LLC Board Representatives' Meeting with the Minneapolis Congregation, May 14, 2022

Good evening everybody. We'll start tonight by all saying the Lord's Prayer together.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

We want to welcome everyone here tonight for this evening's discussion, especially those of you from the LLC. We understood from your latest letter that this is an opportunity for us to hear how we can move forward. Our desire is to hear your concerns.

We wish to discuss and resolve issues in the light of God's word. While contentions have existed, we do not believe separation is the way forward. It continues to be our desire to maintain the bond of Christian love and journey in faith with all believers. Our hope and prayer is for a respectful and fruitful evening. Hearing your perspectives and discussing matters with the mind of Christ is forgiving in a loving way.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such there is no law. Forbearing one another and forgiving one another, if any man have quarrel against any, even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Colossians 3.13. Gary Lehtola will moderate the discussion tonight, so I'll invite him on to do so. So we'll start out right away with Jim Frantti. Come on up, and you're welcome to keep your comments.

Well, first of all, I want to say a word of thanks to the board and congregation here for inviting us to come.

We are here this evening in response to the letter that we have sent. It felt good to us that we could come here and share thoughts with all of you. I have to say at the beginning that we come here as empty vessels in ourselves.

We carry that prayer that God this evening would give of his spirit and would help us. The brothers who serve on the LLC board who sent us here, as well as those who serve on the boards in the local congregations,

I'd like to say at the beginning that they're all servants.

They are not, any of them, as lords over the congregation in any way. But they're only servants and that's why we call them servants, who have been placed in these duties to serve by the congregations here in the North American Zion.

Okay, and Gary will keep me on track here and on task, but likewise, coming here this evening, we have come only for that purpose, to serve in love for undying souls.

And we have been sent, I know, with many prayers to the Heavenly Father that he would be with us and would guide and bless our people. At the beginning, I just want to share that it has been said that the purpose of the request that came from the LLC Board

To meet here was for this thought of somehow pushing this congregation out of the fellowship of God's children or God's kingdom and that has never been our thought nor our purpose nor our hope.

It was recently said, for example, that the request letter that was sent from the LLC board indicated that it is our purpose for requesting to meet. And in fact, our letter, for those who may not have seen it or heard it, I'd like to read one part of it, what it said. It read in this way.

We would now like to send representatives soon to meet with your congregation and to share with you our sense of where we are and how we move forward. And we heard that already in these opening comments.

So it is not with that purpose at all that we would push anybody away from fellowship, but rather it is the hope and prayer of all of us that none would be lost. And I know it's first and foremost our own personal hope and prayer.

During the last seven years, or at least seven years, maybe even longer than that, but seven at least, we've had many meetings, various kinds. We've had meetings with boards, we've had meetings with LLC representatives, we've had area-wide meetings, meetings with participants from all across the North American continent.

And at these meetings we have discussed many, many things, particularly we've discussed Christian doctrine in the light of God's word. And somehow yet it feels like through all of these years of meetings that it has not produced one-mindedness or harmony.

On the contrary, it feels in some ways like the divide that the enemy is trying to create has become even greater. And so we might even have different perceptions on these meetings and these discussions that have taken place.

I feel like we can say that we have both heard two voices and it is very troubling. We know that there can only be one true and correct voice. Jesus said in this way, I am the good shepherd and know my sheep and am known of mine.

My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. And a stranger will they not follow but will flee from him for they know not the voice of strangers. We believe that God's Holy Spirit has

Spoken with love and that it has guided and taught at these meetings that I mentioned. And it has guided on the base of God's holy word which we know is for us the highest authority. At the same time we understand that God uses faulty people to bring his message.

And so every speech in every meeting may not have been perfect. In fact, I suppose it's safe to say it has not been perfect because we are all faulty. But weak words are not the cause of those things that seem to be dividing us as we are experiencing.

We have heard the voice of the Good Shepherd, and we believe that we walk with his cloth in his footsteps and in the footsteps of the former sheep. Some of those who have attended these meetings, representatives, for example, from this congregation,

I've had a different perception.

Some have heard a different voice and have themselves spoken in a different voice. And it feels like it's a voice that opposes God's spirit and congregation and it is deeply troubling. God's spirit [does] not [divide]. God's spirit builds unity. It gathers the believers in unity of faith and it enlightens.

The perception that seems to have come from some of God's congregation here in North America is also troubling. We see, and I must say that I personally see, God's Zion as a golden candlestick.

Where God's Spirit dwells, where God's Spirit teaches according to God's Word. And where salvation through Jesus Christ is offered. It is a kingdom of grace and forgiveness.

That's how I have personally experienced it myself because I have needed grace and forgiveness in my own life. It seems like from some, for example from this congregation,

We have heard this kind of picture of North American Zion that it is mal-administered, there's some sort of heavy-handed governance of God's house, that there is law-mindedness, and that it is a place where fear prevails. And I have to openly and honestly say that is not the picture I see of the North American Zion.

I know that it has been for all of us a long and tiring time. And it doesn't seem that continued discussions and debates as we have had over the last several years will resolve anything. God's kingdom is not a divided kingdom.

And we realize this. I'm sure you also realize that we cannot continue as a divided flock. We have great love for your undying souls. When I arrived here and when I look around here even now,

I see people who I've known for many years as dear friends. And it is our prayer and our hope that none of us would be lost. And at the same time, we don't see a way forward as a divided flock. It feels like it's time

For each one of us to ask of himself or herself, where am I? Which voice will I follow? With which flock do I wish to travel?

We recognize that there may be some who are very entrenched in their positions or hardened and at the same time there may be others who have been misled or maybe are simply confused and unsure and wonder what is happening and why. But in either case, it feels like the time to choose is here now.

And so we've come with this kind of plea, dear friends, that we bring a message to repent and turn again to travel with the Good Shepherd and his flock. Sometimes this question has been asked of us, what must the Minneapolis congregation repent of?

And when it's been asked of me, I have said nothing. A congregation doesn't repent. Faith is personal. And we must each take care of our own matters. Repentance is an individual matter.

Each person has to choose for themselves his or her past and each must believe for himself or herself. God can awaken our own personal conscience and we want to take care of matters when he does.

And so it's a personal but not a congregational matter to care for our own undying souls and our own faith. But it does feel like without repentance this kind of division that we have been experiencing could sadly become a formal separation.

Which would just be, in some ways, a manifestation of the spiritual division that has existed and has persisted and has grown. If you would indulge me, I thought that I would like to share with you my own personal experience in my life.

I think some of you know, but probably not all of you know that I was lost in the last heresy of 1973. It was a confusing time for me.

I heard things and I didn't understand which way was right. And of course we know and I know that the ultimate reason that someone leaves faith is because of sin. But I have to say that I tried to listen to those on both sides of the issues back at that time in the early 70s leading up to the heresy.

I had friends on both sides and I had family members on both sides. And I tried to listen to both. And in doing so, I became more and more confused. And so, ultimately,

I lost the way and was lost into the heresy. And I was actually there for more than three and a half years. But I have to say honestly that during those three and a half years or more than that, that I was lost there. I never felt true peace. The kind of peace that only Christ can give.

I oftentimes sat in the queue at the services there in the heresy, and I would have to say that quite often the words that were spoken in the service were very much like the words that the believers hear at their services.

But they didn't give me peace. I sat so many times in the pews and I prayed, Dear God, if this is your kingdom, let me feel peace. And I'd leave not feeling it. Because without God's Holy Spirit, they're not living words. And so I was for all that time very distressed.

And finally, I would have to say that I began to ponder many different questions in my distress. I probably even had a list of them, or I certainly could have made a list of my questions.

Some of them were questions about or criticisms of the believers and some were questions about those who were in heresy. And I thought somehow in my own mind that if I can get answers to these questions, then I can decide for myself which way is right and find the way. But it doesn't happen like that, does it?

We don't find the way through our own understanding. In fact, the believers have always said that faith does not come from understanding. Understanding comes from faith. And so I had things backwards then. But finally, in my distress,

God was able to lead me and my wife to visit with an elderly believing couple whom I had known for pretty much all of my life. We contacted them and asked if we could come for a visit and they welcomed us to their home and we sat at their kitchen table and I told them that I have a number of questions that I'd like to discuss and get answers to.

I'll never forget the response of that dear elderly believing lady. She looked at me and she said, we will try to answer your questions. But she said, I don't understand very much. But I know this, that my sins are forgiven and I have peace with God.

And you know, that simple answer really stopped me. It felt like I heard a calling voice. And then what I thought is, if God is calling to me tonight, if I leave this house and don't repent, maybe God will never call me again.

It's a frightening song because we know that no one can come unto the Lord Jesus except the Father God. And so God gave me that grace that I could lay aside for the moment my questions and turn to the one important question. Could I have my sins forgiven?

And that elderly couple joyfully preached the gospel to me and also to my wife. And you know, an interesting thing happened.

In time God answered some of my questions, but not all of them. And in time actually I couldn't have told you what my questions were. I honestly don't remember today what were all those questions that were such stumbling blocks for me.

They became unimportant. The important thing was that I could believe, that I could live of the gospel, that my sins were forgiven. And so I learned that great lesson that I can't make my way with my own understanding. I can't find the way by seeking answers to all of my own personal questions.

God opens understanding as he sees fit, and he does not give to any of us all or perfect understanding. Like Apostle Paul said himself, that here we know in part, we prophesy in part, we see as if through a glass dart. So, dear friends,

I want to say to you what that elderly believing lady said to me back on December 26, 1976. I don't understand very much, but I know that my sins are forgiven and I have peace with God. And that is what is so important to me.

The writer to the Hebrews gave this counsel. Today, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. God doesn't make great demands of us. He asks us to humble to repentance, to care for our own matters.

And even if you don't understand, as I didn't understand everything, that doesn't matter. It's not what's most important. When we can hear the calling voice of the Good Shepherd and repent, then God will give understanding as he sees important. But above all, he will give peace to your heart and conscience.

That's what I found that night in that humble home of that elderly believing couple. The peace that I had been lacking for all those years. And so this is the call that we would want to bring to those of you who might be lost or confused or who have

People who have fallen from faith or who are battling against God and his kingdom, this kind of call that puts aside our pride and our questions.

And humble to repentance. It has always been the message of God's kingdom hasn't it? It was the message Jesus brought and his disciples brought. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent. And so we can care for our matters in that way. But I say again in closing my remarks that we have come here for only this purpose that

We could help that none of us would be lost. We don't want to see any of you lost and we don't want ourselves either to lose the way. The way of faith leads to an eternal home and destination. And so it is.

It is important, it is worthwhile to believe, it is the only way that we can be righteous and acceptable to God. So thank you again for inviting us and for listening patiently to my personal story.

Again, for the opening comments, and again, welcome everybody, especially the LLC brothers who came. So, we'll get our discussion here started shortly. I just want to say a couple words here. When Jesus

Appeared on the road to Emmaus to two of the travelers there. They traveled together for some time. And after that time, then Jesus again disappeared. And the two said together that did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us by the way and while he opened to us the scriptures.

When he was still in this life, he once said that, come unto me all you who labor and who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

In Hebrews, we're exhorted to focus and turn our gaze to Christ. For if we're seeing, we also are compressed about what's so great a call to witness. Let us lay aside every weight and sin which doth so easily beset, and let us run with patience

The race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and he sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So, yeah, again, Jim, thanks for your opening comments. And you mentioned how the kingdom of God is a golden candlestick. I totally agree with that. It's a kingdom of grace and forgiveness. And it's a kingdom where salvation is offered. And this I totally and wholeheartedly agree with.

So with that, I'd like to go ahead and open up the floor here. We've got a roaming mic in the back. I see several hands up, so I'll try to catch up with them. We've got a roaming mic in the back. And we do have a mic up front here, so if we happen to get some dialogue going back and forth, then we've got a nice place to put it here.

Mike right up front here, and so maybe get some dialogue going. So we have one, I'm afraid, up here where you guys can go ahead and have some dialogue here. So I did see Olli's hand first. I saw a number of other hands there, but I didn't quite keep up with them. Yeah.

First of all, thank you for coming, Sam, Jim, and Marv. Nice to see you here. And Carey. Thank you for your opening comments, Jim. One thing that I was looking forward to in your comment was

Offering of gospel. And maybe it was just a situation, because a situation that it was for God. I was looking forward to hear the gospel.

Okay, so I wrote down some of the thoughts earlier today just so that I don't get all of my thoughts scrambled here. So let me just go through some of these. So I think that if we start looking back at this point and try to sort out that who has done

What runs, who does not have perfect understanding, who is not showing fruits, or who seems to have a wrong spirit, and so on. If we do that, we will exhaust ourselves, and we will lose the simplicity of our faith.

We do not need to do that here tonight. We can simply forgive any sins and offenses that has taken place. We can also believe them all forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. And I would ask, can I hear that gospel?

So, we all, we have been taught that God sent his only son to die for all [sinners]. If we believe this, we are [made] acceptable.

We are righteousness alone by faith, alone by grace, and alone by Christ's redemption work. There is nothing we can do or offer to earn our salvation. In the Pentecost Day,

The Holy Spirit was given to all who believed and followed Jesus. That same Holy Spirit is still found in God's Kingdom. Each of us who believe personally owns this Holy Spirit even today. The Holy Spirit teaches, gathers, and complements us.

It guides us in our way to heaven. It guides us to live and believe according to God's word. It enlightens our written word. This word is the foundation of our faith. This word is what this kingdom stands on.

God's kingdom is invisible. God's kingdom is righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Spirit. Those who believe and have the Holy Spirit in their heart are partakers of this kingdom. We also have this earthly congregation

Group of believers organized by localities and countries and so on. This is where we find support for our faith. This is where we gather together to listen to and learn God's Word.

This is where a poor, faulty and unsuccessful traveler is encouraged to continue in their faith. In this, this God's congregation, we find grace and forgiveness.

This is where brothers and sisters in faith freely share the gospel message. Jesus has died for your sins. You can believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and love. This gospel leads us, it cleanses our conscience and encourages us to believe.

This gospel is forgiveness of all sins. It is unconditional and it is without demand. There is power in this gospel.

If there is even one who owns Holy Spirit in their heart and proclaims this gospel, and if a person believes it, it has power. This power cannot be taken away by anyone. It is God's work. This is how I believe.

This is a message I have heard here in Minneapolis. It is familiar, it is secure, and a comforting message that has been and is preached in our Christianity. As it has been brought up so many times in the past, Minneapolis does not want to be separated from other believers.

We want to travel with the rest of the North Americans. I am Finland, Sweden, Africa and so on. And we all know that it is sin that has caused all these troubles in the recent times.

We all know that there's only one way to correct matters and start healing. It's by forgiving each other. It is by believing our own sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. And I even again

I want to ask that if I have caused any offenses, can I believe those and all of my sins for good? John. John Marks.

Okay, so first of all, I'd like to see forgiveness. We are a kingdom of forgiveness. I see here a group of sinners. We all believe in the forgiveness of sins. I know that's been a thing that we don't believe in. We believe in having our sins forgiven. We also believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins.

If we're believing upon this message, we can gain salvation. I wanted to read from Corinthians 13.

Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It is not rude. It is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. I feel like there has been a long record of wrongs.

We need to forgive. If we have love, love is the first fruit of faith. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. Also, I'm very confused.

I'm confused when I'm always hearing that there's a different voice. I know at one of our meetings I did ask one of these fellows here what was a different voice.

Has God's word become a foreign voice? I want to ask. That's been very bothersome to hear when people have quoted scripture and yet this has become and has been labeled as a foreign voice. And it's true, like Jim said, the Holy Spirit does not divide.

So why do we keep talking about this division and how this division is only getting wider? If we have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit does not want to divide. It does not want it to become wider. We want to sit and discuss. Christ came to this earth to save, not to condemn.

Then I was going to read from, I don't know which verse this is, but when I think of this coming, keeping record of all the errors, it says, Why beholdest thou the moment that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the being that is in thy own eye? And I,

I also am very sad and distressed about this isolation. I do not believe the scriptures speak at all of isolating congregations or withholding. This is a form of withholding the gospel.

Because the Gospel is the Word of God. It is the Holy Bible. It is the Gospel. There is many Gospels within the Bible. So when we are withholding the Gospel, that is what's happening right now. That is being withheld from us. When we have called speakers to come speak with us, speak for our congregation, it has been considered sin.

That is a foreign voice. That is very foreign in the new Christianity that you consider when a speaker would come to spread the gospel to a Christian congregation or to anyone. When this is considered sin, that is contrary to God's word.

We must be warriors of Christ. We must pledge our obedience to Christ, not to man, not to an organization. And Jim, you said we cannot continue together, but you did say that you didn't come to kick us out. I'm confused about the two different messages.

And I guess I'm really sad to see that Keith and Russell are not here. I think it is their duty to come and visit with us. We would be happy to forgive and beg for forgiveness. And explain to us why they felt that their faith was in jeopardy if they would remain walking with us in Minneapolis.

Then there's just going to be this Ari Pelkonen's article, the first part of it, that was in the Voice of Zion. I think these were last year. Okay, Grace Distinguishes Christian Faith from Other Religions.

We cannot speak of a saving faith without speaking of grace. Grace is the core issue in human salvation and becoming righteous or justification. The Bible teaches that a person is saved by grace through faith and that is a gift from God, merited without one's own works because God has given Christ to believers.

The reformer Martin Luther emphasized that we are saved by faith alone, through grace alone, and for Christ's sake alone. The doctrine of grace includes the separation of the law and the gospel. The law demands the works of a person, but faith owns the grace of God offered in the gospel. It would not be possible to own grace were it not for the atonement work of Christ. This is a confession of my faith. This is how I believe.

When I keep hearing this calling for repentance, I feel like it is a calling for me to forsake my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I cannot do that. I cannot do that for any man. I cannot do that. But I can beg for forgiveness for all my errors and all my faults, all my wrongdoings,

I have a heart of forgiveness and I can forgive and I believe this entire group here would like to do that. So far all my faults and errors and I know I've had many frustrations with all this going on. Can I still believe my sins forgiven?

And again, if any of the LLC brothers in between have, just let me know. I'll give you that mic. Otherwise, we'll go on. Lisa, I think. Lisa, do we know? Garrett? Another one, Mike? Yeah. Okay, Garrett's on the list. Risto, John Lehtola, Ken Raisanen. The names I have on my list, so I haven't missed them. Okay. So,

I guess I'm not really good at talking in these kind of things so kind of hang with me but I think that Christ has become a stumbling block in our church and I think all problems go away if we all agree on justification. How are we saved? If we're saved by Christ then I think all problems would end.

My wife and I have been told to repent because we believe on the merit works of Christ, and that's the only way for being saved. And I've talked to quite a few people that told me that unbelievers believe that way. And I personally believe that Christ has died for my sins, and that's how I believe. That's my confession of my faith, I guess. And I don't know.

I guess it's kind of a struggle because a lot of people told me that unbelievers and heretics and stuff believe that, but I don't know, I guess that's all I have to add.

I just want to say that I still see this kingdom as a golden candlestick and that has not changed throughout my life. So today when I receive the gospel of forgiveness, it's brought me the same peace and joy that it always has brought me and given me strength to continue one more day.

We're instructed in the Bible to follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and meekness. So I personally would like to see discussions continue in patience to try to determine what the issue is here. So one other thing, this congregation's been without a minister for two and a half years, but I've never been so thankful that God has blessed us.

We've had visiting ministers. We've been fed from online services from North America and Finland. We're fed through our Bible class lessons. And I can only thank God that we are still here without a speaker serving us from the pulpit, but we still gather here. I feel like God has not forsaken this flock in Minneapolis.

I've had a lot of doubts and fears with this spiritual situation, and I still want to make it to heaven. Can I hear the gospel? Risto. Your turn. Did you have your hand up? No. Okay, I was up pretty high when I saw it. John Lehtola.

First of all, I'd like to bring greetings from

Friends in Finland, we've had warm conversations, conference calls, and they said bring greetings to this gathering that there are hundreds and hundreds of believers there in Finland who keep you there in Minneapolis, in Wolf Lake, in the same love, fellowship, and unity as us here in Finland.

So, received these greetings from across the ocean. Jim in his comments mentioned that at some of the gatherings where Minneapolis members were also present, there was a different voice or a strange voice in some of the comments.

Last October, there's a Southern Minnesota meeting. And of course, many Minneapolis members spoke up. And these speeches were recorded, transcribed, translated into Finnish, and sent to Finnish brothers and sisters in Finland. And they said, amen, amen, amen.

Yet in the synopsis that came from the meeting, there was a strange voice that came from the speeches from Minneapolis. So where is the disconnect? The same thing happened at the MDMAC.

Those speeches were recorded, transcribed, translated, sent to Finnish brothers and sisters in faith in Finland. They said amen, amen, amen. Yet there was discomfort with the speeches by some here on this continent. So where is the disconnect?

I'm wondering. So there was a call to repentance according to Lutheran teaching and doctrine. According to Luther, when he explains baptism, he says that a believer lives in daily repentance. And daily we press down the old man so that the new man could rise to the surface.

And when Luther talked about confession, he says, who can even begin to remember or number all of our faults and errors? But we confess those that we know we feel trouble our heart and trouble our conscience.

I will see if I just want to answer the disconnect question for John. Go ahead. Keep going. I didn't see anything, so keep going. Okay.

I come here and I'm not talking on behalf of Minneapolis congregation. I have removed myself from the situation for a couple years now. And I'm more like an observer. One thing I think that we all can

How do we know where the Holy Spirit is? Jesus sent us to spread the message and encourage people to believe.

And that's what you should hear in every single speech, encouraging the belief. And that's how I have been mirroring all the happenings and what's going on. And sometimes I can't recognize this Christianity. People have denied my faith for me, but I still feel that I own Jesus.

And he protects me. And he allows me to follow him. And I feel that Jesus' hands are here on Minneapolis. And if you think that Jesus, he is there on the pulpit. Spreading his hands on this congregation, on you, LLC men, everybody,

Whoever wants to believe. That's all that's required. That when we want to believe, Jesus has grace for all of us. In Christianity, we don't give ultimatums. We give grace. We believe that grace affects in people's hearts. We don't say that, okay, if you don't now repent, then your faith life is over.

No, we don't do that. Jesus teaches 70 times 7. Be encouraged. No matter how you feel, how you do, even if we all are wrong, be encouraged and then let the grace work on people. I think this should be stopped. There's all this digging, all this fault finding. You need to stop it.

I don't think that anybody here is God. Anybody say that we say that you need to do this. No, God tells us, believe. And you can. In Minneapolis, I see that there's a lot of people who are rejected. And then I think, who do Jesus calls to? Jesus calls to rejected, sick ones,

The ones who have been looked down on, that's where Jesus goes first. Many people here have seen that something is going on, something wrong, and they have opened their mouth. And then they have told, okay, your faith is bad. Now you're battling against God's kingdom. No, they are not battling against.

They want to follow Christ. They want to see that there has been a little wrong path. And maybe, you know, maybe, you know, you say that you have been accused being law-minded. Maybe it's true. But it doesn't mean that you're not believing. Maybe you should see, and look, have I gone to my law-mindedness? Have I caused any turmoil in people? Being harsh.

There have been many speakers taken down. They all have some kind of trauma, spiritual trauma in them. There have been tens of people released from their duties. They all have trauma. You can't sustain the existence. Myself, I have been spoken openly that I have been traumatized.

And I have tried to heal myself and believe. But I have social anxiety so I can't go to services so often, hardly at all. But I can still believe and I can listen at home. I can get nourished. And I have friends who walk with me.

And then I listened last Saturday, I listened to that meeting. And there was two things from that meeting, what I thought that, maybe not before, and now I really hope that you Jim Frantti, you answer when you said that patience can lead to leniency.

And I feel that God is always patient. God offers the gospel as many times as we need to. I think people need leniency. People went sin. And it's people who sin. Not any teaching. If teaching is right,

We don't need to worry about it when we follow Christ. It's us people. People are sinners and if they want to sin, they will. But when we have faith in our hearts, we want to follow Jesus. We want to live godly life. And then also there was in Jon Bloomquist's

Presentation, he mentioned that they have a pastoral committee and they have been discussing these things and then they have set guidelines to congregations. So then I thought, is that the God's kingdom then? That if you say that that's not likely to do it, that you tell congregations how to think instead of congregations telling you how you should think, that is that the God's kingdom?

Or is it where the true gospel is preached? Here, today, you said that there have been many meetings where doctrine has been spoken. When I see on the side, as an observer, I have seen lots of harsh words towards minnows, like this foreign voice.

Those two spirits. And then nobody says, okay, you said, okay, this voice is different than mine, and then go to Bible and see what Bible teaches. There should not be pride in anybody. We should all be going to go to Bible and see that if there's two opinions or two understandings, see that what Bible teaches us. And then see what's the right way.

My dad, who has been dead almost three years, said this one thing, we need to be united, and it is how people get righteous. And I think that was mentioned here earlier, too, that if we can all agree that we only get righteous because Jesus died for us, then we could discuss all the other matters openly.

But now we have openly sometimes opened our mouth and then people have told you faith is not good enough. And then Jimmy said that there have been two voices on this, sometimes from this congregation or sometimes this congregation has heard some other voice. Can you say what that voice was?

So then we can discuss and maybe see what Bible teaches from that voice. And you said that Minneapolis has turned away from Christ. That's pretty bold. I don't think that anybody here wants to go away from Christ. What I understood, I think everybody wants to follow Christ.

I don't think anybody wants to battle against Christ or His teachings. And we were taught to put the pride away. I don't think anybody wants to be proud in front of Jesus. Because when you think how big of a work Jesus did, you feel pretty humble.

No one but us could have done that. So I hope that everybody today here will feel the humbleness. Can I do it? Can you raise?

So this is, the past number of years has been really trying on myself in particular. And I visited with many people, some that have been very close and very near and dear to me, and some said,

Well, in order to fix the problem, we have to put our own away, so I would like to hear my sins forgiven and any faults and damages I have done in this mass. Could I have my sins forgiven? I've been such a poor example, and any sins and faults have caused me to stumble. Not sure how a wretched one as such as myself can be counted as

One of his own. The Bible speaks very clearly that the first fruit of faith is love. Number one, love to God. Without that, there is no faith. The second is to love thy neighbor.

Of thy neighbor as thyself. I know I have fallen short on that, but I try anyway. So we are justified or made holy by faith, faith alone. Luther says somewhere that without an understanding of this,

Nothing else really matters because that needs to be clear first. Elmer wrote in his book God is Love on page 73, but in Christ Jesus there is no sin. In faith and in his precious blood we stand before God as sinless as Christ is.

It's one of those mysteries of faith. How can we be so sinful and yet haven't accepted the law? Penelope is in his book on page 18. I forget what the title of the book is. Something about the word of reconciliation.

Thinking about the ostracizing of Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations by the rest of American time, it is very contrary to what Havas said and thought. He said, and I'll quote, the Holy Ghost is always a gathering power.

A gathering power, the Holy Ghost, in other words, God in the third person is a gathering power. It melts believing men into living fellowship. It does not beget isolated Christians, one into one corner and another to the next, but it forms one flock from a good shepherd. It ignites into one head Christ, one body, whose members are joined together seamlessly through brotherhood and love.

Laestadius in his book, The Voice of One Crying in the Wilderness, on page 188, he was referring in that part of the book to the seven devils. He says, egoism or self-righteousness is the most dangerous

And I know you've heard preached over the years, especially when you get to my age, we've heard it. Self-righteousness is much more difficult to recognize and much, much more difficult to overcome. In the same book he says that demands for holiness made by self-righteousness

It goes so far that a man must become an angel before he can inherit heaven. And then in 2.29 he says, self-righteousness contradicts itself when speaking of the order of grace. So when

When it's been referred to there's two spirits or another spirit or a foreign voice. The spirit that divides, the spirit that says don't go preach, which is 100% contrary to the Bible because that's one of the primary messages in the Bible is to preach the word in season and out of season.

The spirit that says don't go preach, that is a dividing spirit that's working through men in an attempt to shatter American Zion. And then, Jim, I know you had mentioned, and others have mentioned also, but I'll just pick on you. Anyway, you did say it in your opening comments about patience, and it seems like

It's been a long time and you're tired and I'm tired also. But I try to keep joy in the Holy Spirit and keep my chin up. The Bible does not give us permission to give up on patience to our fellow travelers in faith. Rather, patience is mentioned many times as a good fruit.

And the lack of patience is a bad fruit and could even be compared in my mind to a short temper. Again, the first fruit of faith is love. First and foremost for God on high and secondly for our fellow travelers.

In 2 Corinthians 6, 4, it says, But in all things, approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, in strifes, imprisonments, in turmoils, in labors, in lodgings, and in fastings. So that has also been mentioned, not only tonight, but in other times,

Division, heresy, split. In what Luther says in 1943, 1944, Luther says, Little men do not cause heresy, but rather men who are considered the most wisest, the most learned, the most holy, and the leading churchmen.

And in 1949, he says, pride is the root of godless doctrines. And in 1955, he says, the sole salvation of each person depends on his knowing what is God's word and what is false teaching. And in 1956, he says, be firm in avoiding heresy, reading and partying.

There we must be guided by the principle that one must obey God rather than all men, be they parents, government, preachers, yea, even the whole church if it were possible for that to oppose Christ. And then in 1959 he says to fight heresy with God's word.

So the idea, I thought certainly when the idea was starting to go around, don't go preach to Minneapolis, I thought that would be soundly rejected. And it's unbelievable how universally it was accepted. But it is sin. Clear and simple, to not go preach is sin.

I arrived here a little early on last Wednesday night, so I was like, okay, I need something to read for a while. So I happened to open the book to Acts, the first four chapters. It talks about Peter and John, and they were taken captive, imprisoned, and threatened, and they had been commanded to don't go preach, and they went out and preached every time.

And I think they both lost their lives because they feared God much more than man. You talk about patience. How much patience did Noah have? If I remember right, he preached for 120 years. And was it seven or eight souls were saved?

When the floods came, 120 years, and we're talking a handful of years here, we have no permission to give up on patience for our fellow brothers and sisters in faith, none at all. Then I thought of grace, what is grace? The Bible says it's a teacher and a comforter, and I thought,

I think it's also God's willingness and desire to forgive us our sins. So maybe I'll pass it on for now. But again, everyone can remember me and their thoughts and prayers. Next on the list, Patrick Kennedy.

So, I think in the discussion tonight, it would appear that many of the comments are directed outwards. And I think this opportunity that we have tonight would be better served if we look

Look at ourselves and see where am I, what have I done? What can I do different? As opposed to where are they, what have they done? What can they do different? When in faith,

Are the questions, where are they, what have they done, what can they do different, going to lead to our own salvation? Like many of you, when I heard what Jim said at Winter Services, and I believe he reiterated it here tonight, the message that I initially heard

It was time for us to choose and to repent. That the message can really be broken down into those two words. Choose and repent. And I thought it sounded very demanding. I thought it sounded heavy handed. I thought it validated

A lot of what I believe in this governance of the household of God, that while he said that he didn't see it that way in his words, choose and repent, it almost validated it in that very statement. And then as time went on,

I thought, well, that just doesn't seem right. I've listened to Jim speak for my whole life. That's not who he is. That's not how faith is. So what are we being asked to choose? Are we being asked to choose that Minneapolis is wrong?

And the LLC is right. I don't think that's what we're being asked to choose. I think what we're being asked to choose is to trust that we are in God's kingdom. That the Laestadian Lutheran Church in North America and sister organizations throughout the world are God's kingdom.

And as God's kingdom, they're guided by His Holy Spirit. To trust that each one of us individually, does God need my opinion, my perspective, in order to correct these doctrinal errors as we see them? I think if any one of us thinks that,

Such a level of self-righteousness is almost incomprehensible that God needs my words and my opinion and my perspective in order to correct these wrongdoings as I perceive them. The Holy Spirit, God will use who he will, when he will, to guide his kingdom.

So I believe, and I would ask that if Jim could confirm this, what we're being asked to choose is to trust in God and trust that this is God's kingdom. And while it is administered by flawed men, and I can say with confidence that every one of them would admit to being flawed,

It is still in his kingdom, in time. It leads us to salvation. That's what we're being asked to choose, to trust in God, in his kingdom, and in his Holy Spirit, that in time, it will guide us to heaven, irrespective of what we believe to be right or wrong today.

So the second part of the message is to repeat. Is anyone here today comfortable with the position that our congregation is in in regards to the relationship with the other congregations around us? With our inability to have our song heard

I don't think so. I'm certainly not. And I loved this congregation. I love our little congregation. But as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to come here to worship God. Because this issue has become so big that in many ways I feel the identity of the congregation is this issue more than it is

God and Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. And perhaps this is what they talk about with the foreign voice, that what is our focus? Is it on correcting the wrongs? Or is it on our own personal salvation? So what are we being asked to report? I don't know. But if I think of it in this way,

That I don't know how I got into this position where people that I've loved and known for the entirety of my life look at me distrustfully. I don't feel like I've done anything to deserve that. But it's still there. And I think it's true of our congregation that we're looked at distrustfully.

Regardless of whether we deserve it or not, regardless of whether we are aware of the steps that we've taken or maybe not taken when we should have taken steps that have led us to where we are, we are still there. We are still under this cloud. So what do we want? What do we need to rebuild? We just need

To show remorse for where we are and desire for it to go away and to believe, as many have said, that we can have our sins forgiven in Jesus' name in blood. And if we trust, if we choose, as the first part of the appeal or plea really is what it is, it's a plea, to choose to trust God's kingdom

Desiring to put away our sins, to remove ourselves from underneath this cloud through the gospel. And maybe the cloud will go away. Maybe these issues will be answered in our lives, resolved in our lives. Maybe they won't. Maybe we're the ones that have had

Have been deceived by the devil. And maybe we haven't, but to me it doesn't matter because I do believe that this is God's kingdom. And I know it's the way to heaven. So I think what we should be asking

How can we do that? How can we choose? And how can we be guided all the way out from underneath this cloud? Last of all, could I have my sins forgiven?

So this is [Katja Pikkarainen] and Eric's wife. So this, my message I'd like to particularly address to obviously the LLC members here, but Jim Frantti in particular, considering your comments in the beginning. But if you might ask that in this message that each of you men

Listen very carefully and listen with an open heart to this letter that I'm going to read because I think it does a really sound job of

Explaining the effects of what has occurred over the past several years on an emotional level within God's kingdom. So this letter I received from another believer and it's written by a believing woman. And so I'm gonna read and I quote her now. These are not my words, these are hers.

Dear fellow believers and travel companions, I am a heartbroken mother. It is with an extremely heavy heart. I share a message I've wanted to share for a long time. The conflicts we have been experiencing for the last several years are having serious physical, mental, and emotional effects. The push for separation of years is not right. Jesus says,

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest upon your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. The good shepherd promises to carry even the weakest one.

I know of at least three children from around North American Zion that have recently been hospitalized due to serious mental distress. We all know where mental distress can lead. And we pray to God that no one ever gets so distressed that they get driven to suicide. But who shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me?

If it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, that he were drowned in the depth of the sea, woe unto the world because of the offenses. For it must needs be that offense come, but woe to that man by whom the offense come. These children that have basically been bullied out of their congregations, and they no longer feel comfortable in their own congregation,

Because of this, they have been hopping congregations as they are looking for a place where they are welcomed and accepted as God made them. While I know faith is a gift and no one can take it or give it, the message coming from God's kingdom should be that every person endeavoring to believe is welcome and can believe all their sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood.

Unfortunately, bullying is a term that people shut their ears to because some believe it is overused in society today. It is not. It is real and it is happening right under our eyes. And it is not just happening among children. Not one side, I struggle using the word side as we know there is no sides in God's kingdom, is immune to this.

And the children learn from watching parents and adults' actions towards one another. Actions including rejecting, encouraging others to avoid and take sides, avoiding themselves, pushing for division, speaking untruths about others and their beliefs, speaking about others without speaking to them directly. The list goes on and on.

I could not get rid of the feeling that I had to write this message. Every believer needs to be made aware of the effects of these meetings, talk of division, encouragement to avoid people, accusations of people not believing correctly.

Accusations of confusion are on people of all ages. I fear for all people, be it ministers, board members, or individual people who are pushing for division, encouraging taking sides, recommending avoiding people, et cetera.

We will each stand in front of our Creator and Heavenly Father on that final day. God will judge every person. We can trust in that. The Holy Spirit, which is part of the triune God, gathers and does not scatter. I encourage everyone to look within. No one is without fault in this.

We are all sinful and corrupt. And all that we can do and should do is take care of our own offenses and encourage all others to simply believe that their sins are forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man obeyed with much.

I fervently pray that God will have mercy and love towards each one of us, and we can all remain traveling together to our final goal in heaven. Dear God, have mercy on all of us. God's peace, a heart, a mother. So that was a long message, but I think that, again, like I said, it does a really sound job of

Exemplifying the effects of what is occurring here today. And with that being said, I would like to ask that if I've ever offended anybody, that may I have that forgiving. I would like to believe together with each and every one of you.

Yeah, so after hearing that, I don't really have any final thoughts, but if some of you from the LLC could speak up and

That would give you that conversation and open dialogue. So I just feel right now it's more of congregations just pouring out what they're feeling. And I would just like to hear more from some of you gentlemen there.

God's Kingdom we've experienced even through these times when there have been I'm going to say divisions that we have still experienced at our meetings and our gatherings. For example, the board members workshop

In the minister's camp that some of us were able to attend, we've experienced joy and unity and fellowship. And there have been times through these last years where we have also heard division.

And we are not encouraging division even this evening and in Jim's speech I join with his thoughts that he expressed. And we wanted to come to call, not to cast out. Some have left other congregations and they did not find peace there and I

And yet, we still want to call that we could travel as one united flock of believers. In Deuteronomy, it is written that today, maybe I should just read it as opposed to paraphrasing

The words that came to mind hearing one of the comments that was made here, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life that both thou and I see may live. I have felt that there have been those

Speeches made and one of the meetings was referenced here, I forget, maybe it was the December meeting, I don't remember, where there were numbers of speeches made by those present and even online and they didn't seem to join with the others.

They seem to me to be a different voice than I hear amongst the believers. And so that is the reason that we come, is to call, not to push out. But we feel the divine, and you heard tonight how you also feel the divine. And I believe that

It is a loving call of the Holy Spirit. And I also appreciate those comments of choosing, how each one of us would choose. And I know it is God that chooses us. And it is God that allows us to hear His call.

And then we pray that we would be able to answer that call and continue to travel together with his children. Those are weak thoughts that I wanted to express here, but we have not come to

Cause the division, the division is evident, but we have called, we have wanted to come to call, to come and return and walk together with us.

I think we have a list here. Looks like it's, is it Risto? Are you next on the list? And then Tuula after that. And Sanna. And after that, another hand.

Bruce, Bruce, sorry. And then I just wanted to, if I can, I wanted to mention again that the LLC brought us to come to this meeting. There was a letter, I don't know, can you hear me okay? Okay.

They wrote a letter that preceded this meeting and I just want to, I think it's very honest and reasonable to consider that this letter specifically states that this meeting would not be about further discussion and debate. And I think if I understand that correctly, there's

There's a time and place, and certainly there's a lot of topics that could be uncovered tonight, but I truly believe that all of us here at Minneapolis congregation

We're looking for a way to move forward, and I think we should just try to hear what's been said. Both Jim and Jim have given some insight that we've asked for, and I think it's worth considering that we should keep this discussion focused on what we all agreed upon.

And so I just wanted to make that comment, but certainly everybody has free will to say what they will, but perhaps we should consider the terms that were provided in that letter. I just wanted to make a couple of comments.

I confess my own faith and also share some of the observations that I've made. For myself, I know I've said a lot of things and probably offended a lot of people.

I carry that old man. I often feel that. I have to ask, is there a room in God's kingdom for a sinner like me? And before I start,

I just want to be forgiven. It's like the song says, Christ is the way, he is the life. It is through him and him only that I have the hope of salvation.

I have to say I felt a lot of peace. I don't feel like I have a whole lot of questions. I feel like my questions have been answered. And that has been through the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ. I don't see it any other way.

I thought I'd read a portion of Matthew's ninth chapter.

And he entered into a ship and passed over. He came into his own city. And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on the bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer. Thy sins be forgiven thee.

And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether it is easier to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee, or to say, Arise and walk?

But that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins. Then saith he to the sick of the palsy, Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house. And he arose and departed to his house.

And when the multitudes saw him, they marveled and glorified God, which had given such power on man. And another portion here said, And Jesus passed forth from thence. He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the receipt of customs. He said to him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.

They came to pass as Jesus sat at meat in the house. Behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your master with publicans and sinners?

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that behold need not a physician, but they that are sick. Going down a little further, he says, While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler and worshipped him, saying,

My daughter is even now dead, but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Jesus arose and followed him, and so did his disciples. And the older woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him and touched him.

She said within herself, if I may but touch these garments, I shall be a man. How did Jesus react to that thought? He didn't drive them away.

[unclear paraphrase of Matthew 9:20-22] he said, daughter, be of good comfort. My faith had made me whole. And the woman was made whole in that hour. This is not our kingdom. It's God's kingdom.

It is this kingdom that Christ himself instituted. And when I think about this, that I just read, I just wonder, is there room in God's kingdom for a congregation full of sick people?

And yet I ask that ye, still held as a believer, believe my faith. Either Tuula or Sanna.

I'm on kitchen duty tonight and I want to tell everybody that there's coffee lunch served at the overflow so you can go to get a coffee and some drinks there. But then I want to thank God for this evening that he has given us this opportunity to speak up

And I'm very fearful with my words. Because I feel that my words have been twisted.

And to end many times, to mean something what I didn't mean. I think that this might be

Our last opportunity to confess our faith. And I pray that God gives me words.

I thought that I just share my own thoughts. And if possible, I want that I be corrected right away, that I don't hear that correction in sermons afterwards or those twisted words and synopsis or other meanings. I want that you, dear LLC brothers, if you hear

Warren voice in my words. You come to talk to me? That's how it is supposed to be done in God's kingdom. I'm not here battling against God's kingdom. It's never been my will. It's never been my need. It's never been

Anything I thought I would do, I have no reason. God's kingdom is still dear to me and I think that it's dear to everybody here in Minneapolis. Why I've been speaking up in the meetings is that I hear and I see

Things what are not correct and what are not how God's kingdom supposed to work. And if you brothers don't see it, I'm asking you, is the wrong in my side or is the wrong in your side? If

There's been actions or words that are against God's word, what Bible teaches. Where's the fault? Is it my fault or is it my sin if I break those actions and words up? Or are you hurt because you may be at some level

Recognize the wrongdoings you've done. I don't understand. Usually if there is a fight or debate or ongoing trouble, as it's been here for a hundred and five, usually both sides feel some

Some weakness or simpleness or maybe some kind of understanding that we all can error. That none of us are sinless, errorless, perfect. I don't know.

When I think of this meeting and this setting that we came here tonight and it was said on that letter that this is the last call

And last time to discuss of these matters, I thought that this is really weird. Because I feel like have we even get to the points where our faith differ?

Have we ever discussed of those things? Have we gone to the Bible and see what Bible says? Have we been there? I... I don't know.

Then when I think of the goal of this evening was or it was said in the letter to how to move forward and I just can feel that we are all so tired. But God's not tired. He can give us strength to go through these times.

And he can give us right words to say. Now I don't say this that my words are correct and right. I just feel like it comes from flesh when we say that the participation is running out. How we know

That it's God's time for separation. If I think of a way forward, I'm thinking that... Can we call for a break? That we could put our trust in God.

We could let God heal us and heal each other. It seems like there is some huge misunderstanding somewhere along the way. I think that if we just, everybody,

We would concentrate to hear what God is saying. We would find a way. That the Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations would be served with God's word. That we would be given those healing words

And through God's word, we would be given understanding. If we now decide, or if you

In the LLC or I don't know who that, who's the person who makes the decision that the Minneapolis and Wolf Lake will be cut off from North American Zion. I don't think that it solves any problems. Because seed of heresy is in every heart.

And we all need to fight against that sin, that it doesn't get rooted and it doesn't grow in our hearts. There's been many sermons where has been preach of heresy and division and

Pick the side. It just doesn't feel like it comes from Holy Spirit. It has said many times here tonight that Holy Spirit gathers and enlightens through God's Word. And if

That God's word is missing, then there is no Holy Spirit. They don't work separate. They work always together. I also feel my own sinfulness and doubt.

Doubts and fears, I want to ask if I still can believe. Next we have Sanna. Okay, so first I just wanted to say to the guys from the LLC that I really appreciate that you're here.

And I would like if you could please tell the rest of the LLC board and anyone that supported you coming that I personally and I'm sure the rest of us are very grateful and appreciate you coming. When I first heard that we're having this meeting, I was optimistic because this is conversation and my hope is that it

We'll open a path or maybe be like the first step toward, you know, the way forward, resolving misunderstandings, correcting wrongs, forgiving, and continuing in unity. Or finding a way back to unity, maybe.

So, I don't have very many ideas as to how we could do that, but I would really like to hear from the LLC and everyone, how do we move forward? I know you asked us to repent individually, but I'm not clear as to what, you know, how can we show that we want to believe?

I don't think we should even have to think about how do we convince the LLC that we want to believe because it's God. It's God who knows our hearts. It's hurtful when

I or we hear things that we need to repent without clarity on what exactly we need to repent. It causes, of course for me, you know, I have pride. It causes me to feel proud or defensive. But I have doubts then too.

As a mom, it's hard for me to explain to my teenage kids why did Jesus teach and talk and preach to prostitutes and to criminals and to lowly people, but yet we don't get ministers here. The ministers won't serve us. So are we worse than the criminals that Jesus taught?

I know I'm sinful. And I feel that Jesus would have taught me. That's the Jesus I believe in, one that was very loving, very patient, infinitely wise,

So, I guess my question is, after you leave here tonight, could you consider sending us ministers so that we can continue to hear God's word? And I also, I guess, finally want to say that while we have had, or I personally have had doubts and I have felt sinful,

I have been so thankful for this congregation and I have felt so much peace despite the conflict. I have felt that God has carried us and has not forsaken us. Can I also believe my sins for doing?

Next is Lynelle. Okay, Lynelle. Yeah, and then, not to put any of you on the spot, but I was wondering if there was a couple of questions about how would we, as a congregation,

You know, I guess I'll paraphrase, but just show that we're sincere about trying to resolve this. And Jim, you also mentioned that it made a lot of sense, it was very clarifying when you said you're not asking a congregation to repent.

And that made a lot of sense to me when you said that, but if you could maybe just expand a little bit more. I think that question has come up. And then also Tuula, and this is just a thought, but she said something about would it be possible instead of discussing separation, what about a break, I think was the word she mentioned. And I think all that means is we're seeking to be served.

This meeting was important for two years. This meeting hasn't occurred and here it is. And I think we are being served, but is there a way for us to continue to be served? So I just wanted to point out those were questions and maybe we should allocate some time and not put anybody on the spot if those could be touched on.

Go ahead if anyone wants to speak to those points. I can wait. They said to go ahead first. Okay. Well, I just first also wanted to thank the representatives from the LLC for coming here tonight. It might not have been easy for you guys to come with how our congregation has been portrayed.

But you are welcome here and are among believers. Our congregation doesn't close the door to anyone. And I was really glad to hear that you don't want to push anyone out and that you aren't pushing for heresy. So that's really nice to hear that that's not the case. Now tonight, you have heard how

People here have spoken, you know, each in their own way. They've shared their confession of faith. How we here believe on the merit work of Christ and are personally believing our own sins forgiven and have the desire to continue believing. Many people have asked for their own sins and faults forgiven and the gospel has been preached.

So it'd be really helpful to not promote division if people would stop saying the divide is wider or that we don't see this as the golden candlestick or that we don't hear the voice of the Good Shepherd and things like that.

Now if there is an understanding or a belief that you hear that is different than how you believe, I think that would be okay to discuss or actually good to discuss. But to just talk about division or a foreign voice without explaining what you believe differently isn't helping. It's dividing.

So instead could we look for where there's unity in believing our sins forgiven because Christ died for me personally and in recognizing that God's kingdom is here among us. And you could leave this meeting truthfully saying that we in Minneapolis acknowledge that we are sinners.

Yeah, we want to hear the gospel and still endeavor to believe. And as we've said many times, we do not want to go a new way or be separated from the rest of God's children. So since we both say we don't want anyone pushed out or lost, and I know you said you didn't feel further discussion of the issues at this time would be helpful.

Then I think there's only one option and way forward. But it's a good option. It's the way the Bible teaches us and the way I think we all as believers want to act. And it's the way forward with the mind of Christ. It's to truly forgive each other.

We know concerns, rebuke, accusations, however we want to call them, have been made against individuals, boards, and the LLC. We also know that concerns, rebuke, and accusations have been made against individuals, many speakers, and the Minneapolis congregation. Many, many faults have been found.

We know words and actions have caused events and deep pain. We know this. We know we are all sinners. Yet we all want to believe. And we believe there is power in the gospel. That although we're sinful, God forgives us and sees us as having acceptable through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus when we believe.

So this is the way we can move forward with forgiveness. Preaching the gospel to each other. Loving and supporting and encouraging each other. Lifting and caring each other with patience. And even more forgiveness. That's what we can do. And we can leave the rest to God. Preach the word. Love God. Love our neighbor.

God gives the increase. If someone hears and believes the gospel and confesses to believe, we want to carry them as a believer. We want to put the best construction on our brothers and sisters. We need to humble ourselves and not doubt another's faith or attempt to judge hearts. And God promises to help us.

When we want to believe and follow Jesus, he has promised that no man can pluck us out of his hand. And even if there would be someone among us who doesn't believe, tares among the wheat, Jesus instructs us to let them grow until the harvest, until he comes to gather his own. So we can and we have cared for our own sins and offenses.

We can't demand anything from anyone else. And I know I've spoken up at meetings and maybe say things that I shouldn't, but may have caused offense, and I'm sorry for my part for all the offenses I've caused. I don't understand everything, but one thing I know is that I still want to believe.

Can you all forgive me? Here.

Coming here tonight helps us save and hear the term, LLC, then. It's felt better to hear LLC brothers. As one of the new members called to serve on this board, I can only share my own experience coming there to serve. It's not a duty that any of the brothers have sought for.

Our desire never to serve God's congregation as we've been asked. And I've gone there now this one year. I've not heard harsh words towards any applicants or local faith. I've not heard accusations. But I've heard many prayers of sorrow on where we are. And no wise answers, no wisdom,

No LLC decision that we'll decide. We could decide nothing. The LLC board doesn't control God's kingdom. God controls and guides His kingdom. When we think about this matter of heresy, none of us desire a heresy. We know God's word says there must be heresies among you. That's spiritual. We've heard God's word tonight, and we

Dear brothers and sisters, all feel the pain of these years, and we've heard the plea to come and serve. I just have to share last night, I know I'm both late, but I'll share the psalm again here of one that's grown up in a divided house. When you think about it, there's, I grew up in a house that had

A parent that was lost in the [heresy], in the last major [heresy]. And a parent that was able to remain believing. There's only God. Grace to God. But what can I say? Take a step. Church, help us children to see that this is truly God's kingdom. This is where the gospel is preached. This is where the Lord Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

And it was then when one gets older to realize, well, my other parents came in another faith. Is that faith the correct faith? I'm sure that question came to all my students. Confirmation time is that time of, how do I believe? It's not how my parents believe, but how do I believe in which faith is correct? The same Gospels preach there, my other parents' faith. The same Word of God is spoken from, from the pulpit.

Many things are the same, the same doctrine in many ways. But there's a different spirit. There's only one holy spirit. And we know that even this thing of where one spirit and one faith, one body of Ephesians is paraphrasing there. So when we think of these words, our brother shared that the spirit doesn't divide. I say amen to that. God's spirit doesn't divide. But neither does it coexist with a spirit that's not of itself.

The Holy Spirit doesn't battle against itself. It is a spirit of unity and peace. And that's the plea and the pain that we feel. Because we don't feel the same exact spirit, dear brothers and sisters, brothers and sisters, it's a sin if we don't go and serve.

We know that this wasn't the start of the battle. It goes back. I don't know these answers, but I can only speak from one from a faraway congregation. That's sort of what's happened in the Midwest in the heat of the battle. Husbands and wives have separated. Some have stayed in the other sister congregations. Some have come here. Many left the congregation here and went to find out the other sister congregations. That's the divide that happened.

Then other outside congregations are about to ask, well, which is correct? Where is it from? And I have to say, in my heart, it's felt that the Holy Spirit still guides God's congregation. When we were under services this recent year, ski days, and around time, the believers have many prayers here for you brothers and sisters tonight. The prayers are here. They want you to come and to be able to believe, to repent,

When I repent them, we can't tell you, only God knows the hearts. God can touch any heart, but we, brothers and sisters, can't any longer. But we hear that, so there's two groups, which is, where am I? How do I find myself? So, dear brothers and sisters, from the God's kingdom that the gospel is preached,

It hasn't changed. God's word is still held dear and mere. I hear that, I mean, you brothers and sisters can drag me if I'm wrong, but while there are services, there are precious services, there are good services. There's gatherings here visiting about scourge and abuse. That's too to be foreign to God's kingdom. I know there's been pain and sorrow. We heard from the view sisters in the letter. There has been much pain. And that's not something that God's children desire to do. The spirit doesn't abuse.

But it doesn't coexist with the spirit that doesn't answer. And that's what we wrestle with. None of us are able, of our own wisdom or strength, to be able to serve or to tell. It either answers or it doesn't. When the believers around Zion feel that same unity, it is a unity, it's a peace. And so, dear brothers and sisters,

Humble prayers for the gospel. You can believe this message of the gospel. Be able to care for matters. Believe the gospel in Jesus' name. One, this precious message that sounds forth from God's kingdom. We hear again and again, your sins are forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. And this is the message that tonight you can believe if you desire it. We just have so many prayers.

Don't have answers. And when will there be real know? God's the one that knows that. Many prayers arise to our Heavenly Father that he could help. We all desire to believe. We're all jumping on that half day out with the same goal of eternal life.

Bruce. Can I say that, Jim? So you said earlier that individuals repent of their own conditions. And I just want to say that I've had critical thoughts. I've had critical thoughts in my heart about brothers in faith.

I know that repenting is choosing to, I think somebody said it in the way forward, and I want to know that from my own heart and from my critical thoughts. Can I believe my sin is forgiven? I think Bruce was next. All right, can you hear me? Speak close. The ear is right here.

Okay, well, I'd like to thank the LLC brothers also for being here. One of the things that I had did, you know, it's been quite a few years where you knew there were problems, so I went to the LLC website to see how we knew belief. The first sentence there is the Holy Bible and the Lutheran Confessions.

And then it goes on to explain it after that. I'd never heard of the Lutheran Confession, so I did a Google search, because they don't sell it at the bookstore. And you can buy it online. And then I went to the SRK website. How do they believe it's the Holy Bible and the Lutheran Confessions? And then I got a BibleMes article from whatever jukman it is.

In 2017 with the SRK and he really was pushing that the SRK stay within the teachings of the Lutheran Confessions. So I spent a little time reading the book and here's where I run into a problem is there are many, many sermons that I've heard at local churches

Around that have messages that are contrary to the Lutheran confessions. And I've been looking to discuss that with people because the Book of Concord is called, the actual name is called the Book of Unity.

When you go through the book, even like for instance it's not serving with ministers here, that's addressed in the Solid Declaration. I would say that they don't agree with the not sending ministers. That was a controversy at that time.

So if we look at that and then we look at these matters of doctrine that are not in accordance with the Lutheran confessions, there's a big section in there also on how this is not accepted within the church.

These matters are all addressed individually and there is agreement made very, very clearly on each item. So if we go back to our church, each church in their bylaws says they go off the Augsburg Confession.

In the Augsburg Confession, to have unity within the church, we would have to agree on the doctrine of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments. For years now, I've heard there's division, but we can't put our finger on it. I'm not sure today anyone could actually say they could put their finger on it. I'm telling you, I could come up with 20 fingers

Thank you. Thank you. My question is, is that a concern amongst the LLC board, that the teachings are more Calvinistic, Catholic, Mormon, with a real Donatist bent to a lot? It's a concern of mine. It's been a huge concern of mine.

So as far as unity within the congregations, I find that it's gonna be tough to do when there's not a unifying message that's being taught or preached. I'm asking from the LLC board, who more than likely is not even aware of this, is this something that we should turn to to straighten out

That in itself, I believe, would bring unity to the congregations. When there's this constant my spirit doesn't answer to that spirit without any type of disagreement on an issue, it's really, really concerning to me.

So we all know that the old paths are the Holy Bible and the Lutheran confessions. Is that a path we're willing to look at going forward? We had a comment in front.

Brothers and sisters, if you don't mind, I'll stand up. It's the old teacher in me that I like to look at who I'm talking to instead of talking behind my head. First of all, I ask that you hear my words with charity because

I'm sure it goes without saying, but in front of you now is a sinner who feels my own sinfulness and likings, but I want to speak openly with you. First to just address a couple of things.

I hope to correct them. There was a statement made earlier that I said in my opening remarks that you folks in Minneapolis have turned away from Christ. I didn't say those words. And I think those of you who heard me here can attest to that, that those were not words that I uttered. There was a question about

John's comment about disconnect, I don't know how to answer it because I don't know really what he's referencing, but I can tell you this, that in recent years we have worked so closely with the brothers and sisters in Finland and Sweden, SRK board, SFC board, the staff's there,

And we have all marveled at the unity of faith and spirit that exists. And so I'm not clear on what

What disconnect would be there, but it hasn't been our experience in that mutual work. And I have been so thankful for it because we have benefited so much from being able to work together. We know that God doesn't give his gifts to any one person.

He spreads his gifts throughout his kingdom, and the Spirit works through not one or two, but through the gifts that are distributed. There was a question asked about, I don't know if I can accurately paraphrase it, but about how does a

Is there a decision that is made about declaring a separation or some such thing as that? I don't have any kind of simple answer for that except to say that that's not a decision of man. It's God's doing. If we try to draw lines and make judgments, it's going to be wrong.

It's not a decision of a board or of a person or of a small group of people. It's God's doing. But we know that it has happened historically. As I spoke to you earlier, my own self, that I found myself outside of God's kingdom in a heresy. And those have happened. And the Bible says that they must happen.

Those are the words found in the Bible. How God does it, how he draws those lines and identifies that, I wouldn't even pretend to answer that. I don't understand it all. I want to put it in God's hands and let him make those kinds of judgments. God knows our hearts.

We can't look at each other and judge what's in each other's hearts. That's not for man to do. First of all, I want to say also that it has felt very good to me to hear from some of you who have spoken your thanks for us coming here.

We haven't come here as some sort of rulers or lords or wise people, but like I said earlier, empty vessels and trembling in many ways. It feels good to hear your words of appreciation. It's encouraging to me personally to hear that.

The question was asked about, again I'll just paraphrase, but how to show somehow, how can it be shown to us or to others what's in the heart.

You know, first of all, I want to say, and I do it with Mark's words, that I have not heard in LLC board meetings nor other visits that I've had, I have not heard words of some sort of criticism of you folks here.

In fact, I was telling some of these brothers earlier that after I received the grace of repentance from the heresy, you know, there weren't many believers left in the copper country where I live. And the Minneapolis congregation was my home away from home. When we came to Minnesota the first times after repenting, this is where we came. And every time after that, this is where we came.

And when I came to work at the LLC office for a couple of years, this was the congregation we adopted during that time. It was like my home away from home. And I hope that you folks can see through weak words

And understand that we are only here in love for your undying soul. I don't want to be lost, and I don't want you to be lost. I've had some very nice visits with some of you, even in recent times.

Pat and I have had some talks that I have really appreciated, some long visits, heart-to-heart visits. Lynelle and Olli, you know that you invited me and Pat to your home. We spent an evening visiting. And even though not everything that we talked about, we didn't see it all exactly the same,

But it was a good visit, wasn't it? We were able to visit together openly. And I don't hear any criticisms directed at any of you personally. When it comes to taking care of matters of conscience, we don't have to somehow demonstrate or prove to anybody

God knows what's in our heart, God knows our conscience, and it's before Him that we want to be free of sin and offense. When the question comes up about the talk about division, well first of all I know that we've heard from some of you about this

This wondering about speakers not coming to serve here in Minneapolis, and I say honesty that I wasn't involved in any of those discussions that took place over here when those kinds of decisions were made. So I can't explain to you any of the rationale or anything. I only trusted that God's spirit guided, but I can't.

I don't understand it either. But I just say that, dear brothers and sisters, that's not what has separated us or caused the difference. But what has been troubling to me is when I have heard

What I have considered pretty strong and harsh criticisms against North American Zion quite broadly. We have been told, for example, that the teaching in North America is law-minded and in Finland it's grace.

I haven't experienced that. I've made many trips to Finland. I met regularly with brothers there. And the sermons I hear there and the sermons I hear here, they're the sermons of faith.

We have heard that there's this kind of strong, inappropriate governance of the House of God from local boards and from the LLC board.

I haven't experienced that. I can't acknowledge or agree with that. When I've been at LLC board meetings, I've felt like Marv explained earlier that I'm serving with servants. Sinful brothers acknowledge that an understanding is weak and often need to hear the gospel. The boards are servants. They don't hand down

Guidelines or rulings or edicts or anything like that. They're servants. And they serve the congregation in the way that Apostle Paul advised the elders at Ephesus so long ago. Take heed unto yourselves and unto the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers. It's a desire to serve.

Because when we serve each other, we serve the Lord Jesus Christ. Now back to that question about caring for matters. As I said, none of us is here to look into any of your hearts or see.

What's there, or are you sincere? There's nothing that has to be proved to any other person. But my question would be, if the believers here, the Zion here in North America, has looked to you to be faulty, if you have seen

Faults and flaws. You have seen wrong teaching. We were told at one meeting that the North American Zion has taught wrong for decades. For me, that fills out the whole foundation underneath. This has been a refuge for me. It's my refuge. It's where I trust my care. If the teaching here is wrong, where do I trust my care?

And so, to me the question is that we could each ask ourselves, and I say this to myself as well, have I seen

The North American Zion in this way. Have I criticized? Have I had bitterness in my heart? Have I felt anger? Have I felt that this Zion has gone astray with wrong teachings? Then maybe I need to ask myself, is it I?

You know, you remember when Jesus told the disciples when he was with them near the end of his life here and he told them, one of you will betray me? You remember what the disciples did? They didn't start to point and say it's probably you or you or you. The disciples began to tremble in themselves and ask, is it I?

I can't say what your sins are. I can say what mine are and what I need to take care of. But that's why repentance is a personal matter. I can't say I'm going to repent on behalf of the LLC board. I have to just take heed unto myself.

And God's kingdom is a kingdom of grace and forgiveness. Forgiveness is freely preached. It has been preached already here tonight. And I know how often I have needed to hear the gospel, and it has never been denied to me in God's kingdom. It has been freely preached.

And the path forward, when we think about the path forward, for me, it's not to look into the depths of the Book of Concord or to debate doctrinal matters. And I don't say those aren't important. One brother said, correct doctrine is like a protective shell around God's kingdom.

But faith comes by hearing the gospel. And that comes first. And so, you know, the only question I think for me tonight and for any of us is,

Like I said earlier, I don't know how to say it differently. Where am I? Are my matters in order? If I have wrongly arisen against the kingdom, have I taken care of that? If I have knowledge of offenses against any of you, have I taken care of that?

If I have done things in thought or word or deed that are contrary to God's word and have wounded my conscience, have I taken care of them? Fortunately, we live in a kingdom of grace where God protects us with his grace so that we don't fall from faith every time we sin or else it would be hopeless.

What hope would we have? Because we sin daily in thought, word, and deed. We live in a kingdom where we have this continuous protection of God's grace. And when we feel distressed by sin, we are able to care for those matters and put them away here

Already years ago when the prophet Zechariah saw the days of the suffering and death of Christ, he said in that day there shall be an open fountain in the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and defilement.

And there's an open fountain tonight also in God's kingdom. Thank God that there is. Where would we be otherwise? Because we are all sinners. So I just want to, from the heart, give this kind of encouragement. Let's not look as

Pat said earlier, let's not look at the faults that are elsewhere. I know very well that you don't have to look any farther than me if you want to find faults amongst those who serve. You can find plenty in me and I know that. I know my own nature. But it doesn't help us, does it, to see the faults of others.

You know what Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy? This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

I'm chief of sinners here, talking to you. I don't feel like I have wise words, but I just want to share what's in my heart, because it is my hope that none of you and your friends would be lost to a different life. And first and foremost, it's my hope that I will be.

I only want to be a child in this kingdom of children and one day reach the goal of heaven. There we are promised peace and joy eternally. But already here we can experience righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. I think it was Risto who asked earlier, is there room in this kingdom for sinners?

You know what I thought when he asked that? That's the only kind of person there is room for. It is a kingdom of sinful people, but pardon sinners. That's the beauty of God's kingdom. Let's not lose sight of that.

Let's not get tangled up in those criticisms and fault-finding and things like that and lose sight of the beauty of this fellowship. Our human pride, our sin-corrupt flesh, you know how it hinders us repenting, don't you?

It gets in the way. It's so hard. Why is it so hard to humble oneself in repentance? I have experienced it in my own home. Have you? When my wife and I have sometimes had some disagreements between us, and it's hard to say, I was wrong. I mean my sins. But when we're able to humble to repentance,

You know how I have always felt? Why did it take so long? Why was that so hard? Forgiveness is so simple. Why is it so hard? Well, all I can say is that we don't preach forgiveness to a congregation, but it's preached to penitent sinners. So,

Dear friends, I just wanted to share that song with my heart, and like I said at the beginning, I hope you hear my words with charity, because I know they are weak. I feel that even in speaking them, but I just feel the need to share hope in them with you. Thanks for listening.

There's a switch. Slide it up. Nice and close.

All right, there we go. I guess first, thanks for having us here tonight. And also, I bring greetings with me from Finland, where I'm living this past year. We'll be returning to Canada this summer, but we've been living with my family there in Finland, and I bring greetings

And I also noticed a comment about Finland. And my personal experience and the experience of my family has been that the believers there believe the same as the believers here.

There has not been a disconnect between the message I have heard spoken in North America and the message that is spoken and discussed in [Finland]. And it struck me when we have heard that in North America we speak too much of the endeavor

And when I went to Finland and settled in Turnava, the first introduction that I was asked to serve with was, I was given the task to introduce the topic of the endeavor of faith. The endeavor of faith there is the same as the endeavor of faith

And both the believers there and here wish to remain in the word of scripture and relying upon God's grace through the gospel of forgiveness of sins. And yet,

We have heard that tonight as the understanding here except for a few comments or I would say the

There have been some comments that have said that this North American Zion does not believe correctly. But yet I think for the most part there has been this feeling that we wish to believe the same. But nevertheless the spirit has been troubled in our midst.

And it feels to me, as I was reading the

The Bible, we certainly don't read enough, but I am on a leave from work with a special project, so I tried to take a little bit extra time to read the Bible. And I recently was in Ezekiel, and the words that are recorded there came to my mind as I was listening tonight.

And it's recorded in this way that in their setting of their threshold by my thresholds and their post by my posts and the wall between me and them they have defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed wherefore I have consumed them in my anger. And that

The picture there is those posts are so close to each other, and the doors are so close to each other, yet it looks like they go into the same room, and yet they go into different rooms. And this feels that this is where we are, that it's hard to see and to pick

And that's where we need to rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the understanding in God's congregation. And so we heard, do we trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding the decisions?

Even those decisions which do not seem to make sense to ourselves, that how could it be that a congregation would not be sent servants to preach? That we cannot even ourselves understand, but are we willing to accept and believe that that was guided by God's Holy Spirit?

And so then we have heard that it feels that God's Spirit is speaking in the congregations around North America and has sent letters here to Minneapolis and also in other

Congregation discussions that we have heard, that it is feeling, and we don't know when that time is, as many have said, but it is beginning to feel that the Holy Spirit is calling now to repentance. There was a time where there was not this clear message to repent, but there was a spirit of discussion and seeking and listening.

But now it feels that the Holy Spirit is guiding towards this. That is it soon time where God will no longer call? We know that God will always call to those who wish to repent. But is it possible that he would no longer give us ears to hear? And we

I would say the believers in North America who have been close to the battle. And I trust that those also who I have spoken with in Finland.

We wish that none would be lost, but yet we fear and we feel that there is this division. And last week in Turnava there was a presentation about the history of God's Zion. And in there we heard much about how God's kingdom has been a battling kingdom through the ages.

And yet how God throughout has preserved the unity of faith and love. And how I remember a quote and it struck me and I feel that as I have now come to visit

The United States of America for the first time in two years through the pandemic and my time in [Finland]. How this country is a place of plenty of opportunity and they came here because of that. And how they had noted that even though America is an amazing place,

It's not so amazing that there could dwell two spirits of God in the same place, that there could be two kingdoms of God. And we wouldn't want it to be such, because we know that would not be a true kingdom. And so that's why we have come here sent with many prayers from the believers around Zion, that dear friends,

We have in the past served together, broke bread together, and worshipped together. And yet we now feel that there is a division, there is a difference that both sides have felt and admit.

And so we have come here, that if you hear, if you find that you have, as Jim already said, and maybe I don't need to repeat, but if you, as you and each of us examine our hearts, that God would open to us where we have error.

And that he would give us humble hearts to hear, to accept, and to believe. And that is the way forward through the gospel of the forgiveness of sins. And if I could, I would also say to you

You who are puzzled and confused, wondering that where could be the right way. Maybe you have wished to listen to both sides and hoped that you could choose the right way.

I don't know if this message has come to your congregation, but it has been spoken at the nationwide meetings.

And I would wish to share to you of the danger to remain if those who are firm in their ways and contend to continue in a different understanding and a different

I would say and I would sign the mutual love of the rest as I am here. If those do not find themselves, then for you, your place would be to flee. To go to where you can find peace and unity with God's children. This is the message that I

I have felt as I listened to the speeches tonight, and I've also thought of some portions of God's word, that God says that whom I love, I chasten,

It is not true love to just look past differences and hope that they will go away. But Jesus himself said there to the angel of the church in Laodicea, that whom I love, I chasten.

And I've also really felt that the divisions that we have experienced are not the reason, are not caused by personal offenses.

They've been caused by some deeper root that I don't understand, we don't understand, but God knows. And we pray that that could be revealed and that those who find themselves in those places could get the [grace of] repentance.

We've also heard how the Holy Spirit only brings people together. It only unites God's children. And this is how I believe as well. So then when it doesn't unite, where does that put it? It does not unite those of a different spirit. And Jesus himself spoke in this way that he said,

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I come not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me. And he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life, for my sake, shall find it. Jesus said to his own, that peace I give unto you, my peace I leave with you, not as the world give I unto you. Let not your hearts be troubled.

In God's kingdom, the unity of spirit draws us together and through the one understanding and mutual. And Jesus gives that peace to his own, not as the world. And also then he speaks here that he came not to send peace on earth,

I came not to send peace, but a sword. And this is the division that goes between even individuals, as Marv spoke of from his own experience, that this is God's work. And we would then ask for ourselves, but where am I? That I, personally,

Could care for my own faults and sins and be preserved in the unity of God's congregation.

I join with Bob with thoughts expressing, as the other LLC brothers have said, that you have invited us to come and visit and that you have thanked us for coming and has

Well, I guess not been an easy thing to think about coming. And as Jim Frantti said, I trembled too. But it's been really nice to be here and see so many of you and dear old friends as well.

And I join wholeheartedly with the speeches that the two Jims and Marv and Carey have kept. And I guess I ask for the speaking turn not really knowing

What to say specifically, but just a couple of thoughts that have been on my mind as I've listened to the discussion.

I suppose the first thought, and I know this has been a struggle here in Minneapolis, this question why ministers aren't being sent here. And I guess I joined with Jim Frantti and didn't really understand the decision either, but I wanted to be

I just humble and adhere the thoughts of the other brothers and sisters in the Southern Minnesota congregations in the care and the concern of the situation.

And I guess one, in some of those meetings, the Southern Minnesota meetings this past October and the previous October, Jesus' command to go and preach has been referred to in that by not following this command that this is sin.

On the one hand, when the believers in the local congregations visited about the matter and they came to this conclusion that it felt good to the Holy Ghost and to us to make that decision, then I

I did not want to put myself in a position that would be outside the understanding of the other believers. But then, as Carey was referring to, there's been a lot of study of history of Laestadianism, and I also find a lot of that interesting.

And this thought from the small firstborn heresy and those discussions, especially I suppose 1934, those three speaker brothers from Finland who came and served those in open heresy here, they were warned not to go, that to do so would be going outside the love of the believers.

And I don't mean to say that now the Minneapolis congregation or the Wolf Lake congregation is a congregation in open heresy, but this thought was expressed that, and those brothers who went referred to that mission command, that Jesus commanded to go and preach, and that's end of story.

And in those meeting minutes, this thought came out, and maybe it was Vaino Havas even or one of the other brothers who spoke in this way, that yes, Jesus did give this mission command to go and preach.

But he also gave another command, which is more important. This command that, as John records in the 13th chapter, that a new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another.

And I suppose it was stated in those times, in those meetings that the fault was putting the mission command ahead of the command of love. And to me that helped

Helped me feel comfortable with this thought that I'm in the footsteps of the former she and my understanding isn't different from that. And in that way too then, I suppose,

The actions that were taken, as Pat alluded to, sometimes for ourselves can feel harsh and unloving when the intent and the desire is only out of love. That love would be restored and then the work could go forward together. And

I also have pondered this thought that, as was expressed, that we must understand the doctrine of justification the same. And I agree, as the brothers spoke, that we are saved by the merit work of Christ, that he died for our sins.

But as Vila Sudari spoke when he preached from Hebrews chapter 6, he spoke in this way that this doctrine of justification is one with the doctrine of the congregation. That just as Moses, when he anointed Aaron to be priest, he did it at the door of the tabernacle. And this gospel is preached only from the kingdom of God.

That it isn't in this way that I can believe that Christ is my Savior wherever, and it doesn't matter what church I go to, but that there is one kingdom of God, one congregation of God. As Luther says, if you wish to find Christ here on earth, you must find his congregation, where those believers are who believe on him, because they are the body of Christ.

And as Jim mentioned, it feels that this doctrine and understanding of the congregation is one where

There has been different perspectives on that. I have felt that the Kingdom of God and the North American Zion is my home and my refuge, and others see the Kingdom of God and the North American Zion quite differently and describe it in terms that I don't recognize. But I have found that there, even though I have fallen into sin and

And I have done things I shouldn't have said, weak words, that yet there the gospel has been preached whenever I would have asked, and I have never been denied it. And then this thought of patience, and we know that God is a patient and a loving God.

And I only need to look at myself to see how God has been patient with me when I have stumbled and fallen and battled. But yet, and then we heard of how Noah preached for 120 years.

And yet God spoke at that time that my spirit shall not always strive with man, for he is also flesh. That is, that we wouldn't provoke God or tempt him, but that we would, as we heard in Jim's opening comments, today if you hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Noah preached for 120 years but there also came the time in the wilderness journey when Korah and his followers rose up and I don't know how many years they had visits but there did come a time when Moses, God told Moses to go and tell them to depart from the tents of those wicked men and touch nothing of them lest ye be consumed in all their sins.

God does set bounds to his time of visitation and Luther spoke how the time of visitation goes as a rain cloud. It has been, did he say, in the promised land and in Turkey and has now been in Germany and who knows where it will go. But we know that it can also leave our midst if we are rebellious and do not obey his voice.

And thus, I join with the other brothers that if we can hear his voice and humble ourselves and ask, where am I and how are my matters and can I travel with the unity of the flock of God's children in North America, that then I could also be preserved.

And Carey referred to how Jesus said, I have not come to send peace but a sword. And I thought of that part of, or that psalm where the psalmist writes that

And it has sometimes felt that way in those meetings, that I am for peace, but when I speak, they are for war. That when children of God would have spoken, there have been those that have battled against that voice of what the believers have understood.

And so I also joined with the other brothers that we could personally care for our own matters and we can be preserved in the unity of God's congregation and not be lost.

We do have Anne Millett, Anne Marks, and a number of other folks on the list. If you could just raise your hands one more time. I could go forever. Forever.

I just took a bathroom break and now I feel like I need to collect my thoughts. I would like to thank your brothers from the LLC for coming here and

This meeting has brought up many different feelings and thoughts. I didn't know what to expect, but I had this feeling that you brothers came here

With the thought that we are not believers and it has come through in your comments that perhaps you don't feel that we are believers and that that hurts my heart because

I have only wanted to endeavor to believe and I feel like I have not left faith. And to me that's just, it just feels very hurtful. And then also now in hearing all of your comments,

And calls for repentance. I heard tonight many, many people that have expressed the desire to believe and to travel as one with North American Zion, which is my desire as well. But in your comments it feels like maybe you don't believe us. And so I don't know what to do.

All I can say is that I want to believe and I have a desire to believe. And if that is not acceptable, then what else am I to do? And I guess my only comfort is that

Our Heavenly Father knows my heart and he knows that I want to believe. Even if others don't believe me, that I want to believe and that I want to travel in North American Zion with all the other believers, with God's kingdom, at least God knows. I don't know if you recognize how

Traumatizing that feels to have you come here and speak as though we are all on the outside of the flock. And I hope that I'm not offending any of you by bringing this up.

I've stayed out of the fray for much of what has gone on over the years. And truly, if I'm fighting against God's kingdom, I would like to know how. Because I would want to care for that offense. It just feels like when we hear Minneapolis tonight have

As for the gospel, it feels like it's not enough. And it's very, very troubling. What else are we supposed to do? All God requires is that we have the desire to believe. Why can't that be accepted?

This causes big doubts. And I would just like to say that I want to believe. Can I hear the gospel? So to Sam Roiko's point about justification, he was talking about different spirits.

My wife and I have been put into what we call like, what he says like, I would be in that different spirit group.

And Sam, I know you might be surrounded with different people that might tell you that, oh yeah, that's a correct way of believing. I believe what you just said, that we are saved by Christ in that. The believers, we do preach the gospel to each other from God's kingdom within that. I personally believe that, and

For people that have surrounded you, other believers, maybe they're telling you that that is acceptable, but I have lost friends. I haven't been included with other believers because they say that you have a messed up view of faith, that if you believe on Christ like that, then that's attacking God's kingdom, and have been told that even the devil believes on Christ or believes in Christ.

Sounds like you were accepted by other believers, but Garrett and his wife are not.

That is just something that I just, I don't know, to me it just doesn't seem fair. And I actually appreciate your comments, Sam, for clarifying that, how you believe on justification, because I believe that exact same way. And right now, or not right at this moment, but for the past few years, I've been put into a different spirit, or oppositioned,

Groove because that's how I believe so maybe if you could touch on that and like I said it's everyone has a different experience in God's kingdom and that has been my experience for the last few years and so I'd like maybe like to see if you guys could comment on that is that how you believe and if we all believe that way then I say like amen and I think this whole congregation would want to move forward and

Be with the rest of Zion. That's all I have, and I'd like to hear the Gospel.

I also would like to thank you brothers for coming here this evening. It really means a lot to us. It feels that there is a desire to listen to our side of the story. That feeling has not always existed.

When different things have happened, and I don't mean to pull any kind of, you know, finger-pointing things, but just the fact that when we have written letters, we've written those in sincerity, and they are not directed to people that we would like to hear our side of the story or our hearts intense,

So it's nice to have you here. Thanks for coming and taking the time to do that. And it's so nice to be able to discuss. And I think there's a lot of things we could discuss. But when I'm sitting here,

I feel really, really confused because I'm hearing that there's this message that we are battling and that there's a different spirit and the enemy has raised questions about basic teachings that's been mentioned at different meetings and a call to the return. This suggests to me that I am not [believing]. [Anne] kind of said that very nicely there.

But I understand or feel that the Holy Spirit dwells here as in all believers in the entire world. If we are truly battling, that means we battle God's Word. And that act is the root of a rebellious spirit. This is frightening to hear or consider.

That I can speak for myself, but I also would venture to guess that everybody here desires to hear the sincere milk of the word. And we understand that the Holy Spirit comes through the word. It's grounded in God's word. If we reject or diminish this word by speaking something different than it is,

And do this in the name of the Holy Spirit. This is rebellion against the kingdom, and these are actions of the enemy. I don't desire this, so I guess when I hear that perhaps we don't, or suggestions that maybe we don't have the Holy Spirit here, that means

Or that if we don't repent, we can't understand where we are, and that's a suggestion that we're lacking the Holy Spirit.

The church stands or is founded on the righteousness of Christ because he made it holy by his word. And God's word has the authority of him, God, and is the way that the Holy Spirit speaks to us individually and as a congregation.

And as it says of the role of the Holy Spirit in John, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears, he will speak. So this is not, this is God's word. And a point that maybe I've always, or has caused a bit of worry in my opinion, is this thing about the spirit, my spirit doesn't answer, or the spirit moved us to do these things.

And again, as I mentioned, the spirit is the word. And when Jesus was living on the earth, he said, he that hath an ear, let him hear. And then when he was no longer on the earth, he said, he that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit says. And that is what reflecting or going back to his words,

And in Revelations, there's a reference to a portion in Isaiah, and I'll just read it here. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and light, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord. Oh, I'm a little far. But anyways, it speaks of all the characteristics of this Holy Spirit all in one. Can I have my notes scattered here and there?

Anyways, okay, well, I'll just go on with whatever. But in all of this, when we're talking about having the Holy Spirit or not having the Holy Spirit, that to me equates to being a believer or an unbeliever. You're either in faith or unbelief. And that kind of goes back to the Garden of Eden where in paradise, before the fall,

Adam and Eve believed God, but then when the enemy came, they believed the enemy, which was, that's unbelief. And so in some ways, like I said, I'm kind of confused because I'm hearing these messages and then I'm hearing people are being blessed, but I'm still continuing to hear that. I feel like we haven't gone to some sort of clarity. So that brings me to the point of, I'm wondering, you have said,

That you are in unity and have conversation with the Finns and with the Swede people. I'm just curious what have been the things that you have shared with them as far as how you believe and maybe clearly there's been some sort of conversation or suggestion that maybe we don't believe that same way. I'd be curious to know what you have shared.

And then when they've mentioned that you've been patient and mentioned that this could result in leniency, this, it makes it sound like there are issues and matters that maybe you have discussed and maybe

I would say please feel free to specifically state what these are and then that kind of goes with the whole thing of there's been many discussions and meetings and I know last year at the May meeting there was a timeline that was presented and

We saw the dates that these events occurred and that they occurred where they might have been, but it would have been so helpful and so clarifying if we could have heard at this meeting, this is the topic that was discussed and these were the two understandings.

I think that we're wondering what is it that is incorrect in how we believe? Because I'm, like was just said, that I hear you talking about justification and that we want to believe on the merits of Christ.

What then is this that we don't understand? I don't feel that ever comes into clarity. And if there have been differences at these meetings, what are they? It would be really, really nice to know the two opposing are different understandings at these meetings.

And then just about the candlestick, to me, God's kingdom, the kingship of God, is where this golden candlestick is. And Christ himself is in the middle of it, with all the characteristics of the Holy Spirit as well.

And then as far as the way forward, I really like the idea that we would consider having a break where we can all just reflect and think about these issues. And of course, then looking to Christ, if we think about the stormy sea that's pictured in the Bible and how Jesus was able to calm the wind and the sea

And so it would be important for us to have this time to reflect and allow God to speak to each one of us. I guess I can only speak for myself too that it is my true desire to remain in God's kingdom. But it is very, very difficult when

I get this sense that perhaps I'm not believing correctly or I'm not doing something. And all I know is that I believe in God's promises. He has provided His Son for my sins as well and that I am a sinner as well. I think of a sermon that we heard about

That was so comforting to me about angels descending and ascending from heaven to earth to a person like myself and these angels bring this

The angels bring this message that this one wants to believe. That's so comforting. And we recently had a Bible class where

It was spoken about how Mary went to the tomb after Jesus had arisen and she was distressed that Jesus was not there anymore and Jesus appeared and talked to Mary and he said he goes to my father, your father,

That's what I desire. I want to have the same Father as Jesus. And somehow I just feel like there is just something in the way we can't have that. But I feel that I have my own heart to take away from this. I am a sinner. Perhaps I caused offense and want to take my own away from this. Can I still hear that my sins are forgiven?

Dan Kumpula. And then the lady next to Anne.

Patience. I feel comforted to see you brothers sitting here with us. And I want to [ask forgiveness] for all my [sins and] faults. I do feel confused.

There's a lot I don't understand. I feel afraid. I feel afraid. When things happen that cannot be explained. When decisions are made

That I don't understand. It makes me afraid. I want to ask the Lord. What was wrong with my brother when I was speaking? And I'm told that I'm questioning God himself.

This makes me feel afraid. I'm talking to a man and I'm confused. And I feel like I would want to be given an answer if I carried that brother as a brother in faith. The same as I would want to know if one of you weren't along to speak. What was better?

Why did that happen? Feelings caused a lot of grief in my heart. And I don't mean to be rebellious.

I don't want to leave and still travel with all of Zion in love. It's the things that have happened that have made me afraid. When I'm not able to answer or ask

But really, what's wrong?

Bringing up understandings that were wrong in the past is not a question of God's kingdom, Mary. But some of us have grown up with some teachings that were not correct. And through this time, we've been able to

I get clarity on those things and I've been thankful for that. But yet, it feels as though some of those matters that have been given clarity are also the matters that are being opposed. And that also causes confusion. I've been thankful for that.

Translations that the LLC has been able to do, it's given me comfort that yes, this is what I believe. And it's the same as what our brothers and sisters and family also believe. I feel afraid, though, hearing that some people would be of a different spirit.

And it brings memories back from childhood, and it makes me feel [fear]. I feel the Bible teaches us that we're to try the spirits, whether they be of God, whether they be of man, and that any spirit that doesn't confess that Christ is from the flesh is not of God.

I'm a child of God. I'm baptized as a child of his kingdom by the Holy Spirit. I believe in Jesus. I believe in God. I believe in the Holy Christian Church. I don't think that anyone has the authority to tell the believer that the Spirit

And if I've said anything wrong here, please convers with me correctly. And I would like to hear the Gospel again.

I think James and then Gary was next. I just wanted to make a quick comment that I know it's getting pretty late and we've all taken time to be here and that's much appreciated. At some point maybe we should recap on the evening but I'm in no hurry but I just wanted to put that out there and then James.

I would voice thanks also to you brothers in LLC for coming to visit with our congregation. I guess there's a question in my mind which keeps coming back, especially when Sam and Carey both spoke that the reason for not sending ministers to serve our congregation, if I understood correctly,

Sam said it's showing love. I guess I don't understand that Christ gave a very clear message in the mission command that we lead into the world and preach to all nations and all creatures. I don't understand how that could be love. And I know in Jeremiah he warns

From the 23rd chapter that, I can just read it here, that he says, Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord. Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people. You have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not visited them. Behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doing, saith the Lord.

And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries whither I have driven them, and I will bring them again to their folds, and they shall be fruitful and increase. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord. And to me this seems like a very serious

Offense against God not to go serve children of God who have been asking to hear the word of God. I know in Jeremiah, the third chapter, the 15th verse, God then promises that he says, and I will give you pastors according to my heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. So God has promised that he will always take care of his own

Another thing that to me has been very striking here tonight that there's been a call of repentance for my healthy brothers. But I would ask this question, and I ask it very sincerely, that do you find that you should be in a place of repentance also for your actions in these matters? I know myself, I have fallen miserably

And I have said stuff that I should not have said. I've become frustrated and spoken poorly. And at this time I would ask, can I believe all my sins and doubts for you? Then also I would like to share this, which we've shared with the congregation. We have visited with brothers

From Finland, on an ongoing basis since this, we are left without any ministers. We have asked that would they come and help us in this situation here in American Zion, especially with Minneapolis and Wolf Lake.

These brothers that we've talked to have promised that they would come if the LLC board would request it. I think that at this point now in this country, we're at a crisis situation where

Could we not request help from Finland to come here and let us visit about these matters which divide us? I can't see why that would not be one way to do it, to try to get outside help in a different perspective as far as dealing with these matters that confront us at this point.

I guess at this moment, that's all I have to say. Yeah, just real briefly here, I just wanted to take this turn to

I want to ask everybody here that because of ways that have fallen short and thoughts, words, and deeds in these discussions that we've had over the years that you could all forgive me.

Okay, that's me again, and again, I am not talking on behalf of Minneapolis congregation. But what I have felt today is lots of heartfelt comments of people's hearts, how they have decided to believe.

I hope that you are LLC brothers. I guess I offended you by saying LLC men, so sorry about that. I hope that you have felt that. There has been gospel preached.

And my question is, there's still that demand to repent, so is that gospel valid? Does it have power in your mind? And I'd like to get some nodding or shaking that if we, are we considered being believer and have we been able to get this true gospel of God, Jesus, in our hearts?

Or what is this demand? This might sound really harsh, and please forgive me ahead of time already, but I'm going to speak straight.

When people are here, they have to feel that they don't know if they believe, and they want to believe, and they're crying, and they have a plea in their hearts that they want to believe. And still there's a demand that, okay, they should repent, and everybody is...

Individually responsible about the faith, but then holding that place is somehow wrong and have the wrong spirit. So there's some kind of, I would say that there's a disconnect, conflict, and then also abuse. Because if you came here with your right heart, you would have come and said that you all can believe and we want to keep you as believers in our midst.

But you didn't. You came to demand that you repent or we don't call you as believers anymore. And that's not the right message. That's not the Holy Spirit. And this is hard, but this is what I need to say. And you need to look at yourself. This what's going on here is abuse. It's serious abuse. And it's traumatizing people right now in this moment.

And remember, this has been working hard, trying to help the people who are traumatized, and they have done tremendous work in that arena. But then people have to feel like they feel right here, right now. That's not how you should feel in God's kingdom. And when I look at some of those meetings that have been going on, those speeches have been recorded.

And your kids and your grandkids will read them. And they can see the judgment in those speeches. And when they are even justified with the Holy Spirit, it doesn't make it right. And even if you say that Minneapolis is all wrong, it has wrong spirit, it doesn't make it right to separate them.

Still your actions are wrong. And this is really strong, but I'm telling you that you will be remembered, but not in good terms. I am sorry, and I'm sorry that I offended, and this is really harsh. I still don't want to be named. Can I please?

Well, I just would like to join in saying thank you for the five of you brothers coming here. I know this has been a difficult time for everyone. Of course, it has been very difficult here. It has been difficult with many of my friends, family, and I'm sure it's been difficult for you all as well, I believe that.

I guess I've got a couple of things that I was just kind of thinking of and reflecting on what some of you had to say and I really have been trying to understand because I was genuinely confused when

The events took place that led to the place that we're at now, and what I'm specifically referencing is the Sunday, September 27, 2020, that our fellow believers decided to go to another congregation.

We weren't here, my family wasn't here when that all happened, so of course that was shocking to hear. And ever since we came home from visiting family that weekend, everything has been different. All of my friends left, majority of my friends left I should say, and there was just an incredibly awkward

Awkward situation with people that I've known my whole life, and now suddenly, on account of others' actions, there's got to be some sort of a difference in how we treat each other. So, I will say I felt incredibly hurt. I felt upset.

Very confused but mostly hurt and it took me a long time to get to a point where I can respectfully communicate with specifically my friends to try and speak about my

portion of our communication because I probably used harsh words when we were discussing these things because of I felt very hurt and with that I probably used words that I wouldn't have wanted to otherwise so I wanted to clear that with them and also to to build back trust and love

Fortunately, I was able to talk with my friends this fall, and that changed a lot of things for me, and I think that time has been a real gift, to be honest, because that was incredibly shocking when people you've gone to church with for 26 years suddenly left. It's shocking, and I didn't even necessarily know what for.

So it was really, I was really thankful to have had that conversation with them and I think it's allowed for a lot more openness and it's made me feel connected. [personal medical details omitted]

I think anyone who's been hospitalized with a situation or in some sort of a situation that feels very life-threatening, you of course think of many things, and you think about your life. So, of course these conflicts have caused a lot of grief, a lot of sorrow, a lot of confusion, and I was thankful to God that I was spared and could stay alive.

I also felt that there's no sense in me having my own pride or my own agenda, if you will, about a certain issue or certain topics. And I wanted to be able to discuss and try to understand. So recently, my dad and I met with one of my good friends and her dad.

Both who have left this congregation and we were able to communicate to seek to understand. I also have reached out to a few of my other friends that have left to try and understand their thoughts on this situation. And

Although they weren't necessarily conversations that I would just love to have like any other, they were actually probably some of the best that we've had because we're able to understand where there are some seriously misguided misconceptions of each other

And it was incredibly freeing. It was incredibly freeing. And though none of us have a wonderful answer as to how we could clarify this situation, it also felt really good to feel that love that I've always known from people.

But it's felt like that was shattered for no reason of I felt my own after our fellow believers decided to leave. So I've been trying to understand. There's been a term that's been used in letters that have been sent back to Minneapolis in return.

I think it would be helpful to understand where exactly that is coming from when those types of statements are made.

I sincerely don't understand that. And I have directly asked one of the speakers that used to attend this congregation. Well, let me back up. There's been statements made that I have heard that Minneapolis, quote unquote, kicked out.

It's speakers, and we essentially said that they're not welcome. And of course, when you hear that, that's incredibly troubling. I'm not sure if any of you LLC brothers would have heard that yourself, but I certainly heard that on multiple occasions, and it's really troubling because it's not true.

It's not true from this end, but of course, I'm only one part of the conversation, so I wanted to directly ask one of the speakers that was here before if he felt that that was true, that statement was true, that did Minneapolis kick out its ministers, kick out its speakers, and he said no.

I was relieved to hear that we had the same understanding of this situation, but it also just made me think, how many more instances are there or examples are there that are similar to this, where there has been a message that's communicated and where this comes from, I don't know, and it doesn't, it's of no use to point fingers as to where this may have originated from or that sort of thing.

But I really think that beneath so many of these things is a dreadful misconception of each other. While these things are confusing, they're difficult, both of my roommates now went to Rockford. I love them both very much. And initially it was difficult.

To even talk about anything church related, but I'm thankful that after we've had conversations, it does feel comfortable. I don't feel necessarily separated or isolated like I once did. That was really difficult, but I think that in speaking with each other,

We can clarify some of these things as opposed to look to our only, well, it seems like it's an often referenced outcome of difficulty and disagreement, which is separation. But wouldn't we, out of love, which has been referenced here by you as well, wouldn't we want to

When I hear other people and hear especially our fellow believers, when it's said that we don't want to lose anyone, that's comforting to hear and I also feel the same way. So to me, I really have hope as opposed to despair.

Because God has an abundance of love for everyone and he hasn't said there are a certain number of people that heaven has a capacity to hold. I will say that it has been a little bit difficult when there have been certain instances or circumstances of

Maybe a particular issue that's been discussed and there have been concerns that have been raised about something or something that was said and it seems like there's a common response that we may be battling God's kingdom and of course that's a very serious issue if that is the case. I also think

That it would be really helpful if we had some way to communicate with one another where we can separate the humanness from what is being said, because at least for myself, if I have a concern about something, I think it is the right thing to talk about that. But it also makes a person, it makes one feel nervous to say anything

If you feel that other people may view you as battling or intentionally maybe being rebellious. I don't have the answers of course, but these are just things that I've thought of in recent years, especially the last year and a half. It's also been said that we all need to search ourselves and absolutely I could not agree more with that.

I've thought often of the prayer of David, search me, oh God. We all know the rest of that, I don't need to say it. And also to trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding and submit to him. And I think that

In all of these difficulties, while it's made for a really difficult past couple of years, I've also felt a sense of peace from that. Because it is up to each of us to tend our own relationship with God. And there's peace in knowing that God knows your heart.

That's always been preached. God knows the heart. Faith is personal. Faith is a gift. Indeed it is. There's the first verse from 372. Oh, how loving sweet the shepherd gently holds a smallest lamb.

He will gather to his bosom all the weak and weary ones. With his voice of tender mercy, he the way of safety shows where the precious living water for the thirsty overflows. I think we all can be thankful that God has had patience with each of us.

And God loves us despite our faults, but also to be thankful for the abundance of love and forgiveness that we have from God, because we are the most lucky of all people that we have that hope. I also have been one to speak in other meetings, and I may have used words that have been harsh. That's not been my intent, but I understand other people can perceive things differently.

And I would ask if I also could be forgiven for those in my other faults and failings. Craig and then Olli.

I also want to join in to the thoughts that have been expressed by so many that it's been good to see you brothers here with us and hearing our songs and also we wanted to hear yours. And that way we can share truly and openly our sorrows and our concerns and also our

All the offenses that we wish to care for. I know for myself I've had many frustrations and I'm sure even short words and I'll have to say it as sometimes in my own heart harboring even bitterness and

Those things that are there in my flesh and I wish to battle against those and I wish to even put those away now that can I believe my faults and sins forgiven. Jim had brought up a verse that I had also written down as a thought.

And I was thinking of it in this context, that what can we as believers, all believers, collectively do to restore the focus to the beauty of the Kingdom of God, which is the glory of Christ and His righteousness, and away from the faults of individuals or groups

The experience that destroys love. And as Jim had read that, or quoted that verse, I'll read that and I'm a little bit past it. As Paul writes, this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. Albeit for this cause, I obtained mercy. That in me first,

Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. When we, in the place of a sinner, accept first and foremost unto ourselves

The Holy Spirit then brings forth that which Paul relays, that we might show all longsuffering for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him. That's our mission command phrased in a different way. That what we have, we want to share. It's that simple. What we believe, what we with joy want to share with others.

And it's been a trial for many of us, those who have been asked to rest, those who have asked to rest because of the confusion. Because I know, speaking for myself, I only want to share the joy that's in my heart of what I believe. That's it. And yes, I have flesh, and sometimes that flesh comes out.

And I want to care for those things that have caused offense, but my desire is to share with joy. That what I believe. And then, a thought that I've been wondering about a little bit, pondering, I know there's a message that your brothers are going to draft and bring forth to the other congregations.

And I can't speak for everybody here, so I'll speak just for myself. And I've been pondering this, what message would we want, or what message would I want to go to the congregations? We are not perfect, and we don't expect that that kind of message would go forth. But as many have said, we are all sinners. We find unity at the foot of the cross,

What I want to share is that we do desire to believe. We want to hear the Word of God. We don't have new teachings here. We would like peace and unity with all congregations. We would wish that all would come here, speakers and congregants, to visit around the Word of God with us.

And we would like to know that we wish to care for any and all offenses. And then, finally, this thought, and I bring this out with sincerity, I don't bring it out to point fingers at anyone.

But as different concerns and observations have come up over the years, I think we've all found ourselves in a place, at times, of having misunderstandings. I know I have. I'm sure we can all acknowledge that we have not had perfect understanding, and as Jim has also brought out, we don't need perfect understanding in order to believe. But there are some core matters that are

We can say vitally important that we are unified on. And there's been so much that has been discussed over the years, so many topics that have been brought up, misunderstandings on different sides of the equation, and that's why I too do not like to call things out on sides, because misunderstandings have been on all sides.

But the doctrinal writings that have come out and have been shared and published by the LLC have helped so much. We spent, what was it, a year maybe here, going through those in Minneapolis in our Bible class lessons. And they've been eye-opening, I think, to so many. Not that we would become wise, but that our faith would be grounded

With surety on a foundation that does not move, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. And that brings me to the thought that I have that I just want to share, to try to simplify the matter. And we can all, every one of us, personally ask this question. What is the object of my faith?

Who is the object of my faith? Is it the Lord Jesus Christ? Or is it the congregation? And it's not to belittle the role of the congregation. There's a couple of verses that the psalmist writes and it brings this

To light Psalm 111, my praise shall be of thee and the great congregation. Psalm 22, I will declare thy name unto my brethren. In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

That's my desire, is to not glorify any one of us nor myself be glorified, nor any one of you brothers there who came here.

To share your songs that none of you would also be glorified but that in the midst of the great congregation of God we could collectively and wholeheartedly and with joyful voices praise the Lord of our salvation. That's my desire. Can I still again hear that gospel?

This is Diana. I'm feeling a little more settled, but there was one part of the Bible that I wanted to read here because it gives me a lot of hope. It's from Isaiah 29, starting at verse 22. Therefore, thus says the Lord who redeemed Abraham concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall no more be ashamed.

No more shall his face grow pale, for when he sees his children, the work of my hands. In his midst, they will sanctify my name. They will sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and will stand in awe of the God of Israel. And those who go astray in spirit will come to understanding, and those who murmur will accept instruction. I feel like that's a beautiful part of the Bible.

All in.

Yeah, I raised my hand right after Jim Frantti's comment. Just to make a small clarification, so there's not any misunderstanding on that. So we have truly very nice, warm discussion.

You guys came over and I think and I encourage every one of us to open those personal visit, open doors and visit, hear each other.

Yeah, so Jim mentioned that we didn't see everything face to face and that's true. That discussion was about, we wanted to discuss with Jim about the issue of how Minneapolis members are treated.

And it's very understandable that if you didn't see it all in the same way, because you are not experiencing the same as we are.

So just wanted to make it clear that we didn't have any doctrinal discussions really and the differences were not related to doctrine or understanding of faith matters. So evening is getting late and you

You have heard many speeches and people have felt free to share their thoughts, concerns and even open up on some of their personal or some of their painful experiences or grievances.

This is how we are here in Minneapolis. This is how I have experienced it over the years, over almost 30 years here. So, are we perfect here? No, we are not. Are our comments perfect? No, they are not. But, dear brothers,

I hope that you also heard how people are asking gospel and desire to believe that gospel, it wipes all sins and faults away. The power of gospel.

It's from heaven, it's from God. And it's only one Holy Spirit. Through this gospel, there is no optional other spirit in that gospel. And when that gospel is preached,

And whoever believes it, they receive that Holy Spirit into their hearts. And when a gospel is asked, a person has made a choosing that they have chosen to believe.

And this is only because, praise of God, that they have been able to choose to believe their sins forgiven and follow Christ. That power cannot be taken away.

And if anyone have a desire to take that power away, ask, where am I? So my sincere

That you are, that you have forgiving heart and that you truly forgive when gospel is proclaimed. Even those accusations and claims that Jim you brought up, I hope and pray that you can forgive even those.

Or if there is still something that bothers regarding those claims, accusations, please go to that brother or sister and discuss about it. Maybe better matters can be taken care of that way. But please,

But the entire Minneapolis congregation. I hope that you bring back greetings that discussion was open and gospel was freely preached. Please bring greetings that there in Minneapolis is a

Even though they are faulty ones, but they want to sincerely believe. And I know that this evening has been hard for you guys. There has been some

And you also can believe all of your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. During this evening, many thoughts have come to my mind, even doubts again, and I

May God bless you.

Thank you, [Olli]. I think if it's okay, I'll just recap a couple of things. So first of all, I just want to reiterate that the five of you visiting tonight have taken time away from your families and other things, and we do appreciate the patience and the willingness to do that on behalf and for the benefit of our congregation as we've invited you here.

And then, you know, even more, in terms of the LLC, we've heard it here tonight discussed that

We are truly served by the LLC at this time. Our kids are going to the confirmation camps and the periodicals and the translations that are provided, those have been a tremendous source of spiritual guidance and comfort, especially during these times, COVID, et cetera.

And finally, it was just mentioned that even the, I guess you could call it the liaison to Finland and to other congregations, we have that desire to be in spiritual harmony and have true peace. And we feel that that wouldn't be possible without a central organization. So I just wanted to mention that.

Tonight, I think, and I'm no different, but sometimes we wear our raw emotions, especially on matters of such seriousness, and in other cases, so much joy. And so I hope that none of that was, or I guess I hope that it wasn't, it was taken in the best way possible, if I can say it that way.

And then finally, we have, as a congregation, I've just made a couple of notes here that I think are maybe central. There's been a lot of food for thought, but the items that we would take back and discuss with the congregation are that the criticisms are damaging. We've all heard of a constructive criticism.

You know, I guess academic theoretical circles, these criticisms are damaging. And I think part of that is there's this attempt to really go to all the periodicals Luther says and the Bible and the studies and all these just to gain additional insights. But perhaps we need to learn as a congregation how to

Channel that in a way without causing contention and doing damages. And then the term where am I has come up multiple times tonight.

I think just the idea of instead of looking externally and outward, our personal sins are obviously the only thing that truly to each of us, at the end of time, what matters is that we leave this earth under the grace of God and are free from sin through the sacrifice of Jesus. So really, we can spend more time reflecting

If there would be, I'll just put you on the spot and throw it out there, if there would be a way to either invite us to the LLC office, maybe we can invite them here, if there would be a way to structure that or at least try to repair those, because without restoring love, it's so difficult. So many of these questions just take on a completely different tenor. I think where there's love, there's room for

All sorts of conversations about the Bible, what God instructs us to do. So I just wanted to kind of provide that recap. We have a lot of food for thought, and again, thanks for the time and the patience. And I think we'll have just one more comment, and then if it would be, if one of you guys might do that, I'll pose the benediction.

So, I had my hand up a long time ago, and even though I already spoke once, I was hoping to get one more opportunity. I wanted to reiterate when Havas says the Holy Spirit is always a gathering power. It doesn't divide. And my thought is,

If one focuses on division, how can they divide, and there's division, and there's division, and there's division, that's not of the Holy Spirit. Like Laestadius says, the demands for holiness made by self-righteousness go so far that a man must become an angel before heaven. And then, of course, we all know the parable of the wheat and the tares.

And then because we're running so late, I'll just... The question that was posed in the letter that was addressed here to Minneapolis was how to move forward. How to restore the love is my question. And my thoughts is this. Each and every one of us need to turn to God and His Word for direction. Remember that there's nobody here

Who will get us to heaven? Only our faith in the Heavenly Father. Let's all put our faith and trust in God alone and forgive each other their sins. And number two, spread the word. Preach the word to all congregations as it instructs us so clearly in the Bible.

The idea of not preaching, I would assume, started with somebody, some man, and for some reason people followed that man. But that idea is contrary to God's Word. It's not according to God's Word.

And number three, to restore the love we needed to treat all those who desire to believe as brothers and sisters in faith. You folks from the LLC probably have not experienced an experience that I have many times where people that I've regarded as believers all my life

There are a number of them that refuse to greet me with God's peace. But at some point, I had to acknowledge to myself that that is their sin, and it is sin. When they look at me and pretend that they can see into my heart and say, there's an unbeliever,

But again, that is their sin when they don't greet, and I can only pray for them. And then we all need to recognize that the Holy Spirit is God in the third person. Not necessarily the spirit of you and I together or a group. If it's not tied to the word, then it's of another word.

And patience, I mentioned already. Noah preached for 120 years. This few years that there's been conflict and strife is the work of the devil. And we have no support in the Bible to give up on patience for our fellow brothers and sisters in faith.

You've now heard the songs of many precious believers here and I pray that God's love shines in your hearts also and recognizes that there are just simply faulty believers here. No high and mighty people.

And so I think a giant leap forward, a giant leap forward in restoring the love is if one of you could preach here tomorrow morning.

And Jim, I think you're the chairman, if I'm not mistaken, of the LLC. So if you could preach here tomorrow morning, that would be a giant leap forward in restoring the love and the unity in God's kingdom in America. Can I have my sins forgiven?

Just one more quick comment. I was purposely saving some of my comments for later on, but the later on is near 11 o'clock, so I'll have to really cut them short. Visiting with some friends and believing friends and colleagues in Finland about the American situation, they've asked that

Well, they stated that there cannot be a heresy without the doctrinal error. Impossible. So they asked, what is the doctrinal error? And they stated that there can be no give or take around the doctrine of justification.

For all matters of idiophora, there is liberty, as long as you're not feeding a weak one astray.

And then when they heard that there's been talk about wrong spirits, they said that, have they in America discussed the 1970s and 1980s like we haven't been thoroughly discussed them? And they have refuted the doctrine of spirits. We don't talk about such things as wrong spirits.

That's been refuted, debunked. And the other is the governance of the household of God. He said it would be a good idea to discuss thoroughly the 1980s in America. And so with that,

I've spoken up at different meetings at different occasions and sometimes my name has been called out publicly and I would

Willingly like to visit about what I've said, if it's according to God's word or not. But yes, I am faulty and my words have caused offense at times over the years. And so I'm glad that you've come here. We welcome you. This is God's kingdom, kingdom of grace and forgiveness.

This is the place where I want to be, where I want to belong. This is where salvation is, the kingdom of God, where the road to heaven goes through, the kingdom of God here on earth. And on this way, I wish to be and wish to remain. That's why I said the canals are really like any sense in Wall Street.

Okay, if there are no comments, the bar has been volunteered. You have a closing benediction, if you don't mind. And we'll then close with song 511. Here. Brothers and sisters,

It's nice to be here. Thanks for the love towards us and this welcome. Many prayers arise here tonight. We all join in the many, many prayers. I can only, from the psalm from winter services, feeling the joy and peace and unity there. And we know that summer services are coming.

The festive summer services here in North American Zion. My prayer would be that a miracle could occur and God could help. That all could be gathered there together. We pray that it's in His hands. The Gospel, as we heard, has great power. When it's preached, it touches the hearts. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit. And God is the one that grants the forgiveness. So, many, many prayers.

And tonight we join in in saying the Lord's benediction, saying the Lord bless us and keep us. The Lord make his face shine upon us and be gracious unto us. The Lord lift his countenance upon us and give us peace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Jim had noted a note to your request, Ken, that he's leaving first thing in the morning, so pray for God's help.