LLC Board Member Workshop, April 30, 2022

Let us quiet this morning in opening prayer and thanksgiving. Dear Heavenly Father, this morning we ask for your blessings for the day ahead. We approach you with prayerful hearts that you would yet reveal and show us individually so closely that this is indeed

Your kingdom here upon this earth. And in it is found the gospel of the forgiveness of sins that each and every one of us can hear and believe through faith. We see this morning, dear Heavenly Father, in your creation outside,

That the spring rains are falling and preparing the ground for seed. We ask, dear Heavenly Father, that you, knowing so well the hearts gathered here, that you would send those rains.

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power,

Although many of my dear brothers are here with me this weekend, warm greetings from my home congregation there in Glendale, Arizona. And also, dear brothers, if I may, how good it has been. I thank you for remembering even me and our family as we prepare for our change in our life and our soon

Our pending move here to Minnesota in the coming weeks feels insecure to come. I want to read for our opening devotion this morning a few words that Jesus left with his disciples at the end of the 28th chapter of Matthew.

We read these words in Jesus' name as follows, with that prayer that God, who knows our needs for this day, could open the word accordingly. Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Many of your Bibles might have a heading around this portion of God's Word as the Great Commission. Then you might wonder that, well, what is a first, what is a commission, and then what makes a commission great? It is great because it's the instruction given by our Lord and Savior Jesus about what

His disciples, what his followers ought to do. It was now some time after the events of Easter, Jesus was here upon this earth, visiting amongst his own, and soon his ascension there to heaven was to happen.

No doubt that some of the disciples were yet reeling amongst themselves and wondering at what had just happened there in Easter. And as we may remember and recall from Holy Scripture of Jesus' time here upon this earth, he visited often with his disciples.

And gave these kind of hints and indications that he wasn't going to be here for a long time. That it was expedient for him to return to the Father. And the disciples even asked that, where are you going? Some even asked, can we come with you?

Jesus said, where I go ye know not yet, but soon ye will come to understand and learn. All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. So clearly here is given

This testimony of the Trinity of God, that Jesus was indeed the Son of God. All things of God were given to him to make him known here upon this earth, to make him be that atonement for sin.

And what did we see as the demonstration of this power when Jesus was here upon this earth? Many received their sight. The sick were healed. The lame were able to walk. Such was the demonstration of the power of God through his Son here upon this earth.

He also gave this commandment to us that go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We saw there as the disciples wondered after ascension,

They gazed up into heaven, but they were not left alone for long. When the angel visited them and told them that don't stand here looking far off into heaven, but go now and do the work that Jesus has called you to do. What is it, dear brothers and sisters, that we go to teach?

All nations, we go there to teach of God's invitation for salvation. We go now only confessing that reason of joy and reason of hope that we own in our own hearts.

So that those that might hear, if so called, can believe. Said teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. It's an interesting thing to start to wonder or to ponder that what did Jesus teach?

What has he commanded to his disciples and to us? First, one of Jesus's sermons gave much instruction there on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount, when he especially

spoke to us about how condemning the law was. He spoke to us how unable we are to merit or bring anything before God as a work of salvation.

Because so often, even in our thought, we fall so short of the standard God has set in his law. But he has called to you and to your brothers when you have even now, perhaps this morning, begun to examine your place.

What have you seen? You have perhaps come with these kind of questions. Why am I here? Perhaps you feel very closely your sinfulness and your fears. So God's word calls us from this place of worry and fear

To a place of joy in believing. And dear brothers and sisters, only in this place of needing the soul completely, the care and the instruction from the Heavenly Father, can we then begin our work. So we need to be fully undressed of anything of ourselves

And what do we do but wave those filthy rags to put behind us because they indeed are nothing. Jesus left this promise to his own that in due time he will send the Comforter.

And he will bring to remembrance all the things that he has taught, both here in his time, but also, dear brothers, the Comforter yet remains here in our midst. And we wait upon the work of the Spirit, even in this time, to teach and to teach us of our Heavenly Father's

Command to us. As he said, and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. So he is yet here with us in time, through the power and presence of the Holy Spirit. And we ask and pray this day, dear Heavenly Father, send us of your Spirit.

For the glory and honor of your kingdom here upon this earth, and for the glory of your holy and precious name. That first and foremost, dear brothers, this morning, we find ourselves, as the disciples did, or as those that were there to hear the commission of our Lord and Savior Jesus,

When they had come to that meeting point appointed by our Lord, they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted. Do you find this morning, dear brothers, there is a portion of you here within you that wants to worship, but there is a portion within you that is close to doubt?

The power this morning, dear brothers and sisters, for your endeavor today is in the gospel of the forgiveness of sins. And in your place of watching this morning, begin this day believing all sins and journey faults forgiven in Jesus' name and precious atonement blood. Be free. Be free with this gift that God has so blessed unto you. And may you

Speak and share this day for the glory of God's kingdom and for the upbuilding of his congregation so that none would be lost along the way and that hearts could so receive the word of our Heavenly Father made alive today by the power of the Holy Spirit. But dear brothers, I am the one who

The word of God here speaks so closely when it says, but some doubt it. May I believe my sins. It is my desire to believe together with you. In Jesus' name, amen.

Sing song 159.

[Hymn sung (Song 159); lyrics not transcribed]

Good morning and welcome. It's a nice, perfect day that God has given us. For those of you folks coming from other than the Midwest, you might wonder about this rain, but it's pretty normal for here.

Except that we haven't had enough rain, so this is welcome. But I've also thought that if God would have given us a nice 70 degree day, sunshine, I don't know how many of us would have been able to bear this meeting. So it's God's blessing for that, that we can just enjoy the day that God has given us. We have

Any number of participants online, I don't know at some point we can relate those numbers. We had about 150 sign-ups for in here. I'm guessing there's probably over that, well over that, taking into account the sign-up sheet in the back. If you haven't signed in, please do.

We may have some information or documents that we'd like to send from this meeting. We don't have anything in particular planned at this point, but if we would have that updated communication list, it would be very helpful for us at the office as well. This meeting today has been very interesting.

Scheduled and planned primarily for local congregation board members, delegates, and ministers. We've seen in recent years the importance of all of those, but in particular the role of the delegate has been very important in our work in recent years.

And so for that reason, the delegates are very, it's very nice that they're able to attend these kinds of meetings so that they can be more aware of the ongoing work of North American Zion, but also of the spiritual situation we're in and as we deal with from year to year as well.

When you go and represent your congregations at the annual meeting, you're going there with a very responsible position in that you're going and speaking on behalf of the congregation that has sent you. So it's nice that you're able to join this meeting as well, so welcome.

In Arvin's opening devotion, he asked that question rhetorically, but who was it that was supposed to be here? And I don't know that any of us feel so... It's necessary that we're here, but it certainly is a blessing that we can all be here. So welcome to each of you, your brothers and sisters. The schedule, we've expanded it this year just a bit.

And I know to the chagrin of some of you folks, I heard some murmurings and grumblings that why go into the evening? If you folks are very concise with your speaking terms and prompt and whatnot,

We may not need to go into the evenings. Our schedule is flexible, but it primarily depends on you folks. But we wanted to offer the opportunity when you travel from afar, especially in the day that we're living, with the spiritual difficulties we face,

Give plenty of opportunity for board or delegates and ministers to have their thoughts, be able to share them, questions to be asked, and so on. So the primary focus today will be on the current spiritual situation. We've asked Jim Frantti if he would highlight that and where we are today.

And then, in addition to this, we've asked Jon Bloomquist to present this topic on God's realm. I guess it's a very important topic that we're facing in the day that we're living.

And so John will do that this morning and we'll have some opportunity to discuss either of those presentations till lunchtime and then also after lunch we'll have opportunity to continue that discussion. After refreshments this afternoon then we have some business

Stuff to update you folks with, both from the LLC office, some of the communications that we feel are important. And then after supper, we can continue with some of these business items where there were some topics that we felt would be important to address from our ministers meeting. So the pastoral department will address some of those

Topics that we discussed at the ministers meeting that we had recently up in Stony Lake and also a bit of an update on the facilities and the development of Silver Springs. Very, very high level, very brief, not in any kind of

Arvin's thoughts and prayers that God would bless this day according to his holy and righteous will. So, is there any questions? Concerns? Seeing none,

Now we'll ask Jim Frantti, and after Jim Frantti's update, we'll sing song 183, and then we'll move into Jon Bloomquist's presentation from there.

Well, good morning and God's peace to all of you. I have to say it is really nice to see so many of you here, see faces of dear fellow travelers and feel secure for me to stand up here and see so many dear fellow believers.

Reminds me of the security of God's kingdom. My part will be to simply give an update on the spiritual situation because as you heard from Eric, we will have Eric and Adrian give updates on some of the work going on within the LLC and

So you will hear those later on. So I will try to simply give a summary of things where we are at right now and hope that you will all feel free as the day goes on to share your thoughts and questions and suggestions on these matters. It's not such an easy duty that I've been given here.

And I simply come with that prayer that God would give the right kind of words that would not be harmful to the work of the gospel. And I ask even now if I may believe my sins forgiven. I want to remain as a childlike believer traveling with you, dear brothers and sisters.

In the matter of spiritual topics, one that I will only mention briefly because our brother John will describe it in more detail, but we have had this worry or question recently because of what we have faced with a trigger, I suppose by the COVID issues, but has brought about many discussions and thoughts regarding

The government and our role in society in this earthly realm. And sometimes from our old portion, this fleshly portion, we can have strong opinions about these kinds of things, political matters or whatever they might be.

And sometimes we have heard some fairly strong positions taken about how we ought to treat some of the government mandates or recommendations and especially it's worrisome if it begins to become such a significant issue that it divides us as believers and breaks the love of the believers.

And that's one of the reasons that our brother John has been asked to give the presentation that he has. So I won't go into that. I will gladly defer it to John and to our discussions here later. When we were in Phoenix for winter services, we had our regular board meeting at that time out there.

I was asked at the time to give a summary to the congregation from our board discussion. Perhaps many of you have already heard that and know the contents of it, but I will just mention here about that board discussion that first of all, I think many of us went to that meeting with questions

Wondering what is the way forward. Personal doubts, as we heard from our brother Arvin, that we can experience and worries. And yet at that meeting, we experienced this, that one brother after another spoke openly and freely. The meeting was so open and free and united. And one speech after another, they joined together.

And for me personally, at least, it felt like God is leading us. Individually we have questions, but collectively God's spirit guides through the gifts he gives to his children. And so it was so good to be there and hear that discussion. And at the conclusion of that, board members said, we need to share this also with the congregation.

We know that it's been quite some time now that we have experienced here in North American Zion the efforts of the enemy to divide the believers. And we have had discussions and meetings, well, for at least the last seven years, and I'm sure we could even go back beyond that.

It's been a long period of time, and we know that the enemy has tried during this time to raise questions about the basic teachings that we have always heard in God's kingdom, that which the Holy Spirit teaches.

And that's, of course, nothing new. It's one of the things the enemy likes to do, raise questions about God's teachings. He did it in the Garden of Eden and he still does it today. He doesn't ever seem to get tired. We get tired and weary in the face of all this, but the enemy seems to never run out of energy. But through those many meetings and

Correspondence and discussion. We have to say that God has been patient. Sometimes we might individually become impatient and wonder when will all of these things end? When will God give clarity so that we can experience what we have experienced in God's kingdom, righteousness, peace, and joy?

So we have tried to wait on God's time. And in the board discussions there in Phoenix, it felt to us like God was showing us that now his time is here, that we need to address these matters openly, and that everyone needs to pause to ask in their own hearts, where am I?

What have my actions and words been? And not look at the faults of the other believers or the faults of God's kingdom. We have heard a lot of those pointed out over the years. We have heard these statements that North American Zion is law-minded in its teaching. We've heard that we have this kind of

Wrong and heavy governance of the household of God that hands out rulings and positions on things that must be followed. We've heard that the believers are living in fear. They're fearful of their local boards and of the LLC board and of the speakers and are afraid to speak. We've heard about things like wrong confession doctrines.

And I have to say, dear brothers and sisters, that doesn't join at all with my view of God's kingdom here in North America. I haven't experienced that at all. I haven't experienced fear from you and other travelers, but joy to be believed. I haven't experienced that in our local congregations, boards of

Become heavy-handed and try to govern over the believers, but that you who serve have wanted only to serve as true servants, humble servants, to serve God's congregation. And I know that has been the same attitude in our LLC board meetings. When we have gathered, it's been a gathering of empty vessels.

Weak believers needing to hear the gospel but yet wanting to have hearts willing to serve. And so it's been sad to hear those kinds of statements and accusations that have been made towards our North American Zion. I have said myself that this North American Zion has been my refuge.

And to hear those kinds of accusations, it's like it's pulling the foundation out from under us. Where is our refuge if we can't trust God's kingdom here in North America that has been so loving and gracious and cared for us through all these years?

Have you, I would ask the question, have you brothers and sisters experienced North American Zion to be anything other than a place of grace and forgiveness? I would dare say of myself I wouldn't be here today with you as a child of God if this wasn't the kingdom of grace and forgiveness.

And it has been so sad to hear that different kind of view being expressed of our Zion of North America. I would say that not only have I experienced this North American Zion this way, but in the many, many meetings and visits that we've had with those who serve in it, the Zion of Finland and Sweden,

We have experienced there also such a complete unity of faith and spirit. We meet frequently with, for example, those who serve in SRK in Finland, and we have always together marveled at the unity of understanding and faith and spirit between us. And that can't come from the flesh. That kind of unity is only the work of God's Holy Spirit.

It has been so comforting and encouraging in this time in which we are living. And we have also needed advice and counsel from those others who serve, because the enemy would, of course, always like to isolate or divide us. And so it's been really good to feel that close contact, know one another from the heart and feel the unity of faith.

Last time we had that kind of joint visit, which was just, I suppose, within the last month, those brothers in Finland, they said they have marveled that North American Zion has been so patient in dealing with these difficult issues.

But they also gave us this loving reminder that patience can also turn to leniency if it goes on too long and in the wrong way. And we know that believers are weary of the battles and want very much and pray that God would

Would care for things and repair things so that we could restore unity and travel together as a united flock. God's children cannot travel as a divided flock. Jesus once said, a house divided against itself cannot stand. And so it has felt to us like we have reached a point in time now when it is important

That everyone asks of themselves, personally, where am I? We don't want to look at one another and try to point out the faults and flaws and errors and failings. There are plenty of those in each of us. But God's kingdom collectively, it is an unblemished golden candlestick.

Do we see it that way here in North America? Do we see it as a place of grace and forgiveness and a refuge in this world? So the board has felt that it was time to try to make an appeal yet to those who have been battling against

The North American Zion, and we know there are those who have been battling, who have found a lot of fault and criticism directed towards our North American Zion. And so we know that God knows the hearts of everyone, and we know that there may be those in various places that have struggled over these matters,

But in particular, the board felt that it would be important to try to reach out to the Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations to try to visit yet one more time about these matters. And in doing so, it was our feeling that we're not looking for some prolonged debate

Or discussion over doctrinal issues or those kinds of things because we full well realize, I think each of us individually, that we aren't believing because someone convinced us of correct doctrine and we were given the correct doctrine to see God's kingdom. We have had to realize we are weak in our understandings

We could easily be confused on points of doctrine. In fact, the Bible says, who can search the depths of the wisdom of God? But we are believing because we have found ourselves to be sinners and we have been able to ask for the gospel and hear that simple message that we can believe our sins forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus.

We heard it again this morning, didn't we? And it felt good, didn't it? To hear that simple message. We don't have to be wise or mighty or noble or have all understanding, but simply believe like children believe. We recently sent from the board correspondence to both Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations

To request that the board could send some members to visit in those congregations, not for the purpose of this kind of deep debate and discussion, but more for the purpose that we could share our perspective on where we think things are at now and encourage that matters would be cared for.

If someone has gone astray in things, in a wrong way, attacking God's kingdom, we know that that can be cared for. And it's cared for through repentance and believing the gospel. And that's what we want to encourage. But, you know, we all know from our own experience how when we carry this old sin corrupt portion,

Our own human portion so easily puts obstacles in the way of repentance. It's nice to be right. It's not so nice to be wrong. I've had to discover that many times at home, how wise my life is when I can finally admit it, that I am wrong on something. You know, the enemy tries to put those obstacles

But when we are able to care for our matters and humbly repent, I don't know, have you found it this way that you wonder why did it take so long? It's such a simple thing. Ask for and receive forgiveness and those faults and errors are removed as far as the East is from the West and we can feel free and joyful again as believers. And that's our hope in trying to arrange these visits.

That those who have been battling against God's kingdom could find a place of repentance. And no one sent by the board would go there feeling like they have the answers or have come to point out faults, but only to make that kind of plea and invitation that has always been the message of God's kingdom. To repent and believe sin's forgiven and care for matters.

So we sent those letters and we got a response back from Minneapolis board on behalf of the congregation inviting us to come. And so we have made the arrangements now. They suggested some dates and we responded with a date that works best.

And so now in mid-May we will be arranging that chance to visit there. And I ask you, brothers and sisters, already now please remember in prayer that visit. Remember those brothers who go there to try to serve humbly and make that loving appeal.

And pray that God would bless that we don't want to see anyone lost. Recently I had heard this kind of view that somehow we are wanting to go there to push someone out of God's kingdom. And you know

That that is not the wish of anybody. We don't want to see anyone lost. We have dear friends, loved ones, family members who have become confused. Do we want to lose them as fellow travelers? Or do we want to in love help them to find the way? So we will be having that meeting in mid-May now in Minneapolis. And then

Just this past week we heard back also from the Wolf Lake board on behalf of the congregation there. Their correspondence was brief and it wasn't exactly clear

The message wasn't exactly clear to us, but it seemed like it was a welcome to come there and visit. So we have also responded now to that and proposed a date and an opportunity when some brothers could go and visit there. So it is

It is positive in that sense that we are being invited to come to visit. And then we just need to depend on God's blessing and guidance. I have sometimes said that for myself personally, I have had to reach this point that we realize that none of this is in the hands of man. We can affect nothing.

We don't know others' hearts and we can't affect anything from our own part. Only God. Jesus once said that no man can come to me except the Father draw him. It's only God's work. May God help us. And so dear brothers and sisters, I simply in closing make this plea to all of you.

That you remember in prayer those who are struggling and battling against God's kingdom. Remember in prayer those who are trying to help. And remember those visits that we would have coming up now in mid-May in prayer that God would be there and would open things and would guide. So that's where we are at with the spiritual

Matters and I know that we have received questions from some congregations about a more general correspondence to the congregations about some of these matters and where we are at and we had felt that we wanted first to have that chance to correspond with those two congregations and that has now happened and so

Hopefully, after those meetings happen a couple of weeks from now, we will be able to prepare some kind of update or correspondence to send out to the congregations because we know that you folks have questions and congregation members have questions about where things are at. And we really would like to get that kind of information out

Prior to our upcoming summer services and annual meeting. And in closing, I forgot at the beginning to bring you greetings from my home congregation in the Copper Country there, from the Pelkie congregation. Any greetings were sent this way. This past weekend, I was out on the East Coast

For services, those small isolated believers out there also wanted to send greetings. They were so happy to be able to have services and be in the hearing of God's word. It was nice to see them.

We see how God remembers his own, even in lonely places of watching, he remembers his own and sends his word to them. So with that, I think, Eric, you said we have a song before John begins. Okay, Eric says we'll sing song number 183. And I will just say that in our ensuing discussions here today,

Please freely share your thoughts. God's Spirit works collectively through all of us. We need to hear your thoughts. We don't want to go astray, those who serve, in our own thoughts and ways. So be free to share your thoughts.

[Hymn sung (Song 183); lyrics not transcribed]

All right, here we go.

Good morning. God speed. Jim gave a little bit of an introduction to this topic.

As you brothers and sisters know, we have the last couple of years lived through some new challenges, both at the congregational level and at the individual level, because of this pandemic.

And I don't need to give you a long list of those challenges, but our lockdowns and social distancing and capacity restrictions and

Masking requirements, cleaning, school challenges, and economic challenges, and also other kinds of challenges like isolation, loneliness, and some of the psychological and mental burdens and cares and difficulties that come from those things. And

I know in our congregation and our board in particular, we really struggled with how to deal with many of those questions. And they were new issues. There were issues that we realized even initially that there were many

Many different perspectives and thoughts and opinions about. We had to consider how to deal with them. And it was a difficult struggle. And I guess a lot of you who are sitting here today are quite familiar.

With those struggles as well, I don't guess you had a much easier time of it than we did. And when I'm standing here before you this afternoon, or this morning, even though thankfully it appears that many of those

These issues are behind us, and we hope that they remain behind us. At least for me, it's still a difficult issue to speak about today. We on the LLC Pastoral Committee

We discussed this for the last several years. We had phone calls and maybe some emails and requests from speakers and board members in LLC congregations looking for some help and some advice.

As to how to deal with these challenges. And one of the challenges was maybe more than anything dealing with the differences of opinion and understanding that we encountered in our congregations. And some of the strats and tensions

The difference that surrounded that. We recognized at that point, early on, some dangers, maybe two primary dangers. One would be a

Kind of rigidness and impatience in implementing the guidelines and relating to those who felt that we should ignore or resist the guidelines or who maybe chose themselves to ignore or resist the guidelines. The other danger or concern

What's that we would ignore God's word and become lenient and negligent in our responsibility to teach God's word and to abide by it. So finally in March of 2021, we sent out a minister's message, which is,

Little digital bulletin of sorts that we send to our speakers. And in that, we try to address those concerns and to share some thoughts about what might be the appropriate way to approach these issues. And I guess that many of you board members

May have seen that document or at least heard of its basic content. Then in April of 2021, it came up at the minister's camp at Stony Lake as well. And there

One brother in particular shared some of his thoughts and concerns that I think the rest of us couldn't quite agree with. And I say quite for that reason that I think we all thought

That the brother was very honest and sincere in the thoughts that he expressed. And in fact, we could agree with many of them. We shared his concerns about

The state of affairs, if you will, in our country in not just the last couple of years, but as it's been, I think, trending for a long time. And there are concerns that I think all of us share. The world continues to darken. And the reason that

We couldn't quite agree was because of maybe the approach to facing those issues. But it was a good discussion and it ended in a good way. And still after that, we have heard and continue to hear

There seems to be perhaps an underlying train of thought that is worrisome and would appear to be rooted in a misunderstanding of God's word and the manner in which God operates.

In the world that he has created. And so, in a way, during these discussions from time to time, talked about teaching that has

Become known as the Luther's doctrine or teaching on the two realms, or the two regiments, or the two governments, or a whole host of other terms. It seems that the terms that Luther used are very difficult to capture with any single

English term. And I was a little bit comforted last evening as I was reviewing

Writing on this subject that he thought there was not really any word in the Finnish language to quite express it either. And so that's why we speak of it in so many different terms. Eric, on the schedule, gave this presentation, the title, God's Realm.

And I've entitled it, as you can see, God's two realms, how God operates in this world. And then the term the two realms really speaks not to the fact that there are two worlds, two material worlds, two

Places that we live, but rather literally the two ways that God operates in this world that we live in. At the time that Luther wrote about these things, the light that he shone on these issues

It was quite a breakthrough in the darkness of the medieval church in the Middle Ages and its understanding of both the relationship between the church and the state as well as the way of salvation.

In the medieval church, Christians had been divided into two groups. The clergy and other servants of the church who were on a higher, more holy and better way, and then the rest. And

That was not compatible. It was not in harmony with the teachings of God's Word. And in fact, in the Middle Ages, the Church had taken the position that the Church was above all.

And that temporal government was subject to the church. And so many rulers, for example, who were Christian in the sense of Constantinianism, you know, under Emperor Constantine, when Christianity became the state religion, they were terrified.

If they did not subject themselves to the ruling of the Pope or priests or monks, that they would be excommunicated and other punishments. And so there was this dark and very confused time in Christianity.

There were other questions that came up, for example, whether or not a Christian could, in good conscience, serve in government in any way, whether as a magistrate or a prince or a soldier.

And it was based again on confusion around what is regarded as Jesus's radical teaching, which we call the law of Christ. When in his Sermon on the Mount, he speaks about the law of Moses, and he speaks of the law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

And it goes on to speak about how if our enemy strikes us, we should turn the other cheek. And so there were those who felt that they could not as a Christian serve in temporal government.

In enforcing the law, for example. So those were some of the kinds of questions that were relevant at that time. They aren't the only issues. There were also issues that are probably still relevant to us today.

And that's a question that's come up when we've spoken about this a little bit, at least when I've visited with some others. Well, is Luther's teaching relevant anymore?

The feudal system of middle-aged Europe, for example, is a much different form of government than the one or the ones that we live under today in mostly democratic countries. I think though that there is a relevance

Some of the obvious, obviously some of the circumstances, the details and practical issues that we face are different. But the fundamental principles, the fundamental teaching is the same across all ages and relevant to all forms of government.

If we think of government in the course of human history, it's gone through many stages. It began with family, clan, tribe, city, states, monarchies. In Luther's time, they were in a phase in which it was becoming more of a territorial type of government and so on.

I don't know if government has ceased to develop in progress, but time will tell, probably long after I'm gone. But this doctrine that we know of as this doctrine of two realms is also related

Two other doctrines, for example, the law and the gospel, Luther's teaching about the two kinds of righteousness, even our understanding of creation, and many other teachings. And we can say that with Luther, he did not sit down one day and decide to

Create some sort of systematically a teaching about these two realms. But rather he wrote and addressed the questions and the problems that he and others faced as they arose in the light of God's word. It wasn't his invention.

His creation. It's all there in God's Word. And he, with the gifts that God gave him, tried to speak and teach as God's Word teaches. So, in this doctrine, Luther's doctrine of two realms,

We find a spiritual realm and a temporal realm. The spiritual realm is concerned with the preaching of the gospel, the word of God. Its business really is the salvation of men's souls. The temporal realm

This is concerned with the rest of God's creation and work, with the material world. That is everything that is necessary for preserving and continuing life in the world. Thus, it also includes what Luther in his time called estates, economy or commerce.

For work and business, marriage and family, and of course, the state or government. So he wrote about these things over a period of many years.

I think one of the earliest that I've read and referred to in this presentation was in 1520 when he wrote a treatise on good works that he was asked to write to address the very real concern that people would misunderstand the doctrine of justification by faith.

And used wrongly for the liberty of the flesh and that society would fall apart for lack of good citizens and good works. And so that was...

One of the beginning points. Then he wrote to the Christian nobility the same year. And a few years later, he kept a couple of sermons on 1 Peter 2, verses 13 through 17.

From which then came maybe his most notable writing on this subject, the one that's maybe most often referred to. And that's temporal authority, to what extent it should be obeyed. And then he wrote an admonition to peace, to the peasants of the region,

He wrote a treatise on whether soldiers too can be saved. Then he finds some in his large catechism, his teaching on the Fourth Commandment, and then his commentary on the 82nd Psalm. And those are only a few places. When we talk today about Luther's doctrine of two realms,

We'll focus on the last mentions of those states on temporal government because that seems to be one of what's most relevant for the issues we're faced with now or we have been faced with. And the other thing is obviously there wouldn't be time to get into

Anywhere near any of those other things. But when Luther writes about temporal government,

And many aspects of it. He speaks about the responsibilities of the rulers. He speaks about their accountability. He addresses the issue of whether or not believers can serve in temporal government. He speaks about a believer's duty, their approach and their attitude to suffer around doing.

On their own part, when it involves them and their duty to prevent wrongdoing being laid on others. And those two things are very closely related to the responsibilities of temporal government

The believers' role in this world. So, I will refer a fair bit to some of Luther's writings. And then, of course, Holy Scripture. So, here is a quote taken from

Luther's address to soldiers, as I recall, and whether or not they too can be saved. And he says this, and these next three slides are all part of the same quote, but I've broken them into segments here. First, he addresses the spiritual realm.

For God has established two kinds of government among men. The one is spiritual. It has no sword, but it has the word, by means of which men are to become good and righteous, so that with this righteousness they may attain eternal life.

He administers this righteousness through the word, which he has committed to the preachers. Then he continues, the other kind is worldly government, which works through the sword

So that those who do not want to be good and righteous to eternal life may be forced to become good and righteous in the eyes of the world. He administers this righteousness through the sword. And although God will not reward this kind of righteousness with eternal life, nonetheless, he still wishes peace to be maintained among men.

And rewards them with temporal blessings. So here we have an example or mention of the two kinds of righteousness that we find mentioned often in Luther's writing.

One is actual righteousness or alien righteousness or forensic righteousness or any of those kinds of terms. That's the righteousness that God gives as a gift in his Son, Jesus Christ. The other is passive righteousness or proper righteousness or

Civil righteousness or philosophical righteousness, we find all those kinds of terms. And they have to do with just what we would call leading a good and decent life. The righteousness that God gives saves. The righteousness that we see in a good and decent life serves. It serves our neighbor as God has intended.

And we, I think, can all acknowledge that we know people who are not believers. They may not even be Christian in the broad sense of the word, who are very good citizens, very civically or civilly righteous, more righteous than me, for sure.

And who bring a blessing to our society and to us. And that pleases God. I've thought more recently, and I don't know if my perspective is right, but when Solomon writes that righteousness exalteth the nation, but sin is a reproach to any people,

I've kind of come to the conclusion that Solomon is speaking of this civil righteousness there. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that that's very likely. Well then, Luther continues

Saying thus, God himself is the founder, lord, master, protector, and rewarder of both kinds of righteousness. There is no human ordinance or authority in either, but each is a divine thing entirely. And so,

We can say and understand from this that earthly government has been established by God. He is its Lord and master and protector. It serves his purpose.

I've borrowed this chart from one of the books that I looked at as I was preparing for this. I've made some modifications to it. But I think it's pretty helpful, at least to me, and I hope it will be to you. At the top, you see the title, God's Rule Over His Creation.

He's Lord God of all, creator of heaven and earth, as we recite in the creed. But he operates in this world that he has created in these two ways, in these two realms. And Luther himself

On a few occasions, I guess, use these terms, but it's become very popular, and understandably so, because it illustrates the thing to be illustrated quite well. And that is to speak of the temporal realm as God's left hand, and the spiritual realm as God's right hand.

And what's helpful and important about that is if we use this kind of anthropomorphic picture, you know, God as a man, we recognize there's one. There's one God. There's not two.

And just like we use our left and our right hand, we use them both to serve our purpose as a human being, right? They don't work against us, one of them. That's the intention, okay? And if we think of the temporal realm, then we see that the law is central.

To the temporal realm. And it has, if you think of God's law in two tablets, the second tablet, the first tablet deals with what? What God expects of us in relation to him. The second table of the law speaks of what God expects of us

To our neighbor, to our fellow man. And so the law is central for that, for how we relate to others and conduct ourselves. And government is the institution in this world that is responsible for law.

And for creating tranquility. Government uses civil servants. They, just like servants in God's congregation of whatever kind they may be, they're also God's servants.

The temporal realm uses the sword or force, the force of law. And with that, you know, whether it's fines or punishment or whatever it may be, that's how civil government, God's left hand, does its work. And it's interested in the practice of ethics.

How we treat others, how we conduct ourselves in society. And it preserves and protects. It aims at justice, and its goal is to see that this world that God has created operates in the right way, in the way that God has intended it to. And it works towards peace.

The spiritual realm, the right hand, the gospel is central. It deals with our relationship with God. And the church is the responsible institution. And its servants are servants of the word. And it uses the word of God to do God's work.

It's interested in the means of grace and its purposes to redeem and restore. It aims to justify men. And its goal is the full restoration of God's creation. And it can deliver peace now, as Jesus said, my peace I give unto you.

Not as the world gives, give I. And it all eventually leads to, of course, the end of this world. We know that it will end. And at that time, Christ's eternal kingdom will be revealed. And as the scriptures say, then all things shall be put under his feet.

And there's a couple of kind of guiding principles that help us to understand this, and that's that there's a distinction between these two realms and their role and their worth. But they are not opposites. They're not in opposition to one another.

Luther, for example, could never see government as the kingdom of the devil. That didn't fit with God's word. So there is this cooperation. They both serve God's will and purpose, and they can't be confused. There's problems if they're confused either way.

The basis for Luther's teaching on these two realms, or in particular, I should say, on temporal government, is found many, many places in God's word. We could probably spend all day here if we were trying to look them all up and to read them all. But there are two places

That especially speak to this issue in the New Testament. And we know, especially in the last two years, that they have become very familiar to us. One is Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 13, verses 1 through 7. See the first four verses on the screen now.

We'll read them, but I guess many of you have read them quite many times in the last few years and thought about them. And I can tell you, for me, there were times that I read what's written there and I had to ask myself, do you really believe that now?

Do you really believe it? Because if you believe it, it means your conscience will require you to do things that you don't want to do. You might think they're foolish. You might think they're untimely. You might think they're misguided.

You might think they're unnecessary, and they're certainly inconvenient. But dear brothers and sisters, the conscience of the child of God is, is it not, bound to and guided by God's Word.

As fine a document as the US Constitution is, and I'm sure the Canadian Constitution is a fine one too, I'm not at all familiar with it, but as fine as those documents are, they are not our highest guide and authority.

And so I'd read the words again, and I'd wrestle with it. And like I told our congregation, I said, you know, if I could find a way to ignore doing what's being asked of us, I'd be the first one.

But I can't find any place in God's Word that would justify that. And so, I don't see how we can do anything other than make a good faith effort to endure this suffering. So here,

Paul writes, let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God. The powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have the praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid.

For he beareth not the sword in vain, for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore, ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also,

For they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues, tribute to whom tribute is due, and custom to whom custom, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. Written by a man

Who suffered much in Roman prisons for sure. And was mistreated by magistrates in villages where he brought the message of the gospel. But also a man who found protection

In that government which God had established and in which he was privileged to say, I am a Roman citizen. Then Peter,

Speaking of this same subject, the man who endured likewise suffering at the hands of the government, and like Paul too, eventually was put to death by that government because of his religious beliefs. He writes, submit yourselves to every ordinance of man.

For the Lord's sake, whether it be to the king as supreme, or unto governors as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God.

That with well-doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of the foolish man, as free and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God, honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear. Not only to the good,

But also to the froward. I'm guessing most of you aren't real familiar with the term froward and what it means. I know I haven't used it in a long time, other than when I read the King James Bible. What does froward mean? In this case, at least according to the concordance, it means crooked.

Untoward, crooked or curved. And as a metaphor, it means perverse, wicked, unfair, servant. And this kind of brings us face to face with another really important issue that I'll address a little bit more in the next slide.

But before doing that, I want to mention now something that I guess many of you have heard, maybe some of you have said. And I think meaning well, if you have said it.

Some brothers who may have chosen to speak on these texts or other similar texts on some occasions were accused of bringing politics into the church. I don't believe that's accurate.

Now, I haven't listened to their sermons. It's possible, of course, that we as servants of the Word. I know I've done it, had to actually apologize and ask for forgiveness for it in my impatience and irritability about these things. It went into my flesh, and I knew it when I did it.

It didn't feel right. But these issues that Paul and Peter have written about are not political issues. They're moral issues. They're the law of God or the word of God. They reflect God's will. And for us to speak about and to teach

God's children of God's will. It's not a political issue. And, you know, I shared in a visit with one brother, I said, what kind of a servant of God's word would I be?

How would I be serving the congregation that has asked me to serve them? If I only spoke what they would like to hear, rather than spoke what God's word says, I'd be an unfaithful servant. So I have to speak

As God's Word teaches and as I believe. Here's one of literally what could be hundreds of excerpts from Luther's writings from many of the treatises and letters and books that I alluded to

God commands us to honor and obey temporal government. And Luther, when he wrote this treatise on good works, at one point he writes about the fourth commandment. And about the fourth commandment, he identifies what he calls four works that are required by that commandment. This is the third of the four.

He writes, the third work of this commandment is to obey temporal authority. As Paul teaches in Romans 13, 1 through 7, and Titus 3, 1, and St. Peter, and 1 Peter 2, 13 through 14. And then he says, here men sin in two ways.

First, if they lie to the government, betray it, or are disloyal to it, neither obeying it nor doing as it orders and commands, whether with their own bodies or their possessions. And then I'll jump down to the next highlighted part. Second, we sin when men speak evil of the government and curse it.

And when a man cannot avenge himself and abuses the government with grumbling and evil words in public or in private. I don't know all of you and your political liens. I could probably guess for, you know, 98.5% or so.

And I'd also guess you're quite a bit like me. And in the political environment that we have lived in for probably a few decades anyway, now, no matter which side of the political aisle you might be on, I would guess you'd have to say

I've failed miserably in this department. Oh boy. But there are legitimate questions that come up. And a year ago at Stony Lake, the brother that spoke was on his heart.

Brought up legitimate issues and questions and concerns. And so there's a few things I thought I'd touch on here. And I want to especially draw your attention to the left hand side, this left of the slide.

A Christian as a citizen of the world. You know, as believers, we're citizens of two worlds, or two kingdoms, I should say. And we're the only ones who are. Everybody else is a citizen of only one kingdom. But then look at the subtype.

A broken world. So, what does that mean for us? If we go back to creation, the creation account, that's where we find the first words, the first commands, and the first indications of the temporal realm.

God establishes, for example, or says to Adam and Eve, or he says that he set them to cultivate and dress the earth. Or when he says, when he has created them, that they should go forth and multiply and

Increase and have dominion over everything that he has created. And then when Cain, after he is then found guilty, laments that whoever sees him will slay him, and God

It gives a command that whoever slays Cain by the sword, if I remember right, they also would die by the sword. It's an indication, Luther says, of how God intervened that in the case of Cain, the sword would not be used.

But it indicates that the sword of government already existed. But before the fall, it wasn't necessary that the temporal realm had to operate with a sword. Paul, when he writes to the Romans, he speaks of this.

That the works, not the law, but the works of the law have been written in the hearts of all men. We refer to that often as natural law. I remember maybe Walt remembers this years back when we were writing some articles, he and Matt Konkin and I, a question came up.

In our pamphlet, Right and Wrong, that is, you know, natural law based on the law of Moses. And the answer is no. The law of Moses is based on natural law. And it is the best, clearest, and most beautiful expression of natural law.

So the fact of the matter is that both realms, both governments are occupied by who? Sin corrupt and sin fallen human beings. And we know there's plenty of evidence

Out there, we know, you know, greed, corruption, sexual immorality, all kinds of vices that are visible in our society and in our rulers, our elected officials and servants of the government. And yet, if we go back, remember what Peter said,

That we should obey not only the good, the gentle, but even the froward, right? Because they are still, even though they don't recognize it, understand it, and maybe know it, they're God's tool and they're doing his work. Luther went so far as to say something like this, that he would rather live under a wise Turk

In other words, under a wise Muslim prince than a foolish Christian prince. Why? Because the work of the temporal realm is not to save men's souls, but to create a safe environment

In which we can live and do the work of God's kingdom. So, you know, it's a fair question and it's an understandable question that any one of us might ask, well, yeah, I mean, Luther's writing, you know,

And he died about 250 years before the United States Constitution was written. Is what he's saying relevant anymore? We have rights they never had as a citizen in a democracy.

And, you know, obviously this is not a complete list. It's just a few of our better known rights. But we have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, we have the right to vote, the right to bear arms, and so on and so on. So, rights? That's a good question. The other question is what are our responsibilities?

So first of all, just while this slide is up here yet, I'd share this. One of the offices, we call it the franchise, that we have as citizens in a democracy is the vote. And that means that our elected officials

Have some degree of accountability to us, don't they? Whenever there's an election, we can, as a people, replace them if we so choose. The fact that we don't all agree, that's another story, you know, and we know our elections are often very close.

One of the things that, and that's a great blessing for us, that we have the opportunity to vote, to advocate for change in the laws of our land, and to elect officials that will support and advance our values and interests if we want to or are able. But,

One right that I don't think we have, and I'm not a constitutional lawyer, so maybe somebody will inform me that I'm wrong, but I don't think that we have the right to act as a judge in our own interest.

And actually, Ronald Reagan famously, when he was governor of California, told students rioting at the University of California, Berkeley, that you don't get to choose which laws you obey. So, as citizens of the United States,

We don't get to decide which laws are constitutional, which laws apply to us, and which laws we like to live by. I guess we can decide if we like them or not, but do we not, dear brothers and sisters,

As citizens have to or have a responsibility to live by laws that we don't like. We can't just become a law unto ourselves. Luther, in his time, wrote a letter to peasants

In Germany, who were on the verge of armed rebellion. And it wasn't something that just started. It had been brewing for over 100 years. And the peasants suffered a lot of injustices at the hand of their princes. They had very little leverage.

Nothing like we have. And this often happened with Luther's teaching on this doctrine. It was taken too far, misunderstood or misapplied. And so Luther, when he wrote this admonition to peace,

A reply to the 12 articles of the peasants in Swabia. He spoke first to the princes. He was very sympathetic to the main complaints of the peasants. And he found the princes to be unfair, unjust, and unwise. And he chastised them.

In that letter. But then he wrote to the peasants. He said, the fact that the rulers are wicked and unjust does not excuse disorder and rebellion. The punishing of wickedness is not the responsibility of everyone.

But of the worldly rulers who bear the sword. Thus Paul says in Romans 13.4 and Peter, 1 Peter 3, or 2.14, that rulers are instituted by God for the punishment of the wicked. Then too, there is the natural law of all the world, which says that no one may sit as a judge in his own case or take his own revenge.

It's come to my mind when I've thought about that, that thought, and when I've seen, as you have, what happens when government fails to do its duties. For example, go back, I don't know, was it two summers ago?

In Minneapolis with the riots and the burning and so on. Or what we see now for some years going on at our southern border. The laws are not enforced when government pulls back. What happens? Is it a good thing? Is anarchy good for our society? No, it's not.

Do we want to be contributing to that? Big things have small beginnings, usually. And so one portion of God's word that has come to my mind is 2 Thessalonians 2, verse 3.

When the Apostle Paul writes, Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

So in many of the Greek manuscripts and in many of the newer translations, where it reads in the King James, that man of sin be revealed, it instead reads, the man of lawlessness is revealed. And I think the language in Greek, if I recall correctly, speaks of autonomy, the self-autonomous self.

Man, the man who's not subject to any law in his own life. And I've wondered, and you can think about that, but it seems to me that the enemy of souls would like nothing more than to see anarchy.

To see God's established, ordained government that serves us and all humans destroyed so that evil might run loose.

So when we sent that minister's message out in March of last year, we wrote that we believe that we as individuals and congregations have an obligation to make an honest, good faith effort to abide by the government mandates put in place in our respective states and provinces.

And many of us, certainly me, could rightly be criticized for not having always fulfilled that obligation. Even when

I knew I should. Sometimes I was just too tired of it all. Other times I felt like I guess many of you would have, the pressure of the disapproval of others. And I can say honestly that for me there were times it was hard for me to go to church when I saw many brothers and sisters who chose to

Just simply ignore or felt that they had no obligation to abide by the mandates as much as I disliked them, and we all did. But I think we all understand that there is a difference between acknowledging one's responsibility and

Failing to always meet that responsibility and the position that I have no responsibility. And I am immune from that. Those are two different issues. And I guess that there are none of us who would lay claim to having been perfect in our

Observation and application of these onerous restrictions that we had to live by. Another thing that I wanted to touch on here briefly, and was one of the concerns that we shared, was a kind of rigidity and impatience in applying

The restrictions. And on that score, first of all, I would say Luther sometimes would refer to what I think is a well-known proverb, and that is, necessity knows no law. What does that mean?

A good example is found in Holy Scriptures when Jesus and his disciples walked through the fields on the Sabbath day and his disciples with unwashed hands plucked heads of grain and ate them. And he was and his disciples were criticized for doing so and not

Observing the traditions of the fathers. And Jesus said to them, have you never read what David did when he had meat and was hungry? He and they that were with him. How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest and did eat the showbread.

Which is not lawful to eat but for the priests and gave also to them which were with him. And he said unto them, the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath. It wasn't God's intention

That David and his men or any human being should suffer hunger and hardship and not be able to eat. That wasn't the purpose of the law. God has given his law, written the works of the law in men's hearts to protect that which is good and sacred in life.

It's not there to make life difficult. And so sometimes questions would come up during the pandemic about, is it okay to do this? Is it okay to do that? And, you know, there are rules and we also speak of exceptions to rules.

And there are exceptions that are allowed when there is a real, true, and legitimate need. And I don't know about in other states, and I didn't keep up always on the restrictions, but in the readings that I did make of them, I think that the government here at least

Recognized and acknowledged that there are exceptions. There are situations and circumstances where people, because of, for example, health issues, would not have to wear masks, for example. And so I think that in that way, government also was trying to apply this kind of a principle

Our responsibilities as Christians, as citizens of this world, this broken world. Well, scriptures tell us that we ought to pray for our government and leaders and the good of our land. Jeremiah wrote to his fellow Jews who were far away in Babylon.

Captives. He said, and seek the peace of the city, whether I have caused you to be carried away, captives. And pray unto the Lord for it, for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.

And Paul, for example, wrote to Timothy, I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men. We should also be examples. Shine is the light to the world. Jesus said in Matthew, you are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick.

And giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven. So both as individuals and collectively as the city of God, we want to shine. But then we also have the responsibility to reprove the world of sin.

Jesus, speaking of the Holy Spirit, said, when he has come, you will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment. And Jesus, again in Matthew, said, ye are the salt of the earth, but if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is henceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and be trodden on the foot of men.

And sometimes we shine that light and we salt the earth by disobeying government. In those cases when government requires us to violate God's moral law, as did the Hebrew midwives in Egypt,

And as Daniel and his friends did in order to worship false gods, or were forbidden to worship and pray to God, or as the apostles did when they were brought before the Sanhedrin and beaten, in order to cease from preaching the gospel,

And then Peter said, and the other apostles, we ought to obey God rather than men. It's good of us also to know the manner in which they confessed their faith. It was with respect and reverence for the servants of the civil realm.

As hard as it must have been to do. So there are those kinds of cases. And the day may come, dear brothers and sisters, when our government, like some governments in this world, will command us to abort our children.

Or will forbid us to fulfill God's command to multiply and replenish the earth and then abort our children or other such things. Those are the kinds of things in which, for conscience sake, we will have no choice but to disobey.

So I went longer than I should have, but there is a little time to visit. And I will share this. I always struggle, of course, like we all do with, I guess, presentations.

But I think I have rarely struggled as much as I have with this one. I couldn't seem to find a head or a tail to grab hold of a place to begin. And of course, my flesh is weak in that too, that I don't like to speak that which may

Some may find upsetting and annoying and whatever. And so, in approaching this task, I feared when I was given the task that, one, I have known a little about the doctrine of the two realms.

But I'm quite afraid that I know very little, and the water is too deep for me. And so I have struggled a lot this assignment. My sin, corruption, and doubts. I would like to ask if I still believe my sins.

I want to be with you. Okay. I don't know who's coming, Lauren or Mike, but...

Thank you, John, for tackling this presentation. It was, I think, good and needed for this time. So I'll open the floor up if anyone has thoughts. We do have 20 minutes before our scheduled lunchtime. Got a tablet or a paper here with some

Writing utensils available, and I'll record your names or your locations. I probably don't know them all. Who would like to be first? There's a hand back here. And if you could just state your name and your congregation, that would be helpful. Trent Simonson from Saskatoon.

I thought maybe if I go early, I know what happens late is it winds up a long lineup and I'm no good in the lineup. So I guess I wasn't aware of this presentation, where it was going when it started, what John gave. I guess I have to begrudgingly admit that I agree with him.

I'm not a very big guy, but it's a tough drag for me to get across that line, but he's most certainly right. Maybe I speak for a lot of others, but for me, it's been a tough run, and I do want to be obedient. But then on the other topic, I want to share

And, you know, the concerns in God's kingdom and the differences, how it feels like there's, you know, surely two spirits. And I'm not, I know I'm not able to help, but I want to share an experience that I had that goes back three years ago. It came back to me because we had a board members workshop here.

And I wound up actually missing the whole evening session I got visiting with one, who I feel wound up on different sides of this thing. And for me, I guess it kind of did something to me that I wound up maybe where I didn't want to be. And I think in my mind I wanted

In order to help, I had to maybe understand where he was coming from. And it just put me, for me anyways, it was where I didn't want to be, and I didn't even see him. And even on the way home, some brothers even said that it was sounding not right, because I didn't hear them. But then, it wasn't even maybe even that long, but, and then in discussion,

All of a sudden I just saw, that's not where I want to be. And it felt, the gospel at that time felt so good. And I was free, and for me, like I said, I'm not able to help, but all I can do is believe. And try to listen to the Spirit. And as much as I would want to help,

The one that I feel is of a different spirit, you know, I'm not able to. And that's, it's just where it is. And I guess I would urge one that maybe, and maybe one would feel, as I felt, moving into that, that you just gotta believe the gospel and put all sin away and move on with the rest.

Thank you. And right behind you is Nate in the back. This is Nate Mackey from Alaska. I'm kind of like Trent. I had some thoughts here. I figured I'd get out before I was too afraid to speak up about it. This presentation, while it's

As in going over the last two years, I'm trying to get it in order here, what my thoughts are, but I've been pretty selfish in the fact that it hasn't affected me as much as it has affected a lot of you brothers. But I willingly disobeyed a lot of men and I disagreed.

And I was very stubborn and prideful and not okay with it and felt like I was just in that. And we had a Bible class recently and it was on, I can't even remember what it was on, but it talked about the story of Abraham. Like the last two years has been a trial for everybody.

And I talked of Abraham's trial and God asked him to go sacrifice his son. And after Bible class, we were talking about COVID and wearing a mask and how much we all disagreed with it. And it was just kind of a line in the sand for some of the guys or whatever. And then we talked about our trial we're having today

How quick would have Abraham traded the trials with us that we have? And it kind of put it into perspective that I feel like Abraham would have just taken the battles that we're fighting right now and traded it instantly for having to be asked to sacrifice his son. And then I thought about what's the lesson for me

With all this, this temporal stumbling block that we've had set in front of us, and I guess it was just the fact of how quickly I was willing to rear my pride over something temporally.

That we don't want to do the same thing spiritually. That it's so easy to agree on everything spiritually. And I was willing to just, I guess, looking at it this way, throw it away over something the government asked us to do. Just for all this, I'd like to hear the gospel.

We have all since heard you in Jesus' name, precious one. One hand over here. All the way over to Huhta. Keep going. I guess my thought I have right now is

This is related to the temporal realm. When John was talking about that, my mind went back to some of the discussions and meetings that had taken place in terms of trying to find some resolution to the spiritual differences.

There was this term being used as there was going to be some sort of mediation that would occur. And in a temporal sense, there's things that we can mediate. We do that in our court systems and whatnot. But when it came to these

I felt that there wasn't a way for us, you know, as humans to mediate differences in doctrine

And to me, there seemed to be this sense of wanting to find this way to reconcile these differences and still be united in some way. And I don't think that's possible. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think if there's a role for a mediator, it would be the Holy Spirit.

And there would only be one understanding at the end. There wouldn't be these two ways to think about these different doctrines. So I don't want to sidetrack the discussion down that road entirely because I think

The issues related to obeying government laws is very important and I think I can agree wholeheartedly with what was presented and have often had to like pull in my own horns and

I think that I know best how we should conduct ourselves as individuals or congregations and try to understand what God's word would teach. And I think for myself, what was used in the presentation

Illustrate what our responsibilities are is right on. And I know we've all had many conversations with many, many people about this topic of how we conduct ourselves, whether we're gonna mask or social distance, all these things, and we've all failed in our responsibility.

And I have to, and I would like to ask to hear the gospel. We have all since been given Jesus' name. Next, Ward Plough. Ward Plough from Longview.

Just Nate kind of sparked a thought in my mind that's kind of run through my mind over time and just trying to corral my thoughts a little bit but I recall we were camping when COVID first when we first kind of started talking about masks and services prior to that we hadn't had services for a stretch and

I was in a place of just wishing we had had online services so just a few people would go to play the organ and sing and the speaker would serve, but the church was empty. I longed for the day when we could attend services and everyone could be together. And then when the masking portion came into play,

My wife corrected me when we were visiting about it just this weekend. Apparently I heard a little bit about it while we were camping through others and it didn't sound very good. But the part that I particularly remember is I got home and I was unpacking the van by myself and my phone just exploded with message after message after message and instantly, as Nate mentioned, my pride welled up.

And when the world is this, like wearing masks to church, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. And so I was unpacking the van, and as I had that time by myself, the thought that came to my mind was, just not too long ago, I wished that I could attend services with other believers. And that, I don't know scripture very well, but the part that came to mind, and I don't know where it's at,

Was the one who was instructed to go wash in the river Jordan. And that river was so small and up beneath him, is the way that I understand it. There wasn't some grandiose requirement in order to merit salvation. His servants said, well wouldn't you, if they had asked you to do something great and mighty, you would have done all you could to do it.

But yet, since it's so simple, now you're going to say it's beneath you. And so then, in my mind, that gave me that peace that, well, forget it. That's how we get to attend services and have fellowship, and that's good enough for me. And it just brought such peace to my mind. Then as we attended services and everybody had their own different struggles, another thought came to my mind as we

I didn't disagree with how frustrating it was, but in thinking of injustice or whatever the term might have come to mind, the thought at some point somehow came to me that just in thinking of Jesus, that Jesus was unjustly hung on the cross, that he was innocent. And in a recent Bible class,

In a recent Bible class, there was that portion where Jesus was praying in the garden, and he prayed even then that, God, if it would be your will, take this burden from me. But nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. So even there was that lesson of obedience, even to that level, which we could never even imagine, of suffering and dying on the cross, unjustly.

But that was what God's will was. So, for us, I think, to me, this presentation brings such clarity to our role, and I am so thankful for it. And that, I think, I hope that we can all, despite whatever our flesh might say, or whatever our pride might cause us to think, that we can hopefully

Find unity in that understanding. It's clear there how God's word instructs us. Okay, next hand right here. Remind me who you are. Jeff Riseman from Alaska.

I want to touch on the spiritual issues that is the main, the topic that was sent out for this meeting. It's been close on my mind, and I have a tough time speaking.

My wife and I are sending our first child confirmation. The first thing I did when we found out which camp he's going to is find out who the directors are and make sure that they, that I talk to somebody who knows them personally, that they believe the same way I do. So I would like to,

And I'm a little bit afraid that this is my flesh speaking here, but these spiritual differences that are among us. We got a lot of youth living in Alaska now from a lot of different areas. And they've spoken up recently that they have seen the differences in these congregations.

And they're not comfortable going to them congregations. And there's youth that are dating and trying to get through their youth and into the responsibility of marriage. And then they find out they don't believe the same. And I don't envy any of the youth that have the temptations that I had as a youth.

So, I don't have any answers like a brother from Canada, so I have lots of fears and lots of doubts. And growing up, we had close family members when I was a child that were in the heresy. I had uncles that I spent a lot of time with.

That were from the heresy. And I had close uncles that were believers. And there's a clear difference spending time with them. I enjoyed my time with the old, but there was a clear difference. I believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name.

We had one more hand and then we'll break for lunch. Is it Peter Ojala on this far left side or your right, I guess? Yeah, on the topic of the two citizens or the two realms,

And the masking issue, I know that it was the topic of many board discussions and congregational discussions in Seattle, and certainly on the hearts and minds of many of us as believers. And having the two realms here certainly helps.

Us as believers get through these issues so that we wouldn't break love over this. And just one sentiment that I wanted to share is that often as believers we may be put in a position that we may not agree with.

And one rule of thumb often could be is that, at least in our temporal world, would be to obey and appeal if you disagree with something. We do have, you know, the responsibilities are listed here in the spiritual realm, but as citizens, too, we do have responsibilities to peacefully

And I don't know if the mask issue is one of those, but certainly there is a responsibility there too. And in the United States, with their different states, their different governors, there are different issues. You can see there's a wide variety of issues.

Viewpoints on that topic. But the key would be that we would peacefully follow the rules, and some of those rules include appealing. And though our flesh is posed to us that we wouldn't want to cowboy around and

And be belligerent against rules. That's not the way of a child of God in my experience. And yet on the masking issue, when we visited as a board, congregation members came, and I have to say that many had, on this topic, I felt heartfelt

Correct reasons why they acted as they did. And the important thing is that this is not something that we want to look down on people if they are wearing a mask or look down on people if they're not wearing a mask, but to help each other in faith. And I know for some, it was their heartfelt song that

That's how it was for them as a child of God that they couldn't do that, wear masks in church. And I don't know how, you know, if somebody, you know, is doing it pridefully, what is a place to take care of that too? And so it's good that we have these topics and can discuss and freely openly discuss the way in the journey.

And in these things, if I've been lax or too watchful, I want to hear the gospel too. Can I believe my many sins forgiven? We have all sins forgiven, Jesus is the only person. And on the topic of the upcoming meetings and the current spiritual concerns, it's my prayer that if people are visiting

About these matters and that we feel we're being falsely accused of something or that when somebody's approaching us that we remember that they're coming in love and may God help us and guide us in these things.

Many prayers. It's nice to be here. Okay, now there are no more hands that I noted anyways, so we'll break for lunch. Just sing the meal song. Why don't we stand and sing the meal song?

Where we have gathered here, thou dost provide our every need. Lord, bless the food we now receive. Amen. President, back to one.

[Hymn sung; lyrics not transcribed]

Peace, everyone. So this afternoon, we're going to continue our discussion from the presentation this morning. Just maybe a couple of thoughts here before we begin or continue our discussion.

In some respects, it kind of feels like we have two topics here that have been presented. One was this spiritual portion that Jim Frantti presented this morning, some of those challenges and struggles there that we have coming up that hopefully, God so willing, we'll continue those discussions. And then also, John presented

The two realms of God's kingdom in regards, maybe in some respects, when we think about that, we've lived this time of the pandemic the last few years, and many of us, if not all of us, struggled with some of those things. And I think that the hope of this

Our presentation was to bring some of these things to light that what does God's Word teach us as believers here on this earth? And I'm sure we all have some thoughts and probably even some opinions that we could share about the temporal matters of the mandates and also gathered here we have

Those from different parts of the United States and maybe there was different sets of rules in each state and maybe even different countries. And so in some respects, I think we could take this presentation and bring it back to our local congregations and visit around these matters there. And I know in Cokato, we hope to have that discussion also.

I do agree with what John presented here, and it was founded and directed with God's word, and that is good. And also, I'm peering down here at his presentation, and I'm not sure, but it seems like he maybe only got halfway through it or so. So,

There's, he has more spots to share and I have a sneaking suspicion that we would maybe ask him and Cokato to come share with us there too. So anyways,

Yeah, so just a couple of thoughts. And of course, I want everybody to be free and visit what's on their hearts and minds here this afternoon. And I don't want to squash anybody's thoughts, but just thought I would mention those couple of things. So I have one. Somebody had sent a message in on the Zoom link there from Pete Lieber, and I'll share his thoughts.

Dear brothers, God's peace. I will make my comments in this form. I marvel at the clarity of the presentation. My heart said amen. It's so true that we have all failed in one way or another with these rules and mandates. God gave very clear answers on how believers have understood government from way back in time. Often comes to my mind of when God's children were taken into captivity and they had no rights at all.

Yet God still preserved them in faith. I also pray that God would awaken the hearts of those in a different spirit and ask, as we all should, where am I? Heavenly Father, show me the way. God's peace, Pete Lieber. And he also asked a question, would this presentation be archived? And I think that could be communicated later.

So we have one name here on the list. Keith Keranen to me up here in the front. And I recognize many of you, but I don't actually know your name. So we'll kind of muddle our way through this together. So Keith Keranen to me in the front.

All right. Hello, everybody. It's Keith. Keith, you're hearing me from . And I'd like to start by saying it's very nice to be here. And I couldn't help but Jim's sort of message, one of the things he said resonated very much with me, just feeling so sinful and weak coming here and so filled with doubts.

First, I'd like to start by asking for that wonderful gospel message. So yes, it's very nice to be here. And I had a lot of thoughts, which I'm sure some who know me, that's not too surprising. But I'm trying to, I tried to organize them in some fashion to make some amount of sense.

But I wanted to start by saying just a simple amen to both the update and the presentation, and thank you, John and Jim, for those. And I think there's some way that we can maybe perhaps connect these two things.

And I'll just throw some of my thoughts out there. So we have this presentation about these two realms. And I think here in this country, we've been blessed in very many ways that they've been fairly separated in a lot of degrees.

And with the pandemic and the things that have happened, they've sort of collided in a real meaningful way for us. And it's been a new territory where we're trying to work our way through it. And I think from that aspect, it's good to have patience with one another.

As we try to figure out, you know, how we handle these things, and I think this, the message, you know, the Holy Spirit and God's Word is very clear on how we want to do this. And one of the things when I think about, well, what are maybe some of the bigger things we learn, or we might learn from this experience, I think of

Of how easy and tempting it is for all of us to apply our own thoughts, man's mind and logic, reason to these sorts of things, to debate this point of the mandate or that, or what's a law, what's a mandate, that sort of thing. But I can't help but think of how often does it help us in our walk of faith to apply man's mind.

It seems to me that things quickly spiral out of control as soon as we do that, as soon as we try to lean on our own. And we're all familiar with the message of man's mind is enmity toward God. And I think that's one of the things that's become clear throughout this whole process. And so thinking about that, then the other side is how do we want to approach these things?

And when we constantly hear the childlike message that's been a message of God's children forever, and it's one of those things that's so simple, but it's so hard to understand and to put into practice. And just keeping faith and trust and obedience, and God will take care of us. And thinking about the standpoint, too, of

Where do we want to be as believers? If we're all trying to get to the center of the flock and praying to God for that, I think a lot of our problems go away. And along with that, how do we go about doing that? I think for myself, I try to remind myself to be still.

To be still and listen to the Good Shepherd. He will lead us and guide us, and a lot of it's we create our own noise. That confounds us and is not a good place for us to be.

And so that is, I think, sort of perhaps the point, at least in my mind, in some of the conversations I've had with people and visits and so forth about how this connects to sort of the larger, or maybe not larger, but the spiritual matters that we got the update on. And I've had the thought that so much of this, the turmoil and the contention and everything comes from neglecting the Holy Spirit.

And in just my own sort of readings and whatnot of some of the past heresies and those kinds of things, I think this is a common thing, neglecting the Holy Spirit, and that manifests itself in many ways. And when we think about that triune of God,

We need all three of those legs, all three of those parts that we think we see. So when we teach Sunday school, we get, sort of paint a picture of the Triune of God as this triangle, an equilateral triangle. And those are the strongest geometric shapes. And if you take away a side, you take away a lot of the strength. And I think we need,

That we need all three, and obviously the three are one, we believe and understand that. But I think by neglecting the Holy Spirit, it's, I think, and that's obviously a broad topic, which I'm sure many here have other thoughts on.

But just that is sort of the crux, in my eyes, as a lot of these issues that arise. And, you know, how do we look at God's congregation? If we're looking at it through our own eyes, you know, man's eyes, the eyes God has gifted us with, we see one thing, and if we look through eyes of faith, we see another thing, right? And so just thinking about that, about how even in these times when

These times of trial and these times of turmoil and chaos, we have to lean on God. We have to trust him. And he tells us over and over and over he's going to take care of us if we do so. So I would encourage all of us and no more than myself, I try to remind myself all the time just to pray to God to remain childlike in faith and he will take care of us.

Thank you, Keith. Todd Anderson. Lars. Yeah. Yeah, I knew that.

It's certainly good to be here today and to hear the presentation, very thorough presentation as we've heard from so many speeches and my heart agreed and said amen with what has been spoken today. My thoughts were kind of along similar lines from that previous comment by Keith.

As how so many of these topics that we have heard, both the spiritual turmoil, then also this presentation, how they are connected. In both ways, we could see how the enemy has come to us and deceived us.

And we may even have ourselves been pulled in both ways, where we see or have lent an ear to those that have battled, but then also we have fought against the government in these matters.

And it's certainly one of those things that we know and understand that there's ditches on both sides that we can get pulled into. One of the thoughts that we had heard this morning was the question that we were asked to reflect on to say, where am I?

And I think that's a question that all of us have probably pondered, probably not only today, but have pondered over the last several years. Where do I want to be? Some time ago when I was doing some reading, I had read

In Proverbs 6, I came across a portion of Scripture that spoke very close to me, and I wanted to share this because I felt it would kind of speak a little bit to both of these topics. In Proverbs 6, verses 16 through 19,

It says that these six things doth the Lord hate, yea, seven are an abomination unto him, a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that diviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies and he that soweth discord among brethren. That portion is very close to when it says that he's six doth the Lord hate. And the one that is sticking out to me is that last rebuke of

He that soweth discord among brethren. Isn't that what we have seen in these recent years, both with the spiritual battles that we've had and also the time during the pandemic? When we have gone one way or the other, when we have been pulled into one ditch or the other,

And we battle against the kingdom. It's easy to sow discord among brethren. And when we see that, that this is what the Lord hates, we can only say that that is sin. When we know

That when we have those false accusations against one another, we also bear false witness. These are matters that pull us out of God's kingdom. And we may not see them, but when we are rebuked, instead,

How is our heart as we've heard? Where am I? When we've been rebuked of our positions, is our heart saying that I want to remain in the center of God's kingdom and I want to hear what the Spirit says unto the churches? And are we able to put that aside and put that away and under the blood of Christ?

Or is it one of those other abominations that is spoken about where it says a proud heart? Do we get a proud heart that I know better than this faulty group of believers here in North American Zion?

In both ways, we can get pulled, and the result is still the same for the enemy. The enemy wins if we get pulled in either direction, if we lose our faith. And I speak these words more to myself than probably to anyone else.

Because I feel my own convictions. And for all of my sins and my many doubts, can I also hear the gospel? Trent Simonson. No? I'm all for two.

I will not take that as an insult. I'm his cousin. Loren Ylioja from Dunblane. Okay, I'm really second guessing why I put my hand up, but I'll have a go at it here. These two topics that we're considering, I've often thought

Over the course of the last two, two and a half years, whatever it is, so often it feels like it's not even necessarily two things, but one is, I'm trying to think how to say this, it terrifies me really the thought of it, but that one is building off the other.

Feels often if rebuke or instruction has been given regarding matters that have come in light of the pandemic, the responses have been one and the same with the responses due to this

This foreign spirit. Considering maybe comments towards what speaker brothers speak that, you know, maybe these brothers are speaking their own opinion. It's not the spirit guiding their sermons.

Suggesting that to follow mandates is losing trust in God. These are things that our minds can so easily contrive when we allow them. None of us are obviously immune to this. So to me, often it is felt that

One is feeding off the other. I also was thinking of this when John talked about the faithful servant. A couple of different thoughts on that. Having been just prior to our pandemic, been asked to serve as the chairman of our board, I may be

Took some things maybe quite personally or something during these times. And I've been afraid to even speak of things to the congregation, to even other members, afraid to rebuke or to speak my mind. And when I consider this, these duties that we were asked to do, we're not doing them of our own abilities.

We're a tool that God is using. Think of it if we're using a saw or something. If it hurts the blade a little bit, we don't stop, we continue. We can sharpen that blade again with gospel. But this is something that I found myself, I've backed away from it. And another thought on that same vein would be this, where

When been asked to do duties in our congregations or in Zion, when certain aspects of these mandates and these rules have gone against our flesh, where we refuse to do those duties because we don't want to, whether it be wear a mask to attend a service, to do a duty, or whatever it might be. I don't want to get caught up on the mask. There's so many different things. But if we allow our flesh and our personal opinions

And I don't think that necessarily pertains to just those who are serving from the pulpit. Other aspects in the congregation too. And I think I had one other thought, but it's escaping me right now. But just now I wonder if I could even have all my sins and my doubts forgiven.

Reino Kuoppala up front here. I had a couple of thoughts. The first one on that mask wearing situation.

I remember Apostle Paul's words when he says, if it offends my brother that I eat meat, I will not eat meat. So if we think of how we keep from offending one another, it's good that we remember those words of Paul.

That we would not try to offend somebody by some foolish thing. When it comes to mask wearing, I don't like masks. I've got one in every jacket pocket. So if I go into a building that needs it, I can put it on. But I am not very fond of them. But the other thought that I had was

Even on that same thing, you know, when we, John had done a lot of study, and he does a lot of study of Scripture, and that's good. But I think it should be done, the studying should be done only after it's firmly in the heart that faith is simple.

And when we think of some of them who are very wise in Scripture, very wise in studying the Scriptures, studying the Bible, studying all those writings of the Old Testament and so on, we think of those scribes and Pharisees.

And we remember how Jesus says when he prays to God, he says, I thank thee, God, that thou has hid these things from the wise and the prudent. So we want to keep the simplicity of faith in our hearts. So we believe upon the merit work of our Lord and Savior, Jesus.

And that in his name and blood, we can own the forgiveness of all of our sins. We can wash our robes, even as those that John sees in a vision in the Isle of Patmos.

When he sees that throng with white robes washed clean in the blood of the Lamb, and he says, who are these? And he is told they are those who came out from great tribulation and washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. That's where we want to be. We want to be there with them, even without a whole lot of

When he said, which is easier to say, thy sins are forgiven thee, or take up thy bed and walk? So he was doing both at the same time. And it didn't take a whole lot of education for them. They believed upon the Lord Jesus, and they knew that he was able to help them.

So when we think of these things, we want to bear in, remember, what is the most important matter? And we've already heard it here mentioned by some of the brothers here that we would keep faith and a good conscience, even as Paul reminds Timothy, that that is the first and foremost important thing. And then on the other, on Jim's presentation,

The thought comes to me, we know that some of these areas that are questionable today, and I don't think they're even questionable, because they have outright admitted that they believe differently than the children of God. They have their own doctrine, they have their own faith, and therefore, according to dictionary definition, it is a heresy. And why are we

Why are we advertising their services in our Christian publication in The Voice of Zion and anywhere else? I think it would be important to take them out of there and that we would not be leading somebody, let's say somebody who's been away from Christianity for quite a while

And they get an awakened conscience. They want to hear services. And they happen to pick up a voice of Zion. And, oh, yeah, there's services over there in Minneapolis, or there's services in Wolf Lake. Oh, we remember those places. We're going to go over there and listen to the Word of God. Are they hearing the Word of God, or are they hearing something else? So I think this is a dangerous place.

A dangerous situation. And as I understand it, it would take the delegates to get together and recommend to the board, to the LLC board, to remove those. If that's the case, we've got a lot of delegates here who can take action on that as needed. But other than that, I find myself to be unworthy and poor.

And well, first of all, I also want to relay greetings from Brainerd. We know that some in Brainerd are following on the electronic communications on Zoom or whatever it's being transcribed on. But others also want to send greetings.

And so I want to bring their greetings here and want to ask that everyone would remember the small congregation there in Brainerd. But myself, I'm feeling my own unworthiness and my poorness. Can I hear that? Can I hear that gospel? And can I believe my sins and thoughts forgiven this morning? John, right up front here next to Darren Hendrickson.

I'm Jerry [Warwaruk] from Outlook Saskatchewan. Greetings from up there on the prairies. I want to thank John for that presentation. It really spoke clearly to me about the difference, not even the difference, but the togetherness and the purpose of the two realms that God has

I was thinking about our responsibilities that are on the board up in front of us. The one is that we would pray for our governments and our leaders and for the good of our land. I've thought of that prayer, and I think many times when we say that prayer, I think probably we can

Possibly even wrongly pray in this way that it would be led as I would feel that it should be led. I think of the divisions in our societies. There's a lot of conflict and tension and unrest out there. I thought in this way that wouldn't it be good if this temporal realm could be

Our leaders could find a way to lead and to bring a time of peace so that these next two lines, the light that would shine into the world and that the world would be reproved of sin, that there'd be yet a time of work. And it kind of cleared things up in that presentation about where our

Our focus or our worries need to be. I was thinking of the time that Jesus traveled on this world, in this earth. I think many of those Jewish people of that time, probably in that first prayer, had the prayer that God would restore their temporal kingdom. And how, like, it's just,

It sort of seems like a nice picture of how when Jesus came to this world, he so separated that, that that wasn't the purpose for the second realm. That the second realm was that the world could be reproved of sin, that there'd be a place of true peace in this world. And I would even warn in this way that it's such a place of danger to get too...

We're caught up or tied into that worrying about our temporal lands and how God guides them. We pray that he would guide them in a good way, but let us trust in this, that in God's time and in his will, things will happen according to his plan.

I had another thought too, but it's kind of slipping out of my mind, so that's all I have for now. Okay, I don't have any other names on the list. Maybe somebody's pointing somewhere. Oh, Ronnie Simonson.

It's been good to be here this morning and this afternoon. When I first came into this gathering this morning, the thought came into my mind that we have been concerned so much over recent years about

Differences within God's kingdom. But when I looked around this morning, I thought, wow. We had, I think, maybe 14 ministers after the last heresy. And now, when I looked around this group, how many were here in

I don't remember what the numbers were, but in addition to that, there were a number of ministers who were listening online, and I thought, God is very, very good to us. He takes care of his kingdom in his way, and he calls

Those who are true to him, who want to serve him as poor ministers in his kingdom. I thought how fortunate we are that God has so blessed us

That there are many, many here, many who are listening here, who desire to be children of God, who desire to speak his word as his spirit prompts them

And how fortunate we are to be members of this kingdom. So many times I forget to thank God for his goodness and for his grace and that I can be a child in his kingdom. And I ask also for my own self that can I believe my sins forgiven

[I believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood.] Bruce Wuollet over on this side. Bruce Wuollet from Phoenix. And first I'd like to bring those greetings from the desert. It's with great joy that I share that currently our board and our speakers are united.

And we're at peace. And at the same time, we're troubled over those that are currently in our congregation and across Zion who are battling God's kingdom. And from what I've heard from these letters and I've heard from these speeches and from these meetings, that there's, at this point, a call for repentance. That if there are those that are battling God's kingdom, they may feel as Saul did before he, Saul of Tarsus, before he

It became Paul that he was doing what was right within his government, within his world, but yet when he was called to repentance, he realized that he was battling God's kingdom. And it's very important for us at this time to, as asked, where do we stand? And I feel comforted to adhere with the presentations and the speeches that I say amen. I'm in unity with those who have spoken.

But I do know there are some present who are not in unity and who continue this battle against the kingdom of God. And it's a very dangerous place that many of you have found yourself outside of God's kingdom and that it is a call for repentance. God's kingdom and his purity is not divided. It's only divided once we put man and his flesh

And the wiles of Satan and then sin. So the only way to have unity is for those that have fallen away to repent of those sins and simply believe. As complex as humans as we make it, the way to believe is not complicated. But yet our minds make it that way. And I often think that it's above the shoulders where we have the problem.

Because our mind is of the flesh and is contrary to the word of God. And then I'd also like to thank John for putting that presentation together. When I came here, when I seen the topic, I thought, oh, where is this gonna go? And me and my patients, but yet as I sat and listened, all I can say is amen. This is what I needed to hear. That sometimes we as humans wear this rebellion,

Of going against what the government has asked as a badge of honor, like we are somebody special. But yet I look, but that was pride that caused me to be that way in those situations. And we were somewhat removed from some of that in the North Valley of Phoenix, where we didn't have a lot of restrictions. But yet I've flown quite often and there's, I resisted heavily of the wearing of the mask and the other behaviors.

After hearing that presentation, I've seen it in a new light and I'm very glad that I'm here. So again, I would encourage those that are battling to find your way and ask yourself where you are and to repent of a wrong spirit. And as I came here with so many doubts and lackings and

Somewhat a rebel during the pandemic and a little bit troubled by some of my behaviors and I'd like to have all my sins and doubts forgiven. Can you bless me? My desire is to remain here in God's kingdom and if I do waver, please rebuke me and correct me where I am wrong. Up front here, Alan.

Dear brother, repentance is a change of heart. When the heart is changed, gospel can be preached and received and sins are washed away. We can begin again anew. That's the simplicity of the endeavor of a child of God.

Have any special privilege when we're called to serve God's kingdom. In fact, we need to even more readily be convicted in our hearts and put sin away as we find ourselves convicted by it. I was happy to see the approach that

John took in that introduction. It made me think even sitting here that we're here in the temporal realm. This building is part of that. The benches that support our weight are part of that. And the comforts and the lunch that we had, it's all part of that. And we are thankful for

So much of that protection that is here that we are able to experience the food safety guidelines. There isn't a lineup at the bathroom right now. All of that that we take for granted that are there. When this facility was being repurposed for a church from a clubhouse

There were requirements that were needed to make it up to code and we don't question those kind of things. But then when it comes a little too close, we find ourselves giving ourselves permission to question everything. It's just the way it is, but it's good that we can

Even as Keith mentioned in his speech that we would just be, that we would slow down or be still and that we would allow ourselves to even hear the voice of the Spirit as it speaks to us and speaks in God's congregation. And I do share somewhat of

Lauren's comments too, and with that thought that these two things are related in a way that there is a boldness that invades us when we allow ourselves to have special understanding that's different from what God's Spirit teaches, whatever the issue is.

That in all of these things, we need to remain childlike in our endeavor of faith. And that I, even Trent's comments at the beginning, I so joined with that because I've had so many similar thoughts here that how dangerous it is right now for someone who would have aspirations of going to, on their own to,

Try and correct those situations and care for those who have battled God's kingdom. We have to allow God's spirit to open these matters, that God will open it where he will. And that when the gospel is preached, that forgiveness is proclaimed and all sins are washed away. I find myself to have

No understanding and I'm timid to even say anything because it exposes my own weakness and my own lackings. Can't even in such one as I still believe my sins. I don't believe all sins given in Jesus' name, you precious. Neil Waaraniemi.

I'm happy that both these presentations were kept this morning. And I've thought for some time that it'd be good for all of our congregations to discuss

In the light of God's word and care for those matters that have caused love to be broken. Also, I would like to say that God's kingdom is calling

To those who have seen things contrary to the congregation of God, it is important that you would hear the call of God's kingdom when in love the brothers and sisters

A rebuking of sin and false spirit because it is this way. We don't know if God later on will offer us the grace to believe. It is not I who decide that I will return

To God's house, but it is only when God opens the door, grants grace to the sinner that one can receive. So heed the call. And sometimes it is so that we may not understand

The differences and have little understanding of the matters, but when God's congregation calls, then we as poor ones, sinful ones, want to understand that God's kingdom is calling and love.

And I want to heed that call and believe my sins are forgiven. Can I hear the gospel? Okay, we don't have any other names on the list, so if you have any thoughts, certainly feel free. Randy Hoppla.

I don't have many thoughts, but I want to say that it's been good for me to be here, and I thank Jim and John for their presentations, and above all, I thank our Heavenly Father. God knows

Our needs. Think of those disciples when they were arguing among themselves who the greatest in the kingdom is. Jesus picked up that little child. May we all

Remain as little children dependent upon the mother. That last verse in that song, 258, comes to my mind in such a precious reminder unto us and reads in this way that

Beloved, we pray the voice of the Spirit you'd always obey and always abide in our little one's place, so warmed by the sun of redemption and grace. Through faith, you'll inherit the land of delight where Christ is the light.

This is where I want to remain, dear brothers and sisters. It's a precious kingdom. Can I have all my sins and doubts forgiven? We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious. Up front again here. I should have remembered your name, but Jerry, I won't forget it. Next time.

I certainly won't hold it against you if you do. Names go through my ear and out the other pretty quick. This other thought that had come to me is through this time of the pandemic and how we can be so much like Peter and the other disciples because we become confused and questions and wonder.

Even pray to God that they keep leading us, keep guiding us, because we need that guidance. Feeling so poor and lacking myself, and even coming here this weekend, I'd want to ask if I can have my sins and doubts forgiven. I believe all sins are forgiven in Jesus' name, precious blood.

But I was thinking about the gentleness of God's call and his word and how it's through patience has allowed me to see and to understand what he wants of us as believers in this time and what it means to try to be obedient to our authorities. And I have thought of the brothers that have

And sisters too and all of God's congregation that that gentle voice has continued to reach out and to call to me as it called to Adam and Eve when they had fallen in the garden. And it always is a gentle and neat call that comes from God's kingdom until we decide to stand up against that call.

And when we do this, as it came up in that presentation when John said, do I really believe this? And if we find it in ourselves that we don't, and that we can't accept that teaching and the gentle call from God's kingdom, it has a way of becoming not so gentle, has a way of becoming sharp. And this is what God's word does,

It offends or it heals. And when we find ourselves in that spot where it's becoming sharp, that it is really time to stop and to ask ourselves, where are we? And as soon as we are able to receive that mind of a child and repentance, then it immediately becomes a soft and gentle message again

Grace flows so freely, that forgiveness of sins. And we, again, believe as little children. Such a dangerous place to go is to start to stand up against the teachings of God's word and his kingdom. Johnny, you can just hand it to your left there. Marty Pylvainen from Elk River.

I'm so glad to hear the presentation John gave this morning. I think it's even been a concern of mine even before the pandemic. Probably especially for my own self that how wrapped up one can get in thinking about the politics of this world

And even how others view it. And even the title of that presentation that God's two realms reminds us so simply that it is God who is in charge.

I think even as this slide even says, as a Christian, as a citizen of the world, and, you know, if we think of ourselves as the citizen of God's kingdom, I think pretty familiar phrases to us. But I thought this God's two realms probably described it better, even though

Because in some ways, I think when we think of this citizen of the world, we think we have something to do with it. And then we put it in that one bucket, and then the citizen of God's kingdom goes in his bucket. But they're both gods. So that's a good reminder to us. But there, as I said, is great danger in

Getting wrapped up in the things of this world is a good friend. I heard one say we're all entitled to our own wrong opinions. So we can take that, that we don't really know anything anyway. So it's simply a good place to be in God's kingdom.

But then I also often think about this call to repentance. In my own life, when I was asked that question, that why did you leave God's kingdom, I had to answer, because of sin. And at that time,

That evening, God opened that thought to me that if that questionnaire leaves my home, would God ever visit again?

So when that call to repentance comes, let it be all of our prayers that God would give those hearts to hear and realize their condition. And I also

I ask today, can I plead my many sins and doubts for you? I believe all sins are given in Jesus' name, precious one. We've got Ward Plough. I was glad Jerry took another turn ahead of me. Some other thoughts crossed my mind. One thought that came to my mind as Jerry was speaking and then used the word sharp

Just recently in Bible class we've been using that Keoni Silas book on the study of the book of Hebrews. And one of the sections it talks about God's word and how it's sharper than any two-edged sword. And in some of the description there there's a lot more, it's pretty deep, has a lot more understanding

I certainly have but in one of the ways he described it is he talked about the word being sharper than any two-edged sword but then he also was explaining about the mercy seat and one of the paragraphs just mentioned that the word is sharper than any two-edged sword but it doesn't then Jesus doesn't leave us in our wounded and in our wounded condition but guides us to that mercy seat where we can be healed with the power of the gospel.

And it's just such a precious reminder that when we, as Jerry mentioned, that it can be painful to be cared for, but oh, when we can hear that precious gospel and believe it, forgive it, that the pain is erased and joy replaces it. Now, as I've thought for a long time, there's a song in

Here and I wasn't remembering what song it was, but thanks to Auntie's smartphone, I was able to search it out and find it. It was even more applicable than I was remembering, and I won't read the entire song because it's nine verses, but I would encourage you to look at song number 409. It really speaks to our discussion today that

Yea, as I live, the Father says, I would not have the sinner's death, but that he turn from error's way, repent, and put his sin away. And therefore Jesus gave command to go forth and preach in every land. Two contrite hearts forgive their sin, or Satan's strength my work will win. So we have those precious reminders that God is still stronger than the devil, but in that

Sixth verse, it also speaks again. And flesh shall never understand that God such power gave to man. The lowly servant Christ has sent is but his humble instrument. And even as we've heard today that not only do we have servants in God's kingdom, but we also have servants in this temporal realm. And they're all God's humble instruments. And certainly,

Those in the temporal realm, we may struggle to see their humility, but they are no less God's instruments. And I think that's the clarity that was important for me to hear today is that those have been placed there by God also, and that who am I to question God's will, His purpose. So I think that, but even again,

These, for me, songs have always been a precious source of comfort. It's so comforting as we, even when we sing, not even at services, but we're just singing, that there are those words that remind us and encourage us.

It was mentioned that sin is what separates, and all these trials and difficulties that we have are spiritual battles. Sin is the source of the separation. The devil is working diligently to continue separating. I also would like to hear my sins forgiven. Can you all bless me? I believe all sins are forgiven in Jesus' name, Precious Blood. Steve Cullinan.

I don't know if there's... I think their zones are tuned in through Zoom. If they want to send the link back here, if they want to speak in turn, we could probably get you on the list. I don't know that we've mentioned that yet, but... Go ahead, Steve. Steve Cullinan, Monticello congregation. Here we sit this day in God's kingdom, in the love and truth and forgiveness of such a

A place in this world that man cannot comprehend, but to feel the unity of the Spirit, feel the teaching voice of the Good Shepherd. And even if I first think about John's presentation, when we look at the Word of God and how it opens through the Holy Spirit, where else can we find ourself except

To have a desire in our heart to be obedient to God's word if we desire to get to heaven. And that way is open before us through the blood drops of Christ which have been shed so much even this day for each one of us will never attain that goal if we wouldn't hold on to

That hand which God has extended to us to help us, to care for us, to teach us. Man cannot ignore even these parts of the Bible that have been referenced in that presentation about how we will be living here in this life. But I wish to go even a little bit here back to the opening presentation that Jim here did this morning in regards to the

Spiritual battles that have been taking place in God's kingdom over a number of years. And the loving call for repentance for those who have become shipwrecked from faith because of a different spirit, because they do not hear this loving voice of the Good Shepherd even today. But yet our

The deepest or biggest prayer, I think, is that they could find and hear this calling voice that has called again and again to come unto repentance. It is a voice of love. It is a call from the Good Shepherd. And I have thought here sitting this afternoon of Saul from the Old Testament, who at one time was known

To be little in thine sight. And he was given many duties, but then he began to grow of himself. Perhaps the mind became rampant. Knowledge and wisdom made him think he was just a head taller than the rest and could do that which he wished to do. And so when Samuel spoke to him, he had excuses for where he was.

He had defense for his own position. He could defend that which he had done and even to the point of blaming it on others. And Samuel said to him, hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifice as in obeying the voice of the Lord. Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice.

To hear that voice of the Good Shepherd calling. And it says, and to hearken than the fat of rams. It continues and it says that rebellion is a sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is iniquity and idolatry. The flesh can rebel against the voice of God. Stubbornness as the flesh that man carries that can be so slow to repentance.

But how God so lovingly calls to come unto repentance. And what happened to Saul? It says he then was rejected from being a king, from his position. But furthermore, it says that Samuel turned about to go away and he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle and it rent. And Samuel said unto him, the Lord hath rent.

The kingdom of Israel from thee this day. When there is a false spirit in the heart of man, what hope is there? It is not a hope of heaven, but how God's love calls so openly offering such grace that is nowhere else in this world.

But the blood of Christ that can cleanse and free a heart that is shackled and bound in sin. This love is a loving call. It is not a call of rejection, but it is a loving call to take care of matters while it is yet today. It is so dangerous to travel with sin and a false spirit without hope of everlasting life.

I very timidly decided I should bring this out as my thoughts that I have here today, but as I think you, dear brothers, we need to help one another. Many times I have that prayer that you would come and help me. When doubts can so often assail, it can feel that where am I? But may God help me.

And help each one of us all the way to heaven. But I also would ask if you can forgive me for my many sins and my doubts. I believe all sins are given to you in Jesus' name, precious one. Tanner Collette, in the back right side.

See if I can get my racing heart and mind to settle down and get some thoughts out here. I recently had the opportunity to visit with a dear brother who was struggling mightily with trying to understand

Why we wouldn't serve Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations. And it caused him great anguish. And he felt like he was not allowed to simply not understand, but he felt like he was forced to condemn those congregations and to choose between his friends in those congregations and his friends in the rest of Zion.

And throughout this conversation, he stated that he had not given up his faith. He still believed, but he could not understand why those believers around him were so adamant that he

That he tried to understand me and he tried to accept the decisions that had been made through the Holy Spirit. And I felt as though his mind was entering a place that is all too familiar to me. When we are approached in loving rebuke, our first thought is,

To justify our actions and to defend ourselves, it's our nature. We begin to look at those dear escorts that are trying to help us and to find fault in them to justify our own actions and our own thoughts. And if we look at our fellow man with this kind of heart, we will find those faults. We will find something to justify ourselves in our own minds.

And I have felt this type of mind leads very quickly to bitterness. And I fear that many have this kind of heart towards the LLC, towards the believers in North American Zion today, that they may not understand completely

The issues, instead of trying to accept the teaching and the instruction of the congregation through the Holy Spirit, that they instead turn to looking at the fleshly portion of those dear friends and escorts in the congregation and in Zion.

And I have been in this position myself and it is not a good place. But when we begin to discuss with those who are like-minded and to speak of those who we are angry and bitter against, it certainly satisfies our flesh. And we can discuss and feel in our fleshly portion that we are justified and we are correct.

And our flesh is at peace, but our souls are not at peace. And it has been for myself, when this has happened, that it has been the more people I speak with and justify my own actions, that the more difficult it becomes for me to humble myself and seek repentance. And I fear that this is kind of the point that we've come to where there's been so much false accusation

Bearing false witness, even slander, that those who may even still want to believe will find it very difficult to repent. And I've heard this too, that what is there to repent from? And I do not have any answers in this matter. But I do know that when bitterness enters the heart, that that is a sin, and that is something that we would need to repent from, and that I have needed to repent from.

And I just pray that if there are those hearts that even here today, that the voice of the Good Shepherd could be heard. And even as your brother Steve just related that story from Samuel, that rebellion is sin unto God. And we could

Try and put those feelings of bitterness and that sin of bitterness away. Hear that gospel and then try to discuss the matters at hand. I've experienced this so personally when I have had bitter thoughts in my heart that I have towards a certain individual or at one point it was a group of individuals that

I tried for so long to justify my own actions, and I could feel that peace in my flesh, and finally I was miraculously given strength to speak to those individuals and hear the gospel. And it was miraculous how instantly all those negative, terrible thoughts I'd had about them, even wishing, previously during my time of bitterness, I'd wished even that they would

That they would snap or they would give me some reason to be justified in my anger towards them. That they would lash out. I even tried to get them to lash out by angering them. But we heard a few comments ago the gentleness of God's kingdom. And that gentleness of God's kingdom finally made me realize that I was incorrect and I needed to take care of matters.

And when I was finally given the strength to do this, how instantly those thoughts of anger and bitterness vanished, and I saw the beauty of my dear friends and escorts again, and I have those same prayer in my heart that this could happen throughout God's Zion, that those feelings of anger and bitterness could be drowned in the sea of grace, and feeling my own many weaknesses and sins could I hear the gospel.

We have all things forgiven in Jesus' name, precious one. Aaron Anderson is kind of up front here.

Tanner forgot to bring greetings, so I'll bring greetings from the snowy northwest of North Dakota, where there's still quite a few people without power from that last snowstorm that rolled through. But I just have to, my heart says amen to the presentation that was given.

Very timely presentation and very, I guess it's close to my heart because I'm convicted in my own thoughts and actions. And even for this, I need to hear the gospel.

But then when Steve was speaking and mentioned that portion from Deuteronomy, how stubbornness, I'm sorry, from 1 Samuel,

Stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. And then I remembered that portion from John where he says, little children, keep yourselves from idols. And oftentimes we think of those idols of the world and the material goods

Those sorts of idols, but I just thought how interesting it was how in Samuel it talks about stubbornness as idolatry and how our own pride and flesh and stubbornness can be as an idol and can prevent us from

Wanting to listen to the voice of the congregation. And I feel that this last couple years has been, in a sense, a time of preparing God's children, perhaps, for the future.

Because we know that this world continually is getting darker. And so it feels almost like now we are kind of moving away from this sort of a difficult time, but who knows what may lie ahead.

And so it is good to swallow our own pride and our own understandings and to turn ever more towards the instruction of the kingdom of God and what the Spirit says to the churches.

[Keith Keranen] up front. Just a brief comment that popped to my mind. I was thinking about how one thing that I've always kind of marveled at is how much

There's a mixture of sorrow and joy on our journey. And we can think of the easy illustration of how much sorrow we feel over our sins and then how much joy we feel when we get those matters taken care of. But I was thinking about this when the comment had come up about heresy and kind of the whole conversation.

And I think this is another aspect that's clearly illustrated for us how we need to trust God. We need to understand that. Because we understand people who fall into the heresy. They're not pushed out. It's not the decision of man making these things. It's unforgiven sin. And God, through His Spirit, is the one who does that sort of judging.

But when the conversation comes up about heresy, it's scary, right? And we have all sorts of attachments with people and there's a lot of sorrow attached to it. And we do hear a lot of conversation, I think, and reminders about how heresies, you know, sort of that cutting aspect of God's word that takes care of those people. But I think it's also important that we don't forget that heresies protect God's children too.

It's a way where he shows his love and care for us. And so when it gets to that sort of standpoint, it's as hard as it may be to say, it's a good thing for God's kingdom. And that's why they take place. And it's told to us in scripture that they have to take place.

And I think we can take great comfort that God takes care of us. And as far as decisions about how it takes place, to also place that trust and faith in God that he leads and guides in that regard. It's not up to us or whoever would be in those sorts of positions. John, two seats behind Steve Cullinan, and I'm sorry I don't know his name. Mark?

Mark Hendrickson from Longview. I thought I'd raise my hand because last meeting we had here, it was cut short and I didn't get to speak, but I was hoping that Loren Hillukka would have saved that list so I didn't have to raise my hand.

But he probably threw it. But anyway, I was thinking of this pandemic. I didn't want to go there. But when someone mentioned about the states, the different views, and I could think of, I could go down the states like, you know,

Florida, Arizona, Minnesota, Washington. You get to Washington, that's why services were changed, and because we didn't know what could happen next. But I'll put that aside for now, but I was thinking of these spiritual topics.

I think back during the last heresy. Wolf Lake, I grew up in Wolf Lake. I think about what's happening now. It saddens me. I think it's important for

Even the ones that are struggling to take heed to the call. I was thinking one time, years ago, I'll tell you the situation. One beautiful Sunday morning, the sun was shining and I put my slippers on

Then I noticed that I went for a little walk. The grass had dew on it, but I kept walking and I got to the hill beyond her house. I sat there or stood there and watched the beautiful sunrise. Then I decided to go

There's a steep hill behind our house, and I thought, maybe I'll just take the shortcut. I knew it was slippery, so I decided to go down the hill. I inched my way down the hill, and I got about halfway, and I slipped and fell.

I went in the house and I thought of these spiritual issues. How one can go down a different path and slip and fall by the wayside. In God's kingdom, we walk hand in hand

Some over the years, some fall by the wayside. I thought of these issues even today where one can go ahead of God's kingdom and think that they have the correct understanding

So strong in their ways that they know the scriptures. And God's kingdom is calling. Don't go too far ahead. Might take the wrong road. But here we are today.

I have to say it's good to be here, but for my many doubts and sins, can I hear that gospel? I can't believe all sins forgiven. Okay, next, we got Keith Moll in the back, and there's a 50-50 chance I could be right or wrong on that one. And he's my first cousin, so Jerry, don't feel bad. Keith Moll from Monticello.

I don't know why this portion of scripture, I read it a few weeks ago and it stayed with me and stayed with me. And it's a portion from Isaiah 29, the seventh and eighth verses. And it speaks of battling against God's kingdom. I thought I would read these two verses.

And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision. It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and behold, he eateth.

I thought of this

Picture that's given in scripture of one who is hungry or thirsty and though they would wish to have that

Food and water, but when they battle against God's kingdom, it's explained as one who dreams that they are fed and watered, but yet they remain empty. And that instruction, I guess, came to mind of that warning that we wouldn't

With our own understanding and our own pride or sin, when sin is on the conscience, we can rise up against God and God's kingdom. We can battle against the Holy Spirit. It's close to our flesh, but it profits us nothing. We are left

Empty. We need to remain as a humble child in God's kingdom and under the care and instruction of God's kingdom and our brothers and sisters in faith and remain humbly receiving and then we are fed and nourished. And the end of this same chapter speaks of

Those who are able to see the work of God and the children of God, that they would be able to then fear God, the God of Israel, and that those who have erred in spirit would then come to understanding.

They who have murmured or fought against God's kingdom shall receive an instruction. And this portion, I guess, ties so closely in my mind to these topics of battling against the Holy Spirit and the kingdom of God and finding faults and errors

Amongst God's children and not remaining humble and also that portion of our own flesh that would rise against that which God has instructed in this temporal authority and both leave us empty when we go against the battle. For my own struggles and my own

Just a few benches in front here. Paul Waaraniemi. Paul Waaraniemi from Pelkie. It's been, as others have said, good to be here and appreciated that.

presentation and the update from Jim and the thought has come to me we've all probably had our criticisms of how pandemic and governments have handled it and borders have shut and many things that haven't made much sense to us have happened and yet I think the pandemic has also taught us something

You know we saw young people who were healthy who succumbed to that or know of people in that situation and also very elderly and even compromised people who got COVID and survived it quite ably and many of us have probably had it in varying degrees and

It's, I think, taught us also that we're not in control. Even our governments really aren't in control. These things, none of us have lived at a time when there was another pandemic. I remember my dad talking about the 1918 flu and how he was just a little boy, but he remembered

The Finnish language newspaper that came to their house that normally had one or two obituaries had pages of them during that period. And I think it's important for us to remember what we are, that we're flesh. And that line from one of our songs, Press deeply, Lord,

In my heart, what I am and what thou art. It's important for us to be humble in the face of these things too. And then I was just thinking about what Jim reported and the fact that Minneapolis has invited that they would come and apparently Wolf Lake in some measure has also stated that.

And I for one want to pray to God that those visits would bear fruit and that, as Jim has said, that no one would be lost. And I think even in these things, being

Long suffering and being aware that we don't personally have all the answers and it's not a matter of simply calling a heresy that at some point there'll be that kind of a watershed moment of clarity that will be given and we pray that that is coming and

In the meantime, to trust and endeavor ourselves. I do want to hear the gospel. I believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, precious one. Okay, we have Darren Hendrickson up front here.

I always struggle because it's so nice to listen and trust that those words that others are given are secure for me and my flesh doesn't want to raise my own hand but to share those thoughts that are on my mind and I would like to ask if I could before speaking here of the gospel.

I believe all sins forgive in Jesus' name, precious one. Tanner's comment kind of prompted me that I should share my thoughts, but one text that was on my mind was this Hebrews 12, verse 11, which we have heard often, that now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous but grievous.

Nevertheless, afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. And of course, this does apply so briefly to this topic that John presented in that we don't visit about it to ferret out those

That are troubled by these government things, but rather that we would talk about it even in our congregations so that that instruction would be given and the spirit would speak that there would not be things left from these troubles of the last two years that would remain.

But more than that, I have thought about this fact today that matters of the spiritual trouble of our time and how as Tanner spoke that when matters are cared for under the gospel that what follows is peace and as we understand sometimes understanding but

Most of all follows peace. And to think about how we, as I'm sure most of you understand that, how we feel an urgency from our conscience to put matters away so that they would be clear.

And in this, I am speaking to those that are battling against God's kingdom as well, but the example being, as Jim spoke this morning, that when we even have conflict in our lives with our spouse or with our children, that when we put matters away, that it becomes clear

And I think of myself as a father that there's been, of course, many times where there is something that my children have done and my flesh has risen up so much and I'm frustrated. And sometimes it has been because they are teenagers and they're going somewhere, even sometimes they're going on a trip or something, but it's even that they're going to Haaps and as a father you worry about those kids that they

Would make a mistake when they're driving and you wouldn't see them again. But even more simply, when the children go to sleep, I would feel sometimes that I can't go to sleep with that. Even though that child irritated me so much, so close to bedtime, that I still need to go and speak to them.

And so that urgency is enough to go and say that I need to put my matters away and to talk to that child or to that spouse so that I would have those matters cared for and then as is so often the case that those things don't matter so much afterwards that the gospel makes it clear.

Not necessarily that I understand what was so troubling in that argument with the spouse or what was so hard with raising that child, but the gospel makes it clear that there's another day, that another day that I am believing and we can continue to move forward, that there's where the clarity is. So if you are battling or troubled with God's kingdom,

That you would still want to have that urgency to put matters away. And I do think that there is this now and I tremble to say this because I am just a young man that doesn't understand things so well that there are some that have left the way.

And Marty's speech reminded me of how my wife has spoken, that she spent years among the believers and she repented from the world. But she spent years among the believers and doing things with the believers. And she was led to understand that

There was something there that she wanted. And that one asked her at a visit that, would you want to believe? And the overwhelming thought that she had was that this is my, maybe my only chance. And so if you have fallen away, if you feel that you are that person that is battling against God's kingdom,

That that time is not in the future. That the time to put matters away is now. That the time in the future may not come. And it can be easy to think that we will discuss this more, and I will understand. But rather it is to

Put those matters in that simple place that you have always put them when you were a child. Put the matters away under the gospel. And then when you believe, you will understand. You may not, you probably won't, I could say, understand all of these things. But you would understand where the future and the hope is.

And when there's such a stack of misunderstandings when you've been working against God's kingdom, that they can pile upon one another, that you would not have to worry about sorting that out, and that it would not be a fearful thing to have been wrong, but that you would believe now. Could I again hear the gospel?

We have all since forgiven in Jesus' name, amen. Monty Ryko is next. Good speech, dear brothers and sisters. It's been good to be here, and my heart has rejoiced and said amen to the presentations and to the speeches that have been given.

A thought that came into my mind was triggered by Keith Keranen when you said that the heresies, when they come, protect God's children. And I said, amen. This is how I believe as well. But also, when these things happen,

It is that last act of love that we can do as believers to those that are lost. We have tried for so many years lovingly and we had call to put sin away and repent. Do not battle this mother who wishes to care for you. But if they do not hear, if they do not repent,

What more can we do than show them clearly that you are no longer inside of God's kingdom, that this is where we are. And dear friends there in Minneapolis, that I know how much we would wish to bless you, for you to repent, put that battle away, and put those sins away. We don't know what those sins are,

But one thing we can say is that it is unbelief when you have not believed what the Spirit has spoken in the congregation. If you have not believed that message, you need to put that unbelief away.

It is this kind of a thought that came to mind. Also, it is to protect God's kingdom, and it is that portion of God's word came to mind after the Korah's rebellion in the wilderness. It was the next day after God had opened up the earth. The next day, the congregation was gathered against Moses and Aaron, and they looked toward the tabernacle congregation.

And behold, the cloud covered it, and Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces. And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make atonement for them. For there is wrath gone out from the Lord, the plague is begun.

It is death that spreads then when there is this rebellion that rises up amongst God's kingdom. And the only way to stop that is with the gospel. They took from that grace altar that message to put sin away. And when Aaron took, as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation, behold, the plague was begun among the people. And he put on incense, and he made atonement for the people. And he stood between the dead and the living, and the plague was stayed.

When we are able to put sins away, then that plague of death will not overtake us, and we can believe our sins forgiven. Put sin away, do not put faith away. Do not battle God's kingdom. And I myself, coming here, feeling so weak and doubting, ask, can I believe my sins forgiven? Give all our sins forgiven in Jesus' name, O precious Father. Give Randy Herrala, over here, and then Jon, Bryce, or Lehtola, will be after Randy.

It has been interesting and comforting today for me to listen and hear presentations and to visit about matters of faith and life in God's kingdom with these two topics side by side. This two realms,

Christian as a citizen of the world and also our spiritual times. And I was thinking last fall at the Speakers and Wives Camp at Camp Kippa, we spent a few minutes visiting about this question of our time, the pandemic,

And the different restrictions that we have from the standpoint of speakers. How can we help in our congregations to visit, to preach and speak about these matters openly and freely without getting into the politics and the opinions regarding matters such as vaccines and so on.

So we've certainly experienced these challenging times and I was reflecting back here and listening to our winter time in Florida, perhaps kind of a unique place in many ways where it was very open this past year with respect to restrictions, but yet believers came

From Finland, Sweden, Canada, and different parts of the U.S. And it was very clear when children of God gathered that they came with what they had been living with, what their restrictions were, and that was also in many cases where their comfort level was.

We needed to sensitively approach one another to allow time to be comfortable in a different setting and surrounding and not let this break the love or strain the love between us as children of God.

So I too am thankful that feels we're moving past that and there's something to learn from the future. But as others have spoken, we've been humbly reminded how God is in control. We need to trust in him. And he's the one that has the answers and the reasons. And in spite of the challenging times, we've also seen the blessings.

But as we visited about our spiritual times, I've also been thinking of almost a year ago here, where we gathered in May of last year for the specially called meeting of delegates of our central organization congregations, along with speakers and board members.

As you recall, this is the only time in the history of our present central organization that this kind of a special meeting has been called. And it showed the importance and seriousness of the matters that God moved us to that point to have such a gathering.

And so we were here in many numbers, and many of you here today were here then also, where for two days we visited how are the matters in our congregations and heard presentations of these times.

And I've thought often to how it helped me to hear the discussion, presentation about many of the issues and questions of our times that had been causing turmoil. To hear simply explained how we believe as God's children, and my heart said amen to that in light of God's word.

And then there was also that presentation summary published in the Voice of Zion in June, July issues. And I've gone back to reread that as well. But yet I've thought how that such an important gathering ended in this way, simply acknowledging that there are two groups.

That we are divided. And so now we've gone almost a year further. Another year has almost passed. And in that year, there have been other gatherings. We've had the annual meeting of last year. I know here in Minnesota, we had the annual meeting of Southern Minnesota boards in October, along with that Northern congregations joining.

We had our MDMAC meeting and each time we still have been left with sorrowful speeches and those that have caused concern and discomfort and disunity. And so I've thought that if these who

If we were all in agreement with how the discussion, presentation was made about how we understand these questions of our time, then it seems there wouldn't be any need for battle. Why would we be battling? But if the battle has continued as it has, well, then we must believe differently about those topics and the description of how we believe.

So we have to say that as we've reached this point, we do believe differently. There's a different spirit. And so with sadness, but yet with joy, I'm happy to hear that this call to not further debate has come, but

A call to simply say this is where we are and to encourage unto the grace altar of repentance. And in the couple of these recent speeches, the matter of bitterness has been mentioned. And I was thinking here of the

Hebrews 12, verses 14 and 15. Actually, a heading in my Bible for that portion that says, do not reject God's warning. It says, follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Looking diligently, lest any man fail at the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you and thereby many be defiled. This bitterness, as others have mentioned, can take our faith away. It's a poison that affects how we see everything.

If we have, if bitterness has overtaken us and we don't see things clearly, we don't see things correctly because we see them through a lens of bitterness when this has overtaken us.

I fear that this is where some have gone and yet for myself I feel such a need to battle against becoming bitter in these times of warfare.

As I have visited with brothers and sisters who have needed to distance themselves from those who are battling, it's been with this kind of a heart to preserve faith and not become bitter and not dry up. To me, it's a battle against bitterness. But here it says, lest any root of bitterness bringing up trouble you and thereby many be defiled.

I feel that we have seen those who have become bitter have defiled many because of how they have viewed and spoken of matters. Again, it says, follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

Without peace, without holiness, we can't see our Heavenly Father. We can't see the Grace Kingdom. And it doesn't look beautiful to us as a pillar of ground of truth and a golden candlestick

It says, look diligently, lest any man fail of the grace of God. And so we need to be watchful. And that's why we're speaking of these things as openly and indirectly as we are today. We have to speak diligently, look diligently, so that we don't fail of the grace of God and battle against the root of bitterness, which would spring up and defile

Many. I agree with these recent speeches that have said that those who have battled have not seen what has happened as the work of the Holy Spirit in the congregation. They have not believed that the Holy Spirit has been

has been working and guiding through these recent times of many meetings and discussions. I have to say with sorrow even of brothers who once served as servants of the word, but have been asked to rest in their home congregations who yet have not rested. Maybe not from the pulpit have they served, but yet they have not rested.

This is nothing more than disobedience and not believing that when they have been asked to rest and humble themselves, it has been the work, the voice of the Holy Spirit in the congregation. Oh, I pray that they could see the damage that is done when one continues to walk and speak in this kind of disobedience.

But as I said, bitterness can become so close in these times. We're tired of the strains and the tensions and how nice it would be to see those with whom we once enjoyed unity of faith and embrace them rather than fear seeing them. I ask if I can yet believe all my sins and doubts forget.

We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, amen. So we have Bryce Ojalehto, and then Loren Hillukka will be next. This is Bryce Ojalehto from Alaska. This topic of a citizen of two realms

Reminded me again of how important it is that we would listen to what the Spirit says to the churches and how important the rest of God's Zion is to our individual walk. And for myself, I would have always been led more towards disobedience or to not pay attention and ignore the rules and the mandates.

And I think it's safe to say that visiting with some of my close friends, we would have been in agreement in this, but that when you can listen to what the Spirit says in the congregations as a whole,

Then you're able to see that where you were going astray or how you were beginning to rely on your own thoughts in this and that then the Holy Spirit can correct and show you the proper path. And I don't always understand the direct, yeah, directly understand or I'm not always able to

To think it through in my head, I still build silly arguments in my head even when John was presenting this to us. But I try to just remember to be obedient to what the Spirit is saying and to put those sins away and try to humbly accept what the message that the Spirit is saying in the congregations.

We don't want to only live our spiritual journey here in ourselves or in a small group, but to obey that voice that is spoken in the congregations as a whole, that he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

To humbly try to accept that call of repentance. And rebuke is not easy to hear, and it's also not easy to always give, but it is a form of love. And can I even now hear my sins forgiven? We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name, in Christ Jesus' name. Okay, Loren Hillukka will be next. So we have three other turns after Lauren.

And then we'll be on to our next, the end of our discussion, and we'll ask Jon Bloomquist to close us with his closing comments. This is Loren Hillukka from Elk River. Had many thoughts, but I feel the last speeches spoke to so many of them that the one that got left in my head was more of a

A prayer to those who haven't directly been battling but have been lending an ear to those who have and who have, I would say, been sitting on the fence. And the thought that came was, you know, just getting through Easter time,

One of the texts from one of the past Sundays described how Thomas was not with the other disciples the first time Jesus appeared with them and how he did not believe when they told him what had happened. It is

So important for us when we don't understand that we would still accept what the Spirit has said. And it didn't just start there with Thomas. There are many instances in this Easter story as recorded in the Bible where even those women who found the tomb empty when they ran back to tell the disciples

It says they believed them not or that they were as to them idle tales. It's a place where any one of us can so easily end up when we rely on our own mind or our own experience. I would just pray that you would find that willingness to seek the center of

Of the flock, there where that still small voice is guiding and caring for God's own. We have perhaps felt much of this more closely here in Minnesota.

It has certainly impacted every congregation. And we don't need to be personally involved in this battle to be affected by it. We can pray that we would have the ear to hear what God's Spirit teaches. May He protect each one of us.

And as those many last comments have said, those who have wound up in that place of battling against God's kingdom, we pray you would find that place of repentance, not that you would continue that path of separation.

I also ask, can I have my own doubts and sins forgiven? We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. So we have Keith Waaraniemi joining via Zoom. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Dear brothers and sisters, it's good to

I've been able to partake of the meeting even here at home [health detail omitted]. But I just have to say that my heart rejoices over what we've heard this morning already and this afternoon in the presentations and discussions. God has been with us and has given us much.

And I was thinking in the midst of these struggles and worries and battles, how important it is that we remember to comfort one another. Brothers and sisters, we're on our way to heaven. That's our goal. In spite of the battles that we experience, God is with us and God goes before us and the battle is the Lord's.

Then without taking much time, Jim has already in his opening mentioned, outlined how it seems that God has directed us in these matters and moving forward. And I know that we all have experienced impatience in these things and can even now, but

I really feel like, as Jim mentioned, that the Spirit of God has been working in the discussions that have led to this point and that are leading to an opportunity yet to, if God so wills, to visit with Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. We can worry about too much patience,

Yet I want to trust in God in this. Love and truth have certainly characterized the discussions that have happened in these last several years. And now as we've heard through many speeches, exhortation to repentance has been made. Those who are battling and even those who have in these battles

Fallen into a wrong spirit. My prayer is that God will yet grant the grace of repentance, as some have said, even if one doesn't understand all matters. And I trust that the voice of the Good Shepherd will be heard in those upcoming meetings and the same love and truth that we have

We have heard will also be given by God to those who are sent to bring a message of forgiveness, exhortation unto forgiveness, unto repentance and forgiveness. And as we've heard,

God's kingdom is a kingdom of grace and forgiveness. And I feel like my hope and my prayer is that there are those also who are confused and are wondering, may God open these matters to them and to all who are straying in this time. Let us

Leave all of these things in God's hands. Then with regard to the two realms, I just want to say, as my wife and I have many times discussed in these times, that let us not despair in the midst of what we experience in the world around us. And even in the battles within God's kingdom,

The man of sin, as we heard through John's presentation, or lawlessness, is rearing its head. And these things are to come to pass. Jesus says, when you see these things come to pass, lift up your heads, for your redemption draws nigh. Let us encourage one another and uplift one another, and especially our youth. They need a message of hope.

A message of encouragement to trust in God, that God is with them and is still in his kingdom leading and guiding. And I thought of that same portion that John used in his presentation with the believers there in captivity, how Jeremiah gave a message of hope.

And I'll read a few verses from the 29th chapter of Jeremiah. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon. Build ye houses and dwell in them, and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Take ye wives and beget sons and daughters,

Take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters, that ye may be increased there and not be diminished. And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives. And pray unto the Lord for it, for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace. That kind of message of hope is needed in this time

That we go forward, as some have said already, above all else, looking at our own endeavor of faith and endeavoring to believe ourselves and through the power of grace to get to heaven. We can live in hope and prayer. That's what I've often said when I've spoken about my unbelieving sons, that I can only live in hope and prayer. Let's focus on our goal of faith

Dear brothers and sisters, and as the Finnish poet Niilo Rauhala has reminded us to speak of heaven and that why do we speak so little of heaven even though the shadows of the evening are long. Let us keep focused on the goal of our faith, but in many things sinful and lacking and those things that we've discussed today and

And beyond, may I ask, can I believe my sins forgiven? All sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood. Rick Nevala. As others have said, it's been good to be here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who

Would wonder what the way forward is. If we knew what lies before us, we would be happy and follow after God's will, wouldn't we? As one of the other brothers mentioned that they had some part of the Bible that they've thought about over the last few weeks, I've also had one. And I guess it pictures to me also, not only about

The pandemic situation, but also the struggles in Zion. And it's from the book of Habakkuk, the first chapter, where the prophet was complaining, worrying as he watched what was going on around him. And his complaint is something like this. He says, O Lord, how long shall I cry and thou wilt not hear?

Even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save. Why do you show me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? For spoiling and violence are before me, and there are those that rise up strife and contention. Therefore the law is slack, and judgment doth never go forth. For the wicked doth compass about the righteous, therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

But then the Lord answered him and said, Behold ye among the heathen in regard and wonder marvelously, for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe though it be told you. We don't understand, as one other brother mentioned, we don't understand anything. But even if God would tell us what was going to happen, here it says the Lord says that we wouldn't even believe it even if he told us.

God's ways are so far above our ways and we don't really understand that. Another part of God's word that came to mind too is a picture of a child of God even in the midst of struggle. You perhaps recall the Apostle Paul who left his former ways. He had been living under the

The great teacher Gamaliel, he learned of the law and he was learned. He had learned doctrine. Very wise. Yet God gave him grace to repent. And a remarkable thing happened. If you read in his writings, how he changed dramatically.

He said, I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. We don't need to know anything, dear brothers and sisters, except that knowledge that our sins are forgiven. We don't need to make it any more complicated than that. We can teach our children that. We can preach it to each other. I thought a little bit about the struggles of our day

Well, there are some who don't understand, and sometimes we've said that they're bitter or angry, and perhaps they've replied that they don't have any bitterness. But yet it's a sure thing that they have a surety of their own understanding. And when discussions have come, there is a battle, isn't there? But there's no urgency.

As another brother mentioned, it doesn't seem like there's an urgency to repent. They've felt comfort in their own place. And we also heard about heresy, and isn't that really what it is? That they've left, some have left under that foreign spirit. They've grown comfortable in that. There's no urgency to repent.

In fact, it has been put that way to many of us that preaching repentance and forgiveness of sins is law, especially when preached to a believer. We are, as Luther, we repent each day. We live of the gospel. We are, as we teach each other, we talked about these two realms, that we teach each other how to live.

And Luther also merges these two subjects together, and he says that how do we teach each other to be good Christians? How do we teach each other to be good neighbors to each other? He says when we do that, we bring each other to confession. We take our own away. We live with the gospel.

That's how we've always taught in God's kingdom, and that's how I've always believed and still want to believe. Can I be my sins forgiven? All sins forgiven in Jesus' name, amen. Precious God. Brian Koivisto is next, and then we'll ask John to close our discussion. I have to say it's been good to be here, and before I speak, I'd like to hear that gospel.

All things forgiven in Jesus' name, amen. I was thinking about these, first of all, these spiritual battles we've been facing. I'm in the Phoenix congregation and we've had, we've discussed these matters and we've had the opportunity over the last, or up until the last, six months ago or so, have [Glendale] with us and had joint meetings with them.

I can say, and you brothers that are here from Glendale, please correct me, but it's, I believe, the will of those congregations that a letter that was sent out by the mission, I think it was the mission committee here in Minnesota, those congregations, and a call to repentance is that I say amen with that, and that's the will of

Our congregation is there as well. So I just offer those prayers to your brothers that go and speak there and also those congregations. Even though I don't know many in those congregations, I know they're close to many here and the hope and prayers that none of them would be lost either. So I hope they hear that loving call and can take care of matters. I'd had some

Thoughts over the last couple years like everybody else on the matters surrounding the pandemic and the two realms and I appreciate that presentation because I think it speaks so nicely and brings God's word into this topic. It's easy for me to start going down my own rabbit holes and how I think it should be and my pride to build up and resist against

Things that are being done, but it's probably about a year ago this time that a bunch of happenings in my life caused me to consider what's the most important. Like I just mentioned, to focus on the goal of having the joys of believing. If this is the worst we have to worry about in our time,

Mentioned in the presentation about some of those travelers that are related in the Bible, the persecution and the things they had to face. If this is the worst we have to face, whether or not we wear masks or how we deal with some of these things that we've had to deal with in the last couple of years, I think we should thank God for that. So I guess in closing, I guess I just,

Hope you all will remember me and ask again, can I hear the gospel? We have all sins forgiven in Jesus' name. Amen. John.

It's been rumored that I only got halfway through my slides. The good news is I made it through 13 of 19. And actually a few of them were sort of spares. And I'm... God has and does hear prayers. I won't go through all of them. So I did...

I have some thoughts, but as I've listened to the discussion, even though I'm tempted, for example, to speak about this slide and this one and this one, I'll skip them.

And I'll go to what's really the last slide. Because I think many of the things in those slides I skipped have been covered in some way already. And it's been encouraging to me, who

I have had to learn again that even though God has dull tools to work with, sometimes he's able nonetheless to provide that which I have lacked through the mouths of others. And it's been refreshing to me

To hear, and I think God has blessed our discussion, but it's a discussion that has been moving much like the accounts in the books of the Kings and Chronicles. One step forward on Israel and another then a step forward on Judah as we've

Talked about two things that are important and timely and their own issues and yet also in many ways connected. My thought then to end with this slide which maybe is familiar to many of you.

You can find it on our webpage if you go looking for it. It's our mission statement. And reliance the third bullet point in our mission statement because it seems like it's especially relevant to this topic of the two realms.

To awaken and inspire Christian values and ethics, soberness of mind, love of homeland, and responsible citizenship among the people of our nations. And I would dare to say that of the three points in our mission statement, this one has probably received the least attention.

And as we've heard, the last few years have been trying also because of this pandemic. And I think that we also recognize for many of us, and I would say for our Zion, it has been an evil time. God has

Revealed, I think, many things and taught us many things. And perhaps this last point is something that if God wills,

Some other time we can visit about more and consider our possibilities to also do some work in that arena because I suspect, and I guess many of you would as well, that it also plays a part in the first two bullet points.

And can be put to work in that area as well. I would say that for me, one of the most comforting things about pausing to consider this

The topic of the two realms and what God's Word teaches us about it is the great comfort that it brings. We've heard in some of your speeches, and I know some of you, like me, have had visits with your friends who have shared how during these times they have found themselves

Getting really wrapped up in all of these issues, the talk, thoughts about the government, vaccines, whatever. And they found themselves in dark places, in their rabbit hole, as we often say. And despairing, discouraged, and unhappy.

And what we see, I think so clearly, from the things we have studied today is this, that it's God's world. We just live in it. And everything that he's done, he's done for us, for our care,

And our blessing out of love for us. And so the world is his and the kingdom is his. And when we can remember and believe that, we can believe joyfully and not with a spirit of heaviness.

The other thing I would say, and I can say that for about the last two years, I've been at these meetings and when we've discussed these ongoing spiritual concerns, I've just felt like I don't have anything to say

God hasn't given me anything to say. I've said what I know and understood to say earlier. And it's been encouraging and uplifting to me to hear others speak. And what I have heard

This is not from God's kingdom, a voice of anger or bitterness or manipulation and abuse, but a voice of sincere love and concern. And I know some of you who are here today from

Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. I have known you when you were young boys and girls at camp and confirmation school. My heart aches for you. I remember how preciously some of you believed and how God's kingdom was a beautiful place to you.

I don't know what's happened and why. But when I hear some of your descriptions of it, I don't recognize the place that you speak of. And my heart aches for you. And when I look at

Our mission statement in that work that is identified there, I have to be honest, these struggles in which you have engaged have hindered that work. They've made it hard

It's consumed our energy and our strength and our resources. It feels like we try to do the work with our hands tied and our feet. And it makes us weary.

I don't know God's time. I don't think any of us do. I've sat in meetings with dear brothers with whom I've worked for many years, men whom God has given humble hearts

And good understanding. And I can tell you that if we ever had any understanding, we don't have any now. God has stripped all of us in these times. We don't know the way forward. But we trust that God will show

And he will lead us. And I have thought, as others have, of a place in God's word. When God spoke to his servant Ezekiel in Babylon, he said,

Then the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go shut thyself within thine house. But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them.

And thou shalt not go out among men. And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover, for they are a rebellious house. But when I speak with thee,

I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God. He that heareth, let him hear. And he that refuse, let him refuse. For they are a rebellious house. We have heard mentioned

And numerous speeches today about rebellion. And we know that God will not suffer it indefinitely. And he will not force his children to suffer it indefinitely. His work calls. His work, it's waiting.

We have marveled even during these difficult times and during the pandemic and in our weariness and in our weakness and inability, how God has nonetheless brought the message of the gospel to remote and faraway places. This work continues.

I don't know, as I've said, I don't know what is the way forward and when, but I can tell you how I feel, and I know that others have felt the same, that now it feels that the battle is done. God still calls, but the battle is done.

And we just wait for that time that the captain of the Lord's host leads his army to his work.

Today is still a day of grace. But when God closes the mouth of his children and he ends the day of visitation, he has ended it, not us. And so you have heard today

From so many who care for you and your undying soul, we all hope and pray that God will open to you, who have a word against this congregation, will open these matters to you.

I grant you grace to repent and to believe. I want to say to all of you, dear brothers and sisters, many of whom have already spoken, when you consider your own conduct and words,

During these times of the pandemic, in the light of God's word, recognize and feel that you have been also

Sin corrupt and rebellious, you can yet lift up your heart to believe. In Jesus' name, in blood, all sins. In Jesus' name, in blood, dear brothers and sisters.

In Jesus' name and blood we leave all sins forgiven. We have such a good God. Patience has been spoken of much today. I could say I who have always in my life been such an impatient man

Have you even been amazed at how much patience God has given me sometimes? It's His gift. It sure doesn't come from me. And He has dealt with us so gently and so kindly. And in the light of

The words that I have shared with you today, I have to say, I too have been so faulty and lacking, and I yet believe my many sins and faults are forgiven.

So, we have a bit of a decision to make here. You still have a half hour in you? We missed our break. Our break was for 3.30. If I let you out of here now, I know I won't get you back in 20 minutes, half hour.

Ladies said they could have supper ready for 4.30 instead of 5. If we sang a song, I could try to get through my part of the presentation and release you by 4.30 for supper. You doable? Brothers have sissu, I know that. If someone would choose a song for a transition, what was that?

409. I'll get set up here myself.

In the beginning, we prayed that God would grant His grace according to His will. And again, we humbly say that it's comforting and secure to be in God's kingdom. Part of these board meeting workshops, I'd like to bring the update from the LLC office.

For the board, board members, delegates, so they can bring any newsworthy items back to the congregation, or there may be also things, as we'll discuss later, those things that we can support one another with, with the practical details of serving in our congregations and so on.

So too often we see these things as being, at least I think of myself as redundant, seem like we go over these things so often, but I also recognize that as we grow older, there's always a younger generation coming up behind us and they're the ones that are filling our spots as we move on into the future. So it's good that we can share some of these thoughts from year to year.

I only have a few slides and my promise is we'll get through them. Jim, Brother Jim mentioned in the beginning of the unity that we've experienced in our discussions on the LLC board and staff meetings, we've rejoiced at that. We've also been thankful for that broad unity that has been throughout with our sister organizations

Finland and Sweden in particular. When I was a younger man and those brothers would remind or comment about the unity they felt, they were kind of hollow words, but they're much more meaningful today for me. In this that maybe we've taken the broad unity of spirit for granted, I know I have, but when we haven't,

When we've experienced in recent days how that unity has been splintered, prayers are so fervent to the heart of the Heavenly Father that he would, in his time, in his way, grant peace and unity to return. But we have experienced very broadly in the work of North American Zion and our congregations throughout, or God's kingdom throughout the world, this kind of broad unity.

Just a few points worthy of mentioning, I think. One would be the 2022 summer services. One of the brothers mentioned that from Longview, was it Mark or Hu, had mentioned about the disappointment they felt in Longview not hosting this year. We also experienced similar disappointments. So many of us were looking forward to going out west. Many of us have roots there, lots of memories from there.

But God willing, now Longview will host in 2024. We'll host here at Silver Springs and we're working on plans for that and they're coming together quite nicely. A lot of energy, excitement here in the Midwest to be able to hold services.

In 2021, because of retirements and also additional work forms, we've had some changes in staff. In particular, in 2021, Ruth DeLacy, she joined us at the office. She does a lot of the support work for our communications area. Adeline Moll also was added to the work.

As, I don't know how we would articulate what Adler does, but a little bit of everything. It's been a wonderful addition, and we see with this younger generation how sharp they are, quick they are, very skilled, and so it's very easy to think of moving on when God's kingdom is in such good stead.

Adeline's had an opportunity to kind of break in slowly because her responsibilities would be both in the mission department, also the pastoral area, but also in scheduling and working on summer services.

We haven't had any foreign trips for a few years, so her work in the ad area now is just beginning in earnest. So she's had an opportunity to help us in the office with many things that have needed updating regarding technology and so on. In 2021, you know that there was three new LLC board members added, Randy Hillukka, Lauri Nevala, Marv Wittenberg. And again, we seek God's blessing

Again, allowing these gifts to be added to the work. Seamlessly, they've joined with the board and the staff in serving. This coming year, 2022, at our annual meeting, Pete Lever is retiring from the LLC board, and the Western Region has met and they're

Proposing to bring Roger Plough's name to the annual meeting for the delegate approval. And we were happy to hear that from those meetings out west. And then similarly, Jim Frantti's term is expiring. And if you visit with Jim, you'll be quick to say that, see, I told you, I'm irreplaceable. Because at the annual meeting,

There will be some discussion around reorganizing of the LLC areas. And we've seen the shift from the east westward. And so we're proposing to the delegates to visit in their congregations about reorganizing our areas, which will also in turn then we'll need to adjust the board members' representation from each of those areas.

So when Jim retires, we're not gonna fill his position until that reorganization is completed. So Jim says he's irreplaceable, so that's where that came from. This year, Serena Siljander. Many of you would know Serena, many of you don't. And I don't know,

She's a whirlwind. I don't know how to more clearly describe her. But she has such a one... What's that? A happy whirlwind. Yeah, thanks, John. We could add some more adjectives to that, too. What a dear, dear blessing to the office. I was teasing her, and I offended somebody in our office when they don't know my...

Goofy sense of humor sometimes. And I told Serena that you've made such a mess in the office, now you're leaving. But what she's done is she's been able to produce so much work in such a short amount of time, now there's those of us left there that need to actually do the work that she started. So that's the mess. Not what she's done, but simply that God's given her such a gift to serve.

And a big part of that is the release of the LLC app. I don't know how many of you have downloaded that, but almost 800 are now subscribed members, subscribed users to that app. I don't know, Adrian, it was 788 the other day. I don't know if there's updated numbers from that. The hope was in the first year of use that maybe 300.

But we've seen the need, obviously. God's blessed us with that. And so this has moved on to a very, very nice area of work. And then I'm also planning to retire now in 2022 at the annual meeting. So you can see my fingers are getting thicker

I can't think so clearly as I once did, as if I ever did. It's my hope, and the board has granted me that wish to retire. And our dear brother, Arvin, who served this morning with our devotional, will be taking my place. At this point, I would simply thank each of you for the support, the prayers,

The love that you've shown me and my family. Words cannot describe the blessing that comes with this work, but it's my prayer that now Arvin will be able to experience that which we've also experienced. In addition to that, we've seen this whole area of LLC Shared Pastures evolving.

Brother Jouko is retiring, and Alan has agreed to take his spot. The congregation has also agreed, and the LLC has also agreed to enter into that shared pastor agreement with Rockford. The same kind of benefit and blessing that we received from Phoenix with Eric Mattila there, Duane Pirness in the prairies of Saskatchewan serves also as a shared pastor.

Now we also heard, and the Cokato congregation has contacted us, the LLC office, that it's their hope also now to begin search for a full-time pastor. And they were wondering about the shared opportunity with the LLC. So again, we see, even in the midst of the challenging times that we've discussed today,

God's blessings in so many different ways. The office, the facilities there, we're very thankful for the new office. If there are those of you who haven't been by, swing by. God has certainly blessed that. I don't know what else to say.

The work continues, and one nice blessing to that, not only the facility much nicer, it serves us very, very well, it's bigger, but we're also able to operate at the same or a lesser cost than we did in our previous leased building there in Loretto. So in God's time, he provided us with that facility.

And as I've mentioned already, at the annual meeting, and this will be something for the delegates to pay attention to, if you would, the LLC annual meeting packet was sent out Friday. And if you haven't seen it, it'll be in your inbox. For sure, the board chairman passed it on to the delegates, or however you decide to share that information.

In addition to the regularly scheduled meeting details will be these two points that will need additional discussion in the congregations. One is this LLC area realignment. Not only does it realign the areas, it also changes the board members area where they're coming from, the allotment for each area.

But it also requires a bylaw change. And I remember years ago, I was working for Ken down in Colorado, and he went to see a house about a project, and I think the project was they needed some caulking around a bathtub.

Two years later, the house was like a $2 million project for this caulking that was required in the bathtub. So when we changed, when we do some changes in the work, we bought the new office, we changed the address. So we need to change the address on the bylaws. So this starts a whole series of events. So once we're doing that, we might as well just update the bylaws as a whole.

That updated bylaw document will also be a part of that annual meeting packet. So those will be the two items in addition to the regularly scheduled things that you would please watch for. I guess a third one would be this future of LLC and SRK summer service dates. Currently, there is no collaboration between SRK and LLC. We've always scheduled our summer services around the 4th of July weekend.

A few years ago, SRK called and asked that would it be possible for us to piggyback weekends, SRK and LLC. They started that summer service radio broadcasting in Finland, and there's a real demand for English content.

And so they thought it would be a real nice way that they could use their summer service broadcasting if they could broadcast SRK Suviseurat, and then the following weekend, the LLC summer services. So this was a proposal. We brought that to the annual meeting and we added some additional details to that. So this will also be something that we'll want to address at the LLC annual meeting.

If this is agreeable for the congregations. Just west of here, just a couple hundred paces, the bathhouse has begun, the project there. I don't think we'll have it done in time for summer services, but let's see how quickly Phil can get that done. He always claims he's better than he is,

He's a big guy. You find out with some of these additions in the office, you know, you just don't know a person until you get them in the office and work with them every day. And it's all good, Phil, trust me. His head never shuts off, and neither does his engine. So he's just going, going, going, and going, because you've got to keep feeding him work. Otherwise, he just gets disappointed. And I kind of feel bad for the contractors that he's dealing with.

Dave's one of them, the plumbers. He's always on their phone. When are you going to be there? When are you going to be there? These guys are doing it as volunteer, but somehow they feel compelled to be there as volunteers on this pretty tight schedule. So he'd have a career at some point in project development. So thank you, Phil, for that. But anyway, it started. And then last of all, in recent years,

Because of the challenges with COVID, West Coast was unable to get their own facility for confirmation. So we've readjusted those confirmation schools. And now there's going to be these camps

Three at Camp Kippa, two at Haskip, one at Stony Lake, two at Haskip and Stony Lake, and one at Prairie Shores. This will accommodate us for 2022, but it won't be long, and we're gonna need a couple of additional camps. So, moving those things around. I already mentioned the communication, the LLC app. That's ongoing.

But we're also working on that 50-year anniversary history book of the LLC, AALC LLC. The reading group has had a chance to review a number of the chapters of that. Keith continues to work on it, and we'll have something ready by 2023 summer services, which will be our 50-year anniversary.

And then recently we've updated the LLC website. It's still a work in progress, but if there's anything that you see there that you'd like to recommend for change, please call the office because it's one of those things that's dynamic and always changing. Everybody uses things just a little bit differently and so on. So feel free with suggestions.

Our foreign mission work, as I mentioned, has been primarily canceled for a number of, well, 2021 completely, part of 2020, and now part of 2022. The hope is that later this summer, we'll be able to resume some trips to our foreign destinations. The pastoral department has also worked on these workshops for new ministers, and those new ministers have been able to,

Gather at those workshops, and it's really been beneficial by their own account for the kind of support and resources that our pastoral department has been able to offer them during these workshops. And as I've already mentioned, the blessings that come through these shared pastors. And then just these last additional items, and they're mostly just informational for you boards in particular to consider.

We get from time to time, or even as we heard from Reino today, the question about, you know, the LLCs and the Voice of Zion advertisement for different things, and even this archiving of sermons, how does that happen? It's primarily a local oversight. So we don't from the office monitor local oversight.

Websites or anything like that. So it's up to you folks to monitor. And there have been those situations in probably all of our congregations where a minister has served and thought, you know, that sermon probably shouldn't be archived. So there needs to be that kind of opportunity in the congregations to have free dialogue around those things, just for a number of reasons.

For the sake of the brother that's serving, too often our words are weak and lacking, and there may be those times where it doesn't feel good that one of our sermons would be archived. So it would be best that that takes place there. You'll remember at the annual meeting last year, on the other hand, the delegates requested that the LLC no longer archive the sermons from Minneapolis or Wolf Lake.

So after the annual meeting at the direction of the delegates, we did. We removed those two congregations' archived sermons from our website. Also then, every year the mission department sends out this kind of a survey for ministers. And if you would keep...

With the volatility we've seen in the recent years, not only removing some, but also a number of brothers have been added in the recent years. If you could remember in your administrative part in your congregation to send that new ministry information to the office, it'll help us. We do, as we said, send out yearly this kind of request. So,

Just for our record keeping, it would be good to have that as up to date as we possibly can. It used to be that we knew who was it here that said, Ron, there was 14 ministers at the time of the heresy. There's 118, I don't know, John. So there's been a lot of growth even in that work in our current day.

One other item was this, that there's been time to time a question whether or not the LLC has like a pay scale for ministers to serve at different events. We pay ministers and we send that information out for the sermon, if they're called a day's wages and that sort of thing.

But what they're speaking to primarily is they've requested from the office, and we have really no way of monitoring this, but I know like in Phoenix, I asked Eric Mattila recently if it's still there, but the congregation had asked there that could you post somewhere what a going rate for a baptism, a wedding, a funeral might be so that

The congregation can kind of be put at ease with that. Kind of awkward if the minister themselves had asked that, how much would you charge for a wedding? I don't know. But I told jokingly one day, I told a couple that the way I make my money as a pastor, if you want a short sermon, it costs you a lot of money. If it doesn't matter how long it is, it's free.

Well, when I went to do the wedding, it was in Rockford. They have this tray, and there's a microphone in there. I reached down to grab the microphone for the vows, and I saw these dollar bills lined up in there. So, I lost, I just about lost. I had to really, so it'd be, again, my humor goes overboard too often, and I get in trouble.

But in seriousness, if the congregation can kind of establish a going rate, it puts the minister somewhat at ease if they don't have to determine rates. So we can consider that as a congregation board. Or ask the wife? Can I ask my wife? John?

John says if they have to ask his rates, they can't afford it. Just make a free will offer. But those are just some of the practical details that we hear from time to time from the office. Five minutes over. My apologies. Is there questions or concerns or

Something, something. Okay. Okay, well, I think... Do any of you brothers check back there to make sure that the ladies are ready? Darren's there, or...

I pulled the fill and I walked in there and I told them, when can we have that supper ready? It's not ready. Okay, long song. So that was a real quick and brief, there's a,

The presentation after supper then, I think mostly Adrian and Phil, I think John kind of begged off of that one for this evening, but he'll go over a few of the business items from the mission department, and Phil will have a brief update on facilities. Okay, well, if someone could choose a song, we could sing a song, and then, Darren? Is there a free will offering?

It's a good idea. Is there any collectors here? Who's the Monticello? Nate? Okay, there's a free will. You can put a donation there on the kitchen counter. There's a couple boxes I saw for donations. Anything else?

Okay. 410? Okay. Thank you.

As we begin the session here after supper, there were a text message came from those that were gathered at the Outlook Church. They were wrapping up there, there at the church, and they sent these greetings that there were 18 of them that gathered there at the church today. And this came from Steven [Warwaruk], God bless.

John's presentation and the ensuing discussion. So share those greetings that came from those gathered there in Outlook. So this evening there's a few items yet to just briefly touch on.

I'll handle the first four of them, and then Phil will do the facilities and Silver Springs development. And these first four items are topics that we visit about at the recent minister's camp at Stony Lake Camp. And I'm sure in your congregations you've heard greetings from that camp, from the brothers that were in attendance there, but here I'd like to just again share.

The greetings from that camp. God blessed us with a special time of unity and fellowship there with the brothers as we paused there that weekend. And we talked as we did this morning in our introduction in our discussion this afternoon of the

Continuing spiritual difficulties that we experience and also touched on issues surrounding the pandemic. And I guess I've just been left with this thought and as was kind of mentioned in some of the comments earlier today, how it seems like there is something that even connects in these two items.

I guess what I've thought in this is the enemy, he's what connects because his goal, no matter what the issue, is to break the love and the unity of the believers. It can be around these matters of the spiritual discussions that we've encountered and had these past seven or so years that have been more at the forefront, or it can be even these

What we could call even temporal matters, but if the enemy can use this to break the love between the believers, he's done what his intent is. But warm greetings from that

Ministers Camp and we'll just share briefly here some of the things we talked about just for information for board members and there will be some of these things over the course of the coming months. We'll be doing some more work on the pastoral committee and then follow up with information to the congregations then as needed as well.

We spent some time on the English Bible translations, and we have, for many decades in North American Christianity, recognized that the King James Version has been the official Bible, the Bible that we use. And over the course of more recent

Years, maybe especially in the past decade, there's been requests and suggestions that if we could consider a more contemporary translation to be used for reference and possible uses in the congregation. And the primary reasons for this is that the King James Version, because of the age and translation style, is difficult for many to understand.

And in 2008, this question was then considered by the LLC board. And at that time, when it was discussed, it wasn't felt that we would devote resources at that point to pursue this, but then in 2013,

A Bible translation evaluation committee was formed to begin looking at other translations. And when this first was discussed in 2008, there was a Bible translation statement that was adopted, and this has been updated over the years.

But already at that time, and it's probably similar yet today, but there were 450 full or partial English translations of the Bible available. So in considering this, the committee reviewed the approach taken by the SRK when the Finnish church

Published the 1992 version of the Bible. And from that work that was done by the SRK, there were kind of key portions of the Bible that were noted as areas that when you're looking at a variety of translations, that these would be verses or portions to consider and look at how they are approached.

And then from the work that the committee, they identified two translations for additional review. And these were the ESV, English Standard, and the New International versions.

And then at our minister's camp in April, this was visited about, and we spent some time reviewing some of the portions that were noted from the Bible Translation Evaluation Committee. And prior to that, the ministers in the congregation were asked to do review as well. And currently now,

With the Bible Translation Evaluation Committee, along with the Pastoral Committee, they'll work on this. It will happen then for a proposal of how these additional translations may be used. And this will be then for LLC board consideration.

And I would think something like this would be maybe a matter at some point that we would bring then to an annual meeting for delegates to consider as well. And then another item that was presented there was death notification form. Over the course of years and

In some congregations, this goes back many years, but congregations have adopted the practice of announcing deaths and singing in memory of one who has departed. At this point, that communication happens primarily by word of mouth. Somebody hears, and maybe there's connections in a congregation, and that way the information is shared.

The thought was that if we can, we'll develop a form that can be completed, and then a completed form can be sent to all the congregations so they have the necessary information. So we've worked on developing a form. There's a minister's resources area on the LLC website. The form will be linked there.

Information can be submitted often. It may be the minister, the brother who's asked to serve at a funeral would have probably ready the information. He could fill out this form and then submit it and then it can be sent either directly by submitting it or we'll get it at the office and can forward it on to the congregations.

Along with this, we're working on some maybe sample announcements of how this information on the form can then be worked into an announcement in the congregation and guidelines for use of this. And then hopefully this will help and assist. We're not in any way

Suggesting that congregations would approach this differently than they had. Still there's the vocal practice with this item and congregations have established the approach that feels like it works best in their situation. So hopefully this information can just serve that as it happens and is done in the congregations. A

A couple years ago, or is it maybe three years ago now, there came a request from the delegates to the annual meeting if we would consider the topic of adding the reciting of the creed to our communion service. And John visited primarily with Geo Nisila in Finland and then others, but

When the Finnish church was developing or revising its church liturgy or form of worship service, Gail was involved in this work and he needed to study this closely. So John connected with him and then we visited about this also at minister's camp.

When we talk about liturgy, I guess I've always thought in this way, well, liturgy is maybe this kind of a worship service where the priest has a part and the congregation has a part, as those of us that have visited Finland maybe are aware of.

When we think of the term liturgy, this is simply the form for our church service. So we, when we gather on a Sunday morning or when we gather for our communion service, there's a liturgy that accompanies that. It's the order of service. And in considering this matter of the creed,

In our worship service and then in particular in the communion service, Luther said that the creed is the congregation's answer to the sermon, to the word that is read, spoken, and heard. And in this way, it is natural that the congregation led by the pastor would recite the creed aloud and together.

And when this is done, the creed emphasizes the congregation's faith in two ways. It's the answer or the amen to the sermon and the congregation's faith in the Lord's Holy Supper in communion that is to follow.

So when we consider how Luther viewed the creed and in its context in a church service, it gives a location where this would happen in the communion service. It would be immediately after the sermon and there wouldn't be a hymn between the sermon and the creed. It serves then as the conclusion to the liturgy or the form of service of the word.

From then, the service moves into the liturgy or the form for the sacrament for communion. So our current communion service, the two parts, the order of service or liturgy of the word, we begin with a hymn followed by a prayer. There's the sermon and then

A hymn that follows the sermon. And then we move into the order of the service for the sacrament, the salutation, the various sections that are there in the communion rites, confession of sin, absolution, and so on, through to the distribution, and then following communion, the closing prayer and benediction, and then concluding hymn.

So if we were to consider this and add this into our communion service, the creed would be then recited following the sermon. And then there would be a couple of possible considerations. There could be a hymn afterwards, or then without that hymn there, you would move directly into the sacrament,

The communion service, beginning with the salutation. And this isn't something that in this way is coming now as a recommendation. This would be an item to follow up on at an annual meeting, but more just information, what the discussion has been, what we visited about that minister's camp.

And item for awareness, maybe congregation boards can also take this back and give some consideration and thought for this as we would return to this at some point here, maybe in the context of an annual meeting and visit about it if we were to establish this type of a change for our communion service.

The final item that I just wanted to touch on has been our communion rights and how we've distributed communion.

I know in many congregations with COVID and the various guidances that we were under, there were adjustments made to the communion service, and that has varied. And in some congregations, there was even different approaches that were taken. But as we move now out of the pandemic, it would be good if we can

Consider if some of these practices that now have been adopted, if there's something we would wish to adopt as a consistent practice in all of our congregations or

Might we return to how we did the communion service before COVID? There's been, I know personally, I've received feedback both ways. There's been this thought that it would be nice to return to how we did it before, where the minister distributed the elements to the person. And I've also received feedback that our approach in Elk River has been that

The communion wafer is placed into the hand of the communicant and the tray is offered and individuals take their own cup from the tray. I've also heard comments that this has been appreciated and even the hope that this would continue. But going forward now, it would be good to consider this. I think primarily

When we think of our larger services, summer and winter services, what our practice will be. But then I think of as ministers, when we're called to serve in other congregations, maybe for special services, if there's a fairly consistent approach to that, it just makes it a lot easier for the communion service.

So this would be something the pastoral committee is looking for your input and consideration on. Please communicate and share your thoughts with us as we have these discussions now going forward on the communion rites. So those were the few items that I had from

Minister's Council will turn it over to Phil now here for facility update. Good evening. Good speech to those that I haven't been able to greet yet.

And at one point I thought my brother Eric was fairly clever, but recently I've discovered otherwise. He thought that hit me with a skid steer a few minutes ago. He forgot that I have the last word today. So,

Just enough of that thread is enough for me. I'm not going to say anything more about it. So just real briefly, we have a facilities update and just a little bit of information regarding the fire that's happening at Camp Kippa or near Camp Kippa, and then a little bit more information regarding our discussions around Haskett. So this is a graph that shows what our

Our usage or our camp participation was at the different camps during 2021. And so nearly 1,600 participants were at Stony Lake. And again, these aren't, the numbers aren't completely perfect because this is the numbers we get off of our signup active.

That there are participation that do come other than through that sign-up system that we have. But at any rate, this is what I'm going to rely on and what I have been relying on for information. So almost 1,600 participants at Stony Lake and at Camp Kippa, and we have about 900 just over.

Prairie Shores is right at just under 600, and then Haskett Lake in 2021 was 340. At Haskett Lake this year, based on our current schedule, we would expect more like 700 participants at Haskett Lake. So that certainly enters into the conversation that we have regarding the situations there in our camp planning.

So these next few slides will just kind of briefly show what's happening. There are 43 events between April and October at Stony Lake. It's a busy camp season. A lot of work happens there, a lot of volunteer activities, and it takes about 500 people or 500 volunteer positions to help our camps function during our camp season.

So that's including kitchen, course staff, directors, teachers, camp counselors. So it's a huge undertaking for all of our camp systems to work. It requires a lot of volunteer work. And again, we would ask, if you are asked to help at camp, say yes first and think about it. And then if there's a good reason that you can't, then kind of politely decline.

Rather than say no first and consider it and then be too embarrassed to say that you can't. It's typically easier for us to find a replacement than it is for us to find the initial staff.

And then there's, throughout these slides, you'll see a common theme here in that Julie Ojalehto is the central kitchen manager. We've had a kitchen manager at each of the camp centers in the past. And due to a lack of being able to find somebody this year, we did ask Julie if she would work with me on taking a little bit of different approach to our kitchen and our food service.

And so Julie's agreed to help out and she's serving more as a central, just for all of North American camps, or not Prairie Shores, but all US camps as that kitchen manager. So she's monitoring the number of participants that are scheduled. She's ordering the food to be delivered there. And then at each camp center, we will have somebody that'll take that delivery

And then maintain inventory. We've developed a standardized menu. We've had a little bit of an anomaly at the beginning of this camp here. The minister's camp, Kevin Johnson and Mike German went up there and served the ministers. And you know, the rest of the camp season is going to be a lot better. Well, yeah, they kind of set the standard a little high.

But at any rate, the participants that have participated at Mother Daughter Camp last weekend, good reviews from the food that we had there at Mother Daughter Camp again this weekend. And Julie is up here working at Stoney Lake now for this first two camps just to kind of monitor and to see how things are going. We understand that it's not going to be perfect.

We understand that we're going to have to work through some challenges and some situations as we go. We do ask for kitchen leads, and so Julie will be in contact with them prior to camp to do that. And if all else fails, they'll be stuck with me. And we all know that's not going to work well, so everybody else will be there.

As far as a key project at Stony Lake this year is that we've been doing a lot of extra updates to the staff cabin. At one point we thought we were going to have to raise it or gut it.

But we found another solution with Kevin DeLacy having been up there. So we're trying to upgrade it and update it. And most of that work is done. Once the frost is out, we'll be able to complete that work. And the cost of that is relatively inexpensive relative to redoing the whole building.

That's really our main primary focus here. We have some continuing work to finish up there from the 2017 facility renewal up there. But at any rate, it's really in good shape and we're making good progress. And Kevin DeLacy's been a wonderful add up there at the camp. And now, next slide.

Haskett Lake. So Haskett Lake hosts, technically we only host between June and end of September. We have a four month period of where we're allowed to use the camp. Otherwise we fall into some other financial burdens regarding employee status. So we do have an open house May 22nd this year, a work week that's just before that. So all of you are welcome.

Come up there May 22nd. On May 21st, there's an Eastern Area Board meeting. And over the last six months to a year, we've been discussing Haskiv in more detail. And the...

Just as the population continues to shift westward, you know, how does Haskett Lake fit in our future? And so Eastern Area Boards have taken this on as a specific agenda item for that May 21st meeting to discuss further. Elizabeth and I and Eric have prepared a presentation for that meeting, and we're distributing it now for their consideration prior to that meeting.

And then we see that Doug and Judy Mattila spent the last summer up there as the assistant caretakers and assistants to Eric and Katrina. With Eric and Katrina's move to Phoenix, Doug and Judy had so much fun. They couldn't wait to come back and do it again. So we welcome them back and they will be heading up there this next week. I thought it was a couple of weeks, but he texted me the other day. He said, I'm ready to go. Let's go.

And then my wife, Sarah, is gonna spend a good bulk of the summer there during our heavy camp season, six weeks or so. And then we will fill in the kitchen needs on both sides of that with volunteers and staff from up there. And our facility is 30 years old and our furnaces are 30 years old. And originally, last year when we did an evaluation, the HVAC people that advised us said that you'll replace those HVAC systems.

And Mike Kvopis didn't like that answer, so he's found a solution where we can replace the burners anyway. So I like the way Mike operates. Doesn't take their answer. He says, we'll figure out another way. So again, volunteers and maybe the sisu, the stubbornness of the Finnish people kind of plays through there a little bit. So Camp Kippa hosts about the same number of events, 19 events, and it's the May through September.

And Tom Kolpas is the caretaker. It's his second season there, and things are going well with that. Julie Ojalehto, because she didn't have enough to do, also does the office and admin work there. One of the brothers at lunchtime was telling me about the difference between serving at the West Coast confirmation camps compared to going to Camp Kippa with the

West Coast Camps having to be moved to Camp Kippa over the last couple of years as directors from the West Coast, we had a lot of responsibilities, a lot to do. When we then got reassigned to Camp Kippa, we'd get there and Julie said, this is all you need to worry about. And I said, well, wait, I'm like assigned as the director. She goes, I know, just do what I tell you and you'll be fine.

So some of us didn't really, you know, sit well with us a little bit, you know, because we felt like we were neglecting our duties. But I'll tell you what, it's not neglecting your duties to listen to Julie. She makes your life really, really easy up there. So if you're going there as a director and you have this little bit proud bent to you that you'll like to have that assignment because you're assigned here to carry through, listen to Julie, it's okay.

Then a little update on the Crooks fire. It started on April 18th and it was just a little ways away from the camp. And it extended quickly that afternoon to 500 acres. And as of April 27th, it was 8,000 acres and there was 20% containment. We've had a good defensible state. We call it defensible space around Camp Kippa through a partnership and through a grant program

That was started prior to me coming here with the Forest Service. And what the Forest Service has done is contracted with loggers to remove underbrush and to do some forest thinning at Camp Kippa. And somebody joked with me because earlier on in one of my presentations, I said they were clearing underbrush of eight inches and less. They said, well, we can tell you're from the Pacific Northwest, Phil. That's not underbrush. I said, oh, I thought it was.

But anyway, they did do that work. And I can't help but think that that has helped us a lot during this fire season and during this fire in particular. So this is today. This was about seven hours ago, this map. And so where there's a black line around that, that's called containment. So they're pretty confident about the containment of the fire

Around there, where that yellow circle is, is Kamp Kippa. It burned onto our property. And it spotted onto our property and past our property. Fortunately, it didn't threaten our structures, well, threaten our structures, but it didn't harm our structures. So for that, we're thankful. And

There was a number of things that happened earlier on is that the wind shifted a little bit and moved it away and moved it up towards Mountain Union. And we had Poland Road there as a great way for them to do some backfiring and that type of thing. So again, we can be thankful to God that he's protected us and this, but also that there was wisdom in those that when the Forest Service came first and made this proposal for doing some

Creating some defensible space and that. And as a result of that, we've been using this kind of work that's been done with the Forest Service as a way to continue to develop Camp Kippa and do some further building there. And I told them that it was gonna be a great place to have a base camp. If they would just let us improve our structures there, guess what? The fire guys are at Camp Kippa as a base camp.

I don't think the fire marshal's gonna care any when I go there and tell him that, but... Eric's? Yeah, he thought they were back burning down there. So anyway, we're in good shape. It looks like that containment's gonna hold. You know, containment isn't a guarantee, but all of this area down in this area was burned earlier on, two weeks ago.

And most of the fire behavior now that's extending is on this western flank and to the south. And then today, when I looked at the map, it looked like it was just nominal spreading, so it wasn't real active or difficult fire behavior today. And Prairie Shores is owned by the Canadians. We have a little bit of information that way, but they host about the same number of camps as Kippa and Haskip.

For the same types of camps, confirmation youth and adult weekend. And Antti Pataisto has been the director. He's going to be moving, and so somebody else will be taking a spot. I don't know who that's going to be. Maybe that's been decided, but I haven't been informed. But nonetheless, I do participate in those meetings when I'm able.

To listen in. And also listen in on West Coast camp board meetings and participate there where we can as well. Expanding some of our support to the West Coast as well on a regular basis for their camp events. I get a little notice that something's trying to update. Silver Springs.

So our current work there is that the restroom project is started. The forms for footings were dropped into the hole on Friday afternoon. We're pouring concrete Monday afternoon at about one o'clock.

And we expect to have the stem walls poured by the end of this week. Plumbers and carpenters are coming in on Monday, the 9th or 10th, or that week anyway, and so I hope that we will have a framed up building by the time I head up to Haskett on the 17th.

So that's projects going forward. As far as development of Silver Springs, we have a Silver Springs Development Committee and there's a Silver Springs Management Committee. And the Development Committee has been appointed by the LLC Board. And with that development, we're trying to discover what is our future for Silver Springs. When I say discover is that we have some ideas and we have some thoughts. And we discuss a lot and there's lots of discussion that happens around that debate even.

I think God knows already what Silver Springs is going to look like. Right now he's just wanting us to go through the exercise in trying to figure that out. So Jouko has often remarked to me that God has a sense of humor. He likes to watch us fidget and go down this avenue and come back and figure out which road we're going to go down. But that's what we're doing right now.

And part of that has, what we've done is that we've hired an attorney, a land use attorney to help us with some of that zoning ordinance, zoning and ordinance amendments. Like right now the county does not allow what we want to do at Silver Springs and because of their zoning. They're very supportive of our projects and our thoughts and our ideas.

So there's no question there. They're just concerned about the precedent that it sets for the rest of the county. And I told them, you know, let us do it. It'll be fine. Yeah, it's a base camp. So anyway, so the attorney has recommended is that we take a phase, a couple phase approach here, and that we do this phase one approach that would be just to develop a retreat center.

And that's addressing some unmet needs that we currently have. Not all of our youth from Minnesota go to youth camp because there's limited space or distance or whatever, the challenges of going to camp. So when we look at Minnesota as a whole, there would be a need there. Recently at our regional youth committee meeting,

Figured there's probably a thousand youth, unmarried youth between 15 and 25 in this central Minnesota area. So how do we, is there a way that some of the development that we do at Silver Springs could help us with that? We don't know, but it's another piece of the puzzle that we're trying to consider. So she recommends getting approval to do this retreat center. What does that mean? We'll figure that out as we go and we get approval.

And then the phase two would be the bigger issue and what they call a larger uphill battle is getting that overnight lodging and event lodging. That's what they're concerned about is that event lodging.

We're going to work through that. The attorney is getting a lot more attention than me and Eric did when we went down there. We knocked on the door and said, hi, we want to build a retreat center. And they said, and who are you? When the attorney went down there, they all stood up and said, oh, how can we help you today? So far, she's been money well invested in, and she's been very helpful for us, too. And she's taken what we envision it to be and trying to

Convince them that this is in their best interest to allow us to do that. And then as Eric already talked about is that 2022 summer services are going to be held there as well as the 2023. So this year hosted by the LLC and local congregations and then Monticello in 2023. Is there any questions or comments or thoughts that you have from my brief presentation?

You're welcome. The teacher's educators would tell me that when you ask a question, you wait for a little bit. But if I don't wait, then I don't have to answer any questions. No, and in all seriousness, if you have suggestions, thoughts, or ideas, email them to me. You can call me. We'll call her.

You get a lot better response. He's looking for something to do now with Arvin coming. He's thinking, I wonder if I can make it to June. As long as the weather's not good, the golf clubs aren't beckoning. Right, Jim? He's a good golfer. Yeah.

Anyway, I thought I would be able to get that in. That worked. Thank you, everybody. And again, thank you all for your continued support and encouragement to do the work.

Work is precious, it's important, it's fun, and it's enjoyable, and it's very meaningful. John had listed up there our mission of the LLC. This work that I get to do all the time directly ties in with all of those three bullets, and it's so nice. Ask again for your continued support, your prayers for all the work that's happening in God's kingdom,

And for those of us there at the office, thank you. He thought he had the last say.

So please bring greetings home. Safe travels home. Your attentiveness and your willingness to come spend the whole day with us is very beneficial to the work and also comforting to feel the unity and support of the Holy Spirit. So thank you for that.

Loving greetings home, safe travels, and we'll see you back up here in a few short months. Summer service is welcome. Jouko will serve us with our closing devotion, but we can sing song 396, I believe it was.