LLC Annual Meeting, July 2, 2022: the Removal of Minneapolis and Wolf Lake

Mike Jurmu: Mike Jurmu, Rockford. I just wanted to make a comment that harkens back to when Jim was talking about Jouko retiring. And I just wanted to bring you this news from the Rockford congregation that Jouko l has retired. And as one of our brothers there said: He has retired but he's not off the hook yet. But our congregation has rejoiced in the service that Jouko has done for these last 15 years. We even rejoice that has sent us a pastor, a full-time pastor. Allen Pirness is now our full time pastor in Rockford. We really felt the helping hand of God in these matters. We rejoiced in it

Moderator: Are there any other reports from congregations? There is a hand in the middle.

Mitch Loukusa: Mitch Loukusa from Rockford. I guess the way that things happened in Rockford, there wasn't a chance to have a congregation discussion specifically around those meetings that happened between the LLC brothers and Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations. But there have been a lot of discussions and conversations that have taken place with these members of the

congregation. I'm sure that other congregations have had those discussions and they've even said that specific input or whatnot. But I guess it feels that it would be good to visit about those. I hope that I'm not jumping the gun. Is this the appropriate time to bring this up? I guess that's all my thoughts right now.

Aaron Laho: Aaron Laho, Monticello. In preparation for the annual meeting, we had a meeting with delegates. Then we also held a special congregation discussion. a free and open discussion, talking about the spiritual divisions and meetings that have happened. And throughout that discussion, the congregation, I guess, has a question that we would like to have talked about here. And the question was, is it a time to separate from Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations? So, I guess it's a heavy topic for me to bring up but it's the part that the congregation has requested some discussion about.

Moderator: Okay, Cody, right behind you.

Evan Loukusa: Evan Loukusa from Ishpeming, Michigan. Our congregation, to my knowledge, has not had a formal discussion on this topic. I would speak from my heart here. And just sitting through the meeting today, I guess my observation has been that there's a conspicuous lack of support from Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations. I don't know that I've heard their delegates speak up at this meeting voicing support for any of the motions that had been discussed.

Evan Loukusa (continued): That to me is troubling. And I agree with the brothers that it would be good to discuss that here and pray that God's will will be done and the Holy Spirit would speak. I came to this thinking with this meeting with no strong opinions, but I would love to hear from the other delegates here.

Moderator: There is a hand in the back. Gary

Gary Lehtola: I appreciate the meeting so far. We have listened and haven't had any objections to what's been happening here so far. But I would like to point out. We have talked about the bylaws already. And I would like to reference the bylaws and also the LLC constitution. So, the LLC constitution says that “member congregations confess living faith which is founded on the Holy Word of God in which Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone. And they also hold the Word of God as the highest authority and as the only measure according to which all doctrines and teachings are to be examined and judged. As members of the said Corporation firmly believe that the instructions and teachings of the Holy Bible are the only authority and rule for deciding all matters.

So, I would recommend here that we don't talk about dividing because that's contrary to Scripture. Martin Luther teaches that the Holy Spirit calls, gathers, enlightens.

Moderator: Mike Jurmu is next.

Say who was speaking and what congregation you are from?

Mike Jurmu: Mike Jurmu, Rockford. Before I begin, feeling so many doubts and my weaknesses, can you preach the gospel? My prayer is that I wouldn't do harm to God's Kingdom. Gary, when you brought up the bylaws or the constitution of the Laestadian Lutheran Church. My dear friend, you should listen to what the believers have been saying. The question of not recognizing Minneapolis or Wolf Lake was a consequence of the fact that we feel that you don't believe the same as we do. And I can say from a personal level that I should have introduced myself as Mike Jurmu from Rockford, previously from Minneapolis. And in our many discussions there, I can assure you that we weren't of one mind. We don't believe the same. And through these many years of discussions, that hasn't changed. And so I don't see the… I tremble. And I'm saddened by this topic of not recognizing Minneapolis and Rockford as sister congregations. What did I say? Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, sorry. And yet, I think it's time because it's clear that we don't believe the same. The letters that have come from Minneapolis, these last three letters that have come. I personally did not feel the love or the unity of the Holy Spirit in those letters. They didn't answer my spirit. The LLC board members, I guess, can speak for themselves about the meetings that they've had with you. From what I know, there was no unity in those discussions.

And so there's been this talk of being pushed out of the kingdom. And I don't agree with that assessment. My feeling has been that you people in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake have been lovingly called, reminded and rebuked, and you haven't listened. The push that you feel is the fact that your spirit doesn't answer to God's Kingdom. And feels like God's Kingdom is pushing that spirit away. And you should be afraid. So, I also on a personal level am so tired. I'm tired of the battle. I'm tired of my own faults, my own weaknesses, my own faults in these matters. I long for some sort of clarity. And I know that'll come in God's time. I don't want to have to try to decide on the spot if I can or cannot greet somebody. And yet, I know that I'll have to decide that regardless of any of the decisions we make today. So, I hope you all can forgive my weak words. These are the feelings of my heart. It is probably not very clear. I hope you can remember me in your prayers, so that one day I can make it to heaven.

Moderator: There is a hand in the back, then Jared in the front.

Mitch Loukusa: Mitch Loukusa from Rockford. And I'd like to echo Mike's thoughts and also a response to Gary. In response to your comment of not trying to divide, I think it's been evident for a number of years – and become more evident – the spiritual divide that is present. And I found it interesting that you brought up the fact of the Holy Spirit calling and gathering. Now, I'm forgetting those words. But I was even marveling even as our summer services have started, how timely the instruction has been that has come through the Holy Spirit that God has given to us his servants. And the voice of the Spirit has spoken through all these years. And it continues to speak. Kind of, as Mike alluded to, the pushing or feeling that some have been pushed away – the accusation. I've been thinking about that recently. And even as we've heard in services, the borders of God’s kingdom go from heart to heart. And so it is. It's impossible to push someone out of God's kingdom. God takes care of his own, and wouldn't allow that to happen. But the fact that I guess one would find themselves in a position that they feel they have been pushed out, also, I guess, brings to my mind. The fact that they can see the borders of God's kingdom. And they're not, I guess, included in that. But I guess, feeling like my words have been weak, I ask, can I hear the gospel?

Moderator: There is a hand in the back. Do you want to raise it again?

Mitchell Johnson: This is Mitchell Johnson from Wolf Lake. There was a concern brought up that Wolf Lake or Minneapolis did not express any opinion on things today. And I just wanted to clarify that I voted for option B. So, there was some input. And also, I agree with this 2023 LLC's operating plan. It is good. I really liked the words on the front cover, where it says that upon this rock I will build my church. That is good.

And also, I would just like to say that the congregation of Wolf Lake does not wish to be excommunicated from LLC. We wish to travel together with believers in Christ Jesus, towards that same mutual goal which is everlasting life. Also, I think the solution to this division could probably be solved humbling yourself before God's word, recognizing Jesus' commandments, and also following them. One of the commandments most importantly would be – for myself personally would be – what has become known as the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would want done unto you. It is Jesus’ teaching. For me personally, one of his most amazing teachings. To me, this is personal because my mother tried to teach this to me when I was younger. I remember trying to justify my actions of why this didn't apply to me. But now I realize as I'm older – I'm on the other side of the coin of getting treated the way that I wouldn't want to be treated. And I realize I was wrong in my youth.

And also another teaching of Jesus that you should try to remember is to love one another as I have loved you. Jesus says. So again, Wolf Lake does not wish to be pushed away…… or not recognized as believers. We wish to travel on this journey to heaven. Thank you.

Jared Huhta: We've had many discussions on this topic. This is Jared Huhta, from Prescott Valley. We've had many discussions on this topic. In our congregation and on the board level, in the congregation, we've read these letters that have gone back and forth from both the LLC, from Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. And the thoughts that are coming to my mind is the love that Mitchell spoke about from Jesus Christ. It has been shown to you brothers and sisters in Wolf Lake and Minneapolis right now in the form of rebuke and a call to repentance. And that has been the case over the last several years. The talk of excommunication, the desegregation from everything else is simply a formality of what's already occurred. The separation has taken place and it hasn't been believers that have pushed anyone away. It's been those that have through sin, separated themselves from God, which is the only thing that separates us from God and from God's Kingdom. So, when you consider the Holy Spirit called gathers and enlightens, the Holy Spirit or the sword of the Spirit, also has two sides – one that heals and one that condemns. And if you find yourself on the side where the Holy Spirit or God's congregation, God's kingdom is condemning you. I would say that that portion of Scripture that, [comes to mind] we are instructed to search ourselves – it should be first and foremost. It's interesting, I have a short story to share. At one time in my past I would have been extremely uncomfortable sitting here in the midst of all these brothers and sisters where I am now. Because at that time I was living in darkness. I was not a believer. Today, I feel the love of God's kingdom. And although I don't know many of the brothers here and some of the sisters on the other side. I'm totally comfortable being here today. So, if you find yourself in that position where you feel condemned or pushed out or excommunicated or separated, that instruction is still there, that call to repentance is still there. Find it in yourself, humble yourself and repent. And as the theme of summer services instructs us to seek ye first the kingdom of God and then all else will be added to you. It's not necessary for us to engage in these political battles, as we're not two political parties that can simply compromise on these issues. We're a kingdom that is led and guided by the Holy Spirit. There is no compromise to be had. I definitely feel the weight of sin myself. Can I hear the gospel?

Moderator: There is a comment over there on that side. Raise your hand for Cody. Thank you.

Mark Haataja: I take the mic here. I want to share also. This is Mark Haataja from Menahga.

First of all, I would say Amen to brother Jared. In the last months in our home has been much anticipation for summer services. We wanted to be together and visit a large gathering, to be with the dear brothers and sisters in faith, to hear the Word of God. I can say that already this weekend that God has answered. God’s Spirit has been present. We have heard his word. We have been refreshed and our life of faith.

I have also come here today to serve as a delegate. And even in those feelings of joy, there were fears and doubts even coming today. I did not only represent our congregation, butI also own doubts and fears. I can say that these battles that we've been in have brought [only] doubts. The discussions have made the journey in some way more difficult. We visited these matters as a congregation. As you all know, we're close to Wolf Lake. Wolf Lake was my home congregation for most of my life. I think it has been acknowledged in our congregation – we are unity. And we acknowledge that we are not of the same mind and spirit as those who we traveled with previously in Wolf Lake and Minneapolis. We no longer have communication between our congregations. As individuals, already for some time there's been many individual conversations that have been shared and visited about. There has been not only acknowledgement from our congregation, there has been acknowledgment from some in Wolf Lake as well. We don't believe the same. To speak of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not divide. God is not divided. I think each one of us has acknowledged – we are not one. We're not in unity.

The question for you to consider is – how much longer do we need to battle? I face those same questions that the brother shared even with the greeting of God's peace.

For some, as many have visited personally and they have acknowledged that they don't believe the same way. Yet there's others that I have visited with previously who are in those congregations. We face that question – do we greet or don't we greet? I can say personally that when this has happened, it hasn't been the joyous greeting as it is when we greet a dear brother and sister, if you don't believe the same. So, I don't know where to go. Our congregation gave us instructions to come here as delegates and trust in God through His Spirit will be present here today. I believe that God Himself is present. No one fears. First of all for myself, I want to also make it to heaven. I ask dear brothers and sisters, can I yet believe? I desire to travel to heaven. I have tried to put my thoughts together. I also wish to hear from each of you dear brothers and sisters in different congregations. Be open, be free.

Gary Lehtola: Yes, Minneapolis has no interest in being separated. No interest in separation. In Ephesians four Paul writes. “with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” We definitely want to continue the discussions, to go to the scriptures, to go to Christ Jesus himself. In the book of Hebrews it says, it encourages us to look upon Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. And that's what we desire to do and continue to do. We desire to encourage further discussion, so we can gather, continue to gather around the footsteps of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Moderator: There's a hand up in the middle there.

Trent Simonson: Could you hold closer? I guess I really agree with Jared said that. The separation I think has really already happened.. There are two spirits. God’s Kingdom consists of one spirit. And I think it's more than one at this time. It’s more of a formality. There are two spirits.

We can talk and discuss them or whatever. I don't see it as getting. Maybe in some ways – maybe I'm wrong in this – but it feels like the Church Law of Christ is coming into play. It is the final act of love. one say is bound in a situation. In that condition I wouldn't feel it is an act of love, that binding. Where am I? just not trying to get a

Moderator: Up in front, Cody.

Lyndon Simonson: … trying to keep up with my brother… The motto for the services is seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all else will be added onto you. My father Art used that scripture a lot. and back to the point that… Jim gave greetings and read the verse, it made me feel emotional because those are such familiar words. unfamiliar words happens early adult pools those. Those words of instruction, seek the first, are important for each and every one of us, not just for those on the outside of God’s Kingdom. Those that find themselves under rebuke that along with what was already mentioned, search me oh Lord and know my heart, however the psalmist says that. I was also thinking – I should be taking notes here. But I guess…

Just the fact that God didn't send Jesus in the world to heal the sick or whatever he is because God does accept Jesus into the world to heal the wounded. And if we don't find ourselves… if we're not wounded, I guess we don't need Jesus. And it would be a scary place to be in, if you're beyond need of the care of the kingdom. I guess the loving call is certainly coming forth today. If you hear that voice, harden not your heart. Another thing I would say is – I should have been taking notes. Anyway, I would encourage you to humble yourself before the congregation. Anyway, for my weak words, doubts and fears, could I have my sins forgiven?

Moderator: Jim and then Paul

Jim Moll: Jim Moll, Prescott Valley. I was involved in meetings with, for example, the Wolf Lake brothers, at least 10 years ago, when these spiritual differences were evident. And it's been a struggle all these years. For many, they're more aware of it in recent years. But it's been going on for a long time. I can't speak for the entire congregation, for example, Minneapolis. I will speak to my brother, I would say Gary, for example. You have clearly quoted God's word, but does the enemy of souls. The quotation of God's words – the understanding has been lost. Without the Holy Spirit, dear brother, there's darkness. And, for example, was it two or three years ago, we had a meeting, dealing with these issues in Monticello with the board members and elders. And there was a presentation by Harri Vahajylkka. And there was a position paper written by two brothers from Phoenix. And I thought that it pretty evidently showed two sides were already evident. And I thought, well, now, I have to decide which way I will have to point myself. Do I find myself in support or agree with Harri's presentation, or this position paper? I was startled to hear that one person thought that they're equally as valuable or as clear, and so on. It was so evident, the position paper revealed a wrong understanding, and so forth. Their ability to quote God's word and know God's word is fine for a temporal life, but without the spirit there is no understanding. The instruction of God's kingdom, brother, is to repent and find yourself in that place where you and listen to the mother speaking and the voice of the spirit speaking. And that's all that's asked. It will unite. It will, again, restore understanding. And there could be rejoicing in God's kingdom that these matters were taken care of. Until that happens, as Jared said so clearly. So, already it has happened, this division. All you have to do is individually, seek and find your condition and repent. Love will be restored. There won't be this bitterness. There won't be these disputes, these questions – these kinds of questions that keep circulating, and keep changing. When one set of questions are answered, there's a new set of questions. So, these matters will not be resolved in any other way than this call to repentance, and to return to the love and unity of the kingdom of God. This is a plea. The Holy Spirit in God's Kingdom is saying to you who are feeling that you're being pushed out. It's like the brother said of the church law of Christ. It's that last step that calls in love to wayward ones. If there's any faulty person here, it's me. Can I hear the gospel?

Paul Waaraniemi: These last several summers we've been living at our cabin in Michigan. As a student of history and living in a very historical spot in North American Laestadianism, I have to say that that area is an interesting thing because it was really the cradle of Laestadianism in this country. One of them anyway. And now there's a handful of God's children there – precious and small. I have to say though, that it's a graveyard of Laestadian congregations. There's the Firstborn. There's the Small Firstborn with its many factions. There's the 1973 Torola Group up there. There are some – at least a few – from the Pollari group. And who knows what else? Oh, actually, right after the Torola Heresy, there was Nathan Ruonavaara’s group that split away. A couple of those people still live there. It gives you pause to think. They might have some similarities to us, in terms of lifestyle, some of their customs. They don't have the Holy Spirit.

And what we're looking at here, in this situation, is not pushing out, or kicking out. But something caused those divisions back when they took place. And I'm sure there were debates, there were discussions, there were all kinds of writings and activities and meetings surrounding many of those. But if there's no unity of spirit, the groups can't stay together. There's one kingdom, one spirit, one baptism, one Christ, one love, one fellowship, so on. And what's happening now, in our midst, is what I have been noting, when I've been at these meetings recently, in Monticello, maybe 14 months ago, and more recently, this spring. The speaking turns, and I think we heard a couple of them today. There's confidence in that understanding. And humility is lacking. And I have to say that it is foreign. It sounds foreign. Where are the grace of beggars? Where are those who need that instruction of God's children, the congregation mother, God's Word, and want to come and listen? We experienced recently when we've been living winters in Phoenix, that there are those who have just suddenly quit coming to services, period. So, if they don't desire the fellowship, and they don't desire to hear the word preached from the pulpits of God's children and God's congregation, then how can they say they don't want to be separated? I think that they've been indicating a desire to be separate in their actions. And I also have to say that I pray and hope that you dear friends will hearken and come to repentance. And I feel my own weakness and so many doubts and faults. I want to hear the gospel, too.

Moderator: There's a hand in the back.

Tuula Mattila: I feel very empty and don't really know what to say. But I feel like I have to somehow try to defend my faith. I thought that I would tell you my own psalm. I'm still in Minneapolis and why I've stayed there. And I'm a delegate of Minneapolis. But these are my own words. Every member has their own psalm to share.

So, I moved here from Finland about eight years ago. And pretty soon after we moved here, I started noticing something foreign in sermons. And how I did that. Since I was a little child, and I was sitting on the bench and listening to sermons, I was playing a game in my mind. It was a guessing game about what the speaker will say next. The texts were very familiar, The explanations of those texts were familiar, too. And you could kind of know or guess what the speaker is going to say next. And I've been playing that game in my mind all through my life, when listening to sermons. And when I met my husband and we got married, I changed that game a little bit. I started translating those sermons in my mind. Then we moved here. Then there's starting to be those moments or points where those speakers didn't say what I was used to hearing or how that game is supposed to go. And they were really subtle and small changes. But often they were towards our own endeavor or our own works or maybe sometimes law-minded or some kind of demand of our own that how we keep our faith. Those were others and… First I thought that it must be that I don't know English that well or maybe I just understand it wrong. But then there were other people starting to talk about the same thing that they've noticed, too. There's been that instruction in God’s Kingdom, if you hear… if you hear something what you shouldn’t hear – however you say it – you should approach those brothers and ask. And I asked a couple of times. But those questions were reserved. What really bothered me was that it's been said many times that what better place to ask questions is in God's kingdom? There should be all the answers and all instructions in God’s kingdom.

But when these questions were asked, pretty soon those who asked questions were labeled. And they were taken down off their positions. That has continued for quite a long time now. We are now at the point where we are talking about separation. I pray that God’s spirit is present for us all.

This is not a voting matter. There's something really… hard time. I have often listened to sermons in Finland. It is for two reasons. First one, it's my own language. I guess I can be certain that I understand what they're saying. The other reason.… in North American Zion we're… listening to those sermons, What they preach – that's not that's not true. That's believing false conversations…. There's been talk about those who want to go their own way. Those who have been led astray… Those congregations who want to separate. If you have listened to the… meetings we have had in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake… always... Please, come and serve us with God’s Word. We still want to hear God’s Word preached. I believe that in God’s Word there are instructions and there is the truth. There's been… I still think that we haven't heard. First, the… members… Is it the understanding that we are free to ask… something that doesn't answer our spirit. Is it the wrong understanding that we haven't been willing to agree with those decisions that have been made because we feel like they go against God’s Word. I don't have answers. But I wish you all to look at yourself. Is it possible that the huge majority has gone astray. It has been listening. Someone has been

hurt and had spread their own hurt to others, and it has changed minds. It left room for the enemy of souls to seed and grow heresy. God does not do heresy. It's always the enemy of soul.… My wish is that we could have visits one to one and discussions and try to find that love towards each other and show forgiveness. And put these battles behind us. When I was listening to summer services this weekend, I heard God’s spirit speaking through those brothers. And I've been thinking, why is this over?. I feel empty, sinful and doubting.

Daniel Kumpula: Daniel Kumpula, Rockford Congregation. Before I keep a speaking turn, I ask to hear the gospel. I am not very old. I am not very wise, as many of you probably know. But I have heard two spirits even here today. I tremble with that thought. Many or all… with that thought. I visited with a dear sister a couple weeks ago. She trembled with that thought knowing that many in her family are in the wrong spirit. As has been acknowledged here – my spirit that I recognize, and this other voice I've heard, that there are two spirits. It is recognized and acknowledged – I would say – by most of you, if not all. It was alluded to in speaking turns earlier.

You're not – no individual is being pushed from God's kingdom. But the spirit is – there as this foreign spirit that is being pushed out of God's kingdom. And if you feel that push out of God's Kingdom, you're hanging on to that spirit that is being pushed out of God's kingdom. That is an incorrect Spirit. With some of the speaking turns earlier, I had to turn to the dear brothers next to me and ask – I used the words, who is that? It also came to my mind – what is that? It was a foreign voice. It was here. It was not recognizable to my spirit. And I tremble if we continue to battle with these two spirits – acknowledging, how can we continue forward with two spirits in God’s Kingdom?

It is impossible. It's impossible for us to do that. And that's a dangerous place for us to be for our own faith life and also trying to raise teenage children. Working at camp last summer, one question came from one or the other and something along the lines of with the different churches out there, which one is the correct one? They can see – already at this young age – the difference between the churches.

This one mom left camp, an Alaskan camp, with tears in her eyes expressing, this was the funnest time she had in her life. The Holy Spirit was there in that camp. She was reassured where God's Kingdom is. I fear trying to raise my own children in a kingdom that is divided. It is a matter of this point, as was stated, a formality. Nobody's being excommunicated or cut off or whatever phrase you want to put to it. But the fruits of those congregations in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake are not present. They are not the same fruits of my own congregation.

And we're openly acknowledging that for all. If there are those who are still attending those congregations, hear the call. The call has been prevalent for many, many years. Personally, that's how I want to be treated. If I was straying away, I would want to be reminded and rebuked over and over until hopefully I could see the correct way. But also I would like, if I did not hear that call, and I was – the direction was coming from my parents, I wouldn't put them through that burden. To continue to go contrary to that work.

Craig Fredrickson: I would like to hear the gospel for all of my faults and sins.

I tremble taking this speaking turn. I feel as though I haven't been in direct discussions with this spiritual unrest. In Colorado we haven't had it so heavy as it has been here Minnesota, Minneapolis and Wolf Lake – in this area in Minnesota in general. I must say, even though we haven't been directly involved in those discussions, we've been directly affected. I must say that when I hear that God's Kingdom hasn't been loving. I must say that I have felt a love for me personally, but also feel the love that has been to all of God's Kingdom from God's love.

At these summer services God's love has been present. I was commenting when… and I were riding together here. I don’t know if I have ever felt God’s love so strongly as I have this weekend. I must say that there's a love – God's love. There's the outpouring of God's love here at this meeting. Hear the call.

If you don't hear the call, It's a scary place to be. I feel really fortunate that I can say that I know that I am a believer. And I wish everyone here today can say that I am on the road to heaven.

Timo Hotari: So, Toronto is a little bit further away from a lot of the storms that have been raging. In Toronto we have been living in peace in our congregation. And a lot of us members of the congregation have been really sheltered from any kind of real interaction or knowing fully what the issues are. We have seen our brothers come from meetings, our own speakers, members. They've always come with that saddened heart. Dear family members, because we're a family of God, pray on Zion's behalf that the congregation, God's Kingdom, can move freely. I'm not even sure what the English word is but the Finnish word is ‘raittiisti ', which is fresh, free. That they can be joyous. And that all can be saved.

With summer services coming up, the kids were all excited and we just couldn't wait. It's been a long time since – it feels like it's been forever – since we were able to come to summer services due to this pandemic. My wife and I went out Thursday evening to the opening services. It was beautiful. The tent was…

The singing was going on. The kids were running around. We just felt like it was a piece of that. It was so beautiful. And still not knowing any real issues or knowing that there's troubles. I was remembering the words someone told me... When one part of the body is ill or one member of the body is ill, the whole body will feel it. I’m full of joy when I was put into a delegation position here because you know, border crossing issues and stuff like that, and we were coming through. A lot of the brothers and friends at services said that you know our prayers are with you. As we started listening to meetings here. You'll be our spokesperson. First it seemed like the meeting was going great. when one of the brothers spoke about this Wolf Lake and Minneapolis issue, it felt like the air sucked out of the building. and all that which was which I wasn't scared of …it seemed like there was a terrible…… And all I could do was in my heart pray that God would lead.

Listening to the speaking turns, some quoted Bible portions. I've had many friends in the world that were of different denominations who quoted the Bible much better than I have. And the question that I always asked myself. I've told them, when they've asked me about the differences. I have peace in my heart. My faith is in my heart. My mother is the congregation that helps me when I have misunderstandings.

I've heard the two sides here now. My spirit can tell the difference. One side is hopeful. It is begging for grace. The other side is quoting the Bible and wanting to be a part of a group. For me it's always wanting to be a believer, an obedient child to the Heavenly Father. Many of the brothers have said the right words. Like said, it's not how much wisdom or how much Bible knowledge but it's the spirit that connects. And on the surface. There've been some people where you know, they've been really worried about their family members. They're really close friends of mine that I haven't seen in a long time. And they're worried about the brothers and sisters, immediate family members that are in the wrong spirit. We've talked about it.

My spirit has connected. There have also been asked me for my opinions, how I see it, how I understand it.

My spirit is not connected with that. Faith is so personal, especially in this time when it is a time of the mind, reason, knowledge. We have to know everything. We have to know all the answers. That makes it very difficult to simply believe. God's word can travel through all of this. There will be heresies among us. My little girl one time was… Peter Nevala... she said, dad, imagine if we had all stayed together? This is the heart of a child of God. We all want to stay together. But we do this in obedience and love. And when love is broken, or words of division are spoken rather than directly said that... It's only sin that divides. The loving voice is always calling the penitent sinner. It comes to mind how difficult it felt. The example in the Bible of two mothers in front of King Samuel. Are you going with a dead baby? There were two mothers and only one baby. One baby was dead. Both sides are claiming to be mothers. The one with the pleading heart, when Saul lifted up the sword. When the time comes, you know in your heart when you're not listening, You knew it as a kid. You know when you're defensive. Tears don’t wash away sin. Only the gospel does. I have learned this in my life over and over and over again. When I felt like I was being estranged or lost my freedom amongst my own family, even with my brothers and sisters growing up, even in my own family with my wife and my children. It was sin that caused it. It was actually very simple. Just ask and put those sins away.

Be a free free grace child in a beautiful God’s Kingdom shining. These brothers are calling to them who are losing their way. If they're not answering, like it was mentioned, and believing in the wrong spirit. I would ask the brothers, everybody, to look at their own heart. Brothers and sisters, don’t you truly want to get to heaven? As a child, look into your own heart. No finger pointing, no reciting Bible portions as a defense. Just look at your own heart. Truly ask yourself, do you want to get to heaven? When the final day comes. Your name is written in the book, as it was said in one of the opening sermons. Your name is blotted out with the signature of Christ’s blood. No sin.

For me it is hard to imagine in my own weakness that without grace I would never make it. Without the gospel I would never survive. I wish to ask, can I believe my sins forgiven?

Hannu and Jared

Hannu Janhunen: Hannu Janhunen, Lethbridge. We also haven't been directly affected by these matters. However, of course, as has already been mentioned, when one member suffers, other members of the body suffer, too. We have, with sadness, read those letters, as was mentioned. And personally, I have heard those comments at the meetings I have been attending. They have not answered my spirit. I jotted a few notes or thoughts here. When one leaves the kingdom of God... One has fallen into spiritual defilement or other sins. I have heard that one has left the kingdom of God. One does not leave with a clean conscience. One can be pushed out of the kingdom of God. One always leaves by falling into sin..

Hannu Janhunen: I will relate to you my own psalm that I have related before a few times in the past, when I fell into the wrong spirit. I listened to the voice of the enemy speaking. There were accusations against a few brothers in our own congregation, servants of the word. It did not take much time, and I was the co worker of the enemy, battling against the kingdom of God. I went very quickly into total darkness. And it was only through the love of God when a meeting was held. The LLC brothers pointed out to me that I have fallen into the wrong spirit. God was able to give humbleness and obedience to the voice of the Holy Spirit. And I was able to put that sin away. I did not understand at the moment. But through the grace of God, he gave me that humbleness to accept that I had fallen into the wrong spirit. God through His grace in this way revealed the horrible condition that I had been in. I have always kept that in my mind. I am so fortunate for myself that it was a short time. But when it is a longer time that one is in this wrong spirit, it gets harder and harder to return. I would think.

It has been felt in some of the discussions that I've been at. It is my own feeling that this separation has, as has been mentioned, has already happened. If there is such a decision here, through the understanding and guidance of the Holy Spirit, that we formalize this. It does not change anything. The separation has already happened. And formalizing this, we could see it as yet another call for repentance. Or as we have heard here, I also acknowledge that we have heard two spirits here, the one that answers to the Holy Spirit and the other that does not.

The Kingdom of God is not some kind of social club, where we just socialize and agree to belong. And when someone or a group or even the congregation is rebuked in the hope that we would agree on some rules in the middle. The kingdom of God is always obedient to the instructions of the Holy Spirit. And we personally want to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit and the instructions that we receive. And then we want to humble ourselves to put the sins away, when we are instructed.

I feel, if we would not formalize this, there is a possibility of more confusion. And more people could be led astray through this lack of clarity. It's a bit difficult for us to come from more remote places to know: who should we greet and who should we not greet? And so forth. These were the thoughts that arose in my heart while listening to you speaking. And I find myself sinful. And.... I ask, can I also believe my sins forgiven?.

Jared Huhta: I had a couple of thoughts here. Jared, [Huhta] Prescott Valley. There's an article on the LLC website that was written or published on June 3. The title of the article is United with God. And I thought how appropriate several portions in this article are. I thought that I would read them. In the beginning it reads, the believers are unified by the Holy Spirit, the third person of God, Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. When you realize this unity, it makes temporal differences seem insignificant. However, it cannot ignore spiritual differences. This is where it is so important for believers to have the freedom to lovingly discuss and rebuke, when needed, to preserve this unity. It struck that thought in my mind that we're here at this point where as individuals, as humans, we do have those differences of opinion or thoughts. But we cannot have differences in spirit. And as has been mentioned, it's impossible to continue traveling in that way.

There's a portion further down where it says we want to encourage each other with patience and love praying that God through His Spirit would reveal matters at this time. It feels to me, listening to all the different speeches and also hearing the difference myself. The differences in spirits, there's two present here today. It feels that God is revealing these matters in his time today. After many years of discussions, I really feel for these brothers sitting up here in the front that have been on the forefront of this battle. For so many years, they've shown so much patience and love to these people that have in many ways not done unto them what they would want them. I've heard some of the stories of some of the heartache and trials that they've been through. In dealing with these spiritual differences, they've been so patient. And here today, we're gathered as congregations and employees and Board of Directors, and visitors of God’s congregation. We are gathered here today to care for the temporal and spiritual needs of our kingdom, as God has asked us to do when we serve. And I hope I'm not in the wrong myself. I sometimes feel very opinionated. But it feels to me that showing love to these congregations that are in error, and also caring for those brothers who have been battling this spiritual issue for so long. And showing an example for the youth and our own children that are growing up in this kingdom. With this confusion, we need to be very careful not to fall into the spirit of leniency and allow these differences in our midst and in God's kingdom.

≈So, I hope I'm not getting ahead of God's kingdom. And if I am, please correct me. But it feels appropriate at this time that we should come to some agreement in at least acknowledging these two different spirits, and in some way, shape or form. This greeting of God's peace that we have one to another as believers, it feels like we need to address that. And not only that but we send publications out to believers across this nation, and also in Finland, and in all these other missionaries that have developed. And if we have congregations that are not in unity, and we're openly acknowledging that they're not in unity, it also feels right that at this time, we should come to some agreement about what we do about that as well. Because how do we travel in unity, when we openly acknowledge that there are congregations that are not in unity with us, but yet we still publish them as though we're in unity.

So, if anything, I'd like to at this time ask for more discussion in those areas, specifically, and possibly even for a decision to be made. And what we do about those two things is specifically so people moving forward ≈can comfortably know what to do and how to address these as they come across them. And also, like I said, to care for these brothers that have been battling for so many years, to take some of that weight off them. We as delegates and trusted members of the congregation that the congregation is asked to come here and care for these matters, that we would show our support to them and help them in these ways. And also, I feel that by doing this showing love to these two congregations, and those individuals in the congregation that are being called to repent. And so some of those understandings and some of those things, those individuals may not understand. They might not feel or know exactly what the differences are. But know that there is a difference. And all that's required is a humble heart and the forgiveness of sins.

And if we have to through what's been referenced as Church Law of Christ and that final step, take action. Know that all it takes is simple repentance to be restored.

Moderator: There's a hand on the right side. Peter

Peter Ojala: God’s peace. It's nice to be here at summer services. My name is Peter Ojala from Seattle. And looking forward to coming to services here and gathering among believers. And greetings, my family to be among the believers .]

I have had many doubts about coming to this meeting. But as the bylaws say, the meeting is open to any member. And any member can feel free to speak. Though, if decisions are made, it will be reserved to the delegates.

And on this question that was just raised, and in some of the comments, and even in coming here, in the last few years, this Bible verse [I would like to share has been brought up by many different believers.

And even my weakness when I hear fellow believers in a way rebuking other believers from reading from the Bible. In some ways, .In some ways, I understand, in other ways I don't.

I just wanted to share this, because it is on my heart. This is from Luke 13. Beginning with the sixth verse. It is regarding all of us ..”He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.”

I don't know if I have much more to add on this, brothers and sisters. But It's my prayer that we recognize this ] sort of situation at this meeting, that we don't take any formal votes. I want to remain a believer with all of you.

I wanted to share freely what was on my heart. And if I'm wrong in these things, I want to be corrected.

And our brothers that serve on the LLC board in various roles as ministers.

Prayers of the believers are with you, too, that God would give you the words and the wisdom to do what called of you to do. And then before my speaking turn is over, I, too, want to remain a believer with each and every one of you. Can I believe my many sins forgiven?

Andrew Skoog: .... How much longer can we continue with this heresy? Jared took my thunder. We have already acknowledged that there's two spirits. The majority of the Minneapolis congregation is sitting in the back separate from us already. I don't know what else to say other than the formalities that have been discussed. I have my own children at home wondering what's the future of God's Kingdom. They're confused in the speeches from those that are battling God's kingdom. We keep talking about battling against God’s kingdom. It's almost like David and Goliath. The situation is going on to some degree… In many of the conversations we've had in Rockford at meetings. There have been many discussions or conversations going on that don't resonate with the Spirit. And yet the Spirit has resonated with silence at many of these meetings lately. There's nothing left to say. Even now I feel so empty.

I can’t resonate with some of these comments that come about. Even what Gary said about the Constitution. All I want to do is get to heaven and believe with the rest of zion..

The document is there just as a guideline. If you don't have the Holy Spirit, you have to lean on these things. Like we've heard in the presentation from Jon Blomquist. He put together a nice presentation on the two realms. If you don't have the spiritual realm, you need the earthly realm.…. We acknowledged that

Andrew Skoog (continued): there's two spirits. Why belabor on this topic?

Neil Waaraniemi: I’m not a delegate. When our brother spoke about the fig tree, it reminded me that it was seven years ago now at summer services when this open division started, I would say. It does not mean that things were well in all cases before that. But since then there has been an open battle in God’s Kingdom. You know in the fig tree parable that after three years. But do you know every year the division gets wider. There is no spiritual unity. That is the only thing that really matters that I have spiritual unity with God's kingdom. And if I don't have spiritual unity that official resignation means nothing. If I die with a false spirit, I am lost. Being technically called a Laestadian and to be a part of the LLC, it won’t save you. So, I agree with the speeches that have said it's a formality because we've been divided for years already. One brother brought up that board discussion in Menahga. When he heard this topic that was going to be discussed here at the annual meeting, he felt that it was time. I agree.

Moderator: Tim Niskanen and then Jim Frantti. Raise your hand

Tim Niskanen: Feeling my own sinfulness. I ask dear brothers and sisters, can you preach the gospel to me? I want to remain believing. The time that we are living in is really a sad time. We think of all of the difficulties throughout time. As we know, God's kingdom is a battling Kingdom. The prophet in the Old Testament had this question: how long are you going to halt between two opinions? And I remember the whole story. But we have to acknowledge that there has been in Christianity two spirits, and both cannot be right. One is true and one is false. And the only way that one can come on to living faith is to repent from this false spirit. And that is the prayer of the children of God here in America that none would be lost. We don't want anyone left by the wayside. But you know that the end is drawing nigh. We do not know how long we'll be able to serve. We have heard: Harden not your heart. To obey is better than sacrifice. So, with that my hope and prayer is that God will lead me, just like Joshua said. As for me and my household, we will follow the Lord.

Moderator: Okay, we've got Jim Frantti next and Jon Bloomquist and Paul

Jim Frantti: First of all, dear brothers and sisters, I asked for a speaking turn feeling my own weakness and small understanding and sinfulness. I ask, can I believe my sins forgiven?

I don’t want to say any words that would be harmful to the work of God’s kingdom. I have appreciated the openness of this discussion. Many times we've been asked, What are the differences? If there are two groups or two spirits, what are the differences? I have to say, having been through so many, many meetings over the last many years, seven years plus actually, probably closer to 11 years now, that the questions that have been raised about doctrinal topics or the teachings of God's Kingdom in North America. Those questions have not come from a majority of believers in general, but they've been raised by those who have criticized the North American Zion, and have questioned whether our teachings are correct. Those questions have come up in some meetings, and in a variety of other communications, even in some public mediums. And then accused the LLC and North American Zion of wrong doctrine, a number of issues, including such things as justification, forgiveness, confession, and the sacraments. My observation has been that those who have joined in the criticism of the North American Zion, don't appear to be a homogeneous group. Instead, we have heard the variety of understandings expressed on some of these doctrinal topics that they have raised. What seems to be common among them is this criticism of the North American Zion, of the LLC board and staff, of the ministers and the local congregation boards. It seems that their view of the North American Zion is that there's the general law-mindedness, the boards local and LLC, wrongly governed over in the household of God. The believers in North America live in fear and suffer spiritual abuse. And in fact, they hurt again this afternoon in this discussion, this accusation or statement of law-mindedness of the servants here in North America. And I have to say that, that picture of God’s kingdom in North America does not join how I have seen this North American Zion at all. I haven't experienced it as a place of law-mind and preaching. Nor as a place where the believers live in fear. You don't have to go beyond the last couple of days. They testify to the freedom and joy and how wonderful it is to be here in the fellowship of believers. I sure don’t see a throng that is living in fear and under oppression of the law. It somehow seems to be a wrong understanding of some of these of the doctrine of the congregation. And we've heard speaking, speeches that seem to separate the Word of God from the congregation and place the word above the congregation in some way. But our understanding is that the word and the congregation are inseparable.

Some have criticized believers when we speak of listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit. And questioned, how do we know when we hear the voice of the Holy Spirit? And it seems to me that the fruits that have appeared among some of those who are so critical, are bitterness, anger, a lack of forgiving mind toward the believers. Seems like it is easier to see the faults and point to them in North American Zion. And certainly, I only have to speak for myself to say that you don't have to look very hard to see faults. I feel like many of them have separated themselves from the fellowship with the believers. This has shown itself in not joining in the spirit of discussions. And not attending services. Some have stopped attending in their local congregations, or not attend in nearby neighboring congregations. There has been conducting of their own confirmation school, instead of participating in the confirmation school of the believers. Some have provided critical comments or information about the North American Zion to the outside of God's kingdom, for example, to Finnish newspaper that wrote an article on the matters of American Laestadians, or in the public podcast, or even personal blogs. And those kinds of actions are not according to God's Word. And in so many ways, it seems like people have separated themselves from the fellowship of believers. Sometimes we've heard that congregations like Minneapolis and Wolf Lake are being pushed out. In fact, recently when the LLC board asked if they can send some brothers there to visit those congregations. What we heard was that the board wanted to come there to push those congregations out of the fellowship of North American Zion. And yet the communication from the board was simply a loving request and comment, let's visit about your perspective on things. And what is the way forward?

It feels like we do hear, even here this afternoon, two different types of speeches? And when the question has come up here from the delegates, what or if anything that could or should be done here today. We didn't, of course, put on the Annual Meeting Agenda this topic or any kind of action item. But it's a meeting of the delegates. And the bylaws, authorize the delegates to take whatever actions. And, of course, they have the freedom to make motions and vote on motions and could freely make that decision today regarding these matters under discussion. I’m not encouraging or discouraging that but simply saying that there is freedom for the delegates to address these matters.

But I do have one question that I would like to ask, especially for those who are here from those congregations in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake that have been brought up here in this discussion, and from those who have spoken from those congregations whose speeches have not seemed to join with the spirit of the other speeches. And my question for you is simply this: is God's kingdom here today? Is God’s kingdom present here in this gathering? Is the Holy Spirit here? Is it speaking, guiding? It seems like, if you would answer, yes, then wouldn't you want to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying? Hear what God's Kingdom is saying? God doesn't ask great things of us. But when we are fighting against his kingdom, if we have fallen from faith or into a wrong spirit. What God asks of us is simple. He doesn't ask you for some great things. We don't have to defend ourselves, or explain ourselves, or justify ourselves, but simply find that we are faulty in these things and sinners, and we need our matters forgiven. But if you answer the question God's Kingdom, is it here today, is the Holy Spirit speaking? And if your answer is, no, then to me it's clear that we are not part of the same fellowship. And then I would wonder, Where do you see God's kingdom, if it is not here, speaking to me.

When we visited those two congregations, I shared my own personal story. I was not because it's one that I am proud of, but because of my own experience, I hope to help others who are struggling. Because I was one who was lost in the last heresy in 1973. And I was there for quite some time, three and a half years or better. And then God awakened my conscience. But I had so many questions and defenses, and somehow I thought, if I can get answers to all of my questions, then maybe I can decide, where is God's Kingdom. But it doesn't happen that way. And in fact, by God's grace, I was led to a home of an elderly, believing couple. And I sat at their kitchen table and told them that I have some questions I'd like to ask. I don't know where the right place is? And that older lady, her answer to me was this. She said, we will try to answer your questions. But she said, I don't understand. But I know this, my sins are forgiven and I have peace with God.

That simple answer stopped me. And the thought that came to me then was, if I leave this place this evening and I don't repent, maybe God will never call me again. And I had to put aside all my questions, all my defenses. I had to repent. And when the gospel was preached, it brought such peace and joy that my questions got left by the wayside. In time, God answered some of them. And the rest of them I forgot. I don't even remember today when those questions were. They weren't important anymore. It was only important that I could believe that my sins were forgiven. And so, I say to those of you who have been battling against God's congregation. Is God's kingdom here? Is the Holy Spirit here speaking? If it is, hear the voice of the spirit. Humble yourself. Repent of those matters into which you have fallen. The believers, with joy, preach the gospel. It is the most joyful duty the believers have is to preach the gospel, the forgiveness of sins, in the name and blood of Jesus. And it is the power of the gospel and the Holy Spirit that unites us into the flock of the Good Shepherd. That flock travels in unity of faith. We aren't divided. We don't have different ways of doing God's kingdom. And we travel.

Jon Bloomquist: Dear brothers and sisters, this is Jon Bloomquist from Menahga. I sat, listened and struggled with whether or not I should say anything at all. I've felt great sadness because of this turmoil that we have all recognized for many years. My thoughts still now go back to comments that Gary and Mitch made early in this discussion. Two short verses in Apostle Paul’s letter to Ephesians came to my mind. They connect very closely to the questions that my dear brother, Jim, just raised. Paul said, “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” It is truly a great mystery. I have pondered these two verses for many years. And I know now that I will never fully understand until the day that I die. It is such a great and deep mystery. Yet we believe and we know that they are true. We believe this by faith. When Gary and Mitch shared their thoughts, they spoke of their desire, if I understood them correctly or remember correctly, the desire to walk with the Lord Jesus. And I've heard others who have said similar.

I have wondered, why is it that you cannot see when his body is present here? It has spoken today. It has spoken now for years.

Christ and his Church are one flesh. They cannot be separated from one another. Christ is the head. The church is his body. When the Lord Jesus lived here in the flesh. There were many who had awaited his coming. And when he came, they did not recognize him. They did not believe in him because he was not the kind of Christ they wished for. It's really the same question that Jim just asked. Do you believe that God's Kingdom is here and that God's Spirit is here, that the body of Christ is here? He has spoken through many, many voices and mouths with one voice. We all recognize, however, as God's word reveals that God will not strive with man forever. As many have already noted, it feels like we have come to that point.

There's nothing more we can say. There is nothing more we can do. Peter referred to the words of Jesus’ parable. We have talked about that for several years already. None of us have wanted to rush ahead of God's time. But when God’s time has come, neither can we stop it.

We hope that God will open his matters to you and reveal them to you. You are dear to us.

I don't know why you have not been able to see how you have grieved the spirit of God, the suffering and pain you have brought in these years of struggle. But it has grieved the Spirit of God in his congregation.

There is another thought that keeps flitting in and out of my mind. I will try to grasp it here.

I think it is very clear, as many have noted, there are two voices and two spirits here. There has been for some time. We pray that God will open it to you.

I would like to ask, as well, can I believe my own doubts and sins forgiven?

Moderator: Paul Waaraniemi and Mitch Loukusa

Paul Waaraniemi: … unto something that I wanted to mention. You talked about questions, disappearing, falling away. Being answered when you can simply believe. That's the message. I want to try to say to the dear friends that are gathered here that they have been of a different mind. And you are dear to me, I think you know who you are. You are such precious friends. And I just want to say that believing is seeing. No amount of debate, no amount of writings or discussions will reveal it if you don't want to believe. Ask for gospel. Repent of your condition. And God will give the understanding you won't even have the questions.

And I was struck when I went to the back the restroom and got a coffee. How many of these dear friends are sitting outside of the auditorium. Maybe they came late? I don't know. But this picture came to my mind from a song. The word of our Redeemer is rich in charity. How great the exultation and praise of mercy towards my child, why are you standing outside the temple door? There are just two rooms here. That's not an issue. But I've been missing people at some of the bigger services and other occasions. And I just want to remind you that at the gathering of God's children, there's honey and manna; and the Lord is kind and sweet. He calls with love alluring, where truth and mercy meet. And at the summer services in that big tent…… oh rejoicing that could be if one would receive the grace of repentance. Grace of repentance for all of you

It doesn't matter if your family, your spouse, your friend, your son, your daughter, your parents are confused. God will clarify matters for you if you humble yourself to repent. It does not require understanding, no conditions. Just take care of your matters and believe. I implore you. I also ask to hear the gospel again?

Mitch Loukusa: I've had in some ways a lot of thoughts in my head. And in some ways I joined with those brothers who said, what more is there to be said? Here in Rockford in one of the board meetings, where delegates were invited to. We were even encouraged to be free. The Holy Spirit is revealed through much discussion. There has been much discussion. Personally, I felt those doubts and felt small. It seems as though the Holy Spirit is so clearly saying that now is the time. But yet feels, too, like it would be taking too much upon myself to make a formal motion.

But yet there is a portion from the Bible that is speaking to me from the 33rd chapter in Ezekiel. Verse seven says, “So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?“

I guess those words just speak to us, dear brothers and sisters, that we haven't volunteered for these positions. Our congregations have sent us. The spirit is speaking. And feels that it would be wrong to not keep that voice of the Spirit.

Freely and publicly, I guess making the situation known as it is. I guess I would at this time make the motion that we formally recognize the difference that Wolf Lake and Minneapolis do not travel together with North American Zion. I am not super familiar with the bylaws and what exactly that process would be. But we formally remove Wolf Lake and Minneapolis as congregations. That concludes my motion. If it's too hasty of a motion or I have taken too much upon myself, I ask that I be corrected. Can I hear the gospel?

Moderator: Cody, right behind you there was a hand earlier..

Jukka Niemi: Sitting here listening to this meeting many speeches, I personally feel myself, too, now's the time to make some kind of formal separation. I have heard so many speaking of the lost joy facing these kinds of situations.

I noted, as the rest of the delegates, to speak their mind. And, too, can I hear the gospel?

Timo Hotari: I think the children want to be free. Like the Waaraniemi brother mentioned, the tent is up. Summer services are a festive time. The children of God are the happiest people. We all live parallel with sin in our pocket. We were taught to put sin away. Those that have fallen into the wrong spirit, they want to cling to that wrong spirit. I want to second that motion to formally have a vote.

I’m also not familiar with the bylaws. The motion seconded, We decided today that we can celebrate the services and the joy that comes within God's Kingdom and once again be free.

Moderator: We have a motion and a second on the floor. There's another hand in the back for discussion.

Joan Parks: Joan Parks from Minneapolis. I am going to be free. God says there will be heresies, but he does not want heresy. I believe man creates heresy. Luther also says, persistence in wrong doctrine creates heresy.…and please I ask that the love of Christ and forgiveness reigns and we can listen to one another, not be quick to judge, and no evil spoken of our confessions of faith. We in Minneapolis pray that God's love could unite us. We endeavor to believe. I heard the SFC GREETINGS: It is important to preach a message of God’s peace. I also heard, God's desire is to serve. We in Minneapolis have been denied this being served. We have suffered from isolation. It has been painful. Many have not been greeted in God's Peace. I will confess how I believe.

I believe in the Apostle’s Creed. I believe in God the Father almighty, the creator of heaven and earth. I believe that Christ died for my sins, your sins, and sins of the world. Christ did this work on the cross for us. We cannot add anything to these drops of blood. It has all been done on our behalf. Christ cried, “it has been all fulfilled”. We must simply believe this, believe in the merit of the works of Christ. God wants all to be saved. I heard that the act of love is to separate. What does God's word say? In Romans 8:38 and 39, “For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

The Holy Spirit, which only comes by and through the word of God, God and Holy Spirit do not contradict each other. It is not possible. I hear a lot of talk about two spirits. There can be only one spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit.… The Holy Spirit cannot contradict God. It is Triune God, God the father, God the son, & the Holy Spirit. They are three in one. The Holy Spirit calls and gathers. It does not seek to divide. In John 14:26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” In Galatians 5:22 and 23, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” People have alluded to that we have been pushed out. One cannot be pushed out of God’s kingdom. It is not possible. The kingdom resides within us. It goes from heart to heart. Faith is personal. It’s a gift from God, a gift that no man can take from us. I believe in the promises of God. In a way, it feels so unfair that we have been labeled by so many in Zion, but yet have not had any discussions of how we believe with the ones that have labeled us. In Minneapolis on a couple of occasions we sent letters to the Midwest congregations inviting members to come visit with us about faith, the way and the journey, and how we believe. There have been decisions not to read our letter to the congregation to come and discuss with us. I believe that this is not the love of Christ. When the LLC representatives came to Minneapolis in May, most of the Minneapolis members spoke their personal psalms and confessions of faith. They begged to hear the gospel, and the gospel was preached. But it seems that was not enough. When one begs for forgiveness and the gospel is preached, I believe God forgives all sins. All are washed away in the deep sea of grace. Also, I am not sure if I heard correctly. Someone made a comment about Bible verses and reading them. I have understood that the Bible is our guide of faith. During times of spiritual battle, that is where we go… truth and life of faith. God speaks throughout the Bible about knowledge and wisdom of his word …God wants us to have knowledge and wisdom of God's Word.

A few people mentioned that we were sitting in the back. We came late. We were told to sit on the left side. I didn’t want to go to the front, so I stayed in the back. No, we were not trying to separate ourselves. That has not been our desire. I also feel very poor and weak. And I have many doubts. Can I have my sins forgiven?

Mitchell Johnson: This is Michelle Johnson from Wolf Lake. Before – It looks like there was a motion on the floor and a second. But before all the delegates actually raise their hand and approve this, seriously consider the fruits of the Spirit. They were mentioned already, but I feel it needs to be read again. For the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. Against such there is no law. So, to actually go through and do this vote and approve it – Seriously, it is tearing people apart, tearing believers apart. That is – and families. That is not a good way to go. Seriously, consider the effects of voting… with really no reason. So, I make a motion. Before excommunicating Wolf Lake and Minneapolis, they are judged with the Holy Word of God before committing that action.

Moderator: I believe we can only have one motion on the floor at a time. Are there any more discussions about the motion that was given by the delegates? Okay, in the back corner on the left.

Bryce Ojalehto: Bryce Ojalehto from Alaska. I don't believe I've ever been quite this nervous to take a turn at the mic. But me and the congregation in Alaska for the last year or two for sure. It's been clear that there are two spirits. And it's been openly acknowledged among many different people in many different times. And I don't know what the difference is between each individual. But it seems that the divide is evidently clear. And the call to repent and flee both Wolf Lake and Minneapolis congregations has been repeated many, many times. And the fruits of the Spirit, patience is certainly one of them. But also we know that Jesus says, A house divided against himself can not stand. And I don't know if now is the time for it to become official or not. But I think we need to ask ourselves what is the Holy Spirit preaching today? What is to benefit God's CONGREGATION? I do not know myself. But I pray that I will be able to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit and to be obedient to what God has to say. And rebuke is love. It is not an easy form of love to hear or an easy form of love to offer. But when God's children tell any of us that we need to repent, we know that even if we don't understand, it would be good that we be obedient to that. Can I hear the Gospel please?

Moderator: Okay, I've got a number of hands. Gary from Minneapolis. We are trying to limit the speeches for the delegates, if we could.

Gary Lehtola: So, actually we're at the annual meeting of a temporal organization here, which has a constitution and by-laws under the law in the state of Minnesota, and we also need to follow the Constitution. We can't go against the Constitution. And I guess I referred to those parts earlier. So, I won't read them all again. But Minneapolis – I'll just speak for Minneapolis – Minneapolis complies with the constitution and bylaws of this organization. So, based on that is impossible...

Jared Juusola: Jared Juusola of Monticello, formally chairman in Minneapolis. But before I speak, I'd like to hear the gospel. I have sometimes been sitting on my hands. I was, I have to say, disappointed to see those sitting in the back. Just to start with, I thought of those same words as Paul Waaraniemi, Why are you standing outside the temple door? It brought back – long before my lifetime. My mom was a baby. My grandpa was in unbelief. He had a troubled spirit. He was from UP. And they moved from the UP, they moved back to Minneapolis – My mom was born in LA – to be by the believers. But he couldn't go inside. My grandmother who grew up in an unbelievable home, she received the grace of repentance. But he couldn't make it inside the door. And as I recall his story, he's laying on the ground. But he can't even ask. He can’t reach. She gave him the grace of repentance. He lived as a believer. And that's what I saw there. It reminded me of that… for so many years. But then I've heard so many things here as well today.

So Gary, I'm going to address you directly. The bylaws state, as you said, that you believe in God and that you are in living faith. A year and a half ago, the believers left Minneapolis. It is not a believing congregation. The Holy Spirit LEFT..

It's been a long battle there. But the Holy Spirit, the believers LEFT. They kicked, they asked the speakers to leave. The board members couldn't go back. The congregation members couldn't go back. It was not as people said it happened. Believers left. It was hard for me to say when… God moved me to North Carolina and my family to protect us. But I've talked to many of those who left, they've not interested in going back. And then to say – it's a lie – that you've been denied God's word. Many in Minneapolis live closer to Rockford and live closer to other congregations and they chose to go to Minneapolis. God’s word is freely preached. There has been no denying to those in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. There's no denying that God's word is freely preached. And you choose to go somewhere else. You've lost your faith – there's no question. And then I can go to Luther's word. I have some of Luther's stuff, which was shared with me from somebody who I dearly love in Wolf Lake. It speaks about this. Those who speak differently and how and where you are, and how important it is to take care of matters. There is only ONE HOLY Christian Church, as we've heard, and we've heard about two spirits here – two spirits. Do you know what, there are two spirits. But there's only two spirits. John Lehtola taught me that there is the Holy Spirit and the spirit of unbelief. You can only be in one or the other.

My prayer is that I have the Holy Spirit. I believe that I have the Holy Spirit. So, then my question is, where does that leave you, when you go into these churches with a different spirit? It can only be in one or the other. And then we ask this question about – can we stay together and not have this action. It is so clear in these areas from Luther as well as the Bible. Many things the Bible says, make those who cause division among you and separate yourself from them. And then in Minneapolis they chose to separate themselves from the believers, just like we visually saw here. And then God's word says in Second Corinthians chapter six, verse 14, it says, “Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness. And what communion does light have with darkness?” We can't as believers be unequally yoked with unbelievers. It is very, very, very dangerous.

I did not come here with an agenda. I came here with the prayer that those in Minneapolis and Wolf Lake would repent. Repent where repentance needs to be, and God will show you. You don't need to understand. The Bible says we see so dimly that there is only one path. Jesus is clear, there's only one path. So, my prayer is that you can repent. But as believers, we need peace. And then I'll say one last thing. When we discussed this at Monticello, it brought peace to know that we are going to have this discussion here. This battle could be over. And that is the prayer that everyone could repent. But if not, that we would recognize and be able to have peace and unity in God's congregation… Again for my weaknesses and faults, can I hear the gospel one more time?

Moderator: Okay, there's two hands in the back.

Emily Parks: My name is Emily Parks, I'm from Minneapolis, I am a member there, and I still attend church in Minneapolis. And I didn't necessarily want to come here today, but I feel compelled to be here, because of the discussions that have taken place over the past few years, especially after members left, as Jared alluded to in September 2020.

I guess its interesting to hear some of the comments here that have been made very strongly, very boldly that there are two spirits here.

And we know that there can be many spirits. So, how do we know when it's right? This is something that I've talked about with many of my close friends, some that have left Minneapolis back in 2020, when other members left. I'm trying to understand why they felt they needed to leave. And we've had some very wonderful conversations and have been able to forgive each other and to keep the love that we've always known. So, it's been said before. But truly what are the fruits of the Spirit? Meekness, long suffering, patience. These have been difficult, no doubt for speakers that have been in the center of these things. They also would really like to sincerely ask that you consider what it's been for us as well. It's not been easy. It's made us truly examine what we believe and why we go to church. And I think that that's the thing to really consider, what are the fruits of the Spirit, especially that there are people that are saying very strongly that there are two spirits here without doubt. That's what I hear. So, what's unsettling to me is that I've been feeling a very strong feeling, you know, in some of the more recent meetings. I attended the national meeting in Monticello in May of 2021. And to me, it felt like there was a strong push for heresy, to cut off, especially the two congregations, Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. It seems to me that there's still a sense of that. I hear that some people and other people that do not attend Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. I felt nothing but love.

My question is – the Holy Spirit. I've always heard this. We've known this. The Holy Spirit calls, enlightens and gathers. So, to me what's so confusing and troubling is that there are people that seem eager to rid the problem, to take a vote on our individual faith. At the end of the day, that's what it is. That's my faith, that's my family's faith, other individual people's faith. That's one that is. I can say confidently that the members in Minneapolis do not wish to separate. That is not our desire. Our desire is that we could bring back the love and the peace that we've known for many years before these conflicts. That's our sincere desire. We want to be together. We do not want to be separate. But many statements that I've heard that may seem that we maybe would be supportive of going our own way, or that we have gone our way. Oh my goodness. We certainly do not feel that. There was also referenced that there was a meeting in May in Minneapolis with representatives from the LLC that came to our congregation. And we were all appreciative of that meeting and of that conversation. And when I left there, I felt at peace. I was able to say what I felt in my heart. And there are many people that were able to say what they felt in their heart.

And we also – there are many of us individually that have asked for gospel. The gospel was preached. And yet, it was kind of disheartening. When the synopsis came out from that meeting, It seemed like it wasn't enough. And I sincerely don't know what will be enough. Because I feel that each individual person has to come to the understanding of their own heart and their conscience and to take care of that for their own.

I also was a bit apprehensive about going to summer services, which made me feel sad. Sometimes when there have been many encounters where believers that I've known my entire life have declined to greet me without talking with me. It's hurtful. And it's also very uncomfortable at times when it's become very obvious that somebody has intentionally not greeted me. So, I felt a bit apprehensive about going to services yesterday. But I left so happy that I felt that same peace that I've always felt. I felt love mostly, is what I felt. And it just, I have no other way to describe it other than it just feels incredibly sad. To be listening to so many of the comments here that make me feel like we have run out of time. Like there's no reason for us. There's no hope for us. Well, that's not our desire. I really sincerely wish we could be heard. I wish we…. We have an abundance of forgiveness from God and Jesus. We know that. So why, why? Why are we so hesitant to truly forgive each other these things? There's a wonderful sermon last night to not be ashamed of the gospel. That was so true. Amen. And so why can we not forgive these things? We all have faults. We all have faults. We've overcomplicated this. Maybe we've made it an issue of man. We’ve made it an issue of man. It makes me sad that this is where we're at. My sincere hope would be that we can forgive from the heart so we can truly, truly move on from these things and it will release the need to harbor any negative feelings for fellow believers who simply are trying to believe and love for the sake of peace and love you always know. So, I would like to begin by asking for the gospel, for the offenses I may have caused, harsh words. Can I hear the gospel, please?

I want to believe with everyone. I can tell you that everyone from the Minneapolis congregation feels the exact same way.

Ann Parks: Ann Parks from Minneapolis. I had a lot of thoughts going through my mind today and heard a lot of things that were said. I appreciate hearing those things. One question that did come up and I thought it would be important to address: is God's kingdom here today? I believe it absolutely is. The Holy Spirit is here. Are we battling? We certainly are. There are... It brings to my mind the need for truth, spiritual truth and temporal truth.. And good things that we could discuss at some point. One really sad feeling that I have, something that brings me a lot of sadness. When I listen to people here – these images that are portrayed of Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. I feel like there's no way we can even begin to combat these kinds of images that have been stated about us.

Just to give an example. We aren't included in discussions, we don't attend. We rejected our speakers. We separated ourselves here, as someone already mentioned. Those are not the intentions of our heart. They're very far from our hearts. But for some reason. And that's why we need to be battling and pursuing the truth. We need to talk heart to heart, and discuss these matters. Not just take some person's word on what Minneapolis, so called, has done. You don't even know if it's true. There are a lot of things that are so extremely hurtful. We all know, if we were pulled over and we were wrongly accused of doing something out on the roads,… how if we went to fight that if we were not believing. It's, you know, you didn't do these things. It's that same type of feeling. We need to be extremely careful, brothers and sisters, in what we say to each other. And this thing about – a big thing that was mentioned even at the October meeting – back in 2020, I believe it was – regarding the rejection of our speakers. That is simply not true. They chose to leave and declined to serve us. So, things like that – those are just some examples of how we have been portrayed as something different than what we are. And if we would have truly wanted to separate, we wouldn't be here today. We could have gone a long time ago. But we have love in our hearts for all believers. To us, I think there are things that we really do need to discuss. And it would be a very healthy thing to discuss these things. We have love for all believers. And I do believe that there are issues that if we could actually discuss in the light of God's word, that'd be very helpful.

This other thing that keeps coming up is that we are critical and have bitterness, and lack of forgiving mind. This, unfortunately, can go both ways. We could say the same thing. And these are just whisperings of the enemy that seem to divide us. We need to put those things away from us.

Moderator: Due to the interest of time, we want to maybe just have the delegates speak from now on so we can wrap things up here. If you have some prepared statements, maybe you can email them. But in the interest of time, I just want to limit this to the delegates. If there's any more comments from the delegates.

Ann Parks: I do wish that Minneapolis could speak, because this meeting is actually about Minneapolis and Wolf Lake. What that idea here is or what I'm hearing.. is highly concerning, obviously. Regarding the two spirits, Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, and he fought that devil with the Word of God. If we don't use the word to defend our faith, what do we use? If it is truly the highest authority, as our bylaws instructs and our Constitution even states, why wouldn't we use it to defend what we believe is true?

Moderator: Okay, Ann, if we could just wrap it up. One more minute,

Ann Parks: The messages must be in harmony with what God has already revealed. “Knowing this first that no prophecy of Scripture is of a private interpretation of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” And then it further says, “beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.” We are commanded to test the spirits to see whether they are of God. The same command is referred to another portion, one Thessalonians Five, verse 20, where Paul states not to despise prophecies, but test everything. Hold fast to what is good. And the reason for this is that the possibility exists that there are people who claim that they have the spirit. So, wouldn't it be wise for us to test the spirits. I guess that's the most important. I would also advise to take a look at the song 417. And I feel that that would be a beautiful thing. I, too, for any offense that I caused, I would like to ask for the gospel.

Jordan Muhonen: Emily, I don’t believe I have spoken to you personally. Jordan Muhonen from Monticello. You did say something that stuck with me. But I should address it. You mentioned that there's a notion that there's no hope for those of you in Minneapolis. We just want to say that there is hope. That same call to repentance, which has already been extended, still applies. Even if this formal separation of the two churches is carried out, a call to repentance. There's been many speaking turns which alluded to this. The office of the Holy Spirit calls and gathers, enlightens and sanctifies the entire Christian church. And that's true. It's called… There has been much grief over the past many years. Peter, when you mentioned that parable. Well, it’s interesting how the recommendation was one year. Fertilize and water that plant for one year. It was brought to mind how many years ago – I don’t recall exactly how many – when these questions were first brought forward. We were discussing them. We were discussing them with my new grandpa, David Hillstrom, who has already weathered some of the storms in the past.

And he shared the thought that God is very patient. He is much more patient than we are. I can say for myself, my flesh, I would have wished these storms would have been over so long ago. But God has been patient. I have prayed many times over these years that somebody would be given but words of wisdom to divide right from wrong. The question has been asked so many times: what are the differences?

I have to say from my own part that I have heard differences. They have been listed even in the synopses of these meetings. I have sat in the same church benches you have. I have heard the same speeches. And we have walked out of the building with a different understanding

I don't know, like so many have said, I don't know either when God’s time is. We had a long meeting in Monticello. It was sober, united and a comforting meeting. There were some who expressed the thought that we are being too lenient allowing these continue to travel alongside these congregations which are openly acknowledged as not being in unity. The call to repentance is still open. Come and hear and repent and believe the gospel. I want to ask for my own part, can I believe?

Evan Loukusa: Dear fellow delegates, you had a long discussion this afternoon. I had heard from fellow delegates and other members of God’s congregation members. I have heard from dear brothers. I have heard from the Holy Spirit today. Our brother from Toronto touched my heart. He said that the children want to be free.…… I share with those who say perhaps that God’s time has come.

Moderator: At this time we have comments limited to the delegates. If the delegates have no more comments… Andrew

Andrew Jurmu: Andrew Jurmu from Elk River. Being a delegate in the congregation has been – I don’t know what you would call it – but it's been…

Many people in the congregation and maybe more importantly, my own family, have asked some of these questions, these hard questions, how do we meet? Or what are you guys waiting for? Or, if there's not similar beliefs, then what are we waiting for?

And I've struggled with this question? We've heard today about having congregations that aren't in unity with us, in our own Voice of Zion? And these questions are difficult, very difficult to answer. I think it's God's way of showing us that there is patience. There has been patience. It's been a long time. So, I believe that the Holy Spirit dwells there. If there is – what would you call it? – confusion, why do we keep traveling together?

One of the comments from the discussion with our congregation was. [this] I think it is really important what came from our congregation. The current spiritual issues with Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations continues to concern many in our congregation. There were requests to clarify the borders of God’s kingdom. If that's not a plea for help from our congregation, what more do we need? How many years do we live being uncomfortable? How long do we have this dwell on us? Even perhaps it caused dryness. Myself, sometimes I see somebody and I question.… I want this to be clear. I think that God's Kingdom needs these things to be clear. Those people that want to dwell in this kingdom, they don't need questions. They need peace. I don’t believe that these struggles that we've had in the past few years…. [brought peace]

Ward Plough: Ward Plough from Longview. I’m trying to put my scrambled thoughts together. In some ways, it feels like we've been insulated or sheltered a little bit from the brunt of the battles that you all have experienced here.

Also; I’d say that most congregations have experienced some difficulties related to this. In some way, our own congregation, we also have experienced some of that.

I would say that, as was mentioned earlier, in our local area, there are some who see... Or I guess I don't notice enough to notice if there's any…. But definitely, on some level there is less frequent attendance. And I think it's different, in that there's not another building to go to or another church to go to. The church buildings of Minneapolis and Wolf Lake, to me it's just a building. God's Kingdom is here. It is present. To those who desire to hear God's word and desire to believe, the word is available. It is preached very close. It's a unique situation here in Minnesota relative to the other congregations, where others may be struggling. There isn't another place where they can go – another building per se.

So, I guess try not to ramble too much. I guess, I have had a struggle to understand, why those who feel like they have not [been] served in Minneapolis, why have they not individually chosen to attend another service site where there is a speaker preaching? And I would encourage and remind – I agree with Jordan – regardless of what the decision is today, there is always hope for repentance while one lives. And I also want to encourage and remind everyone to trust that God is guiding us, the Holy Spirit is guiding us. And I think that's one of the struggles that has been evident – at least in our local congregation – Do we trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding our congregation, or do we not? We have to trust and believe that God will take care of us. In one of the ways he does this is that he guides us with the Holy Spirit in our congregations. It helps make the way to heaven clear through that guidance.

Moderator: Okay, so we have a motion on the floor and a second. We've had quite a bit of time for discussion. So at this time, I want to see a show of hands for all those who are actually – if we could, the motion was originally to not recommend Wolf Lake and Minneapolis as member congregations of the LLC. Is that correct? So, to get a show of hands that are in favor of that. A show of hands of those that are opposed. The motion stands.