closing off board meetings. And it does send a message to the congregation that your input is okay, thank you very much, but we're still gonna make our decisions beyond closed doors.

And it doesn't foster anything to bring any closure to this gap that seems to exist. Odley brought up some very good points on this division. We've discussed this also with the board members when we've been there. And many times it was after the board meetings were closed. And so that wasn't impeding board business in that regard.

But we were discussing basically trying to get to what is it that's dividing us. And it seems to be, and the impression that I've got, is that there's no desire really to go delve into that because perhaps, I don't know, for whatever reason, but it's that you guys are wrong, we're right. And there's absolutely no budging on that. And if we have that on one side of the two-party discussion, we'll never get anywhere.

It needs to be with this mutual examination that who, not who, but what is correct? And in this case, in the light of God's word, and it says so in our constitution and bylaws. So we need to go to that. As far as not being able to get things done,

One member there made it very clear that because you guys are here, we're unable to get things done. Well, I beg to differ. There's nothing we as people that's sitting on the sidelines can do to stop the progress. We all know each other. This is a family in a lot of ways. We have our squabbles, obviously. But we're not there to second guess every decision. I had a long, good discussion with Mike Jurmu, I thought,

what may be generating some of this. But anyway, you chose not to do some of these things because we were there. And the question that arose in my mind is why? What is so secret about this? Is it comments that you might want to make about people? So what's generating this? And we wouldn't be coming to these board meetings if we wouldn't be hearing noise from people that

are on the board and have have been in the past on the board that describes some of these things that uh to use a very very uh short uh phrases the abuses basically this that you're forced to speak on a position that maybe you're not prepared to make a decision on that you're pressured for the sake of unity okay now what are we unified on

That's what scares me. Are we unified on what the leadership wants, or are we unified in Christ and what the Holy Scriptures say? I get the very strong sense, and I told this to Mike, I get the very strong sense that this has devolved, kind of an institutional religion where the leadership is not to be questioned. Those, it depends on who is saying what.

God has no respect for persons. That appears in Scripture several times. We have tried in our own weak way, and perhaps words that have said that shouldn't have been said, but I would say there's a counterparty to this, too, that's just as guilty. We are not gonna bridge this gap as long as this kind of an attitude persists. And I can tell you this much. If we sense that there's an honest desire on the part of the board, and particularly in Keith and Russ's case,

To come to the congregation, let's have an open and honest discussion on what it is that divides this congregation. I think you're going to see the board meeting attendance take care of itself. And also this idea of singling out board members who are of different mind. I can tell you that in any organization, perhaps the LLC

Keith et al. are heading over the cliff. Have you ever thought that... History cannot possibly repeat itself We are sounding the alarm Rightly or wrongly, okay, but the Bible will determine who's right and who's wrong Okay, but that it's not we're not picking on people here. We want to go with what's right and

This idea somehow that you guys are wrong for coming here. You guys are automatically wrong. We have been speakers for 40-some years. The board is united. We've been to all these meetings. All the brothers agree. Yeah, I understand the temptation to go in that direction, but does it line up with what the scriptures teach? Good heavens, where are we going?

And now the manifestations of this have become evident. Relations between people in North America and Zion have become very cold. I have been subject to the same treatment myself. Perhaps, yeah, I've been guilty of the same thing. These have serious and far-reaching consequences. And if we cannot sit down

and discuss these things in light of the word. I mean, we all profess to go to the word, but let's genuinely go to the word. And then rather than casting doubt on people's motivations for saying or doing what they do, this is scary. This is very scary. And I don't see a good outcome if this continues down the current path. Please.

I'm appealing to everyone's sense of moral fair play and this idea somehow that we have to start becoming tribal and start looking down upon other people. Judgmental speeches have been made and they've been made by board members and speakers toward others that come to these board meetings. Let's stop that.

I know there's a lot of other thoughts, but I don't want to monopolize here the floor. But I certainly hope that things can thaw and go in the proper direction. I don't want to see anybody here, I don't see anybody here that I would like to see go to perdition. First of all, first and foremost, myself or anyone else here. But if this continues the way it is, the results cannot be good.

Emily Parks. Is she here? OK.

Well, I just had a couple of thoughts just based off of other people's comments that have been made prior to this, obviously.

And as a general even though obviously there's been some difficult parts of this meeting so far I do feel like there has been a little bit of progress one could argue With some clarification on some things that people had questions about which I appreciate But what I've been hearing and in these comments it's really made me wonder that is that

is part of our larger problem, the lack of trust between each of us. I really am getting the sense that there might be a lack of trust with the board, with some other people in the congregation,

And I don't really know necessarily what causes that. It's clear that there's probably some personal things that could be taken care of with people here, syndrome or whatever you want to call that. That's been clear today with aggressive language. And I think that that really,

points us to a comment that's been made a couple times here that it's time that we quit talking about the people that are involved in these things, but rather the issue at hand. No one likes to be singled out. It's uncomfortable. We all know that.

And I think that we should show each other a little bit more love than to attack and speak to people here that we are supposed to care so much about. In such an aggressive tone, my word. And I apologize, I fall in the trap myself. I'm human just like everybody else here. But more or less what I'm saying is an observation of what I've been hearing.

And I guess I agree with what Olli had mentioned earlier about, you know, to cease putting the idea of division in our minds. Yes, we all know what's going on here. There's some issues. We all can see that. But it doesn't help to continue to say that and to ride on that. What's the point? Aren't we trying to resolve things? I think I've said this in previous meetings that

We all have to look at ourselves and question, like, what is our intention when we make a comment? Are we trying to belittle somebody? Are we trying to make a rude comment? Or is it edifying? Is it something that could actually straighten something out? I think it's time, you know, we're all adults in this room. I think that it's time that we start to look at this from a bit of a different lens. And also, you know, there's...

there is of course a lot of emphasis on the board we've been hearing about this non-stop but what about the rest of us there's a lot of you know us that are non board members here there's you know I I think that at least for myself when I hear of all these these things that come up and challenges that

You know, people speak about with the board, like it's easy to become doubtful. And I don't want to be in that place. And I just, I mean, yes, of course, we all need to continue to be open about these things if we have any chance with God's help to overcome these issues.

But I also just think that it's also time that we also incorporate the love that we should and ought to have with everyone else here and the grace that we have from God. I just really wish that that would be

You know, we hear about that more too, but I just wish that we would transition our focus to the positive in making constructive and positive comments about others here. And isn't it really our goal to find a solution here that we can all come together? At the end of the day, am I wrong? Okay, we got four names left on the list here.

potentially five, but after that I would like to conclude number 12 and move on to new business, but in the meantime if we can go to Kenny and then Ann.

Yeah, I was thinking about this meeting, of course, and the issues in the Greater Zion. Leading up to it, I was thinking if I should or shouldn't say something, and then Keith spoke up, and I thought, well, maybe I should. So, if you envision a flock of sheep...

A flock of hundreds or thousands or even tens. And there's a wolf in there clothed very secretively, clothed very good so you cannot see him. And they all just look like sheep, every one of them. How do you recognize that sheep? How do you find that wolf in there?

So I think at least some of us remember Walter Torola. I didn't know him personally, but I think we could all describe him from what we know and have heard of him as a kind, humble, gentle, loving, understanding, sincere, and probably many more adjectives to divide him.

Ultimately, he led a large flock of former believers out of God's kingdom. And in hindsight, I think we could all say that he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Then Martin Luther, when he talks about divisions in God's kingdom,

I didn't look this up prior to coming here, but I have read it before. If I could paraphrase, Martin Luther says that heresies are begun or at least supported by men of influence or prestige.

Heresies are begun or led or supported by men of prestige. In other words, the little men in Wolf Lake are not going to be leading a heresy away, in my mind. I moved to Minneapolis in 1976, and at some point I recall a story by one of the Minneapolis elders.

And he was referring to the past heresy, which was fairly still fresh in our minds at that time. And he said the past believers wanted to divide. And I think we can all conclude that eventually they figured out how to divide.

so always comment on this parroting of division division division division division that is in and of itself divisive i highly suspect there's no dividers in heaven zero not a one i have some time ago

in my own mind at least, concluded that we all have a moral obligation to know what's going on to the best of our ability. So now we have in God's kingdom here in America at least one, but I think several wolves in sheep's clothing. So how do we recognize him? We would recognize him by his fruits.

Because we're certainly not going to recognize them by looking at them. Everybody looks like a, you know, fine man or gentleman or woman or whatever. So anyway, about a year ago, I met with Keith right out here in the bench on the playground here after two or three months of trying to arrange a meeting place. And the question

And this had been after Keith had gone north to, I think, at least five meetings with Wolf Lake. Concerns about the brothers in Wolf Lake. Just ongoing and continuous concerns. So I wanted to ask him, and I did ask him eventually. I said, Keith, was it you that initiated or suggested

each and every one of these five meetings. And his answer to me was, I will not answer that question. So now in more recent times, I've again tried to meet with Keith, and he just flat out refuses to meet. He's above reproach. So I have attended three of the board meetings

One a year or two ago, which I was invited. And there's two things I remember from that board meeting. One which will relate. Keith made about a five-minute speech, and he must have said concern about 20 times. Now in his speech again today, I heard concern many times.

So I was invited to the first meeting a year or two ago. And one a couple, two, three months ago I was invited to. And then recently I wanted to meet with Keith again, and he refused. And I had actually sent a letter to the board in November of 2018 about my concerns.

They refused, the board, our board here, refused to address my thoughts. So again, recently, on the last meeting, I specifically requested that I meet to discuss. And Mike refused to put me on the agenda, but I attended anyway. So we have a situation where there's men that are highly respected

leadership positions or ministers or whatever that are dividing God's kingdom. If you all recall Russell's parting speech back in September, that was very divisive. One short phrase that he repeated, which I've heard over my

over my life, just on a rare occasion, but more recently I've heard it more. And he was talking, Russell was talking about heresies. And then I will quote Russell. He said, God cleanses his kingdom. Meaning, God cleanses his kingdom with a heresy.

I had heard this same phrase, a dear friend of mine told me this same phrase about two months ago. And I had heard it before, so I was just at first didn't think much about it, but then I had to go back to him. And I says, you know what? That's a false statement. That is a flat out false statement. God does not push anybody out of his kingdom.

of us on page 18 of his wonderful little book that he wrote before he was killed in the war. He said, the Holy Spirit gathers and unites. It does not beget one brother into one corner and another into another, but always gathers and unites. So yeah, we have issues in Zion in America here.

Dividers, and some of them will openly acknowledge, and others are more subtle, but dividers are actively at work, and I don't think there's a single divider in heaven, nor will there be unless a change of heart comes. And I pray to God that there'll be a change of heart. [Ann Parks]. Front right here.

I feel like this meeting has been good, though rather

taxing in some ways but I really really appreciate when people can talk and Some of the things that are being brought up Have been concerns to a lot of people for a long time and I think we've heard about the rising up against God's kingdom and

i guess i i would be very cautious with this statement what this means to me is we are rising against god's word if we're rising up against god's kingdom god's word is his word and that gives the direction and instruction for us all so

If people are said to be rising up against God's kingdom, I think it would be healthy and good, and I think would be in line with the church law of Christ where we clearly...

say what it is that is incorrect. As in the church law, it says, we speak of the fault. It's named. And that, I think, is what's missing in all of this, is people are scratching their head. Why is this happening, and why are people feeling that someone would be fighting against God's kingdom?

And as far as I've heard and have talked to, especially Fin ministers coming through, the encouragement of discussion. They continually say, continue to discuss. And as I heard, it was even something that was brought up. There were speakers that met with some of the Fin ministers, and that was the message there as well.

If we cannot discuss where do we end up, we just let these things get bigger and bigger and bigger, and the divide only increases. It's not constructive. As far as these discussions go, some people have been willing to discuss, but then with other people, I have sensed when you try to bring something up, the door is shut.

And there's not a willingness to discuss. This willingness, I think, is worrisome and that is where we actually need to go. And then as far as, this was mentioned in the chairman's report, the different voice. My question is, what is this voice saying? What is it that you are hearing?

We need to discuss that alone. Not people, but what is the idea? What is the incorrect voice? We need to name that. We won't get beyond this if we cannot name it.

And the painting of the picture of some people as when a person would say that you are fighting God's kingdom or there's a different voice, that suggests that the Holy Spirit does not reside in that other person. What is essentially being said is that there are unbelievers in our midst, and some people are actually seeing

that you are an unbeliever. We don't have that authority. We don't have that capability to look into someone's heart. But we do have the instruction that we would go and visit with someone. And regarding the public comments, if something is done in public or said in public, then it's fair game to go and publicly make a statement

about this person without first speaking to them. The church law of Christ is unchanging. Even in that respect, if there's something that we hear that we don't agree with,

in someone's speech, the instruction is to go talk one-on-one with that one person and listen to them, try to instruct them, and if that's not heard, take two or three with you, other than that, and then obviously go to the congregation. But this painting, this picture of other people that is, that they are not believing correctly, you're saying that there are unbelievers in the midst.

And as far as the unity goes, this actually does go back to the importance of the word. That's where our unity is found, and that also is where our instruction is. And I was looking at a portion in the Luther

or what Luther has written, and I'll read it. It is a great thing to be sure that you have and teach the word of God. In this conviction alone lies our power. Therefore, we must first determine what we teach and follow is really the word of God.

When this has been determined, and the soul is strengthened by this settled conviction, then it is easy to bear, to suffer, and to overcome anything. And I think, you know what, we can all have our own opinions, but those don't matter. What matters is the word, and I think that is where we need to go.

I would really like to see the return of those doctrinal discussions, and I honestly would question why wouldn't a person want to discuss these things that are so central? And isn't our goal heaven? And do we not be our brother's keeper and have concern for their soul as well? This finger-pointing...

It does us no good. We need to talk about what the Bible says. What is the instruction of God? Okay, we've got four left on the list. Next is Patrick.

So much of what I wanted to say would echo what Emily had said, but from the earlier portion of our meeting pertaining to the Sunday school and the Bible class selection, from my perspective,

It looks like we have someone will make a comment and that comment will be in some sense driving a wedge into the congregation. And then someone else on the other side will take up the mic and use that comment to further drive the wedge into the congregation. And in this way, these groups are working to divide the congregation.

I've been three and a half years here and I don't understand that there are issues. I have no idea what the issues are. I've spoken with many people about faith and I feel like we are largely all believed the same way.

What I wanted to say is when are we going to try a different approach? It seems to be we all have, I shouldn't say we all, but there are recommendations made that require action by the other side in order to achieve unity, that if they will do this, if they say this with sincerity, if, you know, when are we going to take it upon ourselves

I feel like these members who've been attending board meetings, I would ask you, do you believe that this has made our congregation more united, that you would attend these board meetings? I don't feel like it has.

so if your actions are creating more division and you say your actions are to promote unity then maybe a different set of actions is now required and would you consider not attending the board meetings and trust that we do have the holy spirit in us all of us here and god will guide those decisions and to the board

I would say to a large degree, it does not seem like you trust the congregation or the committees. And I've had personal experience with that with the Sunday school teachers this fall. That it didn't really seem to matter what list we came up with because the board was gonna go through it and determine for one reason or another who was appropriate and who wasn't appropriate to teach Sunday school.

And while I understand that this is part of the role of the board, if we feel that there was, let's say, questions or concerns surrounding someone, why wouldn't we approach that individual? We should approach that individual. We should ask them because while this faith that we have provides fellowship, you know, amongst other believers,

There is a downside to it, and we tend to be gossip-prone, and there's a rumor mill. And if someone is struggling, wouldn't we want to reach out to them and embrace them, bring them in, as opposed to say that, well, there's these questions around you, so you're not fit for this role or not fit for that role? That's not love and support. That is pushing them away. So I'd ask the board,

to try to trust the congregation. Try to trust the committee heads. Don't take the word or take it on yourselves to make the determination if someone is a safe pick or not a safe pick. But trust that the Holy Spirit and God will guide this congregation. Just like I asked these other members to trust that the Holy Spirit will guide our board.

If we don't do that, if we don't individually trust in God through the Holy Spirit and instead need to verify through our human intellect, for lack of a better word, whether or not this issue surrounding a member or this issue surrounding a board member has been resolved, forgiveness is not conditional. It's absolute. It's absolute.

And if an issue has been forgiven, it's been forgiven. And if the issue comes up again, then we should hope that it would be forgiven again. But we do have to trust in God and the Spirit and not seek to... I don't know if political is the right word, but pressure or legislate or policy...

our way to a solution because it hasn't worked for three years and I don't see it ever working. And the last thing I want to say is we, and it's been said multiple times already today, we can't discuss individual people and their faults and expect that these meetings will ever end.

The irony is there are many comments stating exactly this, but about someone in the congregation. You could be saying the same thing about yourself. That's all I have. Hannah.

Um.

I guess just thinking about Keith's speech, I just wonder what is the health of our congregation when the pastor of our congregation bypasses the church [law] of Christ and with the new membership has publicly cast doubt on the faith of

many individuals i that to me is something that is very concerning it's not right to make judgments about people and then to publicly cast doubt

put doubt into other people's minds about the faith of another individual. And then also just with trusting the board, there's been a few instances when we have been here visiting late on Sunday after Sunday morning church and

we've basically been the last people out of here. And all of a sudden there's select board members and Keith that come down the stairs. And I just wonder,

Why are there these special meetings and what is so secretive? It certainly does not foster trust. I think that we need to be transparent, especially in these times when there are so many questions and I don't know, I think that we need to be honest.

Oh, and then I was going to just read. I guess, Keith, I would ask you, what is your understanding on the church law of Christ? I'll just read from Matthew 18, 15 to 17.

Moreover, if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou hast been thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church.

But if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. I know that...

When we had that discussion and there was a comment made about the new members, I know that we had talked about it. But I also think that because it offended many people, I think that it needs to be taken care of as far as the offense went. I don't believe that this is the way that we care for one another in God's kingdom.

Kelton and then Russ. I feel like a lot of these discussions

you'll have one side who will say something about James and Olli being persecuted. And they might point at Keith or Russ or any of these board members. But just by pointing at Keith or Russ, you're doing the exact same thing. You're persecuting Keith and Russ. And it can go both ways.

Keith and Russ can feel persecuted just like Olli or James could feel persecuted. And I don't want to point at either groups, but I think every one of us should take a step back and look in the mirror. And I feel like people are telling each other to look in the mirror, but nobody's looking in the mirror themselves.

And that's driving a wedge between our congregation. And I feel like if you asked any one of these people how they believed in what was dividing us, nobody could give you a straight answer. And the only way we come to a conclusion

Together is by discussing the Bible. And that's why we come to church is to strengthen our faith. And I feel like that's the only way we'll be able to come together is not by naming people's names or pointing fingers at anybody. I think every one of us can look at ourselves.

Yeah, I got left thinking about the board report that, you know, the discussion that's been going on.

Very little has been touched on the question and the primary emphasis that the board brought out here of the drive to be in unity, have our congregation be in unity,

make sure we as speakers and board members were in the unity of the rest of the Zion of North America and with the other sister organizations in Sweden and in Finland. But we've seen throughout this past year and previous years how God has shown us through these meetings today

and the unity that his spirit has fostered there where his kingdom is so if we are not part of that unity it should cause us to look back at our own signposts i think it's so important that we look at it as others have mentioned obviously the importance of the scriptures the word

We have our conscience and our own understanding as the Holy Spirit reveals to us. Then the third signpost that needs to line up is the Holy Spirit in the congregation.

And when we listen to that voice of the Holy Spirit and we see that we are on that same pathway, it gives security that this is not just me, not just my reading of the word, not just my conscience and my understanding, but it aligns with the rest of the brothers and sisters.

And so we experienced again this winter in Florida how God blessed us with exactly those kinds of services, those kinds of discussions and greetings where Veli Matihikinen from Sweden and all of the brothers from Finland

in those discussions, always bring back to that same common understanding and unity of spirit that we want to be part of. It keeps us in the kingdom of God and not battling against the kingdom of God. The Velimati Hekinin mentioned that he has received

several very long emails and he's been told that that other group over there is pulling the wool over your eyes. And so the attempt to

as he called it draw him away from that understanding that god has given he says we've gotten to know each other so well through these meetings that we know each other by heart and there's no way his words were that i would accept that kind of an accusation about my brothers in north america and the brothers in finland express that same

fellowship in unity. And so that this has been the focus of the work of our board. And that is why we went ahead with a meeting with the LLC brothers, because we wanted for ourselves, for our own endeavor to be able to be assured that this is a mutual

endeavor of faith a mutual effort and the holy spirit blessed those meetings and so from the board members workshop through our annual meeting as mike pointed out as we wrote in this report the holy spirit has answered and kept reassuring us that this is

God's kingdom. It is his work. This is how he keeps us in that one same unity of faith, hope, and love. John wrote in his first epistle that let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

Christ promised that he would give us the spirit of truth. And the Holy Spirit reveals in the congregation of God what is the time, what is the battle, where does the enemy attack. And the brothers, with their own gift, respond to help clarify that message so we are able to fight against that attack of the enemy.

So this, to me, it seems that that aspect of the report just has sort of been, it wasn't given enough focus, and I wanted to bring that out. One other issue that has sort of arisen lately is this so-called [Torola] heresy doctrine of the local congregation. So if someone would be so bold to think that

we have all we need in our local congregation, and we don't need help from outside. That is the approach that Walter [Torola] and the Mission Board took. And of course, that is why we, as a board of this congregation, have endeavored to make sure that our congregation has remained in that same love and unity with the rest of the Zion community.

And then I would just like to comment at the end here that this year as we celebrated my 70th birthday, I noted that it's been 35 years since the congregation blessed me into the ministry. And I have to say as one...

brother quoted from the patriarchs of old that poor and weak my endeavor has been and i have needed the support and the forgiveness of the congregation because i feel exactly that weight of the and the burden of serving and feeling my own failure in so many things and weak words

I desire to even now ask if I can believe my many sins forgiven.

OK, I'm going to let that be the final word on number 12, old or unfinished business. And if there's any remaining comments, there might have been a couple. We can bring it up at the end of new business. But at least this way, we can make sure we're getting through our agenda items before everyone runs out of gas. So with that, I'll ask Eugene to come up and present his board meeting attendance policy.

Okay, this was already presented just as we see it in the agenda. Had a meeting, I can't remember when it was, last fall sometime, and it got kicked down the road to this annual meeting. So it overlaps pretty heavily with how the discussion has already been going, so maybe I'll read through this quickly and

and we'll see where the discussion goes. So it begins with reasons for the board meeting attendance policy. Provides procedure for congregation members to interact and communicate with the board in the work of the congregation in a positive and constructive manner. Attempts to create a more productive channel of communication with the congregation

at board meetings, considering the board only meets once a month. When a request to attend a meeting is received ahead of time, the chairman and secretary can consider how to best channel the request into board or committee work. Because there are times agenda items that should be discussed as a board only, managing confidential agenda items as well as guest participation

could ensure the trust of the congregation in sensitive matters is being upheld. So then, the policy as it's being proposed, it'll take a minute here at this point, this kind of all started, I'm not sure how long ago it was, but there were requests that had come in to the LLC from other congregations for a similar policy that didn't exist yet.

So the LLC produced a rough draft to answer to those requests. So then we, in considering this matter, we kind of revised the rough draft to what you see here in the agenda. And perhaps with how the discussion will go, maybe there's need to change it even more. We'll see where it goes. But the proposed board,

Meeting attendance policy reads, the purpose is to provide guidance on board members, guests, and congregation members' attendance at congregation board meetings. And the policy would read something like, the board chairman or in his absence, the board officer by succession, according to the bylaws, will preside over the board meeting.

Board members should make it a priority to attend all board meetings. In addition to board members, invited guests such as delegates or subcommittee members will attend such meetings. Their participation shall be by council guidance and recommendation as distinct from deliberation, debate, and voting of board members. Guests or members of the congregation wishing to attend a meeting of the board should contact the board chairman a minimum of five days prior to the meeting.

The request should include names of individuals planning to attend and suggested agenda items, if any. Such request shall be subject to approval of the board chairman and secretary. The board by majority vote may enter into a closed session. Such a session will only be attended by the board or guests as requested by the present board members. So that's how it reads.

I'll let Roger drive the discussion on that. I have some probably additional comments I could share as we go. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay, Mati, go ahead. Oh, I'm Charlie Honan, and I think this policy would be acceptable.

I would move to accept it, and I would make a motion to adjourn the meeting. Gary?

I know Zach had a few comments on there, which I don't think we're gonna have time to edit and okay here. I say we table the discussion on this and bring it up at another date. Is there two motions on the? That wasn't a motion. That wasn't okay. Do we have a second for Charlie's motion?

Tim? Pat? I think, Charlie, can you make a two-for-one motion? I think that's only good on Tuesdays. Two-for-one Tuesday.

Well, so you were making a motion to- Okay, so it was, okay. I misheard. No, he spoke in favor of the policy, but a motion to adjourn, not a motion to vote on the policy. Is that correct?

Yeah, we would. So that was my question. I was confused as to what Charlie was asking. I second the motion. What motion? To adjourn the meeting? Fourteen is told in the meeting, apparently. We're still on 13. So we can adjourn the meeting through 13.

Okay, I would make a motion to accept the board's meeting attendance policy. We have a second.

Let's remember to state our names at the beginning of our speeches. Pat. Charlie.

So specifically to the policy, I feel like this congregation has been around for a long time without this policy and I do understand what the board is asking is to be able to conduct business more as usual and I feel that

Well, I feel like there would be a better way to accomplish that, but maybe that isn't possible at this time. But would some abbreviation to this

perhaps in every other meeting would be board members only and then open to or I just feel like if there's two people who control who goes, who can attend meetings and who can't attend meetings, it's only gonna breed more distrust in what's happening at those meetings. It doesn't feel like the direction we would want to go

Although I do, like I say, respect what it is the board is asking that they can accomplish their meetings in perhaps a more timely fashion. Evan? So I'd like to apologize for making that motion a little bit earlier. Some people spoke to me.

their love and thoughts on that, and so I'd like to retract that public comment I made slash motion, and I talked to James about that in the back there, so I don't know if we need him in here or not, but I'd like to hear the gospel. Mike? Mike?

So this board meeting attendance policy is something that's, as Patrick said, new to this congregation. I think it's probably new to many congregations that this is a, as you guys remember, the template came from the LLC at the request of

some congregations or some members. But anyway, we use that to try to make a policy. The policy is one that's not needed when there's a time of peace.

Maybe it won't work when there's not a time of peace. And so I don't know how much time we need to work at this or how much time we should spend on this. But I will say this, that if we were to implement this policy, the intention is not to curtail

congregation input the the attempt would be to try to have a more predictable way to run our meetings and a more understandable process in our meetings and so that's what the the attempt is and um you know it it shows

the comment that if there's two people involved in deciding who can come, that's not what it says. But the fact that we get there shows the condition of our congregation at this point.

But be that as it may, that's not the intention is to curtail the congregation involved with it at all. Kenny? Can I take a minute to comment? I might be waiting for a long time since I was very involved with drafting this policy. Some of the items that I've already heard

like the third bullet point when a request has come in. The idea there was that somebody puts in a request to meet with the board, that it would go to the chairman, and the chairman and the secretary would visit about it, and maybe the right direction would be for that individual to go to one of the committee heads to discuss whatever their issue is. That's just an example.

It's not necessarily being the chairman and secretary being lords over the board and eliminating or not giving congregation members opportunity to share their issues. And then the first bullet point, it provides a procedure for congregation members. Well, right now it seems like maybe the board is kind of losing control over

over the formal environment of running a board meeting when we have guests that are coming there. Perhaps it hasn't been the case in recent board meetings, but when the topics that they're presenting cause us to not be able to talk about all those agenda items that we have to discuss,

So then it causes our board meetings to go very late. We've had some board meetings go to almost midnight. Month after month, that becomes very tiring on this board. Those are my thoughts I had at this time. Kenny?

So, Eugene, I'm shocked you're putting your John Henry on this thing to close the door to fellow brothers and sisters that might want to listen in. And you know, when I've come there the last couple times, I think Mike has invited me to speak, and I'm like, no, I'm just here to listen.

and i'm happy to just sit there and listen and let you guys conduct your business then at least this last time then we visited after you guys returned and that was seemed like it went very well went very well the last two times so eric general if i'm not mistaken floated this proposal out to all the congregations across american zion and canada and to my knowledge nobody

Zero congregations have adopted it, although I could be mistaken on that because I'm not necessarily in on the loop on that. At least I have not heard of any congregations that have adopted this policy. Zero. That is incorrect, Kenny. Who has? Elk River has. Okay. Recently? Yes. Okay. So anyway...

It's a bad addition to the whatever, because it closes the door. It says, stay away. I can't imagine, I just can't get there in my mind to tell another believer, stay away. I just can't get there. So a prime example now, on the last meeting, I requested to be put on the agenda, and Mike refused to put me on the agenda.

So there you have it. I would be sorely disappointed if the congregation adopts a closed-door policy. I think maybe Olli could relate to how many times in the last 12 years he's come up with a sensitive issue that would require or would have been of enough concern to go into a closed session. Olli?

ROLAND'S NEXT. WHILE THE MIC IS BEING PASSED, I CAN COMMENT TO THAT A LITTLE BIT. AS WE ALREADY HEARD A COMMENT, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOME ISSUES IN THE LAST COUPLE OF BOARD MEETINGS WHERE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IF WE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN A CLOSED SESSION WHEN WE WERE DISCUSSING CANDIDATES FOR THINGS, PEOPLE FOR DUTIES, THAT IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN APPROPRIATE FOR US TO TALK ABOUT

perhaps what some of us board members may have already known about these individuals, to be able to talk in an environment where we had an audience outside of the board. I have three names prior to her. Olli was next on the list.

Yeah, I raised my hand before that question or so on. Anyway, so this policy, I'm usually a kind of favor for policy. They give a kind of framework how we operate. That's good. Policies has to be very carefully considered so that they cannot be misused. This is what we hear here.

okay so um actually mike was saying that we don't want to that it's not the desire of board to limit congregation members bring up items or so on i don't remember how you said but it it sounded like you're open uh for the uh

for congregation members to participate. You also mentioned that it's not really just the two people deciding. So I think that those are good points. I think those are really good points that this policy should reflect. How it stands today, it's opposite. It actually says that

Such request shall be subject to approval of the board chairman and secretary. Okay, so that's the thing. We have to be careful if we really want that. I think it was earlier proposed, take that line out. I think that would be reasonable.

Therefore, we still would have this prior notice that, hey, there will be visitors coming, and if they have items they want to bring to the board, or if they just want to come and listen to it. So I like the idea of taking that line out about approval. Another thing is about the majority vote.

The next, the last bullet point or last paragraph. The board by majority vote may enter into a closed session. This has to be very carefully considered. I have seen a couple times in the past few months when board actually wanted to go to closed session.

And I didn't see in the agenda item anything that was so sensitive that we could not discuss openly. It was not clear why we would like to go in behind closed doors. So that, in those two cases, I saw a risk that if, or I see a risk if that is a majority vote, then

there could be so-called political gain. Okay, so I would say that all board members have to agree that yes, this is such a sensitive matter that we want to discuss just within the board. Can you ask that how many times in the past 12 years

I think all the board members can answer. It's really, I don't recall anything that was so sensitive that it could not be discussed openly. So we have to be very careful before we approve this.

I just want to put two cents in again. If you would have remembered on the agenda of that board meeting that you were referring to, there was an item on the agenda where there was a strong potential that we would have been discussing people for a position. And it would have been difficult to have that conversation with a board with an audience. Why?

I don't know that it's appropriate to talk about possibly known concerns for an individual in a broader group than necessary for one. Can we use our speaking terms too? I'm having a hard time hearing up here.

Deb Landau, I'm concerned because you said that you need to have closed positions to discuss people, basically for positions. Why do you need a closed platform? Why can't you do that in open? If you've used the church law of Christ, there shouldn't be a lot of discussion. It should be a matter of

asking the person to hold a position and trusting in God that that person has the Holy Spirit. My big concern, the reason I raised my hand in the first place, was it was mentioned by one of the board members, or maybe it was Keith, I'm not sure, that you go and discuss these newcomers with other boards. So are these all secret boards? I don't get the secrecy.

That's why I asked why. Would it help you to understand? Let's say we were going to talk about an individual here, right in this room. Would you think that would be appropriate if we were talking about an assignment that would possibly require talking about issues? Not necessarily issues. Maybe that's the wrong term. Maybe things that we would feel that maybe they're not a good fit for.

You should not ever be discussing any individual behind their back. The individual must be present. No board should be talking about anybody without that individual there. That is 100% individual. That's not okay. Okay.

I'm sorry, can we please use our speaking turns to, we have at least eight people on the list, and let people have their speaking turns. Next is Zach. Matthew, are you somewhat familiar with amending motions?

I know we discussed it in the preparatory meeting that we can move to amend a motion, and we have to deal with that before we can continue on. Okay, yeah, so that's the gist of it. So currently the motion is to approve the board member attendance policy. Policy as is. As is, so I'd like to move to amend the motion.

and amend it by omitting the sentence that says, such request shall be subject to the approval of the board chairman and secretary. And then changing in the last paragraph, majority vote to unanimous vote. So if I move this and second it, then we would discuss this amendment. We'd vote on the amendment, which is not voting to pass the policy, it's whether this proposed amendment would be kind of moved into the main motion.

And then after we deal with that, we go back to, are we gonna pass the policy or not? But if nobody seconds it, then it just kind of dies and we're back to the main motion. Yeah, the amendment, we have to deal with that separately and then back to the main motion. Was it Kai next on the list?

I've attended, I think, in the four years since I came from Finland, I've attended two board meetings. And the reason for me attending, just for background on my next comment, is when I moved here from Finland in 2016, I was unaware of any division or of any questions or concerns

Christianity in the United States. So I moved here and the first thing I started hearing from former friends and now current friends is concerns in Christianity. And it was really confusing to me because I lived in Finland for 14 years and I was totally unaware of what's going on here.

So the reason I attended these board meetings is because I wanted clarity for myself, which I got, and it was fine. I don't really agree with this policy written as is. I agree there might be a place for a policy, but I don't like some of the sentences. And I'd have to agree with, I think it was Zach or the previous commenter,

on his amendments to it. If the motion or if the policy passes as is, my fleshly person would like to address my wish to say that I want to attend all the board meetings

I think I'd miss the next board meeting with the five days prior notice, but for the next year that I've paid my membership dues, I'd like to attend the rest of them. And five days prior notice, I think I've given enough notice. That's my fleshly portion. I don't think I'm gonna follow through with that, but it just seems weird that if there's

If there's a policy in place where I have to ask permission to attend a board meeting just to listen in or see what's going on so that I'm not hearing second or third person hearsay, that I can hear it for myself and for my own opinions, I think this would be detrimental for the congregation. I'm going to put two cents worth in again on that. That five day prior to the meeting,

That's for the most part, so if there's an item a guest is bringing up, we can get it on the agenda so the board as a whole will know what this guest is coming to talk about. Because when they come in, blindside us, they walk in the door, we don't know why they're there. We can't prepare for anything that we don't know about. So I think for efficiency of

running our board meetings, as is stated here in bullet point two. We only meet once a month. It'd be really nice if we wouldn't have to go till nearly midnight. So if we could try to keep this as managed as possible, having items that we're talking about on the agenda would be very helpful. So that's kind of what that's about. We have Keith next.

I agree with the comments that we've heard from other board members here, and Mike and Eugene especially, that the purpose of this is not to limit communication between the congregation and the board. The purpose is not to do anything secretive.

And the board, I know, welcomes communication with the congregation. As long as I've served on the board, we've talked about that sometimes less, sometimes more.

But the need to keep good communication with the congregation, it's essential and very important. And getting input from congregation members is very important because the board is just part of the congregation. It's not separate from the congregation.

And that's an important point to always remember. It's the board and the rest of the congregation, or the board is part of the congregation. It's not above, it's not below, it's part of the congregation. And so I know that the spirit of congregation

these discussions with regard to attendance policies, as Eugene I think has well pointed it out in the agenda, if you read those carefully, that is the purpose of it. To better facilitate the work of the board. And I'd say this, that

I disagree that there are, even in recent meetings, as well as in meetings over the years, that there are few items that you would discuss openly with visitors present. It's not a matter of being secretive about anything, but the board develops, the board and the ministers that attend develop a,

understanding for each other, and they forgive each other. They forgive weak words. Sometimes a board member may say something too harshly, too quickly, or too strongly, and other board members understand that, yeah, that happens, and we carry one another in this work.

things come up that you can't anticipate always. Agendas are only agendas, and you can't always anticipate what might come up in the course of an agenda item. And it does restrict board member freedom when something comes to mind, but you think, well, if I say that, this is gonna go out into the congregation.

because there are visitors here. And it's not ready to be communicated to the congregation. And I think that's important that the board has freedom to prepare and develop and deliberate over things and work on things together. And when it's time to

communicate the item to the congregation, then we're ready as a board to do so. But if information is intermittently going out to the congregation before the item is even completely discussed, that's not productive. It's not good for board work.

We experienced that and Mike pointed that out with this very policy. When Eugene sent it to our board members for review, it was immediately sent to congregation members. That wasn't visitors that did that because they didn't receive it. But it went to visitors and so then it creates a situation where

The board hasn't even had a chance to discuss it yet. And the board is already being criticized for the work, the action. So the board isn't allowed to do its work. And I think sometimes when we need to discuss people for positions, whether they be teaching or even other positions more practical in nature in the congregation,

Sometimes the freedom to discuss some, I don't mean problems with an individual, but gifts that they have or what would work better, it's not comfortable to discuss that so openly when visitors are present. But we're used to discussing that as a board. It's not a matter of being secretive, but it's a matter of being free, being able to freely discuss and go back and forth on things and then come to a conclusion.

But if everything we discuss is immediately communicated broadly, well, it's pretty hard as a board to do the work. So I really think that the purpose of this is not to limit

connection, not to limit communication with the board, but to facilitate it and organize it in a way, as Eugene mentioned, that the board, when chairman and secretary receive a request, they know that, oh, that's already being discussed, and they can direct that item where it goes, rather than spending time at a board meeting on something that's already well in the works.

But I want to say this, that over the time that this has been discussed, I've had a chance to chat with brothers from Finland who have visited here, some have not, but who are very involved in the work of the kingdom. And I would say I probably have chatted with maybe four or five

And they're just almost shocked that visitors would be at our board meetings. In fact, they've said that that wouldn't happen in Finland. And frankly, in the experience that I've had in serving here in Minneapolis and in hearing about the work of boards,

I've never heard of anything like this happening that we've been experiencing in recent years. And sure, it's related to the difficulties that we have right now. But still, I guess I would like to think this, that even if I didn't agree with the board, and I was sitting in the bench and wasn't part of board discussions, I just can't imagine coming to a board meeting in that way.

If I wasn't elected to go there, I just don't feel like I can authorize myself to go there without the agreement of the congregation.

to the basic approach. And so I really feel like, I don't feel any need to hide anything, but I think that the freedom that the board has to serve and to work as the board and the trust that the board has is essential for the board to do its work. And if there's not that trust,

And this continues. It's very difficult to do work as a board. In fact, I decided personally and I communicated it to the board and some visitors that were present at one meeting that I just, I don't want to be involved anymore when visitors are present. Because of what we had experienced to that point with visitors present.

And so I decided I wasn't going and I left the meeting because I just didn't want to be there. It didn't feel good to me. But then the next meeting I stayed because I realized by doing that I'm inconveniencing the board by not participating in a way that we all give our input and are working on mutual

mutual work together. So I really, I don't feel like this is just as the policy stands. I think that I know our chairman, our secretary, that they are very thoughtful and they want to facilitate the communication with the congregation. They are not going to be trying to limit, but

trying to understand the purpose of why someone wants to attend and consider it in view of the agenda for that evening. And when we had the recent experience with visitors that even after the board formally decided to go into closed session and the visitors did not leave, it's just plain wrong.

And I think we have to call it that. The board certainly has

the right as a board to meet privately about matters. And it's not a matter of trying to be secretive. So I really feel quite that this is important. And I feel very comfortable with the way the policy has been written. And I don't feel like it's something that we

are trying to limit congregation communication with the board. Dennis? I think it would be helpful to

Define the role of the board and the role of the ministry the priesthood and In Finland we oftentimes Speak about our sister organizations in Europe Sweden and Finland and many

that are familiar with the priesthood and the boards in Finland know that the boards take care of the administrative duties of the church. As Kenny Risenen quoted God's word that,

the apostles didn't have time to attend to the temporal needs of the church, and they went forth to spread the gospel, and they elected seven men to take care of the needs of the widows and attend to the temporal needs, and I think that our board

would actually probably function a lot better if Keith didn't attend the board meetings. Because the purpose of the board is to take care of the temporal needs, and now we have a few per ministers, so our ministry is down to one and a half ministers. But when you

When you find the role of the board and you base your foundation through the scriptures, then you realize that if 12 out of 12

board people happen to be women, and it was set up based off God's word, then they would take care of the temporal needs of the church. Here in America, in this congregation, for sure, the board has spiritual, a spiritual guiding influence. Its purpose is spiritual.

temporal and that role isn't clearly defined and so it's probably a real struggle to focus on one task when you've got the spiritual aspect but going back to that if the majority and the chair lady of our congregation was a woman and

Perhaps 9 out of 12, we did happen to have 12 board people, 9 were women. The women would then guide the church spiritually. They would elect possible men into the ministry. Then the church would be run naturally by women. I think we all agree that that's not scriptural.

So I just really believe that if we could actually base the purpose of the board off God's word and heed to that, then we would be in a much healthier situation. We have two Linux down the list.

Yeah, I just want to comment this policy that time where is like now where there isn't trust

in the board or not all congregation members trust our board members, I think that it's really important to keep everything open and transparent. That if we try to exclude members that way too, it will increase this division what's being seen today.

And to make the comment about Keith's comment in Finland, how they are shocked to hear that congregation members wants to attend to board members, I have the same experience.

I want to clarify that there is not this kind of issues in Finland. So there is no need for congregation members go to board meetings because board has support from the congregation. So I think that the more

both tries to close or hide or make it secret, the more it causes untrust in the congregation. We have Mike next on the list.

Well, Ken, you brought up a topic twice, and so I felt compelled to speak to it. At our last board meeting, you did send me a text that you wanted to be on the agenda, and I asked you what the subject was. And you sent me an initial, or two initials. And I did tell you that.

that I wouldn't put that on the agenda as it wasn't a subject. And that I thought you should bring it up to the congregation, whatever your concerns were. And you have brought your concerns to the congregation. And I just wanted to clarify that, that it wasn't that I refused to put you on the agenda. And we discussed things afterwards. So...

for whatever that's worth. And Dave Tolgan, next. Am I on that list by chance? What's that? Am I on that list? Yes.

Yeah, I guess I haven't said a whole lot today. That probably makes a lot of people happy, but I agree. I don't have a problem with this policy going forward. However, I do have a question. Why is it that I have never wanted to sit in on a board meeting and yet I'm content?

Pat is next.

It's been touched on earlier, but I do agree with the need and the desire to run a well-organized meeting, and I certainly think that people should notify or request to attend board meetings with a specific agenda item, and maybe even a time limit on discussion of that item for that board meeting would be appropriate.

My question would be, as you had said, Eugene, that it wouldn't be appropriate to discuss certain people as it pertains to concerns that surround them and whether or not they're appropriate for certain roles or not.

And I agree with you. At this meeting, it wouldn't be an appropriate discussion to happen. But I don't know how shrinking it from this size of a meeting to a group of 15 or 13 or 11 or 9 makes it appropriate. Is there a number that a discussion becomes appropriate versus inappropriate? If it's inappropriate, it's inappropriate, regardless of how many people are discussing it.

and maybe it was just a poor choice of words on your part, but I think it does allude to the concern that people have, and that is that discussions about people are not necessarily appropriate. And if this is occurring on the board, it shouldn't be occurring without involving that person. Just because

I know for myself, if there were questions about me and discussion about me, then I would want to hear that. I would want to hear those concerns. I would want to know. I would want to be part of it.

So I don't think what's appropriate here would be inappropriate at a board meeting and I think that what's inappropriate here would also be inappropriate at a board meeting. So that particular reason doesn't really hold any merit. The other thing is I actually would like to second the motion, the modification that Zach made

I don't remember his exact words, but something about unanimous and striking one other line.

The motion that Zach brought up was to omit the sentence, such request shall be subject to the approval of the board chairman and secretary. And then, let's see, the last sentence, or let's see, change the sentence that says the board by majority vote may enter into a closed session that the other proposed amendment is to change majority to unanimous. We have Roland next on the...

I did have one other thing that I wanted to mention, and that was that some of these things might be hard to communicate, but I think that things getting out to the congregation and the board not wanting and getting them out, it does apply that these things are offensive to some people. Otherwise, what's the concern with it getting out?

I don't know what topics the board would discuss that would be an appropriate discussion that would then be inappropriate to get out. I do understand that you don't want to present a half-baked idea to the congregation. That certainly makes a lot of sense to me.

And if that's what the idea is, that, oh, you're coming up with whatever, let's say a parking lot restoration, and the initial estimates come in at $75,000, and everybody understands that, well, that's not going to work, but it goes out to the congregation, and you get 25 emails the next day saying that.

you guys are gonna spend 75,000, you're crazy. That makes a lot of sense to me. And maybe that was what you guys are alluding to, but it seems to be more on the topic of people. And if it is on the topic of people, then open doors would be a better policy. Okay, I'm gonna take this opportunity to speak to that. So for a couple of months on our agenda,

we had this open board position with Matt Jacobson resigning. So that would have been a sensitive thing that we would have wanted to talk about without an audience to consider names because the board, by the bylaws, has the right to fill that position. So if we would have had an audience there, the audience wouldn't have been in the same level of confidence as the board,

The board is expected to be a quiet, confident, or a voice, a place of confidence for congregation discussion items. And there's a process involved. We would have perhaps come up with names. The candidates that we would have considered would have been visited with. So it's not like I've been hearing where we would have just

willy nilly been talking about individuals that the individual should have been there. This is, if you understand our circumstance that we're in, maybe that might help understand what I'm referring to. We have Roland next on our list.

a little bit to what Roland Karenin, a little bit to what Tuula mentioned. This invoking Finland, I know many of us have done it, but

The judgments we make about any situation that's in front of us is dependent on the amount of information we have. So when Keith made whatever statements he made to the Finnish brothers and they said they can't imagine, I have to wonder what was told them and if our concerns were brought forth and would they have a different take on it. And the other thing is that

You know, Keith mentioned that he left the meeting, and I was present at that meeting. And the question I would have is, do you see yourself as indispensable? I did make an observation after you left. The board had a very good meeting. And one dynamic that I think should be brought to your attention, Keith, here is this.

Like I say, I've had quite an education in observing just the human dynamics here. And when board members are advancing their ideas, they tend to take furtive sideways glances at you and see if there's any kind of approval coming from your direction. What that indicates to me is that there seems to be an outsized influence on one person on the board, and that's never healthy. Perhaps it would be good.

that the board be allowed as a board to discuss these things. I don't have a problem not being there. But this idea that somehow you have to be there, and this is true of any board member. I'm not singling you out, Keith, in this regard. But the danger is that we have someone who can possibly grow too much in stature, maybe unintentionally,

But it sets up for abuses. And so I agree very strongly with both Olli's speech and Zach's speech on limiting the language where it cannot in any way be abused. I would love to just stay home from these board meetings, and I probably will, but the idea somehow that

We're filtering who comes in here, who brings ideas. And this has come from the congregation, and you're conducting congregation business. You're crossing a line there. You're getting into very, very strange ethical territory. Olli?

Yeah, I think I raised hand to second that amendment to the motion, but it's already done. And listening Keith and other comments here, I think that the policy with those modifications that are in that

in that amendment, I think it still meets the purpose, especially since, like Keith, you mentioned that the desire is not

trying to limit attendance or however you said. So I think with those modifications, it meets what I heard from you. Bill? I guess my issue with it is that it's up to the

chairman and secretary, the current chairman and secretary, they could do a great job with this policy. But we don't know 10, 15, 20 years down the road, because boards change throughout the years. And suddenly an issue does come up and they're blocking people from attending these meetings, not saying the current ones will, but 20 years down the road and say, well, this is the policy we've had.

for the last 20 years and that's kind of what worries me is the power that the secretary and the chairman would hold. It seems like right now it's a short-term fix that could have problems down the road and I just,

I just think I have no interest in, I've had interest in going to board meetings, but, you know, just to see how the workings of the congregation works. I recall at services many years ago, everyone was talking to a friend, and I was like, oh, where were you? She was like, she was at the delegates meeting. I was open for all to attend. I was like, oh, I didn't even know that, and I was, you know, quite interested. How come, you know, that's an open meeting. How, you know, that was why...

I can see why the board needs to get work done, but it seems like a short-term fix for now and that could have consequences in the future. Maybe not even when we could all be gone. I guess we gotta be very careful about these policies.

So I'll speak to Bill. A policy like this would be very easy to change. We could revisit this at every annual meeting if we wanted to, make changes, or if we decide that it's a bad policy, we could get rid of it next year at the annual meeting. So there's no long-term consequences of approving it today.

Next we have Emily.

I was just going to say, I know I said it earlier, but there's been other people that have said the same thing, but I think this conversation just speaks to the level of the lack of trust that we have here. And what really makes me wonder, or which then begs the question that what caused the lack of trust in the first place? I don't know what that is. I'm just trying to think of this in a logical manner that, okay, we've heard from multiple people.

my grandma went to a meeting, my mom's gone to a meeting, other people around here have gone to a meeting to see what's going on. And I've had half a mind to go myself, but then after I've heard comments from people saying that if you show up, you might look like you're going against the congregation, that you're there to make trouble. And so I just kind of left that where it was. And I think that it's a really valid point to consider is where did this come from in the first place?

And the way I see it is if I'm going to trust you, I hope that you're going to trust me back.

it's an equal conversation if we're gonna have that level of trust. Now, I don't know how we can restore that, necessarily. I don't have the solution to that, but I'm just thinking that all this conversation going back and forth on these things, I mean, there's been significant changes that have happened here in the last two years, and yes, I agree, Eugene, we could change this policy in a year, we could amend it, we could take it out, whatever that is, I agree, things can change, but

I'm just simply stating the fact that I'm observing that this clearly is a problem for quite a few people in this room. I would dare to say other places in Christianity in North America, here in the U.S. specifically. I don't know, I don't have the solution. I wish I would have something better to add to that, but I just think that it speaks that I feel like there is

a large gap that needs to be bridged somehow, and I think that answers their trust and love. I don't know what broke it in the first place. Jeff? We have six people on the list yet, and it's getting pretty late. We'll see where we're at after these six individuals get their turns. Jeff, I think somebody brought this up already, but I think it would be an excellent idea to have a congregation meeting

as to what the board, what the duties of the board is. That way everybody be on the same level. Because I was at one Sunday morning service, and Mike got up and said something to the congregation that just totally misled what was going on at the board.

And that's the way I felt. And then Eugene, I gotta ask you, what would be wrong with talking about people, potential board members, in the church like we did a couple weeks ago? I mean, that seems like a good way of doing it. Rather than a board coming with a recommendation, you're already inputting thoughts in people's minds. That would be more,

of a congregation thoughts. That's just my thought. Yeah, I guess the setting would be quite different. We'd have a smaller group of people. There wouldn't be opportunity for perhaps input from the individuals who are being mentioned is one thing that could be a difference. It'd be a place where maybe names would become recommended and then

there'd be some discussion with these people later. So it'd be a little bit different setting than our nomination meeting was. We have Charlie next on the list. Yeah, I would call the question on Zach's amendment. All right, we have...

All in favor, raise hands. Can you restate? Oh, yes, I'll restate. Yeah, we should let... Let the four remaining individuals speak, and then we'll call the question. Okay. Jan is next in line for...

Okay, I'm on the youth committee chair now. I mean, I've been on the youth committee for about 16 years, and we've come up with names for a lot of different things, presentations, youth committee members. And the youth committee discusses it, and then we send them to a board for approval, and it's not a big deal. And I don't think, I mean, like Pat, your Sunday school director, your name was discussed at a

a board meeting before that. And I don't think you had to be there. I mean, I'm a youth committee member or whatever. My name has been discussed at the board meeting. And I didn't have to be there. I just, I don't see where people think they have to be there if their name is discussed. There's just nothing wrong with it. So I just want to make sure you're not saying that I said that you need to be present at a board meeting when your name comes up. No, okay.

That wasn't my intention, so. I think the name being discussed has to do with issues with you as it pertains to matters of faith are being discussed. That's under the context of that. Is Jan Fredrickson still here?

All right, next on our left list is Zach. I put my hand up so long ago my thoughts have changed, but I was thinking maybe we should kind of keep things moving along and try to stick to our speaking turns so we don't whittle away more time. That's all I have to say for this time. James is next.

As far as my thoughts on having visitors attend the board meetings, I don't have a problem per se having a policy, but I think that there should be that freedom for people

to come whenever they feel like, even if they don't have a specific issue, if they want to come and listen to the board meetings. I know the meetings that people have attended up to this point that have, for myself, it was not uncomfortable. But I thought it brought more discussion forward as to what issues we're discussing.

I agree with Zach's and Olli's comments that we should strike those two portions out of that because it comes across that it's the board chairman and the board secretary have discretion whether people show up or not. And then the second part is that, or the last one is that there has to be a, the majority would rule on whether people can show up or not.

To me anyway, as a board member, I want to be transparent as possible to what takes place at the board meetings. And transparency is the best way to go. I don't want to come across that there might not be something that we should not discuss in front of visitors. But on the other hand,

matters that are of a sensitive nature that are brought to a board member or to a pastor, in my opinion, those types of matters are confidential between whoever the person is and whoever brought it to either a board member or to a minister. I don't believe those belong at the level of the board meetings. Because when you're discussing somebody's private issues or personal issues,

That is highly confidential, and it could be highly offensive to a person that in confidence went to a board member or to a minister, and then it gets brought to a board meeting. I don't agree with that, and I don't think it's right to do so. I suppose my bottom line on this is that transparency is always best in these matters. After all, everything that we discuss, we discuss it before the face of God.

And Olli is the last person I have on the list. Okay, just to clarify that this is discussion about attending the meeting.

really good comments about should be, has been made, should be something be discussed in a board meeting or so. But let's just keep it clear that this is about attendance policy. How meetings are run, that's a different topic. This should not be part of that.

This does not speak to how meetings are run. So this is if and how congregation members should be allowed to attend meetings.

All right, so at this point we have the motion on the floor to amend the proposed board meeting attendance policy as follows. The sentence, such request shall be subject to the approval of the board chairman and secretary would be struck.

and the verbiage of the sentence, board by majority vote may enter into a closed session, the proposed change is that majority would be changed to unanimous. All in favor, raise your hand. Do we have our vote counters?

Yes, the amendment that was just read in favor of the amendment.

All right, we have our number. And then all opposed, raise your hands.

And then we have in the balcony as well.

Two months for him. We might have to do four, too, because now we have to have numbers.

Don't forget the balcony.

You call it.

I think we... The motion has been... The board is members of the congregation.

That's true.

So maybe you can clarify what should be written down on the paper. The quorum is taken at the beginning of the meeting.

Does everyone understand what they're supposed to put on the paper? If you are in favor of the motion to amend, that is what we are voting on at this present time.

Do we want to use A for amending, B? It's yes or no. It's yes or no. If you are in favor of amending, you will vote yes. If you are not in favor of amending, as was read, you will write vote no. Yes.

Okay.

What's that?

I've had hours ago. Well, yeah.

Yep. Right now. What's that? Okay. Yeah, everybody's down.

No, but I doubt that anything else is going to come up. I hope.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Or just squeeze it and it sprays off.

Oh, boy, what are you doing there?

All right, so we have our results and the noes carry it. Noes. Chairman, cast tie-breaking vote.

All right, now that we have that sub motion dealt with, if we can deal with the main motion that we have, which is to approve the attendance policy as is. I suppose we can go immediately into calling that vote. We have had considerable discussion during the sub motion. I think it's appropriate we can vote at this time.

I think we can proceed with the meeting. I believe, yeah, I believe that issue is being dealt with at this time, so. We can proceed into the vote on approving the board attendance policy as it is written. The amendment failed.

Do we have our vote counters available? Are we gonna do this raise of hands or do we need to paper ballot it again? Let's do raise of hands. So all in favor of the motion as it is written, raise your hands.

That has come up in previous meetings and we asked. And a motion that is on the floor that has not been dealt with must be dealt with. This has been, the motion has been put forward and seconded. We need to vote on it.

Keep your hands up.

We have a number. Okay, all against, please raise your hand, or all opposed. Keep your hands up.

The same? What's that? So the yeses have carried it? Okay, and the motion carries, and we have approved that as it is written. So unless we have any other new business, I would be looking for Charlie Holman? Motion to adjourn.

All in favor, raise your hands. All opposed? And then are we going to wrap up with the prayer and the

We have a prayer and closing song and announcements.