Rockford Congregation Meeting: Delegate Report and Discussion, October 23, 2022

You know what is important. You know how to lead us, to call us gently to the middle of the road that leads to heaven's shore.

Dear Father, we are so small. You are so big. We just completely need your care. Thank you that you have given us your congregation, that you have been with us in spirit, that you have not taken your Holy Spirit from us. We take immense comfort in this, dear Father, that you are able to be with us on an yet today.

And that you are able to even know us and know our needs so completely, that you are able to give us even that which makes us peaceful in your congregation. Dear Father, we ask that you would bless our time together today, that you would grant us freedom to discuss, and that you would be able to support us in our endeavors.

Thank you for the many blessings that you have entered onto us. You have blessed us with our families, with your care and your congregation, and most of all, you have entered us with the forgiveness of our sins through the Lord Jesus.

Father, we yet desire to close all of our prayers and psalms of our hearts into that prayer that your Son has taught us. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Bless this day, our daily bread. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. Amen.

The summary of the annual meeting this summer. Very good, the shortest route, so it gets to moderate here.

Us delegates met a little while ago, and we read through the minutes, the closely meeting minutes from the end of the meeting this summer. And in reading through them, we thought that they very well captured the main contents of the meeting.

Some of them captured so well that I'll be basing one of these slides here. Some of the first things that were, you know, came up during the meeting were the LLC board terms and along with that the area realignment.

So, out of the five terms that were explained, one of those was Jim Frantti.

And with the proposed area re-alignment, one of those five was left open. But the motion, there was a motion to nominate Roger Plough, Mike Figueroa, Jim Jurmu, and Patrick [Lake], leaving that spot open, and that motion was approved.

And then later in the same evening, the proposed changes to the bylaws

Regarding the area review, that motion was also approved. So with that, the Southwest area needed to fill out an upward position. And just recently, on October 10th, there was a delegates meeting where Dave Edwards was appointed to fill that position.

So with the new realignment, Minnesota is now part of the East Central Mission Area. Another item on the annual meeting agenda was the timing of summer services.

And there was the two options of leaving it as is or moving one week later. And during the meeting there was an open discussion and many good points brought up in favor of both options. And maybe I'll read a little excerpt from the minutes here.

Delegates shared discussions from their own congregations. Pros and cons were discussed in option A or option B, from how it would affect confirmation school timing, travel considerations, to how many times there would be a timing conflict. Acknowledged, there is no right or wrong decision, yet no dominance or specific option prevailed.

I think out of the delegates that were there, at one point there was kind of a show of hands for what the support would be for keeping it the same or changing it, and it was about a 50-50 split where half was in favor of changing and half was in favor of keeping. But, so then, in order to

Now, not going around in circles on the same subject all day, there was a motion made to move 2023 summer services by one week, so move it one week later, and then revisit the subject in 2026, because the next time that this came to be relevant would be services in 2027, so that was

That was kind of how that discussion wrapped up, that changed it for next year to how it was revisited later, and that was the end of the period. Then there was a lot of discussion on the spiritual division, and on this I think the minutes also summarize this very well.

The delegates and meeting attendees had a long discussion that was free, open, and heartfelt regarding the spiritual division in the North American Zion. Many speeches by delegates expressed a loving call for repentance to restore unity. A different spirit was plainly evident in the speeches from Minneapolis and Wolf Lake delegates and guests.

Delegates then discussed whether it is God's time to formally acknowledge that the Minneapolis and Wolf Lake congregations do not travel together in a community of spirit with North American Zion. Comments noted that this is a formal acknowledgement of the spiritual division that has been openly acknowledged and has persisted for a number of years.

So, after quite a lengthy discussion, there was a motion to formally recognize the difference that Wolf Lake and Minneapolis do not travel together with North American Zion, and that we formally remove them as a member of congregations.

And after more discussion, after that motion was brought, the vast majority supported the motion.

That concludes everything that I have for the Delegates Report from the annual meeting after I have a song and a note to present and then there will be time for discussion after that.

Mitch talked about growing straws, but there was a reason Jim didn't catch a straw in the kitchen. So it is. I've been asked to prepare an introduction for a discussion that we could have in a little bit.

It hasn't been easy, and it's been a long journey. It's kind of a wrestling match internally of what do I say, and am I going to put things in the right direction for discussion, or do I complicate everything? It's been a

It did all matter for me to put my trust in God the Lord, for him to allow this. It felt like a gift I called for from the world of temptations and trials. So, in the very beginning, I asked, do I still believe in Jesus? I want to promise

So the question I'm sure is that why are we having a discussion? Why does it seem important to take away the 10.30 morning service and replace it with a congregation discussion?

It seems that it's important as a congregation that we would discuss what happened at the LLCA meeting, what it means and where it leads us as a congregation, and where we are in God's Kingdom.

This summer we had board meetings every month where we invited the speakers and delegates as well. And they felt in our discussions there that it feels important as a congregation that we would clearly state that there has been a heresy.

And where that leads us and how do we experience this through the care of the congregation and how do we experience it in our endeavor of faith. And then also this, that many in our congregation

are now navigating the difficult reality of the impact of this heresy among loved ones. And it's also, I think most importantly, it's just that we need encouragement along the way to heaven.

It's not so obvious for us always that we are on our way to heaven. We need encouragement. We need to be reminded of this. We need to care for God's people.

So, our brother spoke about the Colosseum Annual Meeting. I thought that I would also touch on my thoughts pertaining to the Colosseum Annual Meeting. What I remember from it, I was there for most of the meeting. Much of the meeting focused on the blessing of the work of God's Kingdom.

And we heard so much encouragement from the delegates for the work of God's Kingdom. That felt so good for me and for those of us who are beginning our work day in the work of God's Kingdom.

It also felt good for those who were retiring there at that time that these supports for the work of God's Kingdom were so clear and so abundant and that we felt a blessing in the direction of God's Kingdom and the work in our Zion.

And then as we heard too, it was right in the minutes that God facilitated, in the last stage, a lengthy discussion on the question of recognizing that [Wolf Lake and] Minneapolis do not travel with the believers. In the end of that discussion there was a near unanimous vote to remove them

And then the results or the hope of that vote was also this, that even this could open matters and could call members of Wolf Lake in Minneapolis. And not only them, but those who have been in spiritual sympathy with the spirit, the wrong spirit that has persisted there,

And that it would call them also away from that.

And I think that, collectively, what we experienced was that when we left that meeting, that we all left wondering what the future would hold. But we had answers. We had seen before us, in such short order and in such quick time, the revelation of God.

Many have expressed how they went to the meeting wondering what would happen, and then how they left the meeting wondering what had happened. I can only say how I experienced it, was that it was a sobering demonstration of God's love for us.

Nobody had any, there was nobody's personal will that was being exercised in any of it. There was a timidity that was there, and there was a difficulty to discuss what was there before us to discuss. But God led and guided. We want to be like that, even in this peaceful resolution to what had happened.

So from our summer board meetings, the board and speakers and delegates, we have to recognize that you don't have special revelations, but we are part of that level-headed block.

We have been given duties to bring forward matters to the congregation and to discuss the matters that the congregation brings to discuss in our meetings, but we won't have special revelation.

There we also, in our meetings, we need to ask for and accept the voice of the Holy Spirit. And we have experienced that in this. In my experience here, in a few short lines that I've attended for ladies, is that there is a peaceful unity in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

It seems like the discussions there in our board meetings, that they have opportunity for everyone to speak to. And that we hear from almost everyone every meeting. And we know how the board and speakers believe. We know also how the delegates believe also.

They have been invited to our meetings and it's been comforting for all of us to be there.

We discussed there in those meetings how the meetings that were before my time here, that there were those who have made comments and in other ways as well that some of you may not have commented and indicated even in the discussions of the difference here and that

They have just wanted to blend back in without caring for these matters. And that this is important to raise even before the congregation

We don't come to it in a high-minded or heavy-handed way, but that we know that the endeavor of faith is thought to live, and that he doesn't allow one to remain on the endeavor of faith that they're serving as two masters.

And it's a sobering matter for each of us to consider that we would know and that we would care for those matters. And even the encouragement is this, that they're cared for as far as they have reached.

That if someone has spoken even before the congregation and had a different experience, they'll be free to care for that even before the congregation. Not out of compulsion, but because it would be revealed unto them in the penitence of their own heart how they would care for the matters.

The church law of Christ was discussed in our meetings. It was discussed in this way that it is a law of love that helps believers care for one another. It's not there to care for those in heresy. But those who have left in heresy, that they are in hope.

And the Church Law of Christ is not meant to care for someone unworthy. And then we have even such rich examples in Jesus' teachings on how to care for one another. And this Church Law of Christ is another example of that, how we care for offenses among individuals.

And then this is for teens to have those in our circle or family or whatever it may be that we would be able to visit with them about where they are in these matters out of the care that is born for this church. That we also

Discuss there, that during this kind of discussion, that there has been this kind of maybe desire or attempt to, from those who have left the heresy, to then now come and care for personal offenses with God.

It's not possible anymore to care for those kind of matters with the gospel until heresy is forgiven. And that their unbelief would be forgiven also. That there would be a recognition of their own condition and that they would then be able to care for that. Because if you try to care for matters of someone in unbelief with the gospel, God isn't able to bless them.

We are in danger of ourself. It's a sobering matter that we would remember where the borders of God's kingdom are. It's so difficult when it's someone that we've known our entire lives. And they are now there in heresy and unbelief. And they have come then to care for some personal matters.

Their illness answers a bigger question of where they are. God has shown to them their heart conditions and that they are then floundering, unnoticed, and trying to care for something that isn't available to care for at that time.

The Gospel is here in the Kingdom of God, but it is not ours, it is God's. God allowed us to use it for two purposes.

The one is that it would transform one from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son. And then the other purpose is that it would wash away sin from the endeavor of faith. And therefore, offenses between believers.

And then the question is, what has happened in your relationships in this time? Spouses have been left on both sides of this place. They split right in the hole. Siblings have been left on both sides. Friends have had to conclude that people leave differently.

And some of us have now experienced the awkwardness of not being able to greet former believers. There hasn't been an easy time. And there's also been this tragedy that we've felt of spiritual death. We haven't

It's felt that we're in a time of mourning or a time of grieving. It's heavy, especially when it comes right home. When it comes there, you would maybe even dare want to carry on as normal.

But it's not, well it's normal, a new normal, but it's not the old dynamic that we had when we were all believing in the same God. It's then it's not possible to care for matters between each other, it's impossible. And it creates a heaviness among our loved ones. It's very difficult.

But in the midst of grieving also, we have also felt and heard, rejoicing, that we have been able to experience how it hasn't been of our own self, our own ability or understanding that we've been preserved, but God has preserved us in faith.

God has allowed women in peace to return among the kingdom of God, and we have rejoiced in this. We have rejoiced in this, that this is God's kingdom.

It was reminded to me, a couple of days ago, of how our brother, Mark Giuseppe, when he spoke here on Thursday, that God gave him a sermon on the beauty of God's people.

It almost seemed that maybe he would have gone in a different direction with that sermon. But God gave him the sermon that we needed here in our home country. He was able to then remind us, and God was able to remind us through him, of the beauty and care that is afforded us in the Kingdom of God.

The question was posed at the annual meeting, and I think it's still an important question. How does the congregation work to you? How do you see the congregation of God? Has its beauty diminished? Do you still see it as the...

Examples that we have in the Bible is the golden candlestick, the pillar and ground of the truth, or to see it in some other way. And also for us who have been preserved in faith, it's important that we are able to remember and consider that the battle of the stars

From the beginning to end, it was a spiritual battle, but God pushed out that spirit out of us. We had nothing to do with it.

I remember a sermon from the, of my father's from the 1974, where he spoke in Finnish, and I don't speak Finnish, I understand Finnish, but it was roughly translated for me at one time. And one of the things that he spoke there, this was shortly after the heresy, is that

God showed us that it was his battle all about. And even, I think it's important for us to remember this today. That we are citizens of God's kingdom. That it isn't our kingdom. And that the beauty is even in this.

There is only one kingdom of God. We say in the Lord's Prayer, for thine is the kingdom,

I heard at a camp, at a speaker's camp, of an example that is so clear of how we even have to truly believe it. It explained that sentiment for dying is a sentiment so clearly to me.

The one brother that felt the heaviness of difficult meetings in a congregation where he had been participating in those meetings and had been, this was in Finland, and then his co-worker, or a friend in faith, a co-worker had come to visit him at the office

The next morning after those meetings we observed him there in his new office with his head between his knees in heaviness. And he said simply to him, for thine is the kingdom,

That even in the midst of battle, that we have to remember that it is all God's work. We don't take on this kind of battle for ourself. We don't bring it anywhere with us other than this, that we are all to serve God's children.

And that when the opportunity comes for us to speak of matters that we would freely and prayerfully be able to visit about the matters of those who we are concerned with. Faith is God's gift. We know it so personally.

None of us have deserved the gift of faith, but God has given it to us. And repentance is also God's gift. It's not possible for any of us to open

The hearts matters to someone else. That repentance is a deep matter, personal matter, but it is simply destiny. The change of heart over matters of sin.

And that when God gives that change of heart, that then it leaves one to put those matters away in the gospel of the forgiveness of sins and God's kingdom.

We have noticed that peace has descended here in God's kingdom. We also recognize that those who are lost may even feel the peace of a quiet battle. And when the battle is quiet and everyone hears the silence, and now this is moved on, I hope we recognize that

This isn't the peace that is lasting or that is anything comforting than this. And yet I'm sure it's there that now these matters have to be discussed. God's Kingdom has moved on from these matters and that there has been a little bit of separation that has brought some peace there.

But in God's kingdom we experience a different peace. We experience the peace with God. Last weekend at the fall services there in Elk River, the brother spoke on Friday evening from the text from

John 14, verse 27. And it seemed like that verse kept coming up a few times over the weekend. And it says, Jesus speaking, he said, Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you, not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

We are able to experience the absence of fear in God's kingdom. There was a sentence from the introduction that was presented in the event on the

I took one of the point of work meetings recently that I thought was very important to include in this, that the history of Christianity also shows that even during times of battle, the good shepherd cares for his flock, and especially the weakest flock. It's good to be weak about sin.

The Apostle Paul experienced that also, where he was able to conclude then that when he was weak, then Christ was strong.

We don't put our strength in ourselves. We allow ourselves to feel our own weakness, our own shortcomings, our own matters that have come upon us, and that we are able to then understand that the strength for the endeavor of faith comes from the Lord Jesus. I don't think it's possible

God's kingdom to come to the services and the discussions of God's children, feeling our own strength or our own ability to pursue. Rather we come with prayers that God will even be able to open to such a week one before one, the beauty and peace of this congregation. Dear brothers and sisters,

You don't have to be so troubled by your own weakness or your own sinfulness, your own doubts or fears. You can simply and completely uplift your hearts, even this morning,

God has given us this opportunity where we can visit about these matters, and we, as a family congregation, we know that the battle is God's, and that then the battle will be ended when Christ descends from the clouds.

We don't know when God will send him, but we know that all will see him and that he will gather his own unto him. Dear brothers and sisters, you are one of his own and he will gather unto himself.

Remain in Christ's name, believing in Christ. Remain believing in all of your sins and forgiveness. In Jesus' name we pray. May God bless our world.

Okay. Thank you, Alan, for the presentation and for being able to say that. I'm scared to answer what has been presented. It's nice to see so many here.

We have some time to discuss here. Lunch is being prepared for noon. If we need to, we can continue discussion in the afternoon. But we have 40 minutes or so here, so...

B3, I have a pen and paper to write your name down so you don't need to wait for the speaking turn to stand, so you're welcome.

I also want to first say that my spirit also to what dear brother had said it. I'm thankful that we can have this kind of discussion and thankful that I'm with him.

Clear words to describe what has happened and where we are. The reason for my request to speak in turn is when we read, as we have read many times during the last few years, one example of what heresies

And you recall what happened. There were mighty men, gifted, known men who rose up against Moses and Aaron. And when we read it, it feels like

Like, the main reason for them being unhappy was

This is, of course, my own interpretation. It was not the work of Montez, but it was the reason that they felt they had not been used as much as they should have been used. They saw their gifts, which were real. They were gifted men. They were known amongst the congregation.

And they felt that Moses has taken too much upon himself. And the day came when God made the decision. And he destroyed those men who rose against the leadership in God's kingdom.

And that is not the only time when it has happened. The life, the history of living Christianity shows how it goes. God resists those who rise against those whom he has put to serve.

But what I'm trying to say is what happened on the next day. So this battle did not end into destruction of Korah and those 250 leaders, but there's much more to come. Numbers 16:41.

But on the morrow, so the next day, all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the Lord. So you have killed living people. You made it wrong. It's your fault that you were killed.

And when we read that what happened was God who destroyed, who could open the earth and swallow them except God? But the murmuring was against Moses and Aaron. And that means in our church that

If somebody starts saying that that was a wrong decision, I don't agree with that. That was hasty, that was whatever, something, and it was wrong.

That the LLC or the men or whatever way it's been put, that it was men's decision. It was not God's. But it was humans who cut off a part from God's kingdom. And what happened, the wrath of God started, and it says here,

You can read it on your own leisure. Numbers 16. But the plague began and it destroyed 14,700. So the next day, how many times? 50 times more or so. On the first day God destroyed 250 and the next day he destroyed almost 15,000.

And that's been my prayer. That God would keep us from falling into that trap. That we would not start fighting against what God did.

I agree, as Alan said in his presentation, God showed his love to his congregation. The day came, it came from God. It was the decision of God, not of man. May God help us all clearly see and understand that men did not push people away from God's kingdom.

But as we have, during the years, been taught and believed that God cleans, purges, as we say, the threshing floor, the number of believers did not diminish. The number of believers did not change. But those who had lost the gift of faith walked out from God's kingdom with their own feet.

And we recognize that in a time of need.

I guess I just had a question. So earlier in the introduction, I think there was something about the gospel and all that too. So I was curious, if the heretic attends church here, for example, and hears the gospel preached and they believe it, are their sins forgiven or does it not work? So I guess I'd be interested in hearing some clarification on that.

Yeah, a couple of thoughts I had on this.

Going into this discussion today, when we talked to Alan about preparing this topic, it was brought up that we should be presenting this topic to the believers. And hearing this presentation this morning, I have to say it certainly answered and it was very much comforted.

There's not one portion of the message that I would question or change. So I would say it was perfect for what we needed here.

The discussions over these past years have some comments I would say have cast a bit of a shadow on how believers here in America believe relative to Finland. That seems to have been the theme coming from some.

But I would just say that the recent reports that we've heard from meetings that have been, those joint meetings with SRK and SFC, it's just been so comforting and reassuring to hear that the spirit is the same there today as it was years ago, and it's the same here.

I just want to also encourage those that are doubtful as to what happened, this heresy that is taking place now, that it is not an easy

I think for us to comprehend as humans, there's that emotional side that we have of those loved ones that are so close to us and maybe that have been lost and our own minds want to understand that and put some kind of fine point on exactly what happened

I would just want to encourage you that God's kingdom is here to comfort you and care for you and put those doubts and those wrong understandings away and God will give that comfort.

I wasn't prepared to answer Zach's question there, but I just have to say that I really agree with the message that was presented in the presentation of how

It seems as if someone wants to put away a personal matter to somebody that isn't a heretic of faith or an unbeliever. I don't see how that spirit can care for that without first joining in the same spirit and unifying

To me, it would be like no different than trying to go here for a matter of the gospel with somebody else in the heritage of the church or any unbelieving church. It just does not answer. Before I impose a speaking term, though, I do want to

I confess my own dryness and impatience over these matters, even wondering why we would even need such a discussion today. I'm not really ready to just move on. But knowing that this is what the congregation needs, I want to put my own

I want to envision a way to yield to the will of God's kingdom and to ask for my free wills and sins. Once Mike was here, I was...

I say that my spirit said amen to the presentation. I thought it was very nice and glad that I was able to be here. I think it's helpful.

I think this fourth bullet point says faith is God's gift and repentance is God's gift. It's God who causes the heart to be softened too.

Allow a person to accept that gospel that would free them from their unbelief or heresies. Nothing that we can do of ourselves that we don't need to be afraid of on us. They consider him the prayer that anyone who is lost is able to someday find that repentance.

Who would like to be next? Randy, I'll grab you.

We all got this, this region. They had us and took us and comforted us. We wanted to thank our delegates and encourage them. Our real license has been that, especially since your time this year in that role. And prior to joining the community,

I expressed my delegates to please feel free to serve in the spirit of the meeting. And so I was able to attend the meeting in the afternoon, or the meeting when this matter came forth. And certainly the atmosphere will play

And we have to just say how it's marvelous how God's Spirit works and to say it for them. And know that there are those who have felt disillusioned with manhood, or that the old sin was driving their religion.

They don't believe that. It was a matter that some were perhaps aware ahead of time that this topic would come to the board, or might come to the board. It wasn't an agenda item. It came from the delegates representing the sentiments, the discussions.

They came forth in the congregations, and we happened to be in Holcote the Sunday after the minutes had come forth, and their billing was due for the meeting on Sunday morning, about the meeting on Sunday morning.

And it was just so touching to hear her brothers serving that congregation. One was so emotional when it came to this topic, and the other brother took over. And similarly, they did how...

During the business meetings, unfortunately, the duties again were scattered. I wondered what you think, but then when the discussion took place, the delegates and speeches of non-delegates who also participated, it was so clear that it was uncomfortable to support this decision which we made.

And, like we heard in the presentation, I do wonder what does this mean for the days ahead? And deal with my brother's given words to address all the kinds of thoughts and questions that I've had over these past weeks or months.

This day, for a while I was visiting with some of our family members and I was saying how I've gone through a time of wondering, but now in more recent times,

The gatherings of the leaders that have attended have been so comforting and it's been so clear. Those services in Coquitlam and other services are vital and different because

And so, as we heard, there's been sorrow and joy. Sorrow over those who have been lost and the loved ones that we acknowledge and no longer live in a state of loneliness. But yet, joy that the

The tensions that we felt coming to different gatherings and as children don't no longer have to be there, but with joy we are able to move forward. And it still is the hope and the prayer that God could open the hearts of those who have lost their hearts.

I thought also, in the recently [word unclear] brothers and sisters, not many of you are here today who were members of Minneapolis congregation, not all that long ago, but who left

Some different times, but maybe at one time, when the longer you remain in that environment. And I think that it tells so much when you heard this song.

How they're not able to, or first of all, may be able to remove themselves from this contentious environment which is not of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. Many of us felt that not even being there but in different meetings, small or large, and that it feels good to be free from that.

One portion of God's word that has been in my mind up here. I referred to this when I was speaking during the other evening, but it's

That's the thinking of Apostle Paul's first letter to Timothy. Because there Paul spoke to Timothy on one hand how Timothy should preach as he was serving as an under brother to Paul, but also how Timothy should believe himself

And he spoke about withdrawing himself from divisions, or those who have a different understanding, a different doctrine. And as I was reading about this portion, what I understood was there was a time when there was a heresy already in the early days of the New Testament. There were the Gnostics who

Who had different beliefs, but one of their beliefs was a superior spiritual knowledge, that the unrighteous are justified through this kind of understanding of greater knowledge. And I think sums up nicely at the end of this first letter, Timothy Cole writes,

To him, any man who teach otherwise and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto the doctrine which is according to godliness, be as proud, and knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes and words, whereof cometh envy, strife, and malice, he that surmises.

Perverse disputings of command of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness, from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. But thou, man of God, pleadest.

And all other righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness, fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and as professed in your confession, for me witness this.

Charge them that our riches in this world may be not only for our trust in certain riches, but in the living God, who gave us richly all things to enjoy. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

You're pretty much forced to study in this letter, but what struck me is how Paul's construction contributed to avoiding these things that draw himself from those that teach otherwise. And why would he do this construction?

Because we know that God's word tells us also to go forth and preach the gospel. But now in this situation he is instructed to withdraw oneself, avoid obeying your main values, and further in the chapter he refers to the main values.

I think he's referring to those who are not here. And to hear or listen to all this is dangerous, but one might think that's why believers needed to leave that environment. And so it is uncomfortable for us to think that perhaps we need to avoid those who have believed in the land of battle.

But I think there's a difference between those who are confused and need more encouragement and support, versus those who are [leaving] the kingdom of God.

I feel that this too is an instruction, a good instruction for us to avoid the environments, avoid those things that are different. If at one point or another you're learning value,

He was here visiting about these spiritual matters once. He says, I always want to be willing to visit for those who are

I don't want to visit the matters of personal faith, but I don't want to visit if they want to come to change my belief. And in that way, it's a protection to withdraw from myself.

My heart goes out to brothers and sisters who suffer this kind of separation, close friends and family and even spouses, where there's no longer the bond of living faith. May God help them to give strength, but yet employ each other in this way for our own faith's protection.

You all may come and be seated and be assessed, exhorted, and eased.

They aren't edifying to us in our lives that they would be able to report more questions and more questions that would confuse us and create doubts that we can't really avoid.

My thoughts are probably all scattered, so bear with me. Last year at Pantsir, it was painful for the words that God gave Ellen to share with us. Much instruction and much reminders to us about the battle

First of all, that's personal in our own lives of faith. And also that of God's. We have a degree that being in attendance

I would like to share that this time, and for myself too, I would like to encourage those who are struggling, those who are poor,

What we do here, we're here on congregation to show love to them, to support them in their lonely place of watching them. Of course, they still have that temporal family that they belong to. But I'd even say to you, if there are those of you here this morning,

That this family of God is sitting here in benches, praying for you, and here to care for you. Make sure it feels a little faint. You've got to let them know this, that God's holding you.

In trial, remember, praise God. God is above all things and knows all things. And can we trust that and believe that? I personally, when I'm in trial, wonder if it's time to know. But He does, because He allows mistakes.

And Zach, when you asked that question that if a heretic were, he would just say, I'm going to be a priest to this church. And here's the gospel preached from the pulpit as that person that, like, it's clearly stated up here in that fourth point, that repentance is God's to you.

God knows how it is for each and every one of us sitting here. If we are penitent and feel sorrow or remorse for sin, we can believe that gospel that's preached from the pulpit. But more importantly then, is there a change of life that happens?

Or does this person keep coming back and saying, I hear the gospel preached, therefore I love you. Like that, when they leave these stories, they live a life of unbelief. There's a difference. So I hope that this question that you brought, that if it is that sort of a struggle for you,

That you would listen to what God's kingdom continues to teach. Of course, there's forgiveness for all sin. Jesus died on the cross for all sin. But by doing so, he didn't make us sinless. But forgiven sins we believe. But yet that only is God's, out of our own duty.

I would ask for myself to be on my face. It was a tough task, but it was pretty good. And I'll see you again next time.

The thoughts that have been expressed, the presentation, the comments, the answer from my spirit of the Father. Thank you that God has led us to this point. Even more thankful that God is not leaving this world, that we may be preserved in his kingdom. At the time, the battle was difficult, and it remains difficult.

I woke through the night. From the time I was a little boy, I had night terrors and nightmares where everyone called and I continued to be their neighbor. I woke through the night.

For some reason, they scheduled a music camp in the mountains somewhere. I don't know what the studio was called. I don't know. I didn't recognize it. And they had given a certain address, but that address didn't come up to me when I left to do that camp by myself.

It was a fitful trip of going this way and that way, trails were this way and that way, and there was different intersections to go to, and nothing seemed to be working. And the night was coming, there was a fear that was coming, the cold of the night was coming, no food and water, and where would I end up that night?

In that wonder, in that commotion of people, there ended up being one of my young sons. And he came, and he sat next to me. And we were able to talk to each other. When I woke up, it was kind of an unsettling feeling.

I've been thinking about this meeting too much, but I was reflecting back on those days where it felt there were so many different trails and so many different avenues and possibilities and questions and all of that that came. And where is God's kingdom? Where is the truth and how do we know that the truth is?

We are yet comforted with this as we stand here. Some that this is God's gift for dwelling here. We are so thankful that I and we have been preserved through this time of battle. Remember, this is going to probably not so

[unclear] said that he is in the spirit of the heresy of the 1970s period. [passage not intelligible to the transcriber] Primarily because he felt how

He was in his old faith life. But yet God had spared him. This is what I thought this morning as I awoke during the night that God has revealed the way. It's not impossible. And there's food and there's protection here in God's name. And more so, there's a direction.

We don't have to depend on ourselves. I don't need to depend on myself to find the right trail or the right pathway. But yet, it is God's commandment that we battle escapes. So we can, I think, each one of us rejoice in it. God has spared us.

For those who live down the street, who've lost the lake, who are trying with their own mind to figure the way to heaven. But yet if God has preserved this symbol, silent like faith in your heart, you're in the best. So I rejoice today that I am here.

I think we can go forward as a congregation and as a kingdom that trusting God will and does care for His own people, even the weakest ones. Especially the weakest ones who need so much care and support.

I have also dealt with my own wounds in the battle of the U.S. States, in the dryness of the U.S., in the downness of the U.S.

I want to put the discussion short. There's comments. Take them now. If there's need for more discussion, we could pray for lunch in the back, but it's up to you.

So, this was, I guess, a follow-up to Zach's question. I think Jim had addressed it. This was somewhat confusing for me as well.

It said, and I'm going to point that out, that there are personal matters with some people who are in heresy. The gospel will take care of that. And my understanding is that there has to be a gospel.

And it's not up to us to determine if someone is serving or creating some qualifications or forgiveness.

And I don't think that is up to me to determine if someone is qualified or not. If that is me, then I'm happy to be here.

That question of life, that's all. Where it is preached and how it is preached and when it is preached. It has rumbled in my mind too because of this recent separation that we have seen.

Because of those ones that we had to come to understanding or acceptance or to where we are and where they are.

And as the discussions have taken place with them, my lack of ability to always be talking, say things in a good way, has been like this.

And yet, through the discussions, it's become clear that we aren't the same. It's very different. And so I struggle with how to care for that man or this woman whose role I'm playing. And likewise,

But the one that isn't any longer with us, when they would ask for offenses to be forgiven, how then can I approach them or how do I deal with that? So this has been something that has been really very close to me recently. And I can go back on slide.

Maybe it was not on the slide. Maybe it was just something he said. But that the Gospel has two purposes. It brings one from unbelief into God's Kingdom. And then it comforts and edifies one in God's Kingdom.

It seems so clarifying to me that I no longer can ask, of course, forgiveness for someone that is no longer with us to have the Gospel preached because, of course, the Spirit is not in that forgiveness, but I certainly can apologize.

And then the other thing is to remember that the Gospel belongs in God's Kingdom. It is for the believers. And so the question, at least in my understanding,

Correct me if I'm not right on this, but the gospel preached from her pulpit is a perfect gospel. And it edifies, it uplifts, it conquers the heart of a believer. It can also translate one from unbelief into believing.

That would be repentance, which is a change of heart. And so, when one would hear the gospel preached with the pulpit, you receive it according to the condition of your heart.

To take the gospel and say it forgave my sins and to go on and continue my life, whether it would be worldly life or whatever it would be, or to continue in a battle against the kingdom or in a bitterness towards other believers or whatever the case may be. Everybody has their own sins and their own faults. Would be...

I think, as the study has called it, grace leads, that they would take the comfort of the gospel and God's grace, but not be obedient to God's word. I don't know if I understand that correct, but that is where I, I guess that's kind of what I understood then.

With what was their presentation called? The Gospel, that they said are our believers. Then the only other thought that I had

It's in these discussions with those that are our believers. Of course, we want to discuss with them and we want to even ask, where are you? As he said, you can't go back to masters. You'll love the one and hate the other. Or despise the one and hate the other. But it is a case that we would want to clarify

Especially with those that are very close to us and can bring confusion into our life as to if we've walked with you for so many years of our life, how are you? And so that question could be, you know, the receiving of the gospel, that where are you? And in those discussions, that we could address to a point.

Interviews and conversation items offered, or would you like to be the subject of one?

Information, if you'd like me to send you this or that or whatever it was. And I just said no. And yet when Randy was speaking about leaving that behind us, it also brought a part in Korah's demise where he says God tells him to go to the congregation and say, leave them.

And he doesn't just say, leave them. He says, and don't take anything of theirs and do not touch anything of theirs. Because I can see where if I was beginning to be given information, it could become very confusing because so many of our issues that we have dealt with for many, many years have been so close. And there's just been a slight mediation

And I don't want to over. So I just thought that I would want to be part of that. But these are heavy. These are the scriptures.

I'm hoping that I can show the proper love that I have for them and not be dried up by it. Oh, how sincere you are in Jesus' name.

I was wondering if you could map a couple of slides that you were mapping a couple of minutes ago. I don't know if it was on the slide, but it was kind of brought up that the gospel is for in God's kingdom.

This verse is from Mark 16, from verse 15-16, where Jesus had his disciples who believed.

And he said to them, go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. It seems like, at least in that verse, it's pretty clear that Christ is telling us to go preach the gospel to the whole world. And it doesn't seem like it should be restricted just to God's kingdom.

I think if we are saying that it's only for God's Kingdom that Christ has to preach to the whole world, we should maybe think about that earlier, reconcile those ideas.

See if I can get my words straight here. I think that talking about preaching the gospel to go from the heresy, it's not meaning that the gospel is not for those who are... I feel like it's more meaning...

If there's one who really has been battling and has left God's kingdom and the heresy and kind of wants to still kind of like meld in with the believers, they don't want to impact that separation that has already happened, but they kind of want to stay part of the believers even though they're not believing anymore. And if they're...

Yeah, I guess I don't know. I would pray that that would reveal in those situations that the gospel, it feels like you're in a calm corner of a calm place. I don't think they want to talk about that too much, whether they have a, or I don't know, I guess how I feel like I'd worry about that a little bit.

I guess if the person does not truly want to repent, then God would not allow the gospel to be preached in that situation. That's really, I guess, how I view it. [passage not intelligible to the transcriber]

Well, I was just going to suggest that we would break for lunch and resume our discussion after, and hopefully then I will have a chance to put my thoughts together and kind of see it all over again. Certainly I did take my turn, my speaking turn, after lunch.

Maybe we could all sing the first verse of the meal song and then pray for a long time.

Thank you to Alan for the introduction.

Who's this? Robert. Robert Raisanen. Oh, we can sit over here. So this...

As we mourn this, this happened, this heresy has affected so many of us, affected so many people in our congregation around North American Zion. But it has felt so good to be a community of God's kingdom and be able to experience

That sphere of peace that comes with that union. Over the past seven years or more, we've had so many discussions, we've had so many visits, and it feels that we've been pulled one way, this way, and that way,

The speech has alluded to that there was many different paths and roads that could go down. Yet, here we are. That God has, through His Spirit, kept us this way through His Spirit. We've heard a couple of questions surrounding the gospel.

And prior to lunch, I had some thoughts surrounding that, and now as I sit here, the thoughts have kind of scattered, and I don't seem to remember them. But it's made me look better. Those comments that I had maybe may not have made sense or marked my head for this time. When I think about the gospel, you don't need to

We don't need to analyze who it's for and what it's for. It's very simple that who is the gospel and who is the gospel for? It's for the penitent and for the remorseful. When we are believing and we want to put matters away,

We preach absolution one to another. We take care of those matters that we know of and that we feel in our heart. And with that comes repentance. And repentance is that change of heart. We wouldn't want to go there anymore and fall into those matters that have caused us to

Feel that grief in our heart. And we can continue on with new promises to God. While it is true that gospel is for anyone, I also believe that there's those times when that we wouldn't necessarily preach that gospel.

I just think to that time, to a time, for instance, I have two unbelieving children. There was an offense that came between us. And they wanted to take care of that offense. Taking care of that offense and not their unbelief.

And of course, we would forgive from the heart that I can look past this event that has happened, but it is not absolution. And their state would ask for absolution from their unbelief, but from that other smaller offense.

I know those discussions, and we would pray that those discussions, if that were to happen, that those discussions would come to be, that we want to take care of the unbelief that's happening. We just felt so secure to be here in God's kingdom.

You don't need to sit here and analyze one thing or another that go into the Bible and point out and try to find ways to trip each other up with questions. Yet we can simply believe.

Jesus was asked by his disciples, who is the greatest? And we all know what Jesus' answer was. He picked up that child. It's childlike faith that preserves us in God's kingdom. It is not by great knowledge, great wisdom, great understanding,

Are you able to pointedly come up with a question that might trip somebody up and say that, see, now I'm smarter, or I have more knowledge than you. The Pharisees were very good at that in Jesus' time. Of course, Jesus, being also God, had to be tripped up.

A believer who just wants to endeavor can be very easy to be able to get tripped up and confused. If it is our true desire to want to make it to heaven, we need to become as that little child. We need to put away those matters, those offenses that have occurred

It's making those new promises to God that I would no longer continue going down this other path. I would no longer desire to hold

Those that departed God's kingdom as brothers and sisters were made. It is a very difficult matter, especially for our own flesh. Just as my own unbelieving children, I want to be able to say that

All you need to do is just simply believe. They have said that they cannot believe any longer. Those that have now departed in heresy, they can no longer believe that God's Kingdom is with us here in North American Zion.

The God Spirit and the congregation are one. Instead, it is felt that there needs to be great wisdom, great knowledge. But there isn't that childlike faith and that fruit grace that carries us.

Over these years I've, so many, I've felt I've gone this way and that way and in my own mind I've felt myself, the dryness, I've mostly felt myself with that spirit of

I can't think of a word in that spirit of too much freedom. We've had to battle this way and that way, but this is where God's kingdom is. God's kingdom is a quiet habitation.

And it will always remain a place of peace, a place of comfort, a place of security. This is where I want to be brothers and sisters when I hear the gospel.

Yes, the idea of dealing with these folks that are either Minneapolis members or serving over there in some fashion or another, yet they still come around the believers and the people of God's peace.

I think it seems like if both of them do that, their numbers are well above what we have with stereotypes, that it's incorrect to bring them back to God's peace. I've had to put the angels in contours that

It's not easy, but it seems like that's probably what the Bible says, that if you bring with God's gifts, you're partaking in their spirit, so that's probably a dangerous place to be, bringing these folks.

A few different thoughts here. We'll see what comes out. First, I want to say that I appreciated being here. This presentation, I was able to catch bits and pieces of it as I dealt with the kids there, but it seemed so nice and answered to the way that I believe.

I also have been able to watch, I feel like somewhat from the sidelines as the board has wondered how to deal with these matters at hand. It's been so enriching to my own life of faith to see the love

That they have shown in those discussions and as they've tried to lovingly take care of the congregation here. I also thought here as these situations have unfolded with the meeting this evening,

I've wondered what this means for God's congregation. I've had the experience to go and meet new believers, believers that I've never known prior. I flew out to Spokane and somewhat unfamiliar around Longview, somewhat unfamiliar with that congregation. I stayed at a home there and there was

So amazing to me that I could spend a weekend in someone's home that I do not know and feel so comfortable. And how was that? It was that we shared the same spirit. It was felt not once that I had to even confess my own faith. It was the same. And that was felt, and those discussions were free and open.

In that, I've had this type of an experience where people have asked me, you know, how do I see these matters have taken place at the Paratheno meeting? And most times I've had to confess my faith as well, and it's been so...

For me to be able to be in those conversations when other believers have asked me that type of a question, I would say at first, not knowing the purpose of the question, my heart skips a beat, but as I share and they share the way they believe, it feels so comfortable. So, one other thought that I had here was this thought that when

At the top of that question of how do you see these matters and how do you believe these to be the questions surrounding the annual meeting, I also thought of it this way, that where do you turn to for instruction? And I think that's an important question for us all to consider, not only myself, that where do I turn to?

Not having the clearest of understanding on many of these matters, I've had to turn to the Lutheran congregation and ask those who I'm trialing on the journey with how they see these matters. And sometimes I've had it where I've asked these kind of questions and as soon as someone shares

While they see these things, I know it's correct and I know it's true. My spirit answers with those. Even though I didn't know the answers to those questions right away, when I heard the words speak on them, it felt so warm and so spiritual.

So, when we think of that, we have to understand that we are children in God's Kingdom, and we are not all-knowing, and we all need continual instruction wherever we turn to for that instruction.

I know I've felt so secure just looking around here at the bench of the believers that are gathered here. It's such a blessing to have this

A group of believers who are so willing to take care of me and keep me on that path to heaven. So I put my trust there that this congregation, this mother, would continually provide the instruction, the care, and the nurture that I need. And if you begin to mistrust

My mother began to have a tense. My mother, that prayer, search me, oh God, and know my heart comes to mind, that you would pray that God would see into your heart and you would reveal unto your matters that you need to take care of. This morning we had a Sunday school lesson on Cain and Abel.

And my thoughts have gone to that lesson many times this afternoon and morning around how that sacrifice that Cain and Abel gave to God were both from man's day and I believe good sacrifices. They were probably the best of the best from man's view.

Yet God, the Son to the heart, would be accepting one and not the other. And isn't that the case even today that we can put on

God knows, God sees, and God accepts those who simply put their faith and trust in Him.

And we only know that the Triune God is not the Father, not the Son, but God the Holy Spirit, and it occurs that Holy Spirit dwells in this congregation. I myself know that I struggle every day with sin and temptation, that my prayer is that one day I can make it to heaven.

I want your care, can you guys forgive me?

Hi, Robert here. I like to, there's a song we sang when we were young, it's, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. So that's, that's my confession there.

As far as forgiveness or the audible gospel or whatever the question was proposed earlier, I've always believed and I still believe that when somebody offers or the speaker offers the gospel to, maybe they use the words, and even now tonight or this morning or this afternoon,

You can believe all sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood. I believe it's a powerful message and I believe it's true. That's my thoughts on that. And then 1 John chapter 4 verse 15.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God. I believe that too. As far as it seems the general message is if you're a member of Minneapolis or Wolf Lake,

Then by definition, you're now in heresy. From Summer Service's vote, like on a personal level, I have family there and I don't hold them as unbelievers. So if that casts me out by

Another man's definition. I accept that. They have that freedom of religion, if you will, here in America. Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

Maybe I'm getting a little forgetful about the original question ones, but I think this is something that can be hard for me on and off.

And I forget what the original thing is, but if somebody comes and puts down their video, then there's a possibility that it's really interesting. So, you know, they say that's not going to happen. I have two siblings who are not believing, and one of them still goes to church,

I know that she still believes that, she thinks that, yes. I mean, in all these things, I follow Christ, I have a Christ in my heart. I believe that God is a cross when I sin. Essentially, all of what I do is some Christianity in the world, okay? And

That can be confusing to me, but I don't think I have to meditate or focus on the fact that the Bible talks about one human and we are referred to as a flock. So I think even if somebody does strive to have that faith, if they feel that corrective or simple message,

And they wanted to leave. I believe that God will leave them here, because we are meant... I mean, there's a reason that he talks about it as us as a flock, because we need to track together. And so, I think that we have seen that manifested in the world with believers that have come from all over the world. And so,

And I think that there is just, there's something different that, we're different than the rest of Christianity. And I think it's because we have the Holy Spirit. And I think that that,

You know, that's just the difference between things that can be confusing, like looking at, for me, looking at it like, okay, I'll push it in, and it's not going to do that, or it's not going to do that. So what is that? And to me, anyways, that can take me down a little bit of a rabbit hole. But I just think, holy, that is just, that is the point here, and that doing all those

Confusing things, or confusing autonomy, anyway, is very simple. And I think that helps, if you trust and believe that that helps navigate these times, even though, if I'm being completely honest, a lot of these times, they don't feel good to me. And I can feel kind of like,

I don't know. Is this right? Is this wrong? I have to trust that it is, but that doesn't mean that it's that easy for me. Of course, I have loved ones in both those congregations, and I haven't necessarily at this juncture had conversations that

Yes. And so I've been going forward.

I'm trying to trust and hope that all things will be revealed in due time and that I could lean on the congregation and turn to God's word and that we will help and I do hope that it is the doings to tread. I have all sins forgiven.

Thank you very much for attending. It was a pleasure to be here. Can you put a slide on the school trips? That was a good one. I built a film

I thank the Holy Spirit. I have more things in my head. Who is the one who has helped and achieved different things and has turned to

My actions. I will carry you around me, leaving the hall and all. I will carry you.

And that's what I do for a husband. How to spare a husband. They have all the wishes. And I want to respond to their wishes. And, and,

A church full of life, love, and help between care for others, not to care only for others. A peaceful heart made sharing tasks with you and your friends.

You guys can go ahead and do that. Stop seeing difficulties. Difficulties make life easier. So here are chapters from New Testament Gospels. So there was a hand over here.

That's where it was, wasn't it? Some other area down there, no? Oh my god.

I just had some thoughts when Tracy was talking. I feel like I went through similar struggles with some of my family and for many years.

I've got to try to help them. And one elderly woman at some point asked me if I should do God's work. I hadn't thought about it that way. I just thought, you're a wonderful woman, you should try to help each other. But when it was brought to me in that way, it took a big burden off my shoulders.

It's not in my hands, but God knows the hearts. And now I longingly remember them in prayer. Just wanted to encourage you, Tracy, not let this concern that you have for friends or family to go to your joy of believing. Did you hear the gospel?

Eric. As we go through this time, it's going to be a time of discussion, especially in those families that are divided, and also for each of us. I remember as a young boy, I was only a young lad at the time of the last heresy,

During those years after the heresy, there was reason for a lot of different discussion around doctrinal topics and so on. And God will reveal what needs to be revealed in the days to come. I can firmly believe that.

I think what's so important about each of us is that each one of us is nervous. We believe in people's sin away, and God will take care of us in that sense. The questions that are being raised and discussed, I also trust that the Holy Spirit is an admirable reveal for each one of us in due time.

When it's necessary and when it's timely. This question of preaching the gospel has so many facets to it. That was the mission command, as we heard. The mission command to the disciples is to go and preach to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

So that's one level, but there's also so many, it's not as nuanced, it's not as nuanced as you're used to that word, but there's so many layers and levels of the work.

If you think of preaching the gospel in general, that's one thing, but it's preaching the gospel to a brother or sister in the faith. If you think of the miniature gospel, preaching the forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name on the Bible, that can be used in a different context. So I think it's important that the understanding of how those portions of scriptures are used and used in an accurate way.

During these times of battle, in most parts of scriptures that have been lifted and used inappropriately without full context, and I think that's one of them,

It is our command, but it is also a God-given gift to the Holy Spirit that we would be given the power to forgive sins. The question was posed at one point, and who but God alone has power to forgive sins? That was asked to Jesus. So that's not new, but

When Jesus breathed on his own and gave him the power to forgive sins, that is a responsibility that is given by God. So it's God's forgiveness, it's God's Spirit that allows that. The same words are used in many churches. Believe your sins are forgiven in Jesus' name, in Christ's blood. But when the Holy Spirit doesn't live in them, it's just simply words.

The difference between God's commitment that has been given the power of the Holy Spirit and other groups who use similar words in similar contexts. Jesus told His disciples about His lambs and His sheep, and they hear His voice. God's children hear the voice of His children.

But I was thinking about the time in the book of Acts when we heard this accusation about that we must go and we have to go and so on and so forth. We forget that it is God who sends. In the 16th chapter of the book of Acts, I'll read a few verses where it says, And so the churches established in the faith and increased in number daily,

And now when they had gone, speaking about, we almost have to read the whole 16th chapter, but I don't want to do that because it would take so long. I'll just begin reading from that point. Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit suffered them not. And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night, and there stood a man in Macedonia praying and saying, Come over into Macedonia and help us.

And after he had seen the vision, he immediately endeavored to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Therefore, loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; and from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. So, he goes on to explain how the Spirit was directing that way. The disciples all would have liked to have gone to these other areas.

But the Spirit forbade them from going. So I would be hesitant to say that it is my duty or my responsibility, my duty to go here or go there. But I think we need to humbly accept that God calls and God also sends through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Not to become trapped in that sort of teaching that we have to do this or we have to do that, because who of us knows God's ways? God's ways are so high above all the ways of the soul. So I think these questions of which have been asked today, they tend to again bring up more confusion.

And they don't edify. And when we read from God's Word this past week, in the part about heresy, God's Word is very clear, that we would admonish a heretic once, twice, three times, whatever the number was, and then flee from it.

I think that's what we're facing, and I hate to say that in a way that I would offend him, but yet we can see when these questions continue to come, it starts to create question and doubt. Tracy mentioned that in those thoughts, all of us care. How do we, are we so perfect in these things, and how will we know all of those things that we need to know beforehand?

How will we answer them? How will we answer this question? How will we answer that question? But I think for this reason, Jesus told his disciples that when they were brought before the magistrates and pleaded before the governors, they both thought what we might say during that time, that the Holy Spirit would speak

And they will bring those things to memory that you need to know and understand. So, I don't want to get, again, go down this discussion that you just said, this question about what you gave us, this question of where it's hidden. Those things have been discussed. They have been clearly discussed.

What does the Bible say about those who have heard with their ears, but they have not heard or believed? God has an openness to them. Faith is God's gift, as we see in that bullet point, and repentance is God's gift. If God opens the heart to repentance, no man can shut that.

And if God closes that, no man can open it. So it's God's grace through and through from the beginning to the end. And I would hope that if there are these kinds of questions that come in the end, we can visit about them, even in smaller circles. But continuing to bring these things before the congregation, it only adds

Confusion, and I think questions and doubts to the simple satellite. But we've seen how the Spirit has moved and led us to this point. We accept that this is where we are, God's protection and comfort, and then trust that it will also, in the days, in the weeks, months, and years ahead, take care of this congregation. I want to stifle our order.

Thank you. Cut.

God's kingdom has always been a kingdom of grace and forgiveness. It was when we were little kids. It's been the same through these recent years of spiritual strife. And it remains to be yet the same.

We heard a presentation this morning and we heard again how God's kingdom is a kingdom where the message of forgiveness of sins is preached to all who would like to believe. God's kingdom is a place where sinners are cared for.

It's a place from which sounds out a call to those who have never known a gracious God to come. It also is a place that sounds out a call for those who have once known God's grace to return. Any obstacles which we may see

In the path of repentance, each one of us can now our own. Does not make it to be that God's kingdom does not yet remain to be a place of forgiveness for the troubled sinner.

When we consider this matter of the preaching of the gospel, specifically the preaching of forgiveness of sins, there's two matters that are central in that preaching. And it is not just in the mechanics.

The oration of the gospel, but it is essential that this message, for it to have power, would be preached from one who has in themselves dwelling the Holy Spirit.

In Thessalonians it says, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in Holy Ghost, and in much assurance. All these go together. There is power and there is much assurance. But it's also important.

For there be power and for there be much assurance that it be preached by the authority of the Holy Spirit. Without that, it becomes mechanical repetition. It feels in some of this discussion where we approach a question of Esau, and it's certainly something that goes far beyond

My understanding. But in Genesis it says, And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O father. And Esau lifted up his voice.

Each one of us, when we consider that place, we no doubt, our heart weeps for Esau and others in that condition. But the question of Esau is not the question of the injustice of God or the unfairness of this kingdom.

Esau was conditioned. Though he had known and been granted the grace of a believing home, he departed after other ways. And now he had reached a point where he understood he was separated out and no longer accepted

Because he had rejected the blessing. He had this tearful cry that passed all but one. Bless me, my father. Bless me, even me also, oh my father. God's kingdom doesn't have multiple blessings. The saving message

From the heart of the Heavenly Father come these alms through one kingdom. If we begin to sympathize with Esau here and those obstacles that were in his path, whatever they were,

These matters go far beyond my understanding, but if we begin to sympathize with [Esau] in that way, that we begin to find fault and blame in God's kingdom, which is made up of poor and sinful members doing His work. We put ourselves in a dangerous place. Let us never

Those who have been entrusted with the work, not to lift them with such a critical eye as blaming them for our own experience.

We don't do this at all to lift them up into a different, a higher place, but we just simply, having understood, if we are able to receive the grace which we ourselves have been able to be given, then God also is able to remove those faults that we see from our own eyes and our brothers and sisters.

God's kingdom simply remains, truly remains, to be a home where the gospel is preached to all who wish to believe. Can I have my sincerities? I will have my sincerities.

I don't want to cut the discussion short, but it's getting late in the afternoon and I feel we could contend with what has been said as well.

I don't know that yet. And the discussion ended without this being said by my part. This is back to 23 May this morning, or later today.

And then also hearing Robert speak earlier. That's where you find yourself. Zach, you have been reminded in the last few years to flee from Minneapolis.

To come to Rockford, to come to Elk River, to come to the container of Lord Haasala. You have come once in a while. You came in the spirit. You came in the spirit. You know, for anyone, the decision of the spirit has never been made. Do you disagree with that?

Robert, you have also disagreed with the Holy Spirit here today in stating that your confession that you accept those in the atmosphere as believing. That isn't what the Spirit just said today. It's not what we talked about. It's dependent. It's not comfortable meaning to be here without saying this.

[passage not intelligible to the transcriber]

What has brought me great comfort over these years is that I have believed as children in my daily life and career.

Depend on your understanding to be successful and to support your family and all these simple things, but my reason doesn't work with David. I cannot agree with him for my faithfulness to his faith. And all these questions about

What would happen in that situation? What should we do? I don't know. I just know what I believe today. Today I believe that the ice can never be cured. We believe day by day and not for tomorrow. It's going to be great.

Their bullet point keeps coming to mind that there's only one kingdom, God. Do you really feel that that kingdom is here? If you don't, where does that be?

When we say that, it leaves you impaired of seeing in my view. I hear you in many of the speeches that have been made. But I need the care of the primary agent as well, and I ask that you forgive my sins. I ask that you forgive my sins.

You're like me. I have a lot to say about you. I think my thoughts just go away. There I am. These years there's been a lot of talk about how they brought in Finland.

My experience that I've completed over the nine years, I believe that we believe exactly the same way as my first group. I was visiting with a certain member from Minneapolis last summer.

During that visit, I started having a lot of doubts. It seemed as if there was a reason all these matters were wrong. And he was totally leading me down that path, and I thought about this, I thought about this. I couldn't answer any of those things that he was thinking.

We don't see eye to eye on these matters. I was always taught that it's a child by faith. We do not need to understand all these matters. That is what is called faith.

If you understood all these narratives, you would not be afraid. This is the place to be. You are sincere in this.

Would there be any other comments? Otherwise I'll ask Alan to give closing comments and a closing prayer.

I guess my thoughts are a little bit scared, but I figured I'd say something since my name came up again. Very great question of what was it, where, where am I? So as far as personally, I guess I would go back to this simple message that Jesus had died for our sins and that by believing in that, we'll be saved.

To me, that's what it comes down to. Those are the two Bible verses that come to mind that go back to everyone so well. The most familiar, For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Then in Acts, and I could read an entire image, a couple of verses,

And it says, Acts 16, that he brought them out and said, sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household. And then also in Romans 10, in a couple of verses, it says, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For if the heart of one believes and is justified, and if the mouth of one confesses and is saved, then the scripture says, everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches upon all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

So these clear and simple verses from the Bible is comforting to me that if I believe that Christ died for my sins, I believe that gospel message was preached, then I'll be saved. So I guess that's kind of the answer to the question of where I am.

Then I guess regarding, I think someone mentioned something about the U.C. has convinced here or whatever. Yeah, I think there are believers here. There are people here who believe that message. And then I also believe there are people in Minneapolis who believe that message.

So just like it says, if you believe that, you will be saved. So that's kind of where I am. Also, can I believe that message again today? You've all since forgiven in Jesus' name, blood. So is this one of those situations where the gospel can't be preached? So I've asked, can I have my sins forgiven? But is it not going to be preached? You can believe your sins forgiven in Jesus' name and precious blood.

That's the message that I want to live by is forgiveness of sins and faith in Christ. Zach, I'm sorry to say that we do not believe the same. So you say you don't believe the message of those Bible verses that I read? Zach, I believe those words are in the Bible for our sake, yes.

Yeah, and so I believe that, and that's what it says. I believe that, but we'll see. I guess we could maybe continue this discussion later, but that's how I believe. I don't think we can continue this discussion any further than here. I'm sorry. I guess we could continue. I'm not discussing it anymore.

I guess my question is that if I believe this and the Bible says that if I believe this and I will be saved, how is that not the truth? The Bible says it right here in clear language, but now you're saying that that's not how it is, whoever does it is correct. So I think let's open it back next year to what the Bible says and what it's saying here. This meeting is for the Rockford congregation members and I feel that you are not in unity.

I feel you came here to challenge what has been taught. We've heard it for seven years. These matters have been gone round and round and round. We will never reach agreement. Our souls don't answer.

Zach and [Robert]. I just want to say praise. Thank God that you all rebuilt into your vehicles. I've been down that rabbit hole. I've been caught up in that confusion. I can only thank God.

But if there's a relationship that our God's keeping us, then he's here. But speech after speech after speech, it made my heart rejoice, but when you and Robert spoke, all I could say is pray.

I pray that God will have grace and mercy on you. Continue to come to God's house. Nobody kicks anybody out of God's kingdom. The discussion here was acknowledging that we had a heresy. It was final and formal at the LLC summer services.

If you continue to battle that, you do not see matters clearly. And we have never greeted heretics. We do not greet heretics. We can go round and round and round and read scripture and talk about how we forgive, who we should forgive. We're tired. We've gone over this for many, many years.

But continue to seek out advice. But number one, pray to God that he will show and reveal it to you personally. Because I don't hear it. My spirit does not say amen. And I also have my, my willingness, my tiredness,

Thanks be given in Jesus name, Precious Father. Thank you, Mr. Herrala. I want you to have a free word of prayer.

The thought that occurred to me in hearing this speech a few minutes ago was, what is missing is certainly the word of confession in Christ, but what is missing is our confession in faith when we hear the Apostles' Creed, the third article of the Creed, which says, I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Christian Church, the community of saints, the resurrection of saints.

Give us the sins in life everlasting. This is what we have seen with those who could stray this way. They have lost sight of God's kingdom and the meaning of the third article of the Apostles' Creed. That's why there's no difference between them and all the world Lutheran churches around us. But here is where, preciously today, we have the Holy Spirit of one kingdom.

May God bless you.